I am with Jack Murtha. This Iraq debacle has turned the world against us, and it seems that each memorial day during it has some atrocity that turns the world further against us.

Murtha says that the massacre is worse than Abu Gharib.

Will the American flag become a symbol of oppression, massacre, torture, invasion, and occupation?

Many flags have gone down that road, and there is no magic that will prevent the American flag from becoming that symbol in the world.

The disgrace belongs primarily to the republican dictatorship who lied us into the invasion and occupation, torture, massacre, and ill will around the world.

Memorial day is not a day to forget our place in the world, nor to fight for our good name which the republican dictatorship has rubbed in the mud, as it has our flag.

Rep. Jack Murtha says (link here).

There should be a separate Memorial Day to remember soldiers who died in wars of choice, with the encouragement of leaders who had ulterior motives. Maybe we could call it Repentance Day.

Yes indeed RLM, that would be healing.

But the neoCons will try to tag along as the nation tries to find the original memorial day meaning. So lets watch the neoCons. Keep both eyes on them.

Some prominent neoCons are advocating for a takeover of the dems like they did the repubs.

They use days like memorial day to launch movements like PNAC which are funded and guided by the military industrial complex.

A couple of seed articles are here and here. These articles give me the willies. The neoCon virus is ready to mutate once again.

The neoCons are targeting the DLC, H. Clinton, as well as a few other leaders in the DLC. I wonder how much success they will have in infiltrating the dems of the DLC?

I do think the dems have more resistance to the neoCon virus, but once the dems have been given power in November, their resistance will weaken and the corruption of the neoCons will grow stronger. Power corrupts all who are exposed to it if the toxins in that power are not neutralized.

The positive side of this is we know how the neoCons work and what they want. We have seen them bring a republican dictatorship into power and then nurture it into a monster.

That recent experience will help us see how it can be nipped in the bud. The republicans did not see it coming, but the dems might.

We sure do. The anti-war movement has many facets, from Jack Murtha to Cindy Sheehan to Michael Moore. And blogs like this one.

So lets keep an eye on the infestations and nip it in the bud this time.

Watch the movie Outbreak (link here), with Dustin Hoffman, Cuba Gooding, Morgan Freeman, Kevin Spacey, and other able actors.

It shows how the neoCon mind can infest the military and political parties, and get to the point where the neoCons will kill Americans by the thousands to promote, build, and collect WMD.

The neoCon mind is beginning a plan to take over the dems because they now know that the people are going to spank the republican dictatorship.

From this memorial day forward the neoCons want to convert the republican dictatorship into a democratic dictatorship.

Let this memorial day be a day when we remember what the neoCons have done, a remembrance of their wrongs, and a day we dedicate ourselves to rid the neoCons from all political parties and our nation.

When our flag waves it should and must represent all that is good in humanity and in nations. And it is good Americans who must decide to embrace that greater good, which is a good that the world welcomes and needs, and which we also welcome and need.

A good which the neoCon mind sees as a restraint on their global invasion, global occupation, and global domination aspirations.

Memorial Day should be a day where liberals and conservatives can put aside partisan politics and focus on the sacrifice of our nation's veterans of all wars from 1776 Revolutionary War to 2006 Iraq veterans.

Please visit the "Paralyzed Veterans of America" site, send an e-card to a vet, and donate to their cause of caring for wounded veterans since 1946. I have donated many times and will continue to.
PVA Support Veterans site

And also the "Wounded Warrior Project" too!

I know this organization well. My husband is a paralyzed war veteran...and a liberal Democrat (as are many, many veterans). If you want to do something for paralyzed vets write letters to congress and the president to increase funding for VA hospitals. I am a nurse in a VA hospital and I can confirm that we are unable to provide the care necessary to meet the needs of our veterans.

Dredd #5 -

Yowie! Your two links are enough to freeze the cockles of a liberal heart. My God, what has happened to this country?

#6
I agree, Mike.
People may differ, of course, on how best to focus on & honor that sacrifice. But then, I think you & I can agree, that's one of the things all our vets fought for: the fact that in this country people can still--though I feel compelled now to insert the word 'sometimes' here--air differences of opinion without fear of reprisal. Do you think that's still true? Because our country's different now. I know on this site it's still true.

For instance, right now I'm wearing an afterdowningstreet.org tee-shirt that reads

HONOR OUR DEAD: DEMAND THE TRUTH.

A small gesture but political, yes, I guess it is.

Seems to me that maybe there are times when putting aside partisan politics to observe a moment of respect is akin to raising your right hand to salute but having to let go of your buddy's hand in the process & hearing him scream as he falls over a cliff to his death. Kinda like that.

My late husband was a veteran of the Air Force. He always said he had the best job in the service: repairing weather equipment. He was never in combat. I'm glad for that, because he was a very gentle soul. Selfish of me, I know. I'm sure there were many like him in every war, and there are no doubt many like him in Iraq right now.

If my husband were still with me today I would have shown him this:
link

It would have made him want to SCREAM, that last part especially, just like it did me. It would have broken his heart like it broke mine. Again.
Political? yes, it's political. Politics & crime & lies & blood & grief & shame are all woven into this, Mike, and it fucking breaks my heart. Sorry if that 'obscenity' bothers you. It's the larger obscenity that bothers me.
Peace,
Joan

While I respect and give honor to those who have fallen while protecting our country, I couldn't help but be upset yesterday when The Sacramento Bee ran the headline:

"The cost of a free and undivided republic"

And then proceeded to quote "The Great Divider".

Bush: "Because of the sacrifices of our men and women in uniform, two terror regimes are gone forever, freedom is on the march, and America is more secure."

Say what?!

From what I've seen, the Taliban is once again on the rise, Osama is still free and roaming the plains of Pakistan, our freedoms here at home are being severely eroded under the guise of National Security, most of the world has a greatly diminished opinion of us, if they haven't flatly turned against us, and this country hasn't been more divided than in the last several years, although they seem to be coming together lately against Bush and his corruption.

By no means do I mean to disrepect those who have sacrificed, but I find it disgusting that even in a tribute to them Bush still spouts his lies!!!!!

mike j - Did you get picked up for school in one of those Short school buses ?

This is my last post today. I am off to take care of our true American heros whom I am proud to serve and care for everyday.
I am no big fan of the president however I will give him a tip of the hat for this one. These right wing religious fanatic homophobes really take the cake! Geezz...

FROM THE AP:

At the White House, Bush signed the Respect for America's Fallen Heroes Act," passed by Congress largely in response to the activities of a Kansas church group that has staged protests at military funerals around the country, claiming the deaths symbolized God's anger at U.S. tolerance of homosexuals.

The new law bars protests within 300 feet of the entrance of a national cemetery and within 150 feet of a road into the cemetery. This restriction applies an hour before until an hour after a funeral. Those violating the act would face up to a $100,000 fine and up to a year in prison.

Peg C #8

You asked " ... what has happened to this country?" Even tho addressed to your God, who no doubt can give a better and more comprehensive answer than I can, I will answer what I suspect.

The first General to become president, that I can remember at this moment, was Eisenhower. He warned us about "the military industrial complex". Why would he do that?

Well, one guess I have is that he was a traditionalist who believed "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely". He knew that military power is not immune from this corrupting influence of power.

But we have not heeded his warning, and now we spend more money on our military than the rest of the nations of the world spend on their military collectively. That is, of 100% of the money spent on the military on the face of the earth, the United states of America spends at least 51% of it. And we are a small percentage of the population.

We are a militaristic nation that now is beginning to worship war.

We shall see if the general was correct, or if the neoCons are correct. We have rejected the general and have adhered to the chickenhawks of the industrial side of the illicit marriage of the military to the industrial complex. Their children are death, destruction, hatred, and darkness.

The good life is not one of the toys of these bastard children.

Another thing I see on this memorial day is the globalization of matters military.

Even tho the public outcry in reaction to the Dubai/UAE ports story was clear, the president has done an in your face to us, and has given over some factories to Dubai/UAE:

"... a Dubai-owned company would take control of nine plants in the United States that manufacture parts for American military vehicles and aircraft" (link here).

Yes, he laughs at the notion of being lower in the polls than criminal Nixon, and allows Dubai/UAE to take over industries that make military weapons!

What is driving these people ... one world government or what?

I agree with Mike J. that Memorial Day should be non-partisan (as distinct from bi-partisan). Where we might disagree is in not distinguishing between veterans of different wars.

Memorial Day started out as Decoration Day, an occasion to decorate the graves of Civil War soldiers. Later, as a gesture to veterans of the Spanish-American War and World War I, it was expanded. So far, so good.

Now, after two wars (Vietnam and Iraq) fought to conquer not the invaded country but for other reasons (stop Communism, send a message to China/Russia/terrorists, control oil, and at all events to aid the military-industrial complex that Eisenhower warned us about), it's time to make distinctions. Because neo-cons and uberpatriots, cleverly and deliberately, have equated "support for our troops" with support for immoral aggression.

To the extent men and women have been sacrificed on the altar of immoral aggression, they should be separately honored. For bravery, yes, but also out of sympathy for their ingenuousness. They were sold a bill of goods, and only a nationwide expression of conscience can redeem it.

For some reason today, I feel much older than I am.

To those who served - I could launch into rhetoric to express my gratitude to you, and how I feel about your sacrifice right now - everyone here knows how long-winded I can be. But I think the best way to say what I'm feeling today is - thank you.

We will not forget.

And to those on both sides of this war, who can't or won't understand how others can possibly feel the way they do...

LINK

It's never simple black or white you know.

War is a result of political failure . . . . . The deck was stacked for war & failure . . . J. O. J.

Eisenhower's farewell speech,.. warning of the encroaching military industrial complex.

Link the Eisenhower speech

Brad

There needs to be a correction in title of this thread. It should read "Remembering our Sons & Daughters"

Thanks.

How do you ask a man to be the last to die for g. w. bush's money?

KestrelBrighteyes #16

"Never say never".

Black and white exist for a very good reason. So does grey.

It is so we can test our analytical prowess, our exactness, and our accuracy.

Nations or peoples who cannot express themselves in black or white, and who always have to fall back to grey matter, simply have not developed into mature nations.

Invasion of another nation that is not a threat is wrong. Occupation of that nation is wrong.

No grey about it.

That is analysis based upon a premise. The premise is "not a threat". But deductions are only as valid as the premise they derive from.

If you think Iraq was a threat to the US, then you cannot get to the place I got to.

So there most certainly is black and white, no question in my mind, but beware of the premise. That is the mother of all logic or the lack thereof.

Crimson flames tied through my ears
Rollin' high and mighty traps
Pounced with fire on flaming roads
Using ideas as my maps
"We'll meet on edges, soon," said I
Proud 'neath heated brow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

Half-wracked prejudice leaped forth
"Rip down all hate," I screamed
Lies that life is black and white
Spoke from my skull. I dreamed
Romantic facts of musketeers
Foundationed deep, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

Girls' faces formed the forward path
From phony jealousy
To memorizing politics
Of ancient history
Flung down by corpse evangelists
Unthought of, though, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

A self-ordained professor's tongue
Too serious to fool
Spouted out that liberty
Is just equality in school
"Equality," I spoke the word
As if a wedding vow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

In a soldier's stance, I aimed my hand
At the mongrel dogs who teach
Fearing not that I'd become my enemy
In the instant that I preach
My pathway led by confusion boats
Mutiny from stern to bow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats
Too noble to neglect
Deceived me into thinking
I had something to protect
Good and bad, I define these terms
Quite clear, no doubt, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

My Back Pages by Bob Dylan

Copyright © 1964; renewed 1992 Special Rider Music

Written transcript of,..

President Dwight D. Eisenhower's

Fare well address,.. warning of an out of control

Military Industrial Complex.

The Republican Party has gone extreme right wing,.. makes one yearn for the Republicans of yesterday,... less hyper capitalism,.. corruption,.. and greed. More compassionate to the welfare and directions of mankind.

Eisenhower speech transcript

If you care to,.... it makes it easier to review,..
prophetic words from an ex-military man,...
General Dwight D. Eisenhower.

(DREDD - good links and ideas today,.. ponderings,.. food for thought.)

Happy Memorial Day to one and all !

Old Turk #23

Your Eisenhower link was good. I looked it over. Things have not changed.

The military of today is the same as the one of Eisenhower's day, and is ever after bigger, faster, and more deadly weaponry, even at this moment (link here).

Thanks to Joan & Robert for agreeing that Memorial Day should be non-partisan. However, in my opinion putting aside partisan politics means being non-political as well as non-partisan. This should be a day solely to remember our nation's honored war dead. This should not be a day for political bickering.

The issues of today's war bring out your passionate feelings and that is certainly understandable.

Joan, I don't know how one can think that saluting our veterans is letting our millitary buddies die. Memorial Day is for honoring our fallen heros, not for politics. Yes, our vets fought for our freedom and our right to free speech. In no way do I disagree with that. I only hoped that those here could at the very least stop political bickering for one day, this very honored and special day for our veterans.

But apparently that was too much to hope for from those who put political hatred ahead of honoring our veterans.

Joan, I'm wearing one of my many US flag shirts. This one also has images of the Constitution on it. I wear these shirts to work and elsewhere. I think flying the flag has nothing to do with which political party is in power. It has to do with respect for country and what it stands for. I flew my flags during the previous Administration also. I hope you can re-consider being political on this day. Your late husband deserves our respect for his service in peacetime or wartime. My active service was during peacetime and my reserve service was during Desert Shield/Storm. He, like you, might not like some things that are happening in our country and neither do I. But I hope he would not want us to use politics on Memorial Day.

Robert, having a separate day for wars you think are unnecessary is silly. In 1941, some people though it was unnecessary to help our Allies against Germany because they didn't attack us, Japan did. In that way of thinking, " Decoration Day" would not have included the graves of Confederate soldiers (as some might have wanted). One-third of Colonists in 1776 wanted to stay with British rule. Those examples show that not everyone will agree on which wars are "unnecessary" and which wars are "necessary".

Jo-Joy, Thank you for your service helping our veterans. It's your job, but I can tell that it's what you care about as well.

Bluebear2, I'm glad you respect our veterans. You may disagree with the President's assessment, but our veterans fought for our right of free speech. He has the right to give his opinion and you have the right to voice your disagreement. I disagreed with most of what Pres.Clinton did, yet when he placed the wreath at the tomb on Memorial Day, I was respectful of that. I think any Presidental speech on Memorial Day by any President should be devoid of politics. Unfortunately, they don't seek my advice.

J.O.J., #11,

Question: What would compel you to attempt to insult me when all I did ask for honor and respect for our deceased veterans?

Answer: Because all you have is hate. You have no respect. You have no honor. You have no dignity.

You even want to make fun of kids who ride on those short buses. I never did. I drove a car to high school.

Remember in school kids were voted "Class President" and "Class Treasurer", etc.? You must have been voted "Class Jerk". If not, then perhaps you are just a Class-A jerk.

Have Fun!

#26 - Honor them as I, for you helped make them. . . . . and that's non-partisan . . .

Mike J: You drove your car to high school instead of riding the short bus? Well, Bravo to you!!!

How do you ask a Man to be the last to die for _ _ _ _ _ _ _"s trust Funds ? ? ?

mike j Sweet Dreams . . .

Liberals and conservatives join in honoring our troops. I guess Bush is neither...read on...

Bush Budget Increases Health Care Costs For 1 Million Veterans. For the fourth year in a row, the budget increases health care costs for 1 million veterans by imposing new fees for veterans, costing them more than $2.6 billion over five years. It would double the co-payment for prescription drugs from $8 to $15, and impose an enrollment fee of $250 a year for category 7 and 8 veterans, who make as little as $26,902 a year.

Administration Continues To Block Low Income Veterans From Enrolling In VA Health Care. On January 17, 2003, the Bush Administration stopped enrolling new Priority 8 veterans for VA medical care, and the President's budget continues this restrictive policy. This has prevented 1 million veterans, who make as little as $26,902 a year, from enrolling in VA health care.

Refuses To End The Disabled Veterans' Tax. The President's budget fails to repeal the Disabled Veterans Tax, which forces disabled military retirees to give up one dollar of their pension for every dollar of disability pay they receive. The budget continues to require nearly 400,000 military retirees with service-connected disabilities to continue to pay the Disabled Veterans' Tax.

Fails To End The Military Families' Tax. The Survivor Benefit Plan penalizes survivors, mostly widows, of those killed as a result of combat. These widows lose their survivor benefits if they receive Dependency and Indemnity Compensation benefits because their spouse has died of a service-connected injury. The President's budget forces these 53,000 spouses to continue to pay this unfair tax, even though these families have made the greatest sacrifice for our country.

Mental Health Services For Iraqi Veterans Fail To Meet Growing Need. An Army study shows that about one in six soldiers in Iraq report symptoms of major depression, serious anxiety or post-traumatic stress disorder, and some experts predict that the number eventually requiring mental health treatment could exceed 170,000. Up to one-third of Iraq war veterans are suffering from some degree of PTSD. [UPI, 1/27/06] And yet, the President's budget calls for only about 14 percent more for post-traumatic stress disorder and mental health services than last year.

Cuts Funding For Medical And Prosthetic Research. It cuts $13 million from medical and prosthetic research this year. This would set the research grant program back years, just as many of our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan are coming home with terrible injuries that require this expertise.

#25
It was a metaphor, mike. Not a very good one, I suppose.

I didn't say that 'saluting our veterans is letting our millitary buddies die'. Do you see that you've twisted my words there a bit?

My point was that, given the present situation, pretending for a time that politics is not involved is itself a lie and an insult to the dead, in my opinion. That's all I was trying to say there, in my convoluted way.
Understand please that I'm not saying YOU are pretending. I'm not accusing you of anything.

I say again that "politics & crime & lies & blood & grief & shame are all woven into this" and that breaks my heart, for the fallen and for their families.

I honestly don't get how that translates for you into our putting "political hatred ahead of honoring our veterans", but I acknowledge that it's your right to think so.

'Hate' is a strong word. I don't find alot of hate here. I find outrage, frustration, heartbreak, grief, anger, desperation.
It's interesting that the second definition I find for 'desperation' is "Recklessness arising from despair". That's a pretty apt description of the level of feeling often expressed here.

Memorial Day is the BEST day to bring up cuts to vets...I beg to differ, from everyone here... We should honor our vets by NOT CUTTING their benefits. And why not double their measly pay, too, while we're at it??? Double it instantly. Never any talk about doubling the pay of the troops. I'm for it.

Mike J said:

"I think any Presidental speech on Memorial Day by any President should be devoid of politics."

I will stand by that!

They should also be devoid of lies!

I have yet to hear any wrongwingers say that military pay should be doubled. They never say our troops aren't paid enough. I'm going on record, as being the only one here, to say our troops pay should be doubled. And finance it by lowering the tax cuts. We have plenty of money to give to Halliburton, but our cupboard's bare when it comes to paying the actual troops. We don't have enough money, then...right???

That's a damn good idea, BigDan. Repeal the tax cuts for the richest & for the oil companies, & give it to the vets.

Veterans Deserve Robust Stem Cell Research $ $ $ $ $ Is that Partisan or What ? ? ?

BIG DAN #34

I'm with you 100%! This administration expects so much of our military yet finds every way they can to short change them. Things like charging them for damaged armor, or health care cuts, also shortages and antiquated equipment, or otherwise ignoring the needs of our veterans!

"Imagine" gwbu$$h saying this,... Link

I have the utmost respect for our troops doing what they are ordered to do. I do not respect nor support gw sitting in WDC issuing orders that destroy peoples lives with a wave of his hand for the all mighty dollar and oil. Maybe some of you history buffs can remember, but it seems that in our past, FDR or another prez issued a statement or law that no one prospers or gains during a war. Maybe that would have limited Viet Nam and our current situation. Look at the companies that increased their profits during Viet Nam and now. That is no accident!!! It's staggering!!!

For Mike J.: I never used the word "unnecessary" in describing Vietnam and Iraq. That was your spin on what I posted.

There are vast differences between Vietnam/Iraq and every other war we've fought since Decoration Day came into being. I cited Vietnam and Iraq as wars of choice, fought not because the country we attacked was our enemy (it wasn't) but for some political or mercenary purpose. But both have been sold as noble causes ("freedom" is the buzzword common to Vietnam and Iraq), and soldiers have been invited to sign up on that basis. It's a case of bait-and-switch, in marketing terms.

In Vietnam, at least there was no secret about our primary goal, stopping the spread of Communism. As time has passed we've learned more about how the military-industrial complex had Vietnam in its sights all along. When Japan surrendered in World War II, our huge military arsenal then on Okinawa (in anticipation of an invasion of Japan that wasn't needed) was transferred, half to Korea and half to Vietnam (then French Indo-China). Somebody knew what was coming, 20 years before it came.

In Iraq, we've been given a half-dozen excuses: WMD, uranium from Niger, a link between Saddam and al Qaeda, a Muslim caliphate, creating a democracy in the Middle East, stopping terrorism. The real reason for the attack on Baghdad could be something else altogether...helping Israel, controlling oil, showing America's muscle, whatever.

The point is, Mike, Vietnam and Iraq were wars of choice. Neither was ever declared. They weren't wars, really, just invasions and occupations with a vague enemy. Should the soldiers who died in Vietnam and Iraq be lumped with those who died for noble causes in declared wars? Maybe that should be our distinction...have one Memorial Day for the soldiers of actual wars that were declared by Congress, another (called Repentance Day or Lest-We-Forget Day) for the dead of phony wars of choice.

You can call it politics if you like. I call it conscience.

How come rightwingers never say, "Our troops aren't being paid enough."??????? You NEVER hear them clamoring for more pay for the actual troops. You never see a column by George Will or Kristol or you never hear anyone in the Bush administration, saying, "We need to double the troops' pay and stop cutting their benefits."

Let's talk about how Republicans' are cutting vets' benefits, while Bush sheds crocodile tears for them on Memorial Day. Let's not pretend this isn't happening, by saying, "Let's not be partisan on Memorial Day."

I think talking about the Republicans cutting vets benefits and not paying the troops enough, should be discussed "non-partisan"... we should ALL be discussing this, on behalf of the troops.

Bush came to Washington basically clueless about how the federal government works. And he didn't really care, because he hates government itself; he's a far-right Reaganite in his belief that the government that governs least, governs best.

So it was perfectly natural for him to trust the old guard, Rumsfeld and Cheney in particular. Rumsfeld had this idea about a streamlined army, supplemented by mercenaries from companies like Blackwater. Essentially, a privatized military. To the extent recruits were needed, the approach was to lure them with marketing techniques, not with attractive pay, enough protection, and security. So Bush said, "It's all in your hands, guys."

This is what we get from people running a government, who don't trust government itself. Kind of like hiring a football coach who hates football, and expecting him to win the Super Bowl with poor coaching, low salaries, and bad uniforms.

Mike J #25

Was decorated war hero Murtha, a strong hawk until recently, political when he mentioned this story?

It is the story of a mother who is worried about her soldier son and the life in front of him ... after his experience in Iraq. He is under serious mental treatment. Those who sent him are not doing enough she says.

His best friend was killed by an IED, which he endured without snapping. However some of his comrades began to massacre those they were saving. They shot people in cold blood as they prayed. Women and children.

As the young man carried the body of a little girl out of her home, together with family members, her brains fell upon his boots.

He is back now listening to President Bush explain why he experienced what he did. Somehow he and his mother can't make it all fit. Sanity for him is a life and death struggle now. For the rest of his life when he hears the words "liberty", "freedom", "democracy", and "victory", there is a strong chance he will grasp his head and struggle to maintain sanity.

That is what the world around us is doing too ... like they used to do when Krushchev talked about those things. It just does not ring true to those who are not in a self induced and self maintained trance.

When I see the flag wave I want it to mean all good things human, to stand for what is good about nations. Not torture, not endless imprisonment, not lies, not invasion of little oil rich countries, nor occupation by might.

That is not about politics, a word you politically use to pigeon hole reality into a place where you do not have to deal with it. Denial is what it is.

What I am talking about every day, including war worship day, is the practice of being a responsible human being.

When are we going to memorialize that?

This is the first full time Adult Day Care presidencY . . .

RLM said, "I cited Vietnam and Iraq as wars of choice, fought not because the country we attacked was our enemy (it wasn't) but for some political or mercenary purpose."

Yes, concentrated capital and corporate marketing merging with manifest destiny pretty much explains the last 50 years. (Many, if not most, of the designers of the Vietnam and Iraq political strategies were corporate executives.)

I wonder what the world would have been like if the U.S. had taken Ho Chi Minh under its wing as he asked --- the man who often carried a copy of our Declaration of Independence with him and originally took it for granted (naively, of course) that the U.S. would support his cause of national independence.

We took the violent road to being a "National Security state" with the very conscious perception that the public could be manipulated. (It is clear to anyone who reads about its origins.) It is the great tragedy of modern history considering the potential of a "Constitutional" state.

Dredd re: #21 - With all due respect, you and I are talking about two different things.

I agree - the invasion of Iraq was absolutely wrong. I said that before it started, when I was called a traitor by many and accused of not supporting the troops because I did not support George W Bush's decision. I still say that now, when the list of dead is growing day by day and there is no end in sight.

I had too much time to think yesterday.

My thoughts, on a day of remembrance, were with a young man I used to babysit, a blue-eyed little boy who used to do puzzles and sing songs with me, who used to fall asleep with his head in my lap. He is now grown into a man with a child of his own..and not so long ago, he came home from Iraq. I talked to his father while he was gone, listened to the worry in his voice..then saw him again after his son got back, and I watched the lines in his face deepen as he talked about he had come home and immediately gone into seclusion, and was having a very hard time dealing with everything he had experienced.

And then later I ran into him again, and I stood there in shock as he told me that, beyond my comprehension, the young man has decided to work as a recruiter. I didn't know what to say. I think he read it on my face. I changed the subject.

The boy's father, a former Vietnam vet, has been my friend for over 20 years, but I don't know what to say to him now..so I have let a silence and distance grow between us. I'm afraid that, because of the way I feel about this war, I have not been a very good friend..it's my fault...but I don't know how to close the gulf between us now.

I'm not sure we will ever be able to recover the friendship.

There are so many relationships going through that right now, so many military family members I meet at peace rallies, many of whom have served in the military themselves, who are in absolute agony over this war, who are angry and frustrated beyond belief. And the best we can do for them is to let them know that even though we hate this war, and despise the men who lied about the reasons for starting it, and even though their government does not, we DO respect and support our troops - and we will do everything we can to help bring them home as quickly as possible, and to take care of them once they are back home.

Once upon a time I used to see things more clearly..it was either black or white - very little gray back then.

But I was so much older then - I'm younger than that now.

Judge of Judges re: #22 - Oddly enough, I was singing that song yesterday morning while working in my garden. It seems appropriate. I'd forgotten many of the words, thanks for posting them.

Dredd #43,
Look, I asked for a non-political day. That in itself should be understood even by you. But, if I read your post right, you think that my asking for a non-political day is in itself being political? Scheez. I think that YOU need to seek mental help instead of pointing to those soldiers who do. Asking for a non-political day is just that. And it was too much to ask of you. Too bad for you.

Many soldiers needed counseling after WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War, and now this one. It's no suprise that soldiers from all walks of life will see things that they have never experienced before and will not all have the same type of reactions to it. There were friendly fire incidents in previous wars. Don't you think that those who did the shooting were tramatized? There were accidents in all wars. There were also crimes, wrongful killing, in all wars. This current war is no different in those areas.

I tried as hard as I could to not be political yesterday, during Memorial day, and I asked you all to do the same. But you could not. And that's too bad.

But now it's the next day and I'll answer your polltical question. ANY politician making political statements on Memorial Day is, in my humble opinion, is using the day's special significance for political gain. That includes Pres.Bush and Rep.Murtha and any other politician. Do you understand that?

You claim that Pres.Bush is wrong, wrong, wrong, and so you have all the answers and morality. Yet, you can't act better than what you think he is doing? If he can't put politics aside on Memorial Day and you say that you are better than him, then how come you could not refrain from doing what he did?

Perhaps you are more like him than you care to admit. Perhaps you can't even admit that to yourself.

Have a nice day!

It's impossible not to be political. You're probably on the wrong website, Mike.

Mike J. opportunistically (and yes, politically) said...

But apparently that was too much to hope for from those who put political hatred ahead of honoring our veterans.

I understand why you would want to avoid politics on Memorial Day, Mike J. However, I'll stand with the Iraq and Afghanistan veterans, like Paul Reickhoff who believes Memorial Day is a perfect time to remind people of the deficiencies of this Adminstration and their lack of support for the troops.

All in hopes that next year's Memorial Day will find us honoring just a few less (a few thousand less?) dead Veterans.

Support the troops, do you? Then take every goddamn opportunity possible to keep them from dying unnecessarily.

Until you speak up in that regard, you are playing politics at every turn. And our troops are the ones paying the price.

Mike J #47

You asked for something without defining it. Like it has universal meaning or the like.

Somehow I feel that no matter what I said or did not say, to you it would be "political".

So now is your opportunity to define what is "political" and what is not.

Is all politics bad as your missive sounds, or is politics good?

Or is this a "never on Sunday" type of morality that drives you deep into mystery?

Define it.

Brad,

Our troops signed the dotted line, just like I did.
Our troops knew the risks associated with being in the military, just like I did.
Our troops of today VOLUNTEERED to serve in the military, just like I did.

Opportunistically? Politically? Asking for a non-political day for our honored veterans who paid the ultimate price is being political? At every turn?

Scheez.....

Well, if you think that about me, then my statement that you quoted stands firm. I see political hatred on your website every day I visit. If you truly understand that my motivation is to put honoring our veterans ahead of political bickering on Memorial Day, then you should understand that what I said is true.

I wore the uniform of my country for 10 years. Did you? Others here did. I disagree with them too. The veterans who speak out politically against this war on Memorial Day are too wrapped up in their own discontent to stop that arguing on that one special day, even for the sake of the memories of dead veterans of all wars, not just Iraq and Afganistan. Memorial Day is for all veterans of all wars.

Yes, I hope that by next year's Memorial Day that the US involvement in Iraq and Afganistan will be much less. Just an hour or so ago I saw on the CNN Headline news (that they insist on keeping on in the fitness center) that in Afganistan, US troop levels are to be going down and NATO troop levels are to be increasing. So that's a start.

I'll tell you who is paying the price. Our country is by our divided political arguing. You think this website of yours is only read by people inside the USA? Of course you don't. Our country's enemies read our websites and see our arguing. Why do you think Osama's statements sound similar to the Democrat talking points? It's because he gets the reports of those observing our country's split in our people. They see us fighting with ourselves as much as we are supposed to be fighting our enemy. They are then encouraged by that to do more terrorism. If we were united "against all enemies, foreign and domestic", then our country's resolve would defeat them easily. We have the power, both in our great military and in our will. But we choose not to use that will power and be united in our cause of freedom from terrorism. And that's too bad.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm NOT saying that you and the others are un-patriotic. I'm sure that you love this country as much as I do. What I AM saying is that I wish that we could get on the same page and fight the terrorists with resolve. I wish that all Americans would be united in this cause.

I will write my Congressman to ask for increased funding in VA hospitals, as Jo-Joy asked. I'll ask ask him to pressure the DoD for more training of the Iraq army so that our troops can come home. But until that happens, our troops are needed there just like they were needed in Germany after WWII. Yes, the situation is different, but they are still needed. It took years for Germany and Japan to be able to govern themselves.

#51 mike j . . . "I wore the uniform of my country for 10 years." . . . . . What Uniform ?

* The Boy Scouts *

* The Cub Scouts *

* The Girl Scouts *

* Or The Brownies *

.

Dredd, #50

I should not have to define it (even though I did). It should be plainly understood. You are also wrong to assume that anything you write would be viewed as political by me. If you wrote to honor the veterans on Memorial Day, then that would be exactly what I asked for.

Simple enough.... but too much for you.

Also, I should not be picky, but what the heck, you and others are picky with me.

Generals who were President included George Washington, Andrew Jackson, Zachary Taylor, Ulysses Grant, & Rutherford Hayes.

Hey joj,
the only uniform you wore is the uniform of jerks. you fit that uniform well. very well indeed.

I'm just saw Paul Rieckhoff on MSNBC a few minutes ago. He is not blaming the troops involved in the incident without waiting for the investigation. He just said that he has the greatest respect for the Uniform Code of Military Justice and that we all need to wait for the investigation before we go blaming the troops involved. He said that he fully understands the passion when your fellow troops in your unit are attacked and they want to hit back hard, because he was in those situations before. When asked about Rep.Murtha's comments, he said that he has great respect for Rep.Murtha and his service, but that he ALSO needs to wait for the investigation to be concluded. The segment's topic was a discussion on the MSM and if they have already judged the troops involved as guilty. Paul was in agreement on that also.

Thank God for President Eisenhower and his farewell speech. Ronald Reagan proved him right, but it still gets more relevant every day.

Now THAT was a veteran this country can be proud of!

The study of how "holy" a particular war is happens to be an interesting one.

In war lore WW II tends to be seen as the most holy war we have been involved in.

I had always heard that, but never questioned it, until I saw the documentary movie "Fog of War".

It was basically the repentance of Robert McNamara (once sec. of "defense") and his confession to being a "war criminal" (his words) and his naming of others in the Pentagon who he says were also war criminals.

For what they did in WW II, the most holy war.

He said they (including himself) murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent civilian Japanese people based on vengence.

These were the ones still active in the Pentagon when Operation Northwoods was contrived.

Its a jihad thingy baby ...

It is the VETERAN, not the preacher, who has given us freedom of religion.

It is the VETERAN, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the VETERAN, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech.

It is the VETERAN, not the campus organizer, who has given us freedom to assemble.

It is the VETERAN, not the lawyer, who has given us the right to a fair trial.

It is the VETERAN, not the politician, Who has given us the right to vote.

It is the VETERAN, who salutes the Flag,

It is the VETERAN, who serves under the Flag.

IT IS THE VETERAN WHO DESERVES OUR UTMOST RESPECT AND HONOR.

Do we have that to give to our nation's VETERANS?

Nurse: Get the Haldol . . . . . STATim . . .

Dredd,

Get off it! You sound like a pacifist, yes or no? You also can't admit when you were wrong (or forgetful) as I proved you to be here.

One of my favorite Computer Science instructors at my university was a man who served in WWII Europe. His first name was Arthur. I didn't even know that about his service until I had known him for several semesters. He was always chipper and happy for his senior age of 78 at the time. He was always ready to help his students and spent extra time with those who needed it. I helped fellow students too and would see him in the computer lab a lot more than other instructors.

What made me think of him just now was your mention of Robert McNamara. The only time I ever, ever saw Arthur angry was after Robert McNamara's book came out and he had a copy. I went to his office and saw him with an angry look so I asked him what was wrong. He told me that McNamara's book just dumped on all WWII veterans like himself. I have not read that book, but my instructor having served much and seen much in WWII, was of the opinion that McNamara's book was wrong, wrong, wrong.

Arthur served as a Lt. and was involved in the huge Battle of Monte Cassino, where the German-occupied Monastery had to be bombed. Later he was in charge of a POW camp keeping German prisoners. Years later he toured all parts of the world, including Germany and made friends there with whom had been his enemy many years before.

Arthur just passed away on Dec.29th last year at the age of 88. I attended his memorial service and told his son and daughters how much he meant to myself and other students. Many students and former instructors were there also.

Randy/Dredd, we don't characterized WWII as "holy", but it certainly was one of the most "important" wars that there ever have been. Did you know that over 670,000 American soldiers are buried in France at 11 US cemeteries from WWI and WWII? Yet the French today have a great distain for the US and have for a long time. Our country helped France in their dire times of need. Yet they could not help us when we needed help. Quite pathetic, in my opinion.

The French did not hesitate for a second to help us in the "just" war in Afghanistan. The "unjust war",..
the oil baron war of Iraq,... the French wanted no part of that frivolous military excursion.

We had no right to intercede in that country,.. not
that Saddam was a saint by any means,.. but it was
a sovereign nation,.. internal mechanisms should have remedied the Saddam dilemma,.. not our
quasi-oil baron mercenary military soldiers.

Terrorism was a concern,.. these military adventures have acerbated the problem 25 fold.

The Iraqi War,.. a flawed policy,.. only a Fascist could defend to the end. The rabid defenders of this war,.. why do they not pick up a rifle and engage the "enemy" on the battlefield,.. or just
shut the fuck up !

Mike J: You forgot to add to your diatrabe, "It is the veteran, that the Bush Administration is taking advantage of."

It is the Bush administration, who is leaving soldiers out to dry, taking the rap for top-down orders to torture and murder. The Bush regime will let these soldiers get the death penalty. Bush is against the troops.

In order to follow the American pattern the Germans have to cellebrate Hitlers birthday and honor the SA/SS.

Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan to name a few conflicts have already more victims than any other war throughout history.

Shameful attitudes and now feeling for their wrong doing America is guilty on all counts: crimes against humanity, murder and torture.
A phony nation needs phony memorial days and move on and don't waste any of your valueable "memory" on the "collateral damage (civilians killed by the coward bastards called U.S. forcesI.

Heil Hitler!

Keep waving your flag, Mike. It makes you right about everything. You're right, because you posted a flag.

PEACE ON EARTH

GOOD WILL TOWARD ALL

Learn Peace, NOT War

Some are evangelists for the god of war, and others are evangelists for PEACE.

The doctrines and precepts of the evangelists of war are death, destruction, invasion, propaganda, killing, maiming, fear, insanity, depravity, murder, massacre, hatred, and torture.

The doctrines and precepts of the evangelists of peace are love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

PEACE OUT !!

"Sir,.. No Sir" - Not Your Soldier,..

A documentary about the military and Iraqi War.

Video Link

I've to say how much I've enjoyed to read all your comments of Memorial Day, a respect for it as I do for our day in Finland.
But it was a little odd that discussion went so political.

So, why I writing here is to thank Brad a great blog without forgetting another writers and readers.

Even Mike who gave me a little shock at comment #51 after very good point of views.
"Our country's enemies read our websites and see our arguing"
It makes me feel unsure what is the situation in there if you really see enemies around you and cannot discuss in public, then where is freedom of speech and press.

And
"If we were united "against all enemies, foreign and domestic", then our country's resolve would defeat them easily"
It's sound familiar like "if you are not with us you are againts us".

ps:also wore the uniform of my country and served in middle-east

...Guenter Monkowski ,

Ok, then whenever other countries around the world need help, whenever their is a disaster or one country is attacked by another, they cry "US, Help us USA", and we help. WE send our sons and daughters to fight and die to defend freedom.

You, sir, are an idiot.

Therefore, if I were in charge, I would say, "NO!" to those cries of help from countries who previously condem our actions. Cut off all foreign aid now!

Timx #68,
You find it odd that the discussions on US Memorial Day was so political, yet you attack my comments. TAKE ANOTHER LOOK!

I was the one and only person on this discussion asking that Memorial Day be non-political. I was the only person asking that no political comments be made on Memorial Day. Only some agreeded, and yet those could not refrain themselves.

Finland has an interesting history as the only country who fought for and against Nazi Germany under the same leadership during WWII. Finland received arms, oil, and food from Nazi Germany during your Continuation War 1941-1944. Norway was captured after a two month struggle, but the captials of Finland, Russia, and England were not captured by the Germans. All other countries that the Germans attacked had their captials captured.

Wikipedia: History of Finland during WWII

So Finland stood on their own when they went back to being against Nazi Germany and won. But other countries like France, Poland, Denmark, were conquered by Nazi Germany and would still be today if it were not for the involvement of the USA.

Face it, the World would be a much different place if the USA had not saved the world from Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

I'm the one who wants peace from today's terrorism. WE are not going to get it by talking nice to them. The only power they respect is the power of the gun. So I believe that peace can be achieve through superior firepower! Also, "Gun control", means being able to hit your target.

I asked for non-political respect on Memorial Day. WE didn't get it thanks to people full of hate.

It's that hate that drives those here too far from reason.... and respect.

Enjoy your freedom! Thank a US veteran!

How wonderful of Mike J to distribute freedoms all around the world.

How very nice.

Wonder what it was like before the US existed 200 years ago.

No freedom or democracy anywhere ... wow bet all those nations existing for thousands of years before that just could not wait til Mike J came along and granted freedom for everyone.

Yeah Mike J ... bringer of freedom ... yeah ...

Hey Randy Dredd,
You are still an idiot. You can make fun of my comments all you want, but you know that I'm right. All those countries that were attacked by Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan would still be captives if the USA had not been involved and helped win WWII for the Allies.

That is a plain cold hard FACT.

A French Poem
> >
> > Eleven thousand soldiers
> > lay beneath the dirt and stone,
> > all buried on a distant land
> > so far away from home.
> >
> > For just a strip of dismal beach
> > they paid a hero's price,
> > to save a foreign nation
> > They all made the sacrifice.
> >
> > And now the shores of Normandy
> > Are lined with blocks of white:
> > Americans who didn't turn
> > from someone else's plight.
> >
> > Eleven thousand reasons
> > for the French to take our side,
> > but in the moment of our need,
> > they chose to run and hide.
> >
> > Chirac said every war means loss,
> > perhaps for France that's true,
> > for they've lost every battle
> > since the days of Waterloo.
> >
> > Without a soldier worth a damn
> > to be found within the region,
> > the French became the only land
> > to need a Foreign Legion.
> >
> > You French all say we're arrogant.
> > Well hell, we've earned the right--
> > We saved your sorry nation
> > when you lacked the guts to fight.
> >
> > But now you've made a big mistake,
> > and one that you'll regret;
> > you took sides with our enemies,
> > and that we won't forget.
> >
> > It wasn't just our citizens
> > you spit on when you turned,
> > but every one of yours
> > who fell the day the towers burned.
> >
> > You spit upon our soldiers,
> > on our pilots and Marines,
> > and now you'll get a little sense
> > of just what payback means.
> >
> > So keep your Paris fashions
> > and your wine and your champagne,
> > and find some other market
> > that will buy your airplanes.
> >
> > And try to find somebody else
> > to wear your French cologne,
> > for you're about to find out
> > what it means to stand alone.
> >
> > You see, you need us far more
> > than we ever needed you.
> > America has better friends
> > who know how to be true.
> >
> > I'd rather stand with warriors
> > who have the will and might,
> > than huddle in the dark
> > with those whose only flag is white.
> >
> > I'll take the Brits, the Aussies,
> > the Israelis and the rest,
> > for when it comes to valor
> > we have seen that they're the best.
> >
> > We'll count on one another
> > as we face a moment dire,
> > while you sit on the sideline
> > with a sign, "friendship for hire."
> >
> > We'll win this war without you
> > and we'll total up the cost,
> > and take it from your foreign aid,
> > and then you'll feel the loss.
> >
> > And when your nation starts to fall,
> > well Frenchie, you can spare us,
> > just call the Germans for a hand,
> > they know the way to Paris.