I thought it was a nice debate. As I stated throughout, I feel it was a tie on style but Cheney on substance.

I'll leave the fact checks until later on (its late here and I have alot of classes tomorrow, including a test - wish me luck)

Media Spin - none yet, I'm sure Drudge will show it tomorrow though from both sides.

As one pundit stated, at the start it appeared that the two were so contrasted (a grizzled veteran vs youthful vibrance) and it seemed that Edwards was attacking so much at the start it was like a little kid complaining to their parents.

I was surprised that Halliburton wasn't brought up more often, but as I stated - one of three companies worldwide that can perform the services it has.

Talking about never meeting Edwards and saying that he didn't have the best Senate attendance I think struck a view with people, like my fiancee for instance.

If I had to break it down, I'll give the Iraq debate to Cheney and the domestic to Edwards. For my money though, as long as Kerry/Edwards keeps the focus on Iraq, Bush has the advantage.

I'll chime in some more tomorrow if I can Brad. Check out the post I recently made on my blog about the ransacking of the Bush headquarters by my house.

I, again, appreciate our discussion throughout and can't wait till we're all fact-checking each other to death until the next debate.

Troll

Vote for the winner!

http://www.cnn.com (scroll down the page to survey)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/#survey

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Got any others?

Thanks for all the thoughts, Troll! Great to have ya in the Live thread! Hopefully we'll have more folks for the next Prez Debate on Friday! Let's do it again!

Watching without too many thoughts yet, but a quick answer to two thoughts of yours:

"Media Spin - none yet, I'm sure Drudge will show it tomorrow though from both sides."

BOTH sides? From Drudge? Come now, Troll. Guess we still have some work to do

"For my money though, as long as Kerry/Edwards keeps the focus on Iraq, Bush has the advantage."

I think that thinking is so Early Summer.com On Iraq, Bush is now on the defensive, and unfortunately, Iraq is indefensible (of course, in my opinion). So I'll strongly disagree with you there. But that's what makes the country, swell, no?

i thought on facts Edards was ahead. he forced Cheney to lie about his past statements on al Qaeda/Iraq. That in itself is huge.

I know...I'm trying to find the Cheney statement now. As I said during the Debate Open Thread...I think his quote may be my next BRAD BLOG video ad.

there is also apprently pictures of cheney with edwards at a senate meeting sitting nexct to each other for a 2 hour ceremony

Send a link if you got it, john!

Once again I had the pleasure of listening to the debates in the car. Now I'll have to rely on others to correct me if I'm wrong, but it didn't *sound* like there was a clear winner here. There was one exchange that I wish I could have seen on TV. That was where Cheney began his comments with, "[chuckle] Well Gwen," and she replied "Mr. Vice President" in a perfect deadpan... I KNOW the radio audience missed out on something there.

In terms of style and substance, Cheney sounded as dignified as I would expect a man with his long political career. Secretly, I wanted him to lose his cool, and tell ANYONE to go F themseleves, but that was not in the cards tonight. Edwards, in direct contrast, sounded impatient and unsure, and surprised me with how many times he stumbled over his word phrasing. I guess I was expecting more from Edwards than what he delivered tonight.

In all honesty, I'm not sure if Edwards is the guy I want "one heartbeat away" from Leader of the Free World. Coming off the beating Kerry delivered Thursday, I expected more. I wanted to be overwhelmed with the Democratic ticket. That just didn't happen tonight.

The problem, Vance, is that the man who is a heartbeat away from the presidency is a hell of a lot more intelligent and weighty than the actual president.

Cheney did a fantastic job of lying with a straight face. He lied about Haliburton. He lied about Iraq. He lied about the casualties (88.5 percent of all casualties of the coalition that Invaded and occupied Iraq are American according to the DoD) and...he took meals away from old ladies.

Unfortunately for B/C '04, the "REAL" president has to engage in an actual town hall meeting.

Obviously Dick Cheney's NEVER been on the internet or been to Fact Check.org.

Here are some of the headlines:

Bush Mischaracterizes Kerry's Health Plan
10.04.2004
Bush claims Kerry's plan puts "bureaucrats in control" of medical decisons, "not you, not your doctor." But experts don't agree with that.

Distortions and Misstatements At First Presidential Debate
The "Willie Horton" Ad Of 2004?
09.28.2004
Republican group's ad shows Osama, Kerry. It appeals to fear, and twists Kerry's record on defense, intelligence, Iraq.

Bush Ad Twists Kerry's Words on Iraq
09.27.2004
Selective use of Kerry's own words makes him look inconsistent on Iraq. A closer look gives a different picture.

GOP Website Uses Misleading Kerry Quote On Abortion
09.24.2004
When Kerry said abortions should be moved "into the mainstream of medical practice," he was talking about safer locations, not more frequent abortions.

And the Halliburton link doesn't mention his trading with our enemies while he was CEO.

Dummy.

A couple of Cheney's Iraq/9-11 posts now blogged in new item.

I asked in the Debate Open Thread...if this is considered a "tie" tonight, who then ends up as the the "winner"?

Republicans are already sluffing the debate off. Polls will show Edwards won, I think. Cheney said some HUGE lies and the post debate spin will be about them.

Anyway, the better Cheney looks, the worse Bush looks.

Jaime, he didn't lie about the casualties. Like Senator Edwards, you aren't counting those from the Iraqi Freedom Fighters. The have approx 750 deaths. 750, and we've got around 1000. Yup...must be 90%.

Cheney also caught Edwards on the cost of the war. First, $200 Billion isn't what the war has cost. Thats the amount APPROVED by congress for the war on TERROR. $120B has been appropriated towards Iraq, $80B towards Afghanistan. As Vice President Cheney mentioned, about $95B has actually been spent, not the $200B as Senators Kerry and Edwards would like you to believe. While one could spin it easily as they've done to make it sound like $200B, that's not really how much the war has cost. Thats the amount approved and its a big difference.

Edwards, in referring to my previous post, did make a point about casualties. He made the technicality of only counting the coalition, which the Iraqi Security Forces are technically not part of. So, by saying 90%, he's close to the 88%, but Cheney is also right by saying that you need to count the security forces and that lowers US losses to about 50%.

Didn't get to see most of the debate, and only heard about half while in transit. I'm sifting through the rest of the transcript now, maybe I'll have more thoughts later.

Something that did strike me when I caught the last ten minutes upon arriving home last night: in their closing remarks, Cheney very pointedly did not thank John Edwards for his participation.

I remember watching, thinking, was that the dig I thought it was? It seemed very rude, and intentional. Sure enough...

Edwards, in his closing remarks:

"Coin toss, Senator Edwards, you begin.

EDWARDS: Thank you. Thank you, Gwen. Thank you, Mr. Vice President, for being here..."

and Cheney?

"IFILL: Vice President Cheney?

CHENEY: Gwen, I want to thank you. It's been a privilege..."

Anyone else catch this not-so-subtle f you? Considering he had *never met him until last night* you'd think he would have been more cordial.

Troll, come on now...1) The number I heard that's "been spent so far" is something like $120 billion. 2) $200 billion has been approved and allocated for the War. Period. Once again, the silly verbal jujitsuu, had it been tried on the Democrat side, you guys would have simply torn apart.

See my reply to you on the "Bush/Cheney Strategy" item for another reply to this same silly idea. Let's try to be close to intellectually honest here, Troll.

I'm really glad that Iraq has now volunteered to be part of the Coalition.
That means that now we will only have 50% of the Casualties,
(caused by the Iraqis.) and they will have the other 50% of the Casualties, (caused by the US). It's nice that they are helping us share the load,
as we quickly become brothers in blood and bullets. It's only through teamwork as brothers in the biblical land of Babylon, that we behave
like the first pair of brothers in the world.

I'm wondering how soon it will be that our brothers in Iran, Syria, Uzbekistan and Pakistan are allowed by this administration to join us in the grand endeavor to bring peace, stability and democracy to
Southwest Asia.

Cool