Sorry Brad, you know me, I just want em gone

Gone is fine by me as well. But while he's still there, and Diebold is still there and in the "elections business" I'd be happy to discuss the situation with him as far as what's going on.

Who knows what we all may learn in the bargain?

I was with you almost to the end there, Brad, my man!
NOPE! Sez this guy from Vermont. Chuck this vote
machine guy and all his inventory in the Potomac is
what I think. Vote with simple paper ballots and count them by hand with full winesses and real time
on-going "audits" and recounting. People should do
this sacred work, Brad. Not gizmos.

[Morrisseau is a Republican (!) candidate for Congress from Vermont] dmorso@netzero.net

Brad as a person that has led many pigs to slaughter you can believe me when I say just show them a little feed and they will follow you right into the slaughterhouse.
Do not watch the feed instead of where you are being led.

Who is this weenie? Suddenly a corporate climber has some input as to how our election process will work? Can this GET.. any more ridiculous?

That anyone takes seriously, corporations sticking their thieving mits into the election process shows how far we've been sucked into this privatization fairy tale. No more corporate scams.. which is what this guy is inevitably positioning for.

Brad

Do you really think this guy will take you up on your invitation? You're the best at bringing this whole thing to light and certainly more than fair with this olive branch to Swidarski but I'm with the rest. Get rid of these pieces of crap. They're atrocious and will NEVER work right. They don't WANT them to work right.

I don't think this is off-topic. I hope not.

To say I know very little about the intricate workings of our bruised & bleeding electoral process is an understatement.
I do know the Clint Curtis story, thanks to Brad & others who've done so much to try & bring the whole sordid mess to the light of day, and I've read alot of the election horror stories from various states, on this blog & elsewhere, and the problem seems truly, truly monolithic.

I went this afternoon to hear Mr. Curtis and Mark Crispin Miller speak in Fort Lauderdale. I was impressed with both of them, and I came away even further horrified but with just a tiny particle more of hope than when I went in.
There was also a showing of the video "Votergate" in which, among other things, Bev Harris sits down with Howard Dean & demonstrates how easy it is to flip the vote; and Jennifer Van Bergen (she wrote "The Twilight of Democracy: the Bush Plan for America") spoke briefly about the NSA spying program (well, the one we know about).

Mr. Miller was really compelling. The picture he paints of the current situation is dire indeed. Well, no surprise there. Anyone who frequents Bradblog knows how dire.
He covered alot of ground, but what he seemed to me to emphasize was that (as Brad has said many times) it IS up to us and it is not going to be easy. Or quick.
He talked about the need to keep spreading the word about the FACT of stolen elections to people who don't know, or don't want to know, and also the need for small, local efforts to join with others.
He made the point that black grassroots groups "totally get it", since black people do have a bit of experience with oppression, and that white activist groups would do well to join forces with them. I'm paraphrasing here but that was the gist.
I mean, I'm sure it's no great surprise to anyone that the Black Congressional Caucus is the most activist wing in Congress.

He mentioned a couple of things I don't recall hearing before that were disturbing.
One was a "report" supposedly dealing with the myriad electoral problems in Ohio--put out by Dean's people I believe--which downplayed the seriousness & severity of those problems & effectively served to distance the democratic party from John Conyers.
I'm not sure if I might have heard of this report & just not connected the dots.
The other was a conversation Miller had with John Kerry, during which Kerry readily admitted that he believed the '04 election had indeed been stolen. Soon after, Kerry denied the conversation with Miller had taken place.
I counted only 30 or so people at this event. A sorry turnout.

Gad, why did that emoticon pop up in there??

Brad, Brad, BRAD, stay away from CEO's! Corporatism and Democracy == oil and water. We have to keep corporations and their money far, far away from elections and politicians. And throw out the pseudo-legal concept of "corporate personhood", which was snuck into our judicial doctrine. And restore the "free press" described in the Constitution. These are the minimum requirements for restoring a democratic republic. The hour is late. Good luck to us all.

Well Brad,..

I just finished your extensive (common-tary),..

comment-ary,... very well spoken

and to the point.

Brad for PRES. - 2008

Democracy - is just around the next bend.

Joan, Thanks for going. Low turnout doesn't surprise me. I had only read about in that one blog. I wish this whole subject was getting more attention. Did Clint Curtis say how his campaign was going? I agree with you we are in deep shit. Talking to people doesn't seem to be helping in my neck of the woods(Republican stronghold). I had a client call me radical last week. Some people say I am Passionate. I don't know anymore, Except I am frustrated. The response that just slays me is "It doesn't affect me or my life". DUHHHHHHHHHHH! Do people have to be neck deep in shit before they wake up?

What the hell is - "CORPORATE PERSONHOOD",..

What the hell are you talking about ?

Please see : LINK

JOAN:

This is not a WalMart commercial,...

JOAN:

This is not a WalMart commercial,...

Funny,.. funny,... girl !

JOAN:

This is not a WalMart commercial,...

Funny,.. funny,... girl !

OOP'S

What the he l l

a lot of wasted ink

and paper ?

Sorry.

While we're waiting for Swid to call Brad (and not holding our breath...)

Here's the best way you can possibly pass the time: Organized, tangible actions you can take to fight back against Diebold's inappropriate "punishments" of Ion Sancho and Stephen Heller. Here is a letter from Stephen Heller's wife:

Subject: The Stephen Heller Legal Defense Fund

http://www.hellerlegaldefensefund.com

Hello everyone, this is Michele Gregory, Stephen Heller's wife. Once again, Stephen and I thank you for all of your help and support. Your encouragement and kind words have been invaluable to us in this very difficult and frightening time.

As you know, Stephen has been charged with some very serious crimes for allegedly blowing the whistle on Diebold Election Systems. He has pleaded innocent to all charges. He needed the very best legal defense, but criminal defense attorneys are very expensive. So far, starting in August of 2004, we have covered Stephen's legal bills with our personal savings and by taking a second mortgage on our house. Our savings are now gone, and our credit is strained.

And so, with the help of some friends, I have started the Stephen Heller Legal Defense Fund and corresponding website.

http://www.hellerlegaldefensefund.com

Please visit the site. It has details on Stephen's case, news, press articles, blog posts, and information about the defense fund, including detailed information on how it is run and how you can donate, should you wish to.

Whether or not you are able to donate, please pass the website around to everyone you know. Stephen's lawyer has said that public awareness of his situation will be beneficial to his defense.

Thank you all for all you have done, are doing, and will do. Stephen and I are in your debt; you have our gratitude.

With love,

Michele Gregory, proud and loving wife of Stephen Heller

* * * * *

Should you wish to donate with a check, please make the check out to "The Stephen Heller Legal Defense Fund" and mail it to:

The Stephen Heller Legal Defense Fund
c/o Michele D. Gregory, Fund Administrator
17216 Saticoy St., Box 234
Van Nuys, CA 91406-2103

The fund itself is a non-interest bearing, FDIC insured checking account opened on March 7, 2006 at the First Federal Bank of California, Encino branch. Stephen's name is not on the account and he does not have access to the money. Monies can only be used for payments to Stephen's attorneys, and the account has been set up after advice from attorneys and with full transparency.

Black Box Voting has committed $10,000 to the Stephen Heller Legal Defense Fund. I have spoken to his wife and to Stephen about this. I urge those who are in a position to do so to make the most generous contribution you can.

Stephen Heller was faced with the ethical dilemma from hell. What do you do when a presidential primary is just weeks away, and you are assigned a word processing assignment that has you looking at evidence that the secretary of state is being lied to by the voting machine company counting millions of votes? What do you do when those lies explode into thousands of disenfranchised voters? Nothing?

In times like these, the citizenry depends on honesty and courage like Stephen Heller has shown. If you want citizens of courage like Heller successfully threatened and ultimately silenced, do nothing. If you believe that he went to the front lines for YOUR rights, please give what you can.

Next

Give to Heller's fund first, because that is the most difficult thing to do, and the thing that may cause us to procrastinate.

Then, please join the important VoteTrustUSA.org initiative to fight for Ion Sancho. This involves simply clicking a link and sending an important letter to Florida officials.

Here is the Ion Sancho support link:

http://votetrustusa.org/supportsancho.html

* * * * *

Stand together and fight, folks, or let them pick us off one by one.

I suggest Mr. Swidarski consider selling Diebold's election systems to Dubai Ports, Inc. That company has just lost a big contract and will be looking to replace the lost revenue.

A side benefit will be publicity. Millions of Americans still don't know Diebold is crooked, because the mainstream media won't cover election fraud issues. They'd be forced to cover this.

Maybe Swid was Wally O Diebold ?
(I put an emoticon in too Joan, so you wouldn't feel alone)

ARepublicIfYouCanKeepIt! #9

You said "And throw out the pseudo-legal concept of 'corporate personhood', which was snuck into our judicial doctrine".

Actually, "corporation" is not a "judicial doctrine".

Corporations are state created entities. State legislators make state law that sets up the laws of incorporation. Like a drivers license is a state concept, so corporations are state concepts.

A corporation, like an automobile, can be used for good or used for bad. The character of any corporation is determined by the people who make up the corporation.

Compare Red Cross to Enron for example.

Once a corporation has been set up under state law, state laws govern how they work, etc. Even federal courts apply state law in federal cases.

There are exceptions to applying state law, and federal courts deal with corporations applying federal law too. For instance federal taxation.

I think you were in reference to the idea that corporations have been given, by federal courts, some civil rights that people also have ... like freedom of speech and the like. There is nothing nefarious in that in and of itself.

My honest take on the whole machine thing is that the Corporatists, Dem and Rep alike, are using them to force elections their way, they do NOT want another populist President, like Roosevelt, to ever be put in the drivers seat again, because they think that would cut into their bottom line by enabling the "rabble"
Could you imagine if we had Single payer health care?
Frist and the health insurance companies would be out of business
Same with Big Pharma, as their drug profits would be controlled
How about world peace? What would that do to the Military Industrial Complex?, they'd be out on their asses too, that would include all the "Senior Fellows" at the Washington think tanks that couldn't get a real job if they tried
How about stopping stock market speculation on energy and food ?, man, another bunch of people sitting around the pool collecting dividend checks for doing nothing would be out looking for a real job too

How about universal catasrophic disaster insurance?
Another bunch of profiteers back to the assembly line

For the above, and many others, a populist would mean certain ruin, so they are going to make this country a "police state" if they have to, to protect their profits
But, I guess thats how this Neo-Fascism began

Dredd Wrote:

"...corporations have been given, by federal courts, some civil rights that people also have...like freedom of speech and the like. There is nothing nefarious in that in and of itself"

Dredd:

If it were only freedom of speech & the like I would agree, but the fact that these corporations can donate huge sums of money to political campaigns and fund the lobbyists who influence goverment officials to push through legislation that benefits their cause creates an unfair imbalance in our political system.

Today's elected officials have become nothing more than puppets of these corporations because these corporations are the only way they can hold onto their office. So to stay in office, these Senators and Representatives do the bidding of their deep pocket corporate friends.

That's pretty nefarious in my book. How can individual citizens compete with that? It means that "we the people" are no longer getting fair representation in government and government itself is now up for sale to the highest bidder.

Jeff J #22

The notion that a corporation can contribute money is fictitious. This is linguistic gymnastics.

What is really happening is that money has been labeled. Money which comes from a "person", and money that comes from a "corporation". The truth is that the source is the same, it is simply labeled and categorized differently.

The fact is it all comes from people. Corporations are inanimate objects that can do nothing. People do things which are labeled "corporate", but the distinction is legal fiction.

We have created imaginary "persons" (corporation) which we pretend can do things, like building aircraft and contributing money to politicians.

The reality is that only people can build aircraft and contribute money to politicians. Some of it is labeled "corporate" and some of it is labeled "human", but it is all from people even tho labeled otherwise.

The bottom line is that too much money from anywhere can be corruptable to elections.

It is a problem that cannot be solved by blaming corporations ... people need to make laws and adhere to them.

Laws that make an election a function of the quality of values the candidates have to use, instead of the quantity of money the candidates have to use.

Even money for each candidate is fair and fine with me. That would put focus on the candidates and what they are saying. Equally.

Excellant points Brad, but I have to aggree with Dennis M from Vermont about voting with pencil and paper ~even if he IS a Republican. I've helped at many elections in our small town in Maine, and there's NEVER any hanky-panky! Every function of the process is monitored by someone from each party and the big old wooden vote box is jealously guarded by both, right out in plain sight. When we tally, everything is counted by both and double-checked again if there are any discrepancies. The only way the process could work better is if we all got a paper receipt. (I think just knowing that the truth is OUT THERE to be recalled at any juncture would go a long way towards keeping everyone honest post-voting.)
Not feasable for large cities, you may say? But if Election Day were a national holiday (Isn't Democtracy important enough for that?) there would be plenty of help. There IS unemployment too, isn't there? In some countries I hear they use schoolchildren to count the vote. THEY take it very seriously! I'd sure rather have a kid count my vote than those Darn machines!

Oh yes! Not to get "off-topic" but my Reality Chick political cartoon is finally coming up on the site loud and clear! (the Tech guys at CuteFTP think it really rocks!) She mentions the stolen elections too, and does some very satisfying neocon Butt-kicking!
Check it out, please, and enjoy!
www.RealityChickComix.com
Granny B

Dredd, your comment is well-taken. I would like to see a law that actually would BAN all political advertising on the Media (after all, THAT is where the biggest chunk of the dirty money goes!)
Instead, the Media, which gets it's power from the people, it's audience, would be required to furnish airtime and coverage to regualr weekly DEBATES, where ALL serious comers are invited and one major topic is thoroughly discussed at a time (i.e. Health, Defense, Education, Environmental issues, etc)...and it should be on ALL major stations.

There is already a law on the books I believe, that requires Television stations to donate a block of time to "Public Service" in return for the incredible wealth and power they've amassed by having been given free access to the PUBLIC airways at the dawn of the TV era, back in the 50's. Let's HOLD THEM TO IT, and not just a few seconds of emergency signal testing per week!

THEY OWE US! And what more important function IS there than contributing to a Properly Informed and Functioning Democracy? (... as opposed to being just a Propaganda machine for the highest bidder, as they are now! ) They will not give up their huge windfall from Pol Ads every 4 years if we don't pass a strict law demanding this.
Lots of work to do cleaning house first before this can happen, no doubt, but I believe this, and Instant Runoff Voting, are the keys to saving this Democracy.

PS, Floridiot (love the name!)
I have the perfect Bumpah-stickah for you!

"Don't Blame ME! ~ MY vote didn't COUNT!"

I'm down here in Florida myself, but I can't use it honestly, because I'm from Maine!

THIS IS DEIBOLD ELECTIONS SYSTEMS

CORPORATION AT BIRTH

A corporation is the usage of paper and ink in an agreement to conduct business according to a state's corporate law. It can do nothing on its own ... either before it is written down on paper, or afterwards.

THESE ARE THE TANGIBLE

FUNCTIONARIES OF A CORPORATION

Bad people make bad corporations, and good people make good corporations. Quite simple really.

Tom Swidarski can begin by making restitution for getting our troops killed in Iraq.

I always wonder, when I see patriots like Steve Heller need defense money, where are all the millionaire liberals & actors who can write this guy a check and not even miss it? Am I off base saying this?

Maybe they could sell it to Microsoft, masters of security. Bwahahahahahaha!

OK, all y'all hard core liberals, let's back off and consider Brad's offer. I consider myself a social liberal and a fiscal conservative, a Southern Democrat, I suppose.
First of all, is somebody delivering Brad's offer to Diebold?
Next, what's so wrong with dialogue? That's what America is supposed to be about. That's what we're trying to win back from the Neocons, who just do whatever the hell they want, now that they've stolen control of everything in our government. Brad is a sharp enough fellow that he can't be bumfuzzled by some corporate millionaire. What would be the harm of talking?
And the reality is, thought we know that paper ballots in a totally transparent election is the only real way to go; a good player in our (what's left of) democracy has to go for small steps. We're so far down; we will never be able to win if we don't use every available option (in football terms, when you're three touchdowns down at halftime you have to start the 2nd half by putting a drive together. Going deep every play will cause you to lose...) to save our America. If, by some miracle, Brad were able to powwow with Mr. Swid, I'd bet Brad would do our whole movement a bunch of good. I'm sure he (unlike the MSM...) wouldn't back down on the hard questions and I'm sure he'd reasonably discuss how to get free and fair elections done.
I, for one, do not have a problem with election machines if the voters want to spend their public money that way; as long as there is a VVPB produced with a reasonable way to do a (truly) random check of vote totals; though it seems to me that smart communities would go with scan machines.
I also am not knee-jerk against corporations, as such, though I think the lack of regulation and monetary control that we have today are insane.
Corporations should be part of a regulated free market; as profit is the best motive for hard work; but greed is also the motive for corruption. Therefore, we must always strive to find the place that balances out the competing interests of fairness to all citizens and profit to the hardest workers with the best ideas. The people being allowed to vote freely for a government that gives us a well-regulated capitalism - that's what I think was intended by the founders of our country.
In conclusion, maybe voting equipment made by private companies is not a bad thing. It's the control of such equipment that we must reserve for the government, and, by extension, the people.

Peace out,
shw

Bia, The name came out of the blue one morning as I was reading a fluff piece in the St Pete Times in the section "Floridian", and I thought these people down here have to be idiots to believe this drivel, the next piece I saw was on buzzflash which linked me to "Brad Blog" I just had to throw a comment out there and that "fluffer" was still on my mind, hence the nickname
If you reside in Florida, you are a Floridian(ot)

If you live in Maine, are you a "Maineiac" ?, I know I would be

Speaking of maniacs

GWN
Is that after he got beaned or is that why be got beaned?

Duck Stupid

Guess Diebold figures everybody knows beside they made their money. Time to cut and run.

Duck Stupid Better?

GWN

WHAT A GREAT PICTURE!!!

LMAO!!!

Regarding Corporations

One of the big problems with corporations that Dredd didn't mention is that corporations have a legal requirement to promote the interests of shareholders. Got that? Shareholders--not the environment, not the community, not the public good.

Some states are starting to tinker around the edges of their legislation regarding corporations, but we have a long way to go.

Of course your main point applies here, too--it is people that make those laws. And laws can be changed if enough people set their minds to it.

JohnDr #36

"Better Duck Stupid", would be better

Sorry, I was trying to put a link there and didn't work. I'll Try again:
Better Duck Stupid
If it doesn't work cut and paste to here:
http://shows.airamericar...dio.com/maddow/node/1623

For Catherine A.: You've got it exactly right. In theory, corporations are merely an extension of the people who run them. as Dredd argues. In practice, that's not how it works. Not even close.

Once they become mega-corporations (NYSE-listed and/or Fortune-500 members) they cease to be the sum-of-the-parts (the parts being the board of directors and executives). They owe their souls to shareholders.

That would still be O.K. if "shareholders" were real people. In fact, most are institutions (huge pension funds representing other corporations and public employees, mutual funds, banks and insurance companies, foundations, and unregulated hedge funds). These institutions control the proxies, and thus can set any corporate agenda; if the C.E.O. doesn't go along, he gets canned by the board.

Institutional investors use outside money managers for the most part. These managers are judged by performance, not by morals or principles. This means stocks have to always go up, or at least go down less than their peer group's average. This is called "relative performance." Thus, corporate boards must always put Wall Street's priorities ahead of doing what's right; any corporate executive thinking otherwise cannot survive. Stock performance, in the end, is all that matters. Doing right is an abstract notion in the corporate world.

That's why O'Dell got canned, not because he helped rig an election for Bush. Diebold's stock collapsed, and the board feared it would go down further from the class-action suits and the Leon County test.

As long as the Sherman Antitrust Act is kept in mothballs, the current situation will get worse, not better. Large corporations should be prevented from stifling competition by buying up smaller companies in the same industry. That's what John D. Rockefeller, Andrew Carnegie, and Commodore Vanderbilt were doing in 1890, and that's why the law was passed.

Now big corporations are doing the same thing, and nothing is done about it. Corporations can no more be talked out of monopolistic practices than a spider can be talked out of building a web. Don't expect any Democrat to come out against corporatism, either; any political candidate running against Wall Street will have the power of money, and the corporate-controlled media, against him.

That's also why the mainstream media refused to discuss election fraud. Wall Street won't allow it.

Why are people so reverent to "capitalism"? How did it get associated with our Founders, other than the motivation for the Revolution?

Browse this piece on the East India Company to see where worshipping profit leads:
http://en.wikipedia.org/...itish_East_India_Company

Corporations, capitalism, unfettered freetrade.. these strive to subvert, or overthrow democracy not support it.. jeez, just look at what is happening in our country right now.. tax cuts during a time of "war", corporate cronyism, rescinding environmental and food laws in favor of corporations, ridiculous laws favoring drug companies... global free trade is leading humanity backwards as a civilized species not forward.

And does anyone really believe sitting down for a good talk will fix anything? There is something about power and wealth that completely corrupts the human mind - we can't stand.. billionaires, corporate empires or economic dynasties any longer. Almost every stain on America's reputation over our history can be linked to corporate (moneyed) manipulation of our system.

1) Cut corporations off at the knees - correct the court reporters note that opened the door to corporate personhood.

2) Entirely eliminate money contributions from campaigns. Limit campaign durations. Use OUR public airways to give equal time to all candidates that can muster a required number of signatures on petitions. Allow "Elected Representatives"... to represent(!) their constituents.

3) Make elections a national holiday (4th of July?), allowing more than one day for voting. Promote civics and history education as necessary exercises in.. "holding on to our republic". Celebrate what America stands for (self-governance), and why. Hold national discussions, programs, about the directions we as a people want our nation to head, what needs correction, and why.

4) Paper ballots, hand counted, in open view of everyone. All tallies open and available to the public! (Alaska!). [We survived weeks of waiting in 2000, we can easily wait a day or two for an honest count.]

5) Reform legislative corruption, earmarks, inappropriate attachment of laws, mandatory review time for proposed legislation based upon length of bill, and depth of impact. Etc..., etc...

6) Reign in, and open to inspection, military and intelligence agencies and their "black" programs. Make foreign policy something the people have full knowledge of and voice in. Our service men and women (brothers and sisters) pay the ultimate price here.

Ya-Ya-Ya,.... Mr. NEW CEO - DIEBOLD LLC,...

What about this ? !!!!!!

Smoke and Mirrors at the outset,..

Smoke and Mirrors to the end

Who do you think you are fooling

A "Mirage of Respectability" you are

"Whistle-blower" stumbles upon illegal/unethical conduct,.. concealed by Diebold and their Law Firm.

They proceed to grind this "Whistle-blower"
into sawdust........ rather than focus on more ethical
behavior,.. corrective actions,.. behavior modification.

Whistle-blower sawdust: CLICK LINK

Could you explain this deplorable conduct ?

If you pour perfume on steaming pile of crap,..
it still does not smell good..... DIEBOLD STINKS !!!
We are sick of stepping in your SHIT !!!!

ditto: Sequoia LLC
ditto: Election Systems & Software LLC

There once was a man from Diebold
to corrupt politicians he sold
The machines really suck
for the people they fuck
But for the powers that be they are gold

Everything done by this administration has $$$$ (Big Bucks) behind it. They use terror to prod the masses... I remember reading or hearing something about bird flu some time ago that suggested the actual virus is not new. It has been around for about 50 years. My memory sucks, but here's the real bottom line:

Bird Flu my ass!
Thanks for the link Old Turk.

Yeah slightly off topic, but all those whores think alike.... $$$$$$.

.

OOP'S - Wrong LINK

Diebold/Whistle-blower/Sawdust

CLICK LINK

CLICK LINK

Bird Flu my ass!

I'm having no luck with those links.. If this doesn't work checkout:

http://news.independent....ericas/article350787.ece

Diebold could adopt open-source software for their election products,
add the necessary printers,
and the controversy over the use of their machines would end.

So would their usefulness to those who would steal elections.

Not really Andytiedye,
They have too much other vendor controlled crap on their machines, vendor controlled ROM, Memory Cards, etc.
Besides, their rep is already in the crapper. I think the new CEO is making a good business decission. They should do exactly what the President should do, STEP DOWN.
It really is best for them and the country. No doubt the old CEO wasn't the only crook in the company. Just cut and run is the best for all concerned.

I think it's FAIR to force "election machine vendors" to hire REAL DEVELOPERS and produce ALL their code INTERNALLY.. Then they can have FULL disclosure and not have to worry about Bill saying "nonono.. you can't show anyone all the sleep calls in my Microcrap OS!"...

There really is no excuse not to force certian constraints on companies that want to make election equipment that will be used in Federal Elections.. and if no company "in the free market" can do it under the restrictions imposed [to ensure it's all fair and legal and on the up-n-up], then we keep hand counting until someone can do it profitably.

Talking about companies.. let's talk about
fleecing of Americans by greedy corporate types .. I mean, they want to make SURE you are an UNINFORMED consumer.. The Credit Card lobyists are doing their damndest to make sure "average folks" don't have a clue as to the "true cost" of Credit Cards.. and say they are doing it for the consumer?

Stupid assholes not thinking about the consequences of their actions and trying to "get a quick fix" put in place have effectively fucked 1/2 of this country. And the single richest, most profitable (until oil companies took that role) companies in the country/history are doing everything in their power to keep us slaves?

This isn't America anymore, it's the U.$.S.A.. Corporations have succeeded where communist dictators have failed..

Catherine A #38, RLM #41

You said "One of the big problems with corporations that Dredd didn't mention is that corporations have a legal requirement to promote the interests of shareholders. Got that? Shareholders--not the environment, not the community, not the public good" and "They [corporate officials] owe their souls to shareholders".

Again, if the shareholders are good people and want the interests of the environment, the community, or the public good to be especially well considered by a corporation, they can do that.

It is good shareholders and officers that make good corporations, and bad shareholders and officers who make bad corporations.

If they want their corporation to do good things they will campaign and demand that, or if they want the corporation to make chemicals that pollute the air they will do that.

There are no laws that mandate that corporations be bad for anything, on the contrary corporations thru people are required to keep the law too.

Any business structure ... joint venture, partnership, sole proprietor, or what have you, can be good or bad. What really matters is the type of people running the show. Are they good or bad?

Any analogy for a corporation or any other business entity or inanimate legal fiction or even any government is no different, in the context here, than a chain saw or an automobile or a voting machine.

They are as good or as bad as the people that make and use them. "The devil made me do it" or "the corporation made me do it" are cop outs and the real perpetrators are human beings.

No more no less.

Corporations act through agents:

Orphan Belle Mining & Milling Co. v. Pinto Mining Co., 35 Colo. 564, 572, 85 P. 323, 325 (1906); cf. Federal Deposit Ins. Corp. v. American Cas. Co., 843 P.2d 1285, 1293 (Colo. 1992) (banking corporation acts through directors and officers) (link here).

If one corporation is bad per se, then two corporations should be double bad. Right?

"The ACLU is comprised of two separate corporate entities, the American Civil Liberties Union and the ACLU Foundation" (link here).

Is the ACLU bad because it is a corporation?

Is the Red Cross bad because it is a corporation?

Dredd # 38 The 'corporations made of good people can do good things' isn't true, although I don't remember the exact case but a corporation was sued by a shareholder for doing good with charity work and was restrained by the judge in the case not to do it. While constrained to meet regulations, corporations must maximize profitability for the shareholders. An auto company was in court and was told that they were irresponsible for putting gas tanks into cars that blew up, it would have cost them 4 dollars and change per car to avoid this. They put their accountant on the stand and he showed that they would have spent more money that way than defending the lawsuits. They won the case, due to the fact that the corporation's responsibility is to maximize profits to the shareholders.

Comment#7,Joan...The most disturbing thing about your post to me is that Dean is distancing himself from Conyers etc. I read on Bradblog that Kos had taken money from diebold..When I saw the webmasters discouraging dissent about bad machines after the Hackett race in Ohio, I commented on Kos that I'd heard they took money from diebold. All my comments were instantly removed from the site and I have never been able to access it since. Dean also gave money to Kos. Something really smells in the Democratic party. We need to be vigilant. I personally like Dean and this is sad.

#56 Molly,
Yes, I agree with you: I had been fairly impressed with Dean lately, so what Miller said regarding this report was upsetting. I don't know enough about it to come to a conclusion. All I can say is that Miller seemed credible, and that it's also credible that Dean might want to distance himself from Conyers politically (very unfortunate, if true), but beyond that my official viewpoint is "who the hell knows".

Kerry's credibility was already at pretty much zero in my estimation, so that part of it didn't surprise me all that much.

I'd heard these things about Kos--questions about their possibly having taken money from odd sources, about posts being censored-- but I was never a regular there & know very little about all that.

Re #s 13-15 Old Turk,
Sorry? I don't get it.

Brantl #55

Your post is moronic but I hope that you are not.

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