On today’s BradCast, I’m back! And with huge thanks to Nicole Sandler of the awesome RadioOrNot.com for filling in for me and Desi over the holidays to help us get some some much-needed time off!
First up on today’s show: President Obama announces his Executive Actions to combat the scourge of gun violence in this country.
Then, I’m joined by Stewart Rhodes, Founder and President of Oath Keepers, a group which describes itself as “a non-partisan association of current and formerly serving military, police, and first responders, who pledge to fulfill the oath all military and police take to ‘defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.'”
While the Oath Keepers were on the front lines of the armed 2014 standoff against the federal government at the Bundy Ranch in Nevada, Rhodes has declined to join the ongoing armed take-over of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns, Oregon by other members of the so-called “Patriot Movement,” including two of rancher Cliven Bundy’s sons.
Rhodes explains how he believes the showdown at the Bundy Ranch differs from the current situation at Malheur. He claims the former resulted in stopping the “assassination” of the Bundy clan by federal officials, whereas, in the latter case, “I haven’t seen any direct threat to anybody’s life.”
He describes one of the men holed up in the federal Oregon facility as “either insane or an agent provocateur who…wants to see violence,” and another as a “loose cannon idiot who has a martyr complex.” He suggests that Bundy’s son Ammon, who helped lead the takeover in Oregon, is “naive” and “has people right there with him who are unstable, who may initiate violence.”
“They want to go down in a glorious firefight,” Rhodes warns about at least two of the individuals. “If they don’t get that, it’s entirely possible they might initiate it.” And while the other Bundy son, Ryan, has reportedly said he was “willing to kill and be killed if necessary,” in the stand-off, Rhodes rejects the idea that the men are “terrorists”.
I also pressed Rhodes about critiques of his own organization, which has been described as “conspiracy theorists”, “vigilantes”, “rightwing extremists” and even “racists” at various times. Many have accused them and others in the Patriot and Militia Movements of looking to pick fights with the federal Government. I ask him why his group and others like it didn’t come to the aid of the Occupy Movement when those peaceful protests were brutally crushed by local, state and federal officials back in 2011 and why they haven’t been louder in opposition to the ongoing epidemic of police violence across the country.
We also discussed the claims made in a Rolling Stone feature article this week, charging that former Oath Keeper Sam Andrews was drummed out of the group for attempting to organize with African-Americans in Ferguson, MO. Rhodes calls Andrews a “liar”.
As to the Bundys, Rhodes claims the family took advantage of his group back in 2014. “We didn’t go there to get cattle back. We went there to keep the Bundy family from being murdered. They then took advantage of that situation and went and got their cattle back,” he tells me. “They didn’t say ‘come help us with armed supporters to go get our cattle back’. That’s not what they did. They said ‘we’re about to be murdered, come protect us’. And so Ammon Bundy has displayed the propensity to deceive people. And he’s doing that right now [in Oregon.]”
There was a lot more in our spirited conversation — we both agree, for example, about the outrage of “minimum sentencing” laws of the type at the center of the current dispute up in Oregon right now, as well as at the heart of the so-called “Drug War” — but you’ll have to give the full show a listen for complete details…
Download MP3 or listen to complete show online below…
[audio:http://bradblog.com/audio/BradCast_BradFriedman_ObamaGunsAction_StewartRhodesORStandoff_010516.mp3%5D
The most troubling feature is the government’s reluctance to put a swift end to this. Can you imagine what would occur if people of color carried out what, in this case, amounts to armed insurrection against the U.S. government?
Ernesto @ 1:
I think I may have to disagree with you (mostly) on both of your points above.
If the government were to “put a swift end to this”, it’d likely end in bloodshed and/or worse, a Waco type incident. That only works well for occupiers.
As to what would likely happen if the occupiers were not white, armed, militiamen, I agree, the tactics were probably be very different. That said, it doesn’t mean that those tactics would be BETTER. It doesn’t mean the government should use violent tactics (ala those type of tactics that you and both objected to when they were used against the Occupy Movement.)
In other words, yes, there is a double-standard here. But, no, I don’t think the way to even the standard is to use the worst of the two choices.
In truth, we’ll see, but completely ignoring them, turning off power to the facility, keep a perimeter far away from it so nobody can go in or out, make them feel isolated and alone, is probably the best way to get them to eventually come out on their own. Starving, cold, and ready to be taken into federal custody.
i recently read that the iowa caucuses are introducing an electronic spreadsheet to help keep track of caucus results
the electronic spreadsheet is the ultimate blackbox
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141299052
we need to keep track of this
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brad,bev,jeanie dean…heads up
Interesting interview. Could have gone off the rails but didn’t. Nice job.
Thanks, Larry. Yes, that was a tricky line to walk. Tried not to fall off in either direction. Glad to hear it sounds like I didn’t!
I have great respect for Patrick Shea. He was the national director of the Bureau of Land Management under Clinton in 1997. He was also Tim DeChristopher’s lawyer here in Utah.
I can’t find the exact quotes, but although he realizes things are very difficult for some ranchers in the west, he said he would like to see the president release the Hammond’s from serving any more time for the arson, I imagine to diffuse that part of the matter, and sort of let the whole thing fizzle out, but it’s starting to look like that’s what’s happening anyway.
After that, I think these dudes should face some serious charges for waving their guns around.
Here’s my Pulitzer Prize winning photo, (not really), of Tim DeChristopher and his lawyer on the day Tim got convicted of a possible ten year sentence in prison. All the “newspapers” and television “news” were falling all over themselves to say they’d been right all along and made sure the public saw DeChristopher as a sad loser.
Somebody at the protest in front of the courthouse handed me a huge sign that said “Bidder 70” so I had to hold that and my camera when I took this picture. 🙂
Tim a had fixed trial, just as the Bundy group says the Hammond’s did, but Tim ended up spending about 2 years in prison and some of that in solitary confinement.
Justice?
Plus; Tim DeChristopher never planned or hoped to make a dime off his effort to prevent precious Utah lands from being exploited by a last minute, illegal, grab for cash before George W. Bush left office. In fact he knew he would have to pay.
So I’m just saying: I’m waiting to see if these raucous “cowboys” are going to have to even show any penitence for their gun-slinging in Oregon.
Wish I could have been at this earlier protest in Salt Lake City, before the conviction.
Larry –
Now that you mention it, these guys really are the anti-DeChristopher, aren’t they?
Wonder how he feels about all of this. Hmmm…
And that IS a great photo!!
You’re exactly right Brad. DeChristopher was trying to save what’s left of the unspoiled earth, and help save the planet, knowing he would have to pay.
They will never admit it, but these people, right on up to the governor want to use states rights as a way to get wealthy off the land. It’s a very old battle around here. Governor Herbert was embarrassed about the previous Bundy episode. I haven’t heard him say anything this time, but I’m sure he’d rather handle things a little differently.
I saw DeChristopher speak at a Bernie Sanders event here a couple of months ago. It’s a travesty that he had to spend two years in prison while these idiots are going to be just fine.
I took some other pictures the day he got convicted.