O.K., I'll "make a comment," although tipping goes in two directions. I predict another "terrorist" attack as soon as *Inc. has settled in for the next four and the peasants have settled back into their work-dazed lives, struggling to survive and forgetting to think.

This time, the "terrorists" will attack with nuclear material that can be traced directly back to Iran and its sinister programs to develop enriched uranium and nuclear weapons capability. This time it will be in Boston (or Philadelphia or L.A. or...just so long as it's nowhere near Florida, Texas,or the WH).

The dirty bomb will be neatly traced back to Iran, which is rendered volatile, of course, by all these "leaks" of U.S. undercover activity there, and a hastily patched-together (not at all) plan of war against the mullahs will be touted from the D.C. rooftops.

Honestly, I don't know in which direction this construction would tip, but I do think this - or something similar - will come to pass. Those criminals don't care about human wastage and despair, just their "mission" to crown the God-anointed "king of the world." It remains to be seen whether the public will wise up and execute them for murder and treason before WWIV and Armageddon.

There will be no tipping point for the Bush administration. The time for that has come and gone. I thought there was going to be one defining moment that hung them. I realize that will not happen now. Enough has been thrust into the publics’ eye to impeach 2 presidential administrations and, to be fair one can be Republican, and the other Democrat. Today we have one party the Republicans fighting tooth and nail to gain power, and you have the Democratic Party who does not even seem to realize they are in a fight. The tipping point in my mind is when the American people talk to each other and realize whether Republican, Democrat Libertarian or Atheist we all share the same dreams and goals for this magnificent country of ours. As long as we are told you are either Blue or Red, Pro Choice or Pro Life, you are either with us or you are against us we will be a kingdom divided. Whenever I sit down with a differing point of view and have a heart felt discussion without anger, frustration and just listen. I find the person I am speaking with is not my enemy, but my friend. Face to face seems to work so much better then posting. When I cannot see a person I demonize them and I can say anything because I am right. However when I look right into someone’s eyes I realize they are not the monsters I thought they were but only a flawed person like myself trying the best they can to understand what the hell is going on. I am so tired of researching facts that disprove someone else’s facts. Then they come back and try and disprove yours. I cannot do this anymore. It worked during the 1st Bush term, but is does not any longer. I am not giving up I am just catching my breath. These are just thoughts of a father of 5, unable to sleep well for the past couple of years, writing at 12 midnight, and to top it off wearing a rubber mouth guard to stop grinding his teeth at night.

The tipping point will be the economy. The Central Bankers are already getting nervous about the tremendous debt of the United States. They must lie awake at night thinking about the dollar falling much more than it already has. Foreign Bankers or Countries finance most of our debt, plus finance the import export imbalance. When the foreign banks or governments get to the point they decide to get out of US bonds or dollars it will be catastrophic to the markets. Unemployment will rise substantially. Factory production will slow to a crawl. To make matters worse we will no longer be able to afford all those electronics and gadgets that we import, thereby making their economies sink. Its still the Economy.

There will be a tipping moment but in my opinion it will not be the war or terrorist attack or economy.
It will be some slip or leak. Something that relates to 'daily life issues'.

When a person gets very arrogant and delusional like God has appointed him to kill the evil, god talks through him he tends to get make some slip. The combination of delusion and over-confidence are receipies for disaster.

What mistake I don't know. But some sensitive issue like Social Security, Medicare, troops rotation or something similar will make the Bush cartel a pariah and career republican politicians will do what ever it takes to 'push' for the tip so they can save thier job.

If this is to happen I would bet that it would be in the 1yr of the Bush 2nd Term.

There have been so many lies. So many reasons to impeach. But I think it's going to take something like a soap opera drama to make an impact on the American people. I am waiting for someone to come out and say that the Saddam Hussein we have in prison is not the real one. And I have an idea who that person might be. I believe that the real Saddam Hussein died of injuries in the first attack on Iraq. The one that was "captured", I believe, is a cousin, one of Hussein's many doubles. I have looked at the pictures of this double, side by side with pictures of Saddam Hussein before the war. There are clear differences in the eyes, eyebrows, nose and hairline. This Saddam double has not been allowed to personally visit with family, friends or lawyers. Why is that? Is it because they don't want them to find out that this is not the real guy?

Several years ago, in late September, I saw a piece on ESPN in which they asked dozens of baseball players the same question: "Who is going to win the World Series?"

All but one of the players answered immediately and all their answers were the same: "We are!"

The only exception was Cal Ripken. He thought about it for a few seconds before he said: "Nobody knows that."

I'm with Cal on this one.

I think the tipping point has already occurred. The insanity of his inaugural address is just settling in and people are realizing how unfit for the office he is. His popularity is sinking fast. People are starting to think about saving themselves.
I think we will see a series of failures. Iraq is going to suck them dry. People aren't buying there lies like they were. The opposition is rearing up. A real battle on the home front is coming.
Well put, Bando, about the cartel becoming a pariah. I agree.

I still think there is a possibility that his return to office was a setup, and some scandal is in the works to bring them down.

I would love to be wrong about the tipping point being the economy that brings Bush down. Hopeully massive election fraud that directly connects Bush, Cheney, and Rove to it. I would love to say I told you so to some..

Teresa -

Dream on, you optimist! Think about the next "disaster," though. Believe the evidence: it's made-to-order. And noone is entitled to pity or the truth. After all, this world belongs to...the "entitled."

Peg C....darn it!

I HAVE been thinking about the next disaster. I figured they would do it to institute the draft.
Just hoping their luck would run out. Or that they would be nailed before they could get to it.

There have been so many parallels to Nixon, though, I thought maybe the fickle finger of fate will intervene in our behalf. We're trying to be good kids.

I'll always have hope, since so far I've been able to deal with disaster anyway.

Hmmm, I reckon the economy is the one thing that they can't control, so that'll have to be the trigger.

Don't count on any form of truth coming out, we've all seen first hand that even if it something did come to light, the majority wouldn't see it and a clear and decisive majority would be what is needed to bring this to a head without a catastrophe.

A lot of the financing for America (and that includes Dubya's little family feud in the middle east) is coming from nations that aren't terribly pro-american, china being one of the biggies. Follow this scenario if you will:

1. Dubya decides to attack someone else - if not Iran then another "enemy of freedom" will be created.

2. Everyone else (Britian included) will politely tell George to go piss up a rope.

3. He's a big big Texan hard man, so he'll go it alone.

4. The rest of the world will eventually say to themselves "This man is a nutter and we could be next." They decide to apply sanctions on the US. When applied properly sanctions do work.

5. The worlds non-US oil companies see the dollar as a liablility and start trading oil in another currency, the Russian's are already said to be considering the Euro as a viable alternative.

6. The US's major creditors see hard times a coming for the US administration and foreclose.

7. US economy free-falls, making the crash of 1929 look like a tea party.

8. George gets either impeached or assasinated (I read somewhere that in the 20th century a presidential assisination attempt was made roughly every twenty years - aren't we overdue?).

I really hope that this doesn't come to pass, but you have to admit that each of these steps isn't beyond the realms of possibility and the sequence seems logical enough to me.

I welcome your suggestions, but please be gentle - I'm a computer nerd and not a political scientist, so I'm willing to believe (and hope that I have) made some fundamental error somewhere.

Vive le revolution de velours, mes amis.

Slightly off thread:

http://www.michaelmoore..../words/index.php?id=1127

Discuss.

I feel sorry for John F. , COMMENT #2.

I disagree that there are not monsters. There are. We even create them when we need to. Not everyone is your friend or shares the same dreams you do. We have it pretty good here, and we own alot and don't want to lose what we have. Perhaps this is what keeps us from doing what must be done. Tipping point? I see an implosion. When, I just can't say. We will just have to wait and see. Russia and China will be holding joint military exercises for the first time in history this year. This may come as a surprise to those who have believed the anti-communist rethoric and propaganda of the last 60 years. Surely they have been plotting against us for the whole time. Never the case. Too busy eyeing each other supiciously. Our biggest worry may be the economic threat from China and India. China just has to call in the loans we've taken out to fund this spending spree for corporate gain. Some predict that the European union will challenge us in more robust ways if we keep on this course much longer. Most of us will be too old or even gone to see it or care, barring the likely probability that some other act of God or man's foolishness doesn't intervene to hasten things along.

>I'm with Cal on this one.

I am with Cal and you on this one Winter Patriot. But to elaborate on an emerging debate between us, some one may know what happened on 9/11 and with the JFK assassination, but we don't, not yet, not for sure. I agree the official inquiries are meaningless. But they may still reflect the truth, even if they set out to promulgate that truth before they actually uncovered it. I am a skeptic and maybe there is more to it than we will ever know. Maybe O.J. was framed. No one saw Scott Peterson kill his wife, and yet he was convicted on mostly circumstantial evidence. The whole world watched 9/11, and many people actually witnessed the shooting in Dallas, we even have it on film, and we still can't get to the bottom of it. That is strange and it's why I am open to all kinds of possibilites, even those that may explain it in a way that is not something nefarious and devious. I am also aware that people have done and will do anything for power and greed. I just don't know, but I keep an open mind. The election is a different matter. I don't need to be convinced that the system needs fixing now. Maybe the outcome would have been the same, but a game this dirty should have been called and replayed right.

I like to think that Bush has already made the key mistake and his name is Kenneth Blackwell. I suspect that the election was on the verge of being lost and, in desperation, the administration played its ace, who happens to also be somewhat of a loose cannon.

I guess we'll see how loose the loose cannon is.

But Peg, you reminded me what I hate to think about - that even if the house of cards should start to fall, the Administration always has another ace in the hole: it would not hesitate (in my opinion) to start another war to consolidate it's position here in the US.

Horrible! Maybe this will be the tipping point:

Wow. Hard to top those. I do have a deep, deep, feeling that G. will never finish his term. So, this is my guess: G. dies--NOT by assassination--and Cheney takes over, and the country dissolves into rapidly-escalating feuds, which are abruptly topped off by the economy collapsing.

Any and all of these things above can do it IF IF IF ...

The MSM is substantially turned.

There is one bit of news in this direction, Ted Turner has called FOX news the propaganda arm of the government and compared this to NAZI Hitler Germany. This is getting some MSM (Drudge) coverage.

In our sedated country something like this is needed to start a revolutionary reaction back to good, critical journalism like what happens here.

Depends on the spin they make of it I guess ...

Something may be happening ... DAMN good focus Fin!

We weren't supposed to change leaders in wartime, as the pundits deem that to be a dangerous step. So in 2008, when the wars are still raging, will they simply suspend the electoral process to protect us from our collecive foolishness?

Barring some mass acts of civil disobedience, like 20 or 30 million Americans refusing to pay their taxes, credit card bills, going on strike, etc. we will have to work steadily and patiently, like the right did over 30 years, developimg a coherent position and message that is beyond reproach and refutation that cannot be readily attacked and attract the numbers of Americans needed to capitalize on the first opportunity to take back control of our lives and our country. Like an earthquake, a slow, steady roll is probably better than a sharp, quick jolt. Being on the left, we are less likely to goose step along in lock step like the right, but some semblance of message discipline can and must be achieved. Eventually the tricks they used will no longer be effective, but we need to do more than just wait for that to happen. They can always come up with new tricks. I found this rather interesting. Obviously not the whole story of the election.

>Bush: The Secret History of a Reelection
By Vincent Jauvert
Le Nouvel Observateur

Week of 20 January 2005

Traps, marketing, and dirty tricks... Today one of his team's strategists confesses: "In July 2004, we thought we were done for." And yet, in spite of the Iraqi disaster, in spite of abysmal deficits and social breakdown, Bush turned the situation around. And beat Kerry by 3.5 million votes. Vincent Jauvert describes the underbelly of a campaign as incredibly sophisticated as it was devoid of any scruples.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_05/012405H.shtml

#22 Exactly! He's the "War President"...remember! A man who kept his job because we're not suppose to change President's in a time of war that he created for himself. All part of the WAR FRAUD, ELECTION FRAUD, ENERGY FRAUD, RELIGIOUS FRAUD, and MEDIA FRAUD! I know...my non-stop subliminal messaging here! LOL

Tipping points? Ha! Take your pick...there are so many possibilities. But I just want to reiterate my position that we're not dealing with a personality problem, but a structural one, and that is corporate control of our country. Bush and any other corporate political royalty are expendable, but as long as we allow corporations and their wealthy benefactors to continue controlling our country we are subject to the unending interconnected FRAUDS I keep harping on above!

We have to concentrate not only on getting rid of Bush & Company war criminals, but creating a government and country free of corporate tyranny that could simply manufacture more Bush's in the future. In other words, we have to finally set things right for not only our future, but future generations to maintain a healthy diverse natural planet that is the home for peace and justice in all our human and natural relationships. Through peace and justice, freedom and liberty flows like a natural spring.

How we achieve that in the face of an unknown future while living under the control of corporate criminals is open to discussion. To be or not to be...that is the question! So what will you be?

I am a revolutionary!

Viva la Revolucion!

Freebird...and this bird you cannot chain...

Regarding LGM’s comment 16#
“I disagree that there are not monsters. There are. We even create them when we need to.”

I do not think you meant to say this, but I think it is very true. There are real monsters in the world, and there is true evil. I am not foolish or lost the will to fight. I am reassessing the battlefield. We are being played against each other by a few. I am not going to create monsters everywhere to explain the craziness in our country. My wife and I enjoy the intelligence, wit, & humor on the Brad Blog , but sometimes I find that hope is not present as much as I would like to see. LGM I would wager is a good person. However I felt in Comment 16# they were way to quick to dismiss hope and name all the reasons we are all going to hell in a hand basket.

Dredd posted the article about Ted Turner. I don't believe a word of the crap posted on Drudge'e site, no offense to Dredd. And even if it is true, Ted Turner is hardly the guy any on the right would listen to. He was married to "Hanoi Jane" Fonda. That's how the corporate media will play that out and it ends up doing more harm than good. That's why Drudge posts it. He is a shill for the right. Always has been. On the other hand, this type of editorial piece goes intentionally unnoticed by the media because it comes from a conservative and is far more dangerous. These are the people who need to speak out, and get coverage. This is where his editorial was picked up:

link

>Dr. Paul Craig Roberts was US Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy during 1981-82. He was also Associate Editor of the Wall Street Journal editorial page and Contributing Editor of National Review. Courtesy, Znet

>VIEW FROM AMERICA
The End of Conservatives
The new conservatives take personally any criticism of their leader and his policies. To be a critic is to be an enemy. I went overnight from being an object of conservative adulation to one of derision...

PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS

I remember when friends would excitedly telephone to report that Rush Limbaugh or G. Gordon Liddy had just read one of my syndicated columns over the air. That was before I became a critic of the US invasion of Iraq, the Bush administration, and the neoconservative ideologues who have seized control of the US government.

America has blundered into a needless and dangerous war, and fully half of the country's population is enthusiastic. Many Christians think that war in the Middle East signals "end times" and that they are about to be wafted up to heaven. Many patriots think that, finally, America is standing up for itself and demonstrating its righteous might. Conservatives are taking out their Vietnam frustrations on Iraqis. Karl Rove is wrapping Bush in the protective cloak of war leader. The military-industrial complex is drooling over the profits of war. And neoconservatives are laying the groundwork for Israeli territorial expansion.

The evening before Thanksgiving Rush Limbaugh was on C-Span TV explaining that these glorious developments would have been impossible if talk radio and the conservative movement had not combined to break the power of the liberal media.

In the Thanksgiving issue of National Review, editor Richard Lowry and former editor John O'Sullivan celebrate Bush's reelection triumph over "a hostile press corps." "Try as they might," crowed O'Sullivan, "they couldn't put Kerry over the top." There was a time when I could rant about the "liberal media" with the best of them. But in recent years I have puzzled over the precise location of the "liberal media."

Not so long ago I would have identified the liberal media as the New York Times and Washington Post, CNN and the three TV networks, and National Public Radio. But both the Times and the Post fell for the Bush administration's lies about WMD and supported the US invasion of Iraq. On balance CNN, the networks, and NPR have not made an issue of the Bush administration's changing explanations for the invasion.

Apparently, Rush Limbaugh and National Review think there is a liberal media because the prison torture scandal could not be suppressed and a cameraman filmed the execution of a wounded Iraqi prisoner by a US Marine. Do the Village Voice and The Nation comprise the "liberal media"? The Village Voice is known for Nat Hentoff and his columns on civil liberties. Every good conservative believes that civil liberties are liberal because they interfere with the police and let criminals go free. The Nation favors spending on the poor and disfavors gun rights, but I don't see the "liberal hate" in The Nation's feeble pages that Rush Limbaugh was denouncing on C-Span.

In the ranks of the new conservatives, however, I see and experience much hate. It comes to me in violently worded, ignorant and irrational emails from self-professed conservatives who literally worship George Bush. Even Christians have fallen into idolatry. There appears to be a large number of Americans who are prepared to kill anyone for George Bush.

The Iraqi War is serving as a great catharsis for multiple conservative frustrations: job loss, drugs, crime, homosexuals, pornography, female promiscuity, abortion, restrictions on prayer in public places, Darwinism and attacks on religion. Liberals are the cause. Liberals are against America. Anyone against the war is against America and is a liberal. "You are with us or against us."

This is the mindset of delusion, and delusion permits no facts or analysis. Blind emotion rules. Americans are right and everyone else is wrong. End of the debate.

That, gentle reader, is the full extent of talk radio, Fox News, the Wall Street Journal Editorial page, National Review, the Weekly Standard, and, indeed, of the entire concentrated corporate media where noncontroversy in the interest of advertising revenue rules.

Once upon a time there was a liberal media. It developed out of the Great Depression and the New Deal. Liberals believed that the private sector is the source of greed that must be restrained by government acting in the public interest. The liberals' mistake was to identify morality with government. Liberals had great suspicion of private power and insufficient suspicion of the power and inclination of government to do good.

Liberals became Benthamites (after Jeremy Bentham). They believed that as the people controlled government through democracy, there was no reason to fear government power, which should be increased in order to accomplish more good.

The conservative movement that I grew up in did not share the liberals' abiding faith in government. "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Today it is liberals, not conservatives, who endeavor to defend civil liberties from the state. Conservatives have been won around to the old liberal view that as long as government power is in their hands, there is no reason to fear it or to limit it. Thus, the Patriot Act, which permits government to suspend a person's civil liberty by calling him a terrorist with or without proof. Thus, preemptive war, which permits the President to invade other countries based on unverified assertions.

There is nothing conservative about these positions. To label them conservative is to make the same error as labeling the 1930s German Brownshirts conservative.

American liberals called the Brownshirts "conservative," because the Brownshirts were obviously not liberal. They were ignorant, violent, delusional, and they worshipped a man of no known distinction. Brownshirts' delusions were protected by an emotional force field. Adulation of power and force prevented Brownshirts from recognizing implications for their country of their reckless doctrines.

Like Brownshirts, the new conservatives take personally any criticism of their leader and his policies. To be a critic is to be an enemy. I went overnight from being an object of conservative adulation to one of derision when I wrote that the US invasion of Iraq was a "strategic blunder."

It is amazing that only a short time ago the Bush administration and its supporters believed that all the US had to do was to appear in Iraq and we would be greeted with flowers. Has there ever been a greater example of delusion? Isn't this on a par with the Children's Crusade against the Saracens in the Middle Ages?

Delusion is still the defining characteristic of the Bush administration. We have smashed Fallujah, a city of 300,000, only to discover that the 10,000 US Marines are bogged down in the ruins of the city. If the Marines leave, the "defeated" insurgents will return. Meanwhile the insurgents have moved on to destabilize Mosul, a city five times as large. Thus, the call for more US troops.

There are no more troops. Our former allies are not going to send troops. The only way the Bush administration can continue with its Iraq policy is to reinstate the draft.

When the draft is reinstated, conservatives will loudly proclaim their pride that their sons, fathers, husbands and brothers are going to die for "our freedom." Not a single one of them will be able to explain why destroying Iraqi cities and occupying the ruins are necessary for "our freedom." But this inability will not lessen the enthusiasm for the project. To protect their delusions from "reality-based" critics, they will demand that the critics be arrested for treason and silenced. Many encouraged by talk radio already speak this way.

Because of the triumph of delusional "new conservatives" and the demise of the liberal media, this war is different from the Vietnam war. As more Americans are killed and maimed in the pointless carnage, more Americans have a powerful emotional stake that the war not be lost and not be in vain. Trapped in violence and unable to admit mistake, a reckless administration will escalate.

The rapidly collapsing US dollar is hard evidence that the world sees the US as bankrupt. Flight from the dollar as the reserve currency will adversely impact American living standards, which are already falling as a result of job outsourcing and offshore production. The US cannot afford a costly and interminable war.

Falling living standards and inability to impose our will on the Middle East will result in great frustrations that will diminish our country.

LGM #26

"Dredd posted the article about Ted Turner. I don't believe a word of the crap posted on Drudge'e site, no offense to Dredd"

No doubt Grudge is MSM as I said.

We must reach the non-fascists in the republican party and elsewhere if the MSM is to turn.

We must not burn books, newspapers, etc. if this is to happen.

To turn inward and reject the baby with the bathwater is a mistake.

So, quoting the compromised MSM when it exposes the fascism a little bit is a useful practice.

Believing them whole hog, as you pointed out, is not a useful practice.

We will not even come close to exposing the fascism without the sane folk in the republican party and the MSM being awakened.

John F. said:

"LGM I would wager is a good person. However I felt in Comment 16# they were way to quick to dismiss hope and name all the reasons we are all going to hell in a hand basket."

That's just me. I am a dark and cynical person most of the time. It's just the way I am. For people like you, this is more difficult perhaps. You will also recover and things will be good again. I'm here and this is where I stay. It's partly the head wound and partly a genetic predisposition. It's probably why I like Ambrose Bierce and H.L. Mencken so much. Bierce took a musketball to the head during the Civil War. Mencken was just a dark and cranky bastard. Knowing which way the basket is headed is essential if you decide it's time to hop out. Or stay in and enjoy the ride. The more miserable, unhappy people in this country, the better. It's the one thing that will save us. You also have to make room for dark and cranky bastards who like to shoot from the hip. You'd be surprised how many of us are liberals through and through. We can't all be happy all the time. That's just life. Utopian societies are a pipe dream, but that's no excuse to refuse to work at it. It has to be better than this. That's the extent of my hopefullness. Since I became a complete recluse my mood has even improved. Seriously.

DA WOOKIE:
Thought that piece you referenced was excellent and timely. Have sent it on to some friends. It sums up the way I have been feeling that the America we grew up with is not what we have today in social attitudes especially. The kindness and helpfulness has been replaced by "dog eat dog" attitudes, each competing for superiority and "might makes right" has replaced thoughtfullness.

There is no need to wager. LGM is a very good person. I am more like you then you might realize. I liked your post. I also like knowing who I am in the basket with.

'Tipping point'? What and when is to be Our, and much of the world's hope and Rove's fear.
And that fear must be hovering over the Rove domain as shown by the wall of protection around bush at all times. They even have tasters to make sure his food is not poisoned.

Will a T.P. come in the form of reaction to political over reach, or popular uprising-like Benito Musollini's end which came at the hands of cheering crowds, or insider dissatisfaction-like the politcally inspired assassination of Huey Long by a trusted insider?

Our job is to nurture their paranoia and help them self-distruct.

And, of course, continue the search for the magic pretzel.

The tipping point will be when they hold national elections on paper because the electrical grid was nuked into vapor by an extremely pissed off rest of the planet. Bush is an utter disaster, and even the dipsticks that did actually vote for him will figure that out after he invades a whole slew of other countries.

Good post LGM #26...always like to hear from fed up conservatives who make valid points in the face of their own support groups. Which is why I also challenge Democrats not to worship any Party or personality. It is the structural failure of our form of government that I find wanting and in need of change. It appears we are locked in a system with few options and it would be unfortunate to simply wait for a tipping point to change course, which could be in the form of economic collapse or even greater violence, both nationally and globally.

We'll just have to give it our best shot!

Freebird

God! How many "tipping points" do we need before we topple into total chaos? What is this - a debate about how much god-awful unacceptableness constitutes unacceptableness? Are we insane?

Our "leadership" most certainly is insane, autistic, sociopathic. When will someone be courageous enough to demand a psychiatric evaluation and a committal to an appropriate institution? For ALL implicated individuals.

Winter Patriot -

No, nobody really knows.

But we can fight - and hope.

A little off topic, but there is an article in the Washington Post about another columnist accepting money from The Bush administration to promote his agenda. Sorry its a little to long go go into here. Maybe someone with better typing skills than I can look it up and post the main points

A lot of conservatives are jumping ship. There've been a rash of them just recently speaking up. I always thought that the end of this psychosis would be a meltdown from within.

I think the tipping point was the Invasion of Iraq. Failure was written all over it from the beginning. Any group that would do that, the way they did, is so misguided and flawed, that they couldn't possibly succeed at their endeavors.

Hope is a totally personal thing. You either have it or you don't, I think. Or it depends on the situation. Other's pessimism or optimism may effect you temporarily, but you probably will revert to your underlying view.
I believe I hang around the lack of hope, sometimes, to balance my tendency to be over-optimistic.
In the long run it doesn't matter regarding circumstances beyond your control. The outcome will be the same. It's just each person's way of coping. The pessimist at least may get pleasantly surprised a little more. That is, if he doesn't immediately start waiting for the ax to fall again.

as per da wookie's astute remarks, it will likely be the economy, but not because they don't have any control over it; the fact is, they do, and they have abused that control to devastating ends, ends that we have yet to see.

but the tipping comes soon.

as per election variables, the economy will be the one that tips the whole kit and kaboodle over the edge. and this is because the demise of the economy will not be just another matter amongst many; it will be utterly and completely devastating.

we are, folks, bankrupt.

kevin phillips pointed this out in the remarkable documentary 'hijacking catastrophe'. he noted that the US has survived a civil war, depressions, two world wars, impeachments, riots, all of this, but it cannot and will not survive bankruptcy. and bankrupt we are.

russia suggested converting oil trade to the euro just days before the 11/2 election. saddam hussein had suggested just that right after bush was installed in office. most of the central banks south of mexico have been quietly converting to the euro over the past few years. there is no confidence in the dollar or the fiat economy, neither having anything to back them up but nixon's hubris in the name of our stable economy, by fiat (and his ire at de gaulle's insistence on cashing in us dollars for the gold reserve, so he convinced congress to take us off gold; very bad move).

stable no more. as well noted in other comments, japan and china will soon stop buttressing our dollar, which will likely be called the tipping point. panic wil ensue the world over, and even most of the wealthy in this country will lose it all. like the guy said, it will make 10/29/29 look like a tea party.

and even now, even if we were not the us and instead some third world country-come-a'beggin', we'd be argentina. our numbers look far worse now than that nation's did right before they collapsed.

but take heart, in the form of naomi klein's 'the take' where she and her husband chronicle how the workers of argentina have occupied the closed factories and put them back in business, not at a profit, but everyone gets paid a living wage, no one gets an exhorbitant ceo salary, and they are producing and selling product, while the owners grouse somewhere in europe that the factories are theirs and the workers are thieves!

an interesting thing happens when a country's economy collapses: they cannot pay their defenders, their soldiers or their police, nor can they pay for the fuel that feeds the machinery for war. this invites all manner of coup d'etats, civil unrest, chaos, and not to mention invasion.

not a pretty picture.

face it, folks, conscience does not lend an ear until the pocket is empty for most people. so much is so easy to justify in order to feed the face, the fetishes, the fascinations. we've all been on the take, so to speak, for way too long. bleed as our hearts do for all the iraqi children and all the wounded soldiers and all those tortured prisoners, we are smug as the shrub in our comfy homes fully equipped with indoor plumbing, piped in heat, and miraculous messaging via these wonderful monsters on our desks.

in just a very few years, we will feel lucky if we can find food, heat, or a pot to piss in, much less a computer! and how would we find any of these, and what good would a computer be, without the grid to supply it all??

so the bad news is, the long powerful american economy will tumble, as will most if not all economies on the planet, there will be all the accompanying horrors of depression writ really large this time, and this mafia will expand its powers in the name of saving the country.

all this will contribute to the good news, which is that the empty-pocketed electorate will then finally vote these scoundrels out of office in '06 (forced as we will be to resort to simple paper ballots all the way), we'll be able to impeach the lot of 'em (far better in many ways than allowing them to slip quietly into that dark night of honorable electoral 'loss' only to re-emerge another day), and install a people-friendly government.

unfortunately, this will likely ignite a civil war with all the die-hards, plunging us further into chaos, exacerbated by the many natural disasters (including plagues and famine) bound to visit us sooner rather than later.

in any case, it's the end of the us as we know it. and the tipping point is best summed up by hemingway in 'the sun also rises', when asked how he went bankrupt: gradually, and then suddenly.

link

it's been building a while, aided and abetted and allowed by all of us, intentionally accelerated by this administration and its cohorts in business and banks, and then pushed over the edge by their specific current policies.

but more good news is this: it had to happen, given how far from truly wholesome living we have all come. not to wax all goofy new age or anything, but when was the last time any of us stored up food for winter or went cold to preserve fuel or dug a new latrine? this was standard only a century ago, and yet we have so quickly and thoroughly lost sight of what it means to live, and live without destruction of others and the planet. how many decisions do we make in any given day that simply disregard the impact on our children, or theirs, seven generations along?

i know all here are as conscientious as they come, and god bless you all for it, but the whole mindless surge has simply come too far, and the system needs resetting. nature's way.

so my suggestion is, beyond all this bleak gloom and doom, set about preparing for a return to the basics, cuz that will likely be all there is, if that. this will require, of course, a huge portion of hope, which is helped by knowing just how important this change will be for all of us. those of us who have watched this happen will be called upon to remember that wholesome conscience is absolutely key to survival of the soul, far more important than the body.

is that not a subtle message embedded in our declaration of independence, and certainly in the struggle to achieve it?

Hear ye, Hear ye fine Bradbloggers. Tipping point?

You are going to LOVE this from former Neocon Michael Lind:

In a second inaugural address tinged with evangelical zeal, George W. Bush declared: "Today, America speaks anew to the peoples of the world." The peoples of the world, however, do not seem to be listening. A new world order is indeed emerging - but its architecture is being drafted in Asia and Europe, at meetings to which Americans have not been invited.
Consider Asean Plus Three (APT), which unites the member countries of the Association of Southeast Asia Nations with China, Japan and South Korea. This group has the potential to be the world's largest trade bloc, dwarfing the European Union and North American Free Trade Association. The deepening ties of the APT member states represent a major diplomatic defeat for the US, which hoped to use the Asia-Pacific Economic Co-operation forum to limit the growth of Asian economic regionalism at American expense. In the same way, recent moves by South American countries to bolster an economic community represent a clear rejection of US aims to dominate a western-hemisphere free trade zone.

Consider, as well, the EU's rapid progress toward military independence. American protests failed to prevent the EU establishing its own military planning agency, independent of the Nato alliance (and thus of Washington). Europe is building up its own rapid reaction force. And despite US resistance, the EU is developing Galileo, its own satellite network, which will break the monopoly of the US global positioning satellite system.

The participation of China in Europe's Galileo project has alarmed the US military. But China shares an interest with other aspiring space powers in preventing American control of space for military and commercial uses. Even while collaborating with Europe on Galileo, China is partnering Brazil to launch satellites. And in an unprecedented move, China recently agreed to host Russian forces for joint Russo-Chinese military exercises.

The US is being sidelined even in the area that Mr Bush identified in last week's address as America's mission: the promotion of democracy and human rights. The EU has devoted far more resources to consolidating democracy in post-communist Europe than has the US. By contrast, under Mr Bush, the US hypocritically uses the promotion of democracy as the rationale for campaigns against states it opposes for strategic reasons. Washington denounces tyranny in Iran but tolerates it in Pakistan. In Iraq, the goal of democratisation was invoked only after the invasion, which was justified earlier by claims that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and was collaborating with al-Qaeda.

Nor is American democracy a shining example to mankind. The present one-party rule in the US has been produced in part by the artificial redrawing of political districts to favour Republicans, reinforcing the domination of money in American politics. America's judges --- many of whom will be appointed by Mr Bush --- increasingly behave as partisan political activists in black robes. America's antiquated winner-take-all electoral system has been abandoned by most other democracies for more inclusive versions of proportional representation.

In other areas of global moral and institutional reform, the US today is a follower rather than a leader. Human rights? Europe has banned the death penalty and torture, while the US is a leading practitioner of execution. Under Mr Bush, the US has constructed an international military gulag in which the torture of suspects has frequently occurred. The international rule of law? For generations, promoting international law in collaboration with other nations was a US goal. But the neoconservatives who dominate Washington today mock the very idea of international law. The next US attorney general will be the White House counsel who scorned the Geneva Conventions as obsolete.

A decade ago, American triumphalists mocked those who argued that the world was becoming multipolar, rather than unipolar. Where was the evidence of balancing against the US, they asked. Today the evidence of foreign co-operation to reduce American primacy is everywhere --- from the increasing importance of regional trade blocs that exclude the US to international space projects and military exercises in which the US is conspicuous by its absence.

It is true that the US remains the only country capable of projecting military power throughout the world. But unipolarity in the military sphere, narrowly defined, is not preventing the rapid development of multipolarity in the geopolitical and economic arenas --- far from it. And the other great powers are content to let the US waste blood and treasure on its doomed attempt to recreate the post-first world war British imperium in the Middle East.

That the rest of the world is building institutions and alliances that shut out the US should come as no surprise. The view that American leaders can be trusted to use a monopoly of military and economic power for the good of humanity has never been widely shared outside of the US. The trend toward multipolarity has probably been accelerated by the truculent unilateralism of the Bush administration, whose motto seems to be that of the Hollywood mogul: "Include me out."

In recent memory, nothing could be done without the US. Today, however, practically all new international institution-building of any long-term importance in global diplomacy and trade occurs without American participation.

In 1998 Madeleine Albright, then US secretary of state, said of the U.S.: "We are the indispensable nation." By backfiring, the unilateralism of Mr Bush has proven her wrong. The US, it turns out, is a dispensable nation.

Europe, China, Russia, Latin America and other regions and nations are quietly taking measures whose effect if not sole purpose will be to cut America down to size.

Ironically, the US, having won the cold war, is adopting the strategy that led the Soviet Union to lose it: hoping that raw military power will be sufficient to intimidate other great powers alienated by its belligerence. To compound the irony, these other great powers are drafting the blueprints for new international institutions and alliances. That is what the US did during and after the second world war.

But that was a different America, led by wise and constructive statesmen like Dean Acheson, the secretary of state who wrote of being "present at the creation." The bullying approach of the Bush administration has ensured that the US will not be invited to take part in designing the international architecture of Europe and Asia in the 21st century. This time, the US is absent at the creation.

I don't know what the tipping point will be, but I feel, too, that it's coming and W will not finish out his second term.

The economy, torture, election fraud, another terrorist attack and the continuing death toll in Iraq are all good possibilities. I also think he may attempt to go after Iran, and the Congress won't be fooled again. Even the Republicans may back off on this one. Here are three more.

It's widely thought that Osama bin Laden is in Pakistan, along with his heavily-armed comrades. There have been several attempts on the life of the Pakistani president, who is our ally in the war on terror. If he gets killed, there could be a coup, with al Qaeda sympathizers in charge. Pakistan has a nuclear weapon.

At least 2 years ago, the Sierra Club filed an information request related to Dick Cheney's secret energy task force. The Administration has fought tooth and nail to withhold this information, going all the way to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court rejected their argument and sent it back to the lower courts. There's a hearing tomorrow, and I hope Cheney will be forced to turn over the documents. It makes me wonder why the administration is fighting so hard against releasing this information. There must be something very damaging. My gut says it will have to do with plans to invade Iraq.

He may have chosen the wrong battle when he decided to go after Social Security. That could be the beginning of the end.

#14 DA WOOKE

Right on target with your assessment of GW Bush's US verses the world.

Might I add this-

Catalyst for economic collapse could be "Dirty Bombs" and /or Nuk in major US city and/or cities. Another major, really major national tragedy on our land. Theory is Saudi Arabia did 9/11 and Bush didn't get the message.

So .... possible offenders may be from Europe???? or yet "China"?????

Some country and/or countries really tired of GW Bush and "family" polices may frame Iraq or Iran.

What do you think????

LLL #35-- Wonderful exposition. I'm with you all the way.

A tipping point is not absolute. It is relative to the environment. You would have thought that Bush had reached the tipping point, but he has not for one reason: his supporters can rig the election for him. The tipping point keeps moving farther and farther away. Therefore the tipping point depends primarily upon the institution of public, trustworthy vote counting after elections without voter suppression.

Our current environment works so that Bush can increasingly do what is opposed by the American people, because increasingly he and the other wicked Bushists do not have to win elections.

As much as I'd be happy to see Bush leave, I don't see it happening.

Despite his (and his staff's), obvious incompetency, he has been able to pull the wool over so many people's eyes for 2 straight elections. Why will any of that change now? By now I've lost hope that it will.

To think that "Bush's good luck is bound to run out" is a Gambler's Fallacy. It is akin to sitting at a table in Vegas and believing you have a better chance of winning the next hand of poker because you just lost the last two. That's not how it works.
.
.
Economically: Japan and (to a lesser extent) China have way too much already invested in the U.S. dollar to back off on it now. Backing off the U.S. dollar, for them, would be akin to slitting their own throats. Instead, they will continue to prop the U.S. dollar, and use their dollar holdings to peddle as much influence on U.S. policy as they can. (As an aside: did you ever notice that most every country that supported the invasion of Iraq also "happened" to have comparatively large U.S. dollar reserves? I read an excellent piece on how the Iraq invasion was more about the "Euro" vs. the "U.S. dollar" as a world currency than it was about WMD's or terrorism...)

And about the Bush family. Is it just me or does anybody else see Jeb Bush already being prepped for his place as next U.S. President in the corrupt Bush Dynasty? Really, I hope I am wrong, but that is the stuff nightmares are made of.

By the time the next election comes around, Diebold and Co. will have had that much more time to iron out any "wrinkles" in their vote-fraud systems.

To be sure, although I've lost hope in seeing G.W. leave office early, I sure as hell will never stop fighting his wrongs. But I guess you can call me a pessimist...

#14 DA WOOKE--

You must be psyche---- FYI-

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Associated Press

Economist: China Loses Faith in Dollar

Wednesday January 26, 4:37 pm ET
By Edith M. Lederer, Associated Press Writer
China Has Lost Faith in Stability of U.S. Dollar, Top Chinese Economist Says at World Forum

DAVOS, Switzerland (AP) --- China has lost faith in the stability of the U.S. dollar and its first priority is to broaden the exchange rate for its currency from the dollar to a more flexible basket of currencies, a top Chinese economist said Wednesday at the World Economic Forum.

ADVERTISEMENT
At a standing-room only session focusing on the world's fastest-growing economy, Fan Gang, director of the National Economic Research Institute at the China Reform Foundation, said the issue for China isn't whether to devalue the yuan but "to limit it from the U.S. dollar."

But he stressed that the Chinese government is under no pressure to revalue its currency.

China's exchange rate policies restrict the value of the yuan to a narrow band around 8.28 yuan, pegged to $1. Critics argue that the yuan is undervalued, making China's exports cheaper overseas and giving its manufacturers an unfair advantage. Beijing has been under pressure from its trading partners, especially the United States, to relax controls on its currency.

"The U.S. dollar is no longer --- in our opinion is no longer --- (seen) as a stable currency, and is devaluating all the time, and that's putting troubles all the time," Fan said, speaking in English.

"So the real issue is how to change the regime from a U.S. dollar pegging ... to a more manageable ... reference ... say Euros, yen, dollars --- those kind of more diversified systems," he said.

"If you do this, in the beginning you have some kind of initial shock," Fan said. "You have to deal with some devaluation pressures."

The dollar hit a new low in December against the euro and has been falling against other major currencies on concerns about the ever-growing U.S. trade and budget deficits.

The U.S. currency came under some pressure Wednesday, drifting lower versus most currencies including the Japanese yen and the euro, as dealers mulled the Chinese official's statements.

Fan said last year China lost a good opportunity to do revalue its currency, in July and October.

"High pressure, we don't do it. When the pressure's gone, we forgot," Fan said, to laughter from the audience. "But this time, I think Chinese authorities will not forget it. Now people understand the U.S. dollar will not stop devaluating."

Asked how speculation about revaluation could be curbed, he noted that China imposed a 3 percent tariff on Chinese exports.

Some Chinese experts say that perhaps inflation can be reduced this year, "but I'm not that optimistic," Fan said, noting that fuel prices keep rising.

"So maybe China (will) have 4-5 percent inflation in 2005," he said.

Fan, whose nonprofit institute specializes in analyzing the Chinese economy, stressed that the country's development is a long-term process that will take decades, maybe a century.

Since China's economic modernization began over a decade ago, 120 million rural laborers have moved into cities, but another 200 million or 300 million people need to move into the cities from the countryside to spur development, he said.

"The income disparity is huge, and income disparity will stay with us for a long time, as long as those 200 to 300 million rural laborers stay in the countryside," Fan said.

Nonetheless, William Parrett, chief executive of Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu, told the panel that Chinese companies are making significant progress in becoming global giants, led by state-owned companies.

"It's probably at least 10 years before the objective of the government of 50 of the largest 500 companies in the world being Chinese" is achieved, he said.

Seymour Hersh spoke informally at the Free Synagogue in NYC, and large portions of his talk were played by Amy Goodman, "Democracy Now," this morning.

Calling the WH crew a "cult" of true believers, he says that indeed *Inc. will invade Iran, probably this summer, by air. He also referred to the military actions in Iraq that we don't see because there are no embedded reporters with these ops. Basically, it is massive strikes from the air over various towns and cities, really just a flattening of Iraqi settlements without regard to casualties. He says to expect the same in Iran.

He spoke about total economic collapse too, and promised that it was on the immediate horizon.

Go to the Democracy Now web site for a fuller report (I'm too lazy to find the link at the moment. Sorry!)

My gentle, cultivated 82-year-old mother listened to Hersh with tears streaming down her cheeks and burst out at one point with, "Ooooh! Why doesn't somebody ASSASSINATE him?!!!" (No, not Hersh, I assure you.)

Hersh was on Jon Stewart last night, too. Too short. When is Jon going to go a full hour?

Here's the link:
http://www.democracynow.....pl?sid=05/01/26/1450204

And here are Hersh's final words:

"We could see something there, collective action against us. Certainly, nobody --- it's going to be an awful lot of dancing on our graves as the dollar goes bad and everybody stops buying our bonds, our credit --- our --- we're spending $2 billion a day to float the debt, and one of these days, the Japanese and the Russians, everybody is going to start buying oil in Euros instead of dollars. We're going to see enormous panic here. But he could get through that. That will be another year, and the damage he’s going to do between then and now is enormous. We’re going to have some very bad months ahead."

Great blog, everyone. Do you think that American elected officials are vaguely aware of any of this info? Because they don't act like it. Is everything just a silly soap opera to them? Monica??? GWB??? Is each one so intent on his/her own personal power, and so myopic, they don't know what is happening "out there" in the world?

If people are complaining to their Representatives, then maybe the Repubs. may get concerned enough about their own seats, that they go en masse to the DUMYA administration and sharply pull in the reins. DUMYA won't like it and may have a stroke/heart attack or fall(?) off his bike. An unpopular Cheney administration will muddle through with his hands tied by the Repubs. The Repubs. want to get in again in 06 and 08.

Economically, things will slowly go downhill. That will provide an opportunity for change in government for 06. But the election rigging and disenfranchisement must be remedied. Keep on shouting about this. We know what they are doing and how they are doing it. And it WILL NOT BE TOLERATED in 06. That's the message the Repubs. need to get from AMERICA NOW.

It may not be a matter of gWb's luck that runs out, it may be that the presumably bottomless US money pit starts to run out. This idiotic war with its long supply lines now requires another 80 billion!

That's comparable to the Hunt brothers in their idiotic drive to croner the silver market a while back--when the money guys got wind of that they started the 'short squeeze', selling silver limit down days on end and the Hunts got clobbered with margin calls. The Hunts could not sell their silver position because the repeated limit down closed the market. They had to dump stocks and that caused a bear crash.

What may be implied by (Teresa's #36 post) world events described is that the money powers of the world can taste the weakness. The US can be excluded, isolated and friendless. Massive deficits everywhere and growing. They will let us play with our war toys a bit longer than comes the pull out of funds and Humpty Dumpty george will fall off his wall.

Unfortunately we all get hurt---thank you W04.

sorry--corner the silver market

yeah, great discussion here.

anyone notice? the trend appears to be weighing heavily toward the economy as the 'winner' in the tipper contest.

my gratitude to all for these terrific contributions!

folks like you do give one hope, no?

OT: Brad, you deserve the respite. Enjoy.

Good job to guest bloggers.

Tip Bush II regime?

In a dreamy, utopian state I'd like to believe it's already started.

Y'know ... with venerable Conyers and the Black Caucus.

and Barbara Boxer, who, after a resounding score by being the solitary senator in favor of not certifying Ohio,

now lands her second really solid punch questioning the myths about Iraq the Bush admin fed Condee Rice who promptly, knowingly and willingly fed them to us,

and Byrd who was a man out of this time warp and truly seemed possessed of the spirit of the founding fathers during yesterday's SOS debate.

And now we are from one to two to thirteen senators brave enough to fight.

Small as it is, it cheers my heart.

Peace all ... and keep hope alive.

R

If the economic destruction tips Bush, we'll be lucky. Bush himself is a case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and forcing economic ruin onto people he deems "unworthy" brings him pleasure. I'm serious about that.

If we are unlucky, the Christian Dominionists use the collapse to take power.

Put me in the optimist column. I don't know what will happen, but I'm such an optimist that I think if the earth bug-sprays all the human vermin to oblivion, it wouldn't be the worst thing that has happened in our neck of the galaxy. (Figure that out philosophically.)

I'm hedging my bets as to the tipping point and think it will be a combination of some of the things that have been mentioned in the thread. The economy, Social Security. (I think I heard Gore Vidal say last night he thought the tipping point would Social Security.) I agree with Teresa that they are on the downward slide because (1) the word "liar" is now out of our crowd and into polite society and I believe it will resonate and grow (2) Many conservatives are feeling sick and are starting to talk about it. (3) All those purged CIA agents and others may not simply be enjoying the sunsets (4) the Republican legislative program is far into the realm of fantasy and will only bring distress to America very soon. (5) The fantasy world of the Bushites is getting to the point of senility and, combined with hitting the wall of reality, will create an unresolvable confusion in the minds and working of the "rulers of the universe". (They shouldn't have knocked reality - It will be getting back to them.) (6) The people who voted for dubya who are not wacked-out religious fanatics were not paying attention (stupidly, of course) and they will be forced to pay attention by developing circumstances and by us.

There is certainly the possibility that they will stage some kind of terrorist act, but the weaker they are, the more confused and falling apart, the less likely anything of this sort would successfully advance their objectives. It would be more likely that there would be a coup (whether designated by the term of not) by another element of the government. Personally, I think dumbya has used up his "great leader" chips and is supported by rote and habit by many of his supporters who can't figure out anything else to do as their overriding need is to have a daddy figure. The depth of it as a political force is problematic.

I don't have the respect for the "genius" of the Bushites that many on our side do. In many ways, they seem like second-tier gangsters who took advantage of the "dumbing of America" - They are corporate criminal cronies (in alliance with the more sinister neocon ideologues). Their lies are blatant and crass. Their appeal to patriotism is childish and obvious. Even election fraud is just old-time crime machine kind of stuff. Disenfranchisement is old-time stuff. Controlling the voting machines is a modern version of Tammany Hall, the Pendergast machine and so on --- of course, on a national level. The earlier criminals were more adept at hiding their crimes. The Bush crowd relies almost exclusively on the stupidity of the public. (I mean big Bush contributors owning the voting machine companies? Top election officials running state campaigns?) Their domestic and foreign adventures consist largely of shakedowns and extortion. They want the goods on everybody - just like Al Capone. (Total information awareness) To keep it going, they have to put on a juggling show that is only working because so many people are so dumb, but it is very difficult to keep all those balls in the air, and they will come crashing down sometime, with our help. Events themselves - many of which I hope we will initiate, nourish, and advance and others that will arrive via the Bushite fantasy machine - may knock a modicum of intelligence into the "boobboisie".

I don't say this to diminish the perception of the danger we are in. An obscenely gargantuan military machine is in the hands of gangsters. The rise of the Bushites to national status ties in nicely with the corporatization of culture which is gangsterism itself and is essentially the intentional dumbing down of society for profit and concentrated power. Corporatization and liberty; corporatization and dignity, corporatization and community, corporatization and popular government --- they are opposites. They cannot co-exist. Popular control is essential, and it should be at the core of our revolution. (It is also the foundation of sustainability and the health of the earth.) The Bushites do pose an imminent, dire, and lethal threat to our sovereignty as it exists. Any revolution worth its name revolves around the essential matters of society and politics - and the essential matter of our time is that corporate culture, in all its manifestations, has usurped popular culture, institutions, and government. It has sold itself using deep cultural symbols and psychological manipulation, and offering toys and diversions to an increasingly infantized population. I think this revolution may be about growing up.

in comment #49, Rusty wrote:

"And now we are from one to two to thirteen senators brave enough to fight."

I can't remember where, but earlier today I read that the 13 "no" votes were the most against any Secretary of State since the early 1800's. I will post that link if I can find it ... meanwhile I join you in saluting our brave Senators. All 13 of them. Now if they could figure out a way to make their courage contagious...

Arry #51,

I do so agree. They are old school and I feel that the paradigm has shifted. They're really corney, and soon will be left behind. It seems like a grand death of a once proud but now old and useless beast.

>>It has sold itself using deep cultural symbols and psychological manipulation, and offering toys and diversions to an increasingly infantized population. I think this revolution may be about growing up.

Well put.

I think the best sign of all is that we seem to be losing our fear of them. They really are ludicrous, and seem to me like drunken Romans enjoying their games of torture and violence. It's been done ad nauseum.

In a moment of rare pessimism, though, I was wondering if an economic collapse might not be part of their plan. To create chaos and institute martial law.
If so, I still think they are wandering around in a prehistoric desert, while the rest of us are moving on.
Maybe their fossils will fuel some future generation!

Hi Winter Patriot,

I read it too today. Here's one source for the historic factoid:

http://seattlepi.nwsourc...61_rice27.html?dpfrom=th

" ... Twelve of the Senate's 44 Democrats and its one Independent voted not to confirm Rice, the highest number of votes against a secretary of state nominee since Henry Clay took the office in 1825, under President John Quincy Adams ... "

As far as making this spirit contagious to the other senators and policymakers, methinks we gear up to keep phoning, faxing and emailing.

Have good one,
R

Teresa (#53) and Arry (#51) -

Yes, the crooks and gangsters are old-timey hackneyed stereotypes and in 2005, for God's sake, we're saavy enough and connected enough to be wise to THOSE tricks. But the corporate monster in the background, largely invisible to the naked eye but THERE just the same, looms like a robotic control machine without a heart or soul but with an enormous maw and stiletto claws. This is the beast Yeats saw coming. This is the beast reicarnated, and, if possible, beastlier. We must grab the remote control out of the *Inc.s hands.

Yes, Arry, this is about growing up - and it's about time.

Oh, and Arry... we seem to be stuck.

I think something's watching the human vermin squirm.

Perhaps we could hasten the tipping point if each of us sent a bag of pretzels to Gee Duhbaya Bullsh. I mean, imagine sixty million bags of chips showing up at the White Sheeple's House!

Teresa in #53 said: "I think the best sign of all is that we seem to be losing our fear of them. They really are ludicrous, and seem to me like drunken Romans enjoying their games of torture and violence. It's been done ad nauseum."
Teresa in #57 said: "Then we'll grab them and thrust them into that enormous maw. Please don't weaken when they cry for mercy. That's not part of our job description."

This is so important, I think. We need to rip to shreds their covering of invincibility and political intelligence and legitimacy and show them for the ugly little crooks they are. Once they are generally exposed, there will be no recovery for them, in my opinion. They will be ludicrous. There will indeed be a tipping point. I think VR is on target with the election and the media issues for this and a number of other reasons.

Peg C in #55 said: "But the corporate monster in the background, largely invisible to the naked eye but THERE just the same, looms like a robotic control machine without a heart or soul but with an enormous maw and stiletto claws. This is the beast Yeats saw coming. This is the beast reicarnated, and, if possible, beastlier. We must grab the remote control out of the *Inc.s hands"

When I get on the subject of corporatization and it's smothering of everything that is good, great, and life-sustaining, I could go on forever. The heart of our revolution will necessarily be de-corporatization and popular sovereignty. No choice. That's what it has to be about. From a practical political standpoint, we have to tackle issues as they arise but always be driven by the force of our central objectives and convictions and realize that we are in it for the long haul or as long as it takes.

Tersa in # 58 said: "Oh, and Arry... we seem to be stuck.
I think something's watching the human vermin squirm."

Could be! An image that often comes to my mind is people who thought they were going somewhere have come up against a wall, a barrier. So, they are just milling around getting more irritable and angry with each other, bunching up against the wall as the crowd gets larger and pushier. There are ways over, but everybody is so self-involved and pushed around they don't even notice them.

Aagh.

"Tersa in # 58 said..."

Of course, that's Teresa!

Last one from me tonite,

But just in case anyone interested missed the list of the thirteen senators who did vote against Rice's nomination today, list follows.

And, ps, as a California resident, I'll be letting Senator Feinstein know that should she seek office again she probably won't be getting my vote. I'll vote green or independent in her place.

Boxer ... well ... whole 'nother story.

__________________________

Voting against were 12 Democrats and one independent, James Jeffords of Vermont:

Barbara Boxer, California

Daniel Akaka, Hawaii

Dick Durbin, Illinois

Evan Bayh, Indiana

Tom Harkin, Iowa

Ted Kennedy, Massachusetts

John Kerry, Massachusetts

Carl Levin, Michigan

Mark Dayton, Minnesota

Frank Lautenberg, New Jersey

Jack Reed, Rhode Island

James Jeffords, Vermont

Robert Byrd, West Virginia

Source: Associated Press
http://www.sfgate.com/cg...hive/2005/01/27/RICE.TMP

Peg C,

It is a tough task, but I was hoping that their hands were so overstuffed with all the things they've been grabbing that they would lose their grip on all of it.

I love Yeats.

That beast is always around. It's been there all throughout history and in all our fairy tales and stories. It's the force we muscle against. But I really believe we are equal to it.
I'll get them from behind, if you get in front and snatch that remote. Then we'll grab them and thrust them into that enormous maw. Please don't weaken when they cry for mercy. That's not part of our job description.
I think I've been in basic training for this moment for about half a century.

Maybe it's a portent... the fact that we haven't had a nay vote like this since WWII. I think the Gonzales vote will be even better. And maybe it means that they will be unable to destroy all the WWII social programs.

Gee, you people are terrific! And what a great thread... I think it should be permanent; it covers all the angles.

P.S. Thank you, Fin.

I second that, Fin.

The media celebration over the Iraqi election suggests that Iraq itself cannot be the tipping point. It's remarkable...a dog and pony show with anonymous candidates and no issues is celebrated as a triumph for democracy by every major newspaper and TV network.

So those of us in the distant blogosphere have to produce the tipping point. We must not neglect two stolen elections, destruction of civil liberties, torture at Guantanamo, $9 billion they just discovered missing in Iraq, payola of taxpayer funds to shills for the Bush administration, the Halliburton follies, the true link between Bush and his friend "Kenny boy" Lay at Enron, etc. etc. etc.

A stock market collapse could turn the public off and give Democrats control of Congress in 2006. But that's iffy. There's already plenty to go on.