Well this is it boys and girls, this is the war on voting rights.

All democrats need to stand FIRM and denounce this clearly cynical bullshit!!!!!!!

We will march in a new voting rights act. IF any ID requirements need to be instituted, they should only be in select cities where FRAUD is prevalent.

These cronies want to impose it everywhere.....NATIONWIDE. That way, once verified paper ballots are in place they can game the system by disenfranchising people......FROM EVEN VOTING!!!!

This is the biggest crap to come.....This is SENSELESSBRENNER'S final con-job, I'm telling you Conyers.....

These sons of bitches will do anything to disenfranchise voters. ANYTHING......We must get ready, the CIVIL RIGHTS WAR never ended......

JIM CROW style voting is back......and now you have to prove you live where you live, you are who you are, give them (GOP) all your personal information......

You see the SCAM?!??? ACCENTURE is going to take over all the drivers lisence databases and PURGE YOU FROM THE ROLLS!!!!!!!

THE BASTARDS HAVE GONE TOO FAR THIS TIME CONYERS, WE NEED TO FILE A RICO LAWSUIT!!!!!

No more fraud.....no more machines, sure....but we don't want their NEW plan to stand which makes the vote hacking irrelevant....

Doug Eldritch

Hey all, in case you're wondering where the tag line "6 or 7 of us" comes from, click below on the "goes ballistic" link.

BTW, as far as I can tell from a recent web search, Dr. Robert Pastor's email address is still rpastor@american.edu. Page with Pastor email Email: rpastor@american.edu Phone: (202) 885-2728

Executive Director of National Election Reform Commission Goes Ballistic at BRAD BLOG! (Bradblog article from 4/2005)

snippets from BB article----

Earlier this evening, we received a phone call from Dr. Robert A. Pastor, the Executive Director of the Baker/Carter National Election Reform Commission. It was an interesting conversation.

RP: The commission is done, we're not making any changes to it. It's closed...What you are doing is harassment...Stop the harassment, sending us the same Email over and over again.

BB: We're not doing any such thing...Those are individuals sending you email...

RP: It is not individuals! We've received thousands of Emails and they were sent from only about 6 or 7 people only!

BB: Wait, wait, wait...What are you talking about?!...Do you have one single iota of evidence to make that claim that the thousands of emails you're receiving are in fact from "6 or 7 people"? ...(more from Brad..)

RP: Well, they are not going to be listened to.

----more at link to BB article----

Here's a fun little fact for the national ID crowd: While they are worrying about state driver's licenses, the National Passport Center is subcontracting their work out to AT&T. Yes, the phone company. A friend of mine got a job processing passports there, and I was shocked. "But you smoke like a rastafarian," I said. "How'd you ever pass the government piss test? The FBI background check?" Apparently subcontractors for this are not subject to the rigors of government employment. I don't care so much about my pot-smoking friend working there, but couldn't terrorists exploit this hole in the system to aquire fraudulent passports? Just asking.

This is actually GREAT news.

Let me explain.

You see, the psychos in charge are not going to let this one go. They cannot and do not ever let their terrible ideas go. Quite the contrary. So they will seize on this report and try to introduce ONLY one portion of it--the national voter ID card (forget the stuff about paper ballots)--as legislation.

The net result is that this will finally unify the Dems and force them to confront the election fraud issue head-on. They HAVE to. Once a few Dems start talking on this issue, one mother of a shitstorm will be let loose. The political damage to the Neocons will be worse than Katrina.

And that will be the end of the neocons.

So I say, hey, fascists--bring it.

By the way, here in LA, our fantastic new mayor Villaraigosa, his first day in office, KICKED OUT all the lobbyists. Villaraigosa for Prez in '08!

#4 Jim-

Ah, such an optimist you are. I would truly like to believe that you are correct, but the neocons have wide and deep and freedom-choking roots that they have put in place under the radar, for many many years.

And, the more I look, the more alarmed I am. I may be doing you an injustice by way of my faulty memory, but as I recall, you take as a given the part of the official 9-11 story about the identity of the Arab hijackers. But, once you/ one starts to look more deeply, the neocon fingerprints are all over that one. I'm saying that just to give you something to think about, not to subvert this thread. If you want to discuss 911 further via email with me, talk to Brad, and he can set us up. My permission, Brad. VG

Jim Circle: I WISH they would do that and end the neocons.....

The reality is though only WE can end the neocons!!!!!!!!!

And the neocons are INSANE, they are not loyal to the USA my god people....They're loyal to Turkey/Israel/Ukraine/Dubai and Pakistan!!!!

They care nothing for americans or hell anyone other than.....them. And they have created fanatical followers in washington like Dennis Hastert or Dana Rohrbracker, who for some money will basically be their dogs and kiss their ass.

WE CAN'T EVEN THINK ABOUT LETTING THIS THROUGH.....

The neocons are so insane they'd rather not get to 2006......they'd rather well, blow up say Turkey's greatest enemy. Iran. And then blow up Russia and then well....get the picture?

We can't afford any wiggle room.....we have to be FULL opposition now and hammer away at the fascists until they are completely exposed!!!!!

Help in exposing this by writing letters all over congress.org.....

Let every member of the IR Congress know they are being watched and that every neocon supporter, is going to lose their JOB. Let them have it. Tell them that those bastards who VOTED DOWN H-RES375 after bi-partisan support are traitors to america.

And we all know WHY they are traitors....covering up for the criminals all over Turkey and elsewhere. These congress members are TRAITORS and we must pull the rug out completely!!!!!!

Doug E.

Hey, VG, you can e- me anytime! Actually, you are mistaken. What I said was ERNEST PARTRIDGE, whose opinion I respect, had quibbles with the 9-11 conspiracy theories. I simply excerpted his article and was playing devil's advocate. Partridge is a frequent contributor to Democratic Underground and wrote several scathing tell-all article(s) about the stolen elections.

Me personally? I think 9-11 was rigged. I think 9-11 was rigged by Cheney and the Pentagon elite and massively covered up. Giuliani may have been in on it. At very least, the administration looked the other way deliberately and let it happen.

Now back on topic!

I hope that all of you have seen Brad's previous articles:

EXCLUSIVE! * A DIEBOLD INSIDER SPEAKS!

A Quick-ish DIEB-THROAT Follow-up

I encourage all of you to support our very own BB concierge and all round good guy WP by visiting his Whispering Campaign, and printing out and freely distributing and leaving about his one-pager (designed for short attention span readers at Starbuck's and the Laundromat), which is a short version of Brad's article:

Alarming Security Flaws In Diebold Voting Systems

Man, this is totally bogus!!! How are we supposed to double vote, have our dead vote and stuff the ballot box if we have to show ID's???

Seems like Jimmy Carter has to be "in" on it, to be able to participate at such a high level in this sham. It's the simplest explanation. We know the GOP is approaching 100% corruption. There must be a lot of Dem corruption too, for things to get as FUBAR as they are. How else would we be fighting a war based on lies, where a majority of people, and all of the politicians, know it was based on lies, yet almost no elected officials represent the 100% who were lied to, nor the 50+% who KNOW they were lied to.

This is yet another "WTF!" moment.

Brad,

Why is having voter ID's such a bad thing to prevent fraud? It's pretty sad that liberals are attempting to go after Diebold (and if they are guilty, they should be prosecuted) but have no problem with rampant liberal fraud. Illegal aliens, convited felons that haven't had their voting rights returned, dead people voting, voting in New York and then again by absentee ballot in Florida, ballot stuffing all fraud that heavily favors liberals. Why is it that Mexico which has less resources and poorer people can have a better voter ID sytem than we do???

http://www.vdare.com/awa...l/voter_registration.htm

Why Is Mexico’s Voter Registration System Better Than Ours?

Mexico has a better voter registration system than the United States.

That may come as a shock to those who believe nothing in Mexico could be superior. Nevertheless, it is true.

My wife is a Mexican citizen. I’ve accompanied her when she votes. (Being a non-citizen here, I don’t, of course, vote.) Every registered Mexican voter has a Voter ID card, complete with photograph, fingerprint, and a holographic image to prevent counterfeiting.

At the Mexican polling station, there is a book containing the photograph of every voter in the precinct. This book is available to the poll workers and observers from various parties. If there’s a doubt as to someone’s identity, the poll workers can simply look up the person’s name and see if the photo matches up.

The Mexican voter’s thumb is smudged with ink. That way, if he shows up at another polling site to vote, they know he’s already voted elsewhere. (The ink wears off after a few days.)

The problem is the focus on voter fraud which there are a few cases of each election instead of the focus on election fraud. Many many people were disenfranchised last election by lack of voting machines when they were available thousands in 2000 had their voting rights removed because of a shoddy "criminal list" which matched up first or last names of criminals in Florida and Texas but were so loosely based that many innocent people were denied their right to vote only to have it restored in 2002.

Nuclearchemist:

So, you think it's OK, if tens of millions of legitimate voters don't get these photo-id's and can't vote? You don't think that's disenfranchising these people, when a privately funded commission proposes to make voting harder for legitimate voters?

You have no credibility, because you are for a privately funded commission packed with GOP operatives, proposing an arbitrary nonsensical rule to take away the rights of voters who previously voted.

Why aren't you for same day signup, so more people can vote?

Here's what it boils down to:

PEOPLE WHO ARE FOR MAKING VOTING HARDER, RATHER THAN EASIER, ARE TRYING TO DISENFRANCHISE VOTERS.

I can't say it any simpler than that. Can you understand that? Can you understand that we should be making it EASIER for people to vote, than HARDER? And that those who are trying to make it HARDER are corrupt? Double-DUH!!!!!!!

Who is being disenfrahchised by making voting harder? Answer that question yourself!

Anyone who is trying to make voting harder is a crook. Simple rule.

And add Howard Dean to my list of honest politicians. I think the ridiculous coverage by the MSM on his "scream" speech was an attempt to make sure he didn't win the Democratic primary. I loved that rousing, passionate speech!

Why do you need same day signup? So you can bus poor people in and pay them the $20 each to vote for your candidate? Voting is a right that should be taken seriously. Voting cards should be free and with public transportation, anyone in liberal strongholds should be able to get to a registration place. The major reason you guys are against this is you can't do a last minute roundup of people that had no previous interest in the election and had no intention of voting.

You speak of disenfranchised people. How about the 4,755 dead voters in New Jersey that voted in the 2004 election LINK
They were disenfranchising/canceling someone's votes too.

The United States has one of the WORST voter verification methods of the democratic countries and you liberals want to continue with this method???

There certainly does need to be a better way to identify the people that are voting. I remember one time it was found out that dead people had voted. The answer was "well we knew how they were going to vote if they had been alive."

Here's what's happening in just one state re Voter ID Law:

Voter ID legislation endangers voting rights

[snip] It's interesting that state Sen. Bill Stephens, R-Canton, in articulating his reasons for supporting photo identification at the polls (Column, "Voter ID requirements will help eliminate fraud," Aug. 14) neglected to mention valid identification requirements for absentee ballots, where most of the instances of voter fraud emanate. If fraud truly is the issue, then why is there not a requirement that those who vote absentee ballots include a copy of their valid Georgia identification?

...Georgia has 159 counties, but currently there are not more than 50 locations in the state which offer official state ID. This creates a problem of accessibility for senior citizens and many of the state's poor who depend on public transportation. In many counties in south Georgia, there are no locations where Georgia photo IDs are issued. There is no provision in the legislation to open more locations accessible to each community. Instead, many which previously were open recently have been closed, including one in downtown Atlanta. If supporters of the voter ID law want improved access to free state-issued ID cards, there is a better way than depending on one rickety bus - as the state now plans - which still might not reach a majority of citizens. Why not open more permanent locations for Georgia ID throughout the state?

... Authors of the voter ID law could not give one specific instance of voter fraud at the polls in the state when asked while presenting the bill. It is well known that most voter fraud emanates from absentee ballots, but the legislature expanded the provisions regarding those.

... A valid employee photo ID is not acceptable. If photo identification is the issue, why wouldn't a person's official work ID not be acceptable?

... There was nothing lax about the previous Georgia election law, approved by the Justice Department. This new selective and exclusive voter ID law is a partisan attempt to restrict the voting process. If the Senate majority leader and other legislators who support this law feel so strongly about ensuring that every legal vote cast in Georgia is worth something, then why have they not initiated and supported a bill that will make it possible for Georgia voters to get a receipt from the voting machines as proof their vote has been cast for the candidate of their choice?

... Remember your rights are not all stripped away at once. It is a gradual, insidious process. This is the first step backward.

While almost 2,000 American troops have died fighting for freedom and democracy, and to expand access to voting for citizens of Iraq, the state of Georgia is doing just the opposite for its citizens. [snip]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One Rickety Old Republican Bus Rolling to "Give" Out IDs ???

State bus will roll for voter IDs
Nancy Badertscher - Staff
Tuesday, August 9, 2005

[snip] Under attack for Georgia's new voter ID law, state officials are putting a bus on the road to issue photo identification cards to low-income people.

The bus will roll Sept. 1, with the goal of helping Georgians meet the requirement that voters show photo identification at the polls --- and defusing criticism that the law will disenfranchise the poor, elderly and minorities. Georgians who haven't previously had a valid driver's license or state identification card can obtain a free ID card if they sign a form saying they can't afford the $20 fee.

But critics doubt that a single bus can serve thousands of Georgians who don't have a driver's license or photo ID, especially those who live in rural areas far from a Department of Driver Services site.

"It's a public relations gimmick," declared state Rep. Tyrone Brooks (D-Atlanta), president of the Georgia Association of Black Elected Officials.

It may be a bumpy road getting the bus out into the state. Heather Hedrick, spokeswoman for Gov. Sonny Perdue, said the bus, a hand-me-down from another department, will make its debut close to DDS headquarters in Atlanta because it might need further repairs. [snip]

Another assessment is that the one rickety old bus isn't enough to even handle the voters in the city of Atlanta, much less the entire state of Georgia.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

state officials are selling five-year cards for $20 and 10-year cards for $35, even though the Justice Department had only approved a $10 fee for four-year cards.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Come on folks. Don't you see what's happening here?

We need to come out against the following too! The report tried to discredit exit polls.

They recommend: "News organizations should voluntarily agree to delay the release of any poll data until the election has been decided" ...and, as demonstrated by the late night CNN poll adjustments, the poll results have been adjusted to reflect the vote count.

If this recommendation had been followed in 2004 nobody would know the exit poll results disagreed with the vote count. (See page 61 of the report)

Re: Comment #16 Additional info:

New Jersey Dead Voters

At a news conference at the State House, Tom Wilson, the state's party chairman, took pains to say that the analysis did not look at voters' party affiliation. He also said that the party was not accusing voters of committing fraud, suggesting instead that someone else may have exploited their names without their knowledge.

When asked about the Republicans' findings, Lee Moore, a spokesman for Mr. Harvey, said that "the letter will be reviewed" and that "a determination will be made as to what course of action will be called for, if any."

…Ingrid Reed, director of the Eagleton New Jersey Project at Rutgers University, said that she needed to review the analysis more carefully. But the potential for mistakes was certainly not insignificant, she said, pointing to mishaps in Florida in 2000, and in Ohio and Washington in 2004, and because New Jersey has not yet finished centralizing its voting lists, in accordance with the 2002 Help America Vote Act.
But Democrats dismissed the findings. Indeed, they were quick to note that a federal court had castigated Republicans for voter suppression tactics in the 1980's.

"If any investigation is needed, it should be done the right way, not the Republican way," said Richard McGrath, a spokesman for the state Democratic Party. "The Republican Party is infamous for voter suppression tactics, so they occupy the moral low ground on this issue."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

GOP has point regarding N.J. voter roles, but its approach sounds a lot like whining.
[snip] There's little doubt that New Jersey has its share of voter fraud, but duplicate registrations are inherent in a system that can't quickly expunge a name after a person dies or moves out of the county. Many voters are registered in two counties. It doesn't follow that all or even many of them committed fraud. Wilson acknowledged as much when he conceded that database errors account for many duplicate registrations.

GOP officials would have gained more credibility by disclosing their data to reporters, to let them go to counties to verify the numbers. Instead, they dumped this in Harvey's lap just weeks before an election, making it look more like grounds to cry "fix" after the fact than a call for reform. [snip]

Nuclearchemist - if you want to find out about a WHOLE LOTTA REAL FRAUD, read this:

John Conyers' Book - What Went Wrong in Ohio

"We have found numerous serious election irregularities in the Ohio presidential election," the Committee wrote in their official report, "which resulted in a significant disenfranchisement of voters. Cumulatively, these irregularities, which affected hundreds of thousands of voters and votes in Ohio, raise grave doubts about whether it can be said that the Ohio electors selected on December 13, 2004, were chosen in a manner conforming to Ohio law, let alone Federal election commission and constitutional standards."

The number of voters who were disenfranchised, and the number of votes that were spoiled, uncounted, and outright stolen (the committee diplomatically referred to it as "Kerry votes [being moved] to the Bush column") were far more than the 136,483 votes by which Bush officially "won" Ohio. If just 51 percent of those votes were fraudulent - roughly 70,000 votes being for Kerry but counted as for Bush (or an equal number of Kerry voters disenfranchised) - then John Kerry would be President of the United States right now.

Onyx #19:

MMIIXX said it so well on another thread - "Welcome to 1984."

The corruption will eventually be seen when it gets to the point that it undermines the base. There are none so blind as those who are motivated by greed. They will begin to lose track of their lies and then things will begin to fall apart. Their constituents are beginning to see through the veil of deception. It is (what some of us call it) the NeoCON base --- in both Republican and Democrat Parties.

The Prints of Darkness can be found in these latest attempts to make America into a Police State. The Prints of Peace will be leading up to the White House steps on 24 September, 2005. Yes, Someday, Our Prints Will Come.

...Doug Eldritch said on 9/19/2005 @ 7:17pm PT...
"Well this is it boys and girls, this is the war on voting rights."

What 'voting rights'?

The US constitution doesn't guarantee voting rights, only that each state shall establish it's own way of selecting electors, and most state constitutions probably don't either. Originally Senators were (s)elected by each state's legislature. And, if the Scalia's of the world, who insist on a 'plain reading' of the law's text, can say there is no 'right to vote', then we're right back to 1800 and the fascists might win.

If there's no right to vote, no opposition party (have Dems actually opposed Bush's war in Iraq), no right to voicing opposition in public (see Cincy Sheehan's arrest), then money rules.

Buddy can ya spare a few hundred million?

OT: Wayne Madsen has a terrific special report on the loss of US crypto communications superiority and how it relates to Israelis and 9/11.

http://www.waynemadsenreport.com

It appears the Israelis are either playing us or they're closely in league with the Neo-cons and perhaps other Bushies like Cheney.

Nuclear,

The problem isn't that Voter fraud is real the problem is the law is being mandated to have Photo IDs nationwide. If you want to stop voter fraud, you can put restrictions in at the state level. There is no need for a nationwide Photo ID law when its clear Voter fraud is not as widespread as the lying GOP claim.

In actuality, this is helping the real folks pulling the strings. Like they say the Israelis and Turkish traitors aka the NEOCONS, have a vested interest in destroying out democracy. Enforcing rules that are unconstitutional, doing away with any protective laws, is the road to that result. Prosecuting Diebold/ES&S is serious enough to have to be done. But punishing voters nationwide for what Diebold and cronies did is unconstitutional. Most voters, about over 90% don't even know how to do fraud.

Keeping a citizens database on them now is a way to destroy outright the right to privacy, and erode everything back to 40 years ago while the U.S. collapses.

ONE FOR ALL

LINK

In Chicago, where Kennedy won by more than 450,000 votes, local reporters uncovered so many stories of electoral shenanigans--including voting by the dead--that the Chicago Tribune concluded that "the election of November 8 was characterized by such gross and palpable fraud as to justify the conclusion that [Nixon] was deprived of victory."

... Ultimately, a special prosecutor, Morris Wexler, was appointed to investigate the Chicago fraud allegations. Wexler brought charges against 650 election officials but a Democratic judge's pro-defense rulings crippled Wexler's case and the charges were dropped.

Finally, in 1962, after an election judge confessed to witnessing vote tampering in Chicago's 28th ward, three precinct workers pled guilty and served short jail terms.
____________________________________________

Now I do realize that there was fraud on both sides but to say that fraud just happens in a few locations is silly.

I'm against fraud by any party. Voters should have easy access to get ID cards, paper printouts of the voting machine should be mandatory to verify accuracy. Mexico has voter ID cards and they are by no means an Orwellian state.

While I agree that a National Card will make things harder for poor and elderly voters, I also bet that these are some of the least likely people to actually vote; and good organization on the Dem side could more than make up for the extra hassle. If liberals want to end Republican election fraud, we need to do more than just bemoan Republican dirty tricks. We should take this report and use it to justify real changes in the way elections are run. If we have to agree to voter ID, then the other side has to agree to paper trails for all voting machines, to the creation of a nonpolitical election oversight group, and to toher changes that make a repeat of Ohio 2004 impossible. The right may think that ID cards are a winning proposition, but we could just as easily turn this into a real reform issue.

National ID cards is part of the "Orwellian State." Our country has been heading this way since the late '70s or possibly even before that. Remember when we (those who are old enough to remember and those who have studied this country's not so distant history) used to think Soviet Russia was such a prison camp because of (among other things) their national ID cards. Remember the old spy lingo, "Your papers, please." Don't you remember?

This is a Soviet socialization of the Republic of the USA.

Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) released a statement on his Web site denouncing the potential for a national ID card. He said, "National ID cards are not proper in a free society...this is America, not Soviet Russia," Paul said. "The federal government should never be allowed to demand papers from American citizens, and it certainly has no constitutional authority to do so."

Wake up folks and smell the coffee.

When Jimmy Carter was running in 1975, I thought he was a crony anyway, but I held my nose and voted for him, a corporate nut farmer from the south
Gone were the positive news blurbs for the populist candidates in the Democratic run up, yes even in 1975 it was already this way

Oh, and why do they keep talking about VOTER fraud when it's ELECTION fraud we're talking about here?

Oh yeah Kira, This military control has been going on since the 50"s, only now with these neo-cons it is right up front and center, these monsters are deep red

Fraud has been happening on both sides for years yeah, like since the 60s but this is ridiculous.

You don't MANDATE a national voter ID that's just ludicrous. I say if they want to force a REAL ID act, we force them to put "verifiable paper ballots" in every precinct and citizen oversight plus involvement in elections.

Also what both sides should agree to is instant runoff voting in the primaries, makes things quick, no fraud.

If we have to use national ID, it should be left to the states to decide. NOT the federal government.

Doug E.

This is a troubling issue for me for while I think there needs to be a ID's, I also believe in state's rights. The problem is, liberal states will never want to make ID's mandatory because it will cut into their ability to get people to vote who wouldn't normally vote.

Govenor Blanko was trailing Bobby Jindal during the day of the election. At noon, Blanco decided to mobilze the school buses in New Orleans and round up the poor people and take them to the voting stations. She ended up barely beating Bobby. Was it fraud? Nope. Was it ethical? Nope. To bad Blanco couldn't have mobilize those buses as quickly during Katrina. I guess she didn't need their vote that day.

Kira,

"We have found numerous serious election irregularities in the Ohio presidential election," the Committee wrote in their official report, "which resulted in a significant disenfranchisement of voters."

I didn't read his book but I did read his flawed report. If you paid attention, you can see where he will blame republicans, he will. Unfortunately for liberals, most of the report didn't(although the whole report implied it). Many of the problems identified were due to incompetent liberals. It's not like the entire election board/precints/voting stations were run by nothing but republicans. There were democrats sitting right next to them.

That's sort of like the liberals b*tching and moaning about the butterfly ballet in Florida. Excuse me, who was it that designed the butterfly ballot? It wasn't a republican...

Could argue with you for days, Nuke, but I don't have time or energy right now for that. Suffice it to say that if you don't study the book and the report and the history of the players in the game, you won't get it. And if you just listen to the ACVR folks you REALLY won't get it. Wish you would study, but I don't have time to keep after you.

This article reminds me of a whole lotta Americans right now:

Were Ordinary Germans Hitler's 'Willing Executioners'? Or Were They Victims of Humiliating Seduction and Abandonment?

[snip] The aim of my fieldwork was to collect impressions that could illuminate questions stimulated by competing interpretations of German behaviour. How did Hitler manage to incite a whole population to follow him? As Alan Jacobs puts it: ‘Why do people join political, religious, professional, or social movements, of whatever size, and surrender so completely, giving up, in the extreme, everything; their fortunes, their, critical thinking, their political freedom, their friends, families, even their own lives? What causes people to create a system or perhaps merely follow a system that creates Auschwitz, the Lubianka, the killing fields of Cambodia…’ (Jacobs, 1995, 1).

Several rival views may be contrasted. The first is represented by Goldhagen’s view of the Germans as thoroughly complicitous. According to Goldhagen, because of their antipathy and cruel indifference to the victims of Nazism, the Germans were willing, even eager, to ‘do their part’ (Goldhagen, 1996). Another analysis is offered by Norbert Elias, who argues that Hitler used his skills as a propagandist to build up the resentment of ordinary Germans and then directed the aggressive energy fermented by humiliation against Germany’s neighbours and against the Jews (Elias, 1996). Theodor Adorno focuses on the authoritarian personality whose principal characteristic is obedience and blindly following orders, irrespective of their moral contents (Adorno, 1950). Alice Millers highlights yet another facet in her writings on child rearing practices that create personalities who become disposed to develop into perpetrators (Miller, 1987). Another notion claims that Germans were ‘ignorant dupes, guilty mainly of shutting their eyes to unpleasant realities that they could readily have discerned if they had been willing to look.’ [2] Finally, Ervin Staub, in his book The Roots of Evil: The origins of genocide and other group violence (Staub, 1989), concentrates more on group dynamics and highlights the important role of bystanders. [snip]

The names have changed, but the game's still the same.

Kira,

Another analysis is offered by Norbert Elias, who argues that Hitler used his skills as a propagandist to build up the resentment of ordinary Germans and then directed the aggressive energy fermented by humiliation against Germany’s neighbours and against the Jews (Elias, 1996).

Are you sure that this section shouldn't read:

Another analysis is offered by Norbert Elias, who argues that liberals used their skills as propagandist to build up the resentment of ordinary Americans and then directed the aggressive energy fermented by humiliation against Bush.

Rovers got a couple of playbooks,
Machiavelli and Mein Kampf

Nuke - you're hopelessly brainwashed. You've been hypnotized by by Newt Gingrich's NLP Republicon propaganda.

You're spot on, Floridiot!

Kira,

Yes, I was brainwashed but I opened my eyes and saw the stupidity of liberals and became a conservative.

Glad you found a home.

#34

That kind of sounds like what the whole kenneth starr witch hunt of Clinton was. Propoganda to humiliate Clinton and bring him down.

Uhh the left can be just as much like Nazis as the right, there's no denying that. I don't for instance believe in ANY of the actions by the far-leftist green peace people who basically destroyed someone, violently attacked the CEOs, and tried to kill the president of one of those logging companies.

That was totally crazy. But now the right is out of control burning down abortion clinics and eating eachother. Following any of that propaganda is a BAD idea, and no american, should settle for a NATION WIDE ID LAW which will disenfranchise. That's just bullshit. The whole thing needs to be evaluated state by state.

Georgia may need it absolutely especially given "Diebold cathy Cox" who's stealing elections, and the corrupt Sonny Perdue. The parties there are so out of control its crazy, now FINALLY they are doing a verified paper ballot.

But to stop double voting you have to enforce an ID law. I just want to see every state do it their own way and make it easy enough for minority workers to get an ID.

Doug E.

I thought I did have a home one time in the liberal party. You know, the ones that fight for the oppressed. The party of Kennedy... the last great liberal president that had a pair. Unfortunaetly, the liberals are now home to communist loving anti-americans. Liberals get hysterical about 2,000 American soldiers killed in Iraq but don't blink an eyelash at over 10,000,000 babies killed in the U.S. during the past ten years by abortion.

Oh but what about the millions dead in Iraq and 100,000 dead civilians?

Abortion is so much damn fodder. Being pro-choice of any kind only means leaving the choice up to the woman to have the abortion or not.

It doesn't mean "liberals" or anyone is ENCOURAGING abortion, unbelievable. It means don't make it illegal and give them a choice.

Doug E.

Doug E,

"Oh but what about the millions dead in Iraq and 100,000 dead civilians?"

What millions dead in Iraq? Even the 100,000 dead civilians quoted by that British anti-war group has been widely discredited by normal people (that leaves liberals out). When they did that survey, they came up with a range of something like 8,000 dead to 180,000 dead so they decided to come up with a middle number of 100,000. Thus a myth was born. Try Iraqibodycount. They are more accurate.

OK, this isn't about the current thread but I about fell out of my chair laughing reading this. From radioblogger:

Don't get stuck on stupid LINK

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin held a press conference a little bit ago, and started losing control to a media pool assembled that was showing signs of panic, due to the previous incompetence in the region by the local and state government. Lt. Gen. Russel Honore stepped in and literally took over. Here's what he had to say:

09-20honore.mp3

Honore: And Mr. Mayor, let's go back, because I can see right now, we're setting this up as he said, he said, we said. All right? We are not going to go, by order of the mayor and the governor, and open the convention center for people to come in. There are buses there. Is that clear to you? Buses parked. There are 4,000 troops there. People come, they get on a bus, they get on a truck, they move on. Is that clear? Is that clear to the public?

Female reporter: Where do they move on...

Honore: That's not your business.

Male reporter: But General, that didn't work the first time...

{ed note: Comment shortened, due to copy and paste of whole article. Thanks for providing a few paragraphs and a link to the story.}

I don't agree with you, Nuke. Here's why:

100,000 Iraqis Dead: Should We Believe It?

#32:

Who designed the butterfly ballot? Theresa LePore, who was Republican until she switched to Democrat just in time to design the infamous butterfly ballot and then switched back to Republican afterwards. Interesting, that.

Look Nuke, millions of people have died in Iraq over the years we gave them nuclear arms. That was my point, and its mostly because of the Kurds and Shiites not Saddom.

We allowed them to have those biological weapons and kill eachother, and on purpose so we could profit. Its not any different today. I fail to see how "abortion trumps everything" and all those deaths in Iraq and the Middle-East are meaningless.

On OUR watch, too.

Doug E.

Kira,

Here's the conclusion of the article: "So, have excess 100,000 Iraqis died since the invasion? I don't know for sure. But this study convinces me that it is extremely likely that many tens of thousands of Iraqis have died, far more than the Iraqi Body Count estimate that I had previously relied upon. Noted Middle East scholar Juan Cole came to a similar conclusion.[31]"

I stand by my statement that the 100,000 number is propaganda BS.

Doug E,

"Look Nuke, millions of people have died in Iraq over the years we gave them nuclear arms."

OK, I understand you meant Chemical weapons. Even then, did we give them the weapons or give them the machinery. Not that there's that much of a difference but there is some.

We didn't do it for profit, we did it because Iran was a threat to Iraq at the time and we didn't want to see Iraq and Iran combined under the Mullahs.

I have no idea what you are talking about when you say:"That was my point, and its mostly because of the Kurds and Shiites not Saddom."

And thats not to say how many 10's of thousands more are going to die in the future, US soldiers and Iraqis alike from Depleted Uranium, Nuke Chem should realize this slight problem, or should we just overlook it to keep supporting the military propaganda machine's spin?

Floridiot,

Like I have stated before, there is 16 grams of natually occuring uranium per m3 of soil. We would be adding 0.7 grams to that meter. And how do think that will be causing deaths?

Why are some getting sick then?
It would seem that some are more sensitive to outside environs than others

On comment #44 on LINKS, we need more people like Gen. Honore to have answers like this for the liberal bashing media. His answers were great. I can not wait for the bumper stickers to come out. We now have a new RAGIN CAJUN. Eat your heart out James.

#41

Whether abortion is legal or not the numbers aren't much different than what they were when it was illegal. Nothing has changed the number of abortions has actually stayed steady. However STDs among teens has risen especially in the abstinence only crowd who aren't taught the proper education about protection and only fear their bodies.

I stand by my belief that even more than 100,000 have died in direct relation to the war in Iraq.

#47 let me add to the topic...to conservatives abortion trumps everything because they need our children (just little green plastic toys to them...not good enough, not blessed by God as they the elite) to kill later in their wars. It's not a conservative move to be (I choke as I say this...) Pro Life, because they are Pro War and don't want to fight. Stopping abortion guarentees them troops later, especially when they continue to destroy local economies forcing the young to enlist to feed their own. So the hyprocrisy is exposed in the question: How can you be Pro Life and be Pro War? The answer is clear, they aren't Pro Life at all!

#10 Jimmy Carter quite the commission in March, yet they still use his name to attempt to cover up the pure criminal acts they are committing.

I wish he wouldn't have quit, we need people to stick to them like glue then report back on all the fraud.....where oh where did this countries balls go?

#53...I'm printing up my bumper sticker tonight, only it will say the truth:

"Bush...stuck on Stupid"

Nuclear you're wrong yet again. Depleted uranium is killing thousands, and it is NOT any bullshit doseage issue. Its killing thousands by the day and this crap of "We must protect Iran" is pure bullshit.

We made MONEY off of selling the items to make the middle east MORE unstable even if we wanted it "more" stable. That is our efforts in a nutshell. And now it has borne fruit, a meat-grinder that will never go away.

Your garbage policies in action shitting all over the place. Thanks alot. What, is there any libertarian or liberal policies anywhere? NO, thanks to morons like you those policies are dead. DEAD. So why the fuck do you blame them I don't know, since the policies are DEAD and long buried.

BLAME YOURSELF FOR WHAT YOU SEE!!! PERIOD

Now what else did I forget here.....Saddam didn't cause that mess. The Kurdes, Shiites and everyone else there who hates the USA abroad caused that mess and now its unsalvageable.

Doug E.

I always heard vulgarity was used by people that had limited vocabulary. Websters says the definition of vocabulary is "1. stock of words used by a person, class of people, profession, etc. Reading will increase your vocabulary. 2. a collection or list of words, usually in alphabetical order and defined."

Sharlene,

Nobody bought the lipstick on the pig. General Honoroe didn't save BUSH's lousy image, and everyone knows the republicans are worthless lying sacks of shit.

It didn't do anything to the results. Isn't that too bad, for you it is. For america its a nightmare.

Doug

I was merely talking about vulgar language being used on this blog by people with a limited vocabuary. I will pray for you. God Bless You and God Bless America.

This past Sunday, I broke the breaking news about Rove being the leak in the Valerie Plame crime to the actors backstage at the Mark Taper Forum, where the play Stuff Happens is in its last two weeks. It was weird. I was telling George Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, and Dick Cheney that Karl Rove probably broke the law by leaking Valerie Plame's cover to the press.

Well, I was telling the actors who play those parts. It's a shame there's no Karl Rove in the play. It would have been positively surreal to tell that actor that his character was, hopefully, only weeks away from the Frog March.

Backstage at the Taper being a decidedly Blue State, there was a sense of eagerness, which has now, a few days later, settled into a kind of cynical hope. We've all realized that these sleaze bags are going to get the best lawyers in the world to try to weazel them out of this.

Jimmy Carter: two things:
1. Under Carter, Zbignew Brzezinski as National "Security" Adviser began his project of creating the Islamic Terrorist Network, via sending over $6 bn thru Pakistan, our "ally" in the War on Terror. No, this wasn't to defend them from Russian attack. This was to destroy the "Social-Democrat" Afghani government by use of warlords, and to "draw the USSR into the bear trap", their own Vietnam-like quagmire. near quote: Who cares about some hopped-up Moslems?

2. Under Carter, Ford's policy of funding genocide of Indonesia against the ppl of East Timor was continued.

East Timor, 1/3 of their 800,000 population was killed, was invaded just days after officially gaining freedom from Portugal (?) and setting up their own constitution, an operation that began moments /after/ a meeting with Ford and Henry Kissinger ended and they got on the plane to return. The majority were peaceful nearly stone age people, who lived in terror for 25 years.

One dramatic turn in PR was when Amy Goodman and her cameraman brother were nearly killed by Indonesian troops (while recording "live audio"), who instead massacred over 200 Timorese. (Australian reporters had been murdered when the invasion first began.) A Peace Prize winning Timorese Bishop tried to speak to Clinton but was ignored. Newt Gingrich told Amy he wanted to get to the bottom of it ... "if" it were true ... but only to "get" Clinton. Gringrich surely knew where our arms transfers were going.

Mr. Habitat for friggin Humanity, official member of the Tri-Lateral Commission. Sorry, I bought into the "poor peanut farmer" propaganda for most of my life.