READER COMMENTS ON
"BILL TO BAN DRE (TOUCH-SCREEN) VOTING MACHINES FINALLY INTRODUCED IN SENATE!"
(40 Responses so far...)
COMMENT #1 [Permalink]
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Soul Rebel
said on 11/1/2007 @ 11:33 pm PT...
2012? I know...let's Impeach Bush in 2012 also. Are they having us on...wtf is the point in introducing this kind of bill for five years down the road.
Ban them now. Impeach Bush now.
www.Call4Democracy.org
COMMENT #2 [Permalink]
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papau
said on 11/2/2007 @ 5:36 am PT...
The key provisions of Holt are in the bill - the audit and paper trail rules:
"...electronic tally shall not be used as the exclusive basis for de-termining the official certified vote tally.
RULE FOR CONSIDERATION OF BALLOTS ASSOCIATED WITH EACH VOTING MACHINE.—For purposes of clause (i), only the paper ballots deemed compromised, if any, shall be considered in the calculation of whether or not the result of the election could be changed due to the compromised paper ballots.
...in the event that the unofficial count as described in section 323(a)(1) reveals that the margin of victory between the two candidates receiving the largest number of votes in the election is less than 1 percent of the total votes cast in that election, the hand counts of the voter-verified paper ballots shall occur in at least 10 percent
...greater than or equal to 1 percent but less than 2 percent of the total votes cast in that election, the hand counts of the voter-verified paper ballots shall occur in at least 5 percent
...greater than 2 percent of the total votes cast ..in that election, the hand counts of the voter-verified paper ballots shall occur in at least 3 percent"
.
If Holt had passed we'd now be into conference and preparing for 08 audits - but you and others saw "fatal flaws" in Holt - so we will not have audits in 08, and God only knows where this bill is going now that there is no bill coming out of the House. I hope we do have this bill in place for 2012 -but we could have had as much much more easily, and in 08, if you and friends had not opposed Holt.
COMMENT #3 [Permalink]
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John Dean
said on 11/2/2007 @ 6:17 am PT...
"ES&S is a Good voting machine company..."
Brad, I might make me some popcorn and take the day off!
But first, let's remind viewers of this immortal thread at DU, where Diebold's Robert Pelletier as Neil B Forzod, aka Wally O'Diebold and therealrobp, goes toe to toe with Kathy Dopp, aka SunshineKathy.
Kathy "ES&S is a Good voting machine company" Dopp, versus Diebold's "Neil B Forzod" Robert Pelletier - hilarious stuff.
COMMENT #4 [Permalink]
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Big Dan
said on 11/2/2007 @ 7:25 am PT...
COMMENT #5 [Permalink]
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the_zapkitty
said on 11/2/2007 @ 7:44 am PT...
... John Dean said...
Kathy "ES&S is a Good voting machine company" Dopp...
You mispelled Kathy "I sold out Election Integrity to the Electronic Voting Machine Corporations and their secret software in return for my flawed audit strategies and no I'm not really Papau" Dopp...
... 'sawright, though... just happens sometimes...
... now gots to plow through this latest bill...
COMMENT #6 [Permalink]
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Linda
said on 11/2/2007 @ 9:10 am PT...
Good article, Brad! This is definitely one I am retaining a link to as a future reference.
I am so reluctant to throw myself behind this, though, as it makes its way to the floor for a vote, and undoubtedly changes due to all the inevitable backroom dealing. At what point can we be assured that this is a keeper?
Also, I have a question for you. Is it possible on the internet to find out exactly which individuals and businesses within industries are contributing to legislative coffers, and in what amounts? I recently discovered, thanks to Colbert, the following site:
http://www.opensecrets.org/
It contains a lot of useful information, but not in the detail I'm interested in obtaining.
For example, I'd like to learn how much each touch-screen voting machine company is contributing to which candidates, including through PACs, collective efforts, and other routes that allow them to hide themselves from citizen scrutiny.
COMMENT #7 [Permalink]
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Colleen
said on 11/2/2007 @ 9:28 am PT...
OK Guys!
We all knew legislation could not, would not, happen overnight. It is up to EACH ONE OF US to contact our County Registrar to volunteer to be a part of the election/vote counting process. If you are worried about whether your vote will be counted in the next election, become a poll worker or organize a group to oversee the transparency of your vote being processed from marking your X to seeing it on the official documents. Don't let the MEDIA or the "elected" officials tell us who won --- WE WILL TELL THEM WHO WON WHEN WE, THE CITIZENS, ARE FINISHED COUNTING THE BALLOTS. Period. But that means WE get involved. We still have a choice on how this all plays out. Take advantage of it before we don't have that choice.
COMMENT #8 [Permalink]
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the_zapkitty
said on 11/2/2007 @ 9:45 am PT...
... Linda asked...
"At what point can we be assured that this is a keeper?"
At no point.
To be be precise, at no point before the final vote is the public guaranteed that a certain version of a bill is the version that will be passed.
The committee - markup - amendment - floor vote - conference - amendment - final vote process introduces the possibility of screwing up the bill at each and every intermediate step of the way.
This process is a necessary evil, but is one that can be gamed nonstop...
COMMENT #9 [Permalink]
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John Gideon
said on 11/2/2007 @ 10:06 am PT...
Papau #2 -
You say, "If Holt had passed we'd now be into conference and preparing for 08 audits - but you and others saw "fatal flaws" in Holt"
Perhaps a lesson on today's Congress is in order. The Dem. majority in the Senate is not really a majority. Not much goes to the floor for a vote that is not "filibuster proof". That means 60 votes minimum.
According to Senate Rules Committee staff, no election related bill will be allowed out of the committee to go to the floor unless it is assured of being "filibuster proof" and no election related bill will have that assurance.
So, if Holt is voted on by the House and gets a majority it will probably die in the Senate.
And there is nothing that the proponents or opponents of Holt will be able to do about that. It's just a fact of life right now.
COMMENT #10 [Permalink]
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Phil
said on 11/2/2007 @ 10:46 am PT...
If it wasn't asking for real leadership from both the R's and the D's , I would suggest that this be changed to be executed and rolled out in 5 months, instead of 5 years, and to include, "All electronic tabulation devices" , instead of just DRE's.
And again for those who may try to misinterpret me, I am not saying you can't use a PRINTER to PRINT a PAPER ballot, but you can't use microprocessors and logic to count PAPER BALLOTS.
If we knew a dam was going to fail in 2008, would we waste five years time before sending someone to quick fix it; at least by lowering the water level, and relieving the pressure with a diversion tunnel?
Perhaps we would. As it seems it takes a major catastrophe before "so-called" leaders are moved to do fix anything. Even post catastrophe our leaders seem inept.
Think how much damage can be done in five more years.
Maybe with the late night talk shows on strike, corporate media might use that missing time for some real journalism, instead of trying to poll to figure out what re-runs of decade old series' viewers want to regurgitate.
#9 above, spot on with what you say about not having a majority. Seems to me though a filibuster should work two ways though, but doesn't seem to work that way, when you add in the reality of a presidential veto on everything without (what is it 66 votes?)
COMMENT #11 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 11/2/2007 @ 11:48 am PT...
"Papau" #2 foolishly said:
If Holt had passed we'd now be into conference and preparing for 08 audits - but you and others saw "fatal flaws" in Holt - so we will not have audits in 08, and God only knows where this bill is going now that there is no bill coming out of the House. I hope we do have this bill in place for 2012 -but we could have had as much much more easily, and in 08, if you and friends had not opposed Holt.
As John Gideon mentioned above, even if Holt's bill had passed, you'd need a Senate counterpart to have passed. So your silly argument fails on that alone.
The Nelson bill calls for audits for '08 almost exactly like those proposed in the intial HR81 Holt bill.
That said, however, audits of DRE machines are even worse than useless. "Worse"? Yes.
An audit of a DRE system where the paper trail has been gamed along with the internal numbers, could result in showing DREs to be "100% accurate" even though they had been gamed. In the meantime, the audit of the paper-based op-scan system next to it might (likely) be found as inaccurate.
The result: You've just created ammunition for killing paper-based systems and going to all DREs because they have been found to be "the most accurate" by the standards of the bill you fought for!
Think ahead "Papau" and other Holt supporters. And be careful what you wish for.
COMMENT #12 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 11/2/2007 @ 11:52 am PT...
Linda #6 asked:
I am so reluctant to throw myself behind this, though, as it makes its way to the floor for a vote, and undoubtedly changes due to all the inevitable backroom dealing. At what point can we be assured that this is a keeper?
I'm not suggesting it's "a keeper" now for that matter! Be sure to read the whole article. Also, be sure to read the bill before supporting it (as with ANY bill!)
You are wise to be skeptical. Please continue to be (with a note that "skeptical" is not the same as "cynical")
Also, I have a question for you. Is it possible on the internet to find out exactly which individuals and businesses within industries are contributing to legislative coffers, and in what amounts?
It's not easy. As you note. There are other sites like OpenSecrets out there, and as well, candidates must file disclosures for their campaign donations. Those are public record. But they must be tracked down, and then the names and companies must be researched to figure it all out.
In other words, they don't make it easy to find what you're looking for, but it *can* be found out. Usually. With enough digging.
COMMENT #13 [Permalink]
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Jeannie Dean in FL-13
said on 11/2/2007 @ 11:57 am PT...
#2: PAPAU--
"...If Holt had passed we'd now be into conference and preparing for 08 audits."
Really? Can you sure about that?...
In Florida, the 2nd District Court of Appeals just ruled AGAINST S.A.F.E's paper ballot/ mandatory 5% audit charter amendment that voters passed by 55% on Nov. 7th, 2006. Another strange victory for the ES&S and their deluded minion, SOE Kathy Dent aided by the confused efforts SOS Kurt Browning, whose position on DRE's is suspect, at best. He says one thing, does the opposite.
To assume you would have clean and easy steering POST HOLT to pass new audit laws through this same, hapless body before 2008 seems as unlikely to me as Santi Clause raining down election reform in shiny boxes from his sleigh. I admire your absurd faith.
http://www.heraldtribune.../711020314/1270/NEWS0101
and
http://www.heraldtribune.../711010400/1270/NEWS0101
COMMENT #14 [Permalink]
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abacus
said on 11/2/2007 @ 1:47 pm PT...
Kindly remember that HR 811 makes review of e-voting software the province of experts of unstated qualifications, selected by unknown beurocrats and bound by non-disclosure agreements not to say what they may have found...
This, friends and colleagues, is in no way transparent --- [besids being futile; but that's a topic for another time.]
COMMENT #15 [Permalink]
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Emily Levy
said on 11/2/2007 @ 3:06 pm PT...
Question for Senator Nelson:
If DREs are "unreliable and vulnerable to error," and if "[t]he bottom line is we have to ensure every vote is counted – and, counted properly," as declared in your November 1 statement, why would you be willing to wait until 2012 for DREs to be banned?
I mean, isn't there a somewhat important election coming up in, oh, let's say, 2008?
May the support you get for this portion of your bill lead to you to amend it to require paper ballots (not paper trails) in 2008!
COMMENT #16 [Permalink]
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the_zapkitty
said on 11/2/2007 @ 3:14 pm PT...
COMMENT #17 [Permalink]
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MarkH
said on 11/2/2007 @ 4:19 pm PT...
This legislation is BIG news, but we haven't yet reached the promised land. Or, is it the denied land?
Still, we've got the fight moved from California to Congress and it seems we have some interested members who are pretty much on our side.
Yes, this is good news.
COMMENT #18 [Permalink]
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Barbara Bellows-TerraNova
said on 11/2/2007 @ 5:02 pm PT...
Once again I find myself typing out "Hallelujah" on the BradBlog site!
And a Happy All Saints Day it is!
But the point of All Saints Day is to rise like the phoenix out of the fear, away from the evils both real and imagined, into the light of Truth, of Good/God, and Compassion.
And so it is we truly experience this transformation this year.
For surely we have been living years of fear, because of the evils both real (stolen elections protected by a corrupt Department of Justice --- every federal agency being handed over to corporate lobbyists --- and, worst of all,the annihilation of the Iraqi and Afghan civilizations, as well as the sacrifice of American lives, all to feed the insatiable greed of the oil, arms manufacturing and service industries) --- and imagined (the Bush/Cheney/Powell/Rice/Rumsfeld/Giuliani drumbeats).
To fully wallow in the depths of Halloween this year, my daughter and I went to closing night of the brilliant, dark Sondheim musical Sweeney Todd in Park City, Utah.
Though I know the music fairly well, and have seen it before both on the video and in a large theater, this time, in an intimate theater, with a brilliant cast, and with years now of never-ending horrific realizations discovered in my study of the Bush administration, I literally shuddered on the piece's final note.
For the first time, I recognize the universal truths present in Sweeney Todd:
1. Justice executed by those who use their authority for selfish gain brings ruin to Family, Individual Sanity, Society, and ultimately Itself.
2. A world where Industry rules is Filthy, and Corrupt and Cannibalistic, where previously decent people become Heartless Profiteers.
3. The only way to burst through the degradation of such a world is for good people to hear each other and work towards Shining the Light for All to Recognize the Crimes, so there can be real Justice.
Sounds familiar, eh?
Now, let's keep the ball rolling! Make those calls! Write those emails! Spread the word!
And...
...in time,
Nothing Will Harm Us...
Not If Our Votes are Counted!
COMMENT #19 [Permalink]
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Barbara Bellows-TerraNova
said on 11/2/2007 @ 5:08 pm PT...
P.S. Don't let my praise of Sweeney Todd be seen as an endorsement of the upcoming film directed by Tim Burton, with Johnny Depp. There's reason to believe the meaning of the work may well be lost by the reported overuse of blood. Silly boys.
COMMENT #20 [Permalink]
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papau
said on 11/2/2007 @ 5:12 pm PT...
Brad/John
Brad, you are correct that the bill reads as being in place for 11/08 - I doubt that it is possible after the defeat of Holt and subsequent delay. Indeed in a phone call discussion of our first glance at the bill - my caller and I agreed that the month or more lost in the House meant that the 08 was a fake date and that the sponsor's were aiming for 2010 at best.
We will see if it is real - I hope it is - and there is no doubt that the Senate Bill includes a fix to every problem raised with Holt.
But the game now is to get Feinstein to withdraw her bill in favor of this one (and likewise with any other bill in the Senate to withdraw in favor of this one) and get it passed, then get a bill read, to the floor, and passed in the House, to conference and out, and passed and signed between the end of the Thanksgiving recess and the Xmass recess - because the first due date in the bill is for things to happen by 1/1/08.
It looks to me like a doable but unlikely accomplishment.
You slowed the process down with Holt, and now claim that because the bill says 11/08 start date, that is the date that it will be effective. I assume you have a plan to make it all happen in the shorten period that we now have.
I hope your plan works and you prove me wrong about your killing any 11/08 reform.
Just to restate the facts - I said:
"If Holt had passed we'd now be into conference and preparing for 08 audits - but Brad and others saw "fatal flaws" in Holt - so we will not have audits in 08, and God only knows where this bill is going now that there is no bill coming out of the House. I hope we do have this bill in place for 2012 -but we could have had as much much more easily, and in 08, if Brad and friends had not opposed Holt."
John.
I do not believe this will be in place for 11/08, and I believe the reason will be the killing of Holt. My sense of the Senate was that the GOP were not going to make a 60 vote issue of this - but I could well have been wrong. Passing Holt would have been no guarantee of an 11/08 date - but it would have made it much more likely, in my opinion.
Brad - I hope your analysis of the time needed to get this bill passed and made into law is better than mine - and that indeed no damage was done by killing Holt - but we will not have to wait very long to find out.
COMMENT #21 [Permalink]
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the_zapkitty
said on 11/2/2007 @ 6:09 pm PT...
"... and there is no doubt that the Senate Bill includes a fix to every problem raised with Holt."
... actually, no. Surprised? Somehow, I didn't think you'd be...
The "ban on DRE's after 5 more years" is being used to push all the other bad crap left over from 811 past a supposedly cheering audience.
That the ban is there is good news... the rest of the bill? not so much...
Secret software is still... secret. The supposedly temporary (actually supposedly already defunct) EAC is still permanently empowered as a Federal level election control agency... audits are still fixed % and thus riggable... on and on.. the list is long...
... I should have a full-up comparision in the morning..
... but hey! the easily gamed audits are still Kathy Dopp's audits so we know that the bill already has one built-in cheerleader...
COMMENT #22 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 11/2/2007 @ 7:12 pm PT...
You know, I do so wish we could discuss this stuff without mention of the EAC bit, because every time I think of it my screws not only loosen further but start flying off my head like bullets blasting holes in the walls of my humble abode.
American Freedom Campaign
COMMENT #23 [Permalink]
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the_zapkitty
said on 11/2/2007 @ 7:28 pm PT...
... Upthread, in a somewhat bemused state, I duplexed thusly...
"... as Shumer and Feinstein just caved on unlimited executive power and torture and Feinstein just floated a trial turd in the same direction..."
... that should have read...
"... as Shumer and Feinstein just caved on unlimited executive power and torture and Feingold just floated a trial turd in the same direction..."
... no confusion intended as they're both fein bushies I'm sure...
COMMENT #24 [Permalink]
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Agent 99
said on 11/2/2007 @ 7:44 pm PT...
Well, and you misspelled "Schumer" a bunch of times, too, Zap. Been on the catnip or somethin'?
COMMENT #25 [Permalink]
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the_zapkitty
said on 11/2/2007 @ 7:53 pm PT...
... Agent 99 said...
"You know, I do so wish we could discuss this stuff without mention of the EAC bit, because every time I think of it my screws not only loosen further..."
But with Bush's signing statement over the EAC about to be (supposedly) rendered moot then keeping the EAC is going to be the real centerpiece of any supposed "election reform" bill come hell or high water. The Feds will not turn loose of that power... even with the current litany of disastrous excesses of federal power. (and not all of those are executive branch excesses either)
Remember Brad's report on Hoyer's "Manager's Amendment"? The make-or-break amendment that was supposed to get Holt's Fiasco passed no matter what?
It tried to do that by tossing aside everything that Holt supporters had been keying on... "paper trails", audits... everything that had been used to push the bill was suddenly rendered optional....
... except for two things...
Secret software and the EAC as a permanent federal-level election control agency.
Those were not optional.
... this might indicate to someone what is really important to those inside the Beltway...
... and hint: it's neither paper nor audits.
COMMENT #26 [Permalink]
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the_zapkitty
said on 11/2/2007 @ 8:00 pm PT...
... Agent 99 observed...
"Well, and you misspelled "Schumer" a bunch of times, too, Zap. Been on the catnip or somethin'? "
Worse than that, I'm afraid... politics... and it has murderous hangovers to boot...
COMMENT #27 [Permalink]
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Mark
said on 11/2/2007 @ 8:21 pm PT...
My girlfriend thought up a simple idea on how such a
change could be made, quicker than a total ban. And it
wouldn't garner as much opposition by manufacturers
of the machines. It's simple and it's really effective too.
Just create a new voting law for all states & districts for
ALL elections. One way of voting everywhere, to end all.
Simply create an ATM style touch screen machine that'll
create a paper result. If it isn't correct on paper, then they
can vote again, negating the prior vote, still producing just
one paper. That paper is fed into a scanner that also reads
it as the optical scan machines do now. The papers are all
collected and HAND COUNTED in plain sight, by a panel
with bipartisan representative oversight. This allows them
to have an immediate set of two results. If one of them is
not matching, right away, fraud would be caught.They'll
have a hard time hacking two machines. That result is for
all intents PRELIMINARY. Until the final paper trail count
is in and all three match within a very tight margin of error,
there is no official result. This way you won't have optical
scan theft which is also possible (since results are tabulated
in a computer, so beating touch screens won't stop that) &
you can't have 'stuffed ballot boxes' either. And each voter
gets to verify their vote is as they wanted it to be. The only
possibility of 'fraud' then is for a partisan hack to go in and
say 20-30 vote castings went wrong, but that will be very
easy to catch, if nobody but them has that problem then.
We have the technology for this kind of compromise so
why not use it. Make all manufacturers happy, have no
need EVER for a re-count as each one has that already!
We need to fix this problem in a way the right (ie. those
corporate liberals who want the companies involved in it.)
Furthermore, what a great way to catch fraud. If one of
the touch screen companies is doing fraud, the other two
methods consistently differing is your proof, right there...
Mark D.
COMMENT #28 [Permalink]
...
Brad Friedman
said on 11/2/2007 @ 8:34 pm PT...
Papau said at #20, the same thing she said (with only slight modification) at Democratic Underground here, to which I responded here.
If you'd be kind enough to have this conversation in one of the two places, it would be much appreciated. But since you resposted here, I'll re-reply here by copying my comments from DU right here...
Papau said:
there is no doubt that the Senate Bill includes a fix to every problem raised with Holt.
Not sure which bill *your* reading, but many of the existing problems with Holt are still in Nelson's updated version. Example: Non-disclosure requirements are still built into Nelson's version so that only so-called "experts" may review the software used on voting systems.
You slowed the process down with Holt...
You're welcome.
...and now claim that because the bill says 11/08 start date, that is the date that it will be effective. I assume you have a plan to make it all happen in the shorten period that we now have.
I made no such "claim", nor do I have any such "plan to make it all happen" because as I see it, there are big problems with the Nelson bill as it's currently written. Starting (but not ending) with the fact that DREs will be allowed for '08. Coupled with audits, that could be the death knell for paper based voting systems, as you well know.
I hope your plan works and you prove me wrong about your killing any 11/08 reform.
Kathy, I have no idea what you're talking about. If you are imagining some "plan" I have for the Nelson bill, your imagination is failing you again. Even if it were passed as is tomorrow, and even if the Holt bill was changed in conference to match it, it would still be a) a dangerous bill and b) not funded unless it's included in the '08 appropriations which are ongoing write now. Otherwise, a supplemental would have to be passed in appropriations to pay for it.
That said, it still has most of the previous failings of the Holt bill which became much worse throughout the compromise/committee process.
"If Holt had passed we'd now be into conference and preparing for 08 audits - but Brad and others saw "fatal flaws" in Holt - so we will not have audits in 08, and God only knows where this bill is going now that there is no bill coming out of the House. I hope we do have this bill in place for 2012 -but we could have had as much much more easily, and in 08, if Brad and friends had not opposed Holt."
Once again, as seems now a regular occurrence with you, Kathy, your imagination is getting the better of you.
If you think my pointing out known fatal flaws in the bill has kept up from having "audits in 08", you must be in even more of a dreamland than I suspected.
Again, if you're looking for an "enemy" and someone to blame for the split in the EI movement, I'd suggest you take a look at PFAW her single-handedly hijacked the bill to ensure that DREs would be allowed for use. Forever.
Had they not done that, and had folks like you not believed and passed on their nonsense (I've got plenty of email from you to prove it) that "nobody in Congress supports a DRE ban" when we now know definitely that many do, we might have been able to march forward TOGETHER, in support of a bill that wouldn't make us worse off than we are now, as Holt's bill would.
COMMENT #29 [Permalink]
...
Brad Friedman
said on 11/2/2007 @ 8:45 pm PT...
Mark #27. As your comment is a repost from your comment at DU, I'll repost my reply to that one here...
===
You've got some good ideas mixed in with some not so good.
The largest not-so-good is using "ATM style touch machines" for a number of reasons. Some of which I mentioned in an earlier post at DU, but will repost the key parts of for you here:
If you're unfamiliar with the studies, you should probably give them a look. No time to go get 'em now but...
a) MIT/Caltech found that over 80% of voters don't check their "paper trails" (as you'd have with a touch-screen Ballot Marking Device).
b) Rice University found that two-thirds of voters don't notice vote-flips in front of their face on a touch-screen machine, much less on the little paper that's printed with it.
c) Brennan Center showed exactly how to hack those machines in such a way that you could flip an election and no audit, not even 100% manual audit, would be able to find the hack.
...
And one more for ya...there is no way that I can look at those ballots and know that they represent the voter intent. None. Nada. Can't happen.
COMMENT #30 [Permalink]
...
Mark
said on 11/2/2007 @ 9:06 pm PT...
Good points. I didn't consider that. Well how about this one here? Eliminate the ATM, and go with scanning machines. But just have a mandatory recount by hand of scanned ballots, in each place.
But with one caveat. Allow ATM style machines for those who will
view the paper result and verify it. The disabled who may not be
able to darken in the squares on a scanner type ballot. The idea
is the machine is just there to help those who need it, and not
a source of a vote count. And still, only the paper count will
be the final result. The scan machine will only be preliminary.
My concern is we beat the touch screens, but scanners are little
better, if they can be flipped in computers. They can't flip paper
in a computer. And EVERY election will have it's recount already.
No slowing it down for a later count, calling in people in what is
a haphazard way to count paper. It will be part of the process,
and we will all have to wait for it. A little more time is fair trade
for a fair election where votes count and are not stolen away.
COMMENT #31 [Permalink]
...
abacus
said on 11/3/2007 @ 12:54 am PT...
Mark - # 30
What I like about this is, if we do a hand count we don't need the scanners at all...
Dennis Kucinich posted a bill in the last Congress to have the 2008 elections for President conducted solely by hand count...
No trouble gearing up in time for the election, better accuracy than machine systems, lower cost, no trouble training poll workers...
So sensible it hasn't got a chance
COMMENT #32 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 11/3/2007 @ 3:25 am PT...
Isn't 2012 the year the Mayans say the world will end ... or something to that effect?
The EI movement better hurry if it is going to save the world again. It has a good record of doing that since ... oh well ... nobody will believe that.
The DemoCons a la Zell Miller have allowed another fascist to come over and lie to them a la Gonzo.
Mukcasey the waterboard meister denier will be the new "purtektur of amurka".
And we wonder why over 6 billion people think America is worse than ... well ... take your pick.
The Mayans could be the only ones right left ...
COMMENT #33 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 11/3/2007 @ 4:13 am PT...
The term "destruction of civilization" does not mean the destruction of anything other than civility.By civilization I mean a pattern of decent behavior.
The loss of it brings up the spectre of the return of barbarianism and the loss of decency. Might makes right will be the wisdom then.
The current oil-surges and the ongoing oil war in Iraq coupled with the "destroy the muslims" rhetoric of the old line crusaders seems to be the vessel that is taking us down the road.
Stalin got rid of every voting system except paper ballots, but still had to kill millions of his own people to "prove his point".
As nations prepare to prove their point and western and eastern civilization approach 2012, which could be the year oil reaches $500 a barrel, only those who have invaded oil patch to steal and hoard their oil can remain empires.
But who can think of any decent empires in history that should be the model for society? And when you make your choice, which one still survives?
The true zealots of the EI movement may even begin to believe that ridding the world of the DRE by 2012 is the only way to save the world.
Hey, your method of grasping at straws is just as good as mine is.
COMMENT #34 [Permalink]
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the_zapkitty
said on 11/3/2007 @ 8:39 am PT...
I'll be putting the version comparison up on blackboxvoting.org in a few minutes but here's the short version: same ol' same ol'...
Some details including further exposition on the EAC's role in the DRE ban debate:
Nelson's original bill, S. 559, was nigh-identical to Holt's original version with a couple of improvements added. Chiefest among those was a secret software ban.
Holt's originally flawed bill went downhill fast from there... as has been noted here... often...
The version of s.559 posted above is the senate compromise to HR 811...
.... senate... compromise...
... yep...
... they caved on almost every important point and now s.559 is almost as bad as Holt 811's last known version. Including mandates for corporate trade secrets runnin our elections.
The eventual DRE ban in 2012 was tossed in as a sop to the rabble... (we is teh rabble ) ... but as Brad noted this was actually a fatal error on someone's part in that it does show the "no-DRE-ban-possible" lies for what they are... lies.
But as DRE's are needed as an excuse to prop up the federal-level centralized power grab that is the EAC... any attempt to ban DRE's immediately will fail unless the legislators are told outright that they can't have that power.
Yes, it's still the same old story... but apparently they figure that four years of the states asking the feds "Mother may I?" for federal permission to pass laws in order to run state elections and four years of the fed's being required to certify state elections will be enough to cement the power grab and let it take permanent hold...
... as for those who (rightfully) want DRE's banned now?
It won't happen unless you get the legislators to finally sunset the EAC as it was supposed to be and fold what work it actually needs to do back into the proper agencies...
... but they won't do that.
There's no reason for them not to do that... not since Holt and company are still lying about the power grab even on their web sites... but they won't do it.
They still need DRE's to justify the EAC, and even though the EAC was a Republican power grab the Democratic feds will not turn loose of it.
Unless they are made to let go of it by the... "uneducated American voters"... (...a purported quote from Holt)
COMMENT #35 [Permalink]
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DerekLarsson
said on 11/3/2007 @ 2:21 pm PT...
I'm not sure why it takes 5 whole years (2012) to outlaw plainly defective machines.
Perhaps, because that far out, there will then be the time to replace them with some new voting technologies (not yet developed) that are just as bad or worse - yet won't be suspected because "they're not DREs".
Paper ballot is the only hope that we have for having honest Elections in this Country. Not "paper trails". Not "paper receipts". But true paper ballot.
We should be focusing on End-To-End Transparency.
That is the issue.
Once any part of the voting process is under the control of a closed-system (such as Centralized Precinct Tabulation Systems), then you have necessarily a black-box outcome that clearly cannot be trusted.
We need the Congress to establish Paper-Ballot, publically monitored, end-to-end open and transparant Elections.
If we cannot do that, then we are simply not a free society.
COMMENT #36 [Permalink]
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Big Dan
said on 11/4/2007 @ 9:20 am PT...
Is THIS just as important? Remember in California that bill the GOP was trying to pass to cut up California electoral votes so they could steal some? The GOP only proposed it in California? Not any Red States? And it got shot down?
Well here is the bill REDUX...they're not giving up!
http://www.nytimes.com/2...rtner=rssnyt&emc=rss
There will never be another Democratic president if this goes through...forget about e-vote machines, they wouldn't need them! The GOP isn't giving up on this in California! This is the surprise way they will win the 2008 presidential election!
COMMENT #37 [Permalink]
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Barbara Bellows-TerraNova
said on 11/4/2007 @ 9:39 am PT...
A much improved version of my Comment #18 above is now available here
(http://oneperson-knowmore.blogspot.com/2007/11/glory-be-on-all-saints-day.html)
COMMENT #38 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 11/5/2007 @ 5:00 am PT...
The best voting machines a corrupt empire can provide ... that is what the EI movement is for?
Or paper ballots a la Stalin?
Either way when you have a corrupt empire and focus on the vote as the salvation of the empire ... well you have a purple finger up your DRE ...
COMMENT #39 [Permalink]
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the_zapkitty
said on 11/5/2007 @ 6:06 am PT...
I've been reviewing the various versions of Holt's Fiasco and related discussions (finally!) and the following unclear phrasing in my comment #34 belatedly lept out at me
... the_zapkitty said on 11/3/2007 @ 8:39 am PT... "... states asking the feds "Mother may I?" for federal permission to pass laws in order to run state elections and four years of the fed's being required to certify state elections..."
... I'm of course referring to the federal-level elections held by the states and the EAC's sudden controlling interest in them via Holt's Fiasco...
... although...
... the necessities of expensive e-voting means that the EAC mandates will perforce severely impact state and municipal elections as well even without the EAC asserting primacy in governing local result certification...
... sigh... all this unneeded crap in a vain attempt to prevent another external intervention ala 2000...
News for Holt and company: that's not how they played the game in the first place.
Go ahead. Centralize control. They'll be laughing every step of the way while extorting ever-more massive concessions from Pelosi and Reid in the name of "bipartisanship"...
... and then? Why then they'll have centralized control of elections...
Holt and company... you're not helping here.
COMMENT #40 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 11/5/2007 @ 3:52 pm PT...
I hope you win the argument between yourselves zap ... meanwhile, the hottest new blog in the blogosphere is BIG DAN's BIG BLOG ... "when the revolution comes" that is where I will be.