READER COMMENTS ON
"WALKER, MOST OTHER REPUBS REPORTEDLY SURVIVE WISCONSIN RECALL ELECTIONS"
(46 Responses so far...)
COMMENT #1 [Permalink]
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Jean
said on 6/6/2012 @ 1:30 am PT...
Brad, there's something SERIOUSLY WRONG with the Wisconsin vote!
It was called WAY TOO FAST!
There were late voters. They ran out of new voter registration forms and ballots. It couldn't have ended so quickly.
Someone knew how to do this.
And by the way, the Waukesha County Clerk was there, too ...... again.
COMMENT #2 [Permalink]
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kafantaris
said on 6/6/2012 @ 1:58 am PT...
Yes, Walker survived by a landslide, but he also galvanized the democrats. He even put a dent in the Tea Party.
The net effect of this on the national level is more significant than the politics of Wisconsin.
COMMENT #3 [Permalink]
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Andy
said on 6/6/2012 @ 4:08 am PT...
I think BOTH exit polls were accurate. My impression was that there were big lines of very motivated people who got to the polls and waited in line for them to open. I think that number of very motivated people were probably skewed against Walker.
However, when I went to the polls in mid-afternoon, though there were people going in and out, there was no line at all, and I live in Madison.
Had the initial volume held up, we would have been looking at record-breaking turnout volume, which boded for a near tie or a Barrett win. Instead, it seems like that turnout volume tailed off significantly, and we wound up with turnout above last election, but below the numbers needed to close the gap from rural areas. And well below presidential turnout numbers from 2004 and 2008.
This election was about money drowning out the truth, plain and simple. At least the Senate flipped due to good turnout in Racine county.
COMMENT #4 [Permalink]
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Steve
said on 6/6/2012 @ 4:43 am PT...
There was an election, and the Dems lost. There was a vote, so they left the State. There was a recall, and they lost again. I suppose it is easier to pretend you just somehow magically got screwed, but there really is an alternative. At some point you could put on your big boy pants, man up, and say "We lost." Hey, it happens. They called the Republicans the "Party of No" only to become the party of no show. Learn your lesson, lefties. People want their politicians to act like adults.
COMMENT #5 [Permalink]
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Nunyabiz
said on 6/6/2012 @ 5:21 am PT...
I can only hope that Walker completely destroys Wisconsin, destroys all unions in Wis, Unemployment up to 11+%, close schools, you name it. Total destruction.
Because there are only 2 possibilities here.
Either this election was out right STOLEN through election fraud by totally unverifiable voting machines, (most likely IMO) OR the majority of people in Wisconsin are stupid beyond belief and deserve what they just did to themselves.
Personally I do not believe that 36% of Union Members and 17% of Obama supporters voted for Walker. They most likely switched votes which we all know is so easily done they could have had someones 8 year old do it on a laptop.
They probably made it a landslide so that Democrats would not want a recount or investigate.
There is no way in hell Walker won by a landslide.
COMMENT #6 [Permalink]
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Marzi
said on 6/6/2012 @ 5:22 am PT...
I don't believe the outcome - we'll see who reports irregularities next. Walker was not well-liked for obvious reasons.
COMMENT #7 [Permalink]
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molly
said on 6/6/2012 @ 5:42 am PT...
Hard to see positives in what looks like another stolen election. The only one that I can think of is Occupy Wall Street is gaining momentum out of frustration with our phony election system and phony media.
From the 14 points of fascism.
14. Fraudulent elections
Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating and disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.
NOTE: The above 14 Points was written in 2004 by Dr. Laurence Britt, a political scientist. Dr. Britt studied the fascist regimes of: Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile).
COMMENT #8 [Permalink]
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Mugsy
said on 6/6/2012 @ 5:50 am PT...
So let me get this straight...
With only the electronic votes in, they (within an hour) show Walker with a "20% lead" that Barret must now spend the rest of the night catching up to, but as the night wains and the PAPER ballots are tabulated, the race narrows as counts show Barret receiving more votes than Walker in most precincts?
Add to that Exit Polling showing the race closer to "50/50"?
If THAT isn't suspicious enough to attract attention, I don't know what is.
COMMENT #9 [Permalink]
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JimCT
said on 6/6/2012 @ 5:58 am PT...
Hey Steve, your "adult" may be indicted soon.
As far as the election is concerned, it's true $50 or so million buys a lot of stupid, and many people out there are to lazy to check facts or avoid falling into the divide and conquer trap. But until we start sample checking a random machine in each precinct by hand, there's no reason to trust the accuracy of any similarly tallied election results.
COMMENT #10 [Permalink]
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Ishmael
said on 6/6/2012 @ 6:38 am PT...
COMMENT #11 [Permalink]
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Mona
said on 6/6/2012 @ 6:39 am PT...
Just bummed about this whole mess.
COMMENT #12 [Permalink]
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Davey Crocket
said on 6/6/2012 @ 7:09 am PT...
I can appreciate the emotion on the losing side of this outcome. Emotions tend to lead to irrational mental processes which I suspect are at the root of the "stolen election" and "may or may not" language.
It appears that Walker was first elected on an agenda he put forward. He was subjected to a recall by sore losers that rejected the democratic process that put him in office. The state government was put on hold by legislators who left the state rather than do the hard work of legislating. I doubt any of this made Wisconsin any better...especially after spending all the money for two recall elections.
I do not understand people like Nunyabiz who wants to see Wisconsin destroyed because his/her side lost. That is just great. Moreover, I read tweets calling for the death of Scott Walker. Simply amazing.
Some are posting that the election was stolen. I suspect not. If Obama thought that Barrett had a chance of winning, he would have gotten behind him in a serious way rather than the tepid tweet he offered. Obama most likely has internal polling numbers and new that Walker would win, so he ducked this one to save his own upcoming election. All but two polls had Walker trouncing Barrett. The results fell in line with the average of these polls.
Regarding out of state influences...it happens all the time on both sides. Is it a good thing? Probably not, but there is no sense in whirrrring about it.
The Democrats will get another chance at the next election, but for now, move on and put this one behind you. The sun will rise tomorrow.
COMMENT #13 [Permalink]
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Nunyabiz
said on 6/6/2012 @ 7:45 am PT...
The let me enlighten you on how I see it.
I want Wisconsin destroyed because if this election was not stolen and the money is what "won" this, and that many people are THAT stupid then I wan them to suffer and suffer badly so they can think about how stupid they are for voting wildly against their own best interest like a bunch of idiots.
That way next time they might pay attention when something as blatantly obvious as how crooked and vile Walker and the Tpublicans are slap them in the face.
They might just take the 5 minutes it would have taken to get informed instead of sitting back like some fat happy pig in slop waddling on up the slaughter house with a big red neon sign on the front that reads:
"Stop! you dumb fat pig this a slaughter house, one more step and you will die"
That is literally how blatant the Tpublicans were in their agenda to destroy the state, the unions etc.
So I hope they either get exactly what they voted for OR if it was stolen they wake up and get informed and the only way that will happen is a wake up call of pain and suffering that is self inflicted.
COMMENT #14 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 6/6/2012 @ 7:47 am PT...
Davey Crockett--
What part of error-prone easy to hack electronic voting machines which make it impossible to know with any certainty if election results are accurate/valid or not, do you not understand?
Or are you just gonna come right out and say that you know all that but you prefer faith-based elections?
COMMENT #15 [Permalink]
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WingnutSteve
said on 6/6/2012 @ 8:34 am PT...
I agree with David Lasagna. There's something very fishy about John Lehman winning that senate seat which (all night long) seemed to be in the bag for the Republican. I'm quite sure the squeaky wheel is looking into that and I expect a hard hitting piece asking the tough questions at any moment.
COMMENT #16 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 6/6/2012 @ 8:35 am PT...
I received the following email message from WI State Sen. Mark Miller (D):
COMMENT #17 [Permalink]
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Davey Crocket
said on 6/6/2012 @ 8:36 am PT...
Nunyabiz @13
Thank you, I feel enlightened.
David @14
Your question was imbedded with a premise that I do not accept, so it is impossible to answer your question.
If the election can be shown to be stolen, then I would support having the true winner take office.
There are plenty of interests that would like to prove that the election was stolen (including your BFF Brad), so let those do their diligence to find out for sure. Until then, I am going to believe that it was a fair election. That is not an unreasonable position to take--pretty rational.
COMMENT #18 [Permalink]
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fibait
said on 6/6/2012 @ 8:36 am PT...
COMMENT #19 [Permalink]
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ewastud
said on 6/6/2012 @ 8:44 am PT...
The picture at the to of this post looks rather curious to me. The African-American youths are unsmiling and look like props. I would love to know the story behind it and how that picture got taken and by whom. Can you say anything about that, Brad?
COMMENT #20 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 6/6/2012 @ 8:58 am PT...
The people of Wisconsin may not realize it yet, but they may have just elected Rebecca Kleefisch (R) to serve the balance of Scott Walker’s term.
There is a growing body of evidence that Walker’s former Deputy Chief of Staff Tim Russell will tell all about Walker’s criminal complicity in the John Doe investigation to avoid a lengthy stay in prison --- just as I originally predicted when I first covered the investigation.
COMMENT #21 [Permalink]
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Madison VOICES
said on 6/6/2012 @ 10:39 am PT...
You are right, Ernest, and you are pointing out a HUGE failure of our media. Walker IS JOHN DOE.
His closest aide, tied to every other charged crime, is now squealing.
The media has protected walker, catapulted his lies uncritically, and used the content from his bogus ads to frame the news.
Now they desperately want us to forget all this "John Doe" stuff so when Walker gets arrested, they can say, "GEEE, WHO WOULD HAVE KNOWN!"
More than anything else, this is a MEDIA failure and no positive change is possible until we take back the media.
COMMENT #22 [Permalink]
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Rick H.
said on 6/6/2012 @ 10:43 am PT...
“If Lehman wins, it will be the first time in history that a recall flips the majority party in a state legislature.”
JSOnline:
Joshua Spivak, a national expert on recalls, said a flip in the Wisconsin Senate would represent only the fifth time in American history that a recall upended control of a state legislative chamber. The other times, he wrote on his Recall Elections blog, were Michigan in 1983, California twice in 1995, and Wisconsin in 1996. Two other recall efforts failed to reverse control, one in Washington in 1981 and the other one last year in Wisconsin.
http://www.jsonline.com/...s-8i5mapa-157488605.html
http://recallelections.b...tory-democrats-take.html
COMMENT #23 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 6/6/2012 @ 12:13 pm PT...
note to Ernie--
You posted a comment on the previous thread in response to wingnut and davey that you meant to post on this thread.
COMMENT #24 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 6/6/2012 @ 12:27 pm PT...
Davey Crocket @ 17
Your response and non-answer to my question--
What part of error-prone easy to hack electronic voting machines which make it impossible to know with any certainty if election results are accurate/valid or not, do you not understand?
--makes no sense.
The whole point of this post, a gazillion other pieces by Brad, and my question to you is that there is no way to know who won or lost when we use unaudited machines.
So, how the hell would anyone "prove" that an election was stolen or not when currently there is no way to do that?
You aren't making sense. So I disagree--you're not being reasonable or rational.
COMMENT #25 [Permalink]
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KatieB
said on 6/6/2012 @ 12:39 pm PT...
I think it's more likely a comment on the state of politics in general. The working class in Wisconsin is, by and large, attracted to the right-wing "populism" offered up by these so-called "tea party" candidates. Let's face facts.
Why, you might ask? Why do they vote against their own self interests? I think it's because they hate "liberals" (meaning the snooty elites in power who are always mocking them, calling them stupid and who, come on, abandoned the working classes long ago). Also it's because they hate unions (who, let's face it, also largely abandoned the working classes in pursuit of power and money long ago).
So, yes, it's a bummer. But the sooner we disassociate our left-leaning movements from the democratic party and their union backers, the better. Our prosperity will not be brought by them. I'm sick of the "lesser of two evils" argument. Obama has given us just about the worst possible outcome. At least with Mitt Romney maybe people will stand up and fight against the growing fascism in this country rather than wring their hands as apologists in denial for the total betrayal they've been subject to over recent years. Every day it seems brings a new outrage, from kill lists and random drone killings, to indefinite detention. From "free speech zones" to the TSA to the medical MJ raids.
I consider myself to be pretty far left on the political spectrum (live and let live and all), but I feel a deep futility in voting these days (though I still do vote for what it's worth). Both parties are essentially carrying out the same agenda. How does that quote go? "If voting actually changed anything they'd make it illegal."
It would be far better to understand and show some respect for these people outside of Madison who voted for Walker so we can build a movement for us all than to try to tear them down. The Koch brothers only have such great opportunity to enrich themselves further because we as a people are so deeply divided.
I voted for Obama 2008 and I realize my error now. Was McCain better? Heck no. But at least I can admit I was duped and say I won't be making the same mistake twice. Will I vote for Romney? No thanks. Neither of the dominant parties represent the interests of me or my family.
Could this election have been outright stolen? I suppose so, but the way our elections are currently run prevents us from ever really knowing.
COMMENT #26 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 6/6/2012 @ 12:54 pm PT...
Davey Crocket @17-
What's the premise in my question that you do not accept? Do you not accept that our voting machines are error-prone and easy to hack?
COMMENT #27 [Permalink]
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KatieB
said on 6/6/2012 @ 1:01 pm PT...
I wouldn't hold my breath for Walker's indictment. As much as I hope he would be held accountable for any crimes he's committed, the US justice system works differently for those of us with access to large sums of money. I suspect the wheels of justice in this case will continue to move along as slow as ever.
COMMENT #28 [Permalink]
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Marybeth Kuznik
said on 6/6/2012 @ 1:28 pm PT...
Last night felt a lot like November 2, 2004 to me. Not because the results seem wrong this time (they may or they may not be, as Brad points out) but because once again we were treated to the horrid spectacle of the media calling an election while long lines of people were still waiting to vote.
As one of the nine Regional Coordinators for the 2004 Ohio Recount, I spent December of that year on the ground in the Buckeye State. There I had the sad privilege of meeting many of the Ohio voters who went through this same disgrace in the huge 2004 Presidential election. I left Ohio with a renewed commitment to doing everything I can to see that every vote is counted, every time, in EVERY election.
Each vote is precious. Regardless of whether or not somebody thinks it will change the results of an election or not, each vote represents some citizen's voice. Each vote is some person's one opportunity to participate and be heard. If we do not respect each vote, by at the very least waiting until it is cast before we count it in or out, how can we as a society ever claim to respect the citizen behind it?
Regardless of all the problems with counting our votes, and regardless of all the problems with our elections in general, there can be no reason --- ever --- to call an election before each and every vote is cast.
COMMENT #29 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 6/6/2012 @ 1:29 pm PT...
David Lasagna @ 23 wrote:
You posted a comment on the previous thread in response to wingnut and davey that you meant to post on this thread.
You are correct David. Mea culpa!
Here’s the relevant post:
Of course, Brad then went on to write the relevant post re Lehman’s “premature” victory claim, which WingnutSteve then seamlessly applauded without so much as a reference to his earlier sarcasm.
COMMENT #30 [Permalink]
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Madison VOICES
said on 6/6/2012 @ 1:36 pm PT...
I share your concerns, Katie, and have more on that here:
Scott Walker & Cronies: Too Big To Jail? Can Our System of Justice Hold Powerful GOPers Accountable?
But 15 felonies so far, 13 people with immunity, walker and his media cronies spinning furiously, and timmy russell (tied to EACH AND EVERY indictment so far - 15 felonies and 3 misdemeanors that should have been felonies) does mean someone is going down eventually.
Timmy is reportedly squealin' like a pig. Walker threw him under the bus and now this thievin' pig's back is to the wall.
I understand and accept your skeptism, but please don't let the media snooker you - there is some serious criminality here and WALKER IS JOHN DOE!
COMMENT #31 [Permalink]
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Davey Crocket
said on 6/6/2012 @ 1:38 pm PT...
David #26
1) Error-prone: you are saying that the electronic voting machines are more likely to make an error than not.
2) Easy to hack: if I understand "easy" then anybody can do it.
On (1) I believe that electronic voting machines can make errors. I do not believe that they are more likely to make errors than not.
On (2) I believe that all stored program computers from micros to mainframes can be hacked. There are various levels of difficulty to hacking a computer. Moreover, I believe they have been hacked in the past. Don't know about this election.
I am not against hand counting. But, elections were stolen when hand-counting was the norm.
Will all of the emotion surrounding this election, I suspect that in November we will see a run on xanax.
COMMENT #32 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 6/6/2012 @ 2:36 pm PT...
Davey Crocket @ 31--
I am not saying, as you say I am, that "electronic voting machines are more likely to make an error than not." I am saying what I'm saying which is that electronic voting machines are error-prone. Prone means--having a tendency or inclination.
If you agree that electronic voting machines make errors, that's close enough for me in the context of this discussion. And if you agree that machines can be hacked, that's close enough, too.
Both of those opinions were ones that I thought you already held which is why I didn't understand your comment @12 which from the get-go seemed to ignore these facts and go off on secondary(to the initial post's) points. That's what my initial comment objected to--you were talking like the main point Brad was making was nowhere to be seen and that he was saying something entirely different than what he was saying.
A lot of that going around these days.
COMMENT #33 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 6/6/2012 @ 4:30 pm PT...
The issue, Davey Crocket @31, is transparency.
If you’d bothered to follow Brad’s link to Democracy’s Gold Standard, you would learn why the German high court ruled that e-voting (either 100% unverifiable DRE touch screens or optical scan systems), are unacceptable under that nation’s constitution:
That court’s landmark findings were:
• "No 'specialized technical knowledge' can be required of citizens to vote or to monitor vote counts."
• There is a "constitutional requirement of a publicly observed count."
• "[T]he government substitution of its own check or what we’d probably call an 'audit' is no substitute at all for public observation."
• "A paper trail simply does not suffice to meet the above standards.
• "As a result of these principles,...'all independent observers' conclude that 'electronic voting machines are totally banned in Germany' because no conceivable computerized voting system can cast and count votes that meet the twin requirements of...being both 'observable' and also not requiring specialized technical knowledge."
Contrary to your suggestion, election integrity has absolutely nothing to do with "the emotion surrounding this election."
It has to do with the fundamental prerequisite that democracy requires that citizens know in every election that the individual who is declared the winner actually received the most votes. Nothing more; nothing less!
COMMENT #34 [Permalink]
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Davey Crocket
said on 6/6/2012 @ 4:51 pm PT...
EC@31,
I am perfectly content with transparency. Did I say otherwise?
The "emotions" comment was essentially a postscript about the election. Had nothing to do with hand count, machine count, or any of the mechanics of the vote. Sorry I introduced some confusion on that point.
David @32
We probably reached harmonic convergence.
COMMENT #35 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 6/6/2012 @ 5:53 pm PT...
DaveyCrockett said @ 12:
Regarding out of state influences...it happens all the time on both sides.
Really? Where has anything like this ever happened on "both sides"?
I'd love to know. I suspect you'll be no help, however.
COMMENT #36 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 6/6/2012 @ 5:55 pm PT...
Ewastud @ 19:
The picture at the to of this post looks rather curious to me. The African-American youths are unsmiling and look like props. I would love to know the story behind it and how that picture got taken and by whom. Can you say anything about that, Brad?
Not much. But I do love it. It was tweeted some days ago w/o attribution. Here is the full size pic. (I cropped it a bit for use in the story above.)
COMMENT #37 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 6/6/2012 @ 5:58 pm PT...
Davey Crockett @ 31 said:
I am not against hand counting. But, elections were stolen when hand-counting was the norm.
When has fully public, precinct based hand-counting ever been "the norm"? Or are you simply making things up again? Like your unsubstantiated "both sides do it" argument above?
COMMENT #38 [Permalink]
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Davey Crocket
said on 6/6/2012 @ 6:22 pm PT...
Brad@35
Yup, $100 came from me...from Texas.
Was there a law broken?
Brad @37
OK, "fully public, precinct based hand-counting" was never the norm. YOU WIN!
"Like your unsubstantiated "both sides do it" argument above? "
COMMENT #39 [Permalink]
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AlexWolf
said on 6/6/2012 @ 6:26 pm PT...
"That starts with the vote, and it should end with "Democracy's Gold Standard": hand-marked paper ballots, publicly hand-counted at the precincts (or wards, as they call them in Wisconsin), with all citizens, parties, and video cameras observing and with results posted right then and there before any ballots are moved anywhere. It's quick, accurate and a very difficult system to game, at least without a good chance of detection, and it would help put an end to all the questions in election after election, as to whether those announced as the "winners" have actually won."
So glad to see I'm not alone in this idea! What do we have to do to make it happen in time for NOVEMBER????
COMMENT #40 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 6/6/2012 @ 6:41 pm PT...
Rick H. @ 22:
Thanks for catching that error! Have corrected it in the story above, along with a CORRECTION note at the bottom of the story. Much appreciated!
COMMENT #41 [Permalink]
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Jen
said on 6/6/2012 @ 8:20 pm PT...
Not only were there people standing in line, but the media approached those people, asking why they were still standing in line when Walker already "won".
Also, I observed poll closing in southwest Madison. There, the first memory card for the machine "broke" and had to be replaced after ballot #894. Ballots had to be run through the machine at the end of the night that hadn't been counted yet.
Additionally, I wrote in my votes on an absentee ballot. Although my absentee ballot did make it to my polling location (I saw it), my vote was not counted. They simply made tallies on a sheet for all the people who wrote-in Tom Barrett and Mahlon Mitchell (and any other write-ins). The Chief Inspector did not know if or how those votes would be added into the final total. There are many other wards where people wrote-in their votes to ensure they would be counted by hand...
COMMENT #42 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 6/6/2012 @ 9:26 pm PT...
Davey Crockett--
I'm glad you think we reached harmonic convergence at #34, but then at #38 you post another response/argument that doesn't make sense and again ignores the meaning of what Brad is saying.
In this case the topic under discussion is out of state influence. Brad challenges your claim that it "happens all the time on both sides" by asking you to name other instances where there's been a $26 million dollar disparity between sides in campaign funding.
You respond that you threw a $100 into the pot from Texas.
What does that have to do with anything?
Nobody's saying that money doesn't come in from different places. The point being made is that this kind of election affecting disparity resulting largely from donations from a few anonymous and out of state rich people IS new.
COMMENT #43 [Permalink]
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lmk
said on 6/7/2012 @ 4:39 am PT...
"It appears that Walker was first elected on an agenda he put forward."
Really? Please point to a platform or speech, etc. from 2010 in which Walker said he was going to make taking on unions an issue in his administration.
COMMENT #44 [Permalink]
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Alex
said on 6/7/2012 @ 10:43 am PT...
So it seems to me that if the MSM is correct (I believe Brad is correct that we should look at the ballots first) that it was the 8 to 1 ratio of money spent that caused Walker to win, then we should impose a poltiical tax. A 30% tax on all political contributions. Why should the media companies get all the profits from Citizens United. Wisconsin would have made a decent dent in the state's budget problems.
COMMENT #45 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 6/7/2012 @ 3:20 pm PT...
re#44--
This is one of the many(and it really becomes a snowballing nightmare into Alice in Kafkaland) fuckers about not knowing with any certainty what the actual results of the fucking election are.
If the posted results are accurate, then I think it's safe to assume that money swung the deal, along with whatever influence the ongoing parade of dirty tricks might have had.
If the posted results are NOT accurate and say, for instance, that Barrett actually won, then how thrilling would that be for progressives to know that if we stick together and work hard we can overcome the effect of enormous disparities in campaign funding? Basically, fuck you, Citizens United.
But when you don't/can't really know what the actual vote is, how the hell do you work for change? What do you aim at? Except to continue to work to change the whole fucking dysfunctional mess.
COMMENT #46 [Permalink]
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