Repeating my thought from near the end of the Debate thread.

If tonight can be considered "even" --- which I think is a fair snap judgement, then Kerry ends the winner.

Folks have been frightened about Kerry (by a bunch of brilliant Bush spin). Seeing him as strong, and as strong as Bush, allows those frightened of Kerry to now go with him.

I believe they now will.

VOTE on who won the debate!

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I try to turn off the TV quick after the debates, because I don't trust CNN to get anything right. Tonight I was a little too slow on the draw, and this comment by Wolfie only proves my point:

"Bush is walking to his side of the room all smiles; Kerry is smiling too, on the outside at least."

BBC provides much better coverage.

MSNBC consensus leans towards "Bush won cuz he didn't lose".

I think they got it wrong. (see my comment above)

BLAM! The server got knocked out again! At another inopportune time!

Ugh...oh, well...Welcome back (hours later)

My position* is that, if we discount substance, it was almost a tie. i say almost because several times Bush came across as snippy. He cut off Gibson and so forth. That may play good to a base that confuses pigheadedness with a principles stance and this bullshit bravado with macho. For the rest of us it comes accross as snotty. i mean who couldnt wait for just a second to defend the honor of a punk like Berlusconi? Ok, he didn't have a complete and utter stutterfest. Points for Bush.

On issues of substance, however, Kerry will be seen to have won. Bush seems completely out of the ballpark on the Iraq issue. That question about mistakes was completely avoided. For one of the biggest issues of this election Bush seems completely out of touch. As importantly, on the issue of Supreme Court justices, Kerry painted Bush to be a liar. Even his timber company denial will work against Bush. The question, over the next day or so, of who won will turn over whether these statements are called to the attention of the public.

*granted the decision was made after a couple of Scarecrow Ales from the great Wychwood brewery in the UK and a little spotted cow from my friends to the north in new Glarus WI; www.wychwoodbrewery.com and www.newglarusbrewing.com