I used to tend bar at a AmLeg hall and most of the guys there were old WW2 guys, most of whom have passed on. The VFW, on the other hand, has more VN, Korean and Gulf vets , the kind more likely to join Vets for Peace groups or wear Bushit detector earmuffs to a Boosh speech.

It is dangerous for a person who is active military to speak out against the war or the pResident. As a friend of mine said "One day you're safe in the Green Zone and the next you're on your way to Falujah".

One of my greatest fears is that the Iraq vets will be treated as badly as the VN vets were. It won't be liberals who do that, it will be the neo-cons trying to further devide us. All they have to do is get a few National Guard to point their guns at a peace rally. Kent State, re-dux.

We have to keep protesting the war, speaking out and bringing them home. We HAVE to do it, because they can't.

I promise you, the members of the AmLeg probably have very little to do with their leader declaring war on protesters. That's like saying that all Christians called for the assasination of the Venuzulan president.

Hi Terri: If you read me carefully you will see that I have been very careful to attribute this "war on protesters" to the American Legion leadership ... but if you read the E&P piece you will find that the motion passed unanimously, which certainly says something ... but who knows what?

So let me understand this ; the American Legion, meeting (vacationing) in Honolulu, decided that they will support American men and women sent to fight and die in 120 degree in a country that DID NOT ATTACK AMERICA.

Lessons learned in Vietnam ? The lesson are : IF AMERICANS DON'T PROTEST, WE WILL LOSE ANOTHER 58,000 men and women.
Sorry to be so impassioned but having lost a brother, and friends in ANOTHER illegal war for oil and greed I am incensed at this STUPIDITY.!

Excuse me, I mean the American Legion is supporting the ADMINISTRATION THAT IS SENDING TROOPS TO DIE !

Quoting The powerful Tom Delay from the days of Bosnia "You can support the troops but NOT the president." So how is it different today ?

WP

Like a said, the AL was a bunch of old WW2 guys and I'd suspect their leadership are a bunch of old right wingers too. Especially the ones that have the bucks to go to a convention in Hawaii.

Most of the guys I know from VN joined the VFW or motorcycle clubs. Their politics run all over the place.

Yesterday was listening to 97.1 KLSX in LA something called the John and Jeff show. A caller called in for their so called free advice. Said he was on leave from Iraq for 10 days and said he was thinking about going AWOL. He said he was in the service for 10 years mainly in Germany and then got shipped to Iraq as a medic and they keep extending his stay. He said Host,"who's war is it?" answer: George Bush..corporations. Host," Have you been drinking?" answer: Yes. Now these guys claim to be intelligent but what they went on to say was not really well we need to investigate your words or you are correct that this war like 911 was built on lies to forward the Bushit administration. What they did say was you need to report to your corporal.. you need pschychological counciling bla bla bla. This country is so mislead and divided by fcking lies. Even if getting counciling is a good answer until a majority of American are on the same page about the truth of the war, what the robots in CONGRESS have passed as bills and voted against the American people, reversing environmental laws and standards, advocating an illegal war and a fraudulent Presidential election, we are lost in operation MINDFCK. Lastly this reporter who wrote a book named Terry McDermott was on the Late Night with Craig Ferguson show. He wrote a book called INSIDE 911. Beside espouting the White House version of 911 and forgiving Muslims civilians for being " common and OK" this piece of crap must be exposed for the lying murderers he is protecting. I wrote a letter to the Craig show because this staged lyer must be strung up with the Bushit administration and jailed. Bastard.

My husband, who had belonged to the American Legion for over 40 years, resigned about 3 years ago because of the increasingly right wing-slanted articles published in the Legion magazine. One article, I remember, was taken verbatim from the Washington Times, and another encouraged the Boy Scouts to deny membership to gays. I could never figure out what the American Legion was doing telling the Boy Scouts how to run their organization. I'll bet that the Legion has lost a lot of other members in the past few years. Their mail begging my husband to rejoin has become increasingly aggressive. We tear it into small shreds before we recycle it.

Well, I guess if it's our freedom those cowardly terrorists hate, we can rest more easily now.

You go for it, spitfire #4!!! No more wimpiness about important issues.

MY hair is on fire!

Hi Teri #1

I think if you go back and really research what was going on during the protest of the VN war, you will find that the same complicit media tactics used today were at work back then, designed to attack "Liberals" (AKA anti-war activists.) This isn't something that just started.

The media caused people to think the anti-war movement was "against" our troops, when in fact, it was much the same as it is today. We just want our troops home because we are fighting an illegetimate, illegal and immoral war. We weren't attacked by the Iraqis.

You know it just is crazy...the arguement that more men and women have to die so that those who already died didn't die in vain.

Article from The Capitol Times by Steve Elbow on the death of Mark Maida, Milwaukee 3 year veteran.
Mark was STILL without protective gear and using a Humvee (characterize as a lightly plated pickup) at his death on My 24,05. Mark told his family, of the chaos by commanders directing his unit, was afraid to write to his congressman...stopped loss with a month to go for over a year.

Two months later the mililtary still had not contacted the family with the details of Mark's death. They read about it in The Washington Post.

'A Military spokesman said, we are still not prepared to deal with families on the death of their loved ones.'

And we have kool aid drinkers who want to follow this leader?????????? Let them sign up so our guys who want to come can come home.

I called my local American Legion chapter and left a scathing message and then emailed the commander that made those comments.

What a disgusting, vile, un-patriotic speech. He should be ashamed of himself.

Charlie

You know this Administration...and their leader have done more to create a civil war in the United States than any other president in history !!!

We have to send more Americans to their death because so those who died will not have died in vain.

We have to finish the job because we started it.

WMDs - what WMDs? -HaHaHa

We will decide who is and who is not a terrorist, and we will decide when you are protected by the Bill of Rights and when you aren't. Leave it to us, your big brother, and keep shopping, driving, and waving your plastic flags.

From Mr. Cadmus --- We must end all public protests and media events against the war (freedoms protected by the First Amendment)because we must not demoralize the troops who are fighting to protect our freedom. Uh, uh, well...uh...

Bubbleheads most effectively delineated, not by the many fine progressive columnists, but by a national treasure, Tom Tomorrow, IMO. I hope he does a cartoon on Mr. Cadmus and the AL.

A despicable speech that should be rejected and condemed by all Americans.

By the way, here's a letter from AL National Commander in 1999 to Clinton.

Interesting you mentioned "create a civil war in the United States"... that was my thought this morning. Everything "he" has done calls for divisiveness and extreme polarization. The perfect combination for a civil war. If a group of people wanted to create an enormous change in a society, without utilizing the normal legislative process, a civil war would appear to be a viable course. And "he" and his unscrupulous cronies are demented enough to attempt it.

"he" remains nameless because we'll never know quite who "he" is.

Post #15 is for Texaslady in post #13.

I had to write a letter to the AL on just how wrong they are. I was a protester during the VN War and I truly feel protesting ended the war sooner than later. I never thought I'd be there again! I can't begin to understand where bush stands or his thinking. I gave up. I will NEVER give up until the rigged election is brought forward and HE is GONE!!!

#3 Texaslady

I also lost a loved one and friends in Vietnam. I understand the horror of watching this happen again. Never in my wildest imagination, did I imagine this happening AGAIN. I feel so betrayed.

Nothing, the 58,000 souls died for nothing.

How did this happen to us? What did we do wrong?

The irony is that people like this jerk would be the first to point to the original American Patriots of the Revolutionary War as great heroes, apparently not realizing that, if they had followed his guidelines for proper protest ("No one respects the right to protest more than one who has fought for it, but we hope that Americans will present their views in correspondence to their elected officials rather than by public media events...") there wouldn't have been a United States of America in the first place (and there won't be a recognizable one in the future if his ilk have their way). He is a true TRAITOR to the ideals this country was founded on!

Nana #18 -

We allowed corporations to take over by stealth while we were too busy living our hectic lives to notice. That "we" undoubtedly does not apply to the majority of people on this blog (I've been a democratic socialist my entire adult life and lead as non-consumer an exisatence as I can). But "we," the collective we, have been drugged by things, glitz and so-called "entertainment" until we've lost our spiritual and intellectual bearings. That's why the present state of affairs is so shocking.

Who'd'a thunk...our very own fake hillbilly Hitler?

GoldStar Family Member to 'American Legion'

[snip] America Legion's Attack on Dissidents, A Gold Star Families for Peace Member's Response
Diana Rowe Pauls
dianapauls@earthlink.net
Gold Star Families For Peace
Sister of Marine KIA/Member of American Legion Auxiliary

Dear Honorable Commander Cadmus,

I learned today that the American Legion passed Resolution 3, which states: "The American Legion fully supports the president of the United States, the United States Congress and the men, women and leadership of our armed forces as they are engaged in the global war on terrorism and the troops who are engaged in protecting our values and way of life."

I would like to bring to your attention a previous position from the American Legion.

In 1999, the American Legion wrote the following letter to President Clinton:

The American Legion, a wartime veterans organization of nearly three-million members, urges the immediate withdrawal of American troops participating in "Operation Allied Force.''

The National Executive Committee of The American Legion, meeting in Indianapolis today, adopted Resolution 44, titled "The American Legion's Statement on Yugoslavia.'' This resolution was debated and adopted unanimously.

Mr. President, the United States Armed Forces should never be committed to wartime operations unless the following conditions are fulfilled:

That there be a clear statement by the President of why it is in our vital national interests to be engaged in hostilities;

Guidelines be established for the mission, including a clear exit strategy;

That there be support of the mission by the U.S. Congress and the American people; and
That it be made clear that U.S. Forces will be commanded only by U.S. officers whom we acknowledge are superior military leaders.

It is the opinion of The American Legion, which I am sure is shared by the majority of Americans, that three of the above listed conditions have not been met in the current joint operation with NATO ("Operation Allied Force'').

In no case should America commit its Armed Forces in the absence of clearly defined objectives agreed upon by the U.S. Congress in accordance with Article I, Section 8, of the Constitution of the United States. [snip] ***MORE***

I'm starting an activist mailing list for those people who want to get legislation passed now and who want to do more than wait until elections and more than want to complain about Republicans. send email to

webmaster@boycott-republicans.com with the subject

ACTIVISM

I encourage you to get as many friends, fellow workers, and people you will get to know to join my mailing list.

FOR KIRA

Diana Rowe Pauls excellent letter sure hasn't left The "Honorable" Commander Cadmus with much wriggle space!
Even Harry Houdini would have struggled to get out this one.

I'm sick of these veterans who think they have more rights than other American citizens! They excersized their freedom of speech, I heard them, it's duly noted what they said, and I'm not listening to them!

Bushw@cker #23!!! What a screeeam! Love it. How do you do that? Oh wait ... maybe I can too!

KIRA Well Done and THANK YOU!
Torqued is a clever cookie isn't he?

I'm off to a Cindy (no need for the surname) Vigil in my home town of Melbourne at 6pm tonight.
I'll be packing the camcorder and will forward Brad the footage if it turns out OK.

Might even send you a video cheerio!

To the other Cindy [Crawford] sorry kid, looks can only get you so far!

Steve #19
Well said!

To alot of these right winger Legionnaires freedom means
freedom for them and suppression of freedom for us.

Alot of Legionnaires want freedom

1. for companies to conduct business without regulation

2. For them to praise the chimp but not allow us to criticize the chimp.

3. To vote conservative despite that the conservative government cuts their medical benefits but criticize liberals when convenient. 9-11 did not happen under Clinton Gore. 9-11 happened under the smirking chimp but alot of Legionaires don't care because it appears really about conservative economic policies for them. They thought the chimp wouldn't cut their VA benefits. Boy they look stupid.

boycott-republicans.com

:-) Bushw@cker. Hope you enjoy the vigil. Funny ... you mentioned Cindy [Crawford] --- I was thinking Cindy in Crawford [TX] !!! Took a little while, then I got it!

Yes --- Torqued is a real smart cookie. What would we do without him?

Here's something OT ... worth seeing again!

American Civil Liberties Union // Surveillance

The government and corporations are aggressively collecting information about your personal life and your habits. They want to track your purchases, your medical records, and even your relationships. The Bush Administration's policies, coupled with invasive new technologies, could eliminate your right to privacy completely. Please help us protect our privacy rights and prevent the Total Surveillance Society.

Yes KIRA seems like Huxley's Brave New World is well and truly upon us!
Total Surveillance Society - SHUDDER!

Bushw@cker #76 -

God bless the bleedin' Aussies!! All love to you and best blessings!!!

Bushw@cker #26 -

Oops. G'night.

Thanks PEG C #31
You've certainly got the Aussie lingo down pat!
By royal ascent, I dub you honorary Aussie!
Who knows 6 or 7 of you may wish to migrate downunder if you don't succeed in fixing your "fixed" elections soon!
......Then again, we are being "ruled" by an arrogant, power drunk, Bush loving government who was only too happy to put our troops in harms way, based on the same lies in order to broker a Free Trade Agreement with the US.
Unlike with your illegitimately elected pResident, sadly a clear majority of Australians voted for these blokes and we have the paper ballots that were manually counted to prove it.........Ah real democracy in action, DON'T LEAVE HOME WITHOUT IT!!!

I have just returned from our Cindy Sheehan Vigil in Melbourne, there was a small but passionate group who vowed to return each Saturday in solidarity with Cindy.

Here's what the Legion had to say to Clinton. What hypocrites!

President William J. Clinton
The White House
Washington, DC 20500

Dear Mr. President:
The American Legion, a wartime veterans organization of nearly three-million members, urges the immediate withdrawal of American troops participating in “Operation Allied Force.”
The National Executive Committee of The American Legion, meeting in Indianapolis today, adopted Resolution 44, titled “The American Legion’s Statement on Yugoslavia.” This resolution was debated and adopted unanimously.
Mr. President, the United States Armed Forces should never be committed to wartime operations unless the following conditions are fulfilled:
• That there be a clear statement by the President of why it is in our vital national interests to be engaged in hostilities;
• Guidelines be established for the mission, including a clear exit strategy;
• That there be support of the mission by the U.S. Congress and the American people; and
• That it be made clear that U.S. Forces will be commanded only by U.S. officers which we acknowledge are superior military leaders.
It is the position of The American Legion, which I am sure is shared by the majority of Americans, that three of the above listed conditions have not been met in the current joint operation with NATO (“Operation Allied Force”).
In no case should America commit its Armed Forces in the absence of clearly defined objectives agreed upon by the U.S. Congress in accordance with Article I, Section 8, of the Constitution of the United States.

Sincerely,

HAROLD L. “BUTCH” MILLER
National Commander

Peg C

Please excuse my use of 'we', I am part of a large family unit where the use of 'I' or 'me' over used is considered an insult. I mean no offense, it reflects I speak for my family unit. I'll be more careful.

I guess I ask the wrong question. Yes, it has been a hectic life, but I did the best I could. I paid my taxes, voted, never broke a law or vow that I can recall.
Not much opportunity for glitz or entertainment, and my spiritual bearings were in tact until recently. Some confusion there now.
I guess it could be said I've been a non-consumer most of my life out of necessity, couldn't afford otherwise. It holds true for today.
Maybe there are no questions or answers. Maybe it doesn't matter.

Nana #3 -

It is not "what did we do wrong?" This man and his administration were put into power with money and fraud.

I am willing to wager that we all know those who condemn Michael Moore's movie Farenheit 9/11 and haven't even seen it !!! At least check out the other opinion, you can then disagree from your own knowledge, not what you have heard or been told.

But Nana, that takes someone willing to think, to question and say wait a minute. And it is too easy to just let someone else think for you.

Notice how the right-wings never say facts they just name call...doesn't that remind you of children on the playground? Well, some people just get taller not necessarily smarter.

Been hearing on randirhodes how the guard have to eat bad food and have 3 bottles of water a day. I wonder if bush is doing this on purpose because he was kicked out of the guard. Chris Mathews even said if this administration had a weakness it was the payback mentality. Karl Rove leaked name of plame, given a raise. then a promotion. Old scores settled ..hatred of N. y. times.they are seen now as a bogus paper...anyone who criticizes him. It is way past time our troops could have had adequate armor. The pentagon loses a trillion a year under this administration. They were selling flak jackets for pennies on the dollar on ebay. I saw that on cspan at a hearing chaired by Rep. Chris Shay, of course it was on in the early morning hours when most people were asleep. Wish I'd never seen it.

Kira

I'm not sure why you think we disagree. Must be the way I worded it.

OK, for the record. I think the AM Legion is a bunch of old geezers and yes, they are tools of the right wing.

Yes, I fully understand how the MSM is compliciant in banging the war drums and dissing the anti war movement or pretending it doesn't exist.

My concern is that we revert back to the days of VN when it was the soldiers that took the heat (baby killers?) and not the war mongers who sent them there. This "they voluteered and knew what they were getting into" is a load of crap, especially because so many are National Guard or thought they were going to hunt down OBL and because you can't make an 18 year old kid understand what being in battle is going to be like until they actually live through it and even then, the idea that your "commader in chief" sent you there for War Profits is just asking alot for a young kid to wrap their brain around.

And last but not least, why did you feel the need to tell me that Iraq didn't attack us? Do I come across as some nutwinglander to you? And I'm old enough to remeber VN and I doubt there's much about those times that you could tell me about that I didn't live through.

> One of my greatest fears is that the Iraq vets will be treated as badly as the VN vets were. It won't be liberals who do that, it will be the neo-cons trying to further devide us. All they have to do is get a few National Guard to point their guns at a peace rally. Kent State, re-dux.

I was in a Bible class one Sunday AM and there was close to 300 people in the room. Yes, that is more than Sheehan's tent city. The room was crowded and hard to see. When it was brought to our attention that one in the crowd just came back from Iraq, what happened next was a very long spontaneous standing ovation. It was quite moving and emotional. It won't be the Right who divides the nation on this issue and who will spit on our troops. The same people who spit on the VN vets are the same protestors, dope smokers, pacifists, and traitors today. Yes, you are traitors! You are helping the enemy. But, you certainly have that right.

When Clinton was president, the Twin Towers were not knocked down. Things change. You cannot compare.

#39 To quote one of your people " You CAN support the troops and not the president."
Tom Delay - when Clinton went into Bosnia.

It amazes me that Christians forget the commandment Thou shall not kill. Not thou shall not kill except.. The wording is Thou Shall Not Kill.

It is not dishonoring the men and women who have died BECAUSE THEIR LEADERS LIED.
BUT CONTINUING TO LET OUR YOUNG DIE FOR A LIE BECAUSE WE CAN'T ADMIT WE WERE WRONG THAT IS THE DISHONOR.

Also, those of you who want to be informed go talk to the recruiters...ask them where they are going to for their cannon fodder....they are going to the inner cities..to towns without alot of employment, to areas where kids are not GIVEN college tuition and cars.

We have a very exclusive area, NOT ONE RECRUITING OFFICE IS THERE.

Five miles away, a small country town, 4 offices within a 25 mile area ! Hello ?

Hi Teri! LOL --- sorry for the confusion. I only intended adding to your comment. I'm sorry it came across that way - as I remember I was pretty exhausted when I got to this thread to made comments. I, too, lived through those days --- I was an adult then, too.

Please accept my apology for not being clear!

Rock on, TERI!

#39 - Let's dispense with the old spitting on returning vets story. It's an urban myth, another phony emotional canard of the right to obscure the true issues.

Please read this article .

#39

Haha! Just whose watch did that occur on? Along with all the rest of the awful things affecting our country now ... ??? Can you say, "DUHBYA?"

Just watch for this --- the guy who's squatting in the WH is running the US into the ground --- El-Busto (Ar*busto) --- just like every other business he ever had.

You people who aren't paying attention are in for a real big surprise ...... sooner than you think.

Wake up sheeples.

re #43 that's a good article but I don't think it tells the whole story... another part of the story goes: "Young Republicans" were hired to abuse returning vets in an effort to discredit the anti-war movement. One of those who did the hiring was Donald Segretti, who went on to mentor Karl Rove. It's just one dirty trick after another with these guys. Forgive me while I throw up!

At one time I was a member of the AL, but after a time all I saw was a bunch of bitter old drunks who could not forget Vietnam.

The men from WWII and Korea were fine gentlemen, but not those from my time.

Yes, I still have nightmares about my time in-country, but I have no bitterness left.

I have two sons in Iraq, both are career soldiers, not like some AL members who did only two years active duty and would not have done that if they hadn't been drafted.

My 25 years of Active duty counts BIG TIME guys, and by "any means possible" let me leave you with your Coward-in-Chief's words "Bring it own".

I despise these people so much, that I have become one of them. It is wrong and I apologize.

Praise God All Mighty for the MEN (you weenie LIEbrals may need to look up the definition for that word MAN) of The American Legion and our military in world wide. Republicans control, the white house, the senate, the house, we hold the majority of governorships and state representatives. Hmmm, yup, you LOONS are gaining in numbers, alright! LMAO!!!

Somebody ran out of their meds, eh? (#48) LMAO!!

Bushw@cker #26 --- How'd the vid turn out?

#47 - I don't know what you mean, Nana. You're A-OK with me.

KIRA, Steven Spielberg won't need to eat his heart out just yet With a little judicious editing, there may be something worth uploading for you guys to see!
Wouldn't you know it, there was a herd of "LOUD" Christians (Paul's mob) competing with our dignified "s i l e n t" Vigil for Cindy and sadly the camcorder mic was not directional enough to separate FACT from CruciFICTION!

For all those NOISY Evangelists, Instant Karma's gonna get you!

I've completely missed all the BradShow / Air America (I have to sleep sometime) hopefully there will be an mp3 of it!
Now I know how Linda Blair felt, my head is constantly spinning with the torrent of news and information pouring into the BradBlog!
Could be worse though, at least my hair hasn’t caught fire...... yet!

KIRA, you don't happen to have the name of a good EXORCIST do ya?

One minute Bush concedes that Cindy is entitled to speak out against the war, though he "disagrees with her position" (which she never actually took) that we withdraw from Iraq.

The next minute, Bush is appearing with an American Legion airhead who equates dissent with disloyalty (that old Vietnam-era "...aid and comfort to the enemy" crap). Forget that nobody takes American Legionnaires seriously any more; just look at the shamelessness of Bush, using a surrogate to espouse a position that he himself eschewed the day before.

Bush thinks everyone else is as dumb as he is. The odds against that possbility are 969,000 to 1...roughly the same as the odds against a 5-1/2% discrepancy between exit polls and tabulated votes.

The Constitution requires that the government not abridge the right of peaceful protestors to speak out about the war and denigrate the views others have.
The Constitution requires that the government not abrige the right of the American Legion to speak out in favor of the war and denigrate the views others have.
Both sides are now exercising their rights. Bravo.
Remember, each side has the same right, not just those who agree with you.

:OI read that decades ago American Legion
Members dressed in hoods at night like the
Klu Klux Klan on horseback, to go beat & kill
wobblies (Union Members) Remember Legion-
airres disease?

Actually, Legionaires' disease is caused by mold in the air ducts and in other parts of the ventilation system, the tiny spores being inhaled from what I understand.

Unless you are referring to the peculiar mental illness that tends to afflict American Legion members that makes it impossible for them to understand the concept of hypocrisy. That's a different matter and has nothing to do with mold.