READER COMMENTS ON
"GANDHI: Does Reality Even Matter?"
(42 Responses so far...)
COMMENT #1 [Permalink]
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gandhi
said on 7/12/2005 @ 5:06 pm PT...
Thanks again, WP and it's a pleasure to be part of the blogathon.
I think there are two key parts to this "reality" thread: firstly, the extent to which the Bush neo-cons have succeeded in their bizzarro quest to re-invent reality, and secondly, how we who remain in the "reality-based community" are responding to their warped distortions.
There are a lot of related articles wherein anti-Bush commenters have bemoaned the seeming insanity that sometimes seems to be enveloping us like a dark cloud. For example:
- Maureen Dowd says, "It's their reality. We just live in it." (from NYT, April 25) - and see her book, BushWorld.
- John S. Hatch has a great new post at Smirky's.
- Riverbend's family talk about "the *other* Iraq� the one with the WMD.�
And as an example of how the neocons continue to distort reality, the latest talking points being used to defend Karl Rove make a great example! See Josh Marshall here and here and here and here...
COMMENT #2 [Permalink]
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gandhi
said on 7/12/2005 @ 5:12 pm PT...
... and when you have finished reading all that, drop me a line!
COMMENT #3 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 7/12/2005 @ 6:03 pm PT...
Ghandi -
Superb essay! It goes right along with a DemocracyNow! report this morning, in which Ken Tomlinson, head of CPB, talked about "fair and balanced" coverage on public radio and television. Real, fact-based investigative journalism (as in that of Bill Moyers' "Now") was adjudged to have a "liberal bias," whereas it was moderation in fact-telling versus outright spin that he deemed "balanced." Senator Durbin really grilled him, but the opaque, inarticulate awfulness just barely masquerading as a human being slimed his way out of answering any of the questions put to him - by appearing to say something - or a least moving his lips and producing sounds.
COMMENT #4 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 7/12/2005 @ 6:05 pm PT...
Oops...where did that winking smiley come from? Believe me, Ghandi, I didn't put it there!
COMMENT #5 [Permalink]
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gandhi
said on 7/12/2005 @ 6:46 pm PT...
'sarright , peg, the smiley's won' hurt us!
Of course, the key to changing everybody else's reality (not just their own little world) is the Bush cabal's control of the media via Rupert Murdoch's FOX news and other outlets. This is how the Bush team ensure they get that winning 49% "majority". The attacks on PBS and any other outlet that dares criticize their lies is standard fare.
You have to wonder whether these idealogues are really so blinded that they THINK there is a liberal bias in the media, or whether perhaps it is just a ploy to maintain control of the propaganda.
COMMENT #6 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 7/12/2005 @ 6:55 pm PT...
You have to wonder whether these idealogues are really so blinded that they THINK there is a liberal bias in the media, or whether perhaps it is just a ploy to maintain control of the propaganda.
No I don't! I don't wonder at all. It's a deliberate ploy. Been going on for years! Hi Gandhi! Nice to have you here with us!
COMMENT #7 [Permalink]
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William
said on 7/12/2005 @ 7:01 pm PT...
Ghandi -
Like Winter Patriot has said many times we have to be the media through the Whispering Campaign.
Also I write my Representatives constantly so they can be informed also. Believe it or not, many of my letters are answered.
I believe they are waiting to see what people are thinking before acting on anything.
So keep those cards and letters (and flyers) coming.
Thank you for your time.
COMMENT #8 [Permalink]
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gandhi
said on 7/12/2005 @ 7:04 pm PT...
Hi WP. Nice to be here.
I think there is necessarily a mix of those who are true believers and those who are just opportunists.
The really astonishing thing is how they get Joe Blow and his wife on-side. How many times do you look at all those pro-Bush blogs and ask yourself, "Who reads this crap?"
Mind you, with a little digging you often discover that the bloggers are not all they pretend to be. For example, Arthur "Good News" Chrenkoff works for a Liberal Senator (that's the Aussie war party of choice for Bush & Co), while Ali Fadhil has admitted that his ITM brothers were mislead by neocon reps in Iraq...
Which brings us back to my favourite Bush quote, the one which makes sense of everything else:
"You can't fool all of the people all of the time, but you can fool some of the people all of the time - and they're the one's you've gotta concentrate
on!"
COMMENT #9 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 7/12/2005 @ 7:54 pm PT...
Here's a quick recap:
G: "You have to wonder whether these idealogues are really so blinded that they THINK there is a liberal bias in the media"
WP: "No I don't! I don't wonder at all. It's a deliberate ploy. Been going on for years!"
G: "I think there is necessarily a mix of those who are true believers and those who are just opportunists. "
ok now ... I might be willing to give a bit of ground on this one if you define "THEY" ... my first thought was guys like rove and scottie telling everyone who will listen: "Hey we're really not all that bad --- we're just getting creamed by the liberal media!" ... which sure seems like a ploy to me.
Of course there are others with other motivations ... so many of them that it's tough to get a read on the motivating factors ... at least for me it is ... but I do believe that ignorance and stupidity are very powerful forces on the American political scene, and they are both on the rise in modern America, thanks in no small part to the bush administration's continuing triple-pronged war on science, education and the news media.
Just my opinion as always in matters of this sort ... but I think you are exactly right, Gandhi. And I also think this administration has an active policy of trying to confuse every issue it can't bury completely.
COMMENT #10 [Permalink]
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Arry
said on 7/12/2005 @ 8:31 pm PT...
#9 WP says - " I do believe that ignorance and stupidity are very powerful forces on the American political scene, and they are both on the rise in modern America"
Certainly agree with you. In fact, I think the dumbing of the population is the only way the administation can exist. Actually, there has been a dumbing trend for years, as I'm sure you are aware, built into the whole corporate colonization of culture. (And it has been quite consciously perpetrated.) The bush gang - if we can name the gang for the front man - thrive in that way of life and are taking it to an absurd, final (we shall hope), and recognizable level where propaganda, lies, coverups...money laundering, murder...have become crime pure and simple. Amazing how a fanaticism for empire and a compusion to control, when seen without accouterments, is something as familiar as unadulterated crime.
I believe stupidity and ignorance is rising on one side and intelligence and knowledge is rising on another in reaction. Where they meet there is a reaction, a clash. It pretty much defines the era we are in. I guess we live in "interesting times."
COMMENT #11 [Permalink]
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gandhi
said on 7/12/2005 @ 8:57 pm PT...
From WP #9:
I might be willing to give a bit of ground on this one if you define "THEY" ...
That's the thing with the Bush cabal - there are so many interested parties working together that it is almost always impossible to nail the real culprits on any one issue, especially as they all rush to one another's defence.
I think the True Believers are the hard-core neo-conservatives who carved out an ideological path ten years or more ago, the authors of the PNAC and their myriad devotees. I think that's why Paul Wolfowitz makes these occasionally horrific gaffes, like admitting that the WMD issue was always just a convenient pretext for the invasion they always wanted. It's actually a kind of naivety - he can't think why anyone might be offended by that!
COMMENT #12 [Permalink]
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Arry
said on 7/12/2005 @ 8:57 pm PT...
To stay on a philosophical level --- Could it be that morality (that defines "crime" ultimately, I would assume)....morality that we have discussed here and that the busheviks like to talk about [but they "make their own reality"]...could it be that morality is reality-based?
(I think the answer is "yes".)
COMMENT #13 [Permalink]
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gandhi
said on 7/12/2005 @ 9:15 pm PT...
From Arry #10:
Where they meet there is a reaction, a clash. It pretty much defines the era we are in.
Well, that pretty much defines where the USA is at right now, but the rest of the world is just watching from the sidelines with a mixture of fear and bemusement. A real end-of-empire scenario, which is ironic because this is supposed to be the START of the Empire, isn't it?
True, Britain and Australia and Spain and Italy and other countries have governments which have ignored their citizen's wishes to join Bush's illegal war, but there is nothing happening (even here in Oz, where our militant PM wants to drag us back to the 1950s) like the ideological clash of Blue states v. Red states (or should that be Blue People v. Red People?) going on in the USA.
What's amazing is how inflamed US passions seem to be becoming on both sides - I can easily understand the anger against Bush & Co, but it's important to also try and understand the feelings and thoughts of those "on the other side". Again, there seem to be two kinds of people raging against the "negativity" of the left: those who still believe the Bush lies, and those who originally bought into the Bush lies and now feel angry and frustrated at the way it is all being torn down.
Of course, rather than acknowledging that the sheer force of REALITY is what's bringing down the Bush house of lies, they prefer to blame the Liberals because it is more convenient and doesn't make them feel so bad.
I do sometimes fear that this cultural clash will eventually spill into violence, particularly as the Bush cabal has expressed a determination to maintain GOP control of everything, forever. Here's our old friend Tom De Lay after the elections last year:
"... we gained 4 more seats in the Senate, a bigger majority in the House, Bush is back in the White House; we will now be about securing permanent Republican rule."
The Rove-Plame debate and the Bolton nominations are good test cases - will the Bush cabal ever back down on anything???
COMMENT #14 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 7/12/2005 @ 9:18 pm PT...
re #12. Arry, that's because you're reality-based. For faith-based people, everything is faith-based, so they say "no".
According to them, if they believe they're doing the right thing then they're doing the right thing. End of story. And that's why guys like richard perle can say things like
"I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing."
psst! pass it on!
COMMENT #15 [Permalink]
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gandhi
said on 7/12/2005 @ 9:28 pm PT...
From Arry #12:
could it be that morality is reality-based?
(I think the answer is "yes".)
That's what I was trying to argue in my intro to this guest blog post.
Life is a bit like a game of chess - it's not really the board or the pieces that matter, it's the rules and how you apply them. The board and the pieces are just the "reality-based" components that are required for the game to be played out...
What I cannot understand is how Bush & Co claim the moral high ground for all their lies, and how the Christian right go along with it! It is going to be a very big and spectacular fall, when it comes...
COMMENT #16 [Permalink]
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jIM cIRILE
said on 7/12/2005 @ 9:35 pm PT...
One of the really cool things about Brad Blog is discovering new voices out there through it. Thanks to Brad Blog I've recently gotten into Greg Palast and now Gandhi. Gandhi, that's one great blog you've got there. I look forward to probing it in-depth... though likely not in the same way Guckert no doubt probed GWB all those nights he spent at the White House... ahem.
Nice work indeed.
COMMENT #17 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 7/12/2005 @ 9:43 pm PT...
re #13 ... What can I say, my online friend? I share your trepidation.
COMMENT #18 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 7/12/2005 @ 9:45 pm PT...
re #16 I am with you TOTALLY on that one, jIM! I've been saying "that's one great blog" for a long time.
COMMENT #19 [Permalink]
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Bear
said on 7/12/2005 @ 9:55 pm PT...
If any of you are interested in gaining insight into the Bush voting base "Reality", take a Sunday morning and attend church service at an evangelical establishment. May I suggest a Bible Baptist service. If you don't walk out chilled, you have anti-freeze for blood. Research Bob Jones, Lester Roloff and other esteemed leaders of this sect. They could use the old phrase "The end justifies the means" as their motto.
COMMENT #20 [Permalink]
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gandhi
said on 7/12/2005 @ 9:56 pm PT...
WP #14 said:
"For faith-based people, everything is faith-based..."
That's why they are all (NOT!) joining the Armed Forces, or sending their children off to Iraq (NOT!), secure in the knowledge that their prayers will protect them! Kevlar? Who needs it!
Lest I come across as a heathen liberal pagan whatever, I do myself have some faith in the power of prayer, BUT...
When I was young, I prayed for a blue bicycle, feeling guilty(*) at the same time for not spending my time praying for something more spiritual, like an end to poverty in Africa. When I finally got the blue bicycle (OK so I supplemented my prayers with some demands to my parents!) it had a broken wheel, so I couldn't ride it. My Dad took it to the bike shop for repairs, but for one reason of another (lack of cash, I think) the bike never came back home. I took it as a lesson: God doesn't care about prayers like that. Be careful what you wish for - and be careful what you pray for!
I was eight years old when Iearned that lesson - how old are the Bush voters?
This little personal anecdote links up with that John Hatch piece I linked to earlier:
I believed the nuns when they told me that only Catholics could go to heaven. My father was a Protestant. Tough luck, Dad, see you later! That's what you get for being a Baptist, or whatever. But I was only six. When I was a man, I still believed in America. Stupid, but there you go!
* - Catholic upbringing: guilt is a big part of it!
COMMENT #21 [Permalink]
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gandhi
said on 7/12/2005 @ 10:01 pm PT...
jIM cIRILE - thanks and enjoy the blog!
COMMENT #22 [Permalink]
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jIM cIRILE
said on 7/12/2005 @ 10:05 pm PT...
Gandhi, do you think that in light of first the DSM coming to light, and now Plamegate, the press might be finally starting to find its nads? The questions leveled by the Washington Press Corps at Scottie McLyin' literally made me cheer! And if so... if this all this scandal does begin to unravel the emperor's clothes finally... do you think some of them will be emboldened to write/ask about the stolen election and (gasp) the truth about 9-11?
I realize it's silly to speculate, but I just want to see if you have any sort of idea of what's going on in the average MSM reporter/editor mindset. One hopes there have to be some good newspaper editors out finally ready to risk the wrath of Cheney and Rove (and firing by their corporate masters) by speaking out--IF they perceived the administration is critically wounded...
COMMENT #23 [Permalink]
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Arry
said on 7/12/2005 @ 10:13 pm PT...
#13 --- Gandhi --- I certainly was referring to the U.S.
"A real end-of-empire scenario, which is ironic because this is supposed to be the START of the Empire, isn't it?" --- There is some humor in this farce.
Another group of people we have to consider --- and it may be quite a large group - are those who have no great psychic investment in the the bushites but who think you fight for your country, you defend your property, and so on. Ignorance rules, but they may not be dumb people. I meet a lot of these people and many of them are getting fed up with bush.
Many of my relatives are ranchers. At a reunion, a couple of them pulled me aside "We have to talk", bought me some beer and we had a long talk. I can tell you that although they probably voted for bush, they are not about to give up their freedoms (a la "PATRIOT" Act) without a fight. (They are Montanans, by the way. Montana recently passed a tough pro-Constitution, anti "PATRIOT" Act resolution.)
We also discovered that most of our "disagreements" weren't really disagreements at all. We had been talking in different terms. The main thing that came out of it that impressed me was their attitude of, "We are willing to listen to you. We are having our doubts, too. We just don't like people to be so sure of themselves that they are not willing to listen to *us*". That was a very big thing to them. It was an enlightening experience for me, and I certainly learned a few things.
These people are not religious fanatics. They do believe in strong families and hard work and many of the traditional values. (And they don't like big corporations much more than I do.)
I'm just going the long way around to get to the point that there may be a part of the population that we tend not to see in our analyses.
(This would also tend to vitiate, to some extent, my previous two sides argument.)
COMMENT #24 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 7/12/2005 @ 10:27 pm PT...
Very interesting discussion here ... Quoting Gandhi from #20:
WP #14 said:
"For faith-based people, everything is faith-based..."
That's why they are all (NOT!) joining the Armed Forces, or sending their children off to Iraq (NOT!), secure in the knowledge that their prayers will protect them! Kevlar? Who needs it!
Hard to tell whether I'm being misinterpreted or not ... I don't mean to imply that all faith-based people are ready to feed their kids to the war machine or anything like that ... and in fact there are many faith-based people who have no faith in bush ... what I did mean was that people tend to be either faith-based or reality-based ... if you're faith-based then your faith trumps all objective reality ... or at least that's how it is for all the faith-based people I know ... and I live with a bunch of 'em.
Your experience may differ and if so I would certainly like to read about it.
COMMENT #25 [Permalink]
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gandhi
said on 7/12/2005 @ 10:39 pm PT...
JC #22:
I just want to see if you have any sort of idea of what's going on in the average MSM reporter/editor mindset....
Can't claim to be much of a mind-reader, although I have done freelance journo work and very nearly became a cadet at Reuters...
One thing that has always puzzled me is why Ruport Murdoch et al haven't decided to spill the beans on all the shenanigans - they would sure boost their flagging sales in a hurry if they did!
Maybe Murdoch et al are too personally implicated, or is is just the carrot on the end of the free-press-expansion-rules stick that keeps them hanging on?
As for reporters, you can waste a lot of time and even lose your job by writing stories which have zero chance of publication (e.g. "BUSH IS A LYING FASCIST"). And editors lose their jobs even faster if they ignore the CEOs...
I think it is all a question of balance, and how many facts can be ignored or suppressed before US public opinion turns against Bush & Co once and for all. When that happens, I don't think there will be any turning back, and there could be no end of scandals coming out in the wash... Let's hope the cleanup will be more rigorous than the Church Commission that left people like Cheney and Rumsfeld still operating, but most importantly right now let's stay busy to help make it happen, eh?!
The Rove-Plame story is one that simply cannot be ignored, even if it is a bit hard to explain in a 30 sec TV grab.
This has given wannabe Bob Woodwards a bit of a sugar hit. As Jon Stewart said today: "We have secretly replaced the White House press corps with actual reporters."
COMMENT #26 [Permalink]
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jIM cIRILE
said on 7/12/2005 @ 10:47 pm PT...
>>Jon Stewart said today: "We have secretly replaced the White House press corps with actual reporters."
bWAH HA HA HA! gO, JON STEWART! (EVEN THOUGH HAL JORDAN IS STILL MY FAVORITE GREEN LANTERN.)
COMMENT #27 [Permalink]
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gandhi
said on 7/12/2005 @ 10:53 pm PT...
Arry #23:
We also discovered that most of our "disagreements" weren't really disagreements at all...
I am really glad to hear a positive story like that, and it reinforces what I said earlier about the need to understand those who support Bush. As you say, these are not all greedy, dumb or wilfully obtuse people - but LAWD ONLY KNOWS it's hard to change their minds, innit???!
Part of the reason my blog is not very well known is probably that I don't hang out much on left-wing sites - I prefer to post at the right-wing blogs, because these are the people whose views (and votes) we need to change!
COMMENT #28 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 7/12/2005 @ 10:56 pm PT...
Ghandi #13 -
"Two kinds of people" indeed. Very quickly, before I go to bed for good, I'll mention that ongoing speciation was a conviction of mine in the mid-seventies, based upon perceived divergences of patterns of thought, ways of making ideational connections. An essay is forthcoming, but that's the premise - and it came to me as a revelation just after Nixon's resignation and the first big oil crisis.
Some humans value life as a miraculous opportunity to become more alive. Others esteem it only as time spent, preferably in improving their material lot to the maximum "devil take the hindmost."
COMMENT #29 [Permalink]
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gandhi
said on 7/12/2005 @ 11:07 pm PT...
WP #24:
Hard to tell whether I'm being misinterpreted or not ...
Not at all, WP, I am sure we are on the same page, mate. My comment wasn't meant to sound sarcastic, which perhaps it did.
people tend to be either faith-based or reality-based...
But even those who are vigorously faith-based still have to get out of bed every day and deal with the discomforting buffering of reality (which is what I was trying to say). And faith in Jesus does not have to equate to faith in Bush & Co - that's just the current fashion in US evangelism, but fashions can change...
There is a whole lot that can be said along these religious-versus-non lines. I gotta break away for an hour or two, but I will respond to any comments as soon as I can...
COMMENT #30 [Permalink]
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gandhi
said on 7/13/2005 @ 1:48 am PT...
Hey, when I talked about "getting out of bed every day and dealing with the discomforting buffering of reality" that wasn't a cue for y'all to go to sleep!
:-)
Anyway, it's been a pleasure guest-blogging today/tonight and if anyone has additional comments I will check back and respond as and when...
PS: Brad Blog rocks!
COMMENT #31 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 7/13/2005 @ 1:49 am PT...
I have to get running too, but thanks again for all your contributions here, Gandhi. This is a fabulous thread so far and I wouldn't be surprised to see more comments on it in the next day or two. Cheers, mate, and thanks again!
COMMENT #32 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 7/13/2005 @ 7:46 am PT...
Talk about getting back to reality. It just came over that Moyer, the judge in Ohio who helped Blackwell queer the election recount, has now disqualified every Democratic judge from hearing the corruption case involving Noe and his buddies. He says he wants to avoid all suspicion of partisanship.
Ha ha. This is analagous to Judge Sirica being disqualified in the Watergate case in favor of John Mitchell.
Good news...it's so blatant that the Toledo Blade should have a field day with it. Bad news...the Cleveland Plain-Dealer has apparently been compromised by threats of retaliation, and has pulled two stories of "major importance" out of fear of being sued, so they might lay low.
COMMENT #33 [Permalink]
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Richard McGinn
said on 7/13/2005 @ 8:46 am PT...
Gandhi and commenters,
I have enjoyed your blog, and the comments, immensely. Gandhi, I am amazed at the profoundity of your analysis of the neocon agenda. You have given us some extremely valuable insights. I do disagree, however, with the neocon's suggestion that they (neocons) are faith-based whereas liberals are reality-based. As a liberal, I have puzzled over the fact that, although I have political opinions, I have personally borne direct witness to practically nothing of what I believe. I often feel that "all is illusion" or, as Will Rogers put it, "Everything I know is what I read in the newspapers". It is chilling to realize this. The conclusion I draw is that, politically, everyone is faith-based to about the same degree; the difference comes down to (a) who or what you believe in, and (b) who you are rooting for. Reason serves as footman to these two purposes. If you believe in The Rapture and you rooted for George W. Bush, you feel good because your Bible confirms your belief and your team won the last election (or so the country seems to think). If you believe in Global Warming and Rep. John Conyers (my hero), you are equally passionate about quoting supporting evidence and trying to win the next election. Reality? Who has time to verify any of it? We mostly have to place our trust in others to verify, confirm, ferret out the facts, and so on. Our job, as voters, is to decide what part of "what we read in the newspapers" is credible. Democracy depends on collective intuitions getting "reality" right --- in the sense of restoring some balance --- in successive election cycles.
What is so important about your article is that it lays out some compelling new reasons to believe that this Republic is seriously threatened by the neocon agenda.
COMMENT #34 [Permalink]
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gandhi
said on 7/13/2005 @ 2:37 pm PT...
R McG #33:
The conclusion I draw is that, politically, everyone is faith-based to about the same degree; the difference comes down to (a) who or what you believe in, and (b) who you are rooting for. Reason serves as footman to these two purposes...
I hear what you are saying, but I think I sense a degree of frustration creeping in...?
Sure, our perspective on things influences how we see reality. But let's go back to the car-crash analogy in my original post - we all have differing subjective viewpoints of the same objective reality. What I'm saying is that we should agree that such an Objective Reality exists, and we should all work to pursue it as a common, binding basis of fact.
Given the FACTS, people can form their own opinions. At the moment they are not even getting the facts, or worse yet they are getting complete lies.
Our job, as voters, is to decide what part of "what we read in the newspapers" is credible...
I think we have to do more than that when confronted with BushWorld. We have to actively attack the lies and expose a version of Objective Reality that even the GOP hacks must agree on.
For example, look at how Josh Marshall is ripping the Rove-Plame lies to shreds, one after another. He did the same with the Social Security "crisis".
... this Republic is seriously threatened by the neocon agenda.
Damn straight it is!
NB: I am not trying to be argumentative here, just constructive!
COMMENT #35 [Permalink]
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gandhi
said on 7/13/2005 @ 3:31 pm PT...
RLM #32:
Sounds like a perfect example of what we are talking about...
If we respond by doing nothing and saying nothing, the Bush-GOP version of reality becomes the de-fact norm.
COMMENT #36 [Permalink]
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Richard McGinn
said on 7/14/2005 @ 5:15 am PT...
Response to Gandhi #34
I hear what you are saying, but I think I sense a degree of frustration creeping in...?
I may be showing frustration, but really, my focus is on the swing-voters. Why do they believe the Republican spin? Some very close friends are conservatives, and by that I mean when they think about politics (which is not often) they root for Bush and wince when his agenda is attacked because basically they want to believe that the world is a good place but it is marred by a few bad eggs (terrorists and liberals a la the subtitle of Hannity's "bestseller"--I wonder how many copies Rupert Murdoch bought?) who want to destroy it. They know Rush and Hannity tend to exaggerate, and oh yes maybe bend the truth a little bit--but so do the democrats. But my friends listen to Rush and Hannity for exactly the same reasons I read The Brad Blog--they are looking for arguments to support their "cause"-- which by the way seems to be winning, which affirms their belief in God and country and apple pie. It is very hard to dissuade them with arguments, for the reasons I gave in my first posting: they argue based on what they believe and who they are rooting for, and I do the same.
This idea was in response to your excellent "reality" blog. Let me now add: What our side needs right now is for their side to lose big in court. This is happening now with the Rove-Plame case; let's hope this one ends badly for the administration. Add the DS memos and the Ohio election fraud case. The lawless behavior of this administration must be held to account in the congress and in the courts. Only when things go badly for the Republicans "on the ground" will my good friends be impressed.
COMMENT #37 [Permalink]
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gandhi
said on 7/14/2005 @ 5:10 pm PT...
Rush and Hannity tend to exaggerate, and oh yes maybe bend the truth a little bit--but so do the democrats..
True. Unfortunately, most people these days are basically disgusted with politics and politicians, and so they expect little more than lies and self-interested games. The truth itself has become a political football. The Democrats are guilty of this too, of course.
I can't even TALK politics with most people I know - their eyes glaze over and they just switch off... Who's right, who's wrong - who's got time for it?
The neocons once speculated (in the PNAC docs) that it would take a massive tragedy like 9/11 to create enough public support for their ambitous Empire-building agenda. Perhaps a real shift in public attitudes towards politics will also require a massive scandal - like the collapse of the entire Bush administration, a lost war in Iraq and then ongoing revelations about how all this could have happened? Perhaps that would be enough for people to demand more from their elected representatives, and to take more than a passing interest in politics?
For me, this is part of a broader social issue, and Bush is very much a product of modern USA society. For example, it's commonly accepted today that "Business is Business" and people nowadays seem quite prepared do something immoral for personal gain, provided it is not actually illegal.Greed is good, etc... But that's probably another thread!?
Only when things go badly for the Republicans "on the ground" will my good friends be impressed.
Too true. A hit on Rove will have enormouse repercussions, particularly if it comes with the imprimatur of Bush's own Supreme Court reps. As Sidney Blumenthal says: "Rove may succeed momentarily in quelling the storm. But the stillness may be illusory. Before the prosecutor, Rove's arsenal is useless."
Public opinion sometimes seems to have a mysterious force of its own. Its like watching a school of fish change directions, or a herd of animals stampeding...
Bush is already below 50% popularity. Maybe the perfect wave is building...?
COMMENT #38 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 7/14/2005 @ 5:40 pm PT...
Yes, Gandhi: One can hope for the perfect wave ... but it had better be surgically perfect.
COMMENT #39 [Permalink]
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Richard McGinn
said on 7/15/2005 @ 5:01 am PT...
#37 and #38
"Before the prosecutor, Rove's arsenal is useless."
That says it all. Rove has met the Peter Principle. In court, unlike in the world of politics, he wll prove to be quite incompetent, like a basketball star forced to play hockey.
COMMENT #40 [Permalink]
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gandhi
said on 7/18/2005 @ 12:55 pm PT...
An interesting follow-up from the Sydney Morning Herald today, explaining to us foreigners why (for example) Cheney is still VP:
"A former senior official in the Clinton Pentagon, Kurt Campbell, cautions that many people inside the Administration do not perceive reality in the same way as most people on the outside.
"A lot of people who support the President are really not interested in the facts on the ground," Campbell says. "There really is a faith-based belief in the President as a person and in his ability to remake reality."
From the same paper:
"The US military-industrial complex can virtually tell Congress and the White House who to fight, where and with what. An American who had been in Canberra explained to me recently that the Pentagon and his company, Boeing, were jointly planning not only future weapons but the wars to use them in. He didn't seem to have any ideological issues, as we say these days, with that..."
COMMENT #41 [Permalink]
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gandhi
said on 7/18/2005 @ 1:17 pm PT...
... or this from Kos today, nicely capturing the duality of this absurd "reality"...
No Republican's action is worthy of scorn or censure. They are perfect. Flawless. Immune to error. Godlike.
How someone could be reduced to that level is beyond me...
COMMENT #42 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 7/18/2005 @ 5:51 pm PT...
It's beyond me, too, Gandhi. And I don't think I will ever be able to understand how mass murder for profit can be seen as "business as usual". But maybe I'm just exceptionally dense!