I can't wait to see this! Make sure you post the video, Brad. I bet it's not going to be clear.

What if it shows a cartoon plane hitting the pentagon?

This should get interesting...

It should occur to everyone that four and a half years is plenty of time to dub up some "special effects." As with ALL public releases having to do with this "administration," the timing is highly suspect. I'm not one of those who subscribe to the "missile hit the Pentagon" theory, but I don't think a 757 did, either...

holy shit!!!

lets see what kind of exotic technology can vaporize a plane

911 truth seekers

Well, it takes a few years to doctor a video, right?

Yeah, I had heard some months back that this was going to happen, and of course, the big question is, why wait almost five years to show the recently renovated portion of the Pentagram getting hit?

And why were those intial frames that were released so obtuse and elusive, along with the incorrect date on the bottom? They didn't stop showing footage of the towers being hit over fear of offending the public's sensibilities, that's nonsense; they routinely manipulate and exploit the public's sensibilities. No, they stopped showing it on cable "news" because there are anomalies within that footage that doesn't jive with the official version of events.

Irregardless of what hit the Pentagram, there remains numerous red flags re 9/11 that no one wants to touch.

C'mon guys, let's give the government some credit...After all, that kind of tediuos photoshopping isn't easy. I'm sure it took at least three years. Of course, after all that hard work they wanted to hold onto the video until just the right moment for release. Say...just prior to news of a Karl Rove indictment perhaps?

And of course they didn't want to influence the Moussaui trial. After all, they exhibited such judicious restraint with those 911 emergency call tapes and victims' families testimonies.

Geez you all sound so, so, so, I don't know, angry, perhaps?

I can't get on www.judicialwatch.org .

Woah, I came in here intending to post something
expressing pre-emptivce skepticism about the video's
veracity, thought I'd be way out in left field. I don't
claim to know what happened at the Pentagon, because
the information is just not available, but I'm not prepared
to rule out any of the theories yet.

Can anyone get on www.judicialwatch.org ???

:crazy: Well Im not sure what to think NOW, untill I can actually see this for real, especially after watching CONFRONTING THE EVIDENCE: A CALL TO REOPEN THE 9/11 INVESTIGATION., (that had me totally questioning EVERYTHING this administration ever told was the truth, so I will remain as calm as possible till I see this then We can see if it can clear anything up for the millions of confused Americans.
The person that posted earlier are right though about this administration they are capable of anything.... .....Doctoring....ect.. If you want to see the CONFRONTING DVD special you can get a free copy of the dvd at the site: http://reopen911.org/index.htm or watch it at:
http://video.google.com/...362123&q=9/11+reopen

I'm certainly angry about it, but I'm also very puzzled.

If 9/11 is SUCH a cut-and-dried case, why are we unable to get all the answers?

If 9/11 is pure fact and not fiction, why are the facts pointing more towards an alternate scenario than the ones we have been presented with?

I guess we must accept that we WERE attacked, no matter whom or how.

What should matter is how we have HANDLED this attack since.

1.) We've not caught the perpetrator, because we would have heard about it.

2.) Our administration in their infinite arrogance deflected our righteous anger against the perpetrator and spuriously attacked a dictator of another country that had nothing to do with this crime.

3.) We have let the shadow of terrorism forever erode our civil liberties and nearly destroyed the very fabric of who we are as a people.

Luckily Americans have a deep-seeded distrust and disdain for government, so while it may take us some time, we eventually throw the bums out.

We know we were attacked, it doesn't matter right now who did it and why. What should matter to us now, is our response. And we MUST make the response clear in November if we have any hopes in turning back this blood-red tide of paranoia and fear.

Do I hear an "Amen!", brothers and sisters?

This had better be good. It better demonstrate how the plane hit flying only about 20' above the pristine lawn, how it burrowed through 3 concrete reinforced rings, how it only left a 16' hole, how the wings, tail and 2 nine-foot diameter engines obliterated into microscopic fragments. The plane better be white and not gray, since that piece of scrap (photgraphed in about 5 different places) was white with a red A on it.

If it's not crystal clear what happened, it won't change a thing.

On another blog the question arose, "How could a Boeing 727 (737?) plane make only a 12-foot wide crater in the Pentagon wall on both entry and departure?" Answer given: "The wings folded against the fuselage on impact."

Question: "Assuming this happened, and the width of the two wings were added to the width of the fuselage from that point backward, would this come to only 12 feet?" Seems to me it would be 20 feet, at least.

Sounds like it's a ruse. Just watched Pete Williams on MSNBC saying that all you're going to see is a "different angle" of those same still photos that were released earlier on - and of course ZERO mention of that incorrect date (Sept 12th!) at the bottom - and that you can see "the tip of the plane," but, he said, and this is revealing, probably not enough to satisfy those "conspiracy theorists."

Uh-huh. Exactly. Guess we'll wait and see...

Do you people realize how ridiculous you sound? That fact that you actually believe thsi crap your spewing is unreal. Its pointless to try and convince you otherwise since people as crazy as yourselves are too far for reality to cause concern.

As sad as it is to read the continual pro-terrorist, anti American discussion, it ensures my parties domination of American government.

I feel sorry for you all, but thank you greatly for making Democrats look so bad.

I always knew this day would come when new video of this would be released. Hopefully this will silence the tin foil hat crowd that thinks a missle hit the Pentagon.

I've been trying to think what Carl Rove would do to try
to do the most damage to the 911truthists.

And I'm wondering if releasing a fakey-looking video of
flight 77 would serve his interests: All the truthists would
get on board saying the video was fakey, and then the
Bushcists could say "See, that eholr bunch of loonies
thinks the Pentagon was hit with a missile!"

Sorry, "eholr" is typoese for "whole"

Go fuck yourself Ricky. And then read Paul Thompson's Timeline, and David Ray Griffin's two books on the subject. And then ask yourself: why did the Commission not address so many things, including the towers' central steel columns, the PNAC, Larry Silverstein's admission of "pulling" tower #7, and in fact, the Commission never even mentions tower #7 - a 47 story skyscraper collapses, the owner admits it was "pulled" on camera, and they don't mention it once in their findings. 9/11 was a false flag psyop needed as the required justification for further expansion of empire which necessitates rolling back civil liberties.

And forget about dems - why are members of former REPUBLICAN admin's lending their names to the 9/11 Truth Movement?

If no plane hit the Pentagon, can somebody from the tin foil hat crowd tell me (and the families) where the people on that plane are. I'd love to hear this...

Judicial Watch. Org must have crashed...

Jeff, the Truth Movement isn't about trying to prove what happened, it's about revealing omissions and implausibilities within the "official" version. And where there are lies and omissions, there is a cover up. Where there's a cover up, someone is lying. From there, it's the classic question of motive: who benefits, and why?

I'm unsure of what hit the Pentagram, although I fail to see how the enormous wing and tail span of a 757 could not leave impressions in the wall - which, before the roof collapsed later, had only a 16 ft wide hole in it.

http://911review.com/pm/markup/index.html

Ricky just shows how Naive he is, not to mention UNAMERICAN & UNPATRIOTIC. To just accept what ever he is told & not DEMAND that the truth be told, so far the bush administration has done nothing but mislead America, nevermind done Zero about investigating 9/11 fully , DO YOUR HOMEWORK ricky then come back & cry when the democrates win by a LANDSLIDE this nov. ,because the bush administration is made up of incompetant liars & ruined the Repulicans name . Further more I saw nobody here mention any political affilation to any party, so GROW would you.
http://video.google.com/...362123&q=9/11+reopen

Ricky just shows how Naive he is, not to mention UNAMERICAN & UNPATRIOTIC. To just accept what ever he is told & not DEMAND that the truth be told, so far the bush administration has done nothing but mislead America, nevermind done Zero about investigating 9/11 fully , DO YOUR HOMEWORK ricky then come back & cry when the democrates win by a LANDSLIDE this nov. ,because the bush administration is made up of incompetant liars & ruined the Repulicans name . Further more I saw nobody here mention any political affilation to any party, so GROW UP would you.
http://video.google.com/...362123&q=9/11+reopen

If a plane did not hit the Pentagon, where are the people who were on board Flight 77? Are they part of the conspiracy?

If not a plane, then what?

Who has seen or has access to the new video?

(K)arl Rove will hopefully by indicted!

Dont forget bush needs his Ratings up, they will try anything.

Jeff makes some excellent points.

I'm willing to consider anything but until somebody can explain where the people on Flight 77 went and why their charred remains were found at the Pentagon, I'm gonna have to say...A PLANE HIT THE PENTAGON!!

Jeff: Who ARE the people that were supposedly aboard the pentagon flight. Do you have a list of names???

Man that website must be getting some crazy web traffic, no way their servers can handle it.

AMERICAN AIRLINES FLIGHT 77
American Airlines Flight 77, from Washington to Los Angeles, crashed into the Pentagon with 64 people aboard.

CREW

Charles Burlingame of Herndon, Virginia, was the plane's captain. He is survived by a wife, a daughter and a grandson. He had more than 20 years of experience flying with American Airlines and was a former U.S. Navy pilot.

David Charlebois, who lived in Washington's Dupont Circle neighborhood, was the first officer on the flight. "He was handsome and happy and very centered," his neighbor Travis White, told The Washington Post. "His life was the kind of life I wanted to have some day."

Michele Heidenberger of Chevy Chase, Maryland, was a flight attendant for 30 years. She left behind a husband, a pilot, and a daughter and son.

Flight attendant Jennifer Lewis, 38, of Culpeper, Virginia, was the wife of flight attendant Kenneth Lewis.

Flight attendant Kenneth Lewis, 49, of Culpeper, Virginia, was the husband of flight attendant Jennifer Lewis.

Renee May, 39, of Baltimore, Maryland, was a flight attendant.

PASSENGERS

Paul Ambrose, 32, of Washington, was a physician who worked with the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the surgeon general to address racial and ethnic disparities in health. A 1995 graduate of Marshall University School of Medicine, Ambrose last year was named the Luther Terry Fellow of the Association of Teachers of Preventative Medicine.

Yeneneh Betru, 35, was from Burbank, California.

M.J. Booth

Bernard Brown, 11, was a student at Leckie Elementary School in Washington. He was embarking on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

Suzanne Calley, 42, of San Martin, California, was an employee of Cisco Systems Inc.

William Caswell

Sarah Clark, 65, of Columbia, Maryland, was a sixth-grade teacher at Backus Middle School in Washington. She was accompanying a student on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

Asia Cottom, 11, was a student at Backus Middle School in Washington. Asia was embarking on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

James Debeuneure, 58, of Upper Marlboro, Maryland, was a fifth-grade teacher at Ketcham Elementary School in Washington. He was accompanying a student on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

Rodney Dickens, 11, was a student at Leckie Elementary School in Washington. He was embarking on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

Eddie Dillard

Charles Droz

Barbara Edwards, 58, of Las Vegas, Nevada, was a teacher at Palo Verde High School in Las Vegas.

Charles S. Falkenberg, 45, of University Park, Maryland, was the director of research at ECOlogic Corp., a software engineering firm. He worked on data systems for NASA and also developed data systems for the study of global and regional environmental issues. Falkenburg was traveling with his wife, Leslie Whittingham, and their two daughters, Zoe, 8, and Dana, 3.

Zoe Falkenberg, 8, of University Park, Maryland, was the daughter of Charles Falkenberg and Leslie Whittingham.

Dana Falkenberg, 3, of University Park, Maryland, was the daughter of Charles Falkenberg and Leslie Whittingham.

Joe Ferguson was the director of the National Geographic Society's geography education outreach program in Washington. He was accompanying a group of students and teachers on an educational trip to the Channel Islands in California. A Mississippi native, he joined the society in 1987. "Joe Feguson's final hours at the Geographic reveal the depth of his commitment to one of the things he really loved," said John Fahey Jr., the society's president. "Joe was here at the office until late Monday evening preparing for this trip. It was his goal to make this trip perfect in every way."

Wilson "Bud" Flagg of Millwood, Virginia, was a retired Navy admiral and retired American Airlines pilot.

Dee Flagg

Richard Gabriel

Ian Gray, 55, of Washington was the president of a health-care consulting firm.

Stanley Hall, 68, was from Rancho Palos Verdes, California.

Bryan Jack, 48, of Alexandria, Virginia, was a senior executive at the Defense Department.

Steven D. "Jake" Jacoby, 43, of Alexandria, Virginia, was the chief operating officer of Metrocall Inc., a wireless data and messaging company.

Ann Judge, 49, of Virginia was the travel office manager for the National Geographic Society. She was accompanying a group of students and teachers on an educational trip to the Channel Islands in California. Society President John Fahey Jr. said one of his fondest memories of Judge is a voice mail she and a colleague once left him while they were rafting the Monkey River in Belize. "This was quintessential Ann --- living life to the fullest and wanting to share it with others," he said.

Chandler Keller, 29, was a Boeing propulsion engineer from El Segundo, California.

Yvonne Kennedy

Norma Khan, 45, from Reston, Virginia was a nonprofit organization manager.

Karen A. Kincaid, 40, was a lawyer with the Washington firm of Wiley Rein & Fielding. She joined the firm in 1993 and was part of the its telecommunications practice. She was married to Peter Batacan.

Norma Langsteuerle

Dong Lee

Dora Menchaca, 45, of Santa Monica, California, was the associate director of clinical research for a biotech firm.

Christopher Newton, 38, of Anaheim, California, was president and chief executive officer of Work-Life Benefits, a consultation and referral service. He was married and had two children. Newton was on his way back to Orange County to retrieve his family's yellow Labrador, who had been left behind until they could settle into their new home in Arlington, Virginia.

Barbara Olson, 45, was a conservative commentator who often appeared on CNN and was married to U.S. Solicitor General Theodore Olson. She twice called her husband as the plane was being hijacked and described some details, including that the attackers were armed with knives. She had planned to take a different flight, but she changed it at the last minute so that she could be with her husband on his birthday. She worked as an investigator for the House Government Reform Committee in the mid-1990s and later worked on the staff of Senate Minority Whip Don Nickles.

Ruben Ornedo, 39, of Los Angeles, California, was a Boeing propulsion engineer.

Robert Penniger, 63, of Poway, California, was an electrical engineer with BAE Systems.

Lisa Raines, 42, was senior vice president for government relations at the Washington office of Genzyme, a biotechnology firm. She was from Great Falls, Virginia, and was married to Stephen Push. She worked with the U.S. Food and Drug Administration on developing a new policy governing cellular therapies, announced in 1997. She also worked on other major health-care legislation.

Todd Reuben, 40, of Potomac, Maryland, was a tax and business lawyer.

John Sammartino

Diane Simmons

George Simmons

Mari-Rae Sopper of Santa Barbara, California, was a women's gymnastics coach at the University of California at Santa Barbara. She had just gotten the post August 31 and was making the trip to California to start work.

Bob Speisman, 47, was from Irvington, New York.

Hilda Taylor was a sixth-grade teacher at Leckie Elementary School in Washington. She was accompanying a student on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

Leonard Taylor was from Reston, Virginia.

Leslie A. Whittington, 45, was from University Park, Maryland. The professor of public policy at Georgetown University in Washington was traveling with her husband, Charles Falkenberg, 45, and their two daughters, Zoe, 8, and Dana, 3. They were traveling to Los Angeles to catch a connection to Australia. Whittington had been named a visiting fellow at Australian National University in Canberra.

John Yamnicky, 71, was from Waldorf, Maryland.

Vicki Yancey

Shuyin Yang

Yuguag Zheng

CNN just aired it. They tried their damndest to tell viewers that they were seeing an aircraft hit the building, but in fact, the video showed no plane.

Jamie McIntyre was on hand to tell viewers that he was there that day and took pictures of the cockpit, pieces of the plane - etc. - but it was all a lie.

The video showed no plane.

Jeff
The points I have always had trouble with were: Where did the plane & people go? Other than that, the official "CONSPIRACY" story by the 9/11 commision stinks of OMMISIONS & COVER UPS Ect ect....
Just for fun watch the other conspiracy version of the story alot of it makes MUCH more sense that what they want us to belive is true:
View with link below:

http://video.google.com/...362123&q=9/11+reopen

I am as distrustful of the Bush Administration as anyone else out there with a critical thought in their head but to those of you out there who think they would doctor videos to show a plane hitting the Pentagon, why wouldn't they have planted WMD's in Iraq if they are so inclined to lie and make up evidence?

"I am as distrustful of the Bush Administration as anyone else out there with a critical thought in their head but to those of you out there who think they would doctor videos to show a plane hitting the Pentagon, why wouldn't they have planted WMD's in Iraq if they are so inclined to lie and make up evidence?"

Damn.....that's a good question.

I just saw the video on BBC News 24. It's pathetic and shows nothing we haven't seen before. It starts with the explosion already underway then we see the smoke until it loops around again.

Seriously disappointing.

Raytheon and 9/11

2001-09-11 Stanley Hall Raytheon Director of Electronic warfare program management. Raytheon did the retrofit of the A-3 that hit the Pentagon, where Bush claimed Flight 77 hit it. Disappeared on American airlines Flight 77, the one that supposedly hit the Pentagon but did not.

2001-09-11 Peter Gay Raytheon VP of Electronic Systems on special assignment at the El Segundo, CA division office where the Global Hawk UAV remote control system is made. Raytheon did the retrofit of the A-3 that hit the Pentagon, where Bush claimed Flight 77 hit it. Disappeared on American airlines Flight 11, the one that supposedly hit the North World Trade Tower I.

2001-09-11 Kenneth Waldie Raytheon Senior Quality Control for Electronic Systems. Raytheon did the retrofit of the A-3 that hit the Pentagon, where Bush claimed Flight 77 hit it. Disappeared on American airlines Flight 11, the one that supposedly hit the North World Trade Tower I.

2001-09-11 David Kovalcin Raytheon Senior Mechanical Engineer for Electronic Systems. Raytheon did the retrofit of the A-3 that hit the Pentagon, where Bush claimed Flight 77 hit it. Disappeared on American airlines Flight 11, the one that supposedly hit the North World Trade Tower I.

2001-09-11 Herbert Homer Raytheon Corporate Executive working with the Department of Defense. Raytheon did the retrofit of the A-3 that hit the Pentagon, where Bush claimed Flight 77 hit it. Disappeared on United airlines Flight 175, the one that supposedly hit the South World Trade Tower II.

These are not only the type of people but they are the people that would be assigned to UAV type projects involving Mode 4 and Mode 5 upgrades. Why would they be in Boston and those planes coming from that direction and from north of Manhattan Island?

That 16 foot tunnel through three rings of the Pentagon is only made by a directional blast weapon. Rumsfeld has even slipped up and mentioned the missile that hit the Pentagon.

Some have seen the Pentagon parking lot camera video and the white trail of smoke. Jets do now leave white trails of smoke at sea level, but Thiokol powered AGMs do, at all attitudes.

I just saw the "video" myself, and the CNN reporter just now said something that I wonder if anyone else caught.

She said it looked as though the plane hit the wall straight-on. It did not touch the ground; it did not drop from above at any kind of angle.

We're talking about piloting a rather large piece of aircraft such that it is able to smash into an area above the ground, yet not damage the roof. That can't be more than a 20-30 foot high target!

There is no way someone could "pilot" a commercial jetliner to just that exact spot. Especially not someone who supposedly came from Saudi Arabia and trained to fly jets.

He would have had to be a "Top Gun" at Miramar to pull off this amazing feat.

And I assure you, Miramar screens applicants better than anyone in the world.

Jeff,
Please refer to the website
http://911research.wtc7....essays/pentagontrap.html
for a better understanding of where we whackos are coming from. I don't know what happened to Flight 77. It probably hit the Pentagon. But there really are many unanswered questions from that day. The biggest question for me is the collapse of WTC7. See
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/attack/wtc7.html
and please do watch the available videos of the collapse at that link.

This website I am referring you to really does seem to have the most balanced perspective regarding the questions and the inconsistencies. It is hard to ask these questions. But to ignore them would be irreprehensible. Ricky's response is like many other peoples. I can only respond with "Thou doth protest too much."

I do want to say that questioning the official version of what happened was a gradual process for me. There is so much crap and disinformation out there discrediting those who have legitimate questions. Just refer to the family steering committee and they're questions.

This is a difficult topic. I understand your skepticism.

I have heard a number of times that Valerie Plame Wilson was working on WMD matters in the Middle East, and a couple of times I heard that she succeeded in stopping a shipment of something that was likely on its way to be the plant in Iraq.

Their numbers are so low that we can expect all manner of irritating and awful things to come from them now, including finally "finding" WMD in Iraq, including saying they're releasing proof of a plane hitting the Pentagon which isn't proof of a plane hitting the Pentagon. They know that just SAYING this stuff makes many, many people believe it.

Ricky, no typos today, and actual sentences in English. Have you been doing your English homework? Good boy.

where is the gas station video, or the hotel video, or the 3 videos from the dept of transportation on the highway. if they show nothing then why not release them. once again we are given the minimum info that had to be obtained through a law suit. think about that......the American people had to sue our gov't just to get this minimal info. All this video shows me is we will never see any of the real footage and will just have to settle for the minimum. To answer what happened to the passengers is to assume that we think like people who would do this. The proof of a cover-up is simple. Condoleezza Rice statement of how could we have known they would use planes as missiles is proof enough for me. If they didnt know it was a possibility why were they doing drills on hijacked planes hitting the pentagon and the wtc's.

I really think that some people would need to have a terrorist literally sawing off their head with a dull rusty knife before they really truly understand how serious and how determined our enemy is and what evil they are capable of. Of course, by then, such an understanding will be too late.

IMHO: WTC 7 collaped due to fire and the structural instability caused by the collpase of WTC's 1 &2.

This is all good though.
More & more people are hearing about the conspiracy through this release & learning just how many normal American citizens believe there was one.
We are winning in that respect.

The gas station video is probably the best video and the government seized it. Sure, we all want to see it to know for sure it was a plane but who really thinks it's a wise idea to release such a video to the world showing a succesfull attack by Arab terrorists on the military headquarters of the United States of America?

Maybe someday in the future it will be OK to release the video but not while we are at war with these scumbags should we release a video showing their greatest achievement.

Think about it.

Nobody he sees the government's video can honestly claim that the "See" an aircraft. NOBODY.

That's a missile coming in at grasstop level.

Plunger,
If its a missile, who fired it and from where?

Also, where are the people who were on Flight 77?

(Tyson Slocum is on Colbert tonight. He'll stick it to big oil!)

Jeff, I agree with alot of what you say but please check out this documentary please:
http://video.google.com/...362123&q=9/11+reopen
ALSO CHECK OUT THIS:
http://video.google.com/...63801&q=loose+change
& then you can see why people of great intellegence questions this:
IMHO: WTC 7 collaped due to fire and the structural instability caused by the collpase of WTC's 1 &2.

Personally I think somebody's pet goat rammed into the Pentagon. At least that explains why there was no wreckage of an airplane found there. And, it's at least as reasonable as other explanations we've heard.

With Dubya in office we'll find all the details of 9/11 as soon a we find all the details of the Kennedy assassination.

Jeff, I agree with alot of what you say but please check out this documentary please:
http://video.google.com/...362123&q=9/11+reopen
ALSO CHECK OUT THIS:
http://video.google.com/...63801&q=loose+change
& then you can see why people of great intellegence question this:
IMHO: WTC 7 collaped due to fire and the structural instability caused by the collpase of WTC's 1 &2.

They could easily splice together authentic video shot from the Sheraton, the parking lot, the gas station, the highway, and put together a good 15 - 20 minute demonstration that was irrefutable to 90% of any viewers, skeptical or not.

That they did not do that and threw us this instead speaks VOLUMES.

Anyone with any doubt left that 9/11 was an inside job is obviously constitutionally incapable of accepting reality.

What happened to the real Flight 77? Considering that the military jets were sent 150 miles out to the ocean before they turned around and headed west to "intercept" Flights 77 and 93, it's quite possible the real Flight 77 was shot down over the ocean.

Just like Flight 93 was shot down over PA.

Keep it simple. You don't need UFOs.

Jeff, the Bush administration has lied about so many things, and so consistently, that its credibility is forfeit. The issue isn't how badly a given terrorist hates the United States (most of the people who hate us are not terrorists, in fact), as you suggest. It's "Why doesn't the official explanation we've been given match the physical evidence?"

A Boeing jetliner crashes into the Pentagon just above ground level, piloted by someone who never flew such a plane before, makes perfect contact but leaves a 12-foot crater? Twin towers collapse in New York from damage near the top, which we're told by engineers has never happened before (heat rises), and a neighboring tower collapses without being hit. It doesn't make sense, and given that the Bush administration used this incident as grounds for invading a country it had already planned to invade (but without a ready excuse), who can blame anyone for being skeptical? It stinks to high heaven, and that's a fact, Jeff.

By framing the issue in "How awful are these terrorists?" terms, you simply echo the Bush administration's argument for invading Iraq. "We're at war (no we aren't)," "The enemy hates us (we didn't attack that enemy)," so, "Let's put common
sense and healthy skepticism on the shelf and go kill more people named Ahmad and Muhammad, because they want to kill us."

Oh, and don't question anything we do, even stuff that's against the law, because we're protecting you and we know best.

Jeff:

Your government just released a video tape showing a Thiokol Missile flying just inches off the deck on a perfectly horizontal trajectory into the Pentagon.

Do you confirm that your eyes saw that?

i not only think it's wise. i think it is an obligation. how can releasing this be any different from releasing an angle that actually show us something. it all tells the same story. Jeff i am glad that you are seeking answers, thats what got me started in my search. now it appears to me to be obvious that something much larger happened on 9/11. you should search: probabilitites of cell phone calls being made from a plane at 30,000ft, 9/11 eyewitness.com, PNAC group/ the grand chessboard, put options on airline stocks, the hijackers who are still alive, sibel edmonds...etc. I dont really know what happened on 9/11 but i do know there has been cosistent cover-up. Oh yeah where is osama bin laden. If we were to capture him, the American peolple would be satisfied and say let's end this war. So with him "on the loose" they can continue their new american century. as long as bin laden isnt caught we all have a common enemy.

Jeff:

How did 4 planes vaporize on one day, and 3 skyscrapers fall demolition-style in one day, and never before and never since? Did you check out professor Steve Jones writings, the physics professor from BYU?

Sure, you have one or two questions we can't answer, but we have over 100 questions.

I don't know how ANYONE can honestly believe that "fire and structural instability" caused WTC7 to collapse. Even the 911 Commission knew better than to try to support that claim. They didn't even touch on it in their investigation.

BYU physics professor Dr. Steven Jones pretty much debunks that whole fire and instability nonsense.

In case you're interested. Check out
http://www.physics.byu.e...esearch/energy/htm7.html
Quite frankly though, it is probably a waste of my time to even post these links. Some people just aren't ready to go there.

Personally, I think WTC7 is our grassy knoll of today. The next generation will be able to analyze the evidence much more dispassionately. I think it just hurts too much right now for most people. Too bad though. Understandable, but too bad.

Anyone left still willing to suspend the laws of physics to believe the official line about 9/11 should really use this link. It has more than enough factual information and lucid questions to insure anyone who wants to learn the truth can.

Scholars for 9/11 Truth

Popular Mechanics:

http://www.libertypost.o...readart.cgi?ArtNum=86989

Popular Mechanics magazine probably didn't worry about the ethical considerations of hiring a cousin of Michael Chertoff, a former Assistant Attorney General and the new Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), as senior researcher.

But the March 2005 issue of Popular Mechanics (PM) plumbs new depths of nepotism and Hearst-style "yellow journalism" with its cover story about 9/11. PM's senior researcher, 25-year-old Benjamin Chertoff, authored a propagandistic cover story entitled "Debunking 9/11 Lies" which seeks to discredit all independent 9/11 research that challenges the official version of events.

DOV ZAKHEIM:

The CEO of Systems Planning's international division, Dov Zakheim, is a long-time DoD and Republican Party insider, and a founding member of the Neoconservative cult. While Bush was still Governor of Texas, Zakheim became one of his closest advisers, counseling him on defense technology and strategic aspects of Middle Eastern affairs. After the 2000 "election," Rummy rewarded Zakheim with a low-profile but strategically important position --- Comptroller, i.e. head money man, of the Defense Department.

Zakheim also co-authored the Heritage Foundation's infamous tract, "Rebuilding America's Defenses," in which the Bush Administration's entire design for renewed global conquest was laid down a full year prior to 9-11. On page 63, the authors note that timely implementation of their ideas would require "some catastrophic and catalyzing event --- like a new Pearl Harbor."

see for yourself:

http://www.newamericance...dingAmericasDefenses.pdf

Dov S. Zakheim was sworn in as the Under Secretary of Defense (Comptroller) and Chief Financial Officer for the Department of Defense on May 4, 2001.

Left the Bush Administration in mid-2004 for Booz Allen.

How Does Zakheim Fit In ?

He helped mold the Mid-East policy, and controlled the Pentagon purse strings.

Thanks to him, Israel, and their militia (Turkey), are awash in F-15's, F-16's, and the latest in offensive and defensive missile systems. Israel has a space program, ICBM's, nukes, and lots more.

Zakheim, who is a dual Israeli/American citizen and a Shul Rabbi, has stalked the halls of US government for 25 yrs. He has set defense policy which influenced Presidents Reagan, Clinton and Bush Sr. and Jr. This rabid Zionist was the controller of the Pentagon when an audit discovered over a trillion dollars was missing.

Most of Israel's armament was obtained thanks to him. Squads of US F-16 and F-15 were classified as military surplus and sold to Israel at a fraction of their value.

Zakheim is a rabid Zionist, who carries an Israel passport and is considered to be one of the top members of the secretive Illuminati . He predicts 9/11 and by sheer coincidence the Pentagon is hit by a remote controlled jet (Zakheim's ' SPC ' corporation is the premier company in the field).

http://www.sysplan.com/Radar/FTS

During his tenure as controller at the Pentagon from May 4, 2001 to March 10, 2004, over one trillion dollars was unaccounted for.

Military information is jeopardized, military contractors billed the US for Israeli items, $50 million fighter jets are classified as surplus and the list goes on and on. As the scandal of the missing 3 trillion dollars surfaces the Rabbi quickly resigns.

Here's how it all came together:

http://www.informationcl...se.info/article11385.htm

Here's why:

On the day of the 9-11 attacks, former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was asked what the attack would mean for US-Israeli relations. His quick reply was: "It's very good…….Well, it's not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy (for Israel)"

AND LESS THAN ONE MONTH LATER:

On October 3, 2001, I.A.P. News reported that according to Israel Radio (in Hebrew) Kol Yisrael an acrimonious argument erupted during the Israeli cabinet weekly session last week between Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and his foreign Minister Shimon Peres. Peres warned Sharon that refusing to heed incessant American requests for a cease-fire with the Palestinians would endanger Israeli interests and "turn the US against us. "Sharon reportedly yelled at Peres, saying "don't worry about American pressure, we the Jewish people control America."

I'll check out the videos but I've spent plenty of time since 9/11 looking at that kind of stuff.

To anyone who still doesn't understand why the government can't release the "good" video, see post #46 and think about it.

Then think again.

Jeff said:

"IMHO: WTC 7 collaped due to fire and the structural instability caused by the collpase of WTC's 1 &2."

The seismic shock from the towers falling was something like 2.5 on the Richter scale. (There are of course theories that those were in fact explosions, but that is a whole other topic). Here on the west coast we have those magnatude shakes daily. Typicaly they aren't even felt. It takes at least a 3.5 or 4.0 - 10-15 times as strong - before you feel the ground shake.

WTC 7 certainly wasn't compromised by the towers falling.

The fire was fairly centralized in the building, so if it did in fact cause a collapse (which has never before happened in a steel structure soley from fire) the center of the building would have collapsed.

Watch the video recommended to you and you will see that at first the central portion drops slightly - enough to cause the end walls to tilt in slightly and then the whole thing goes down in unison.

That is exactly how they plan it to happen when the "pull" a building through the use of explosives. It keeps the end walls from falling outward and insures the whole thing drops into its own footprint.

I'm sorry, but right now I don't have time to find you links, but search for controlled demolition and watch the videos of professional companies demolishing various buildings. You will soon see a pattern which is repeated in the collapse of WTC7.

Jeff's question is a good one. None of you have answered that yet. I understand why you want to believe your theories: You hate Pres.Bush and his Administration. Therefore anything you can come up with against him is good for you.

I have thought before about why we don't see much of the plane at the crash site of the Pentagon. But I'm not a aviation expert and I don't think many here are either. Perhaps the incredible speed of the plane on impact put the aircraft panels into quite small pieces. Or perhaps the aircraft actually went into the Pentagon building and was covered by the building's pieces as what happened to the planes that hit the WTC towers. Those two planes, fully loaded with fuel for the long flight to California, completely disappeared into the buildings.

But WE (you all and I) don't really know for sure.

The fact is that the only people who know for sure are the people who went into the remains of that part of the Pentagon and removed the bodies and airplane parts. Ask them. Get them on TV. Get them on the record. Get your Senators and US Representatives to have them at hearings in the Capitol.

That's the only way to know for sure.

Post 46?

Uh, there are plenty of videos of purportedly hijacked aircraft striking the WTC.

The logic of post #46 does not hold up.

The government today released a video tape of a missile striking the Pentagon.

Period.

To anyone who think that US military jets shot down any hijacked planes on 9/11: You are BEYOND help and I feel bad for you.

9/11 is very hard to accept. I know how that goes but to suggest that Flight 77 was shot down over the ocean goes beyond the pale.

Mike J: How about answering some of OUR questions?

Why were planes flying around for a huge amount of time, and not intercepted per NORAD requirements?

How did 3 skyscrapers fall "free-fall" on the same day, due to jet fuel heat which isn't high enought to melt steel, and never happened before or since?

How did 4 planes vaporize on one day, never before, never since?

Why won't the Pentagon release the video's of the Pentagon they confiscated from the adjascent hotel & gas station, and why are the witnesses of these video's under gag order?

How did they find a hijacker's ID intact, in a place that was supposedly so hot it melted steel?

Why was there molten steel at the base of the WTC, and pouring out the sides before they fell?

These are just a few questions, can you answer them?

The problem with post #46 is that we all saw the planes flying into the WTC. We witnessed the tragic deaths of hundreds of people and the frantic search by loved ones. Showing the plane striking the Pentagon is something I think we all have a right to see. The Pentagon is supposed to be impenetrable. That's what we had always heard. Perhaps they don't want to show how vulnerable we are. But at least show stills from other angles that were confiscated. Something isn't right with the official story. I don't know what happened, but I find it hard to believe your proposition that a terrorist wannabe just needs to watch a grainy video of an airplane striking the Pentagon to become proactive in their cause. Dropping bombs on innocent people they know and love may get them a little riled though.

i would love to get them on tv but they arent "allowed" to talk to anyone due to gag orders. i dont hate george bush in fact right after the attacks when he stood on the rubble and saif the people who knocked down the buildings will hear all of us soon, i f'n started crying. George Bush was like an icon at that moment. i have signed every petition and sent many emails requesting a real investigation. the 9/11 commision report is total BS and if you believe it you will never see any other point. Just remember i saw a poll on cnn that said 9% of Americans believe the mission in iraq is accomplished. Some people will believe whatever is spoonfed to them no matter what.

I still think Barbara Starr was once a man . . . . . not that I have a problem with that . . . Just an observation.

Conspiracy theories are not just for the government anymore.

The conspiracy theory that the 9/11 commission advances is good enough for many, but not for all.

But that particular conspiracy theory that the 9/11 commission put out has not convinced:

"Scholars for 9/11 Truth" (S9/11T) is a non-partisan association of faculty, students, and scholars, in fields as diverse as history, science, military affairs, psychology, and philosophy, dedicated to exposing falsehoods and to revealing truths behind 9/11" (link here, bold added).

Click on "Who are we" at the above link to see an impressive list of folk who are studying this subject matter intensely.

I say fair is fair, if the government has a conspiracy theory, then why not let scholars and scientists have a conspiracy theory too?

Post 46?
"Uh, there are plenty of videos of purportedly hijacked aircraft striking the WTC.

The logic of post #46 does not hold up.

The government today released a video tape of a missile striking the Pentagon.

Period."

Plunger,

Only by chance did those French brothers capture the first WTC strike and of course, after that many cameras caught the second strike. That is what the terrorists wanted, our media to capture their evil deeds and display it to the world.

The gas station video probably shows very clearly another hijacked plane hitting the Pentagon. As I said, no way in hell such a video should be released now just to satisfy the conspiracy nuts.

The conspiracy nuts want EXACTLY what the terrorists want which is for the world to see a succesfull Arab terrorist attack on the military headquarters of the United States of America.

Not a good idea.

1. Why didn't jets intercept the airliners since they had numerous warnings of terrorist attacks?

2. Why did Ashcroft stop flying commercial airlines, citing an unidentified "threat" in July 2001?

3. Why did FEMA lie about their presence in New York on 9/11?

4. Why didn't the Secret Service hustle Dubya out of the classroom?

5. Why did George H.W. Bush meet bin Laden's brother on 9/11?

6. Why did passengers or crewmembers on three of the flights all use the term boxcutters?

7. Where are the flight recorders?

8. Why were the FISA warrants discontinued?

9. How did Bush see the first plane crash on live camera?

10 Why was security meeting scheduled for 9/11 cancelled by WTC management on 9/10?

11. How did they come up with the "culprits" so quickly?

12. How did they find the terrorist's cars at the airports so quickly?

13. Why did Shrub dissolve the Bin Laden Task Force?

14. Why the strange pattern of debris from Flight 93?

15. How extensive was the relationship between the Taliban, the ISI and the CIA?

16. What exactly was the role of Henry Kissinger at UNOCAL?

17. When was it decided to cancel building a pipeline from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan to Pakistan?

18. Why did the FBI in 1996 close the files to investigate Osama bin Laden's relatives in Washington?

19. Why did .Bush stop inquiries into terrorist connections of the Bin Laden family in early 2001?

20. Who made the decision to have John O'Neill stop investigating Al-qeada accounts?

21. Who gave the decision to give him a security job at the World Trade Center?

22. Did John O'Neill meet anyone of the FEMA in the night of September 10th?

23. What about media reports that hijackers bought tickets for flights scheduled after Sept. 11?

24. Why did none of the 19 hijackers appear on the passenger lists?

25. Why would devout Muslims frequent bars, drink alcoholic beverages and leave their bibles?

26. Why would the hijackers use credit cards and allow drivers licenses with photos to be zeroxed?

27. Why did the hijackers force passengers to call relatives?

28. How did the hijackers change the flight plan without law enforcement or the military try to stop them?

29. How did a hijackers passport miraculously appear near the WTC? Who found it and what time?

30. How could the FBI distinguish between "regular" Muslims and hijacker Muslims on those flights?

31. Why was there not one "innocent" Muslim on board any of these flights?

32. Did someone go through the passenger lists looking for Muslim names and label them as hijackers?

It's a darn good thing that the WTC strikes were caught on video or I can just imagine how people would be saying no planes hit the WTC.

Our enemy must love all of this.

Can you say FX? Imagine this could not be released because of the trail, yet all the films of the planes going into the towers didn't matter?

Again can you say FX? Oh sorry they say it's a little grainy, maybe so you can't tell the cut ins..What about the tape from the gas station...oh it hasn't been FX'd yet, coming to you soon!

Impeach and jail the true 9-11 criminals Bush and company! All of them!

Jeff you are seriously lacking in logic. theres no secret, the world knows they all saw a plane hit the wtc, and heard the stories of all 4 planes. releasing videos to show the impact makes no difference to terrorists. your use of "conspiracy nuts" just proves where your logic comes from. think about it. the phrase conspriacy theory represents "nuts" to you. A conspiracy theory doesnt represent "nuts", it represent another point of view. I think that someone who just resisits an alternate point of view is sharing the same point of view as the people you are calling scumbags. you know the gov't will lie to you, so just dont believe it when theres no proof to what they are saying. and the proof they have they are refusing to release. I would love to see a jet on the pentagon footage. BVelieve me I dont want to believe that my gov't would do something like this. But the administration refuses to discuss it because "we are at war." the war we are at has been created by our gov't. so they created something to hide behind
you think about it....

Today's generation with their short attention spans and their misgiuded skepticism have no idea what it means to be at war.

It means (among many other things) that if we have a video showing our enemy crashing a hijacked US commercial airliner into the military headquarters of out country, we don't release it for the world to see.

Thank you comment #54: Next thing you know the Republidem party is gonna admit that they have produced a society addicted to fossil fuel that is destroying our fragile world environment for the benefit of the who..the interests of the oil elite. We must get rid of almost all electable positions in Washington and start working together in the environmental scientific community to stop the irreparable damage of human pollution and warming caused by burning fossil fuels which are melting the glaciers. The result will be increasingly Violent hurricanes, lack of food, increased disease, fresh water contamination and massive specie EXTINCTIONS AND HUMAN DEATHS CAUSED BY CLIMATES WHICH PRODUCE NO MORE RAIN IN AREAS OF THE WORLD. The more evidence to be provided to investigate THE TRUTH IS WELCOME as opposed to the BUSHIT VERSION of anything. Is making our elections legitimate a concern of the the Republidems..NO!!! It is not part of their reality. The U.S. PEOPLE ARE VICTIMS OF FRAUD IN THE LAST 2 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS and all future elections as long as electronic computer machines are used and criminals count the votes without a verifyable ballot trail ARE AT RISK. Did they at least change the date on the bottom to the 11th on the new video release? Excellent discourse so far.

"Our enemy must love all of this."

Dude, you have already lost the battle. In your world we're not to question any of the official version of what happened that day cause the terrorists must love it so much when we do. Just emboldens the crap out of em.
Seems to me you must know those terrorists quite intimately to understand what they love and don't love.

Comment #77: correction - All in electable positions

"COMMENT #44 [link]
...Jeff said on 5/16/2006 @ 12:21pm PT...

I really think that some people would need to have a terrorist literally sawing off their head with a dull rusty knife before they really truly understand how serious and how determined our enemy is and what evil they are capable of. Of course, by then, such an understanding will be too late.

IMHO: WTC 7 collaped due to fire and the structural instability caused by the collpase of WTC's 1 &2. "

Oh yes we understand our enemy his name is Bush and we understand he and his cohorts are capable of all levels of evil!

As for WTC 7 your wrong! The minimal fire there would never have brought a buildng down, just as jet fuel even a full tank will not burn hotter than 1200 degrees and it takes 3000 to melt steel!
The more infront of you that atrosities are committed the least likely all will believe them, that's thier MO and it worked on folks like you.

"Dude, you have already lost the battle. In your world we're not to question any of the official version of what happened that day cause the terrorists must love it so much when we do. Just emboldens the crap out of em.
Seems to me you must know those terrorists quite intimately to understand what they love and don't love."

As a Military Veteran, I can at least say that I have fought the battle and considered the mindset our our enemy. You are free to question anything you like and I am free to call you crazy if I so choose. Freedom of speech goes two way, mine and yours.

Jeff said:

"The gas station video probably shows very clearly another hijacked plane hitting the Pentagon."

Probably?

But the MSM claims the THIS video shows that.

Do you disagree?

Jeff is an operative.

He is here specifically on assignment.

Here Jeff...explain the story of the Dancing Israelis:

ABS 20/20 Investigation:

http://www.antichristcon...tained_Sept_11_Spies.htm

http://www.bigmagic.com/...es/blackj/column100.html

FOX News 4-Part Investigative Series:

http://www.informationcl...use.info/article7545.htm

And this official DEA report:

http://www.whatreallyhap...reportisraelispying.html

These are the smokingest guns of 9/11...aside from the newly released video which clearly shows the missile striking the Pentagon.

Did you watch it Jeff?

Did you see a plane?

No, you didn't.

When my toilet is full of shit, I use a Plunger.

Just as I thought . . . . . the republican & cons are more interested in Bill Clinton's trajectory . . .

AOL.COM IS SHOWING THE VIDEO RIGHT NOW!!! It is on their homepage.

That "plane" looks very small compared to the building itself. Also, I have never seen a plane land at that speed completely parallel to the ground. I can't see what this video proves. It looks like the same footage that was in "Loose Change". The plane is just way too small to be a commercial airliner. Also, in that CNN video posted above...where are the plane's wings???

you have considered the mindset of the enemy as you were told what the mindset was. Im only assuming that you didnt have any actual dialouge with the enemy.

not only was wtc 7 minimal, how about the hole that was left by the plane in the 1st attack. people were standing in that hole minutes after the explosion. yeah thats a serious inferno. Firefighters said there was only a couple pockets of fire and should easily be controlled. Bush said he saw the 1st crash on TV and said to himself "now thats one bad pilot. Must've had a heart attack" Are you f'n serious? the wtc the mecca for a terroist strike gets hit (and they were doing exercises on hijacked planes hitting the wtc) and our commander in chief says to himself "must've had a heart attack" i dont think of W as an intellectual guy, but thats an absurd comment. So i ask the question: Did W see the 1st plane hit, 3 days prior to the release of the video? He also said the same thing 30 days later in a speech. So if he saw it then he saw it from video we arent allowed to see. If he didnt dee it then he lied, and if he'd lie about that why wouldnt he lie about the whole thing?

It is possible to pilot a low flying airliner into a compact target without touching the grass. Tens of thousands of airline pilots do it everyday, except they have the added burden of keeping the plane and passengers intact when they touch down.

Depending upon the composition and structural integrity of a building, it is not unusual for the wings of a plane to fold in --- even an airliner. Simple physics dictates that when the structurally weaker material impacts the structurally stronger material, the weaker material will give. The Pentagon Building performed as designed, with the damage contained to only one section.

At high enough temperatures, anything can be incinerated. When the force of an explosion is contained, the energy released basically has nowhere to go (beyond concussion waves); containment increases the force of the explosion within the contained area, further contributing to incineration temperatures.

There is nothing left of the passengers or most of the plane because they were effectively cremated.

While I wouldn't put it past BushCo to do something as evil as this, the are too many logical holes --- such as where was the missile fired from, without a considerable number of people seeing it in preparation? Where did the plane and passengers go? It is smart to question everything this administration does (or any admin, for that matter), but in this particular case the lack of photographic evidence does not conterbalance the physical and physics evidence. Occam's Razor would seem to apply here, IMHO.

What is truly perplexing is why BushCo has kept these photos under wraps. They are obviously addicted to secrecy; they're re-classifying documents (secretly, 'natch) that have been declassified, some available for decades, others broadcast nationa-f**kin'-wide already. That's some wacky paranoid sh*t.

It is more plausible to me that the timing of the release of photos can be beneficial to a prez whose rating have dipped into the 20's. Perhaps we will soon be seeing more '9/11 photos as Election Day draws near. In case we all "forgot" 9/11, as the repugs like to spew on hate TV.

As if.

How convincing will this image be to 911 truth advocates?

Note that above - in the newly provided still frames which were broadcast on MSNBC, each of the two freeze frames clearly show the tops of trees behing the MISSILE.

The camera that this image is shot from is no more than 6' off the ground. A 757 would have completely block the view of the treetops in the background, even if it had been wheels down and parked on the lawn.

These images are proof that a missile struck the Pentagon.

Use your eyes. Use your mind.

A 757 fuselage is at least 20 feet tall - and the tail is closer to 40'

Do you see it?

No you don't.

Irrefutable evidence..i don't think so. We have so little time to change our ways from the perpetuation of dumping massive amounts of HUMAN pollution destroying the fragile world environment. We can get rid of these loser criminal bastards only self serving to themselves and work together to SAVE THE WORLD. TIME OUT!

Where's the plane? Maybe somebody flew it into the
sea. What's so difficult about that?

According to the official story, it disappeared from radar
about 9:00 and nobody knew where it was until just
before it hit the Pentagon.

Jeff:

re: comment 33 --

With your fantastic googling of Flight 77's passenger list, didn't you forget something very important??

Where is the 19-year-old Arab pilot's name that the feds claim commandeered this flight (his flight instructor, btw, said this 19-year-old couldn't fly a single engine plane) and approached the Pentagon by making a 270 degree turn (not at all easy for an experienced commerical pilot), flying this plane literally a few feet off the ground for the last several hundred feet and not badly messing up the Pentalawn or windows or spools of cable outside near the crash entrance, making no noticable noise while being only a few feet off the ground (well, except for the "official" 9/11 commission including the comments of Bobby Eberle, the Texas Repub who fronted Jeff Gannon who miraculously said he - Eberle, both saw and heard Flight 77), and, where are the large plane parts, the wings, the seats, the luggage, the body parts and the smell of blood (which no emt personnel reported) from all these passengers??

When the feds were sued under FOIA for the Flight 77 passenger list, guess what, Jeff, there were no Arab names on that list!! Oh, check your googled list and please point them out. Oh, and it must be a grand conspiracy of yours for me to think that the flight attendants didn't notice that the supposed Arabs who were on Flight 77 somehow were too busy to notice the names and faces on this flight somehow didn't match.

Jeff, are you selling used cars or swamp land in Florida these days?!?

The video released today sucks. It's hard to tell what you're seeing. Some might see a missile. Some might see a plane.

Some might see their hatred for President Bush. Others may see their hatred for our terrorist enemies, you know... the ones who did this...

Whatever you see, I'll see you all later. Nice chattin.

It's time to go home!

No explanation for the story of the Dancing Israelis, Jeff?

The trolls always flee when confronted with irrefutable facts.

Occam's Razor:
One should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything

1) 757, flown by an amateur
2) 500mph... Just feet off of the ground
3) Most heavily defended airspace in the World
4) Not intercepted
5) AFTER the WTC already attacked
6) Hits the only part of the pentagon that is fortified
7) No clear film ever shown
8) 16' round hole through 3 outer rings
9) No damage to windows around hole
10) No airplane parts - as per 1st report: Fox News

Quite frankly its a much easier task to postulate how the bodies could have been "found" in the Pentagon, than to answer how a 100+ foot jet with 42 foot high tail section & 100 ft+ wingspan could disappear into a 16' hole!

You are either very gullible or you're a liar, a traitor and an enemy of REAL Americans!

TXGIRL, You make some good points. I just wish that I could get a good explantion regarding the collapsing of the WTC buildings that day. Paticularly the way they fell. Especially WTC7. The ol' pancaking theory has pretty much been shot to hell. No way that happened. Also, why didn't any heads roll when our military failed to intercept those flights? It's inexcusable.

Now I am confused. The still shots on Brad Blog from MSNBC do not appear to show the same "plane" that is shown on the Video that AOL is claiming is the one put out by the Pentagon. What is up with that? The MSNBC looks much more like a plane. The object in the AOL video is white, much smaller, and looks more like a missle. Anyone got a clue as to what is up with this?

not only did he fly the plane like an expert, he had to tilt it to miss the adjacent naval building without the plane going a little up or down. photos from the 1st fire engine on the scene (10 min away already responding to a car fire) shows no wreckage but minutes later the Pentalawn is covered. a passenger list should have been the easiest thing. whether they used aliases or not, the name still would be on the computer. and havent there been a few different versions of all the passenger lists.

"After the Pentagon attack, the video cameras and tapes at a nearby CITGO, the Sheraton Hotel along I-395 and Virginia DOT cameras were all confiscated by the FBI and they have yet to disclose any of the contents that were recorded by those cameras. Those cameras would have recorded what came in to hit the Pentagon and if viewed by the public, all the world would know that it was not a Boeing 757, American Airlines Flight 77, as we were told. All the world would know that Bush's assertion is in fact a huge lie. They cannot disclose those tapes without indicting themselves that it was the U.S. government and select "private sector outsourcing" that did the alleged terrorist attacks of 9-11. In short, our government would have to admit that it is al Qaeda and that this GWOT (Global War on Terror) is fabrication made up to provide excuses for a despicable U.S. energy and war policy."

There is the "mystery part" and no, it is not part of a 757 jet engine and never has been. Oops!

They are all jet engine components (past and present) on the A-3 Skywarrior twin-turbojet airplane and on older versions of the 737. The USAF only has a few of the A-3s left in operation and what was formerly Hughes Aircraft, now Raytheon, has a fleet of them at Van Nuys, Calif. This type of turbojet engine has never been used on a Boeing 757, so the debate on "type of plane" can end there. This is a jet engine component with fan, not an auxiliary power unit (APU) as some have speculated or dropped into the conversation as disinformation.

What has been interesting is the level of "content blocking" that there is on the Internet where specific information regarding certain "jet engine components" such as those shown at the Pentagon have definitely been blocked. Our team had to take steps to go around the content blocks to get at the photos you are seeing regarding these rotor hub components.

The above photo is a launch of an AIM-54 Phoenix Missile, air-to-air missile. Making this launch an air-to-surface missile would not be a great feat and Hughes/Raytheon manufactures several such missiles that would blow a 16-foot diameter hole in the Pentagon with ease.

http://portland.indymedi.../en/2005/02/309894.shtml

in the still image above - the only object that is in motion is the white streak - which flies at hypersonic speed - dead horizontal all the way in.

Any darker items that your eye is trying to trick you into believing are the shape of a plane are the trees in the background. Watch it in motion...you'll see what I mean.

Jeff obviously has difficulty with, or just plain hates, thinking, preferring to just keep saying whatever seems to him will both let him keep a smug attitude and prevent engaging in that dread mental activity.

Jeff : When lies begin, it is hard to believe anything that is said.

In 5 years this administration has lied on everything the public is told. Our economy is not doing well, unless you are one of the lucky people enjoying the tax breaks. Our country is being sold off to the highest bidder, our environment is more polluted than ever.

After Pearl Harbor a commission to see what happened began in two weeks. Why then did this administration stonewall a commission for TWO years?

Why was the steel from WTC immediately taken from the country without forensic science checking it? So many questions could be resolved yet the public gets no answers from an incompetent at the least or criminal government.

Richard Clarke made a wonderful comment Friday on Bill Maher, he feels this government is so incompetent they could not pull 9/11 off.

Yet when journalist began to investigate the rigged election. Wasn't it convenient to have 9/11 happen? Ask yourself who stood to benenfit the most from America being attacked?

Hard to not see where the trail leads.

Brian,

I have not heard about gag-orders on the emergency responders and workers at the Penatgon. If the gag-order exists, then the Administration and the courts should explain to us why they can't tell their story.

I have not seen this new video yet (probably not until later tonight).

But IF today's video does not convince you, AND IF you want the Administration to release information that would convince you, THEN call on your Congressional represenatives and the courts to change those gag-orders (if they exist).

Plunger,
Thiokol may have more than one type of missle... The only one I know of are the solid fuel rockets used as boosters for the Space Shuttle on launch. They are not that precisely controlled. The Shuttle's systems does the steering on a pre-orbital insertion roll shortly after liftoff.

Which Thiokol Missile (model number or name) do you think it was, then?

Dan,
Hi Dan! Still think there were no people working in journalism then working at the White House then back to journalism and then back to the White House? Huh? I proved you wrong on that one. And you bragged about bagging me in that thread.... HA!

But I digress....

Some of your questions above are quite silly. However, some your questions are quite good. I don't know the answers and neither do you. But I can guess...

Perhaps a skyscraper never collapsing from fire had never happened before because none before had ever been impacted into before by a fully-loaded Boeing airliner flying at 500mph and freshly topped-off with enough jet fuel to fly all the way to California? Perhaps that large amount of fuel created a fire that was hotter than any other skyscraper fire that before existed? Perhaps the kinetic energy impact at 500mph and the terrorist pilot turning the wings at an angle just before impact damaged enough of those floors targeted to cause all (or most) of those floors to fall down onto the lower floors. Perhaps then the weight of those 3 or 4 floors could not be held by the weakened (by fire and impact) structure of the lower floor that it fell down again, and again, and again, and again, etc.

Perhaps the response time of the interceptor fighters was too damn slow and, I agree, should have been a lot faster. But I'm not a fighter pilot. The captain of Flight 77 was when he was in the Navy.
Charles Burlingame, 1949-2001. Captain, USNR (Ret)

Perhaps 4 planes "vaporized" on one day and never before because never before had such a terrorist attack occured before! Or had you not thought of that!

Perhaps the WTC#7 fell because of the thousands of pieces of WTC #1 & #2 that fell on it, plus the fire. It was like thousands of wrecking balls hitting the building. When we watched the events that day, don't you remember seeing large girders falling?

Perhaps the video today is a blur in part because the plane was travelling at 500mph? Or had you not thought of that either?

I think all the known videos should be released, but Jeff points out that there must be some security reasons for not.

But, hey, I'm a computer programer and applications developer. I'm not a structural engineer or scientist and I don't play one on the internet. Are you? That's why I say "perhaps" instead of stating for sure like you and your friends do.

Your point about the ID is a good one. I had never heard that one before. Perhaps it blew out a hole of the plane on impact so therefore did not get burned?

Perhaps a person above here is right that this has become the "grassy knoll" of our time.

Have a nice day!

fox news right now: this tape should finally put the wildest of all the cospiracy theories to rest. we should all get past this and focus on the war on terror. they are calling anyone who doesnt believe the gov't is "silly". what about all the people in the gov't who are questioning the incident? Notice how the media continually tries to divert all our attention. they give 1-2 minutes coverage of the new footage, tell us that we are all stupid we need to focus on the war and on to immigration and whos going to be voted off american idol this week.

the media is total BS

Please. The original CNN video posted by Dave clearly shows that there WAS no plane, the Roof had NOT collapsed and they were spraying water onto the building and possibly a hole.

Look at the CNN video again Dave posted again. They show "aftermath" but NO where is there a plane or any hole resembling it in the first segment (before the roof collapse.

What Judicial watch SHOULD have asked for was the confiscated Video from the gas Station across the street AND the Hotel video from across the way in clear view of the supposed crash.

Where are those? And what were a bunch of suits doing combing the grounds for in a line? Why were their suddenly all these workers lifting stuff out in trash bags.

I live closer to the Pentagram, just north of Baltimore/DC (I like that, whoever said that). That is what is now is. And a number of people here who KNOW the Pentagon, question what did and did not happen there. People I know that worked there at one time.

According to the official story, it disappeared from radar
about 9:00 and nobody knew where it was until just
before it hit the Pentagon.

Cheney and NORAD knew where every plane was.

Google: Cheney NORAD

Mike J

google search sibel edmonds and youll see what i mean about gag order.

#95 "You are either very gullible or you're a liar, a traitor and an enemy of REAL Americans!"

...ummm, no, I'm not. Chill, babe. I am as against BushCo as you are. And as an American whose family has been here since long before the white European invasion, I am curious as to what your definition of a 'real' American is.

But I digress. I am neither a liar, a traitor, or an enemy; and I don't think I'm being gullible. I am simply a regular American citizen who has learned a thing or two about the architecture of structures and machines, with a good dose of physics. I'm no scientist, nor have I ever piloted a plane as big as an airliner, nor do I have any idea what really happened. I'm not an operative, either.

I'm just saying what I've concluded after reading everything I could find and carefully considering and researching the questions that everyone has asked here and elsewhere. I think it is criminal of BushCo to have withheld the films and photos. I don't trust them, and I'm sad to say that I wouldn't be surprised if they were involved somehow.

But I don't know, and neither do you.

mike a quick "gag orders 9/11" google search

i got this: http://www.americanfreep...lawsuits_suppressed.html

COMMENT #104 [link]
...brian said on 5/16/2006 @ 2:10pm PT...

fox news right now: this tape should finally put the wildest of all the cospiracy theories to rest. we should all get past this and focus on the war on terror. they are calling anyone who doesnt believe the gov't is "silly". what about all the people in the gov't who are questioning the incident? Notice how the media continually tries to divert all our attention. they give 1-2 minutes coverage of the new footage, tell us that we are all stupid we need to focus on the war and on to immigration and whos going to be voted off american idol this week.

the media is total BS

Brian:

Wolf Blitzer and all others are doing exactly the same..."this video of american flight 77 slamming into the Pentagon puts to rest all of those wild conspiracies about a missile hitting the Pentagon on 9/11"

Karl Rove @ Work.

Unbelievable collusion among government and all media - across the board.

Today the evidence is crystal clear.

Mike J #23: Where did you prove I was wrong? You said that it happens all the time with Dems, just like what Bush did with Tony Snow...TV to the White House. I said "no", the people you were naming, were on TV AFTER they left the White House...I've never seen anyone do a "Tony Snow"...and ESPECIALLY from a Republican-biased TV show. So, I bagged you, still!

Getting bagged really stuck in your craw, eh? Still thinking about it!

Look at the photos now posted at the top of the blog.

Notice the shadow below the object.

Where are the wings????

"Who are you going to believe, the Government, or your lying eyes?"

This is the most audacious version yet of THE BIG LIE.

Right in your face with a video of the missile that hit the Pentagon.

This release of the "new" frames of the Pentagon video is nothing but a clever marketing propaganda ploy by bu$$hco. It is only a grand ruse,..mirage,..
a diversionary tactic designed to get the populous to focus their attentions elsewhere. A "terror alert"
if you will,.. a grand PSYOPS plan that has an ulterior motive - for those of you who claim that the actions of the bush administration are illegal and dictatorial with the explicit intent to shred the US Constitution - remember the act of terror,..
bush had all the justification in the world to do what he has done,... his only motivation here was to
"PROTECT" this country from vicious,.. vindictive,..
horribly violent "TERRORISTS"

Here is the PSYOPS PLAN-

New Pentagon 9/11 video to be released,..
(see how forthcoming GWB is)
(His intent is not to conceal)

Make a bowl of popcorn
sit down in your comfy strat-o-lounger
watch the newly released Pentagon video clips
(which reveals nothing new - no new evidence ! )

"AND DRINK YOUR KOOL-AID"

Same shit,.. wrapped up in a new 5lb bag.
Conceal,.. divert,.. withhold,.. bend,.. twist,.. and
muddy the waters some more.

This concealment of 9/11 evidence is reminiscent of the JFK file of evidence.

This government only tell you what it wants you to know,... the information that is released is highly suspect. Put each/all/every piece of evidence on the table,... allow historians to analyze and critically review the evidence in totality,... then allow public review of these independent reports.
The government has repeatedly proven it's self
incapable of NOT contaminating the the evidence review process.

JFK - Zapruder film - evidence of potential tampering:

Richard J. DellaRosa 9 The Great Zapruder Film Hoax
ASSASSINATION RESEARCH / Vol. 3 No. 2 © Copyright 2005 Richard J. DellaRosa
When the alterations were made to the Zapruder film is not clear. There appears
to be concurrence by the authors that some were done the very weekend
of the assassination. But since the film was withheld from the public for some
twelve years, there is no way to know when and where other modifications were
accomplished. This all nets out to the authors’ assertion that the extant
Zapruder film is not an authentic representation of what occurred in Dealey
Plaza on 22 November 1963. It does not concur with the descriptions of the
closest eyewitnesses. It is not merely an altered film, but a total fabrication. In
fact, the extant film may have been constructed using not only Zapruder’s film,
but other films taken that day. This may account for Zapruder choosing such a
poor POV—he may have been a decoy intended to distract attention from other
cameramen concealed nearby.
For a relatively small cadre of researchers, the Zapruder film alteration issue is
moot. They have seen another film of the assassination—a better quality film. A
description of it is reproduced in Appendix E of this book. These fortunate folks
have seen a film which closely matches the eyewitness accounts, and is very
different from the extant Zapruder film. This “other” film shows the limousine
turning from Houston Street onto Elm Street; it shows the limousine coming to
a full, yet brief, stop; it shows a man stepping into the street with fist raised—
possibly a signal for the driver to stop; it shows two shots to JFK’s head from
two directions; and it shows a shower of brain particulate violently sprayed to
the left rear.
It is important to note that none of the people who claim to have seen this film
ever did so in the presence of any of the others. Nor did they view it in the same
geographic location. Yet their descriptions of what they saw in the film match
identically. For them, there is no question that the extant Zapruder film is a
fabrication, part and parcel of a massive cover-up of the assassination of President
John F. Kennedy.

where is the satellite still image of the Pentagon showing what flew above the lawn?

was their a vehicle on the nearby roadway that launched a missile?

Why no satellite evidence of 9/11?

9/11 Loose Change Video

i'm not here to tell anyone theyre right or wrong. i just want the truth. i didnt approach this situation looking for a cover up, i approached the situation with the belief in the "official story." i seriously want to believe my gov't wouldnt do this but it has become very hard. I would love to focus on the war on terror, but ive been diverted to the war on iraq, and that is getting less and less coverage. no one has presented a good case for the official story, but there have been many good cases presented for a cover-up. come on people it's right there in front of you. look at the media they wont touch this subject, but they'll devote 60 mins to the davinci code, immigration, american idol, polygamists, etc....i think with over 2 million matches to a 9/11 cover up search this story is bigger than the media wants you to believe.

Doesn't anyone wonder why now are pictures being re released?

Perhaps too much information is coming out regarding the implausibility of the "official version" from structural engineers and chemical engineers.

Otherwise shouldn't it just be case closed?

WOW,

It's the missing frame of a previously released video that claimed to be a complete account of the plane flying into the building.

Come Dec. 25th you can see and track Santa all around the world.

WOW

http://www.question911.com/links.php

9/11 revisited shows some more connections especially connections with Mohammed Atta

COMMENT #118 ...texaslady

It is being released because of the NSA debacle.

BYU Prof. Steve Jones' 9/11 Thesis

...and answer this: Why isn't the MSM covering experts' symposiums across the country, disputing our government's official story about 9/11? The people giving these symposiums include professors, engineers, and scientists...and why won't any of the government's so-called experts accept an open invitation to attend and debate at one of these symposiums???

Ex-Bush Official: "Inside Job"

I can't answer the question about the passengers on the plane, but there are too many other questions FOR the case that 9/11 was an inside job. There's is ONE question (the passengers) which I can't explain for the other side of the story.

I'm going with the side with more evidence and questions that can't be answered. Overwhelmingly one-sided debate.

i believe the immigration debate is to divert from the iraq debacle, and these phots are to divert from the NSA debacle. And i side with you big dan, no one in the administration will answer any questions we the people have. they try to act like it doesnt exsist. It was less than 2 weeks ago that Rumsfeld was confronted by a former CIA agent during a speech about his quote regarding USA knows where the weapons of mass destruction are and we will find them. Notice how that got a few minutes of coverage the day of the incident but has been quickly forgotten by all major media. We have Rumsfeld on the spot the have to explain how his response to the former agent was "I NEVER SAID THAT" and quickly proven to be a liar with video footage of him saying those EXACT words, and try to remember Bush ran on the campaign of accountability. Yet everyone in charge of anything on 9/11 has received promotions.

If anyone is looking for a link to the video, The Washington Post website has it up...

http://www.washingtonpos.../16/VI2006051601034.html

I have seen the tape like lots of you. I fail to see ho wit proves anything one way or the other. A blurry image does not an aircraft make. I agree with the folks who are skeptical about the conspiracy though---what happened to the passengers? These may not be pictures of passenger aircraft, but one surely crashed and killed those souls that day.

We're all Americans and we need to pull together to save our Republic. When I tell you that a plan is in the works for Cheney to lead an attack against Miami, New Jersey, LA, and most likely Atlanta (to taint the money supply) - using multiple jumbo jets into nuclear reactors...don't just blow it off without some serious consideration.

This is WILD CORNERED ANIMAL STAGE, and these criminals do not want to go to the Hague for their War Crimes.

As for the Raytheon unmanned missile experts who died on 9/11 on multiple different aircraft...can we all agree that this is NOT A COINCIDENCE?

I mean really.

but according to jeff, plunger, you dont know anything because he uses a plunger on his toilet. and that's the type of people who we are trying to discuss this highly complex issue with.

100+ MSM Smoking Gun articles

Cooperative Research Complete 9/11 Timeline

http://www.tms.org/pubs/...12/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html

I'll start off by saying that I'm a huge fan of this site, and I dread every extra day the Republicans in charge get to maintain control of the government of the most powerful nation on Earth. I'll also add that my own mother sent me some links to the "911 truth movement" and a movie some guy made about all of it; I watched the whole thing ,too.

Now, I need to follow this up by telling everyone that thinks 9-11 was an inside job that you're waay off the deep end. Settle down, have a relaxing ice tea, and try not to let all the ridiculous assertions out there drown out your common sense.

Apparently, as with all conspiracy theories, everyone seems to think they're an expert. Well, if you follow the link above, you get to see what a REAL expert (a professor on materials engineering at MIT) on this subject sounds like; I'm not an expert myself, but as a Berkeley mechanical engineering grad, I can recognize a valid set of arguments when I see one.

In summation, there is no good reason to think the towers fell from a controlled demolition. Though the steel would not have melted at the temperature present in the fires, it would definitely have lost strength (at high temperatures, the crystal structure of steel can change, though the material remains solid). On top of that, there would be possible buckling in the columns due to uneven heating (the stresses created internally within an object when portions expand under significant heating can be very large). Between the combined effects of buckling and loss of column strength, it's very likely that the redundancies built into the structural design were finally overcome. At that point, the section above the struck floors would topple onto the lower structure. Due to the fact that the internal beams of the lower floors were meant to hold only the floors' own weight (with some extra safety factor allowance ... one that would not match the weight of 1/4 of the building), the collapsing portion of the building would bust through the floors below it with relatively little trouble. The effect would be slower than freefall, but not perceptibly so (the lower floors collapse too quickly to exert a prolonged impulse of force on the falling bodies, meaning there's basically too much mass falling to slow it down).

There you have it, 2 collapsed buildings from a pair of plane collisions. I'm afraid I don't know much about building 7, but honestly ... the application of Occham's Razor to this subject says that when a humongous catastrophe has just toppled two gigantic buildings, sending carnage everywhere in the neighboring area, it's most likely that structural damage of some sort did the building in. Anyone that would naturally think something else, without significant REAL evidence, is swimming out past the shores of reality.

A post on the "missile theory" coming up next ...

Yeah, that definitely shows something that might be a plane hitting a building.

And I saw a movie last night where a space shuttle landed and skidded under several bridges.

Sorry, I don't have all of the answers, but that video is by no means cut and dried proof of anything.

There are too many contradictions in the 9/11 conspiracy stories put forth by the government, I'm just not buying what they're selling.

(And anyone who doesn't think the US would ever do something like that needs to google Operation Northwoods.)

A Boeing 757 is rougly 45 feet in height while the Pentagon is 78 feet in height.

I'm sorry, but whatever is making that silver streak is in no way half the height of the building.

Not to mention that the Pentagon being the most surveilled building on the planet should have some other angles of this video that definitively show the object in question.

Hell, maybe the video tapes the FBI confiscated from the security cameras at the Marriott and gas station across the street might yield a better view?

Any chance the FBI might let us see those?

Still dubious on the 9/11 Official StoryTM...

Ari, If you don't think the freefall speed of the building collapses, and the pyroclastic flows are irrefutable proof that YOUR version of Occam's Razor is silly, you really need a refresher on Physics 1A.

Several people have mentioned the "grassy knoll" of J.F.K./assassination fame. Because of the insistence on the part of the mainstream (corporate) media that Oswald acted alone, which conforms to L.B.J.'s directive to the Warren Commission ("Oswald acted alone, make sure you reach that conclusion"), the Zapruder film has more or less faded into historical obscurity.

The Zapruder film proved CONCLUSIVELY that the fatal shot that struck Kennedy came from 2 o'clock relative to the Book Depository (Oswald's location).
J.F.K.'s head was blown open and his brain matter sprayed leftward (on top of Jackie). Unless the laws of Newtonian physics have been repealed, that means the fatal shot did not come from Oswald's rifle or from the Book Depository.

That's the simple truth, folks. You can kick it around, spit on it, urinate on it, debate it, do anything you want with it. But it remains the truth.

Does this prove a cover-up regarding 9/11? No, but it proves that governments can't be trusted to tell the truth. Including the U.S. government. Sorry if that makes me a traitor, trolls.

That silver streak you guys saw was not a 747 but some kind of business jet sized plane like a Lear.

i agree about more pentagon angles. this is the pentagon. From wht i have seen you or i could just walk up to the building slap some C4 on the wall and run off. the only way to get caught would be if those security cameras could positively ID us. the worlds most secure building and this is what we are supposed to believe. the stinks even more of a cover up. come on people, no matter what you believe, you have to believe there is more footage. and that shows our gov't is keeping secrets. to think that doesnt make me an expert it just makes me rational.

The ONLY way I can picture this missile having been fired at this trajectory is from a horizontal tube concealed UNDER the highway ramp built into a burmed hillside.

I haven't seen the area, so I don't know if that is even feasible, but it is surely more feasible than flying a 757 on a flat trajectory at 6' off the deck having just cleared a roadway that is higher than this flight path...HAVING NEVER FLOWN ONE BEFORE.

Anybody?

I'm no aviation expert, but to accept the official version of what happened at the Pentagon on 9/11 is to believe a fairy tale about an amateur pilot who performed a feat of aviation legerdemain that most professional pilots wouldn't even attempt, let alone carry out.

Does saying that make me a crackpot? A conspiracy nut? A liberal? O.K., I'm all of the above.
Good.

Brad,
Please stay away from this one. It can only hurt your credibility. I'm entirely satisfied that a plane was hijacked and flown into the Pentagon, just as three others were hijacked the same day.

Ari and Mike J,
You really cannot dismiss the collapse of WTC7 with such ease. It IS the smoking gun on 911. That's why the 911 commission refused to investigate it. Please refer to this website and watch the videos of the collapse.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/attack/wtc7.html

Then compare that collapse to the remains of the other surrounding buildings. Look at the info on WTC6

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/attack/wtc6.html

which had raging fires throught the building and extensive damage from falling debris. It did not collapse in one smooth fall. It is broken up and parts remain standing and others destoyed - in other words, it fell just like one would expect a steel frame and concrete building to fall under such circumstances. Clearly, WTC7 was demolished. Why? Just start there. If ANYONE can give me a good explation (and I do want one) for that building collapsing the way that it did, then I will stop screaming foul. So far, no one has.

And don't even try the fires and debris argument. That has been so refuted. Like I said, even the 911 Commission knew not brush it under that carpet.

...Cyteria said on 5/16/2006 @ 3:45pm PT...

Brad,
Please stay away from this one. It can only hurt your credibility. I'm entirely satisfied that a plane was hijacked and flown into the Pentagon, just as three others were hijacked the same day.

Nice to see you, Karl!

What day do we bomb Iran?

What a massive disappointment. Answers absoutely nothing.

The exact same frame being purported as new and finally released (i.e., the one with the blurry streak in it) is identical to the frame initially released in 2002 by the Pentagon:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/...rld/americas/1861977.stm
(note the first frame).

It's outrageous and insulting to assume that this farce of a "video" (more of a slideshow) will settle anything.

Flight 93 was an integral part of the very successful mass hypnotic induction that took place on 9/11.
Steps to hypnosis
1) Willingly hypnotizable subjects - stage hypnotists always pick the first people to raise their hands, basically everyone who voted for Bush in 2000.
2) Focussed attention - first plane hits, everyone turns on TV, pays rapt attention, just like watching a pendulum.
3) Rapid induction - sudden shock of watching 2nd plane hit generates immediate altered state of consciousness.
4) Trance deepening - usually done by having the subject walk down a flight of stairs in their mind, on 9/11 repeated news reports of people running down the steps in the towers, then followed by the actual towers coming down, repeat on TV as often as possible to further deepen trance all afternoon.
5)Hypnotic suggestions designed to create desired state of mind - in this case fear, by showing pictures of 19 scary terrorists and spreading story of heroic passengers fighting hijackers.
6) Test depth of trance - usually done with a pin to check numbness of skin, on 9/11 done with collapse of WTC 7.
7) Post-hypnotic suggestion - at mention of 9/11 will squawk with fear, rather like a chicken, minus the silly arm flapping, substitute flag waving instead.
8) Reinforce trance at later date - use fake news stories and movies like Flight 93 if some people start to wake up and discover the truth. Stage another false flag terrorist attack if poll ratings drop too low and there is talk of impeachment.

Ask Questions and demand truth! This poor quality video is not the only one available and they know it. Why are they keeping the other tapes a secret?

WHAT ARE THEY REALLY HIDING???

Autopsy: No Arabs on Flight 77
By Thomas R. Olmsted, M.D

http://www.sierratimes.c...2/article_tro.htm...

I am an ex Naval line officer and a psychiatrist in private practice in New Orleans, a Christian and homeschool dad. It troubled me a great deal that we rushed off to war on the flimsiest of evidence. I considered various ways to provide a smoking gun of who and why Sept 11th happened. Astute observers noticed right away that there were no Arabic sounding names on any of the flight manifests of the planes that "crashed" on that day.

A list of names on a piece of paper is not evidence, but an autopsy by a pathologist, is. I undertook by FOIA request, to obtain that autopsy list and you are invited to view it below. Guess what? Still no Arabs on the list. It is my opinion that the monsters who planned this crime made a mistake by not including Arabic names on the original list to make the ruse seem more believable.

When airline disasters occur, airlines will routinely provide a manifest list for anxious families. You may have noticed that even before Sep 11th, that airlines are pretty meticulous about getting an accurate headcount before takeoff. It seems very unlikely to me, that five Arabs sneaked onto a flight with weapons.
This is the list provided by American of the 56 passengers:

Resurrected Hijackers
Several Suicide Hijackers Later Turn Up Alive in the Middle East

Of the 19 alleged hijackers identified by the FBI, at least six turned up alive after the attack. The FBI's identifications included names, photographs, and, in several cases, other personal details --- all of which matched the six persons who surfaced after the attack to proclaim their innocence.
Abdulaziz Alomari

Abdulaziz Alomari was identified by the FBI as the hijacker who accompanied Mohamed Atta from the connecting flight from Portland and helped him hijack and pilot Flight 11 into the North Tower. Abdulaziz told the London-based Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper: "The name [listed by the FBI] is my name and the birth date is the same as mine, but I am not the one who bombed the World Trade Center in New York." 1 Saudi Embassy officials in Washington defended the innocence of Alomari, saying that his passport was stolen in 1996 and that he had reported the theft to the police. 2
Saeed Alghamdi

Saeed Alghamdi, a Saudi Airlines pilot, was identified by the FBI of being a hijacker of Flight 93, which crashed in Pennsylvania. Alghamdi was "shocked and furious" to learn this three days after the attack, noting that his name, place of residence, date of birth, and occupation matched those described by the FBI. "You cannot imagine what it is like to be described as a terrorist - and a dead man - when you are innocent and alive," said Alghamdi, who considered legal action against the FBI. 3
Salem Al-Hamzi

Al-Hamzi was identified by the FBI as one of the hijackers of Flight 77, thought to have crashed into the Pentagon. Al-Hamzi said: "I have never been to the United States and have not been out of Saudi Arabia in the past two years." 4
Ahmed Al-Nami

Al-Nami was identified by the FBI as one of the hijackers of Flight 93. Al-Nami said: "I'm still alive, as you can see. I was shocked to see my name mentioned by the American Justice Department. I had never even heard of Pennsylvania where the plane I was supposed to have hijacked." 5
Waleed Alshehri

Waleed Alshehri, a Saudi Arabian pilot, was identified by the FBI as one of the hijackers of Flight 11. Alshehri turned up in Morocco after the attack where he contacted both the Saudi and American authorities to tell them he was not involved in the attack. 6 7
Abdulrahman al-Omari

Abdulrahman al-Omari, a Saudi Airlines pilot, was identified by the FBI as one of the hijackers of Flight 11. After learning this, he visited the US consulate in Jeddah to demand an explanation. 8
Ameer and Adnan Bukhari

Ameer and Adnan Bukhari were named by CNN as suspected hijackers of Flight 175, the jetliner which crashed into the South Tower, in an article dated 9/13/01. In a correction, CNN stated that Ameer Bukhari died in a small plane crash in Florida, and that Adnan was still alive in Florida, having passed a polygraph test to confirm his innocence. 9

http://911research.wtc7....ceptions/identities.html

WOW! The Judicial Watch videos are finally up and working HERE and NO WAY was that a 757. It was a little, skinny, white MISSILE.

Karl Rove INVENTED the White House Iraq Group (WHIG) for one purpose. TOTAL MESSAGE CONTROL.

Rove is a genious...an evil genious.

He can only be effective when he knows literally everything. He is the REALITY CREATION ARCHITECT.

At any given time he can take a set of actual facts and use each of them to stitch together a totally false reality.

Rove knew that the truth was the enemy of their conspiracy to conquer the Middle East (the PNAC plan). His job, every single day, is to convince you, me and the rest of the world that you didn't just see and hear what you just saw and heard...or if you did, it doesn't mean what your logical mind is attempting to tell you - because "we're in a post-9/11 world now" and black is white.

Karl Rove is the single most destructive force in the US Government...the enabler of the entire evil scheme...THE ARCHITECT.

The scheme includes 9/11 as the essential pretext. "9/11" ... how clever, Karl! Only someone with American sensibilities would select the number we have all memorized to call in the event of life threatening emergency as the date for this evil....

KARL ROVE.

The war plan to invade Iraq was written BEFORE 9/11. The Secret Energy Task Force meetings that Cheney had with Ken Lay and the other OIL HOGS during which they all decided how to divide up the oil fields of the Middle East...all of that was BEFORE 9/11.

Now you see why Cheney insisted the substance of those talks remain SECRET.

All of their schemes and conspiracies REQUIRED 9/11 as the essential trigger.

Cheney outsourced the implementation of the FALSE FLAG OPERATION to Mossad...the FALSE FLAG experts. This explains why over 200 Mossad agents were operating in the United States prior to 9/11. This explains why five of them were arrested, having been observed filming the planes hitting the towers and their subsequent collapse - celebrating our worst nightmare.

9/11 was not a bad day for those involved in the Conspiracy. It was their shining moment...their PRETEXT.

One of them washed out...couldn't cope with the guilt. Ari Fleisher had to be replaced, and disappeared. Not dead, but out of sight.

The outing of Plame was designed to destroy the best WMD intelligence the US had at its disposal regarding Iraq. Plame knew for a FACT that Iraq had no WMD. It was HER JOB to know. Therefore Rove perceived Plame (the truth) as his WORST ENEMY, and conceived of a plan to silence her. Rove is the individual who insisted that Wilson be sent to Niger.

GUARANTEED.

This was the only way to launch a smear program which appeared to be aimed at Wilson, but was intended solely to shut down the entire Brewster Jennings operation and bury their WMD evidence.

THAT IS ALL ROVE.

He invented WHIG:

The group's members included Rove, Bush advisor Karen Hughes, Senior Advisor to the Vice President Mary Matalin, Deputy Director of Communications James Wilkinson, Assistant to the President and Legislative Liaison Nicholas Calio, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, National Security Advisor Stephen Hadley and I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby.

Every single one of these individuals is a co-conspirator in a concerted effort to defraud America into committing its troops and its treasure to invade a foreign country to the sole benefit of BIG OIL AND ISRAEL.

The pending invasion of Iran is the next phase of the very same conspiracy. Karen Kwiatkowski let us know that Larry Franklin had set up an IRAN desk in the midst of the Pentagon's IRAQ planners. Larry Franklin has pled guilty for passing Top Secret Iranian Intelligence to AIPAC (Israel). Israeli Generals were free to come and go from the Cheney/Rumsfeld Office Of Middle East Invasion whenever they pleased, without need to sign the guest register.

IT'S ALL THE SAME CONSPIRACY.

9/11 - Afghanistan - Iraq - Iran - Syria.

READ THE PNAC.

A "New Pearl Harbor" was a REQUIREMENT for its implementation.

Rove is running the entire PsyOps Machine to enable it.

Hang them for TREASON.

http://dailydocket.blogs.../2006/01/propaganda.html

But whereas Hitler was a true master of propaganda, and his minister a far less talented functionary, today the situation is reversed: our propaganda minister is the master, and our leader his functionary. Karl Rove is so confident of his strategy that he now announces it to the public! In January of this year,

Rove noted that we face "a ruthless enemy" and "need a commander in chief and a Congress who understand the nature of the threat and the gravity of the moment America finds itself in."

Here's more:

"[T]he people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

--- Karl Rove (oops!) Hermann Goering

Every single mainstream media talking head has stated:

"if you look closely - you can see the "Nose Cone" of the aircraft entering the scene from the right."

All of them said "Nose Cone"

All of them.

What are the odds?

For Cyteria: Bob, I have to disagree with you. Brad's credibility isn't at stake here. Rev. Griffin's speech at Madison spelled out a strong case that the Bush administration at least knew about the 9/11 attack beforehand, if not complicit in it. As far as I know, Rev. Griffin's argument has not been refuted.

The physical evidence and the testimony from engineering experts (including the Brigham Young professor) support Rev. Griffin. It isn't enough to say, "I believe the government." Not when that government has proven itself to be a liar on numerous occasions before and since 9/11.

http://www.prisonplanet..../110804factsstraight.htm

This is just one website that I found on the matter of Flight 77, within a minute or two of searching on Google. I can't say I know much about the source, so I can't 100% guarantee he's not lying ... but then again, where can you do that on the Internet?

The most important point the link makes is that there is no shortage of eyewitnesses who saw a plane flying very low towards the Pentagon that day (it's a shame those eyewitnesses aren't given more exposure to put to rest ridiculous theories). Just as telling is the claim that there have been no eyewitnesses who identified a missile ... there were just people who likened the plane, metaphorically, to a missile as it neared its final trajectory.

Furthermore, if one were to look further into the damage done to the building, one would find that there is evidence of a collision of the wings with the lower floors of the building. I'm afraid I don't have a link handy, but 5-10 minutes of searching should turn up a website with pictures of the lower floors (they do exist) showing significant external damage. Why did they not tear holes in the walls? Well, aircraft wings are not particularly bulky, and my guess is that they were constructed as a hollow shell, like the wind turbine blades I work with. While the wing is intact, is can bear heavy aerodynamic loads quite well. However, like a coke can with a dent on its side, an unusual impact, like against a steel-reinforced concrete structure, can leave it crumpled and shattered. The fuselage, however, can do significantly more damage because it consists of significantly more mass and has the hardest portion of the plane on its underside (in addition to producing an explosion from its stored fuel). The damage done to the Pentagon building, supposedly 16ft in diameter, would fit with the size of the fuselage ... roughly 12ft (trunk diameter of a 757 is 3.76 meters). Regarding the notion that more of the building should have fallen apart, and that 4 rings of the Pentagon would be too much for the plane to penetrate, I'll just say that I don't know the details of the Pentagon's construction, and neither do you, and neither do your sources on the Internet ... but to me as an engineer, it seems plenty plausible.

I see some people writing that the image in the video is a missile, but I fail to see how they can claim that from the fuzzy footage. That they don't discern the wings is almost meaningless, considering that the wings are very narrow and do not project visibly from the plane body at the angle shown.

Really, the silliest thing about the missile theory is that we have definitive proof that the WTC buildings were struck by 757 airplanes. In the absence of REAL evidence of a missile strike, or something else other than a 757 striking the Pentagon, and with consideration of the missing flight and passengers, and the evidence we have for a plane strike (however faulty it may be), the clearly logical conclusion is that it is vastly most likely that flight 77 hit the pentagon.

There may be some significant details about a botched response to the events of 911, or about a failure to adequately guard against it, or about the abuse of mishandling of evidence and footage surrounding the events ... those issues are fine and productive to explore, and if you think there's been government abuses/failures there, I'm all for listening to you, because I don't trust this administration either. However, this "Inside Job" crap just makes its proponents and everyone they're associated with look bad when they actually take up a cause with some merit.

You guys! I'm not kidding! The Judicial Watch videos show a MISSILE hitting the Pentagon. I don't know what all the other ones are on the other sights or on tv, but there are two surveillance camera videos won in court by Judicial Watch posted at their site. It is working now. Go here! See for yourself.

Well, I finally saw the video at the JW website. Guess I'm convinced. That's surely enough evidence to dispel any conspiracy theories here. Yessiree. No need to ask any further questions now. We can all close down our blogs and 911 websites and bake some cookies. Oh, apple pie, that is. Sure closes the case. Forget the flight manifests, the demolitions, the remaining unanswered question...It's all bunk now. We've seen the "nose cone". Halleluia!

Uh, wait, before we all go. I have one last question. Did that look like a plane to you?

Just look at all of these informed, patriotic citizens!!! Anyone else remember how not so long ago when any of the numerous anomalies of 9/11 were addressed in a forum, the skeptical few would immediately be shouted down by the naysayers and disinfo cyber spooks? The times they are a changin'.

And don't be fooled, the fascists in charge have power, yes, but the citizenry has the numbers, have truth on their side, and the 9/11 Truth Movement is growing daily - including many prominent "establishment" figures, and former republican administration officials (Reagan, Bush, Ford, Carter) - and the fascists are scared shitless because they realize that THIS IS NEVER EVER GOING TO GO AWAY.

Now, this likewise makes them even more dangerous because the mass murdering sociopaths in our gov and military will likely do just about any damn thing in attempts to stave off info of 9/11 becoming common knowledge, and that time is getting closer ....will the people buckle and follow comrade Bush and the neocon cult into WW3, or, upon the next psyop "attack," will they rise up and revolt, instinctively knowing that it's now or never?

I mean think about it: we're talking about people who routinely make decisions and policies that result in widespread misery and mass murder. Hell, look at Katrina, look at the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians. In order to maintain their power, I've little doubt they'd hesitate to use germs or nukes against anyone, including our populace, as huge of a gamble as that would be, these people are pathological, completely unconscionable, and I fear will do anything to drown out those "nutty" 9/11 "conspiracies."

Craig Hill for U.S. senate

http://www.hillsenatenow.org/

His doc on 9/11, "Treason Inc," is one of several I've seen, it's solid. It even has the local Wisconsin news footage of Hill being interviewed about it.

Agent99, #132: Thanks, but I got an A+ at Berkeley in Physics 7A (7-series for engineers), then got As in my statics and dynamics courses. Then I tutored physics for 2 years, to both high school and college students. I think I'm fine on that front.
The near-freefall collapse and the appearance of an implosion are effects that are in no way limited to a planned demolition. They are quite understandable results of the plane collisions if you actually know a thing or two about how the building was designed and also basic physics.

Jack Frost, #131: The fuselage is roughly 12 feet in height, not 45

#s 136 and 137: It's not so unrealistic to think that a plane could be piloted several feet above the ground. Certainly it's not a Top Gun maneuver. Pilots do have to land planes, after all, and that requires flying in a controlled manner several feet above the ground. Even pilots flying for the first time have to land planes. Hey, I'm not saying it's a peice of cake, but it's not grounds for dismissing the notion that that WAS, in fact, flight 77.

Susan, #139: How many strawmen need to be toppled before a person can accept that there was no planned conspiracy? When a simple explanation can be shown to exist for both the main WTC towers that does NOT include government scheming, why then should we continue to hang onto the same complex conspiracy theories for building 7? The fact is, I don't know enough about it, and it's difficult to get much info about it, primarily because it has received far less attention. With more info, it's very likely that it would have a good explanation. And frankly, I don't believe you when you tell me that the fires and debris explanation has been SO disproved; that's what people would have told me re: the towers, if I wasn't prepared to refute them with an actual deeper understanding of the conditions surrounding their fall.

Plunger, #145: The notion that some of the supposedly identified hijackers are still alive is interesting, but it's a bit of a non-sequitur regarding the plane hitting the pentagon. It's possible there are many people with the same names in parts of the Middle East; it's also possible someone stole the names of the men that are still alive. It doesn't mean the planes weren't hijacked.

Agent99, #146: That was in no way a missile. The front edge of the tail can be seen at the edge of the picture, and the body is too large to be a missile. You're deluding yourself.

BTW, in case you've missed it, TXGIRL (#87) sums up some of my position on the impact into the Pentagon pretty well. Good job Txgirl!

Ari... If you know your physics, that means stuff I'm not allowed to accuse you of on this site. I've watched videos of the construction of the building, among other sources, and neither the impacts nor the fires could even remotely be conceived to have caused those collapses. So. You're either a liar or a determined dupe on that one.

Go to the Judicial Watch site I linked at #151, NOT the damn screen shots or other internet videos. They're NOT the same. The videos I linked at Judicial Watch were produced to them by court order, and they are two different surveillance cameras' footage that show a VERY small, white, skinny MISSILE hitting the Pentagon.

Brad, can I ask him to take his head out of his ass?

Thhhpt. I saw no evidence of a plane hitting the Pentagon in that clip from judicial watch. None whatsoever. If anyone thinks there is anything conclusive here about Flight 77, you are deluded. I don't know if it was a missile, or what the hell it was, but I didn't see a plane.

www.loosechange911.org

"When a simple explanation can be shown to exist for both the main WTC towers that does NOT include government scheming, why then should we continue to hang onto the same complex conspiracy theories for building 7? The fact is, I don't know enough about it..."

Ari, First of all you're right. You dont know enough about it. Clearly, you didn't even check out the links I offered.

Also, you couldn't be that great at physics, cause you got the equation turned around. If you look closely at WTC7, then you begin to understand the questions surrounding the other 2 towers. You're saying that you reject the notion that WTC1 and 2 were demolished and therefore, you need not look at WTC7. I'm saying explain WTC7's collapse. Inform yourself. You proclaim that you do not know the facts because not many facts about the collapse of WTC7 exist. The 911 Commission did not delve into WTC7 for a reason. There is video evidence of the demolition squibs before the building goes down. Check it out before you argue. You're uninformed discourse shows nothing but arrogance. Your acceptance of your own ignorance in this matter puts everything else you say into question because you don't know your facts. The physicists from Scholars for Truth (an impressive bunch) certainly seem better equipped than you.

You gotta offer me a better explanation than "I dunno."

Plunger, #145: The notion that some of the supposedly identified hijackers are still alive is interesting, but it's a bit of a non-sequitur regarding the plane hitting the pentagon. It's possible there are many people with the same names in parts of the Middle East; it's also possible someone stole the names of the men that are still alive. It doesn't mean the planes weren't hijacked.

Considering that fully 1/3 of the hijackers are actually still alive, yet neither the government nor the MSM has made any effort to correct the record, I find that interesting.

Considering that none of the names of the 19 purported hijackers were found on ANY flight manifest, the matter of hijacking is worthy of closer investigation.

Considering that Raytheon employees (with highest level expertise in fly by wire technologies developed and tested by Raytheon) disappeard aboard those flights on 9/11 leads a thinking individual to question the likelihood that this is all just an unhappy coincidence.

Considering that Mohammad Atta was seated just one row in front of Mossad Agent Daniel Lewin on 9/11 is interesting, to say the least.

Considering that five Mossad Agents were caught celebrating in New York on 9/11 with explosives residue in their van and a video/audio tape of their own celebration, and subsequently failed SEVEN polygraph tests, perhaps there was a conspiracy involving Israel here.

Considering that Zim Shipping, and Israeli firm, cut short its lease at the WTC and vacated its offices there in the days prior to 9/11, that raises some eyebrows.

Considering that the Israeli paging system, Odigo, sent out a warning to avoid the WTC some two hours in advance of the aircraft striking the towers seems to indicate foreknowledge of said conspiracy.

Considering that BeBe Netanyahu was interviewed later that afternoon on CNN and could barely control his glee, stating "this is very good for Israel!" - it really all sort of starts to piss you off...

DOESN'T IT?

big dan #72

Great list!

Boy did this story ever hit a nerve!
Who's Karl Rove anyway?

Agent, other than being accused of being a liar and a dupe, I'm curious about this other secret accusation you've got hidden up your sleeve. It has to do with physics, eh? It'll be a little brain-tickler for me tonight while I fall asleep.

On to more serious matters though, the impacts did not collapse the building; nor did any melting of the steel. 2 points for you on those. -2 points for failing to recognize that I already addressed that. What I said was that the building could easily have fallen because the heat-weakened (yet still solid) steel could have been overstressed by uneven heat loads. If that doesn't make any sense to you, you're either ignorant or a determined crackpot.

About the footage, I initially went to the videos through your very own link, so there's no need to preach to me about the differences between those vidoes and whatever else you've got. What I saw (same as what you saw) was by no means a missile. I can understand that you think it's VERY small and skinny, but that's what we call PERSPECTIVE. Take a look at the building, and look at how it appears to rapidly shrink as it goes into the distance. Stop on 0:24 of the 2nd video. The fuselage of that object is approximately the same height as one story of the building where it strikes ... in the range of 10 feet tall. It's too big to be a missile. Besides that, you can make out the familiar curvature of the rear belly of the plane leading the the tail.

Brad isn't your mother. Anyway, I don't think he'll be on your side on this one, but I could be wrong ... regardless, the facts are against you, and that's all that matters.

Larry, Karl Rove, aka Turd Blossom, is *'s political advisor, a rabid neocon dirty campaigning fat little fascist we all hope will be indicted this week for lying about treason in the Valerie Plame Wilson matter.

Regarding Flight 77:

http://www.vialls.com/lies911/lies.htm

I think this article shows shows a The Solicitor General was lying. I also read that the there are no records of a credit card being used, and when asked for an explanation the credit card company waived the charges due to the tragedy. Wouldnt there be records of that, too. And by saying the charges were waived that means the call wasnt a collect call.

another thing: let's not resort to name calling that just sounds inmature. I like to hear everyone's take on the events. I want to be wrong. I want for the official story to become the official story. while i dont agree with you so far ari, i welcome your comments with open ears.

Dan #111,

Dan said:
"You said that it happens all the time with Dems, just like what Bush did with Tony Snow...TV to the White House. I said "no", the people you were naming, were on TV AFTER they left the White House...I've never seen anyone do a "Tony Snow"...and ESPECIALLY from a Republican-biased TV show."

That is not what I said! Hello! Earth to Dan, come in Dan! Go back and read it again BEFORE you continue to dig your hole deeper.
First this one

Then this one

OFF TOPIC, yes but I want to make the point again because you didn't get it. I only post here because we are not going back that far in threads anymore. (unless you want to continue over there)

If you had taken the time to READ that link back to the other thread, then you would understand (if your brain is working) that David Gergen fits the description of going back and fourth between journalism and the White House under 4 different Presidents.

Gergen worked for Presidents Nixon, Ford, Reagan, and Clinton. I think that even you can figure out which ones were Republican and which one was Democrat. He worked for 3 Republicans and 1 Democrat. Does that help?

Now, if you want to be an idiot, then fine. That is your right. But, yes, I don't like it when somebody like you thinks that you proved me wrong when the FACTS speak otherwise.

This is not one of your conspiracy theories that you say are facts and are really up for debate. This is one man's work history that is documented.

Stop. Before you post to me, read the earlier thread's post. Then maybe you will admit I was right.

That is, IF you have any honor....

For your reading pleasure:
WikiPedia on David Gergen
PBS Newshour bio on David Gergen

Get it finally?

Ari, bone up here. It'll take a while to get through all that peer reviewed material, and all those very sensible questions, but if you won't put in the time, you're just opining out the wrong end.

Brad is not my mother, but he owns this site, and he doesn't want commenters attacking each other. I can be entirely too florid for such a policy, but I try to respect it.

So get on your refresher course and stop blathering about perspective. I know the relative sizes of Pentagon and 757, but do admit I don't know all the sizes of our multifarious stocks of missiles.

Those clips show a missile. The surveillance cameras were on conservation mode so things look herky-jerky and the missile was, of course, going too fast to show in every frame, but you can see the nose entering the frame on the right after the cop car goes by in the first one, and the whole missile just as it's about to hit, again on the right, again after the cop car, on the second one.

Hannity & Colmes Top Story: 9/11 cover- up.......just kidding its immigration. Fox News is now telling us that immigration is more important than the secret evidence being withheld by the administration.

cnn headline news top story at the hour Bush & The Border

regular cnn (larry king) donny & marie osmond

Hardball: mayor for new orleans

what an f'n joke. I WANT THE OTHER PENTAGON FOOTAGE THAT IS BEING CONCEALED FROM THE PEOPLE.

So thats a missile.. ok.. What about all those people supposedly on that plane? They died right.

So.. if that was a missile.. where the hell are those people?

agent99:

In order for that to have been a 757 in the middle distance passing by, the trees behind it (which were never fully obscured as the purported 40' tall aircraft passed by) must have been upwards of 100 feet tall.

This entire streak of white smoke appears to be no more than six feet off the ground, and no more that 10' in diameter.

A 757 is massive, and would have surely blocked the view of those trees behind it as it passed by.

Ari #162

Regardless of perspective the fact remains that the pentagon is 77' tall and the tail section of a 757 is 63' 5" tall.

Therefore, event though the object is in the distance, you should be able to see the tail. In fact, assuming that the object is 15' off the ground, the top of the tail should be even with the top of the building.

As has been observed by several folks here you don't lose sight of the backround trees at any time. I do NOT see the tail.

Also with a total length of 231 feet (See link above) it should be 3 times as long as the building is high. It in fact looks to be only about as long as the building is high at the point of impact.

My biggest question regarding these videos is WHERE IS THE TAIL?

jimbo where those people are is speculation. I think most people here are just trying to deal with what the evidence supports. before we can answere where are the people questions, we have to get a full understanding of ALL the evidence. And i think there is alot of evidence supporting other views. I dont know what hit the Pentagon, and that what i want to know first before i can begin to seriously answer "where are all those passengers?"

Ari: Just because you can regurgitate information DOES NOT mean you have the ability to be a free thinker. Book smart DOES NOT EQUAL STREET SMART. My advise for U Mr. I don'tfkcingknow: maybe you should ask yo mama where she bought the cool-aid before you drink the Jim Jone's government issue.

Ari -

I was talking about the height of the entire plane, not just the fuselage. Unless you're trying to say that only the fuselage is visible, in which case Agent99 is still correct --- that's called a missle.

Check out this site that has specs on a Boeing 757:

http://www.aerospaceweb..../aircraft/jetliner/b757/

If you scroll down a bit you'll see that the height is listed at 44.50 ft - so I rounded up, doesn't change my observation much. Whatever that was that hit the Pentagon was not half its height, so it wasn't a 757.

Sorry.

And I gotta tell ya, I'm very skeptical of your supposed 'physics degree' based on your posted refutations.

And your 'debate' style reminds me quite a bit of Wally O'Diebold.

I think the video shows as much of the "nose cone" as it can before it begins to expose what it really is. then it skips into the explosion. I believe a 757 would show up bigger in the survallence video. But its irrrelivant if they would judt release the other at least 5 videos that were ceased.

Jimbo: I don't know where the people are, but we all know that people, and planes, are often disappeared by dropping them in the ocean. That flight went off radar, and whatever came back on radar was, CLEARLY, not that plane. So my guess is that it was ditched, passengers and all, in the ocean.

That was my very first reaction to people insisting 9/11 was an inside job and that it was a missile that hit the Pentagon (and Shanksville). The sad realization is that, if they were murderous enough to set the charges to take down the WTC buildings, they were murderous enough to simply off all the passengers on the other two planes. Hard to get used to, but if you go here, you will find entirely too much reason to give up the hope they wouldn't murder the plane passengers to do this. The truth will set us free, but it really isn't easy. I'd say the stakes are high enough now that we must face it no matter how hard it is.

Oops, my mistake at #171 - I googled Boeing 757 and scrolled down the page it gave me - I didn't notice it was actually for a 747 until I double checked it after Jack Frost's post. Jacks figures are the correct ones.

Therefore some of my proportions are off, but I STILL DON"T SEE THE TAIL!

But still.. if it was an inside job, why would they bother with a missile? Just fly the plane into the pentagon. Those people are gonna die one way or another. Right?

I don't think that "thing" on the video was a plane. Sure you couldnt really see much from that video due to its slow frame rate... surely the "real video" is way better quality..atleast it should be around the freak'n pentagon.

pentagonresearch.com has lots of pictures and details of the attack.

Downloaded the material on the Pentagon website. I have a question.

The squad car --the security car that passes in front of the camera in each video--- how is the security man did not hear the oncoming jet ? It is merely seconds after the car passes thru the security gate that the explosion takes place. Now, if I were that near in time and space to a screaming passenger jet so close-by--well, I think I would be looking at it. Did the guard have an Ipod in his ear, or what?

Jimbo, a 757 would have done far more damage, and been exponentially harder to actually maneuver into the building, would have caused tons of collateral damage on its way in, even if they could have convinced a Top Gun to fly it into the building, or program the autopilot to do it. The only way they could be sure to do only the damage they were prepared to take was with a missile.

The towers were designed to take 757-sized planes like a screen door takes holes punched by pencils, and it didn't take any piloting genius to smack into them either. So no need to use missiles there.

Jimbo #178

One reason to use a missle is due to "wing in ground effect".

This occurs when an airplane is flown close to the ground - typically at about 1/2 its wingspan. The vorticies off the ends of the wings come in contact with the ground and act as a cusion giving the plan additional lift. This is hard to control during normal takeoffs and landings even for expierienced pilots. There is a tendency for the plane to "bounce" off this cusion and gain altitude during landings. When encountered, the total drag on the plane also changes abrubtly.
Even a small increase in speed greatly increase this effect. At full throttle it would probably be unmanagable.

For a pilot who was not allowed to rent a Cessna to be able to control a 757 in a level flight path at such a speed and altitude under "wing in ground" conditions is another reason I don't believe the official story.

I mean, there should be at least one good eyewitness within sight of the oncoming vehicle. Surely he or she saw it. Might not want to hang around if he/she felt threatened---but the car moves in unhurried fashion. It's just weird, it else edited for time in a way not obvious to me.

For 1 minute, let's say there is no conspiracy and terrorist enemies armed with box cutters took one for their team to kick those freedom loving Americans of the Bushit Capitalist empire. Scientists not Bushit science, real scientists claim that all this pollution and heat caused by burning fossil fuels, driving from point A to point B to get to work etc is causing a dramatic change in the greenhouse atmspheric layer which protects this planet from the harmful radiation of the sun. George Bush/Dick Cheney and company are oil men. Every truck commercial, or planned exploitation that U.S. Congress make right now is so "they" collectively make a profit without a thought of what world environmental scientists are warning where this thing is going. It is no accident that these relevent concerns did not make Nancy Pelozi's DEMOCRATIC PARTY wish list. Or investigating ELECTRONIC VOTE FRAUD which Brad and co cover this story only as real AMERICAN PATRIOTS.

We must take a chance and elect new blood. People who want to end the Bushit war of lies and make America a world leader ASAP to save the world and world species. I can do a lot but you got to help me people. We have allies around the world and millions who will be FOREVER grateful for saving them and impeaching these corrupt rusterS. Change must start today.

Gtash # 180

Good question, but 2 problems.

#1 it is claimed by the news people I saw this evening that the plane was going 350 miles an hour. Other claims I have seen are even higher. This is about 1/2 the speed of sound, therefore the plane would be only half the distance away before you heard it than if it were not moving.

#2 The majority of the engine noise is directed backwards out of the engine discharges. Planes approaching don't make as much noise as when they are moving away from you.

Replace "plane" with "missle" in the above and it still applies

A perfect example of this occured to me on day when I was hiking a narrow canyon in the Sierras. I was sitting on a rock outcropping when I suddenly heard a whistling noise. As quick as I turned my head to see, two F16 fighter jets went screaming by so close I could have hit them with a rock. They freaked the crap out of me and every bird in the forest because I didn't hear a thing until they were right in front of me after which the noise was deafening. I could even see the pilots sitting in the cockpits.

There has been alot of talk about the tail section. I would like to hear some opinions on the "nose cone". It seems to me that a plane nose cone is shorter and gets fatter at a greater angle than what we see on the video. The proportions seem to be off. This is interesting to me because I have never been a real believer in the missile theory. I think there were too many eye-witnesses who saw a plane. The holes in the building walls are suspicious though. After all, you can't say the plane vaporized in one argument, and yet continued to plow holes through walls of concrete in the same argument. Bluebear2's "wing in ground effect" is interesting too. I had heard somethiing about that before but never really understood it until now.

notice on pentagonresearch.com

look at the impact zone pictures "where's the plane" there no debris on the lawn, but under photographers the guys are running across the lawn theres debris everywhere. and all the photographers are "unknown" or "anonymous" . notice the camera shot from VDOT traffic cam why is that not being shown. under lamp poles pole 5 once again not very much debris but under fire response first responder once again deris everywhere. look at ft myer e-161 once again no debris

The Pentagon is 5 stories tall, plus a large cornice on the top - call it 5.5 stories at 10 feet per story that is 55 feet.

On my screen the Pentagon measures 11mm high (measured with digital calipers) and the "missile" is about 2.5 mm high.

So by scaling 11/55=2.5/height of fuselage. 2.5*55/11=12.5.

If I'm not mistaken 12.5 feet is almost exaclty the diameter of a 757 fuselage and there is no missile that is anywhere near that big! I believe an ICBM is no bigger than 6 feet in diameter. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, I remember seeing a photo of the Pentagon inner ring with two holes. Both about 8 to 10 feet in diameter and spaced apart about the same distance as the engines on a 757. How could a missile make two holes 30 feet apart? The engines explain it prefectly.

BTW the offical story is bunk but the planes are all that is needed to explain everyting.

How they got there is the mystery that I want answered.

pathetic... you all sound like george orwells sheep. The farmer did it!

Plunger: I've watched a bunch of times now, and I just can't say about the trees thing. I don't know the topography there, or how far away those trees are from the Pentagon, so using them for the scale is too dependent on unknowns. Whereas: We can tell the distance and scale from the camera to the building and missile to the building.

I'd like to remind all the Flight 77 proponents here that the plane was blue and red with a white tail, VASTLY different from the unequivocally WHITE missile seen in these surveillance videos.

Onyx... You can't mix height with diameter and come up with 757! 2.5mm high is less than a quarter the height of the pentagon.

MISSILE. White missile.

http://www.flybernhard.d...lybernhard.de/b757_e.htm

This is a better site for info on the 757.
When the stats refer to the height of the plane, it includes the contribution of the vertical tail section and the landing gear together. The stat is probably most important for hangar specifications, but when considering the size of the main body of the plane it's way off the mark (unless you think there's another 15' of body both above and below you when you're in the cabin). In the video, only the fuselage can be seen before the explosion (due to 1 sec frame rate). That would be approximately 12 feet high, not 44.5.

Bluebear posted info to a 747. The 757 is no more than 179 feet long (the 300 version). Hard to tell from the videos if the object is that large (keep in mind, the 100 and 200 models are ~155ft long), but the visible portion in video 2 is roughly as long as the building is tall, accounting for at least 75 feet. At the same time, the complete tail and a small portion of the nose are either obscured by the box or off frame. That's the best image we would get, because by the next frame, 1 second later, the plane would have traveled (at ~300mph) over 400 feet ... far enough to traverse what appears to be 200 feet between the plane and the building and to lodge the whole body of the plane in the combination of the building and the fireball.

To Agent and Susan, I tried reading what I could of your sources, but I'm at least 6 hours ahead of you, so it's far too late for me tonight. I will say I found it disingenuous of Steve Jones to selectively quote the very same article I linked you to, by Pr. Eagar, in showing how the steel could not have been melted by the jet fuel, without following through with his conclusions as to how the towers did fall, which conflicts with Mr. Jones' theory. Furthermore, Nila Sagavadan and Elias Davidsson's contributions are next to worthless, for reasons I don't have time to delve into right now, but, in short, because their logic and physics are too simplistic and miss the point. Sadly, I didn't go much beyond that, but my initial conclusion is that Scholars for Truth are not very scholarly.

Btw, I have already watched Loose Change in its entirety (couldn't remember the name above), so I'm far from ignorant on the arguments of the conspiracy folks. I must admit I'm a bit unsure how to explain some of the apparent squib charge bursts, particularly in WTC7, but that alone does not lead me to believe the government coordinated the hijacking of 4 planes, demolition of a national symbol, attack on our military center, death of dozens of our own military personnel, and mass murder of thousands of civilians. In fact, it takes a LOT more than a few apparent charges to get me anywhere close to that point, not just because they wouldn't do it, but because it's too big and they're too inept to pull it off without word getting out. This isn't just a lone assassination we're talking about here.

Cheers,
--Ari

I don't think, as I said near the top of this thread, that it was a missile that hit the Pentagon. However, I'm equally skeptical about a 757's ability to do so little damage - even the LAWN was unscathed, for heaven's sake! (You could see that for yourself before they covered it all over with earth.)

The best speculation on this subject is that the aircraft was a retrofitted unmanned airplane, smaller than a 757, remotely controlled and loaded with explosives...oh, yes, and painted to resemble the flight it was simulating. Because many citizen witnesses interviewed on the day reported seeing an airliner flying towards the P. The engine photographed there before photos were prevented belonged to a considerably smaller plane.

Sorry, no links at the moment. It's getting late and I've had a gruelling day. But that analysis is easy to find by googling.

One other thing: the flight manifests and the ID's based on DNA "evidence" don't match up. Many name discrepancies. This was all thoroughly stage-managed.

Jack Frost: You make a really good point about Ari's debating style.

Ari,
Personally, I do not agree with the Loose Change video. They start out strong, but then they get a little too far out there with undocumented accusations. I also don't agree with the Scholars for Truth website. It supplies links to every crackpot theory there is out there. Dr. Jones does not run or manage that site. His work, as well as David Ray Griffin's work is complling. Still I find Jim Hoffman's work at

http://911research.wtc7.net/

to be the most balanced. WTC7 was demolished. Of that, I am certain. The squibs, the insufficient fire and damage, the precision of the collapse all point to a controlled demo. After you get some rest, please look closely at Mr. Hoffman's research. It is by far the best I have seen.

As for the Pentagon, the link Bluebear and Brian offer www.pentagonresearch.com looks interesting too. I'll have to read through it when I have the time.

Not gonna read 194 posts.. But, I watched the "new angle" (the other was just what was already shown from the initial releases a year back or so) and from the way it entered the frame, it did NOT hit the building WITHOUT burrying in the lawn.

Since the lawn was not touched, I don't buy the "new angle" a bit. The "old" shot shows "something" coming straight in, but it's no where near big enough to be a boeing (I thought it was a 757) wide-body cross-continent jet.

The lawn and 16' foot and wreckage do NOT support a huge passenger liner hitting the Pentagon. What IS supported is an unmanned drone or missle (remeber, missles these days have tail fins and small wings and look kinda-sorta like planes.. helps them fly 250 miles to their targets)

Hey Plunger: what if you pick out a building in the US and plan on destroying it with the full intent to tie in the blame to a country with a hostile regime and 3rd largest oil reserve???

What if you are so smart you can fool a lot of people who are in denial that it's government would orchestrate the deaths of it's own people to gain more power to control and abuse the state of affairs at the helm of the strongest nation in the world. By passing laws to reduce the rights and freedoms of "the people" and a unified one sided control of the mass media which blocks out the truth but who's running story line becomes your concern is to protect "them" (da people) from the act of terror you CREATED. How much BUSHIT explanation and smoke and mirrors video would one Wizard of OZ administration need to perpetuate this original lie to the mindless masses?

Brothers and sisters of truth seeking, hello, how is everyone? I know know that the truth is spreading, and many are becoming awake. However knowing is only of worth when coupled with 'action'. We are now faced with an invisable force within our Human collective which wishes us either dead or enslaved. There are many names for these people, the Illuminati, New World Order, the Family, etc, but one thing is sure, they reside in the shadows pulling the strings of there puppets, while they bask in there money. We need to take the states back, locally, the way again of this country, instead of following there will, we need to revolt against them, when they do not follow the PEOPLE, and then after time root them out of our government for good. This country should be a place where any one of us has the possiblility of being president, working together, for the people, but the only people who have ruled for almost 100 years now have been wealthy, well connected, greedy men, who have served the masters of the shadows in return for wealth. I true ruler is a person of pure heart, this one needs to rise.

For those who can handle the truth.

http://video.google.com/...8848&q=IN+PLANE+SITE

EA: I spend so much time on these 9/11 Truth threads and all the evidence out there precisely because I think realization of the truth behind this horror will cause people to rise up and take our country back. These smug dupes who will suspend the laws of physics and man to go along with the "winners", the coup d'etat, chill me to the bone, make my stomach lurch with the need to puke, but I keep at them because I don't want to sit back and let my country turn into a monarchy or dictatorship because of their smug folly. The forces of fascism have already cancelled out the economic power of millions of people who were middle class just a few years ago, and they're moving too fast for the rise of a person of pure heart to save our asses. We need numbers of people who are mostly heart working furiously to fend off this nation-ending disaster in progress, and this DOES include the use of force. To convince people to cast off their self-interest for the good of all life, you have to make them SEE the need for it.

The number one easiest to understand bit of the whole complicated mess is that the towers came down at nearly freefall speed. NOTHING can account for that except that all the resistence from all that steel and cement was vaporized (in this case by thermate, pools of molten metal still reacting with its chemicals were found beneath the rubble weeks later). ANY other explanation defies the laws of physics --- basic physics, not theoretical physics --- and, that, you will agree is impossible, no matter WHO suggests otherwise.

I've put together a collection of enlarged stills of the frame at 1:26 of the first video showing an oblong object entering from the right. Also included is a schematic and picture of a Boeing 757 - which was Flight 77's type.

Compare for yourself.

Truth: Susan just got finished dissing this video as getting a little too far out, but I have been checking on as much as I can find from that video, and though I haven't tracked it all down, I've gotten most of it. Fantastic as it may seem to people, most of it is true, or well-enough documented to be at least provisionally reliable. The great part about this particular version of this video is that it so elegantly shows people how the 9/11 Commission Report HAS to be wrong.

Loose Change, 2nd edition, great video --- here. Truth's link.

check this video out released 2006

911Podcasts.com presents Everybody's Gotta Learn Sometime

"It's easy to imagine an infinite number of situations where the government might legitimately give out false information. It's an unfortunate reality that the issuance of incomplete information and even misinformation by government may sometimes be perceived as necessary to protect vital interests."
—US Solicitor-General Theodore "Ted" Olson, in Jennifer K. Harbury vs. United States, at the US Supreme Court, on 17 March 2002 (his estranged 3rd wife Barabara Olson, attoney at law and CNN talkinghead disappeared on September 11, 2001, allegedly on American Airlines Flight 77 that never hit the Pentagon)

VIDEO DOWNLOAD: Operation Northwoods - James Banford from ABC News reported on Pentagon's Operation Northwoods plot to perp domestic terrorism in USA to blame a foreign nation and "justify" invasion, declassified in 2000
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/7209.php
http://BodyOfSecrets.com

"Towers that fell 'like a controlled demolition'. Planes that vanished then mysteriously reappeared, and crucial evidence that has been lost for ever. In the Pentagon, a top secret team drew up a plan to simultaneously send up two airliners painted and numbered exactly the same, one from a civil airport in America, the other from a secret military airbase nearby. The one from the airport would have military personnel on board who had checked in as ordinary passengers under false names. The one from the airbase would be an empty drone, a remote-controlled unmanned aircraft. Somewhere along their joint flight paths, the passenger-carrying plane would drop below radar height, and disappear, landing back at the airbase and unloading its occupants in secret. Meanwhile, the drone would have taken up the other plane's designated course. High over the island of Cuba, it would be exploded in mid-air after broadcasting an international distress call that it was under attack from enemy fighters. The world would be told that a plane load of blameless American holidaymakers had been deliberately shot down by Fidel Castro's Communists - and that the US had no choice but to declare war and topple his regime. This Top Secret 'agent provocateur' plan - code named Operation Northwoods and revealed in official archives - dates from 1962 when the Cold War was at its height and was declassified in 2000."
-Tony Rennell, London Daily Mail, "9/11 ON TRIAL -Towers that fell 'like a controlled demolition'. Planes that vanished then mysteriously reappeared, And crucial evidence that has been lost for ever. A new book raises bizarre yet deeply unsettling questions about the world's worst terror atrocity…" August 6, 2005
http://www.financialoutr...911_mainstream_media.htm

"Operation NORTHWOODS may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government. Operation Northwoods had called for nothing less than the launch of a secret campaign of terrorism within the United States in order to blame Castro and provoke a war with Cuba."
—James Bamford, ABC News, "Friendly Fire - U.S. Military Drafted Plans to Terrorize U.S. Cities to Provoke War With Cuba," May 1, 2001
http://abcnews.go.com/US...tory?id=92662&page=1
http://bodyofsecrets.com

"In the early 1960s, America's top military leaders reportedly drafted plans to kill innocent people and commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities to create public support for a war against Cuba. Code named Operation NORTHWOODS, the plans reportedly included the possible assassination of Cuban émigrés, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas, hijacking planes, blowing up a U.S. ship, and even orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities. The plans were developed as ways to trick the American public and the international community into supporting a war to oust Cuba's then new leader, communist Fidel Castro. America's top military brass even contemplated causing U.S. military casualties, writing: "We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba," and, "casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation." The plans had the written approval of all of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and were presented to President Kennedy's defense secretary, Robert McNamara, in March 1962. But they apparently were rejected by the civilian leadership and have gone undisclosed for nearly 40 years. The Joint Chiefs at the time were headed by Eisenhower appointee Army Gen. Lyman L. Lemnitzer, who, with the signed plans in hand made a pitch to McNamara on March 13, 1962, recommending Operation Northwoods be run by the military. Whether the Joint Chiefs' plans were rejected by McNamara in the meeting is not clear. But three days later, President Kennedy told Lemnitzer directly there was virtually no possibility of ever using overt force to take Cuba, Bamford reports. Within months, Lemnitzer would be denied another term as chairman and transferred to another job. Ironically, the documents came to light, says Bamford, in part because of the 1992 Oliver Stone film JFK, which examined the possibility of a conspiracy behind the assassination of President Kennedy. "The scary thing is none of this stuff comes out until 40 years after," says Bamford."
—David Ruppe, ABC News, "Friendly Fire - U.S. Military Drafted Plans to Terrorize U.S. Cities to Provoke War With Cuba," May 1, 2001
http://abcnews.go.com/US...tory?id=92662&page=1

"We could blow up a drone (unmannded) vessel anywhere in the Cuban waters. The presense of Cuban planes or ships merely investigating the intent of the vessel could be fairly compelling evidence that the ship was taken under attack. The US could follow with an air/sea rescue operation covered by US fighters to "evacuate" remaining members of the non-existant crew. Casualty lists in US newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation. We could develop a Communist Cuba terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Flordia cities and even in Washington. The terror campaign could be pointed at Cuban refugees seeking haven in the United States. Use of MIG-type aircraft by US pilots could provide additional provocation. Harassment of civil air, attacks on surface shipping, and destruction of US military drone aircraft by MIG type palnes would be useful. An F-86 properly painted would convince air passengers that they saw a Cuban MIG, especially if the pilot of the transport were to announce that fact. Hijacking attampts against US civil air and surface craft should be encouraged. It is possible to create an incident which would demonstrate convincingly that a Cuban aircraft has attacked and shot down a chartered civilian airliner from the United States. An aircraft at Eglin AFB would be painted and numbered as an exact duplicate for a civil registered aircraft belonging to a CIA proprietary organization in the Miami area. At a designated time the duplicate would be subsituted for the actual civil aircraft and the passengers, all boarded under carefully prepared aliases. The actual registered aircraft would be converted to a drone. Take off times of the drone aircraft and the actual aircraft will be scheduled to allow a rondevous. From the rondevous point the passenger-carrying aircraft will descend to minimum altitude and go directly to an auxiliary airfield at Eglin AFB where arrangements will have been made to evacuate the passengers and return the aircraft to its original status. Meanwhile the drone aircraft will continue to fly the filed flight plan. The drone will be transmitting on the international distress frequency "MAY DAY" message stating it is under attack by Cuban MIG aircraft. The transmission will be interrupted by the destruction of aircraft which will be triggered by radio signal. This will allow IACO radio stations to tell the US what has happened to the aircraft instead of the US trying to "sell" the incident. It is possible to create an incident that will make it appear that Communist Cuban MIGs have destroyed a USAF aircraft over international waters in an unprovoked attack. On one such flight, a pre-briefed pilot would fly Tail-end Charlie. While near the Cuban island this pilot would broadcast that he had been jumped by MIGs and was going down. This pilot would then fly at extremely low altitude and land at a secure base, an Eglin auxiliary. The aircraft would be met by the proper people, quickly stored and given a new tail number. The pilot who performed the mission under an alias would resume his proper identity. The pilot and aircraft would then have disappeared. A submarine or small craft would distribute F-101 parts, parachute, etc. The pilots retuning to Homestead would have a true story as far as they knew. Search ships and aircraft could be dispatched and parts of aircraft found."
—Jewish Zionist General L.L. Lemnitzer, chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff at Pentagon, Memo to Secretary of War Robert McNamara - Subject: Justification for U.S. Military Intervention in Cuba - Operation NORTHWOODS, March 13, 1962 (declassifed 2000)
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsar...v/news/20010430/doc1.pdf

VIDEO DOWNLOAD: Jewish Fox TV's Lone Gunmen pilot episode - Broadcast in March 2001, re Jewish General LL Limnitzer's Operation Northwoods plot by Pentagon, CIA and Jewish Ike/LBJ White House to hijack a US airliner by remote control and crash it into the Jewish Rockefeller's World Trade Center, declassified in 2000
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/09/6758.php

"I don't trust government. And neither should our citizens."
—US Senator Larry Craig, United States Senate, Committee on the Judiciary, "DOJ Oversight: Terrorism and Other Topics", testimony by US Attorney General John Ashcroft re President George Bush Jr.'s Executive Orders to "legalize torture" of US citizens and refusal to release that memo (felony Contempt of Congress), C-SPAN2, June 8, 2004

"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, it expects what never was and never will be."
—President Thomas Jefferson

"A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator. I don't know where Usama is, and I don't care. The Constitution is just a goddamn piece of paper!"
-George Bush Jr

VIDEO DOWNLOAD: Bush Sued by RICO Act - 9/11 victims sue Bush Gang under RICO Act for perping domestic terrorism and mass murder on 9/11/2001. Stanley Hilton vs traitorous media whores Shaun Hannity and Alan Colmes for Jewish Australian porno king pimp daddy Rupert Murdock on Faux News.
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/7209.php

VIDEO DOWNLOAD:
September 911 Surprise
The shockumentary miniseries - 9 hours
FREE VIDEO DOWNLOAD:
http://september911surprise.com

Dylan Avery suggests a Raytheon Tomahawk Cruise Missile hit the Pentagon in Loose Change 2. Check the shape of the nose of one of these missiles here. Look familiar? How about EXACTLY like the nose entering the frame of the surveillance camera footage we finally got to see today. There are also a whole bunch of other very plane-like depictions of them when you google "tomahawk cruise missile".

#142 Beautiful

#147 Mission Accomplished

#153 Amen

the two videos in WMV file format are avaliable from the link below:
http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/foi/index.html

these are more easily run in a frame by frame with full screen display. whats interesting is that there are a few vehicles that go across the background and one that drives out from the building on this side of those construction reels and things. The plane/missile is visible in both videos and from the perspective of the vehicles would appear to be rather small, certainly not the size of an jet airliner. in both videos one can get an idea of the debry thrown from the impact and its not much. The initial explosion is white/yellow in color and looks like High Explosives and not jet fuel.

These videos leave me to believe it wasn't the boeing jet airliner. Someone with better video editing could do a better job of some backgound and artifact subtraction and calculation of some velocities. Someone with experience in explosives might be able to calculate someother things rellated to fireball growth and colors.

i want to see those other Videos!!!!!

Susan: Here's some proof of a bit of that far out stuff at the end of Loose Change 2.

Agent99: Although, it might be that Humankind has to go through such things, in order to not take personal right for granted, and freedoms. Maybe this is what it is going to take to teach mankind, in order that history will not repeat itself, ever, or at least in the ways in which they have now for a long time. This just might be destiney, what has to take place, for every human to realise that it cannot be achomplished by sitting on the couch, or even behind a keyboard, no, it has to happen with actions, and over time. We might be enslaved for a while, but eventually bad will realease itself to good again, and the Universal tide between the two will eventually shift again.

So the buddhas have forecast, EA. Lots of people yet to awaken.

Downloaded the videos. Crude measurements, erring on the side of extremely generous, say that missile, or streak of smoke from it, couldn't have been more than five feet in diameter, and it was way lower than ten feet off the ground, more like three feet off it. The cruise missiles I've read about are about two or two and a half feet in diameter. So this leaves room for the possibility that it was a mini jet, but no way, Jose, was that a 757.

I think I owe someone above an apology, but am too tired to look to make sure. Someone was talking about diameter and height, and my mind was on the width of the initial site of impact at the time. If I disputed someone's effort regarding the diameter of a fuselage, I'm sorry.

I'm still dying to find out about the beautiful little matte black jets circling me as I was driving north on the coast highway somewhere south of Big Sur years ago. I was in a convertible, and it was two tiny jets circling, as if they were using my car as their vector for this maneuver. I watched them simply wink out of sight before my very eyes. HOW'D they do that!?! I may be crazy, but not psychotic. They were clearly visible one instant and invisible the next. Way cool. I was in an MG Midget, and those jets weren't that much bigger than my car. Broad daylight, back when my eyesight was still perfect. Scout's honor.

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Jeff:

The U.S. government has absolutely no reason to NOT show all of the videos (except that it shows something that is damning to the government).

What can a terrorist possibly gain from watching these videos?
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The fact of 211 postings on one issue in 15 hours demonstrates how much pent-up emotion people retain over 9/11. Many of us disbelieve the official story, others accept it and worry that we'll look like conspiracy kooks who also believe in the Loch Ness Monster and Martian landings...in other words, as
we've been described by the right wing whenever we talk about the stolen 2004 election. That is a danger to us, so let's look at the big picture.

I think we'd all agree that absent the following disinformation (lies) from the Bush administration, the official story would have been widely accepted:

1. Bush claimed the decision to invade Iraq was made after 9/11 (disproven by the testimony of Richard Clarke and Paul O'Neill).

2. Bush claimed he invaded Iraq because of WMD.

3. Bush claimed he invaded Iraq because Iraq was seeking yellowcake uranium from Niger.

4. Bush claimed he invaded Iraq because of known links between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda (Cheney still claims this is true).

5. Bush denied allegations of torture (disproven by his own Attorney General's admissions).

6. Bush denied using extraordinary rendition.

7. Bush denied the existence of secret CIA prisons.

8. Bush denied spying on Americans without a warrant (and while he was in fact doing that, made speeches saying warrants were always required).

9. Bush (through Scottie McClellan) denied that anyone in the administration was involved in the outing of Valerie Plame (already proven false).

10. Bush claimed Ken Lay was Ann Richards' friend, not his own, yet somehow he refers to this total stranger, who was part of Cheney's top-secret energy talks in 2001, as "Kenny boy" and twice had him overnight at the White House (including once after the Enron scandal had broken open).

A chronic liar who invades a sovereign country under false pretenses, suborns torture, and spies on his own citizens illegally has nobody but himself to blame if some of those citizens accuse him of conspiratorial motives that seem farfetched to others. In other words, folks, Bush and his friends (especially his friends) are capable of orchestrating a sinister plot that kills innocent Americans, on the grounds that a greater "good" (survival of Israel, American control of Middle Eastern oil, democracy movement in Asia and destruction of a "Muslim caliphate") could be achieved. Neocons think this way.

What evidence exists to contradict the official story that a gang of suicide terrorists hijacked four commercial airliners on 9/11, flew two of them into the World Trade Center, a third into the Pentagon, and planned to fly a fourth into the White House only to crash in rural Pennsylvania?

1) Engineers have testified that the twin towers could not have collapsed from being struck where they were by airplanes.

2) The twin towers were constructed with the specific goal of withstanding such an impact.

3) A third tower collapsed without being struck, an occurrence that hasn't been explained.

4) The damage to the Pentagon appears too limited to have been caused by a Boeing 757.

5) The lack of collateral damage at the Pentagon requires that the alleged hijacker (an amateur pilot) would have had to perform an extraordinary feat of airmanship.

Other suspicious facts are: Mohammed Atta was seen on Jack Abramoff's gambling yacht two days before 9/11; the White House ignored a specific warning a month before 9/11; Bush sat frozen in his seat for seven minutes reading "My Pet Goat" to a kindergarten class after receiving the news (in spite of the August warning, which should have prompted him to immediate action); Cheney's whereabouts and conduct on 9/11 have never been explained; and Zacharias Moussaoui has variously been described as a 9/11 plotter, a terrorist, a crackpot, and a terrorist wannabe who had nothing to do with 9/11 but was prosecuted anyway to placate the families of the victims.

Rev. David Griffin, a scholarly and soft-spoken man, made a compelling speech at University of Wisconsin/Madison last year. He persuaded me that Bush & Co. at least knew of the 9/11 attack in advance and failed to prevent it.

ARE YOU A 9/11 CONSPIRACY NUT?

If you think fact-checking is a waste of time, you may be a 9/11 conspiracy nut. (Have you considered making a documentary?)

If you think international bankers financed a plan to close down Wall Street, you might be a 9/11 conspiracy nut.

If you think the perps made the cover story unbelievable and made blunders everywhere, fooling everyone in the world but you and your friends, you might be a 9/11 conspiracy nutball.

If disagreeing with you is certain proof that someone is an agent, you might be a 9/11 conspiracy nut.

If you think the profound questions of the world are best solved by angry white guys with IQ's in the mid-80's, you may be a 9/11 conspiracy nut. Or some other kind of nut.

If you think all the other 9/11 truth people are for the birds, but you have it all figured out, you may be a 9/11 conspiracy nut.

If you took WAY THE HELL too much ecstasy, you might be a 9/11 conspiracy nut.

If you just can't believe how stupid and brainwashed everyone but you is, you may be a 9/11 conspiracy nut.

If you think everyone is laughing with you, you may be a 9/11 conspiradroid.

If you think it's cool and patriotic to make false accusations of mass murder, you must be a 9/11 conspiracy nut.

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Here are a couple of animated gifs I made and a still of the object in question. Notice in the still that, if this is a plane, the windows appear to be situated such that the fusalage would have to be rotated 90 degrees to the left. This seems to be contradictory since the wings were apparently destroyed upon impact and there is relatively little destruction of the soil before impact.

Notice that in the second animated GIF, there appears to be a white smoke trail behind this object before impact. NOTE: it does not appear to be in the shape of the tail of a American Airlines 757.

This video leads me towards the missile theory more than it does towards the plane theory (and I was not a believer in the missile theory).

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There are lots of scientists, engineers, and professors, apparently not afraid of their credibility being compromised!!!

Perry Logan: Talk is cheap; what about all the unanswered questions we have???

As in just about all things political, white Americans tend to have much, much more faith in the the American system of governance, security and the American judicial system, while non-whites, particularly native and African-Americans have a different perspective born out of a different experience.

There is a reality about America. White privilege shields some Americans from that reality and creates confusion as to who their allegiances should be with.

The same reason white folks believe the Bush 911 conspiracy theory is the same reason white folks can't come together and get an American universal healthcare system. It's the same reason labor unions are so weak and corporations run everything. It's the same reason we have such shitty mass transit and can only buy cars that get 30 miles per gallon when other countries baseline standards have for a long time been above that shit.

It's all for the same reason. No solidarity amongs that people. Divisions, fractures and infighting. White folks have been fooled by the carrot of white privilege into siding with super rich elites and against their class interests.

This applies to all Republicans and to most white Democrats who deny black folks leadership within the Democratic Party.

400 years of white privilege

So I'm curious as to what is the ethnic composition of the readers on this blog and particularly, within this thread.

I think most white folks in America are at an extreme psychological disadvantage due to hundreds of years of white privilege leaving multi-generational scars of delusion preventing sound assessment of what reality even is.

On the other hand, non-whites in America know what this country is capable of because we have multi-generational memory of the true underbelly.

That is why election fraud is no surprise.
911 is no surprise.
The crimes of the US govt rarely surprise red and black folk, Native and African-Americans. It's the white Americans that are shocked, never believe the truth and thus allow it to be repeated again and again and again and again.....

Ingemar S

Perry Logan accuses skeptics of not checking their facts (his first condemnation). He then proceeds, without a single fact in support, to accuse these same skeptics of having low IQ's (I believe mine is around 130), using ecstasy (I smoke cigars), being angry white guys (calm people, women and blacks all support the official version, in other words), and of having their own specific theories while being intolerant of others' theories (categorically untrue).

I invite Mr. Logan to tell us in plain English that he accepts the official version of 9/11 (he hasn't done that, notice). Then he might explain why the Bush administration fought tooth and nails to deny the Kean-Hamilton commission the tools it needed to investigate (and only cooperated under intense pressure from survivors' families), what he thinks about Able Danger, and how he answers the legitimate questions raised here and elsewhere.

Thank you libs for showing America just how nuts you are!

I cant wait till Nov. You wouldnt mind bringing this up again and again next fall would you?

You wingnuts, accept any ridiculous story our government gives you. You are idiots! They can tell you any assinine story, and you'll believe it!!! You don't answer any of our questions with any proof.

Until the unanswered questions are addressed, Ricky, I assure you someone will be asking them in November and long afterward. With Bush at 29% in the polls, asking skeptical questions about his conduct will hardly be a political liability. You couldn't be more wrong about that...I suspect it's a case of the wish being mother to the thought, if you know what that expression means.

When Bush was around 50%, you were saying the same things about "libs" and "conspiracy nuts." Since then, another 21% has joined our side. Don't you feel a bit lonely out there?

Ingemar, #219

As a "white" girl, you need to give it a rest. It's "white" people that are the majority raising hell about 9/11. It was a majority of "white" people that were in DC contesting the vote in OHIO when African Americans were denied and shut out of voting.

WHERE were you? DC? I was.

Don't sit on your high horse and blame "white" people because there are some of us who have been fighting like hell for equal rights and justice for all.

"WHITE" people actually joined "black" people on the million man march in DC this year.

FYI some people of Caucasian AND African American ancestry actually DO stand together as Americans.

Ingemar, a LOT of us WHITE people, actually went down to the Gulf Coast, volunteered time and money.

Just because Ricky and Bush are stupid racist fascists, I don't appreciate you lumping many of us In with them. Get over yourself and your self pity and stand with actual Americans who do want liberty and justice for all.

P.S. Ricky, have your washed your brown shirt lately?

LINK : Too

Below is a link for a website of scholars for 9/11 truth. I think I believe these scholars, and not Ricky/Mike J/Bush Administration... The Bush administration has already proven themselves to be serial liars beyond a doubt.

Scholars For 9/11 Truth

Agent 99 - I took a look at the Raytheon site you linked. A Tomahawk cruise missile is 18 ft. 3 in. long and 20.4 in. in diameter.

As I have mentioned above, scaling things in the still pics that are of known height at the impact point and comparing to the "missile/plane" show that it must be approx 12 feet high and by implication 12 feet in diameter. Also the length of the "missile/plane" that is shown scales out to be approx. 100 ft. long.

By reversing this scaling process a Tomahawk with a 20 in. diameter would be approx 7.5 times smaller in diameter and 6 times shorter than what is seen in the video.

Could you explain how you arrived at your estimate of a 5 ft max diameter? Here's my method.

Toggle back a forth from the frame with the plane and the frame with the explosion to locate the impact point and therefore where to measure the building height. This is necessary since the height recedes with distance from the camera. Measure the height on your computer screen at the impact point. We know the real height is approx 60 ft.

On my screen the building measures 0.386 in. and the plane measures 0.083 in. high by 0.689 in. long.

The actual dimension scale out to be:(.083×60/.386=12.9 ft high) and (.689*60/.386=107 ft long)

I'm pretty sure that overhead depictions of the planes path have the plane traveling slightly towards the camera (not perpendicular to the camera) and is therfore slightly farther away in the images than the impact point on the building. This will create a slight error that will tend to underestimate the plane size, so 12 feet is a minimum diameter.

Unless you can find a flaw in the method or can show a good method that yields a different result there isn't much to argue about.

I'd like to know who did it. I think it is likely our government was invloved and I would love to prove it. I realize that if we could prove it was a missile that would be proof of who did it, but I think you are wasting your time and credibility. Let's try to settle this scientifically and move on to more productive efforts to get to the truth.

Fine, we can put the matter to rest right now, based on this video.

Someone estimate for us the DISTANCE this video is relative to the point of impact. If I were guessing, I would say maybe a football field, give or take? Does it seem closer than that?

I don't and can't honestly tell.

Now if we go by the measurements of a Boeing 757, roughly its height and length, we'll have a pretty good idea, I would say. Right?

Based on the video I see, something just doesn't LOOK right to me.

If it is a missile, where was it fired from, and who fired it?

Also, is there a single credible eye witness to seeing this missile before during ior after impact, because there are numerous credible witnesses who saw Flight 77 heading to and striking the Pentagon...

COMMENT #81 by: JEFF "Freedom of speech goes two way, mine and yours."

Wake up call Jeff. You may just barley have you freedom of speech but if the Bush Administration continues along its errosion of our constitution , No one will soon be alble to enjoy any debates against our government....

COMMENT #227 by Jeff: "If it is a missile, where was it fired from, and who fired it?

Also, is there a single credible eye witness to seeing this missile before during ior after impact, because there are numerous credible witnesses who saw Flight 77 heading to and striking the Pentagon..."
Now I happen to disbelive what the official story of the 9/11 commision report , but here Jeff makes some very cleaver points... Although maybe the witness of seeing the Flight 77 were working in or WITH the government ? Jeff there are just to many flaws pointing in the other direction that add up much easier. **EVERYONE SHOULD @ LEAST VIEW THESE TWO INCREDIBLE DOCUMENTARYS NO MATTER WHAT THE BELIVE NOW !! *********
http://video.google.com/...362123&q=9/11+reopen
http://video.google.com/...63801&q=loose+change

Will somebody please produce one eys witness to a missile approaching and /or striking the Pentagon on 9/11? I'm waiting...

Uh . . yah Jeff many different accounts by many different people, describing a "small plane", a large jet . . . So if you lived near here you would know there were many different versions and accounts of what people thought they saw.

I don't blame you for not wanting to believe the awful truth. I really don't want to believe it either, but it is the truth.

COMMENT #227 by Jeff: "If it is a missile, where was it fired from, and who fired it?

Also, is there a single credible eye witness to seeing this missile before during ior after impact, because there are numerous credible witnesses who saw Flight 77 heading to and striking the Pentagon..."

Now I happen to disbelive what the official story of the 9/11 commision report , but here Jeff makes some very cleaver points... Although maybe the witness of seeing the Flight 77 were working in or WITH the government ?
Jeff there are just to many flaws with the official 9/11
commision report, & too many more belivable alternatives that point in the other direction that add up much easier. **EVERYONE SHOULD @ LEAST VIEW THESE TWO INCREDIBLE DOCUMENTARYS NO MATTER WHAT THE BELIVE NOW !! *********
http://video.google.com/...362123&q=9/11+reopen
http://video.google.com/...63801&q=loose+change

You know, if there were no witnesses who saw a plane approach and strike the Pentagon, I'd possibly be willing to consider that a missile hit the Pentagon on 9/11, but the only missile I'd consider would be one fired by our enemies. I'm not even willing to consider that the US Military/Government fired a missile at the Pentagon, killed hundreds and told us it was a plane. That's just crazy talk by crazy people.

The eyes have it.

THANK YOU LIBERALS. PLEASE GO TO EVERY BLOG SITE IN THE WORLD AND SHOUT THIS STUFF FROM THE ROOF TOPS. I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT "YOU GET YOUR MESSAGE OUT"

SAY IT LOUDER, PLEASE!!!!!

See you in NOV!

! WELL PUT ! Comment # 231 JPentz

Uh . . yah Jeff many different accounts by many different people, describing a "small plane", a large jet . . . So if you lived near here you would know there were many different versions and accounts of what people thought they saw.

I DONT BLAME YOU FOR NOT WANTING TO BELIVE THE AWFUL TRUTH. I really don't want to believe it either, but it is the truth.

There may be many versions of what different people saw on 9/11 but nobody claims to have seen a missile. They all describe a plane. It's very simple really. Terrorists hijacked 4 planes on 9/11, one crashed into the Pentagon.

The IslamoFascist terrorists really have us by the balls if a good number of Americans actually think that our own government attacked us on 9/11. Good gief people, wake up, the real enemy is gathering strength and counting on your inability to recognize the real threat.

COMMENT #233 By:
JEFF "I'd possibly be willing to consider that a missile hit the Pentagon on 9/11, but the only missile I'd consider would be one fired by our enemies. I'm not even willing to consider that the US Military/Government fired a missile at the Pentagon, killed hundreds and told us it was a plane. That's just crazy talk by crazy people."

I really like what Jeff is say here , It makes everyone fell "Patriotic" We ALL want to be that , (But we also dont want to be Niave or Brainwashed by anyone including our own government, which has a LONG history of lying to the American people) , lying to the American people IS UNPATRIOTIC. If we all keep doing our research in both avenues , the TRUTH will eventually come out. God may be the only one right now who know what exactly happened that HORRIFIC day!

What's the matter Ricky? Kids on the 'short bus' kick you off for being too stupid again?

The fact is its no longer about Dems & Republicans or Liberals & Conservatives. Corrupt factions within both parties work together. Whether or not this corrupt collective represent the interests of 'Globalists' the 'Illuminati', or some other secretive fascist society matters little.

Troll's like Ricky would prefer to divide & concur… incite people using traditional stereotypical politics. But then, that’s all simple-minded folk like Ricky have left… Hoping that we'll be foolish enough to fight with one another – distract us from our real enemies.

No Ricky…
Today is about honest Americans who give a shit what their Government & Military (claim to) do in their name, and that of America, Freedom & Liberty... It’s about the Constitution of the United States of America…

" The Constitution of the United States is a law for rulers and people, equally in war and peace, and covers with the shield of its protection all classes of men, at all times, and under all circumstances. No doctrine involving more pernicious consequences was ever invented by the wit of man than that any of its provisions can be suspended during any of the great exigencies of government. Such a doctrine leads directly to anarchy or despotism.”
- The Supreme Court of the United States, 1866

Being patriotic does not mean blindly & unquestioningly endorsing or following the orders of elected officials within Government. GOVERNMENT IS DIRECTED BY THE PEOPLE - not the other way round!

"Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action."
- Geroge Washinton, 1790

Make no mistake... The real terrorists occupy our Government, Military, Secret Agencies and Corporate structures. Without privy intelligence, aid in planning, financing & direction 9/11 could not have occurred.

But Ricky wouldn’t understand this… even if it came up and bit him on the ass. Simpleton dumb-ass troll!

Jeff,
Several people also saw a jet veer off and NOT hit the Pentagon. I'd like you to answer how Bush saw the first plane hit the WTC when it was NOT televised. He said this TWICE in public. Isn't it possible someone else, with a live feed to the Bush team, was filming that day? If so, the whole thing was planned by our government or allowed to happen. Only the most evil people would capitalize on the 9/11 tragedy as the Bush administration has. They are accomplishing everything they want because of the results of the events of that day. How much more obvious can they get?

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There's an easy solution to resolving this issue, Jeff. Show us the video that shows us a plane hitting the Pentagon.

(BTW, I lean against the missile theory --- but with this administration, I need hard visual proof to be completely satisfied.)
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Jeff, again, I don't blame you for not wanting to believe something so terrible. you do not live near here to know there was no plane wreckage and about what did not exist at the Pentagon.

A jet? No. Convincing themselves it existed because the truth is too terrible. I don't blame them.

I do. Sorry to break it to you. You need to believe your lying eyes. We the People need to stop being in innocent denial of what is really going on.

I'm not sure what "jet" you see in any Pentagon video at all.

"I really like what Jeff is say here , It makes everyone fell "Patriotic" We ALL want to be that , (But we also dont want to be Niave or Brainwashed by anyone including our own government, which has a LONG history of lying to the American people) , lying to the American people IS UNPATRIOTIC. If we all keep doing our research in both avenues , the TRUTH will eventually come out. God may be the only one right now who know what exactly happened that HORRIFIC day!"

Agreed.

Big Dan says, "The Bush administration has already proved (to be) serial liars without a doubt."

Exactly the point about all this. Conspiracy theories always abound in a climate of lies and obfuscation. The same thing happened when J.F.K. was assassinated; L.B.J. told the Warren Commission what he wanted it to find, it cooperated, and the public replied, "We want the truth, not a cover-up!"

In that case, the Zapruder film proved that Oswald could not have been a lone assassin (though it didn't prove he was innocent). In spite of this crystal-clear evidence that a shot was fired from the grassy knoll area, "non-conspiracy theorists" have gradually succeeded in convincing people (though not a majority) that Oswald acted alone.

The usual slander against conspiracy theorists is that they can't accept simple explanations for tragic events, like J.F.K.'s murder and 9/11, because their emotions won't allow them to accept our vulnerability to random acts of violence by crazed individuals or small groups of zealots.

This is a contrived argument. I'd posit the opposite, that those who resist conspiracy theories (and can look at the Zapruder film and still argue Oswald was a lone assassin, absurdly) have a paralyzing need for normalcy. They fear the unknown. Devils in our midst and unresolved cases make them very uncomfortable. Healthy skeptics thus become moonbats and "silly liberals." It's psychological.

COMMENT #233 By:
JEFF "I'd possibly be willing to consider that a missile hit the Pentagon on 9/11, but the only missile I'd consider would be one fired by our enemies. I'm not even willing to consider that the US Military/Government fired a missile at the Pentagon, killed hundreds and told us it was a plane. That's just crazy talk by crazy people."

I REALLY like what Jeff is saying here , It makes everyone fell "Patriotic" We ALL want to be that , (But we also dont want to be Niave or Brainwashed by anyone including our own government, which has a LONG history of lying to the American people) , lying to the American people IS UNPATRIOTIC. If we all keep doing our research in both avenues , the TRUTH will eventually come out. God may be the only one right now who know what exactly happened that HORRIFIC day!

I watched the video twice this morning. It is missing a huge chunk of footage right out of the middle. This does not allay conspiracy theorists' fears that this was an inside job at all! An enhanced version straight from the CIA might. But, alas, we are handed this grainy copy of what millions of us have already seen on the Internet for years now. Whoo-hoo! The United States government has reaffirmed by belief that they serve only themselves. Fuck us.

"their emotions won't allow them to accept our vulnerability to random acts of violence by crazed individuals or small groups of zealots."

Not only that, we have heard Osama Bin Laden deny having taken part in 9/11. If he is such an egotist, wouldn't he want to take credit for it? Some on the right say he won't do that because he doesn't want "his country" attacked. What country is that, Saudi Arabia? Not a chance in hell! Bush is practically a member of the ruling family.

Let's assume the gas station video clearly shows a plane approaching and striking the Pentagon.

I can't believe that nobody can seem to understand why such a video must not yet be release to the world. Sure we all want to see it, but can you all stop thinking about yourselves for a minute and try to see the bigger picture?

Someday when we have defeated the Islamo Fascists and their evil scurge is removed from the world as the Nazis were 60 years ago, the time will come, as it alwys does in FREE AMERICA, to show the people what once could not be seen.

Jeff,

What is it with you? You keep asking for examples that you well know are difficult if not impossible to provide? Meanwhile there are many numerous and readily available facts, including (broken) laws of physics which need to be explained in order for the official stories to be credible.

So... you give the 'official' accounts of events a pass. Even though every time someone wants to verify information 'homeland security' is thrown up as a catch-all as to why the Government needn't prove its assertions with facts & science.

Similar to your own line of questioning...
Prove that you're not a disinformation agent.

For the record, my IQ is 140.

Ricky's and Mike J's and Jeff's are around Bush's IQ level. At the level, where Bush had to wear a name tag when he recently met with autistic children, so they could tell him apart from them.

"Prove that you're not a disinformation agent."

Oh please. :doze:

Boeing 757

Engine weight: about 40,000 lbs. each (36,600 - 43,500 lbs depending on type)
Wing span: about 124 feet
Tail Height: 44 ft 6 in.
Body Width: 12 ft 4 in.

The above can be confirmed at this link, and here [pdf].

What I would like Ari and the other aeronautical engineer types to do is explain, microsecond by microsecond, how the envent unfolded.

The nose of the aircraft contacts the building. Collapse of the nose, pilot cabin, and the forward area of the aircraft forward of the wings begins. It starts to crumple and compress.

About 60 feet of fuselage must compact and compress before the forward tips of the engines make contact with the building, and approximately 64 feet must compact before the leading edges of the wings make contact with the building.

Shock waves and resistance begins to transfer thru the main structures of the fuselage backwards sixty some feet toward the engines and wings. And back toward the entire fuselage.

The forward momentum of the two engines attached to the wings, begins to put stress on the areas where the engines are attached to the wings, and where the wings are attached to the fuselage.

This pressure increases as the thrust of the engines presses forward and the stress and resistance presses backward along the 60 feet of the fuselage towards the engines and wings.

Why would or would not the wings or engines sheer off and travel toward the building?

The engines are probably the toughest and most difficult to destroy. They are composed of the most advanced metals, and often are the parts that are visible even when the rest of an aircraft has been destroyed in many aviation disaster scenes.

They would seem to be the most likely to penetrate the building, but there is only one hole in the building, not three, in the early photos. It would seem that each one of the engines could make a large hole in most buildings, and even at the pentagon, large indentations.

Have you done any calculations on the angular momentum that would be extant with two 40,000 lb advanced metal devices propelled by incredible thrust, and what that momentum and thrust would do when the wings suddenly stop forward movement?

It is hardly likely that they would go backwards and get in line to go thru a 16' hole along with the remainder of the fuselage ...

Thank you to all of you for great information and leads to sites to more information.

What made me start to think about 9/11 being an inside job was the phone call from a son to his mom from a plane supposedly flying above 35,000 feet.

Why would a son state his full name to his mom and then ask if she believed it was him ? None of my kids, one in Iraq, ever, ask if I believe its them whatever time they call. Moms know the voice, and can tell if there is something wrong just from the tone.

So not a scientific thing but highly unusual.

Someone asked what happened to all the people in the plane. A plane can land, disembark passengers, passengers are murdered. After all when 3,000 are killed senselessly what are a few hundred more. Pyschopaths have no conscience
a life is nothing to them its just a game.

So for those who need to believe that 9/11 was pulled off by an outside force, nothing will change your mind. Just keep pulling those covers over your head and everything will be alright.

In the end, guess who will be protecting the sheep?

Thank you Brad for allowing the ones who want to educate themselves a forum to do so.

I'm enjoying most of you folks the same way I enjoy the Riley Martin show on Howard 100 on SIRIUS.

http://www.thecomingoftan.com/

TexasLady #253

A cell phone, in 2001, at 35,000 feet moving at 300 or more mph, will not work.

Even with a few years of improvement, still won't, over rural Pennsylvania.

"Let's roll" did not happen on a cell phone like the original stories portrayed.

Just like Atta's passport did not survive, as the official story on the first day said, when the black boxes were also said to have not survived.

Being Canadian, I don't know much about the Pentagon or it's location and geography. I also never gave the conspiracy theories a second thought, but I think this video is only going to feed those conspiracy theorists.

I mean, I find it hard to believe a 757 dropped from the sky at 600 mph, levelled off right above the ground (or possibly even touched down) and flew/drove perfectly horizontal into the building. Those videos look like the plane is almost driving on the ground it is so low.

I also find it hard to believe that an object moving so fast as to be little more than a blur on camera, and fast enough to be completely vaporized, didn't do more damage than what was actually there.

Indeed there is the "cell phone" issue at those altitudes.

You could ask Ricky or Jeff to provide us with information on cell phone reception at different altitudes, but they don't feel like they should have to provide real information. Funny how they feel stating their opinion makes them believe it is fact. Like how they see a plane. Its scary really that there are people that gullible and drone like.

Ricky is a "loyalist' not a patriot. It's a kind of sick fascination to watch or listen to someone like him.

Brad, although I don't post here much as of late, I visit every day.

Like Texas Lady, I appreciate you providing such a great forum for discussing these important issues.

COMMENT #248 By: Jeff.

"Someday when we have defeated the Islamo Fascists and their evil scurge is removed from the world as the Nazis were 60 years ago, the time will come, as it alwys does in FREE AMERICA, to show the people what once could not be seen."

This is RIDICULOUS & so isnt you comment # 46:

"we all want to see it to know for sure it was a plane but who really thinks it's a wise idea to release such a video to the world showing a succesfull attack by Arab terrorists on the military headquarters of the United States of America?

Maybe someday in the future it will be OK to release the video but not while we are at war with these scumbags should we release a video showing their greatest achievement.,"
********************************************
IN RESPONSE TO THOSE TWO STATEMENT BY JEFF:
********************************************
Stupid comments because neither side of the issue knows that it was the "Arab Terrorists" for sure on this one, & by hidding that IMPARITIVE information, our government just loose there case automatically - for most Americans who can see past the "PSEUDO PATRIOTISM" thats so damn thick right now!! The government should hand that tape from the gas station right over, if they in fact had nothing to hid , Furthermore, its the right of EVERY FAMILY who's loved ones died to have FULL access to ALL & ANYTHING that may give them the TRUTH & help them deal with their losses.

If dissent and questioning is not "appropriate" can dictatorship be far behind?

If one iota of truth has come from this administration from 2000, it would be easier to accept their story of 9/11.

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Jeff said:

I can't believe that nobody can seem to understand why such a video must not yet be release to the world. Sure we all want to see it, but can you all stop thinking about yourselves for a minute and try to see the bigger picture?

What's the "bigger picture", Jeff?

Why can't the Pentagon release the video?

Don't give us vague generalities --- tell us specifically why it would jeopardize the U.S. security to release that video that clearly shows a plane hitting the pentagon?
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What it IS is far less important to me than what it ISN'T.

Contrary to the completely orchestrated mainstream media / government coordinated disinformation campaign that was launched against "Oui The Sheeple" yesterday, during which virtually EVERY talking head read directly from the exact same government provided script, this video clearly demonstrates that NO 757 hit the Pentagon.

Whatever it IS, it was clearly trailing a plume of white smoke:

COMMENT #215 [link]
...STOP George said on 5/17/2006 @ 4:10am PT...

https://bradblog.com/arc...2834.htm#comments...

757 engines at sea level DO NOT SMOKE. Nor is there a contrail at sea level.

The video camera that shot this footage is no more than six feet above the pavement.

The trees in the distance are no more than are NOT EVER OBSCURED by the object flying in front of those trees.

The distance from the camera to the flying object is likely at least as great as the distance from the flying object back to the trees in the distance.

A 757 is 45' tall.

The object in the video appears to be flying about 3' off the deck.

A 757 would have totally obscured the view of the trees in the distance as it passed through the frame.

It didn't.

The government lied about this video, and every single talking head on the MSM did too.

This video clearly demonstrates what DID NOT HAPPEN.

The Media and the government conspired in the greatest act of deception ever coordinated to defraud the American people yesterday when this video was released and reported upon.

If you want to know what didn't happen, listen to your government.

Do you really need to know what DID happen in order to demand an end to this coup?

Aren't the lies enough?

The bigger picture is that we are war with a dedicated, ruthless enemy who hates us and wants to kill us all.

You want the world (an our enemies) to see how vulnerable we actually are, that our military HQ can be hit by a hijacjed jet? Such a video will be shown someday but that day is not today nor should it be.

Comfort yourself in knowing that you want EXACTLY what our enemies want which is for that video to be released and used by our enemies as a propaganda film showing what a succesfull attack against the US Military headquarters looks like.

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Jeff said:

The bigger picture is that we are war with a dedicated, ruthless enemy who hates us and wants to kill us all.

Comfort yourself in knowing that you want EXACTLY what our enemies want which is for that video to be released and used by our enemies as a propaganda film showing what a succesfull attack against the US Military headquarters looks like.

NEWSFLASH, Jeff! They already know how "vulnerable" you are.

Thanks for not answering my question.

I'll answer it for you. A video that shows a plane hitting the Pentagon is no different from a video that shows a plane hitting the WTC towers. It will NOT aid the terrorists in any meaningful way and it is a ridiculous argument to even consider. In fact, why would they even need this video when they have the greatest PR recruitment event in the history of terrorism --- namely, the Iraq Invasion.
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I went back and carefully viewed plunger's slow animated version. You can clearly see something long and dark shoot out of the plane which is somewhat nose-down. The missile first hits the ground, kicks up debris, and then heads for the Pentagon. The plane then follows it into the hole.

I have always been a believer that there were only two planes using possibly 10 highjackers actually used to crash into buildings. The other two planes were not highjacked but remotely controlled and destroyed over the Atlantic. And what of the two planes that made emergency landings at Cleveland Hopkins Airport? Mayor Michael White made the announcement that they landed there. I live near Cleveland, so I want the truth about that.

COMMENT #262 By: JEFF:
"You want the world (an our enemies) to see how vulnerable we actually are, that our military HQ can be hit by a hijacjed jet? Such a video will be shown someday but that day is not today nor should it be."
************RESPONSE**********************
If in fact a the Hi jacked jet did hit the Pentagon, then I can see your point Jeff , Your right on the VULNERABLE point. But then ask yourself WHY , WHY were we VULNERABLE that day!! You just hit the nail on the head Jeff, we were vulnerable because Dick Cheney & company were completly aware of what was going down & chose to have war games & disperse our Military off far enough so that we were UNABLE to protect ourselves, & THIS is were the questions start -then lead to the other bigger questions.

Nicholas,

The incompetence of this Administration is a given.

Stop George,

A hijacked plane hitting the Pentagon is very different than a plane hitting the WTC. Think about it like a chess game. On 9/11, our Queen was attacked and our King was placed in check.

The WTC buildings were like Rooks.

The probelm is that on 9/11, the other side attacked us with our own pieces.

I find it odd that you would trust those who DID NOT prevent this attack, Jeff. It was THEY who left us vulnerable if an actual attack did take place. And many who were involved (or at the very least didn't stop this )have been rewarded and promoted! No one was fired except those who have tried to expose the truth. No CEO in his right mind rewards the worst employees, unless they are part of the illegal activities that have taken place.

Where did I say I trusted the Bush Administration?

See my post #36, from yesterday.

Jeff - How would releasing more videos of the plane hitting the Pentagon be aiding the terriorsts?
If they did this, they know how they did it.

Do you have any answers to the question about Bush stating he had seen the first plane hit the WTC?

How about my question on cell phone calls from the plane?

What about the 'put calls' on United's stock?

Why did Bush have to appear with Cheney at the commission once it was allowed to form after two years of stonewalling by Bush.

Jeff, in a crime, you need to see who benefitted from the crime and follow the money. How did Osama benefit? WHO HAS MADE BILLIONS OF AMERICAN MONEY FROM THE CRIME?

Osama is on the run....Afganistan and Iraq are in ruins......Halliburton is racking in the money, Cheney is worth 90 million (on paper) and Bush 20 million. Bush was a failed businessman until he became a failed governor.

SO WHO ARE THE WINNERS?

You don't promote and advertise the war crimes of your enemies while at war with them. Period. End of story. If you don't understand this, I cannot explain it to you anymore.

Terrorits used a hijacked plane to hit the military heaquarters of the United States of America. This was a wildly succesfull (albeit illegal and dishonorable) attack on the US by a terrorist group.

Airing such now a video would be aiding the enemy.

I'm sorry you can't grasp that.

Hey Jeff, hunt the Boeing.

"Why?" in your professional opinion would the FBI confiscate the Hotel video and the gas station video and then also release a video showing no plane.

I'm sorry, I do not get your logic.

First, this is more smoke and mirrors. This video was shown on CNN in 2002. It's not a new release.

Between immigration and this . . "look over here stuff", maybe the rest of us should be "looking over there" where they do not want us too.

JEFF REALLY, PLEASE DO TELL AT WHAT ALTITUDES SKY PHONES AND AIR PHONES GET RECEPTION. PLEASE DO CALL AN AIRLINE AND ASK. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH FOR ONCE INSTEAD OF REPEATING THE MEDIA'S Talking POINTS.

PLEASE DO give me some facts you researched yourself and DO tell me why you believe the government must hide the Boeing?

Please PROVE me wrong. I would like to be proved wrong on this and believe as simply as you do.

Call me simpleminded if you like but if you think the US government pulled off the 9/11 attack and the dictatorship is coming and there is nothing we can do, because we are all so powerless to King George, then I would suggest you leave the country now.

And Jeff. Have you ever given any thought to why Mohammad Atta and others were trained at military installations within the U.S., given favors such as gambling, prostitutes, and partying on Abramoff's cuise line, and were not investigated by Able Danger at the behest of high-ranking officials at the Pentagon? I suppose you think they thought Atta was their best friend and that they were duped by him on 9/11. Yeah, right.

Jeff , Im glad to see we are on the same side, we both know the bush administration needs to be Stopped, & we both want the REAL truth to what happened. thats a start.

Also I agree with alot of what your saying, I just know that there was total incompetence on ALL levels that day, it makes NO SENSE !! I do understand your points in #266 & agree if its all as simple as you would like to put it, then your other points I tend to disagree with are very valid. But I know there is much more then meets the eye that most Americans (cant , or maybe wont) even think about because its just to damn upsetting & outrageous. But may in fact be the truth. Only by having different points of views does anything get accomplished to solving of any mysterys.
I love my country sincerly & that is why I want EVERY avenue looked @ until we have a clear understanding of what did indeed transpire on that HORRIFIC day. I belive & God & pray about this alot. Plus family in the military fighting a war in Iraq which never should of happend , not for the reasons the Bush Administration claims anyway. Im SICK to Death Of lies & corruption coming from the bush Administration, this in not what our forefathers would be very proud of
this country deserves MUCH better leaders who can bring back our respect here which other countries USED to have for us. The bush Administration needs to stop lying about saying were concerned about everyone elses freedom, while we continue to loose ours right here.

Terrorist pilot Mohammad Atta blew up a bus in Israel in 1986. The Israelis captured, tried and imprisoned him. As part of the Oslo agreement with the Palestinians in 1993, Israel had to agree to release so-called "political prisoners."

However, the Israelis would not release any with blood on their hands, The American President at the time, Bill Clinton, and his Secretary of State, Warren Christopher, "insisted" that all prisoners be released.

Thus Mohammad Atta was freed and eventually thanked the US by flying an airplane into Tower One of the World Trade Center. This was reported by many of the American TV networks at the time that the terrorists were first identified.
It was censored in the US from all later reports.

Jeff , Im glad to see we are on the same side, we both know the bush administration needs to be Stopped, & we both want the REAL truth to what happened. thats a start.

Also I agree with alot of what your saying, I just know that there was total incompetence on ALL levels that day, it makes NO SENSE !! I do understand your points in #266 & agree if its all as simple as you would like to put it, then your other points I tend to disagree with are very valid. But I know there is much more then meets the eye that most Americans (cant , or maybe wont) even think about because its just to damn upsetting & outrageous. But may in fact be the truth. Only by having different points of views does anything get accomplished to solving of any mysterys.
I love my country sincerly & that is why I want EVERY avenue looked @ until we have a clear understanding of what did indeed transpire on that HORRIFIC day. I belive & God & pray about this alot. Plus family in the military fighting a war in Iraq which never should of happend , not for the reasons the Bush Administration claims anyway. Im SICK to Death Of lies & corruption coming from the bush Administration, this in not what our forefathers would be very proud of
this country deserves MUCH better leaders who can bring back our respect here which other countries USED to have for us. The bush Administration needs to stop lying about saying were concerned about everyone elses freedom, while we continue to loose ours freedoms right here.

Jpentz #257

Indeed. The cell phone technology is composed of ground stations, and the cell phone unit itself.

If the cell phone transmits to a ground station, that station determines what the next station might be if you are moving, and contacts the next station to pass on the information so the call will not be dropped.

When speed is involved, even 70 mph at times, will cause a cascade (too many stations trying to figure out direction and who should handle it - but can't) which will cause a dropped call (link here).

At several hundred miles per hour at 36000 feet a cascade is assured, assuming any station could be contacted at all in the first instance.

More likely that many stations would fight for first contact thinking they were first, and hence a cascade, or a failure to make a first contact.

Here is a link that explains "handover" or "handoff".

Some experiments confirm this: see this link and this link

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Stop George,

The probelm is that on 9/11, the other side attacked us with our own pieces.

And again, what does releasing the video have to do with aiding the terrorists?

You describe what happened --- the WTC towers and the Pentagon were all attacked. Nobody argues that. Bushco. allowed this to happen and, yes, it is great PR for terrorists around the world.

However, releasing a video that shows the plane does not make what happened at the Pentagon any more symbolic to these people. In fact, it is more advantageous for the Pentagon to release this video in terms of American perception at this time. The fact that they won't makes one seriously consider what they're hiding.

We've seen the destruction.

We've seen the explosion of the impact.

All that we haven't seen is the plane.

Why is showing the Pentagon plane akin to giving the terrorists some kind of magical propaganda?

I do not understand your logic, Jeff.
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"I do not understand your logic, Jeff."

That's OK, you don't really need to.

Jeff I did not call you simple minded. however, you did not answer my question about cell and sky phones. I was sure when I mentioned researching it and getting the facts from either a cell phone company or the airline, you would NOT do so. I was absolutely POSITIVE and SURE you would not do so and tell us your findings.

Thank you Dredd ((hugs)) You rock my friend.

"But the proles, if only they could somehow become conscious of their own strength, would have no need to conspire. They needed only to rise up and shake themselves like a horse shaking off flies" - G. Orwell, 1984

I fail to see what cell phone calls and sky phone calls have to do with anything other than that you must think such phone calls are impossible. I don't have time to debate such trivial matters, gimme a break...

Do you believe in God and/or Jesus?

Jeff,

I am only going to direct one comment to you, as you have already wasted the time and energy of many intelligent and brave people on this blog.

Your unequivocal stance that you have already identified an 'enemy' and his/her 'motives' is unacademic. Therefore, because you have not heeded the questions and rebuttals to date, you do not deserve to be part of this conversation.

Here is a last chance, Jeff (and all others like you) This is Pentagon video is only ONE video. IT'S THE @*&^%!ING PENTAGON! There aren't any other video cameras? Satellite views? Security eyewitnesses? This is the center of military power! There are quite a few cameras around the local Walmart! I just don't buy that there isn't more footage which would show the whole picture more clearly. DO NOT BOTHER USING "SECURITY" AS A REBUTTAL. That is a cop out and you know it. The truth is just as powerful a weapon as any hidden missle battery/any other security measure that the Pentagon doesn't want us to see that 'failed'.

I don't understand what all the fuss is about this really, really poor quality video, of which one frame could be argued resembles a plane. Why aren't people clamoring for better footage? I would bet there where DOZENS of cameras that caught the event. What about footage a little further away? Why haven't we seen any footage of the plane flying toward it?

Jeff, you CANNOT use the arguement that clamoring for better footage 'helps' the enemy. The point of this is trying to figure out WHO the enemy is!! You have not sourced any of your arguements about why you believe it even was Islamofacists, you just parrot the administration. THEREFORE, you are either so hopelessly naive that you should not be allowed to continue debating with us on this blog, OR you are in fact working for agents of a coverup. I sincerely hope it is not the latter.

Of course there are more/better videos of the plane flying around and/or hitting the Pentagon but the government has seized them and with good reason.

It's called National Security.

Someday, when the war is over, maybe you will be able to see them. I'm overjoyed that you can't have what the terrorists want.

Jeff,

You have just demonstrated that you are not capable of debating this subject rationally.

YOU should be seized in the name of national security.

Hmmm...

Interesting comments, but who's this Jeff character and why has Ari stopped posting?

Jeff = Ari = Wally O'Diebold?

Anybody else getting this vibe, or am I all alone on this one?

Does BradBlog have it's own personal chameleon to shill for the official lines on everything to keep us off-balance?

I wonder...

Agent99 #200 -

I'm with you...

You stink, Jeff.

To show open minded status, I post a link showing that some 911 conspiracy theorists, including the US government's 9/11 Commission, do believe the Pentagon was hit by a 757 ... or that the evidence supports that notion.

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"I do not understand your logic, Jeff."

Jeff said:
That's OK, you don't really need to.

Hmm...where have I heard that before?
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Jeff, the enemy is Bush...if it's an inside job. Ever think of that?

THIS EXPLAINS IT.

The type of aircraft and engines used to attack the Pentagon.

This shows the Raytheon connection to 9/11.

THE ANSWER:

http://www.rense.com/general70/safe.htm

It was this collaborative approach that led Jon and I to conclude that no 757 hit the Pentagon so we looked for alternatives. The only plane that made sense was either a 737 or an A3 Skywarrior, both of which can use the same types of jet engines up to a point.

The wing span of most 737 jets fall into the range of between 93.0 ft and 112.6 ft which is still 19 feet to 38 feet of wing that cannot be accounted for in impacting the face of the Pentagon before it mysteriously disappeared. When the absence of surface impacts and the size of a 737 including height of the tail are weighed, it is probable that a smaller plane was used to affect the attack on the Pentagon.

I defy anyone to find an A3 Skywarrior in the hands of any Arab terrorist on 9-11 or any other day. There are only three sources of those jets: 1.) a few (3 to 6) remaining in USAF inventory; or 2.) Davis Monthan AFB where many jets are stored due to lack of humidity; or 3.) the fleet of 12-15 once owned by Hughes and now controlled by Raytheon after that corporation acquired Hughes.

Jon Carlson and I are convinced that the plane used to attack the Pentagon is an old USAF / Navy plane designated as the A3 Skywarrior.

The wingspan of an A3 is 74 feet and in the Navy version the wings were designed to fold up for storage on an aircraft carrier (visible on the drawing above). At a distance, painted like an American Airlines plane, this plane would easily be mistaken for a 737, 757, 767 type of aircraft because the two engines hang under the wing but are of far smaller dimensions than the 9 foot diameter jets on a 757 that not only hang under the wing but also hang lower than the bottom of the fuselage.

That is an important point because there were no marks on the Pentagon lawn of those two jet engines dragging the ground and they would have based on how low the Pentagon was hit. Said another way, forget about the fuselage dragging on the ground. The engines of a 757 would have been plowing the Pentagon lawn but that did not happen.

The wingspan of a 757 is 124 feet 10 inches. The width of the overall opening, even what is visible as possible wing marks slamming into the face of the building is closer to 74 feet than it is 124 feet 10 inches. In short, there is 50 feet missing to substantiate the Official Lie put out by Washington, DC as to what hit the Pentagon. Said another way, there is 25 feet on each side of the centerline of the strike point (that 14-16 foot hole left in the side of the Pentagon) that left no evidence of a wider wing span 757 hitting the building.

They also cannot (or more appropriately will not) explain what happened to the two 9 foot diameter engines that mysteriously disappeared. Some official government sources claim that the fire was so hot it melted the engines to nothing, yet they claim they found DNA of the passengers. That math does not compute, or the science either.

I remember the first conversation I had with Karen Kwiatkowski, a retired Lieutenant Colonel who was in the Pentagon that day. She is the lady that went public about the Office of Special Plans where they were falsifying the intelligence regarding Iraq. She vividly remembers being downstairs and around the corner in about 10 minutes to help get people out and the FBI agents were at the CITGO station confiscating the video tapes of what hit the Pentagon.

Other eyewitnesses have stated that they smelled explosives such as cordite, not burning jet fuel. Those were military witnesses that know that exploded ordnance smells like.

What little video evidence there is does show a white trail of smoke before the Pentagon explosion. Jet fuel burns dark at sea level and jets do not leave white contrails at sea level. What does leave a white trail of smoke at all elevations is the solid fuel of a rocket, Thiokol in most rockets being the type of solid fuel.

Dredd,

I checked out the link. One thing that stuck out at me was the conclusion seemed to put emphasis on the eyewitness accounts of people seeing a 757 hit the Pentagon, but there was only one quote listed. I personally don't consider that enough to be supporting evidence.

As for responding to people like Jeff-Can all of us on here who are actually communicating in a reasonable way agree to ignore him? I think that will help make him go away.

I don't believe this video proves a thing, one way or the other, but it sure has taken the spotlight off of Karl Rove and Dick Cheney who despite having high IQ's in deceit, have very low IQ's in any form of common sense or decency!

Do I believe somebody in the Bush administration helped 911 happen directly or indirectly?

WITHOUT A DOUBT IN MY MIND!

As for responding to people like Skeptical-Can all of us on here who are actually communicating in a reasonable way agree to ignore him? I think that will help make him go away.

Dov S. Zakheim was sworn in as the Under Secretary of Defense (Comptroller) and Chief Financial Officer for the Department of Defense on May 4, 2001.

Left the Bush Administration in mid-2004 for Booz Allen.

How Does Zakheim Fit In ?

He helped mold the Mid-East policy, and controlled the Pentagon purse strings.

Thanks to him, Israel, and their militia (Turkey), are awash in F-15's, F-16's, and the latest in offensive and defensive missile systems. Israel has a space program, ICBM's, nukes, and lots more.

Zakheim, who is a dual Israeli/American citizen and a Shul Rabbi, has stalked the halls of US government for 25 yrs. He has set defense policy which influenced Presidents Reagan, Clinton and Bush Sr. and Jr. This rabid Zionist was the controller of the Pentagon when an audit discovered over a trillion dollars was missing.

Most of Israel's armament was obtained thanks to him. Squads of US F-16 and F-15 were classified as military surplus and sold to Israel at a fraction of their value.

Zakheim is a rabid Zionist, who carries an Israel passport and is considered to be one of the top members of the secretive Illuminati . He predicts 9/11 and by sheer coincidence the Pentagon is hit by a remote controlled jet (Zakheim's ' SPC ' corporation is the premier company in the field).

http://www.sysplan.com/Radar/FTS

During his tenure as controller at the Pentagon from May 4, 2001 to March 10, 2004, over one trillion dollars was unaccounted for.

Military information is jeopardized, military contractors billed the US for Israeli items, $50 million fighter jets are classified as surplus and the list goes on and on. As the scandal of the missing 3 trillion dollars surfaces the Rabbi quickly resigns.

According to the US Government's own website which is specifically designed to debunk conspiracy theories:

http://usinfo.state.gov/.../2005/Jun/28-581634.html

With regard to the World Trade Center attacks, Mr. Meyssan ignores or dismisses the facts that:

"THE GOVERNMENT DECLARES):

"Boeing commercial aircraft can not be remotely controlled"

This assertion is false.

Dov Zakheim was the Pentagon's comptroller and CFO during 9/11. Over $3 trillion is unaccounted for during his tenure. He was (is?) Corporate VP at System Planning Corporation, a major player in the "Homeland Security" industry. One of the products that SysPlan sells is the Command Transmitter System, a remote control system for planes, boats, missiles and other vehicles2 . It's highly customable and configurable to interface with an almost limitless number of vehicle types.

The CTS is a tunable UHF FM transmitter designed for ground use in controlling guided missiles, pilotless aircraft and pilotless boats.

Many takeoff and lending tests were performed using this system on a commercial size Boeing aircraft under the supervision of Raytheon in the days prior to 9/11.

O' JAYSUS HELP ME! LAWD HELP ME!! FOR THE LOVE OF GAWD HELP ME . . .US.

Jeff ok, now I am calling you simple. You are simple. VERY.

If you can't figure out what the importance is of reception of cell and air phone calls are, you are not only simple minded but hopeless.

I find it amusing that "you" make the calls on what is a threat to "national security."

Please don't trouble your beautiful mind with such trivial things.

You are incapable of rational and logical thought. You are also trolling.

Ok, everyone else, I am done with Jeff.

Changing the subject . . . does anyone have any thoughts as to why this "RE RELEASE as NEW" of a 2002 video has been done now?

I think we ALL get it (except for 2 people). Could it be that more of America is waking up to 9/11 Hoax Truth?

Could it be it is a smoke screen to get us to "look here" while they do something "over there".

I think the RE Broadcast as a New Release is to divide people and also distract from something else. Perhaps the real reason the Chimp is sending troops to the mexican border and it is NOT immigrants.

You define "trolling" as someone who disagrees with you and doesn't think there is/was a massive coverup about 9/11? We really are doomed...

Somebody sent me this just now:

IT WAS A MISSILE!

I noticed many of the online periodicals are repeating the line that this new pentagon footage will prove flight 77 "wasn't a hoax" and then in the article, admit that the video proves nothing, and in fact, fuels more debate on the subject. See the Daily Telegraph. PS don't respond to trolls, it only encourages them. Their purpose is to waste our time.

Looks like a global hawk - at least the size fits this better than a passenger plane.

Why are all the talking heads stating the same thin - "this should put all the conspiracy theories to rest"

Hello, see a small blur. We all agree something hit the Pentagon - what exactly remains TBA.

The video is not NEW.

It was shown on CNN Wolf Blitzer's segment in 2002.

Length: 76 ft. 4 in
Wingspan: 72 ft. 6 in
Height: 22 ft. 9.5 in

A-3 Skywarrior Specifications

This photo shows the Sugano Experiment where an aircraft was crashed into a block of concrete.

How did the wings fold up?

Who carried away pieces of the wings under a tarp?

Why?

http://www.rense.com/general70/tarp.htm

Onyx: It all depends on what shape screen you have and how big the window is in which you are measuring. I was doing it, crudely, with a strip of paper, and allowing that the missile would be further away than the impact point. I merely divided the height of the Pentagon by the number of sixteenths of an inch it measured BACK a little from impact, allow for the perspective thang, and I gave the missile 2/16, even though that was bigger than the measure I got. I was erring on the side of bigger object on both ends, and I did it with both videos.

Again, THIS VIDEO is NOT, Repeat NOT NEW.

Images show September 11 Pentagon crash
March 8, 2002 Posted: 7:09 AM EST (1209 GMT) SAME VIDEO IN 2002 It is NOT A NEW Release

Jeff - the connection of cell phones from hijacked airplanes is 1) the public is supposed to believe the passengers made calls substantiating the hijacked idea. 2) cell phones did not have that capability at that time ergo the connection.

Jeff - you keep repeating one statement over and over instead of answering any questions we ask.
Sort of like hmmmmm "NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND" whenever Bush is asked any question he isn't prepared to answer.

Why not take your time and read up on the 9/11 facts on any of the websites being posted and then return to this blog to talk intelligently.

Oh, one more thing, the comment "love it or leave it" meaning all who disagree should vacate America. Thats been said before and I believe those of us against Vietnam and demanding answers proved to be right.

So grow a backbone and do some research.

In order for the following to be accurate, it had to be some type of a "Plane" rather than a missile that struck the Pentagon.

It WAS an A-3 and it carried missiles under its wings whick fired just prior to impact, resulting in the massive fireball and the smeel of cordite:

Cheney was in the Washington bunker, while Bush was at the school.He was in command. Scholars for 911 Truth point out http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/...
that Secretary of Transportation, Mineta Confirm this. Others point out he was also conducting numerous military drills that day that did confuse land workers.

Mineta's testimony is devastating," observed James H. Fetzer, Ph.D., McKnight Professor at the University of Minnesota. Fetzer is the founder and co-chair of the scholars' society, which recently joined with Judicial Watch in calling for release of documents, films and videos, and physical evidence withheld from the public by the administration. "It pulls the plug on the Commission's contention there was no advance warning that the Pentagon was going to be hit."

According to Secretary Mineta's testimony, which is in the public domain, when he (Mineta) arrived at an underground bunker at the White House (known as the Presidential Emergency Operations Center), the Vice President was in charge. "During the time that the airplane was coming in to the Pentagon", he stated, "there was a young man who would come in and say to the Vice President, 'The plane is 50 miles out.' 'The plane is 30 miles out.'

"And when it got down to, 'The plane is 10 miles out,'" Mineta continued, "the young man also said to the Vice President, 'Do the orders still stand?' And the Vice President turned and whipped his neck around and said, 'Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?'" One way to construe these remarks could be that the orders were to shoot down the plane.

The scholars suggest that that is an implausible interpretation. The Pentagon, they observe, may be the most heavily defended building in the world. If the orders had been to "shoot it down," then no doubt it would have been shot down. Moreover, there would have been no apparent reason for the young man to have expressed concern over whether or not "the orders still stand." Shooting it down, under the circumstances, would have been the thing to do.

"The only reasonable interpretation of the orders," Fetzer observed, "is that the incoming aircraft should not be shot down, which would have been an obvious source of anxiety for an aide. Since it contradicts the official story about the Pentagon," he added, "it had to be suppressed and was not even included in The 9/11 Commission Report." And other scholars, including Professor David Ray Griffin of Claremont Graduate University, have drawn the same conclusion.

I'm to grow a backbone because I disagree with most of these folks on here?

I was wearing the uniform of my country on 9/11 and have been defending your right to free speech while you were debating whether a missile hit the Pentagon or whether it was a plane.

I'd advise you to enlist, pick up a weapon, and stand a post. In the meantime, I'd prefer that you thank me, and go about your business.

JPentz: Mellow out. We know. It was four or five frames released before. This is new because it gives more context. I'm still waiting for them to give up ALL the surveillance camera footage, taken from all sources, government and citizen. And, I'd like to know if ANY security camera would be fast enough to catch the missile's flight such that it could be slowed enough for us to get a decent view of it.

I'm sure this has been mentioned - I only got halfway through the comments - but I just wanted to say:

Wouldn't it be nice if we could see the wing shadows on the ground? and

I thought these guys were trained to do everything BUT land...

Thanks Jeff. You can take a nap now, please.

Plunger: "A3" refers both to a plane that carries cruise missiles and the missiles themselves. I know, first hand, that there are jets the size of sports cars, and we all know flying things don't need pilots anymore. There has been testimony that a plane came in and veered off. It could have been the one Mineta heard Darth Fudd let approach. Cruise missiles are incredibly fast, maneuverable and accurate. I think they would have wanted all those features the most for that particular display. There are cruise missiles that look like toy fighter planes. There are all shapes and sizes of them, and I'm sure there are bigger ones we don't know about. This footage leaves the matter of size pretty darn hard to pin down. The only thing it shows for CERTAIN is that it was NOT Flight 77. I'm sticking with the missile story for the reason of the speed, accuracy and maneuverability. THAT could account for the fancy ass, almost super-human, trajectory it took into the side of the Pentagon, and the explosion from it was identical to known missile impact explosions.

Jeff,

What you are doing isn't disagreement. Disagreement means you looked at what was said and offered a counterpoint regarding the information that was presented.

No one is going to thank you for being a troll. I hope you wear a uniform, at least then it will give you an excuse to be a brainwashed fool who can't talk with people, only at them.

The 'defending your right' to speak your mind by telling others to, basically, shut up is unproductive, Jeff. I won't respond to anything you post again. Why don't you go back to wearing a uniform. It suits you better than analyzing facts to form an opinion.

sorry Agent.

I'm just pissed the media is billing this "AS New" is all. It's not personal.

JPentz, You can call me "99". Actually, it IS new in the sense that the coup was made to produce the whole, unexpergated (if such it turns out to be) footage. They've been forced to show us that it wasn't Flight 77, even if they're still spinning it that it was. We are, like, so, way so, way used to the media helping them ruin our country. I don't know why we even turn on our tubes anymore, except to get markers for finding out the truth from the internet. I wonder how many people are battling for the gas station and hotel footage?

Wayne Madsen is saying today that Venuzlea and Cuba both warned US about attack from their sources in Florida and we never responded to warnings. Richard Clarke says the same thing in his book. Bushco treated him the same way they did Colin Powell. Not an insider.

JPentz,

Calm down. As a white girl I'm glad that you don't believe the govt's CT about 9/11. And I know that other self-identifying white folks also disagree. My point, and if you take issue with it, please speak directly to my point, is that of the people who believe the ridiculous govt version of events, as in other cases of govt malfeasance, are disproportionately white. I've been talking to folks in Atlanta mostly but across the South about 9/11 since the attack occurred and overwhelmingly black folks, when presented with the evidence (but most without specific evidence and using simple logical deduction) don't believe the govt version. It's white folks on the Right and Left that always laugh or get very angry at me and usually do not want to discuss the facts of that day or the investigation.

It seemed to bother you for me to point out the racial explanation behind this phenomenon. I hope you can constrain your emotions and hear the case I present. If you can hear me without getting upset, you'll find that it makes sense and has historical consistency.

Black folks were reported to overwhelmingly believe that JFK was killed by the govt, at the time of the assassination. There as well, disproportionately represented in the group believing the lone assassin theory were white folks.

Same thing with Hurricane Katrina's non-response. When polled as to whether or not the non-response had anything to do with the race of the victims of the tragedy, more than 9 of 10 blacks said yes while only 3 of 10 whites.

White folks on the whole, don't believe the govt is capable of truly nefarious behavior. Not all white folks, but most. And while people of all ethnicities buy into various govt propaganda tricks, white folks are disproporationately(on the high side) represented in these groups.

It's no more a personal slight against you than it would be to state that almost all the whites in America played either an active or passive part in the genocide of the natives and subsequent enslavement of Africans.

That's just a fact concerning the role of whites in the history of America. But it doesn't necessarily mean anything about you.

I hope that clears that up some. I've done anti-racism training and its usually difficult for white people to hear anything negative about whites as a group, regardless of the historical accuracy or overwhelming statistical evidence regarding current events.

I hope you can keep a more open mind. The truth can be liberating.

Jeff - you weren't reading my post correctly. I said DO THE RESEARCH ON THE WEB SITES REGARDING THE FACTS THAT AREN'T ANSWERED.

Then you have a basis for disagreement rather than repeating your one note. We have asked for your facts so we can consider your viewpoint. However, I haven't seen your backup, just your comment, "it isn't true".

Lets not get into who is defending what, I am afraid you might lose in this crowd since many of us have all lost someone or have someone in this disasterous military right now.

Jack Frost:#285// I agree with jack, who really is Jeff, he sounds like he is disinfo from NSA, or CIA, or whichever cowardly, sheepish intel organization is next in line to lick the boots of there Illuminati puppet masters. Notice how he always asks open-ended questions, and fits the bill of the classic disinfo, really all they are good for is a DISTRACTION away from what really needs to be talked about, I think the best way to deal with these types is to see if they will reason with you using logic, and after all logical evidence is presented, they still hold there stance, they are either disinfo or totally ignorant. I find this alot on sites, these type of people, and on every site there are many people in constant argument with them, this is there whole mission, and yes, they are on a mission, to get other people distracted using illogical logic. Dont waste your time with these ones, the only way to shut them up, is to shut your own trap, remember the old addage that only a fool argues with a fool.

The news cycle is now about 24 hrs since the videos release. I am surprised at the general lack of notice in the mainstream media. It is plainly a hot topic at many net sites. Absolutely nobody in official government is commenting or being asked to comment. The "let's put it behind us" mentality is very strong on this one.

What do the survivors of the deceased passengers have to say? Who is attempting to forensically analyze the video?

Why the reluctance to discuss this from anywhere but the sheltering computer?

I'd like to second what JPentz is saying about this not being a new release. This is a psyop on the population. An opportunity for the corporations to discredit internet news, the 911 truth movement and govt skeptics in general.

This is not new information. I haven't heard Judicial Watch saying what is obvious, that this isn't new. That makes me skeptical of them being that they put so many resources into getting this released.

Let's see the real video. The satellite videos, too.

Sadly, the 'real' data is most likely digital, which means that it has the 'possiblity' of being highly manipulated(since digital images have a higher data rate sequence compresstion alogrythem. And also since the scale of the SAT images will be so fast, and the scale of compresstion will be so large due to the scale of distance, that it will be a data set like the ones used in Hollywood, hence affording the opportunity for a MASSIVE digital image manipulation event. On the Alex Jones website shows what I presume is a altered video sequence of a plane that was added into the frames, to show what it would look like if the 757 did hit the pentagon. Now in a very short time someone was able to make this 'representation', what about the government with there 'high tech' video and audio labs at the NSA and CIA? href="http://www.prisonplanet.com/images/may2006/170506doctored.gif" target="_blank">http://www.prisonplanet.com/images/may2006/170506doctored.gif

Is anyone familiar with Digital Holographic Imageing? It is the art of taking differing images, from differnt agles, and degrees, and exstrapulating a 3 dementional image from the target image, from all the images, pieceing together all of them into one like a puzzle if you will. This can be done with the SATs, and 84 videos, etc, and then of course a digital image of a 757 could be placed in, then highly complex programs can add the right light reflectance, and angels of shadows, calculate the presise timing of the trajectory of the plane, speed, wind, etc, and presto, you have a 757, from many differnt angels, all showing it slam into the pentagon. Even though there was no debri, no marks on the lawn, and the physics of the trajectory of the 757 defy the laws of physics themselfs, and no human could pull it of(which goes back to the remote theory). But yet, the american people will 'see' this for themselfs and will believe, for they have believed less things.

What needs to be done is exactly what many have said when the 'original' images came out; which was on 9/11, for I saw them on T.V., and that is to concentrate on the rest of the case, yes case, we are building a case angainst the government, and the rest of the case is huge, this is just a small anomolie, that they are going to use to distract us. Looking for bullets, when the gun has been stolen. There case is weak, and they know it, but the power of T.V. is known by them, they have perfected this mind control application, and what is seen on it will be believed. If our case rest solely upon such weak 'anomolies', then many minds will become darkend again. No, we must move forward, making our case stronger by diging deeper, and exspanding ourselfs further into the rabbit hole than just 9/11, there are still crimes in which men have been guilty for 50 years, and justice has still not found there bloody hands, yes, we all have a part to play in the body of the Human collective, and end the end all be be revield, even the things that society has forgotten about, even the darkest of there secrets; you know, the ones in which the imagination cannot even conjure, this is the age of transitions, and many are coming there way now, let us dig deeper, so that we may all share is spreading truth, and accelerating these transitions even further to critical mass.

Soo, that being said, what are we going to do personaly, in our own counties, to take our world back. I would really like to hear your ideas. State and local levels!!!!!!

Soo, that being said, what are we going to do personaly, in our own counties, to take our world back. I would really like to hear your ideas. State and local levels!!!!!!

And remember, that the real threat doesnt reside with the puppets in office, it is the men in the shadows, the NWO, the Family, the Illuminati!!. Yes, as long as these ones are around, so will there plans be.

FOR A GOVERNMENT AND ESPECIALLY AN AGENCY OF THIS GOVERNMENT THAT HAS CONTROL OF AN ARRAY OF SATELLITES THAT PEER INTO THE SMALLEST AND TIGHTEST OF PLACES, UNMANNED DRONE AIRCRAFT WITH SENSITIVE VIDEO AND SOUND, SUPER COMPUTERS THAT CAN COMPILE BILLIONS OF DETAILED INFORMATION, ONE HAS TO ASK THE QUESTION THAT BEGS TO BE ASKED.

IS THIS THE BEST YOU HAVE?

Well seriously though, a stop motion camera positioned at a guard/check point that fails to capture high speed motion?
What good would this type of antiquated technology be if a bomb ladened truck were to crash through the post?
The truck MIGHT be seen, if it were captured in the right frame.

Sorry for the BOLD, but America's being fooled.

I'm not saying or suggesting that the government fixed the evidence to go around the story, or anything.
Who would ever get the crazy notion to fix evidence, facts around a story?

What I'm asking and attempting to point out is, that with this official re release of the exact same stop motion video, that has already been pointed out, exists on the Internets, that the re release doesn't answer questions, it begs for further questions to be asked.

America can not accept the line that the Government has sold us on this.

Again, I ask.

FOR A GOVERNMENT THAT IS SO TECHNOLOGICALLY ADVANCED, BOTH IN IT'S CIVILIAN SECTOR AND IN IT'S PRIVATE AND MILITARY SECTORS, IS THIS GRAINY, STOP MOTION CAMERA THE BEST THAT OUR GOVERNMENT'S MONEY CAN BUY?

Remember, this is camera work from the property of the US Government.
NOT the security video from the convenience store.

The cameras are only set to detect things moving at ground speeds, and shoot in conservation mode. The Pentagon is protected by its own anti-aircraft weapons, NORAD, radar, etc. NOTHING can get near, nothing can even get on their heading from many miles away, without them knowing. So there is NO need to have more sophisticated surveillance cameras by the security gates. This is NOT new insofar as 4 or 5 frames were previously released; it IS new insofar as it gives you the whole pertinent footage from two cameras, and we are better able to tell for sure what the footage says and does not say. It unequivocally backs up the impact zone's assertion that it wasn't a 757 that hit the Pentagon. And I am actually a little surprised the jerks would let it out to add more fuel to our fire. I'm assuming people are still after the gas station and other surveillance cameras' footage.... Maybe we'll get it. Probably not.

Turk - Black jelly beans have always been my favorite!

Pentagon: "The structure is supported by 41,492 concrete piles. There are five floors, plus mezzanines and basements. The building itself is 77 feet, 3.5 inches high. Each outside wall is 921 feet long. "

More futzing around with videos, and crude measuring, and better familiarization with where everything is in relation to everything else, all that obsessive stuff, is growing my missile. It's now 11 feet in diameter, but that's at its widest at the nose, and then it seems to get markedly skinnier right behind the nose. Wuh? The clearer you can make the video, the weirder it gets.

It wasn't a 757.

Crash Test dummies (bush parrot loyalists) step forward.
Why doesn't someone fly an unmanned 757 into a building under similar conditions and see what kind of damage it produces?

99

You didn't tell me your rmeasurement of the buidling height.

If your screen measurement for the "missile" was 2/16 th, as you say, and your scaling calculation indicated the real height of the "missile" was less than 5 ft then your measured height of the building must have been 1.5" (60x(2/16)/5=1.5)

Your measurement of the missile is about 1/32 or 1.5 times larger than my measurement (different image or screen size), but your building is 3.8 times taller. Some one made a bad measurement or calculation and I've triple checked mine.

Give me all your info so we can see who is right.

99 - a 757 fuselage is 12' 4" in diameter. Looks to me like it is right in the ballpark with your new estimate of 11 ft.

The Saturn V rocket that put men on the moon is only about 30 feet in diameter. So this missile of yours must be between 1/2 and 1/3 the size of the Saturn V moon launch rocket????

I think we are looking at a 757 and I want to know how it got there, who is complicit and how we're going to hold those fuckers accountable.

The skinniness just behind the nose might be the darker paint of AMERICAN AIRLINES in contrast against the silver aluminum skin. There's also a dark area further back that might be the shadow under the wings, but that is stretch due the poor quality of the images.

Oh, dear, Onyx! It all depends on which size I open the video window too, and I made so many marks on my strip of paper, that I finally just put the ruler straight up against my monitor screen, and started running the math on my widget calculator, now based on the actual height of building (77') instead of guestimates from last night, and I dint write a bit of it down, and I just two minutes ago cleared the calculator. Last night I had the impact place too far north, and it was (on that screen) 1.5", but now it's closer to 14/16" or 1" and the missile is just a little under 2/16", but it's so damn fuzzy it could really be closer to 1/16"... my fiddling with the picture is increasing my notion that that "nose" looks like it's mounted on a long pipe!!!

So. My plan is to make a strong cup of coffee, and smoke a couple carcinogens on my front porch, and then have back at it. It's silly really, because we can only get so scientific with this fuzzy mess, but Bluebear2's link really helps with orientation.

href="http://www.pentagonresearch.com/index.html">Here it is again.

I'll be back in a while with updates. Sorry. My brain does NOT like to hold on to the sticks, it wants to laser ahead, leaving the logic in its wake like rubble. Drives my scientist friends to drink! (Especially when I beat them to their answers, but can't cogently explain how.)

No problem 99 - I've spent a ton of time reading BradBlog and I agree with you 99% of the time. Let's get to the bottom this.

Onyx #329

Agent 99 has given the building height as " 77 feet, 3.5 inches high" in her post #327.This agrees with the website I linked way back at #171. (I did make a mistake there regarding the plane and corrected it shortly later)

Plunger's link sure is interesting.That wing tip sure does look like folding portion the navy version of the A3. It is sheared clean at the fat end. If it was the tip of a larger one piece wing it surely would be ragged, not straight across.

Considereing the amount of fuel in a 757 it also seems the flames go out extremely fast. I would expect fuel to be splashed all over the face of the building and continue to burn for some time.

About 20 years ago a B52 went down at Mather AFB near here. The resulting fire burned for hours and it left a trail of black smoke across the sky that could be seen for 50 or more miles. It blocked out the sun in my location of about 15 miles from the site.

Bluebear - My 60 foot estimate was from 5 stories at 10 ft each plus a large cornice = approx 60 ft. I believe the 77 ft number is probably more accurate. However, this makes the plane height even bigger. My calc goes from 12.5 ft to 16.5 ft using the new 77 ft building height. Definitely too big to be a missile and right in the ballpark for a 757

I don't know how my link messed up.....?

While my coffee's brewing, Onyx, I should add that I find the first video, with the dirty lens must not be a straight picture lens, things seem too far out of whack in it. The second one is much better, but that is just a long streak of smoke, same width as "nose" in first video.

I can't get to 757 because it was not there IMMEDIATELY upon impact, didn't do enough damage, and NO WAY can that be. Plus, since it's CLEAR to anyone who knows even a little about how things are done there that NO plane, or missile, could have approached without them knowing ALL about it and doing something dispositive about it. So it was CERTAINLY planned and allowed to happen. I was watching the tv just moments after impact and there was NO evidence of a plane then, and it irked me at the very moment they were showing it. I'll shut up till I go back at those videos one last time, and I will write down my measurements to give you.

Sorry I haven't been here to join in the discussion. Been gone all day. This is interesting, check this thread at DU out:

http://www.democraticund...p;address=125×89897

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This is not new information. I haven't heard Judicial Watch saying what is obvious, that this isn't new. That makes me skeptical of them being that they put so many resources into getting this released.

I heard on the Mike Malloy show (and I haven't checked it out myself) that Judicial Watch is a right-wing organization.

I find it very curious that this group did not demand the other videos that the Pentagon has confiscated. Of course, the Pentagon says that this video is the only one that shows the impact. However:

1) There is probably a video out there that will show the object in full view (not necessarily the impact, itself).

2) Who's to say they are outright lying?

If Judicial Watch wanted to get to the bottom of this, they would demand to see ALL videos in the Pentagon's custody --- and not accept the notion that this 2 fps bit of useless footage is the only one of value.
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Okay, Onyx. I enlarged both to biggest they will go on my 20" flat screen monitor without distortion. Clearest I can get them is to turn them black and white with contrast up full.

Video One, with filthy lens: fast moving object nose is 2/16" at widest point, and 8/16" long. MUCH scrutiny tells me it definitely gets thinner, almost by half, at about 6/16" from leading edge. The building at approximate impact site is 13/16". I'm bothered by these frames because the "nose" does NOT seem to be on the right angle of approach. Either lens distortion or something more nefarious?

Video Two, cleaner lens: smoke streak measures between 2/16" and 3/16" and is 14/16 long. The building at approximate point of impact is 1" exactly. That smoke streak seems to be traveling at a wrong angle as well, only in the other direction.

Video One, with stopped action at point of longest "nose", looks as if it is travelling perpendicular to the west wall and will hit north of actual impact site. Video Two, with stopped action at longest smoke streak, makes it look as if it wants to hit south of actual impact site.

So, without regard to actuality of objects and our eyesight, just on crude measuring: Video One puts speeding bullet at almost 12', tapering back to ?', in diameter; and Video Two puts smoke streak waffling between about 8' and 12' in diameter.

Maybe even a little bigger in both instances because of perspective IF traveling from the angle reported.

What the heck IS that? I've seen something shaped like that in some picture of missile arsenals, but that would do more damage too. Please TRY to think of something besides 757 because that story REALLY doesn't fit what I saw at the time and all the data we've collected up to now, and I want to make sure we have exhausted all the other possibilities before we pop, or give up. I know dropping prejudices and concentrating can yield amazing things. I'm on it.

Shoulda finished coffee:

... Video Two puts smoke streak waffling between about 10' and 15' feet in diameter. Sheesh. Sorry.

To add to all of this we now get from our favorite NY times ex-reporter:

Former NY Times reporter Judith Miller to assert she was warned of large scale attack before 9/11

STOP George: Well, now that I've made my eyeballs bleed, and battled the brain that wants to whip past minutia to the big cigar, I might have to do a FOIA request for every surveillance camera in DC's confiscated footage from that day. I know an FBI agent who owes me. Maybe I can get a tip on the best way to shake stuff like that loose from a pack of felons in office. Aaaaaaggggghhhhh!

And! There's nothing leading that smoke streak, unless obscured by that rectangular boxy thing, but it's too short to be obscuring a 757.

And! How much time would I have to do for clocking Judith Miller, Bluebear2?

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Go for it, 99!! I truly hope somebody does.

BTW, here's an excerpt and photo from the "non-partisan" Judicial Watch:

Judicial Watch, Inc., a conservative, non-partisan educational foundation, promotes transparency, accountability and integrity in government, politics and the law.

"conservative, non-partisan"? LOL!!

Check out how pink and squishy these people look:

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Here's a couple of things featured prominently at the "non-partisan" Judicial Watch site.

NOTE: The "Hillary Watch" is not focusing on her in a very flattering way.

YIPES! I'm over HERE and what I was scrutinizing in Video One looks a heck of a lot like an Unmanned Aerospace Vehicle (UAV). A Predator or a Global Hawk, and I'm still looking.

Agent 99 #338

The image in the first movie and the still at Stop George #215 first appears to be coming in at a downward angle and slightly towards the camera.
After a closer look it could also be envisioned as coming in at an angle away from the camera. In that case we coud be seeing the nose and an end view of a wing with an engine pod in the forground. The bright white area could be the top of the wing.

Assuming the object in question is moving away from the camera and we are seeing the top of the wing, the nose and an engine pod - compare the 757 and the A-3 below. Notice the engine pod in relation to the nose.

Then watch this video of an A-3 (WMV format).

I'm leaning towards the A-3 theory after this and Plungers link I left at #333.

If only we had the other videos!

Agent99 #342

I don't know how much time, but when you get out I'll be waiting with another merit badge!

Going to your link at #345 now and then this bear is going to hibernate - 5:00 am alarm comes soon - hi ho hi ho it's off to work I must go!

Bluebear2, and Onyx, I'm freakin'... what I've been staring at all day sure seems to resemble a Global Hawk RQ-4A or 4B, or a Predator RQ/MQ-1 or MQ-9 (Predator B). I will certainly now turn to scrutinizing the A-3.

The camera is at the north end of the west wall of Pentagon, and whatever struck it was supposed to be coming from a southwesterly angle, heading northeast to smack the Pentagon. So what we're seeing should be coming slightly toward the camera. I also don't see any TAIL in either video... and a UAV would explain that better, but off to A-3 land I go....

Just wanted to jump on to say thank you especially to Agent 99 who deserves our gratitude for being his/her rigor as a scientist. All the rest, too-deserve praise for aproaching this horrible event in a pragmatic way. I tried to bring it up to my peers, but they were more intent on watching TV. Thankfully, there are a few good people left in the world. Keep up the good work!

Could probably raise whole ciity blocks full of children to healthy adulthood on the cost of just one Bluebear.

I'm looking at "noses" and/or short, stubby jobs with skinniness behind, and I'm still leaning toward the Predator or Sky Hawk, because of the one turbo and the diameter tapering down so drastically after the nose. They also are near our size calculations, go fast enough, and could have left debris like we saw in Plunger's link. Since they're so much lighter than a 757, that would also account for the lack of 757-like damage. They look particularly apt in side-view drawings, but also the pictures, if you paint a dark nose on them.

I mean, the LENGTH of that "nose" in Video One, using the scale of the known Pentagon height, would seem to be over twenty feet. I'm not seeing any window-like blurs there either, making the drone theory even stronger. Whaddya spoze guys?

Skeptic: Thanks for your kind words.

Onyx: While stumbling around in the military flying object zone, I really think I've come up with an alternative, here, that satisfies both our criteria.

OK, so I've read just about every post on the thread now. It took a long time, but well worth it. It seems tho, that Jeff, poor soul, is part of that group that thinks putting on a uniform equates to protecting our freedoms. Sorry, Jeff, we protect our own freedoms, that is why we stand to protest our own government's bullshit. I know that's a tricky concept for you, so just "think about it." To boot, you are about as boring as snot. Your too-often repeated argument about the release of other Pentagon tapes giving the terrorists what they wany is utter arse. How about this: what the terrorists want is for Americans to remain divided amongst themselves, and for us to distrust our government. I think, then, that not releasing the other footage of the Pentagon crash/strike, is giving the terrorists what they want. Again, "think about it." And then go away.

Ingemar, I have a Master's in Multicultural Ed, and I agree/understand the points you are making. But this is not the right forum. I tried to read back and figure out what got you started on your rant, which just seemed to pop out of the blue, and I couldn't locate it. If you want to lambast Jeff or Ricky for their idiocy go ahead, but for the most part if you are railing against white folks here for the past, present, and future transgressions of the dominant white male paradigm, you have got the wrong crowd. The white folks who are regulars here "get it", if you take my meaning. Including my own white male self. I say this as a friend, because I know where you are coming from, but the tack you take, which is perfectly appropriate in other situations, makes you seem a little "unhinged". It's no secret that Bush's approval ratings for African-Americans is under 2%.

Top article on Huffington post is Bush's new border security,unmanned drones which I think is what you guys are talking about. Check it out, I went there after reading all the posts and I got chills up and down my spine.

Found a piece in my A-3 investigating that shows really clearly that the blue tarp thing being carried was one of several TENTS being used on the scene for various things. That mystery is solved to my satisfaction. Some people are leaning toward an A-3 because eyewitnesses described what hit as having two engines under the wings. Evidence of only one was found that we know of. The old Skyhawks look more like the video "nose", have one jet engine, and two missiles under the wings...?

It really would have to be a highly maneuverable and fast craft, and there was NO evidence of duel engine damage in the pictures from before the roof cave in (and none in "nose" video). I think we should be scouring the web for pictures of drones. (UAVs)