Thanks for highlighting that very powerful essay.

This is so unbelievably horrible. I feel as though I am going to throw up and never stop. These republican facists are pure evil. There is no explanation for the criminal incompetence shown by the federal government. When you hear from the President of Jefferson Parrish that FEMA cut their phone lines, WTF ???! And that of course is just one of the many horror stories coming from N.O. FEMA refused to help the victims and won't let anyone else. This is murder, genocide, crimes against humanity, whatever horrible word or phrase you can think of. And WHY, WHY when someone is finally rescued are they treated like a terrorist.

I know that we are supposed to have hope that we can change things in America, but I don't. I'm sorry to say that. How can anything change when they control the voting machines, every branch of government & the media. I just want to leave America and never look back.

Right on! When are these fascist right wing nut Republicans, led by Chimpy McHitler, gonna ever learn? This trickle-down, voodoo, free enterprise stuff has been totally discredited by this disaster caused by the zionists.

We must no longer tolerate the plight of all the destitute poor people while the fat corporations and idle rich are allowed to pay no taxes as they count and re-count the piles of gold stashed in their basements.

That's why we need to elect Hillary as soon as possible so she can nationalize health care and all U.S. corporations, and move us closer to the socialist utopia which has enriched the lives of millions in Cuba, China, Sudan, the Soviet Union and other tourist destinations which are the envy of the world. I think Ward Churchill would make a fine Vice-Presidential choice.

Viva the Democrat Party Revolucion!

I wish to God the Democrats would speak up, speak out on this!

NorthCom Commander says that they were ready to help with search and rescue helicopters immed. after Katrina, but Bush never called

I guess the peace and prosperity we had in the 90's under a Democratic administration were not what Freedom Fan likes. I guess he/she prefers illegal wars, terror attacks, record budget deficits, criminally incompetent federal agencies, treasonous outing of CIA agents, looting the environment, stolen elections & torture. I'm sure you call yourself a Christian too Freedom Fan.
You are pathetic.

Ridiculous.

The federal government was not capable of preventing this, nor were they able to help the pathetic victims who were too damned stupid to get the hell out of there in the face of a Cat 5 hurricane.

It's not like PBS hasn't been reporting that New Orleans would eventually flood in the event of any Cat 3 or higher hurricane. Every literate person in America was aware of the precarious nature of New Orleans.

This was a Cat 5 storm for two days, only slacking to a Cat 4 as it made landfall. It was a GUARANTEE that the levies would be breached.

The only people surprised were the thousands of ghetto blacks who chose to stay and get pummelled, with nary a jug of water in reserve.

Alison

He, thank you.

This is what your blog sounds like to a Conservative. Apparently, most of you thought it sounded reasonable. What is more pathetic?

Manny writes:

"It's not like PBS hasn't been reporting that New Orleans would eventually flood in the event of any Cat 3 or higher hurricane. Every literate person in America was aware of the precarious nature of New Orleans."

Well Manny, it's your illiterate President and Homeland Security Secretary who say that they could not imagine the levees breaking.

As for the victims, most of them did not have the means to evacuate. So I guess in your opinion they got what they deserved. And I suppose you would call yourself a Christian too. Pathetic.

Alison

I think of these ghouls as 'ambassadors of goodwill' for their president. They mirror his greed and hatred. Feel the anger, they try to protect and defend him, but have caught his disease, and are very sick, and yes, pathetic.

Alison

Indeed the levees were designed to withstand a Cat 3 hurricane. Why is that Dubya's fault? He didn't spend enough or he spent too much? Pick one. What did your buddy Clinton do? What did the Democrat governor and mayor do?

And I suppose you call yourself a wiccan. Pathetic.

HELPDESK?
Re: #2, 6 & 7
Where do I go to complain about the sick, demented, racist trolls they're sending us these days?

Looks like they treated the Katrina disaster as a trial run for their "marshall law and squash the rebelling masses" plan of action --- guess they know they are (and it is their intention to continue) provoking the American people to the point of wanting to overthrow the government. This is also a trial run against the American people, prior to the Bush/Cheney nuking of one or more American cities, prior to the nuking of Iran.

The definition of a troll is anyone who hasn't had a relative or a loved one stranded on a rooftop.

Of course, that's every troll...because none of them are black, or poor, or lacking the means to escape even when warned to do so. Blame the victim. Provided, that is, that the victim is a poor person with no political consituency and no means of escape.

These are the same animals whose ancestors cheered for the lions in Rome two millennia ago. God, what a country we've created for ourselves.

Freedo Fan #7 --- You asked "what is more pathetic" --- well, YOU, of course!

The ghoulish former first lady is at it again:

Barbara Bush: Things Working Out "Very Well" for Poor Evacuees from New Orleans

By E&P Staff

Published: September 05, 2005 7:25 PM ET updated 8:00 PM

NEW YORK Accompanying her husband, former President George H.W.Bush, on a tour of hurricane relief centers in Houston, Barbara Bush said today, referring to the poor who had lost everything back home and evacuated, "This is working very well for them."

The former First Lady's remarks were aired this evening on National Public Radio's "Marketplace" program.

She was part of a group in Houston today at the Astrodome that included her husband and former President Bill Clinton, who were chosen by her son, the current president, to head fundraising efforts for the recovery. Sen. Hilary Clinton and Sen. Barack Obama were also present.

In a segment at the top of the show on the surge of evacuees to the Texas city, Barbara Bush said: "Almost everyone I’ve talked to says we're going to move to Houston."

Then she added: "What I’m hearing is they all want to stay in Texas. Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality.

"And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this (she chuckles slightly)--this is working very well for them."

Freedo Fan #10 --- You asked "(Dubya) ... didn't spend enough, or he spent too much? Pick one" --- That's easy: He didn't spend enough --- he cut the funding. Okay, I'm bored now.

Hi, Stop George #15 --- She won't be smiling for long --- I have a feeling the worst is yet to come. Allowing Bush to steal the presidency in 2000 has spelled total disaster for America. Allowing him to continue as president is like sealing the coffin.

re #11: That's a good question. I've come to believe that the more vicious the trolls, the more desperate the troll-meisters, and that the more sophisticated the trolling, the better we're doing as bloggers. So I take post #2 as a personal compliment and the others as a sign that their backs are getting uncomfortably close to the wall.

I'm all in favor of debating tactics! Bring on more straw men, more read herrings, more quick-change-the-subject, the more the merrier as far as I'm concerned. Every post full of spin shows that there's nothing to argue about.

And like everyone else, I've had more than enough of the vicious lies, the blaming of victims, and pre-emptive noise of all kinds.

Every time we get close to the level of truth-telling that might just take them down, they send us trolls armed with the message that our blog is hurting the Democrats or the Liberals or whatever they want to call us, because it is so "extreme" ... but let them hang around for four or five minutes and they start spewing the most extreme and hateful bullshit known to western civilization.

Do they think this will break the ties that bind us to our fellow human beings? Do they think this will cause us to stop caring about anything and anybody other than ourselves? By showing what lies at the heart of their opposition to our blog, they do themselves more harm than we could ever do to them.

So therefore I congratulate the racist hate-mongers, and I encourage them to keep it up. Compared to them, we sound even more sensible than we really are ... and in the meantime, the nature of this so-called presidential administration becomes ever clearer, as we see the sort of "support" that comes from the "right" ever-dwindling group of demented psychotics who still support the so-called president.

But aside from using their vitriol for our own purposes, I don't think we should read them at all.

The caption under the picture above of the matriarch of the "elite" Bush family, should say, "Let them eat cake!"

How did Bush get his mother on the 1-dollar-bill so fast???

Good essay, have to roll it around for awhile before commenting, I liked this one down at the bottom though

"The evacuation of New Orleans in the face of Hurricane Ivan looked sinisterly like Strom Thurmond's version of the Rapture."

Hey, thanks for putting up this essay. I admit I got a little bogged down in the history, but will re-read it later.

Appreciated the way he connected it all.
He even threwin bush's four letter word, CARE.

#18 sho''nuff

Manny #6

Surprisingly I find some area of agreement with you.

You stated.

"Every literate person in America was aware of the precarious nature of New Orleans."

"The only people surprised were the thousands of ghetto blacks who chose to stay and get pummelled, with nary a jug of water in reserve."

That of course is including our illiterate esteemed national leader George (Widiot) Bush who stated during his interview with Diane Sawyer on Good Morning America in response to Ms Sawyers question.

SAWYER: But given the fact that everyone anticipated a hurricane [Category] Five, a possible hurricane Five hitting shore, are you satisfied with the pace at which this is arriving? And at which it was planned to arrive?

BUSH: Well, I fully understand people wanting things to have happened yesterday. I mean, I understand the --- anxiety of people on the ground. I can imagine --- I just can't imagine what it's like to be waving a sign that says, "Come and get me now." So there is frustration. But I want people to know there is a lot of help coming. I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees. They did anticipate a serious storm. But these levees got breached, and as a result, much of New Orleans is flooded. And now we are having to deal with it and will."

Unfortunately through no fault of there own many of the blacks left behind are iliterate and very poor.

What is Mr Bush's excuse for his ignorance?

Manny #6

Surprisingly I find some area of agreement with you.

You stated.

"Every literate person in America was aware of the precarious nature of New Orleans."

"The only people surprised were the thousands of ghetto blacks who chose to stay and get pummelled, with nary a jug of water in reserve."

That of course is including our illiterate esteemed national leader George (Widiot) Bush who stated during his interview with Diane Sawyer on Good Morning America in response to Ms Sawyers question.

SAWYER: But given the fact that everyone anticipated a hurricane [Category] Five, a possible hurricane Five hitting shore, are you satisfied with the pace at which this is arriving? And at which it was planned to arrive?

BUSH: Well, I fully understand people wanting things to have happened yesterday. I mean, I understand the --- anxiety of people on the ground. I can imagine --- I just can't imagine what it's like to be waving a sign that says, "Come and get me now." So there is frustration. But I want people to know there is a lot of help coming. I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees. They did anticipate a serious storm. But these levees got breached, and as a result, much of New Orleans is flooded. And now we are having to deal with it and will."

Unfortunately through no fault of there own many of the blacks left behind are iliterate and very poor.

What is Mr Bush's excuse for his ignorance?

Found this comment on DailyKos --- It made me laugh --- they were talking about Bush's Ma:

"behind every Bush is a little asshole...

by tonycope on Mon Sep 5th, 2005 at 17:23:21 PDT"

M. Ruppert has predicted we will be seeing the same disruptions in all of the cities but proceding more slowly once the effects of peak oil hit us. Collapsing economy, mega depression, no food in stores, rioting, looting etc. The neocon elite ... the plutocrats insulated by their money and power. The rest of us... including the trolls ... more or less having to fend for ourselves (because helping people is not the function of government...don't ya know.), fighting for the crumbs of food (food and later water will be big issues) and there will be many many dead. Perhaps then the trolls might recall their folly because the plutocrat fascists won't want them unless they're rich or really smart....which eliminates the trolls. And we won't want you either.

I'm throwing in a wild-ass theory about the supposed people shooting at rescue workers.

It doesn't make any sense that even criminals are shooting at rescue workers, because they're dying, too. I believe that there is no one shooting at rescue workers (the story has changed several times, if you've noticed, and have you seen any footage whatsoever of people shooting at rescue workers?). I believe these rumors were started, in case people witnessing things they shouldn't be, need to be shot. And they can blame the "criminals shooting at rescue workers". And anyone they shoot, they can say they shot "criminals shooting at rescue workers."

There is no way, in my mind, there is any reason that even a criminal would be shooting rescue workers. NO WAY! This makes absolutely no sense! Explain to me, what even a criminal would get out of shooting a rescue worker?

And, did you see how many times the "shooter" stories have changed and been retracted? These stories REEK!

Prove me wrong! Did you see any rescue workers interviewed, who say they were being shot at? And if there were, did they catch the guys? They can't catch some physically ill guy with no food, shooting at rescue workers? And why would he be shooting at them?

The simplist way to put it: There may or may not be people shooting at rescue workers, but if there are, they aren't New Orleans residents, criminals or not!

WP -

THANK YOU for alerting us to Stan Goff, whom I've read before but had lost track of! Very fine analytical ability, combined with a spirit that functions as it should, make him a treasure on my favorites list from now on.

Is this a point of bifurcation? Let's hope so.

AUDIO - Unbelievable Insensitivity

This to me is the crux of the matter:

"I can’t help but think, as I read Rod Bush’s piece, of the barefoot boy in New Orleans going through the garbage heap, and about the September 24th mobilization against the war in Iraq. When Dr. King was gunned down, three years after Malcolm X was assassinated, he had been planning a massive Poor People’s March for Washington DC. No one will ever convince me that this plan and his assassination were not connected.

Right now, while the nature of this system is exposed in its ruthless inhumanity, may be the time to revisit this internationalism and to finish what King started.

A new Camp Casey has spring up on the north shore of Lake Ponchertrain, this time to provide relief. Some of the same Iraq veterans and military families who were set up as sacrifices on the alter of Imperialism are now moving to assist the latest victims of Imperial attack.

Perhaps this will not be the flap of the butterfly’s wings that will create that decisive destabilization. We can’t know."

So, who's going to the September 24 anti-war (anti-Bush) rally in D.C? SIT ON BUSH'S DOORSTEP WITH CINDY!!

Very good essay. I would have thrown in the long-range effects of the 1876 presidential fiasco and resulting deals, but that's a very minor point.

We are living what Lincoln warned against. (I wouldn't call his thought a "dim recognition" because it is exactly what has happened, beginning with "corporate personhood" in the 1880's and on into our stressed and confused culture.)

“I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. … corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed.”

The only good thing about bu$h, the neocons, and the blatant crony capitalists currently infesting our government is that the whole structure of de-humanizing, commodifying greed is up front and obvious. Even it's working on the prejudices of the people is obvious.

Exposing, in such a tragic and glaring way, the Third World conditions that exist now in our nation could tip the balance and shine a light on the whole f*cking charade.

(And I thought this message was going to say, "I'm at a loss for words.")

Big Dan --- That's been bothering me, too.

Winter,

Thanks for posting the article about the article. What an incredibly thoughtful and educational piece of writing. This guy actually thought long and hard about the situation in NO and Iraq, and put us in touch with his thoughts in such an eloquent way.

Ohmygod, am I starting to sound like a Californian, or what? Q: How many Californians does it take to change a lightbulb? A: Five. One to change the lightbulb, and four to share the experience. (Just to be clear, I am joking about my comments above, not about Stan Goff's eloquence. And, maybe Californians aren't like that any more?)

This is a great antidote to that (#@%%%#) guest blog by Joseph Cannon, and makes me see that had Cannon had a chance to make a sixth to those five Californians changing the lightbulb, he would have stuck his finger in the wall socket and fupped everything uck.

VG

Luck it wasn't a terror attack on some other city ,don't ya thunk.
#6 You got it partly correct ,with
"The federal government was not capable"
,the majority would agree with you on that part of your humanitarian statement ,another "Compassionate Conservative" just trying to educate you all.

...the more sophisticated the trolling, the better we're doing as bloggers. So I take post #2 as a personal compliment and the others as a sign that their backs are getting uncomfortably close to the wall.

I'm all in favor of debating tactics! ...
-Winter Patriot

You're welcome. I admire your courage. Apparently this site is a supporter of the first amendment, unlike on most college campuses which shout down any dissent with bogus charges of racism and hate speech. You know, like the one BUSHW@CKER proly attended. Indeed if anything which is said was "racist", leave it up and let your readers decide. Absolutely try to use it against your opponents, if it will stick.

... By showing what lies at the heart of their opposition to our blog, they do themselves more harm than we could ever do to them.

So therefore I congratulate the racist hate-mongers, and I encourage them to keep it up. Compared to them, we sound even more sensible than we really are...
-Winter Patriot

Nice try dude but my post #2 is a parody of some of your "enlightened" progressive posters:

…I see some of you have been caught up in the ZION media brainwashing... The flooding was caused when a LEVEE was INTENTIONALLY rammed by grain barges which were piloted by MOSSAD and local SAYANIM sleeper agents…
-ABLE DAGGER

But I suppose Able Daddy is a racist "conservative" troll? Or is this just another straw man?

Every time we get close to the level of truth-telling that might just take them down, they send us trolls armed with the message that our blog is hurting the Democrats or the Liberals or whatever they want to call us, because it is so "extreme" ... but let them hang around for four or five minutes and they start spewing the most extreme and hateful bullshit known to western civilization.
-Winter Patriot

Gee, I guess you got us there. My back is indeed uncomfortably close to the wall; my side is losing badly. Please, please stop publishing this insightful stuff; you guys are skewering us. You're right again, my posts are full of the most extreme and hateful bullshit known to western civilization. Unlike your compassionate progressive buddies:

…these W-worshipping numbskulls deserve to suffer and to die…
–Joseph Cannon

…DROWN AND DIE, YOU ARROGANT HILLBILLY SOUTHERN-FRIED LEECHES...
–Joseph Cannon

No, no, mercy, mercy. Um...on second thought, please don't stop. You're right; everyone will vote Democrat after y'all convince them how evil Republicans are.:laugh:

Yes, it appears that the right wing internet warriors have been deployed in force.

Dan, I think you are right that, perhaps ironically, these folks will not necessarily be spared when the hammer comes down.

Maybe that sounds like a relatively solid chance to them.

Maybe it is.

I like the phrase "abject anger". I have been realizing more and more that both too much anger and too much despair amount to complicity

The only thing that I can see different from what Lincoln's time had was this huge Military Industrial Complex (top 1%ers) owned media
He was right about one thing, if they take over, we're done for, this tragedy might bring the problem of class to the forefront for awhile, but they'll spin it off before long

If they do not start focusing on our rotting infrastructure
and the votes against the Corps and other Federal funding, we are going to see alot more tragedies like this, bridges collapsing, Etc. but good ol Ted Stevens will still get his pork for Alaska's bridges to nowhere

Help Build, One/Global/Community 4 Times Like This

Jump In Today &

Help Build, One/Global/Community

4 All of Us...

4 Times Like This...

See How to Get Started...

KIDS all over the Earth

Will Love U 4 It...

Go 2

http://www.OneGlobalCommunity.com

This Project Can B Up and Running in Days... All Over the Earth...

O Yes It Can...

Thank U, Roger@OneGlobalCommunity.com

I wasn't trying to paint you with the same brush, nor could I because you haven't said anything that was racist or hateful... at least not yet, and you seem way too smart to start now ... so I apologize if I was unclear about that.
-Winter Patriot

Thank you. But I wasn't imagining things. When other posters realized I was a Conservative they immediately assumed I was a white, male, Christian, called me a racist and begged for my removal.

However, I have nothing but respect for you, Valley Girl and some of the other posters who have intelligence, integrity, and are consistently compassionate (not just when it suits your political purposes).

So that's about the most devastating thing I could say about you because it will proly ruin your reputations with the others in the "reality based" community.

Ever notice how folks tend to become Conservative as they become older and wiser? Going the other direction is rare--Arriana maybe.

I can tell your heart is in the right place and you are highly intelligent and hold reverence for the U.S. Constitution. In other words, about five years away from becoming a Conservative.

All that remains is that you find honest, snarkless, thoughtful answers to these questions:

1) Who is primarily responsible for a person's happiness and welfare?

2) When does life begin? Is innocent life sacred? Do humans have souls?

3) Why are Republicans painted as bigots? (Which party freed the slaves? Was it the party of the segregated South? Was it their voting patterns and behavior during the Civil Rights Movement of the 60s? Is it because Republicans oppose racial discrimination yet today--ie. affirmative action? Are they represented by racists--eg. a U.S. Senator who was a former KKK Kleagle?)

4) Is war ever justified? (What would the world be like today had hitler won? Were there any Democrat politicians who doubted that saddam had WMD, or are they just using this error as a "big stick" to beat up Dubya for political purposes? What would the world be like today if we did nothing when saddam invaded Kuwait, then Saudi Arabia, then was in a position to dictate oil prices on 75% of the world's known reserves, then build an arsenal of ballistic missles glistening with thermonuclear devices? At what point would saddam be considered a "threat to our national security"?)

5) Why do Islamists want to kill us? (If it is our policies, then why did they kill us before these policies? Why do they kill innocent folks in all these countries: Israel, Afghanistan, Argentina, Australia, Egypt, France, Germany, Greece, India, Indonesia, Italy, Japan, Lebanon, Morocco, Pakistan, the Philippines, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Spain, the United States, the United Kingdom, et al. If we change our policies will all these countries be safe? Is Sharia a healthy legal framework? Are Muslim women happy?)

6) When has socialism ever worked? Why is it regarded as a panacea by liberals? Are you aware that a definition of insanity is attempting to do the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results each time?

Many are condemning the federal government which bu$hit does not seem to realize he is a part of. He is going to head up a commission to investigate what went "right" and what went "wrong". Gag me.

Conservatives are condemning it too ... but they also were part of it.

And the truth is coming out. The bu$hit administration WORKED HARD ... against money to fix and improve the levees ... and "fired" a conservative republican senator who advocated such improvements on behalf of the Corps of Engineers:

"Just as serious, the President’s priorities, his indifference to questions of infrastructure and the environment, magnified an already complicated disaster. In an era of tax cuts for the wealthy, Bush consistently slashed the Army Corps of Engineers’ funding requests to improve the levees holding back Lake Pontchartrain. This year, he asked for $3.9 million, $23 million less than the Corps requested. In the end, Bush reluctantly agreed to $5.7 million, delaying seven contracts, including one to enlarge the New Orleans levees. Former Republican congressman Michael Parker was forced out as the head of the Corps by Bush in 2002 when he dared to protest the lack of proper funding.

(link here, emphasis added).

Help. My heart is breaking for the people of New Orleans. I want to email reps. to start impeachment proceedings..www.house.gov, I can only call my rep. here in Maine. I want to email and call a bunch of them. I am old and not computer savvy. You 7 or 8 please help. If you've ever gone to New Orleans and have an ounce of life, you fall in love with the city and it's people. I am having a hard time with despair but want to be useful. This is genocide.

Thats what Conservatism,(corporatism,fascism) is
keep trying the same thing over and over again
it's the same as an oligarchy, been there, done that

It is unconscionable that anyone could blame a poor black person for being stranded in New Orleans.

Trust me, the American public is strongly turning against those who behave like this. It is tantamount to claiming that people are poor simply because they want to be, they like to be poor.

I believe we may finally be witnessing the waking of the public (after 5 nightmarish years) to the misdeeds of this Administration... especially with such responses.

Keep it up conservatives! The louder you scream, the more the American public will turn against you.

Some people thought that the Clinton administration was a disgrace. Well... perhaps... but I'll take a president who can't keep his pants up any day over the hell Bush has turned this country into.

re #36 Where you been hiding, Freedom Fan?

When I attacked the right wing trolls for being hateful and racist I was talking mostly about what's been going on in other threads. I wasn't trying to paint you with the same brush, nor could I because you haven't said anything that was racist or hateful... at least not yet, and you seem way too smart to start now ... so I apologize if I was unclear about that.

For the record, the only thing I said that was intended in your direction was the compliment on your post #2, which was a pretty good curveball. The rest was about the stuff the other trolls have been throwing at us lately, which has been very racist and hateful and also quite inferior.

You wanted to know what I thought about recent remarks by Able Dagger and Joseph Cannon... I don't know who Able Dagger is, nor has he built up any significant track record here, so although I noted his comment, I didn't pay any particular attention to it. Did you? What did you think? Personally I have no idea what he's on about. I wouldn't be surprised if he's protecting Mossad. Or trying to. But I couldn't imagine why. It's not as if Mossad has ever done anything to us ;-(

And I have already said in several places that I do not agree with Joseph Cannon about his position on support of the hurricane relief efforts. So I am not going to defend what either of them wrote.

It seems to me that this could be a good arrangement, would you agree? I won't hold you responsible for comments that you didn't make, and you won't hold me responsible for comments that I didn't make. How will that work?

What else? Yeah, we believe in the First Amendment. Pretty cool, don't you think?

Here's a good line from Thomas Paine:

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."

What else?

It is unconscionable that anyone could blame a poor black person for being stranded in New Orleans...
-MrBlueSky

I agree. Wasn't that post by Joseph Cannon despicable?

Freedom Fan,

As one of the most moderate voices on this blog, I frequently disagree with some of the blog posts here. Please see my initial response (Post #40) on that blog item. You will see how I truly felt about his post.

RE: Latest Barbara Bush's comment. You have to excuse her she thinks she is being compassionate.
Stupidity runs in the family.

The woman has never had to earn a living in her life, she truly cannot imagine, a baby crying with hunger, or thirst. Or even dying from dehydration.

AND THE WATER JUST HAD TO BE FLOWN IN FROM A SHIP STATIONED IN THE SEA WITH FOOD AND WATER. SO CLOSE BUT NO ONE CARED.

Bill Maher said it well," they cannot imagine, not driving away from disaster in their SUV to their second home."

As one of the most moderate voices on this blog, I frequently disagree with some of the blog posts here. Please see my initial response (Post #40) on that blog item. You will see how I truly felt about his post.
-MrBlueSky

True. You're one of the good guys. I was just teasing, in my dark, twisted way. My apologies.

Freedom Fan,

Thanks for the kind words. It is truly appreciated.

Indeed, the best example I can give is on the August 31 blog item, "Larisa tells Bush: Go Cheney Yourself!" My Post #23 exemplifies my position.

While I usually agree with at least 80% of the blog items and response posts (or more!!), I asked that perhaps we should learn to be a little more diplomatic about expressing ourselves. Note, this doesn't mean that we Progressives should change our position; only that we need to learn to obtain the protocols of a diplomat, especially when sharing our opinions with others who do not share our views. Specifically: decrease the vitriol, no more name calling and give careful consideration to the views of others.

I agree that Bush and Cheney should be impeached immediately (and in another blog item today, I indicated that I advised Congressman Dave Reichert exactly that).

However, I refrain from the us vs. them approach as much as possible in order to avoid Civil War II.

Please note this, Freedom Lover:

I have no idea whether or not Brad's investigative work and theories can hold up under the pressure of scrutiny. But, I can tell you this. The MSM/neocon establishment has NEVER even given Brad a chance to prove his theories.

Until then, I will continue to support everything Brad does.

Sorry I meant Freedom Fan, not Freedom Lover. (Although I'm sure both are accurate for you.)

MrBlueSky

Hey read this funny stuff by the HogOnIce.com guy, Steve Graham:

Bush Is Satan

An example:

If George Bush crapped gold bars and handed one to every single hurricane victim, and then he raised the dead and parted the flood waters and turned the power back on and resurrected the Beatles and got them back together and lowered the price of oil to two cents per barrel and invented a cure for cancer while farting Chopin nocturnes and turning the oceans into chilled Dom Perignon and the beaches into caviar, liberals would STILL find reason to bitch.

Really liked the article. Wrote a Daily Kos diary about it.

(Link didn't seem to work. Try this:
http://www.dailykos.com/...ory/2005/9/6/125015/2171)

One more diary to note at Daily Kos about Camp Casey at Covington, LA

http://www.dailykos.com/...ory/2005/9/6/165428/1974

(How come I can't get links to work? I used the Help thing, and then tried the HTML tags they use at dKos. Nothing worked.)

For FreedomFan, re #42: thanks for your long and thoughtful comment. I will get back to you on some of those questions when I have a chance to do so. Sorry it can't happen right away ... but there's this funny little thing I like to call "my life", and it needs me!

:angry: Are we trying to start a war against us white people? I think this article makes a good point but then goes on way too far! I felt an impending (push) towards a black takeover. This article will only further enrage the black population, confuse the black population, and evoke the black population! Keep writing articles like this and you'll see blacks attacking us innocent God fearing whites who don't have anything to do with this bull shit! We shouldn't be overly concerned about Racism but should be overly concerned about the plan to decrease the US population. Let's wait and see how many of the supposedly rescued people (black and white) suddenly die terrible deaths. (because the already dead people aren't enough) At that time we need to UNITE! All of Us. Blacks and Whites! This isn't a Racial issue. It's a Human issue! Take the close-minded bigotted blindfolds off your eyes! Wake Up and smell the genocide!

Read the constitution, fools.

It's the responsibility of the state, not the federal government, to have an evacuation plan in order.

Have any of you read the constitution?

#42 --- Don't worry about VG. I've seen enough Valley Girl postings to have a good idea where she stands - looks good to me.

I don't have quite the respect for your questions as some others on the list do. It's more of the "let's talk about this instead" diversion, although some of them are interesting.

Is the liberal/conservative thing big on this blog? I've never thought so, although many trolls are obsessed with it for apparently political reasons.

You said re: VG, "I can tell your heart is in the right place and you are highly intelligent and hold reverence for the U.S. Constitution." I agree, and so, I'm sure, almost every other regular poster on BB does, too. So, what are you saying? The "intelligent" ones - which covers most of us -are "five years away from becoming conservative"? (If you believe we don't revere the Constitution, you haven't been listening.) And what is it to "become conservative"? Is it a revelation, a awakening? Nonsense, conservatism is not a party line or an illumination. It is a characteristic of thinking that all of us have to one extent or another - which you would discern if you studied many of our remarks. (Even though some would deny it.)

You said, "All that remains is that you find honest, snarkless, thoughtful answers to these questions" - What a bunch of malarky. That's not all that remains. All it is is something on your mind that reveals an ignorance of what we have been discussing for a long time.

For example, you brought up socialism, we didn't. And, like most "alternative" posters, you are obsessed with "liberal" and "conservative", trying to fit a diversity of thought into a system that is unable to contain it. It's time for all of us to get beyond that creaky and useless dichotomy and focus on what we are actually experiencing and saying. I'm saying this very seriously because I think these phony, obsessive controversies are vitiating serious and clear discussion.

A discussion of first two questions would possibly be useful, not for identifying whether or not a person is a "conservative", but as an entry into a discussion of life and community.

I'm afraid the other questions are of far lower quality and reveal an unfortunate ignorance.

We are talking about subjects here - not Republican and Democrat. Personally, I am neither, and believe both parties carry a huge burden of hypocrisy. Regarding one of your questions - There is unquestionably basis in the contention that the national Republican party has intentionally kept blacks off the voter rolls. As Mr. Fitrakis noted in one of Brad's interviews, elections have now gotten down to a contest between Democrats trying to include more voters and Republicans trying to eliminate them - mostly blacks. They also employed the "Southern Strategy" in Nixon's time to divide the races, among other things. Blacks vote overwhelmingly Democratic. Why? (Let's not have a bigoted answer, now.) The Republican leadership uses propaganda to blanket Arab inhabitants of the Middle East in one-dimensional cartoon form. There is no way the 9/11 Sadaam big lie would have worked otherwise.

This post is getting way to long. (Like WP, gotta catch this blog when I can.) I haven't heard anyone here say that war would never be justified. Many on this blog will be happy, if they have time after having analyzed it and explained it in so much depth, why this one is criminal. You should have been listening.

Not sure what you mean by "Islamists", but, yes, it is aggressive corporate empire-building and culture-destruction that creates enemies (with tentacles world-wide). Do you think they hate us just because they are haters? That sounds bigoted to me (as well as being nonsense.)

You are right about one thing. A change in policies won't help as long as the world and our nation continue to allow the cancer of progressively concentrated corporatization - and all that Lincoln warned and despaired about (quoted in Goff's article) - to be "legitimate".

One clarification --- I said, "... it is aggressive corporate empire-building and culture-destruction that creates enemies (with tentacles world-wide)"

Should have said, "...it is aggressive corporate empire-building and culture-destruction (with tentacles world-wide) that creates enemies."

One more comment about #42 --- Brad bloggers please be aware of a subtle technique of propaganda and a logical fallacy (the formal name of which escapes me at the moment). FF's comments about "conservatives" and "all that remains" - to preface his list of questions - indicates to me that we are dealing with the fallacy that we have to give the "right answer" to each question in order for anything we say to have validity or legitimacy. We can easily take apart some of the questions, but can we do so with every one?

This is the major problem with the liberal/conservative backwater of so-called argumentation we all get stuck in so often and the basis of my dismissal of "party line" as unproductive and no more than an obsession.

#40 Molly,
I Googled "Congressional Email Directory" & clicked on the first on the list which brought me here:

http://www.webslingerz.c...fman/congress-email.html

You can click on any state from the list on the left side of the page & it gives you contact info for senators & congresspeople.
Some don't have email addresses & some don't work, some have forms you have to fill out (which mostly do work even though I'm not in their state);
but I've been going down that list state by state & emailing as many senators as I can. It's slow going; if anyone has a faster method please let me know. Meanwhile I'm slogging through them this way.

btw, Molly, I'm probably one of the LEAST computer-savvy people here, so my apologies if what I'm suggesting is the stone-age route!
Peace, Joan

Sorry, that should have been "#44, Molly"

...you brought up socialism, we didn't...
-Arry

...A change in policies won't help as long as the world and our nation continue to allow the cancer of progressively concentrated corporatization...
-Arry

I see.

I'm afraid the other questions are of far lower quality and reveal an unfortunate ignorance. We are talking about subjects here - not Republican and Democrat.
-Arry

Sorry if some of my questions were the "wrong" questions. Feel free to ignore any which you are uncomfortable answering. However, if you believe that my comment contains forbidden topics representing a diversion away from your agenda--constantly bashing Bush--or whatever, then it would seem to me that you folks are the ones putting out "propaganda" not me.

...And what is it to "become conservative"? Is it a revelation, a awakening? Nonsense, conservatism is not a party line or an illumination. It is a characteristic of thinking that all of us have to one extent or another...
-Arry

Quite true. That is really the whole point of my comment. Conservativism and Liberalism are two divergent world views each with a set of characteristics flowing from a general premise about the fundamental nature of humanity. If one chooses certain positions inconsistent with his fundamental world view, he must do so on the basis of emotion or intellectual laziness. In time, a thoughtful person will seek to reconcile conflicting thoughts and inconsistent viewpoints.

Your objection really is that some of your answers would fall into the Conservative side of the ledger. I think deep down you realize the cognitive dissonance you would begin to experience if you honestly took a position on each of my questions. Ultimately, this mental conflict would represent a threat to your Liberal world view.

This is why you must pretend that my questions are not relevant, or represent some sort of trick, or dismiss the questioner as a troll or some sort of agent of the GOP.

This is the same reason that Winter Patriot diplomatically avoided answering same.

This is why Liberalism typically must be held as a sort of religion--dogmatically taken on faith--and it must not be subjected to the sunshine of honest debate. The healthy policy of this blog is extremely rare in that regard.

This is why Liberalism is often antagonistic to traditional religion, which represents a challenge to its own fervently held religious beliefs in secular humanism and moral relativism.

#53 Freedom Fan...do I understand this correctly?
You believe Bush is Jesus or Moses incarnate?
I am confused. I know a few hundred thousand thinks he works for God, but haven't heard him referred to as Jesus or Moses.

Hey Freedom Fan: In comment #56, I promised I'd get back to you regarding your post #42. As you have pointed out, I do have some intelligence and some integrity, and when I say I will do something, you can count on me to do it. I am not afraid of your questions and there was no cause for you to assume that I was. You should be aware that your credibility suffers when you argue from false assumptions, as you did in #64, in which you pretended to know

the [...] reason that Winter Patriot diplomatically avoided answering [...]

Unfortunately my whole life does not revolve around the questions submitted to me on this blog. And I was very busy yesterday. But now I do have some time ... so let's have a quick look at some of the comments and questions from #42:

I can tell your heart is in the right place and you are highly intelligent and hold reverence for the U.S. Constitution. In other words, about five years away from becoming a Conservative.

Ha! I am about five hundred light years away from becoming a conservative, and the farther Bush and his cronies move away from true conservative principles, the farther away I get.

1) Who is primarily responsible for a person's happiness and welfare?

How many hundreds of billions of dollars of our money does the federal government have to spend every year on what they call "defense" and "security" before they are willing to take some responsibility for providing what they say they are spending all that money on?

2) When does life begin?

Nobody knows. Many people say they know but nobody knows for sure. So what? It's not even an issue; it's only a wedge. Its main function is to drive people apart. I refuse to be driven away from the people I love by a stupid wedge.

Is innocent life sacred?

Those who believe that innoncent life is sacred are saying the USA needs to stop waging war on the rest of the world. And I am one of those people.

Do humans have souls?

As far as I can tell, some do and some don't. Many of those who seem to lack souls have made their way to the pinnacle of our nation's government. And they are using the power of the government against the best interests of their people. Support them if you wish, but take care not to lose your own soul in the process.

3) Why are Republicans painted as bigots?

Maybe because of the things they say? Maybe because of the things they do? Maybe both? Actions speak louder than words, so I'll vote for the things they do.

(Which party freed the slaves?)

What happened 140 years ago has no meaning in this context. The people who freed the slaves are all dead. The people who took over their party are still here. Those who wish to focus on the past must have a reason for not wanting us to focus on the present. And I can think of a lot of reasons why they might not want us to look too closely at what is happening now. But in the meantime if you want to vote for the party of Bush and Cheney because of what Abe Lincoln did, that's your choice. But such a specious argument will never cut any ice with me!

4) Is war ever justified?

Sure. If a foreign army invaded and occupied our country, we would be justified in waging war against them. We would even be justified in waging war against an army that attacked one of our allies. But nothing like that has happened for a long time. So now we've embarked on a new policy, in which we wage pre-emptive war against countries which do not even threaten us. Do you support that policy? And if so, does that mean that in your view, innocent life is sacred but only in America?

(What would the world be like today if we did nothing when saddam invaded Kuwait, then Saudi Arabia, then was in a position to dictate oil prices on 75% of the world's known reserves, then build an arsenal of ballistic missles glistening with thermonuclear devices? At what point would saddam be considered a "threat to our national security"?)

I can't tell if this series of hypothetical questions is based on lunacy or fantasy. Or just too much Kool-Aid. But it is certainly not based on reality. None of this was about to happen. In 1991, Saddam Hussein was tricked into attacking Kuwait and then rendered utterly defenseless. Since then his country has struggled under the most repressive sanctions; since 1991 he has never posed any threat to us, or to our allies. Apparently that doesn't matter to you, but to me it is very important.

5) Why do Islamists want to kill us?

Could it be because they have been organized, trained, funded, and incited to do so? And who was doing the organizing, the training, the funding and the inciting? Could they have been in any way connected to the CIA? Could they have been supported and spurred on by radical right-wingers, eager for an excuse to shred our Bill of Rights and impose Martial Law? I wouldn't want to bet against it! The history of Islamic terror is a very twisty road, much of which was built by people like George H.W. Bush and Ronald Reagan. There is a damned good reason why the Al Qaeda training manuals read like CIA treatises on "tradecraft". We are now reaping what they sowed. How tragic! I suggest you consult Juan Cole on this one. Here would be a good place to start.

If it is our policies, then why did they kill us before these policies?

The policies they hate have been in effect, in one form or another, since "our" country was "discovered" by people who didn't seem to notice that others were already living here. And these same policies have been officially sanctioned by the US government since the Monroe Doctrine was declared in the 1820's. On the other hand, Islamist violence has been happening for less than 50 years. I suggest you consult your dictionary --- it can probably tell you the meaning of the word "before".

6) When has socialism ever worked? Why is it regarded as a panacea by liberals? Are you aware that a definition of insanity is attempting to do the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results each time?

If I ever advocate a switch to full-bore socialism then this question may become relevant. At the moment I would be happy with a little bit of accountability in government. But in the meantime, I would think it might be instructive to see how countries such as Sweden and the Netherlands are governed, and what sorts of problems they face, and what sorts of problems they cause.

But I don't want to hog the thread, so perhaps you'd like to answer a few questions too. Let's start off slow and simple. Why don't you tell us all how someone who calls himself a Fan of Freedom and professes to support the Constitution can also support a government which has shredded key provisions of the Bill of Rights?

I imagine you have a life to live, as do I. So take your time. And don't worry; I won't be casting any aspersions here while we wait for your response.

MERIFOUR

Right. I'm sure all your readers will agree that what I wrote is that "GWB is Jesus himself".

Perhaps you could quote me on the part where I said that.

Or perhaps you are up to the challenge: A non-snarky, thoughtful answer to each of my questions?

I thought so.

Winter Patriot

Thank you for responding, although some of your reponses seem evasive. I understand most of what you wrote and will rebut within the next couple days. However, I don't know how to respond to this:

Why don't you tell us all how someone who calls himself a Fan of Freedom and professes to support the Constitution can also support a government which has shredded key provisions of the Bill of Rights?

Please elaborate.

re #68

It's a simple question. The so-called Patriot Act, among other legislation passed within the past 4 years, does serious damage to rights we once thought were inviolate.

It's hard to imagine that you were not aware of this already.

Winter Patriot

Please provide list of names of American citizens whose Constitutional rights have been violated by the Patriot Act.

#70 - How about the 77 year old man in Ohio that had helicopters with 8 lawmen land on his 5 acres searching for marijuana.. The man a Korean vet, not even a parking ticket. BUT had spoken out against Bush on a small AM radio program.

The radio station also had two power strikes in a 3 week time frame....never had happened before.

Oh yeah, found NO marijuana.

#70 - These were FBI and local law....WITH NO WARRANT.

re #70. By law, those whose rights have been violated are not to be informed of the violation. So we do not have a list of those whose rights have been violated, and we never will; this in my view is one of the most heinous aspects of the legislation.

Most TRUE CONSERVATIVES are aware of the dangerous precedents established in the last four years, and are extremely upset about it. For one example, see Freedoms Lost Under George W. Bush by Chuck Baldwin

I see the SHILLS and PERVERTS have you confused once again --- just like 911. Learn from history or you will be DOOMED to repeat it.

WHO BROKE THE LEVEE INTENTIONALLY BY RAMMING IT WITH GRAIN BARGES ???

THE FACTS:

#1 The LEVEE was under the operation and control (via the corruption of local LEVEE boards) of ZIONIST gambling interests. RESEARCH IT TO GET ENLIGHTENED.

#2 FIVE SHOT DEAD IN NEW ORLEANS were DEPT OF DEFENSE workers investigating the INTENTIONAL LEVEE BREAK, according to AP.

#3 Intentionally breaking the 17th street levee flooded 80% of the city and caused the CHAOS --- the LEVEE was intentionally broken after the storm had passed. The storm was only CAT 2 strength when it passed over the city (according to the hurricane center it had MAX winds of 100 MPH when it passed over the city --- weaker than BETSY which resulted in 75 deaths).

#3A This is the reason why the response was INTENTIONALLY SLOW --- few or no witnesses to the INTENTIONAL BREAKING OF THE LEVEE.

#4 There is nothing "natural" or "predictable" when a LEVEE IS INTENTIONALLY BROKEN.

#5 ZIONISTS are ANTI 1st amendment and ANTI 2nd amendment and they are also ANTI AMERICAN, as evidenced by their own actions and speech.

#6 The child raping, robbing, and murdering JUDEO MASONICS / ZIONISTS are NOT religious --- they hide under the guise of RELIGION to fool you. Ever hear of wolves in sheeps clothing?

#7 The #1 terrorist / spy organization in the USA continues to operate openly in Washington DC — its called AIPAC. ADL is a close second, as evidenced by the ARRESTS of those with ties to these organizations --- FRANKLIN, ROSEN, WEISSMAN.

#8 A squad / commission should be immediately established to find the agents / traitors responsible for destroying the LEVEE.

#9 These types of squads for TRAITORS are commonly referred to as FIRING SQUADS.

#10 Why were they putting the names of the LOST people on sticky notes??? It sickened me when I saw that. They should have had hundreds of techs with computers entering the names in databases.

#10A Where has all the LOOTED homeland security billions gone??? It has paid for sticky notes apparently and has been LOOTED by zionist TRAITORS and cronies. Not surprisingly, “HOMELAND SECURITY” is run by a dual US-ISRAELI citizen.

#11 ALL PEOPLE ARE EQUAL --- do not forget this. This even includes silly twisty slimey PERVERTED shills like FREEDOM FAN. It was a CAT 2 stength (see #3 above) when it passed over the city --- NOT a CAT 5.

"no one censors speech they agree with"

#67 do you always ask and answer your own questions? I just asked for clarification of the statement you wrote...sorry it went over your head.

#64 - FF said --- "Sorry if some of my questions were the "wrong" questions. Feel free to ignore any which you are uncomfortable answering"

Rather amusing that there is no mention of the questions I did reply to or of my replies. Now, who is afraid of the questions? Ignorance is not a small matter when discussing subjects, do you think? Or are you strictly faith-based?

I was quite specific on why Republicans are sometimes considered bigots.

Your fantasy about Saddam Hussein was, as WP points out, so incredibly ignorant and fantastical that it difficult to even know where to start. Jeez, I don't want to do all your research and thinking for you. As I pointed out, of the general question "Is war ever justified?", I can imagine when it might be, but so what?

About the "Islamists", I said that, yes, I believe our blind and arrogant empire-building is the root cause.

Socialism? Yours is a trick question, I think. I believe you would say socialized medicine, national health coverage, guranteed unemployment insurance, etc. would be socialism. In that case, yes, there are certainly a number of successful examples. You are aware of this, right?

When does life begin? I think life is continuous. You, of course, are asking about abortion. I suspect I am much more opposed to abortion than most of the posters here, but I believe the old metaphor of expulsion from Paradise and the necessity if scratching and tilling a living - however poor - from the earth is profound and true symbolically for our condition - and it means that we have to face the fact of a hard, difficult, and often ambiguous world in which things like abortion are sometimes necessary.

Is life sacred? Yes, if sacred has any meaning. For this reason - killing the earth is our primary crime. In second place is hypocrisy, not far from the top. Hypocrisy allows us to disassociate whole life from our actions and is the primary agency of the crime of disregarding life, usually for selfish purposes - which is sacriledge, of course, if we agree that life is sacred. (True life can only be whole - which means community, dignity, culture - even enchantment - a numinous appreciation of life - the destruction of which by rampant commodification and colonization of every element of life by amoral bottom-line greed in its most advanced and destructive form as corportization is the deciding factor in world views, making liberalism and conservatism, as you are speaking of them, entirely inadequate. --- Excuse me for my baroque style. It may be complex and involved, but it's mine!)

Did I miss anything? Oh yes, "Who is primarily responsible for a person's happiness and welfare?" Of course, the answer is just what you would think. Every individual is. Primarily. The dynamic between individuals and their culture, however, is a what makes a human life. People are not commodities. Please read a grandfather of conservatism, Edmund Burke, to get a good idea of the role of culture and to see how far current so-called conservatism has degraded into an apology for individual greed and into the antithesis of life and responsibility.

I'm sure I've missed something here, but it doesn't matter.

You are entirely wrong about me. I fully admit that my worldview will never be complete or entirely satisfying. But the reason for this is honesty, not dishonesty. I have struggled against surety my whole life and would be very uneasy if I found myself becoming very satisfied. Nevertheless, moral relativism is not a part of my existence at all, and all indications, if you would take the time to educate yourself - which, unfortunately, your comments indicate you haven't - point to those who ostentatiously call themselves "conservatives" these days as the moral idiots of the world.

I hope you really do see the point of Lincoln's unease to the point of despair regarding corporations - don't take it from me, take it from Lincoln.

#70 and #73 - There are gag orders on everyone involved. Anyone who knows about actions taken in violation of constitutional rights, under provisions of the "PATRIOT" Act , is prevented from divulging that information.

The "PATRIOT" Act makes a mockery of the Bill of Rights.

The real looters have yet to decend. Media focus will soon fade on Katrina and the region. The rest of America will move on to another topic. That's when the power looters will move in. Pubic officials and power brokers, especially in the region hit by the storm will position themselves to reap the greatest share of the hand-outs and maintain their position of power over the poor whom they abandoned. I base this on three hundred years of a plantaion mentality and eploitation of the poor and under class in the south. Few, if any officials will be fired.

ALERT !!!

In a sick twist of events --- the revised track for Hurricane Ophelia is now on a direct course for Charleston, SC.

For those of you new to these sick ZIONIST mind gamers --- there was a nuclear terror drill in Charleston, SC just last month.

A 4 star general involved in this drill was removed from his post. Relieving a 4 star general from duty is a very unusual event in our nations history.

This is very early in WW3 --- this early phase is a WAR FOR YOUR MINDS. Most people have clearly LOST IT already.

Those who think this is going to far – have no idea of the heartless, gutless, ruthless psycho-warfare propagandists we should be fighting.

RESEARCH THIS ON YOUR OWN --- actually spend some time if you care.

Excerpts from WSJ article published Sept 7, 2005:

"Just months before Hurricane Katrina hit, Judah Hertz made a big bet on New Orleans real estate."

"The president of Hertz Investment Group, a Santa Monica, Calif., real-estate firm, bought one downtown office tower in May for $45 million and another in July for $49 million, making him the city's largest owner of high-quality office buildings. The two deals culminated a three-year buying spree in which he snapped up roughly $200 million worth of commercial real estate in New Orleans..."

"He says insurance will cover the repairs and he's hired a restoration team that has begun assessing the damage and planning renovations."

"Call him the Larry Silverstein of New Orleans. A New York real-estate developer, Mr. Silverstein famously signed a 99-year lease on the office buildings at the World Trade Center just weeks before the 9/11 attacks four years ago. Even though Mr. Silverstein received billions of dollars in insurance payments, the conflicting demands of the site have made rebuilding a struggle."

Link to full article:

http://online.wsj.com/pu...bQo8Dhc_20060907,00.html

Google: "Judah Hertz" if the link above does not work.

#73 Winter Patriot
Most TRUE CONSERVATIVES are aware of the dangerous precedents established in the last four years, and are extremely upset about it. For one example, see Freedoms Lost Under George W. Bush by Chuck Baldwin

You are correct. Conservatives love their country, but distrust their government. We are wary of any laws such as the Patriot Act or RICO which could jeopardize individual freedoms. Just because no abuse has occurred, doesn't mean that no abuse can occur. I understand there are some safeguards in place, but am uncomfortable with the long extensions of its sunset provisions. Unfortunately, I am not familiar enough about the Patriot Act to be able to discuss it at this time. Stay vigilant.

ALL PEOPLE ARE EQUAL --- do not forget this. This even includes silly twisty slimey PERVERTED shills like FREEDOM FAN. It was a CAT 2 stength (see #3 above) when it passed over the city --- NOT a CAT 5...
-Able Daddie

Thank you. We all enjoy reading the same lies you continually cut and paste. Maybe you believe that you can sell them through repetition, if not by providing any actual links to reliable sources.

What exactly is the point of your post #80? That two different people with Jewish sounding names had the misfortune of buying big chunks of real estate before two different disasters? What does that prove? Did they over-insure their properties and make big profits? Well no. Does it prove that the "Zionists" conspired to create disasters of Biblical proportions just so they could make a buck? Well no. Does anyone on the planet, outside of a couple hate-infested pockets in the Middle East, believe your looney tripe? Well no.

Just what is a Zionist?

Zionists are those who maintain that the Jewish people are entitled to a national homeland in the land of Zion, their ancestral homeland from which they were forcibly removed with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman Empire in the year 70. The state of Israel was established by the U.N. in 1948.
-excerpted from Wikipedia

For the record, I have no Jewish ancestry, but I am proud to be a "Zionist".

Why don't you just admit that you want to see the Israelis pushed into the sea by force? Why don't you just admit that you think that Palestinian suicide bombers who blow up innocent men, women, and children riding on a bus, are justified in their bloodthirsty methods. Why don't you just admit that Israel's magnanimous gesture of leaving Gaza won't change a thing with you people?

Why don't you be a man, and just admit that you despise Jews? Why else would possibly be so quick to embrace flimsy conspiracy theories involving evil Jews?

Are you an Islamist? Are you a white supremist?

I am honored that you consider me your enemy. I am also honored to be the only one on this blog who has called you on your disgusting beliefs. Hopefully my Liberal opponents will continue to wink at hateful people like you. Conservatives sure as hell can recognize pure evil when they smell it.

Winter Patriot and Arry:

Thank you for taking your time to thoughtfully debate the questions I posed. Allow me to elaborate.

The essence of humanity is free will. In other words the ability, to make a decision, is the primary characteristic which distinguishes a human from the rest of creation. Furthermore each person has a world view which is essentially a projection of the way he views himself. Thus an ideological world view is continuum representing the degree to which an individual is free to make decisions. It follows that a world view which maximizes a person’s ability to make decisions would be the ultimate in allowing a person to realize his full potential as a human. This world view is known as Conservatism.

I submit that Conservatism has these corollaries:

• Each adult of sound mind is primarily responsible for his own happiness and welfare. Accepting personal responsibility is the most important principle of all because it underlies most of the other principles. Before accepting personal responsibility, a person must rely upon decisions of others to achieve happiness, as does a child. When a person accepts responsibility for his actions he stops blaming others for his failures; he enters life as an adult; he is empowered to achieve success.

At that moment, he stops seeing the therapist who encourages him to blame his parents for his deficiencies. He rejects the “legal lottery system” which encourages him to bring bogus lawsuits against fast food chains blaming them for forcing him to be fat or allowing him to drop hot coffee on his crotch. When a person accepts responsibility for his actions he stops seeing the President and other authority figures as his surrogate parents, who are primarily responsible for taking care of him.

• Success in a person’s life can be measured in terms of the degree to which a person achieves goals he sets for himself. Therefore, a person must set goals in order to become successful.

• Freedom is paramount. Economic, social, religious, political, and all other freedom is precious because it provides a framework which allows an individual to make decisions. Some folks believe freedom is free—like air. It’s not; it is a fragile candle flame flickering in a world filled with hostile tyrants. That’s why Conservatives honor patriots with the nobility and compassion to lay down their very lives when necessary to defend the right of their friends to enjoy freedom and safety. Eternal vigilance against tyranny is the price of maintaining freedom.

• Making good decisions requires rigorous thought and access to accurate information. Accurate information is also known as “facts” or “truth”. Truth is a constant which exists independently from a person’s perception. An honest, thoughtful person continually strives to grasp the truth and maintains a healthy skepticism toward unsubstantiated information.

Information which is in conflict with other facts must be resolved in order to be useful. Individuals who do not value truth are purposefully deceitful, intellectually lazy, consumed by emotion, or insane. Such individuals are often guilty of lies, hypocrisy, and spreading ridiculous conspiracy theories and rumors. These individuals relish their ability to hold and act upon inconsistent ideas. They sometimes become dishonest lawyers, politicians, or sociopaths who embrace deceit as a sophisticated art form. They are experts at mentally “compartmentalizing” such conflicting beliefs. They are adept at rationalizing any whim using an ever changing moral relativist philosophy. They often maintain an air of superiority with meaningless explanations like Emerson’s “consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds”.

• A person’s freedom should be restricted only to the extent that it interferes with another person’s freedom. Your freedom ends where my nose begins.

• A person starts life as an innocent blank slate. A healthy society is one which provides the best opportunities for a child to grow into a productive adult. The demise of the intact family has led to a plethora of social problems, arising from confusion and disillusionment which children experience when deprived of this stability. A stable two parent family provides the best foundation for raising a child. This is the main reason that marriage has been held in such high esteem for millennia and remains the cornerstone of a healthy society.

• When did your life begin? Technically this is unknowable by mere mortals. Religious scripture suggests that a person’s soul exists even before conception. But let’s start with what we know about the development of a human’s body. We can agree that a person becomes human at sometime between and including conception and birth. Many people believe that conception marks the beginning of life. This is probably the most logical conclusion because it is a discrete event at which moment all the genetic instructions are in place to produce a human being. However, only the mother, and whomever she cares to share the information, is aware of her pregnancy in its early stages. Furthermore, many people reject that, regardless of morality, the government has any role to play in regulating the early stages of pregnancy. But how about when the fetus becomes viable? I have friends who, as a couple, gave birth to fraternal twins-a boy and a girl-slightly before the third trimester of pregnancy. Today the twins are in first grade. I think that society is correct in restricting the ability of doctors to destroy an infant in the course of a premature third trimester delivery.

True this is a controversial topic, but it is far from irrelevant. Today the U.S. Senate is torn apart in debate over nominations to the judiciary. The reputations of good people are smeared; and it all stems from the debate on abortion. Is this the way it is supposed to be? Is this what we can expect in 25 years? 50? 100? This issue was supposed to have been resolved by the Roe v. Wade decision in 1973, but we continue to fight about it. Personally I think this decision was a fairly good compromise. However, in so ruling, the Supreme Court exceeded its duty to uphold the U.S. Constitution, which obviously is silent with regard to abortion or even the right to privacy. Furthermore the court violated the 10th amendment which stipulates that powers not delegated to the federal government by the Constitution are reserved to the states or to the people.

We need to respect the Constitution by amending it to include a provision addressing abortion. But before we do this must be willing to discuss it and reach a national consensus with regard to the question of when life begins. We need to stop calling each other bad names, respect each other, and reach a workable solution. If we believe in individual responsibility, we should remove this burden from our court system and put it back into the hands of the people where it belongs.

• Superficial characteristics such as race and gender are irrelevant to most discussions about human potential. Society should recognize and deal with each person as an individual and not as a member of some arbitrary group.

• People are fundamentally good. However, a person consistently will do what ever is in his best interests. These two concepts are in harmony provided a person embraces the golden rule as taught by most religions. Greed is defined as wanting something for nothing; greed cannot be determined merely by observing a person’s accumulation of wealth. In other words, a person deserves to have anything he wants in life, as long as he is willing to exchange it for something of equal or greater value. The ultimate greedy person is a criminal who steals what he wants from another person.

• Capitalism, which is more descriptively termed “Free Enterprise”, is the economic system most consistent with the fundamental nature of humanity. It affords the most choices, is the most responsive to changing human needs, is the most efficient--has the least administrative baggage, and is best able to harness human productivity by providing a system of incentives which balance risk with reward. In a Free Enterprise system, wealth is freely created because each willing party to a transaction benefits. Free Enterprise is in harmony with the natural forces of supply and demand.

• Socialism, in its various forms and euphemisms, represents the removal of economic choices from the domain of the individual. Because it is inconsistent with human nature, generally socialism must be implemented through force, thereby reducing personal as well as economic freedoms. Socialism is basically an attempt to shift ever more wealth and power into the jurisdiction of a centrally planned government at the expense of individual freedom. As a consequence less wealth is created and each person has less ability to realize his full potential.

Socialists see wealth as a static pie to be redistributed among constituents. Therefore they discourage incentives for producers to create additional wealth, and society becomes poorer overall as a result. Many Socialists contend that they just want to provide for this one very good cause du jour. In reality most Socialists never met a higher tax they didn’t embrace, never met a government program too ambitious, and are unwilling to answer a simple question: What is the maximum proportion of taxation, as a percentage of income, which is fair for the government to take? At this moment, I am discouraged that neither Republicans nor Democrats are willing to curtail rampant government spending until the economy begins to suffer.

• Government is valuable to the extent it builds a safe environment which supports freedom and affords an individual the opportunity to reach his full potential. The most important function of government is to provide a national defense to protect its citizens from international threats. Other valid functions of government are to provide a police force, fire fighting, coordinate the building of roads and other common infrastructure, and other functions which are impractical to be provided by the private sector.

However, most human needs are best met by the private sector. Why? If the government fails, how do you know? You don’t; standards to measure success are avoided at all cost. If the government fails to efficiently provide goods and services can it go out of business? No usually it raises taxes which you are forced to pay. If the government saves money do taxpayers receive a refund or are efficient government employees rewarded? Don’t be ridiculous; at the end of the year government frantically strives to spend any unused funds, so that its budget will not be cut the following year. There are government programs still in place to solve problems which haven’t existed for decades. Government waste is notorious. Government programs are not consistently scrutinized by independent audits.

Inefficiency is not a just a characteristic of the U.S. government, which is probably one of the more efficient governments; it is a characteristic of all government. And the farther government gets from the people who pay taxes, the less responsive it becomes; so local government is preferable to federal government.

The private sector will almost always be more efficient in providing goods and services because it has measurable goals and it must survive. It must be accountable to its shareholders; it must provide superior products at lower costs, or it will be driven out of business by its competitors. What happened to Enron when it became corrupt? How about Enron’s partner Arthur Andersen, once the world’s largest auditor?

• Unlike Libertarians, Conservatives also believe that providing a social safety net is an important function of government. Government should guarantee a minimum level of subsistence for all its citizens. However, the state of being poor or disadvantaged should be viewed as a result of temporary circumstances. Each person, regardless of current social status or background or temporary setbacks, has the potential to become a productive, happy, fulfilled member of society, and is capable of achieving success. It is government’s function to ensure equality of opportunity not attempt to achieve equality of results.

• Individuals can be compassionate; government cannot. Charity is best provided by individuals not government. Individual and faith-based charity is consistent with human nature because it harnesses the euphoria experienced when a person selflessly gives of himself to assist those less fortunate. Try this test: Write a check for Katrina disaster relief large enough that it takes your breath away. Volunteer to personally assist disaster relief victims. How do you feel? Now write a large check to pay for your income taxes on April 15th. Then tally up how much of your salary you get to control after paying federal, state and local income taxes, gas taxes, excise taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, etc. Then consider how much of your taxes will actually reach people for whom you are grieving. Realize that much of your tax dollar will pay for bureaucrats’ generous salaries, benefits and pensions, and be otherwise wasted to buy votes.

Thank you for taking the time to read my thoughts on Conservative v. Liberal world views.

Silly twisty PERVERTED "Freedom Fan",

I particularly like your twisty use of the word "misfortune". You are INDEED just another PRETENDER.

I already defined "Zionist" for you in my posts above --- no need to add your perverted definition of it. SInce you are demonstrating your inability to read I will re post it below (Refer to #5 and #6):

#5 ZIONISTS are ANTI 1st amendment and ANTI 2nd amendment and they are also ANTI AMERICAN, as evidenced by their own actions and speech.

#6 The child raping, robbing, and murdering JUDEO MASONICS / ZIONISTS are NOT religious --- they hide under the guise of RELIGION to fool you. Ever hear of wolves in sheeps clothing?

All the race and class baiting by the ZION media whores and ancillary perverts and shills (many of whom post on these blogs) is done INTENTIONALLY to DISTRACT you. A classic three card monty or sleight of hand.

This ensures the finger is never pointed where it belongs --- at the actual WHOS / CULPRITS responsible for the INTENTIONAL LEVEE BREAK.

It is ALWAYS the WHO that is obfuscated. KEEP YOUR EYE ON THE BALL !!!

WHO BROKE THE LEVEE INTENTIONALLY???

The IN PLAIN SIGHT audacity of the use of a FAKE and CONTRIVED name like JUDAH HERTZ ("JEWS HURT") is a further piece of the MOUNTING EVIDENCE.

These shills often change their real names. Many of your elected representatives DO THIS to be more appealing to you --- see #6 in my post above. Ever hear of wolves in sheeps clothing?

ALL PEOPLE ARE EQUAL --- this even includes silly twisty PERVERTED shills like Freedom Fan.

Code name: OPHELIA

1) Two catastrophic events in the USA in a six month period (New Orleans + TBD).

2) Country to be divided into four districts under military control.

3) THERE ARE ALREADY 18 STATES UNDER STATES OF EMERGENCY --- undprecedented !!!

4) FOREIGN TROOPS ON US SOIL FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE THE MID 1800's !!!

5) The ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCES will be sent here: 1 million of them to keep order, since the US TROOPS are busy doing their bidding in IRAQ.

WAKE UP !!!!!!!!!!

Thank you Freedom Fan for an interesting posting in response to Winter and myself. Honestly, I believe it would be worthwhile to analyze and debate each of your points. Of course, I agree with a number of them, but believe I see them from a different angle than you do and think there are some major elements that are missing.

Unfortunately, my time is very limited, so I can't get into it as I would like and that it deserves.

Just a few general observations.

--- The terms "conservative" and "liberal" are not clear-cut. Some of your points would be part of a definition of a liberal as they developed in the early days of capitalism. Private sector, small government, individual liberty, etc. Adam Smith was a liberal of his day (or progenitor of liberalism, not a libertarian, by the way.)

--- Big government, social engineering - what should we call that? I'm not really sure, but it has little to do with the original definition of liberal.

--- Please don't assume we are all "big government" people here. One of the primary aspects of my political views is "decentralization". I think it is vital for a number of reasons - e.g. individual freedom and democracy are more easily achievable and sustained in a decentralized condition, and I believe it is the only way we will be able to survive and prosper as humans in the coming years of scarcity. (There is much more to this, but I could go on for paragraphs!)

--- When capitalist enterprises consolidate past a certain point, there is no point in calling it capitalism - although "monopoly capitalism" might do. When, in addition, they become one with a nominal republican form of government- as they have done - it is no longer a republic. I believe we have reached that point. In fact, the neocon vision is very near to that of a Stalinist vision. We are all swamped in and defending old definitions as our nation is destroyed - and we kind of know it. That may partially account for the extreme feelings in today's politics.

--- I believe there is plenty of blame for diversion from the vital issues to be placed on both Republicans and Democrats. The "statesmen" and "stateswomen" of the coming years will be those who break through conventional politics - which has become so hardened and enclosed that it will be a near-revolutionary act to do so. (Of course, I am not talking about violent revolution.)

--- The corporate/government/media has become a ruling class with its own rules and obsession with consolidating and promoting its power. It is the responsibility of citizens to reinstitute representative democracy. As always, the ultimate care of the republic is in the hands of the people, something we are frighteningly and joyfully (I hope) rediscovering.

--- As a "conservative", please break through the hypocrisy - through lots of research and moral vision - of the Bush administration and those who make a policy of lying and stealing our liberties. Join us in defending and reinstituting a republic. (Remember, you don't have to convince me or many others of the iniquity of the Democrats. I'm well aware of it.) This is not a liberal cause. It is a moral cause. (I know I'm jumping the gun, but what the heck.)

--- A few of quotations from Russell Kirk's "The Conservative Mind", generally considered a classic of conservatism.

"...the folk called "conservative" join in resistance to the destruction of old patterns of life, damage to the footings of the civic social order, and reduction of human striving to material production and consumption."

"To general principles in politics - as distinguished from fanatic ideological dogmata - the conservative subscribes." (We believe neoconservatives are fanatics.)

"...Burke (philosopher and early leader of conservatism), could he see our century, would never concede that a consumption-society, so near to suicide, is the end for which Providence has prepared man."

"All his life, Burke's chief concern had been for justice and liberty, which must stand or fall together." --- What this statement says, I believe, is central to the thinking of almost everyone who posts on and reads Brad Blog and is the basis for our activism.

--- One more thing --- along the lines of my own thinking. There is a very interesting book entitled "The True and Only Heaven - Progress and It's Critics" by Christopher Lasch. It should be on the list to read of everyone who is interested in sustaining a prosperous (not wealthy) and moral culture into the future. Lasch is of the opinion, and I agree, that there have been two lines of thought that have evolved in parallel. One focuses on "progress" without limits exemplified by both Smithian capitalism and Marxism. Even big government "liberalism" - if you want to call it that - is part of it. This idea of progress keeps society in perpetual redefinition and turmoil and splinters the psyche and clouds moral vision.

The other line of thinking hasn't had much long-term success politically, and its role has been mainly that of criticizing of the idea of "progress". Some examples of this tradition are republicanism and civic humanism; populism or "proprietary democracy"; religious thought focusing on "virtue" - which, in general, believes unlimited progress is "ingratitude" to God and smothers the sense of wonder and of the noble tragedy of existence; non-Marxist syndicalism (partially); and so on. I believe it would be wise for those who wish to participate in forming a post fossil fuel-based society, and one that will sustain itself for centuries, to study this alternate tradition in all its permutations because its time has come after centuries as the "opposition".

Interesting that I should pull out Lasch today and see "...sham conservatism...merely santions the unbridled pursuit of worldly success." And "Ritual deference to "traditional values" cannot hide the right's commitment to progress, unlimited economic growth, and acquisitive individualism." So, what you do with your freedom is important, too.

So, forget "conservatism" and "liberalism", IMO. (Although we should certainly extract what fine nutrients we can from them.) I think you may be able to see why I am neither, as they are both of the predominant tradition which I believe is now toxic to the earth, to liberty, and to morality.

My opinion anyway.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

...So, forget "conservatism" and "liberalism"...
-ARRY

Technically "Conservative" means to save or retain the status quo, whereas "Liberal" means advocating change. But if you attempt to apply these terms historically or move the context into a different country, and you get confused because the "status quo" shifted. Then you start talking about such things as today's Conservative being a traditional Liberal, or hitler being a conservative, and other similar mindless babble-speak.

So the terms have meaning only with regard to the current status quo in the U.S. and certain other Western countries. In this context, Conservative means advocating free enterprise and traditional moral values. It doesn't mean Conservatives don't want change. On the contrary, most of the new ideas and proposals in the U.S. are the work of Conservatives. Conservatives want to change and improve; we just want to retain the good stuff, such as free enterprise which works far better than any other economic system which has ever been tried.

Furthermore, the size of a particular business entity does not necessarily mean that it cannot innovate and can afford become complacent. The key to a successful market is the presence of competition; and it only takes two to compete. Typically far more competitors exist in a global economy. In addition, new competitors automatically spring up to take advantage of existing inefficiencies and needs which fail to be addressed by existing players. Old Europe has stifled competition by discouraging new players, forcing permanent employment, and tilting the game in favor of the existing big corporations. In a global economy, this only hurts their own consumers and their own economies as we now witness.

I see you are an avid reader. Try the Wall Street Journal especially the opinion page, now available for free online. I have read it almost every day for 30 years. Unlike the rest of the MSM, they are fastidious about uncovering truth and maintaining accuracy. I have rarely seen them make so much as a typo.

Ciao.

Oh, well...:)

#11 ALL PEOPLE ARE EQUAL --- do not forget this.

Now moving to more nefarious matters.

An example of a shill is ADAM PEARLMAN.

Today, a tape claiming to be from Al Queada (al queada is actually a BS front --- the fake enemy who was false flagged by the ZIONISTS via 911).

This tape is using the same phoney freak they used about a year ago, another name changer actually named ADAM PEARLMAN (referred to in the tape as ADAM GADAHN).

Diligent reporters already exposed this guy as a practicing jew from southern california last time he put a tape out AND they continue to try to FOOL us with the same old BS.

Bloggers should do a serious expose (as they did last time this freak came out) on this ADAM PEARLMAN (aka GADAHN) character ASAP.

Someone should also do a blog on the NON COINCIDENTAL LINKS between Lewinsky, Levy, Cippel, and the school shooters (jonesboro, columbine, red lake).

Quotes from newspapers the last time this beast popped up:

"born to parents of Jewish heritage"

"Adam was a very typical teenager," said his aunt, Nancy Pearlman. "There's no story about his upbringing." Pearlman said the family is declining to comment further.

READ MY FULL POSTS ABOVE FOR CLARITY AND IGNORE THE SHILLS