It is truly amazing that the Repugs blasted every Democrat in site as deserters, weak, chickens, etc. when people like Rep. Murtha stood up and said we need to immediately begin the with drawal of troops. Now, the Democrats have been proven right as the Repugs showed that they can listen and learn. They are now doing exactly what we suggested they do. Either the Democrats were correct or the Repugs are deserters, weak, chickens, etc (you choose).

And we did all of this so the Iraqi's have the type of government that the Bushistas said would not happen: a theocracy.

America is safer thanks to Bush's leadership on Iraq and disposing Saddam.

Why liberal asswipes can't see this is beyond me.

The new Iraq will be a better place and one day, every conservative who enjoys golfing in a dry, arid climate will be able to play 19 holes in Baghdad.

Paul & Ricky must surely be dancing in the streets rejoicing now!!!

ScottFromCA blathered:

"America is safer thanks to Bush's leadership on Iraq and disposing Saddam."

Yes, I was really concerned about Saddam! He was almost ready to get me until Bush stepped in and saved the day! Phew! He might have been able to...well, he could have...he was mean and said bad things about us! And...tried to kill Dubya's daddy and stuff! I wonder if the two American families that lost their children in Iraq yesterday on Christmas day are also thankful for Bush's leadership.

"Why liberal asswipes can't see this is beyond me."

Nice. Why cowardly fake "Conservative" fantasists (like ScottFromCA) can only cower behind "a rock" so the boogey-man won't get 'em, instead of going out and protecting themselves and/or their country by signing up for the fight they so much want others to die for is beyond me.

But when you're a chickenhawk, afraid that bad guys are come and getcha, and you want your Daddy Party (big government) to protect you, I suppose any amount of cowardice is possible.

Those silly neo-cons suffer from,

He
Adu
Pass
Disease

Poor Dudes

Oh! ...knocked the wind out of me. I had so much to say, but I'm just stuck here in front of my monitor, unblinking, shallow breaths, and realize I can't say anything about this that even rises to the level of incivility. Oh!

ABC-TV just hailed Iraqi voters as freedom fighters of the year, all the while not bothering to mention that those same voters have cast ballots to form a theocracy, much like neighboring Iran. There will be no drawdown of American troops and, I suspect, more soldiers will be required to deal with the winning Shiites, who will begin slaughtering the Sunnis. The whole situation is a nightmare and is about to explode into a civil war. That's what 2,200 lost GIs and $240 billion has bought so far.

The troops will be drawn out as soon as George Bush is forced to go on trial.

So make it sooner rather than later...clean out congress and begin impeachment hearings.

In the meantime, its time to get rid of Diebold/Sequoia...

John Gideon

Any update on what is happening concerning North Carolina & California? I have heard from David Allen Diebold's cronies are going to try to change the law. We need to head them off at the pass, and get them decertified & then take them to court.

Doug E.

When the guy the neo-cons think is a criminal is the same guy the war's opponents can't stand either, and that guy just won the election that was supposed to prove that Iraq was a democracy, it means only one thing, folks...TIME TO GET OUT.

DougE #8 -
The news is very slim, as you can see from DVN, today. I do monitor the NCVerifiedVoting mailing list and they are very active preparing to fight against the county's fight to get the state legislature into special session to change the election law to suit Diebold. ES&S will meet the letter of the law and Sequoia is, apparently, now stating that they want to participate and they will meet the letter of the law. This leaves Diebold looking might bad because they said that their CEO would not sign any affidavites and that no other company CEO would be able to do it.

DougE#8 - I forgot to mention California. Things are very quiet there but I have it from an insider that Diebold admitted in a meeting last week that they have 'interpreted' code in their source code. Interpreted code is not supposed to be used in any voting machine software accoreding to the 2002 FEC Voting System Standards. It is going to be interesting to see what will happen next. Will the ITA strip Diebold of their 2002 qualification or will they ignore the 'interpreted' code again?

Powerful PNAC video-clip, Quick & Catchy >spread this everywhere !

http://openyourmindseye..../2005/10/pnac-video.html

Hey ScottfromCA,

I have a great idea--why don't you go over to Iraq for some golf RIGHT NOW? I'm sure all of the "liberal asswipes" here would pitch in to send you, although you could go for free if you were not such a chickenhawk pussy.

Maybe you could grab Paul and Ricky and make it a trio while you are at it.

FORE!

I'm sure there will be fine golfing to be had in New Orleans too.

GWB --- "Damn, that was why we supported Saddam Hussein!"

Am I the only one who thought ScottfromCA was being sarcastic? I was with all of you right up to the part about 19 holes in Baghdad.

Does anyone know where I can get the "W Chip" that Blocks g w bush from TV and radio ?

Everytime ChuckleNuts shows up on TV, I Puke and now I need new carpets!

For Cambridgeknitter: I think he was serious, assuming "19 holes" isn't a misprint.

To a golfer, "19 holes" refers to a round of golf (18) plus a drink afterwards...the 19th hole being the clubhouse bar. It sounds to me as if he's just a guy with inherited money who hangs around his country club taking verbal potshots at liberals to gain approval, then projects his own lifestyle onto a war zone halfway around the world.

It doesn't shame guys like Scott in the least to allow brave kids from poor families to die in a foreign desert so that he can fly there later for a golfing vacation. Maybe he can get Jack Abramoff to pay for it.

Scott isn't that bright, obviously. Presumably he read somewhere that Baghdad was dry, and read somewhere else that it was arid, without realizing they mean the same thing.

Actually its worse than first reported. The Shiites aren't even going to allow some of the Sunnis who were elected take office.

An Iraqi court has ruled that some of the most prominent Sunni Muslims who were elected to parliament last week won't be allowed to serve because officials suspect that they were high-ranking members of Saddam Hussein's Baath Party.

Knight Ridder has obtained a copy of the court ruling, which has yet to be circulated to the public.

The ruling is likely to dampen Bush administration hopes that the election would bring more of the disaffected Sunni minority into Iraq's political process and undermine Sunni support for the insurgency. Instead, the decision is likely to stoke fears of widening sectarian divisions in a nation already in danger of descending into civil war.

Adil al-Lami, the chief electoral official of the Independent Electoral Commission of Iraq, told Knight Ridder that he would honor the court's decision and that none of the accused Sunnis would appear on the final list of parliament members.

Whoa.

Damn.

Ya know, Brad--if I wasn't so busy trying my damnedest to paint/write/draw/urinate/[whatever else comes to mind at the time] either "HAHAHAHA" or "First day with the new thumbs there, Georgie?" on every surface I come across (a matter of considerable difficulty at times, given the blurred, teary-eyed vision and debilitating side cramps from all the hysterical laughter and what-not...), I imagine I'd probably have time to assume/detect the slightest bit of cynicism lightly tinting the prose on this particular piece...and I would be exceedingly proud at such an assumption--I knew you had it in you! your surrender to the darkside is nearly complete, young Friedman--now all that's left is to teach you all the horribly offensive and/or (*delighted, muted chuckle*) sacreligious/blasphemous jokes that I know (BTW: I've almost perfected a method for converting anathema into a renewable fuel...but not for cars...no sir--incendiary/accelerant to get the pre-mortem funeral-pyres-for-the-stupid good-n-goin'...works like a charm), stand back, observe mildly disconnected-ish maniacal laughter, and the transformation will be complete...mwahahahaha!

((*PSST!* Hey Brad! Just let go, man. Don't fight it--you can have a hardened, cynical lump of pure, unadulterated, grade-A, 100% toxic cynicism in your chest instead of a heart and still not only care about real-world issues, but actually make a difference, as well--I think they call it "Levity"...))

There's no truth to the rumor that when Sunnis complained about fraud in the election, victorious Shiites called them "Macadamia nuts" and told them to "Get over it."

There's also no truth to the rumor that the leading Sunni candidate conceded before they started counting the votes, or that he and the Shiite leader had once been fellow members of the "Baath and Shower Society" at Baghdad University.

Interesting point Brad, that Iraqi voters utterly, as usual, reject US picked and supported candidates (link here).

Those US "Iraqi candidates" would do much better in an election here than in their own country.

If they joined the republican party, here, there would be plenty more defense money to funnel into their campaigns. The neoCons would be able to shout "historic election" with glee.

The neoCons would paint their Iraqi rejected candidates with the rhetorical political brush in colors that do not run well. Do not run well for Iraqi offices, anyway, that is.

The red states would love them and welcome them as heroes. Perhaps they could settle down in New Orleans and replace the bad liberal Americans that used to live there. No one knows where they are now, including as many as hundreds or thousands of children.

Who cares, these patriots need a home since their own people rejected them as being tainted by the people from "that part of the world".

Meanwhile, back in the US, we have an historic election coming up too. The one that throws the neoCons out of neoCongress.

The neoCongress is going to become just the Congress once again, and the neoCons are going to become neoConvicts in big numbers.

The body politic in the US has the same opinion of US neoCongressional candidates for the election coming up in several months that the Iraqi people have for the administration's favorite candidates in Iraq.

Yep trolls, your madness has caught up to you.

ScottFromCA continually proves how stupid rightwingers are, and how easily they are sheeple.

Since most Americans do not know the difference between Sunni and Shia Islamic concepts, and since the news contains daily Sunni v Shia based news reports, I thought I would research it a bit.

It happens that Islam is a lot like Christianity and Judaism in the sense that factions crop up over what outsiders would consider irrelevant. I found this statement:

"When the Prophet ... died in the early 7th Century he not only left the religion of Islam but also an Islamic State in the Arabian Peninsula with around one hundred thousand Muslim inhabitants. It was the question of who should succeed the Prophet ... and lead the fledgling Islamic state that created the divide.

Muslims who believe that Abu Bakr should be the Prophet's successor have come to be known as Sunni. Muslims who believe Ali should have been the Prophet's successor are now known as Shia. The use of the word successor should not be confused to mean that that those that followed the Prophet Muhammad ... were also prophets - both Shia and Sunni agree that Muhammad ... was the final prophet." (link here).

So the big deal is who was to be the Prophet's successor ... some thirteen centuries ago. This is something to shed blood over? How like churchianity mosqianity is. And lets not bring up the pharisee v sadducee battles of Judaism.

So now we are to believe that the bu$hit concept of "democracy" is going to change all this and out of the big womb of the momma admin gushes out holy peace and prosperity in the form of Iraq of America?

Hey ... I can not see how the neoCon shills can keep a straight face when they rant about this mega-fantasy.

I think the important point regarding the election remains that regardless of who won the seats, Muslim clerics and tribal loyalties will still control the popular will. In order to remain in office, those elected will have to conform their political decisions accordingly.

The neo-con premise, that an election need only to be held according to a democratic process to be successful, is now forfeit. Elected Sunnis are being denied their seats in Parliament because of (alleged) ties to former Baath party (secular) friends of Saddam. This proves that religious doctrine still governs the process.

The American equivalent of this would be if liberal Democrats were elected to Congress, but kept out because Dr. Dobson said they were Godless associates of Bill Clinton.

Meanwhile, if our friend Scott is practicing his golf swing out there in sunny California, waiting for his tee time at Baghdad Country Club, he might consider using body armor while practicing. Looks as if he's going to need it when he gets to play.

If the neo-cons can't have rigged elections over there,

They'll just keep stirring the pot waiting until the world is tired of watching the coming bloodbath (you know theres going to be one), with three separate states, border wars, etc, they'll have to install somebody eventually
And if the arms companies of the world would quit selling black market weapons to them and their surrounding neighbors, it might slow down after a while, but as we know, that won't happen, theres too much money in that shit, and it's going to break the US in the process, so we won't be able to finish the task anyway

Wheres Saddam when you need him?, (I had a lot of people pissed at me for saying leave him in there)
I said this right from the start, that he keeps the religious fanatics lying by their dish, so they can't stir up the shit, thats why he was so brutal to them, Hussein is one himself, he knows that fanatics have to be come down on hard, with death being their final reward and all, they'll have the mess like they're having for now and ?

As we all know Religion & Politics don't mix
Never has, never will

Thats the stuff of Revolutionary wars

OK, now you can cut me up

Plus, they have signed accords with Iran already.

The religious zeal that is contra our Bill of Rights ideology is what is in the main controlling the minds of Iraqi people.

The foundation of their culture is a theocracy, as it was when Islam formed in the 7th Century:

"When the Prophet ... died in the early 7th Century he not only left the religion of Islam but also an Islamic State in the Arabian Peninsula" (see link in my post #25).

Thus, the neoCon fantasy "democracy" is anathema to the culture. Their religion is an Islamic State, not a state where differing religions exist.

Perhaps the real neoCon democracy is in fact a theocracy where the lord speaks from the burning bush again.

The irony of the Iraq election is mind-boggling, truly. The outcome was hardly surprising, in that religion remained supreme over secularism. Nothing will change in Iraq. Elected officials will have to take marching orders from Muslim clerics.

But those in the United States most supportive of Bush's policy, and most willing to proclaim this election "historic," are American theocrats...in particular Protestant fundamentalists and Orthodox Jews/Zionists, and to a lesser extent devout Roman Catholics and Mormons. In other words, those Americans most willing to join church and state are the same who have been screaming for secular control in Iraq...and have ended up with is a government where the state follows the church's dictates.

As a wag once said, "You can't make this stuff up."

Dredd,
I wonder if Abu (Bakr) was a Relative of Jim (Baker)

maybe thats what the neo-cons are thinking, that they have a prophet in their midst

(just joking)

Wouldn't it be nice if the MSM really did some good journalistic pieces to educate all of us on the true ramifications of the Iraqi elections? You know, really do some journalism? That's gone, and it's not even expected by me anymore. The MSM doesn't educate any of us anymore. The MSM is purely infotainment and political propoganda, with no investigative journalism whose purpose is to truely educate us.

A look at where it's heading

"The Times, UK:

MARLUDDIN JALIL, a Sharia judge who has ordered the punishment of women for not wearing headscarves, was uncompromising: “The tsunami was because of the sins of the people of Aceh.”

Thundering into a microphone at a gathering of wives, he made clear where he felt the fault lay: “The Holy Koran says that if women are good, then a country is good.”

A Sharia police force modelled on Saudi moral enforcers enthusiastically seeks out female wrong doers for public humiliation."

Read the article in the right hand column.

People in this country have gotten soft and ignorant. Our rights and freedoms, unfortunately, also support "becoming stupid".. many have (too many).

Zealots were slated to win this thing almost a month ago, weren't they? They were already in talks with Iran, who was becoming MORE vocal and boystrous the past month or so..

It's funny.. Shrubby said he was going to "liberate Iraq" to help "the war on terrorism".. he helped it alright! Helped the kind of people that ENGAGE in the war to get put into power. The hard-core Islamists are the ones to be afraid of, must like the hard-core Christians (the ones that say it's ok to kill people if they are sinners, regardless of "man's law").

Let's just hope that the new leaders aren't completely nuts.. or we're in for a bigger shit-storm that even I've been thinking about. I'd not guessed they would use the courts to remove elected officials (not sure why I didn't see that coming, we used the courts to put in someone who wasn't duely elected). This could get very ugly very fast.

I wonder if all the "pro-war" folk will come out and take accolades when all out civil war hits the streets in Iraq.. or if they will just try to blame the negative thoughts of us "liberals" for the failing..

How come the MSM isn't pointing out that the election winners in Iraq are pro-Iran Shiites? And the MSM, Israel, and the Republicans are pimping a war with Iran? Iran = Iraq; therefore, didn't we implement a governmet in Iraq that = Iran???

Look at the picture in this blog, of Iraq's new leader. Does he look "pro-America"? He looks like he just got satellite TV & high-speed cable, right??? NOT!!!!!!!

Dear Soldiers,

We think you are wasteing your efforts and lives in Iraq. We do not believe in what you are doing and are going to encourage the ones who are trying to kill you that they are in the right and you are in the wrong thus giving them motivation to kill more of you.

Love ,

Liberals

P.S. While we hear good news about Iraq, we will never report any of it in an effort to stir American support as far away from you as possible.

P.S.S We voted for the funding of the war right before we voted against it.

Dear Soldiers,

We're sorry for the lies we told about WMDs.

We're sorry for the lies we told about Saddam being a threat.

We're sorry for breaking your 'contracts', and forcing you to fight when we said we wouldn't.

We're sorry we didn't properly equip, train or supply sufficient troops to keep you safe.

We're sorry our commanders are all Chickenhawks who are too ignorant to make the right decisions.

We're sorry your commander in chief is a liar, a coward and inept.

We're sorry we had you fight a war that all of the 'experts' said was a bad idea, but that we recklessly and blindly ignored as the fools we are.

We're sorry that we can't own up for the fiasco, failures and insanity we've created, and instead always try to blame liberals for our continued and copious failures.

We're sorry we stole the 2000 and 2004 elections, thereby robbing of you of solid leadership.

We're sorry we keep cutting your veterans benefits, when you need them the most.

We're sorry that we're all such selfish, greedy and psychotic little buggers that worry more about our own petty interests, instead if being concerned at yours.

We're sorry that we're such hateful people, because it is you who suffer for our hatefulness.

Love,

Conservatives

P.S. If you live in hell in iraq, don't believe it, it's all a lie from the media!

P.P.S Remember that the hell you live in, is the fault of a liberal, just ask your buddy Limbaugh!

Brad (#4), I think I detect a tongue-in-cheek in SCOTTFROMCA (#2)'s post.

Appears to be an intent to bait. Never met anyone that stupid who could spell, too.

Anyway, it's my humble opinion that he got far more of a reaction than he deserved for that hysterical post.

Thanks Ryan, didn't have the time this morning to put together a similar reply to MR.

BIG DAY FOR YOU BLOGGERS! Apparently, juancole.com is so swamped that it times out. The MSM should hang their heads in shame; you guys are outscooping them all over the place.

Medium Wrong has no credibility, because he's a chickenhawk.

What BlueBear2 #38 said Ryan.

Ryan,

Don't be sorry for your short-comings join the Army or National and Help. I just returned from Iraq and the folks will make it. It want be just like America, (well a little like LA or Detroit only just a little safer) it will be what they want. But you know what they all now have cell phones, pepsi, MTV, schools, water, hospitals, and jobs. In order to get things and keep them they will work and plan and hope. No time to think about coming here and killing us.

HCOCDR,

Why would I want to join the military, I get crapped on enough from this administration right here at home...

As for it 'wanting to be like america', you're sniffing glue. Iraq wants to be like Iran, and the pollyanna schmucks like you have made it possible. Iran has all of the things you mention to, not to mention mullahs that go around arresting people 'dating', and torturing the press.

My question is why you didn't ask the conservative chickenhawk to sign up, after all - he appears to have drunk the coolaid just like you have. Now why did you 'just return' from Iraq, was that part of the 'conservative bloggers' tour, or were you just making that little part up to improve the 'credibility' that's so devoid among conservatives. I'm sure it's the second case. We all know that republicans in general have no credibility, as you've made clear that 'lies' and 'propaganda' are OKIEDOKIE, as long as they toe the party line. And why should anyone believe what you have to say, when the majority of Iraqis disagree with you in recent polling? Maybe your 'handlers' in iraq never let you actually talk to the people who would tell you 'the truth'...

You are aware that Iraq had most of the things you listed before invasion, and that we had to rebuild them only because we blew them up - right? Probably not, you don't seem very well informed.

As for them 'coming here' and killing us, that's what the Saudis did, not the Iraqis. I see you're as ignorant of history, as you are of the conditions in Iraq. You must be another ignorant chickenhawk who just gives 'lipservice' to the troops. Obviously you never read my posting, otherwise you wouldn't have posted such an idiotic, ignorant and nonsense posting...

HCOCDR,

As for your 'idiot' statements about safer than LA or Detroit, I don't seem to recall 2000 cops being murdered and 10s of thousands injured in either of those cities in the last couple of years. You really should get a more 'accurate' news source, the one who's spewing the lies you repeat is embarrasingly stupid - just like you.

Hmmm

I see!!!

If the guy the Americans supported got elected that would be bashed as a "Bush Puppet Government" since he lost it is actually a theocracy not acceptable to the left ass idiots. Perhaps you guys want to pick the leader yourself. Why have an election anyway. Screw majority rule lets all just bitch about everything all the time.

Democracy what is that? If you do not like the outcome of the election in Iraq or the USA why not move to China and VOTE there.

Sadam won by 99.9% of the vote the dissenters were beheaded. Now that is real democracy ain't it.

Is bringing MTV and Pepsi to Iraq the new metric for success?

Glue sniffing is your job. I can tell you that villages that did not have water when we arrived in Iraq had it when we left. The people were thankful.
Had the left supported the President from the start we could have been out of there sooner. The lives of the peopel and troop in Iraq is on your hands.

We were on the border with Iran and I can tell you that the people in Iran don't even want to be like Iran. They will not be able to roll back the progress the folks in Iran have achieved and the government will be overthrown soon and it will come from within. The Shiet leaders were kicked our of Iran and into Iraq because they wanted the seperation of church and state.

Read the entire artical of your juan cole. I am sure he has to rely on the reports of the media in Iraq that never leaves the green zone unless a bomb goes off. Then they put a mike in front of a sunnie and ask were things better under Saddam? It's like asking a Southern Plantation Slave owner after the Civil War if things were better under Abe Lincoln or Jeb Davis.

http://detroit.areaconnect.com/crime1.htm

Detroit MI Crime Statistics (2004 Crime Data) Crime Type 2004
Overall Detroit Crime Index 73328

Detroit Violent Crimes 15913
Detroit Murders 385
Detroit Rapes 719
Detroit Robberies 5451
Detroit Aggravated Assaults 9358

Detroit Property Crimes 57415
Detroit Burglaries 12202
Detroit Larceny/Thefts 20640
Detroit Motor Vehicle Thefts 24573
Detroit Arsons 11734

LA Crimes -2004
http://www.lapdonline.or...s/2004_crime_summary.htm

Homicide
647
Rape
1162
Robbery
16484
Agg. Assaults-Excl. Child/Spousal Abuse *
18940
Child/Spousal Abuse
12786
Total Violent Crimes
51337

Lets see Americans being killed in 2004, thats detroit 385 and LA 647 thats 1032 times 2 years, well we have been there almost 3, but it shows we are much safer in Iraq. But I must be wrong and stupid because libs like you argue with emotion and would never let facts get in the way of a good blog.

That was just 2 US cities.

And you call me and the President stupid. No wonder you are losers.

But don't believe those links to those facts because you can see them on the internet.

per #26
The American equivalent of this would be if liberal Democrats were elected to Congress, but kept out because Dr. Dobson said they were Godless associates of Bill Clinton.

That is about the best analogy I've ever read. And funny too. You guys are bloody brilliant!

Scott,

I got to play 18 in Kuwait and had dinner at a Chilis Restrant, right next to Applebees and KFC. ( they got a Hard Rock too) Downtown Kuwait City. Amazing what 15 years in a free Arab Country can turn out to be. The frutes of our labor in the first gulf war. The nay-sayers said it would never happen there and were wrong, just like they are wrong about Iraq.

had dinner at a Chilis Restrant, right next to Applebees and KFC.

Good to hear we're liberating the diahrrea from so many colons.

All of that American stuff was in Kuwait long before the first gulf war. I have a very good friend from Kuwait. She grew up with all the same stuff I had as a kid here in the good ol' USA. I was in Kuwait on a visit when working in Dubai for a summer in college. Iraq also. The idea that we are bringing this stuff to them is bs. They have had it all along. Sorry.

BVAC bush doesn't use the metric system ...he only use digital ,you know 1,2,3,4,5,... he's buggered once he uses all his digits tho

Thank the lords folks!!!

I finally figured out where that little boy HCOCDR comes from and why he is so unbelievably deranged!!!!

Its hard to believe it, but "fake conservatives" are being paid as EMBEDDED AGENTS IN IRAQ TO PRINT OUT BULLSHIT FOR THE ADMINISTRATION!!!!!!
Secret REVEALED!!!!!!!!!!!!
Patriotic Americans found

And guess who they are???? Nearly all of them are white, pasty college kids without a job!!!!! WHO'VE NEVER HAD TO BATTLE A DAY IN IRAQ AT ALL, NOR EVER EVEN BEEN BRUISED!!!!!

Take a gander at these beauties!!!
Conservatives shill for the BushCo Crime wave!!!!

"Look mommy, its HCO-CDR in living color!!!"
HCO!
Boy, I wonder if they even get out in the Sunlight Robert. It sure seems like a foregone conclusion...

Doug E.

Doug E -

Just by the style of writing and the idiot things they say, you just KNEW this was the case, right? I am loving it. I think I'm going to print that picture out and give it to a few of my own students who are great candidates for actually doing that job.

Thanks for this. How goddamned sad and evil can this administration get?

Poor Ho Commander - he can't even keep Iran and Iraq straight - and who the hell was Jeb Davis???

Yeah, it is clear that they have gone down to class four.

The reasoning and the spelling gives it away. Sixth grade education, a mercenary's bribe, and all of a sudden you have instant HDOCDR.

Or ... is it a photo of the Pentagon preparing Diebold's programmer facility for eVoting machine hacking in '06?

I am so glad this has finally become known. I commented a month or so ago that perhaps the trolls showed up everyday and got their 'assignment' on which sites to invade. I thought they were in the U. S., this is enlightening, the fact they are in Iraq. Maybe... who knows... in Wonderland, anything is possible. M4 aka:Alice N. Wunderland (who notices many times the trolls are the first to post on a thread critical of bushco)

Isn't that Brian Williams the 5th down on the right?

Don't forget to show them all who gets promoted!!!!

Unbelievable!!!! They don't need soldiers anymore, all they need is propagandaists who need money and are desperate for it!

Doug E.

hcocdr #48

An example of FUN WITH STATISTICS!

Murders in LA and Detriot for 2004 = 1032
Population LA 2004 census = 3,845,541
Population Detroit 2004 census = 900,198

1032/(3,845,541+900,198) = .000217 = .0217% chance of being killed

US servicemen killed in action 2,172 Link

US servicemen rotated through Iraq as of Nov. 2004 = 300,000 (I've used the upper end of the estimate) Link

2,172/300,000 = .00724 = .724 % chance of being killed

Gee wiz buddy - it looks likes your chances of being killed in Iraq are about 33 times better than in LA or Detroit. (.724/.0217 = 33.364)

If I took the time to research the last 6 months I am confident the odds would get even worse.

Following on from Dredd's last post #at 80 in the Ritter V Hitchens thread

...DREDD
Your notions of what the USA is, sounds more like a country that dropped from heaven rather than one formed from a revolutionary struggle against British rule.

That new country formed by the activities of the revolutionaries like the slave owner Jefferson, would be almost unrecognizable to you and totally unacceptable.

It required the huge undertaking of the Civil War to drag many more people to the realization that ‘We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal.’

This was not the end of citizens having to be forced by governments because the reality was still bestial conduct, requiring ongoing struggle and culminating in the mass movement of the 1960’s. Whole sections of the country were forced to change by the federal government.

The United States were anything but united and many paid with their lives, not least the likes of Malcolm X, Martin Luther King and all the thousands of others.

At all stages, the USA was supposed to be a democracy while people were being shot through the head trying to make it a reality.

Iraq will go through the same process but it will thankfully be far quicker. We should not doubt that, when we have been witness to such massive changes.

Actually this is what has been happening since humans came down from the trees.

What was forced on the Confederacy after an invasion and occupation does qualify as democracy, and so does what just happened in Iraq, where over 90% of the people have been liberated and have voted themselves for a constitution that is democratic; both of us would come up with a better constitution no doubt (but by the same token we wouldn’t tolerate a slave owner like Jefferson either).

As for the elections;

You say ‘the elections purged out US favored politicians, and elected religious connected types instead. Some of those have been an important part of the insurgency all along. So, the experiment to force neoCon democracy…has not even worked. … voting we demand is open, honest, verifiable, and fair. But we do not allow that to extend to our most valuable rights, because they are inviolate, inalienable, and above voting.’

My proposition is that the 1st war has ended if the election in Iraq was free and fair and that a new war has now formally started that is (in essence) Iraqi controlled and they are entitled to the same support that the US was (fully deserving of) as of the 9/11 attack.

If the entire Arab Sunni population about 19%, were the problem, (and they most certainly are not), then the 81% of the population would still deserve the support of the international community. All humanity is created equal.

Fear of Shia theocratic rule is a non event because of the power of the Kurds.

Was the Election Free and Fair I got the following report from here,

http://www.ieciraq.org/English/Home.htm

Baghdad, 24/12/2005

"This election has been one of the most observed in the whole world", says Mr. Adil Al-Lami, the Chief Electoral Officer of the IECI. He adds that observer groups deployed 120,000 committed and well trained observers in all 18 governorates, all polling centers across Iraq.

230.000 political entity agents also monitored the election. In average 55 observers or political entity agents were present at each polling center. This incredible level of monitoring helps to ensure the integrity, transparency and credibility of the election.
The observers and agents could observe all the phases of the electoral process, including polling, counting and tallying of the votes. The observer groups used sound and well tested methodologies to monitor the election and this enabled them to present reliable findings.

"The observer reports have been by and large very positive regarding the electoral process", says Mr. Al-Lami. The incidents and issues acknowledged in the reports can be considered marginal.

The observer groups reported that the electoral staff capitalized on the accumulative experience from January and October, and that the voting went smoothly in general. The incidents have been reduced in magnitude.

EIN, the largest Iraqi observer group encompassing over 14.000 observers in all governorates, issued on Wednesday its reports on special voting and the election-day.

The International Mission for Iraqi Elections (IMIE), an international electoral observation group that also issued reports in January and October, released earlier this week a partial report. It contains valuable recommendations, and it praises the electoral process in general.

While some problems have been pointed out in the observer reports, such as people not being able to find their names on the voter lists, campaign violations and a shortage of electoral material, these problems did not reach an alarming magnitude.
The observers also attested that the secrecy of vote, the check of IDs and the inking procedures have been consistently followed, preventing multiple or group voting.

Mr. Adil Al-Lami encourages the political contestants and the media to look at the findings of the observer reports. These organizations are independent from the IECI, and they provide documented facts and findings on the electoral process.

This is good stuff. Whatever the protests are about, they are not going to substantially change the result of the election.

A government of national consensuses will be formed after some weeks, or months of negotiations and the current hysterics about Iraq just becoming a theocracy of the Iranian type will be shown as just uninformed reaction.

The situation is very much one of ‘steady as she goes’ across most of the country, with the Kurdish peoples’ leading by example, as they continue to develop their security through maintaining the peshmerga, thus maintaining all their political freedoms while they continue the process of modernizing their culture.

Nobody will be imposing anything on the Kurds, and they would be protected by the international community if anyone tried to. They are the rock of the bourgeois democratic revolution in Iraq.

But IMV Baghdad ultimately decides the issue of democracy in Iraq. By that I mean that it is like New York in the US during the civil war. In the immortal words of Rhett Butler ‘there is not a cannon factory in the whole South, all we have is cotton, slaves and arrogance’.

The industrial power of the North was always going to dominate once things got rolling.

The big cities dominate around the world. London dominates England despite the cultural upsurge from Liverpool in the sixties. Have a look at a map of the world; size really does matter.

So, if the religious goons oppress people (which they tend to do) where they live, then the people being oppressed will eventually run-away to Baghdad; or if they have to they will run-away to as far as Arbil where the goons won’t be allowed to follow. The big city will generate the cultural norms for the whole country (eventually). But it may be that Arbil acts like Yenan did in China for some years of this struggle.

However the ongoing struggle for democracy unfolds it will be protracted and multifaceted. It will take a decade or more before the full impact of the liberated youth in particular starts to flower. But the flowers will be across the entire Middle East not just Iraq. It is all coming into play, and people should ‘cast away illusions and prepare for struggle’.

I have seen this type of ‘brinkmanship’ politics played to the wire (and beyond) before. It is quite common in countries newly emerging from wars. When the issue, only a few short months ago was the creation of a democratic constitution for Iraq, every twist and turn was pounced on by opponents of the liberation to pronounce failure.

Yet if you read that document now it is clear why so many political parties could and would be prepared to stand for election. It is clear that a formal bourgeois democracy in Iraq now exists.

That formality will have to be made real through a struggle like that to free Jefferson’s slaves.

PatrickM

For those who haven’t followed my reasoning on this election and are interested in thinking this through I posted in the Ritter V Hitchens thread at #7, and then tried to defend those thoughts at #10, #13, #18, #26, #50, #53, #73, #74, #77 (and I apologize for the unreadable way post 73 turned out).

It would have been lot easier if gwb Inc. just installed

a dictator. I. E. Ron Jeremy, looks the part.

Patrick M. equates Iraq's path to democracy (sic) with the American Revolution and Civil War. If he were trying to find two less suitable examples to defend our Iraq invasion, I doubt if he could have succeeded.

The American experiment in democracy was a REBELLION AGAINST ENGLAND. England wasn't seeking to spread democracy throughout the colonies, as we claim to be doing for Iraq, it was trying to prevent its spread. They claimed the territory as their own, and issued land grants "from the crown." They put John Peter Zenger on trial for printing truths in the paper about "their man in New York," Governor Cosby.

Not all colonials agreed with the revolution, because many of them were wealthy from their land grants and as merchants, but there was never any question that the protest was against England. There was never a civil war among colonials, as there is among Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds in Iraq.

The other enormous difference between Iraq and the American Revolution is that religious leaders control the belief systems of Iraqi citizens, while colonials were dead set against being told what to believe. Puritanism had led to the Salem Witch Trials, remember. The American Revolution was predicated, among other things, on PREVENTING A THEOCRACY. As the recent vote in Iraq proves, Iraqis have no such desire.

Patrick M. offers up our War Between the States, which followed the American Revolution by "four score and seven years...", as evidence that we should be patient with Iraq's experiment in democracy (sic). Again, the comparison is baseless.
Our Civil War resulted from the ongoing tension in an expanding nation over whether NEW states should be slave, free, or subject to "popular sovereignty" (what the local citizens wanted). As new states joined the Union (e.g. Missouri, Maine, California) their admission was allowed as part of
compromises (1820, 1850). But when the questions finally couldn't be resolved by compromise ("Bleeding Kansas"), fighting began between transient Missourians seeking to extend slavery to a new state (because the Missouri Compromise of 1820 allowed slavery there, albeit not elsewhere about its own southern border), while Kansas homesteaders wanted no part of slavery.

The conditions that led to the War Between the States have no parallel in Iraq whatsoever. Iraq's territory isn't expanding. The differences between Kurds, Shiites, and Sunnis are based on religion (and in the Kurds' case, security vis a vis Turkey), not on slavery or even on personal freedoms. There is no groundswell of support for Western-style democracy in Iraq, there never has been, and there probably never will be. It is a figment of the neo-cons' fertile imaginations.

HCOCDR: Why are you still over there? Bush said "Mission Accomplished" a couple years ago, you idiot!

I said it before, I'll say it again. I don't give a shit about Iraq, I care about voting in America. Spout all the statistics you want, I don't care if they're true or not! And the troops aren't fighting for my freedom in Iraq. Then don't! I was free before, during, and I'll be free after the Iraq War.

And what about WMD's, HCOCDR??? No comment, right?

RLM #64

Excellent. I am continually amazed at how little people understand about the people who founded this country and why they did it. And above all - how important that "goddamned piece of paper" is.

...big dan said on 12/29/2005 @ 5:32am PT...

HCOCDR: Why are you still over there? Bush said "Mission Accomplished" a couple years ago, you idiot!

Hay big,

I am back home now better for having spent 1 year of my life helping the folks in Iraq to understand freedom. My mission was accomplished. Just like the aircraft carrier that placed the sign on their ship when they had completed a 9 month rotation in the Gulf. Most ships only stay out for 6 months. I feel they accomplished their mission very well. Wouldn't you say they did a great job. The ship was then reoutfitted for a new command and a new crew with another mission. You guys are lead around by the nose by the media and jump on anything they say. That banner had been used for over 2 years by that ship and was displayed each time it returned to port. Long before bush landed on it. Good reporters would have found that out. once again outwhitted by the one you call an "idiot"

# 54 Doug E.

Great pic. I took that same class in Iraq. I am sorry to burst your little bubble but if you will notice the paper on everyones desk is a syllabus for the course they are taking, not the super secret Bill O'Riley talking points you claim them to be. ""Drats foiled again."""" by hcocdr

HAH!!!!

Like you expect anyone to really believe you HCOCDR, after all there is no syllabus class for brainwashed neocon dummies, there's only a crash course in lying without getting caught.

Doug

That banner had been used for over 2 years by that ship and was displayed each time it returned to port. Long before bush landed on it. Good reporters would have found that out.

Why don't you be a good little soldier reporter and provide a source on that?

""It truly did signify a mission accomplished for the crew," Navy Cmdr. Conrad Chun said, adding the president's visit marked the end of the ship's 10-month international deployment."

sorry to break in here with this off topic thing, but I wanted to put this up for anyone who would enjoy a new year chuckle. The ten funniest political videos of the year:

http://politicalhumor.ab...os/a/funnyvideos2005.htm