READER COMMENTS ON
"Hate Speech and the Process of Dehumanization: A FOLLOW-UP"
(29 Responses so far...)
COMMENT #1 [Permalink]
...
Floridiot
said on 8/21/2009 @ 5:13 am PT...
COMMENT #2 [Permalink]
...
Big Dan
said on 8/21/2009 @ 7:35 am PT...
COMMENT #3 [Permalink]
...
Big Dan
said on 8/21/2009 @ 7:37 am PT...
COMMENT #4 [Permalink]
...
Big Dan
said on 8/21/2009 @ 8:01 am PT...
COMMENT #5 [Permalink]
...
Big Dan
said on 8/21/2009 @ 8:45 am PT...
...or watch "Will 'n Grace" reruns...
COMMENT #6 [Permalink]
...
karen from illinois
said on 8/21/2009 @ 11:24 am PT...
very informative peice but it isn't just the arabs,or the blacks "they" do this to
my dad taught me,"when the goverment tries to take your rights away,they don't start with a popular group,they start with a group it is easy to make look bad"(dehumanize)
recent examples would include
drunk drivers which produced road blocks and saftey check points
drug addicts which produced mandatory piss tests for just about any job
sex offenders which produced ex post facto punishments
and yes muslims which ended habeus corpus for American citizens with the treatment of padilla
COMMENT #7 [Permalink]
...
yuyuyuy
said on 8/21/2009 @ 1:58 pm PT...
{Ed Note: Comment by previously banned poster, deleted. A ban by this serial abuser is not lifted simply because he/she changes IPs/names each time he/she posts. - EAC}
COMMENT #8 [Permalink]
...
Baleegh
said on 8/22/2009 @ 3:59 am PT...
Dear writer,
I am a Yemeni citizen and i am not with what you wrote on this blog, as we [ the Yemenis] are not like what you say as a terrorist who want to kill all Americans.
Do u have mind to say that we want to kill Americans .
We are Muslims and do not kill anyone even if the killers of Iraqis and Afghans [of course you]. We are not like you killers.
regards,
Baleegh.
By the way I have two U.S. brothers
COMMENT #9 [Permalink]
...
Ernest A. Canning
said on 8/22/2009 @ 5:01 am PT...
Baleegh:
I am truly disappointed that you so completely misunderstood the words I wrote. Perhaps it is a language barrier.
I did not suggest that all Yemenis are terrorists --- just the opposite.
The words I wrote were not my words. They were the words used by Professor Jack Shaheen, a Lebanese-American, to describe the motion picture Rules of Engagement that falsely depicts all Arabs and Muslims as terrorists.
I am troubled by your use of the words, "you killers."
Do you not understand that there are many Americans, like me, who are opposed the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? Do you think that everyone in America wants to kill Iraqis and Afghans?
COMMENT #10 [Permalink]
...
Agent 99
said on 8/22/2009 @ 1:00 pm PT...
I think maybe the world has some grounds to call us all killers, Ernie. It is within our power to stop the people conducting all these extermination campaigns some call "military adventures" and we have not. We wring our hands about it, or decide to believe the lies for excuses they give, or yell and hiss and spit about it, but we do not unite and STOP it. It would, of course, help if the people getting all this air time were reporting truthfully on such matters, but they're whipping the partisans into frenzies instead... helping keep our eyes off actuality... and continuing to be able to march in anywhere and murder anyone standing in the way of us and our profit is one of the reasons all this hate stuff is on the air waves. We're grownups! We are responsible. Complicit. Guilty. Since we haven't stopped them.
COMMENT #11 [Permalink]
...
Agent 99
said on 8/22/2009 @ 1:52 pm PT...
And, OMG, ANTIWAR.COM is going to tank if they don't raise twenty grand this weekend......
COMMENT #12 [Permalink]
...
ghostof911
said on 8/22/2009 @ 1:54 pm PT...
Baleegh @8
You are justified in calling us killers. A very large part of the US population condones and supports the horrors committed by our military and its contractors in the name of the phony "war on terror."
I apologize for the behavior of my government. As you are in Yemen, I am horrified by what it is doing.
COMMENT #13 [Permalink]
...
Ernest A. Canning
said on 8/22/2009 @ 1:54 pm PT...
I think, 99, one has to distinguish between such concepts as responsibility and guilt.
Perhaps it can be said that none of us has done enough to bring an end to the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan. And, in that sense, we all bear responsibility.
But you cannot apply guilt to people who have consistently opposed, spoken out against, marched, petitioned their representatives, organized etc., first to prevent these wars of choice and then to bring them to an end.
You cannot put even those who were deceived by the Bush regime and their minions in the corporate media into supporting the invasion where they falsely believed Iraq had links to 9/11 and posed an immediate threat into the same category as the amoral architects of imperial conquest.
You cannot imply guilt to the entirety of the American people for all the crimes carried out in their name, often under cover of secrecy.
One of the most basic cornerstones of Anglo-American jurisprudence is the concept of mens rea --- essentially criminal intent. That is why we, for example, make distinctions between justifiable homicide (as occurs in a valid self-defense case) and premeditated murder.
You cannot compare the guilt of a Blackwater mercenary who guns down innocent civilians with the responsibility of someone, like Lt. Erin Watata, who risked going to jail rather than serve in this unlawful, imperial conquest.
Where guilt can still arise is when those whom we elected to restore the rule of law not only avoid their oath of office by failing to bring the architects of the slaughter of more than one million Iraqis, of extraordinary rendition and torture before the bar of justice --- offering the non sequitor that we can only look forward and not back.
Worse, you can extend guilt to those who would continue this policy of imperial aggression.
If you fail to make this vital distinction between guilt and responsibility, you open the door to the argument that none of the perpetrators should be held accountable for their crimes because, in the view you posted, everyone is guilty --- and you can't possibly prosecute everyone (including the prosecutors, the judge and the jury).
COMMENT #14 [Permalink]
...
Agent 99
said on 8/22/2009 @ 3:03 pm PT...
From my Zen perspective, the criminal intent part comes in at the subconscious agreement to stay ignorant of such intolerable facts or excuse them somehow, in the interest of avoiding the harshness of the alternatives.
So, while you make an excellent point, America has to stop relying on the world to keep being understanding about the purity of our intentions. If we're a 10th as exceptional as we think we are, we will get this handled. And, everyone will be prosecuted for this... we kind of already are being prosecuted for it! Our sentence is slavery and hunger and homelessness and abjection to an insatiable élite....
It gets more depressing by the day.
COMMENT #15 [Permalink]
...
Steve
said on 8/22/2009 @ 7:26 pm PT...
99- I agree with Ernest that you do paint with too broad of a brush in your statements in comment #10 above. Saying we all bear the blame for the actions of our government and/or a miscreant part of our population is the same kind of distortion that Ernest is pointing out in his excellent post. It's really not different than Ann Coulter conflating the actions of nineteen 9/11 hijackers to the "Muslims killed 3000 Americans". Baleegh, the Yemeni citizen who commented above, does the same thing by completely misunderstanding (or not reading?) Mr Canning's post and then conflating the actions of our government (with the support of some Americans), into Americans in general. I do understand that actions of governments might more fairly reflect upon its people than actions of a smaller group of people or even a larger movement in a country. Despite that, and as I'm sure you know, our government no longer represents its citizens, it represents its corporate masters, many of whom profit tremendously from the the policies and wars our government brings to the rest of the planet. There is a tremendous effort in place in this country to keep the population struggling to keep their heads above water and dumbed down (e.g.- worthless, reality TV, a culture of celebrity, a completely failed and complicit corporate MSM). Those who see through the lies and understand the "game" can protest, they can call or write to those in power, they can organize and communicate with and try to inform others like this blog does. Certainly, many of us could/should try to do more of this. We can try to vote for change at the local level, but even local elections are more and more corrupted by money and special interests. Beyond the local election, it's all mostly a complete farce. We are only offered the candidates that the power brokers/corporations know will do their bidding, regardless of party affiliation and anyone who doesn't fall into that category is marginalized and portrayed as "out of the mainstream". Short of some kind of insurrection (and likely even if there was) there is little that we can do that can overcome the power and money that has been allowed to accumulate in corporate elite and the "tools" that that they finance to run for office and do their bidding. Such an insurrection is simply not going to happen under the circumstances because, unless there is a critical mass of people (and probably even if there was), any such effort in this country would be met with overwhelming force or at least penalties that most of us, with families and struggling to pay our mortgages, medical expenses, college (for our kids or for past student loans) and other expenses, are not willing to endure. You can say that makes us cowards but this is a very different world than in 1776 or even 1976. The ability of our government to monitor us or its perceived enemies and to exact horrible punishment on those it considers enemy (or conveniently and effectively brings its citizens to perceive as enemies) is unprecedented. The success of the US Military in Iraq would certainly, so far at least, argue against any notion (certainly my notions) that it is near impossible to defeat a large population, on its own homeland, that sees you as its subjugator.
Unfortunately, I think that as a country and a people, we are more screwed than we are able or willing to admit. The system is rigged and working outside the system is fraught with more danger and uncertainty than ever in our history. I speak for myself and certainly not for Mr. Canning or anyone else but I suspect my sentiments are more realistic (and fair to those of us opposed to our country's policies) than what you express above, even if these sentiments are bitterly pessimistic and somewhat defeatist. I would love to hear from those who disagree with me or might give me reason for more hope about our country's future.
COMMENT #16 [Permalink]
...
Agent 99
said on 8/22/2009 @ 7:55 pm PT...
I really hate always sounding like the hard ass in these matters, but my point is: Those are all excuses not to take effective action.
I agree with you so much I could almost copy and paste your comment, but the problem is that certain responsibilities are not lifted from our shoulders just because we might lose our job, or our family might be in danger. Humans have forever had the same problems to overcome... and in fact had to drop even more than we do today... in order to stand up and FORCE tyranny to end and justice to prevail.
Why do you think we've been beaten over the head with the stuff about family above all else? Do you think our Revolutionary soldiers didn't have families? That the masses who have risen against these same corporations in South America and India don't have families? Don't die like we do?
We can't just continue to avoid the kind of confrontation necessary to halt the carnage we pay for, we endorse with our tax dollars, with our sacred jobs and the food going in our kids' mouths, and expect the rest of the world to forgive us because we are almost as oppressed by our fascist government as they are.
Freedom is not easy, and it costs way more than almost anyone can bring themselves to admit.
I don't think I sound the least bit like Ann Coulter, or even the anti Ann Coulter.
COMMENT #17 [Permalink]
...
Big Dan
said on 8/22/2009 @ 7:59 pm PT...
Is it sort of like this: you take one comment by Mike Malloy (left) and say that the left is just as guilty of hate speech as the right? And leave out the part of QUANTITY: the rightwing controls the AM airwaves, they dominate lineups on every channel, they reach tens of millions more listeners...and simply say "It's the same" by picking out one phrase and justifying all the rightwing hate speech, instead of looking at it realistically by QUANTITY?
It's like comparing a drop of water vs. the ocean, and saying "both are water", they're the SAME.
That's an easy way to justify a bad position, and a tricky way to do it.
Or "Clinton did it, too", instead of addressing an issue...or saying "Chappaquidick" instead of addressing an issue.
As if, someone did something bad, so it justifies opening the floodgates and doing 100 things bad 100x as bad as the one thing you're comparing it to.
QUANTITY!
If you paint things black and white, you don't look at QUANTITY!
An inch is as good as a mile. One murder is as good as one million. One left slur is the same as one million right slurs.
In general, I think everyone knows, the hate speech comes from the right. That's part of what being "left" is, the "left" is not know for hate speech. And to say "they're the same" is a travesty which justifies all the hate speech of the right.
Don't confuse "dehumanizing hate speech" with hating what someone is saying. If you're a righty and you hate what Thom Hartmann is saying, that's not "dehumanizing hate speech" that Hartmann is doing. If he's saying "Towelhead" or "we outta bomb the hell out of those Muslims", that's a little different.
If Rush Limbaugh can say something you disagree with, and that's not "dehumanizing hate speech" if he's just making a point that you don't agree with, that's not dehumanizing anyone. But it's well documented, the "dehumanizing hate speech" of the rightwing radio shows. Ann Coulter? Come on! Do I have to site already documented examples of Ann Coulter's dehumanizing hate speech?
Here's a good question though: if you attack a hate-speecher BECAUSE they're a non-stop hate-speecher, is that hate speech? My opinion: NO. AND...it's "cover" for them to ward off people who are fed up with their hate speech.
If Malloy is attacking a hate speecher (one person) for continually saying dehumanizing hate speech...is that like dehumanizing the entire Arab race?
QUANTITY! AND...who is it directed at and why?
-Glenn Beck sucks! (ONE hate-speecher)
-Arabs suck and are all towelheads!
Is there a difference between those two sentences?
COMMENT #18 [Permalink]
...
Big Dan
said on 8/22/2009 @ 8:07 pm PT...
btw...antiwar.com is going out of business, if they don't get $20,000.00 by Monday. Apparently, there's no rich liberals in this country. Think about it. Can Michael Moore or someone give them $20,000.00 like Scaife and Coors are giving billions to all the rightwing media? Aren't there any rich liberals? Or there are, but they just don't care about "left" media?
COMMENT #19 [Permalink]
...
Agent 99
said on 8/22/2009 @ 8:08 pm PT...
I mean, for sure we are all getting that education about how it felt to be an Italian during Mussolini's rise, or a German in Hitler's, but do you propose we merely repeat those failures of courage and will and wait for an army of... well... what army... an army of Jovians to rescue us from submission to the fascist tyrannies?
COMMENT #20 [Permalink]
...
Big Dan
said on 8/22/2009 @ 8:09 pm PT...
You can have a headline next week: "Rich liberals let antiwar.com go out of business"
COMMENT #21 [Permalink]
...
Big Dan
said on 8/22/2009 @ 8:09 pm PT...
Or you can do a study, and find out if there's no rich liberals.
COMMENT #22 [Permalink]
...
Big Dan
said on 8/22/2009 @ 8:10 pm PT...
Why does left media always have to worry about money, and right media has endless supply of money from rightwing billionaires???
COMMENT #23 [Permalink]
...
Agent 99
said on 8/22/2009 @ 8:18 pm PT...
There are right wing antiwar guys at ANTIWAR, Danny.
And the fascists aren't Republican or Democrat; they're both.
COMMENT #24 [Permalink]
...
Agent 99
said on 8/22/2009 @ 9:28 pm PT...
And our wars are the only profit generators we've got left....
So the rich might not like to seem pro-war, but, well, let's be reasonable....
COMMENT #25 [Permalink]
...
Agent 99
said on 8/22/2009 @ 10:11 pm PT...
Heh, I'm listening to Derrick Jensen on YouTube right now, a six-part talk called This Means War, and right here in part three he talks about precisely what I'm talking about... and coming at it from Ernie's and Steve's position, too.
How cool is that?
COMMENT #26 [Permalink]
...
Ernest A. Canning
said on 8/23/2009 @ 7:38 am PT...
Steve, I hope you don't mind a bit of constructive criticism.
The points you make are solid. Your conclusions are arrived at through logical reasoning, but the substance is lost because so many points have been compacted into the first, exceedingly lengthy paragraph.
If I can have your permission to do so, I will break that paragraph into multiple paragraphs so that the power of your arguments is presented in a more readable format.
COMMENT #27 [Permalink]
...
mick
said on 8/24/2009 @ 12:15 am PT...
Imagine if the NET existed in 1945 ...you all sound like Germans .
COMMENT #28 [Permalink]
...
Steve
said on 8/24/2009 @ 1:38 am PT...
Ernest- have away. If you deem it worth your time, I would be honored to have you reconstruct my rant in any way you think would bring more clarity to it. I have certainly enjoyed the salience and eloquence that you always bring to the issues you deal with on this blog.
COMMENT #29 [Permalink]
...
Steve
said on 8/24/2009 @ 2:04 am PT...
MICK- I'm not sure who you're addressing in your comment #27. I do think it is quite unfair. Speaking for myself, while I'm sure others have done far more than I, I have made every effort to be as informed as I can be about the issues, to create e-mail lists and inform those contacts about progressive causes and the failings of our government, to sign petitions, write letters to government and other officials and to attend demonstrations. My point was that it is becoming nearly impossible for those of us who have tried to work within the system to achieve our goals. I was also trying to provoke a discussion about the ways and means of dissent although I probably entered this thread too late to get much going. What is it that you propose that us "Germans" do.