Support our troops!
Extend their term of enlistment.

Bringing them home in a body bag
saves money --- no veteran benefits.

"Support our troops...
...until theres none left."

sad indeed

I predicted 150,000 American deaths before the war started. We have yet to scratch the surface. The middle east will be in civil war for many years, and I don't expect the draft to begin anytime soon. Instead, I see massive enlistment bonuses - in the neighborhood of $50K or more. Tens of thousands of minority women (who are less than worthless in combat) will eagerly join, take the money, get pregnant, and then go home. It's a better bet than welfare in the 'hood.

Eventually, after billions are spent on this fiasco, only men will be eligible for combat duty/bonuses. Many changes will occur in the way people think about combat. New weapons are being created as we speak, using sound & light. These will be terroristic in nature, and we will use them at will.

During Vietnam, each night's news reported 20 or 30 new fatalities, and it still took many years to become unpopular enough to be ended. As long as Daddy's girls and Mama's boys aren't being drafted, and money is being made & spent by the military industrial complex, and the tax credit handouts keep flowing to the lower classes, the war will go on indefinitely.

Get used to it, you left of center folks. Rally your troops. See if you can boost that 18-25 age group turnout UP to 19% next election.

Seeing as how us 18-25ers were the ONLY age group voting decisively against Bush, why don't you see if you can do something about the voting habits of those baby boomers that have handed us this administration?

Does anybody really know how many 18-25ers voted and for whom? Hell No. Nobody really knows anything. That's the whole point.

When the electoral system is THIS screwed up, you can't blame anything on any particular subset of the electorate. Instead, why not try working together to fix the electoral system?

Radical? Hell No! That's what this blog has been about for a long time.

I hate linking to mainstream garbage, but according to one, army bonuses may raise up to $40,000.

I guess the sales pitch of fighting against terrorism is no longer working.

Buckshot wants us to rally our "troops" so the voting machines can flip their votes too. Thanks for the advice Buckshot, maybe if the exit poll discrepancies shoot up to ten or twenty percent, people might start paying attention.

I also like the welfare in the 'hood comment. Let's all watch out for minority women join the army for the bonus and get pregnant scam. I'm sure countless numbers of minority women are waiting to go through basic training, get deployed in Iraq, and get knocked up by the first idiot to walk through the door.
That one comment is golden. I'm gonna plaster it on my wall, and put it next to all the intelligent Bush quotes.

I don't know where to dump all these links, but I've gotta. So this is marginally OT and helter-skelter and a jumble. The first link refers to the "blindsided" FBI's amazing ability to arrive at THE flight school in Florida where terrorist pilots were trained a mere 4 hours after the WTC towers were hit.

The others follow other themes, but they're all good.

Sound of One Hand Slapping
Media and Congressional e-addresses: comprehensive
VX Nerve agent spill in Illinois, reported BY U.K.!
Former Bush official says 911 probably bogus and an inside job
Conservative leaders joining ACLU against Patriot Act

I'm not a facile typist in HTML. Forgive errors. I commit this post to the "submission" gods!

And how many dead Iraqis are there??

BodyCount has it as 22,000 or more.

Other studies had 100,000 but were based on statistics rather than an actual count of bodies. (I wonder how many bodies the napalm/phophorous weapons melted away?)

And of course... once you count the birth defects, etc. from the fallout due to all the depleted uranium shells you'll probably be looking at well over 100,000 lives ruined (if not destroyed completely).

Makes you want to slap every single moronic dickhead that was preaching "Vote Bush/Cheney 04". I hope those naive, media-brainwashed, fundamentalist fools are learning from their mistake and realizing what a nightmare this administration is.

Unfortunately though... there are still a lot of "Jimmo's" out there who still believe this shit is about good vs. evil... and that terrorists commit suicide because they're "jealous of our freedom" and that Iraq had WMDs or even that Saddam wasn't complying with inspectors.

They ignore the fact that it's US policy causing outrage in the middle-east, ignore the oil and money motives for the war, ignore the fact the reasons for going to war have changed over the last 4 years, ignore the fact that no WMDs were ever found, ignore the fact that the US was implicated in the oil-for-food scandal, ignore the fact that Saddam was totally co-operative with weapons inspectors, ignore the fact that US military stepped up activity against Iraq pre-war and were trying to get Iraqi forces to retaliate. They even give us shit for wanting voter verifiable ballots and wanting some integrity and decency in the electoral process.

With this sort of ignorance, they even ignore the ~15,000 Americans who've been badly injured or maimed. There are still claims that many who made it out of the country but died in the air or died back at home didn't make it into the official count. - Also add to those figures all the families that have lossed a mother or father, or worse for some.. their own child. People are having to bury their kids because of the lies being told by the Bush/PNAC regime... it really is a shame that some idiotic bush-fanboys out there still don't "get it".

Today's New York Times has a front-page article that demonstrates how clueless the mainstream media are toward the Iraq debacle.

Despite Bush's optimism, so we're told, Americans on the scene are more realistic about how long it will take before Iraqis can control the "insurgency."
Several years, at least...maybe longer.

I wrote them a letter, questioning the premise. The failure of Iraqi soldiers to control what Bush loves to
call "insurgents" could well mean that they don't view their own countrymen that way. If Iraq had invaded us, and American soldiers allied with Iraq were unable to control the response, would that make American patriots insurgents?

A failed invasion, based on a false premise, waged with inadequate armor, continues unabated...and the American press still thinks we're battling a handful of determined insurgents, not a country that hates us viscerally and wants nothing more than for us to leave...today.

The catastrophic "success" of the greatest lying regime in US History continues.

More americans have been lied to by a criminal minded administration than at any other time.

The results are in fact and indeed catastrophic.

WP is right in his post #5. This is the pathway to making a sincere attempt to fix this madness.

Democrats and Republicans have got to work together to bring a sane voting system back.

Fully and totally verifiable accounting trails for any voting machine used in US elections. The best, which means most honest, voting system in the world is what must be done first.

Then we get rid of the fascist neocon element with the first honest election of the new century.

Then we get rid of the bad reputation these idiots have brought upon the american people.

It will take at least ten years, after a sweeping election, to do it properly.

This week the US Fish and Wildlife Service bastard named Chris Servheen announced the proposal to DELIST the Yellowstone Grizzly because the population is increasing. There are less than 1000 bears in the lower 48 states and 51 were killed last year. The Yellowstone Grizzly population is isolated from other Grizzly Bear populations. Our US goverment are made up of uncaring greedy inbreds lying murderers like Bush and Cheney, Condolezza Rice, Tony Blair and most of the other robot losers in Congress. The fact are:
1. The Bush administration changed the laws of forestry last December after stealing Presidential Election #2. The Bush administration can now go in with his timber oil and gas companies and destroy or develope our wild lands without even an impact statement to the public.

2. The Bush administration reversed President Clinton's Roadless Rule Law last August. This protected 58 million acres of wildlands from roads which leads to the destruction of our last wild animal habitats.

3. Offroad vehicles are also destroying this habitat. All you uncaring human bastards driving your motorized vehicles on these last wildlands deserve a special place in my hell.

I don't know to much yet about this yahoo Chris Servheen but he collects a paycheck from the government. Round up all these fckers and I will fight them all in a boxing ring at the same time. I am sick of these bastards using the media to lie and deceive Americans about elections, war in Iraq, 911, human right violations, changing laws in Congress to favor big business and step on the American people, and the ENVIRONMENT. 400 standard and or laws have been lowered or completely reversed under the Bush administration. Since it seems all they understand is force and violence, put them all in ring on July the 4th and I will give them such a severe beating they will wish they were fighting a team of Olympic boxing champions instead. Televise that around the world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#9-#10
'How many dead Iraqi?'
'Bodycount says 22,000-Others state 100,000'

Since dead Iraqi body counts are forbodden or just not done let's look instead at the tonnage of bombs dropped.

Starting in July of 2002 ----10 tons! A prewar gift.
From then more and more. Anyone have a tonnage count. I don't, but the numbers I have seen are staggering! Probably in the tens of 10's of 100,000 tons!

Conservatively, my guess is that it is more than
a ton per "counted dead".

Conclusion: we are not getting enough boom for our buck. Our bombs are not worth a F**k!

But we do know that our bombs are "SMART" and won't explode if they hit near 'life' because ...?
This is a First! We have shown the world that it is possible to make a war in which no one dies and municions makers smile.

bush will soon announce a day to commemorate this war and call it Bomb Makers Pride Day!
Rejoice!

Peg, thanks for the links - I'm feeling appropriately queasy...
Griz, you go guy!
All, I think the ugliest feature is the DU munitions, and that has to be pursued!
Remember, a mixed-up Senator Frist reads Treason First

Good one, Czaragorn! Anagrams to the fore!!

BVAC,

You say "Seeing as how us 18-25ers were the ONLY age group voting decisively against Bush, why don't you see if you can do something about the voting habits of those baby boomers that have handed us this administration?"

First point....the voter turnout for that age group (18-25) was exactly the same as in the previous election (18% turnout). This, despite all the massive "Rock the Vote" noise we heard for months. Your youth may have had wonderful ideas of reform, but THEY DIDN'T SHOW UP on election day.

Now, you're asking me to change the vote of the elderly population? You want me to slow down the Amazon destruction while I'm at it?

Winter Patriot,

Your lack of faith in our voting system may be justified, or perhaps not. I think a simple paper ballot is the way to go.

Horkus,

Ironic that I had just suggested that increased bonuses would be the new stategy, eh? This is an obvious move for the Bush administration. They can print as much money as they need, but if they start drafting Daddy's girls and Mama's boys, they will run into a brick wall of opposition.

Plus, and this is crucial, they (we) can't really rely on drafted grunts in this war. They (we) don't need illiterate ghetto kids with low IQ's and a gun to storm machine nests on Hamburger Hill. They (we) need kids smart enough to train in the use of modern gadgetry & strategies.

(of course, a suitcase nuke in NYC will nullify all of the above - then it will be "a day that will live in infamy" all over again....with a return of the pickup truck-sporting American Flags. (Chinese made) Screams of "I support our troops" will be heard from sea to shining sea. (Except the Bay area)

Robert,

Yes, all that you say is true. The trouble with your thinking is that you seem to believe average Americans care as much about ethics, honest political motivations, & sane foreign policy as they do about their own job, family & security. They don't.

People aren't nearly as ethical as you are giving them credit for.

I'm reminded of a mini-scandal from WW2 era in Chicago. A lady was interviewed and publicly quoted as saying "Business is great - I hope the war goes on FOREVER." Granted, she wasn't very popular afterwards, but she was far from an isolated case, I'm sure.

With this troll I fear we're talking basket case. Henceforth I shall ignore, and suggest that others do (or not do) likewise. If I want to smell something really vile I can go inhale over the garbage can

Re: start of this thread, # of US military dead, that one isn't accurate, either. To reduce the death toll of US troops, those that are mortally wounded but not yet dead are flown out of Iraq immediately. When they die elsewhere their deaths are not counted in these figures. I've read that this is a practise that is particularly demoralizing for the troops (when their buddies are mortally wounded and then their deaths don't even get counted with the war dead).

And ya know, I'm a 'Murkan, and I believe that being honest is a trait that benefits all of society as well as myself. "Somebody else got away with it first" just doesn't cut the mustard!

Catherine # 19, I agree wholeheartedly, and might just add that to that figure the number who have been physically mained for life, and those who have been psychologically maimed (and well I remember my friends, those who survived, the Viet Nam War), and those whose families have been destroyed (not to mention the countless poor Iraqis, whose only crime was being born in their native land), all for Halliburton - my urge to weep is overcome by my urge to see justice done!

Czaragorn #21 -

When I get really, furiously angry, the tears flow anyway, automatically.

BUCKSHOT,

First point....the voter turnout for that age group (18-25) was exactly the same as in the previous election (18% turnout). This, despite all the massive "Rock the Vote" noise we heard for months. Your youth may have had wonderful ideas of reform, but THEY DIDN'T SHOW UP on election day.

Perhaps you didn't know, or maybe you are just trying to obfuscate the issue, but there were close to 5 million new youth voters, with the turnout rate for that age group raising 9% to stay on par with the overall turnout rate. In 2000, the youth vote went to Bush 48%-46%. In 2004, it went to Kerry 54%-44%. I think the numbers speak for themselves.

Now, you're asking me to change the vote of the elderly population? You want me to slow down the Amazon destruction while I'm at it?

Nice dodge. No, I don't have much hope for anyone over 45 to get us out of this mess. Just pointing out who is overwhelmingly responsible for it.

Managing the Rapture
by Karen Kwiatkowski
May 3, 2003 (Still an important read ...)

A key tenet of the end times, very popular within the Bush administration, is you never know when the moment to convert or die will occur. Heck, it could be right in the middle of a drunken stupor, or when you are choking on a pretzel! One must always be ready for the unexpected.

As with all end times, an assessment must be done, in a twinkling as it were. What have we got with this war in Iraq?

More

WAS CNN CENSORED LAST NIGHT BY THE WH??

Not sure if there's anything to this, but according to Time Warner's on-screen TV Guide, at 8pm last night CNN Presents was supposed to air a program called "Dead Wrong: Inside the fight over US Intelligence", a program relating to the Iraq War.... When I tuned in, however, they were showing a segment on young athletes called "Whatever it takes".

This could simply be a mistake by Time Warner in their guide, or maybe CNN got some pressure from the WH not to air the Iraq segment, particularly with the Conyers Hearings coming up this week...

I e-mailed CNN to ask what happened but have not received a reply and I was wondering if anyone else noticed this last night??? Certainly wouldn't shock me if BushCo was involved in suppressing the program...

Why It's Time to Deport Liberals

by J.B. Williams

Monday, June 13, 2005

During the run-up to the 2004 election, hundreds, if not thousands of liberals promised to leave America for good if Bush was re-elected. Best I can tell, not one of them kept their promise. Instead, they have only become more obnoxious in their efforts to dismantle America.

America’s liberal movement isn’t what it used to be. The old live and let live, make love not war liberal who just wanted to be left alone to pursue his often drug induced euphoric consequence free utopian existence has been replaced. I liked this old liberal. He did himself all kinds of harm, but generally speaking, he didn’t hurt anyone else. He was passive by nature, spending most of his time hanging out in his marijuana patch listening to the Beatles. I miss this old liberal.

The new liberal is a horse’s ass of an entirely different color. He is a bitter hate-filled America loathing Marxist, just as determined to bring the world’s most powerful nation to its knees as any foreign enemy in history.

The new liberal doesn’t just hate George W. Bush or Dick Cheney. As their newly elected Messiah so proudly pronounced — "they hate everything they stand for". Things like a strong military, a vibrant free capitalist economy, and a foreign policy that hinges on strength rather than weakness, real moral principles and true personal liberty. They hate it all.

America is the freest nation on earth (despite liberal demands for more government control of everything). We have the lowest unemployment rate of any nation on earth, the largest number of self-made millionaires, and the highest average standard of living anywhere, even the richest poor people on the planet. We are the most generous nation because we are the most powerful nation on earth. Liberals don’t like any of it and they can’t think of one good thing to say about the founding principles of the country they love to hate.

They don’t like gun toting heterosexual married people with children, the financially self-sufficient, people not hooked on drugs or alcohol, people of religion, unborn children or those who defend them, or anyone too smart to fall for their socialist spineless drivel. In short, they don’t like most Americans.

They spend all of their free time looking for new ways to undermine everything America has ever been or was ever intended to be. So why are they still here?

Today’s liberal sees nothing wrong with a million abortions a year. He sees nothing wrong with tyrannizing the most productive members of our society for benefit of those who contribute nothing to society. He sees nothing wrong with art in the form of pornography, but everything wrong with a public display of the Ten Commandments.

He sees nothing wrong with terrorists preaching death to Americans in Mosques and on street corners across this nation, but everything wrong with the pledge of allegiance or a morning peace prayer in our school houses.

He believes that if you work smart enough, hard enough and sacrifice long enough to become wealthy on your own, you owe a share of your spoils to those who won’t do the same - that his government owes it to him, to take those spoils from you against your will if need be.

He believes that all sexual perversions are just "alternative lifestyles" that must be tolerated in the name of creating an open society. He believes that those who don’t support such ideas are bigots.

He believes that all religions are deserving of equal status, including the not so peaceful religion of Islam, the always entertaining satanic cult, and the religion of no religion, atheism. To the modern day liberal, there is no real difference between religions.

He looks at terrorists firing upon American soldiers from behind the cover of female Muslim attire as victims of brutal American oppression. But he sees a terrorist prison camp where the American people pay for clean housing, three squares, a free Koran and a free prayer rug aimed at Mecca for every detainee as a Nazi Gulag.

He sees legal immigration and illegal immigration as the same thing. A chance to recruit another liberal voter in search of free stuff from America’s feeding trough.

He does not believe in self-governance or self-reliance, but rather in absolute government control over every aspect of American life. He doesn’t believe in a free market economy, but rather a government controlled economy designed to arbitrarily redistribute wealth.

He doesn’t believe in freedom, just free stuff. He does not believe in national sovereignty. In the United Nations run by thugs, thieves and third world tyrants, he trusts.

He looks at failing government controlled health care systems around the world and determines that America should do that too. He looks at the impending disaster of open societies in Europe and determines America should follow in their footsteps.

He looks at one self-proclaimed war hero who refuses to release his military records to support his hero status and sees a real honest to goodness war hero. But he looks at more than 200 confirmed war heros who claim the other is a fraud and a traitor, and sees more than 200 liars.

Now, it stands to reason that today’s liberal just might not be too bright, since there is quite literally no way to make sense of any of his logic. But it’s impossible to believe that anyone could actually be so foolish. So it is more likely that there is simply an agenda behind all this foolishness.

That agenda is the dismantling of everything American. They intend to continue to systematically replace our free market economy with a government controlled welfare state that will make every American equal, equally poor that is.

They intend to replace our One Nation under God with a Godless society dependent upon man made laws rather than morality based self-governance. The facts are simply indisputable.

They have already replaced our right to life endowed by our Creator with a government sanctioned right to murder our unborn and our physically or mentally challenged no longer of use to society. They have already replaced our right to free religious expression with a non-existent separation of church and state clause that effectively outlaws religious expression.

All of this is at odds with the vast majority of Americans, yet it continues. If America is to continue being America, the enemy within must be dealt with. The time for tolerance has passed.
We have tolerated far too much already. America’s survival depends entirely upon our ability to foster and nurture true American principles and ideals. Those who would undermine these ideals must be no more welcome in our country than those who seek to destroy America through more brutal means. Though the means are different, the threat is the same.

America can not be all things to all people. It can either be America, or it can be something much less. It is time to deport those who like nothing about the country that unwillingly feeds and provides protection for their ill conceived agenda.
Immigrants who seek to make America more like their homeland need to simply return to their homeland. If they won’t do it voluntarily, we should help them.

I don’t hate anyone. But I will no longer tolerate people intent upon destroying my country!

I hear France is looking for a few good socialists

BVAC,

You seem to think your statistics are meaningful, and that mine are not.

The bottom line is that the youth DID NOT show up at the polls on election day in sufficient numbers to turn the tide. Thus, we have Bush in the whitehouse, GOP majorities in both houses, and soon we will be getting a couple of new supreme court judges appointed for life, by GWB.

I'm reminded of the boxer who lost a decision to a guy he thought he outpunched. The manager says "ya shoulda knocked im out!"

You see, BVAC, the oft-heard claim that the polls are rigged simply doesn't compensate for a dismal youth turnout. Had the youth REALLY turned out, Kerry would be in the whitehouse.

The sad fact is, most young voters could not tell you what Kerry's occupation is, or who his running mate is. Most young progressives believe poor people pay more income taxes than rich people, when in fact they pay ZERO income taxes.

Your claim that the over 45 crowd is responsible for our current situation is half true. Those who voted had a hand in it. I guess those who didn't vote had a hand in it too. (the youth, for instance)

Young people typically make a lot of noise, but then they don't vote, so it doesn't matter.

Somebody here is obviously coo coo for cocoa puffs. Can somebody be so kind and send him a box in his nuclear bunker?

Somebody here is obviously coo coo for cocoa puffs. Can somebody be so kind and send him a box to his nuclear bunker?

#26 &#27
Fomites !
quick someone pass the carbolic acid.

And #27
somehow that one got washed away

What a bunch of mean-spirited, ignorant hooey, Jimmo #26. It's pretty obvious this writer and those who agree with this writer are part of that grand-old KKK mentality. No surprise!

We will continue to ignore the hatefilled jimmo troll and its comrades in the corporate media.

BuckShot #27, you're basing an awful lot on spurious statistics. With secret machines running opaque elections it is impossible to prove or validate the election results.

Those that would have you believe the exit polls were way off would also have you believe that the same exit polls showed that moral values was the top concern in the election. So which is it? Either the exit polls were wrong or they were right.

VeryWorried,

You ask were the exit polls wrong or were they right?

Well lets say there were 500 different exit polls around the country. (Perhaps there were 30 or perhaps there were 1500 - I have no idea)

And you are asking were they ALL wrong or were they ALL right?

As if there is no other answer? Could some of them have been fairly accurate, some others off a bit, and still others WAY OFF?

Your question assumes it was either ALL ONE WAY, or all the other. Sorry, life doesn't work out that way.

I will tell you a short story about a conversation about exit polls though, from a conversation I had maybe a year ago with a young "progressive". His claim was that (by golly) , 69% of those polled favored gay marriage.

I said "REally?" What an odd number. Are you sure? he was adamant. I did a bit of poking around and it appeared that across the country the numbers were more like 10% or 20%, BUT IT DEPENDED on HOW THE QUESTION WAS ASKED.

Anyway, I offered to pay him $100 and to donate the same amount to the blog if he could give me a reliable source for his mysterious 69%. He didn't, of course. So he changed the subject, called me a bunch of names, and called it a day.

Now if you want to talk about exit polls, you have to be specific, and you have to do some investigation. You need to ask some serious questions....such as....

1) where was the poll, exactly.
2) what were the EXACT questions asked?
3) who was paying the people doing the poll?
4) what was the demographic of the people polled?
5) what was the test sample?

I think you would find that many "pollsters" already have a goal in mind, and the above considerations are made in determining where, how, & who to poll.

If you want to talk about a SPECIFIC poll, that's fine. I like specifics.

It's hard for me to believe there was widespread (anti-Kerry) voter fraud, given the absolute dishonesty of the lefties in so many areas. I can give you some examples. One is income tax.

Poor people in America pay ZERO income taxes, yet time and again you hear lefty blogs stating the opposite; that rich people are not paying their share, and the poor are getting the shaft. About 40 to 50% of young progressives believe that poor people pay more income taxes than rich people. (in fact, poor people pay ZERO income taxes)

Why do they believe this? Because they are being spoonfed this dishonest information from people like Brad, Franken, Hillary, Dean, and a thousand other left-of-center sources. it's dishonest to the nth degree, and that is precisely why I don't believe there was widespread voter fraud. These people are lying about the tax structure, so we know THEY'LL LIE. Once you know they'll willingly lie, and continue to lie, then everything they say is VERY suspect!

I will pay $1000 to anyone on this blog, and I will ALSO DONATE $1000 TO THE BLOG, if any of you can show me that the poor in America pay income taxes. Brad, here's your chance to earn $2000.

I'm waiting.

I'm hearing a lot about "murkins" these days... it might be a nice opportunity to reflect on the long and distinguished history of the word.

Some speculate that it is Texas pidgin English derived from the term "American." But amongst linguists, there is an increasing consensus that the term is actually a variant spelling of the word "merkin," or a pubic wig worn by women.

In the pre-penicillin days, when prostitutes often continued to work long after disease had caused much of their pubic hair to fall out, the merkin was created to help mask the unsightly mess of rankling sores. Many believe that the contemporary Murkin plays a similar function, serving to provide valuable cover to those modern day whores we call politicians, helping to mask the ill effects of the 'love' that they lavish on an unsuspecting public.

So next time you hear someone say, "Greetings my fellow murkins," you know exactly who they are talking to and what they are talking about.

I was poor a year ago. I paid income tax on a 10,000 a year income. I got most of it back, but not all of it. Plus I paid city tax, school tax, state tax, sales tax.

Tax rates chart

I wished I could have just set myself up as a business in the Cayman Islands like good old turncoat Halliburton (who likes being American when it comes to taking giant no bid taxpayer subsidized contracts)... but alas... I'm just a poor chump, doing honest work for wages that keep inflation low.

I earn a bit more than that now, but then I am married and have a family. But I know there are millions of people just like me, who haven't gotten better jobs... or worse, who have lost the jobs they had. But, at least they know how to break a sweat. Most of these rich wusses that moan about taxes sit around earning returns on someone else's hard work... they make more money if they close a factory here, and send the jobs to some third world sweat shop. Some work ethic that is, lazy babies.

Any day of the week I'd pay taxes out of my small income, because I am grateful that I live in a country that is safe, clean, well-educated, stable, and free.

I really can't believe these losers who are cry about the death tax and all that claptrap. The government needs money to operate. It would need less if we weren't at war. But it still needs money. Soldiers need to get paid, veterans need benefits, firemen need firetrucks, roads are good for business, and are kids need books. Anyone who has a problem with that should move to Somalia, where there is no Big Bad Evil Government. Just one big free market where the smart and creative survive.... it's a real paradise, I'm sure.

Buckshot, you completely sidestepped the issue and tried to diminish the whole point of exit polls in elections.

The exit poll process is not an exact science, although you incorrectly imply my supposed lack of life experience makes me think it is. The process is, however, sufficiently accurate to use as a yard stick to measure the accuracy of the election results. So much so that the Americans insisted the election be overturned in the Ukraine because the exit polls and the election results were at odds.

I cannot answer the questions you posited because I don't work for the people responsible for conductiong the exit polls. You will need to speak to them about that.

More to the point, you insist your statisctics are better than BVAC's. Who is the pot and who is the kettle?

The "kids" were rallied and they did turn out, but you continue to ignore the fact that it deosn't matter how many people vote! What matters is how those votes are counted and as long as they are "counted" by proprietary machines using inscrutable software and no reliable audit trail then the vote and the democracy is a sham.

"I will pay $1000 to anyone on this blog, and I will ALSO DONATE $1000 TO THE BLOG, if any of you can show me that the poor in America pay income taxes. Brad, here's your chance to earn $2000."

I know my account is anecdotal... but look at the yahoo chart.

You can send my 1000 dollars to the Catholic Worker. Brad, let us know when the check clears.

Thanks!

As a matter of fact, Buckshot is right about one aspect of the exit polls. Some were deadly accurate, others were way off. I just don't think he understands the pattern, or how revealing it is.

One more time, for Buckshot and any others who still deny that Bush won the election by fraud.

THE EXIT POLLS WERE CONSISTENTLY ACCURATE IN STATES USING PRIMARILY PAPER BALLOTS. THEY DIVERGED FROM THE TABULATED VOTE DRAMATICALLY, HOWEVER, IN STATES USING ELECTRONIC VOTING MACHINES AND OPTICAL-SCAN TABULATORS. COINCIDENTALLY OR OTHERWISE, ALL THE BATTLEGROUND STATES WERE IN THE SECOND CATEGORY.

WITH THE EXCEPTION OF WISCONSIN, WHERE THE EXIT POLLS WERE CLOSE TO THE TABULATED VOTE (NO DOUBT REFLECTING FRAUD ON BOTH SIDES THAT CANCELED OUT), BUSH RAN FAR AHEAD OF THE EXIT POLLS IN EVERY SWING STATE...THE NATIONWIDE FIGURE WAS 5-1/2% DIFFERENTIAL, WITH THE TABULATED VOTE SHOWING BUSH WINNING BY 2-1/2% AND THE EXIT POLLS HAVING KERRY 3% AHEAD.

In Florida, the exit polls had the Senate race within a half-of-a-point. They had Kerry ahead in the presidential race. If there was no fraud in Florida, it means voters lied to exit pollsters about the presidential race but told the truth about the Senate race. Ridiculous.

The debate should have been over long ago. The election was fraudulent. Period. George W. Bush is an illegitimate president. That has nothing to do with Democrats vs. Republicans, and nothing to do with liberals vs. conservatives. It's a matter of mathematics...and while people of good will (and trolls of ill will) can argue back and forth about political issues, nobody on either side can refute the laws of probability.

THE CHANCE THAT EXIT POLLS AND TABULATED VOTES COULD HAVE DIVERGED BY 5-1/2% RANDOMLY IS ONE IN 959,000. WHAT PART OF THAT MATHEMATICAL FACT DOES ANYONE NOT UNDERSTAND?

Mother of dead soldier vilifies Bush over war, here.

BUCKSHOT

You seem to think your statistics are meaningful, and that mine are not.

You did not cite any statistics that I can recall. You simply said that not enough youth voted to shift the election. Is that your statistic? "Not enough"?

The bottom line is that the youth DID NOT show up at the polls on election day in sufficient numbers to turn the tide. Thus, we have Bush in the whitehouse, GOP majorities in both houses, and soon we will be getting a couple of new supreme court judges appointed for life, by GWB.

Sure, not enough of us showed up to "turn the tide", but that wasn't my point. The same thing could be said of African-Americans who, if the Democratic party actively mobilized the 9 million of them that didn't vote, would have handed the election to Kerry. My point though, was that it is clear that the young generation has thoroughly rejected the Bush plan for America.

I'm reminded of the boxer who lost a decision to a guy he thought he outpunched. The manager says "ya shoulda knocked im out!"

It sure felt like it was going to be a KO. There was a general feeling that Bush would lose, and in fact we still don't know that he won. Still, it seems like they just didn't try hard enough - it shouldn't have even been close. If I were a Democrat, I'd certainly rethink my stategy for 06.

You see, BVAC, the oft-heard claim that the polls are rigged simply doesn't compensate for a dismal youth turnout. Had the youth REALLY turned out, Kerry would be in the whitehouse.

Were you expecting some kind of miracle? Like I said, the same could be said for many groups and demographics. However, I would assert that the youth turnout was not dismal when you consider all the factors.

The sad fact is, most young voters could not tell you what Kerry's occupation is, or who his running mate is. Most young progressives believe poor people pay more income taxes than rich people, when in fact they pay ZERO income taxes.

I'm not sure where you're getting this from. Anecdotally, I can tell you that most every young voter I know is at least superficially knowledgeable about Kerry and Edwards and where they rhetorically stand, at least in the liberal-conservative-democrat-republican false paradigm that is pushed by the politicians and reinforced by the media. Also, what you are saying about the income taxes is simply false, and unless you have something to substantiate your claim about what young progressives believe about the tax system, I will ignore these statements.

Your claim that the over 45 crowd is responsible for our current situation is half true. Those who voted had a hand in it. I guess those who didn't vote had a hand in it too. (the youth, for instance)

Here is where we agree. Half of the country doesn't vote for various reasons, probably more because of apathy and the inadequate electoral system we have than anything else. These are both by design.

Young people typically make a lot of noise, but then they don't vote, so it doesn't matter.

All too true, but we're consistently improving. Now, take a look at what all the social momentum in the 60's and 70's, continuing through the 80's and 90's. All of that peace, love, and marijuana must've made the boomers forget about their civic responsibility.

BT,

Yes, at $10K, a single man would probably pay a hundred or two in income taxes, and perhaps $700 in payroll taxes. (I'm going to assume you know the difference)

If you had a kid or were head of household or your girlfriend wasn't on welfare, you might have missed out on a nice fat tax credit that would have lowered your tax liability to less than zero.

As far as your statement that "you'd gladly pay taxes" .... on this pittance..... is meaningless. It's sort of like the "friend" who says he'd like to buy lunch if he HAD ANY MONEY - but never seems to - so while you pick up the tab for the the $45.12 bill, he digs in his pocket through the lint & sawdust and comes up with a dime & two pennies and you have to come up with the two twenties & a ten. Yeah, your friend would just love to pay....if he only had any money...

What a nice senitment. Thanks.

I didn't read any further in your post because frankly, your opinion is worth about as much as you are contributing to America. Perhaps a better job would pay you bigger dividends than giving naive advice to strangers on a forum.

Robert,

I have a pretty good grasp of math, or I wouldn't have passed the Professional Engineer exam. And it is highly likely that there was fraud in some of the voting. I cannot say. I have made my point about ethics - neither side has any - so I would be more surprised if there WAS NOT fraud, than if there was.

I believe there was a lot of fraudulent exit polling, as well. If all the polls you refer to were done by professional unbiased pollsters on large samples, in areas of mixed demographics, they would mean a lot more than, for instance, if they were taken by very liberal college kids, working for a Democratic organization, with the stated goal of demonstrating fraud.

Anyway, I can't help you. You will have to fight this battle on your own. Maybe there was more fraud on Bush's side than Kerry's side. Personally, I doubt it.

Your last example...."THE CHANCE THAT EXIT POLLS AND TABULATED VOTES COULD HAVE DIVERGED BY 5-1/2% RANDOMLY IS ONE IN 959,000...."

reminds me of a DNA test where a man is shown to be responsible for a murder....the odds of him not being the perp are one in 345 million or whatever. Then it turns out that the samples in the lab were all mixed up so the tester just used the suspects sample and compared it to the suspect's sample. You dig?

Your 959,000 comment destroys any faith I had in your position. I've heard Jehovah's witnesses say something similar...it goes like this....evolution is random chance....the odds that a tornado going through a junkyard and building a complete 747 jet is about 456 trillion to one. Therefore....and then they go on to tell you how their belief makes sense.

Robert, you need to put that argument away...if you are poor at math, DON'T TRY TO BLUFF.

BVAC,

You really aren't saying anything to me. If you want to believe that they youth voter turnout is increasing, please be my guest. And if you want to believe young progressives are knowledgeable, ditto.

Your beliefs & views are, frankly, very naive.

You really aren't saying anything to me. If you want to believe that they youth voter turnout is increasing, please be my guest. And if you want to believe young progressives are knowledgeable, ditto.

Your beliefs & views are, frankly, very naive.

What I have done, and you can go back and check on this, is make a statement of fact. 5 million more young voters in 2004 than in 2000. The only age group voting decisively against Bush. Your snide dismissal of this ("please be my guest") is an indication that you can't address the facts. Where is your argument? Answer: you have none.

And young progressives? I disagree with their methods and intentions most of the time. The ones I known personally, I find their depth of thought in most issues, quite frankly, naive. This is what the media and electoral system has done to the nation at large. However, your claims about their knowledge of "what Kerry's job is" and "who his running mate is" remains unsubstantiated absent any evidence. Example: the infamous poll showing that 67% of Fox news viewers believe that Saddam was "working closely with Al-Qaeda".

Buckshot says:
"As far as your statement that "you'd gladly pay taxes" .... on this pittance..... is meaningless. It's sort of like the "friend" who says he'd like to buy lunch if he HAD ANY MONEY - but never seems to - so while you pick up the tab for the the $45.12 bill, he digs in his pocket through the lint & sawdust and comes up with a dime & two pennies and you have to come up with the two twenties & a ten. Yeah, your friend would just love to pay....if he only had any money...

What a nice senitment. Thanks."

Big Tobacco says:
Screw you. I work hard. And you don't even know how much time or money I spend to help people just like me. I bet you never had a homeless father, either. Why don't you go set a homeless person on fire or rape your housekeeper.

Buckshot doesn't have the 1000 dollars he promised. Sorry, brad. Poor people's taxes don't count to Bigshot.

You Go - BigTobacco.

Bucksnot is a pathetic loser. He has no clue. He's worse than a maggot.

Buckshot, the ONE-IN-959,000 figure does not come from me. It comes from a panel of twelve statisticians and mathematicians from prestigious American colleges. Their report is in wide circulation, and has been for months now.

I'm not hurt that you've lost faith in my position, because you haven't. You've lost faith in the expertise of a dozen people who have more brains in their pinky fingers than you and I together have in our whole bodies.

Robert,

I have a pretty good grasp of statistics & math in general. It's one of my interests - always has been. I always excelled in math, could do advance multiplication of fractions & decimals in my head, etc. Loved statistics challenges & puzzles.

Now, as you can see from my writing style, English Comp was not a favorite! (although I generally was a good speller).

Your argument about the 959,000 to one.... is a logical fallacy known as "an appeal to authority".

Here's an analogy - I'll use the poor folks/income tax example I mentioned earlier. A young progressive might say "I know that the poor pay a higher rate of income tax than the rich BECAUSE a panel of good, RESPECTABLE people told me so, and therefore you should believe it, also".

You can show them official data from the IRS showing that the bottom two quintiles don't pay any income tax at all and it doesn't sway them. They have their authority figures (Clinton, Franken, Kennedy, Jesse Jackson, Louis Farrakan, etc etc, telling them something, and by golly, that's good enough for them.

So your argument falls on it's face as an example of the "logical fallacy" known as "an appeal to authority".

BTW, study of the logical fallacies is another interest of mine.

Robert,

For whatever reason, my reply didn't post.

Anyway, your logic on the one-in-959,000 is a perfect example of the logical fallacy known as an "appeal to authority".

I'm sure you're familiar with it. You're smarter than to use that on me, aren't you?

Bvac,

The issue of the youth vote gets sticky for several reasons. Many thousands of articles have been writtne on the subject, full of statistics & percentages. Some consider the "youth" to be 18-25. Some consider the youth to be 18-29. Some talk about the percentage of youth as a percentage of total voters. Others refer to the youth turnout as the percentage of youth who voted.

It's easy to get crosswired and be talking about two entirely different things.

Yes, there were a few million young voters who turned out this time. There were also many million more older voters. So the percent of the voters who were 'YOUTH" stayed the same.

But yes, you are correct to state that more young people did vote.

Now for your comment that this group voted AGAINST BUSH, the ballots are not written for you to vote AGAINST anyone. They voted for Kerry mostly. A few percent voted for 3rd party candidates & the rest voted for Bush.

I know, Kira. But he is such a big baller, putting up thousand dollar pledges if someone would just answer his questions (demonstrating that poor people pay income tax)... that it is a bit disheartening to hear that he doesn't read things that offer contrary evidence to his positions, if they happen to conflict with his opinion.

I mean, I can let the thousand dollars I had asked him to send the Catholic Worker slide... But I know that Brad could do a lot of good with that loot. I think he should send Brad a check or just troll around under some other Billy Goat's bridge...

I tried to communicate with the fellow in a respectful manner, but to mock me for living in poverty while putting myself through grad school so that I could avoid living on welfare is just totally lame. He has demonstrated that he is a man of poor character.

Agreed, BT. Rest assured, we all know the tax rates and we all know everybody is taxed and we all know the rich hire lawyers to find loopholes so they don't have to pay their taxes plus bush has given them other breaks. We just didn't want to waste any more time with this BS idiot - he's just full of BS.

The big corporations are free from paying the taxes they should be paying --- don't you know their 18-wheelers cause more wear & tear on the highways than the average citizen's car. We pay taxes for services that we all enjoy --- that's what taxes are for.

The bad thing is that our government is so corrupt right now --- who can tell where our tax money has gone.

People who don't want to pay taxes are of the freeloader mentality. Just like the neoCON group in charge right now.

Buttsnot is a white nationalist. He is a racist pig. Ignore him. He doesn't know the first thing about statistical analysis, but then few of us do. Most of his views can be found here.

http://home.ddc.net/ygg/

dressed up pretty well for public consumption.

It, buttsnot, is also insane. Like Hitler.

I predicted 150,000 American deaths before the war started. We have yet to scratch the surface. The middle east will be in civil war for many years, and I don't expect the draft to begin anytime soon. Instead, I see massive enlistment bonuses - in the neighborhood of $50K or more. Tens of thousands of minority women (who are less than worthless in combat) will eagerly join, take the money, get pregnant, and then go home. It's a better bet than welfare in the 'hood.

Get used to it, you left of center folks. Rally your troops. See if you can boost that 18-25 age group turnout UP to 19% next election.

It was up 20% during the last election, the youth vote.

Buttshot, you are a cretin. What exactly is the IRS, if not an authority. The study that he Cites is an independent authority that we choose to accept. The fact that you don't is inconsequential. You are neither an authority or without your own ideological agenda and most here will know what that is by now. Drop dead.

...JIMMO said on 6/13/2005 @ 6:31pm PT...

Why It's Time to Deport Liberals

You are absolutely right, Jimmo. This cutting and running shit has got to stop. We are going to stand and fight and take this country back and begin wasting you wingnuts again like we did at Ruby Ridge and Waco. War is hell, ain't it, Bucko?

BT,

Again,

You have to SHOW me something. You can't just SAY "Poor people pay income taxes", and call it good.

You are just using the generic term "taxes" so I assume you are just lumping them all into one massive group.

I was very clear with my offer - you must show me that poor people pay income taxes. Anything else is not covered.

Kira,

You say "We all know that "everyone" is taxed.....

Well, surprise, girl. The bottom 20 percent of wage earners in America do not pay a single penny in income taxes. If you can show me they do, I will pay you the grand, and a grand to Brad.

Put up or ....

I provided a chart of tax rates.

If income tax rates don't cut it... then I don't know how else to prove it except to take away your money and force you to pay taxes.

You even scoffingly agreed that I paid maybe 200 measly dollars in taxes... which is still income tax. And, I don't know if you have ever tried living off 8000 or 9000 dollars a year.... but if you do, every penny matters. It is not a joke.

BT,

I didn't see any tax rates, and you don't say where you posted them. I'm not interested in searching for them. Either present them, tell me where you presented them, or don't.

comment 36.

BT,

Let's say your income was $10,000 and you are married with one kid.

Your standard deduction is $9700 for married filing jointly. That wipes out all but $300 of your income right there. Now you still get a deduction of 3100 for each of you (another $9300)

That leaves you a negative $9000. Your taxable income is zero.

You could have earned $9000 more and still had no income tax liability.

This is why it is pointless for low income folks to complain about not getting an income tax cut. They haven't paid any income tax. What is there to cut?

Rich people (and middle earners) got an income tax cut because they PAY INCOME TAX.