READER COMMENTS ON
"SCIENTIFIC REPORT: Evidence Strongly Suggests 2004 Presidential Election Results --- Not the Exit Polls! --- Were Biased and/or Flawed!"
(88 Responses so far...)
COMMENT #1 [Permalink]
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Potemkin
said on 4/2/2005 @ 3:37 pm PT...
This makes me sooo mad!!! The question I have: how does one investigate something like this? It's like world hunger, it's just too big for the average person.
COMMENT #2 [Permalink]
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Manananana
said on 4/2/2005 @ 4:07 pm PT...
Non-partisan? Hahaha. Give me a break.
COMMENT #3 [Permalink]
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Brad
said on 4/2/2005 @ 4:13 pm PT...
Do you have any information to suggest the opposite Mana? Or are you simply being your usual head-in-the-sand, see-no-evil, democracy-loathing, wingnut self?
COMMENT #4 [Permalink]
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supersoling
said on 4/2/2005 @ 4:19 pm PT...
Manabananafanatic,
Bush voters less likely to answer exit polls? Hahaha! One break, coming up.
COMMENT #5 [Permalink]
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Republicans are Fascists
said on 4/2/2005 @ 4:28 pm PT...
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" This makes me sooo mad!!! The question I have: how does one investigate something like this? "
Potemkin
-----
All the evidence and answers will come pouring out the second Congress allows an investigation. That would give any all members full subpoena power.
One lil problem, Rep. John Conyers put in for this investigation back in January. Republican James Sensenbrenner is the chairman of Judicary Committee and wont allow an investigation to be started.
Eventually election reform issues will discussed but republicans have recently started a disinformation campaign by the use of the fraudulent front group AVCR ( read BradBlog front page) to weigh down and perhaps stamp out the issue.
COMMENT #6 [Permalink]
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Republicans are Fascists
said on 4/2/2005 @ 4:35 pm PT...
Note to all, Don't Feed The Trolls.
They have zero interest in becoming more informed or discussing issues in full detail. As per another thread their key goal is to simply distrupt.
COMMENT #7 [Permalink]
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Sherry
said on 4/2/2005 @ 5:56 pm PT...
Lucky me - to be living in the capitol of corruption within this new fascist nation! I am so ashamed of Ohio after living here all of my life. The Ohio State Government is overrun with Republican Fascists. They are all in it together.
Kenneth Blackwell (SOS) now Running for Governor
Howard Taft -(R) Governor - cannot run again-Term Limits.
James Petri - (R) Attorney General - Running for Governor
Betty Montgomery-(R)Auditor Of State - Running for Governor
All of the area churches are endorsing Blackwell because he says he is religious and was instrumental in getting the anti Gay Marriage bill passed. I have to go throw up now.
These are just a few of the crooks we have here in Ohio. There are many more! One lies, and all the rest swear to it! I have tried to vote them out for years now, but gee ... do you think my vote was counted? Will it be counted in the Gubernatorial race? Forgive my negativism this evening. Hopelessness descends now and then. I should be better by tomorrow.
COMMENT #8 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 4/2/2005 @ 6:03 pm PT...
I recommended this link at the open thread, but I'll post it here as well. The blogger is a Canadian novelist.
Speaking of Canadians, where's Cheryl?
COMMENT #9 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 4/2/2005 @ 6:05 pm PT...
I suppose it's not up to E/M to release the data that are owned by the MSM news consortia. Is there anything we can do to get those data?
COMMENT #10 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 4/2/2005 @ 6:09 pm PT...
Sherry -
We'll all join you over the toilet bowl. It's not just Ohio, it's the whole country, even the whole world. Enablers through silence or acquiescence of fascism and corruption.
COMMENT #11 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 4/2/2005 @ 6:11 pm PT...
Re my #8 -
You have to scroll back UP to read the main blog.
COMMENT #12 [Permalink]
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Sherry
said on 4/2/2005 @ 6:37 pm PT...
Peg C, I read the Canadian link you provided. It was great! I'm a little too old to take up a rifle and march, but I live in a remote area where I could hide revolutionists. He sure told it like it is! Oh well, back to the toilet bowl!
COMMENT #13 [Permalink]
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Republicans are Fascists
said on 4/2/2005 @ 6:52 pm PT...
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"Forgive my negativism this evening. Hopelessness descends now and then. I should be better by tomorrow."
Sherry
----
Nothing to forgive Sherry. When people are up against what they perceive is a mammoth wall it's a normal reaction to go inside and feel down. Turn the negativity/down feeling into a positive. Get the message out. Let everyone know what's going on. Most people are so so busy juggling everyday life ( and this is really the way this administration wants it) that they don't have time or are to damn tired to dig deep enough to know the fulll story. This didn't happen over night and we wont be able to fix it over night.
Remember the Democratic party has been the majority party going back to the 30's. This has never changed. Election fraud from the 2000 presidential election till today has only allowed the tag team effort of this administration and much of corporate America to push forward a propaganda campaign that equals or possibly exceedes that of fascist Germany and communist Russia.
Also, remember that many many people feel as you do but are too afraid to speak or feel their voice will never be heard. Open discussion of the facts is the very thing this administration fears the most.
COMMENT #14 [Permalink]
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Shadowtwinchaos
said on 4/2/2005 @ 7:08 pm PT...
Erk, I guess that was a bit off topic too. I'm horrible about that. I read things and then just go off on whatever topic comes to mind. My apologies. Peace
COMMENT #15 [Permalink]
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Shadowtwinchaos
said on 4/2/2005 @ 7:11 pm PT...
Eegads, now I really do think I'm going nuts. My first post isn't there at all, so my second comment makes no sense at all. Well, my first comment (which didn't appear) was an off topic rant anyway. So, let's leave it at I'm an idiot and forget I was ever here.
COMMENT #16 [Permalink]
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Sherry
said on 4/2/2005 @ 7:47 pm PT...
Republicans are Fascists #13 - Thank you for your uplifting comments! I am not shy about telling it like it is, except I need to work on not coming across as angry. I am angry! But, I need to relate the facts in a more civilized manner. My family is a lost cause. They are all diehard Republicans and convinced that Bush is the voice of God. *sigh* I did tell my mom the other day that Bush was the anti-christ. She didn't take it well.
I like what you said about "open discussion" of the facts. When I was young, with children, and working 8 hours a day, I didn't think about politics much. I was just trying to survive and trusting in the powers that be - the government. So, you are right about letting them know what is going on. I am going to print out bits of wisdom and hang them at my little country general store. They keep a huge billboard on the outside of the building, and anyone is free to post. Of course, I will sneak them in busier places too, such as doctor's offices, etc.
Shadowtwinchaos # 14 & 15 - Thanks so much for the laugh! I really needed that! I couldn't get my breath I was laughing so hard! Feel free to post invisible off-topic rants any time you feel like it. We will definitely accept your apologies for doing so, but we will never think you are an idiot or forget you were here. Hee Hee
COMMENT #17 [Permalink]
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Shadowtwinchaos
said on 4/2/2005 @ 9:09 pm PT...
Sherry, :blush: Well, mission accomplished. I was actually reacting to one of your posts - #7 lol. I was just saying that I know how it must all seem over whelming. But we shall overcome this all. And then the rant started. But I shall spare you the rant and just say that it all works out in the end. I have to believe that. So, chin up and peace - glad for your smile. Oh, and thanks for saying I'm not an idiot.
COMMENT #18 [Permalink]
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cheryl
said on 4/2/2005 @ 10:33 pm PT...
Hey Peg!
I'm here! But I'll just be popping in and out until after May 17th because we have an election coming up in BC and I'm organising my riding. Won't be much time for blogging, I'm afraid. But carry on everyone! You're doing a fine job. Just a word of advice though.....I wouldn't bother responding to Mana whoever; it's just a waste of valuable time. TTFN! Love you all.
COMMENT #19 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 4/3/2005 @ 1:50 am PT...
I agree completely about these morons who post taunting messages. They aren't worth anyone's time on this blog. We have more important work to do. Let them be like the tree in the forest that collapses when nobody else is around...it makes the same noise, but who cares?
I sent Joe Scarborough at MSNBC an e-mail when I first saw this report. He's a former G.O.P. congressman from Florida (to give him credit, he did fulfill a term-limits pledge) who apparently had a suspicious death in his own office at one point. Not knowing the details, I didn't go there with him, but I did chide him for his on-air sarcasm about the exit poll/tabulated vote differentials.
When Steven Freeman's finding were first released shortly after the election, and Keith Olbermann was discussing it, Scarborough shouted, "My God, this is serious!" He then tried to debunk Freeman, whose work he isn't nearly bright enough to understand, by talking about all the new voters in Florida since 2004. His tone was one of complete contempt for a University of Pennsylvnia professor with an intellect several times larger than his own.
The point is, partisan Republicans don't want the American people to know the truth. They don't want them exposed to analyses of the election in the papers or on TV. They want them to just show up at their evangelical churches and hear Bush described as Christ's designated representative on Earth. That's why it's imperative that we don't allow ourselves to be distracted by dumbbells like MANANANANA or whatever he calls himself.
Spread the news. The election was stolen. Show people the evidence. One chance in a million that the exit polls and tabulated vote could be 5-1/2 points apart. The laws of mathematics aren't subject to political influences. Archimedes and Pythagoras weren't Democrats or Republicans. Never mind the evangelicals and the idiots...just tell every reasonable thinking person you know, and we'll win this fight. And pretty soon, too.
COMMENT #20 [Permalink]
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Ron Brynaert
said on 4/3/2005 @ 5:57 am PT...
The quotes by LoParo are abhorrent. These people used to say "no comment" now they say whatever they want without a care in the world.
Hopefully, this will prove that since they have no desire to even refute...there definitely is something that they're trying to hide. Way more than a single something, too.
COMMENT #21 [Permalink]
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STOP_George
said on 4/3/2005 @ 10:31 am PT...
Hey guys!
In case your interested in reading more than 300 very interesting posts about this story --- check out my diary at Daily Kos. It was on the recommended list for the last couple of days.
One thing which is often forgotten on this issue is that, as the experts sort through the data, it is evident that Mitofsky et al. (the coordinators of the U.S. exit polling) have been unusually sloppy with their own analyses. So much so that it looks more and more like a massive whitewash each day (and Mitofsky is supposed to be a liberal --- so is the MSM media who refuse to disclose the raw numbers, incidentally).
Even Mitofsky's comments are unusually "stupid" --- being that he is considered "the father of exit polling". Here is a comment Mitofsky made after being asked about the initial US Vote Counts report (this one is a follow-up to the one in January).
"The Edison/Mitofsky report was not investigating election fraud. We were looking at how to guarantee the accuracy of exit poll data. "
How the hell can you guarantee the accuracy of the exit poll data when you don't even consider that there was counting error???!!!
I repeat THIS IS THE FATHER OF EXIT-POLLING!
Or, at least, these are the words of someone else put in the mouth of the father of exit polling.
COMMENT #22 [Permalink]
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lewis
said on 4/3/2005 @ 10:55 am PT...
Look, we can all sit around wringing our hands, or we can decide to do something about it. The people who live in Ohio and are disgusted by Blackwell et al., here's my advice to you: INFILTRATE. Make them think that you're one of them. Go to work in their offices, either as paid employees or as volunteers, then start sifting through their files, hacking their computers. THAT IS THE ONLY WAY WE'RE GOING TO GET THE PROOF THAT WE NEED.
The reason they're getting away with this shit is because they've surrounded themselves with a bunch of like-minded crooks who think that the ends justify the means --- that stealing elections is just fine as long as you're in party "in the right."
We've got to get close to these people, fool them into believing that we agree with them on everything and that we'll do everything in our power to protect them. It's simple. When they ask us our party affiliation, we just have to say, "I voted for the winning team of course." This will be true, since we did vote for the winners; but they put the losers in office.
People who live in Washington, DC, same thing. Get into the White House, Penatagon, infilitrate, then start digging. Go there in whatever capacity you can, as clerks, secretaries, trash collectors. Don't worry about the pay. It will just be a temporary gig.
This is a call to arms. Whatever you're currently doing cannot possibly be as important as saving your country from facism.
We also need to infiltrate the voting machine companies (Diebold et al.) And we need hackers! We need people who can get into other people's computers without them knowing it and see what they're up to.
What are we waiting for? Facism is here to stay unless we do something now. Is this the kind of country you want to raise your children in?????
COMMENT #23 [Permalink]
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supersoling
said on 4/3/2005 @ 11:00 am PT...
Stop_George #22
Thanks for that diary. I read through it last night. It's good to know there is still a passionate and dedicated minority at Dkos in spite of all the grief they catch from some of the front pagers (ostrichs). Commenter Febble in particular found it necesarry to post his own diary in an almost parody form, discounting the evidence, and that's what it is, evidence. I won't even get into Plutonium Page, and his/her comments.
Mitofsky's assertion that the polls were off because Bush voters were reluctant to talk to pollsters is flat out absurd, without even talking about how the polls for the Senate races were largely correct, and that the vote count differed farther outside the margin of error where computer tabulation was used, if I have that correct.
Keep up the good work friend. It's much needed, and much appreciated.
Peace
COMMENT #24 [Permalink]
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Bejammin075
said on 4/3/2005 @ 11:12 am PT...
I will reiterate what others have said about the "trolls": it's a waste of time and energy to respond to them. they are either totally brainwashed, or part of the disinformation. I've seen some of the responses to "trolls" get to lengths that would almost make a phd thesis. don't waste your time! don't get drawn into a clinton-blow job debate, etc.
COMMENT #25 [Permalink]
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supersoling
said on 4/3/2005 @ 11:39 am PT...
Lewis #23
We ain't gettin in the White House or the Pentagon. Years ago my wife was a receptionist for a Washington area defense contractor when we lived in Maryland, and she decided it was time to move up, get a raise, etc. There was only one small (HUGE!) problem. In order to move up, she had to get security clearance. I got calls from friends in Florida, and New York, where we had lived, asking about the phone calls they were getting asking questions about my wife and I, and one of my ex-bosses even got a visit from some guy in a suit. All of this just for a receptionist job.(nothing against receptionists) Well the report on her was about half an inch thick and they even found out she got busted smoking reefer in high school. Dang! I don't know about you, but they ain't letting me in the front door, let alone near any kind of well protected documents :O)
I think the key is breaking the RWCM blockade on all the obvious evidence that's out there. Just look at all the Clint Curtis/Tom Feeney information that Brad's been working his ass off on. I mean there's a guy who has signed an affidavit and given testimony in front of a Congressional inquiry, and yet you never see or hear anything about it from the media. What gives? We can gather all the evidence in the world, but unless we can get it out to the masses, it's useless.
I don't mean for this to sound like a knock on your idea. It's free thinkers like you that are gonna find the answer.
Peace
COMMENT #26 [Permalink]
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supersoling
said on 4/3/2005 @ 11:44 am PT...
O.K.
Per all the "don't feed the trolls" comments, I now feel compelled to apologize for leaving a small snack for Manabananafanatic.
There..........done. (:>)
COMMENT #27 [Permalink]
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lewis
said on 4/3/2005 @ 12:00 pm PT...
I understand your concerns, Supersoling. But not every bleeding-heart liberal out there has smoked dope. Some (including myself) have lived squeaky clean lives (for better or for worse) and could sail through any security clearance.
COMMENT #28 [Permalink]
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lewis
said on 4/3/2005 @ 12:09 pm PT...
If hacking is illegal, by the way, than there's no need to hack. These people are too stupid to wipe their behind's clean, let alone not leave a paper trial of their crimes. Just casually take a look at their desks when you're bring them their morning coffee.
COMMENT #29 [Permalink]
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Bob Bilse
said on 4/3/2005 @ 12:20 pm PT...
A new study, but not news, just more corroboration.
No less than Dick Morris has stated that exit polls are historically accurate and very dependable (of course, he backpedaled when he saw what really took place). The exit polls were, and will remain, dependable.
Also dependable: Diebold, etc., machines - you can depend on these to be continued to be used to hack our votes and turn our elections. These are monumentally dangerous times in this country, and the threat from within is equal to the threat from without.
Also dependable: vast disenfranchisement of minority and liberal college students. This is even worse than the vote-hacking, in my eyes.
Focus on the Mananaramas of this country is wasted effort, a useless distraction. There are much larger fish to fry. They're not worthy of arguing with.
The Corporatists are persistently using their money and influence (which is growing) to gain power at the expense of everyone here on this page, including those who blindly argue for their ability to succeed.
The Beelzebush Conspiracy is about the rich getting richer, and the poor getting poorer. The other issues they've made their own (right-to-life, religious and gender intolerance, taxes, etc.) are secondary to this fact, primarily to gain support. And it works to a far greater degree than it should.
Not enough people are fooled by neocons to garner the votes to get them into office, but they've worked that problem out, too - hence the discrepancy with exit polls. You watch, they'll spend the next four years discrediting a very credible form of predicting the outcome, to either eradicate exit polling, or discredit it further. Predictable as rain.
"Rome" is burning, while all the good little "Neros" are fiddling with their TV dials, swallowing neocon propaganda whole. It's outrageous.
COMMENT #30 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 4/3/2005 @ 12:30 pm PT...
Remember that E/M's client is the MSM. E/M did the only thing they could, and at that it had to have been requested and edited by the MSM as the client. The client holds the last pencil.
It is then OUR job to get the rest of the data from the MSM. E/M does not own that data and they are bound by whatever is in their contract - whether they like it or not.
COMMENT #31 [Permalink]
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Shadowtwinchaos
said on 4/3/2005 @ 12:34 pm PT...
First, I want to apologize for feeding the trolls. I guess I just can't resist sometimes point out their most blatent ignorant comments - such as the debate going on in the other thread about polls. I will make an attempt to control my feedings.
Lewis - let me say that I agree with you on the level that we have to do something to get the information that we need. I agree that this is a serious time and we need serious people to help solve the problems. While I'm not sure if I agree with all of your ideas - I see what you are saying. Clearance isn't easy to obtain. I gained security clearance to enter the White House 4 times during the Clinton era - I doubt with my activists actions I could gain entry now. But there are other solutions. We need people to motivate and take a stand.
My belief in the American system is deep. Not where it is now, but the ideas our country were founded on. I believe in the American's Creed:
The American's Creed
by William Tyler Page
"I believe in the United States of America as a government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed, a democracy in a republic, a sovereign Nation of many sovereign States; a perfect union, one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice, and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes.
"I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it, to support its Constitution, to obey its laws to respect its flag, and to defend it against all enemies."
–Written 1917, accepted by the United States House of Representatives on April 3, 1918.
Brilliant words. I just wish our government believed them as well as believed in the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. We just need to take back our government from the politcians and give the power back to the people. But how we do that is not as clear.
COMMENT #32 [Permalink]
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Teresa
said on 4/3/2005 @ 2:36 pm PT...
I always learn great lessons from mythology. In Roman mythology, Mars was an uncivilized, bloodthirsty brute, who was always excluded from the gods' banquets. This enraged him further, and he brought constant revenge upon them.
If we acknowlede everyone and include them in the human family, I think we will be better off. They should be dealt with according to their actions, but you can't ignore people. This usually makes things worse.
I think the Bradblog is very advanced in this way. I see more acceptance of this hard fact than most places. It is the way of the future as the divisions in this society are going to be very problematic. We don't want violence, but we have to deal with people who think and feel differently.
Trolls in actuality are mischievous creatures. You don't have to be friends with anyone, but they do exist, and won't likely disappear. They will always come around in some form.
I of little fear am coming to my senses. This voting problem might work itself out. So much attention has been paid to the latest crime, that it might become difficult for them to continue to get away with it. In fact, all of their sewage is backing up. Time will tell.
COMMENT #33 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 4/3/2005 @ 6:53 pm PT...
Time. That's what we don't have any of. I hate to say it, Teresa, but I think you're too sanguine. One ostrich to another in the middle of an elephant herd. "Elephants? I don't see any elephants! But the sand is making an awful lot of noise today, don't you think?"
COMMENT #34 [Permalink]
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walkshills
said on 4/3/2005 @ 7:28 pm PT...
If the point of blockage is James Sensenbrenner then some group needs to go after him. Every scrap of information available, along with calls of 'obstruction of justice.'
Everything is chilled until the House Judiciary Committee is capable of action. It is the point of control and thus the proper point of attack.
At the very least, Demo senators and reps should be stating this last study publically at every opportunity.
COMMENT #35 [Permalink]
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Teresa
said on 4/3/2005 @ 8:04 pm PT...
Oh, Peg, I am far too sanguine. Good way of putting it. It is my nature. In fact, I have consciously tried to be more pessimistic, and I can't seem to accomplish that. I've been through horrors in my life, but I have survived it all in good shape. So I believe I will endure quite well what is ahead. I have great faith in life, so I really don't argue with the way it unfolds. I think it happens correctly, and that there is some grand orchestration that I trust. I try to do my best, to learn from my experience, and to extract some joy out of life no matter what happens. There is only so much I can control. And I believe in the law of equal and opposite. I feel our country is buying some good time.
We surely do have time as long as we are alive. It is such a strange concept. It is all individual perception. I am not young and yet I am not in a hurry. I've got plenty of time. I never perceive an impending doom that makes me scurry about madly. In fact, the more I take my time, the more I seem to be able to handle the difficulty.
The ax always falls, but every time I get through it, I celebrate.
COMMENT #36 [Permalink]
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Shadowtwinchaos
said on 4/3/2005 @ 10:38 pm PT...
Here's a surprise - I agree with you both Peg and Teresa- I'm so agreeable. LOL I am a Gemini and so both sides of me agree. Part of me is saying that these horrors need to be dealt with and we all need to take action now. However - I also agree with Teresa on my calmer days where I believe that everything is going to be in balance. Karmic justice will prevail and that you reap what you sow in this world or the next. So, with the pendulum in constant swing we will be back in center and then again to the left or right over time. But being me, I go back and forth between those two points of view. It's funny to hear me say that Karmic Justice will prevail when another part of me wants justice now. Sigh, you are both right.
COMMENT #37 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 4/3/2005 @ 10:51 pm PT...
Teresa -
You are indeed fortunate. I too have been through multiple "horrors;" but those horrors have never been mitigated, only compounded. I greatly fear that similar horror is about to be visited en masse on the American people, in the form and figure of an absolutist fascistic dictatorship that admits of no individual personhood. That admits NO democratic dissent.
We are on the verge. I am not a natural pessimist, but I have become acrophobic in my old age. I'm afraid that a misstep will topple us over the edge; and I quiver at the prospect.
COMMENT #38 [Permalink]
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herbonzness
said on 4/3/2005 @ 10:58 pm PT...
Could we be getting off track a little?
Hasn't there got to be a way to throw some of these jerks in jail? Has anyone talked to a lawyer?
Perhaps Ohioans with a civil suit?
With all the info compiled so far, it seems a slam dunk.
I'm one of those people with a job and little time to devote to finding out what's going on.
I've completely given up on regular media, but check this site amongst others at least once a week, so I may not be able to see replies.
Gotta go to bed.
COMMENT #39 [Permalink]
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Teresa
said on 4/3/2005 @ 11:14 pm PT...
I don't think so, Peg. At least we are far from that kind of dictatorship right now. My family members were incarcerated in the camps in WW II, and their descriptions of life in a dictatorship are vastly different from what we have.
I think there is a fundamental character to every country. I don't think that ours could support a totalitarian regime.
Our society has become too lazy and affluent and needs a great adjustment. It will come. And it will be painful. It already is. But I still think we have miles and miles to go before a dictatorship could take hold.
One very important thing that just happened is that the judicial system of our land slapped the President hard last week. This could never happen if a dictatorship were emerging.
I can be ostrich-like, and I have been wrong lately more than I usually am. We have been a fascist state for a long time. That does not always equate with totalitarianism. People often do fine in fascist regimes.
Another telling thing is, Ward churchill is still teaching. He would have been gone. And every night the administration is severely ridiculed on TV.
If a dictatorship comes, I will adjust. But I am not in a panic yet.
Shadow, Gemini is my favorite sign. They always amuse me and are my favorite playmates. And they are up on everything.
COMMENT #40 [Permalink]
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Teresa
said on 4/3/2005 @ 11:17 pm PT...
COMMENT #41 [Permalink]
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Shadowtwinchaos
said on 4/3/2005 @ 11:40 pm PT...
Us Geminis are great at being involved - just don't put us in charge. We are great at multi-tasking - just don't ask us to finish anything. LOL, well - maybe I shouldn't speak for all Geminis. It is one of our worst traits though.
As in most cases - I see all sides of the matters at hand but have a hard time sticking to one decision on action. I know we have it good in this country, much better than many others. And in a lot of ways we have it way better than our families that came over from everywhere they immigrated from. It's a great nation. I honestly believe that. I just think that we have gotten off track and need to be steered back in the right direction. It's just necessary to get the right people in the driver's seat.
COMMENT #42 [Permalink]
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Shadowtwinchaos
said on 4/4/2005 @ 5:55 am PT...
Hope #44 - we all cling to hope. Hope is what keeps everyone going. I have hope - hope that there is a solution to all this. That we can bring our boys and girls home, hope that there will be an end to this "war". Hope that we can find a way to get back the government from the politicians. But hope only gets us part of the way. We also need action. If it is true what you say and the dam is getting too heavy then I also have hope that the innocent will not be crushed in the flood that follows.
COMMENT #43 [Permalink]
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Peggy
said on 4/4/2005 @ 8:14 am PT...
Lewis #23 - good idea, infiltrate as much as you can, volunteer
Walkshills #34 - the Judiciary Committee is presently looking into voting fraud, and you can see the intention is to ensure that no fraud is found and the Repubs. can continue with their actions to stay in power thru election machine robbery. Sometimes, evil-doers can be brought down by going where they aren't looking, and therefore are not prepared. One small action can cause an avalance they can't save themselves from.
The pilgrims sailed away from Europe to the New World, the Americas. Would all progressives consider actually moving to certain states, to make certain they are in the majority? They could take their intelligence and their assets. Instead of being spread out all over the country, they could converge into specific states. These states could then oppose any corrupt federal government, and refuse to enact the fed's policies. Maybe it's time for the United States to Dis-Unite and separate from the Bad Guys. I would...
COMMENT #44 [Permalink]
...
molly
said on 4/4/2005 @ 8:43 am PT...
#44..Love Wayne Madsen..The american people have been waiting for some time now for some one to save us. Remember "I will see that every vote is counted Kerry".."We'll have cameras all over Florida." Michael Moore...What are these people told? I saw you masturbate when you were in the eighth grade. "Tell what you know and your mother will die." There are a lot of people with a lot to say who are eerily silent. While we wait for one to come who will blow the lid off the fascist takeover...don't pay taxes' no taxation without representation. Let's give Jeff Gannon respect, just in case he is Johnny Goshe. Let's respect everybody and take back our country.
COMMENT #45 [Permalink]
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Republicans are Fascists
said on 4/4/2005 @ 11:32 am PT...
I think many if not most immediately associate fascism and Nazism as one in the same. Hitler's ideology ("version" of fascism) was deeply based on rascism. Much more so than most other fascists regimes. It would be much easier for people who easily write off America becoming a fascist nation if they were given actual information of past fascist regimes or examples of it's true meaning.
You can read more on each here,
Nazism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism
Fascism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
Also, here is a worth while read comparing the rise of fascism in 1930's Germany and todays America.
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0222-22.htm
COMMENT #46 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 4/4/2005 @ 12:27 pm PT...
Sensenbrenner happens to be from Wisconsin, which is one of the few states where there was evidence of fraud on the Democratic side in the 2004 election. It was the only one of the eleven battleground states where the exit polls tracked closely with the tablulated vote. Republicans there have been claiming that the state was stolen for Kerry.
I think this is important. Sensenbrenner probably sees fraud as a two-way street (as do many in Congress, including my own representative, Chris Shays). If so, he'd be reluctant to focus on Ohio only, knowing he'd anger his fellow Republicans and those in his home state in particular.
If we deluge Sensenbrenner with e-mails and letters (a good idea), I think our approach should be very non-partisan and should address all fraud. A widespread investigation of every battleground state might show some interesting results...Bush really won Wisconsin, but Kerry really won Ohio, Florida, New Mexico, and Nevada.
That's the way I think it really happened, in fact.
COMMENT #47 [Permalink]
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Teresa
said on 4/4/2005 @ 12:31 pm PT...
Absolutely, my lovable, ditzy, easily sidetracked Gemini....The right people in the driver's seat. and that means, GETTING OUR VOTE COUNTED!
We are 'blue' in the face from agonizing over these criminals, and all of this uncovering of their deeds seems to be getting nowhere.
The polls are telling the truth, the media knows the truth, and deep down the people of this country know they were cheated.
We are on the verge of taking back the House of Representatives if we can have a relatively clean election. We've got to figure this out.
If an investigation cannot be launched, nor reform effected, then we have to come up with a massive grass roots effort with all the strength we can muster to demand a nonpartisan counting.
It's absolutely fucking ridiculous to hand our votes over to rightwing extremists for tabulation.
My God in Heaven!
COMMENT #48 [Permalink]
...
Hope Is On The Way
said on 4/4/2005 @ 12:37 pm PT...
:angry:
It's a bad time for everyone, but I'm here to just say that hope is on the way.
There is someone on the inside already, someone who is close to these nutjobs. There's alot of things going on here and lots of wheels in motion.
If you ever glance through yahoo, you might catch some strange events going on here. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/showdownroom/
Its crawling with pro-fascist spies and there is some real nasty things they say, using religious sermons and de-nouncing other people.
They are always on the attack and pushing forward violence and other vicious disgusting virtues.
But there is someone who will appear, that will expose the liars. He may never reveal his real name or anything, but the information will come out.
Call it an act of faith. Wayne Madsen is not going to do the job though. He got beseiged by evil fascists, and is now attacking people who are too close to the truth.
It will come out though, the truth about the cult who started the fourth reich and took over the USA will come out. The dam is getting very heavy, and there is thousands of people after this guy now who will expose the bad guys.
Matthew Bridges
COMMENT #49 [Permalink]
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Teresa
said on 4/4/2005 @ 2:14 pm PT...
Absolutely right, RAF #48... fascist regimes come in many shapes, sizes, and forms. Everyone should bone up, so they no what they are talking about when they use these terms.
This regime in the USA is not interested in racism and genocide, believe it or not, as Hitler was.
They are interested in establishing corporate states unobstructed by taxation and law. A utopian corporate empire.
COMMENT #50 [Permalink]
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Shadowtwinchaos
said on 4/4/2005 @ 3:33 pm PT...
Absolutely - a nation formed of Bush's people as he was quoted saying "The Haves and the Have Mores."
They have to have a bottom layer of people to oppress, they couldn't raise themselves up on their own. They have to step on the little people to get there. I hope they are enjoying the view because I can believe that their stay there will soon be over.
COMMENT #51 [Permalink]
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Mark Lloyd Baker
said on 4/4/2005 @ 5:28 pm PT...
Teresa #49 - Right on, though as a subgroup, the Zionist Neocons do have an ideological agenda that reaches beyond that of their corporatist comrades, and does contain religious and racist elements.
And while our leaders' only real concern is with the corporate state, that doesn't preclude them and their henchmen from fomenting hatred and racism as a means of controlling the populace. Get everyone scared enough about Arab terrorists and they'll pretty much go along with anything, like wars of aggression, torture, environmental destruction and the removal of civil liberties.
The 21st century American version of fascism is also perhaps not as overtly sexist as most other incarnations. Women do vote in the U.S. and even fascists have to be somewhat pragmatic.
The corporatist's utopia is everyone else's dystopia.
COMMENT #52 [Permalink]
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Other_Name
said on 4/4/2005 @ 11:43 pm PT...
"The corporatist's utopia is everyone else's dystopia."
It truly is, isn't it. Or is it worse then that.
You can never tell today, when religion has become the occupying exscuse for the entire government.
But it doesn't take a scientist to realize what's next. Zimbabwe and the other governments are being toppled by fraud also, using the same fascist cult who sponsored this fourth reich.
If they plan to destroy Syria for instance, after all the reports seen now they might just have the power to do it installing their own regime.
But, all hope is not lost. Whoever comes forward will have to do it soon.
Gordon
COMMENT #53 [Permalink]
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TEkNiNE187
said on 4/5/2005 @ 1:59 am PT...
Heres a link to the actuall software the voting machines use. with instructions on how to see how easy it is to "hack" results of a ballot file
DIEBOLD'S VOTE-TALLY SOFTWARE- Security Review - Software & Instructions
http://www.equalccw.com/...tnotes.html#gemsinstalls
so really after seeing all that ^^^ its not that surprising or hard to belive that it was all rigged.....
its a shame..........
COMMENT #54 [Permalink]
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Shadowtwinchaos
said on 4/5/2005 @ 8:50 am PT...
Teknine - Thanks for that, that was very interesting. Not surprising though. I mean, computers are at the mercy of humans and they are also only as good as the men who make them. Men are not perfect, so no system can be perfect. Howerver - I don't think the answer is to create hack-proof software (there is no such thing) but to have full disclosure of the votes. A vote count by a bi-partisan committee - something that allows for a balance of both sides so that it truly is fair and open. We can no longer afford to believe that our voting system as it is is fair. There was a discussion earlier of having machines that print out your vote. That's an interesting idea, but what good will it do you? It would only assure you that your vote was entered correctly - not that it will be counted correctly. However, I guess in an extreme situation - if a district thought that it's votes were mis-counted everyone could bring in their paper votes and have them counted physically. Again, would it be practical? I don't know. I really wonder if there is a way that votes could be counted correctly, honestly and openly in a society this large. I'm sure when the founding fathers started this deal, there were far fewer votes to be counted and it was much easier - so they are not much help. I'd be interested in hearing any ideas on how a fair vote could be taken in a large society. I think the world over could use a voting overhaul.
COMMENT #55 [Permalink]
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Republicans are Fascists
said on 4/5/2005 @ 12:54 pm PT...
Are neocons/fascists working behind the scenes on the appointment of the next Pope?
I watched in amazement in those days of the Terry Schiavo affair how Evangelists spoke so fondly of Catholics ( given years of these two groups at one anothers throats). After the death of Pope John Paul II Billy Graham effectionately referred to JPII as an Evangelist.
http://newsmax.com/archi...ic/2005/4/2/185720.shtml
Well there may have been a more sinister reason to all the warm fuzzy talk. According to this article ( and I take most things said by Wayne Madson with a grain of salt) the neocons are actively pushing for their choice of a new Pope.
"Archbishop of Vienna, Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn has echoed the Christian Zionist line of George W. Bush, Tom DeLay, Newt Gingrich, and neocon Catholic and New American centurion Michael Novak."
History repeating itself once again ( Pope Pius XII/Hitler)? Like I said, I would take anything mentioned by Wayne Madson with a grain of salt but it's always important to keep up with information dealing with these deranged bastards squatting in our white house.
Read more here,
http://www.onlinejournal...Madsen/040505madsen.html
COMMENT #56 [Permalink]
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nikto
said on 4/5/2005 @ 7:48 pm PT...
If Bush did not win by Vote Fraud in 2004, then there's no shit in the sewers, 2+2=13, it don't rain in Indianappolis in the summertime, and Megadeth is a folk group.
This is issue#1, folks.
Think about it.
Speeches, policies, votes, opinions, philosophy, analysis, and HOPE are all worthless if 1 party
(read:GOP) can just steal any election they wish.
And they can.
And they do.
I'd like to think the scandal of the 2004 election is just too big to do anything else but keep coming back until it devours the Bush, the Neocons and the GOP.
But it probably will just fade away for good unless people STAY MAD ABOUT IT, KEEP POSTING ABOUT IT, KEEP TALKING ABOUT IT, AND KEEP WRITING LETTERS TO POLITICAL FIGURES
ABOUT IT.
Until Vote Fraud is eliminated, WE WILL HAVE GOP RADICAL EXTREMISTS IN POWER
WITHOUT LETUP!!!!!!!
COMMENT #57 [Permalink]
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Paul Tenner
said on 4/5/2005 @ 8:02 pm PT...
I am so glad to see t all my arguing with friends of mine who are "repubs", did not go to waste!!! I copied this, sent it to them and,"OH", how bad they feel, but @ the same time they are now coming to the realization that bubba/dubya was "GIVEN" the election, "TWICE"!!! Now, I must continue to show them the evidence, "PROVING", bush-league and his co-conspirators were responsible for 9/11!!! Wish me luck and thank you folk's for your tireless effort to bring forth the truth!!!
PT of SD, "ME" I AM the 10'ER CONN-X-TION!!!
COMMENT #58 [Permalink]
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Matt Clinton Kratoville
said on 4/5/2005 @ 10:20 pm PT...
C'mon folks, Ohio is a red state through and through! There is no proof! There is no evidence! Show me that Ohio is a blue state that voted for Kerry! Senator John Kerry won Ohio! Yeah, and I'm Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs!!!
Show me!!! Prove it! Prove that Senator John Kerry won the state of Ohio! You can't do it! You can't prove it!
If and when you can actually prove that Kerry won Ohio is when GWB will have to see a therapist!
Otherwise give it up folks! Ohio is a red state!
COMMENT #59 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 4/6/2005 @ 2:23 am PT...
According to the most recent poll, George W. Bush stands at 45% approval. By a margin of 11%, this is the lowest standing of any president since World War II at this stage of a second term...compared to Truman, Eisenhower, Johnson, Nixon, Reagan, and Clinton. This, despite a supposedly successful election in Iraq and a stock market rally.
Bush's 45% standing is 11% below the next-lowest president, but only 3% points below his standing in the exit polls on Nov. 2. Bush was at 48% at the end of the day, but when the votes were counted he suddenly went to over 50%! And when someone pointed out the discrepancy, the answer was "The exit polls were wrong."
The exit polls were right, folks. Kerry won the election, and it wasn't even that close. Bush's current standing of 45% in the polls isn't really all that different from his standing in November. Unless, of course, the current polls are wrong...but you never hear anyone say that public opinion polls could be wrong, do you?
COMMENT #60 [Permalink]
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Ian Herold
said on 4/6/2005 @ 10:30 am PT...
"Proof". What is it? They didn't "prove" Scott Peterson killed his wife and baby. They didn't "prove" O.J. Simpson killed his wife and her friend. Anyone with half-a-brain can look at the evidence and figure out what the actual truth is, however.
We know the truth behind the Diebold optic scanner/electronic vote hacking. The truth is obvious. You want to believe that the exit polls were skewed, for the first time in their history, in record numbers, against the winning candidate, only where these hack-able machines were in place? You want to believe that Mitofsky-and-company, whose career is based on those exit polls being objective and accurate, would jepordize his reputation and future to make it look like Kerry won, when there was a chance that a final tally would prove him so wrong? Go ahead, believe it. That is the behavior of a denialist. It simply means the candidate you support gained his office by the fraud, and you don't care about the truth, or any proof that is there. It also means you don't have any more integrity than they do.
There is a concerted effort in place by the powers-that-be to keep us from fully establishing the "proof" (and they are GOOD at it!) - that doesn't make it untrue, just as it doesn't make Scott Peterson and O.J. Simpson innocent. You're being "Johnny Cocharan"-ed!
Those of us with our heads "out of the sand" will never let this dog sleep! Never. Dis-prove that!
COMMENT #61 [Permalink]
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Republicans are Fascists
said on 4/6/2005 @ 12:04 pm PT...
#58, you want proof? Start here and read John Conyers 100 page report listing endless violations of federal election laws and blatant manipulation by Triad voting systems during the recount procedure.
http://www.house.gov/jud...s/ohiostatusrept1505.pdf
I don't care if a person is a republican, democrat, independent etc.. the voting process is the backbone of our democracy. Hell, we have lost over 1500 soliders ( Washingtons official count anyway) 10,000 disabled all in the name of this very institution. Don't you feel the least we could have done and can do is have an investigation to gather more facts?
Too bad republican James Sensenbrenner wont allow it. I guess the Congressional hearing on steroid abuse in MLB is a more deserving issue.
Pathetic beyond words. This republican party is getting away with it now because they can. They will manipulate any laws necessary to achieve their desired end result. Keep in mind, this historic corruption is catching up with them very quickly and I'm sure the end result will be the full destruction of most involved.
COMMENT #62 [Permalink]
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Dana Pico
said on 4/6/2005 @ 6:44 pm PT...
How is it that the exit polls, conducted by a completely new consortium (the old VNS having been disbanded), are seen as just so accurate, while the vast majority of the professional polling organizations (Gallup, Harris and the rest, really everyone but Zogby) found an average advantage for President Bush of between 2 and 4% on the weekend prior to the election? Any corruption of the vote counting machinery would have no effect on those polls.
President Bush won the popular vote by a percentage that was within the average prediction range of the polls; he carried Ohio by just about the same percentage that state polls in Ohio had predicted. The other two "battleground states," Florida and Pennsylvania, both went the way the polls predicted for them as well.
There weren't even any surprises. Only three states voted differently from the way they voted in 2000, and all three of them were very close in 2000: New Mexico, which was carried by President Bush, was carried by Vice President Gore in 2000 by a whopping 366 votes!
The media have a vested interest in close elections, in real horseraces, because it brings them greater ratings, but they misreported the polls badly. We all heard how most leads throughout the polling season were within "the margin of error." That was true, as far as it goes. But as poll after poll continued to conclude the same thing, that President Bush had a 2 to 4% advantage (within the margin of error, for each poll individually), the cumulative effect of the polls is to reduce the probability of error; by the time the weekend polls had come around, the real margin for error was very small, and President Bush's lead was both real and substantial. Had the media reported that very simple fact, people would have gone into election day already knowing that President Bush was going to win, which would have had the effect of both depressing turnout and hurting viewership for the media.
The graph you had was interesting. I'm not certain that I find it credible that people, fallible human beings, beings subject to both bias and fatigue, would consistently make fewer errors than any of the types of voting machines currently in use, but it is at least an interesting notion. Perhaps if the American people were willing to wait for two weeks to get 120,000,000 votes hand-counted, to know the results, things might be different, but we all want to know who has won NOW!
COMMENT #63 [Permalink]
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Matt Clinton Kratoville
said on 4/6/2005 @ 8:00 pm PT...
Dear America:
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO! JOHN KERRY LOST OHIO!
The exit polls were wrong!!! Never believe the exit polls!!! Exit polls lie to you all the time!!! Never believe in them!!!
COMMENT #64 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 4/6/2005 @ 9:06 pm PT...
Ok, matt. we get your point. You can paste. Very nice.
Go back to sleep, matt. Somebody will wake you up when it's over.
COMMENT #65 [Permalink]
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Bob Bilse
said on 4/6/2005 @ 11:15 pm PT...
That's what you get for acknowledging a wanker.
This issue is so much bigger than prefering one of the candidates over the other. Anyone who tries to claim this voting system isn't in SERIOUS need of repair AND watchdogging, has an interest in seeing neocons advance their cause, and care less that it destroying the basis on which this country was founded.
There was NOTHING wrong with the exit polls. There was something VERY wrong with the actual tallies. Dick Morris says that exit polls are, treditionally, quite accurate (it's what led to The Ukraine straightening out their fraudulent election), then later tried to shuffle it around that the exit polls were way off, though it defies logic that they could be that wrong, and only favoring Bush, and only where those infernal Diebold machines were located.
This has little to do with Kerry. This is about a crime being commited against a country by their corrupt leaders.
COMMENT #66 [Permalink]
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Republicans are Fascists
said on 4/7/2005 @ 7:12 am PT...
-----
"That's what you get for acknowledging a wanker."
Bob Bilse
-----
Trust me Bob, I seen where that poster was coming from long before my reply. I put the info out there for those who are truly concerned but choose to lurk rather than post.
COMMENT #67 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 4/7/2005 @ 7:29 am PT...
I thought the exit poll/tabulated vote dispute had been settled to the satisfaction of all open-minded people. Apparently it hasn't been, from the silliness that's now appearing here.
Exit polls TAKEN ON THE DAY OF THE ELECTION (not a week before) had Kerry ahead by 3%. But the tabulated vote had Bush winning by 2-1/2%. That discrepancy is a one-in-a-million possibility.
Exit polls in Florida called the Senate race as a dead heat. Martinez won by a fraction of a point. Almost perfect. But it had the presidential race completely wrong, from Kerry winning by 2% to Bush winning by 1-1/2%. That is a statistical incongruency beyond any explanation but fraud.
Exit polls throughout the country were very accurate wherever paper ballots were used, whether it was a red state or a blue state. They diverged widely in the battleground states, which happen to use electronic voting more widely (except for Wisconsin, where evidence of fraud by Democrats is present, every battleground state showed a difference of 2-8 percentage points, always in Bush's favor in the tabulated vote).
By themselves these incongruities give the lie to the Mitofsky rationale, "Bush voters were more reluctant to talk to exit pollsters." It's not conceivable that Bush voters in electronic states were reluctant to talk, but Bush voters in paper-ballot states were willing. Pure nonsense.
The debate is over, intellectually. Kerry won the election. What has to be overcome, it seems to me, are the following:
1) The refusal of the corporate-controlled media to acknowledge the truth, because of fears of retaliation from the Bush administration, from their advertisers, and from stockholders of the parent companies.
2) The faux "bi-partisanship" that prevents even conscientious U.S. Representatives from appearing to be bad sports, and rationalizing their silence by saying, "There was fraud on both sides. Let's move on."
3) Public apathy toward honest elections. Over the years, many people have substituted cynicism for idealism about our democracy. For them, politics comes down to money, and if they have theirs, that's enough. "Democracy" has become an abstract word.
That's a lot to overcome. But we must do it, for the sake of our children and grandchildren.
COMMENT #68 [Permalink]
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Bob Bilse
said on 4/7/2005 @ 8:56 am PT...
Spot on, RLM. Right to the point. This issue is not as small as your guy winning or losing, then rationalizing the fraud away from that point of view.
You think for one minute Mitofsky thinks his exit polls were wrong? You're kidding yourself, if you do. This man's whole existence is based on his work being accurate and above-board, and it is. Where his exit polls were inaccurate is only where those damned hackable machines were used, and they ALL favor the candidate whom the exit polls show was the loser. This is a call for MAJOR election reform.
I was struck by RLM's statement about what has to be overcome:
"3) Public apathy toward honest elections. Over the years, many people have substituted cynicism for idealism about our democracy. For them, politics comes down to money, and if they have theirs, that's enough. "Democracy" has become an abstract word. "
Apathy. Particularly if your favorite won, and you don't really care how, as if somehow that is for the good of the country, regardless of fraud. "It's too unsettling and inconvenient to be bothered with the truth".
I know people who are GLAD the neocons hacked the vote (I think we've got a couple of them here).
People who don't even give a damn about the integrity of their own country, and don't give a damn about their own rights, will eventually lose them.
I remember a Will Rogers quote: "Stopping America would be like spitting on the track to stop the train. Y'just cain't do it"! I think many are suffering from that same delusion today.
I don't think ol' Will would be saying that today. I doubt he anticipated such a virile enemy within.
COMMENT #69 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 4/7/2005 @ 5:02 pm PT...
Will Rogers used laconic humor to avoid becoming cynical about politics. Example: "I don't belong to any organized party. I'm a Democrat."
John F. Kennedy, unfortunately, used sarcastic humor to charm people after the 1960 election, when his father persuaded Mayor Daley to cook the books in Illinois (Kennedy would still have won the election in the electoral college, but it was fraud nonetheless). J.F.K. joked at a black-tie dinner, "I, uh, asked my fathah not to steal one moah vote in Chicago than we needed."
Ha, ha, Jack. You were charming, all right. But you inadvertently sanctioned election fraud for generations to come. Nice going, pal. Thanks much.
COMMENT #70 [Permalink]
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Teresa
said on 4/7/2005 @ 11:22 pm PT...
Good going, Robert. I've been trying to explain this to people for some time. JFK was no hero of mine.
I do think, though, that election fraud goes back way further than that.
COMMENT #71 [Permalink]
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jrwarwick
said on 4/8/2005 @ 12:25 pm PT...
Phone polling places such as Zogby have been used as public opinion producers for quite some time. They work on the principle of human indecisiion whereby if someone says the majority of people believe A then always a fair chunk on undecideds move toward A as their choice by default. Now if just anyone knows this don't you think such polling companies would be a useful media asset for partisan groups?
Now then the basic argument becomes 'are such esteemed polling companies as Zogby influenced or infiltrated by partisan groups?'
I am currently believing YES due to the fact that Zogby is a predictive poll which is much less accurate than a real-data poll ie the exit poll.
COMMENT #72 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 4/8/2005 @ 12:42 pm PT...
At least back to 1824, Teresa, when Henry Clay finished fourth in the presidential election, then made a deal with John Quincy Adams (who had finished a distant second to Andrew Jackson) that gave Adams his votes. Other 19th century elections that smelled like yesterday's mackerel were in 1876 and 1888 (few people know about that one).
Jackson was cheated in 1824, but just rallied his supporters for the next election (which he won). Thus began the American tradition of not whining about election outcomes. Tilden in 1876 and Cleveland in 1888 just accepted their fates, as did Nixon in 1960.
JFK effectively licensed fraud with his wisecracks. He should have been ashamed, but nothing embarrassed Jack Kennedy, sad to say.
Now election fraud has gone high-tech, but the same "Don't be a sore loser" ethic prevails. My answer to that? "I'm not a sore loser. We didn't lose. You're a crooked winner." If we don't stop it now, the same crap will go on every two years.
COMMENT #73 [Permalink]
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Teresa
said on 4/8/2005 @ 2:26 pm PT...
Agreed.
And thanks for the history, Robert. There's so much crap, it's hard to keep up with the chronology, so I appreciate these encapsulations.
COMMENT #74 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 4/10/2005 @ 5:38 pm PT...
Today Kerry came out with a statement that certain people were denied an opportunity to vote. That's really helpful, John...considering that you conceded on Nov. 3, then took off for Iraq while people who really care about honest elections stayed home and fought the battle for you. Nice going, man. By the way, where have you been since November?
The Associated Press added that Republicans denied that anyone was prevented from voting. We have to keep the article balanced, don't you know.
Question...why are people spending their valuable time, and ours, on such claptrap, five months after the election? What good can come from such asinine talk? Do they think everyone else is stupid?
COMMENT #75 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 4/12/2005 @ 8:15 am PT...
Today's New York Times carried an Op-Ed piece by John Tierney, a new columnist for them. It was an eye-opener for several reasons.
Tierney was writing about Intrade, a futures market in Ireland that makes predicitions about current events. Big bettors, big leverage, big game. I was aware of the marketplace, but I hadn't heard that Intrade had forecast every state in our 2004 election, right on the button!
Think about it, friends. People in Ireland "guessed" every state correctly, while the exit polls (which represented actual voters) were off by 5-1/2%!!!!!
After citing Intrade's accuracy, Tierney went on to discuss the upcoming Papal election in the Vatican. He apparently never put two and two together, and said to himself, "Gee whiz...this is suspicous! I wonder if possibly the big bettors knew what was going to happen, because they were involved." Or, he suspected as much, but was afraid to write it (or did write it and was censored).
I wrote a letter to the editor. Stay tuned.
COMMENT #76 [Permalink]
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Jerry O'Riordan
said on 4/13/2005 @ 1:28 pm PT...
Has John Kerry won Ohio yet?
COMMENT #77 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 4/15/2005 @ 1:16 pm PT...
He won it on Nov. 2. You just don't know it yet.
COMMENT #78 [Permalink]
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Dana Pico
said on 4/16/2005 @ 4:22 pm PT...
"He won it on Nov. 2. You just don't know it yet." --- Mr. Mills
And neither does anyone else.
Hey, if President Bush was able to manage to rig an entire national election, along with the pre-election polls which showed him winning by just about the margin that he did, then he deserves to be president, 'cause he's obviously a lot smarter than the entire Democratic Party!
COMMENT #79 [Permalink]
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gwbushmalecheerleader
said on 4/17/2005 @ 3:32 am PT...
Well well! Tonight, I received an "automatic update" from Microsoft. I downloaded it: And now I get bradblog again!!
Yep, it's been weeks now, since something went haywire in my laptop (I thought!), and dozens of sites I could not access, what a hassle.
Anyway, I would like to put my two cents in about "our" fascist in America not the same as Hitler's "fascism" because why??? We're not RACISTS??
Are you kidding me???
Do you think for one minute we would be bombing and killing tens of thousands of WHITE FOLK if Sweden was sitting on the world's third largest oil reserve???
Listen people, Bush and Hitler BOTH are or were supported by Military/industrial complex.
Both. Exactly the same. That Jews became Muslims as the target means nothing, it is the SAME THING.
I would suggest reading:
Pool,J. Hitler and His Secret Partners. 1997
... Hitler and His Secret Partners: Contributions, Loot and Rewards, 1933-1945.
... "Who Financed Hitler: The Secret Funding of Hitler's Rise to Power, ...
www.namebase.org/sources/cV.html - Similar pages
If you want to REALLY know what you are talking about when you hear someone RIGHTFULLY comparer Hitler and Bush. A great book.
And please, if you are of the Jewish faith, spare me the lecture, and I will spare you the history lesson my Armenian Grandfather taught me about who the term Genocide was coined for in the last century, ok?
Now, back on subject: Who is alleging Kerry stole Wisconsin?????
Give me a link, or keep your speculation to yourself.
This will not go away, because this isn't 1963, and I'm not a 9 year old in D.C. watching my teacher cry when hope died.
This is the internet.
We control your set.
We control the vertical.
We control the horizontal.
We tell the truth ;
Relax, these a-holes are going down.
And I'll be there to help shove them in the hole so deep, we won't even remember the word *republican*
COMMENT #80 [Permalink]
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gwbushmalecheerleader
said on 4/17/2005 @ 4:00 am PT...
My goodness, I wll say it: JFK was a hero of mine.
Yes, I did hear that Mayor Dailey had rigged the vote in Chicago , and that JFK fraudulently won Illinois.
Did someone here allege JFK knew this AT THE TIME???
I will say this to: If Nixon really won the election in 62, then he should have challenged the outcome in court, and if he could prove it, then the election, if he would have won the electoral college too, should have gone to him.
Personally, I always felt that Humphrey kicked Nixon's ass, and that the republicans stole that election, but I have no proof, so i won't blame Nixon for inventing election fraud, as some here seem to like to lay on JFK.
JFK, that wouldn't back the earlydays neocon invasion of Cuba, by GHW Bush's gang at the CIA.
JFK was going to get us out of Vietnam.
JFK removed that Nazi Dulles as head of CIA.
JFK was bypassing the usury Federal Reserve Bank, by issuing DOLLARS based on SILVER RESERVES.
Tell me we wouldn't be better off without the Fed.
You dis JFK.
I liked him then, I still like him now.
That he slept with Marilyn, while married to Jackie?
I should be so lucky.
COMMENT #81 [Permalink]
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Jerry O'Riordan
said on 4/18/2005 @ 1:05 pm PT...
If Richard Nixon had won the election of '62, he would have beat Pat Brown for the Governorship of the Golden State. Nixon would be Governor of California and we would have had Nixon to kick around some more.
COMMENT #82 [Permalink]
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AJones
said on 4/20/2005 @ 11:08 am PT...
I would point out that the votes in persidential elections are completely worthless. All that matters is the Electoral College (forgive my bad spelling). here have been elections in the past where the popular vote, and what should have been the electoral vote clearly indicated that one of the candidates be elected, and the EC dicided to ignore the people's oppinions and voted in the other candidate. According to the way election law is currently formatted, 99% of every state could have voted for Kerry, but if the EC all wanted to vote in Bush it wouldn't have mattered one bit what the general public wanted. It jut so happens that the vast majority of the time the EC goes with the public oppinion of their state for whatever their personal reasons are.
COMMENT #83 [Permalink]
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President George Walker Bush
said on 4/20/2005 @ 1:26 pm PT...
Good morning! My name is George Walker Bush! I'm the 43rd President of the United States! I've been legally elected as your leader! Everything was done in accordance with the law! How could you people possibly think otherwise?
Do not listen to the naysayers! Do not listen to the doom and gloom!
If anything, the exit polls were totally flawed and incorrect! The votes themselves were accurate!
So don't listen to those people who insist that John Kerry somehow won the election, even if he got the requisite number of electrical votes!
I didn't do anything wrong! Nobody saw me do anything wrong! You can't prove that I did anything wrong!
I was elected President fair and square! You cannot prove otherwise! You will not prove otherwise!
I'm doing a great job as your president! Relations with Red China are going great! I love Red China! Relations with Red China will continue to prosper!
I get to be President until noon on January 20, 2009. I will remain as your president and I'm going to continue to do a wonderful job!
So give it up, people! You can't prove a thing! I'm the president and you can't touch me!
Quit telling people that John Kerry won the election! By the way, what ever happened to him!?
I'm George Walker Bush and I paid for this letter!
Have a wonderful day! Suckers!
COMMENT #84 [Permalink]
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mike
said on 5/6/2005 @ 6:32 pm PT...
Prior to the election, there was no reason to suspect that the exit polling organizaitons were going to filx their results (although afterwards, there was abundant reason).
Prior to the election, there were many reasons to suspect that the voting technology and tabulation would be fixed to gain more votes for Bush.
Given the motives, it is obvious that the exit polls are the best means to ascertain the reliability of the vote count. God bless all you voting rights advocates.
BTW, can anyone comment on the legitimacy of this *"Febble"* person? I'm having real trouble figuring out (a) why all the attention (WashPost, etc.) and (b) what her motivations are.
COMMENT #85 [Permalink]
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mike
said on 5/6/2005 @ 6:33 pm PT...
Prior to the election, there was no reason to suspect that the exit polling organizaitons were going to filx their results (although afterwards, there was abundant reason).
Prior to the election, there were many reasons to suspect that the voting technology and tabulation would be fixed to gain more votes for Bush.
Given the motives, it is obvious that the exit polls are the best means to ascertain the reliability of the vote count. God bless all you voting rights advocates.
BTW, can anyone comment on the legitimacy of this *"Febble"* person? I'm having real trouble figuring out (a) why all the attention (WashPost, etc.) and (b) what her motivations are.
COMMENT #86 [Permalink]
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Jerry O'Riordan
said on 5/8/2005 @ 7:33 pm PT...
Has John Kerry won Ohio yet???
I asked around this Mother's Day and every tyme I asked, people called me a mother. I wonder what they meant. How come people are so touchy over the state of Ohio?
COMMENT #87 [Permalink]
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NOTaLOOSER
said on 9/19/2005 @ 9:50 pm PT...
The Demoncrats wrote the book on vote-fraud:
http://www.ipsn.org/chiviol.html
And, after some reflection on actual facts instead of hysteria, the truth comes out, and it doesn't favor the Dems:
http://home.att.net/~trackitdown/elections.html
I know you folks aren't going to believe facts over your deeply held prejudice, but that's a looser's choice, after all.
http://www.pardonmyengli...5/08/democrat_voter.html
As to who the trustworthyness of USVotecounts, I need to see independent material from staticticians I trust, before I buy into their "conclusions." Till then, I don't trust them.
In any case, the VAST MAJORITY of evidence on vote fraud that I have seen implicates Dems almost exclusively, which tells me that the USVotecount conclusions probably won't hold up under careful and honest scrutiny, which they may be getting here:
http://www.mysterypollst...4/what_the_uscv_r_1.html
And, guess what! USCV really aren't holding up too well.
But don't worry, Soooppper Dem probably has another magic smoke-n-mirrors bomb just ready to deploy when this latest is debunked.
COMMENT #88 [Permalink]
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BINGO!!!!
said on 9/21/2005 @ 10:07 pm PT...
Smoke 'em if you got 'em!
I wasn't even looking for this, but it fell right into my lap. It shows that there was a LOT of hanky-panky with the exit-polls, NOT with the vote counts. Of course, if the exit-polls were ok, you might be onto something, except that one of your own leftwing friends (I pointed out in last post, #87) seems to think otherwise. So you loose on both counts.
Talk about dousing the candle at both ends!
Read 'em and weep...
http://www.renewamerica..../columns/wambough/050107
Shame on you!
Bad Blog!
Well, my work here is done.
Hi Ho, Beauregard! (all the good names were taken)
.....AWAAAYYYYY