Fox "News" is panning the speech. First Charles Krauthammer, then Bill O'Reilly, then "best analysis anywhere", Karl Rove.

Who could have forseen it?

obama laid a big stinky bush turd tonight. He is a sham and deserves to have his progressive base desert him.

Not another dime, not another lifted finger - NEVER vote for the current batch of corporate dems again.

Oh - I am not the kiddy star you all hate, I just happen to be a big brett favre/viking fan named barney.

MSNBC lukewarm on speech. (No, that's not a hope that Luke Russert shows up!)

At CNN there are about 15 people (no exaggeration) on their set. More voices apparently better able to help viewers fall asleep?

Obama and his minions should be ashamed...fuckin' ashamed.

I know they're not...but damn...I feel used.

Purple Barney @2

obama laid a big stinky bush turd tonight. He is a sham and deserves to have his progressive base desert him.

Not another dime, not another lifted finger - NEVER vote for the current batch of corporate dems again.

Word brutha'....word...

We was taken like a mark in a con job...

The war machine put into action by the New World Order Illuminati parasites Dick Cheney,dumbshit puppet GW Bush, and his treasonous lying anti-enviro bushit administration of killers continues with their new man Obama. Do I stand alone to be the only patriotic American to fcking see this shit out in action.

Obama is there because he's the face person who mainly represents the multi-national bankers, oil-coal barons, and of course the military contractors who have run this corporation know as the United States for decades. They have had this complete control since 1934 when the President let these bastard take over the US money system known as the Federal Reserve.

NOT a government entity, THE FED Bank is no more federal than the credit card named Federal Express and IS NOT subject to government review processes or held accountable to anyone as far as I can tell outside laws governing a corporation. "The Fed" are a group of mainly secretive UNKNOWN MULTI-NATIONAL BANKERS.

The SUPER RICH people who run the US have gotten richer since 9-11 while most all other classes have become POORER. THE ILLUMINATI are not in the tabloids of THEIR U.S. CORPORATE MASS MEDIA. They are not on the cover of people magazine BUT THEY OWN YOUR ACE and THEY decide who lives and who dies. Remember that no matter how many times the 1st lady publically praises U.S. men and women sent to fight their wars.

The false flag attack on 9-11 that caused 3 World Trade Tower buildings to collapse in under 10 seconds as well as whatever hit the Pentagon since all 80 something video films were immediately confiscated lead us into these wars.

3000 people in World Trade North and South Towers could not escape the planned agenda of white Alquida. Now more American will be sent to bloody war for control of oil fields, and control of the heroin trade in a country where their presence is not welcome.

Not even fighting against a standing army, the death and destruction waged against a mainly civilian population the wars of lies continue
as the billions and billions of dollars are thrown away against a declared enemy created by the CIA in the 1980's.

The real world CANCER is right here in the God ole USA.

LOSER FCKING LEADERS.

t by planes killing 3000 Americans(www.ae911truth.org can explain the controlled ) continues with their leftover CIA bad guys a

Oh and by 2011 we'll be set to leave Afghanistan...what bullshit.

Didn't Nixon promise the same about Vietnam in '68 ?
We left Vietnam in shame 7 years later...

Fuck you Obama...

brad - all the folks on your tv are just there to "catapult the propaganda".

And it works - some morons will still proclaim that obama is giving us "change we can believe in" - NOT!

The increased U.S. presence in bananastan is gonna make Americans safer.. Sorta like clean fcking coal.

The message to kids these days is obvious. The answer to your conflict is a bullet to your enemy. I have seen almost every walk of life on US TV show as the target of death and murder with some exception.

Why no TV shows for military defense contractors being capped for selling bombs dropped on civilians targets in wars based on lies?They are getting rich off bombs and war toys?

How bout some Illuminati bank heads who got all their money back after their preditory lending practices caused the housing and financial industry to crash?

How bout a CSI Miami about an coal baron responsible for blowing the tops off the Appalachian Mountains because he doesn't have enough billion in a Swiss bank account tripping and falling off a cliff?

Ya know there isn't enough death on corporate television and in the movie theaters so timed with the increase of American troops sent to fight the Bush-Obama Wars we need to have some shows about the American ruling class taking 1 for their country.

Since you guys are taking care of the "beat him up" thing for the moment, let me toss in one thought somewhat to the contrary.

Whether Obama's promise of beginning withdrawal in July of 2011 happens or not (as BlueHawk obviously doubts), the fact that he set that date *before* his 2012 re-election campaign is noteworthy. Would have been much easier (and safer) to set that for the year after the 2012 campaign. But he didn't. I think he deserves some credit there, because if he fails to meet that deadline, it'll likely cost him the election all on its own. If he succeeds in meeting the deadline, and Afghanistan blows up in the process, that will also cost him the election.

So a small point of credit there seems to be due, on that one anyway, as I see it. He seems to be holding his own feet to a very hot fire, in which failure will come at a very expensive political cost. He didn't need to do that. But he did. FWIW.

I don't particularly care to be in the position of defending Obama, but...

Purple Barney @ 2 said:

He is a sham and deserves to have his progressive base desert him. ... NEVER vote for the current batch of corporate dems again.

BlueHawk @ 6 said:

We was taken like a mark in a con job...

Why should his "base desert him"? Why were you "taken like a mark in a con job"?

'Winning in Afghanistan' or 'finishing the job' was exactly what Obama ran on. If you voted for him, you weren't "taken like a mark". You heard his position, and you voted your approval for it. If you consider yourself his "base", then you knew almost precisely what he was going to do here.

So, why the surprise? Sumpin' smells much funny about Purple Barney's comments frankly, but as to BlueHawk, who I have confidence in, if this isn't what you wanted, why did you vote for him? (On the presumption that you did.) We've got nothing new here. If anything, it's a positive from what he ran on, in that he's now given a hard exit date.

(Disclaimer: I didn't vote for him, for a number of reasons, but most specifically due to the things he said or did during the campaign that I didn't support. If you didn't support such an escalation in Afghanistan, why would one vote for him, or why be surprised when he did what he announced tonight??)

Brad -

FWIW...unfortunately, not much. A point, to be sure. Just not worth much. But appreciate a contrary point and the attempt to light a candle rather than curse all this FUCKING DARKNESS!!

I voted for Nader in 96 and 00. Mainstream democrats gave me shit for 4 years of Bush, and I bought into the "we can't have another 4 years of Bush" so I voted for Kerry. Does anyone believe that Kerry would have done differently than Obama is doing now? Not bloody likely (although PERHAPS, because he did actually serve, unlike the chickenshits in the Bush administration and their chickenhawk cheerleaders in the right wing media). So fuck all those Democrats.

Yeah, I got suckered this time too, by the HOPE that a darker-skinned, educated man might bring a different and better perspective.

Kucinich. Nader. SOMEBODY else has my vote in 2012. I'm going back to my GREEN PARTY roots, and I'm running against these assholes for SOMETHING, even if it's just City Council of my rinkydink hick town. That's what we all need to do.

Mr. President, you can officially kiss my ass.

SR

Progressives should all start sending testosterone patches to the White House. Just write on the envelope: Slap this on and bring them home NOW.

Sould Rebel @ 13:

Yeah, I got suckered this time too, by the HOPE that a darker-skinned, educated man might bring a different and better perspective.

Then you suckered youself. He told you what he was gonna do. Meantime, you think John McCain would have announced a hard date for an exit tonight? Not on your life.

I'm running against these assholes for SOMETHING, even if it's just City Council of my rinkydink hick town. That's what we all need to do.

No dispute there. Let me know where I need to rig the voting machines for ya.

Feingold statement:

Brad...you know and I know Obama could care less about "the war on terror"; Obama has been brought into the sham. He's selling shit now like a televangelist.
The Military Industrial/ Corporate/Banking/Oil elite made a ton of loot tonight...on the backs of us...again.

Afghanistan is about the god damn pipeline

Brad, you're absolutely right. I suckered myself, which is part of why I am so goddamned pissed right now. My more leftist friends, members of the Socialist Worker's Party and the Green Party, and other various affiliations, told me where he stood - "you do realize that he's a centrist corporatist, don't you?" And I did, but I did so want to believe we could have some real change - that's what was sold to us, that's where we were suckered (or suckered ourselves, yes) - those powerful words that were the keystones of the Obama campaign: HOPE and CHANGE. They masked they truth because I was willing to let them.

There's a saying we have up here in Washington...Fool me once, shame on you...won't get fooled again. Or sumpin' like that.

Soul Rebel @ 18:

I did so want to believe we could have some real change - that's what was sold to us, that's where we were suckered (or suckered ourselves, yes)

Well you (and millions of others) may have suckered yourself, but in the meantime, I recall him promising "change". Well, believe it or not, you're getting it. "Real" change? I don't know if I remember that precisely being promised, but you are getting change from Bush. Enough? Not by a long shot. But it's change. And, if I had a gun to my head, and two choices: 1) Obama 2) Bush/Cheney/McCain, I'd take the first then, and I'd take it now. FWIW.

There's plenty to complain about re: Obama. I do it every day. But that anyone's surprised, doesn't make a whole lotta sense, but for that whole self-delusion thing. In the meantime, you're getting change. Just look at the EPA and other agencies. On the big ticket items, it's closer to Bush than any of us like, but again, would McCain have promised a beginning of withdrawal in July 2011? Ever? Not bloody likely.

What Brad is saying is that more pleasantly completely unacceptable is better than nothing... but completely unacceptable is still completely unacceptable, even when it's extremely pleasant.

We should be in the streets in our millions. We should be dragging all of them, physically, out of their offices.

Umm...did ANY of you pay attention during the campaign? He said he would do this, and he's doing it. Do you people ever think about ANYTHING? Just as dumb as the contards.

I got a comment and some questions. Seem's ol Phil is somewhat confused.

First the comment...
BlueHawk said on 12/1/2009 @ 6:19 pm PT...

We was taken like a mark in a con job...

-=-=-

I would have to say BlueHawk, it's more like we were taken like a "sub-routine" in a "cron job"

meaning... Corrupt agenda has been pre scripted, and uses timing itself as a weapon.

Anyway, on to my question. I hate to have to ask questions as usually I can find the answer myself. But either I can't pay attention, or I just don't get it. Maybe I am just a dumb shit, I dunno..

Actually it'll be questions....

First the easier one. A simple math question. I keep hearing the year 2017 . With this recent extra troops being sent to Afganistan, I hear
"plans withdrawal in 2011" according to Rawstory. But I keep seeing this 2017 number. So what's with the extra 5 years? Or 3 + 5 = 8

Here's one example..
Google Cached Yahoo Story

vs.

Current Yahoo Story

I see a slew of other numbers 2010, 2011.
Anyway it's a basic math problem I have here.

Next up Global Warming / ClimateGate / Copenhagen / DemocracyNow (nov 30th)/ Alex Jones

The general feeling I am getting here is. Feel free to straighten me out, cause like I said, I am confused.

A. Global Warming was a fraud (proven by the hacked/cracked/stolen/whatever emails)

B. Not only a was it a fraud, it was a plan by the UN to end run our nations sovereignty, and impose hundreds of thousands of new carbon taxes, carbon credits and all to be paid to certain corporations.
B. (1) Or alternatively as the Ticker-Guy say's it..

"The problem isn't the emails.
It's the program source code, comments, and data files."

C. Were the Three guests on Democracynow "Nov 30th" saying we should oppose Copenhagen or WTO?

Both? hell. I am so lost.

Isn't World Trade and Copenhagen basically the same thing? --- e.g. A new world order, or Global tax for every man woman an child on Earth?

D. Is there a UN war plan to fight American Citizens? T / F = ?

Help a guy out here since it's an open thread. Basically I have shut up about the Green Report's cause I DON'T KNOW the truth! And I have no clue what the hell is up with this stuff. Where usually I can just comment on an issue (for example electronic vote tabulation devices) without even having to look up anything in the article at all cause I've already know the information and ALL such schemes will fall back under my knowledge. e.g. You can't bullshit a tech. But it seems perhaps scientists or universities have some malicious players. I found that out first hand with that recent piece of shit from MIT for their "encrypted voting machine garbage."

I am thinking currently along the lines of...

WTO is evil / bad (ala Seattle Police Riots, people don't take to the streets for just no reason.)

Global Warming is fraud to crush what's left of the USA

All of this is expedited, because our "officials" have broken their oaths, and know we can't get them out via voting in our elections, because both the media controls our candidate choices, and where they can't control candidates, the electronic voting machines roll out their bi-anal fucking treasonous glitches.

Can't protest in the street without becoming a homegrown terrorist.

Anyway... Help a guy out. I am very confused, but if our government needs to go the way of 1776, I want ZERO fucking confusion about it.

I. Listen.

You are right. No arguments.

I. Didn't. Listen.

...but I'm not as dumb as the contards.

From Michael Moore's homepage:

War President
Obama: 30,000 more troops to Afghanistan

Obama: "We Did Not Ask for This Fight"
Bush: "We Did Not Seek This Conflict"
Obama: "New Attacks are Being Plotted as I Speak"
Bush: "At This Moment ... Terrorists are Planning New Attacks"
Obama: "We Have No Interest in Occupying Your Country"
Bush: "I Wouldn't Be Happy if I Were Occupied Either"
Obama: "Our Cause is Just, Our Resolve Unwavering"
Bush: "Our Cause is Just, Our Coalition [is] Determined"
Obama: "This Is No Idle Danger, No Hypothetical Threat"
Bush: "The Enemies of Freedom Are Not Idle"

Hoo boy, that's fucked up.

Phil - Those who would fool you into believing that actual science showing undeniable global warming is a scam for a New World Order are, in fact, scamming you (and with the email hacks recently, they've kicked their scam into full bullshit gear).

Here's a nice, simple website for folks like yourself (and myself, even!) to answer to the nonsense you're hearing out there:
http://skepticalscience.com

As to the 2017 number you say you're hearing, re: Afghanistan, no clue what that refers to, but I'll try to go poke around. I suspect that if 2011 is the start date for beginning withdrawal, 2017 may be the end date for full withdrawal, but that's just a guess.

I.Listen @21....

Actually I did listen during Obama's campaign. Frankly I can't recalling hearing Obama promising a surge in Afghanistan...If he did then my bad.

Obama did however promise "change" yada yada yada...I ask you what's changed ?

FISA=no change

Healthcare=He's in the process of selling out.

Iraq=We'll see...so far no friggin' change.

No lobbysists in his administration= What a whopper.

Holding the Banks and Wall Street accountable= That's a laugher.

Yeah I listened...And I've surmised that from last year to this year Obama is full of shit.

At every turn Obama has wilted to corporate interests...just like every other President since Reagan...Obama is no change from them.

Change we can believe in my ass...

Soul Rebel @23

Damn!
Obama is even using W Bush's playbook...

BlueHawk - Man, I hate being in the position of defending Obama here. But yeesh...

Actually I did listen during Obama's campaign. Frankly I can't recalling hearing Obama promising a surge in Afghanistan...If he did then my bad.

Yup. Your bad. (And ya know, I love ya, but your bad). He didn't promise "a surge", but he did promise, over and over again "to finish the job in Afghanistan" and said, to much (hypocritical) criticism from the Right, that he'd be even more aggressive in Pakistan. (The criticism was hypocritical, because while they were blasting him for announcing his willingness to attack Pak. unilaterally, they were doing the exact same thing). Here's a link to a bit of Obama's campaign rhetoric on all of the above.

FISA=no change

Same position he had during campaign, when voted in favor of giving the telcos immunity.

Healthcare=He's in the process of selling out.

He never promised anything different than what we're likely to get. And what we're likely to get (as much of joke as I think it is), is a seachange that Pres after Pres for the last century has been unable to do. It'll be not nearly enough, but will stand an unprecedented chance of then being able to be fixed.

Iraq=We'll see...so far no friggin' change.

Same status quo for now. But promised the withdrawal that Bush wouldn't (and fought against). By 2011, as I recall. We'll see if it happens.

No lobbysists in his administration= What a whopper.

Yup. (Though, for the record, did he actually say "no lobbyists"? Or just sorta give that indication? Can't remember. Though starting to get them off the advisory boards, as pointed out a few days ago, is at least a "small step" in the right direction. And more than you'd have gotten from McCain for certain. FWIW.)

Holding the Banks and Wall Street accountable= That's a laugher.

When did he promise that?! I might have voted for him had I heard him do so!

At every turn Obama has wilted to corporate interests...just like every other President since Reagan...Obama is no change from them.

Well, not entirely (again, see what's being done below the radar and EPA and many other federal agencies) but yup, I take your point. And that's pretty much exactly why I didn't vote for him. But that was all damned clear before the election to all but those who didn't want to see it. Or saw it, but have since tried to forget.

It's too late tonight, but I've got a list at least twice as long as yours of things where he has actually failed, versus the things we knew he wasn't likely to do in the first place --- so long as we were paying attention

http://skepticalscience.com/

I get that point of view. It's not addressing some of my concerns.

How about this. I saw some video (Sorry I forget which video) where they were talking about how countries to participate in the Copenhagen thing were to put up a starting $10 billion. And countries who can't afford it won't have to. Immediately it came to my mind when I heard that, my thoughts were....

The US already in the category of "can't afford it" . I mean what are we going to do PRINT 10 Billion, and then more over the years? What companies does this money go to specifically? How is this possible when mathematically we are not going to last 5 more years of this already existing budget bullshit.

Then I get snippets like this.

"Industrialized countries have a dual obligation under the Treaty, representing their overall responsibility for keeping the world within limits of the global carbon budget and ensuring that adaption to the impacts of climate change is possible for the most vulnerable."

Or this.

Here is precisely how this Copenhagen Climate Treaty will adversely affect you:

Double digit inflation as a result of all goods and materials becoming much more expensive
Raise the deficit through increased borrowing by our Treasury
Transfer economic growth and profits from the United States to lesser-prepared countries
Delay the recovery of the United States, which will affect EVERY SEGMENT of our society
Increased U. S. manufacturing job loss through new cap and trade laws
Be even more in debt to communist China
Increase your state and federal taxes
Regulation of personal spending on energy by law and high prices
Move away from the U.S. Dollar to a One-World currency
Increased costs per gallon of gas

I am sorry, but green or no green, this isn't acceptable. This is so criminal, that Tiger Woods ought to just say, "screw you" to the cops! I mean if officials are not going to obey the law, then neither should anyone else, why should we, they are a bunch of liars! It's so bad I can't even tell the truth!

I am sure there will be thousands of more nanny laws further eroding our already decimated up constitution. And what of the monetary system? No more dollar?! I think more people will die from that right there than from ICE melting. (I don't deny ICE is melting, the TRUTH of the ACTUAL EXACT cause, is what I can not validate.)

I am not convinced EITHER way.

But what I am HIGHLY CONCERNED about is if there's some dishonest agenda which has been brewing for a decade (and from those emails it appears to be there IS at least some dishonest agenda in play) and it has been pushing the big nations into certain policies, which have dictated control of monetary systems, water, and this unmeasurable bullshit called carbon credit which is only currently destroying the poor and middle class by taxing hundreds of thousands of things you can't even dream up.

I ain't paraphrasing this correct. It's pissing me off I can't say what I am trying to say, to dig for answers. I am not saying Global Warming isn't happening, but I am saying NOBODY can prove why, and until they can prove it we shouldn't be screwing with this entire topic, especially when the whole planet has monetary problems already.

The monetary system is going to blow up in 5 years or less. That's a mathematical fact. So, how will it be played? Covered up? Or will it be we all lose everything?

How do you really know CO2 is the cause?
People can't even explain chem trails, so why should I believe a damn thing about CO2?

Don't know why CO2 and global warming is on this thread (I didn't see the speech)
Copy of some of my comment on the Green Report thread:

1998 was not he hottest year on record. From what I've read, it was thought to be but that's because there was an error on some of NASA's dataset.

Steve McIntyre, of climateaudit.org, noticed a strange discontinuity in US temperature data, occurring around January 2000. McKintyre notified NASA who acknowledged the problem as an "oversight" that would be fixed in the next data refresh.

NASA corrected it but the media didn't report it or at least didn't report it widely.

The warmest year on US record is now 1934 not 1998.

See these links for further details:

Will the Real USHCN Data Set Please Stand Up?

1934 is the hottest year on record

He's not the Commander in Chief. He's not in charge of anything. He takes his orders and a software program plucks out pertinent phrases from a presidential speeches database, throws in a few let-me-be-clear's and a make-no-mistake or two, throws it up onto the teleprompter and he reads it.

Doesn't matter what he said or didn't say in his campaign. He was the only --- really slim --- chance out of our choices. So no one should feel badly about voting for him, for hoping, and we might be glad he put us out of our hopeful misery so quickly.

He stood up there tonight and sang the neocon anthem to the world. Loud and clear. He also mentioned that ineffective or corrupt public officials should be dealt with effectively. That was the one line with which I am in complete agreement.

I don't think one has to be a global warming denier to also see that the globalization guys plan to exploit it.

PS - I am not trying to pick a fight. I just really am not convinced humans can do squat about the problem.

Especially with my first hand experiences with the likes of POPMECH and MIT in regards to electronic voting. Have scientists been infested by the corruption? I know some have. Have the global warming scientists been manipulated, just like the rest of the fascist news? Isn't all this really just about global corporate control, and money?

I ain't the enemy here. I am just asking questions.

Agent 99,

everyone should feel badly for voting for him if they did. Everyone should blame themselves for thinking they have to depend on a man in D.C. to change policy or whatever instead of getting up off their fat asses and organizing and changing things themselves.

What kind of a system is it when people are so scared they think they have to vote for one person cause they're so scared of another Bush. A system which gives you 2 choices out of 5 other clones running for office while the real candidates for change, like Ron Paul Dennis Kucinich Ralph Nader are marginalized.

I can't really argue with you, Konstantin. I guess I should have said that as long as we won't get off our fat asses and physically remove these ineffective and corrupt officials, and fascist media, we only had the thin chance of Obama.

I do have to point out, though, that the president is the one who has to change the military policy. If you have been paying attention for the last ten days or so, it is crystal clear that the policy is being set inside a five-sided fortress. I'm not sure that you mean by "organizing" the kind of organizing that it would take. After all, the armies of dupes, the flash mobs of dupes, who helped sweep Obama into office thought that's what they were doing... and this is going to turn out to be what all organizers turn out to be doing until they/we get people in office who will die to set this right.

... or... of course... people in the streets who will die to set this right....

PS 2: In the future, I will try to keep out of the green discussions, as obviously I don't know what I am talking about. I admit that, I haven't a clue on climatology. "Going Green to me" is getting off the grid, and not using oil. I love LED's and CFL's and electric cars, and hydrogen cars, but "to me", it's entirely separate from Global Warming --- in my mind.

But I do have one last question.

Are you FOR Copenhagen? Or against it?
Maybe a "small why" explanation.

I love the Bradblog over the years and while I agree with Brad like 99%, I hope this doesn't divide us.

99 I meant that people have been lulled into a false belief that you vote for someone every 2 or 4 years and if they break their promises there's nothing you can do but wait 2 or 4 more years.

People should realize "that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

People have the right to tell the government what to do, even the military.

Okay. "Let me be clear" and "make no mistake" the media are owned by the same guys who own all three branches of our government. So people can run for office and organize for policy until they are purple with bright green polkadots and it will always come down to precisely what our owners want... unless and until people will make them stop.

@ 38

Right on! And amen, brother!

phil

Whatever's the bottom line truth of the matter, the only lucid thing to do is to clean up our act. The worst case scenario is then that there's another mass extinction event on a cleaner planet, and the best case scenario is that it was all a lot of hooey but we live on a clean planet. The reason we have to do what we can is because what we do might actually save billions of life forms.

There is no inconsistency with fighting global fascism and fighting global warming.

Until about 20 years ago, the Democrats were truly the lesser of two evils, and one could hope for some marginal improvements from them (and sometimes some big improvements, as in civil rights). Now the Democrats have become completely worthless--an utter tool of the military industrial complex. The only argument for voting for them is that they are not loony like the Republicans. I don't think this is a sufficient argument. Honestly, Lou Dobbs, for all his anti-immigrant hysteria, may be the most credible choice for President in 2012. At least he wants to increase good American jobs.

Obamanable

Disappointment hardly begins to describe the ragged feelings of many after Obama’s announcement that he will be sending 30,000 more troops to Afghanistan. Our economy is in freefall, yet Obama has committed to spend trillions of dollars in a war that cannot be won, a war that he vowed to end when he was courting votes. The trillions of dollars that will be spent in this fruitless effort would be much better spent in assistance and training for the millions of unemployed people in the United States who face a stark future, or creating jobs, or providing health insurance for the millions of Americans who have none, or improving the education system so that there is actually a level playing field regarding resources and opportunities for all children.

Obama, how could you? How could you condemn tens of thousands of brave and courageous troops to death by Afghanistan? How could you essentially inflict death upon tens of thousands of innocent Afghan citizens, who will die as the result of “collateral damage” in that country? How could you go against the clear mandate that was handed to you in your Presidential Landslide victory, when the country elected you, in large part, because you vowed to end the war in Iraq and Afghanistan? Did someone perform the equivalent of a lobotomy on your backbone? And to think that many of us actually defended you when you won the Nobel Peace Prize, and were lambasted by people who claimed that you did not deserve it.

Apparently, you did not deserve it. Further, you did not deserve to win the Presidency if this is the heinous, spineless, way that you will proceed with business as usual in the country’s capital.

It is an utter Obamanation.

cdtoo.blogspot.com

White Alquida orchestrated 9-11 and the official cover-up was authored and edited by their inside treasonous dirtbag Philip Zelicow.

The New World Order Illuminati and friends like Cheney former defense contracting company Haliburton are the war lovers because they are making blood money at the expense of the U.S. military and civilian lives in occupied countries as well. These super rich elite are doing such a job on this country that that that old adage that a county prospers during war does not apply at all in this case.

Bomb makers and bankers are getting richer along with the the energy company heads however, most other Americans wiped out and or watching their dimes.

OF COURSE these wars are being paid for by U.S. tax dollars and future taxable dollars. Comment #23 illustrated the words use by their Illuminati political puppet President to sell the fear based story line drivel dreamed up by the Project for a New American Century that's going on it's 9th year.

Brad: Hurray for corporatist Obama! Maybe Obama named an arbitrary date for withdrawal although if you take military lives lost and all the lives that will be destroyed between now and that date, could you possibly describe to me what measure of success will be attained compared to if U.S. forces withdrew tomarrow?

A shrunken head of Bin Ladden WOULD NOT EVER compare to the high-tech military thermate cutter charges positively identified on steel and dust samples from all 3 demolished World Trade Towers in a peer reviewed paper by Professor Steven Jones. Thermite cuts through steel like a hot knife through butter and left their particle residue. Why was it found? Why was there molten metal running out of all 3 WTT's?

CRICKETS.

Phil: You always raise some interesting points. While I am not a biological scientist, I can tell you that the glaciers are melting at an alarming rate and world climates have been noticably changing. The planet is heating up and if you look at charts that measure the carbon level, it appears to be rising through the roof so to speak.

The oceans are in a state of emergency and the ocean fisheries are in danger of a complete collapse from fishermen's nets and human pollution that has decimated entire species.

Since the industrial revolution, man has been raping the ground and pumping all this dangerous shit into the air, land and sea while the human population keeps growing exponentially now at about 7 billion.

While I think Alex Jones has unearthed the real globalist bastards behind the wars, 9-11, and the Amero, On the issue of Global Warming Climate Change, I would say he's dead wrong. I choose to support the views of NON-PROFIT ORGANIZATIONS such as NRDC, Earth Justice, and the Union of Concerned Scientist who have expertise in field Earth Science and a proven track record for saving wild places and world species.

Now realization of the existance of G.W.C.C. as a world problem with catastrophic consequence is 1 important issue not to be mislead. That's not to say that the big corporations and politicians haven't figured out a way to create a money making racket out of this dire situation.

From Michael Moore'S site
http://www.michaelmoore.com

War President
Obama: 30,000 more troops to Afghanistan

Obama: "We Did Not Ask for This Fight"
Bush: "We Did Not Seek This Conflict"
Obama: "New Attacks are Being Plotted as I Speak"
Bush: "At This Moment ... Terrorists are Planning New Attacks"
Obama: "Our Cause is Just, Our Resolve Unwavering"
Bush: "Our Cause is Just, Our Coalition [is] Determined"
Obama: "This Is No Idle Danger, No Hypothetical Threat"
Bush: "The Enemies of Freedom Are Not Idle"
Obama: "We Have No Interest in Occupying Your Country"
Bush: "I Wouldn't Be Happy if I Were Occupied Either"

Just speculation but maybe it's a message. Maybe Obama is trying to say that the neocons are still in power behind the scenes.

Why would the words be almost the same.
P.S. I haven't checked the speeches to see if they are really almost the same.

GBD said,
"That's not to say that the big corporations and politicians haven't figured out a way to create a money making racket out of this dire situation."

This get's a tad closer to my concerns. Can we survive another monetary drain right now? I mean we can't even audit the fed, so I think it's prudent to find out before setting such a heavy agenda. Shouldn't we flush the system of this bank problem, and recover from that, before we address a reasonable doubt of a "pro man caused argument" for global warming.

I am well aware of the pollution. In water, air, food, etc. Back in the 80's and into the 90's I watched as BRAC closed military base after base. Leaving behind a plethora of toxic superfund sites. It became brutally apparent it takes money to clean up superfund sites.

Then we could go on about "Clean Coal" tell that to the folks back east, who get chased off the river in canoes, trying to photo the coal sludge. I get it, it's bad. We should try to stop such catastrophes if it's within our monetary ability.

But what is the solution? Put this on the taxpayer's national debt credit card? Where does it stop?

I understand the concept "Global Warming" can mean cooling in places, and heat in others, and ultimately sea level changes, and land mass loss for coastal locations. I see weather changes in my own garden. Two week or was it three week sweltering heat one summer. I notice other things in weather as well too many to list.

Even if it's true global warming is caused by man(which I am not convinced) I see cleaning up pollution and toxic supersites as a separate issue from global warming.

We don't need to make our morning coffee cost $50 while we are rubbing the crap our of our eyes to put on our bio hazzard suits to clean up the toxic waste. That's over the limit to what I would call common sense. My understanding is cap and trade would make such prices go up. The money has to come from somewhere, and the US is tapped out with this unpunished bankster crap.

So, if humans are causing global warming, I am for attempting within our monetary means to set things straight, but I am clearly against cap and trade, which I currently believe doesn't do squat about melting ice. How does reducing my savings by 50% or 90% (like in Korea Recently) make the ICE stop melting. I can pour out a glass of ice on the patio and it WILL eventually melt. The problem I see is it's a tax on my breathing. That's not the pursuit of happiness, that's global taxation without representation. And it's further a question of our government being controlled by global corporations. (As so the money comes from somewhere, it must so too go somewhere-- that somewhere being corporations)

Are they linked to banks? You or I can't answer, as we can't audit our own banks or the fed.

How does anyone know this isn't because of HAARP and Chem Trails? Wouldn't anyone at least want to find out first!? So we blindly give up our monetary system, and laws to suit --- I guess it's --- the UN? or is it UNEP?

99 Said,
There is no inconsistency with fighting global fascism and fighting global warming.

I see NO inconsistency either, when you put it like this, except when I am being forced by my officials to support a certain path, when it's still debatable what the correct path should even be.

---

I hate it that the United States always always freaking seems to have to have an unexpected emergency forcing citizens rights and taxpayer's to bend over yet again. When the FUCK are we going to get real leaders to be our officials. Leaders who PLAN ahead to prevent this crap, not the leaders who PLAN ahead to cause and profit from it.

The obamastan 30k troop surge is bad. It ought to be 30k troops leaving every four days, not arriving every four months. especially when Afghanistan government is complete crap, and there's blind guy's with no tongue (or something like that) who make weapons with their bare hands.. The only thing I MIGHT support for Afghanistan, is using say something evil like Monsanto to make their current heroin crop their last if you catch my drift, while simultanously getting the hell out of the middle east completely. alternatively, compassionately, they could leave some kind of heirloom seed farmers could profit from in return. We don't want em dead, just not making H. And I guess now I think of it, we do need some H for our opium based drug things, so I guess that brings up yet another
pandora's box of dilemma.

Konstantin

Thanks for reprintng my post at #23.

Yes, people have the right to tell the government what to do...but I thought that's why we had elections in our Constitutional Republic. Our elected representatives (rigged/faulty elections systems aside) are our voices for telling the government what to do. A lot of people got up off their asses (listening carefully or not) to elect this man because they thought he was going to tell the government what we wanted it to do (a lot of that wanting was just something other than the previous shite administration, and as Brad pointed out, we did actually get a bit of that...not much, but a bit), as opposed to "become" the government. We thought he was our voice. Silly us. But his election was the result of a lot of people thinking that they could make a difference, me included. So I do kind of resent the "get up off your asses" remark, however I also understand it.

But the other side of the "get up off your asses" is..."OK, then what...pitchforks? Bachmann-esque panty-raids on Congress? Paranoid backwoods militias? Burning the Reichst...er, I mean, the US Capitol?" That's kind of what the billboard in Missouri was advocating, and that's a really scary idea for me, because I don't think the people who posted that billboard are akin in spirit to Paul Revere and Patrick Henry. There's no "I regret that I have but one life to lose for my country" in that crowd. That crowd is selfish, racist, xenophobic, and quite frankly not very learned about the founding of our nation. If they did, they'd have half a clue what the original Tea Party was all about.

Is that what you advocate?

For me, I'm more with Jefferson's "Education is the currency of Democracy" line of thinking. I think that the generally smarter and more civically educated people are, the less easy it is for them to be controlled by illegitimate sources - in our case, we are controlled (as is our government) by a global corporatocracy. But it has been sold to us over the long years, particularly us Americans, through the mantra of "capitalism". I look at the more educated, happier, healthier people in much of Europe, and their overwhelming CHOICE of a socialist political system, and I'm afraid that is what I have to work for in my country, because I do love my country despite what R'il 'Merkins might say. But we wouldn't/won't get there through guerilla violence on our existing system.

We have to start taking third party candidates seriously. Greens, Socialists, Libertarians, Constitutionalists...well, maybe not them...but you know...

That is why the work to clean up elections is imperative (whoa! back on some kind of relevant message) as are publicly funded elections.

I have to thank Obama, however, for repelling me enough to help me find my bearings again.

Soul Rebel said,
"A lot of people got up off their asses (listening carefully or not) to elect this man because they thought he was going to tell the government what we wanted it to do (a lot of that wanting was just something other than the previous shite administration, and as Brad pointed out, we did actually get a bit of that...not much, but a bit), as opposed to "become" the government. We thought he was our voice. Silly us."

That reminds me of change.gov, seems it was designed backwards. They wanted us to go there to give voice and suggestions, then they analyze and break down the data. Some of us knowing about FISA are scared to even visit a .gov website. When instead they should have just used all of the web as the existing data and break it down. The voices were already there, we didn't need a new name an password, we needed our officials to listen and do the right thing.

But they're not doing the right thing, and they behave like they are not listening.

We aren't getting any third party that will be a third party. They aren't allowed in. If by some Herculean feat we got a third party in, it would still be Republicrat in office, or it would not stay in office. That's very clear.

And we aren't getting publicly funded elections, ever, either, unless we make the plutocrats sit down and shut up. That's also very clear.

Same gripes now for my entire adult life, and probably for decades before.

I'm not advocating violence... but they will not ever do any of this stuff until the numbers are so scary that they feel the violence breathing down their necks. No. Other. Way. And that does mean people risking their necks. Risking assassination. Not having to be violent, but not backing down from the possibility of it being forced on one either.

All over the world people go out in the streets in fantastic-to-us numbers, whether they are being beaten or shot or hauled off to be tortured.

Our government is broken. Even if the votes are counted perfectly precisely correctly, our government is broken.

Really. Let it sink in. All three branches and the entire MSM are filled with this woman's former coworkers types. Just as we-the-people are not sticking our necks out to do the right thing, so too are the media people and "public servants" not sticking their necks out to do the right thing... only much more comfortably... and learning to sleep like babies after a few terms....

Our government is broken.

Soul Rebel that wasn't directed at you personally but at most Americans who sit their fat asses in front of the tv eating MickyDs while Rome burns.

You said "We thought he was our voice. Silly us."
Exactly! Why do people think the President is their voice? He's not. Even theoretically in the US Constitution he's not the people's voice.

In reality in the recent past maybe 120 years, the President is the voice of the special interests who put him in office, in Obama's case I think Goldman Sachs.

There is only an illusion of democracy any more. It's more like a control system so citizen's don't get restless and actually get up off their fat asses and do something about their economic slavery which is more or less in effect civil slavery.

It seems that many of the Presidents for the past 100 years have been proxy figureheads for the bgi interests corporations and big banks like J.P. Morgan, Chase (Rockefellers before they merged with Morgan), and some other ones which might not be around today.

Those interests manipulate the control system, aka democracy, for their benefit while people are given the illusion that they are in control and make a difference.

Well, if you are going to step out of the bounds of existing legalities vis-a-vis governmental change, you pretty much might as while go all the way, no? Is the result "America", past or present? Who knows man, maybe that's the fly in the ointment, the sand in the sand in the vaseline.

Clinging to "America" may make as much sense as clinging to God. It sustains us even if it is a false reality.

There's this video I saw recently by Lew Rockwell about his book "The Left, the Right, and the State"

Very interesting. Worth the time watching.
You can download it

http://mises.org/multime...C2009/ASC09_Rockwell.mp4
Size 190 megabytes

Or you can watch it online at this link:
http://mises.org/media/3019?silverlight=0

Soul Rebel said,

"Well, if you are going to step out of the bounds of existing legalities vis-a-vis governmental change, you pretty much might as while go all the way, no?"

Didn't the patriot act, fisa, undeclared wars, and torture already do this?

And I just thought about something. How come the NSA didn't just go bust CRU? Surely the NSA can has a copy of all the emails.

Why don't they do it on the banksters also?

Why don't police spend as much time on corrupt officials as they do on pot farms? I hear pot farm bust, pot farm bust pot farm bust pot farm bust, but no "official indicted for corruption now headed for penalty phase." It's like there are no crimes except by the little people.

It's like this whole bankster thing is the worse felony in the history of the world, and now the criminals that did it are the ones buying guns and converting their booty to gold, while laying down more and more egregious laws on the little people incrementally provoking them towards becoming a home grown terrorist, when in reality every one of those pricks who did over $15 grand should be three strike'd - life in prision, just like if you went out and smashed three $5,000 dollar optical scanners.

Phil
Glaciers grew in 2008, as well as shrank. In fact 3 glaciers in California grew of all places. This is of course on Mt. Shasta.
Glaciers also grew in Alaska and other places.
Just so you know that the alarmists are just that. Alarmists.
And profit seekers are profit seekers.
So on so on.
However this is not to say that we have REAL polution problems.
But to say Co2?
I don't know, but it seems to me the most fundamental part of the Man Made Global Warming theory is that CO2 follows temperature.
However from my research it seeems quite the opposite.
Keep asking questions. Those who answer with ridicule or sarcasm are just scared. Global Warming is a religion now...as we can see around many "progressive" websites.

Brian R

There's more evidence for Global Warming than there is for the existence of God, but that doesn't seem to stop about 85% of Americans from "believing."

There's an irony in that.

If I going to err on the side of caution, do I err on the side of possible/probable (I'm trying to play Devil's Advocate with that description, so I don't want a lecture on what is or isn't faked or fudged or who has what agenda or wants to make money) scientific evidence for even a small chance of global destruction due to climate change influenced by humans (aside from the eventuality of us nuking the shit out of each other, lol!)...by way of trying to limit output of CO2 and CH4, or whatever you want to target as the pollutant du jour...

Or do I err on the side of believing in some deity who is going to judge me based on some whacked-out interpretations of millenia-old fairytales. I am so trying not to be judgmental with that statement, which causes me to turn to political support and identity with right wing nutcases like Ann Coulter who thinks that Genesis can be interpreted as "God said Here's the earth, it's yours. Take it. Rape it."?

Now I'm not saying that YOU, or even ALL of the Global Warming skeptics are right-wing religious freakos. But I'm pretty sure a bunch of 'em are. Sarah Palin's got me quite convinced of that.

"... I hear pot farm bust, pot farm bust pot farm bust pot farm bust, but no "official indicted for corruption now headed for penalty phase." "

I love you, Phil~!

Disclaimer:
I sold my cars for a bike 5 years ago.
I stopped eating meat and dairy for experimental reasons including environment even before selling my cars.
I build vegetable beds, and chicken coups, and operate a 9/11 truth website.
I FULLY believe Global Warming by Man is a Money Making Machine now. And that is no easy answer to come to terms with after my life experiances.
Tell me,
do you think Toyotas goal with the Prious is to sell LESS cars?
sorry for the climate talk here folks...
BUT IF THE WAR ENDED the climate would be better off...

regardless of what Obama says there is one thing that is undeniable about Afghanistan.
It is an occupation started by an illegitimate US administration (Bush/Cheney) that are both Treasonous war criminals and it was started solely because of greed, to lay an oil pipeline.

It had absolutely NOTHING to do with 9/11, the 9/11 attacks were planned and executed in the white house.

So this whole 'occupation" is a sham so no matter how many innocent civilians we murder, no matter how many US soldiers die needlessly, no matter how many more get sent or how long we stay it is all moot.
It was entirely for the Caspian Pipeline and it was all based on lies, still is.

Here's the problem

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Judaism

...and the end result

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsTRxXvQY0s

Nobody wants to admit it, but this is what is going to happen eventually.
Two Abrahamic faiths going to meet their maker.

Correct me if I'm wrong....

Did Obama even mention Osama Bin Laden yesterday ?

If I'm not mistaken, during last year's campaign capturing Osama Bin Laden was going to be the focus of Barack Obama's Afghanistan efforts ?

Did Obama even say the words Osama Bin Laden ?

If not then why ?

Can you say "false flag" ?

Brad @27...

We could tit for tat till dollars turn to gold...I see your point.

But at every important turn Obama has laid down and caved in the face of strident yet very small opposition. I can understand him not being able to get do what he promised...what I despise is his lack of effort. Obama's focus has been on the corporate elite...not the people he promised he would champion...name one measure that has given the middle class any relief.

Few Presidents in the last 60 to 70 years have had the mandate for change that Obama got last November; yet nothing fundamentally has changed. Nothing. I'll be happy to be wrong as hell about this...but given the record so far. I can't say that I am.

Things won't change as long as we the people continue to accept Obama's excuses for not doing a damn thing he promised. it's busy as usual.

I know Washington is an entrenched circle jerk of corruption. But it looks like Obama has taken his place in the staus quo scheme of things.

Brian R @55

Mt. Shasta doesn't have a glacier. It has an ice-cap. To use data from on small place on earth to disprove climate change isn't good science either.

From my research climate change is more readily evident in ocean temperatures.

But to be specific glaciers reside at the poles...Mountains have ice-caps and usually their own climate.

Brian,

Thanks for the reply, I will always ask questions.
(regulars here already know this)

Don't worry about your religion in regards to what anything thinks.

You have a nice website, stay in there and keep it up for whatever you believe in. I've wrestled over the past few years if http://sacxtra.com (my website) shouldn't be more political, but I have decided that music really doesn't have anything to do with all this mayhem and no band ought be punished (or accidentally punished) by my personal political beliefs.

With one exception.
I do on occasion let er' rip. I ain't stupid.

For ex: Nobody can sit there and tell me electronic vote tabulation devices (when ANY semiconductor components arranged in ANY way with ANY program) can act as a human chain of custody.

I wish I could fund fully Bradblog for 10 years into the future. That's a rough goal, perhaps, not knowing what new drastic changes to the web could come from all that crap the government has been planning.
His website is that important in my opinion.

But I have my own limitations. I ain't a billionaire or a millionaire and I barely have time to keep my own cruft running at this point. One guy can only do so much, and my health hasn't been so wonderful for the past couple years which limits the amount of time I can focus on anything before blurred vision, confusion, pain kick in. I can point people this way though. It's what I love about this website is so-far all issues have been addressed, people don't get to just come here and say something and not have someone else put it in perspective or clarify.

I do it to others, they do it to me. Don't think you didn't teach me something. Hell I never knew Mt Shasta ice caps grew. I guess it would make sense with all that rain norCal gets.

We need ideas, and ideas start by talking and thinking about stuff. I am by no means perfect

Hmmm... since Al Queda and the Taliban were allowed to escape 8 years ago, I see any continuing war over there as highly suspect.

Spare me the soaring rhetoric about 'freedom and democracy' and 'destroying the terrorsts' because they threaten us at home. The schoolboy propaganda tactics dont work on me. The money spicket re-opens full force for Halliburton, KBR, Xe, Dyncorp, Bechtel......Death Profiteers. We all know that Obama is another Corporate puppet. Im just hoping hell throw us a bone.

Id venture to say this has to do with the pipeline that runs through Af/Pak, A dominant Central Asian presence to surround Iran, Guard the other 'Stans', Control the Opiate Trade, NATO practice, and generally play with Russia's head.

Too bad so much blood has to be spilled for a Global Governance. Its also too bad that the truth isnt told as to what the real motives are. Maybe the 'forces' could get behind some of the ideaology and fight for Corporate Hedgemonic Global Government that the U.S. and E.U. are leading.

Its just more Death.

BlueHawk @ 64
Mt. Shasta has 7 Glaciers to my understanding.
http://www.usatoday.com/...a-growing-glaciers_N.htm
Just to clear the air for myself.
I said that Global Warming is a religion now.
I did not say I am religious, which some people think i said.
So we know, there is information of over 100,000 glaciers in the world. All the global Warming Alarm is coming from Data about less than 80 of those glaciers.
http://nsidc.org/data/g01130.html
http://www.sciencedaily....2009/01/090129090002.htm
I don't deny the earth is a changing climate, only why.
End The War, support the troops, bring them home, arrest Bush and Obama, Kissinger, Brzinski and GW for good measure.

Susan Truitt @ 43 said:

Obama has committed to ... a war that he vowed to end when he was courting votes.

As far as I recall, he vowed to "finish the job in Afghanistan", over and over again during the campaign. Did he vow to "end" it? If so, did he say how he would end it? Appreciate any links to back up your specific point. All I recall is his promise to "finish the job in Afghanistan". I'll welcome your correction if you're able to provide evidence/link for it.

Phil -

Frankly, sounds to me like you've for the hooey being offered by the deniers out there, who are offering all sorts of misinformation, including the notion that there is some grand "New World Order" conspiracy behind the concerns of global warming, and the attempts by some in the U.S. to use a cap and trade system in hopes of combatting it. Cap and trade is not all that particularly radical, has been used (successfully) in the past for other emissions concerns that resulted in helping to deal with acid rain, ozone issues, etc. Even George W. Bush institute cap and trade policies, but he was a Republican, so it was okay, apparently, and the whack jobs didn't have any complaints with him doing so.

Now that there is a HUGE amount of money being spent by energy companies to defeat Obama, and a wingnut army happy to do their bidding in the same hopes, the entire matter is a "hoax", a "religion", a plan to take over the world. That is all, with due respect, complete and utter nonsense. The contrarians out there (that's putting it nicely) like Alex Jones, do well for themselves by being contrarians and playing to a crowd eager to believe in such conspiracies. But simply because he makes a case for it, doesn't make him any more accurate than when he was making the case that Obama wasn't a U.S. citizen.

For the record, there is every reason to believe that the economy will be HELPED (as opposed to harmed) by climate change legislation, both for the amount of new green jobs it will create, as well as the potential enviro-economical collapse it may help to avoid in the not-too-distant future.

And be cautious about folks like "Brian R" here who seems to be offering pseudo-science straight off the Rush Limbaugh show. Suffice to say, he ain't offering you actual, independently verifiable FACTS, but rather the Limbaugh religous denialist nonsense (whether he realizes it or not.)

BlueHawk said @ 63:

name one measure that has given the middle class any relief.

Tax relief to the middle class, as 85% of Americans received beginning on April 1 of this year. I could go on (and none of it is enough, of course), but you asked for "one measure", so there it is.

The only thing surprising about last night's speech was Obama seems to be keeping a campaign promise for once. Maybe that is what makes it so surprising since he's failed to keep so many other promises.

And S.R. comment #13 hits it exactly, except I learned from the Kerry disaster and voted for Ron Paul in 2008. Same result, we're still under Obama, but I can feel better when I have to throw stones because I wasn't responsible for helping to put him in power as bush v3.0. I did have a lot of optimism initially with the election, now mostly dashed to the ground with every Obama move that seems to favor corporate power and profits over the common citizen.

What an interesting thread. I read through this morning because as soon as I heard President Obama hearken back to 'when the planes hit the towers.' I was so disgusted I only listened to the first 12 minute clip on You Tube. Planes don't cause global collapse in buildings designed to withstand multiple plane crashes. And what of Building 7 that wasn't even hit by a plane? Didn't hear him talk about that. But enough of 911-Truth (though I do hope more and more people will demand it). But to equate that line of reasoning with a continued larger presence in Afghanistan is absurd regardless. Spend the money defending our borders then (unless that is impossible because so many ports are already owned essentially by other nations aren't they?). We have all been snookered and should be angry about it. I voted for him because I was afraid of Palin (a lot of good that did me, looks like we'll have her in 2012 anyway... geeze let's hope not). I had no illusions. I heard his Iraq bad war/Afghanistan good war diatribe during the campaign. Crap then, crap now. I will be brave and vote my choice from now on. And, we could all write a letter or two to our 'Representatives' and 'Senators.' I read a couple of Google news articles about a War Tax to fund this little adventure. So deliciously timely as I was re-reading "Civil Disobedience" Tuesday. Looks like this will never get legs. Which leads me to the questions as to why Obama is proposing it at all? Weird, especially when coupled with the side-by-side Obama/Bush war rhetoric posted by SoulRebel.

War President
Obama: 30,000 more troops to Afghanistan

Obama: "We Did Not Ask for This Fight"
Bush: "We Did Not Seek This Conflict"
Obama: "New Attacks are Being Plotted as I Speak"
Bush: "At This Moment ... Terrorists are Planning New Attacks"
Obama: "Our Cause is Just, Our Resolve Unwavering"
Bush: "Our Cause is Just, Our Coalition [is] Determined"
Obama: "This Is No Idle Danger, No Hypothetical Threat"
Bush: "The Enemies of Freedom Are Not Idle"
Obama: "We Have No Interest in Occupying Your Country"
Bush: "I Wouldn't Be Happy if I Were Occupied Either"

And, sarcasm aside, people will die so we must speak out.

I think the confusion is over the term "glaciers". Mt. Shasta's "glaciers" are not huge, are not what most people think of when they hear the word. You could only really call them that because of the topography of that mountain. It does keep its snow cap year-round, but it's nothing spectacular. It's very pretty there, but this is not anything big as glaciers or mountains go. The water levels in the reservoir there go for long periods of not reaching their full potential, and there have been many gripes that there isn't enough snow cap in the not so distant past... that the "glaciers" were almost gone, if you will. So their growing doesn't mean anything more than there has been more precipitation, after a long dry spell.

I live in the extreme northwest of California, where we get the most rain in the state... actually, the full force of most of the storms dumps just south of me most of the time.... The weather patterns are noticeably off. For my whole life living on the coast it is always warmer here in the winter and cooler in the summer than inland. Not so much for the last few years. And this year it is really off kilter. It's much colder than usual for three or four days running and then much warmer than usual for two or three days... and it keeps alternating back and forth. So far this year there has been what most would call a lot of rain, but less than average.

It has snowed here, at sea level, every winter for the last few years, which is unheard of, but also the roses and fruit trees keep blooming extra during the wrong times. Roses are in full bloom right now... when all the Christmas lights are up around here.

The last eight or ten summers we have had temperatures reach into the 90's a few times... also completely unheard of... macabre.

This is pretty much in line with what the scientific consensus has been since I can remember: that the weather in individual places will be changing, colder where it's usually warmer, and warmer where it's usually colder, and unstable, not following its usual rhythms... with an overall rise in the global mean.

And just as a stultifying number of numb skulls don't grok the laws of physics well enough to realize they're lying to us about 9/11, evidently a bunch of them don't grok that CO₂ is a greenhouse gas, that "greenhouse gas" means it warms the atmosphere, that ripping out the planet's mechanism for sequestering it to keep a temperate balance means we cease keeping that temperate balance. It isn't rocket science, but it still eludes people.

It eludes them because they make money staying stupid, but just because it's true doesn't mean some won't fit it into their schemes for subjugating the unwashed masses.

The point is that the whole of humanity has to do something about it. We don't also have to let plutocrats subjugate us further with it. Just because they lie to use us all the time, doesn't mean they don't also turn the truth against us. They aren't limited in the means they use to further their own ends... but some of our brains sure seem to be.

Lyndon Barack Johnson, say hello to president Sarah "Richard Nixon" Palin in 2012!

Brad...

I vented last night. I was sorely pissed.

You're being the devil's advocate here and I appreciate that. I'm not minimizing the humongous clusterfuck Obama walked into. It just seems when push comes to shove, Obama sides with the corporate elite every time.

Obama seems to be taking his leftist support for granted...He's playing with fire. He can't keep schmoozing the oilgarchy while ignoring those that got him elected, those that need a lot of help NOW.

I'm just wondering how long will we the people wait before Obama has the guts to do something SUBSTANTIAL for the people...When will he tell the corporate elite to go fuck themselves once.

I'm starting to realize that my wait may be in vain...

Brian R: should we get off Big Oil anyway??? Aren't we financing "the terrorists" by using oil?

How come no one is bringing up the link between disputing Global Warming and staying on Big Oil? No one's saying, the reason certain powerful people want to trash Global Warming is so we stay on Big Oil. Did everyone forget that??? Disputing Global Warming implies staying with Big Oil for energy. People aren't trashing Global Warming simply because they think it's a hoax, they're trashing it so we stay on Big Oil. Is everyone forgetting this? Let's get the people who are trashing Global Warming to say: "Global Warming is a hoax...but I still want to get off Big Oil". Have you heard ANY of them say that?

BlueHawk

They've only spent a quarter of the stimulus package, but they've spent something like 500%, or more, on the bailouts. Obama, and nearly the whole legislature, have definitely opted to keep the people at the top in business at the expense of the lower and middle classes. That too is not rocket science.

He just last night announced he's chosen this again over the very lives of millions of citizens.

You guys gotta listen to this outstanding interview... twenty two minutes. James W. Douglass says precisely why Obama ain't no JFK.

Check this out, regarding WestPoint. Priceless!

http://www.westpointgradsagainstthewar.org/

Agent 99 @77

Obama isn't JFK...but he plays one on tv.
HA!

I couldn't resist...I'll go view that vid....

BlueHawk said:

I vented last night. I was sorely pissed.

Certainly understood. That's what we're here for

It just seems when push comes to shove, Obama sides with the corporate elite every time.

Agreed. But, again, he did same during the campaign. Unfortunately.

Obama seems to be taking his leftist support for granted...He's playing with fire.

Agreed wholeheartedly. Not sure what he's thinking, but you're absolutely right there, IMO.

Robert Redford: Playboy Interview

PLAYBOY: When you received the Kennedy Center Honor in 2005, President Bush called you "extraordinarily handsome, effortlessly fascinating and enormously talented." Was it difficult to shake his hand?

REDFORD: It was tough, but you have to shake his hand. You go through the motions because everybody's taking the high road. I was assured beforehand that this was an honor above politics, and I said, "If that's the case, okay, I'll have to bite it." It really was about my family and giving my kids and especially my grandkids a chance to see firsthand how a place like the White House operates, and boy, they saw it all right.

PLAYBOY: What happened?

REDFORD: What we observed that night was mind-bending. Here were sworn enemies, the leaders who beat the shit out of each other all day in public, but the minute those doors closed for the state dinner, the daggers went away and it was one big happy family. Condoleezza Rice got up and couldn't have been sweeter or more gracious; she was smiling at everyone. I thought, This is so bizarre. Then I saw former Republican senator Bill Frist weaving through the tables, and he came over to Ted Kennedy and started massaging his shoulders and laughing like they were the oldest buddies in the world. Everybody was crossing the aisles and chuckling, and I said, "Oh, I get it! It really is just a game." They have to go out and say, "I represent so-and-so and such-and-such a platform," but it's absolute total bullshit.

It's time to start looking for a real candidate that represents the people and he/she will not be found in the War Party that has two faces. We're probably going to have to set up a new political party. And, he/she will have to be protected with weapons because the CIA will come gunning for him/her. What a massive disappointment! What an immensely clever ruse! Put up an intelligent speaking black man to focus everyone's hopes and dreams, both white and minorities. I saw the tears in everyone's eyes on that night and on his inauguration day. I know people from India who were openly weeping. They said that the American people were to be congratulated for raising the status of all minorities throughout the world. Yes, it was a great symbol, but it turns out a hollow one. He just whipped out his dick and pissed on us all. It is time to rise.

"And it's one two three what are fightin for? Don't ask me I don't give a damn. Next stop is Vietnam.... Well ther ain't no time to wonder why whoopie were all gonna die!" - Country Joe and the fish

peaceoftheaction.org

Brad @ 68

It's a downer when all my point is that I am not convinced one way or the other that global warming is "caused by man" and while it's quite convenient to toss around "conspiracy theories" as a playful description of a possible new world order, the reality is politics and policy was changed because of the direction pointed too by these scientists who now have nasty grunge mucking round their own data crafted, and edited by their own hands.

We already know corporations are going to try to profit off everything they can exploit, how is it some "conspiracy theory" to want to step back, take a breath and make sure these existing policies and any new policies (or agreements with other governments) which could indeed over-ride our own existing law, constitution and sovereignty are scrutinized when such blatant outright cooking of the data sets.

I don't see where the science is proven one way or another. At least to my satisfaction.

I've watched what happened to the Constitution over the past decade, and I can barely believe how so many amendments were hacked up and made irrelevant, and yet nobody is on the hook for breaking their oath of office for any of that still to this day. So what's conspiracy about asking questions about if it's possible this whole thing is just a scam to place the (UNEP) as ultimate authority of all nations regardless of their existing laws.

Again, I ain't arguing the world has some kind of global warming / cooling . That's obvious to anyone who's spent time in their garden, what I am arguing is I am not convinced about the cause.

I did take information from both left and right and OTHER points of view. I never said anything was was fact in my questioning, I simply ask, "what if?" I can't honestly open my heart and line my ducks in a row behind you or anyone else, on these "Global warming is caused by man" talking points as long as counter questions remain unanswered.

Cooked data maybe a fine reason to crack the champaign for these scientists, but I can't find anything that makes it go down my palate any smoother.

It's also not funny to me how what starts out as "conspiracy theory" ends up being fact just a few short years later.

Furthermore you said,
or the record, there is every reason to believe that the economy will be HELPED (as opposed to harmed) by climate change legislation, both for the amount of new green jobs it will create, as well as the potential enviro-economical collapse it may help to avoid in the not-too-distant future.

I disagree creating money out of thin air and lobbing it on top of the existing taxpayer debt will grow our economy, what will help our economy is if we actually start producing items which have value, and invent new technology. For example solar energy is something that is real and has value. As opposed to borrowing more money (my understanding is 10 billion initially) we don't have based on something politically charged which the science is not fully settled on.

I don't want to be taking a ride on the one way train to living in a nation having three branches of government with the UNEP over the top of it, taxing the crap out of us. We already have problems enough. If you want to call that conspiracy I am not here to stop you.

However I call it being cautious and concerned and challenge any such agreements. Every time we've had global anything it's screwed Americans. NAFTA, GAT, CAFTA.

The Ticker Guy's GDP to Debt chart tells me mathematically we are in big trouble. I don't see how more debt is going to help anything but speed the bubble to pop.

I at no time ever called folks who do believe global warming is caused by man, conspiracy theorists. I simply said I am not convinced.

I guess time will tell who is right and who is wrong. But that's a poor way of doing business.

I'm no defender of corporations, but a time of such serious economic fragility may not be the best time to fully take on all of those corporations, and beat them down. Just think if there were NO corporations at all. Sounds great, right? Now what if that happened tomorrow. Can you imagine what would happen? Can you really?

Chris -

Our entire economy is a construct. The way it is constructed is that power, wealth, and resources are funneled upwards from the many to the few.

There are only three real resources: food, water, and shelter.

Right now, the corporate structure pretty much controls all of these in our daily existence. Seems like hippie communes might be the only way to defeat the corporate structure. Grow your own food, collect your own water, live minimally, detach, reduce consumption, barter.

Kind of like humans did for thousands of years before the industrial revolution.

Really, if there is no hope of changing the system using the system, then you're left with violent pushback (and really, who has the big guns, and does anyone think they're afraid to use them? They control the media too. 9-11, right GBD? I'm with you on that for sure) or complete detachment.

So yes, I can imagine what would happen without corporations - it probably wouldn't be pretty if it happened overnight, probably would be accompanied by a lot of panic and violence. I'd prefer a more peaceful route, if possible, but that (as I said before) would require a lot of education - or would it be re-education?

Obama said he would move the focus to Afghanistan. I was wary of that, but he also promised to reduce troops in Iraq and "you can take that to the bank". He promised change and seemed to understand the vital necessity for change. He seemed have the means, motive and the voters gave him the opportunity to make change - so I voted form him.

Well, there are still, 10 months after he took office, more troops in Iraq that before the surge. Close Gitmo, transparency, stop torture, stop illegal wire taps, reform the Patriot Act, re-start the middle east peace process, peacefully resolve the Iran (fabricated) threat - all unfulfilled promises. Not only that but he has generally done the opposite on each of these issues in a very Bushian fashion.

This escalation in Agf/Pak, against all logic, even if it was a stated policy before the election, put Obama well beyond redemption in my mind.

I'm so fucking depressed with our government that I can't even bring myself to sign a petition anymore.

I fear it will get much worse, probably violent, before it gets better. If it comes to violence you can put the FULL blame on Obama. He had the means, motive and opportunity to effect the change necessary to avoid the destruction of this country and chose not to save us.

Wow what a great discussion! Wish I had time to study up and join in, but alas I'm in crunch mode. Keep on keepin' on, y'all!

Phil -

I wasn't suggesting *you* were a conspiracist. The folks suggesting that there is some massive plan for a "New World Order", or some such, beyind the science and politics of global warming are suggesting conspiracies for which there seems no evidence whatsoever.

You are perfectly correct to ask questions, be skeptical of everything. No prob there. But you've referred several times to "cooked data" and such, and that's just not the case. That's a spin put onto the stolen emails by the folks opposed to global warming legislation (eg. Energy Companies, Obama Opponents, Conspiracy Theorists, etc.)

You also said, "Every time we've had global anything it's screwed Americans." Not true. Global accords in the past, concerning things like cap and trade on different greenhouse gasses to control acid rain, ozone issues, have been quite successful --- for both Americans AND the planet.

You can attribute the undeniable global warming, CO2 increase to anything you like. Fact is, it's happening. Where we can help reduce it, it seems we'd be wise to do so. In the bargain, we introduce new industries, jobs into the economy and --- oh, yeah, --- start finding independence from the despots and jackasses who we've been funding vis a vis our fossil fuel gluttony. (I'll let you decide who those despots and jackasses are). We also save lives lots of 'em.

Not sure where you suggestion of $10 billion comes from. No, there's not a worldwide tax. Cap and trade seems to be a very logical beginning to a serious problem, and don't worry, the Dems have watered it down so much that you won't even notice it, other than the big corporations getting a whole bunch more favors and money to make the medicine go down a bit easier. As usual.

But we gotta start somewhere.

Brad-
How do you KNOW?
And how can say the emails dont say they cooked data?
"..tricks to hide decrease (in temp) since 81..."
Again it seems that many are either believers (like brad at this point in his life)
or not.
That is hard for people trying to find facts.
It's very religious.
Its easy to blow it off as a conspiracy theory, thats what we do with everything we can't handle.
At least that how I see it, with all due respect.
I am asking you Brad not if the globe is warming, cooling, or changing- but how do you KNOW CO2 is the direct cause?

Brian R asked:

How do you KNOW?

Know what?

And how can say the emails dont say they cooked data?
"..tricks to hide decrease (in temp) since 81..."

Do you know what they were referring to? Did you read the emails? Did you read the context? Do you have evidence that private emails, not for public consumption, where lazy shorthand is used between two professionals somehow debunks the hundreds/thousands of scientific reports and millions of points of data from scientists across the entirety of the globe over decades?!

Read the emails. Read the context. Then read ALL OF THE SCIENCE you seem to be discounting because of what you have been told is in one email from one scientist about one graph on one topic.

Its easy to blow it off as a conspiracy theory, thats what we do with everything we can't handle.

Actually, no. I know for a fact that that there is a vast, very well-funded (and rather desperate) conspiracy to "debunk" science due to the perceived cost to several industries who stand to lose a lot of money.

Where you'd like to be critical and/or skeptical of any point in particular, you are welcome to be (as I am). But the nonsense that somehow climate science has suddenly been revealed as a "hoax" is the repetition of the disinformed, misinformed or disreputable.

I am asking you Brad not if the globe is warming, cooling, or changing- but how do you KNOW CO2 is the direct cause?

I don't. I'm not a scientist. So I'll have to generally rely on the vast consensus of scientists from across the globe who warn us, in report after report, paper after paper, that there is such a direct cause. In the meantime, anything we can do to get this world off fossil fuel would be a really really smart thing.

And you're problem with any of that is, exactly??

For Brian R (and perhaps Phil) -

Desi has been doing a fine job of answering to similar skeptics over in our most recent "Green News Report" thread. I might suggest/recommend/request that we try to use such threads (posted at least twice a week with each of our audio reports) to discuss these issues, rather than go so wildly off-topic in other threads.

But here's a quick graf or two from her most recent comment over there:

The entire comment is here. We'll have a new GNR rolling tomorrow, so perhaps we can take this stuff up on that thread, rather than going even further off topic on this one. Up to you, of course. But it might make it easier to discuss that way, and allow others to stay on point on other matters at the same time.

Keep believing Brother.
Its easy that you are simply misinformed by others that are misinformed.
And that could be the case for any "side."
But to "know," well thats what I call foolish.

I sent links earlier.
Data is configured from a very small fraction of the worlds glaciers.
It can be spun in many ways.
Some grow, some sink.
Seasons change.
But there is not much I can say more about it, I just havn't seen the direct proof of rising CO2 being the prerequisite for temperature rise.
Infact if it seems quite the opposite.
Phil Jones was stepping down as of last night because of this, is that still true?

Im sorry Brad,
By all means, I just read the last comment.
No more till tomorrow.
I appreciate your work, like I said, with all due respect.
Please end the War everybody, its up to us all!
Peace

Agent 99 @ 71: And just as a stultifying number of numb skulls don't grok the laws of physics well enough to realize they're lying to us about 9/11, evidently a bunch of them don't grok that CO₂ is a greenhouse gas, that "greenhouse gas" means it warms the atmosphere, that ripping out the planet's mechanism for sequestering it to keep a temperate balance means we cease keeping that temperate balance. It isn't rocket science, but it still eludes people.

This statement rocks!!! It precisely describes the problem of intellectually reaching out to an American people incapable of ever really getting the big picture. There Illuminati masters who run the US corporate mass media have this crew dialed in.

The Redford observation @ 81 that R and D are really 1 happy party of bushit was humorous knowing he made that old movie about political posturing and appearance to become president. Life imitates art.. and then he got to see it up close and personal.

Finally Brad @ 92. I know you wanted to be an actor but you really show your teeth as an investigative journalist or perhaps a lawyer (in a good way). Obviously not trying to beat someone up just asking pertinent important questions (Phil questions?) however also supporting your position by doing your homework.

If all you do is listen to some guy on Fox or whatever spoon feeding you their position supported or MOST LIKELY UNSUPPORTED, but you never investigate the issue then it's easy to make an un-informed and or uneducated opinion.

Not everyone is built to be a fcking leader. Obama is not your leader and the same CIA killers who assassinated John Kennedy, probably his brother and Reverend Martin Luther King are the same people who control Obama. Papa George H Bush was the head of the CIA when Kennedy was taken out.

NO ONE escape the violence and murder on corporate TV. I remember watching a football playoff game 1 Sunday afternoon and they kept plugging a female folk guitar who mysteriously is killed..over and over showing face before she's killed or.. There is no escape from their drum beat to how it should play out in your American mind.

Taking out bank heads, oil barons, and the people who sell bombs and bullets would be a good attention getter and I'm surprised no one thought of it yet. What I agree with is that a mass number of people rising up will cause a change. Just enough to evoke fear into this fcking ruling class of greedy treasonous criminal liars. If 1 person rises up as opposed to a group, they will be taken down by trained killers or the mafia, and then a bushit cover-up of lies will be their final chapter. Fun stuff.

Word of caution to you New World Order Illuminati shitbags (DO NOT TAKE THIS EMAIL OUT OF CONTEXT): I know U think you got all bases covered now HOWEVER.. you corner some people who have no way out and they will find a way out.

I think people have to remember that you can change. You learn a new of facts or a given situation changes and you change or adapt. The whole idea that you stick with something that doesn't work creates an infinite set of problems not to mention going against the flow of the universe.

As much as I vilified the Commander In Chief of the corporation of the United States, it's the people who control him who require revolution. Could Obama change his pro-Bushit war stance? A lot of people are gonna die and his decision affects my immediate family.

Of course he didn't run on that idea but make no mistake, he knew what he was getting into when he signed on. The US war machine is a fcking big Goliath and my middle name is David.

I downloaded the data been importing and whipped out grep on some crap and I gotta say so far I found some questionable stuff. MIND YOU THIS IS JUST ME ~phil 5 Min's into LOOKING WITH ZTREE AND OTHER TOOLS, WHILE HAVING A COFFEE AND SMOKE .

EXAMPLE 1

To: mann@snow.geo.umass.edu
Subject: (Fwd) more on S.America
From: "Malcolm Hughes"
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:22:00 +0000
Mike - the only one of the new S.American chronologies I just sent you that already appears in the ITRDB sets you already have is ARGE30. You should remove this from the two ITRDB data sets, as the new version should be different (and better for our purposes)
Cheers, Malcolm
Malcolm K. Hughes
Director
Laboratory of Tree-Ring Research
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721
Telephone 520 621-6470
fax 520 621-8229
e-mail mhughes@ltrr.arizona.edu

my (~phil) comments so far?

ORIGIN: Celtic Tree Magic
- I'll just crashmail ya again!

O

anyway, comeon I can also see how it might have been some project or result they were working on
and the results were indeed irrelevant. But the guy uses the phrase "better for our purposes"

mind you I haven't even begun to really dig here.. Maybe some v0dsky would be better?

To: mann@snow.geo.umass.edu
Subject: Russian files
From: "Malcolm Hughes"
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:33:49 +0000

Mike - you should find 62 files at ftp.ltrr.arizona.edu, directory
sys/home/outgoing/mhughes/mann/russia.
( ~phil my edit for clarification: ftp.ltrr.arizona.edu/sys/home/outgoing/mhughes/mann/russia . all children should learn ftp -imo)

The file sib.dat contains the sequence numbers, three-letter site code, longitude and latitude for the 61 chronologies from Vaganov et al, comma-separated. As I typed thesein it would be wise to check that the three letter code is found in the first line of the file names sequence number.txt, e.g. 26.txt should be SOB, etc.

The other 61 files are hte chronologies in the wierd format we discussed earlier.

Of these, I would certainly remove the following, as they are better covered by the Yakutia series you already have from me:
(Comment: ~phil . Sound's like they know what their talking about. Except I don't know what Yakutia is . anywho, enjoy the new acronyms)
18, KIL
19, ALL
20, INP
21, NAN

Now, we do not know what the internal replication is, but, at a wild guess, I would hope that series starting by 1570 sould be reasonably
replicated by 1625. I would include these, and their file numbers are:
26, 6, 31, 32, 41, 10, 11, 12, 15, 42, 44, 46, 47, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 16, 17, 22, 23, 25, 55, 56, 57, 59, 61.
For the present (1625 on) exercise I would exclude all the others.
Cheers, Malcolm
Malcolm K. Hughes
Director
Laboratory of Tree-Ring Research
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721
Telephone 520 621-6470
fax 520 621-8229
e-mail mhughes@ltrr.arizona.edu

ORIGIN: A wild guess.
-

However there are headers!

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Or
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They also seem to name files similar to the way I do. 1.txt 2.txt etc, That's smart even if something else fails.

Like...
Note: the following IEEE floating-point arithmetic exceptions occurred and were never cleared; see ieee_flags(3M):
Inexact; Division by Zero; Underflow; Overflow; Invalid Operand;
Note: Rounding direction toward zero; see ieee_flags(3M).
Note: Rounding direction toward positive; see ieee_flags(3M).
Note: Rounding direction toward negative; see ieee_flags(3M).
Note: Extended rounding to double precision; see ieee_flags(3M).
Note: Extended rounding to single precision; see ieee_flags(3M).
Note: this program was linked with -fast or -fnonstd and so may have produced nonstandard floating-point results.
Note: Following IEEE floating-point traps enabled; see ieee_handler(3M):
Inexact; Underflow; Overflow; Division by Zero; Invalid Operand;
Note: nonstandard floating-point arithmetic mode was enabled and was never cleared; see ieee_functions(3M).
Sun's implementation of IEEE arithmetic is discussed in the Numerical Computation Guide.
Floating point exception %x, %s, occurred at address %p.

OKay it's given, that's part of how an ELF file runs but, wtf with the default error messages holy crap, sounds like programmer's choice to me..

But I am just a dum dum

Oh hell. Please don't burn me at the stake. but I forgot to say the exact file I am looking at

http://88.80.16.63/leak/...unit-foi-leaked-data.zip

I'm noticing lots of filters.
EX
if trv eq 3 then begin
;
; Replace MXD with age-banded MXD (cutting out an appropriate period!)
;
kmxd=where((yrmxd ge timey(0)) and (yrmxd le timey(nyr-1)),nmxd)
bestmxd=fullmxd(kmxd,*)
print,yrmxd(kmxd)
;
endif

On AGW: I'm an engineer by training and a scientist at heart. I'm also in favor of conserving our natural recourses and breaking up large, too powerful, corporations, but I must say I'm on Phil's and Brian's side on the science of global warming.

I've read the emails, understand the context, have reviewed the science of the skeptics (there's plenty of it), and reviewed the empirical data. I don't listen to the right wing corporate cover-up artists.

Whether you are a skeptic or a proponent of AGW comes down to whether you understand the science or believe the fear mongers and political opportunists.

The fear mongers might be partly right, but the science is definitely not settled.

One thing I'm sure of is if the scientific debate is stymied the political policies will be bad for us all and that is my major concern.

Here's a searchable data base of the emails and a scientific paper on why CO2 does not cause warming. These are just the tip of the iceberg (no pun intended).

http://www.eastangliaemails.com/search.php
http://arxiv.org/PS_cach...pdf/0707/0707.1161v4.pdf

Do the hard work and I think you'll come to the same conclusion.

Phil, as you go through the emails and the coding, also take the time to then go through and read the responses of the authors of the emails to understand the context --- a third party opinion of "what they really meant" is irrelevant without first understanding the context from the authors themselves. The comments sections are long but contain a vigorous, informative question & response in which the scientists themselves answer to their critics, and additional background and sources.

The journal Nature has a good editorial that summarizes what is (and more importantly) what is not in the hacked emails. (more detail at the link, of course):

This is a detailed discussion that's a little more free-wheeling that addreses the tree ring data specifically (including "hide the decline") in accessible language, also with an illuminating comments section.

Popular Mechanics weighs in:

Then check this: A Climate Scientists Who Engages Skeptics for a sense of the how the discipline might move forward.

Along the way, if you find any studies or field data from all the other earth systems disciplines that, to use PM's phrasing, takes away any of the "49 or 50 other cards", please share.

Again, we're only focusing on the scientific evidence here, not the policy implications, which is a separate issue.

Phil @ various comments RE: Climate Change....

Come on man...does the phrase
"penny wise but pound foolish" ring a bell ?

Brad and others asked you to factor in *context* to the emails in question...you haven't included context yet in any of your critiques.

Most of the mumbo jumbo you've posted here is undecipherable....because it has NO CONTEXT.

geez

Onyx, I'm sure these folks would take great exception to your pronouncement they simply don't "understand the science". They think we have a problem. How many, and how much, of the other multiple threads of evidence in the other earth systems disciplines (the other"49 or 50 cards") have you evaluated?

Also, please check out the new report from the Center for Public Integrity, Toward a Stalemate in Copenhagen: How Industry Pressures and National Agendas Dim Prospects for a Climate Treaty --- Inside the Battle to Influence the Most Important Environmental Treaty of Our Time.

I think Tunga nailed it (to get back to Obamastan. Where is the anger of the '60's? So let's revisit Country Joe & the Fish's lyrics in total, with only a few slight changes:

Well, come on all of you, big strong men,
Uncle Sam needs your help again.
He's got himself in a terrible jam
Way down yonder in Af-i-stan
So put down your books and pick up a gun,
We're gonna have a whole lotta fun.

And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Af-i-stan;
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why,
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.

Come on Wall Street, don't be slow,
Why man, this is war a-go-go
There's plenty good money to be made
By supplying the Army with the tools of its trade,
But just hope and pray that if they drop the bomb,
They drop it on the Taliban.

And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Af-i-stan.
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.

Well, come on generals, let's move fast;
Your big chance has come at last.
Now you can go out and get those heads
'Cause the only good raghead is the one that's dead
And you know that peace can only be won
When we've blown 'em all to kingdom come.

And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Af-i-stan;
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.

Come on mothers throughout the land,
Pack your boys off to Af-i-stan.
Come on fathers, and don't hesitate
To send your sons off before it's too late.
And you can be the first one on your block
To have your boy come home in a box.

And it's one, two, three
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Af-i-stan.
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why,
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.

Private hacked email INTERPRETATIONS sheds light on a climate scientists support of the greenhouse effect? Man's contributing factor? The final outcome as a rapidly approaching catastrophic of the planet's inability for it's natural AC to continue working? Man's ability to avoid this outcome? Finally, the effect of this process on massive extinctions to other life species in the very near future do to ecosystem changes etc, etc?

Yeh, good to see that Popular Mechanics magazine has weighed in ESPECIALLY AFTER THEIR CONVINCING PROPAGANDA IN SUPPORT OF THE OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT COVER-UP VERSION OF 9-11 WHERE THESE MUTHER FCKERS DID THEIR BEST TO LIE AND MISLEAD PEOPLE.

NOT APOLOGY FOR THE THEORETICAL LIES USED TO EXPLAIN HOW THE 3 STEEL CONCRETE W.T.T. BUILDINGS COLLAPSED INTO THEIR OWN FOOTPRINT WITHOUT BOMBS IN SECONDS.
ALL THE MISSING EVIDENCE THEY OMITTED TO EXPLAIN TO PEOPLE THEY DIDN'T SEE what they just saw AND HEAR what they just heard. CONTROLLED DEMOLITION.
NOTHING RETRACTED LET ALONE CURRENT PUBLISHED PEER REVIEW PAPERS SUCH AS STEVEN JONE'S CLOSED CASE EVIDENCE FOR THE USE OF NANO-THERMATE.

All the columns had to be taken out for this occur to bring down these buildings. Or now a few fires that burned hundreds of degrees cooler like the hydro-carbon jet fuel can melt steel and do what only a handful of demolition experts can accomplish. Cannot fcking happen.

While this RAG may have done good work at sometime in THEIR history, be careful ever putting much faith in this corporate controlled propaganda machine that is involved with the self-serving interests of WHITE ALQUIDA responsible for 9-11 war games.

Just my two cents's worth on Abomina's Afghanistan decision: There is a delicious irony in the fact that the US created Al Quaeda for the purpose of luring the Soviet Union into a quagmire and then harassing the Soviets to the point where they had to frun for home, tails between their legs, their country approaching bankruptcy, I mean, that was our Cold War strategy to defeat the Soviets, because we KNEW that "winning" in Afghanistan was an utter impossibility. The cabal of neocons who came up with this despicable strategy are still around, and running things behind the scenes, so how come they ordered the Smirky/Sneery administration into the very same trap? My guess is that it was hubris and greed, greed for the fossil fuel reserves around the Caspian Sea and hubris in that they must have believed they could get away with yet another huge gas station heist. Whatever, it was a tragic blunder, and Abomina just prolonged the agony indefinitely. He should have fired McMeth and Betrayus, he just had his chance, and he blew it. Payback's gonna be a bitch...

czaragorn @109

Karma is a muthaf*cka...

I'm just glad that I don't have to walk in a greedy-banker-neocon chickenhawk's shoes...

There is reciprocity in the Universe...

Okay in fairness my #99 has no context.
Ya stung me, I dug quick and mouthed off.

and my #100 is standard crap from an ELF file. (as someone said, giberish) it IS other than a reminder there are different floats. I went off on numeric variables stupidly. delete if you want

I WILL ADMIT WHEN I AM WRONG.

However #102 above doesn't need context, being a filter which links to several complex variables, it needs a thorough understanding of the variables used, and likely an understanding of all the terms and what the variables represent.
A bit over my head, to be honest. That isn't to say I couldn't waste a few years on it and learn it.

Such filters in the code are going to bring up questions. The more filters the more chances for bad data -IMO (and I also see this same sentiment in one of the .txt files)

Overall in context from the several hundred .txt's , *.pro files, and *.dat and the few hours now I have looked at this material, I would have to say a few trains of thought hit me.

The Dat files are useless to me, cause I don't have a clue what they are. Sure Rings or Vapor or whatever times and geo locations but the numbers mean nothing to my poor old small brain. That doesn't mean they are wrong either. And I do vaguely understand why your looking at tree rings, It means I don't know what these numeric variables mean in the program.

As it stands, I can't visualize it.

Another idea hit me being there is a spirit of truly wanting to get data and crunch it in a real multi-language and multi-country environment and yet still be a "team effort" kind of way. It's what I would call your basic 1960's era JPL/NASA hard at work scientist ethic. Breaking structured parts down and refining them to those who know the best, or are just geographically collecting and that's where they desire to live. It takes leaders and it takes smart people under such leadership.

On the other hand I found discussions which look like a programmer's frustrated notes on creating and having to debug annoying code which isn't spewing out what is desired. Harry_READ_ME.txt listing problems, failures, and success in relation to some kind of expected result. Lot of climate terminology, and acronyms I don't understand, because I never heard of. But the context seems to be of trying to reach a specific result . only the programmer and scientist seems to know what the result array represents . Appears they recognize "something" quickly by the X%-Y% and suggest "Champaign" Meanwhile still have problems

I also see several damage control conversations, where it's clearly an attempt to hide data. In fact grep though all files for the word "hide" is what brought me straight to it. With a particularly interesting doc found here

\FOIA\mail\1107454306.txt

I see what appears to be clarification on how to milk the system somehow. I guess for personal profit and enjoyment. I guess there's no law against ski trips. Might as well have a clean mind before you work.

Yet I also see what looked like folks who just wanted to contribute for their own intellect and benefit. (at least it appeared that way when (they kind of pop in with an email like on an email list) in context to me, however it could be bad too who knows)

At the same time I see someone wanted to control information by erasing history, or already has. And also painting targets on specific people. Like kicking or Locking them out.

While I can pick out some things code is doing, I would be lying if I said I understood the whole thing. The filters worry me though..

I guess I have taken sides after all. Forced to. While I love EARTH, and I don't want to be wrong.

I would not blindly accept any of this data in it's current form, or any form which is based on this current form I am seeing; especially in regards to signing any global agreements and binding us to a new monetary bill and and or laws.

Want to put the current version all out there and have everyone sort through it, before big decisions are made based on it.

I'm sorry but that's where I stand. This issue forces you to pick a side if you delve in. That doesn't mean I couldn't switch sides if I see evidence which convinces me AGW to be real. But this doesn't do it for me currently. As a human, I have seen changes in weather right where I live, I am not dumb in that respect, I watch my trees and plants and I can tell if they are having a good or bad time. So Weather Changes I get it. I see it. But did man cause it? I'm not convinced. What's HAARP up to? and the spraying in the sky... I ask again

There must be far more qualified folks to grep this current material than myself.

I get the basic concept here for generating the data.
BEGIN
Raw Data In .. Adjustment and Format .. Call and Apply Filters SubRoutines .. Print SubRoutines .. END

A basic structured program, with several parties working different parts.

But I know squat of the values and terminology being used measured etc. Therefore I am really limited to points of interest like obscure comments, and remarks in the code to give hints.
Also this is not an issue I have followed over the years. Electronic voting machines, sure, you betcha. Following Global warming on the other hand.. Or I guess the proper term is AGW .. Not so much.

It was just boom, OPEN THREAD night and here we are

I think it's important to take a breath, and balance what resources our country has and come up with a balance. We have several combat zones and monetary system based on a destructive drunken sailor mentality, perhaps we should stop serving alcohol and pay for all the broken glass at home before we take on the entire planet blindly.

Folks who read, will have to find the context for themselves, and balance it with or against their own beliefs -imo.

One last thought, if it's a GLOBAL ISSUE shouldn't every human on earth vote on it?

GBD @ #97, thanks. I was marveling sometime later about managing to put it so succinctly... not my strong suit!

Bippy and BlueHawk

The only flaw in this reasoning I can see is that, while, yes, it is karmic, the perps in point could care less. They're not the ones dying over it. They don't give a rat's ass how many are murdered, ruined, maimed, displaced and starved to death behind their fun and games. Monetization itself is institutionalized greed, hate and delusion, and this is all expected, the "natural" sequela of engaging so avidly in that program.

Give me the money that has been spent in war
and I will clothe every man, woman, and child in an attire of
which kings and queens will be proud.
I will build a schoolhouse in every valley over the whole earth.
I will crown every hillside with a place of worship consecrated to peace
- Charles Sumner -

Phil @111

I'm sorry but that's where I stand. This issue forces you to pick a side if you delve in. That doesn't mean I couldn't switch sides if I see evidence which convinces me AGW to be real

That's a perfectly reasoned position. I wish more folks were so rational.

I would suggest that you don't rely on simply the hacked emails. Read various sources from both sides of the issue.

From my perspective...most folks (scientists) agree climate change is happening...the only debate is what's the cause; natural cycle or human causes.

But that's from where I sit...I'm not a scientist...but I am a man of reasonable intellect.

Agent 99 @113

Exactly...

Don't know why ClimateGate is on this thread but I posted a comment on the Green News thread which shows the duplicity of the main "gatekeeper" discredited scientists, i.e. Jones and others, which suppressed papers from scientists which didn't tow the party line of IPCC politics.

What Brad, Des, and others are in denial about is that those CRU scientists did alot of damage to the global warming movement and many people here just don't want to admit it or deal with it.

Might as well post a copy oh the comment since it's short:

From Dr. R Pielke Sr.'s blog,
the following,

Comment On The Inaccurate Response By Gavin Schmidt Of Real Climate On The Role of Land Use Change On Temperature Trends

, is about Gavin Schmidt who runs the site "Real Climate" http://www.realclimate.org

This reply by Gavin, besides ignoring (e.g. Fall et al 2009) and his trivializing (e.g. Stone Jr 2009) peer reviewed papers that disagree with his perspective, his comment also shows that he has learned little from the exposure of the inappropriate attempt by Phil Jones and colleagues to serve as gatekeepers to climate science issues.

Since Gavin Schmidt is not a recognized expert on the role of land use/land cover change, he should have sought a qualified climate scientist to address the comment by CCPO. Instead, he perpetuates the biased and often inaccurate presentation of climate views on Real Climate.

Sometimes yahoos can be brilliant...these guys schtick is hilarious...but they get the message across in an entertaining manner...hell it may be a good way to reach the masses...

Phil: I watch my trees and plants and I can tell if they are having a good or bad time.

That's right we are all connected:-).

Phil: One last thought, if it's a GLOBAL ISSUE shouldn't every human on earth vote on it?

Everyone DOES NOT have the power to control what goes on in the world. As you know, that power rests in the hands of a few.

Phil: On re-thinking your opinion about an earlier post. That's cool. That's human and it's hard to admit your wrong sometimes but it was the right thing to do. And you feel better afterwards because it also becomes a relief. You're setting the record straight and changing your opinion to what you believe is truthful.

The despicable individuals in the Bush administration who acted as political representatives of the ILLUMINATI/NEW WORLD ORDER have NEVER had any admissionS of wrong-doingS for their lies or actions EVER. These people are still allowed to be free and enjoy the full rights and privileges "still" guaranteed as America citizens.

Unfortunately,treasonous lying murderers like Bush, Cheney, and Rice and Rove can still voices their opinions openly and still do so in their corporate mass media and the Faux News channel.

I am still waiting for liberty and justice for the 1st 3000 spirits they sacrificed on 9-11-2001 and all those lost and wounded in THEIR wars that followed.

These people have Obama by the balls but we will see how him and wife react to living Bush's lies to the extent that HIS DECISION will be prolonging all this senseless bloodshed now on his hands.

WHILE WE'RE ON THE SUBJECT OF OBUMMERSTAN....

You do NOT want to miss this video.

Konstantin, the Pielke thread does NOT show "the duplicity of the main "gatekeeper" discredited scientists, i.e. Jones and others, which suppressed papers from scientists which didn't tow the party line of IPCC politics."

First off, it's "toe" the party line, FYI.

Pielke does not call the CRU scientists "discredited" --- those are your words, not his. The papers that he references were actually included in the latest IPCC report.

Pielke also clearly states in his response to Michael Schlesinger:

Pielke is climatologist at a respected research institution, and makes it clear that his own peer-reviewed research leads him to disagrees mightily with the statement that the science on CO2 forcing is settled, he also states, very clearly his conclusions from his research:

Tanks for sharing the video. Matt's actual final remark should be, "idealogically speaking the government wrote the biggest predatory lenders responsible for the mortgage and financial collapse a blank check for millions of dollars. No oversight by Congress or anyone, required changes in lending practices, or even that the money should be used to GOOD LOANS.

Instead, some of the worst people responsible for the US economic crisis are not only still playa-s but have been reward with important positions of power on TEAM OBAMA. Sound familiar? Remember attorney Alberto Gonzalez and Condolezza Rice? Lie and cover-up for the Bushit administration and receive a raise and a promotion.

The most telling part was how changes have been made so the Executive branch could now bail out the top 20 25? financial institutions no longer requiring the consent of the sellout robot in Congress.

Way to go Obama! You da man and you give White Alqueda a black face.

Des @ comment #121,

Glad you finally read Pielke's post.

You're right Pielke doesn't call the the CRU scientists discredited but I do and think they are discredited. I think we'll see the science community agreeing in the coming days and weeks.

Des the particular post I linked to is not about excluding Pielke's papers. Otehr CRU ClimateGate emails talk about that. What I wanted to show in the post I linked to is that the unwarranted bias of the IPCC clique and Gavin Schmidt who runs the site "Real Climate" http://www.realclimate.org

Pielke says it well in his conclusion:

This reply by Gavin, besides ignoring (e.g. Fall et al 2009) and his trivializing (e.g. Stone Jr 2009) peer reviewed papers that disagree with his perspective, his comment also shows that he has learned little from the exposure of the inappropriate attempt by Phil Jones and colleagues to serve as gatekeepers to climate science issues.

Since Gavin Schmidt is not a recognized expert on the role of land use/land cover change, he should have sought a qualified climate scientist to address the comment by CCPO. Instead, he perpetuates the biased and often inaccurate presentation of climate views on Real Climate.

Konstantin @ 117 said:

What Brad, Des, and others are in denial about is that those CRU scientists did alot of damage to the global warming movement.

I'll respond the way I responded when u posted the exact same comment in another thread: Who is disagreeing with that?

Though I'll add: the real damage was done by the folks who stole scientists private emails, released them selectively, and mispresented to a bunch of gullible folks who wanted as much to believe that global warming is a hoax, as they want to believe that ACORN commits voter fraud and that there were WMD in Iraq.

Carry on. But please don't make stuff up on behalf of Des or myself, you've got more than enough stuff you can make up about global warming being a "sham" and the emails that "prove it", etc. Thanks!

Konstantin @ 123 said:

Glad you finally read Pielke's post.

Read it a long time ago, the first time you posted it. It was equally unremarkable then as it is now.

You're right Pielke doesn't call the the CRU scientists discredited but I do and think they are discredited.

Ah, well, that settles it then. They are discredited. Because Konstantin says so. Very impressive stuff there, Konst.

I think we'll see the science community agreeing in the coming days and weeks.

As we will find evidence that ACORN is stealing elections, and there are WMD in Iraq. It's just that all these "scientists" and "evidence lovers" are so darn impatient.

Sigh...

Brad @ #124,

Carry on. But please don't make stuff up on behalf of Des or myself, you've got more than enough stuff you can make up about global warming being a "sham" and the emails that "prove it", etc. Thanks!

Brad please don't make stuff up about me. I never said global warming was a "sham" or that the hacked emails prove it. Other commenters have said that not me. The reason I said you and Des and other seem to be in denial is cause I read the same basic talking points on the net about ClimateGate.

Though I'll add: the real damage was done by the folks who stole scientists private emails, released them selectively, and mispresented to a bunch of gullible folks who wanted as much to believe that global warming is a hoax, as they want to believe that ACORN commits voter fraud and that there were WMD in Iraq.

Sounds like denial to me. Those "private emails" showed scientific misconduct and possibly scientific fraud (to be determined). I don't think they released them selectively but I'm guessing they're just a random sample of email.
I haven't looked into what their motives are, if they said so at all, but I don't think it has anything to do with "convincing gullible folks".
I doubt the so called folks understand anything of the science the emails.
I think they probably did it cause CRU was refusing to show their data and science should never be done in secret.
Wouldn't you agree science should be transparent just like our government should be transparent?

What does Iraq and Acorn have to do with the topic of the comments I made on ClimateGate?
I think I know more about science than you as you know more about politics than me.

KONSTANTIN

Cease and desist with your AGW comments on this thread. Keep them on the GNR thread. You are forcing me to duplicate my efforts and I'm getting mad.

My comment from the GNR thread:

You guys don't seem to grok that even if the intent of the scientists whose emails were hacked was nefarious, and there's no solid ground for this assertion once you've read the emails, it cannot have had an effect on the global consensus. The head of the IPCC put out a statement to make that abundantly clear:

In summary, no individual or small group of scientists is in a position to exclude a peer-reviewed paper from an I.P.C.C. assessment. Likewise, individuals and small groups have no ability to emphasize a result that is not consistent with a range of studies, investigations, and approaches. Every layer in the process (including large author teams, extensive review, independent monitoring of review compliance, and plenary approval by governments) plays a major role in keeping I.P.C.C. assessments comprehensive, unbiased, open to the identification of new literature, and policy relevant but not policy prescriptive.

This is a flipping seriously annoying tempest in a teapot... based on a concerted effort to bamboozle the public... and the hacker/s should be dealt with as severely as the law permits.

The one thing I find horrifying about the IPCC position is that they are running all their stuff by governments before putting it out for our consumption. THAT does shake my confidence in them.

So, Konstantin, whether or not the scientists in question are duplicitous, you don't have a leg to stand on here.

THAT MUCH IS CRYSTAL CLEAR.

==========================

Even though this is technically an open thread, it was meant to be open regarding things "Obamastan" and not the climate trolling.

EVERYONE, MOVE THE CLIMATE TROLLING TO GREEN NEWS REPORT THREADS.

Afghanistan: The betrayal

Brad: Excellent posts @ 124 and 125. What I seem to notice is that when put on the the defense as opposed to playing the straight set up guy, a defiance with a sense of humor usually comes out that kicks ace. It's just good writing. You deserve a bronze head bust someday just like other great American patriots or at least to be chiseled next to Washington and Jefferson on Mt. Rushmore.

Thank you for Bradblog.

Bluehawk @ 128: Read the slightly disillusioned blow hard book scholar's article although he definitely appears in the dark about who's steering the ship and missed important facts in his version of modern Obamanational history.

Where author Garry Wills misfires, there are a some very astute observation in the blog section. People who fully understand the 1 party RepubliDem party choice, Diebold controlled and rigged big money elections, and the uselessness of a 3rd party candidate in the current model of elections.

For example, Presidential Democratic candidate Dennis Kucinich wanted to pull U.S. forces back home, and he was completely cut out of the presidential debates when aired on CORPORATE TV.

That's right.. all Americans own the public airwaves but a few big private corporations own the major networks.

Big fcking score.. Illuminati killers. Monopoly of a few and the CBS eye is watching you.

You know why most people don't know 3 World Trade Centers collapsed on 9-11? Why Grizz?

Because network television didn't cover the traditional controlled demolition of the 47 story steel concrete building that collapsed into it's own footprint although not hit by a plane AFTER THE 1ST DAY.

Grizz, you mean the asymetrical skyscraper fell in only 6.5 seconds but no networks showed this building falling on TV?

Yes the corporate mass media did not show the textbook demolition of World Trade Tower Building #7 because it would not fit the government's cover-up story.

Please no questions. Only Martians and celebrity tragedy are to be exploited.. not the truth about something of importance that could jeopardize the New World Order empire.

PHILIP ZELiCOW who over-saw the 9-11 Commission Report made sure there was no inclusion of World Trade Tower Building #7's complete pulverization into steel and dust in the 700 page official report.

While Towers 1 and 2 were non-traditional controlled demolitions since the roofs ejected debris like a cannon destroying everything into sizes no larger than 2 inches long.

While bone fragments were found 500 feet away on the roof of the Deutch Bank there was not even stacks of floors 1 acre in size because even though some would be destroyed by the gravitational force, they were completely blown to bits before 1 floor could even hit the next.

So Grizz, The people who did 9-11 are still running the country.

That's right Bradblog, and these people are still making money off of wars that that that they started.

Grizzley Bear @130

Where author Garry Wills misfires, there are a some very astute observation in the blog section. People who fully understand the 1 party RepubliDem party choice, Diebold controlled and rigged big money elections, and the uselessness of a 3rd party candidate in the current model of elections.

Absolutely...CommonDreams.org commenters are for the most part very astute...just like Bradblog...the commenters at Bradblog however write much better.

The articles at CoomonDreams are of a more mainstream nature...

Essentially I was giving Agent 99 a hand by trying to drag the discussion back to Obama's pantsy assed betrayal.

I think it's wierd that Obama chose almost the same words and phrases that Bush used. Does he have the same speech writers?

I liked the Wills piece. I found it comforting evidence that some of the hypnotized are finally starting to snap out of it. And, I appreciate the help getting the discussion back on the rails.

Konstantin, clearly, they are implanting chips in our presidents now and the speech writers are in total control....

Seriously 99 you don't think it's weird?

Holy shiiiiiiiit! Jane Hamsher took out a can of whoopass on these bastards on Democracy Now! today! OMG

Beeeeeeautiful. Whoa. RIGHT ON, JANE!

[Yes, Konstantin. I actually think it's worse than weird... as we were all talking about upthread.]

GBD - I don't say much about it these days, but I just want to add that I am, and have been for years...since I saw Ruppert's lecture at Portland State in 11/01...completely in sync with your comments. I think others who may also be in sync simply don't know what to do, don't know what to say, can't bring it up in polite conversation with coworkers (not that I haven't tried numerous times, in days past), fear the ostracization from mainstream America, and so on. The funny thing is, even with the BYU prof, Ruppert, Fahrenheit 9-11 at least connecting it to endless war and profit, 911patriots testimony, and on and on...crazy shit like Operation Northwoods, the lack of positively identifiable debris in PA and at the Pentagon, Building 7, out of place explosions, jey fuel, thermite, the insurance policy, the gold in the vaults, WTC debris shipped to China with no forensic analysis, I mean there's so fucking much! - people are still more comfortable buying into a government report that investigated NOTHING OF VALUE. It goes so far beyond any notion of incompetence.

Anyway, just wanted to voice my support, don't want you to think you are raging on the mountaintop alone.

SR

Soul Rebel @136...RE: GBD at 130

Count me in too...I hear you GDB. You're not alone.

I would say, "Fuck him," but --- oh, what the hell --- Fuck him!

The war in Afghanistan is also a continuation and expansion of the corporate welfare policy of the Bush administration, which interestingly is not only wholly accepted by President Obama, but is raised to a higher level (surge). The more private contractors sent to Afghanistan, the better for the bottom line (surge) (profit). The more the merrier. Bush or Obama, as always, the interest of the corporate elite is paramount.

The decrease in violence in Iraq was not a result of President Bush’s strategy of sending 30,000 more troops to Iraq (surge), that President Obama is so desperately trying to duplicate, but it was mainly a result of the U.S. government’s payment of about $10 a day to about 70,000 Sunni insurgents.

During his speech to the nation explaining his reasons for the Afghanistan “surge”, the president said:

“So, no, I do not make this decision lightly. I make this decision because I am convinced that our security is at stake in Afghanistan and Pakistan. This is the epicenter of violent extremism practiced by al Qaeda. It is from here that we were attacked on 9/11, and it is from here that new attacks are being plotted as I speak. … In the last few months alone, we have apprehended extremists within our borders who were sent here from the border region of Afghanistan and Pakistan to commit new acts of terror. And this danger will only grow if the region slides backwards, and al Qaeda can operate with impunity. We must keep the pressure on al Qaeda, and to do that, we must increase the stability and capacity of our partners in the region.”

I thought I was listening to President Bush. Word for word the same message, but, a different messenger, one who is more articulate. He also used Bush’s tactic of scaring the American public, the danger to America “is no idle danger, no hypothetical threat”. The only thing missing from his speech was that, he didn’t use the threat level colors. It is too early in his presidency; we might still see him use the threat levels in the future.

The president’s troop” surge” in the Afghanistan war has made his Conservative Republican friends temporarily happy, but members of his own political party and the American citizens at large are not supportive of his so-called “surge”. While America is facing a massive unemployment, millions of citizens without health insurance, the country burdened with cumbersome and chocking growing debt, to say the least, the president’s choice of the Afghanistan “surge” at this particular moment, seems to be unwise.

Professor Mekonen Haddis