READER COMMENTS ON
"Zionism & Israeli 'State Terrorism' - Political Third Rail or Long Overdue Debate?"
(153 Responses so far...)
COMMENT #1 [Permalink]
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Kevin Andrews
said on 1/15/2010 @ 9:38 am PT...
Thank you for bringing this position forward. It is long past time that the United State align with the high-road of human dignity for all. The human rights violations of the Israeli governments cannot, in good conscience, be allowed to continue to drive this much needed conversation on American Foreign Policy. If a lasting peace is to be obtained it must represent all involved and not the exclusively Zionist position of the Israeli.
http://activecitizen54.wordpress.com/
COMMENT #2 [Permalink]
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Symbiont
said on 1/15/2010 @ 10:12 am PT...
Again, another real great article, Ernest - deep, and important analysis.
I did want to comment on one thing:
...such harsh rhetoric fails to take into account the deep seated Jewish insecurity which lies at the foundation of Zionism and which helps to explain why a Henry Waxman would erroneously equate a call for a peaceful, democratic "one-state" solution with a call for the destruction of Israel.
Forgive my simplistic thinking here, but isn't the whole point of the state of Israel to be a "Jewish homeland"? If the one-state solution were pursued (which will never happen), and a multi-cultural democracy were established, the Jews - increasingly in the demographic minority in Palestine - would not be able to (democratically) assert their interests.
Disclaimer: I have no Jewish ancestry, and I'm personally extremely critical of Israel's state-sponsored terrorism, and am heartbroken over the plight of Palestinians. Yet I believe every ethnic group should try to assert its own interests, and understand (if not condone) the desire to establish a Jewish homeland.
COMMENT #3 [Permalink]
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renzoku bb.com
said on 1/15/2010 @ 10:48 am PT...
Thank you Ernest. Beautiful to see the ideas sorted out more clearly. Given Waxman's previous positions against Bush, we might be giving him too much credit here. Ideology is not enough to explain his ridiculous criticisms and betrayal of Winograd.
COMMENT #4 [Permalink]
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MarkH
said on 1/15/2010 @ 10:54 am PT...
I don't know much about Winograd, but I can see how her argument would serve the larger purpose of discussing the situation in all it's aspects and of considering any kind of solution.
By arguing for one state she could be entirely sincere and a secularist who wants a Democracy there. Or, she could be suggesting this is an inevitability unless today's Israelis recognize it as inevitable AND dangerous, so they will then begin to seriously consider other possibilities.
The U.S. gov't has supported the 2-state solution for some time, but Israel has refused to move in that direction. Maybe Winograd, by pointing out the inevitability of the one-state if nothing is done, can inspire some kind of movement in Israel.
The angry response against her indicates the difficulty some people have in considering any alternative to their current world. It's tragic that world-changing event will naturally creep up on them and change their world without their consent.
Would we ignore a gradually changing world, as did the U.S. bankers who were part of our current economic crisis, and suffer the consequences when it's too late for us to change? The economic crisis has been incredibly painful. Would Israelis deserve to suffer when they might have taken the bull by the horns to design and choose their own future.
Don't let other people choose your future! Begin now to listen to leaders like Winograd. Begin now to create your own future.
COMMENT #5 [Permalink]
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Mitch Trachtenberg
said on 1/15/2010 @ 10:56 am PT...
said she favored a "one state solution" because you "cannot establish a democracy in a state founded on the institutionalized superiority or exclusivity of one of religion, ethnicity or culture."
Isn't that called a "nation"? Sorry, but I split with much of the left about this. I won't belabor the point, because the two sides can never seem to come to understand one another.
COMMENT #6 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 1/15/2010 @ 11:03 am PT...
Mitch Trachtenberg said
The two sides can never seem to come to understand one another.
___________________
Perhaps, Mitch, that is due to a lack of effort.
COMMENT #7 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 1/15/2010 @ 11:10 am PT...
Excellent post, Ernest. Thank you for this. Bravo, bravo for your sense of fairness.
For more of this liberating and inspiring fairness in a longer look at the history and issues here I higly recommend Rabbi Michael Lerner's "Healing Israel/Palestine: A Path to Peace and Reconciliation."
to Symbiont--I'm with you about the point of the state of Israel being a Jewish homeland but the broader point is the necessity and challenge of simultaneously including the Palestinians' viewpoint and their right to their own homeland. They were not consulted about the conversion of their country into someone else's. Understandably a bit of a sticky wicket.
Rabbi Lerner really is brilliant in going through the history and expressing with deep understanding and sympathy the realities for both sides and the perceptions those realities are likely to promote.
He also is brilliant in offering many, many examples of available roads repeatedly not taken by both sides. Many, many not taken paths that sure look a whole lot more amenable to peace and reconciliation than paths taken.
(disclosure--I'm of Italian, German Jew, Swedish, Norwegian descent)
COMMENT #8 [Permalink]
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SLSmith
said on 1/15/2010 @ 11:14 am PT...
Venice Votes Winograd Rally 1/16-->Show Your Support For Marcy in Venice-->We Need You!
Saturday January 16 @ 3:30 pm - 5:00 we will be holding a JOBS, NOT WARS - VENICE VOTES WINOGRADsigns in this peaceful rally. The rally will be at a well-trafficked corner in Venice with positive messaging about our candidate.
Once we have established a healthy presence, we'll dispatch volunteers to pass out fliers and walk down Abbot Kinney, gathering petition signatures to get Marcy on the Democratic primary ballot on June 8, 2010.
The rally will be held January 16 @ 3:30 pm - 5:00 pm at the corner of Abbot Kinney & Westminster Ave. Venice a well-trafficked corner on Saturdays.
1/16/10 VENICE VOTES FOR WINOGRAD rally details
COMMENT #9 [Permalink]
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Mitch Trachtenberg
said on 1/15/2010 @ 11:17 am PT...
(I'd reply specifically to Ernest, but I can't see any way of directly emailing an author.)
Yes, perhaps the inability of the two sides to come to an agreement is due to lack of effort. I think there's more involved than that, but perhaps more effort would help. In any event, I doubt a blog is the place that will lead to a solution.
I admire those who try to find one.
COMMENT #10 [Permalink]
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billy
said on 1/15/2010 @ 11:21 am PT...
It is a tricky topic but one that does need to be addressed. Especially with the US and its obvious pro-Zionist agenda. Where many in the world equate Zionism with racism, we as Americans, need to see how our policies effect the entire middle east and not just one group of people.
COMMENT #11 [Permalink]
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Big Dan
said on 1/15/2010 @ 11:28 am PT...
COMMENT #12 [Permalink]
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Symbiont
said on 1/15/2010 @ 11:29 am PT...
I'm with you about the point of the state of Israel being a Jewish homeland but the broader point is the necessity and challenge of simultaneously including the Palestinians' viewpoint and their right to their own homeland. They were not consulted about the conversion of their country into someone else's.
Yes, of course - totally agreed with you. "A land without a people for a people without a land" was factually incorrect, not to mention racist. I do not condone the Zionist land-grab, and I lament the suffering of the Palestinians. I was only defending Waxman's logic on that one particular point: A one-state solution logically implies the destruction of the state of Israel. The whole point of having a modern state of Israel was to establish a Jewish homeland, i.e., a homeland for a particular ethno-religious group. A state of Israel which were to comprise what is now Israel and what is now the Palestinian territories, and give full democratic rights to all ethnicities --- in short, an Israel that is a secular, pluralistic nation-state a la the US --- would mean the eventual non-existence of a Jewish homeland, because Jews just don't have demographic trends in their favor right now. That's all I'm trying to say --- the one-state solution is not in the interests of Israel, so it's not going to happen, unless imposed upon them by force in some distant future when Israel isn't getting foreign aid from the US.
Not @ you, but @ everyone: I don't think the Arab-Israeli conflict's perennial nature is due to lack of effort; it's due to force and logic. An appeal to "if only we all tried harder and were more sincere" is sort of in the same vein as narcissistic-Evangelicalism --- which, of course, gets us "all fired up" here in the bradblogosphere. (I actually am basically on your side, Frank.)
Hey, and while we're getting into heritages, I'm of German, Scottish, and French descent. And I want a Scotch-Franco-Germanic homeland, damit!
COMMENT #13 [Permalink]
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Orangutan
said on 1/15/2010 @ 11:32 am PT...
More people need to know about the "Mossad" and their history and motto's. That's for sure. More people need to be aware of a lot of things. And not afraid to speak out and take action on them.
COMMENT #14 [Permalink]
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Orangutan
said on 1/15/2010 @ 11:34 am PT...
This stuff needs to be unearthed. We spend way to much money propping up the state of Israel at the expense of too many other things. God may there be peace in this world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXDOlWcD4aM
Very good history of foreign involvement by the U.S. and their interests.
COMMENT #15 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 1/15/2010 @ 11:39 am PT...
Move Israel to the South Pole.
COMMENT #16 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 1/15/2010 @ 12:13 pm PT...
Agent 99--
Why not Texas? Make Texas Israel. Leave the poor South Pole alone. It's gonna be hot there soon enough. Move Austin to Cambridge. We could use the help. Let the other Texans,(the population of Fort Collins, Co) and Sarah Palin live on some reality show to be determined. Dick Cheney can be the host of the game show version of the reality show.
There solved everything. Who says the world's problems can't be solved in the blogosphere?
COMMENT #17 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 1/15/2010 @ 12:22 pm PT...
I thought of something similar to the Texas Solution first, but I think it would lead to too much trouble, pitting American Jews against Israeli Jews, when there's already something of a problem there. So I opted for the South Pole. My hero, Norman Finkelstein, seems to think that Israelis can be converted back into decent citizens of the world in the same way Germans were after WWII, and I can't really argue with that, except it seems we might have to have a WWIII first, and I will argue against that till my dying breath. So. South Pole.
COMMENT #18 [Permalink]
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renzoku bb.com
said on 1/15/2010 @ 12:49 pm PT...
guess I'm the cynical doomer here. Not only is the "more effort is needed" theme vein and pointless, it's also a ruse. The two sides derive their legitimacy with their client sheeple because of the conflict and its irresolution, not in spite of it. When these rightwingnut hawks stop fighting and terrorizing each other's peoples, their domestic abuses will be obvious and undeniable. The War on Terror is a marketing campaign and excuse to murder and slander political opponents.
Harmon's corruption required a coverup by other corrupt politicians who in turn require coverups from other corrupt politicians and the cycle continues. That's where Sibel Edmonds and other whistle blowers come in. Somewhere, the chain's gotta be broken. So far Bradblog's come the closest to getting those stories out there to break the chain.
so what can any and all of us do to make bradblog more effective?
COMMENT #19 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 1/15/2010 @ 12:56 pm PT...
The punchline to a great piece by John Pilger:
Just over a year ago, 1400 defenseless people in Gaza were murdered by the Israelis. On 29 December, Mohamed Jassier became the 367th Gazan to die because people needing life-saving medical treatment are not allowed out. Keep that in mind when you next watch the BBC "balance" such suffering with the weasel protestations of the oppressors.
In it he describes some of the successes of the boycott and divestment movement, but I think there isn't such a great chance of getting the kind of involvement and resolve as we got against South Africa. The United States was never as heavily invested in South Africa, and South Africa did not have anywhere near the political clout here as Israel does. This long-overdue debate, which oughtn't even to be debatable, is a political third rail only because of the fantastic amount of money their political machine pours on our government officials. It's identical to Big Pharma, and Big Oil, and Wall Street, all the huge money interests buying and bribing and scaring the snot out of our politicians.
Our government is broken because of this shit.
So I think the boycott thing isn't so likely to get the job done... maybe not even tone it down.
COMMENT #20 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 1/15/2010 @ 1:02 pm PT...
If you want an idea of what Winograd is up against, I heavily recommend you watch this hour-long Dutch documentary about AIPAC.
No. Really. If you want to know why supposedly-decent "progressives" are backing Harmon, watch the video.
COMMENT #21 [Permalink]
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Mitch Trachtenberg
said on 1/15/2010 @ 1:13 pm PT...
In a world without racism, Israel would be where Germany is today, and Palestinians would be in Palestine.
The United States would have been pushed off of North America, or at least to a small corner of New England, for which it could pay rent.
This is crystal-clear to me, and also "completely out-of-the-question".
The question that always comes up for me, viscerally, as I hear citizens of the United States complaining about Israeli violence, is "are you completely without shame?"
COMMENT #22 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 1/15/2010 @ 1:17 pm PT...
Truly. What pot is calling what kettle black?
COMMENT #23 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 1/15/2010 @ 1:19 pm PT...
Which, none the less, doesn't mean we shouldn't stop supporting Israel's perfidies.
COMMENT #24 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 1/15/2010 @ 1:33 pm PT...
Renzoku asked:
so what can any and all of us do to make bradblog more effective?
For a start, DIGG, REDDIT, RETWEET, Fan/Like us on Facebook, etc! Honestly, it makes a difference! Swear to God!
Next, donations (any) would help me get out of the daily grind of just trying to figure out how to pay the rent, and help move us towards being able to improve/expand the site.
But, as mentioned, the easiest, most important thing to do is SPREAD THE WORD! And I keep trying to make it as easy as possible...
COMMENT #25 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 1/15/2010 @ 1:40 pm PT...
David Lasagna @ 7:
the broader point is the necessity and challenge of simultaneously including the Palestinians' viewpoint and their right to their own homeland. They were not consulted about the conversion of their country into someone else's
(Wading onto my own third-rail here?) But without the time to go into detailed specifics, in fact they were consulted. And essentially declined to be a part of the solution.
I may regret not having the time right now to fully elucidate on the nuances of that point, but hopefully someone else can if my response actually comes up for contention here.
COMMENT #26 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 1/15/2010 @ 2:26 pm PT...
Mitch Trachtenberg said
I doubt a blog is the place that will lead to a solution.
____________________
The purpose of this piece was not so much to offer a "solution" to the thorny Israel/Palestine conflict.
My intent was to address the horribly constricted range of discourse on the topic that one presently finds either inside the halls of Congress or within the press rooms of the corporate-owned media.
Since you will not find an article like this inside the pages of The New York Times or the Washington Post, or find meaningful discussion of its content discussed on CNN, MSNBC, let alone, Fox News, one has to turn to a more democratic forum --- and I know of no better forum for this type of content than The Brad Blog.
If this leads to people ranging from hard-core Zionists to anti-Zionists and everyone in between to begin communicating with one another, all the better. So long as it is respectful, I would welcome comments from all quarters.
I get the impression, Mitch, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you are of the opinion that individual actions towards a specific goal don't matter --- that if a piece like this does not promptly lead to a resolution of the thorny issues of the day, why try?
I believe that in a democracy, respectful debate and dialogue pertaining to the vital issues of the day are essential. Yet, articles like that just posted by Brad --- Easily Hacked Diebold Systems to Decide 'Toss-Up' U.S. Senate Special Election in MA on Tuesday --- will go largely unreported in the corporate-owned media.
Yet, Brad's persistent efforts over the last six years, along with those of many others in the election integrity movement, have had an impact.
How effective that effort will ultimately be depends upon the willingness of individual citizens to educate themselves in an effort to make a difference, to pass on what is here at The Brad Blog and other valuable sites for others to see, read and, where appropriate, to act upon.
If you got the impression from my article that I intended to suggest that democracy is easy, then I either failed to accurately communicate my intent or you misread it.
COMMENT #27 [Permalink]
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Mitch Trachtenberg
said on 1/15/2010 @ 2:37 pm PT...
Ernest,
You are well-named. But after years of finding the so-called Arab-Israeli conflict to be the single topic on which civil debate invariably (in my experience) devolves into shouts and tears, I guess I was being somewhat negative. Good luck with your efforts.
COMMENT #28 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 1/15/2010 @ 2:38 pm PT...
Big Dan, one has to be especially careful so that readers are not misled as to the source of a quote.
The Haaretz article you cite pertains not to Joseph Lieberman but to Israel's foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman.
The article reads:
The Obama Administration will put forth new peace initiatives only if Israel wants it to, said Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman in his first comprehensive interview on foreign policy since taking office.
"Believe me, America accepts all our decisions," Lieberman told the Russian daily Moskovskiy Komosolets
[ed note: I fixed it so there won't be any confusion. Thanks. —99]
COMMENT #29 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 1/15/2010 @ 2:39 pm PT...
It's okay, Brad, I hear China and Mexico are making a deal to give California to the Tibetans. I'm sure we'll get the Governator right over to Beijing to object....
COMMENT #30 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 1/15/2010 @ 2:55 pm PT...
Not quite, 99. The Governator will be right over to Beijing to see what price he can secure in order to sell CA.
COMMENT #31 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 1/15/2010 @ 2:58 pm PT...
Too true, Ernie, too true....
COMMENT #32 [Permalink]
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Disillusioned
said on 1/15/2010 @ 3:00 pm PT...
Zionism, mostly because of how it was implemented, is an abomination that should have never been granted legitimacy, at least not through the Jewish terrorism acts that encouraged the British to cave and establish Israel.
A one-state solution probably isn't feasible, although its interesting to note that there is ~3.9 million Palestinians, and ~5 million Israeli Jews, which would make for an interesting 2-party democratic system. From a philosophical and diplomatic position, I think discussing a one state solution has some merit even if its incredibly improbable.
COMMENT #33 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 1/15/2010 @ 3:06 pm PT...
On the other hand, Dan, your link to the Washington Post piece warrants further discussion.
The piece recites:
Transcripts of the FBI wiretaps depict a possible trade of favors in which Harman expressed willingness to discuss the American Israel Public Affairs Committee prosecution with senior administration officials and, in return, backers of Israel would provide Democrats with additional campaign contributions and support Harman's efforts to become chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, according to two sources with direct knowledge of the matter who spoke on the condition of anonymity.
Then WaPo adds:
She [Harman] told reporters yesterday that as far as she knows, the calls in question were conversations with U.S. citizens that took place within the country.
That's an admission that conversations took place but a claim that Harman thought she was speaking with American citizens.
In a letter to Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr., Harman said she never contacted the Justice Department or the White House to "seek favorable treatment regarding the national security cases on which I was briefed, or any other cases."
The fact that she did not actually contact the JD or the WH does not equate to a denial that, during these admitted conversations, "Harman expressed willingness to discuss the American Israel Public Affairs Committee prosecution with senior administration officials," as alleged by "two sources."
The article went on to note:
Harman further called on the department to release in full any transcripts and other material involving her that were collected during the federal probe, so she could make them public.
Now there's a point on which Harman and I are in full agreement.
COMMENT #34 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 1/15/2010 @ 3:14 pm PT...
Here allow me--
Brad @ comment #25--
You're right and I was being imprecise yet again.
What I meant was more along the lines that the creation of a state of Israel in Palestine as a bold and necessary offer to the Jews who'd been pretty much shat on by everyone forever was not an idea that originated in Palestine. So yes, they were consulted. But it was on a mandate that was going to happen whether they wanted it or not. Isn't that correct? The element of choice seems a bit hamstrung in a situation like that.
This is not to say that I think the Palestinians were correct in refusing to take part in the discussions of what was going to become of Palestine/Israel. I think it would have been to everyone's benefit if they had. A conciliatory and generous negotiating posture would probably have been much more likely to produce happier outcomes. I'm just saying we need to understand both sides' viewpoints throughout the history and our discussions of same. As Lerner elucidates the Palestinians had there own long and tortured past which gave them reasons to not want to partake of this dramatic sea change.
Also, I don't believe the Palestinians were involved in the war talk, plans, and activities from surrounding hostile Arab countries that resulted in significant further acquisition of Palestinian land by Israel. At least according to Rabbi Lerner they weren't. Those actions were taken by the surrouding Arab states with the Palestinians (and Jews) suffering the consequences.(I'm speaking of the 1948-1967 period).
COMMENT #35 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 1/15/2010 @ 3:31 pm PT...
Symbiont said:
If the one-state solution were pursued (which will never happen), and a multi-cultural democracy were established, the Jews - increasingly in the demographic minority in Palestine - would not be able to (democratically) assert their interests.
Disillusioned adds:
A one-state solution probably isn't feasible, although its interesting to note that there is ~3.9 million Palestinians, and ~5 million Israeli Jews, which would make for an interesting 2-party democratic system.
____________________________
Ah, how quickly we all forget history.
I can recall the fears of white South Africans at the prospect of a democratic South Africa where black South Africans, who had suffered for years under the brutal apartheid regime, came to power.
What transpired was remarkably at odds with what was expected.
I'm not one to ordinarily recommend seeing a commercially produced film, but perhaps, for those who have not seen it, a trip to your local theater where you can watch Invictus (2009) would be educational.
Moreover, last I checked, 5 million is greater than 3.9 million. And it's not a pure numbers game. Less than 2% of the U.S. population is Jewish, yet when it comes to US/Israel policy, those numbers mean very little.
Have we all been locked into the status quo for so long that, this close to MLK day, no one can foresee a time when Jews, Christians, Muslims and atheists could judge one-another by the content of their character and not by their ethnicity or choice of religion (or lack thereof)?
Finally, for those who did not follow the link I provided in the article, Friends of Sabeel is a Palestinian Christian international peace movement. The fact that Marcy Winograd addressed them on behalf of L.A. Jews for Peace reflects that the level of communication and understanding between Jews and Arabs is not merely possible but, in that instance, a reality.
COMMENT #36 [Permalink]
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Mark
said on 1/15/2010 @ 4:33 pm PT...
This is a most disgusting bit of crap. To quote Finklestein with favor, who has demeaned the Holocaust and supports groups like Hezbollah who want to repeat the Holocaust, a man whose shoddy "scholarship" is something less than, say, the flat-earth society in support of such nonsense is incredibly disgusting and disgusting. And then to cite that anarchist terrorist Chomsky as well.
Mark my words: whenever you see Finklestein and Chomsky, you can expect an antisemitic argument. It's kind of like quoting Uncle Tom on racism. Or Phyllis Schafley on feminism. Or a so-called "ex-gay" on homosexuality.
Virtually every nation on earth, from France to Saudi Arabia, is based on national and religious identity. To deny the Jews of Judeaea a State in Judaea while allowing the Arabs of Arabia a State in Arabia AND Judaea makes as much sense as allowing the Germans both Germany and France and assigning French children to the ovens.
Do you even know that Israel is the sole reason why millions of Jews are not massacred? Do you even know that a Holocaust --- a mass murder of millions of Jews --- is the goal of Hezbollah, an organization which regularly murders children and which Finklestein avidly supports?
Do you even know that Finklestein's scholarship is about on par with Holocaust-denier Ahmanidejad and that no one, except the most vicious Nazi antisemites, takes it seriously?
Canning, please explain why --- without resorting to antisemitism --- you believe Jews and Jews alone have no right to the use the First Amendment to petition their Government.
And then address the fact that some 80% of Americans support the right of Israel to exist free from the murderous terror attacks supportedd by Finklestein (and presumably Winograd and Canning). So guess what? It ain't just the Jews! The vast majority of Americans, Democrats and Republicans, support the right of Israel to live in peace, free from repeated attempts at annihilation. How DARE you blame Jews for a position held by 80% of Americans?
Do you blame blacks for wanting to end apartheid in South Africa, a position also supported by the majority of Americans? Do you blame Germans for worrying about East Germany (another position that most Americans supported)? So why blame the Jews?
If you hate America's Israel policy, say so. But blaming American Jews is disgusting.
Frankly, Brad, I'm surprised at you. And I'd be even more surprised if you had the intellectual honesty to leave this comment up. But I hope you do. And if you believe in the First Amendment, you will.
Heck, even Carter apologized for his blatant antisemitism with regard to Israel. I think Canning, if he is intellecually honest and is willing to cite factual sources and decent scholarship, is redeemable as well.
But seriously, it is "articles" like this one, which purport to based on "scholarship," that lead to violence. It is articles like this one that led to the rise of the Third Reich and will lead today to another fanatic Muslim trying to murder hundreds by putting bombs in his underwear.
If you are against all political nationalisms and you want one-world government, then fine, you're a crazy idealist. But if you're against Jewish nationalism while supporting Arab nationalism and French nationalism and Russian nationalism and Muslim nationalism, etc., then you are, by definition, a Jew-hater, because you believe that Jews --- uniquely among the peoples of the earth --- do not deserve a state.
Need I remind anyone that knows anything that the Jewish People predates the Jewish religion? That Jews are named by the land which they are from (Judeaea)? That they are as much from Judeaea as the Arabs of Arabia? That they are the ONLY people on earth for which millions STILL seek to murder every last one of them? And that Israel is the only thing that stands in the way of genocide?
Need I remind anyone that Israel NEVER intentionally kills civilians while its opponents ALWAYS do? That Israel does its best to avoid civilian casualties, but when an Arab child dies, Hamas and Hezbollah celebrate! (which is why they put their weapons in schools and mosques)
Need I remind anyone that "Palestinians" didn't exist until the 1960's, that the Arabs have 23 states, that there were were Jewish refugees than Arabs refugees in 1948, that the Arabs supported Hitler's Holocaust, that Israel has repeatedly offered the Arabs a State of their own that they have repeatedly refused, or that Israel completely left Gaza and that in leaving Gaza, the people now live in misery controlled by a terrorist dictatorship devoted to war and oppression?
I could go on and on and on. But obviously the writer --- and sadly, most of the commentators --- don't know the first thing about Jewish or Arab history, about the State of Israel, or the State of Jordan. Please don't be willfully ignorant.
But if you are willing to believe this complete hateful nonsense, I urge you still PLEASE to not strap on a suicide bomb. Jews are people too. Please do not try to kill them. They have a right to live, like every people on earth.
COMMENT #37 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 1/15/2010 @ 5:00 pm PT...
With all due respect, Mark, your hysterical rant suggests that you did not read past the headline of my piece, let alone Prof. Finkelstein's well-written, scholarly work.
I find little in your diatribe to distinguish it from some of the off-the-wall claims the wing-nuts made about health care during the town hall meetings, e.g., nowhere in my piece did I so much as hint that anyone, including Israel, should not exist "free of terrorist attacks."
Unfortunately, I do not see where you express any concern whatsoever for the right of Palestinian children to exist free of Israeli state terrorism.
Calm yourself, take a deep breath, go to the library and check out Finkelstein's Beyond Chutzpah --- educate yourself on the facts and then return and I will be glad to hold an adult conversation with you.
COMMENT #38 [Permalink]
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BlueHawk
said on 1/15/2010 @ 5:02 pm PT...
Mark @36
The term "Zionism" was apparently coined in 1891 by the Austrian publicist Nathan Birnbaum, to describe the new ideology. It is also used to describe anyone who believes Jews should return to their ancient homeland.
Frankly Mark...your comment is too long to construct a meaningful response. So I'll just deal with Zionism, the belief that some Jews possess that tells them they are entitled their own homeland.
I'm sure many African Americans would be called friggin' nuts if they went to Ghana and demanded that it be declared their homeland ...and then made Ghanians live in a virtual concentration camp.
Our own Native Americans...don't they have a right to their own homeland ? Just where do you think they'll choose to make that homeland ?
Zionism is simply western imperialism...a way for the west (mainly the U.S.) to have a presence in the oil rich, militarily strategic middle east.
Suppose Buddhists from all over Asia decided to go back to India and declare it their homeland...?
I don't think the Hindus or Muslims will be too happy about that.
European Jews are European Jews...their homeland is Poland, Germany, France, Russia etc.
I want you to explain what gives European Jews the right to inprison Arabs and dominate a region simply by decree ?
A one state solution would be a return of Palestine to it's original state...Arabs and Jews living in Palestine as one people, 2 religions...
Tell me that's a ludicious idea.
COMMENT #39 [Permalink]
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BlueHawk
said on 1/15/2010 @ 5:08 pm PT...
And Mark...for the record...
Arabs don't hate Jews; Arabs hate Zionism.
Arabs and Jews lived side by side in Palestine relatively peacefully for centuries. Their conflict didn't get heated until some mook introduced the idea of Jewish Zionism.
It is you my friend that should do some even minded research.
COMMENT #40 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 1/15/2010 @ 5:11 pm PT...
Oh, and Mark, what do you have to say to those on the Right who claim this is a "Christian America?" Would you feel discriminated against if only Christians had first class citizenship and all the rest of us were relegated to second class status?
COMMENT #41 [Permalink]
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Big Dan
said on 1/15/2010 @ 5:15 pm PT...
Those links are just info I have noticed and saved over time.
Yes, I thought that, too, about Lieberman...that it was Joe Lieberman (but what's the difference? LOL!)
COMMENT #42 [Permalink]
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Big Dan
said on 1/15/2010 @ 5:19 pm PT...
The one thing that gets me about Israel is: IT'S A FOREIGN COUNTRY! And we act like it isn't! It's just as foreign to ME, being an American, as any Arab country, or France, or ANY other country! And I don't understand why we seem to bend over backwards for this foreign country Israel all the time, and our media definitely is biased towards Israel. That's not even up for argument, that our media is biased towards Israel...which is a foreign country. Sometimes I think we bend over backwards for Israel more than for our own Americans.
Did you know Israel has universal national health care? Did you notice the media NEVER mentions this?
COMMENT #43 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 1/15/2010 @ 5:40 pm PT...
NORMAN FINKELSTEIN IS A HERO WITH MORE INTEGRITY IN HIS LEFT PINKY THAN MOST PEOPLE HAVE IN THEIR WHOLE BODY.
Period.
COMMENT #44 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 1/15/2010 @ 8:44 pm PT...
Mark @ 36:
a) You're lovably crazy.
b) You said:
Frankly, Brad, I'm surprised at you. And I'd be even more surprised if you had the intellectual honesty to leave this comment up. But I hope you do. And if you believe in the First Amendment, you will.
The First Amendment, though we're ardent supporters, has nothing to do with what I decide to keep up on the private property of my blog.
That said, we leave all comments up, unless they are in violation of the few commenting rules we have, which I don't believe you've violated (the one you came closest to was "knowing disinformation", but since I actually think you believe the bulk of the nonsense you just posted, I don't think it's knowing disinformation, just ignorant repetition of what you've been told by Rush, Dubya and friends.)
Heck, even Carter apologized for his blatant antisemitism with regard to Israel.
Really? Got URL? I'm unfamiliar with him apologizing for "blatant antisemitism" with regard to anything.
c) You also said:
I could go on and on and on.
You already did. What were you thinking?! You should have been guarding against underwear bombers who want to kill you!!! Good luck to you and your blood pressure.
Peace.
COMMENT #45 [Permalink]
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ron_woodward
said on 1/16/2010 @ 1:52 am PT...
During my lifetime I have witnessed the decline of the US Republic into a corporate communist welfare/warfare state. The USA has conducted several preemptive wars excused by her declaration she is bringing "democracy" to various have-not nations. She implies the 7.2 millions Asians she has killed in the process are better off dead.
Similarly, the US citizen has no other choice but to follow the dictates of the military/industrial complex against his better interests. He has the chutzpah to assume only he has the proper moral outlook to judge the conduct of other nations.
Somehow, a number of self-styled experts insist they qualify to discuss "Zionism & State Terrorism."
I live 22 miles east of Egypt within the range of Iran-supplied missiles. Humbly, I ask the pundits to spend a little time conversing with ordinary folks in the region before they pontificate about policy.
COMMENT #46 [Permalink]
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Floridiot
said on 1/16/2010 @ 4:50 am PT...
COMMENT #47 [Permalink]
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BlueHawk
said on 1/16/2010 @ 8:48 am PT...
ron_woodward @45
I live 22 miles east of Egypt within the range of Iran-supplied missiles. Humbly, I ask the pundits to spend a little time conversing with ordinary folks in the region before they pontificate about policy.
And Arabs live under the threat of Israeli nuclear warheads supplied by the West...
Pardon the well read and thoughtfully considered reporters and commenters on this blog for not living in Egpyt.
Zionism is state sponsored terrorism...plain and simple.
Menachem Begin was Britain's most sought after terrorist; google Menachem Begin and the bombing of Jerusalem's King David hotel.
That tidbit may seem unrelated to your comment...but a nation, Israel that used terrorism as a tool to independence and has nuclear arms pointed at it's neighbors at this very moment...can't all the sudden cry foul when it is threatened with the very same realities.
call it karma, divine justice or what goes around comes around....
Zionism is at it's very core...imperialist, racist and unjust.
COMMENT #48 [Permalink]
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Mitch Trachtenberg
said on 1/16/2010 @ 11:13 am PT...
Zionism is state sponsored terrorism...plain and simple.
And so it goes, Mr. Woodward, so it goes.
If you are a sabra, it doesn't matter. Americans will explain that you are illegitimate, because your grandparents were immigrants who actually had to fight to establish their country. They will ignore the fact that all citizens of the United States (except indigenous people) are living on land stolen only five to ten generations ago.
They will explain that you are a Western imperialist, even if you came from the Soviet Union or Africa.
They will cry tears for what your army does to civilian Palestinians, giving no though to what the surrounding states would do to your civilians if they had your strength. They will hold you to a standard no other nation is held to, certainly not their own, and they will cite chapter and verse of every excess in which your government has engaged, as if no other nation has engaged in excess.
And, the galling part: they'll feel morally superior while doing it.
I'm sorry.
COMMENT #49 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 1/16/2010 @ 11:28 am PT...
Yes, well, Mitch, much as I agree with you about this pot calling kettle black thing, the upshot of that thinking is that because Americans are hypocrites about the genocide of the rightful inhabitants of a given location, it's actually okay for Israelis to keep slaughtering Palestinians. Whether our country was gained by identical means is moot. It doesn't make it okay to do this anywhere. Would that there had been international action against the murderating fucks who established the United States. We might be living in Eden now.
Palestine might be Eden someday if Israelis stop slaughtering people, whether they do it in place or on the South Pole.
COMMENT #50 [Permalink]
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Mitch Trachtenberg
said on 1/16/2010 @ 11:43 am PT...
When you insist that one people follow a different set of rules than others, that's bigotry. When you hold people to a different standard, that's bigotry. When you NOTICE one people's behavior more than others, that's bigotry.
And I think you and others would be well-advised to follow Mr. Woodward's advice, and stop pontificating from afar about the behavior of a country that has been under attack since birth.
Having said that, I'll engage in a bit of my own pontification, with all due embarrassment.
I'm an American non-religious, non-believing Jew. I'm continually astonished that so many American Jews provide cover to the anti-semitism involved in attacks on Israel. I am convinced that there are psychological issues behind this, which I don't pretend to understand.
Israel's behavior in response to attacks stands up against the behavior of any other nation in world history. You needn't look far. Compare the United States response to a few Saudis with knives --- Guantanamo, secret prisons, the invasion of Iraq, the reduction of domestic civil rights --- with Israel's reaction over 50 years of statehood under continual threat of annihilation.
Yes, Israel is on land that doesn't belong to it, except by ridiculous claim to biblical history.
Let's not pretend that, if we go back a few generations, the same cannot be said of every nation on the planet.
The difference is, Israel is small, Israel is new, and Israel is Jewish.
And now, I need to take my blood pressure pill.
COMMENT #51 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 1/16/2010 @ 11:56 am PT...
The "attacks" you describe, Mitch, are typical of those one always anticipates from an occupied people, as the French learned in Algeria.
But since you and Mr. Woodward seem to imply that no one can have a valid opinion on the subject unless they live in harm's way, consider the words of Avraham Burg, Former Speaker of the Israeli Parliament and former Chairman of the Jewish Agency for Israel and the World Zionist Organization; author of The Holocaust Is Over: We Must Rise from its Ashes as he appeared on Democracy Now:
AMY GOODMAN: Pull out all the settlements.
AVRAHAM BURG: Yeah, it pollutes our morality, and it contaminates our policy. And we became hostages of the messianic and eschatological policy of the settlers, which actually leads Israel into a de facto one-state solution, which discriminates one people over the other people.
In other words, in Burg's view, Israel has already moved toward a one-state solution --- one in which the Palestinian territories are analogous to Native American reservations as the Palestinians are accorded a subjugated status.
Quite different from the "one-state solution" proposed by Marcy Winograd.
COMMENT #52 [Permalink]
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Mitch Trachtenberg
said on 1/16/2010 @ 12:05 pm PT...
Scare quotes around "attacks"? They don't actually exist? They don't actually kill civilians?
Don't misinterpret me. If you want to compare Israel's behavior with that of France in Algeria, or that of Yugoslavia, or Russia, or China in Tibet, or the United States versus the world, that's fine. If you want to compare the civil rights of Arab citizens of Israel with that of Arab citizens of Egypt or Jordan, or, hell, Jewish citizens of Saudi Arabia, fine. Talk about how nations should not commit genocide. Talk about how nations should respect the civil rights of minorities.
Israel's no saint of a nation, thank god, and I wouldn't begin to excuse attacks by some of its forces on unarmed Palestinian civilians. But, again, Israel's behavior is, if anything, FAR BETTER than the typical behavior of a nation under attack. And yet the American left ALWAYS finds Israel to be the nation most worthy of complaint, partially because you can always get pictures and information out of Israel as events take place, and because people who speak out against the government are not immediately killed.
It IS anti-semitism, it IS bigotry, and it IS disgusting. And now I'll just sit back and wait for the complaints about my "false accusations" to come pouring in, and I'll see if Brad Friedman is willing to say anything.
COMMENT #53 [Permalink]
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Mitch Trachtenberg
said on 1/16/2010 @ 12:19 pm PT...
You talk about the French in Algeria.
When the French were forced out of Algeria, was there any place in the world they could go?
If Jews were to be forced out of Israel, is there any place in the world they can go?
COMMENT #54 [Permalink]
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BlueHawk
said on 1/16/2010 @ 12:20 pm PT...
Conflating anti-Zionism with Anti-Semitism....
Mitch and Mr. Woodward ignore that Arabs and Jews lived in Palestine relatively peacefully pre-Zionism.
It is Zionism that caused the Arab-Israeli wars...not anti Semitism.
Mitch's and Mr. Woodward's arguments are intellectually fallible because they confuse the two.
Mr.Trachtenberg I'm an African American...my presence here in America is unique to human history, just as the Jew's history is....
I understand injustice when I see it as others here do. Israel's moral standing as related to Zionism is weak.
From my African American perspective ...seems the abused have become the abusers. Sadly that isn't unique to human history.
COMMENT #55 [Permalink]
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Mitch Trachtenberg
said on 1/16/2010 @ 12:20 pm PT...
Besides, as someone on this thread suggested, the South Pole?
COMMENT #56 [Permalink]
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Mitch Trachtenberg
said on 1/16/2010 @ 12:27 pm PT...
BlueHawk,
Be careful about the difference between Zionism and the birth of Israel. Zionism, in my opinion, is pretty dubious at best.
Israel came about because of the Holocaust.
Israel is a home for the survivors of Europe's anti-semitism; because the donors were racists, it was exceptionally convenient to locate it on land that had "no one of any importance," and for which Zionists were clamoring.
I am in complete agreement with anyone who thinks the vast majority of Palestinians have been screwed over by the West. My issue is that, with all the incredible cruelty that nations invoke on their minority populations, the one that always gets singled out as an example of modern-day Nazism is the one that was founded by a group of people with nowhere else to go.
COMMENT #57 [Permalink]
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BlueHawk
said on 1/16/2010 @ 12:41 pm PT...
Mitch Trachtenberg @56
You're playing fast and loose with facts.
Israel exists because of Zionism.
There are many holocausted people in the history of the world...Africans, Albanians, Jews, Cambodians, Native Americans...sadly I could go on...Not wanting to sound uncaring but the Jewish holocaust isn't unique to Jews.
Zionism was first expressed in 1891...the holocaust was simply a Jewish justification for disenfranchiing Arab Palestinians. As I said... the abused became the abusers.
COMMENT #58 [Permalink]
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Mitch Trachtenberg
said on 1/16/2010 @ 12:51 pm PT...
Yes, BlueHawk, I agree that Zionism created the path towards the State of Israel.
But I don't believe I'm playing fast and loose with facts when I say that Israel exists because of the genocide on the part of Germans and others against their Jewish populations.
Of course there have been other holocausts in history, both ancient and modern. What you had following the German genocide was a situation where the survivors were offered a choice between staying in a society that had just demonstrated the depth of its hatred, or moving to a shiny new country of their own, promised to them by the world community via the League of Nations and the United Nations.
It was through League/UN mandates that all the other nations in the area came to exist, as well. By what divine right is Saudi Arabia ruled by its King?
Again, I don't mean to minimize the disaster that Israel has represented for Palestinians. But the Jewish population of Israel cannot return to, say, Germany. That does make the situation of Jewish Israeli's unique.
COMMENT #59 [Permalink]
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mick
said on 1/16/2010 @ 12:59 pm PT...
A well reasoned article as usual Ernest .
And nobody can argue with the "third rail" analogy.
Political suicide/career suicide can result talking publicly about Israel's behavior towards the Palestinians ,Israel's behavior towards the Lebanese ,Israel's behavior towards Syrians ,Israel's behavior towards Iranians etc.
Imagine this story in your News paper or News media of choice,60 years late but a "Long Overdue Debate".
Also, "the religious and ethnic-based insecurity of Zionism" would be a hard statement to prove by example.
And 99 your comments and awesome in their frankness ,you kick ass.
COMMENT #60 [Permalink]
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BlueHawk
said on 1/16/2010 @ 1:00 pm PT...
Mitch @58
Germany was the only option Jews had for a place to live...not the U.S., not France, not England ?
I thought the European Jews homeland was IN EUROPE.
And please don't tell me that the United States was an unwelcoming nation for persecuted Jews.
Mitch you're being obtuse...
COMMENT #61 [Permalink]
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BlueHawk
said on 1/16/2010 @ 1:12 pm PT...
Mitch I invite you to read this link...
Jews against Zionism
I would be interested to hear your reactions...I'm not Jewish and I'm not claiming to an expert on Judaism. Your reaction to what this site proclaims will be helpful to my understanding.
COMMENT #62 [Permalink]
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Mitch Trachtenberg
said on 1/16/2010 @ 1:15 pm PT...
BlueHawk,
I've got to go, but I appreciate your willingness to limit your harshness to my being "obtuse."
My email is account mjtrac at the mail site gmail.com, if you'd like to continue this off-blog, but I'll be away for several hours.
If I haven't heard from you, I'll post a reply on the blog at some point.
COMMENT #63 [Permalink]
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mick
said on 1/16/2010 @ 1:16 pm PT...
"Israel came about because of the Holocaust." WTF
The Holocaust has been used in the most disgusting way imaginable .
A more accurate statement would be "Israel came about because of State Sponsored Terrorism".
COMMENT #64 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 1/16/2010 @ 1:22 pm PT...
Mitch
Israelis can return to their native countries. Those who were born in Palestine can stay in Palestine or go to the native countries of their parents and grandparents... in almost all cases. Russia and Germany I'm sure would welcome any or all of them. The U.S. would welcome them. Plenty of humans across the globe might still be angry as hell with them for their murderating ways, hypocritically or not, but they'd take them and that would be an end to it. It's this homeland for a bunch of people who are their religion one minute and astonishingly hypocritically calling themselves a race the next, all of it held down from usability in the application of sense by the Holocaust Industry, that is preventing too many people from rushing in to stop the inexcusably evil activities of the Israeli government.
We can't even console ourselves that the people of Israel do not back them because the atrocity in Gaza has something like 90% approval in the Israeli public... which, along with the clear intention to genocide their way into safety and supremacy in the Palestinian homeland, is why I am stumping for the South Pole instead of this whole planet full of more accommodating choices.
And whether or not it is indeed your intention to minimize the disaster, you are minimizing the disaster.
COMMENT #65 [Permalink]
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mick
said on 1/16/2010 @ 1:23 pm PT...
"Zionists chose not to acknowledge Birobidjan, the voluntary Jewish homeland (supported by American Jewry since 1928) of the Jewish Autonomous Region (on the border of Russia and China). To this day this is a flourishing Jewish homeland - a largely unsung region"
COMMENT #66 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 1/16/2010 @ 1:32 pm PT...
Maybe I should remind everyone that the Nazis had similar excuses for exterminating Jews.
COMMENT #67 [Permalink]
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mick
said on 1/16/2010 @ 1:48 pm PT...
"Few people know the facts about the singular event that helped spark what ultimately became known as World War II - the international Jewish declaration of war on Germany shortly after Adolf Hitler came to power and well before any official German government sanctions or reprisals against Jews were carried out. The March 24, 1933 issue of The Daily Express of London (shown here) described how Jewish leaders, in combination with powerful international Jewish financial interests, had launched a boycott of Germany for the express purpose of crippling her already precarious economy in the hope of bringing down the new Hitler regime. It was only then that Germany struck back in response. Thus, if truth be told, it was the worldwide Jewish leadership - not the Third Reich - that effectively fired the first shot in the Second World War. Prominent New York attorney Samuel Untermyer (above right) was one of the leading agitators in the war against Germany, describing the Jewish campaign as nothing less than a "holy war.""
COMMENT #68 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 1/16/2010 @ 1:58 pm PT...
mick
I have no idea if Willis Carto is in fact an anti-Semite, or if it's just the popular smear tactic at work, but I think it is ill-advised to cite material that can be traced back to him when trying to argue for the Palestinians' right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness....
COMMENT #69 [Permalink]
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mick
said on 1/16/2010 @ 2:03 pm PT...
COMMENT #70 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 1/16/2010 @ 2:09 pm PT...
Dear Mitch,
I'm confused by many of your words and much of your tone in comments #48 #50 #52.
1. What happened to Mr. Manners?(just kidding)
2. You're angry about Israel being unfairly singled out? By whom? Commenters or posters here? Aren't the usual suspects here decrying injustice wherever it happens? That's what I certainly mean to be doing. My core curriculum people Zinn, Chomsky, Eqbal Ahmad, Naomi Klein, Glenn Greenwald, Amy Goodman, etc, etc, are not playing favorites on calling out crimes against humanity. At least not the way I read them. I'm confused about who you're mad at.
2. There are plenty of Israelis who are critical of their country. The Other Israel is a book of powerful essays written solely by Israelis. A number of them had been in the military serving in the territories. It's a real eye opener.
3. The book I mentioned earlier by Rabbi Michael Lerner--Healing Israel/Palestine:A Path to Peace and Reconciliation-- is extremely critical of both sides. He's a Jew, Rabbi, and psychiatrist who's spent a lot of time over many years in Israel talking to many people from all different sides of the issue. Can you show me or explain how he might be singling out Israel for unfair racist criticism? I just mean to point out again that I think there are plenty of fair, unbiased, non-racist, not anti-semitic people out there who are being critical not just on behalf of the Palestinians but because they see Israel going down a road to ruin and they want her to succeed with all their hearts.
4. Your cries of foul seem to be proving Ernest's point in the post, that this subject is taboo. And that we should be having more discussion. And so here we are.(watch out for sore shoulders from patting ourselves on the back)
5. When one reads the first hand accounts in The Other Israel and from articles written today by people over there witnessing events, I don't think you can reasonably make the claim that the Israelis are doing a much better, fairer, less punishing job of protecting themselves than others throughout history. I mean, hard to compare atrocities to determine if one atrocity is more humane than another, but to me it horrifically sounds like business as usual in demeaning and making life as impossible as possible for yet another "other".
6. Mitch, from me personally I want you to know that I do not feel special animosity or outrage for Israelis. Of course I may be deluded but in my own mind I'm not singling them out. I am heartbroken by our treatment of Native Americans for the last 500-600 years. I am heartbroken by our treatment of the Haitians that so contributed to their current misery. I am heartbroken and appalled at the treatment of the Jews from so many oppressors for so many years. And I'm heartbroken and angered at the oppression the Jews are now beleaguring the Palestinians with. I could go on and on but you get the point.
COMMENT #71 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 1/16/2010 @ 2:32 pm PT...
With all due respect, Mick, your suggestion in #67 that some obscure article appearing in London's Daily Express amounts to an "international Jewish declaration of war on Germany" that "helped spark what ultimately became known as World War II" is both "off-topic" and ludicrous.
As revealed by Richard Evans in The Coming of the Third Reich, as early as 1921 Hitler declared he would imprison German Jews in concentration camps. Dachau was not an improvised solution, but a long-planned measure.
Evans notes that from the moment Hitler ascended to the position of Reich Chancellor, "columns of paramilitaries marched past [President] Ludendorf’s window. Observers likened the moment to the spirit of 1914, overlooking that it was that spirit led to war. It was the Nazi’s intent from 1/30/33 onward to put the nation on a permanent war footing."
Both World War II and the Holocaust were precisely what the Nazis had intended for Germany from the beginning. Their madness did not arise as a reaction to a real "international Jewish conspiracy" --- that was simply the propaganda the Nazis resorted to and which present day anti-Semites continue to cling to.
I had hoped this piece would get people communicating with one another with an eye towards an empathetic understanding of the others point of view. That objective cannot be achieved if we are constantly sniping at one another about who has done what to whom.
What is needed are constructive ways to move away from the madness that has had Jews and Palestinians killing one another for the past 60 years to a peaceful tomorrow in which all can learn to respect and appreciate one another.
COMMENT #72 [Permalink]
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mick
said on 1/16/2010 @ 2:59 pm PT...
Ernest one thing that surprises me since "paying attention" to the Palestinians plight is the amount of hidden information .I was not suggesting that Jews started WW2 .But the media has been perverted from honest examination of things related to Jewish history .
If you are Palestinian Nekba would mean as much to you as the Holocaust means to Jews.
COMMENT #73 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 1/16/2010 @ 3:18 pm PT...
What is needed are constructive ways to move away from the madness that has had Jews and Palestinians killing one another for the past 60 years to a peaceful tomorrow in which all can learn to respect and appreciate one another.
Move Israel to the South Pole.
Dissolve Israel and restore Palestine, with citizens of whatever religion, race or national origin enjoying equal status.
Israel is dangerous for more reasons than it was wrong to instate it to begin with, all its murderation in the name of "self-defense" and its clear intent to do to Palestinians what was done to the Native Americans: With no Israel, the perfidies of the lobby are greatly diminished, and the Armageddon so many fundamentalists are spoiling for on its account is obviated.
Stumping for the two state solution is hinky enough, though feasible, if the settlements are all abandoned and things restored to the pre-1967 borders, but completely pernicious to even talk about without those conditions... and that is what way too many are trying to do, incoherent as it is. There aren't any half measures short of the half measures of dropping everything, adhering to the UN resolutions, and instating an Israel and a Palestine with equal status as nations, that can approach Israelis and Palestinians learning to respect and appreciate each other. The feasible half measure has already been proposed and backed by the entire world, but the Israelis won't go there, and can't be made to because of our protection.
So either stop protecting them and help make them adhere to the UN resolutions for the two state solution, or let the people who want to rectify matters in defense of the Palestinians who continue to be mercilessly slaughtered after over six decades bring about the one state solution.
The Israelis have made it abundantly clear that it will be a one state solution, their way. If their way is unacceptable, and it is, let it be the other way.
COMMENT #74 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 1/16/2010 @ 3:27 pm PT...
Seriously wonderful people have been screaming that it is against Israel's interests to let this continue for quite a while now and Israel and its proponents have done naught but get them fired from their jobs and prevented from holding others for having the audacity to impede them in their determination to have Zion. Insofar as they suffer any casualties from Arabs it is 100% a consequence of their clear imperative to kill any and all they can't drive out. The question is only whether the world can be made to shove its condemnation of this holocaust and be propagandized into calling it merely the unhappy way nations are established.
COMMENT #75 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 1/16/2010 @ 3:28 pm PT...
It doesn't stop being a third rail until this is settled completely once and for all.
COMMENT #76 [Permalink]
...
Brad Friedman
said on 1/16/2010 @ 4:09 pm PT...
I'm still working hard on a deadline, so haven't been able to follow this thread closely today, and won't be able to over the next 24 or so.
Seems most are being generally respectful of each other, and hashing things out in the "long-overdue debate" category. And that's fine. And I hope that such courtesy will continue.
That said. A couple of replies to Blue Hawk at various, who said:
And please don't tell me that the United States was an unwelcoming nation for persecuted Jews.
Of course it was, BH. Sounds like your not familiar with the history of anti-semetism in the U.S.
A fine place to start is with the story of the MS St. Louis which, in 1939, brought hundreds of persecuted Jews fleeing Nazi Germany, only to be refused port in the U.S. by FDR. They were sent back to the death camps. You can read more about that beginning here.
the holocaust was simply a Jewish justification for disenfranchiing Arab Palestinians.
That's utter nonsense, as others have spoken to here I believe (thank you, Ernie). I believe you're a good guy, BH, so don't believe you had any ill-will in your beliefs. But they are rather misguided --- and/or skewed by some pretty ugly (likely purposely anti-Semitic) propaganda --- on this point.
Conflating anti-Zionism with Anti-Semitism....
The conflation happens for a reason. Because MUCH of the anti-Zionism in both the U.S. and around the world is, in fact, an easy mask for Anti-Semitism. That's just one of the reasons the discussion is so difficult to have, and one of the reasons why Jews tend to be so (understandably, but overly) touchy about it.
Knowing you a bit via your comments here, BH, I don't suspect you have an anti-Semitic bone in your body, in truth. But it is clear from your comments on this thread, that you've been fooled by a number of anti-Semitic "talking points". There are many opportunists out there who use the mask of legitimate questions about Israel's behavior to mask their very real anti-Semitism.
If you haven't figured that out yet, I'd urge you to pay a bit more attention. In fact, even as the discussion here has remained largely civil, there a couple of points of discussion which tread mercifully close to anti-Semitism. So again, I urge folks to tread carefully and respectfully on such a discussion, and mind where they are getting their "talking points" from.
(eg. 99's case that Israel should be done away with and/or moved to the South Pole, is naive, over-simplified and potentially dangerous. While I don't believe she makes the point in an anti-Semetic way, I suspect she doesn't realize how others might use that same point to express very real anti-Semetic points of view. It also completely ignores hundreds of years of Jewish persecution, for which Israel was ultimately set up in response to....whether BH understands it as much that way yet or not.)
And to Mitch Trachtenberg, on the other side of the coin, who said at various:
the American left ALWAYS finds Israel to be the nation most worthy of complaint
That's an extraordinary and inaccurate --- and yes, offensive --- over-generalization which I suspect you didn't actually mean, had you'd bothered to stop to ponder it before writing it in your zeal here.
It IS anti-semitism, it IS bigotry, and it IS disgusting. And now I'll just sit back and wait for the complaints about my "false accusations" to come pouring in, and I'll see if Brad Friedman is willing to say anything.
I've already said something about that above, in my comments in reply to BlueHawk. I believe it is often anti-Semitism, as noted, but it is not always and, in the bargain, legitimate criticism of Israel and U.S. policies towards it, have gone far too long as a third-rail, IMO.
This thread, however, bears witness to just how difficult is to to have that conversation. That said, all in all, everyone seems to be doing rather well here and staying civil and respectful. Hope that continues.
I'm continually astonished that so many American Jews provide cover to the anti-semitism involved in attacks on Israel.
If they do, they should be ashamed. If you feel I have done that (or am doing so), I hope you'll call me out for it as appropriate.
And again, I urge all to think before they post, in order to assure that their beliefs --- no matter which side of the debate you might fall on --- are based on legitimate points, as opposed to veiled hatred, from you, or from anyone else.
Now back to deadlines...
COMMENT #77 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 1/16/2010 @ 4:31 pm PT...
Not to split hairs, but stumping for moving Israel to the South Pole cannot be construed as anti-Semitic. While Brad has a point that people who hate Jews might like to use it, it doesn't distract from the fact that Israel needs to be made to stop murdering its neighbors or moved or completely dissolved. It is not anti-Semitic to have antipathy for Israel... to revile Israel's entire history of slaughtering Arabs and very apparent disinclination to stop. I know Israel likes to conflate itself with Judaism and many Jews like to do that too, but Israel is a rogue state and it must be stopped.
One could also argue, from this same perspective, that the United States should be moved to the South Pole, and I would probably argue that vehemently if I weren't so busy dithering on whether I oughtn't move there myself to get away from all this corruption and killing and hating and polemicizing.
A nice igloo with a good broadband connection sounds kind of preferable to me....
COMMENT #78 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 1/16/2010 @ 4:48 pm PT...
Of all the excellent points Brad makes in comment #76, the words "bothered to stop to ponder it before writing it in your zeal" which he applied to Mitch but which I believe appropriately apply to all who chose to weigh in on this topic, are perhaps the most significant.
The "third rail" nature of this topic arises not only because of the constricted level of discourse here within the U.S. but because, on both sides of the Israel/Palestine divide, emotions are raw and "on edge."
A good deal of time and thought went into this piece as I wanted to minimize the possibility that individuals on either side of the divide misinterpreted the deeply felt feelings I wanted to convey.
For those who have followed my writing, you know that if I have a bias, it is one which favors peace over war, equality over the inequities of our capitalist system, honesty over corruption, brotherhood and sisterhood over racism and sexism, justice and accountability for war crimes as opposed to sophistries and political expediency.
I wrote this article in large measure because I saw in Marcy Winograd's "One State Solution" speech an incredible level of courage to address a topic that, until now, has been taboo for any American running for public office --- even for progressive Jewish American politicians --- and I felt strongly that it is both wrong and hypocritical to refuse to condemn wars of aggression and violence irrespective of whether that violence comes from al Qaeda, Hamas or from any nation-state, including both Israel the United States --- especially from the U.S., which is, militarily, by far the most powerful nation on earth.
The core point I made here is the one I've made elsewhere --- the need to acquire an empathetic understanding of the other's point of view.
You are entitled to your opinions and can, within the rules of this blog, express them.
I would only ask that, before you commit your thoughts to a posted comment, you ponder how they may be received by the other; that you ponder whether you are furthering a dialogue that can potentially lead to a better world; or simply being provocative in a manner that will inflame the other and cause them to shut their minds to what it is you desire to say.
COMMENT #79 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 1/16/2010 @ 4:55 pm PT...
Oh, oh, and, well, that is also if one is inclined to just let Jews have Semitism all to themselves, and I am, because there are only so many windmills one can tilt simultaneously. It has been pointed out that Palestinians in fact qualify as Semitic too:
The term Semite means a member of any of various ancient and modern Semitic-speaking peoples originating in southwestern Asia, including Akkadians, Canaanites, Phoenicians, Hebrews, Arabs, and Ethiopian Semites.
and so European Jews oughtn't have started using the term, but common usage has it that "anti-Semitic" means to be anti-Jew.
So I know it's hard to keep all the terms and concepts straight, so long have they been obfuscated by propaganda and attempts to excuse the inexcusable and all the other forces that come to bear on thorny issues, but Israel is not Judaism or Jews. It's a state.
COMMENT #80 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 1/16/2010 @ 5:19 pm PT...
You are quite right, 99. The word, Semite, can apply to many peoples of the region, and to the extent that anti-Arab and anti-Muslim sentiments are deeply embedded in American culture --- as I've noted in my earlier articles dealing with hate speech --- it may be said that American culture is tinged by anti-Semitism, even as its government has adopted a pro-Zionist line.
The problem I have with the thought of moving Jews from Israel to the North Pole or to any other region is the same problem I have with forcing Palestinians to leave the region.
The thought behind Marcy's "One State Solution" envisions the survival of Israel, but not an Israel as strictly a Jewish nation any more than the United States should be a Christian nation.
Her vision is of a truly democratic Israel, shared by Jews, Muslims, Christians (and hopefully a few atheists like me) who come to realize that the commonality of their humanity outweighs their differences. It is a vision of a nation and a region at peace.
Hatred, hostility, mistrust, objectification of the other --- some of it expressed in comments posted here --- these are things that lead to perpetual war.
The one question I would pose to Zionists --- though the question could be applied to all who choose war as their path: All the violence; the large apartheid wall; all the bombs; all the Palestinian homes that have been bulldozed; all the alleged "terrorists" who have been killed or tortured over these past sixty years --- After all that, do you feel safe? If not, how many more must die until you do?
COMMENT #81 [Permalink]
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Mitch Trachtenberg
said on 1/16/2010 @ 5:26 pm PT...
BlueHawk,
I said I'd get back to you about the Jews against Zionism link. I think I owe you my honest opinion, which is that I think the people behind the link are wacked-out religious nutcases. They are upset that Israel was formed without the proper decree trumpeted by Yahweh from the clouds.
Mick,
I hope you find peace.
99,
We disagree, but if you find a good igloo, please let me know, and maybe we can split broadband charges.
David Lasagna,
Mr. Manners always gets dumped when the subject turns to Israel, sorry. Survival before etiquette, I'm afraid. W/r/t your point 3, I suspect Lerner articulates much of what I feel. W/r/t 6, I apologize to anyone if I've suggested that criticism of Israel is necessarily anti-semitic.
All,
I was born in the late 1950s and grew up in a Jewish neighborhood in New York. Collecting charity for "trees for Israel" was a regular activity, and we were all indoctrinated in Hebrew school about how the State of Israel was pure as the driven snow, and taught about how all the land was purchased from the Arabs. Everybody watched Exodus every year... it was like "It's a Wonderful Life" at Christmas.
I don't know when I realized that what I'd been taught was not precisely true, but I'm sure it still informs my attitudes.
Nevertheless, I do think much of the American left singles out Israel for criticism. This may actually be because of the major, vocal Jewish contingent in the American left and the guilt its members feel about the less-than-perfect behavior of Israel.
Brad,
If my hyperbole that the American left ALWAYS finds Israel to be the nation most worthy of complaint offends (yes, offends) you, let me correct myself: MUCH of the American left OFTEN singles Israel out in ways that are, in my opinion, unfair and inappropriate.
I'll summarize my beliefs and opinions once more, and then leave the discussion to others:
1) Israel came into existence (after Zionism plowed the ground for its creation) as a result of the unprecedented actions of the German government under Hitler. Unprecedented because the entire government apparatus was used to incinerate a people, even when this activity hurt the German war effort.
2) No countries wanted to accept the Jewish refugees. Much of Europe, especially France, was still soaked through and through with anti-semitism, as they are to this day. The Vatican didn't lift a finger to protect Jews, and probably would have preferred that they (we) were all killed.
3) The Roosevelt government in the United States declined to bomb rail lines leading to the ovens, after being told their purpose, without rational reason.
4) The United Nations, acting on the world's shame over what it had allowed to have happen, allowed the State of Israel to come into existence (on, it must be noted, a very small portion of the original British mandate in Palestine).
5) The world thus ended up with an odd situation: a people who had been persecuted for at least 2,000 years, with the persecution culminating in the death of millions at the hand of Europe's "highest" civilization, were offered a refuge in land that already had a population.
6) Israel is thus a very odd nation. It is in a sense a remaining outpost of the colonial West, but it is also the homeland of a people that have been treated as second class citizens and outcasts throughout the rest of the world. The West supports Israel not because of who it is or where it is, but because it is a strategic asset in oil country. In my opinion, anyone who thinks the United States supports Israel thanks to our "shared values" or our "Jewish controlled [fill-in]" is a fool. The United States does what's best for US oil companies and other large corporations.
7) Israel has been repeatedly attacked by its neighbors. It is to a great extent at the mercy of world opinion, though it has nuclear weapons to use as a last resort. The world has forced Israel to give back land it has won in war. This land is now used to launch attacks against the state.
8) Israel has continually offered peace talks to its neighbors, who have continually rebuffed all offers.
9) More than fifty years into statehood, otherwise intelligent people think Israelis should be collectively punished for the inability of the state to fight back against terrorists without killing Arab civilians. Some think they should be forced to move to the South Pole. Others, as stated on the thread, see no problem with Israelis being forced to relocate to the United States, even if they and their parents were born in Palestine.
10) Whether the concept of the Jewish people as a "race" has any foundation in fact, Jews everywhere KNOW that many people consider us second-class Christ-killers, who would be better off dead. We are a group defined, if by nothing else, by the fact that a substantial percentage of the world wants us dead.
11) That definition, and Jews' self-awareness of it, is why Israel has survived, against all odds. The worldwide Jewish community has been fighting with its back against a wall. It is the willful failure of people to understand that the Jewish community feels it will be annihilated if Israel is lost that is my evidence of anti-semitism.
COMMENT #82 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 1/16/2010 @ 5:38 pm PT...
Ernie
Winograd's position on the matter is lucid, and laudable as heck, but the lobby will clobber her for it. They will have no part of that action. They have shown that, forcefully, many's the time. A one state solution with Palestinians in any other role beside dead, gone or serf with no rights is 100% unacceptable to them. Not only will they not have it, they will make sure that no one in the Democratic Party will support her, even if by some miracle she manages to get the seat anyway. That is why people are shocking us with their support for Harman.
The only way Palestinians end up with their human rights on their home turf is as I have mentioned.
This issue has been discussed to death everywhere by reasonable people and the facts on the ground there, or here, have not budged, have only gotten worse. It will be an improvement for American liberals to be able to discuss it without maniacs coming in and whining about Israel's safety, ignoring Israel's military might, backed by ours, and all the killing they've been doing over the course of their history, but that would only begin the long process of shaving a jot of the lobby's power away here, which has no effect on the emergency for Palestinians.
Finkelstein stumps for the two state solution, not because it is the best one—the one Winograd speaks about is—but because that is what has the world's backing, and so therefore is feasible to make happen at all. Israel will not do either option—the one state or the two state—until they are forced and they won't be forced until we force them. In fact, until they are forced to stop, they will keep killing Palestinians and Lebanese until they have an expanded state with all the resources they feel are optimal and no Arabs at all. That has been made perfectly crystal clear.
And, the people interviewed in that video I linked above all explain entirely too clearly that Winograd will get kicked to the curb for her heroism, and why.
So while civil discourse with the ends you have in mind is completely wonderful, and certainly a step in the right direction for American politics, unless and until the Israel lobby here gets serious about saving Israel by forcing it to do the right thing, right away, Palestine is toast and Winograd defeated, even if she wins.
COMMENT #83 [Permalink]
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Mitch Trachtenberg
said on 1/16/2010 @ 5:53 pm PT...
It will be an improvement for American liberals to be able to discuss it without maniacs coming in and whining about Israel's safety, ignoring Israel's military might, backed by ours,
Cancel that broadband.
COMMENT #84 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 1/16/2010 @ 6:07 pm PT...
If it's any consolation, Mitch, I wasn't thinking of you when I said that. I was thinking in general. I have spent a lot of time on this issue and there are always maniacs doing that. There are actually people paid to do that wherever they find the subject, and bands of volunteers. It's been done to death, everywhere, and it's maniacal, even murderous in its way, since it only ever serves to enable more slaughter.
Israel wouldn't be unsafe if it wasn't killing people and stealing their homes and resources, and with their military advantage, and nukes, and us, it's even more ludicrous to invoke their need for safety.
COMMENT #85 [Permalink]
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BlueHawk
said on 1/16/2010 @ 6:26 pm PT...
There is a lot to catch up on.
Brad...point taken. I'm not in complete accordance with everything you wrote...but it's not anything to take big issue with. Thanks
Ernest... Man...you nailed this issue...3rd rail indeed.
99...we're probably closer in mind than others here.
Mitch...I suspected that maybe the site I posted was off-base. But I'm not that aware of Jewish culture and history to make a judgement...thanks for your clarification.
Mitch I will attempt to tackle your points in comment @81
1) Israel came into existence (after Zionism plowed the ground for its creation) as a result of the unprecedented actions of the German government under Hitler. Unprecedented because the entire government apparatus was used to incinerate a people, even when this activity hurt the German war effort.
Mitch...What happened to Jews at the hands of the nazis was unique only in method. Government sponsored holocaust was NOT UNIQUE to Jews.
Human history is littered with holocausts of all peoples at one time or another. My ancestors suffered a watery holocaust dubbed the middle passage...millions perished during the brutal trans-Atlantic crossing on slave ships. That's just one example. I don't want to tit for tat our persecution stories...I just want to demonstrate that what happened to European Jews wasn't singular to them.
2) No countries wanted to accept the Jewish refugees. Much of Europe, especially France, was still soaked through and through with anti-semitism, as they are to this day. The Vatican didn't lift a finger to protect Jews, and probably would have preferred that they (we) were all killed.
May I remind you of Haiti...the present tragedy reminded me of the Haitian boat people turn away at American shores in the 80's I believe...
Again what you describe is not unique to Jews.
Most so called Christian nations have some anti-semetism, anti-Arab, anti African, anti-Asian elements to them...It's called life in the Anglo-Saxon era.
3) The Roosevelt government in the United States declined to bomb rail lines leading to the ovens, after being told their purpose, without rational reason.
Maybe...but I don't see why Arab Palestinians have to suffer for that.
4) The United Nations, acting on the world's shame over what it had allowed to have happen, allowed the State of Israel to come into existence (on, it must be noted, a very small portion of the original British mandate in Palestine).
"The world's shame"?
The world didn't slaughter Jews...nazi Germany did. Arab Palestinians didn't slaughter Jews...nazi Germany did.
6) Israel is thus a very odd nation. It is in a sense a remaining outpost of the colonial West, but it is also the homeland of a people that have been treated as second class citizens and outcasts throughout the rest of the world. The West supports Israel not because of who it is or where it is, but because it is a strategic asset in oil country. In my opinion, anyone who thinks the United States supports Israel thanks to our "shared values" or our "Jewish controlled [fill-in]" is a fool. The United States does what's best for US oil companies and other large corporations.
BINGO!..."Outpost of the colonial west"
That my friend nails it for me...
Other than that it seems you're really displaying a persecution complex, that allows Israel to persecute Palestinians.
7) Israel has been repeatedly attacked by its neighbors. It is to a great extent at the mercy of world opinion, though it has nuclear weapons to use as a last resort. The world has forced Israel to give back land it has won in war. This land is now used to launch attacks against the state.
You mean like most foriegn occupiers experience ?
Bear with me here...
From American media propaganda to Israeli public relations, one would think that Arab Palestinians were the invaders of their own land...and European Jews actually lived there all along.
After wars land usually returns to the people of it's legacy...only imperial invaders occupy a territory imperpetuity.
8) Israel has continually offered peace talks to its neighbors, who have continually rebuffed all offers.
Peace talks under what terms ?
9) More than fifty years into statehood, otherwise intelligent people think Israelis should be collectively punished for the inability of the state to fight back against terrorists without killing Arab civilians. Some think they should be forced to move to the South Pole. Others, as stated on the thread, see no problem with Israelis being forced to relocate to the United States, even if they and their parents were born in Palestine.
Israel used terror in it's fight with Britain. The British labeled Menachem Begin it's #1 terrorist.
I saw no one suggest that Israelis be "forced" anywhere. I stated in response to your question that after WWII where would Jews have gone ? I suggested the U.S., England, France etc.
No one suggested that Jews be forced anywhere.
10) Whether the concept of the Jewish people as a "race" has any foundation in fact, Jews everywhere KNOW that many people consider us second-class Christ-killers, who would be better off dead. We are a group defined, if by nothing else, by the fact that a substantial percentage of the world wants us dead.
There's that persecution complex again...Actually a substantial portion of the world has no ill feelings what so ever about Jews.
11) That definition, and Jews' self-awareness of it, is why Israel has survived, against all odds. The worldwide Jewish community has been fighting with its back against a wall. It is the willful failure of people to understand that the Jewish community feels it will be annihilated if Israel is lost that is my evidence of anti-semitism.
As have most non-white, non Christian people...again Jews aren't unique in that attribute.
The world is on the brink of annihilation. Because a portion of Jews feel it is their divine right to occupy a certain land...no other people in the world have made that kind of claim to land and had the UN grant it. Excuse the Arab Palestinians for feeling that the fix was in.
It's amazing how this actually doves tails nicely to Frank Schaeffer's Endtimers piece...because the actuality of Israel plays very nicely into the Endtimers plans for Armeggedon. And Israel is playing right along.
COMMENT #86 [Permalink]
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BlueHawk
said on 1/16/2010 @ 6:36 pm PT...
Ernest @80
The one question I would pose to Zionists --- though the question could be applied to all who choose war as their path: All the violence; the large apartheid wall; all the bombs; all the Palestinian homes that have been bulldozed; all the alleged "terrorists" who have been killed or tortured over these past sixty years --- After all that, do you feel safe? If not, how many more must die until you do?
Ewrnest those are great words...and the question of the century.
COMMENT #87 [Permalink]
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Mitch Trachtenberg
said on 1/16/2010 @ 6:56 pm PT...
BlueHawk @ 85,
What can I say? Thanks for listening. But I feel that my comments @ 81 and your reply @ 85 pretty much sum up the problem --- people look at the elephant and focus on completely different parts.
I understand you think I'm displaying a persecution complex. Perhaps I am. As they say about the paranoid, it doesn't mean nobody's out to get them.
If I'm giving the impression I think the Jews are history's "best" victims, I apologize; that's certainly not my intention. I'm well aware of the enormous suffering of others, including that of Palestinians at the hand of Jews and blacks at the hand of slave traders and slave owners.
But please recognize that not everyone that supports Israel is doing it because they think Jews have a divine right to that particular land.
COMMENT #88 [Permalink]
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mick
said on 1/16/2010 @ 7:46 pm PT...
"But please recognize that not everyone that supports Israel is doing it because they think Jews have a divine right to that particular land. "
M.T. Then why are they blind to the many hypocrisy's .Just a single example for now.Iran wants a Nuclear Power Program (as they are entitled) ,they allow inspection (IAEA) and conduct open conversation about their desire and has signed the NPT.
Whereas Israel HAS NUCLEAR WEAPONS ,refuses to allow inspection and will not sign the NPT.
And who is pressing the hardest for sanction against Iran ?Who is threatening to attack Iran ?Who is behind the lie that Ahmadinejad wants to "wipe Israel off the map."
"'By Way Of Deception, Thou Shalt Do War'" is Mossad's motto and it seems to be embraced by many in Israel.
COMMENT #89 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 1/16/2010 @ 10:27 pm PT...
Agent 99--(then Mitch)
Just my impression--I can agree with much that you say through these posts but you say everything with what sounds like extreme attitude. I'm with you being upset at the treatment of the Palestinians and at the present time, since the Israelis possess overwhelmingly superior strength and means, I assign more of the responsibility of the current difficulties to them.
But you sound so angry. You sound like you have no understanding or compassion for the fact that the Jews have been battered throughout history. You write as if the present injustices they commit are not connected to hundreds and hundreds of years of suffering and persecution.
I'm afraid speaking of or to people who have not recovered psychologically or emotionally from centuries of mistreatment, a people who are, in my view, acting irrationally(and at times unconscionably) cuz they are freaked out, will only supply further justification for them to freak out, no matter how valid your points. Thus, I would guess, doing little to alter or interrupt the cycle of violence you're so upset about.
I think I see evidence of this in Mitch's responses. You're pushing his buttons. And he seems to be a thoughtful guy living thousands of miles away from the immediate tensions. I strongly concur with Ernest's sentiments and Rabbi Lerner's. To have any hope of movement, working through this vast complicated, longstanding conflict we must go further than we have before. We must realize and act from true mutual understanding, support, sympathy, absolutely even-handed criticism, love and generosity. Yes, the Jews are being the aggressors now but they are a battered and persecuted people. When you rail about these matters, no matter how much truth you have on your side, I can't imagine that a battered, persecuted people will likely be able to hear anything but somebody else ready to get them.
Mitch, some of your words feel to me like a similar thing from the other side. I'm with you pretty well up to point 6, then, in places, I don't think you're giving the Palestinian side a fair shake. And I think you're stating some things that may not be accurate.
For instance the Saudi Plan sounds like a pretty good possibility that was repeatedly offered(wasn't it?)that the Israelis wouldn't consider. And I don't have this at my mental finger tips but I've even read of Iranian concessions/acknowledgments that were rebuffed.(My memory of this is it was not part of any kind of anti-semitic rant. Maybe it was from Greenwald? Don't know really. Sorry, I'm just a guy reading a lot, taking some notes, and trying to pay attention. I don't know how Brad, and Ernie, and Greenwald have all these attributions at their fingertips all the time. Amazes me.) And the Israelis have initiated attacks too. And I think your caricaturizations of Israeli responses falls dramatically short giving an unrealistic and woefully mild representation of the severity of Israeli attacks on a battered and hostage population.
So when I read Agent 99 and Mitch I agree with a lot of their points and history and then I either cringe or am saddened because it looks like the age old elements of not being truly fair to the other side rising again and again. Again, I agree with Ernie, Brad, and Lerner, that's the dynamic that must be changed.
(I'm a peasant. I'm very slow. I taught myself to type sorta. These things take me forever to write. And it hurts my eyes.)
COMMENT #90 [Permalink]
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Mitch Trachtenberg
said on 1/16/2010 @ 10:41 pm PT...
Mick @88,
"President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said here Monday that the Zionist Regime of Israel faces a deadend and will under God's grace be wiped off the map."
Source: Website of the Presidency of the Islamic Republic of Iran, located at
http://www.president.ir/en/?ArtID=10114
COMMENT #91 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 1/16/2010 @ 11:02 pm PT...
COMMENT #92 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 1/16/2010 @ 11:50 pm PT...
99 - You have said that Mitch is "just wrong", because that's apparently what you want to believe. But it doesn't seem as if you even bothered to read the link he offered. It is from Ahmadinejad's own official Iran presidency webpage (presumably, unless it's a very clever CIA fake or some such), in which it claims, in English, that he said:
"O dear Imam (Khomeini)! You said the Zionist Regime that is a usurper and illegitimate regime and a cancerous tumor should be wiped off the map. I should say that your illuminating remark and cause is going to come true today. ... the Zionist regime faces a complete deadend and under God's grace your wish will soon be materialized and the corrupt element will be wiped off the map," said President Ahmadinejad.
Now I personally believe the sturm and drang over Ahmadinejad is a whole bunch of bluster and nonsense, frankly, and largely inflated so as to give the U.S. (and Israel) the next great Satan, since God knows we just must always have one waiting in the wings.
But despite what the author at your link argues --- and even that explanation of the comments shows Ahmadinejad repeatedly refusing the opportunity to disassociate from them or clarify them in multiple interviews --- if the official website of the "Presidency of the Islamic Republic of Iran" says what it does, as quoted above, I'm not sure how you can simply say "Mitch, You are just wrong."
The author of your page goes on to argue that the comments were mistranslated, and then opportunistically abused. I have no doubt that opportunists have done everything they can to demonize Ahmadinejad (and he's given them plenty of easy reason to do so in the bargain, btw, as he doesn't appear to be the brightest bulb in the pack), but where Norouzi attempts to make the case that it's all just one big mistranslation and that "Big news agencies such as The Associated Press and Reuters refer to the misquote, literally, on an almost daily basis" and that "major damage has already been done" by that, "providing the groundwork for the next phase of disinformation: complete character demonization", well, it looks to me like Ahmadinejad has done that to himself, as evidenced by Mitch's link, and continues to do exactly that to this day.
Sorry. But I'd have to call "advantage Mitch" on that particular point, for what it's worth (which is, in my opinion, not very much, btw.)
COMMENT #93 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 1/16/2010 @ 11:53 pm PT...
Iran has never threatened to attack or to wipe Israel from the map. They have been the only people decent enough to help Lebanese and Palestinians defend themselves from attacks by Israel.
Again, Israel would be perfectly safe if it did not keep murdering its neighbors, and it is safe from attack by another country because attacking Israel would be suicide. As it stands, compliance with U.N. resolutions would suffice to keep it perfectly safe for a very, very long time. They won't do it. They prefer slaughtering and torturing people, and keeping them locked up in ghettos without enough food, medicine, water or building materials to recover from periodic pogroms, where they use white phosphorus to burn women and children to unrecognizable remnants of blackened flesh, to complying with U.N. resolutions.
COMMENT #94 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 1/17/2010 @ 12:00 am PT...
I read it Brad. It's the same translator, IRNA, as from the last time, and EVEN if he said what it says he said, that was not a threat to Israel. It wasn't even a threat to the Israeli government. It was a statement that these bad guys are dead enders and cannot last. But really, the Khomeini stuff Ahmadinejad is talking about was a reference to regimes disappearing from the pages of time.
Decent people revile the actions of the Israelis, and for whatever else might be unlikable about the Iranian government, their defense of decency in this matter is actually beautiful, and no threat to people of good will. Ahmadinejad, in fact, when pressed on this question, the question of the resolution of the Palestine problem, he always says "Put it to a vote."
COMMENT #95 [Permalink]
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mick
said on 1/17/2010 @ 12:01 am PT...
Mitch Trachtenberg from your linked site the ACTUAL quote was ...
"O dear Imam (Khomeini)! You said the Zionist Regime that is a usurper and illegitimate regime and a cancerous tumor should be wiped off the map. I should say that your illuminating remark and cause is going to come true today. The Zionist Regime has lost its existence philosophy... the Zionist regime faces a complete deadend and under God's grace your wish will soon be materialized and the corrupt element will be wiped off the map," said President Ahmadinejad.
As you can see "You said" was referring to comments made by Khomeini not by Ahmadinejad himself .
Do you have an answer to the double standard accorded to Israel regarding the Nuclear hypocrisy ?
COMMENT #96 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 1/17/2010 @ 12:05 am PT...
I have spent hours and hours and hours and months and years studying this stuff closely. Ahmadinejad often refuses to answer rude questions from jackasses with no moral or decent reason to be grilling him, much to our indecent irk, but he has, if anyone bothers to do the work, repeatedly mentioned peaceful resolution of the issue. It's just not the resolution the Israelis like... would stop them stealing more land and resources... no excuse left.
COMMENT #97 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 1/17/2010 @ 12:10 am PT...
99 @ 94 said:
I read it Brad. It's the same translator, IRNA, as from the last time, and EVEN if he said what it says he said, that was not a threat to Israel. It wasn't even a threat to the Israeli government.
If you don't understand such language to be a threat, particularly to a country like Israel which has been attacked for years on end by every country which surrounds it, and then some, I'll just ask you: Had George W. Bush, or even Barack Obama said the "Iranian Regime is illegitimate and a cancerous tumor and should be wiped off the map and under God's grace will soon be and will be wiped off the map", would you consider Bush or Obama to be threatening Iran? Do you think Iran would consider that as a threat?
If you don't, or they wouldn't, then both you and they are either being disingenuous, or have no clue about how international diplomacy works (or doesn't). I'm quite sure you'd have busted yet another artery had Bush or Obama ever said such a thing.
So to quote, um, you: You are just wrong.
COMMENT #98 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 1/17/2010 @ 12:11 am PT...
Agent 99
Thanks for the Frankie, I'm flattered.
Mitch I had more support and more presumptuous unsolicited suggestions to offer, but it's almost three a.m., I'm a little under the weather at the moment with a phlegmhead, and I need to seek unconsciousness.
Much continued love and appreciation for the opportunities and efforts all around here at the Brad. I was at a little birthday party of a good friend earlier tonight. Only a select five to play some music. The music was fun. At one point a little political discussion ensued and in very short order the other four were united in a pretty aggressive dismissal of the Lasagna. Here's the thing. Many of my friends and family are smarter than I. But I'm studying what's going on all the time and they're not. Who can? So I'm in this weird position where I feel I'm with smarter people who don't know as much and so appear as children.
And that's why it's so great to be able to come here and feel like I'm in my tribe. Even if it is in cyberspace. Even with the disagreements, we are in so many ways on the same page. More than once responses I've received here have brought tears to my eyes. A little acknowledgment goes a long way.
COMMENT #99 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 1/17/2010 @ 12:18 am PT...
Seeing as how the U.S. has been attacking other countries like there's no tomorrow, I would most certainly view that as a threat, but seeing as how Iran has not attacked another country in, what? Centuries? Did not actually threaten. Has actually proposed resolving it with a vote. No. It does not qualify as a threat. It qualifies as Iranians being cocky, not cowering in the face of a nuclear threat for having the decency to help defenseless people protect themselves.
COMMENT #100 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 1/17/2010 @ 12:26 am PT...
David L. - There's no one's tribe I'd rather be in. Peace be wi' you tonight...
COMMENT #101 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 1/17/2010 @ 12:30 am PT...
Well, and I guess you should listen to some of the scholarship extant on the history of Israel. Turns out it has been almost exclusively Israelis doing the attacking. You can't really be calling what the Arabs have done to try to keep or regain what is theirs "attacking"....
It may be true Israel was under heavy threat at the start, and, no wonder! But there hasn't been a real threat for a long time now, and what discomfort they have had to endure from dispossessed and hungry and sick Palestinians would cease as soon as Israel complied with the U.N. resolutions. Israel is not persecuted. Israel is doing the persecuting.
COMMENT #102 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 1/17/2010 @ 12:33 am PT...
And their lobby is having none of this "progressive" business if it means they have to comply with those resolutions. So they're not just ruining the Middle East, they're also ruining our chances against fascism.
COMMENT #103 [Permalink]
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mick
said on 1/17/2010 @ 1:37 am PT...
UN Resolution 242 should be a minimum starting point.
And "settlements" ,man "settlements" are unbelievable ,can you actually imagine somebody doing that in your town or city ?
Talk about "Beyond Chutzpah".Not to mention "compelling evidence of a state-sponsored oppression and subjugation of the Palestinian people."
COMMENT #104 [Permalink]
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BlueHawk
said on 1/17/2010 @ 8:23 am PT...
Brad @76
I'll reply to your comment now...You sent me to reading, I thank you for that.
That said. A couple of replies to Blue Hawk at various, who said:
And please don't tell me that the United States was an unwelcoming nation for persecuted Jews.
Of course it was, BH. Sounds like your not familiar with the history of anti-semetism in the U.S.A fine place to start is with the story of the MS St. Louis which, in 1939, brought hundreds of persecuted Jews fleeing Nazi Germany, only to be refused port in the U.S. by FDR. They were sent back to the death camps. You can read more about that beginning here.
Brad the Jewish population in the U.S. is a very close second to that of Israel. Just because anti-semetism exists in the U.S. doesn't mean that Jews can't predominately live here as a welcomed presence.
Brad, America hasn't been very nice to ANY people not of Anglo-Saxon heritage...hell even ethnic whites were treated rather badly...see Irish, Italian and Polish history. It's tragic what happened to the folks on the MS St.Louis....but that doesn't preclude that millions of Jews have thrived in America.
Come on Brad...
the holocaust was simply a Jewish justification for disenfranchiing Arab Palestinians.
That's utter nonsense, as others have spoken to here I believe (thank you, Ernie). I believe you're a good guy, BH, so don't believe you had any ill-will in your beliefs. But they are rather misguided --- and/or skewed by some pretty ugly (likely purposely anti-Semitic) propaganda --- on this point.
Brad...my research led me to this...
Zionist founder Theodor Herzl (1860 – 1904) said:
It is essential that the suffering of Jews… becomes worse… this will assist in (the) realization of our plans… I have an excellent idea… I shall induce anti-semites to liquidate Jewish wealth…. The anti-semites will assist us thereby in that they will strengthen the persecution and oppression of Jews. The anti-semites shall be our best friends.
In 1920, other Zionists voiced similar ideas, including Nahum Goldmann, later president of the World Zionist Organization and World Jewish Congress head. Israel’s first president, Chaim Weizman, said Germany had too many Jews. In 1921, Jacob Klatzkin called for German Jews to undermine Jewish communities as a way to acquire a future state.
Conflating anti-Zionism with Anti-Semitism....
The conflation happens for a reason. Because MUCH of the anti-Zionism in both the U.S. and around the world is, in fact, an easy mask for Anti-Semitism. That's just one of the reasons the discussion is so difficult to have, and one of the reasons why Jews tend to be so (understandably, but overly) touchy about it.
My research has led me to numerous Jewish sites that indeed agree with me that anti-Zionism is NOT anti-semetism.
There are many, many more links I can provide that state rather rationally and reasonably that those that confuse anti-Zionism with anti-semetism aren't being fair.
I see it akin to the affirmative action debate with black folk...I don't see all whites who are against affirmative action as racist, although I may disagree with them. I will grant you that some whites who are against affirmative action are indeed covert racists. All people against Zionism aren't anti-semetic...most are simply pro-justice.
Here's another resource I found to be enlightening...as I stated to Mitch. I would welcome your criticism/reaction of this link...it would be helpful in my understanding of this critical, third rail issue.
COMMENT #105 [Permalink]
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Mitch Trachtenberg
said on 1/17/2010 @ 9:14 am PT...
BlueHawk,
It might be helpful if I expanded on what you characterize as a "persecution complex." (I'm not saying you're wrong, just that more info can be helpful.)
While many on the left think of Israel as a US puppet, that's not how most Jews I know think of it. I'll speak for myself, but I think I'm pretty representative of a whole lot of secular Jews.
We do not trust that the United States will continue to be a "safe haven." Germany was considered a "safe haven." We don't share many people's belief that much of Washington is controlled by the Zionist lobby. We think we are one or two Pat Robertsons away from being demonized, and it scares us when Israel is singled out as a Nazi state for reasons we don't see.
We do not think that, because the United States backs Israel today, it will not turn Israel into a bargaining chip tomorrow. Therefore, we believe that Israel needs to be able to protect itself (using methods less self-destructive than nuclear threats).
In order for Israel to be able to defend itself, it needs defensible borders. Unfortunately, in order for Israel to reliably remain a safe haven for Jews, it must be careful about any refugee resettlement policies. That is horrible, but true. The fact that it is horrible does not make it less of a stumbling block in negotiations. It's our belief that the Arab states have sacrificed generations of Palestinian refugees in order to be able to use them for political reasons.
BlueHawk, I think I saw part of the problem when you replied "BINGO" to my sixth point. It appeared that you read "colonial outpost" and stopped, because I'd finally said something with which you agreed.
I think the challenge for people of good will on both sides of this situation is to learn to fully read and absorb what we DISAGREE with, letting our preconceptions be challenged by, if nothing else, alternate interpretations of facts. It helps to learn to take a few deep breaths between reading a "wrong" statement and responding with "why it's wrong."
Mick, 99, etc...
The quote I used above, @ 90, was cut and pasted from the Iranian Presidency's web site.
COMMENT #106 [Permalink]
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Mitch Trachtenberg
said on 1/17/2010 @ 9:35 am PT...
BlueHawk,
One more point. The slave trade represented a horrible side of human nature; the willingness of one people to dehumanize another in order to make money. It was about greed and bigotry.
What, in my opinion, makes the situation with Nazi Germany different is that the Nazis were not interested in profiting from the dehumanization of Jews, they just wanted them dead. (Some Nazi's profited, of course, but this was not the primary motivation. Hatred was the primary motivation.)
The equivalent would have been slave traders investing their time in intentionally murdering slaves as they transported them, rather than trying to keep them barely alive for sale.
I hope you can see that I'm not trying to pooh-pooh the slave trade.
COMMENT #107 [Permalink]
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mick
said on 1/17/2010 @ 9:56 am PT...
NOW matters the past we can and should learn from.At this very moment in Gaza people are being held prisoner ! They are being treated like animals NOW.They dig tunnels to get supplies of essential goods into their prison NOW.They are dieing from lack of medical access NOW.Its winter there NOW and they are denied building materials to repair their bomb damaged homes NOW.Israel is building more thirty foot high walls to keep Palestinians from their land NOW.
MT said "My issue is that, with all the incredible cruelty that nations invoke on their minority populations, the one that always gets singled out as an example of modern-day Nazism is the one that was founded by a group of people with nowhere else to go. The Jews where a minority in Palestine before 1948 and they where treated with respect and friendship by the Palestinians for hundreds of years.So the comment "the one that always gets singled out as an example of modern-day Nazism" is not without reason.After all Gaza IS the modern day Warsaw Ghetto.
The question is what can be done NOW to help end the subjugation of the Palestinian people.
COMMENT #108 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 1/17/2010 @ 9:59 am PT...
Mitch, from a comment Brad posted on his separate article, Easily Hacked Diebold Systems to Decide 'Toss-Up' U.S. Senate Special Election in MA on Tuesday, I see that there is at least one issue, election integrity, in which you and I are probably in complete agreement.
With that, as well as the sincerity of your comments, in mind I hope you will be amenable to answering a few questions.
In an earlier comment I discussed an Haaretz article which said:
The Obama Administration will put forth new peace initiatives only if Israel wants it to, said Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman in his first comprehensive interview on foreign policy since taking office.
"Believe me, America accepts all our decisions," Lieberman told the Russian daily Moskovskiy Komosolets.
This appears to coincide with the thrust of Pres. Carter's assessment, as well as the point I made in this piece that "within the confines of the political elites inside Congress there exists near unanimity entailing unquestioning support for whatever Israel chooses to do."
1. Do you believe Avigdor Lieberman's assessment is accurate?
2. Do you think it healthy for any nation (in this case the U.S.) to blindly accept what another nation (here Israel) chooses to do?
3. Are there any aspects of Israel's treatment of Palestinians with which you personally disagree? Any you find abhorrent?
Throughout your many comments you reference "the American Left." As it pertains to matters unrelated to either Israel or the Middle East, what description (hard-right, conservative, moderate, liberal, progressive, radical left) most accurately describes your political views.
Do you see any inconsistency in those American Jews (and keep in mind that since my mother was Jewish I'm not completely unrelated to the tribe) who see themselves as progressives everywhere else in U.S. policy, but when Israel becomes the centerpiece of the conversation, they move to the right of Likud?
COMMENT #109 [Permalink]
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Mitch Trachtenberg
said on 1/17/2010 @ 10:15 am PT...
Ernest @108,
1. No, I don't believe the assessment.
2. No, of course not.
3. Have you actually read what I've written? Of course I find Sabra and Shatila abhorrent war crimes, for which those in charge should be jailed. I don't doubt that some members of the Israeli armed forces have, at some times, caused needless death. Now please keep reading. I do not believe that Israeli forces seek out opportunities to murder Palestinian civilians, when the Israeli forces do not believe that terrorists are hiding behind the civilians. I cannot say the same for Hamas.
No, I obviously don't see any inconsistency in my positions or I would adjust them, and I disagree with your characterization in your last paragraph.
As to whether I am left or right, here's someone who has channeled my thoughts:
http://www.smithbowen.ne...linfame/pledge/ru12.html
and
http://www.smithbowen.ne...ame/stopme/contents.html
COMMENT #110 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 1/17/2010 @ 11:48 am PT...
For what it's worth--
(this tale comes around to our topic)
Last night at my friend's little birthday music party during a brief political discussion the other four party goers--all bright, talented, accomplished, and quite liberal-- turned on me.
My heresy--I had just recently come to the unwelcome, weird, and discomfiting conclusion that I probably am not going to vote in Tuesday's special election here in Massachusetts. This article by Russell Mokhiber-
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/01/15-10
and then a robo-call from Obama where I felt I was being lied to being the pivot points.(additional robos by Bill Clinton and right now Joe Biden).
My friends were dismissive and angry. You HAVE to vote. You HAVE to try to keep the Republicans out.
I think I may have given some the impression here that I am a gentle soul. I think I am that or hope I am. Sometimes. But I'm also half Italian and a Scorpio. A temper that can burn white hot in a cerebro-second comes with the territory.
I spend way too much time alone studying all this political shit. I am committed to learning but there is so much heartbreak, rage, frustration, estrangement, and helplessness to feel and navigate through along the way as you go through the painstaking but vitally important work of finding out what is what.
So when my friends turned on me as one you best believe I had the energy to take them on. With heat. I went into war mode. The birthday boy did, too. He was on the verge of asking me to leave(I know this cuz he threatened to kick me out if I kept talking, at which point I went to pack up my guitar.)
The group kinda said, whoa, whoa. I asked if I could say one thing.
I told them I didn't mind them disagreeing with me but I resented being dismissed. I read stuff every day, studying this stuff all the time, and you might not agree with my position but I damn well have one, there are good reasons for it, and I would like to be listened to with respect and have my viewpoint acknowledged.
My point-
It's about being heard. It's about being listened to. As Eqbal Ahmad says about the causes of terrorism-- first, the need to be heard.
This was just a tiny discussion at a little party. And I was ready to go to war and so were others. As soon as I stopped making war, I found a place to offer something with much less aggression. This in turn provided a space for at least some to give me acknowledgment. Things began calming down.
This morning I thought about what an incredibly powerful thing listening is. I don't think we give it its due. I don't think there's much awareness for what a proactive activity the seemingly passive act of listening is. I don't think we(as a culture)recognize the enormous course altering power that lies within it, unused, waiting to be activated.
If I felt that strongly last night about not being heard/acknowledged imagine the feelings generated from having your ailing grandmother or birthing wife die at a checkpoint. Or from your fears of annihilation being met with anger and scorn.
If we want the mideast to be different, WE have to be different. That means all of us.
COMMENT #111 [Permalink]
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Mitch Trachtenberg
said on 1/17/2010 @ 11:53 am PT...
COMMENT #112 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 1/17/2010 @ 11:54 am PT...
BlueHawk @ 104:
This continues to be a horrible time for me to fully participate (read all and/or write) in this thread. So apologies, in advance, once again for being overly terse in response right now.
Brad the Jewish population in the U.S. is a very close second to that of Israel. Just because anti-semetism exists in the U.S. doesn't mean that Jews can't predominately live here as a welcomed presence.
Your assertion I was responding to was: "please don't tell me that the United States was an unwelcoming nation for persecuted Jews."
The "was", as I recall, was in reference to the early formation of Israel following the Holocaust when the U.S. was not as welcoming for persecuted Jews as it is now (since the Holocaust!) That's why I gave you the link to the story of the MS St. Louis and FDR's horrible (though much more representative of U.S. in general at the time) position on persecuted Jewry.
It's tragic what happened to the folks on the MS St.Louis....but that doesn't preclude that millions of Jews have thrived in America.
Come on Brad...
I never suggested otherwise. So, um, come on BlueHawk. Let's not argue straw men here.
Brad...my research led me to this...
Zionist founder Theodor Herzl (1860 - 1904) said:
I looked at your link, and found no sourcing for that quote from Herzl. No clue if it was taken out of context (there are certainly a lot of ellipses in that quote!) or if it's even authentic in any way. Smells like it's not. Even so, I don't know Herzl, have no stake in his position or his beliefs even if that quote is actually real and accurate, nor do I sense that it reflects the beliefs of *any* current supporters of Israel. If it is authentic and accurate --- which I'm highly dubious of, in any case --- I find it abhorrent, and NOT representative of any Jew or supporter of Israel I've ever known in my life (and believe me, I've known, and still know plenty!)
My research has led me to numerous Jewish sites that indeed agree with me that anti-Zionism is NOT anti-semetism.
Again, straw man argument there. Never said that that anti-Zionism was ALWAYS anti-Semitism. I said, as you even quoted back, but don't seem to have read carefully [so I'll quote it back again, and add even more emphasis this time]: "The conflation [of anti-Zionism with Anti-Semitism] happens for a reason. Because MUCH of the anti-Zionism in both the U.S. and around the world is, in fact, an easy mask for Anti-Semitism."
I'll stand by that argument whole-heartedly, and with much real-world, first-hand experience to back it up. On a very regular basis, unfortunately.
And for clarity, while "MUCH" of the anti-Zionism is, in fact, an easy mask for Anti-Semitism, much of it is not. Much of it is fully legitimate scholarship and political opinion in the best interest of the U.S. and even Jews and Israel, even as much of that fully legitimate anti-Zionism is often fueled by those who are masking their Anti-Semitism and too many (perhaps even you, in this instance here) are unknowingly manipulated by some of those Anti-Semites.
There are many, many more links I can provide that state rather rationally and reasonably that those that confuse anti-Zionism with anti-semetism aren't being fair.
I concur. It's done far too often, largely by knee-jerks who will hear nothing of any sort of criticism of Israel and her policies (and U.S. policies in support thereof). Ultimately, I believe that does a disservice to both Israel and the U.S., which is just one of the reasons I'm happy to have, and to have hosted, this conversation here.
I see it akin to the affirmative action debate with black folk...I don't see all whites who are against affirmative action as racist, although I may disagree with them. I will grant you that some whites who are against affirmative action are indeed covert racists. All people against Zionism aren't anti-semetic...most are simply pro-justice.
I never made the argument that "All people against Zionism [are] anti-Semitic", so that's a straw man argument on your behalf again. I believe your measured position on the affirmative action debate, as described above, is almost identical to mine on the anti-Zionism/Semitism issue. While I can't say "most are simply pro-justice", as I have no measure for that, and it could as well be either a majority or a minority, I don't know, I can tell you with certainty there is a large number for whom their stance against Israel is based on Anti-Semitism.
For purposes of this conversation, however, I'd love to believe that NONE of the opinions expressed on this thread, at this blog, are based in anti-Semitism, even as I believe that many of the positions expressed here have, in fact, been fueled/influenced by those who are anti-Semitic.
Here's another resource I found to be enlightening...as I stated to Mitch. I would welcome your criticism/reaction of this link...it would be helpful in my understanding of this critical, third rail issue.
Unfortunately, I don't have time to dig into much reading on this topic at all for the moment. But I thank you for the link, and will try to look into it when I can. That said, I might challenge *everybody* here to read sites and scholarship which opposes/challenges their current points of view, rather than seeking scholarship that supports/bouys it.
For example, there seems to be a great lack of understanding or appreciation for the circumstances under which the "two sides" (Israeli v. Arab/Palestinian) have gotten to the seemingly-intractable point where they now are. Much, if not all, of what the Palestinians now seek, for example, was offered to them many years ago by the original U.N. plan, but they refused it. (Not taking a position on if it was refused for good reason or not, merely pointing out that it was offered, and that they fight now for what they could have had with no bloodshed whatsoever previously --- Jerusalem for example --- because I don't sense that there is a deep understanding of some of those issues by many in this thread. And that is just by way of one example of where knowledge seems to be lacking/overlooked here.)
I'm quite sure we can all go out and find stuff that supports our pre-existing beliefs. But in reading this thread (as much as I've been able), it seems quite clear that folks on both sides of this issue (at least those who seem hard in one camp or the other) spend more time looking for stuff to shore up their own pre-existing beliefs than they do in seeking information that challenges it. That seems to me precisely the reason we are all in this mess in the first place.
COMMENT #113 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 1/17/2010 @ 12:04 pm PT...
Dear Mitch, you say--
I do not believe that Israeli forces seek out opportunities to murder Palestinian civilians, when the Israeli forces do not believe that terrorists are hiding behind the civilians.
I believe there is much, much evidence that this is not an accurate statement. I think it's safe to say this is true for some members of the IDF but according to the first hand accounts I've read in The Other Israel, Healing Israel/Palestine, and current articles by Israelis(occasionally at Commondreams)there has been much deliberate violence perpetrated against unarmed non-threatening Palestinian citizens.
COMMENT #114 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 1/17/2010 @ 12:10 pm PT...
Dear Mitch @ comment #111--
Thanks for the link. Very sweet.
COMMENT #115 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 1/17/2010 @ 12:23 pm PT...
Brad at @112, you say--
For example, there seems to be a great lack of understanding or appreciation for the circumstances under which the "two sides" (Israeli v. Arab/Palestinian) have gotten to the seemingly-intractable point where they now are. Much, if not all, of what the Palestinians now seek, for example, was offered to them many years ago by the original U.N. plan, but they refused it.
Again, have to go to Rabbi Lerner's book(possibly info on this in The Other Israel also) as that's my bible on this. I don't have them in my head, I can find them if you'd like, but what I get from Lerner is that there have been PLENTY of times when BOTH sides have refused offers that would have provided what they had previously stated they wanted/needed. According to him the intractability has been nicely shared with many missed opportunities on both sides.
COMMENT #116 [Permalink]
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Mitch Trachtenberg
said on 1/17/2010 @ 12:29 pm PT...
Here's the first link that a search for "Israeli violence against unarmed Palestinians" brings up:
http://www.guardian.co.u...-gaza-deaths-allegations
If you read the entire article, you'll see it includes an Israeli government response.
The Gaza strip was occupied by Israel, was returned by Israel to Palestinian control as part of the peace with Egypt, and is now run by Hamas, which is pledged to the destruction of Israel.
There is no debate that Hamas uses the Gaza Strip to launch attacks against Israeli civilians --- Hamas itself is proud of this. The Gaza strip is a four mile by twenty five mile territory that borders Israel. It is about forty to sixty miles from Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.
The question is, how do you fight back against those who are launching rockets against your civilians while they are dispersed through their own civilian population? Israelis have asserted that Hamas intentionally locates in and near hospitals and schools.
What's the answer? I don't know. But I'd be surprised if there is any military in the world that can fight in a situation like this without some members dehumanizing all civilians in the region and without others shooting out of personal fear.
The solution Israel has sought is for Hamas not to use civilians as shields --- that's a clear violation of the "law of war," such as it is. But Hamas, being terrorists (or freedom-fighters, if you wish) has continued to hide within the civilian population.
David, let's say you and your parents were born in a country that may or may not be legitimate, but is the only home you've ever known. You are drafted, as are all people your age, into the country's army, and asked to keep your population safe.
Rockets are launched from an area regularly, by people who then melt into the civilian population. You are told that these people have a great deal of support from their civilian population. The area had previously been occupied by your country, and during that occupation you'd been able to ensure that rockets were not launched from it.
What would you do?
COMMENT #117 [Permalink]
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czaragorn
said on 1/17/2010 @ 12:37 pm PT...
Kudos, Brad! I love being a citizen of Bradville! This has been a great discussion! And to all you others, liberal hugs all around!!! That said, I have a couple of bones to pick, as I sit here in Prague's deeping, wintry evening.
Mitch, I would respectfully point out that it is against international law to keep possession of occupied land that is "won in war" - period. Also, you said:
"Nevertheless, I do think much of the American left singles out Israel for criticism. This may actually be because of the major, vocal Jewish contingent in the American left and the guilt its members feel about the less-than-perfect behavior of Israel."
Well, I, for one at least, consider genocide (or ethnic cleansing, if that makes you feel better) to fall just a tad short of "less-than-perfect behavior," and I didn't arrive at this conclusion because of the Jewish contingent on the left. Crimes against humanity are just that.
I greatly enjoy dropping in on BartCop's Tequila Treehouse from time to time, and he wisely, in my opinion, refrains from expressing any position as to the religious madness that has always torn and continues to tear our world apart. He did present a credible option, though, in my opinion: Why not give the Israelis a band, say fifty miles wide, along the entire US/Mexico border? Nice deserty conditions, tons of sand that could be declared sacred, and no more need for a Berlin/Israel-style wall to keep the Mexicans out! Voila! Who said a blog is no place to solve the world's problems?
And so it's off to bed for this old man. To sleep, perhaps to dream, of a more peaceful world. BlueHawk and NeufNeuf: Please keep kicking ass and taking names in my absence!
Love and Peace, Bob
COMMENT #118 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 1/17/2010 @ 12:42 pm PT...
All this talk about moving to the North Pole has me shivering. I'm a SoCal boy, 99. I hate the cold!
COMMENT #119 [Permalink]
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czaragorn
said on 1/17/2010 @ 1:00 pm PT...
Oh yes, one more point: It's not what I'd consider fair play to repeatedly kick a starving dog and then declare it a "terrorist" for biting your foot!
COMMENT #120 [Permalink]
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Mitch Trachtenberg
said on 1/17/2010 @ 1:13 pm PT...
I hear Prague is incredibly beautiful, Czaragorn, and I think you've found a great place to explore genocide.
http://humboldt.edu/~res...book/Chlup/czechcon.html
"Before the German takeover, approximately three hundred and fifty thousand Jews lived in Czechoslovakia, one third in Bohemia and Moravia. They enjoyed the same civil rights and religous freedom as all other Czech citizens. On June 21, 1939, von Neurath issued a long list of anti-Jewish decrees, essentially identical to those in effect in Germany, designed to destroy the economic viability of the Jewish population and confiscate all Jewish property. In October 1939, the first Czech Jews were deported to concentration camps in Poland. By October 1942, seventy-five percent of Czechoslovakian Jews had been deported, most of them killed at Auschwitz.
German power in Czechoslovakia finally ended on May 11, 1945 when Russian soldiers liberated Prague. Only twenty thousand Czechoslovakian Jews survived."
COMMENT #121 [Permalink]
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Mitch Trachtenberg
said on 1/17/2010 @ 1:19 pm PT...
Hmmm, the genocide by Israel against the Palestinians...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people
The Palestinian people, (Arabic: الشعب الفلسطيني, ash-sha`b al-filasTīni) also referred to as Palestinians or Palestinian Arabs (Arabic: الفلسطينيون, al-filasTīnīyyūn; Arabic: العرب الفلسطينيون, al-`Arab al-filasTīnīyyūn), are an Arabic-speaking people with family origins in Palestine. The total Palestinian population, including descendants, is estimated at approximately 10 million, roughly half continuing to live in the region of historic Palestine,an area encompassing Israel proper, the West Bank including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip and parts of Jordan. In this combined area, as of 2009, they constitute a majority of 51% of all inhabitants,[10] some of whom are internally displaced persons. The remainder, just over half of all Palestinians, comprise what is known as the Palestinian diaspora, most of whom are stateless refugees lacking citizenship in any country.[11] Of the diaspora, over two and a half million live in neighboring Jordan,[12] one million is shared between Syria and Lebanon, a quarter million in Saudi Arabia, while Chile's half a million is the largest concentration outside the Arab world."
So I guess Israel would have to kill 9,500,000 civilians to be competitive. But Israel is, Czaragorn, a Nazi state, while the beautiful city of Prague is in the saintly nation of Czechoslovakia, which does no wrong.
Yes, Israel never measures up.
COMMENT #122 [Permalink]
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BlueHawk
said on 1/17/2010 @ 1:29 pm PT...
Brad @112
I'll concede most of your points, for the simple purpose of not being caught in minutae.
My opposition to Zionism however is not swayed one bit. Zionism is THE HINDRANCE TO PEACE.
I'm simply interested in Peace and Justice...Israel can have it's homeland, but as long as Israel isn't being Just they will not know Peace.
A homeland filled with violence and a captive repressed population isn't actually a homeland...it's a prison battleground...for Arabs and Jews.
These quotes from Zionists and Israeli government officials tell me israel isn't seeking peace...their seeking to dominate.
* "It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism,colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.
* "The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more".... Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000.
* "When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.
* "How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." Golda Maier, March 8, 1969.
* "There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969.
* "We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours." Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces - Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.
* "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist... There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969.
* "Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them." Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.
COMMENT #123 [Permalink]
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Mitch Trachtenberg
said on 1/17/2010 @ 1:49 pm PT...
Get yer quotes here, fresh quotes from fools, a dollar a dozen. Guaranteed to scandalize, chosen for your approval and argumentation:
http://www.pmw.org.il/tv-hamas.htm
Gee, thanks, Ernest. This is helping a lot.
COMMENT #124 [Permalink]
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Mitch Trachtenberg
said on 1/17/2010 @ 1:56 pm PT...
Special today: NO EXTRA CHARGE for context removal.
COMMENT #125 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 1/17/2010 @ 1:57 pm PT...
Dear Mitch at #116--
First of all to you and everybody--My eyes and my body do not like being on the computer. I keep meaning to stay off but as this is my tribe here and because I'm really into all this stuff, I keep coming back and staying on way longer than I intend to. My eyes hurt a little right now. Sooo... if I disappear now or at some other time it will most likely be because I'm just listening to my body and probably not because I'm not listening/responding to you.
To your question--what would I do?
I think it's impossible to know the answer to that question because it's impossible to really know what that situation would look/feel like without actually being in it. But one can try to imagine and make something up and I can do that for you.
I identify very strongly with the refuseniks in Israel and hope that I would have the courage to do what they do and refuse to serve in the occupied territories. Or maybe to serve at all. There would be no easy solution. Hard to imagine that any of the available choices would feel great because there would always be some factor pulling you in another/opposite direction.
(During the Vietnam War I got conscientious objector status, which was tricky, then decided I didn't want to do alternative service either because I strongly objected to the idea of the goverment telling me how to spend two years of my life.)
Mitch, I can't help feeling that part of our tension(between you and me here in this back and forth)is that though I think we've both read a lot we may be coming from different informational realities which may be powerfully informing our individual biases.
I repeat--my readings describe graphic scenes of mistreatment that I can only think you would find abhorrent. So rather than go back and forth on this claim and counter-claim I'm gonna offer a new direction. One that Czaragron touched on, if that's okay. (If it's not okay, let me know and I'll try to answer your question more fully.)
One of the cogent recurring themes in my readings is that any discussion of Israel/Palestine, if it is to be connected to reality, MUST take place within the context of the longstanding ongoing illegal occupation of Palestinian lands.
In 1967 there were several prominent Israelis(again my apologies for not knowing this material well enough to have the names here) who had the foresight to say basically--okay, this 6 day war was forced upon us, but the 7th day the choices are ours--and urge a path of NOT occupying the newly seized territories. They correctly surmised that doing so would only undermine Israel's moral authority(which at that time was in good standing)and inevitably lead to the full quota of nightmarish activities and usurpations of democracy that illegal occupations invariably entail.
They were not heeded.
From The Other Israel--" The occupied party's resistance to the occupier is its moral right. Its VIOLENT resistance is a direct result of the violence of the occupation itself."
And--"Israeli Jews can't accept the implications of these facts(of the natural responses of an occupied population to occupation). So they frame the struggle with themselves as the victims with no choice ivolved in an heroic struggle of self defense."
Now don't think cuz I put those two quotes in there that the Israeli side is not supported fully in this book. I think it is. The writers are painfully aware of the wants/needs/psychology/fears of their countrymen and women. And with comprehensive awareness of the depths of the wounds driving their dilemma some of them write with desperation calling for outside help. Though there are some on both sides who understand clearly and fairly and see what is going on, the majority on both sides has dug in from years and years of fear and pain and loss and indoctrination.(I'm uncomfortable trying to speak for these Israeli writers. They're so eloquent and know this stuff so much better than I, but that's my rough approximation for you. Gotta scoot.)
love,
Dave
COMMENT #126 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 1/17/2010 @ 2:07 pm PT...
Mitch
I think I'm pretty representative of a whole lot of secular Jews.
We do not trust that the United States will continue to be a "safe haven."
I'm pretty representative of a whole lot of secular Americans and I can say with authority that most of us don't trust the United States will continue to be a safe haven. Get the fuck over it.
The Gaza strip was occupied by Israel, was returned by Israel to Palestinian control as part of the peace with Egypt, and is now run by Hamas, which is pledged to the destruction of Israel.
Hamas was voted in to lead Gaza in a fraud-free, fair election. Israel and the United States refused to recognize this government. Despite repeated assertions by Hamas that Israel's compliance with the U.N. resolutions would end hostilities, Israel continues to lie with this horseshit you wrote and I quoted here.
A hard skim of your comments today, and Brad's, leaves me feeling pretty queasy about your ability to ignore the reality of others' lives. I know this is conditioned into you from childhood, having read Gilad Atzmon on the subject for a long time, and, indeed, it tried to be conditioned into me from childhood, too, but I have had this galling habit of not letting quite a lot of the conditioning condition me for my whole life. I saw all the 1967 business on the news every night as a girl, and couldn't for the life of me see how Israel was the good guy in that mess, but left it for the adults. That was my worst mistake—belief that adults were adult. A stultifyingly huge mass of them are no such thing... like continuing to whine about the persecution of their ancestors for personal gain....
It makes me feel nausea to hear and read Israelis and their supporters here in the United States, even ones who revile our crimes against humanity, being so blithe about those of Israel. It's as though people really think Jews are God's chosen, that they are exempt from ordinary mortal responsibility, that they must be treated as poor dear, sociopathic, children who suffered too much as infants.
Ordinarily, when someone, usually an Israeli, takes this attitude on a thread somewhere, I go postal on them. Postal. No differently than when some American takes that tack on our slaughtering and torturing, even of the guilty, let alone the innocent... but... Brad thinks that as moderator I must refrain from ripping people's heads off and feeding them to the dogs... that my words could in some wise be construed as the official position of this blog.
So. These words are not the official position of this blog. They are my own, and I have to completely stop paying attention to this thread now so that I don't puke.
Brad
Sorry. I know you're busy, but you need to take care of booboos and infractions here, now, at least until my nausea passes.
Everyone:
Some links for any who wish to learn: Gilad Atzmon, Norman Finkelstein, and here is a piece by the beautiful Tony Judt, wherein he states, among other gorgeous things:
For many years, Israel had a special meaning for the Jewish people. After 1948 it took in hundreds of thousands of helpless survivors who had nowhere else to go; without Israel their condition would have been desperate in the extreme. Israel needed Jews, and Jews needed Israel. The circumstances of its birth have thus bound Israel's identity inextricably to the Shoah, the German project to exterminate the Jews of Europe. As a result, all criticism of Israel is drawn ineluctably back to the memory of that project, something that Israel's American apologists are shamefully quick to exploit. To find fault with the Jewish state is to think ill of Jews; even to imagine an alternative configuration in the Middle East is to indulge the moral equivalent of genocide.
[emphasis mine]
Peace.
COMMENT #127 [Permalink]
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BlueHawk
said on 1/17/2010 @ 2:17 pm PT...
Mitch @123-24....
I hope you patted yourself on the back for your clever retorts...you'd be a legend in middle school. The fact that you feel those quotes need context is troubling.
Frankly...Israel-Palestine was really low on my radar until about 8-10 years ago. It was the vile Palestinian rhetoric that caused me to dismiss them. A friend who was very well read in the conflict walked me through it....I was astonished at Israel's atrocities that WEREN'T WELL KNOWN before the internet era. Israel's transgressions and vile rhetoric simply went unreported in American media.
Pre-internet era it was Arab bashing all the time...Israel was portrayed as innocent victims that needs billions in American aid.
What a crock
I ask you Mitch...please demonstrate any context that would make the quotes in comment 122 acceptable or would give a different meaning to what was quoted.
It seems Israel's main objective for over 40 years has been to dominate and drive out Palestinian Arabs regardless of human rights or decency.
I find it telling you dismiss my comment #122 with such juvenality...
COMMENT #128 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 1/17/2010 @ 4:59 pm PT...
(this is mostly to those two rascally wags-- Agent 99 and Bluehawk)
Well...I'm delighted to see that so many of us remembered to take our Lack Of Compassion pills. Excellent. Now if we all can just put on our heavy gloves, we'll climb back into the ring and continue to bludgeon each other to death until the next tidal wave, earthquake, or hurricane signals recess.
COMMENT #129 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 1/17/2010 @ 5:30 pm PT...
Had an image of myself as a supporting cast member of the new hit cyber-reality computer show-
I'm Not Really An Anti-Semite, I Just Sorta Sound Like One Sometimes Over On BradBlog.
COMMENT #130 [Permalink]
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Mitch Trachtenberg
said on 1/17/2010 @ 5:34 pm PT...
This is where I wish you all well, and exit the discussion.
I wish you all well.
COMMENT #131 [Permalink]
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BlueHawk
said on 1/17/2010 @ 5:42 pm PT...
David @129...or a new court show...-Judge Judea
rim shot...exit stage left...
nice discussion folks...
COMMENT #132 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 1/17/2010 @ 7:01 pm PT...
BlueHawk @ 122:
I'll concede most of your points, for the simple purpose of not being caught in minutae.
You should concede them because I was right about them.
My opposition to Zionism however is not swayed one bit. Zionism is THE HINDRANCE TO PEACE.
You are welcome to believe that and/or to make that case as you feel appropriate. My note to you had nothing to do with that. It would be nice if you recognized that (as you conceded I was right on those points I took the time to spell out for you! )
COMMENT #133 [Permalink]
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BlueHawk
said on 1/17/2010 @ 9:06 pm PT...
Actually Brad...
I conceded the points because they were minor to my overall position...
Personally I think America was pretty good to Jewish folks pre-holocaust too...
I wasn't trying to build strawmen as you accused me...I was stating a point of view from my perspective.
In one of your earlier comments you used the MS St.Louis incident as evidence that Jews weren't too welcome in America...
I'm just sayin' Brad...
Sometimes you can be a pissy mutha...geez I concede a point out of courtesy because you said you were really busy...
and then I check back and you're doing a touchdown dance because of it.
COMMENT #134 [Permalink]
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mick
said on 1/18/2010 @ 12:16 am PT...
COMMENT #135 [Permalink]
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mick
said on 1/18/2010 @ 12:23 am PT...
Anthony Lawson/Jeff Gates- A Closer Look at Israel's Role in Terrorism - Parts 1, 2 and 3
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Are we all being played for fools ?
COMMENT #136 [Permalink]
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Caleb
said on 1/18/2010 @ 7:09 am PT...
Without weighing in here on the merits of this debate, I would only point out that the intensity of this discussion shows how grotesquely overemphasized the Israel/Palestine issue is by many people at the expense of their attention to other, far more urgent crises. At this very moment, there is a failure to deliver prompt aid to the people of Haiti that dwarfs even the Katrina fiasco. Though the establishment media is trying to cover the Obama administration's misfeasance as they never did for President Bush's shortcomings at the time of Katrina, the scope of delay and apparent heartlessness by the U.S. and other governments, and by world relief organizations, is absolutely clear. (I would note that the Israelis are apparently the only ones who have a functioning field hospital on the ground in Port-au-Prince.) The Haitian earthquake and its horrendous aftermath, and not the long-simmering Israel-Palestine dispute, is the issue that must be discussed now so that we can help to fulfill our human duty to the people of Haiti.
COMMENT #137 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 1/18/2010 @ 8:17 am PT...
Mick #134: I've stressed elsewhere the importance of accuracy when providing a link.
In this instance the words you used for the link to the Haaretz article, in your words "Defer UN vote or face 'second Gaza'" actually undercut the point you were trying to make.
The article actually says [emphasis added]:
The request by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to the United Nations Human Rights Council last year to postpone the vote on the Goldstone report followed a particularly tense meeting with the head of the Shin Bet security service, Haaretz has learned. At the October meeting in Ramallah, Shin Bet chief Yuval Diskin told Abbas that if he did not ask for a deferral of the vote on the critical report on last year's military operation, Israel would turn the West Bank into a "second Gaza."
Caleb, you are partially correct. There is an Israeli field hospital in Port-au-Prince. There are also Israeli rescue teams with dogs seeking people trapped under the rubble, but there are also U.S. physicians, nurses and Navy corpsmen assisting in this tragic event. All who are doing so, including the Israelis, deserve our recognition and praise.
I don't think we know enough about what other nations have offered to jump to any conclusions. I do know that there are U.N. relief forces there. I recall that when Katrina struck, Cuba offered to send in doctors with back packs, but the Bush administration refused this charitable offer. I don't know whether Cuba has made a similar offer re Haiti or whether, if they did, the U.S., which controls entry into Haiti, would allow it.
COMMENT #138 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 1/18/2010 @ 8:36 am PT...
re: Caleb @ 136 and
Ernest @ 137
Dave Lindorff article about Cuba in Haiti
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/01/15-6
from that article
In fact, left unmentioned is the reality that Cuba already had over 400 doctors posted to Haiti to help with the day-to-day health needs of this poorest nation in the Americas, and that those doctors were the first to respond to the disaster, setting up a hospital right next to the main hospital in Port-au-Prince which collapsed in the earthquake.
COMMENT #139 [Permalink]
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mick
said on 1/18/2010 @ 10:22 am PT...
"Shin Bet chief Yuval Diskin told Abbas that if he did not ask for a deferral of the vote on the critical report on last year's military operation, Israel would turn the West Bank into a "second Gaza.""
This sound like "State sponsored terrorism" to me !
It is "violence or threats of violence used for intimidation or coercion; terrorism." dictionary.com
COMMENT #140 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 1/18/2010 @ 11:30 am PT...
Mick #139. It does indeed, but it is important to distinguish a threat of a second attack on an already demolished Gaza and a threat to turn the entire West Bank into a "Second Gaza."
It's a subtle point, but, given the devastation already wrought upon Gaza, the threat to turn the West Bank into a "Second Gaza" is a more ominous "terrorist threat" than what you erroneously posted.
David Lasagna #138: Thanks for the link. Typical of the corporate media to fail to report on Cuban assistance. If Lindorff's numbers are accurate, it would mean that Cuba has sent more doctors to help in Haiti than the U.S. and Israel combined.
COMMENT #141 [Permalink]
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Caleb
said on 1/18/2010 @ 1:37 pm PT...
Re: David Lasagna #138
There is a report in the New York Times today of Cuban doctors in Port-au-Prince. Despite the wonderful work of the relatively few U.S. health professionals, navy corpsmen, and outstanding charities (such as Doctors Without Borders) actually on the ground in the first few days, there is no doubt that this relief effort was botched badly. Haiti is only 700 miles from the United States, and vital supplies, particularly water, could have been transported there quickly, by massive air drops if necessary. The airport should have been immediately been restricted to rescue supplies and personnel, instead of (as some reports indicate) emphasizing evacuation of Americans). The French government has protested that a French plane sent to establish a field hospital was turned away from the airport. For there to be any hope of recovering people trapped in collapsed buildings, every passing hour is critical. In Haiti, recovery teams did not arrive for days, and it appears that the trapped individuals were cruelly written off as lost.
COMMENT #142 [Permalink]
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Big Dan
said on 1/18/2010 @ 5:42 pm PT...
COMMENT #143 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 1/18/2010 @ 6:20 pm PT...
BlueHawk @ 133 said:
Sometimes you can be a pissy mutha...geez I concede a point out of courtesy because you said you were really busy... and then I check back and you're doing a touchdown dance because of it.
On that last point, I will respectfully, though fully, disagree. On the first, I have no quarrel.
COMMENT #144 [Permalink]
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mick
said on 1/18/2010 @ 10:16 pm PT...
Ernest A. Canning ? too subtle for this mere mortal !
COMMENT #145 [Permalink]
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Mitch Trachtenberg
said on 1/19/2010 @ 6:09 am PT...
My last response to BlueHawk was unfortunate.
Caleb is right that Haiti is more pressing by leaps and bounds.
Still, I'd like to explain that my point, not well-stated, was simply that we appeared to have reached the stage in these arguments where we begin throwing quotes back and forth at one another. It's all very predictable and very pointless, because, as we both know, there is no one "Israeli position" and no one "Palestinian position."
In closing, I think the middle east conflict is summarized very simply: party A gave party B rights to land that belonged to party C. B and C can fight on forever, while party A tut-tuts. Such is the state of human relations in this world.
COMMENT #146 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 1/19/2010 @ 7:45 am PT...
With all due respect, Mitch, your "summary" of the Middle East is both inaccurate and over simplified.
It suggests that the entire conflict arises from the actions of Party A (either the U.S. or the U.N., you don't really specify) and ignores the roles played at the origins and in the midst of the conflict by B (Israelis) and C (Palestinians).
You ignore, for example, the actions of the terrorist organizations, the Haganah and the Irgun and the effect those had in leading to the assistance provided by Party A in not merely taking the land of C and giving it to B, but in expelling to the diaspora many of the land's original inhabitants, whom we now refer to as Palestinian refugees.
It also ignores the expansion of Israel from the land handed over by A to B but to the land A reserved to C; land that became the "occupied territories" as the result of the 6-day war. It ignores the refusal of B to abide the UN Charter and international law by its effort to make that occupation permanent, imposing its will over the inhabitants of the occupied territories, the building of permanent settlements, often after the homes in which C resides are bulldozed.
It ignores the fact that in walling in Gaza and imposing extreme restrictions on the ingress of food, medicine and supplies, B has reduced the status of the residents of Gaza to a state analogous to that of the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto during the early stages of World War II.
But, of course, since A supposedly started this mess by taking land from C and giving it to B, then the citizens of A should keep their mouths shut when they see B and C needlessly killing one another and A continues to fork over billions of dollars in military assistance to B.
By the way, from a strict interpretation of basic property law, your summary undercuts the legitimacy of B. If A has no property right to land held by C, any effort of A to convey the land to B is a nullity.
COMMENT #147 [Permalink]
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BlueHawk
said on 1/19/2010 @ 9:26 am PT...
Brad @143, Mitch @145 and Ernest @146
Brad, I was being semi tongue in cheek...So I'm sure you're not sweating that...
Mitch don't sweat it either...I'll chalk it up to the ultimate emotional nature of the debate...
Ernest...damn good illustration.
COMMENT #148 [Permalink]
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Mitch Trachtenberg
said on 1/19/2010 @ 9:54 am PT...
Ernest,
Get some fresh air and listen, for a change, to someone you don't agree with. You'll find that the world is not black and white, and that the exercise helps you grow new neurons.
I regret having waded in here. Sorry to be the fascist at the tea party, folks. Signing off for good.
COMMENT #149 [Permalink]
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Brian R
said on 1/19/2010 @ 10:59 pm PT...
Mitch said:
If Jews were to be forced out of Israel, is there any place in the world they can go?
Palestine.
COMMENT #150 [Permalink]
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Jeannie Dean
said on 1/20/2010 @ 3:17 pm PT...
So...is it a political third rail? Or a long overdue debate?
COMMENT #151 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 1/20/2010 @ 3:27 pm PT...
Well, Jeannie Dean, that's a question that I felt best answered by those who read the piece --- Sorry, for not spoon feeding you with "my answer," but I'm an attorney schooled in the Socratic method.
I suppose the question will ultimately be answered by the voters in CA-36.
COMMENT #152 [Permalink]
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Jeannie Dean
said on 1/20/2010 @ 4:34 pm PT...
Sorry, Ernest. I was joking.
Perhaps inappropriately.
No spoon feeding necessary, thanx.
COMMENT #153 [Permalink]
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Ancient
said on 1/21/2010 @ 7:43 am PT...