Mind snap.

When troops are surrounded by entities that are fighting each other, like a domestic dispute, and get in the middle of it, fire comes from both sides.

Eventually they figure no one is on their side and they loose it.

Surrounded by killing 24/7 will rub off and even the most decent will eventually loose their mind.

And live the rest of their life in regret and doing damage to their families and friends.

Ain't the war of The Dick, The Rummy, and the Bush grand?

Trigger happiness, its not just for drunks, thugs, and low lifes any more.

For Dredd: I think you've given these guys the benefit of the doubt. "Mind snap" sounds to me like a temporary-insanity defense...not that you meant it that way.

The report I heard said the Marines also blew up the house after killing everybody. Sounds to me like an effort to destroy evidence. Or maybe just random destructiveness on the part of the semper fi crowd. "From the halls of Montezuma..." yada yada yada.

HCOCDR: Any comments?

Just picture * and company Sitting in the Dock of The Hague [whistling and strumming sounds accompanying]. Yes, each soldier is responsible for their own behavior, but it cannot be disputed that it is the administration who should go down for war crimes.

Here is a good article by Paul Craig Roberts telling it like it is

Oh and Dan, HOKEYDR won't say anything now, he'll wait for another "purple finger" opportunity before he lands one

I don't know if I buy "mind snap" either.. 12 guys don't just "snap" together.. they got fed up and decided to get some revenge for their blown up friend.

What people don't get is, Marines (more so than any other branch) are BRAIN-WASHED -heavily- to become "killing machines". When you turn on that beast and leave it running for any length of time, the mind-set becomes "I am a MARINE! I am a KILLING MACHINE! Don't fuck with me or mine or the Corps, you'll DIE like the rest!". Doesn't take much for someone like that to see that since 70% or MORE of the Iraqi population wants us OUT that "they are all guilty" to some degree.. and I'd guess there were Iraqis cheering when that Marine got blown up, and that's what set them off.. not "mind snap", but the feeling that if you support the death of a Marine, you ARE the enemy, regardless of if you're wearing a uniform or not.

War is not pretty.. illegally invading a country and leaving it in ruins is worse.. and we're seeing the long term effects of prolonged exposure to stress and violence and fear.

Thank you Mr. Bush. You have made America into a perceived henious civilization, all for NO GOOD REASON (other than more oil for your family, and getting back at Saddam for trying to kill your ignorant and meddeling father). And now you have drug the Marine Corps full on into your war crimes.

Savantster #7

You said "12 guys don't just 'snap' together" which assumes the event takes 12 guys snapping together.

It doesn't. Not even close. It only takes one.

One thing I have learned from reading war crimes tribunal transcripts is that "I was following orders" is the general response to charges.

So it only takes one mind snap, the commander's, to generate all kinds of holocaust scenarios. This is a mini holocaust, but that does not change the dynamics.

Almost every American soldier charged with torture, murder, or other war crimes in the Iraq invasion and occupation has raised the "I was following orders" defense.

So, your analysis is wanting, because it assumes I said that they must all snap at once.

While it is not impossible for them all to snap at once, it is far more likely that the commander snapped and ordered the carnage.

The rest obeyed his/her orders. Mob psychology, group think, its a Rummy thang.

RLM #2

You said "I think you've given these guys the benefit of the doubt".

I do not know how you figure that, but I will admit to having an ethos which affords the accused the presumption of innocence until proven otherwise.

But as I pointed out to Savantster in my post #8, it only takes one mind snap to bring about what happened.

If the commander lost it, under military law, the insanity defense is available (link here).

But it would be unusual for all 12 to plead that defense, and that they all had mind snap at the same time.

My guess is that the commander would have that available, but the rest would use the "we were following orders" defense.

Remember that putting up a defense is not the same thing as winning the case.

For one thing, as has been stated, the military must train soldiers to overcome their natural instincts not to kill people, in order to function effectively in a war zone.
But it's a fine line to walk between being psyched to do your job (in which there are constraints on who you are to kill) & just becoming a killer.
Our troops can be killed at any moment, day & noc, with no safe areas. It was not like that, for the most part, in WWI & WWII, & even Viet Nam. There is way more pressure & constant danger--which MUST work on their attitudes & emotions.
I don't know how the military keeps that fine line intact.
Plus, I must say, I feel it would be difficult even for me, imagining myself as a combat soldier in Iraq--not to want to just kill 'em, all of 'em, all the time.

Imagine risking your life in a war over nothing-- that we never should have starated in the first place. That knowledge, plus the profound betrayal it belies by your own country, who is risking your life over nothing, has got to be demoralizing & a source of anger.
When you add into this witch's brew the fact that when a soldier comes upon a family, with women & children--he knows the odds are that this woman's husband, brother, son or nephew is killing his American friends & trying to kill him (because 90% of the insurgents are the Iraqis themselves who are trying to get us out of their country)--while she, the wife & family, stand there & act innocent--well, I can see why they behave badly.
I'm not saying it's right, or that the soldiers should not be prosectuted--I'm just saying the conditions are so bad, it takes a saint not to be a war criminal over there.
Plus, if they ask for psychological help, they probably are ignored, since there is a shortage of troops.
I understand the suicide rate is high. No wonder. Coming to grips with the entire hell the troops are in--while having to pretend you're gung ho & positive like the military have to do--is too much for most people.

I am so mad at Pres. Boob!
Our young men are the bravest, most loyal anyone, anywhere could ever hope to have!
They deserve better than this--at the very minimum, they deserve not to be sent in harm's way unless it is absolutely necessary!
My heart goes out to them!
I pray every night for each one, out there going threw every kind of hell for duty & honor, without proper equipment, & because a boob, who isn't good enough to lick the mud off their boots, much less be Commander in Chief-- sent them there!
God damn that SOB!
He is single-handedly ruining our military--why would any sane man want to join a group that risks their life over nothing, with poor equipment--only to come home & find out the SOB cut their benefits?
I hope there is justice in this world & the Boob gets what he deserves.

"Our young men are the bravest, most loyal anyone, anywhere could ever hope to have!
They deserve better than this--at the very minimum, they deserve not to be sent in harm's way unless it is absolutely necessary!
My heart goes out to them!
I pray every night for each one, out there going threw every kind of hell for duty & honor, without proper equipment..."

As a non-american I was a little puzzled reading the post above. A comment to a story were 15 iraqis were killed is morphed into sympathy to occupyping army.

I understand you might have relatives involved in the war. Well, maybe it's just me.

#11

I explained my opinion--that it would take a saint NOT to be a war criminal over there because conditions are so uniquely difficult for our troops, unlike other wars in the past--constant danger & major stress with no safe areas, added to no purpose in being there anyway, except fulfilling your duty to fight when your government tells you to--no matter how wrong they are.
In guerrilla, underground warfare---unlike the model of more traditional wars---women & children are not spared the violence that their male family members wreak on the sly against the enemy, as they slip in & out the back door to kill them, while the family feigns innocence at the front door, of aiding & abetting such activities.
It's been reported that 90% of the insurgency is NOT from across the border, (as Bush claims) but it's the Iraqis, themselves, who are killing our troops because they want us to leave.
I understand why they want us to leave, but their method seems to have backfired.

The continuing violence is just giving Bush more reason to stay, not scaring us away.
If they want us out, they need to try & cooperate, if their clerics will let them, so Bush has no reason to stay.
At the very least, most of the killing would stop, which would be a blessing.
The Iraqis could stop MOST of the violence overnight--just by refusing to continue to kill.

I also said that does not mean what our troops did was right or that they should not be prosecuted.
It's just a bad situation for all.

I read a telling remark the other day, made by a top Islamic cleric called Nasri, at one of the largest Shiite places of worship.
He was speaking about the outcome of a trial they were having against a man guilty of converting to Christianity. This is punishable by death under their laws.
Condy Rice asked that the man's life be spared since it is offensive to us to kill a man over his choice of religion--& the possibility of just letting this man leave the country instead of killing him came up.

Nasri said, "If he is allowed to live in the West, THEN OTHERS WILL CLAIM TO BE CHRISTIAN SO THEY CAN TOO." We must set an example. He must be hanged."

How telling of the true state of things is THAT slip!?

Nasri is acknowledging that, of course, everybody wants the hell out of here, damn their "religion" or not--so we gotta use death to stop em!

MASTERS OF WAR

Come you masters of war
You that build all the guns
You that build the death planes
You that build the big bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks

You that never done nothin'
But build to destroy
You play with my world
Like it's your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly

Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain

You fasten the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you set back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion
As young people's blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud

You've thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain't worth the blood
That runs in your veins

How much do I know
To talk out of turn
You might say that I'm young
You might say I'm unlearned
But there's one thing I know
Though I'm younger than you
Even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do

Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul

And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand o'er your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead

(link here).

Yes, Dredd # 13

I felt that poem...

Your reference to Jesus--that he wouldn't forgive what the war mongers do--reminded me of something that's been bothering me for a while:

The Pope came out against the Iraq war a long time ago--he said it was immoral & asked Pres Bush to end it. Of course, we know the Pope is against abortion also.

Well, why is it that we have not seen nor heard of ANY demonstration against the war from ANY Catholic Church?

I mean, they demonstrate in front of abortion clinics & along the roadside, holding hands & signs, against abortion frequently.

All the Churches have committees for social action, called the "Social Concerns Committee".

How can these committees, the "faithful" & the priests & nuns, justify ignoring the horrendous violence of thousands being killed in Iraq that the Pope has spoken out about several times, yet claim to be "pro-life"?
They spend time protesting abortion, but not a minute to protest an immoral war waged by their pro-life President.

It's hypocrisy. It's shameful. It's wrong.

I called a local priest to ask him if his congregation would join us in a peace rally in his town.

He said he would wait until his congregation's own social concerns committee suggested it.

HE is their leader. The Buck stops with HIM.

What a cop out.

What phony SOBs they are.

Has anyone heard of a Catholic Church having a war protest?

Why are you guys always so quick to condem U.S. troops and believe statements from people who have every reason to lie?

What are you, un-American and un-Patriotic?

How about letting the investigation play out instead of jumping on the Murtha (traitor ex-Marine) bandwagon?

Give it a couple of weeks and the truth will be released.

P.S. What about that slime Jessie MacBeth? He really makes all you lefties look credible.

Why are you guys always so quick to condem U.S. troops and believe statements from people who have every reason to lie?

What are you, un-American and un-Patriotic?

How about letting the investigation play out instead of jumping on the Murtha (traitor ex-Marine) bandwagon?

Give it a couple of weeks and the truth will be released.

P.S. What about that slime Jessie MacBeth? He really makes all you lefties look credible.

Why are you guys always so quick to condem U.S. troops and believe statements from people who have every reason to lie?

What are you, un-American and un-Patriotic?

How about letting the investigation play out instead of jumping on the Murtha (traitor ex-Marine) bandwagon?

Give it a couple of weeks and the truth will be released.

P.S. What about that slime Jessie MacBeth? He really makes all you lefties look credible.

Note to "TRUE AMERICAN."

We are occupying a country that has no need to be occupied right now. Let's reverse the roles - how would YOU like it if a foreign nation occupied us and a hit squad was sent in to murder families in cold blood despite having no connection to a war fatality?

Remember, QUESTIONING is patriotic. DISSENT is patriotic. Blindly accepting what our leaders tell us does more of a disservice to this country than daring to question authority.

It’s Memorial Day and I just finished reading the umpteenth account of the killings in Haditha.

I’m a Vietnam Veteran and I’m angry. I’m angry at the Marines who did the killing. If I know anything about war, it is that incidents like this are almost always the result of a breakdown in unit moral and discipline.

The officers and senior NCOs up and down the chain of command share as much, if not more responsibility than the poor bastards who were pulling the triggers.

While we should hold the men who pulled the triggers responsible we need to also hold the entire chain of command responsible for allowing this tragedy to happen. I don’t know what the whole story is – was it one mission too many in a 24/7 world of death and destruction? Was it a freaked-out cluster fuck? Who knows?

None of it justifies killing unarmed civilians. None of it justifies the clod blooded killing of men, women, and children.

My father, a minister, used to say that in war, when we use the weapons of the enemy against the enemy, we have become the enemy.

Haditha is a hell hole of insurgents....Shit happens in combat. My thoughts are with the marine that was killed in action that day. He was a good person, and american..one of us. Remember that! Haditha residents would cut your head off if they had a chance, just for being american, or christian...wake up morons.
SF brothers...

ps..do you now think haditha is less likely to assit insurgent assholes? He he..I think yes

Val, #20:

Excuse me, but I don't think three or five year old girls would "cut my head off if they had a chance."

This attack is indefensible. If you're a human being, you'll just accept that.

"Haditha is a hell hole of insurgents....Shit happens in combat"
Lets not forget who has turned it in to a hell hole for insurgets USA it self.
Do you ever think why would someone thousands of miles away who dosent even know you wanna cut your head off just for being an American or a Christian. Your answer pal exactly for the same reasons like Haditha. USA has to stop forcing its own brand of freedom on eveyone els when you commit attroticities such as wars for profits you are bound to be hated. You know how easily you said shit happens we are talking about peoples lives here Val people just like you who had a family and someone entered their home and destroyed it.
One day your home town can turn in to a same hell hole history repeats it self you are lucky you are not in that situation so be greatful and think about it. Imagine some soilders raiding your home grabbing your family and shooting them all in cold blood. Would you dimiss it then as well "shit Happens"