The liars and hucksters of the “American Center for Voting Rights” are at it again.
As those who remember our series exposing this phony Republican front-group will recall, the ACVR calls themselves a “non-partisan” group and claims a tax-exempt status in exchange for it.
They are, however, comprised of two key high-level GOP operatives: Mark F. “Thor” Hearne, the General Counsel for Bush/Cheney ’04, Inc., and Jim Dyke, the Communications Director for the RNC.
ACVR has yet to produce their legal 501(c)3 paperwork — which allows them tax-exempt status — to us as they had promised, and when Thor Hearne testified at a Congressional hearing just three days after the creation of his phony organization in March, he identified himself only as a “long time voting rights advocate”. Apparently he forgot to mention his or Dyke’s direct connection with Bush/Cheney and the RNC.
In response to today’s long-await report, “Democracy at Risk: The 2004 Election in Ohio”, from the DNC on the problems, including massive voter disenfranchisement and other chicanery in Ohio during the 2004 Presidential Election, the ACVR has just released another smokescreen in favor of Voter Disenfranchisement, this time in the form of a Press Release in response to the DNC report.
Get a load (and we do mean load) of this:
It must be made clear that these guys are snake-oil salesman of the highest order. Note how they disingenously make the point to appear as if they are in general agreement with the DNC report, but quickly slide the focus elsewhere, away from Ohio where the disenfranchisement and electoral chicanery was at maximum impact courtesy of a crooked Secretary of State and Ohio Bush/Cheney Co-Chair (both in the name of J. Kenneth Blackwell). In Ohio, Blackwell still refuses any real investigations of the machinery or of the criminal allegations.
From there, the press release slithers predictably over to the notion of voter fraud which, by our count, has resulted in two — that’s two — cases in the entire state of Ohio of anyone fraudulently casting a vote last November. Contrast that to the thousands of documented cases of provisional ballots discarded, electronic votes flipped from Kerry to Bush, hours-long lines and too few machines in Democratic precincts only, and legitimate voters surprised to find they’d been purged entirely from the voting rolls.
(CORRECTION: It was not two cases of voter fraud in the state of Ohio as we originally suggested above. We’ve found the information we had recalled, but couldn’t find at the time we filed this report originally. According to a June 15, 2005 story headlined “Rampant Voter Fraud a Myth” from Cleveland Plain Dealer, the actual number of fraudulent votes in the state of Ohio was not two. It was four. The article begins: “Of 9,078,728 votes cast in Ohio in 2002 and 2004, only four were fraudulent, according to a new review by a pair of voter advocacy groups.” The BRAD BLOG regrets the error.)
Nonetheless, as these operatives move to encourage the enactment of Voter ID laws which will disproportionately disenfranchise millions of minority, elderly and urban Americans (read: Democratic voters), through backchannel political manipulation, they continue to misrepresent their phony “non-partisan” creds. More from Dyke’s release…
In this 40th Anniversary year of the Voting Rights Act, there are few Americans as despicable as those who use the cynical veneer of presenting themselves as “Voting Rights Advocates” when they are anything but. The are, in fact, the complete antithesis of those brave advocates and activists who have given so much — including their lives — in the fight for a right to vote in America. Not to mention those Americans who have been sent to fight and die right now around the globe under the premise of “spreading democracy” by the paymasters of Hearne and Dyke of the ACVR.
The ACVR clearly has both the money and political pull, however, to make great strides in this area. Real Voting Rights groups were not called as witnesses by Rep. Bob Ney’s (R-OH) trumped up Congressional Hearing on the Ohio Irregularities, but Hearne was. That, just three days after his organization appeared on the World Wide Web with a snailmail address at a P.O. Box in a UPS Mailbox Etc. store in Houston, TX, which nobody for the organization has yet to claim as their own. (Hearne is from St. Louis, MO, Dyke now lives in North Carolina).
As well, the cooked Baker/Carter Commission on Election Reform — headed appallingly by Bush Family crony, James Baker, who successfully ensured that American citizens would not be allowed to have their votes counted in 2000 — has Thor Hearne sitting as a member of their “Advisory Panel”. No real Voting Rights groups have been invited to sit on that commission or its advisory panel.
It pays to have unscrupulous friends in high places.
And, just in case you have any further questions about the sort of unrepentant, un-American, opportunistic phonies these guys really are, take a look at this short video clip — from ACVR’s own website — of Hearne testifying to Ney’s committee last March wherein he avers that it was John Kerry’s team that systematically attempted to misinform voters about when Election Day actually was.
Perhaps this is one of the letters (courtesy of FreePress.org’s book “Did George W. Bush Steal America’s 2004 Election: Essential Documents”) that Hearne suggests, in his video testimony, that the Kerry campaign was sending out to trick voters into not voting:
These guys — both the sort who would send the letter above and those who make up the ACVR — are vermin. And it all serves as a good reminder of why it’s so important to continue everything that we’re doing here. There is a special place in hell waiting for these creeps. May God save America from cretins like these.
For more information on the “non-partisan” tax-exempt ACVR scam and the snakeoil salesmen who invented it, Bush/Cheney ’04 National General Counsel Mark F. “Thor” Hearne and RNC Communications Director Jim Dyke, please see BRAD BLOG’s full Special Coverage of the “American Center for Voting Rights” at https://BradBlog.com/ACVR.
I feel sick.
omg, this is heartbreaking to read. If these thugs get away with this we’ll know things have deteriorated further than we’ve imagined…
Haven’t been able to post all eve so don’t know if this’ll work, but thank you Brad! This is a most excellent piece!
Good job, Brad. This is another great post!
Yes it’s bad news but it’s better for the truth to come out.
I think 6 or 7 people should push the heck out of this story.
But then what do I know?
Thank you Brad fora ll your hard work. These people are purely sick. I read some of Dean’s release of the Ohio stuff and this helps me explain why he didn’t mention the "f" word. He knows it wouldn’t be crediable to get rid of the machine’s and would make us all look like "consperiacy theorists" because this rightwing group has the political allies and the media on their side. Nobody likes "consperiacy theorists". Keep up the good work Brad.
ick, ick, double- and quadruple-ick.
please continue to spread the truth far and wide about these crooks, so that their lies never go unchallenged — in print, in person, or in any kind of media, now or yet to be created, in perpetuity throughout the universe.
OT – Anybody else having trouble posting here?
I KNEW that last letter to Bill Frist was going to get me into hot water. My posts are being disappeared!!
(And if it works this time – nevermind 🙂
Great work Brad. Expose these creeps for the criminals they are. One can only hope that people like this will be undone by their own incompetence.
OK guys, grim news means let’s get moving. Here’s the newest from The Whispering Campaign:
We now offer a few single-page [larger-font] messages:
Ten Good Reasons To Impeach George W. Bush
Ten Amazing Facts About Voting In The USA
We also offer these new two-page messages:
What The Downing Street Memo Really Means from Media Matters
Unleashing The Resistance by Karen Kwiatkowski
Why do the democrats show up to the game at half time? Watch California there next. The Arnold special election had one purpose . DIEBOLD machinery. Next we’ll be hearing that the Mexican vote went to the republicans and they took California.We all know John Kerry won Ohio. They have taken over all civic positions inside the individual states.They have done there work wether it is redistricting or buying the voting machine companies. I fear it has gotten so corrupt that there is no quick fix.This bothers me all the time. Until we have masses of people on board there will be no change. The media simply insults our intelligence levels. We need another deep throat.
Please excuse the OT post.
Sibel Edmonds – An Appeal to the Internet Community
By W. David Jenkins III
There has been much activity on the Internet the last few weeks regarding the Downing Street Minutes — and rightfully so. Documentation proving the Bush administration manufactured intelligence in order to invade Iraq should be on the front page of every newspaper and should be the lead story on every newscast – but we all know how things work (or don’t work) these days. However, the strength and determination of the Internet Community has managed to keep this story from disappearing while, at the same time, applying pressure to the mainstream media.
more.
boo
#11… "we need another deep throat"…
In some ways we have "deep throat’s" already.
The problem is that the media is now so controlled and fearful of the Whitehouse that it won’t report what the whistleblowers are telling them. The mainstream media are pathetic.
EVERYTHING is getting whitewashed… or… they just refuse to answer questions (like the DSMinutes).. so.. Increasingly, it looks like a full-blown revolution is the only way to turn them over. (I hope we do see some decent election reform… but I don’t think the Repugs are even going to allow a debate to happen without polluting it thanks to shitheads like ACVR.)
They just take the piss, constantly.
In fact… considering how blatantly they’re screwing with people… a "LHOswald" or "JWBooth" would probably be more effective for media attention than 100 "DeepThroat’s". I sure as hell hope things don’t get that ugly.
(Before any igorant, illiterate repug’s calls me a f’ing terrorist… I’m not recommending, suggesting or inciting anyone to do that… my point is.. the media would pay attention to that sort of shit but they don’t care about piles of evidence pointing to a corrupt administration, no matter even if you had an army of whistleblowers.)
There is no effective legitimate route against those who have no respect for the law or public opinion and unfortunately… the administration has exactly those characteristics. They don’t give a damn, they’ve got money to make and power to retain, screw the consequences.
Well, I’m getting so discouraged with all the attempts at being "reaonable" and trying to "clean up the system"..
Now we have this little tidbit..
If we no longer, as citizens, can even keep our property in this country because "business" can come kick you out so the city (and the business) can make money, what’s the point of this country anymore? You no longer have freedom of the press, speach, or now, right to property.. Welcome to the new Communisim designed only to feed the super-rich.. and it’s starting in the U.S… fun..
Savantster,
Apparently you are not the only one getting angry and discouraged. So is Ms. Hunter in NC State (running for state Supreme Court Chief Justice.)
M3,
I’d prefer that they would have the decency to stand down from their brinksmanship when confronted. That’s the decent way to do things.
I am assuming there is some civility and decency left in the neo con cabal. I know some Republicans (like the Group of 14 Senators and Rep. Jones) are good people.
At least those Republicans still believe in democracy.
I would like to avoid Civil War II at all possible costs!
I got my copies of the stuff Winter Patriot is using for the whispering campaign. I’ll be leaving one of each everywhere there is a table or chair in public to put one, including at my (right wing) family’s beach house. I’ll get a folder and keep it filled.
whisper
whisper
American Revolution II starts with you.
American Revolution II
Bloodless. Don’t hurt anybody. Let the violence come from only one side.
Ghandi
ML King
The power of peace.
A core belief of ACVR (and the Baker-tainted Commission) that makes absolutely no sense, and requires a coherant explanation:
ACVR and the Baker Commission try to tell us that it’s VOTER fraud. Little or no mention of ELECTION fraud. Now the part that doesn’t make sense: Why would a VOTER be significantly more motivated than a CANDIDATE (or CANDIDATE’S ALLY) when the CANDIDATE has significanly more to gain, and is affected much more significanly?
If a CANDIDATE (or CANDIDATE’S ALLY) has much much more to gain, and is much closer to the process, how do groups like ACVR justify devoting all their concern to VOTER fraud. As a percentage of the warm exhaust comming from their flapping gums, why is such a small percentage devoted to ELECTION fraud, the real threat?
Hmmmmmm? I’m waiting, bitches.
American Revolution II
We do no violence. We use the power of peace. Like M.L. King. Like Ghandi.
and whisper
whisper
Maddening indeed. Hey Brad, no news for weeks on Clint Curtis, I watch 60 minutes faithfully every Sunday waiting for the stories, hoping against hope that it will appear. I mean I can just see Mike Wallace knocking on Feeney’s door and getting no answer. Is this story gone cold or what? I realize you have been up to lots and lots of other good stuff but this was what got me fired up at first.
Thanks, Brad, for fixing the posting problem!
As I was going to say last night but couldn’t,
"Welcome to totalitarianism and dictatorship, folks. If this complete crock is allowed equal weight and exposure with true facts of the Ohio fraud case, then truth itself is doomed to grisly death."
Sorry for being O/T for a min… but I’d like to share this posting from Mr. Keith Olbermann of MSNBC’s Countdown program. It furthers my comment #17 above. Check out his analogy to the Twilight Zone.
I guess I’m the "Peace and Love" guy today.
"Can’t we all… just… get along?" – Rodney King
re #23 Peg: I don’t believe this "complete crock" is intended to be given "equal weight and exposure with true facts of the Ohio fraud case" … I believe this "complete crock" is intended to wipe the "true facts of the Ohio fraud case" off the media map! … and therefore out of our memories … soma, anyone? or perhaps some gin? … whisper whisper whisper whisper whisper …
Apologies to those of you who may have had trouble posting comments earlier today. I believe we’ve fixed the error that caused the problem.
Excellent piece again Brad ,you fit the pieces together in such a way that the current regimes contempt for the truth and the "people" is obvious.
I thought New Zealand had the highest ratio of sheep/people but its looking like we might have a challenger from the USA now.
Winter Patriot #10 –
This is excellent! Took The Whispering Campaign post yesterday over to CCN and tried to thank you but couldn’t post. The updates, including the larger font, one page format are awesome! Thank you for making it so easy for us ALL to be the media we’ve lost!
DaveK – In re: 60 Minutes. As of now, I don’t suspect they will be reporting the story. I have been told (months ago) that various internal issues, some political, some bureacratic, would keep them from being able to cover it. For reasons of respeting confidentiality, I won’t go into any specific details on the matter. But further advancement of the story will have to occur via other sources for the time being.
There will be more chapters in the story most likely. But not necessarily from 60 Minutes unless something changes.
We’ll see what might change.
For the moment, DSM is sucking a lot of the oxygen out of the room. Can’t report anything on CC or other matters until the stories are ready to go. I don’t necessarily control that process. Just do my best to cover it as it rolls. With stories that are solid. That can take time.
I’m confused. Was the conservative side of the court actually the four who called for leaving people alone, not taking their homes? I feel something like vertigo. I mean, wasn’t it those folks who brought us this fascist fiasco in the first place. Now they go and say people can keep their homes. Who the heck on the court would be in favor of businesses turning individuals out of their homes? There aren’t any liberals who would place business interests above individuals and their homes, are there?
It’s all too surreal. I’m getting dizzy. Everything is going black. Sounds of the Stones’ Paint it Black are emanating from dark recesses of my mind. Oy.
This all makes me sick, too. Everything’s crashing all around — it is the Twilight Zone and Bizarro World. Ugh.
Mark H,
It’s odd, isn’t it. But the left /right political spectrum was established for the seating arrangement of the French National Assembly of 1789. Today it’s a bit more complex. This site may help you understand it a bit. This is a cut above the shorter political quizzes that are slanted to make everyone a right libertarian, and you may learn lots of interesting things. Wikipedia even has some very technical entries on political tests and quizzes which were first introduced by David Nolan. Political Spectrum. It helps to recall that politics makes for strange bedfellows, and if you make three right turns, you will be headed left. As far as the SCOTUS decision today, don’t pay too much attention to the way the media spins it. The SCOTUS basically voted to let the states and localities decide. And wouldn’t you know it, there is even a SCOTUSblog that may help you understand it better than the media. They make it sound worse than it is so JIMMO can get all hot and bothered.
DID ya see cheney on cnn (with wolf).
what a lying SOB
Keep up the fight guys ,its great to see cheney needing to do "damage control".
cheney said "social security reform part of the "final solution"" poor choice of words dude!
Kira and MarkH,
This ruling is not as bad as the media makes it sound. Not for progressives. Henry George may well have approved of this SCOTUS opinion. Eminent Domain has just been affirmed and expanded. The good of the many as opposed to the rights of a few. JIMMO and Buckshot hate it, so be happy for them. Think how this impacts on slumlords for the benefit of us all.
Thomas Paine (1737-1809):
Men did not make the earth… It is the value of the improvements only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property… Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds.
John Locke (1632-1704):
Whenever, in any country, the proprietor ceases to be the improver, political economy has nothing to say in defence of landed property. When the "sacredness" of property is talked of, it should be remembered that any such sacredness does not belong in the same degree to landed property.
When land is not intended to be cultivated, no good reason can in general be given for its private property at all. "Principles of Political Economy"
People in this country have got to start developing the ability to discern fact from propoganda! And groups like ACVR should be fined and or jailed, if they are passing out fradulent information.
OT – General Clark is asking for help from 6 or 7:
Democrats everywhere are bemoaning the preposterous and inflammatory remarks Karl Rove is accused of saying in response to the Senator Durbin’s remarks on Guantanamo Bay:
"Has there ever been a more revealing moment this year? Let me just put this in fairly simple terms: Al Jazeera now broadcasts the words of Senator Durbin to the Mideast, certainly putting our troops in greater danger. No more needs to be said about the motives of liberals…Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 in the attacks and prepared for war; liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers." –Karl Rove
I am so saddened by this untrue, unfair, unwise statement made by President Bush’s closest advisor. I hope you will express your sadness directly to the highest authority.
Wes Clark
throe
1. A severe pang or spasm of pain, as in childbirth. See Synonyms at pain.
2. throes A condition of agonizing struggle or trouble: a country in the throes of economic collapse.
maybe cheney was right after all
I suppose my experience with imminent domain is a bit different than most of you. When I was young my parents built a home with their own two hands. Even before it was 100% completed the state condemned it, bought it (at less than true value) and put an interstate highway through. The road went right over our house (and my grandparents) and left a small strip of land (along the creek at the bottom of the hollow) uncovered. For many years thereafter when I would drive over that road I could look down in the hollow/median and still see a large pine tree growing, a tree I used to play on as a kid in the front yard of my grandparents’ home.
So, this issue is very real to me. And, in some ways I suppose I’m conservative on the idea of a governmental authority deciding what is best for the community, but at my expense. I know the highway has been great for my state, but it hurt my famiily.
"Don’t tread on me." has real meaning, even in this mountain state.
What a heart-rending story, MarkH. When citizens work so hard and save in order to build a home then are ripped off like this, should be a crime. It is a crime – but there should be some recourse for them.
I’ve known several people who lost part of their property this way and they are never given the real value. Once the road is built closer to the home the value of the home goes down. It’s a shameful way to treat American taxpaying citizens.
No jokes about the the names of the 2 leaders of the ACVR? Thor & Dyke? Nothing? Sorry……….
How come these guys are always white guys with crosseyes, and look gay? See Jeff Gannon.
Where does the GOD…I mean GOP…come up with these guys? Incredible!
Couple questions:
1. Is the MSM discrediting the ACVR? Because if they aren’t, they’re condoning them.
2. If there’s factual statistics stating that out of over 9 million votes in Ohio, 4 votes were fraudulent, is the MSM, or anyone, following up with the ACVR as to a response to their bogus claim of voter fraud?
3. Is the ACVR breaking any laws by not providing 501(c)3 paperwork? In fact, are they breaking any other laws by posing as a longtime non-partisan voter’s rights group? If yes, why is nothing being done about it? The best and most embarrassing thing to do to these creeps is to press charges for whatever laws or rules they are breaking.
from the letter above: "Please be advised that if you were registered in this capacity that you will not be able to vote until the next election. … Please notify the Lake Country Sheriff’s office if you have any questions."
what? that’s generally how voting works. apparently you should notify the sheriff’s office though. as if they’d be able to help you with a voter registration question.
maybe we should have similar advisories for obtaining your drivers license at the DMV. "Please be advised that if you were registered by the DMV that you will not be able to drive until the next time you are in a vehicle. notify your vehicle manufacturer with any questions."
MarkH,
That’s what it comes down to, the balance of the rights and welfare of an individual or the few against the rights and welfare of the many. It’s not as simple as it sounds. There are no easy answers. If there were, politics wouldn’t be the bloodsport that it is. Eminent domain has been abused in the past. Yet it makes for interesting alliances. See the Interstate Commerce Commission. Sometimes the best intentions go afoul. The individual against the community, the individual and several states against the Federal Govt. It’s no picnic. I’d be curious to know what our learned and resident historian, Robert Lockwood Mills, has to say about this. These matters have been debated since the time of the Greeks and Romans.
It’s a tough call, but don’t let the media angle panic you. That’s my main point. Read the VOA link here.
"Kelo v. New London – A (Slight) Contrarian take
Yes, this is a bad decision, but we must think of what the alternative might have been. I don’t know what was in the hearts of the justices who ruled the way did, they may be fully on board this apparent belief in the unlimited power of eminent domain. This is not something I support. However, the alternative could’ve been a conservative written opinion severely limiting the power of eminent domain and the concept of public use, which would’ve eviscerated a truly necessary government power."
Everybody should read the Bob Fitrakis book on the 2004 election! I don’t care whether you’re liberal or conservative! Read the book! Whew!!!
If you are a republican, it is your duty to expose these sick bastards to the American people.
If you are a republican and you DO NOT kick these sick bastards out of your party immediately, then you are just as sick and guilty as they are. You are no less criminal than they are by going along.
It’s your call republicans… expect no mercy. Kick them all out NOW or be known as one of them FOREVER!
Prediction (I hope I’m wrong): The Supreme Court decision will lead to widespread bribing of local officials by speculative developers who want to put up more God-awful strip malls and office parks in the name of "creating jobs." Expect a plethora of fast-food restaurants, nail-clipping parlors, pet grooming salons, and thousands more Wal-Marts. If someone’s house gets in the way, too bad!
This is a truly atrocious decision. The faith placed in the integrity of local politicians by the Supremes is very touching…but hopelessly naive. The idea that the public interest could ever be served by a combination of bureaucrats and real estate developers is laughable, and it’s a shame that only people like Scalia and Thomas recognize this. The Republicans now have a legitimate issue for 2006 to distract voters from Iraq and the economy.
Robert,
I think you are right, (but I’m a cynic too), which is why I have always felt that party affiliation or policies have never been the problem. One word. Corruption. It is the "economic terrorism" we don’t talk about. Both parties want to get tougher on blue collar crime than white collar crime. Elliot Spitzer as Attorney General would be a good thing. I agree with your assessment about it’s becoming a distraction in the 2006 election. Just look at the spin the media is already giving it. I just wonder if the press might be a bit more agressive on the local level and in the local markets, rooting out this type of corruption. They usually are.
Attach rocks to their feet and drown them in the deepest US lake.
Right in my own backyard (Ohio/Northeast Ohio)…These mother fuckers…
Justice Stevens is a nice old man, but his opinion is proof that many of the Supremes are out of touch with what goes on in the real world. When you spend all day in a law office wearing a black robe, immune from questions from the press and not subject to criticism, I guess that’s what happens. God, what a crying shame this decision is!
Unless I misunderstood Stevens’ opinion, the crux of it is that governments can be trusted to do the right thing regarding eminent domain questions, thus everything should be left in their hands. Well, I live in Connecticut, 20 minutes from Bridgeport (whose last mayor is now in jail), 30 minutes from Waterbury (whose last TWO mayors are wearing stripes), and an hour from Hartford (our last governor is serving time). According to Stevens’ logic, these men are merely a "few bad apples" whose crimes are not part of the corrupt pattern that pervades government and business in the 21st century. That, of course, is nonsense.
In the case of eminent domain issues, to arrive at a fair decision regarding destroying someone’s house will require that REAL ESTATE DEVELOPERS AND GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS KEEP THEMSELVES AT ARMS LENGTH FROM ONE ANOTHER WHEN DECIDING WHETHER TO PUT UP A NEW SHOPPING MALL OR BUSINESS CENTER, AND FURTHER THAT PROPERTY ASSESSORS, ZONING COMMISSIONERS, LAWYERS, AND TITLE-SEARCH COMPANIES BE INDEPENDENT AND NOT SUBJECT TO BEING COMPROMISED.
Anyone who believes all of the above is plausible would be interested in the bridge I’m selling in New Mexico. Justice Stevens, please call me care of the New Mexico State Desert Property Alliance.
The ACVR is so phony, they can’t even get their name straight!
It’s "American Center OF Voting Rights" in both the "Thor" Hearn biography at his Lathrop & Gage law firm’s site, as well as in the "press release" issued when he became "general counsel" to the group, whatever its name is!
Since it’s neither "for" voting rights, nor "of" voting rights, rather for and of suppressing voting rights, we shouldn’t be too surprised that they can’t get it right.
What we should be surprised about is that American University and former President Jimmy Carter are playing along with the Baker farce.
Seems liberals and most democrats are afraid of the truth and will do whatever it takes to mislead people and obfuscate anytime. Democrats cannot win at the ballot box as has been proven for the past elections. Even liberal talk radio, ie, Air America is doomed. Al Gore’s new TV network is a failure in waiting. The record is clear which party has engaged in the greatest voter fraud. Democrats.
Whether Republican individuals are associated with the RNC is immaterial. The facts speak the truth. Democrats are in a sorry state and need to reevaluate themselves. Kick out the phonys and return to the days when Democrats were at least honest.
I thought New Zealand had the highest ratio of sheep/people but its looking like we might have a challenger from the USA now.