Soooo...all along, for the past last eight years and probably more, the terrorists were actually IN the US of A, US citizens no less! The PNAC group are the actual terrorists!

Looptie lopey lie , looptie lopey low...or whatever.

And by the way... for those who are, perforce, having to claim nonstop that Obama is playing 11-dimensional chess while we only know how to play tic-tac-toe....

http://firedoglake.com/2...ed-military-commissions/

There is no excuse.

Thank you, zap, thank you very much indeed.

i copied this from firedogs comments as it sums up my questions

"Let’s not underestimate what a brutal situation Obama is in with this detainee problem. The Bush/Cheney torture policies make it near impossible to try these people in a normal court of law; almost all the evidence against them is tainted. Any honest judge in a normal US court would have to release most of them, if not all, and that would be a political disaster. My assumption is that there are a few guys we have there that actually are dangerous (even a blind squirrel finds a few nuts), and the rest might have become so under this sort of treatment. No other country seems to want to deal with this hot potato either, so Obama is stuck with it.

Honestly, what would you guys do with these people at this point?"

the torture was dispicable and those involved should be prosecuted BUT what of the actual terrorists that have been brutilized? do we just let them go because their rights have been violated? or even worse do we set precident by using tainted evidence against them?

I would be an American and let them all go, with plenty enough money to reintegrate into society. If their home countries won't take them or are a danger to them, they should be welcome here, even if they might go berserk, because that was the point to our justice system to begin with. We decided it was better to let criminals and dangers to us run loose when we had denied them their rights than to face the danger of denied rights becoming the norm. I was raised in this knowledge and agree with it 100%, no matter what. It's the only insurance of a decent nation with liberty and justice for all.

"It's the only insurance of a decent nation with liberty and justice for all."

It's certainly insurance of a complete Republican take-over of Congress and the White House and the Judiciary Branch for several generations to come. So why not just do it? There's nothing to lose, right?

It is in no way certainly any such a thing, Brad, and I'm not advocating throwing caution to the wind. I'm advocating we turn back into America. You have shown that a huge part of the takeover by Republicans was a result of fraudulent elections, not popular opinion... no matter how obedient to giving this impression the MSM has been.

The people want REAL, American, leadership again. Almost everyone but the criminals and some of their diehard acolytes agrees on that.

We want the fascist influence gone.

We want a fully functioning and fair Judiciary back.

We want to stop killing innocent people.

We want the plutocrats to go back to counting their money in the distance and not looting our treasury and every other country they can make the government attack.

We want our Fourth Amendment back.

We want our Second Amendment back.

We want the whole Bill of Rights, the whole Constitution back.

We can't get any of these things back if people keep freaking that there really is some huge percentage of slobbering ninnies afraid of berserk guys we made berserk with torture. If those detainees get to see their persecutors locked up, that will do more to satisfy them, AND US, than any other thing. To suppose otherwise is just a form of hysteria, even if we can be excused for it from these long years of having our sensibilities bludgeoned by maniacs. Most of us will very happily see justice done, take the consequences as long as we know we have put these things to rights, and adore whoever has the BRAINS AND BALLS to get it done.

... karen from illinois asked...

"BUT what of the actual terrorists that have been brutalized? do we just let them go because their rights have been violated?"

BUT what of the actual innocents who were
swept up in Bush's bounty hunts? Do we just
deny them their rights and condemn them to indefinite detention via secret trials because Cheney et al have tortured so much they might have turned into actual terrorists?

As for any actual terrorists... the Bush regime blew any chance of ever gaining legitimate convictions when they tortured their prisoners.

And furthermore through their clumsy attempts at "quick-rinse" interrogations... the supposedly coercion-free after-torture sessions designed to wash away the stain of torture from the coerced testimony... Bush and company have also blown any chance of ever gaining convictions on those charges.

At least in a court of law.

And secret trials before military commisions cannot be regarded as a court of law.

We made our bed when our President, Obama, refused to hold Bush et al accountable for their crimes... and now we must sleep in it.

zap,brad and 99,
you all 3 made good points but our bed was made years ago,obama prosecuting or not doesnt change the legal challenge of what precedents are set as to how the tainted evidence is handled,and the time for screaming about that was when padilla was convicted because he was and is an american citizen

At some point you must stop committing the crime, ie. you release the people being detained for no reason .Then you debrief the victims and document their claims and accusations ,you subpoena all involved in any torture reported by hostages/prisoners ,you investigate who authorized the torture and you prosecute them , you compensate the victims for their duress.You do all this in the open ,not in secret as is the new "normal" .America executed Japanese Officials after World War 2 for these same crimes.
The world is watching ...

As Jon Stewart said, it's OK if the ticking timebomb goes off...if the Arabic interpreter who is interpreting the person being tortured...IS GAY! According to the Confederate Jesus Party.

That's your proof of what bullshit this "ticking timebomb" scenario is. It's NOT "get the information at all costs", "use anything at our disposal." Did any reporter ask Cheney, "If the interpreter who would translate the torturee's information was GAY, would you fire him and let the 'ticking timebomb' go off?"

Oh, crap. Oh, crap. This very seriously is not good. Jeremy Scahill knows his stuff. He has been THE authority on Blackwater, and does impeccable investigative work. If he's writing about it, it's serious.

... karen from illinois said...

zap,brad and 99,
you all 3 made good points but our bed was made years ago,obama prosecuting or not doesnt change the legal challenge of what precedents are set as to how the tainted evidence is handled,and the time for screaming about that was when padilla was convicted because he was and is an american citizen

I'm sorry but this makes no sense.

We were not able to stop the Bush regime when they subverted the rule of law so now we must not criticize when Obama reneges on his myriad promises to return to the rule of law?

I think I gotta throw in here with zap, karen. We couldn't get Congress to impeach for it, or any Republican AGs to stop it and to prosecute for it, and that was probably the biggest reason so many Republicans voted for Obama. They, we all, wanted the war crimes and the Constitution trashing to stop and the culprits prosecuted. That Scahill piece I linked in #12 is not a good sign.

No Bravery

Amy Goodman talking to John Sifton about torture deaths

John Sifton post on The Daily Beast about torture deaths

We're not talking about stuff for which precedent in a single case, or even a few cases, or even a lot of them, can waive responsibility.

zap,
i didnt say dont critize obama,i think every1 involved in torture from bushco/cheney to the bs lawyers to the people that did the torture should be prosecuted...but thats a dif debate than ,what do we do now

the former admin has ruined the cases against these terrorists,that was my point,even if obama did what i want and prosecuted former admin,the cases are still ruined...thats why i said "bed was made long ago"

i am just trying to look at both sides

brad is correct tho,if obama followed 99 suggestion,the repubs would tear him to peices and 99,you should know better than most,it doesnt matter what popular opionion is all the neo cons need to steal an election is the APPEARANCE of popular opionion and the msm to spread it

all it took for kerry was a wind boarding pic,could you imagine what o turning loose ksm would do?

karen from illinois said...

all it took for kerry was a wind boarding pic,could you imagine what o turning loose ksm would do?

And what the fuck?

If a court of law decides that KSM is guilty based on, say, pre-torture testimony, then he'll be imprisoned... with definite prison term guidelines.

If a court of law decides that KSM is too dangerous to release anyway because he's bound to kill someone then he'll be imprisoned... with definite prison and/or medical guidelines.

If a court of law decides that KSM cannot be found guilty and is not going to kill someone then he'll be released... with definite release conditions.

But as KSM has made it very clear he doesn't intend to stop his planning of terrorism... ever... in realpolitik this is a non-issue.

But it must be in a court of law, not a secret tribunal with hidden rules and hidden testimony... a court of law.

Or are you arguing that we should eternally imprison someone who can't be legally convicted (because of BushCo's screwups) strictly for political expediency?

And you still haven't addressed the issue of the innocents.

And as for fear of the wingnuts: they're already whipping up hysteria over the possibility of detainees getting fair trials in the USA by equating that with turning them loose putting them on welfare, and giving them free care packages of AK-47's and plastique... that's why Obama is suddenly talking secret trials... so you want to cave in to these unamerican assholes out of fear and give their talking points even more credibility... and give them more power?

That's really how the country got into this mess in the first place. Pistol-whipped progressives.

Dear Di k,
Do you know where I can find the "Sean Klannity Action Figure",
you being a f iend of his and all ... it looks somethin like this ?
Thanks,
B.H.
P.S. I need a new ribbon.

The laws that we take for granted, that protect human rights should be followed. Creating new categories such as "enemy combatant" to get around the Constitution of the United States and the Geneva conventions is bogus. The people being held are either criminals or war prisoners or possibly innocent, and should be treated as such, period. The torturers should be treated as criminals or war criminals.

The persons who have been tortured should get medical and psychological help. If there is no evidence against them, they should be released. How would anyone feel about our own soldiers or people being treated this way? Do you think you might want justice if the young man next door was captured, photographed being tortured naked in a secret prison and held indefinitely?

It is a greater threat to our soldiers as the leading world power to validate torture by committing it, then not prosecuting it when it becomes known. This gives others the permission to do the same to our soldiers. We have been the beacon of hope for the whole world.

The light grows dimmer as the man so many of us voted for backs away from his responsibility to execute the laws of our land and moves back into the security of secret trials. Power corrupts.

Neither can we count on our elected representatives. Why is it that once elected, they lose their spines? Are they tempted by money? Power? Blackmailed? What on earth is going on up there in Washington D.C.?

Perhaps it is time for all Republicans who truly believe in smaller government to cast off their party and become Libertarians. Democrats who believe in Civil Rights, health care and protecting the environment should join the Green Party.
(but that would depend on whether or not the third parties could enjoy the same rules as the major parties for just getting on the ballot)

Frank Rich, NYT op ed: "Obama Can't Turn the Page on Bush"...

http://www.nytimes.com/2...;partner=rss&emc=rss

A totally compromised military, intelligence, press and government at the highest levels can not be the light of the world. And I'm not saying everyone is totally compromised, hell its apparent by what's coming out the some maintained their integrity, aside from the cover their ass crew. But, Spain and many other countries know this and are taking action so Obama better get with it pretty quick or we will lose the last chance to be known as a functioning democracy. We either have a rule of law as we knew it before bush's abomination or the position has gotten to Obama too. And like I've stated before the world will not allow us to continue down this bloody path!

zap said,

"If a court of law decides that KSM is guilty based on, say, pre-torture testimony, then he'll be imprisoned... with definite prison term guidelines."

i am no lawyer but i know the difference between right and wrong,wtf is this new pre torture testimony? are you suggesting that after a suspect admits guilt it is ok to torture them,that that would not poison the case?

don't you realize this was exactly the kind of precedent i am worried about? this all should of come out when padilla was convicted but he was so damaged or brainwashed he would NOT help in his own defense and he IS an american citizen

zap said,

"If a court of law decides that KSM is too dangerous to release anyway because he's bound to kill someone then he'll be imprisoned... with definite prison and/or medical guidelines. "

so now we are back to imprisoning peoples for what we think they will do in the future

zaps option number 3,

"If a court of law decides that KSM cannot be found guilty and is not going to kill someone then he'll be released... with definite release conditions. "

i want to zero in on the "def release conditions"

how can we impose release conditons if he is innocent? and remember according to our justice system ,he is innocent til PROVEN guilty

zap said,
"But as KSM has made it very clear he doesn't intend to stop his planning of terrorism... ever... in realpolitik this is a non-issue."

how we convict the worst of the worst is actually the whole point....even ksm is innocent til proven according to our constitution,isn't he?

zap said,
"But it must be in a court of law, not a secret tribunal with hidden rules and hidden testimony... a court of law."

the secret,hidden part is the prob,so we agree here

zap said,
"Or are you arguing that we should eternally imprison someone who can't be legally convicted (because of BushCo's screwups) strictly for political expediency?"

i am not aurguing that at all but i am saying i can see how much of a mess this is and that i think bushco prob left us in this mess on purpose

zap says,

"And you still haven't addressed the issue of the innocents."

of course the innocent should be freed and compensated for the time stole from them and the torture they endured,when the 15 or 16 year old boy commited suicide i cried,he had been held,beaten and tortured since he was 12...the problem is according to our laws,since all the cases seem to be tainted all are innocent

zap said,
"that's why Obama is suddenly talking secret trials... so you want to cave in to these unamerican assholes out of fear and give their talking points even more credibility... and give them more power?

That's really how the country got into this mess in the first place. Pistol-whipped progressives. "

i really don't understand your anger,cussing and name calling towards me when all i said was it's a very difficult situation that bushco has left us in..which is no suprise,hind sight being 20/20 * almost always did the worst possible thing for the country

the trouble we are in started in 1913 when the fed was illegally created and income tax was illegally imposed,were those progressives pistol whipped?
in 1913 i suppose it was still a def possiblity but i will add one more thought

it looks to me like torture is the shiney object the msm is waving while warrentless wiretapping seems to be completely accepted now,,,afterall if we are gonna imprison peoples for what we think they might do SPYING ON EVERYONE WILL COME IN HANDY

zap,
we are not on different sides of this issue,i just see how difficult a position o is in

jeanies link @ 19 shows how we only know the tip of the iceberg about the illegal things the last admin did

have i mentioned lately that the soe software is in place to steal the election in 2010,that there is a huge possibility that illinois will have a rep govenor?....bbv middleman report tells us in detail who and what the soe software belongs to and it aint pistol whipped dems

karen

I don't think zap was "cussing and name calling" toward you, but toward the pigs who got us into this mess, and he was talking about if there were a real conviction in a real court of law based on pre-torture information. I think his position is something like mine: That if guilt is proven on LEGAL terms, then they might have a choice about how these guys are released or not released on the grounds that their rights were completely ignored.

It could well be, it looks to be, that some of these detainees have been driven mad by our inhuman treatment of them --- KSM being certainly one of them --- and so it might be better if some way to make sure they get help were found than to just turn them out there willy-nilly. I think that is reasonable IF it is for the good of the detainee and IF he is released as soon as he's not psychotic anymore.

Even if there was provable guilt pre-torture, it can't serve to mitigate that there was torture and that should mean we cannot proceed against them. This being the unholy mess I think zap was cussing about, we need in a few cases to find the safest for the detainee way to give some justice back. There are a few hundred of them left, and only a handful who are known to have been made psychotic. In these few cases, some way must be found to make sure they are brought back from the condition of being a danger to themselves and others before letting them go... hope that they can be mended enough to have their lives back.

Anyway, I really think zap is angry with the swine who got us into this mess, and not cussing at you or calling you names.

He's just really angry about this mess, and so are most of us.

I guess I should add for all of you out there who believe we can't let these guys go because they now mean us harm, even if they didn't to begin with, that this is the United States of America, and we long ago decided that a suspect's civil and human rights were more important than his conviction, that wherever these had been breached the suspect would be freed. This is the only insurance that law enforcement and government won't abuse their power. Well, our government DID abuse their power with these detainees. If you want your country back, you want them released. Even if it scares you, even if the cost is high. Because that really is the only way America gets back to being America again.