The American people need to remember, that even thought bush is cloaked in the Presidency and might appear to be omnipotont and informed he is really the same incompetent drunk he always was...

{ed note: Comment deleted due to personal attacks towards other commenters, and full article COPY and PASTED without truncation or attribution.}

I would say he was engaged in an extremely selective use of intelligence, perhaps even aiding those who outright fabricated intelligence.

Where was this debate in the mainstream last year? How did the administration hold it back until after the election?

AEI> isn't that in the same building with Cheney's PNAC frankenstein creation?

What a koinkydink that the Cheney/Wolfy/Rummy cabal's "Project of a New American Century" just happens to be in the same building with the American Enterprise Institute.

http://en.wikipedia.org/...can_Enterprise_Institute

And , Lynne Cheney, Dick's wife just happens to be an AEI Senior Fellow. Of course the same foundations fund both AEI and the PNAC. Reuel Marc Gerecht is also a resident fellow of the AEI & the director of the Project for the New American Century's Middle East Initiative and a former Middle East specialist at the CIA. However, I believe the most notable member of the AEI is Michael Ledeen. Ledeen was previously involved in the transfer of arms to Iran during the Iran-Contra affair. The following quote from Wikipedia is regarding Ledeen and his possible connection to the Niger Yellowcake Forgeries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Ledeen

'... In 2005, Vincent Cannistraro, former head of counterterrorism operations at the CIA and the intelligence director at the National Security Council under Ronald Reagan, when asked by Ian Masters if Ledeen was the source of the forged memo that claimed that Iraq had sought to purchase yellowcake uranium from Niger replied, "You'd be very close." However, just moments earlier when asked, "Do we know who produced those documents?" Cannistraro stated, " I’d rather not speak about it right now, because I don’t think it’s a proven case"... '

And while Cheney himself knows there's no connection to Iraq and 9/11, he also certainly knows that there IS a connection to Iraq and PNAC (even before he was selected as co-president):

http://www.newamericance...dingAmericasDefenses.pdf

Seems Cheney is preaching to his own choir at AEI.

GOOGLE PNAC> "OUT" THE CABAL ! http://www.cafepress.com/googlepnac

I think most people in the world agreed that Hussein was a problem and a potential threat that needed to be resolved. That is not what the argument is about or ever was about. The argument was about how to address the problem, about pre-emptive war.

I'm glad to hear that the Dems are getting their act together and maybe it is politically necessary to moderate language, but in a way it's too bad, because "lied us into war" is the best description of what the Bush administration did.

RawStory.com has a link to a Rolling Stone article on the Rendon Group. They were the people hired (by someone who has yet to be disclosed) to generate intell. the Pentagon Office of Special Plans (OSP) and the White House could use to build support for the war. The CIA looked into some of the Rendon group's "intell" and dismissed it as garbage. So, Rendon went to Judy Miller who wrote it up for the New York Times. The article also says he almost single-handedly created the Iraqi National Congress (INC) and put Chalabi at their head.

Rendon is a very interesting fellow in the American political scene. It's amazing I've never heard of him before this.

If the Niger documents are forgeries and the aluminum tubes were mis-analyzed and the Iraqi 'movement' against Saddam was manufactured and the WMD never existed and the war was pushed through non-official means (Rendon, Miller, OSP, etc.) then it was all fake. If the Congress was given cherry-picked intell then they were lied to. It's all crap.

Note: Are we safer now than before the war? Howard Dean was criticized for saying the removal of Saddam wouldn't make us safer. Isn't it now true we are LESS safe than when Saddam was in power? Just askin'.

"Now if you libs could only make Americans forget this, you'd be in good shape. Of course they will never forget. They arent as stupid as you people."

See Ricky, here's your fundamental problem.. Not all of us here are "libs", nor do we support Democrats just because they are Democrats. I know it's hard for your right-wing morons to get that through your thick (and often empty) skulls, but you should really try. I've seen MORE Repukes supporting bad Rethugs simply because it's the party line, but I've seen a lot of Democrats walk away from their leaders when their leaders fail them. I'm guessing you still support Frist, Hastert, DeLay, and that jackass from Alaska who refused to let the comittee have a vote simply because he didn't want big-oil on the record with their lies...

Secondly, While I have no direct knowledge of what any of the people in your post had access to in the way of intelligence, it would seem that there were a lot of people jumping the gun.. It -also- is telling that you are mixing and matching (cherry-picking intel, if you will) reports from different points in time. Some of those quotes seem to be from when Clinton bombed Iraq in '98? Or when ever he did it.. Why? Saddam wasn't letting inspectors inspect. Yet, what you fail to include is any of the FACTS that show that the inspectors WERE in Iraq when your nut-job drunkard coke-addict illegally invaded Iraq. Why are you bringing up things from "years before" (in some cases, 1/2 a decade) when the intel AT THE TIME didn't warrent "invasion"?

And, if the "facts" now show that there was a "mistake", why can't the Repugs get on board with that? Why are they still "making a case" for war? why are they STILL saying the SAME things that were DISPROVED? Iraq had nothing to do with Terrorists, didn't/doesn't have WMDs, and now Saddam is gone.. why are we still there with no plan? no timetable? Hell, even the IRAQI LEADERS are saying they want to know when we'll be headed out, yet you guys don't want to talk about that..

But, that's ok Ricky.. just keep making this a "right left" issue and stop paying attention to what's going on around you. Keep screaming at the top of your lungs that "those damn Democrats are no better! they did something wrong at some point too! Stop looking the crimes being committed NOW by my side!".. that will get you, and this country, far.

The Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity wrote substantive, truthful letters to the President of the United States in Feb and Mar of 2003, and published them.

Too bad Members of Congress didn't read them; too bad more of our fellow Americans didn't, as well.

Here's a little pamphlet that indicates the importance of knowing as much history as possible, as well as searching for the facts, every day:

http://missionnotaccomplished.us/WTPv17n.pdf

Feel free to share it with everyone you know.

Peace,
UL

Brad and WP

This blog is suffering from a lot of troll garbage lately. Advertising (netpowersoft), extremely long posts(Ricky), name calling etc.

The George Bush Democrats should be purged from the Democratic Party, and the neoCons should be purged from the Republican Party.

For Ricky: Everything in your lengthy post was known to United Nations weapons inspectors. That is why, over Saddam Hussein's objections, Hans Blix and his crew were conducting their research.

The U.N. inspectors were not finished with their work. The Bush administration decided (using 9/11 as an excuse, meanwhile trying to tie Osama bin Laden to Saddam) that time was up. They announced "intelligence" that indicated Saddam was moving the weapons around to hide them, and went ahead and invaded Iraq.

So, no matter how many people mistakenly believed WMD existed, it was the Bush administration, based on a false linkage between Iraq and Osama bin Laden, and further on a false linkage with yellow-cake uranium in Niger, that unilaterally invade a sovereign country.

We're not stupid, Ricky. People who try to divert the blame for the Iraq invasion are.

Good response in #15 RLM. Now I see the Iraqui government is calling for a timetable for US to get out. Everyone sees this is necessary but the Neocons who want to build those permanent bases and keep the Halliburton stock at 300% increase. As a guy who was fooled by Powell into supporting the invasion I want to say thank you Liberals and Progressives for always seeing the truth behind the PR stunts our silverspoon pretend president keeps throwing at us. Keep digging and show the public what was done. Bush hijacked our grief about 9/11 and flew it to Iraq. My sons (12 and 15) could have been the ones to die for the Bush lies, instead it was someone else's and I am so sorry for you. Who will be the last one to die for THIS mistake?

Oh Ricky your so blind, you blow my mind, Oh Ricky.......Its not about right or left ,its about right or wrong, get it .....I don't give a damn who it is, in what office, in whatever state, they need to do their job and are to be held to a higher standard than your average Joe....Right or Wrong, get it !!!

Clinton engaged in selective use of intelligence in Somalia and Bosnia. Kennedy and Johnson engaged in selective use of intelligence in Vietnam. And I'm sure that Truman (WWII and Korea) and Roosevelt (WWII) engaged in similar deceptions in the wars they fought. If you think for one second that Congress sees everything Presidents do, you are a fool. Every U.S. President from the beginning picked and chose the data that supported their positions. Stop being naive, or pretending to be so. Democracy in Iraq is good for the world, unless you're a communist or fascist.

I know you've been responded to #2, but bottom line there are more ignorant quotes from the present monkeys in this administration than any collection you can gather to 'make your point'. Bottom line they lied and statements that support their lies are mute since elected officials are trained (silly them) to believe the president and his cronies. So what point do you have with old quotes, none can be taken from it except your wasted energy. Criminals belong in jail and when the people start jailing administrations that lie and start fraudulent wars than history will stop repeating itself! Stop allowing revisionist history from the Christopher Columbus 'hero' stories (he was a murdering abusive bastard, not a Christian...just like the liar in charge today) to my favorite Franklin Roosevelt that did the most for society while still using lies that allowed Pearl Harbor to happen, to the most scandalous of all the bush clan (both daddy, son and the late Preston). Tell the truth so history will stop repeating mankind’s horrible deeds!

PS...Screw Politically correct language too....call them what they are liars that fraudulently and purposefully fixed evidence for their preplanned invasion.

Lies, paranoia and glory mongering

Lets remember how intoxicated the nation became shortly after the 9/11 event.

One case makes it clear how social intoxication witll change everything:

"Once trumpeted as one of the Justice Department's significant triumphs against terrorism ... Now a federal grand jury in Detroit is investigating whether the lead prosecutor ... should be indicted for unfairly tipping the scales.

It is a highly unusual case." (link here).

I think this case is a microcosm and shows that the administration was and is still intoxicated.

If the statement "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" is true, it means that power has toxins in it.

It means that power intoxicates ... in other words the administration is in effect drunk.

The current CYA positioning is an attempt by everyone, congress, the admin, and the courts to deal with the hangover and the morning after remorse.

The United States got drunk and did some strange things. The "stay the course" mentality is a naked ploy of denial.

Stop the war, repeal the Patriot Act, and learn from this drunken stupor that has plagued our nation for too long now.

Lets get over it and fix the voting machines and have a fair election in '06. That will begin the healing but it will take a decade to clean up.

KMS #14

Read this , then come talk to me about being a facist. If you support Bush and all this crap they are doing, you support fascism, period. Get over yourself... you are part of the problem when you let these people continue doing what they are doing.. they are undermining the entire country and freedoms all over the world

The Iraqi people do NOT want us there, and are voting with their guns, get it? The leaders there want us out, the people want us out, we had no business going in, etc etc. Can't you get your pea-brain around that? Why are you only saying what "they" want you to say? Are you HONESTLY trying to defend the autrocities commited by THIS president with autrocities and failures from OTHER presidents?

There is only ONE thing from your post that has any merrit, and you probably don't even realize what that is (and that's what's the most sad).. The only point is, our Congress (and perhaps the public) needs to see "what the President sees".. This bullshit of "national security" and "can't let our enemies know what we know" and all that other bushit is just that, bullshit. Look, if Saddam KNOWS we know about his trying to get Uranium, do you think he can still get it? no, he has to try something else.. All you do by "hiding" this info is spread mistrust and allow for what's going on now (illegal conflicts that make a few people pathetically rich and kills innocent people).

Our country is going in the shitter, and it's people like you helping to herd us to the swirling void.. Thanks asshole, for being so dense and having such a closed mind and being so blind to the world around you.. Our posterity thanks you too..

Barbra Streisand statement "outs" the PNAC !

http://barbrastreisand.com/statements.html

"The Plan To Invade Iraq Before 9/11 ...Barbra Streisand
Posted on November 14, 2005
Last week Democratic Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid shut down the Senate. Frustrated, angry and seeking answers, Reid threatened to delay legislative action until the Intelligence Committee followed through on its promised investigation of prewar Iraq intelligence failures. Democrats are demanding answers...and now, so are the American people.

But let's remember... 9/11 and faulty intelligence alone did not lead to the invasion of Iraq. This war was being planned in the minds of some for many years. George Bush's former Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill revealed in his book that at one of the very first National Security Council meetings after Bush took office in January 2001 he discussed the notion of invading Iraq and that he seemed desperate to find an excuse for pre-emptive war against Saddam Hussein.

Many of Bush's inner circle are members of Project for the New American Century (PNAC), a neo-conservative think-tank that promotes an ideology of total U.S. world domination through the use of force. Back in 1998, PNAC sent an open letter to President Clinton urging his administration to implement a strategy for removing Saddam's regime from power. This letter was signed by Paul Wolfowitz, Donald Rumsfeld, John Bolton and Richard Perle. These men, along with fellow PNAC members Dick Cheney and Scooter Libby, were the primary architects of the Iraq war 5 years later. In 2000, PNAC produced a document entitled Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategies, Forces And Resources For A New Century. The plan outlined how the US should go about taking military control of the Gulf region whether or not Saddam Hussein is in power.

Let's remember some of our recent history with Iraq and Saddam Hussein. The United States' relationship with Saddam has been vastly contradictory. In the 1980's, the U.S. heavily supported Saddam against Iran in the Iran-Iraq war. Saddam was in violation of human rights laws by gassing the Kurds. However, the US turned a blind eye, instead opting to retain a friendly relationship with Saddam in order to access intelligence. The US government furnished Saddam with weapons. We even have pictures documenting Donald Rumsfeld, then special envoy of President Ronald Reagan, shaking hands with Saddam in 1983! In 1990, Saddam invaded Kuwait, stating that he believed he had the silent permission to do so by then US Ambassador to Iraq, April Glaspie. However, the United States, under George H.W. Bush, responded with Operation Desert Storm to quell the invasion. The same weapons we had given to Saddam to defeat the Iranians a decade earlier, were now being used to kill US soldiers. Although the Persian Gulf War was considered a victory for the United States, ultimately Saddam was not removed from power. This was a tremendous disappointment for the conservative hawks emerging in the Republican party.

Since the Gulf War, there has been a covert but persistent mission by neo-cons to overthrow Saddam Hussein by any means necessary in order to reorganize the Middle East in the name of democracy. However democracy was not the reason Bush gave to the country when he decided to invade Iraq....it was the presence of WMDs, which UN inspectors did not find. Former US top weapons inspector David Kay testified before congress asserting this fact. And Director General of the UN's International Atomic Energy Agency, Mohamed ElBaradei, requested more time from the administration to investigate the weapons claims in Iraq before rushing to war. Those in the Bush inner circle had tremendous influence on his final decision to unilaterally attack Iraq in 2003 without the support of the United Nations and the rest of the world.

The notion of invading Iraq and overthrowing Saddam was gaining momentum long before the terrorists attacked on September 11, 2001. Only once America was attacked did Bush and his war mongering neo-con colleagues have the perfect opportunity to utilize faulty intelligence in order to make a case for war and garner the blind support of most of the American public. However, we now know that this war, where thousands of young American soldiers have died, was years in the making. Let's hope that the frustration, anger and determination felt by Democrats and the American public continue to fuel this investigation to uncover the truth. "

GOOGLE PNAC>"OUT" THE CABAL http://www.cafepress.com/googlepnac

"1951: Madison's Capital Times editor John Patrick Hunter takes to the streets with a petition, (which is actually the Declaration of Independence, along with portions of the Bill of Rights) and tries to get people to sign it. Only one in 112 does. The rest find it too subversive. More than fifty years later, Harper's editor Lewis H Lapham explains that America is "blessed with a bourgeoisie that will welcome fascism as gladly as it welcomes the rain in April and the sun in June.""

Hmm.. amazing.. in the 50s (and it's only getting worse), people thought our "bill of rights" was too subversive? Perhaps all the crap from the government about "communism" and all the "evils it brings" was beaten into our citizens? And there are STILL people who suckle on that teat, guzzling the rotten milk of hatered for no -real- reason.

It's telling that part of what the Admin and their supporters are doing is using terms like "communism" and "fascism" to try and "offend" or "scare" people into accepting their lies. Last bastion of someone who has no valid position, name calling and fear-mongering. Go look up the "non-politicised" definition of Communism.. it's an economic model, not a governing model. Better yet, here:

A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members

and

a political theory favoring collectivism in a classless society

stop using it like it's a dirty word.. the only thing you are saying to anyone with a wit of brain-power is that you don't have a valid position so you'll scare people into doing what you want.. here's the word that defines that: Bully (#1 A person who is habitually cruel or overbearing, especially to smaller or weaker people.#2 A hired ruffian; a thug.)

Hmm.. how's this for selective?

When you arrest someone, make sure you aren't charging them in a way that PROVES the veracity of what you are trying to hide.

See, you can't charge him with releasing "secrets" unless they really are secrets. That is, if he took a piece of paper and made something up (lie, forged docs, what have you), the crime isn't leaking secrets.. When he's convicted of "releasing secrets", it will be proof that Bush DID want to bomb Al Jazeera (not to mention, we have THIS bit of 'flawed intel' at one point "In November 2002, Al-Jazeera’s office in Kabul, Afghanistan, was destroyed by a U.S. missile. None of the crew was at the office at the time. U.S. officials said they believed the target was a terrorist site and did not know it was Al-Jazeera’s office").

Oh.. and one last bit to KMS, as long as I'm posting this.. We have no LEGAL (or moral) right to invade a country and force "our version" of Democracy on them. Not only is it not legal, but when the people aren't in a mindset (meaning, their culture and social structures) to "support" a Democracy, "bringing it to them" is counter productive. When a people are ready for Democracy, they fight for it. The Iraqi people weren't fighting for a Democracy, nor did they officially ask anyone for help. We're imposing OUR will on THEM, that's imperialism, not spreading Democracy.

a rose by another name still stinks - they LIED us into 2100 wrongful deaths at least. over 10,000 injured or mained for life for LIES. 10's of thousands of civilian deaths for greed and power based on LIES. There's no "honing" the message.

A LIE is a LIE is a LIE.

Seems the Bushes are GREAT at keeping secrets.. No wonder this guy want's to lock up all the papers from his and his daddy's presidencies..

I didn't realize how far back the Bush Dynisty went.. Scarry... I wonder what the Bush Family Net Worth is..

And here is the kind of thing that happens when people "in charge" or "positions of authority" lie or mislead or just want it "bad enough" to disregard their DUTY and OBLIGATION..

Yeah, it's ok to let Bush get away with killing innocent people because it's been happening in our past?

WTF is wrong with people? NO corruption should be tolerated EVER by our leaders. I don't care if it's a Democrat, Republican, Priest, Fireman, Police Officer, school Principle, ANYONE. Breaking the law is one thing, and breaking the trust should be met with -immidiate- removal from the position of authority, even if no crime was "committed". Why? How the hell can we -ever- have faith in our "systems" again if we let shady people stay in power? And, if a CRIME is committed by someone in office, NO PARDONS!.. convict them, don't protect them.. Hell, the -reason- they are protected is because we let them write laws to protect themselves.. how stupid is that?

You all claim your justice is blind and yet not one can even achknowledge the exsistence of the same quotes by your own party.

People know this and know what a joke you all are because of it. Thats why we run everything, and you just complain about it.

I feel so much better with 30,000 GM employees being laid off, bushy is so at home in Mongolia - maybe he should stay there!

Wow Medium [head is]Right[up his ass].. you sure know how to read, huh? Go read my post #7 where I not only acknowledge the quotes from the Dems, but comment on them as well. Notice how some of the quotes were from '98 when Clinton made a bombing raid? Notice how I said a lot of people were jumping the gun? and notice how I said they made those quotes on intel that is seemingly not what the President had, and we don't know what intel Congress had at that point?

I talked to the points, mentioned their statements, and will go so far AGAIN as to say "they screwed up". Hello? You in there? anyone home Mr. Moron's not Right?

It amazes me how you guys can walk right past the elephant in your living room and ask "what's that stink?".. Did you NOT see the MANY bits where -we- here are saying "this isn't about partisanship, it's about right an wrong"? I know, I know.. you can't admit you are really a hate-monger who likes to inflict pain on people so you have to keep playing the "partisan game", even though the adults in the room have moved beyond that.

Savantster #23

It seems to be the new mantra - "It's ok because - insert a democrat here - did it"

They just don't get the point.

Speaking of Selective use of intel - check this out.

BUSH KNEW NO IRAQ-9/11 TIE TEN DAYS AFTER ATTACKS

Seems the lie has gone on even longer than we thought.

At last someone in Congress has learned the game they supposedly invented (or at least self-syndicated and perfected)...the politically correct EXACT name game. The White House will be running scared in no time now that he's guessed the magical phrase for labeling their war-leaning tactical info. delivery plot. If only this guy weren't a moron (with a former stuttering problem, I'd bet...).

For example: He cites his perception, as a youngster, of learning about George Washington and how his impression involved and absolute trustworthiness on the part of the position of America's supreme leader...but boo-hoo! That mean ol' rascal, Georgie Bush has "changed the rules"...tsk-tsk-tsk. Am I alone in believing that A) "The Rules", as he puts it, are comprised exclusively, explicitly (and evidently, for politicians, excruciatingly) of 1.The Declaration of Independance, 2.The united States Constitution, and 3.The Bill of Rights. Especially from a "George Washingtony" standpoint. Based on my reading of those three documents (and additionally, the Federalist and Anti-Federalist Papers for establishing a frame of reference regarding intent, etc.), my impression of The Rules pertaining to the president is that they make no secret of the idea that the president is NOT to be trusted, and should hold as little independent personal power as possible in any given arena. Our modern perception of the "Commander in Chief" position has been VASTLY distorted over the many years since the post was established.
James Madison said (and I forget the EXACT wording here, so I'm paraphrasing, based on my perception of his words), in defense of establishing the position of president (the debate over which was one of the longest and ugliest of the Constitutional convention, by the way), that he was to be merely a sawed-off little token leader, basically holding no power to do anything beyond use the restroom without the express permission and supervision of Congress (which is only required to meet like, once or twice annually, by the way--as opposed to making a career out of telling us what we can and cannot do, convening to plot EVERY DAY--minus a liberal helping of paid vacation days, of course).

So: NO, Sen. Graham--Bush has most decidedly NOT changed the rules. He has actually been so kind as to provide a very detailed, real-life, modern illustration of precisely WHY the rules were written as they were, and exactly what can happen if the jaded, complacent people of this nation exercise any apathy at all in regards to enforcing them (i.e. put too much faith in the president, or ever let him have personal power over our lives in any way that he could POSSIBLY use for selfish gain).

Well Jeff.. I suppose, I have to say "well said".. I agree completely.

The National Journal article looks pretty much like a smoking gun.

Now, if only the public can be informed of it. Somehow I doubt the MSM will report a word about it.

Congress: Now, Ms. Rice, just what was the intell on a connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda?

Condi: I have a new pair of shoes. Do you like them?

We must learn from the corruption of the BCFOL. We can never allow this to happen again. Keep pressing for a better result in 2006. Protect the vote.

COMMENT #24 ...Medium Right said on 11/22/2005 @ 3:14pm PT... you stated:
"You all claim your justice is blind and yet not one can even achknowledge the exsistence of the same quotes by your own party.

People know this and know what a joke you all are because of it. Thats why we run everything, and you just complain about it. "

How Wrong! Read what people are saying, we don't care who's lie, but to stop the abuse of power we must act now and jail the assholes that feel free to rob the American coffers, kill American's Brave Soldiers (that aren't there all to support bush, they're there to support their families with food..very little with this administration) and destroy every ounce of integrity this country had left. Yes in the past many of both parties have lied, and some were prosecuted, but not enough. We need to not allow 'pardons' and jail the entire crew to set an example to our future leaders that Enough is Enough!

KMS #14

You informed us that you are a criminal defense practitioner. How many of your bank robber clients are doing time because you told the judge "other people rob banks too"?

We here don't see any merit in your position that if a dem does a wrong that empowers a rep to do it without recrimination.

The reason the politicians you support do not prosecute dems for wrongs as they should is because your politicans do not know right from wrong and would not see any wrong in it.

A lie is a lie is a lie. Why won't the members of Congress call it what it is. Because they are all beholden to Corporate interests. Someone must have put the word out, tone down the message or you (they) are cut off. Why does Congress hate America. Why won't those that we have put our trust in, quit with worrying about the elections and start doing something to save this Country. I am so sick of it all. D.C. must smell as rank as N.O. The stench of raw sewage, chemicals, dead corpses..animals and humans yet to be discovered.

I just am thankful I am aware of what is going on. I pity those that come here and post nonsense. I think I know why they do, I wandered into a right wing site the other nite and couldn't believe the total ignorance of those posting. I believe the trolls come here for intellectual stimulation..something they don't find on 'their' sites. Someday I hope they wake up.

I don't know what it is going to take for us to get our Country back...definitely not on Congress's agenda. I don't think we have hit bottom yet, I think more is coming our way. Our Karma is coming back big time.....we have a couple of hundred years of it coming and I think we are just at the tip of the iceberg. M4

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