This is right in line with the parking ban in the area.

Good thing this is a free country!

Isn't that what bushco is fighting for?

Disgusting travesty.

Unbounded evil.

Exactly what Bush and the neoconsters inspire in their minions.

UL

What can you say, some people are just bottom feeders.

Rednecks that would do something like that are usually too stupid to keep their mouths shut. I'd love to see a reward offered for informaton leading to arrests.

Material possessions are transient - the proof that one brave mother made a stand in Texas can't be erased.

The memories of Camp Casey, all the video and audio, all the media reports, coupled with the impact of the new Camp Casey in DC on September 24, will be woven into a tapestry of stories that we tell our children and our children's children. We won't let this legacy die.

Although it's sad (especially that they took Casey's shoes), we don't need any of the things that were stolen - there is undeniable proof that Camp Casey and Cindy Sheehan made a difference.

You know every time a Bush supporter does something so low and dispicable I think that is the worse now.....then by gosh they can come up with something even meaner and dirtier.

What kind of human being, is it, that will lie, cover up, cheat and steal from others and still be considered part of the human race?

If the shoes were really one of the last things she had of Casey's, she should have taken them with her.

Cindy has faded into oblivion. That is one of the only good things about Katrina. And hopefully Cohen her advisor has gone back to making ice cream I will never buy.

Go see the movie "The Last Raid" and see real American heros, unlike Cindy.

Can't wait to see "nuts on parade" in DC on Sept. 24.

Impeachment is almost here - good luck!!!!!!

Paul-Don't you think stealing crosses and Casey's boots was a terrible thing to do?

> Paul-Don't you think stealing crosses and Casey's boots was a terrible thing to do?

Sure.

But Camp Casey was just for a protest and not really for a memorial or at least never meant to be permanent. If she really wanted to talk to Bush (FOR THE SECOND TIME) she could have done it without the spectacle that it was. Without an advisor. Without Moveon.org and M. Moore's blog.

We also have laws about memorials and crosses.

It's Ok to put a cross beside a road where someone was killed but the real memorial should be at the real gravesite.

Should Cindy put crosses for Casey in every state? No! And people can certainly take them up if they want to. If she put a cross on my property, I'd take it out.

Hope to see you in DC!

Paul: Not is I see you first.

I feel sorry for you Paul. You have no conscience (yet) and have failed to comprehend and gestalt the precarious situation into which your beloved President has put us. There is a slow awakening going on in this country. It happened to me shortly after I voted for Bush in 2000. It happened to me because I observed the outcomes of his administration's early behavior in a logical manner and extrapolated the likely outcomes, outcomes that are now evident all around us, with more to come unless we can find a way to stop their agenda. I sincerely hope that you don't have to go through losing a child in war or having your life destroyed in a national disaster before your conscience awakens and your eyes open.

Paul obviously you don't know the law here in Texas people can put crosses, flowers, teddy bears by the site. Laws are different in each state.

Are you looking for attention or are you really such a cold, callous, unhappy person?

Shameful.
Paul I think you are symbol of a regrettable spectacle in this Country right along with Dictator Bush.
Camp Casey was much more than a Protest and if you were capable of caring you would have already known this fact.

I just got an email from a friend who saw this blog -
"So they want to be the ones with compassion as long as it fits their agenda."

Hey Texas Lady - I live in Texas. 45 years.

Singleton Blvd. named after my family.

Camp Casey was never meant to be permanent!
Just a very very very tiny group of leftists who wanted their 15 minutes. Now they can take it on the road to DC - sort of a traveling freak show.

Sorry, Singleton Blvd. in Dallas.

Paul, you'd be so much more comfortable calling Rush or better yet O'Reilly. O'Reilly claims the people who stayed in New Orleans are all drug users. Didn't realize O'Reilly was so up close and personal with the people in New Orleans.

Mean spirited people really should hang together.

Well Paul then you know about white crosses, teddy bears and flowers being allowed on memorial sites here in Texas. So lets not try to say it is a law not to have a memorial. Also, I don't believe Cindy put anything on your property.

Paul have you checked lately to see if you have a heart?

So Texaslady, I am leaving soon to go to NO to hold more people's heads underwater.

I am sure there were several drug addicts and crack ho's who stayed behind. At least 7 or so.

Certainly now we have 4500 sex offenders unaccounted for and no telling how many ex-cons are running loose. Hopefully if they kill again in Texas they will get the death penalty and swiftly.

Did you hear the people in the Astrodome blame the Mayor for the problems and they praised Bush and believe his speech last night? The MSM was not happy with their answers.

I have a heart - Cindy was a liar from the beginning. SHE ALREADY HAD HER MEETING WITH BUSH. Her son would have been pissed if he witnessed the things she said and did. We see that her family disavowed her and her husband filed for divorce.

Camp Casey was TEMPORARY!!!!!!

Paul, so your friend said, "So they want to be the ones with compassion as long as it fits their agenda."

My agenda, Paul, is to save our Republic from dense, blind, illogical, uninformed, poorly read, warmongering, greedy idiots who get the totality of their knowledge from corporate whores in the media.

Is that clear enough?

Excuse me Paul, so you knew Casey Sheehan and had a conversation with him, and Casey said he wanted his mom to just cry quietly in the corner?

Cindy never said she had not met with Bush, she requested another meeting. AND he met TWICE with another mom but couldn't with Cindy?

A 15 minute meeting the first day would have canceled the whole program. But Bush does not care about you, or anyone else unless he needs something from you.

It is all about what have you done for me lately, from the Bush crowd.

Before people were rescued, Cheney gave Halliburton unlimited spending on 3 Naval bases, Cheney strong armed a power company to work on the pipeline instead of a hospital with patients in it.

It is hard to admit your hero has legs of sand.

Your level of hatred for your fellow man never fails to amaze, Paul.

The irony of calling yourself a Christian is truly incredible.

One more thing Paul, don't quite understand your comment about being named after a boulevard?
That would mean your name is connected with cement and a median, right?

Paul it is what we do in this lifetime that counts not what was done by others in their lifetime.

Everyone has towns and boulevards named after them not a big deal.

I feel so sorry for people like yourself, and I know a few, life is mean't to be happy and enjoyed not being mean and hateful.

Are you sure you aren't being paid to be so mean?

"Cindy was a liar from the beginning."

How fucking dare you, Paul...I allow you to say whever the fuck you wish here, but you will NOT use this as a forum to spread your lies. Unless you have any information to back up that statement, I suggest you show some self-respect and retract it immediately.

Camp Casey was TEMPORARY!!!!!!

Uh, Paul...I was there. I know what the plans were. You do not. You're an ass. But apparently everyone else has broken that news to you first.

We see that her family disavowed her

Paul, do you *really* want to get into matters of family disavowal here?...I'd suggest you knock it off. If you think I'm kidding, please test me.

Check with your Christ God or Family or Conscience (if you still have a shred of one left) before you make your next post here, my friend.

Which is it bash the President for not sending in the troops fast enough or bash him because they were sent there. bash bash bash. Have you guys heard the children’s story about the little boy that cried wolf? That is why no one takes this stuff or you guys seriously, and the wolves keep gobbling you up. Maybe she wanted a platoon of the Old Guard to stay at camp casey and guard her son’s boots?

Cindy said:
I don’t care if a human being is black, brown, white, yellow or pink. I don’t care if a human being is Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, or pagan. I don’t care what flag a person salutes: if a human being is hungry, then it is up to another human being to feed him/her. George Bush needs to stop talking, admit the mistakes of his all around failed administration, pull our troops out of occupied New Orleans and Iraq,

"her son would have been pissed..." now the troll speaks for the dead, and claims to know more than the soldiers own mother. he has no soul, just like the thief, ugly and cowardly, just 'taking out the garbage'. No respect for the sacrifices.

Paul is a soulless nothing, like his president.

Brad are you sure Paul say's he is a Christian?

No way, because if I remember right from my Sunday school days, Christians, help the beggers on the side of the road, give up their own material things for those less fortunate, and if you look at what the Bible says about Jesus, wouldn't Jesus be considered a (do I dare say it ? ) a LIBERAL Oh my gosh !!!

And what about the saying "let one of you without sin be the first to cast a stone."
Isn't that from the Bible that Christians read?

Just looking for some information on the rules for being a Christian. Help me out folks.

Now Nana, we know that good Christians would never say unkind, mean natured downright UGLY comments about their fellow mankind.

Don't we? maybe not.

I don't know the exact quote, but I like this one;

"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter heaven"

Ha! You should hear the excuses they come up with for that one!

"Jews are Gods chosen people"
oh wait that's in the Qur'an.

You are right, Texaslady, Christ was a peacemaker, who cared for the sick and poor. these people have made this stuff up, as they go along. Man-made holiness. I'm surprised more from the Christian faith do not speak up, and correct them. They put the good Christian people in a poor light.

Nana, see that would never work with the Paul and NCOCDR group because they think money will buy anything, but sure doesn't seem to be buying happiness for them.

Never knew a mean spirited person who was happy with themself.

Nana, Bill Maher is on tonight here, hope it is as great as last week. When is he on in Florida ?
Did I mention I lived in Kississimee/Orlando for two years absolutely loved it ! That was before it was so built up. Always go back every two years to see friends. Good people in Florida.

Is that Paul SIMPLETON Blvd in Dallas?

HCOCDR,

You really don't have a clue what you're talking about do you? Are you and Paul, by any chance, in the age group where you could sign up for the military? Or perhaps you've worked into your elder years to develop such ignorant and callous attitudes? If so, then encourage your children or grandchildren to sign up since you are such loyal Bushitters.

Paul said: "Did you hear the people in the Astrodome blame the Mayor for the problems and they praised Bush and believe his speech last night? The MSM was not happy with their answers."

A difference of opinion here:

Viewers skeptical of Bush

Thanks for reminding me about Bill Maher, I don't know the schedule, but my son will find it for me.

Yes there was a time when Florida was a paradise, that has changed , but not the people. Kississimee is beautiful, I love to hear people from out of town pronounce it! (kissy me)

Thanks Texaslady, for all you do.

> Excuse me Paul, so you knew Casey Sheehan and had a conversation with him, and Casey said he wanted his mom to just cry quietly in the corner?

Ah...he reinlisted.

Well that's it...

"George Bush needs to stop talking, admit the mistakes of his all around failed administration, pull our troops out of occupied New Orleans and Iraq,"

Occupied New Orleans... this lady has lost her mind and has well and truly "jumped the shark"

High five to you Nana ! Good one !

chembob - HCOCDR is a 'troop' (his word I swear)
in Iraq where the soldiers aren't getting killed anymore, just reading and relaxing and Iraqi's are giving them flowers. I swear those are his words from an early post.

And the 14 soldiers that have lost their lives since Sept 1 is just a made up story.

Or today the 6,000 US soldiers aren't laying seige to the city of Tal-Afar in northern Iraq for the last several days. Should I mention most of the insurgents have left so only Iraqi families are left to bake in inferno heat with no water or food.
Sure sounds familiar doesn't it?

Read Dahr Jamail's Iraq Dispatches for the whole story....he is actually there.

You liberal dumbasses crack me up. Cindy Sheehan is a fucking retard and so are you. Be careful, Karl Rove might send a hurricane to your state.

In response to #22

2004

"'I now know he's sincere about wanting freedom for the Iraqis,' Cindy said after their meeting. 'I know he's sorry and feels some pain for our loss. And I know he's a man of faith.'

"The meeting didn't last long, but in their time with Bush, Cindy spoke about Casey and asked the president to make her son's sacrifice count for something. They also spoke of their faith.

2005

“Every time we tried to talk about Casey and how much we missed him, he would change the subject. And he acted like it was a party.”

Cindy Sheehan is a Grief Pimp. Her 15 min. are up. She would probably have to set herself on fire to get any press (something im sure she has considered).

Clembob,

I am kicked back in my CHU (Containerized Housing Unit) enjoying a bit of bloging before I turn off the Halliburton provided electricity and continue tomorrow another day of defending you freedoms on the frontiers of democracy somewhere in the Diyala Province in Iraq.

You can find me in some of these photos

http://images.278acr.com/thumbnails.php?album=4

y'all bite me

Seems just to me !

Hey Larry, you ain't half the man your mama was and I'll kick yer butt-ocks in a lubbock minute you little punk

You folks watch to much CNN, there are bad people here in Iraq but thats like saying the entire USA is like the folks that shot at the choppers in NO or the people that hacked to death others in the superdome or convention center. There are good hard working people here that need our help to stop this country from being a safehaven for the takfurist.

HCOCDR,

I'm not convinced. Prove it. Tell me which of these pictures contains your picture and your name or handle. I don't have time to look through them all.

If you are truly in Iraq then you are much more a person of your convictions than most of the others with your belief. And, if so, I know you had to do what your Commander in Chief ordered you to do. But, unfortunately, your CIF is a fool who is being played by neocon empire-builders and has put your ass in harms way for a fantasy world that they've dreamed up that will never actually exist except in their own deluded minds.

Have you seen Osama, btw?

You screwball leftists amount to the biggest freak show since PT Barnum setup shop. Get a clue, you've lost every congressional election since 1994, doesn't that tell you something. The American People don't trust you at the helm of this country. But hey, you guys can always go live on Louis Farrakahns big wheel in the sky.

"defending you freedoms on the frontiers of democracy somewhere in the Diyala Province in Iraq"

My freedoms are not at risk, in Iraq.

My thoughtful answer to Mrs. Sheehan:
http://lordofswans.blogspot.com

Mike,

Hey, from one screwball to another: I didn't lose the 2000 election. I stupidly voted for the moron in chief. I quickly realized my mistake and voted against him the second time. My fear about him running this country is that I'm concerned there won't be much left of it by the next Presidential election in 2008.

I guarantee you, if the DemoDinos would show some guts and speak up for progressive concepts and simple LOGIC, they could control both houses and the Presidency (although I don't typically want any one party to control everything). This country is fed up, or haven't you noticed?

Tex lady,

Yes even some of the bushbashers have migrated to Iraq but they very seldom venture outside the greenzone when they do they are only looking for the failers to write about we had one with us for a few days from the Village Voice in NY you should have read the lies he printed. If you want to read some real stories you might want to see Michael Yon’s Blog at:

http://mikeyonopenforum.blogspot.com/

or

By Lee Pitts at

http://www.timesfreepress.com/iwwl/index.asp

HCOCDR,

Awesome!!! Way to put those liberal losers in their place. Keep up the good work over there! Real Americans support what you are doing over there, liberals are still fighting (and losing) the 2000 election.

Have you seen Osama, btw?

We haven't been looking for him for as long as Hillary was looking for those Rose law firm billing records. Nite all.

Cindy's popular political perch on top the body of a dead son, a RE-ENLISTED fallen soldier-son, is shocking to me. Her arguement was with him and she lost. She appears to count the death of her son not as a loss, but a prop for herself to spew her shrill marxist hatred for this president and our country.

You all would rather listen to the oily discharge from the Mickeal Moore's and Cindy Sheehans of the world than to actually form your own ideas and opinions while you hide behind the freedoms you enjoy and try to remove from others. You make me SICK!!

Christ did say to help those in need of help, but not to one's own detriment. He also leaves it to you to decide. Never did he say it was a sin to have money, just implied that if one loves it more than one loves their neighbor or God, they are in sin.

When you have given all of yours to those who need it more (and I will decide who that is, since you feel like deciding for me) you can speak again. Until then, SIT DOWN AND SHUT THE CRAP UP!!

Why do you Bushitters want a totalitarian state? Is it because you need a Daddy figure? Someone to tell you what to do and how to behave 24/7 ?

You are being used as pawns in a ruthless game of removing all your (our) rights and liberties, with the ultimate goal of your masters being the shredding of the Constitution and a return to the days of the robber baron corporations. Unless you are extremely wealthy (and even then, eventually) you are going to be big losers in this game. It is as obvious as anything could possibly be and yet you still espouse the party line like lobotomized monkeys. Go read some books, please.

Hmmm, You compared possibly the most destructive, dangerous human being alive with...

A Politician!

That is weak.

Rita,

It is honorable to be in the armed services. It is corrupt for a President to cost a soldier his life for a war based on lies that the President knew were lies. The proof is there, go read about it. This is the same President whose administration outed a CIA agent dealing with uranium movement between nations, during a time of war, for nothing more than to punish her husband for pointing out the lies. It is corruption to the core and it is a sad time for our great Nation.

Look, don't lecture "Bush-hitters" on totalitarianism.
Some of the thinking here from your pals invented it. Have a great day. Brave men have handed it to you. See The Great Raid.

ChemBob;

Try again. Look it over. The outing was done by the Liberally biased media that you are so fond of.

Take the beam out of your own eye before looking for motes in other's!

Wow... I'm just taken aback by how many dittoheads actually make the time to come here and read everything we write - kinda gives ya the warm fuzzies, doesn't it?

If we didn't matter, they wouldn't mind so much.

Thanks for stoppin by y'all, it's a good sign.

Dear POL,

Let's just see what the indictments say then, shall we? It shouldn't be too much longer now. It was likely either Rove or Libbey who revealed the information to Novak who then spilled the beans in the media. Robert Novak is "liberally biased media?" What the hell are you smoking? He is one of the biggest Republican pushers in the entire MSM.

Dear Brighteyes,

Yes, they're making me feel good about myself when I should be working (self-employed so I'm not ripping off an employer). It's kind of fun baiting them in a way because they have no actual, supportable, documentary facts on their side and, deep down, they know it. The failure of their beloved administration surrounds us on virtually every front. They just can't do what I did and admit their mistake in ever supporting this Rethuglican cabal.

Welcome to all the Lucianne Goldberg fans! Nice to see you come by and get a bit of *actual* truth along with your Goldberg.

Paul - I asked you to show me a lie from Cindy Sheehan. You failed to. If you had an ounce of self-respect (and I have no reason to believe you do), you will retract your disgusting, unsupported horseshit immediately. Have a feeling I'll be waiting a while for that since you come from Bush World, where nobody takes responsibility for anything...other than momentarily...when forced...once every five years.

Chembob,

The "outing" of which you speak is so "yesterday". Surely you jest.

We all know that the husband of the CIA "agent",
( translation: desk jockey in her case ), outed his own wife in an interview months before to puff up his own self-importance.

Oh dear. I guess 'Brother Loves Travellin' Salvation Show' has come to town!

Come to attack a grieving mother, good thing stoning is illegal! How dare she be a victim of theft.

Hey Chembob, Do you really think that anyone believes you voted for President Bush in 2000? OK, OK, for the sake of argument lets say you did , for what reason. Was it his progressive policies (hahaha), his haircut, or the fact that Albert Gore is an idiot. Its going to be fun watching your girl Hillary go down in flames in 08. Almost as much fun as watching the implosion of your hero John Kerry, you know, the guy that served in Vietnam. Well , I've got to go, big meeting with my associates at Diebold. We've invented a new machine that dispenses cash if you vote Republican, we expect it to be a major success.

Rita,

Where do you get your information? Back it up with a link where you can show me that he referred to her by her name, company and occupation. And I don't mean something from your media Gods, such as O'Reilly, something real please with real documentation.

FYI, you endearing person you, many many CIA agents report for work in an office building. Hey, come to think of it, FBI agents report for work in an office building too! Wow, imagine that! Hey wait a minute...where do Generals report for work?..Wow, another office building! You must be a genius for pointing this out to us.

So it's "old news" if it happened two years ago in the Bush administration but you Bushitters still go on and on about Clinton's blowjob lie?

Chemical Ali,

Caring so little about Valerie Plame's husband and his fuming is part of my problem. The other part is I can't remember the link. Maybe Newsmax, but you can do your own homework. Besides you don't really care anyway, as I am certain you will be leaving your post shortly to go look for Cindy's boots.

Mike,

I've voted for Republicans a few times and I did vote for Bush the first time. I consider myself an independent. I probably wasn't paying enough attention in 2000 and bought into the Rovian bullshit that was smeared on Gore (as it was on a John Kerry during 2004). I knew better the second time, the scales had dropped from my eyes.

FYI, I'm not a fan of Hilary Clinton and I'm pretty confident that Democrats cannot win the Presidency if she is the candidate. IMHO she is a perfect example of what is wrong with the Democratic Party. I'd like to see someone who isn't afraid to speak up for moving this country forward into the future rather than marching us into the new dark ages at a slightly slower pace than the neocons (who think they are moving forward btw).

Scout, Paul, Mike, Rita, and Larry- I mean Moe.

You all are fucking clueless idiots. I've never seen such inane dribble in my entire life, and I've seen it all.

" I've lived here for 45 years."

Yeah, right. And my name is Betty Crocker. Your level of spew and bullshit tells me you've only lived there in Texas for about 18 years.

Talk about maturity? You moronic ditto-heads have the maturity of a displaced type-writer still going on and on....after the father told them to shut up.

And you should be ashamed of your two-year old pig headed brains, for actually defaming someone who's son bravely died in a war you idiots from the rich-white country clubs won't even FIGHT in.

You absolutely, time and time again prove your solitary dietary regimen to smear, and be stupid and basically hang your hat on the likes of Rush Limbaugh. Your racist, backhanded bullshit tough talk is only suitable in a retro-fitted prison. It won't fly here in America.

So sit down, shut up or ship off to Iraq already and do something productive. I'm sick of the "whining" about liberals. 90% of us out here, are independants moron and we're sick of your stupidity.

And by the way, get off your high horse. Casey Sheehan presented more bravery and courage than all of you will ever present in your miserable, dittohead lives. He deserves to be commended, and not slammed. And further none of his belongings should be touched- He's a proud serving member of our military. Not of the lunkheads who can do nothing but spit bullshit, and claim they support the troops when they only support their own bank accounts.

Now if you exscuse me, I have to get ready to wash my hands from reading all this garbage. And then go prepare for a real workout instead of a mouth workout.

RF

Rita,

The typical response for a Bushitter..."uhhh, I had the link here somewhere...uh go do your homework...uhhh maybe I dreamed it up but I don't want to admit it....duuuuh"

I don't need to do my homework Rita, you do. I've been keeping up. Caring about her husband is not the primary issue here. Can't you see that? An entire CIA covert operation and front organization (Company) was revealed by your heroes in the White House.

I don't much care about Cindy's boots either; much more about our troops who are still in harm's way fighting for a neocon fantasy and the destruction and bankruptcy that this stupidity is raining down upon our entire country. Bush has done more damage to this country than any terrorist organization could ever have dreamed up.

Brad,

Cindy is one of the biggest liars around. If she just wanted to "talk" to Bush, why was her trip to Texas hailed as the "Impeachment Tour"???

Cindy also said that Bush was playing golf when Katrina struck. Can anyone back up her claim??? I'm really tired of liberal lies.... the levees where blown up by the government, Bush has a weather machine, Bush and the CIA were behind 911, Bush had Wellstone killed, Bush was trying to assasinate that Italian reporter.

Republicans scorn our fruitcakes (Robertson). Liberals embrace theirs.

Good God Nuclear, where do you get your news about what Cindy said or these liberal lies? It wouldn't be from Bill O'Reilly or DrugRush Limbaugh by any chance, would it?

Oh, btw, Bush was eating cake with John McCain (not playing golf) and then strumming guitar with some picker (the next day I think) while people drowned in New Orleans. I'll give him credit, he wasn't playing golf or picking out shoes in New York with Condi. Why as soon as his staff made him a DVD of the news reports (Thursday I think it was) he got right on the job!

And nuclear, you are incorrect Cindy was on an impeachment tour.

The veterans for peace who rents and owns the bus sprays impeachment on the buses, and they have been doing the impeachment tours for a while.

It is not Cindy sheehan she doesn't own any of that. And likewise it is neccesary to impeach the presidency if it has lied us into war based on profit, as the downing street minutes point out.

RF

Someone probably was just cleaning up the garbage in the ditch. I mean, did Cindy buy the land where the ditch is located? No? Then she has no reason to complain. It wasn't her ditch. Anything she left there unattended was fair game.

Wow Running Free, you sure did use alot of bandwidth to say absolutely nothing. I'll bet you use the low impact workout method, a bong waterpipe in endless repetition.

> " I've lived here for 45 years."
Yeah, right. And my name is Betty Crocker. Your level of spew and bullshit tells me you've only lived there in Texas for about 18 years.

Yes - I have been here 45 years and am 45.

Born in Dallas, lived a little while in El Paso, then back to Dallas.

Saw in 1980 the entire south go from Democrat to Republican thanks to Carter/Reagan. Don't forget - red states!

Democrats are the new plantation owners. not the south. Loved the lady on Rush the other day who said she left "that plantation a long time ago."

Boy, did I open a can of worms!

You know, I'm betting Cindy and her supporters left the site unattended knowing that this would probably happen. Yep. Just another publicity stunt on her part.

Hey, did you all see Mother Sheehan's latest lunacy? She wants the troops out of "occupied New Orleans." I tell you, guys, this woman always makes me laugh when she's whoring for headlines.

LOL Paul, you ARE a can of worms!

Nunov,

When did rows of white crosses with dead soldiers names on them become garbage? People don't normally desecrate roadside crosses that are on the sites of accidents, why should they vandalize these other than for a political statement for you and those of your lumbering IQ levels. Oh you Bushitter Limbowelers are great moral Christian conservatives, one and all. Jesus would be so proud of you and your good works. Perhaps you should actually go and read the Bible. Then read the Torah and the Quar'an and the Tao te Ching and the writings of the Buddha and the Bhagavad Gita. I'd bet few of you have read any of these but you listen to right wing talk radio drivel all day long and let your minds be sucked into the sump pump of depraved facist sludge. Go read. Please. Then come back here and talk.

Again and again it seems that this blog just drives Bush supporters to a red rage - but why? Why are you so upset about a woman who is saying her opinion, Cindy Sheehan ?

If you think she is full of hot air, her words should blow right over your head. Yet you all just come unglued !

She is not asking you to agree with her, she is not asking for your money, she is paying her own way.
She is not cursing, she is peacefully protesting.

And until more of our Privacy is taken away, that is still lawful.

But the strong supporters who are not just cowards, ask yourself, where are the Bush, Cheney children in the Nobel Cause. Can my life be worth less than theirs?

Texaslady,

They are enraged because they put all their eggs into the GWB basket and their choice of Easter Bunny started slinging the eggs everywhere, broke them, and can't even create scrambled eggs from the result.

I'm guessing they were all posting on company time too; it's gotten very quiet here in this blog since closing time.

I'm constantly hoping that persistence in logic and real data sources will wake some of them up, but I've always been too idealistic and optimistic about others.

Hey Paul. Answer Brad's question about backing up with proof your accusations about Cindy. Put up or shut up.

This thread has the most trolls of any thread that I can remember.

I understand you hate Cindy, but how can you not be apalled that Casey's boots were fucking stollen!

If you do think that was wrong, you should at least say that first.

If my son is killed in Irag and someone stold his boots, I'd fucking kill them.

I'm so mad I'm crying now.

Chickenhawks.

I believe in spiritual evolution.....wow, after reading all of this I can only shake my head at those that still follow the Old Testament teachings. I see no evidence that any of the 'Christians' have any idea about the New Testament. Old souls and young souls, it is so easy to see who is who and who is where. Do the unenlightened realize they are standing naked in front of those on this blog (and the world)? I am sure they don't. God Save America.

Chembob,

"Good God Nuclear, where do you get your news about what Cindy said or these liberal lies? It wouldn't be from Bill O'Reilly or DrugRush Limbaugh by any chance, would it?"

Well, how about this one: While George golfed yesterday, the worst hurricane ever struck New Orleans

http://www.huffingtonpos...rawford-but-_b_6451.html

Argueing with liberals is like shooting fish in a barrel. It's too damn easy.

Well, I'm learning more about the people blogging here as I read. Why is it stories/postings about Cindy bring out so many hateful people?

I think it's because Cindy, in a nut shell, says we're tired of the silence and we deserve some answers. Simple as that.

I don't believe in everything she has said and done, but until you lose a child in Iraq, I don't think you should be so judgemental and such asses. You can't say what you might do when your heart is ripped out in that way.

I'm to the point of reading everything possible, because my son is ready to go back for his second full year there. I have already been through one year of hell worrying about him and wanting answers myself. Maybe that's why I understand where she could be coming from. I guess that's what has driven me to blogging now...looking for answers, and maybe some hope.

You people who make it all left/right just don't get it. She doesn't give a rats ass if he's republican or democrat, she's a mother wanting some NEW answers, since there were NEW things that had come to light since she last chatted with him. DSM mainly, I'm sure. That's why he wouldn't see her. Someday the silence will be broken by someone who decides an entire nation is worth more than the cash in their bank account. Anyone???? Please????

You are so disturbed to be attacking Cindy Sheehan (who was right about him golfing, btw) while defending the lying traitor who occupies the White House. He was at a golf club that day and later in the week he ate cake with John McCain and played guitar while people died in both Iraq and New Orleans.

http://thinkprogress.org...-struck-bush-vacationed/

Dear Concerned,

I wish the best for you and your son. My son was in the 82nd Airborne and in Ranger training. He suffered a severe knee injury during training and was discharged just a few months before Iraq got going. I admit that I'm glad he was injured just enough to not have to fight in this misled war, even though he was upset that he couldn't go with his buddies. I can't imagine what you are going through or how I would be suffering if he was there now.

I think these trolls are among the 1% who think the federal government acted too quickly in New Orleans. They all need to ask Condi for a potty break.

Chembob Square Pants,

Here's another liberal lie from A member of Cindy Sheehan's legal team and Veterans For Peace fundraiser, Andrea Garland
http://getyouracton.com/blog/?p=63

"Unfortunately, we have learned that the reason our part of the neighborhood flooded was not due to the hurricane, but rather to a misguided effort on the part of our government. Fearing that the flood waters would invade Uptown New Orleans (the wealthy, white part of town), they dynamited another hole in the levy on our side to let flood waters in there and keeping them away from Uptown. Apparently they over did it with the dynamite."

And you wonder why we don't take liberals seriously???

Why isn't this guy fighting for freedom in Iraq?
Associated press
Austin Texas-John Ellis Bush, 21, was arrested Friday for public intoxication.

ChemBob - Thank you so much for the support. I hope your son has healed and is doing okay. I know what you mean about him wanting to be with his buddies. They are family. They go through things together that we've never dreamed of, the bonds will be lifetime for many.

My son was right in Ramadi and Fallujah, so he went through some ugly days and nights. It's not a pretty place. Sure hope they all stay safe tonight....

#73 nukulur chemist

Well --- geedub was definitely at the Pueblo El Mirage RV and Golf Resort in El Mirage, Ariz. on August 30, 2005. Did he sneak in a round or 2 of golf? Maybe. Can you prove he didn't?

Anyway, pushing his drug plan to a group of Sr. Citizens was waaayy more important than attending to the starving, dehydrating citizens of Louisiana. And way more important than making sure there was electricity, food, water, and air-lift rescue for the Sr. Citizens in hospitals there in Louisiana.

Remember --- george w bush made the Federal Government responsible on August 27th when he declared a federal emergency in Louisiana. Therefore, he should have been overseeing his people to make damn sure things were working right. Instead, he hop-scotched merrily away from his responsibilities ... had his cake and ate it too.

He's a f***ing LOSER and as much of a worm as you cretins are who migrated here from rush's limpbowels and other rightwing slop sites. Too disgusting for words. There's a SPECIAL place in Hell for ya, though!

Nuclear, the problem is you taking yourselves too seriously, not so much not taking liberals seriously.

I showed you how you were wrong once already, you caddy boy for GWB. I've no idea what went on in NO at the levees and neither do you. I heard those rumors and I don't want to believe them; I've seen no evidence other than that people claim they saw men at the levees and heard explosions. Having said that, I'd put very little past people who try to launch smear campaigns against grieving mothers and think the sawbucks they have in their wallets are more important than pretty much anything else.

Grow some morals. Let your anger for a grieving mother and liberals go. Your cronies control Congress, the Presidency and the Supreme Court yet you lackies continue to cry and whine. On second thought just grow up period.

Paul---I have been sittingon the fence trying to decide whether to make an effort to go to DC next weekend. After reading your postings along with all the other loony tune Bush supporters I have made up my mind. Not only am I gonna make the trip I am now on the phone actively recruiting others to join. Cindy has a right to protest, she scares the fuck out of you and your kind because she has gotten momentum going. People have been waiting for a rallying point and you know in your little mind this is it. Why are the approval ratings so low? You still have time to save your little texas soul and jump ship. I cannot believe you are proud of your track record of executing people. I hope to hell you stay in Texas, maybe your ancestors did someting good for people to have a street named after your family. I know for sure it was not you and your narrow mindedness. And yeah you can call me a leftist because I think you are an idiot.

I think Bushco's guitar photo-op 2 days after Katrina hit was a "finger" to critics. A "finger" to NOLA.

He then waited another day (Wednesday at 5:00 pm) to give his Rose Garden speech.

Nice trolls ya got here, Brad-man! Good work

Mike aka Nuclear,

You have got to be the biggest moron I've ever seen. Your talking points don't make a shit of sense, your breath stinks of Rush Limbaughlls and basically all you do is come to a website you hate to attack Cindy Sheehan.

That tells me she has beaten you to a bloody pulp. You can't deal with her, you can't deal with the truth. While your little man George goes on potty breaks, the rest of America is fed up and waking up. And its going to take out trash like you with it, if you keep defaming public servants.

Casey Sheehan was a public servant. Agree with his mother or not, you should be shamed to hell for acting like five year olds and blasting Casey. Leave their story alone, and go fight in Iraq.

Oh I forgot, its not a noble cause..Not a noble cause at all.

W-tenacious

I must say this has been very entertaining though. It seems you believe that "Cindy" doesn't own any part of the ditches.....so therefore you and a bunch of hillbillies can go ransack the whole place and steal everything.

Well let me see.....Is that car over there in the parking lot, not owned by you either? Or how about that proud looking trailer that's in your driveway ditch....That isn't owned by you either, I suppose.

I'm sorry, but it doesn't even take a ten year old to figure out being a grave-robber is illegal. If you steal things from a burial site or sacred ground, that is publically owned, you're busted. In fact, if you steal things from any graveyard you are busted.

When you break the law you pay the price, that is unless you have billions and are named Bush.
Kudos.
W-tenacious

Cindy Sheehan should go to NOLA and volunteer to be a replacement levee

I'm sick of arguing with you trolls. Screw you Darnelle and the 70 IQ with which you logged in.

Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation

snippets from link above---

2. Become incredulous and indignant. Avoid discussing key issues and instead focus on side issues which can be used show the topic as being critical of some otherwise sacrosanct group or theme. This is also known as the "How dare you!" gambit.

5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule.. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as "kooks", "right-wing", "liberal", "left-wing", "terrorists", "conspiracy buffs", "radicals", "militia", "racists", "religious fanatics", "sexual deviates", and so forth.

6. Hit and Run. In any public forum, make a brief attack of your opponent or the opponent position and then scamper off before an answer can be fielded, or simply ignore any answer.

17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable topic..

18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can't do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their material somewhat less coherent.

20. False evidence. Whenever possible, introduce new facts or clues designed and manufactured to conflict with opponent presentations as useful tools to neutralize sensitive issues or impede resolution.

-----more at link

One more thing #73 (who said Republicans scorn Pat Robertson) hahahahahah!!!!! Jeez Louise, Nukuler. You sure don't keep up much, do you? bu$h and his kristian koalition brothers are still fondling each other - but just not as openly as they once did.

Bush, Pat Robertson & ‘Operation Blessing’

[snip] George Bush can let Black people drown in New Orleans but he won’t denounce Pat Robertson. He needs him too much.

In the wake of a storm of criticism for his handling of the hurricane and flood, Bush is more dependent on the millionaire televangelist than ever. Never has an event more exposed the utter contempt the capitalist government has for the lives of poor people in the United States.

When he’s not attacking gay rights, Robert son is promoting terrorism. He recently called for assassinating Vene zuela’s elected president, Hugo Chávez, on his “700 Club” television show. However, this hasn’t prevented the Federal Emer gency Management Admini stration (FEMA) from urging people to give money to Robertson’s Operation Blessing.

FEMA has actually put this outfit third on a list of places to receive donations to help Gulf Coast survivors. Will the homeless Black people of the Gulf see any of the money scooped up by Operation Blessing? Or will it be spent on defaming the popular leader of Venezuela’s poor people, who has generously offered New Orleans $120 million in aid?

Robertson may sound like a kook but he presides over a media empire with assets estimated at $200 million. Supporters of Robertson’s Christian Coalition do political dirty work for Bush. [snip]

Also:
With the Bush Administration's approval, Robertson's $66 million relief organization, Operation Blessing, has been prominently featured on FEMA's list of charitable groups. **MORE**

"Cindy Sheehan should go to NOLA and volunteer to be a replacement levee"

When we were about to liberate Iraq a lot of libs like Cindy wanted to come over and be human shields to protect the children of Iraq from Americans killing them. But with their words here and the encouragement of our abandonment of them, they are wanting them to die. Why want they come over now and stand between them and the car bombers and takfuriest. It’s because they are hypocrites and know in their heart that the American Commanders would never attack schools or hospitals with children in them, they only wanting to make a statement to embarrass America and our President or they would be lining the streets of Baghdad to protect the children of Iraq from the takfuriest bombs, if they really cared about them.

When has Cindy Sheehan ever said a word about being a human shield or accused American commanders of attacking schools?

Vertically speaking

Give TexASS back to Mexico &

as a BONUS they get the Shitbag Bushs

as well as more of their ILK.

Relating to my comment to #89's plea:
"Someday the silence will be broken by someone who decides an entire nation is worth more
than the cash in their bank account. Anyone???? Please????"

For a more definitive link to "Clinton Gathers World Leaders" (which is relevant):

www.washingtonpost.com

The Fake DSM Memo's ha! That did not work with the National Guard Memo's and you had Dan Rather pushing those. What makes you think John Conyers will give more creditability by pushing them

Someone should do a study on troll response to specific issues. That way we could tell when we're getting warmer... I surmise that this thread got inundated with foul sludgewater trolls precisely because the matter of Cindy is one of their hottest buttons. KKK Rogue and his buddies must be very nervous indeed about September 24 and all the associated activities and questions. To top it off, they really don't want that many witnesses around if and when Fitzgerald has indictments and arrest warrants served on them by US Marshals. Little wonder this particular thread has become so infested by vermin. I usually advise against feeding the slugs, but this time around it's kind of fun. Feeling the heat yet Paul et al.? You're behaving like a bunch of accessories after the fact at best. Please, for your own good, wake up before it's really too late. Plenty of room under the Camp Casey tent. Love and Peace

Bob in Prague

Jen - Good for you. I hope the media covers the events of the day in a "fair and balanced" way. I would be there if I could, trust me, but I can't possibly make it. I will, however, be looking out for any local events, running in conjunction with you guys marching. Good luck.

"Cindy Sheehan should go to NOLA and volunteer to be a replacement levee" - Sad that people like you exist, Darnelle. Did you get a true rush of satisfaction when you hit the submit button, or just looking for people to tell you what an ass you are? You're an ass, guessing it's the second choice.

I'm telling ya,

"The new Fascism thats coming is not going to be brown shirts and jack boots, its going to be smiley face tee shirts and nike sneakers" (made in communist China)

George Carlin

Lindy - Thank you for the link. That's the smartest I've ever heard Clinton sound. lol Why is it he can see and admit the fraud in the rich getting richer, and how it's hurting the nation, but nobody else in Washington can admit it? Oh yeh, they're busy getting rich, silly question.

I long for the days of him and Monica walking the WH halls. Yes, he cheated on his wife, made some bad decisions and didn't do everything perfect, but damnitt - he was content to be the President of the United States! He didn't have this President of the World mentatlity that exists now. He knew the meaning of the word "budget" - or at least better than most. He held some respect for our country, founding fathers and all the generations before us.

I feel there are good and bad people in all parties. I have always voted for people, based on their records, platforms and agendas. I don't blindly punch a button because a D, R or I preceeds their name. That's being pretty blind, isn't it? Both major parties have people go left or right of the "norm" - you have to know the people. Course voting is a thing of the past, so it's sorta moot talking about it now. Diebold and the current administration made sure of that. Make sure you read Brad's story on that!

We've all been so busy going left or right.....we haven't made any progress forward. Cindy, Jen and hopefully a shitload of other people are going to start that progression forward next week.

As long as the profit from Communist China keeps pouring in, virtually duty free ,tax free (on the backs of slave labor, that used to be good paying jobs in the US), we will never beat the neo-con slime machine, too many people fighting amongst each other do not see the real agenda here
Divide and conquer
Now thats the real agenda, take your eye off the ball,
the 1%ers are laughing all the way to the bank, while us serfs work for less and less

Buy American while you still can

If my son is killed in Irag and someone stold his boots, I'd fucking kill them.

I'm so mad I'm crying now.

I am truly sorry you are crying. No joke but in the American sprit of compromise, I do have a better idea. Why did Cindy allow Casey to be buried in Arlington when she wanted his memorial to be beside a ditch near George Bush’s Ranch with his boots as an epitaph? She could have him dug up and buried in the ditch if she wants. We are wasting a lot of tax dollars for our monuments and national cemeteries why don’t we just give the bodies of the Troops killed in Iraq to their Moms to bury in a ditch. Then we would not need to take back the Clinton recession busting, economy stimulating tax cuts of the President

HDCOR,

Seriously, seek some help. Your last comment about burying Casey in the ditch is beyond blindness, it is some sort of mental illness crying out for help. There is no logic there, nothing to refute, impossible to respond to by anyone using logic and facts until one realizes it is the result of mental illness. If someone on here has a better idea of why anyone would say something like you did, I'd like to hear it.

> Hey Paul. Answer Brad's question about backing up with proof your accusations about Cindy. Put up or shut up.

I already did - see #39

> After reading your postings along with all the other loony tune Bush supporters I have made up my mind. Not only am I gonna make the trip I am now on the phone actively recruiting others to join.

That's great! Spend lots of money in DC, you know, trickle down economics (Reaganomics) - it works every time.

I once read on this blog that the "Repugs" are "mad" because someone is telling the truth. Well, people also get "mad" when someone is not telling the truth. I love seeing nuts go nuts!

you fucking libtards just don't get it. If her son's boots were so important why did she fucking leave them lying in a ditch? I truly believe she really doesn't care that much about her son. This all politics.

Hey leftists, here is something you will really enjoy. You have two days to check it out.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/e...3&fromMakeTrack=true

As far as the boots are concerned, even if all of the crosses were still there, a major rain storm, a wild animal, any number of things like that could make those boots disappear. Nothing lasts forever!

re#104: if you're a wiberal you're not man enough

What's the big deal about Casey Sheehan anyway. Isn't he just a murdering, fascist, imperialist baby killer who got what he deseved. He volunteeered to be trained as a running dog assassin for the ruling classes - twice. He even volunteered to go murder iraqi kids and rape their ugly women on the day he was killed. Y'all should be happy that a freedom fighter ended his murderous life.

Or, on the other hand, you could stop being whiney liberals.

Todays slogans are:

1) Dykes will save NOLA
2) NO BLOOD FOR GUMBO

Have a nice tantrun.

-dj

{ed note: “Darnelle” aka Rev Goober T. Bass/Mullah Gomer/geeter/Old Jones/bonczaar/Cletus/Junior Johnson/mary beth” --- Deleted due to repeated, flagrant violations of the very few rules we have here: Insulting other commenters, posting under different names, etc.}

In other words clembob, cindy has no respect for the troops fighting in Iraq or of the others that gave their lives by making her own memorial in a ditch as a protest. She thumbs her nose at the true memorials our tax dollars are paying for. Do what she wants with her son's, but the others have earned her and everybody else's respect. I for one support the removal. You have to pass laws and get permission to put crosses where people are killed in auto accidents on the right of ways in the US. I doubt she had ether. If she did not it was just as unlawful for them to have been there.

Paul - you've never been mislead by someone and then changed your viewpoint about something when you find out some disturbing facts and that someone's lied to your face about the whole thing? No? Well, then you have had a special life, huh?

Why do you angry people come in here and just name call and spew crapola without ANY facts to back them up? You can't carry on an intelligent debate over this stuff, because you have no legs to stand on, so you get angry and hateful. Grow up.

HDCOR - you're really sick. Get help now.

#126 You need to re read it is the Bush supporters with the illiterate trash talk...

Ho Commander - You're the stench that's called the City of New Orleans, you'll be decomposed before the day is done...

> Paul - you've never been mislead by someone and then changed your viewpoint about something when you find out some disturbing facts and that someone's lied to your face about the whole thing? No? Well, then you have had a special life, huh?

You are wrong. I exposed someone as a phony and it ended up in the Dallas Morning News.
Good try though!

www.tennessean.com

“Cindy Sheehan has received a lot of publicity and accolades for her protest outside President Bush's ranch about the war in Iraq. Now, the Gold Star mother has taken her cause on the road, and all sorts of celebrities and supporters have been attracted to her.
Yet the unfortunate side of her crusade is that what her son believed and died for has been obscured. Most Gold Star families do not seek such a spotlight. Their existence is a quiet, day-to-day struggle of surviving personally and honoring publicly what their loved ones believed and were willing to die for. It's not about agreeing with the war and the president. It's about sticking by the decision of your children, respecting their idealism and cherishing their heroics. And yes, there have been heroics in Iraq and Afghanistan. The good being done by our men and women have fed their idealism. There is nothing like bringing liberty to another people. That good must not be lost.”

America has a long history of spreading liberty. If that is lost we will cease to be who we think we are.

That darn Hillary she sticks her nose in what she "sensed was a sure-fire political issue" and "Pfft goes the issue"

http://www.spectator.org..._article.asp?art_id=8753

That leaves Democratic Party operatives with a diminishing issue. A week ago, they sensed they had Bush and the Republicans on the ropes in re the 2006 Congressional elections. On Capitol Hill, where Democrats of the 109th Congress have once again failed to put forward a single policy idea (and "no" is not a policy idea), there was much harrumphing about the administration's manifest and manifold failures with regard to Hurricane Katrina. Senator Hillary Clinton had high visibility on what her colleagues sensed was a sure-fire political issue. Then came this week's CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll. Fifty-eight percent of Americans approve of the way Bush has been handling the aftermath of Katrina. That is 20 points above his overall job-approval rating. Pfft goes the issue for the Democrats, who have once again "misunderestimated" their foe.

Daaamn!

Hey Brad you've aquired quite a scroungy herd of smelly little trolls here lately. You must be doing something right to bring out so many attacks from so many small minded and viscious boot lickers. Keep up the good work!

I don't have time to deal with you name-callers anymore but, HCOCDR, where is this Gallup poll you're talking about other than in The Spectator's wishful thinking? Here's what I see on Gallup:

A majority of Americans, 54%, disapprove of the way Bush is handling the response to Hurricane Katrina, while 43% approve.

Not that it matters so much. Most Americans are sheeple who are willing to be led and need the father-figure (Jesus, GWB, Ronnie Raygun, etc.) to tell them what to do and how to think. I think that you need to think outside the father figures. The country is going into the crapper (national bankruptcy anyone?) and you just spout the same tired rhetoric and name call those who disagree with you. I honestly don't know how you live with yourselves.

I've got paying work to do.

Have a nice day.

HCOC

As you study at your leisure, if you run across any articles re. DU, could you pass them on as well. I am very concerned about this poison and it's effects on humans, and info is scarce.

The information I seek, is from independant scientists, not the government.

#133

Here's a poll for ya....

read em and weep

126 Rev. Goober

If you don't like it here, ask Brad or Winter Patriot for a refund.

CHEMBOB #135 --- They are actually ghouls, and don't have to live with themselves, they just "troll" back to their Rovian PR crypts.

Once again, the reverse-effect "mirrored" distortions appear. The confusion these WARLOCKS try to create, does sometimes hurt their own noggins! Example: "...the Democrats, who have once again 'misunderestimated' their foe." Reversal: They consider any American who is NON-NEOCONIC to be their foe???

(Note the pathetic attempt to use Bush mispeak to their advantage by "HICCUP" in COMMENT #133 on 9/17/2005 @ 8:18am PT...)

UPDATE: The unidentified stench hovering near Camp Casey near Crawford, TX, has since been identified by analysis of a recent Bradblog photo of "Stink Blossom" outside a white pu truck Rove had been observed to drive by several times. He finally stopped the truck and seemed to be peering across the road at Camp Casey, where Brad was broadcasting. It appeared his assistant was attempting to turn him around in order for him demonstrate where his nickname really comes from. (Moral of this story:
BRAD - you are targeted by the Great Turd himself. Beware of detrucked standing reversed pu drivers as well as posters who have a similar flatulence.)

#135 I can't find those poll numbers either. I did find this which seems to express the opposite.
www.gallup.com

The trolls commenting here are caged animals. Fearfull and fighting. I recognize them as such, they have been caged and can not get out. W won't help them, heaven forbid, so they scratch and snarl and and try to scare everyone..duh. When will they begin to see the zookeeper wants them in the zoo. Those of us that are not in the cages are the ones that threaten bush. ( Did I mention that I also believe in Human Evolution). Let them snarl, name call, fight, for what it's worth. They are locked up securely in their cages and cannot get out, they cannot hurt anyone.

Merifour, I hear Fitzgerald has a cage door open for them, and, the soon-to-be cagees are trying to keep the door from shutting!

Lindy, LOL, I have been wondering how long it will take for Fitzgerald to commit 'suicide', 'die in a plane crash' or been replaced.

{ed note: “Darnelle” aka Rev Goober T. Bass/Mullah Gomer/geeter/Old Jones/bonczaar/Cletus/Junior Johnson/mary beth” --- Deleted due to repeated, flagrant violations of the very few rules we have here: Insulting other commenters, posting under different names, etc.}

"...soon-to-be cagees are trying to keep the door from shutting! " (with GWB and all of his neo adm inside, of course!)

Merifour, I've been wondering the same thing. He must be just "too public".

Actually, Fitzie could make a wonderful series for the Neo-Animal Planet about the danger-filled saga and intelligent strategy involved in the capture of each caged neo-snarler and creeper.

Picture it: A NEOCON zoo, with Chimp and his entire band of dark angels right there in DC in front of the White House, so we pro-people Americans could go and view them hiding in their natural habitats!

What a treat!

(Apologies to our beloved and besieged fauna of our Planet Earth, due to the destructive actions of the current evil administration.)

Merifour, Hopefully that won't happen but nothing would surprise me. The thing about Grand Juries is that they can carry on with indictments even in the absence of the Special Prosecutor. In fact, it is my understanding that if the GJ doesn't believe that the SP is aggressive enough that the GJ can decide, via the GJ foreman, to issue indictments without the SP's input. That is probably why Fitzgerald is still alive. That and the fact that everyone would recognize his death for what it was.

I think this is critically important because I don't believe the Republic, perhaps not the earth, will survive in any recognizable form by the 2006 elections if the neocons remain in office. And this unrecognizable result will not be the neocon dream of worldwide democratization which, in their view, is a centralized elite who understand everything that is necessary and consider the masses unable to comprehend their reality, therefore we (the masses) must be protected and ameliorated by lies. This is precisely why we are in Iraq. They met their ends by lying to us. We have to learn to recognize everything that they tell us is a lie. Somehow we have to convince most of the remaining 40-45% of the US of what is going down here, because we were all taught that lying is wrong and to respect our leaders, ergo, our leaders don't lie. Unfortunately, they do.

OK, took a break, back to work.

""As you study at your leisure, if you run across any articles re. DU, could you pass them on as well. I am very concerned about this poison and it's effects on humans, and info is scarce""

If you guys read anything truthful about DU rounds you would find that they are designed to defeat armor. How many tanks are the takfuriest using? We are not shooting them all over the place like the media in the green zone is telling you. How can so many, know so little, about so much?

Wow you want to talk about dishonoring the troops, read your own posts HCOCDR, Paul etc!

You are dishonoring the troops every damn day, every single foul thing that comes out of your mouth! They should be buried in ditches now because they serve satan, etc. they all suck, cindy sheehan is the anti-christ and other nonsense.

You need help, badly. Get some mental help fast. Those troops do not deserve your spewing venom and distortion based comments. They served their country whether they listed to corrupt criminal leaders or not, and it wasn't their decision. It's always the presidents decision and he gives the orders.

Your blame can go smack dab back at the president and his accessories. You are no less than accomplices in crime for a terrible, irrepreable damaging slaughter by twisted neocons who want to break up the U.N.

The U.N. didn't take their shit. Did anyone watch Nightline the other night? Hugo Chavez got loud cheers and applause from the U.N. for calling this band of crooks out in daylight. Don't you find it fascinating some of you share their orange jumpsuits coming to their bodies of shame.

Doug E.

Lindy....ROFL, Yes, Yes, a NEOCON Zoo. I love it!
Yes, it could be a Washington attraction, on the grounds of the "sealed off" government grounds... the barbed wire and barriers are already there! We could even open another within the restricted 23 miles in Crawford. What fun. Yes, with an apology to Gaia certainly, but she would probably thank us in the long run.

{ed note: “Darnelle” aka Rev Goober T. Bass/Mullah Gomer/geeter/Old Jones/bonczaar/Cletus/Junior Johnson/mary beth” --- Deleted due to repeated, flagrant violations of the very few rules we have here: Insulting other commenters, posting under different names, etc.}

{ed note: “Darnelle” aka Rev Goober T. Bass/Mullah Gomer/geeter/Old Jones/bonczaar/Cletus/Junior Johnson/mary beth” --- Deleted due to repeated, flagrant violations of the very few rules we have here: Insulting other commenters, posting under different names, etc.}

{ed note: “Darnelle” aka Rev Goober T. Bass/Mullah Gomer/geeter/Old Jones/bonczaar/Cletus/Junior Johnson/mary beth” --- Deleted due to repeated, flagrant violations of the very few rules we have here: Insulting other commenters, posting under different names, etc.}

Comment #89 --- ...A Concerned
Citizen said:

"You people who make it all left/right just don't get it. She doesn't give
a rats ass if he's republican or democrat, she's a mother wanting some NEW
answers, since there were NEW things that had come to light since she last
chatted with him. DSM mainly, I'm sure. That's why he wouldn't see her. Someday
the silence will be broken by someone who decides an entire nation is worth more
than the cash in their bank account. Anyone???? Please????"

Bill Clinton Video on repealing Tax Cuts
Pres. Clinton was on the Today Show this morning and wants the tax cuts
repealed.
Then, read:

Clinton Gathers World Leaders
Nonpartisan Conference Focuses on Global Improvement

By Glenn Kessler
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, September 16, 2005; A02"

A fantastic intriguing read of this article can be had at: www.washingtonpost.com

Do you Bushies kiss your mothers with that mouth?
Boy, Nana needs to give you Bushies a Humor 101 class, it's Saturday, lighten up ! Oh but there is a full moon out.

What are you Bushies so afraid of, Cindy is just a little ole mom. Maybe like moms that started Amber Alert program or MADD, (moms against drunk driving) Moms are pretty docile until their young start getting hurt then WATCH OUT !

Bushies, take it easy, the more you inflame the fence sitters the more they will get off the fence and start thinking. Karl will be really mad at you if citizens actually start thinking. He might take you off the payroll. And you would have to GET A JOB.

My God, you warriors are women-hating and democracy bashing! Do you even read what you write before you post? What the hell happened to you? I know they don't teach civics in school anymore and the history courses are not much better than non-existent so the younger among you may have an excuse for your ignorance. But, if any of you are older than 45 or so how can you not understand what is so obviously a thinly veiled mutation of Trotskyism that has evolved into neoconservatism? What you think you are fighting/arguing for is a democratic republic, precisely what we "liberals" (even though I'm not one) are fighting for, but you've been duped. You are arguing essentially in favor of the offshoot proponents of the Communist revolution (way over-simplified as I've stated it). Let me point you to an excellent explanation of what has happened, what you are espousing and arguing for, from a true conservative (i.e., not a neocon, fyi Pat Buchanan posts on this site too). Here is the link (it is the Sept. 16 version of his Behind the Headlines if the link goes to a generic page at the site, hard to tell from looking at it):

http://antiwar.com/justin/

This is the best explanation I've seen of what is going on here and why both liberals and true conservatives are against this war and the damage it is doing to our republic.

#146 Chembob, thanks for the info on the GJ, I did not know that....but are the 'players' on the GJ for us or against us if Fitzgerald is out? I just watched The Hunting of a President regarding the attacks on Clinton. I was absolutely astonished. I bought all that propraganda, I really did, what an eye opener that documentary was. My point is the Frisk was replaced by Starr. Starr was relentless. I thought I was pretty informed in the 90's and realize now I was so totally stupid. I will not even give myself the credit of being ignorant. I was just plain stupid.
(Don't get me wrong...I still believe Clinton has a lot of dirty laundry and the documentry was made by Tomlinson, Clinton's good friend, but the tactics used to try to bring him down have Bushco written all over them).

Re: second paragraph. I totally agree. We are struggling for the survival of our Country as well as the Planet. I wonder if we will get our country back.
I wrote to one of my members of congress that George Washington-George Bush....beginning to the ending. I realized the other day that perhaps a clue I had overlooked is George's middle intitial "W". Am still analyzing that one.

Indeed we are now living in an upside down world. Nothing is what it appears to be. I have to dust off my old copies of Orwell's 1984 and Animal Farm. The BIG LIE as I choose to call it is being exposed by all of the enlightened people on this and other blogs. Those with eyes to see and ears to hear will recognize Truth, the others will hopefully wake up sooner than later.

While you are at it try LINK
Katrina survivor poll-very interesting reading

Merifour, it is an highly unusual circumstance for a GJ to exert its power in that manner. Hasn't happened in a very long time and not very often before that. I'm guessing, however, that if something happened to Fitzgerald this GJ would be incensed and do something about it. My guess is that they've seen the most alarming things imaginable about this administration and they'll take their jobs seriously. That is my hope for certain.

Chembob, I do hope you are right. I keep reading different articles about how Fitzgerald is getting closer and closer to exposing 'them' and I think they will do anything to stop him. I just hope and pray this does not turn into another dirty trick. And now I am off to a B'Day party. Signed: Alice N. Wunderland.

NEW DEVELOPMENTS?? WHATS THIS HAPPENING?

BLACKWELL TO APPEAR IN COURT: JUST BREAKING

"Federal Judge Sets Expedited Schedule for Lawsuit Challenging Disenfranchisement in Ohio (September 15, 2005)
At a scheduling conference held August 30, 2005, Chief U.S. District Judge David Carr granted the plaintiffs' request for an expedited discovery process and trial date in League of Women Voters of Ohio v. Blackwell, a lawsuit in which we are seeking fundamental reform of Ohio's dysfunctional election process. Under the schedule established by Judge Carr, pre-trial discovery will proceed immediately, and will not be stayed to await a decision on the state defendants' pending motion to dismiss the complaint. Judge Carr set a trial date of June 13, 2006, with the aim of having a decision in advance of the 2006 elections. Depositions of the plaintiffs are to be completed by October 31, 2005, depositions of defendant and third party witnesses by December 15, 2005, and expert discovery is to be completed by February 15, 2006.

Filed in federal court in Toledo, the complaint chronicles deficiencies in Ohio elections going back more than three decades, including widespread problems with the voter registration system, the absentee and provisional ballot processes, the training of poll workers, the organization of polling places and precincts, and the allocation of voting machines. The lawsuit seeks to compel the state to uphold its constitutional obligation to provide for its citizens' right to register and vote. It also alleges Ohio has failed to meet its obligations under the Help America Vote Act. NVRI is partnering with the Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights Under Law, Proskauer Rose LLP, Arnold & Porter LLP, People for the American Way Foundation, the Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights of the San Francisco Bay Area, and Connelly, Jackson & Collier LLP, to provide representation to the plaintiffs in this case. For more information, see here"

NRVI Lawsuit against Blackwell gets trial date, depositions and discovery process extended.

OHIO is starting to blow apart....Kerry-Edwards team is still joined in the federal fight, and seeks to overturn permits and impound the machines for a discovery process. Formal trial date set for August 26.

For those who said John Kerry wasn't in the fight, I guess you all better keep on the news more agressively!

W-tenacious

Paul lied:

"Hey Paul. Answer Brad's question about backing up with proof your accusations about Cindy. Put up or shut up."

I already did - see #39

To wish I answered in #64:

Paul - I asked you to show me a lie from Cindy Sheehan. You failed to. If you had an ounce of self-respect (and I have no reason to believe you do), you will retract your disgusting, unsupported horseshit immediately.

As I mentioned in that post as well...

Have a feeling I'll be waiting a while for that since you come from Bush World, where nobody takes responsibility for anything...other than momentarily...when forced...once every five years.

Well, we're all still waiting and Paul is still lying.

None of us are surpised.

We are, however, delighted that another liar/hero of Paul's Lucianne Goldberg's site has decided momentarily to link to this story. Only to remove the link, I guess, when they realized all of their supporters were in favor of theft.

Pathetic-er and Pathetic-er...

Christ would be turning in his grave, we suppose for those, like Paul, who call themselves "Christian".

{ed note: “Darnelle” aka Rev Goober T. Bass/Mullah Gomer/geeter/Old Jones/bonczaar/Cletus/Junior Johnson/mary beth” --- Deleted due to repeated, flagrant violations of the very few rules we have here: Insulting other commenters, posting under different names, etc.}

{ed note: “Darnelle” aka Rev Goober T. Bass/Mullah Gomer/geeter/Old Jones/bonczaar/Cletus/Junior Johnson/mary beth” --- Deleted due to repeated, flagrant violations of the very few rules we have here: Insulting other commenters, posting under different names, etc.}

{ed note: “Darnelle” aka Rev Goober T. Bass/Mullah Gomer/geeter/Old Jones/bonczaar/Cletus/Junior Johnson/mary beth” --- Deleted due to repeated, flagrant violations of the very few rules we have here: Insulting other commenters, posting under different names, etc.}

{ed note: “Darnelle” aka Rev Goober T. Bass/Mullah Gomer/geeter/Old Jones/bonczaar/Cletus/Junior Johnson/mary beth” --- Deleted due to repeated, flagrant violations of the very few rules we have here: Insulting other commenters, posting under different names, etc.}

Doesn't Junior's name pretty much say it all? I hope he keeps his Johnson to himself! Why haven't any of you assholes read the Justin Raimondo article that I mentioned (and to which I provided the link) and responded with your thoughts? I realize it is a long article and contains some big words (scaarrry) but I figured maybe one or two of you Bushitters would be up to it. After all, DrugRush Limpbowels and Shill O'Lielly occasionally use big words in their fabrications (oops, sorry, I used a 4 syllable word) and surely you've picked up the meaning of a few of them.

JJ and Celtus- Cleanup on Aisle 5, they want their Beavis and Butthead back. I think they extended a personal two-day employee waiver also, you don't have to suck up as much bullshit now since your mouths are already open.

I seriously wonder sometimes, about the education in these high-schools. Are they getting filled with two-seated ted bundies or is that just the RITALIN from the school nurse speaking again?

Cindy Sheehan, you've done more good than you know. Now the whole country is seperating the wheat from the chaff.

W-tenacious

Texaslady - excellend post (#153). Never thought of it that way. Yes, mothers have made a difference in the past!

Form the group. Get a name. MAGNET comes to mind lol - Mother's Against George's Nazi Earth Takeover. Hell yeh. No, seriously, you're absolutely right about that though.

ChemBob - good link, thanks. It does sum it up pretty well.

Brad, Paul never can respond with facts. In #128, I asked him, "Paul - you've never been mislead by someone and then changed your viewpoint about something when you find out some disturbing facts and that someone's lied to your face about the whole thing? No? Well, then you have had a special life, huh?"

To which he responded in #131, "You are wrong. I exposed someone as a phony and it ended up in the Dallas Morning News. Good try though!"

What the hell does that have to do with my question? "Exposing someone" is not even closely related to being lied to, or someone changing their viewpoint because of it. Nothing to do with being mislead in the first place.

NCOCDR, DU is just that. It has very very small amounts of radioactive uranium in it. It is an alpha emitter. Alpha's are highly charged particles but because they are so highly charged, they don't even get through the outer layers of your skin. The dust from DU though can get into your lungs were there are no dead cells to protect them. That is the only radioactive concern about DU. My only concern would be if I was in a tank that didn't have good ventilation AND if a portion of the round was vaporized when fired. You will probably recieve more radiation from these sources than you would from DU: Smoking, eating bannanas, or lite salt (pottasium 41), weld (thorium), live in a region with high radon in the basement (N/A for your present location), medical X-rays, fly a lot, live in Denver (high attitude - cosmic radiation). Uranium is a naturally occuring item in soil, sand and even food. I'm not familiar with the toxic nature of ingesting uranium (a heavy metal) but I wouldn't recommend snacking on it.

{ed note: “Darnelle” aka Rev Goober T. Bass/Mullah Gomer/geeter/Old Jones/bonczaar/Cletus/Junior Johnson/mary beth” --- Deleted due to repeated, flagrant violations of the very few rules we have here: Insulting other commenters, posting under different names, etc.}

{ed note: “Darnelle” aka Rev Goober T. Bass/Mullah Gomer/geeter/Old Jones/bonczaar/Cletus/Junior Johnson/mary beth/Sean --- Deleted due to repeated, flagrant violations of the very few rules we have here: Insulting other commenters, posting under different names, etc.}

#168 Again do you kiss your mother with that mouth? Obviously a degree did not give you any commonsense, nor class.
Sell your Kenworth and buy a dictionary.

Sean, it was a political discussion but it was devolved by those who don't believe that things can evolve. Devolution over evolution? Now that's a backward revolution.

sad.

Cindy didn't lie? How about this one: Bush lied about Iraq having WMD. Lying implies that the truth was known before hand. Bush may have be misinformed about Iraq having WMD but lying??? I think not. There has not been ANYTHING that proves Bush knew. Cindy knows that so that makes her the liar. I have a questionfor all you liberal mental midgets. If you truly believe that Bush lied when he stated that Iraq had WMD, how come isn't Clinton, Kerry, Kennedy, and Edwards also a liar? They also stated that Iraq had WMD. Clinton in fact when he bombed that pharmaceutical stated that it had ties to Iraq and was making WMD for Al-Queda. I know how you guys hate Rush so I'll link to one of your communist web sites: http://www.wsws.org/news...998/sep1998/sud-s12.shtm

So, why is it only a lie when Bush says it but not a lie when liberals say it?l

Hellooooo #173!!! Cindy Sheehan is not our President (along with all the others you mentioned!) A little fact, even if it goes right over your head.

And links right back atcha #173

WorldNetDaily Yes - Bush Lied.

Ten Appalling Lies We Were Told About Iraq

[snip] LIE #1: "The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program ... Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons." --- President Bush, Oct. 7, 2002, in Cincinnati.

FACT: This story, leaked to and breathlessly reported by Judith Miller in the New York Times, has turned out to be complete baloney. Department of Energy officials, who monitor nuclear plants, say the tubes could not be used for enriching uranium. One intelligence analyst, who was part of the tubes investigation, angrily told The New Republic: "You had senior American officials like Condoleezza Rice saying the only use of this aluminum really is uranium centrifuges. She said that on television. And that's just a lie."

LIE #2: "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." --- President Bush, Jan.28, 2003, in the State of the Union address.

FACT: This whopper was based on a document that the White House already knew to be a forgery thanks to the CIA. Sold to Italian intelligence by some hustler, the document carried the signature of an official who had been out of office for 10 years and referenced a constitution that was no longer in effect. The ex-ambassador who the CIA sent to check out the story is pissed: "They knew the Niger story was a flat-out lie," he told the New Republic, anonymously. "They [the White House] were unpersuasive about aluminum tubes and added this to make their case more strongly."

LIE #3: "We believe [Saddam] has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." --- Vice President Cheney on March 16, 2003 on "Meet the Press."

FACT: There was and is absolutely zero basis for this statement. CIA reports up through 2002 showed no evidence of an Iraqi nuclear weapons program.

LIE #4: "[The CIA possesses] solid reporting of senior-level contacts between Iraq and al-Qaeda going back a decade." --- CIA Director George Tenet in a written statement released Oct. 7, 2002 and echoed in that evening's speech by President Bush.

FACT: Intelligence agencies knew of tentative contacts between Saddam and al-Qaeda in the early '90s, but found no proof of a continuing relationship. In other words, by tweaking language, Tenet and Bush spun the intelligence180 degrees to say exactly the opposite of what it suggested.

LIE #5: "We've learned that Iraq has trained al-Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases ... Alliance with terrorists could allow the Iraqi regime to attack America without leaving any fingerprints." --- President Bush, Oct. 7.

FACT: No evidence of this has ever been leaked or produced. Colin Powell told the U.N. this alleged training took place in a camp in northern Iraq. To his great embarrassment, the area he indicated was later revealed to be outside Iraq's control and patrolled by Allied war planes.

LIE #6: "We have also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We are concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVs [unmanned aerial vehicles] for missions targeting the United States." --- President Bush, Oct. 7.

FACT: Said drones can't fly more than 300 miles, and Iraq is 6,000 miles from the U.S. coastline. Furthermore, Iraq's drone-building program wasn't much more advanced than your average model plane enthusiast. And isn't a "manned aerial vehicle" just a scary way to say "plane"?

LIE #7: "We have seen intelligence over many months that they have chemical and biological weapons, and that they have dispersed them and that they're weaponized and that, in one case at least, the command and control arrangements have been established." --- President Bush, Feb. 8, 2003, in a national radio address.

FACT: Despite a massive nationwide search by U.S. and British forces, there are no signs, traces or examples of chemical weapons being deployed in the field, or anywhere else during the war.

LIE #8: "Our conservative estimate is that Iraq today has a stockpile of between 100 and 500 tons of chemical weapons agent. That is enough to fill 16,000 battlefield rockets." --- Secretary of State Colin Powell, Feb. 5 2003, in remarks to the UN Security Council.

FACT: Putting aside the glaring fact that not one drop of this massive stockpile has been found, as previously reported on AlterNet the United States' own intelligence reports show that these stocks --- if they existed --- were well past their use-by date and therefore useless as weapon fodder.

LIE #9: "We know where [Iraq's WMD] are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south, and north somewhat." --- Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, March 30, 2003, in statements to the press.

FACT: Needless to say, no such weapons were found, not to the east, west, south or north, somewhat or otherwise.

LIE #10: "Yes, we found a biological laboratory in Iraq which the UN prohibited." --- President Bush in remarks in Poland, published internationally June 1, 2003.

FACT: This was reference to the discovery of two modified truck trailers that the CIA claimed were potential mobile biological weapons lab. But British and American experts --- including the State Department's intelligence wing in a report released this week --- have since declared this to be untrue. According to the British, and much to Prime Minister Tony Blair's embarrassment, the trailers are actually exactly what Iraq said they were; facilities to fill weather balloons, sold to them by the British themselves. [snip] **MORE**

Lies told by the guy who says he's the President of the US are the lies that matter.

Go back to sleep now.

Sorry nuclear, but there is proof that Bush lied and he misled congress. Its underneath the full resolutions during the downing street minutes.

Plus Clinton and the others who lied, didn't know about the deception in reality. Clinton may have known it was a lie but he didn't go to war. There's the rub. And there's where your logic fails.

Bush knew he was lying on purpose because, before he declared war....He said that Saddam was never going to get weapons capability again.

But after meeting with the neocons...He changed his message to Saddam has re-constituted the weapons again.....All after his meetings too with Cheney, about the oil pipelines.

So as a matter of factly, Cindy is correct. He deliberately lied, not negligently. And so from the year 2000 forward he had aspirations to take down Iraq. He didn't know that would involve a full war-invasion until the neocons took over.

Now Bush*, and Blair* liars that they are committed impeachable offenses on the record. ON THE RECORD, they lied to go to war. And were manipulated by the neocon gangsters.

W-tenacious

#174, Clintoon wasn't our president when he attacked that factory??? hellooooo anyone home???

Lie #1: Again, that was what anaylsist stated to Bush. Bush didn't make that determination on his own. If Brad gives you a data that he believes is true and it turns out later that it was wrong does that make the both of you liars? Of course not. Now if Brad puts out stuff that he knows is false and you also know it's not true, then yes, you are lying. There was doubt for several years whether the tubes could or could not be used.

Lie #2: OK, are you lying? or just don't know the facts. The British government stands by it's claim and states that the the forged documents had nothng to do with it.

#176 --- stupid. We're talking about current events. Who says he's president this year? Ahem.

Thank you Kira and Tenacious. I read Nuclear's post before I scrolled down far enough to see your posts and I was already thinking, "Damn, I'm tired, I need to keep working, and I'm so tired of showing real documents and evidence to people who either won't remember that they've seen them in a day or so or wouldn't believe they were real (no matter how many independent sources there are) if Jesus Christ floated down to them with the evidence inscribed on granite tablets and carried by Moses." Ok, maybe that isn't exactly what I thought, there was a lot more profanity in it really, LOL, but I do appreciate not having to go through it all again.

Yes and Clinton in war with yugoslavia wasn't related to lying to the country about WMD, or any of the other nonsense that gets put out there.

The entire Iraq war was. The basis was lies. The basis was FICTION. The enemy was FICTION. Now, if you can't distinguish that you're completely blind.

Its a fact that he lied in order to start the war, not an opinion.

W-tenacious

Max Headroom #176 "that the the forged documents had nothing to do with it" ...

Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah ... like the the the alleged alleged alleged alleged only forged documents had had had had nothing to do do do do with Rathergate ...

dude get a grip and/or an clue.

There is no doubt anymore that this administration is founded upon lies. It is the modus operandi.

I doubt they could be prosecuted, however, because I really do not think they know the difference and therefore cannot form the requisite intent to lie. Basically they are delusional and need help and lotsa hospital time.

"I doubt they could be prosecuted"

They doubted Nixon could be prosecuted....or his cabinet. If the lie fits and the shoe fits........wear it. Especially if the spies fit....

W-tenacious

Nuclear, the last I heard (in relation to your comment, "The British government stands by it's claim and states that the the forged documents had nothng to do with it.") and assuming you're talking about the Downing Street Minutes, the British have, at the very least, not denied their authenticity and have implicitly indicated that they are real. And these documents stated that the intelligence was being "fixed" and it was being fixed at the highest levels of Bush's regime. If you would like to read about the veracity of the minutes, it is available in Wikipedia, among other places. Here is that section from Wikipedia (but there are reference links in the Wiki), it's rather long:

Veracity of the memo
Michael Smith, the journalist who first reported on the Downing Street Memo, has said that he protected the identity of his source by photocopying the original and returning the original document to the source. The document was retyped from the photocopy, and the photocopy destroyed. This has led some to question the document's authenticity, but no official source has questioned it, and it has been unofficially confirmed to various news organizations, including the Washington Post, NBC, The Sunday Times and the LA Times. Several other documents obtained by Smith, and treated similarly (see below), were confirmed as genuine by the UK Foreign Office.[20]
One of the first articles on the memo to appear in the US media quoted "a former senior US official", who, speaking on condition of anonymity, called the memo's account "an absolutely accurate description of what transpired" during the senior British intelligence officer's visit to Washington. [21] UK Prime Minister Tony Blair denied that anything in the memo demonstrated misconduct and said that it added little to what was already known about how British policy on Iraq developed.
Tony Blair, responding to a question on the document, said: "that memorandum was written before we went to the United Nations" [22].
White House spokesman Scott McClellan, when questioned about the document's accuracy, did not confirm or deny its accuracy.
US Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice and UK Foreign Secretary Jack Straw, when questioned about the document's accuracy, did not confirm or deny its accuracy.
George W. Bush has not responded to questions from Congress regarding the memo's accuracy.
The British Embassy in Washington did not respond to requests for comment.
A White House official said the administration wouldn't comment on leaked British documents.
When asked about the contents of the memo by Plaid Cymru MP Adam Price in the House of Commons on 29 June 2005, Blair again refrained from disputing the document's authenticity, saying only "[…]that memo and other documents of the time were covered by the Butler review. In addition, that was before we went to the United Nations and secured the second resolution, 1441, which had unanimous support."[23]
According to CNN, currently classified documents which were dated at the same month as the Downing Street memo, March of 2002, were uncovered in Iraq, and contained evidence that Russian intelligence notified Iraq about the "determination of the United States and Britain to launch military action." [24]

Whoops, wrong button. continueing on Lie #2. http://www.cnn.com/2003/...rj.irq.uk.uranium.straw/

Lie #3: I thought we were talking about Bush.

Lie #4: And what exactly was Zarqowi (sp?) doing in Iraq? How about: Salman Pak / Al Salman

Former Iraqi military officers have described a highly secret terrorist training facility at Salman Pak, where both Iraqis and non-Iraqi Arabs receive training on hijacking planes and trains, planting explosives in cities, sabotage, and assassinations. http://www.globalsecurit...orld/iraq/salman_pak.htm

Lie #5: See #4

Lie# 6 The liberal website you copied this from lies just as bad as what you say Bush does. It's proof that Bush lied was that the drones could travel only 300 miles and there for was no threat to the U.S. What does your author leave out? Here's what was also said but obviously not included: "They're worried that these vehicles have already been, or could be, transported inside the United States to be used in an attack, although there is no proof that this has happened." http://www.foxnews.com/s...ory/0,2933,79450,00.html

Lie#7: Again, just because intelligance was wrong doesn't mean that he was lying. If I call the cops on you and tell them that I saw you delevering pot in your house and the police raid your house, are the police liars?

Lie #8: Again, they said estimate. They never said proof. And how about that lie from what you copied that not a single drop of chemical weapons has not been found? That is itself a lie. Shells have been found. Old ones for sure but to state not a single drop has been found is another liberal lie.

Baghdad, Iraq - A roadside bomb containing sarin nerve agent exploded near a US military convoy in Baghdad, the US military said on Monday. It was the first confirmed finding of any of the banned weapons upon which the United States based its case for the Iraq war. http://www.news24.com/Ne...-10-1460_1528363,00.html

Lie #9: OK, you got me on that one. But Bush didn't say it.

Lie #10: Again, that was what Bush believed was true at the time.

So basically what you are saying is that ONLY a president can lie???? How pathetic

Joseph Cannon coined a good name for these trolls,
"BUSH BORG" .Facts are futile

Fox News is a right-wing hate news outlet. It has no facts of any kind.

There is no proof Zaraqui even exists, or that he is in Iraq at all. He may be dead, no one knows. No one's ever asked the question of who Zaraqui even is.

No independant investigations either, to address the question. According to the UK Independant Zaraqui may be fictional, in that he died several years back. The "terrorist network" is nothing but a bunch of defunct syrian militia and soldiers who have nothing to do with Iraq.

All of the insurgents are nothing but citizens protecting their homeland. The whole thing was a crock of bullshit. Therefore, we have no reason but to note that the war is a complete lie.

W-tenacious

Nukular,

There was no justification for the war on Iraq other than lies that Bush knew were lies, prepared for him by the Neocons and made palatable to the public via the speeches of trusted leaders (Pres, VicePres, and Colin Powell). Colin Powell admits that was the low point of his career. He is ashamed of what he did. Between the US and the UN we had Iraq and Hussein absolutely under control and knew for a fact that there were no WMDs in Iraq. We knew it, I knew it, all you had to do was look at the reports, etc., a little bit and listen to the outbriefs of the highly skilled UN inspectors. And you still don't think Bush was lying? Of course he was lying because he has an agenda; one which is not in your best interest.

BTW, I would like to ask you specifically. Did you go read the Justin Raimondo column that I recommended to all of you in one of the comments above?

Chembob, No, I was talking about Britain standing by their findings that Iraq had attempted to purchase yellowcake. You know, the yellowcake that Wilson also said that Iraq had attempted to buy...

Now about the DSM... I still find it funny that liberals are so hysterical about it.

All the DSM was was an action plan... He was saying here's how we are going to go about it. FIXED means several different things. One of them is to "gather facts around" If Bush wanted to use the numerous U.N. violations he could have used taht item and fixed the facts around that. Or he could have fixed the facts around Iraq being one of the biggest supporters of terrorism in the region (per Clinton). Manic Obsessive Bush Haters who can't get over the fact that Bush beat Gore in 2000 will use any term or perceived slight to ATTEMPT to smear him. Just look at the juvenile glee when he was photgraphed writing a note having to use the bathroom.

:laughs: Dredd! Hey - don't they have a hospital on a tropical island getaway that serves "delicious lemon chicken and 2 kinds of fruit?"

To #176

Give a link for your assertion that the British gov't "states that the the forged documents had nothng to do with it."

Thankee mucho!

My connection was down and now after refreshing this page I see Nukulur Kemist is struggling to bend more truth into the lies he believes. So sad.

Another "communist" organization (eh Nukulur Kemist?) - Veterans for Peace

[snip] In retrospect, the Bush administration's most publicized war stories have all been the products of smoke and mirrors. Contrary to the initial hype, the Hussein "decapitation strike" turned up no bodies and no bunkers. Chemical Ali walked out alive. Jessica Lynch was never shot, stabbed, or tortured by Iraqis. And despite all the hot tips Ahmad Chalabi spoon-fed to New York Times reporter Judith Miller, the WMD search teams have not found a single silver bullet or smoking gun. The war on Iraq is a Byzantine puzzle that begins and ends with a lie. The media have an obligation to expose it. [snip]

Now you're using the BS PNAC defense.

Even independants have stopped using it, drop the lies Nuclear.

They aren't working.

Want to see your heroes? They are none other than a group of demented neocn israelites who want to overtake everything and own all the oil.

Project for a New American Century

If you agree with this bullshit, you're america's enemy. This is the most imperial bullshit in the world. And the downing street minutes only PROVE outright, that the lies are on the record of congress.

Read this document: Every fact here has never been refuted.

The Uranium Lies which can lead to Impeachment

What are you going to say to that, Nuk? Time to police everybody and control their oil?

This shame will forever be on the GOP congress' head, and the fake president's. This shame is no less than treason and the shredding of a constitution. This is the shame that must be removed from america completely.

W-tenacious

167 Nuclear

There is also another radioactive concern about DU, it can get into wounds, and can be injested if good handwashing isn't observed, etc. You know, it remains in the soil for a very long time, might as well say forever. Thats how long it stays in the body, forever.

Have you ever heard of Gulf War Syndrome?

Where did you learn about DU, from the government

Nuclear, yes the DSM was describing an action plan to justify an illegal war. Please don't lecture me about the meaning of the word "fixed." I won't bother to explain why. "Fixed" means the same thing colloquially in Britain that it means here, btw. And if you read the context of the memo, the meaning is transparent. How can you not understand the meaning of the sentence, "But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy." Also...

No yellowcake here, Nuclear:

Published on Sunday, July 6, 2003 by the New York Times
What I Didn't Find in Africa
by Joseph C. Wilson 4th

...The next morning, I met with Ambassador Owens-Kirkpatrick at the embassy. For reasons that are understandable, the embassy staff has always kept a close eye on Niger's uranium business. I was not surprised, then, when the ambassador told me that she knew about the allegations of uranium sales to Iraq — and that she felt she had already debunked them in her reports to Washington. Nevertheless, she and I agreed that my time would be best spent interviewing people who had been in government when the deal supposedly took place, which was before her arrival.

I spent the next eight days drinking sweet mint tea and meeting with dozens of people: current government officials, former government officials, people associated with the country's uranium business. It did not take long to conclude that it was highly doubtful that any such transaction had ever taken place.

Given the structure of the consortiums that operated the mines, it would be exceedingly difficult for Niger to transfer uranium to Iraq. Niger's uranium business consists of two mines, Somair and Cominak, which are run by French, Spanish, Japanese, German and Nigerian interests. If the government wanted to remove uranium from a mine, it would have to notify the consortium, which in turn is strictly monitored by the International Atomic Energy Agency. Moreover, because the two mines are closely regulated, quasi-governmental entities, selling uranium would require the approval of the minister of mines, the prime minister and probably the president. In short, there's simply too much oversight over too small an industry for a sale to have transpired.

(As for the actual memorandum, I never saw it. But news accounts have pointed out that the documents had glaring errors — they were signed, for example, by officials who were no longer in government — and were probably forged. And then there's the fact that Niger formally denied the charges.)

Before I left Niger, I briefed the ambassador on my findings, which were consistent with her own. I also shared my conclusions with members of her staff. In early March, I arrived in Washington and promptly provided a detailed briefing to the C.I.A. I later shared my conclusions with the State Department African Affairs Bureau. There was nothing secret or earth-shattering in my report, just as there was nothing secret about my trip.

Though I did not file a written report, there should be at least four documents in United States government archives confirming my mission. The documents should include the ambassador's report of my debriefing in Niamey, a separate report written by the embassy staff, a C.I.A. report summing up my trip, and a specific answer from the agency to the office of the vice president (this may have been delivered orally). While I have not seen any of these reports, I have spent enough time in government to know that this is standard operating procedure.

I thought the Niger matter was settled and went back to my life. (I did take part in the Iraq debate, arguing that a strict containment regime backed by the threat of force was preferable to an invasion.) In September 2002, however, Niger re-emerged. The British government published a "white paper" asserting that Saddam Hussein and his unconventional arms posed an immediate danger. As evidence, the report cited Iraq's attempts to purchase uranium from an African country.

Then, in January, President Bush, citing the British dossier, repeated the charges about Iraqi efforts to buy uranium from Africa.

The next day, I reminded a friend at the State Department of my trip and suggested that if the president had been referring to Niger, then his conclusion was not borne out by the facts as I understood them. He replied that perhaps the president was speaking about one of the other three African countries that produce uranium: Gabon, South Africa or Namibia. At the time, I accepted the explanation. I didn't know that in December, a month before the president's address, the State Department had published a fact sheet that mentioned the Niger case....

{ed note: “Darnelle” aka Rev Goober T. Bass/Mullah Gomer/geeter/Old Jones/bonczaar/Cletus/Junior Johnson/mary beth/Larry Bellovin --- Deleted due to repeated, flagrant violations of the very few rules we have here: Insulting other commenters, posting under different names, etc.}

Correction: He was proven to have lied to a republican controlled whitewash committee chaired by Pat Roberts.

That has borne fruit which has proven nothing. Wilson's refutation of all the Uranium lies has been backed up by the U.N. If everyone agrees that they were lies besides Pat Roberts, than they were lies.

Further, this proves Patrick Roberts is an intelligence fixer. He did the same tactics in Iran-Contra. He covers up and fixes situations.

He's an accessory to the crime and so is anyone supporting him. Besides Wilson himself, every other analyst confirmed there was no uranium either and refuted the charges. So it was a lie.

Just because you get someone else's guards to whitewash, and do coverups doesn't change the crime. It makes you accessories and accomplices.

W-tenacious.

Larry, I'm unaware of Wilson lying to Congress. Please show me some documentation.

Let's see if Larry Bellovin #192 can tell us what LIE Joe Wilson is accused of telling. Give us a link (that works) please --- or just spit it right out! What's the lie?

By the way --- Shame on you for trying to pawn off news from one of Rupert Murdoch's rags. Shame!

Chembob Squarepants,

To tell you the truth, I don't really care if Bush knew or didn't know that there were WMD in Iraq. I'm just glad someone is trying to change the dynamics in the middle east. Obviously what we were doing in there before wasn't working. Saving muslims in the Balklands didn't get us in the good graces of the muslims, helping them free Afghanastan didn't help either. All they care about is turning the entire world into one large muslim territory based on the model of the taliban in Afghanastan. Clintons idea of fighting terrorism was to send cruise missiles at empty terrorist bases and claiming victory. Is Bush doing the right thing? Time will tell but the pansy-assed methods of liberals definetly just makes terrorists laugh. Remember, OSL believes in the strong horse theory. And liberals want to behave like weak kneed ponies.

You claim about the massive amount of soldiers that have died but, how many of you know that 7,265 military people have died accidentally between 1990 and 2002? https://www.denix.osd.mi...ty/fy03_final_trends.ppt
Where was your outrage then? We lost 6,600 troops in a single day on D-day. Thank goodness you liberals weren't around then!!!!

Now you move back to the last defense...

"We don't care. We don't care."

That's right; YOU DON'T CARE!!!

You don't care about the lives of americans dead in the needless war, or the muslims killed or anything else. Its all about "me me me" to you rich, red white guys.

Well guess what: Iraq will never be fixed for another 20 years. Its all on your hands, too. What little progress made there has been set back by totally imperialistic blunders, oil refineries being blown up, and the entire arab world turning against us.

Progress, schmogress. Iraq is in civil war and will never repair itself until massive U.N. paid intervention. And its all on YOUR hands. Your GOP congress hands. America will remember that election day. And so will we remember to toss out Diebold.

W-tenacious

Chembob,

http://www.washingtonpos...ml?referrer=emailarticle

...Wilson's assertions --- both about what he found in Niger and what the Bush administration did with the information --- were undermined yesterday in a bipartisan Senate intelligence committee report.
The panel found that Wilson's report, rather than debunking intelligence about purported uranium sales to Iraq, as he has said, bolstered the case for most intelligence analysts. And contrary to Wilson's assertions and even the government's previous statements, the CIA did not tell the White House it had qualms about the reliability of the Africa intelligence that made its way into 16 fateful words in President Bush's January 2003 State of the Union address.
... Wilson's reports to the CIA added to the evidence that Iraq may have tried to buy uranium in Niger, although officials at the State Department remained highly skeptical, the report said.

Wilson said that a former prime minister of Niger, Ibrahim Assane Mayaki, was unaware of any sales contract with Iraq, but said that in June 1999 a businessman approached him, insisting that he meet with an Iraqi delegation to discuss "expanding commercial relations" between Niger and Iraq --- which Mayaki interpreted to mean they wanted to discuss yellowcake sales. A report CIA officials drafted after debriefing Wilson said that "although the meeting took place, Mayaki let the matter drop due to UN sanctions on Iraq."

According to the former Niger mining minister, Wilson told his CIA contacts, Iraq tried to buy 400 tons of uranium in 1998.

Still, it was the CIA that bore the brunt of the criticism of the Niger intelligence. The panel found that the CIA has not fully investigated possible efforts by Iraq to buy uranium in Niger to this day, citing reports from a foreign service and the U.S. Navy about uranium from Niger destined for Iraq and stored in a warehouse in Benin.

W-tenacious,

Anyone with half a brain can easily dispute that liberal website. As stated even in the washington Post, Wilson stated that Iraq was inquiring about yellowcake.

Nuclear,

Nice try to skip the point of Wilson's testimony. He was originally supposed to claim that Iraq had nuclear weapons, he was part of the lie.

It was then turned around and used to discredit wilson later.

However, his claims remain founded in facts. As globalpolicy.ca confirms the IAEA and several agencies were able to show that the documents were forgeries.

Once it was dictated they were forgeries, the claim was dropped. The lie remained. They still said Uranium was in Iraq. Wilson didn't help them after the attack on his wife and the lie is in the record.

W-tenacious

W-tenacious,

Diebold... yep another one of your liberal myths.... Yep look everyone... I made a SECRET plan to steal votes and what do I do??? I tell the world about it. Why is it that at every political rally I've ever been at or seen, the end person says "(Insert location) will bring victory to (insert name)" but when the head of Diebold says it at a rally, he's stealing the election... Just more hysterical ranting by liberals.

W-tenacious. Do you also believe that Bush had the planes crash into the WTC, that he had Wellstone killed, that he has a weather machine, that he was selected not elected? How deep does your paranoia run?

OK, Nuclear, that's quite a writeup. I'll state now that I'm skeptical of the W Post as an unbiased news source (as I generally am of Fox) and the term "bipartisan" has come to mean nothing of the sort under this administration. I'm not saying this information is a lie, but I don't fully trust either source (Post or committee) and wonder if it is mis-emphasized or misstated. I'd like to know more but don't really have time right now to dig deeper. How bipartisan was this committee? Doesn't the focus on whether Plame did or did not recommend her husband (and whether he is lying about that) seem a bit misplaced and overemphasized? I've worked in separate agencies from a former wife of mine who might have said Bob could do this or that to certain persons and I'd never have known. Even if I had known I might not recall later because sometimes that sort of thing doesn't seem important enough for long-term storage.

Oh yes, btw, I want it clear that I don't really trust the upper echelon of Democrats either. They may not be neocon idealists but many of them are corporate whores who can be kept in line by the neocons through that vehicle.

"Nice try to skip the point of Wilson's testimony. He was originally supposed to claim that Iraq had nuclear weapons, he was part of the lie."

WHAT??? Wilson was supposed to lie for Bush? Do you have any proof of that or is that just more delusional fantasies?

Not sure what you mean, no one has to believe Bush shot planes into the WTC to know there was a coverup.

Just read the facts: There was a coverup. That is the point of it all.

Coverup about 9/11: Original commission report is lies

As for the truth about Diebold....I'm not sure how much more obvious you can get. The technicans are all far-right hacks as far as anyone knows, and they openly left a backdoor hack into their machines to steal the votes.

Why does this take a conspiracy? All it takes is a few guys who want to screw with the election.

See this document of facts. There's no conspiracy, there is simply election workers stealing elections.

Diebold

Its become a common known fact elections are getting stolen. Its not any liberal ordained conspiracy or anything else.

Why would you leave the backdoor to your house unlocked, knowing that everything can be stolen? Why would you leave Diebold in the front room counting all of your votes, especially if it could be given over to a terrorist?

It doesn't make sense. There's no genius required to understand Diebold has no business in elections. Use common sense.

W-tenacious

Chembob,

NYPost, Washington Times, Fox News are definetely right tilting. New York Times, Washington Post, LA Times lean to the left along with most MSM. News sources hardly ever lie (except for Krugman). The bias is more on how much the news gets reported. For example, the NY Times might report that "Wilson says Bush lies about Iraq attempting to buy Uranium" and write 50 stories about it in two weeks but when they find out that Wilson told the CIA (The CIA wrote notes on the debriefing) that Iraq did inquire about buying yellowcake, they bury the story on page 12a. Did the New York Times lie? Nope, they just hid the bad news on page 12.

OBTW... if Wilson was telling the truth, why did Kerry drop Mr. "Truthteller" from the election team as soon as proof that Wilson lied came out?

And yes, the 911 commision was truly bipartisan. The democrats wanted to make sure there was no whitewash so they got the people they wanted on the commision.

Stealing elections is old hat, been done for ages in local and state elections and attempted (at least) in Presidential elections (something far too important to leave to cheats or chance) and I think it is likely that the past two have been somewhat less than honest. Look at the indictments that are occurring in Ohio even as we speak. Consider that every study by universities and university/newspaper consortia has shown that Gore won both the popular vote and the electoral college. It was either deliberate malfeasance or major fucking up in Bush's favor. Be that as it may, it is now known (and was known by insiders for a while) that there is a back door into the Diebold machines. Whether that was exploited, I have no idea.

But the important point here is this. Neocons are liars and cheats. This is because, fundamentally, they consider the rest of us to be somehow less than them. Financially, intellectually, you name it. They consider themselves elite. They consider lying to us to be the norm because we can't possibly understand their lofty dreams and goals. So, irrespective of whether the elections were stolen outright or not, it has worked in their favor. They have stolen Congress, subverted the Presidency, and are now about to take over the Supreme Court. Then the attacks on both foreign soil and our liberties and finances will begin in earnest. We haven't seen anything yet unless we can stop them.

Whew I'm getting tired. I need to get a beer or glass of wine or something and let this go. You have to admit, I think, those of us who are still debating this here want the same thing essentially, the free democratic republic that the founders tried to give us. We just disagree to a large extent, I think, about the motives of those in power with regard to attaining this ideal. I don't think they have our best interest at heart. Clearly you, Nuclear, believe that they do. I wish you were correct for all our sakes.

{ed note: “Darnelle” aka Rev Goober T. Bass/Mullah Gomer/geeter/Old Jones/bonczaar/Cletus/Junior Johnson/mary beth/Sean/ Larry Bellovin/etc. --- Deleted due to repeated, flagrant violations of the very few rules we have here: Insulting other commenters, posting under different names, etc.}

Thanks for words, chembob

Nuclear,

You might be interested in this read then concerning Wilson's motivations.

Wilson had said the former prime minister visited Iraq, intent on acquiring nuclear uranium

Wilson supported the lie before he was against it. This is why the proper label is "flip flop".

But, Joe Wilson was deceived by the shills in the government. Once it was proven they were forgeries, Wilson investigated and blew the whistle.

Wilson is not perfect at all, he's a selfish man who doesn't support either side. He is out for number 1: Wilson.

But Wilson's claims are NOT discredited and are further correct: The uranium was NOT ever sought.

The forgeries were PLANTED by neocon advisors. And the basis for the war WAS lies.

Everyone backed this up. So Wilson is not the authority on Iraq lies.

W-tenacious

Nukulur Kemmist #198, just linked to a story written by Susan Schmidt, who [snip] is known, happily among DC Republicans and not so happily among DC Democrats, as what you might call the "Mikey" (a la Life Cereal fame) of the DC press corps., especially when the cereal is coming from Republican staffers. [snip] **MORE**

But, he didn't post the link to the article that included the CORRECTION:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
CORRECTION TO THIS ARTICLE:
In some editions of the Post, a July 10 story on a new Senate report on intelligence failures said that former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV told his contacts at the CIA that Iraq had tried to buy 400 tons of uranium from the African nation of Niger in 1998. In fact, it was Iran that was interested in making that purchase, but no contract was signed, according to the report.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
An errant WaPo reporter by the name of Susan Schmidt

stuck her byline on an error-filled report July 10 claiming 'Wilson's assertions --- both about what he found in Niger and what the Bush administration did with the information --- were undermined yesterday in a bipartisan Senate intelligence committee report' and that 'Wilson told his CIA contacts, Iraq tried to buy 400 tons of uranium in 1998' and 'that a CIA official told the Senate committee that [Wilson's wife Valerie] Plame "offered up" Wilson's name for the Niger trip.'

Wrong on all counts.

1. It wasn't "Iraq" but 'Iran' that Wilson discovered had tried to buy the 400 tons of uranium. WaPo has since issued a "correction" which can be viewed on the right-hand side of the same web page Schmidt's article in all of its original calumny appears.

2. It wasn't the "bipartisan Senate intelligence committee report" that asserted Plame had recommended Wlson, but a minority report of 'three Republicans --- [Pat] Roberts and Sens. Orrin Hatch of Utah and Kit Bond of Missouri.' Schmidt neglected to mention that this claim actually appears in an appendix to the report which was not endorsed by the committee. WaPo has not issued a "correction" of this deceit.

3. In any event, the Roberts-Hatch-Bond fable being so dutifully peddled as 'news' without a second thought by Ms. Schmidt is total bunkum. (By the way --- whatever happened to I.F. Stone's reminder to young journalists that 'governments lie'?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Salon.com reports:
JOSEPH WILSON VS. THE RIGHT-WING CONSPIRACY

[snip] Gleeful conservatives insist the Senate Intelligence Committee report impeached the former ambassador's claims about Iraq and uranium. But Wilson is firing back.

........ The report also quotes an internal CIA memo written by Wilson's wife, Plame, stating: "my husband has good relations with both the PM (prime minister) and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity." Based on Plame's internal memo and other evidence, three Republicans --- Roberts and Sens. Orrin Hatch of Utah and Kit Bond of Missouri --- wrote additional views appended to the report, concluding that "the plan to send the former ambassador to Niger was suggested" by Plame. The three GOP senators criticized their Democratic counterparts on the panel for refusing to endorse this conclusion.

In his letter to the committee, Wilson disputed the Republican senators' characterization. "There is no suggestion or recommendation in that statement that I be sent on the trip," he wrote. A CIA spokeswoman declined to comment. In an interview, Wilson said that his wife was stating facts about his background, not pushing that he go to Niger.

The Washington Post story, meanwhile, took the disputed Senate report conclusions even further. It stated in its lead that Wilson was "specifically recommended for the mission by his wife ... contrary to what he has said publicly." In the interview, Wilson argued that . He said he has written a letter of protest to the Post.

The Post article also contained one acknowledged error: In trying to build a case that Wilson's Niger trip had actually bolstered the administration's claims, Schmidt wrote that Wilson had told the CIA that Iraq had tried to buy 400 tons of uranium from Niger in 1998. In fact, it was Iran that Wilson said had tried to make the purchase, as the Senate report states. The Post ran a correction. [snip]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Wilson Fires Back

Ambassador Joe Wilson's Letter to the Senate Select Intelligence Committee

A BUZZFLASH GUEST CONTRIBUTION
by Ambassador Joe Wilson

Ambassador Joe Wilson forwarded to BuzzFlash his response to the Senate Select Intelligence Committee's "conclusions" about his efforts to expose the truth about the phony Niger claims, and how he came to investigate them.

He asked that we share his evidence with our readers.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BUILD IT AGAIN, only BIGGER since it was stolen so easilly last time.

Everytime it is messed with, rebuild it BIGGER still.

Where do I donate for the rebuilding?

You are welcome, Colleen; thank you so much Kira! The beauty of a blog like this is, because it is impossible for one person to know/remember everything, someone can always step forward to fill in the gaps and corrections to statements. You did a great job on this Kira.

I managed to get home and I have a nice glass of deep red zinfandel at my right elbow as I type. Feeling much more relaxed now.

So, OK. What was the last thing I said....Ok, "I wish you were correct for all our sakes." Notice that I said I wish Nuclear was correct for all our sakes, not that I hope he is correct. I have NO hope that he is correct. I am certain that he is 100% incorrect, actually, not deliberately or maliciously, but because his information sources are incomplete, undocumented and he wants to believe in the goodness of our leaders, whose badness is complete and well documented. What I'm beginning to wonder about is whether the Mayans were correct, ending their calendar in the year 2012. Between the neocons, the avian flu, the new Bushite nuclear doctrine and the fact that most scientists believe that global warming has crossed the "tipping point" one has to wonder.

Also to add to that.....Wilson's refutation of the Uranium has never been awcknowledged by the GOP Congress.

This shows they are liars and fully capable accomplices to the crime. The entire congress must be impeached of these filthy traitors.

And by the way, Pat Roberts and friends won't even probe the memo....Because they're bought and paid for by the neocons. They whitewash everything.

This blood is on their hands, this treason and it will never be washed away. Not even long after they are ejected from office. Anyone who supports that treason and the Iraq war based on false, proven documented forgeries is an accomplice to the crime itself.

It would be assanine not to lock them all up. And indeed shackling as Henry Hyde so eloquently put it.

Have you read this outrageous report from Henry J. Hyde about the downing street minutes?

http://wwwc.house.gov/in.../109/Hyde0914HRes375.pdf

Condescending isn't the right word. He goes out of his way to put blood on his hands.

W-tenacious

Tenacious,

Anyone who doesn't understand what is going on should go and verse themselves in the literature of the 3rd Reich and the followers of Leon Trotsky. What is happening is an arrogant and deluded bastardized hybrid of the two. So the Bush supporters have both the Nazis and the Stalinists (basically) to thank for the policies they are endorsing and what is happening to us. I'm guessing that they've never read enough history or literature (Orwell for an obvious example) to understand what is being done or enough philosophy or religion to understand why it is so morally and logically wrong. Not being Jesus or Buddha, I personally have a hard time forgiving them for their ignorance and willingness to be herded about.

I'll go read the Hyde report now and see if I remember whether I've read it before. There is just so much information about all of this it is overwhelming. This must be an historical amassing of information, thanks to the internet.

There is absolutely no summary reason, any member of Congress should dare to dismiss the downing street minutes as though it was madeup by some anonymous source.

The source is nothing less than Michael J. Smith and the United Kingdom government, Downing Street.

Why in the world we americans, can let Congressional reps get away with this nonsense is simply deplorable.

They need to be locked up. Locked up as accomplices to the crime. It doesn't matter what Fitzgerald does. Congress who supports this treason must be locked up also, we must see to it that every last one of them is locked up.

I ain't no senators son. It's time this group of Nixon-ites go down in flames. I'm not going to any bullshit war based on treasonous lies.

We don't need this callous, corporate idiot behavior anymore. Conyers proved that to the world. Its time we do away with it once and for all. Judges be damned. We are the judges of our own selves, not some crony like Roberts. We own the courts.

Lets act like it. Stand up and count your freedoms and fight them to the last ditch.

W-tenacious

All of you are great! Lots of really good info on this thread. It's true what they say .. "it takes a village ... "

Special thanks to Nukular Kemmist who inspired us all to stay late to educate!

See ya later!
Kira

What in the WORLD happened exactly, the ultimate coverup???

Mohammed Atta was allowed to initiate 9/11 attacks, neo-con cells in the pentagon covered up the information and deleted records.

Hello hello.....the lid is blowing off!!!

W-tenacious

Chembob,

"Consider that every study by universities and university/newspaper consortia has shown that Gore won both the popular vote and the electoral college."

Sorry to have to bring the truth to you Chembob:
www.washingtonpost.com

Florida Recounts Would Have Favored Bush
But Study Finds Gore Might Have Won Statewide Tally of All Uncounted Ballots

By Dan Keating and Dan Balz
Washington Post Staff Writers
Monday, November 12, 2001; Page A01

In all likelihood, George W. Bush still would have won Florida and the presidency last year if either of two limited recounts --- one requested by Al Gore, the other ordered by the Florida Supreme Court --- had been completed, according to a study commissioned by The Washington Post and other news organizations...

So, you were saying???

Karl Rove in total Denial: See Fat Karl!

Also interesting to note.....Karl Rove is sputtering around like an idiot, he claims Cindy Sheehan and the Anti-War movement are "clowns" and that they have not one serious congressman backing them.
www.huffingtonpost.com

Would this sad fatass be saying such things, from the comfy luxury of prison? And all those lies, all that spinning...it must be tough on the kidney stones to be a known traitor!!!!

Rove is afraid of Sheehan, that's all there is to it. And its funny to point this out....Sheehan isn't far off the mark about "Occupied" New Orleans.

Did you know FEMA is having United States troops line the streets all over New Orleans?

Why the hell would the military be all over New Orleans now? What is their purpose, and what is the purpose of the FEMA camps? That's total bullshit as far as I can tell.

We all should question why US troops are occupying new orleans.....Especially when that's the state's job.

W-tenacious

Who's the idiot??? World Tenacious thinks the neocons allowed 911 to happen.

Keep up the good work guys and gals. This type of hysterical thinking and paranioa will keep us republicans in power for years and years

Yeesh!

They Let it Happen

March 12, 2005

[snip] Let's face it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to put the evidence together. They Let it happen. 9-11 was not only preventable, but allowed to happen.

... When George Bush was appointed to the Presidency, one of his first acts was to demote and reassign the man that President Clinton had promoted to a cabinet level position as terrorism czar. Under the Clinton presidency, this man, Richard Clarke, held weekly cabinet level meetings specifically on the threat of Osama Bin Laden. Those meetings we subsequently cancelled and Dick Cheney himself has been quoted as saying "Richard Clarke was kept "out of the loop".

Shortly before her performance for the 9-11 commission, (7) Rice wrote a March 22, 2004 column in The Washington Post (8) that said "No al-Qaeda threat was turned over to the new administration,". However, a January 25, 2001 memo penned by Richard Clarke (9) clearly states "We urgently need such a principals-level review on the al-Qaeda network" "We urgently need such a principals-level review on the al-Qaeda network" (9.5). Under oath, testifying before the 9-11 Commission, Condoleeza Rice claimed "...no one could have imagined planes being used a weapons..." (page 12) (10). We had a reference to the August 6th Presidential Daily Briefing entitled "Bin Laden determined to attack inside the United States". Rice referred to this as an "historical document'. We were led to believe that this was the only warning. It comes out now, that she was lying. Lying 52 times (11) over. It has now been learned that Condi didn't disclose that they had, in fact, received 52 warnings (12) in the months leading up to September 11th. Yes, Condi lied under oath to a Congressional commission. With our knowledge of this administration's penchant for people willing to lie to Congress, it comes as no surprise that this National Security advisor who lied to Congress and oversaw the worst lapse of national security in the history of this country would now be promoted to Secretary of state. [snip]

I know - it's hard to believe until you take the time to actually read everything you can get your hands on. Then the evidence piles up. You can't ignore it.

WHAT? The opposite is much more likely. Are you denying that neocon cells did not coverup the information on Mohammed Atta?

The proof is all there in writing and a republican no less, Curt Weldon, has shown that they knew.

And it means they did in fact ALLOW 9/11 to happen. What other assessment can you get from reading this?

http://www.dailykos.com/...ory/2005/9/17/14243/4608

Reading all of the articles and their witnesses....What kind of response do you get? Its obvious to anyone withe yes what the government did before 9/11.

W-tenacious

OK World Tenacious, since you are starting to put the pieces together, I might as well tell you our plans.

I work at a nuclear power plant. We have taken technology developed from Area 51 alien spacecraft that we have hidden there and modified our reactor. What we do is focus our neutron and gamma radiation into a beam and shoot it up into space where we have an orbiting satellite. From there, we can target anything we want. We first used it to take out Wellstone's plane (that was hard hitting a moving taget let me tell you!!!). We decided to modify it and up the power. Unfortunately it was a little too strong and we caused the tsunami in Indonesia. We did get it perfected and used it to heat the water in the ocean and steer Katrina to New Orleans. Why did we do this you ask? Well, we needed New Orleans evacuated because underneath New Orleans is OIL!!!!!! We have Halliburton installing oil rigs in abandoned buildings as we speak. We have the national guard stationed so people won't see us installing the oil rigs. Us neocons are going to be RICH!!! Hint: buy Nevada property, the San Andreas fault is next on our list.

This is not a laughing matter, like I say, its time to take the 9/11 coverup seriously.

It doesn't matter if both democrats/republicans sponsored the 9/11 commission: They whitewashed it.

There was numerous things not on the commission, not reported, including Able Danger.

It was a COVERUP.

So what really happened on 9/11? All americans deserve the truth. And there is precedent to get the truth out if neocons in the pentagon, deliberately covered the names of terrorists and deleted evidence.

Do you not see how serious this is? It is no longer some "out there" conspiracy. It takes alot of study I admit, to believe that 9/11 was a coverup.

But it definitely was a coverup and someone allowed the terrorists to run around free. WHY did they do it, and HOW?

Read project for new american century.

New American Century

We all hear about how nutty Michael Moore is, he doesn't even pale in comparison to these nutjobs. They asked for a "NEW PEARL HARBOR" for the neocon/israeli order to take over and gain oil.

Boy, what a smashing group. And 9/11 was a pearl harbor event right? So why the hell was Jack Abramoff, Mohammed Atta, and everyone else walking around when they were known terrorists? Why no arrests? Why no answers from the pentagon?

Its easy to get the picture here. Not coincidence theorists.....Only the most crazy coincidence theorists think 9/11 was on the up and up.

A conspiracy yes, but it is OBVIOUS if you read all the facts!

W-tenacious

W-tenacious,

Oh, I agree that an investigation needs to be done and heads roll if there was any coverup. It's funny how liberals ignored Able Danger until there was a possibility that neocons were involved. Why wasn't it an issue with you when it might have been traced back to Clinton?????????

W-tenacious,

Oh, I agree that an investigation needs to be done and heads roll if there was any coverup. It's funny how liberals ignored Able Danger until there was a possibility that neocons were involved. Why wasn't it an issue with you when it might have been traced back to Clinton?????????

Please. The Clinton card is so passe.

Look --- the world has changed drastically since w. took office and you can't deny that. It has not changed for the better in any way. If you say it has, you're not being honest.

Yes --- people of all political persuasions are becoming more active. It's time for a huge change. W. is the WORST pResident EVER.

Can't speak for that one. I don't really think Clinton is part of the solution, I've never thought that.

I think some of these neo-liberals like Clinton are in on it with the neocons.

Nevertheless, it wasn't Clinton's responsibility to know the details. Richard Clarke and the FBI were supposed to track these terrorists.

But, as evidenced the pentagon covered up these actions and didn't allow Clarke, nor Clinton nor Tom Henagan or anyone else to know about it.

And in their usual "fool me" attitude, they employed people like Karl Rove to shred documents.

Make no mistake, Weldon was first to bring up Able Danger's existence. But it goes far beyond a Clinton/Bush boondoggle to the existence of a neocon cell in the pentagon.

I believe the neocon cell is AIPAC. I believe america is unwilling to deal with these terrorists, in and around the state department, because of some sad devotion to Israel and Turkey and Pakistan.

And I have no idea WHY every time its brought up the issue is labeled anti-semitic something or another. It is very simple, cut and dry what this is. These neocon zionists plotted a takeover.

They used the conservatives and liberals for their agenda. They wanted Iraq/Iran/Syria/Lebanon and everyone else OUT of the middle east years ago. They wanted to get rid of yugoslavia years ago. They wanted control of all those oil pipes years ago....

They are traitors to the country. They are "NOT" jewish. I don't believe for a second any of these cons are truly jewish. They betrayed that role years ago. Tony Blair talked about them as a council of psychotic freemasons.

I think he's correct. Heads need to roll with the AIPAC group and its cronies in Bush administration.

W-tenacious

Who's not being honest now? If Iraq does become stable and democracy comes to the middle east, he could be known as one of the greatest presidents ever.

*picturing Bush's mug on Mount Rushmore*

Careful, don't spray pop on your keyboard

Who's not being honest now? If Iraq does become stable and democracy comes to the middle east, he could be known as one of the greatest presidents ever.

*picturing Bush's mug on Mount Rushmore*

Careful, don't spray pop on your keyboard

KIRA

Notice that if you take the term PNAC, and drop N and add an I and then an A.....What do you get?

AIPAC

Why has this never been reported in the media at all? AIPAC=PNAC. Which is sadly the same thing as JINSA, which is all an arm of the American Enterprise Institute if thats what they call it. And there's a whole bunch of delegates from multiple countries engaged in terrorism!

See Castro's address to the U.N. He confirmed that Cheney's cronies were selling nuclear arms worldwide. If they sell it, and have proliferation....That gives them the exscuse to attack, destroy and wipe out another nation for oil before 2006 even sees the light of day.

Luckily, the U.N knows Bolton's tricks. He will be stopped, right?

W-tenacious

W-t,

Sandy Berger ISN'T sitting in the brink, he was only fined $50,000 and had his security clearence revoked for three years. Just in time to work in the new democratic administation IF they win.

Wow some truth here. You have to be fireing DU rounds for them to be hurting you and we fire them at Armor so if the enemy had no armor. It is not fired so it is no longer an issue other then for the libs to bash the president.

COMMENT #167 [link]
...NuclearChemist said on 9/17/2005 @ 3:40pm PT...

NCOCDR, DU is just that. It has very very small amounts of radioactive uranium in it. It is an alpha emitter. Alpha's are highly charged particles but because they are so highly charged, they don't even get through the outer layers of your skin. The dust from DU though can get into your lungs were there are no dead cells to protect them. That is the only radioactive concern about DU.

237 HCOC

Yes I read what Nuclear had to say. But common sense should tell you that it is NOT the only radioactive concern of DU.
How much is a small amount? How weak is DU? How do you measure it? How many tons of this toxic poison is needed to cause concern, 300 tons, 3000 tons? At what point do you think it will become a hazard? Why the cover-up?

And I ask again, have you ever heard about Gulf War Syndrome? Or just any damn adverse effects of DU, that's being used by this government.

I don't think your friend is a nuclearchemist.

And don't insult me, there is clear evidence of it's use.

Hmmm, I went to bed and missed some action here. I've got to do some work because I'm self-employed so you won't hear much from me today but I have this for you--

I love how you guys (Nuc and HBO) defend every last thing the Bush assholes do. I've never ever done that with any President, whether I support them or not. Don't toss Clinton back at me, there were a lot of things I didn't like about him.

OK, regarding U toxicity (not as much alpha activity although there is some here; an aside...Nuc, don't you know about this stuff since you're a Nukular Kemist). Here ya go, the address first:

http://myweb.brooklyn.li...ce/duproject/litsum3.pdf

Three excerpts from the 42 pg document...

URANIUM TOXICITY LITERATURE
with Commentaries by Glen D. Lawrence
Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, Long Island University
Brooklyn, NY 11201, USA

"Uranium (uranyl salts) has been used for more than 40 years to stain DNA for electron microscopy. Other stains were favored by electron microscopists, which may be due to the more recent findings (1990s) that uranyl ion can catalyze hydrolysis of DNA (strand breaks) in the presence of light. The binding of DNA to nucleic acids and nucleotides and its catalysis of chemical modification of these molecules would clearly implicate this heavy metal as a cytotoxin."

"The following papers show that uranium (in various forms) can cause chromosomal damage and genetic aberrations, such as increases in sister chromatid exchanges and micronuclei formation, which are indicative of DNA strand breaks. These changes are often implicated in carcinogenesis. Increased strand breaks in germ cells (sperm and ova) can lead to greater risk of birth defects in offspring."

"The following articles show that radiation damage can induce signals in cells that are sent to neighboring cells that have not received direct radiation. This “bystander effect” can result in far more cellular damage than expected for the number of cells that are directly hit by ?-particles. This information has been neglected in most arguments suggesting that internalized depleted uranium would not have sufficient radiation effects to produce a significant increase in cancers. These papers discuss the implications of this effect for radon gas exposure, but it would also apply to ?-particles emitted by any radioactive element, including uranium or plutonium. It was argued “If DNA damage were to occur in bystander cells in vivo, and these cells survived such damage, these results would impact significantly on the assessment of cancer risk initiated by low fluence exposures to ?-radiation.” [Azzam et al., PNAS, 98, 478, 2001, see below] Furthermore, cells that may die from such exposures can potentially promote tumor growth."

Has anyone else wondered that with our Special Op guys and you all know we have them. That Saddam couldn't have been taken out instead of marching an army into Iraq. The results would have been better, nothing to rebuild, still influence Iraq government, still got our hands on the oil.

And a whole lot cheaper.

And my second question can't you be Republican or Democrat or Independent and still think your party could be improved or your party has made some mistakes?

#224 Nuclear....loved your post. I think you are on to something with the NO stuff. Guess I would only disagree with the part about being 'rich'. There is a big difference IMHO between being 'rich' and being 'wealthy' ie: millioniare-zillionaire. I hope your 401k is doing well. BTW, I also think you are onto something regarding the California quake. Keep on giving us 'insider' info.

Merifour, a big hello to you!

Last night I was reading old threads (to catch up since I got back from vacation) and I stumbled upon many comments you made. And - I want to give you a ((((HUG!))) Thank you! Because your comments gave me a great and good energy last night ... something I haven't felt in a long time since I recognized the neoCON people who are wielding power over this country and what their intent really is. It was a long overdue, pleasant sleep I had

I agree with most everything you said re life, death, infinity, the struggle, the illusion, & so forth. One almost needs to look no further than to the dynamic of a molecule to see the broader picture and implications.

I think I'm in the "gathering information" stage, too. But I still have trouble with the "illusion" part --- especially when thinking about the people in Louisiana & Mississippi. When you drop a rock on your toe - it's hard to believe it's just an illusion! Maybe it's the great attachment that brings such power.

Anyway - thank you, again! Hope you hang here for awhile!

To clarify .. I said: "Maybe it's the great attachment that brings such power" and wanted it to mean - that brings such power of belief in pain. Oh ... I'm in a hurry now and can't state it any better. Hope you understand or maybe can say it better for me!

Cheers!

RE: Karl Rove calling Cindy a clown...

Our kids are dying to bring democracy to Iraq, so we are told, but the very same people supporting this war are denying democracy to those in opposition.

I remember seeing video of Martin Luther King marching in Chicago and the hate filled screams of the whites and throwing of garbage and MLK was just walking with his followers down a street ! Not hurting anything, not destroying anything.

Then during Vietnam, the Peace group would be just walking and singing...and again obscenities being screamed, garbage being thrown, violence.
Americans fighting Americans over the right to speak. While 58,000 Americans were dying.

Surely some of you Bush supporters would hate to be considered part of this group that can only speak with 4 letter words and violence. You all need to speak out, don't let the illiterate ones drag you down to their level.

Those of us who keep saying 58,000 died in Vietnam, only say this so IT DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN. Yes, we have to have some troops in Iraq to clean up what we have destroyed, but bring the rest, the National Guard, the Reserves, the guys Stop Lossed home now ! They have more than paid their dues.

#243 Kira, thank you for your Kind words . I have been on some mini vacations lately, 2-3 days and have been away from this wonderful site I was led to. I too, have spent so many hours getting caught up. I love the intelligence and brilliance of (most) the people that post here. I have been so busy in the last few years, reading about all the atrocities of the Neocons. I choose my reading list from the Best Seller list and in that respect I know I am not alone. I had few people to share with that were as passionate about the 'state of the union' as I was.

One day I noticed Cindy and started looking on the net. I didn't even know what a 'blog' was. I had pretty much turned off my computer for a few years. My husband got cancer in '98 and I was consumed by that naturally and then got back on track when the election was stolen in 2000.

I feel so blessed to have found all these sites and as I am late in arriving at least I am aware (from reading) of alot of the subjects being posted here. I am learning so much on subjects I haven't yet explored and it is very overwhelming. Time is speeding up and the information is coming so fast now. Summer is my outside time and August and September have been spent on my computer!

I haven't read a newspaper in weeks or watched the talking heads. I am getting my news here. My husband is feeling neglected so I am doing a real balancing act but I love this Country and am so ashamed of what it has become. I will keep coming back!

W-t

"And in their usual "fool me" attitude, they employed people like Karl Rove to shred documents. "

I thought that was Sandy Burgler's job...

#230:

Well, considering this has been the bloodiest week in Iraq since the US invaded --- it sounds like a hollow dream.

Don't worry - no pop got sprayed.

#232:

The US has been selling WMD around the world for many, many years. People do need to study to understand why the the US is hated in the ME. It is time to move our military presence out. It's the reason for the Jihad.

It was Sandy Berger's job until he was arrested. Sandy Berger is sitting in the brink, now its Karl Rove's turn for doing even worse crimes.

And I wonder just how many other intelligence assets have been compromised?

Why did George Tenet get blamed for everything? Questions, and no answers......We will need to get those answers...

W-tenacious

#244, Kira, your comment did not show up until I 'refreshed' (getting to know my way around). Illusion....a good topic. I believe we have been thoroughly programmed to believe a person's worth is measured by their wealth. Illusion. Websters defines illusion as 'a mistaken perception or belief' (mundane meaning I know but will take it for now). I believe we have as a society been manupilated to our very core. We have been taught what is appropiate and what is not. We have been told to follow the leader....I remember it as a game as a child. Now I am an adult and I really question if the 'leader' wants me to follow him off the cliff. Many who comment on this site are doing just what they were programmed to do.
The examples of programming are endless and would take up much time so will end with that short one.

Esoterically Illusion means something quite different. My belief is that what we are experiencing on this earth plane is the result of our own creative mind processes. We are using the free flowing consciousness of the cosmos and creating this reality...why? So each of us being part of the creative mind can come face to face with our own defects, overcome them, and once again reunite with the Creator, God, Architect of the Universe, (whatever one wishes to call it/she/him etc.) I believe that the majority of us have not even gotten to kindergarten yet as far as spiritual evolution. Love is the key that opens the door (not as defined in fundamental literature ie: bush born again BS ). The great sages of the centuries have preached this very simple message.

I will close now as I am so off topic but I will say a quote I came across years ago and totally believe:
"We are spiritual beings trying to act human, not the other way around."

P.S I will qualify that these are MY beliefs and I have SO much yet to learn!

Stolen? STOLEN?!?

I protest sir! Surely you mean 'foraged' or 'found'?

I mean whoever took the boots, for example, is obviously going to donate them to needy Nawlinsers currently 'having a fantastic time' in Texas.

Oh my, Merifour! We do think alike and have very similar understanding. Your quote is one I use quite often!

Now - back to politics & see how we can mesh our understanding with some kind of action that will be beneficial to the people & the planet!

Oh, obviously, Partridge! But, the Astrodome is "working so well for them," maybe they won't even "need" those boots. Under Barbara's caring wing.

Methinks the trolls have left the building.

Nana,

Yes I actually am a Nuclear chemist and I do work at a nuclear plant. The uranium oxide ceramic pellets are installed in zircalloy that make up the fuel rods. For that reason, we don't have any exposure to uranium dust. It is my job to monitor the reactor core for fission products in the coolant to determine if there has been and cracks or breaks in the fuel rod.

Depleted uranium is what is left over when most of the highly radioactive types (isotopes) of uranium are removed for use as nuclear fuel or nuclear weapons. The depleted uranium used in armor-piercing munitions and in enhanced armor protection for some Abrams tanks is also used in civilian industry, primarily for stabilizers in airplanes and boats.

Depleted uranium is a heavy metal that is also slightly radioactive. Heavy metals (uranium, lead, tungsten, etc.) have chemical toxicity properties that, in high doses, can cause adverse health effects. Depleted uranium that remains outside the body can not harm you.

A common misconception is that radiation is depleted uranium's primary hazard. This is not the case under most battlefield exposure scenarios. Depleted uranium is approximately 40 percent less radioactive than natural uranium. Depleted uranium emits alpha and beta particles, and gamma rays. Alpha particles, the primary radiation type produced by depleted uranium, are blocked by skin, while beta particles are blocked by the boots and battle dress utility uniform (BDUs) typically worn by service members. While gamma rays are a form of highly-penetrating energy , the amount of gamma radiation emitted by depleted uranium is very low. Thus, depleted uranium does not significantly add to the background radiation that we encounter every day.

When fired, or after "cooking off" in fires or explosions, the exposed depleted uranium rod poses an extremely low radiological threat as long as it remains outside the body. Taken into the body via metal fragments or dust-like particles, depleted uranium may pose a long-term health hazard to personnel if the amount is large. However, the amount which remains in the body depends on a number of factors, including the amount inhaled or ingested, the particle size and the ability of the particles to dissolve in body fluids.

http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/faq_17apr.htm

Thank you NuclearChemist, for the information. I have a couple concerns and questions.
I thought DU particles were insoluble. And if the soldiers are protected by their skin and clothing, why does the Army manual give instructions to wear masks and protective garments when near contaminated ground or machinery, and why don't the commanders provide protetive gear.Didn't NATO send the following to the commanders; "Inhalation of insoluble DU dust particles has been associated with long-term health effects, including cancer and birth defects.
CERRIE Majority Report (UK Dept of Health) says you can not compare DU to what you get every year from natural radiation or cosmic rays. And official radiation risk agencies quantify risk in terms of dose, however, CERRIE reports 'dose' means nothing, once it's inside.
Can you comment on that?about dose meaning nothing.

I'm also reading some material that has this quote from Alexandra Miller, US Armed Forces, Radiobiology Institute

"People have always assumed low doses are not much of a problem, but they can cause more damage than people think"

Yet the Pentagon continues with their "don't look, don't find" policy. I think thats criminal.

RE: DEPLETED URANIUM

Independent Study on Persian Gulf Veterans Confirms DU Exposure

Depleted Uranium

Blessings upon you all.

Nana, did you see my post #240, above, where I gave a link to a reference and 3 excerpts about the health effects of DU?

OK, this is a little of what I remember about the dose issue, highly simplified (I'm an environmental geochemist, dealing with cleaning up pollution, not a toxicologist). Regarding an inhaled "dose" into your lungs: One of the big problems with inhaling an emitting isotope is that the particle can become lodged in the alveolar tissues of your lung. Around the alveoli are a network of capillaries (pulmonary capillaries) having a single cell thickness. This is where the oxygen molecules are transferred into the blood through diffusion. Clearly this is a sensitive, important, living part of the organism. Once lodged in the alveoli, the radioactive particle is stuck there and, whether alpha particle, beta or gamma ray emission keeps hitting the cells next to the particle over and over with the emission. OK, I went and found a good quote on the consequences: "Insoluble particles will continue to irradiate surrounding tissues until cleared from the respiratory tract. This will cause inflammation and result in fibrosis and scarring." (Threat of Radiologic Terrorism Increases, Unfamiliar Patient Care and Safety Issues Mandate Preparedness, by Paul D. Mongan, MD, LTC MC, Cynthia Shields, MD, LTC MC, and Darin Via, MD, LCDR MC).

Interesting that this article concerns itself with terrorists spreading radiation in the US when it is actually the US spreading the depleted uranium in other countries. We have become the country that we were warned to fear when we were children. Sad.

Thanks ChemBob, yes I'm working on the link slowly, but I'll finish! You've been a big help.

And thank you Kira, for your link also, I'll read it first thing in AM .

Nite you wonderful people!

Kira,

Particles/radiation is given off ONLY when an atom decays. Half life is the amount it takes for one half of a given amount to decay. Example: Say you have 20 atoms of a certain isotope that has a half life of 1 year. After one year, you will only have 10 of the original left, the following year 5... If you had those atoms in your body, you would have had 10 ionizing events the first year.

Depleted Uranium is U-238. It has a half life of 4.47 billion years. There may also be trace amounts of U-235: 700 million years. U-234: 246,000 years. That is why they state that uranium is NOT very radioactive. Most of the stuff I work with decays in the millisecond to days range.

Uranium is in soil, food, clothes. You typically injest 0.07 to 1.1 micrograms a day (per the EPA). If you own plates made in Mexico, they typically are made with an uranium glaze. That's one way of making the kids stop scratich the plates with their knives and forks.

Dose: That is the amount of radiation your body receives. Say you get a chest xray. You probably recieved 50 mrem. Flying to New York to LA may get you 10 mrem. So far this year, I have received 72 mrem from working at a nuclear power plant.

Too much depleted uranium is the worst thing anyone can have......birth defects, cancer, aids, harpes, the works.

You name it, that happens. Sick, disgusting and horrid. No one should ever even talk about DU like its good, no one.

Doug E.

"""and why don't the commanders provide protetive gear"""

nana- every trooper in Iraq has whats called a j-list and gas mask for our protection from the DU. That we have not fired in 3 years.

is 3000 tons of DU an overdose for 25,000,000 people ?

creative disposal alternative ,speading it over there so we don't have to spead it over here...

NUCLEARCHEMIST howdy ,what happens if you heat DU in oxygen ,at say 2000 c ?

MMIIXX,

DU is actually Uranium Oxide. The melting point of regular uranium is 1,100 c but since it's in the oxide form, the melting point is probably higher. It won't burn if that is what you were asking.

Uranium naturally occurs in our environment at around 0.001%. So, if you take a meter3 of Iraq sand (1602 kg/m3), it already has 16 grams of Uranium in it.

3,000 tons of DU used in Iraq say that 10% of that went to dust = 3E8 grams. Iraq's land mass = 437E6 m2. Therefore if all the spent DU was evenly distibuted that would mean that the top meter3 of soil/sand went from having 16 grams of uranium in it to 16.7 grams.

If any of my math is wrong, I'm sorry, just got off the mid shift.

HCOC re.261

If DU is not hazardous to the troops and Iraqi people, why does the Army provide you with that expensive protection and training on how to use it?

What protection do they offer the Iraqi people?

Nuclearchemist re. dose

I understand that that radiation risk agencies quantify risk dose to warn the public about what is safe and what is not.

However, some in the scientific community are saying when speaking of internal risk of DU, "Dose means nothing" (see ChemBob's comments)

This is a whole new ball game. And it is scary.

HCOC re.261

If DU is not hazardous to the troops and Iraqi people, why does the Army provide you with that expensive protection and training on how to use it?

What protection do they offer the Iraqi people?

The gear also protects us from other chemical/biological/nuclear weapons like the ones the takfurest used the other day in North Iraq. You know, the ones they never had.

Yes, it seems we have sold them to the whole world, everyone seems to have them!

I must study now, goodbye.

HCOC re: 267

They've been brought in because the destabilization in Iraq made it easier. They weren't there before. Much as there is now terrorist training going on all over Iraq, which wasn't there before. If you are really there, HCOC, and I notice you didn't point out any pictures with your name on them, you are in grave danger and need to be brought home immediately. In fact, we made need to defend ourselves here since GWB has created terrorists in vast numbers because of his policies.

You probably aren't old enough to remember when Hussein was great friends with the Reaganites and Republicans, are you? The neocons supported him until his usefulness in one phase was depleted then set him up and used him to accomplish the next phase of their goals. With friends like these, who need enemies?

Chembob,

"Uranium (uranyl salts) has been used for more than 40 years to stain DNA for electron microscopy."

OK, are we talking about a salt which can easily get into a cell or uranium dioxide which I believe you yourself said was insoluable. Insoluable forms are unlikely to be incorporated.

Rem (roentgen equivalent man)

The rem is a unit used to derive a quantity called equivalent dose. This relates the absorbed dose in human tissue to the effective biological damage of the radiation. Not all radiation has the same biological effect, even for the same amount of absorbed dose. Equivalent dose is often expressed in terms of thousandths of a rem, or mrem. To determine equivalent dose (rem), you multiply absorbed dose (rad) by a quality factor (Q) that is unique to the type of incident radiation.

Those that say Dose means nothing have no idea what they are talking about. Dose actually is everything. Like I said before, we ingest about 1 micrograms of uranium a day. If Dose means nothing then, we should all be dead.

NYC has arrested Cindy, or stopped her rally, or something!!!!!!!!!!! Holy shit, we're all so do doomed.

http://nyc.indymedia.org/en/2005/09/57261.html

Nuc, #170, I believe they use highly soluble uranyl acetate for the staining. I didn't say it (maybe it was in something I referenced) but yes, both U3O8 and UO2 have low water solubility at neutral pH. But that has nothing to do with it if the U is lodged in your lung and continuously emitting.

Concerned, yes I saw that on a blog. She was speaking in a public park in NY City as I understand it. I'm sick of my country, to tell you the truth. We preach about liberty and democracy and personal freedoms to the rest of the world while we don't have them here.

I'm sure they're covered under the Patriot Act. They could probably hold her in jail for years.....

I'm pretty sure they didn't arrest her, but it's hard to find any news on it. Yes, it is very sad, life liberty and the pursuit of happiness....pffffft. Days gone by. Unless we can think of something.

Nuclearchemist thanks for your time and answer ,mainly I was wondering if under the heat of impact the DU in question would alter due to temperature and DU's is very reactive (yes).
Also the DU used is an "enriched" by-product of the nuke industry and would it be true to say that "it" is somewhat different that naturally ocurring uranium ie. unrefined.

16 grams in a CUBIC meter and .7 grams in a SQUARE meter ,say the .7 grams is to a depth of 1 mm ,would that make it 43763 times the amount of naturally ocurring uranium?

great to have your input on this.

270 NuclearChemist

Some would not agree that dose is everything. Some are out in the field looking at people, at what is actually going on, not theory, calculation or formula, but the rate of disease and death associated with low dose internal radiation. Kind of a 'HOLY COW , this is much worse than we THOUGHT " moment.

That is my understanding of 'dose means nothing'

What is it that the mayors, police and the feds don't understand about the following:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Do you suppose they'd even recognize it? Is there someway possible to make them understand that this is part of the ultimate law of the land? That their stupid little city ordinances or whatever cannot restrict these rights? Shouldn't we arrest the people who do restrict these rights and imprison them rather than the other way around?

Chembob,

http://www.pro-fusiononl...ngsten/radioactivity.htm

Thoriated Tungsten Radioactivity
Background

For quite some time, tungsten manufacturers have added an oxide to pure tungsten to improve the arc starting characteristics and the longevity of welding electrodes. While 2% thoriated tungsten has been the most commonly used tungsten material for many years, this electrode type is increasingly being scrutinized because of concerns for the environment and for the safety of users of this material. The concerns arise from the fact that the element thorium is radioactive. On this basis, many organizations have evaluated alternative tungsten types to see what changes in performance they would see by transitioning to non-radioactive tungsten.
The Radioactivity Problem

The Thorium used in 2% thoriated tungsten is a radioactive element and therefore can be dangerous to the health of those exposed to it and to the environment. It is an alpha emitter (like uranium - Nuclearchemist), however when it is inside a tungsten electrode rod, it is enclosed in a tungsten matrix and so there is little radiation emitted externally. The main risk to the welder occurs in the ingestion of the material. This occurs primarily during the inhalation of dust caused during grinding of tips for welding, but also to a lesser extent during breathing of any fumes released during welding.

So Chembob, why isn't this getting more attention? These welders are breathing this dust and fumes constantly on a daily basis. You don't see these welders dropping over dead do you? I think that this is a lot more cause for concern because of their constant daily exposure over their lifetime. Why aren't you yelling and screaming about this?? Oh, that's right, you can't tie it to Bush. Rats huh?

Good point, MMIIXX.

I just re-read nukular-kemmist's comments on this thread. Who knows for sure if he really is a nuclear chemist or not. What does seem to matter is that he is carrying a topic until he can't argue his point any longer and then he switches to another.

IMHO, everybody must research DU at respectable sites and not expect to get good answers from someone who has a definite dislike for those he labels "liberals."

Of course, if the debate is enlightening by encouraging study ... go 4 it!

Nuclear, for a while there I thought you and I were having a civil discussion, as two chemists might, about uranium and it's possible impacts in the various environmental media where it might be dispersed by anthropogenic activity. Then you jump on me about tying it to Bush. OK, well, I don't tie everything to Bush. I don't think the military should be using DU except in the direst of straits (which initially Iraq was obviously not) but Bush certainly wasn't the one who caused it to be used in armor-penetrating projectiles. Hell, he probably wouldn't know what it was if you gave him an 8 hour short course on it. He is the one, however, who started this bullshit war where it is/has been used with impunity.

I didn't know about the thorium in the welding rods. Who thinks up this brilliant shit? I don't know about the effects of this risk on the workers frankly. I've seen no toxicological studies or risk assessments about it, have you? Possibly now some will be done. I'm in favor of correcting things that we as a society and civilization have done poorly, incorrectly, or unknowingly in the past that might be causing harm to us. Aren't you?

Paul asked to put up or shut up, then disappears. Suppose he discovered google?

Chembob,

Like I said before, we live in a radioctive soup. We have Carbon-14 in our cells, we have Pottasium-40 in our bones, we have tritium in our blood, we breath large amounts of radon gas in our lungs. The food we eat contains trace amounts of uranium, thorium, plutonium and radioactive elements not because of bomb testing or nuclear power but because that is what the earth is made up of. We receive radiation from X-rays, from the sun, from cosmic radiation. Hell even the light from the computer screen is a form of radiation... much lower in energy of course.

My point is, yes DU is dangerous. Maybe an extra 3 people out of 10,000 may get cancer and die 5-10 years earlier than they might have. On the other hand, using DU has probably saved hundreds of lives.

DU is one of the best armours available. I forgot, are we for giving the troops the best armour available or not???

O'Reilly just said Cindy threatened Hillary Clinton. Anyone have any links to today's happenings?

Kira,

If you want verification that I'm actually a Nuclear Chemist, leave your e-mail address and I'll send you something from my work.

so 10,000 *3 (*130,000 troops)= 39 extra die and don't count .its a bit like FORD and the pinto gas tank explosions ,pay out claims rather than fix to problem ,cost effective vs. product effective.

correction on #284
Depleted Uranium is U-238. It has a half life of 4.47 billion years. There may also be trace amounts of U-235: 700 million years. U-234: 246,000 years.

4.47 BILLION /25 years(one generation)=17880000000 * 3 =53,640,000,000 deaths before DU is inert.

Still the only country to use nuclear weapons in anger.

178,800,000 that should be

lets try that again 53,640,000 deaths .
i'll go back to digging holes now.

How do you calculate the birth defects?

NANA ,sadly?

(me and calculators don't get on ,as you can see above)

Me either, MMIIXX. I guess they are born and through history and evaluation, do a head count. Could take years. Look at Chernobyl, and the effects on their children.

DU munitions are WMD, no doubt.

nite

We had a Ukrainian girl live with us for a year (left 18 months ago) who was born in the town of Chernobyl. As luck has it her family was relocated to Latvia and on the very day of the meltdown ,they watched the smoke rise out the back window of their car as they drove away.

They call the kids "Chernobyl babies"

http://www.hillsdale.edu...ade/pix/humor/USRSF.html

Kyle what no banjo's?

MMIIXX,

"so 10,000 *3 (*130,000 troops)= 39 extra die and don't count .its a bit like FORD and the pinto gas tank explosions ,pay out claims rather than fix to problem ,cost effective vs. product effective."

So MMIIXX you would rather hundreds die now instead of "39" years later? They use DU because nothing else comes close to the protection it affords.

"4.47 BILLION /25 years(one generation)=17880000000 * 3 = 53,640,000 deaths before DU is inert"

So how many millions of years until Hiroshima and Nagasaki can be inhabited again??? Oh wait, they have been for quite a while. Yes, there have been a few cases of birth defects but by the way you describe it people should be dropping like flies in those cities.

Your calculations are totally flawed. Since when has dust remained on the surface for more than a few years?

Na Nuke I'd rather nobody had to hide behind F$##@@% armor AT ALL.

ON THIS YOU ARE TOTALLY CORRECT
"Your calculations are totally flawed. Since when has dust remained on the surface for more than a few years?"

WHERE THE F%$#^%$#@#@# DOES THE DUST GO ?

and the reason my calculations are flawed is I DON"T HAVE THE RESOURCES OF MOST OF THE FREE WORLD AT MY DISPOSAL TO WORK TO DO THE CALCULATION ,the use of nuclear weapons is never an option ,its not 1945 anymore.You have far greater knowledge than me on Nuke Tech but tell about that little fear you get when your partner tells you she's going to have a baby. I'm pro NUKE TECH and dream of cold fussion but nothing will ever convince me that morally you can spread it (DU) around ANYBODYS country not yours not mine ,simple.

I think we are on the same side but my great great great grand child might live anywhere in the world and I don't want her to get cancer just to balance the DU books.

MMIIXX,

"Where does the dust go?"

If you looked at dust particles and sand particles under a microscope, the sand would look as large as baskatballs and the dust would be the size of marbles (depending on the magnification). Now, say you had a dumpster full of basketballs and you tossed in a bucketful of marbles. How many marbles are going to stay on top? I know that is a simplification but dust gets incorporated into our environment very quickly or we would be wading in the stuff. The only place dust usually accumaulates is in corners, under the couch or on the TV screen Like I said before, each M3 of earth already contains 16 grams of uranium. What we would be adding is another 0.7 grams (if everything was evenly spread out).

That works NUKE ,providing over the last 4 billion years nobody put marbles in your dumpster

wading in the stuff , you looking thru my web cam ? LOL

MMIIXX,

No, just looking around the house

The "marbles" have been here all along. We didn't make them.

If you are in a dust storm, do you really think that there is any difference between the naturally occuring 16 grams of uranium/ per 430KG of dust verses the addition 0.7 grams of DU dust per 430 KG of dust? A gram of uranium is a a gram whether or not it's DU. (Actually, DU is better because it doesn't have the shorter lived isotopes).

I'm tired of nuclear power getting a bumb rap too. Damn coal plants put out more radiation than we do! And as far as Chernobyl goes, I'd rather have been a half mile downwind of there compared to Bopal india!

I'm pro nuke ,my family was a coal mining family three generations ago ,my dad was in the mines at 12 years of age .
Bopal is what scares me about nuke tech the MANAGEMENT of WMD's to the lowest bidder (and lowest safety standards).

MMIIXX - Duhbaya thinks Cold Fusion was a Clint Eastwood movie...

I shocked, outraged and saddened

Are these goddamn fake conservative bastards trying to piss everyone off? Is someone on the right looking for an ass-whooping? Every day they make it worse. I'm ready to punch 'em all in the face.

LOL, no Ed, they are just trying to spread lies and disinformation, as usual.

drink the kool-aid ED and stop reading all those liberal blogs

A grab from footage released on September 20, 2005 shows weapons which Iraqi police said were confiscated from two undercover British soldiers after their arrest in Basra, southern Iraq, September 19, 2005. (Al-Iraqiya via Reuters television/Reuters)

CZARAGORN
Duhbaya co-starred with Clint (Every Which Way But Loose) .

Ed,

Bring yourself up to Michigan and I'll send ya crying back to your momma.

MMIIXX,

Since they were "undercover" do you think that they should be carrying British made equipment or, should they look like real bombmakers so that they can penetrate local cells?

NUKE notice the beards ,what branch of the British Army allows beards on their men? In the Australian Army only sapper (Webster Definition for "sapper"
sap.per \'sap-*r\ n 1: a military engineer who does field fortification
work (as sapping) 2: an engineer who lays, detects, and disarms mines)

They must have been doing "undercover" re-construction.

yea right

MMIIXX,

I've read reports where even US special forces were allowed to grow beards when the were working in Taliban areas. The fanatics typically wear beards. What better way to appear to be zelots?

Once upon a time you could be executed for spying if you were caught out of uniform in a war zone .

such a shame about Tora Bora.

Keep those electrons colliding NUKE ,have a safe day.
And thanks for giving power to the people.

PS what do you guys pay per Kilowatt for domestic power over there?

yes

MMIIXX #309

Good question, your PS. No answer?

I agree Bush knew just like Putin did

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