The poor bastards won't have Uday ( or Qusay) Hussein to torture them after they finally do lose in the Olympics, but nooo we can't mention that. The people the army killed had it coming. This is war. Kill or be killed. They knew what could happen when they picked up their weapons.

Damn the parents of those fetuses for not aborting their children, knowing full well they would be raised in Iraq and have death coming to them!

Not all civilians tote bazookas, ed. We can (and should) at least acknowledge our mistakes as we struggle with this war. Casualties will happen, but it's the casual way Americans shrug off the casualties that should considered.

Uh, Ed, if you'd bothered to read the article, you'd see that they do speak of Uday. These are the people who are were tortured under him speaking. I'd think you'd give them some credence. I guess not.

As to those who "had it coming" to them, do you mean one of the insurgents in this box?

...Perhaps you're confusing the military dead in Iraq (and there were 30,000 by Tommy Franks estimates as of April '03) with the civilian deaths. That 11,619 being the minimum with some independent field studies (as of last October '03) being as high as 37,000 instead for the civilian dead.

Of those, nearly half were children.

But I guess they "deserved it" for...um...living under Saddam Hussein or something?

ed,

that is one of the most disgusting things you have posted. This war has taken the lives of more civilians than military. In the first phase of the war 2000 Iraqi military died; about 10000 civilians died. WHy? cluster, smart and bunker buster bombs that kill without asking for identification. Since that phase ended an additional 5000 civilians have died, including wedding parties, etc. This is the very definition of a war crime.

I love the spin you put on this.Your "Bush is the terrorist man" rhetoric is so tiring. The responsibility for the unfortunate picture Brad displayed lies equally with the Iraquis who insist on continuing a war they cannot win. We could have been out out of there long ago. They insist on the cowardly attacks on our military personnel and do not expect us to respond? This is not a case of Nazis lining Iraqis up against a wall and shooting them. They could have chosen to put their weapons down and saved many lives on both sides. But you choose to lay the blame for everything in Iraq and it seems like since the dawn of time on the Bush administration.

That was no wedding party!

Cluster bombs are used to destroy a military. If the cowards hide behind innocents, then civilian casualties are going to happen. If the cowards hide in a mosque and fire from a mosque, it becomes a military building and should be destroyed immediately. Civilians again will be killed.

Since Johnhp is 100% against war, including our imperialist involvement in WW1, I wonder if he justifies the US Civil War. Can't we all just get along? My heart bleeds!

John,

Disgusting is an understatement. Somehow, the people posting above have convinced themselves that murder is okay "sometimes".

Paul. Aren't you the super religious one?

I'd hate to have you on the police force. "WEll sorry judge, it ain't my fault! The drug dealer hid behind the kid, so I had to shoot the kid to get the criminal."

If I beat the crap out of you and you defend yourself by shooting me would you be justified? I think you would. You guys obviosly don't have a problem killing unborn children. Other than a few years whats the difference?? Brad never would give a time when he believes life begins but he does not consider a fetus a life even though it takes nourshment and grows.

Ed, are you a transvestite? Because until you have a vagina, don't talk to me about something you will never experience.

You think you're making a point but you're actually making yourself look more stupid. See, the issue is, you talk shit about someone else's unborn baby, but have no problem killing an innocent living child (in the name of "defense"). You're the hypocrite in this blood bath.

Tell me. You obviously think that a fetus is living because it takes nourishment and grows. Well, my ovaries take nourishment and each month they grow and produce an egg and wait patiently for sperm. Am I killing a child every month then by having protected sex? It's not that simple, is it?

The thing is, abortion should be prevented as much as possible (it's called safe sex. It's called sex education). Absolutely. But I don't need some guy controlling my reproductive organs. I'm sure you wouldn't feel good if women decided that men should be castrated.

Johanna - God destroyed Sodom, Gomorrah, and three other cities around the Dead Sea. God used Israel to wipe-out its enemies. I am not God of course, but is it ok for God to kill? Is it ok for God to use a Nation to destroy a Nation? God destroyed the earth by a flood. Was that OK? God struck people dead in the New Testament for lying, is that OK?

I love abortion Johanna, It kills many women and other undesirables.

> Am I killing a child every month then by having protected sex?

No. The sperm actually has to penetrate the egg and attach itself to the inner lining for it to be considered "life," which occurs at conception. Kerry believes the same way by the way.

"I am not God of course",

Well that's a relief.

" but is it ok for God to kill?"

I have no bloody clue! You're the religious one. You tell me! So what are you saying, that just because YOUR God killed thousands of years ago, that you're allowed to do it in the name of defense? What is THAT?!

And your God seems to kill as punishment. What did those innocent children ever do to anyone?!

"I love abortion Johanna, It kills many women and other undesirables."

Say what?

"No. The sperm actually has to penetrate the egg and attach itself to the inner lining for it to be considered "life," which occurs at conception. "

Now hold on a second. What if we were to create little tiny microscopic terminators to stand guard by our eggs and pull the darn little sperms out of the egg the second they penetrate the egg. Is this abortion?

"Kerry believes the same way by the way. "

I don't give a sh*t what kerry believes, but you're right with one thing, it's what people believe. It's not a theorem that can be proven. It's a BELIEF. Just like your religion. Therefore, accept the fact that others might not believe what you believe and let them be. Stop trying to control them.

And paul, be a man this time and finish what you started. You like to start shit but back off the minute I bark back.

No I don't have one but I played one on TV. I believe a transvestite is a crossdresser so your question confused me. Glad to hear your view on abortion and you missed one. Abstinance is the only ABSOLUTE way to prevent pregnancy. I have a daughter who I could not convince and a granddaughter to prove it. Is it unreasonable maybe but it is foolproof. Except for those pesky Immaculate Conceptions. I am not for the innocent murder of ANY children (born or unborn) but my point was the whole episode could have been prevented had the real insurgents given it up. The blood is on their hands not Dubyas.

Ed, sorry for the confusion. I meant, "unless" you have a vagina (meaning, you're dressing & posing as a male, but you're actually a female).

I strongly disagree with your last comment. The blood is on everyone's hands (including mine, for not being more pro-active and stopping this). Until everyone takes responsibility, it'll just keep on happening.

Waiting patiently for Paul's reply....

Technology and sonograms are indicating that life does begin at conception. That is not a belief.

God created life and he can destroy it. And, we will all face judgment someday.

We have a right to protect ourselves and protect others. Our government has the right to protect us from our enemies. The problem is, liberals do not understand what evil is and therefore do not understand who our enemy is.

ed,

"If I beat the crap out of you and you defend yourself by shooting me would you be justified?"

Then you may be at odds with the law. i hate to point this out but killing someone for beating you up is not a legal defense. Killing someone while defending your life is another story.

As for having been out of there a long time ago, you are wrong on two counts. You know, or in fact should know, that the military presense in Iraq was always for years to come. Secondly, we never should have used military force. The best intel at the time, which this Administration ignored, said that Iraq would have been disarmed within six months.

Paul,

Yes. it was a wedding party.

i want to point something out to you. about these bombs. Rumsfeld said the bombs were so accurate that you could destroy a tank under a bridge and leave the bridge in tact. Your attempt to misrepresent what happened, the fact that we bombed major urban centers, just doesnt wash against the claims of the Administration.

As for pacifism, i never claimed to be a pacifist. i believe that the use of force, even military force, can at times be justified. i find it difficult to justify a war that has no basis in reality. NMow WMD etc. Was Hussein a bad character? yeah but he was at his worst when he was our ally in the 80s. To use his actions when we were supplying him with weapons, tech etc. is political cynicism. To suggest that we are bringing democracy to Iraq when this Administration is at the same time attempting to undermine democracy in Venezuala is twilight zone material. Thats really the only place that this Administration's policies make sense.

The moral depravity and utter disregard for human life displayed in the comments by Paul and Ed display little more than the desperation they must be feeling as their heroes are about to lose control of the White House (and if the Gods are with us, the House and Senate to boot).

The *notion* that we are killing these people in Iraq "in our own defense" is simply absurd.

Iraq was no threat to us. At all. Period. Zero. Whatsoever. According to folks who actually know, who were and are on the ground there. Not according to the folks (like Paul and Ed) with nothing more than a political agenda, and a lack of morality.

Ed seems to love saying "if they would just lay down their arms and role over to the aggressors here, everything would be fine, so it's their fault if they die --- including babies, women and children".

Presumably, if Iraqi's marched into Texas, took it over, and Ed decided to fight for his home, it would be his own fault if he, his wife, his daughter and granddaughter all died. Since they should have just turned over their guns, property and life to the invading Foreigners instead of fighting.

How pathetic and morally bankrupt these folks have become now that it looks like they will be losing the power they so crave to control the Whitehouse, the country, the people, and every one else's country while they're at it.

John,

Venezuela? C'mon.... backing a coup leader who then gains power in an election and rewrites the laws to his own benefit... sounds like someone else in history, doesn't it?

Not that this isn't fun, but I hope Brad, Jaime or JHP chime in because obviously a woman's voice isn't getting through your thick skull, Paul.

"Technology and sonograms are indicating that life does begin at conception. That is not a belief."

Stop dodging my questions, Paul.

And how the heck does technology prove that life begins at conception exactly!?

"And, we will all face judgment someday."

Let me know what He says when you tell him that the reason you supported the murder of those innocent children was because you believed they were evil.

Woops. Spoke to soon. Thanks Brad & John.

Teddy asked:
"backing a coup leader who then gains power in an election and rewrites the laws to his own benefit... sounds like someone else in history, doesn't it?"

Bush?
Musharrif?

Johanna, I replied above. The moral depravity these guys use to justify their twisted "beliefs" largely speaks for itself, however. So don't get too worried about Ed and Paul. They'll have their own god to answer to.

They will say whatever they need to say to justify their political agendas. Period. Life begins at the moment of conception as far as they are concerned, which means, the minutes old blastocyst should also be ready to walk out of the womb and be ready to get cluster bombed for being an insurgent.

They've got twisted morals, Johanna. It's all based on politics, not on religion, humanity or common sense. It's usually best to simply ignore such nut cases. They'll simply keep re-typing their Rightwinglish to you and never actually engage in a conversation.

In other words, let them swim in their own pigshit. They enjoy it, and won't be dissuaded. Power at all costs when it comes to the braindead footsoldiers on the Right.

Brad,

Thanks. And will do.

Brad,

I was just teasing John in a friendly way. Hitler had the Beer Hall Putsch, gained power legally and then re-wrote the laws. I'm not comparing the two, obviously. Though I am no fan of Chavez.

I knew who you were referring to, Teddy. But as you were tweaking, John, I thought I might (opportunistally) tweak you right back.

Seemed only fair

Now get to work and do what Bush is to cowardly or contemptable to do. That is, condemn your compatriots from the right side of the spectrum when they express despicably indefensible "opinions"!

In Bush's case, the lying and dishonerable Swift Vets. In your case, those W supporters seen above who regard the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians as folks who "had it coming".

Teddy,

Cute. But let's be clear Chavez was elected by a majority of Venezualens [Mr. Bush can't make a similar claim for his election here]. And the recall was defeated by a fair vote of almost 2 to 1. In my book that's a BIG FU to the folks who couldnt get power through elections and the Bush Administration. And i say, Viva Chavez.

Sad Story.

I heard on the radio this morning that a mother of two (a 2 year old and a 4 year old), took her kids out and got drunk. When she came back home, she left her kids in the car (92F weather) and went inside her air conditioned home and passed out.

Eight hours later, the father came home to find the two year old child dead and the 4 year old severly dehydrated.

I'm so glad she didn't have an abortion and gave that 2 year old a chance at life under her miserable care, leaving him to suffer a long and grueling painful death. I'm so glad she loved him enough to raise him for two years (seeing as how she was such a fit mother) only to have someone hold a gun to her head , forcing her to down all that alcohol, thus resulting in the death of her precious son. It's days this like, when I REALLY agree with you pro-lifers.

Living in Texas we hear about at least 5 of these cases each summer. If some one had suggested to this woman she get an abortion because they think she would be a bad mother they would have been accused of being a fascist.

Unfortunately you don't need a license to have a child. Only all the necessary parts. This is indeed a tragedy but nobody can tell bad parents not to have children. Poor Andrea Yates was a complete mental basket case and she (and her stupid husband) kept pumping them out until she finally snapped and drowned all 5 of them in her bathtub.

There is also another option, adoption. I had this conversation with my pregnant senior in high school and she would not listen. Now I can say I am glad she didn't. Do you want to make abortion mandatory for everyone under 21 or with an IQ under 100?? That would at least put the young and stupid out of business.

As a pro-lifer though I am offended you choose to blame us for her and all the other bad moms out there.

So there!!

ed,

Dont start throwing stones about pro-lifers and these people who kill their kids. Andrea Yates and hubbey were big time Conservative Christians. And remember when Newt Ginrich tried to say that Susan Smith'smurder of her kids could be traced back to liberal cultural attitudes. Of course he shut his mouth as soon as it was revealed that Smith's step dad was Beverly Russell, Republican Organizer, Christian Coalition organizer, who raised her with Smith's mom from the age of 6. Susan Smith was brought up in a cauldron of Conservative Christianity and was sexually abused by her stepfather. This was her allegation at age 15. Of course killing one's children and sexual molestation are not simply effects of Conservative Christianity but there is a correlation between "family annihilators" and "conservative" values. So when this topic is broached conservatives need to be careful unless, like Gingrich, they are going to have their words offered right back to them on a plate.

johnhp,

Bad parents come in all shapes, sizes, creeds and colors. Russell Yates was a Conservative Christian, Andrea was a nut. I blame him as much as her for the deaths of their children. You are also correct about Beverly Russell. He is a total scumbag who in some small way screwed Susan up so bad she felt she had no choice but to do what she did. The point is you can't have it both ways. Nobody knows at conception who will be a good parent or not. You can certainly guess but to suggest to someone they get an abortion because they might potentially be bad parents as johanna suggested reeks of the fascism you despise. Whether it is a conservative Christian nutball or a liberal drunk who leaves her kids in the car the result is the result is just the same and just as tragic. I am large enough and therefore will not be eating my words.

No, telling someone they *must* get an abortion reeks of facism. As does telling someone they *can't* get an abortion.

Facism, as defined by Meriam-Webster:
1 a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control

So yes, *forcing* someone to get an abortion would indeed be as fascistic as disallowing one because it would put the "nation over the individual" rights.

It would also be anything but "conservative".

THANK YOU BRAD!!!!!!!!

Ed-

Brad said it best. I'm not suggesting that people should be forced to have abortions (why the heck would I do that when everything I've said previously proves otherwise?!). But if the pregnancy isn't wanted, the mother should have the *choice* to abort that pregnancy. It's her body, it's her choice. That's why they call it a "woman's right to choose". Forcing someone to abort is the same as forcing someone to have the child (I'm plagiarizing Brad here. Well said).

OOOH!!! But I have a side note! Hm. Interesting thing you said. You're saying that we shouldn't abort if we think perhaps the mother would be a bad mother (so, in other words, no "preventative killing"). Gotcha. So , um...explain to me why you're okay with the "preventative killing" going on in Iraq at the moment? You know, the one where you said "The blood is on their hands not Dubyas." ?
Hm??

And let's say Andrea Yates didn't want those last 2 children. They may have been accidents. Had she terminated the pregnancies, the story would be a bit different, don't you think?

I'd also like to point out that I never ONCE said that the drunk woman who left her kid in the car was a liberal. Holy wrong assumption, batman.

ed,

i am not sure what you are responding to in terms of my post. i never claimed that one could tell at concenption nor did i suggest that conservatives shouldnt raise kids, nor, again, did i suggest that only conservatives are poor parents. i did suggest that conservative values are more associated with some pathologies that afflict families and i will stand by that assertion because it is simply a statement of fact. As i mentioned this is not to say that all conservatives become family annihilators or engage in incest and pedophilia. Nor is it to suggest that all people who engage in these pathologies are conservatives. it is just an observation that among the matrices that coincide to produce these pathologies one is likely to find, more often than not, a conservative and authoritarian ideology lurking about.

I don't believe they were. Like I said her husband played a huge part in that whole mess. He kept forcing the issue with her. I also have no idea as to the politics of the drunk woman. You did not give any indication where the story took place although it happens here way too often. She was probably way too into herself and her own interests to know or even care one way or the other.

Hm?? >

Apples and Oranges. We went over to remove a ruthless dictator (I don't know where Ruth went) not to slaughter the Iraqui people. This is not Germany invading Poland. I don't favor killing anyone. (death penalty excluded) Paul is exactly right when he talked about how the "army" hid behind the civilians. Remember the screwballs who went over as a "human shield"? Why exactly did they come home??

As far as abortion this is where I don't have a problem with "government interference" Your right to do with your body what you want ends where the child life begins. But I am not going there. None of you will say when you believe life begins. That is your way around the fact that it is wrong. With that argument you could say the woman chose to get drunk, chose to drive home, chose to kill her children by leaving them in the car but its ok because it was her choice.

Paul,

The weapons we used could not help but kill civilians. To suggest anyone thought otherwise is utter horsecrap. But to suggest that we couldn't help but kill civilians is also utterly untrue; at least according to the picture the Bush Administrationpainted going into this war. Rumsfeld said that our bombs were so accurate that the could take out a tank under a bridge and leave the bridge intact. Trouble is we didnt give a damn about people. You dont drop bombs in the middle of a city and then claim that killing civilians was not intended.

As for the reason for going to was, we should have known at the time, the best intel available (not coming from Chalabi) suggested otherwise. Why not trust that? The inspectors went to EVERY site we suggested and found nothing. That's what kills me about you right wing parrots. Whenever anyone calls into question the idea of WMD you all try to counter with the argument that Clinton Administration and the UN thought the same thing. That is pretty much bull. The Clinton Administration's position was based on old reports and incomplete inspections. The state of inspections just before the war was such that we should have known that our estimates of any stockpiles or programs, based on previous disclosires to the UN and Un inspections, were severely wrong. This invasion was wrong and all culpability flowing from it should be squarely placed at the feet of Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair.

And its almost exactly like Germany invading Poland. In August of 1939, the Germans manufactured intelligence that the Polish Army had attempted an invasion of Poland by dressing up concentration camps inmates as Polish soldiers, killing them, etc. When the faked photos were published, demands were made against Poland for the secession of territiory and when this was refused, Poland, a much weaker nation, was invaded. We can still see photos, for instance, of the Polish cavalry attempting to fend off the Panzers; that's right horses against Panzers. Why did Hitler move East?

"It is a question of expanding our living space in the East and of securing our food supplies *********over and above the natural fertility, thorough-going German exploitation will enormously increase the surplus."

We, of course, are not concerned with food but oil. This was not a war to make Iraq free, but to open its oils productivity to the West. It certainly wasnt a war against terror; out "allies" the Saud regime are much more hip deep in with terrorists.

and Bush is prancing around as if this war means nothing. he may as well have said this:

"It will make no difference whether this reason will sound convincing or not. After all, the victor will not be asked whether he talked the truth or not. We have to proceed brutally. The stronger is always right."

Yes, an agrressive war; yes, just like Poland.

"She was probably way too into herself and her own interests to know or even care one way or the other."

No argument here.

"We went over to remove a ruthless dictator"

Sure, sure. You just keep telling yourself that. That must be the only way you sleep at night.

"This is not Germany invading Poland."

See Paul's response for this.

"I don't favor killing anyone. (death penalty excluded)"

Do I want to open this can of worms..? Do I?

"Your right to do with your body what you want ends where the child life begins."

Where do you (a man) get off telling ME where MY rights end? I am not a godamn incubator! In your world, you could go impregnate a girl at night while she's sleeping, and that's it! She's screwed!!! What about this date rape drug (wassit called again?)??

So. Imagine this. A**hole and his friends give the girl this drug. They take her limp and drugged body back to their dorm rooms. They rape her. They impregnate her. And according to you, her rights end because a life in her may have started? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?!

Tell me. What do you think of the morning after pill? Do you consider it to be abortion too? Because doctors and scientists around the world call it birth control...but technically, "life" has started at that point. So , is it murder? If that poor raped girl had taken the morning after pill, is she a murderer?

"None of you will say when you believe life begins."

Because it's irrelevant. You're using "life" as an excuse to have more control. It's all about control (you son of a ... ugh!!). Just like you use this whole "ruthless dictator" crap as an excuse to justify going into Iraq (also to gain more control).

You have NO regard for life , I can guarantee it. Are you a vegetarian? Are you? Do you eat dead animals who were slain for your appetite? Because they were "living" too , weren't they? But you have no problem eating meat to satisfy your hunger. Why is an animal's life less important than the fetuses you keep babbling about? Just because we are the dominant species on earth?

The reason I bring up these "apples" and "oranges" is so you can see how subjective your arguments really are. You have the right to believe what you want, I'm not telling you to believe otherwise.
But it doesn't mean others don't have the right to believe what they want. Let them be.

Look up conservative in the dictionary. It'll mention something about "being close minded". I guarantee it. Why? Because that's what conservatives are. They believe what they believe and want the entire world to be like them. They'll force it on them if they have to. And they'll justify it by saying, "it's right".

Ugh.

sorry, my last post was directed at ed, not paul. My error.

That dictionary definition won't likely be there, Johanna. Because the folks you're talking to are not conservative in the dictionary definition. They are only "conservative" in the Political, Bush, Rush, Sean Hannity sense.

In other words, not really conservative at all. It's a hoax. Don't fall for it.

Beyond that, ask Paul (or Ed or whichever tweedle it was) if they'd like to punish the woman who has an abortion. To wit:

If a fetus is a life. And an abortion is a murder, then the woman must be tried for murder. Seeing as how Paul (and/or Ed) also supports the Death Penalty, then I guess any woman who has an abortion should also be put to death.

Do any "conservatives" call for that? Of course not, because it's both ridiculous and not politically viable. But that would be the only way for them to have a consistent political point of view.

So don't hold your breath.

Yes, if a women aborts, she and the doctor or the one performing it, should be held responsible. I met a guy who said he remembers blood dripping down the legs of women who had coat hanger abortion's. My wife said "At last the women lived." The aborted babies got cut to shreds and did not live.

I said earlier that I favor abortions. It gets rid of females and other undesirables - blacks, Jews, etc. You understand that I am kidding but you cannot argue with my statement. Abortion kills people of all race and genders - potential homosexuals, females, blacks, Jews, etc.

There was an article on Drudge about how the abortion issue may have hurt Democrats at the polls. Young people, before marriage, tend to vote Democrat. The millions of dead babies could have been potential Democrat votes is what the article was about.

Johanna, aren't you glad you were not aborted?

The problem I had with the current abottion laws is Johanna can have an abortion and her husband has no say. What about the fathers? I think they should have a right to in the decision. Current law says no.

All of you guys, by the way, need to get a life!

Yes, if a women aborts, she and the doctor or the one performing it, should be held responsible. I met a guy who said he remembers blood dripping down the legs of women who had coat hanger abortion's. My wife said "At last the women lived." The aborted babies got cut to shreds and did not live.

I said earlier that I favor abortions. It gets rid of females and other undesirables - blacks, Jews, etc. You understand that I am kidding but you cannot argue with my statement. Abortion kills people of all race and genders - potential homosexuals, females, blacks, Jews, etc.

There was an article on Drudge about how the abortion issue may have hurt Democrats at the polls. Young people, before marriage, tend to vote Democrat. The millions of dead babies could have been potential Democrat votes is what the article was about.

Johanna, aren't you glad you were not aborted?

The problem I have with the current abortion law is Johanna can have an abortion and her husband has no say. What about the fathers? I think they should play a part in the decision. Current law says no.

All of you guys, by the way, need to get a life!

Okay. First off, when you use me in your example, it irritates me. Cause you don't know me.

So stop that please.

Second of all, aren't I glad I wasn't aborted? I am very glad ACTUALLY that my parents had me when they were ready, provided a wonderful and loving home for me and raised me with as little hardship as possible.

Ask the same question to children with aids, dissabilities, those with FAS etc.. and they'll answer you differently. But I'd never expect you to understand that.

You know what? Frankly, I don't know why I'm irritating myself. I'm really tired of this conversation. You make no sense whatsoever and you're messed up. I can't believe you're line on "potential homosexuals". Ugh. You're twisted.

Oh and about the father having a say in the decision. If that EVER happens (you sexist, controlling, narrow-minded non-conservative MALE), trust me when I say, I will camp outside your house with a million other women and castrate you. Because if you can have a say in what happens to my body (see incubator comment above), then I can have a say in yours.

The funny and sad thing is Paul. I couldn't care less what you do with your body. You're a person and you deserve to make your own decisions, however wrong I think them to be. But you will NEVER be that gracious and human.

Now excuse me while I go throw up.

Funny you should mention rape. With your argument if abortion is legal (and it is) then rape should certainly be legal. What I do with MY body is no ones business. Besides in cases of rape you can take care of that the next day and even Dubya believes in abortion in cases of incest. If you can't do the time johanna don't do the crime.

ed,

let me be the first to commend you on both the disgusting nature of your remarks and the height of your illogic. During rape you are involving the body of another. Of course if your disgusting point was made to suggest that abortion involves the body of another, you are, of course, incorrect speaking purely in terms of biology.

Sorry johnhp, but after a certain point I believe it does involve another body and I have lots of company ( just not on this blog). That is where we will always disagree. For the record I do not believe in rape but if you are are all against government interference in any form then you should be willing to take the good with the bad. I don't think Brad believes there should be laws against anything. I would love to hear otherwise.

> I can't believe you're line on "potential homosexuals". Ugh. You're twisted.

Was my statement not true? Twisted perhaps but true. If it is not true, tell me how it is not true.

Ed, these guys care more about a bald eagle egg than a human life. It's wrong to have a baby at a prom and throw it in the dumpster yet it is ok a day earlier to go to a doctor and get its brains sucked out.

I guess leftist johnhp does not believe in Psalms Chapter 139.

Ed - How do you think the Cowboys will do this year? Do you think it was ok to abort Quincy?

I think johnhp is a Wiccan.

Quincy was not wanted. Suck is brains out. Enough said.

I think the 'Boys will be improved but it may not show in the results. Tougher schedule this year you know.

Is Johanna a manhater?? Or just a Paulhater?? I believe she threatened to castrate you earlier. I think she 'll do it.

johanna - Ed thinks that you are threatening me with castration. Go ahead! Come and camp on my yard with one million women.

The reason why you are irrated is because your belief, based on emotion, falls apart when confronted with the truth. Abortion kills! It kills women, etc. When an eagle is pregnant, it has an eagle. When a cow is pregnant, it has a cow. When a bluebonnet drops a seed, a bluebonnet grows from it. When you got pregnant Johanna, you had a human. Humans come as males and females, black and white and red and yellow and brown, American and Canadian, etc.

What are you smoking? Both of you. Seriously.

You've both said so much crap that's it's not worth replying to. If I don't reply though, you'll accuse me of backing down when you present and "argument". By the way, shit isn't an argument.

So here I go.

First off, JHP, good post @ 11:37 am. Love it.

>Was my statement not true? Twisted perhaps but true. If it is not true, tell me how it is not true.

What makes me laugh is that you think I would go out and abort should I get pregnant tomorrow. Not the case jackasses.

What you don't understand is what Brad pointed out to you earlier. You should back off and stop trying to control something you will never experience. You will never get pregnant. Get over it. Let the women handle this.

I brought up a million issues you failed to address too (the morning after pill being one of them). We just don't see abortion in the same way.

"Ed, these guys care more about a bald eagle egg than a human life. "

Paul. Don't pretend you care about "human" life.
There are plenty of LIVING humans you are doing nothing to help.

"yet it is ok a day earlier to go to a doctor and get its brains sucked out. "

No it's not, you jackass. But it's equally wrong to rape a girl and expect and FORCE her to have the child.

"Is Johanna a manhater?? "

Nope. I'm a hater of control freaks and narrow minded people.

"Or just a Paulhater?? I believe she threatened to castrate you earlier. I think she 'll do it. "

Only if you make a decision to control my body will I castrate him.

"Ed thinks that you are threatening me with castration. Go ahead! Come and camp on my yard with one million women. "

Like I said. Illegalize abortion and I will.

"The reason why you are irrated is because your belief, based on emotion, falls apart when confronted with the truth".

*LOL* You're so sad it's funny. I'm irritated cause you're full of shit.

"Abortion kills!"

Technically, so does birth control then.

"It kills women, etc. When an eagle is pregnant, it has an eagle. When a cow is pregnant, it has a cow. When a bluebonnet drops a seed, a bluebonnet grows from it."

Omigod. You've done it. You're completely gone.

"When you got pregnant Johanna, you had a human."

Um, when the f*ck did I ever say I have a child?
What's wrong with you? How can anyone take you seriously when you even make up lies about me ? ??????

"Humans come as males and females, black and white and red and yellow and brown, American and Canadian, etc. "

But you only like the white ones.

We are getting to her Paul. Don't let up.

johanna , I did mention the morning after pill. I personally do not have a problem with it. Especially in cases of rape or incest or the health of the Mother. Other than that it is wrong, it is Murder. War is not murder. War is war.

But you only like the white ones.>

We find this comment very offensive. You don't know us so don't judge us. What are YOU doing up there in the great White north to help the dying people you accuse Paul of not lifting a finger for??
Hockey players and cold fronts? What else is Canada good for?

"johanna , I did mention the morning after pill. I personally do not have a problem with it. Especially in cases of rape or incest or the health of the Mother. "

Thank you for totally contradicting yourself and proving that you are totally talking shit.

LIFE (in your definition) is created the morning after. By ingesting that pill...it's the SAME THING as abortion..Hypocrite.

"We find this comment very offensive".

We do, do we?

"You don't know us so don't judge us."

Right back at you.

" What are YOU doing up there in the great White north to help the dying people you accuse Paul of not lifting a finger for?? "

Well, let's see. For starters. If I lived in the States, I wouldn't vote bush. That's what YOU are doing.

"Hockey players and cold fronts? What else is Canada good for? "

You're just trying to provoke me here. Nice try.

johanna,

First off Canada is a beautiful country and I am visiting later this year.

Now, You are surely intelligent enough to know the difference between a lump of cells after an all nighter and a 3 month fetus. If I misjudged you I apologise.

I don't HATE anyone. I hate their sin. I hate my sin. But I don't hate any group of people. Voting for Bush does not constitute as the zealots on this board would have you believe.

Finally, thanks for Neil Young and Rush but please take Shania Twain back.

Have a nice day johanna

Brad,

This has gotta be a record. 51 posts now .

Ed, Shania Twain won't come back. We've begged her time and time again but she likes it too much over there. Maybe you should get people to stop buying her CD's. And while you're at it, send Celine Dion and Avril back too, will ya?

You sound a lot like a certain someone by the way. Actually, I'm quite convinced you might be him. Tell me, do you have your own blog?

ed,

we are not concerned with belief here; after all, some people still believe that the earth is flat, that the moon landing was statged, etc. Biologically speaking you are simply incorrect up to a certain point of development. You and i agree that AFTER a certain point, but the issue concerns BEFORE that point and your statement is just illogical and disgusting.

As for government interference, i made no such statement either way, you did and assumed it applied to a situation where it did not; i.e., between two distinct individuals. You are simply wrong and your example is inappropriate.

ed & paul,

i have not stated my opinion regarding abortion. If you can find a statement to the contrary please do so.

Pauil, in the future i would ask that you not speak of the Bible since you have in the past rejected its principles in favor of the pagan teach a man to fish value.

Oh yes...The "you're wrong because I said so" argument. Good one Paul.

JHP - good call .

I do not reject it and did not reject it you bonehead.

The fish analogy was about political differences (conservative vs. liberal) and that it is more 'compassionate" to teach a man to fish than to just feed him everyday.

Ed...

Do you..?

For the lovely manhater Johanna - (woo - here she comes - look out boys - she'll chew you up)

> the morning after pill being one of them

I do not remember you bringing that up. You brought up examples of the sperm never reaching the egg, which is not conception.

> What are you smoking?

I do not and have never smoked the wacky weed but I bet my paycheck that more than one blogger on here does.

> What makes me laugh is that you think I would go out and abort should I get pregnant tomorrow.

I never said that and do not think that. You cannot read and you twist what I say - as I stated earlier.
Where were you educated?

> There are plenty of LIVING humans you are doing nothing to help

And what are you doing to help? Earlier I said I bet I out give and out help more than any three people combined on this blog. Liberals do not give!
The want the "government" to steal (higher taxes) from the rich and give to the poor.

Have you ever cooked for a soup kitchen? How much money do you give to charities? Have you brought a homeless person into your house and fed them? Have you been to Mexico to help with free healthcare? Have you ever let a convicted rapist stay at your house after getting out of prison? Have you ever visited a prison? Have you bought Christmas presents for total strangers? Have you taken someone (not a family member) to the doctor and paid for it?

> No it's not, you jackass. But it's equally wrong to rape a girl and expect and FORCE her to have the child

Have I ever stated my position on rape? I haven't. You cannot read.

> "Abortion kills!" Technically, so does birth control then.

Not true. No conception has occured.

Johanna - I thought you just had a child. That must have been Kimber. My apology.

Johnhp - Sorry, but it is clear that life begins at conception. And yes, you have not stated your opinion on abortion.

As anyone knows, if you want to be famous and become rich, Americans have to like and buy your music. I prefer British music/groups over American and Canadian music/groups. I'll take early Elton John, Beatles, Pink Floyd, Led Zep, ELO, Coldplay, Sting, etc., over anyone. And oh yes, Ed's favorite are the Stones.

BTW Johanna sorry for not capitalizing your name earlier. Simply an oversight.

Speaking of music, good article by Alice Cooper (only women bleed). He's coming to Canada, ay!

http://www.wnd.com/news/...cle.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40127

Alice Cooper: Anti-Bush acts treasonous morons
Legendary shock artist: 'Rock should never be in bed with politics'

Don Henley, one of my favorites (except he should shut up and sing) got booed -

http://www.wnd.com/news/...cle.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39761

Ed - I bet that Johanna and Johnhp also think that there are too many people in the world. Here is an opinion from January 2004 National Geographic:

"I'm embarrassed that the US still has such a high birthrate. Europeans have obviously figured it out that there are many benefits to couple having only one child - or none - as opposed to the financial, social, and environmental drawbacks of having multiple children....Fewer people on the planet means a better quality of life for everyone." Joelle Peebles, Santa Rose, California

Let's see how they respond! Let's see if they are for some kind of population control!

"For the lovely manhater Johanna - (woo - here she comes - look out boys - she'll chew you up)"

Not a manhater. Go back and read my post. And FYI I'm madly in love with my open-minded catholic boyfriend.

"I do not remember you bringing that up. You brought up examples of the sperm never reaching the egg, which is not conception."

Read again. It's called the scroll button.

"Where were you educated?"

Why should I tell you this?

"And what are you doing to help?"

Again. Why should I tell you this?

"Earlier I said I bet I out give and out help more than any three people combined on this blog. Liberals do not give!"

HAHAHAHA! You're a hoot. Really. I've said it before. I'll say it again. You should consider stand up comedy.

"The want the "government" to steal (higher taxes) from the rich and give to the poor."

Are you bananas? I like making money just as much as the next guy. I also know that you can't help where or what country you're born in. There's a thing called balance. And equal opportunity.

"Have you ever cooked for a soup kitchen?"

I don't like announcing about what I do. But yes actually.

" How much money do you give to charities?"

More than you know. One in particular, more than others.

" Have you brought a homeless person into your house and fed them? "

Whatever happened to teaching him how to fish? That sure flew out the window quickly, eh?!

"Have you ever let a convicted rapist stay at your house after getting out of prison?"

GOD NO! Why the hell would I ever want to do that?!

" Have you ever visited a prison?"

Again, yes I have. Funny you should ask.

" Have you bought Christmas presents for total strangers? "

Do you actually think you're the only one in the world who does this stuff? My class does this every year. They're 5 !!!! And I could name you quite a few other things NOT on your lovely little "I do this, therefore I am giving" list.

"Have you taken someone (not a family member) to the doctor and paid for it?"

*LOL* Omigod. This is just....too stupid to answer right now.

"Have I ever stated my position on rape? I haven't. You cannot read."

Um, ok?! Then what? It's okay for a woman to get an abortion if she's raped?

"Not true. No conception has occured."

"Conception" has also occured the day after a rape (when a woman might take the mornign after pill). By the way, i find it so funny (and sad) that you only use science when you *think* it backs up your beliefs.

"Johanna - I thought you just had a child. That must have been Kimber. My apology."

Oh yeah. It was her. No worries.

"Let's see how they respond! Let's see if they are for some kind of population control! "

I don't want to have the "infanticide" debate with you Paul. Actually, I don't want to have any debate with you at the moment. It's like talking to my shoe.

I am not talking about infanticide. I am talking about world population and your opinion of it.

Yes, if a woman is raped, I would say medical treatment to keep her from having the child. The morning after pill, an abortion, etc. However, the statistics of getting pregnant after a rape is something like .0001.

Most abortions occur because it is an
"inconvenience."

Is your Catholic boyfriend pro-life? If he is not, he is opposed to the Pope's teaching.

You would be surprised how many people actually do not give at all. I knew a guy that made $40,000 a year. He put $400 on his taxes for charitable contributions. Why? That was the limit for filing a 1040 EZ form. How much did he really give to charity? He told me "nothing!"

This is a repeat for JHP and Brad. Hopefully they will be satisfied.

A previous topic - Communists and Socialists for Kerry.

http://www.worldnetdaily...cle.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39627

The Democratic Socialists of America Political Action Committee is officially urging its members to work for the election of John Kerry in the 2004 presidential election.

http://www.worldnetdaily...cle.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34890

The Communist Party USA will not run a candidate for president, will not support progressive third-party bids but will instead throw its support behind the Democratic Party in an all-out effort to defeat President Bush and the Republican Congress.

http://www.iht.com/articles/535387.html

The North Koreans made it very clear, politely, that they want Mr. Kerry to win the election," said Kenneth Quinones, a former U.S. diplomat who was in Pyongyang this month for a Korean studies conference.

"Yes, if a woman is raped, I would say medical treatment to keep her from having the child. The morning after pill, an abortion, etc. However, the statistics of getting pregnant after a rape is something like .0001."

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No Johanna I don't. You don't happen to live in Victoria BC??

population. i believe in birth control and education for creating a sustainable world population. i certainly do not support forced abortions like Pat Robertson.

Paul,

the socialists and communists didnt endorse Kerry. They suggested their members vote for Kerry big difference, even though they disagree with him politically. In addition the communists are in the same light. What they are doing is supporting someone with whom they disagree politically to fight what they see as a greater danger. This was done in the 30s and 40s under the auspices of what was called a "united front" against fascists. Leftists who disagreed with each other would join with non-leftists to defeat what they saw as a greater enemy. It suggests neither support for a political program nor endorsement of a candidate.

No Ed.

Not in Bc.

Wow John! What a bunch of gobbledygook!

Endorse? Support?

If they vote for Kerry, they endorse him over Bush, they support him over Bush. Kerry gets communist and socialist votes instead of Bush.

Both of us are right!

Johanna - what does !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! mean ?

Have you gone psycho?

Paul,

Not at all. You obviously dont understand the principle of a united front. Or the simple difference between support and endorse. i may, or may not, support Kerry for office but that is by no means an endorsement of his policies.

The other issue, that you completely did not understand, was this issue of communists and socialists. The DSA and the CPUSA are not the only socialist or communist organizations in America. There are the SDs, the RCP, the WW, IWW, SLs, etc etc. Many of these organizations do not vote for candiates. Indeed, i would challenge you to find an endorsement of Kerry's policies either on the DSA or CPUSA website. You wont find them. You will find criticisms of his policies.

Bush not getting the socialist and communist vote is harldy shocking; i bet he will get the neoconfederate vote though.

It means I rest my case.

johnhp,

You forgot the most communist orginazation of all. The PTA. Attend one of their meetings some day.

So John HP, you are a member of all of those leftist groups? Do you write for all of those groups?

The CPUSA 2004 Platform reads like the Democrat Party platform. Wow! If Americans only knew how closely aligned the Democrat Party is to the Communist Party USA. I think they have an idea. The founding fathers would roll over in their graves. This is not your father's Democrat Party!

http://www.cpusa.org/art...le/articleview/589/1/27/

Build Unity! Defeat Bush and the Ultra Right!
What we need today --- a program for working people
ELECTION PLATFORM 2004, COMMUNIST PARTY USA

Communism has failed everywhere it is tried!!!!!

Johanna - All I wanna do is wake up in the morning and see your eyes, Johanna, Johanna....

Johanna,

If you want to meet my wife and I in Victoria we can burn pictures of Paul to keep warm.

Paul,

The cpusa reads just like moveon.org

Paul,

"So John HP, you are a member of all of those leftist groups? Do you write for all of those groups?"

i am not sure where you get the idea that i am either a member of or write for any of these groups. i don't have to be a mamber to know what a group stands for. In fact, many of these groups are opposed to each other.

i think your remarks about the CPUSA and the democrats are pretty off the mark. If you could go through point by point and show the similarities i think that would make for an interesting discussion.

Ed,

I haven't been to Vancouver in 3 years...

Have a great time there with your wife. If you have time, go see Victoria too.

Paul said:

"Communism has failed everywhere it is tried"

I see China still exists and their economy is booming. Has communism failed in China Paul?

jaime,

according to some communists i know, China's political and economic system is best referred to as state capitalism. And forget about what my associationist friends call it. Either way lets not forget that some of our largest corporations are in bed with those dictators and find their society "good for business".

Jaime,

Start a blog over there and see how long it takes them to throw you in jail or run over you with a tank.

Johanna,

We won't make it to Vancouver but are planning to see the Gardens in Victoria.

Thanks

Johanna, sweetheart, my parents are in Vancouver and going to Victoria as I write. I have been to Vancouver via Seattle by ferry, Banff, Lake Louise, Calgary, Head Smashed In Buffalo Jump, Windsor, PEI, New Brunswick, and Nova Scotia.

I will probably take my gorgeous wife to Vancouver and Victoria next year. I will spend hard earned American dollars in your country and that will trickle down through your economy.

America has a policy for China which is different than the one for the USSR. You should know that! Communism, hopefully, will fail in China like everywhere else. Once Castro dies, I think you will see changes in Cuba.

If communism is so good, why is North Korea so destitute? Why are there tons of Cubans in Miami? Why was the former Soviet Union a third world country? Why am I wasting my time?

State Democracy? That's great! The US is a Representative Republic.

You are right Ed. If Jaime made a derogatory blog comment about the head of state in China, he would have his head on a slate.

Johanna,

Do you want to know what we do for a living or just Brad??

Paul,

Capitalism is not democracy; just ask the people of Chile who were subject to years of the free marketeers under Pinochet.

Paul said yet again:

"I bet I out give and out help more than any three people combined on this blog."

No, really...didn't you tell us you were a man of god? Doesn't the bible have something to say about charity and how it is to be given?

I'm sure someone who knows the bible better than me can clear that up.

As to comparing the Dem platform to the CPUSA platform, to suggest they are "the same" would suggest to me that you didn't read either of them.

"http://www.cpusa.org/article/articleview/589/1/27/

Well ladies and Gentle men this is war...civilans will die, there has not been a single war where no civilan has not parished.

Most of you think that Bush is wrong for starting this war...well I have to go half n' half on this one...I have no respect for Bush ingeneral but starting this war with Iraq is making our life and there life a lot easier.
Taken Saddam out of command was the best thing for that country. You complain that America has killed to many civilans...well when he was president he killed about 10 times more than we have killed.

But seeing how Saddam is already taken out of command I do believe it is time for us to bring our troops home, Bush saying we need more troops over there...is totally opposite of what needs to happen. We need to watch ourselfs with North Korea and China, Iran and even Japan.
Bush is runing everything this country once had and those of you who disagree with me are wrong and need stop thinking about the poor Iraqi's.

If you have a problem with how our country is being run then why don't YOU run president? Being a soldier, a single mom, and someone that believes freedom is worth fighting for I will say this IF YOU DON'T LIKE FREEDOM NO ONE IS KEEPING YOU IN AMERICA.