READER COMMENTS ON
"Nevada is No Iowa: Silver State's GOP Caucuses Fail"
(33 Responses so far...)
COMMENT #1 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 2/6/2012 @ 5:23 pm PT...
The only problem with that Iowa heavenly caucus thingy is that they did not announce the correct results (until after Americans were sick of hearing about the Iowa caucus already).
After generation upon generation of propaganda pounding, Americans would always like to have it right the first time so as to limit the cringing to a reasonable spasm episode.
That seems fair, seeing as how they can only stay sane any more by hearing the names of idiots less than a thousand times daily.
After that, stutter shock shuts out the 1,001th and thereafter time the same dumb shit's name is repeated.
If Iowa is the model of heavenly caucuses, then getting it wrong the first time is doctrine.
But that's ok ... who won that Bush election anyway ... have they got that straight yet?
It would be so Iowa to learn he really didn't win, but he did accomplish that mission thingy in the U.S.eh?
COMMENT #2 [Permalink]
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Ancient
said on 2/6/2012 @ 6:32 pm PT...
Hey mikey hayden how you like me now??????????????? I know you tested these fucked up totally secret and totally corruptable voting machines out there in the hills of Seattle you asshole! Actually its on film.
COMMENT #3 [Permalink]
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Ancient
said on 2/6/2012 @ 6:37 pm PT...
Shit in your own bowl often?
COMMENT #4 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 2/6/2012 @ 7:15 pm PT...
Dredd sedd @ 1:
The only problem with that Iowa heavenly caucus thingy is that they did not announce the correct results (until after Americans were sick of hearing about the Iowa caucus already).
The results they announced that night would have been "accurate" for 9999 out of 10,000 elections, but for how close the final margin was. Had they made that clear when announcing their preliminary totals that night (their dumb mistake), the prob wouldn't have happened and nobody would have been declared the "winner" until everything was double and triple checked. When the preliminary results of an election with 122,000 votes ends with 8 votes separating 1st and 2nd place, that's just common sense. The Iowa GOP displayed none in that instance.
But that's hardly the fault of the vote casting and counting system they used. Mistakes happen in every election, as they did there. Normally such small mistakes don't matter. In this rare case they did. But the test is not whether or not small mistakes occur, it's whether or not the people can spot them and then fix them without controversy or doubt.
That's what happened in Iowa and it's exactly what you want from an election process. But when you conceal vote counting, as appears to have happened in Nevada, there is no way out to an election that the citizenry can have confidence in because there is no way for them to ultimately know whether the final results are accurate or not.
That you still don't seem to understand all that, Dredd, given how long you've been hanging out here, remains what we shall charitably call "a mystery".
COMMENT #5 [Permalink]
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Ancient
said on 2/6/2012 @ 9:12 pm PT...
COMMENT #6 [Permalink]
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Ancient
said on 2/6/2012 @ 9:23 pm PT...
I am forever vigilant, against assholes that profit off a good people. Your one of the biggest, and oh my nobody knows!
COMMENT #7 [Permalink]
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Ancient
said on 2/6/2012 @ 9:46 pm PT...
Hey there mikey, you and chertoff got your own special place...huh? Grow up and understand this is the 21 century.
COMMENT #8 [Permalink]
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Ancient
said on 2/6/2012 @ 10:03 pm PT...
Just so you don't get confused and speculate...that special place would be hell...if I believed in good and evil instead of imbalanced people.
COMMENT #9 [Permalink]
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Jeannie Dean
said on 2/6/2012 @ 11:54 pm PT...
Woah! Another citizen steps up! Video (from CNN, no less) of Nevada Caucus - Feisty Ron Paul delegate refused entry into the "secret" counting back room and refuses to leave / manhandled by State GOP buggers:
http://youtu.be/1JqFw-mepT0
...anyone happen to know how this played out after the cameras were off?
COMMENT #10 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 2/7/2012 @ 7:41 am PT...
Bard @4,
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I say the Iowa Republican caucus was ugly as an example of an election, you say beautiful.
Fair enough.
You sprinkle holy water on it by saying paper ballots made it good, I say paper ballots don't guarantee a fair election.
I will acknowledge that since the coup the standards for elections have gone down hill.
Down hill to the point that the machine election count movies are evil, and even the paper ballot movies are grade B.
Grade B is the golden standard now I suppose.
COMMENT #11 [Permalink]
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Miles
said on 2/7/2012 @ 8:41 am PT...
I find it unfortunate that you failed to notice that the recounted numbers only changed the Romney/Santorem totals. Don't you think Ron Paul's numbers might have been in error...just a little bit?
COMMENT #12 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 2/7/2012 @ 9:46 am PT...
Dredd sedd @ 10:
I say the Iowa Republican caucus was ugly as an example of an election, you say beautiful.
What was "ugly" about it (above and beyond the ugliness I already pointed out)? What processes if procedures could/should have been implemented to help make it less ugly?
You sprinkle holy water on it by saying paper ballots made it good, I say paper ballots don't guarantee a fair election.
Of course, had you read the article above --- or any number of thousands of others here --- you'd know I don't, and have never argued, that paper ballots, in and of themselves, make any election "good".
Do you bother to actually read our articles here? Or just check the headline before leaving a link to one of your blog articles in comments?
COMMENT #13 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 2/7/2012 @ 9:56 am PT...
Miles @ 11 asked:
I find it unfortunate that you failed to notice that the recounted numbers only changed the Romney/Santorem totals. Don't you think Ron Paul's numbers might have been in error...just a little bit?
If they were, we have no evidence of it. At least no evidence of change enough to affect his position in the final results. Yes, Santorum & Romney swapped spots, but that was a net change of all of 42 votes total.
Paul, on the other hand, was thousands of votes behind them. I noted it was a Ron Paul supporter who stepped up an pointed to the original reporting error. If other Paul supporters, or observers of any stripe, have evidence that the results, as now reported by the GOP, is wrong, where is that evidence? I'm happy to look at it, of course. I'm just aware of NONE at this time.
COMMENT #14 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 2/7/2012 @ 10:32 am PT...
My inaccurate election is better than your inaccurate election.
Better is the golden standard.
Nuf said.
COMMENT #15 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 2/7/2012 @ 11:41 am PT...
Dredd sedd @ 14:
Nuf said.
Hardly. You took some serious ad hominem shots at my critique/commentary, which you are more than welcome to do, but failed to back them up with a single substantive point in support. When I asked you specific questions, you chose not to answer them.
Sounds like you don't actually have any substance at all to support your critiques. So I guess you've proved we should all ignore them. If I'm wrong, I'm sure you'll be able to demonstrate otherwise by actually responding to the questions I've asked in response to your (apparently substanceless) snark.
COMMENT #16 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 2/7/2012 @ 1:11 pm PT...
Bard @15,
Since you are spoiling for an argument, I will grant your wish.
Your position is unprincipled, because it is degree based.
In principle a machine election can be more accurate than a paper ballot election, and vice versa. Or less accurate and vice versa.
The degree either one is wrong or right can not change the degree-base into a principle-base.
You proclaimed Iowa's defective election to be the example for the nation because it used paper ballots and counting ballots out in the open protocol.
But it selected the wrong person, and did not count every vote.
But it is the example?
The holy grail you are advocating is that the way it is done is more important than whether or not the right person is proclaimed the victor.
That does not make sense, Santorum was not declared the victor even though he was the victor.
The disadvantaged him in the subsequent primary events and in the eyes of the public, and it gave imaginary advantage to Romney as well.
It is just a fact that our election systems are flawed because those doing it are incompetent or the system they labor under is flawed.
For a century we have known that Stalin used paper ballots, and like in Iowa, those who count the votes decide. They decided Santorum lost, WRONG, then they decided he won. With the same paper ballots. Hell, machines can do that.
If Minnesota and Iowa are exemplary in our election system I am embarrassed.
Not only that, I do not accept your ideology on it, because I am confident that we can do better and in fact I demand it.
I understand your position well, and for years have agreed with the position that paper ballots counted in public is better than the use of machines.
But that is because of dishonesty and incompetence in our system, and in machine and software engineering.
I have disagreed with the aspect you preach on this blog that does not see the larger problem.
My position has always been that the cure is honesty and competence, not technique, and not equipment.
You can go down the slippery slope of declaring a defective Iowa caucus to be the example to follow, and I can choose to demand something I think is better.
As it should be.
The prosecution of a Secretary of State for election related felonies speaks volumes about the need for honesty and competence.
Under that Sec. of State no election would be safe, whether conducted by machine or by paper ballots counted in the open.
Iowa shows that even though there were no know felonies committed in that caucus election.
So, again, nuf said for now.
COMMENT #17 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 2/7/2012 @ 6:27 pm PT...
Dredd sedd (or, blustered, perhaps, as a better way to describe it) @ 16:
But it selected the wrong person, and did not count every vote.
"It" didn't "select the wrong person". It selected the person who had the most votes, and if it didn't, I'd be delighted for you to prove otherwise. The guy who ran the Iowa Caucuses --- Matthew Strawn --- did, however, incorrectly declare the wrong person won --- by 8 votes. But he couldn't get away with it, thanks to the system used. So why is that the fault of publicly hand-counted paper ballots again?
Now, beyond that, which votes did it "not count"? (And, by the way, if it did not count every vote, how would you know that? Careful, that's a trick question for ya.)
The holy grail you are advocating is that the way it is done is more important than whether or not the right person is proclaimed the victor.
See above. But to recap, the process didn't "declare" the wrong victor. The guy running the process did. And the point is that, thanks to the excellent process, we were able to PROVE that the guy running the process declared the wrong victor! Again, that's the whole point!
Now, contrast that with, say, Ohio 2004, or any number of other elections since, where the guy declared the winner may or may not have won, but YOU will never be able to prove it either way thanks to the secret processes used in those elections.
It is just a fact that our election systems are flawed because those doing it are incompetent or the system they labor under is flawed.
Right. That's why you want a system in which the maximum number of citizens can oversee the process to assure that any flaws or incompetency is exposed. That's exactly what happened in Iowa.
For a century we have known that Stalin used paper ballots, and like in Iowa, those who count the votes decide.
Wrong. Those who counted the votes --- the public, in this case --- decided, correctly, that Santorum won, not Romney. That, even after the GOP had tried to declare otherwise. So I still seem to be missing your point. Or you're having a helluva time trying to make it.
If it was up to those in charge, like Strawn, Romney might have been declared the victor and nobody could have done a damn thing about it. Since they used an open, fully public counting process, however, we were all able to learn better and prove as much.
Not only that, I do not accept your ideology on it, because I am confident that we can do better and in fact I demand it.
Cool! What do you have in mind, boss? I'm always looking for ways to improve the system. Haven't noticed you offering such an idea up until now, but looking forward to it!
I understand your position well, and for years have agreed with the position that paper ballots counted in public is better than the use of machines.
But that is because of dishonesty and incompetence in our system, and in machine and software engineering.
I have disagreed with the aspect you preach on this blog that does not see the larger problem.
What "larger problem"? Ah...now we see it below...
My position has always been that the cure is honesty and competence, not technique, and not equipment.
Aha! Got it! Your way to improve elections is by demanding "honesty and competence"? Whereas now we demand "dishonesty and incompetence", I guess?
But let's play along and presume that all we need to do is demand honesty and competence (which I'm pretty sure folks already demand). How would you know if anybody was either honest or competent, without the transparency that I've long been calling for?
Or, are you presuming that after hundreds of years of folks attempting to game elections, they'd suddenly just decide to stop trying to game elections now that thousands of "honest and competent" people (as Judge Dredd determines them to be, I guess?) were magically installed to run our elections?
You can go down the slippery slope of declaring a defective Iowa caucus to be the example to follow, and I can choose to demand something I think is better.
You can do anything you want, of course. But if your "demand" is for "honest and competent" people to run elections, with no plan for either how to find them, install them, or --- most important of all --- for the citizenry to know they are "honest and competent", it sounds like you've got no plan whatsoever to improve American elections. It sounds, in fact, like your are pulling contrarianism out of your ass, for some reason that I couldn't begin to understand.
No election is perfect. No election can ever be perfect. That's why you want as many people as possible to oversee the entire process, so any mistakes or nefariousness can be immediately and decisively found out and corrected.
The prosecution of a Secretary of State for election related felonies speaks volumes about the need for honesty and competence.
Under that Sec. of State no election would be safe, whether conducted by machine or by paper ballots counted in the open.
And that's where you're wrong. Again. The best election system --- the one I've been advocating --- works even under dishonest and incompetent individuals. Even the criminal Charlie White wouldn't have been able to game an election like the one held in Iowa, even if he wanted to, at least not without being caught by the citizenry. And that, again, is the whole point.
Or, we could just pray to the Magic Election Fairy and ask her to deliver thousands of "honest and competent" election officials and then simply trust that they actually are. We'll call that "Democracy's Dredd Standard".
Good luck with that, chief!
COMMENT #18 [Permalink]
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Ancient
said on 2/9/2012 @ 10:38 am PT...
COMMENT #19 [Permalink]
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LoveOfTruthGuy
said on 2/10/2012 @ 8:52 am PT...
Hi Brad, Hi all,
A friend of mine on Facebook posted the link below to a blog where the author argues that there must be something wrong with the Nevada primary based on the fact that Ron Paul's numbers stayed almost exactly the same as in 2008, despite numerous indicators that many more people are in support of him now than there were in 2008.
I found it fairly persuasive.
Nevada Election Result Likely Fraudulent, Ron Paul Votes Seemingly Discarded
Thanks for all you do, to the sane adults here, especially you Brad.
Writing for the love of truth,
jd
COMMENT #20 [Permalink]
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Ancient
said on 2/16/2012 @ 7:21 am PT...
Hey Loveoftruthguy, have you seen any coverage on msm about this or Brad's new piece on Maine? It is disgusting how they have used our public airwaves to promote the usa circus of sour instead of informing people about important news like this:
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/02/15-8
COMMENT #21 [Permalink]
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Ancient
said on 2/16/2012 @ 7:35 am PT...
COMMENT #22 [Permalink]
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Ancient
said on 2/16/2012 @ 7:49 am PT...
COMMENT #23 [Permalink]
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Ancient
said on 2/16/2012 @ 8:00 am PT...
COMMENT #24 [Permalink]
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Ancient
said on 2/16/2012 @ 8:45 am PT...
COMMENT #25 [Permalink]
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Ancient
said on 2/16/2012 @ 9:02 am PT...
Ooops, after reviewing my posts, I should have said in #23 that the piece is a "fiction" by a great writer. Also, check out the following piece on Honduras in the Democracy Now link.
COMMENT #26 [Permalink]
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Ancient
said on 2/16/2012 @ 5:38 pm PT...
COMMENT #27 [Permalink]
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Ancient
said on 2/16/2012 @ 5:48 pm PT...
COMMENT #28 [Permalink]
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Ancient
said on 2/16/2012 @ 6:01 pm PT...
And hey Dredd, did you notice my untitled reference to Donovan's Circus of Sour?
COMMENT #29 [Permalink]
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Ancient
said on 2/16/2012 @ 6:18 pm PT...
Dredd, I couldn't find a clip of Circus of Sour, but I found this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc6HcA6kEJc
Ya know I tried to post on your blog a few years back and couldn't get through.
Regardless, I love both you and Brad.
COMMENT #30 [Permalink]
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Ancient
said on 2/16/2012 @ 6:27 pm PT...
An ya know I haven't read your argument above...just noted that it happened.
COMMENT #31 [Permalink]
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Ancient
said on 2/16/2012 @ 8:56 pm PT...
COMMENT #32 [Permalink]
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Ancient
said on 2/16/2012 @ 9:11 pm PT...
COMMENT #33 [Permalink]
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David Lasagna
said on 2/18/2012 @ 4:35 pm PT...
re: Brad and Dredd jousting---
For my money--
Brad, him a make a whole lotto sense.
Dredd, him a make a gigundo word salad.