Somebody ...

I think we applaud USA Today. Maybe not yesterday, maybe not tomorrow, but today I think so.

They have taken the argument to the MSM within the MSM.

Yes, they are framing the Downing Street Minutes/Memo in the right framework: DID THE MSM DROP THE BALL on the DSM?

That is important, because it brings three questions into focus:

1) where the hell is the patriotic MSM? (the fifth estate that is supposed to rip the government a new your know what anytime, anywhere the government drifts toward fascism);

2) where the hell are the patriotic journalists (those who are not in bed with the government a la propaganda - but who watch and report all those who are in bed with the government).

3) why would a british intelligence agent lie to his superiors in minutes which no one disputed during the british elections where bLiar got his ass kicked?

Well ... I ask my fellow bloggers to salute, even if just for today, the gutsy MSM at USA today on this one (link here).

Brad!!!

Thanks for highlighting the work of the freeway blogger. I see it's in your links, but I hadn't paid attention until now. The site is inspiring. What a great idea for "unleashing my inner criminal"-- something that hasn't gotten a lot of attention since my Valley days of TPing yards with a gang of 6 or 7.

And, just so I don't have to ask you or FB this question on the upcoming Brad Show, where the heck is the "death highway" and the "death mile" in greater LA? (Oh, maybe that's a generic reference, and there is no specific place....) VG's been elsewhere for quite a while.

Remember this is what happened September 11.....This is connected all the way to PNAC!

http://www.prisonplanet....v/audio/091204hilton.htm

:crazy: :O :confused:

They are true criminals in every sense for orchestrating this, and for allowing election fraud.

Matt S.

This guy rules!

Has anyone noticed all the Bush Cheated '04 stickers around L.A.? I wonder who did that...

Fellow truth seeker David Lytel at left.org and redefeatbush.com was kind enough to send me a couple of those cool bumper stickers. If anyone wants one, just e-mail me.

I applaud the freeway blogger. Repetitiveness is the key to getting the point across to the public. This is how Dubya says it should be done until it is clearly understood. Anyone remember him saying that you have to repeat something over and over again until it sinks in?

"If ever time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall posess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need ot its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." Samuel Adams

"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government." Thomas Paine

"The means of defense against foreign danger historically have become the instruments of tyranny at home." James Madison

The article I mention in post #1 is doing exactly what the Freeway Blogger asked us to do.

Somebody please inform the media ...

There are several issues that seem to be beyond the grasp of many "progressives". First, nearly every literate person in America already knows that Bush intended to invade Iraq long before doing so, and that he twisted all incoming "intelligence" to help his cause.

Second, for that significant portion of Americans who don't read the paper, there is no point in contacting the media. Nothing you put there is going to be read, anyway.

The average young progressive in America could not name his congressmen. At least a third of todays young "progressives" think poor people pay a higher income tax rate than rich people.

At least a third of today's young progressives could not explain what FICA is, or tell you what income tax bracket they are in. Nor could they distinguish between payroll taxes, FICA, state income taxes, or any other taxes deducted from their paychecks, if they even work.

So save the indignation. All of us who read the paper already know that Bush planned the Iraq war long ago. You're preaching to the choir.

Anyone know if any Senators have signed Conyers letter, or if more House members signed the letter on monday?

Hello,

Been outta touch here for a long (too long) time.

I'm *so glad* to read that not all of y'all have been as preoccupied as I have been.

Trouble is, whenever I get caught up again on the blogs,

I want to cry ... silly, soft, leftie me.

*Thanks* for all the work, and keeping the faith,

R
I did pass Conyers eletter ... a small work, but glad to feel part of the movement in my own nanoscale way.

And, wow, cool, a radio show!! I can't wait to hear.

Buckshot #8 Almost sounds like you are describing the bu$h kids. They would be classified as "progressives"? I wonder if they would know the difference between a lobbyist and one performing "the oldest occupation"?

Surveys show that the MSM has contributed to the american public's belief that Sadaam Hussein was allied with Al Queda and was complicit in 911.

You know, the Cheney lie.

We at the progressive, liberal, or middle of the road blogs want to stimulate the MSM. The MSM that is right wing and neocon influenced to a fault.

Those are the ones before whose nostrils we want to wave smelling salts. The ones to revive.

We are not targeting ourselves in case that is what you were thinking.

Buckshot #8-

I disagree that 'nearly every literate person in America already knows that Bush intended to invade Iraq long before doing so, and that he twisted all incoming "intelligence" to help his cause'. Many, maybe even a majority, may have some sense of that but not really appreciate the brazenness and ruthlessness with which it was done. That callous ruthlessness is what is so graphically suggested by the Downing Street Minutes. I also disagree with you that having the mainstream media pick up this and other stories is inconsequential. I believe there is a critical mass of people out there who may not be generally well-informed and who are not generally politically active or partisan. It is these people who can't get behind an idea until it really breaks into the mainstream media. They may not be regular newspaper readers but they may catch a little "real" news on TV or drive time radio (perhaps while getting updates on the Michael Jackson trial) and even from friends and workmates who might have heard about a big story in the MSM. When a story really picks up steam in the mainstream media, they might even pick up a newspaper and read more about it. In this fashion, the less inquiring (at least about things other than Michael Jackson and The Runaway Bride) do occasionally become more informed and involved, at least about a certain overriding issue. Obviously, it was a different world back in the Watergate era but it was certainly the media that finally got a critical mass to take the issue seriously. I believe that could still happen today if we had an effective mainstream media.

You miss the point when you talk about "preaching to the choir". You obviously have some negative feelings about progressives (or at least the "average young progressive") but why single them out. They are not necessarily more and certainly not less informed than the average American. The point is that the "choir" needs for these people to at least have a chance to become informed (even if they aren't willing to work hard to do it) in order to achieve the critical mass necessary to form a consensus in what can be the most powerful "branch" of the government, the People.

Dredd & Steve,

Thanks for your polite comments. Your are free to disagree. Polls do often give us a picture of what "people think" out there. Often, the people polled are not voters.

Before the last election, the youth vote was being courted by the Dems in a big way. Every time you turned around, new young sexy celebs were urging the youth to ROCK THE VOTE!!!! Yep. 18% turnout again - just like last time. (for the age group 18-25)

All that noise, and they didn't show up on election day. As far as young progressives being uninformed, I had occasion to speak to several hundred Kerry supporters. About 5 % of them knew he was a Senator. Probably 2% knew what state. I would guess that 80& of this group could name their own senator or representative. They make a lot of noise but they don't say anything.

Trying to teach them about this issue is like trying to teach physics to a tot in diapers. We have a sad, sad situation in this country. What I find disturbing about the left is it's blatant attempts to court the felons, the wefare moms, the illegal immigrants, and the ignorant youth vote. The race baiting by the Dems is shameful.

Granted, GWB out-Democrated the Dems this time around with his generous tax credits to the low enders, and his lack of a veto pen, but the Dems have stooped to new depths. Howard Dean's ridiculous statements are a symptom of a very sick, sick party.

We must be doing something right. The trolling around here has become much more subtle and sophisticated than it used to be.

I hear that, Winter Patriot #14!

Matt #3

Is this your first time connecting the dots? We can point you to lots of really good collected info, if so.

Exactly right, Jim. The Christian right's votes were all counted, you can be sure. But kids, minorities, former felons, people who had moved (even within the same precinct)...somehow theirs weren't, in sufficient numbers to throw the election to Bush when combined with electronic vote flipping.

Criticizing Howard Dean for the political situation in this country today reminds me of Mayor Daley yelling at Abraham Ribicoff at the 1968 Democratic Convention. Don't shoot the messenger.

The kids did show up in record numbers, and they voted Dem. It was another Pub planted story to claim that they didn't. The story came out just like the others they said to explain the unexplainable - how the polls got it wrong, both the pre-election and the exit polls. The Pubs also said that there was some kind of weird off-year vote counting plan in certain Ohio counties to account for there being more votes there than registered voters. This helped explain away the screwed returns to the MSM. They passed on the "shy Republican" exit poll idea, which has also been proven to be a myth. You got to hand it to the Pubs, they don't miss a trick when stealing an election. We learned that here at Nashville's Election Reform Conference in April. They stole votes electronically, but they stole them manually, too. They stole them in Dem counties by suppressing the vote and in Pub counties by padding the winning margins. A 58% Bush vote would become a 69% Bush vote in rural counties in Ohio. They discouraged turnout in Dem precincts in numbers of ways. Then they were involved in Ohio in not just fraud but recount fraud.
I tell y'all, we're fighting some evil bastahds and bastahdets... And why? Why even try? Why does it matter? For me it's because I believe in the strength of the human condition, our shared humanity, our need to leave a place a little better than we found it for the next folks to come along. That takes freedom and statesmanship, which we cant' have when rigged elections moot every other point. Keep up the fight, y'all. Say "Hallalujah!"

politically the christian right is WRONG!!!!
bumper sticker

Janice Rogers Brown, who was just confirmed as an Appeals Court judge, has said, "Sometimes in making rulings we can't rely on the law, but on a higher power." She happens to be a fundamentalist Christian, so we can assume she means (her) God.

Her God, of course, is the one and only God. He has dominion over everything, including man's laws. By extension, that means election laws. Blackwell in Ohio has said essentially the same thing..."My Christian parents taught me what was right," meaning in his case, "We must destroy liberals in any way possible."

You won't read this in any mainstream newspaper or hear it on CNN, but Judge Brown's candor about her judicial philosophy is a giveaway of the Christian right's "end justifies the means" attitude toward election fraud. WE MUST DO IT. IT'S GOD'S WILL.

If elections can be stolen in this manner, we are no longer a nation of "laws, not men," but a theocracy.

RLM #20 Judge Brown is more evidence of the across-the-board hypocrisy of the neocons. They complain about activist judges (interpretation: any judge that goes against their wishes).

They scream and proclaim that their judges are not activist because they follow the law. Then they try to move heaven and earth, by threatening to destroy the 214 year old filibuster tradition, over a judge that says you can't always follow the law.

This is typical DeLay, Feeney, neocon self-righteous bigotry and hypocrisy of the puke kind.

It is a Sickocracy they labor under. Yes, the criminally insane are in power.

To them "socialism" is getting along with other people, being good neighbors in the world, being concerned for the health of the earth, and other forms of outgoing concern for the welfare of others.

The criminally insane make up the current Sickocracy ... but as you say ... they do want a Theocracy. And in this day and age to want that is another form of insanity.

Like freeway blogger says ... someone tell the media.

Judge Brown confirmed, Pryor next.
But not to worry the 'Filibuster' is safe --in a steel lock box with a bullet proof glass cover with a 'break it when needed' rubber mallot nearby, and it stands as a token 'victory' to a glorius defeat effected by our loyal but prostrate reps.

But not to worry (#2) their pay yearly pay increases are safe.

Maybe they can mount an opposition to something that works, like "Pick on Dean" and replace him at the DLC--perhaps, if we ask nicely, we can get someone like Buckshout to graciously step in.

Jim,

Please excuse the vicious typos.

If you think the youth vote did turnout in record numbers, you simply are delusional. I'm not going to argue that there were not localized cases of fraud. And I agree, the idea of having paperless voting machines is beyond my ability to comprehend. (too)

Let me tell you why I don't believe there was massive fraud, tho. When I look at the red/blue map of America (the one that's broken down by county/precinct) I see vast fields of red with little pockets of blue. In the west, the Indian Reservations & local liberal oases are clearly visible. Virtually all inner city precincts across America, predominantly welfare class, are blue. On the east coast, a few liberal splotches of blue (containing millions of people - densely packed together) exist.

All across small town America, I see fields of red. Family values red. Working class, taxpaying class, American apple pie red.

We often hear Dem cries for tossing out the electoral college. I can guarantee that would be the end of America. The vast welfare class would overwhelm the taxpayer class and production would grind to a halt in short order.

Right now, almost half of Americans pay zero income taxes. The bottom half actually pay only 4$ of individual income taxes. The upper half pay 96% of all individual income taxes. We cannot allow the non-payers to dictate policy to those who are shouldering the burden.

This would be like letting teenagers set their own allowance & chore duties.

Shannon,

As far as the details you mention of voter fraud, I cannot respond to them with any more authority than you, (which is none) as neither of us were there. We read the same reports in the paper.

You are free to believe what you want. My opinion is that if your party's only message is to get out the young, ignorant, felon, illegal, and gay vote, where is the pride in that kind of victory? When asked why they support the Dems, over 90% will answer with a negative comment about the oppostion, rather than to actually provide something positive about the Dem platform. (what is the dem platform?)

During the campaigns, I interviewed hundreds of Kerry supporters. I can assure you that AT LEAST 90 percent had no opinion about Kerry whatsoever. Most had no idea who his running mate was. They hated bush. That was their position.

You guys are not in touch with the reality of what a shambles your party is in.

Buckshot #13 ...thanking God we're in America I can say I don't agree with your Dean statement at all. We need someone to say the outrageous things. He only told truths, the GOP is preceived by most to be the white christian party, don't mean it's true, we all know it's not, but they themselves sold it that way at the right locations. Of course in gun country they drove pickups, to gain the trust of other diverse groups, bush managed to find people loyal, greedy and stupid enough to assign to hight positions in government to impress and use...so on.

We need a Rove to start nasty rumours that can have their origins denied after...remember the reverse poles he pulled on McCain.

We need much more than we have now! Remember between the Rev. LaHays political moves and Nut Gingrich's nutty behaviors the GOP won (fooled and feared) many followers.

The rules are written, we must stop being the 'Good Guys' and fight a tad dirtier!

party? buckshot is talking about parties? you, buckshot, are sadly out of touch with the reality of what a shambles your country is in.

Mr. Buckshot, I am one the "you guys" you're addressing your comments to. Please understand something...I don't care whether the Democratic party is in shambles or not. It's irrelevant to me.

I'm an Independent who has voted for exactly two Democrats for president since I voted for Goldwater (my first presidential vote) in 1964. I voted for McGovern in 1972, and Kerry in 2004, for the same reason...I THOUGHT THE INCUMBENT REPUBLICAN WAS A CROOK. I was right about Nixon; I expect to be proven right about Bush.

Now what the hell does that have to do with what shape the Democratic party is in? Why does the issue of honest elections have to come down to some stupid Fox Network/Rush Limbaugh-type debate about how the Democrats have no agenda? Maybe you're right. So what?

I don't "hate" Bush because I think his party's agenda is good or bad (though I dislike 80% of it). I "hate" Bush because he and the people around him have stolen two elections, in order to further their new world order...which I think will be a calamity for my children and grandchildren.

That's REALITY, Mr. Buckshot. Just because the mainstream media want everything expressed in partisan political terms (to further their own agendas) doesn't mean we have to pay attention.

Ada,

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Robert,

Your position of hatred toward Bush is not one that can be answered by any rational dialogue. So I won't try.

I did not vote for Bush, either. Nor his Papa. I did vote for Reagan in 1980 because I believed his positive message that government is the problem. I agreed that the confiscatory income tax rates needed to be lowered. He did so, and spawned the largest growth period the world has ever seen.

(aside from his senility, the Iran-Contra affair, etc)

Most of these young progressives have no idea what the income tax rates were pre-Reagan. Anyone know?

Buckshot,

I too was disappointed that the youth vote didn't turn out on election day, despite all the efforts to get them off their butts.

Then as I dug deeper, I realized: actually, they did turn out. In large numbers.

In many instances, it appears they just weren't counted.

Which brings us to the reason so many of us read bradblog, blackboxvoting.org, verified voting.org and freepress.org... investigating election fraud.

Buckshot, if you have no idea what Ada said, you need to go study lots of stuff. I'm sure we can point you to many, many collections of facts if you'd like.

Finally he is getting attention! I discovered his site last year and he encouraged me to start my own sign posting. I have been doing it for a year now. I am not alone because during the election many signs were on the freeway.

I think this is a great way to reach people who aren't aware of the issues.

I know this post went a bit off topic. I hope people get together and post some signs.

Attack the media!

Joe,

I don't know what makes you think I'm out of touch with the mess we're in. Since you don't elaborate, I'll leave it at that.

Either express yourself coherently or don't bother.

Kira,

I read Ada's post. Aside from the fact that he/she makes up words, expresses vague and abstract "feelings", and generall says nothing, I'm not sure what to tell you. I'm not going to GUESS what he/she means.

And your profound advice that I need to "go study lots of stuff" leaves me wondering what grade you're in. If this thread is an example of average democrats, I can see why you ....

1) lost the presidency
2) lost the house
3) lost the senate
4) have a DNC chairman who thinks insulting the majority of Americans makes sense

I'm not reading any original thoughts here.

Kira,

Your advice that I need to "go study lots of stuff" makes me wonder what grade you're in. As far as Ada's post, it is vague, abstract, uses made-up words, and generally says nothing.

If this is typical "thinking" of democrats, I can see why the presidency and both houses of congress have been captured by the GOP.

I wrote a letter to my reps a few days ago about the DSM, here's one I got back from Senator Dianne Feinstein. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised.

Thank you for your letter about removing the President from office because of intelligence failures prior to the invasion of Iraq. I appreciate you taking the time to write and I welcome the opportunity to respond. I regret that we disagree on this issue since I do not support the impeachment of the President on these
grounds.

First, the Constitution details that the President may be removed from office if he is impeached and convicted of treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors, which, leaves the basis for impeachment open to some interpretation. The actual process for impeaching a president involves the House of Representatives acting as the prosecutor and bringing relevant charges against the President. The Senate then acts as the jury and the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court acts as the judge, together responsible for trying the President.

Second, the Senate vote on the resolution to authorize the use of force in Iraq was difficult and consequential based on hours of intelligence briefings from Administration and intelligence
officials, as well as the classified and unclassified versions of an important National Intelligence Estimate that comprehensively assessed Iraqi's WMD program. It was based on trust that this intelligence was the best our Nation's intelligence services could offer, untainted by bias, and fairly presented. In this case it was not.

The bottom line is that Iraq did not possess nuclear, chemical or biological weapons in 2003 when the war began. Saddam Hussein did not have an active nuclear, chemical or biological weapons program. Considering the statements that were being made by the Administration, and the intelligence that was presented to Congress which said otherwise, this is quite disturbing and points once again to failures in the analysis, collection and use of intelligence.

In order to address these intelligence failures, Congress passed the Intelligence Reform bill, which I voted for. This law will make consequential changes to the structure and organization of the 15 agencies which make up our intelligence capabilities. Please know that as a member of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, I will be sure to continue to monitor this issue closely.

Again, thank you for taking the time to write. If you have any further questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact my Washington, D.C. office at (202) 224-3841, or visit my website
at http://feinstein.senate.gov/.

Buckshot,

With all due respect, like Mr. Mills, I too am an independent. I thought Dole would have made a fine president and even Bush I, while not my favorite president, was smart enough to know when not to cross the line. Qualities sorely missing in the current White House occupants. So I call 'em as I see 'em--Clinton a egomaniac but a political genius; Bush, simply a maniac.

When you say "I don't see any ideas here," you yourself are simply parroting a Republican talking point, which shows not a lot of ideas from you, truthfully. So let me point out a few Republican ideas and then a few Democratic ones.

Republican ideas:
1) Invade a sovereign secular nation that was no threat to us and in so doing, kill 1600+ US servicemen and perhaps 100,000 innocent civilians, all in the name of oil, vengeance and dollar stabilization. (We were successful on one of those three objectives.)
2) Stack the courts with far-right maniacs who hate individuals but embrace corporations and who mean to poison us with smog, leeched chemicals and mercury-infested fish.
3) Bring about global ruin by destroying the United Nations, starting a massive war in the Middle East and melting the polar ice caps. When the bodies are piled up high enough, the one true Christ will return and rapture only the believers, and send everyone else with the temerity to use the freewill God gave them, straight to Satan!
4) Destroy Social Security in the mistaken belief it's socialism (it is not) thereby ensuring massive suffering in decades to come
5) Alienate all of our allies and squander international goodwill by being arrogant, tempestuous imperialists

Hmm, good ideas. Now here are a few Democratic ones:

1) Balance the budget and perhaps even run a surplus. Use the surplus to shore up things like, oh, schools.
2) Appoint level-headed centrist judges who interpret the Constitution as opposed to try to destroy it.
3) Aggressively try to stop terrorist attacks by acting on intelligence.
4) Maintain strong relations with the world community and not try to bully them into submission, which only fosters global resentment and produces more terrorism.

Oh, and here's one bad one:

5) Cave like a frickin' house of cards when challenged by big, bad Republican bullies.

I think they're working on that one.

Mr. Buckshot's debating technique is clever. He uses phrases like "you guys" to lump everyone into a common pool, a sort of collective straw man he can then discredit with an opinion stated as fact, such as "Democrats have no agenda."

If he gets a response he doesn't like, his tactic is to say, "I have no idea what you're talking about," no matter how clearly expressed the response was, or "I won't even try to respond to that." That's a subtle way of making the person he's addressing sound dumb or out of touch, as if he himself has revealed truth no one else has.

Regarding election fraud, he acknowledges the possibility of isolated cases but rejects massive fraud on the basis that "I wasn't there and neither were you." Mr. Buckshot, I WAS THERE ON ELECTION DAY, HAVING TRAVELED FROM CONNECTICUT TO FLORIDA AT MY OWN EXPENSE TO SERVE AS A POLL WATCHER, AND I SAW DELIBERATE SHORTING OF VOTING MACHINES IN A MINORITY PRECINCT AND VOTE-FLIPPING FROM KERRY TO BUSH.

That's one person only, who saw, in the course of a single morning, examples of two techniques used by the G.O.P. in Florida, Ohio and elsewhere to influence the vote. If you choose to believe what I saw was isolated, when unfair allocation of voting machines and flipped votes happened all over Florida and Ohio, then you can believe that. But I won't understand you, so I'll "have no idea what you're talking about and won't even try to respond."

Mr. Buckshot's debating technique is clever. He uses phrases like "you guys" to lump everyone into a common pool, a sort of collective straw man he can then discredit with an opinion stated as fact, such as "Democrats have no agenda."

If he gets a response he doesn't like, his tactic is to say, "I have no idea what you're talking about," no matter how clearly expressed the response was, or "I won't even try to respond to that." That's a subtle way of making the person he's addressing sound dumb or out of touch, as if he himself has revealed truth no one else has.

Regarding election fraud, he acknowledges the possibility of isolated cases but rejects massive fraud on the basis that "I wasn't there and neither were you." Mr. Buckshot, I WAS THERE ON ELECTION DAY, HAVING TRAVELED FROM CONNECTICUT TO FLORIDA AT MY OWN EXPENSE TO SERVE AS A POLL WATCHER, AND I SAW DELIBERATE SHORTING OF VOTING MACHINES IN A MINORITY PRECINCT AND VOTE-FLIPPING FROM KERRY TO BUSH.

That's one person only, who saw, in the course of a single morning, examples of two techniques used by the G.O.P. in Florida, Ohio and elsewhere to influence the vote. If you choose to believe what I saw was isolated, when unfair allocation of voting machines and flipped votes happened all over Florida and Ohio, then you can believe that. But I won't understand you, so I'll "have no idea what you're talking about and won't even try to respond."

Mr. Buckshot's debating technique is clever. He uses phrases like "you guys" to lump everyone into a common pool, a sort of collective straw man he can then discredit with an opinion stated as fact, such as "Democrats have no agenda."

If he gets a response he doesn't like, his tactic is to say, "I have no idea what you're talking about," no matter how clearly expressed the response was, or "I won't even try to respond to that." That's a subtle way of making the person he's addressing sound dumb or out of touch, as if he himself has revealed truth no one else has.

Regarding election fraud, he acknowledges the possibility of isolated cases but rejects massive fraud on the basis that "I wasn't there and neither were you." Mr. Buckshot, I WAS THERE ON ELECTION DAY, HAVING TRAVELED FROM CONNECTICUT TO FLORIDA AT MY OWN EXPENSE TO SERVE AS A POLL WATCHER, AND I SAW DELIBERATE SHORTING OF VOTING MACHINES IN A MINORITY PRECINCT AND VOTE-FLIPPING FROM KERRY TO BUSH.

That's one person only, who saw, in the course of a single morning, examples of two techniques used by the G.O.P. in Florida, Ohio and elsewhere to influence the vote. If you choose to believe what I saw was isolated, when unfair allocation of voting machines and flipped votes happened all over Florida and Ohio, then you can believe that. But I won't understand you, so I'll "have no idea what you're talking about and won't even try to respond."

a) It's a delightful change of pace to have a troll here who can actually write in complete sentences.

b) It's a shame not a single one of 'em wasn't fed to him by Rush. (Originality is not the hallmark of even your educated troll).

c) He begins by spewing nonsense about "uneducated" voters, and attempts to sell Rush's uneducated line in the next breath about the youth vote being down. Here's just one document to help educate the latest troll. That from Nov. 3rd, though a more recent study on it, showing an even higher increase, based on census data was released a week or so ago. Too late to go looking, but Trollboy knows how to find it. (If Rush tells him where to look)

d) I will give him $1000 if he can prove that he didn't vote for Bush as he claims.

e) Trolls are not only clueless, they are also, apparently, congenital liars.

f) Every "progressive" here (as he likes to use the quotes) is smart enough to realize what a liar this troll is. The only question remaining is if he is smart enough to realize what a liar he is.

Right, Brad. Our friend Mr. Buckshot is a literate variation on the troll theme.

He's clearly a Rush Limbaugh ditto-head. Rush loves to repeat the mantra, "Democrats have no agenda," which is Buckshot's coup de grace statement. uttered to stifle further comment. It's just a Limbaugh talking point, not a fact, of course. When John Kerry talks about health insurance for kids, isn't that a legitimate agenda item? When bills are proposed seeking paper trails on electronic voting machines (always by Democrats), isn't that likewise part of a legitimate populist agenda?

No. Because the Republicans don't like those ideas. An "agenda" is only what Republicans approve of, which is unilateral invasions of sovereign foreign countries, denial of cherished civil liberties in the name of a phony "war on terrorism," equating dissent with disloyalty, control of all news media, and rampant corporate welfare. And wherever this doesn't go over with the public...lies, lies, lies.

Let none of us be fooled by Mr. Buckshot. Change three letters in his name and you'll get the true picture of what he's about.

Spot on Brad! *grin* and may I say, well done to all the "progressives" here! I must say, buckshot makes a change from Hank at conyers! There's a fine example of a moronic troll for you! Ahhh well... Kira and Sandra and others are trying to educate him, as I see they are buckshot...

Bushmonkey is simply a deluded puppet of the Religious right nutters and the MIC. The religious nutters have been trying to start a war in the Mid East for decades. The oil is an added bonus for the MIC. There is more than ample proof around.

By pure coincidence, I happened to be given a book written by Frank Zappa in 1988 called "The Real Frank Zappa Book". Now, I am not a fan of Zappa, or rather, I wasn't. My views have changed now that I have read this book! I had to keep checking the publishing date! He could have been writing about the crooked shenanigans of the Repubs today.

One of the things he writes about is a 1979 agreement between Reagan and the religious right who then helped him be elected President. Then Reagan had to pay the dues...

Anyway, I found it fascinating. Wonder if we will be doing this all over again in 10 years? We wiil, if the nutters who are actually the problem are not dealt with. Even Democrats are not immune from them. They will align themselves to anyone, who will give them what they want.

I think it is really an irony that "Conservatives" want their government to have an "agenda." I thought the problem with big government was that it had agendas that it pushed on people.

But, then if you ask anyone who has been Conservative since Goldwater, many of them kind of grumble and scoff at crass, blathering, dopehead phonies like Rush, anyways. He is actually a cynical neo-con Public Relations machine rather than an actual thinker, and the best tool in his belt is a chortling guffaw followed by a hyperventilating non-argument character smear. And for all his sanctimonious Christianity and family values, you'd think he would humble himself a little after God took his hearing away and the devil dragged him through dope addiction. But nope.

But, to get back to the question of having an agenda. I'd rather elect a block of cheddar cheese than a politician whose agenda seems to consist of war in Iraq, tax cuts for the rich, staggering debt, the outsourcing of all our good jobs, and the destruction of our social safety net. If given the choice between inaction and evil action, inaction, without a doubt is the superior moral choice.

But beyond that, the Democrats do have an agenda. Remember Bill Clinton, with him in office, the nation flourished and everybody loved him. Now we are stuck with someone that everybody hates and who is driving the country into a ditch.

Get on the band wagon Republicans, otherwise there will be no "government" for you to bitch about. In a few years, America will be like that oasis of small government, SOMALIA... and your reason for existence--making money, resenting minorities, and loathing the greatest government in the history of the world--will all be meaningless. We'll all be too busy picking through garbage dumps for food to eat, our kids will be sniffing glue and picking pockets, and the lucky few who aren't reduced to grinding poverty will live in mini fortresses with barbed-wire perimeters in perpetual fear of riots and kidnappings. Some agenda the Republicans have. I can't believe I WAS one.

Brad & others,

For those of you who are familiar with the logical fallacies, have you stopped to think how many of them you inject into your 'reasoning' process?

Let's start with ad-hominum attacks. In response to my polite posts, I was called a ....

1) moronic troll
2) bushmonkey
3) a ditto head
4) a liar

and perhaps another half dozen Junior-high-level names. If this is how you want to present yourself, that is your choice, but it's hard to take anything else you say seriously when you have so little self control over your emotions.

The straw man argument is used liberally here (no pun intended). Several of you suggest that I said the Dems have no agenda. Then you attacked that statement viciously.

Guess what? I didn't say it. I said nothing whatever about an agenda. If Rush Limbaugh bothers you, and he uses the term "agenda", and you go ape when you hear the word "agenda", then....

DON'T USE THE WORD.

Again, that word was injected into the "discussion" by one of you.

As far as Rush, I consider him to be a shameless hawker of useless products, and a world class hypocrite and charlatan. So what? Your tactic is to tie me to the hated Rush, then attack me by association.

I can assure you all, YOU have as much in common with Rush as I do.

None of my points or questions were even addressed by any of you, in your rush to call names, use cutesy child-like insults, and lash out in anger with vague "feellings" that I am supposed to interpret.

I don't try to interpret feellings. Either speak to me like an adult or don't speak to me, please.

Now, on the subject of the voter turnout of the youth, we are comparing apples and oranges here. To start with, I mentioned the turnout of the 18-25 group, which remained about the same (18% turnout).

In response, Brad presented turnout numbers from the age group 18-30. This is sort of like arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It was mentioned that paperless ballots were a disgrace - I could not agree more. (and stated so) Nonetheless, I was assailed as supporting paperless ballots.

There were several more inaccurate represtentations of my position, as well. When you misrepresent my position, and then ATTACK THAT MISREPRESENTATION, how can you NOT understand that it demonstrates your lack of ethics, not to mention reasoning ability?

I expect to be censored from this blog, so if I disappear, you'll know why. Heaven forbid you would have some adult dialogue supporting self reliance, rathional thought, responsible behavior, and simple courtesy.

I stand by every statement I made in response to Buckshot.

He is, as it is said by the man he "didn't" vote for, an accomplished "disassembler" and a more sophisticated version of the usual class of trolls we get around here. Mission: Distract, Throw up Smokescreens, Avoid Questions he can't answer, Charge others with doing what he's done.

Classic Trollism.

As for censorship, we don't do that here. As long as you post under a single name, and treat other commenters with something resembling respect, your comments will stay.

If you chose to leave however, that's up to you. But the folks around here are not your average Fox watchers, so they won't buy that "I've been censored, so that's why I'm not here crap", when the truth is "I wasn't getting anywhere at BRAD BLOG because they're not your average dopes, so I'll disappear, but let everyone know it was because I was 'censored' before actually moving on".

See ya Buckshot. Or not.

Buckshot,

I ain't got a beef with you. I think it takes a big man to admit that his party's candidate is too crooked to deserve a party line vote. And I totally feel you when it comes to the lackluster leadership that the Democrats have shown in the past.

But you have to face the facts, we are a nation of pissed off people. I used to be a Republican until I just couldn't take all the sanctimonious "family values" and "regular folks" crapola from that bunch of whoremongering butchers. I mean, if I hear some pseudo-religious politician tell me to pray to Jesus, but put my faith in guns and money one more time, my head just might explode. All this praise jeezus halleluyah jabber about how evil Bill Clinton is, but not a dang peep about the appointment of John Bolton--a man who destroyed his family by FORCING HIS WIFE TO SLEEP WITH OTHER MEN! It's barbaric, unholy, and a recipe for blackmail. And "Conservatives" want this immoral man to represent us in the world!

You got the FRC doing outreach to David Duke's followers. You got thousands of troops getting killed in Iraq (not to mention the civilians). You got election fraud and lies. The President talks about stem cells and sanctity of God's creation, meanwhile DARPA is studying ways to hook humans up to weapons and train their pleasure centers to love killing! We have torture chambers. A totally unethical mass media that is lying about the war. Our jobs are heading South. I mean, what in the world is wrong with being angry about that!

This is America! And when someone tries to hurt it, I start yelling. And yelling is undignified.... but there is far less dignity in sitting silent while injustices are done.

I appreciate your input and I think that voter turnouts are an interesting and debatable subject that get lots of traffic on BradBlog. But this thread is supposed to be about the Freeway Blogger and getting people mobilized behind Downing Street. When somebody pops in with a comment about the ignorance of young progressives, it seems like an invitation for confrontation.

We are all so used to getting slammed by trolls, that we make the same human mistakes that anyone does. We spit back. In your case, I was wrong. And I am glad you dislike Rush as much as I do. I totally thought you were just trying to kick up some shit, and I guess I was wrong.

It is a common response, but it is humiliating. It reminds me of a talk I had with a prominent conservative pundit. We were talking about something serious, and some goon came up saying how much he admired the guy and how he thought we should really start locking arabs up en masse. I think, to show that he disagreed with me and stood in solidarity with his fellow conservatives. But it was just totally stupid and off the mark and embarassing for everybody. These things happen on the internet all the time. They are indicative of a more general social malaise, not specific to a particular party or ideology, but they are always used as evidence that the other side is just plum crazy.

So, I am sorry that I did that to you. I am just grateful that you really do recognize that GWB is not a good president and that the whole "Conservative" fad is a lot of style but little substance. I was once a super conservative... pro-death-penalty, pro-war, pro-federal drugs laws, anti-immigrant, pro-big-business, gay-hating avaricious brat. But once I truly saw what this brand of "conservativism" was doing to my neighbors, I had to abandon that sinking ship... it just flies in the face of the Jesus I know and love. And while I don't always agree with my "progressive" brothers and sisters, I trust them a helluvalot more than the vultures I used to hang with.

Peace. It's what's for dinner.

As Mr. Buckshot well knows, "ditto-head" is a term used by Rush Limbaugh himself to describe his own listeners, who ingratiate themselves with him by saying, "Ditto, Rush." None seem to care that they come across as mindless sycophants who can't think for themselves...like the Hitler Youth or the poor Argentinians who worshipped the Perons.

If "ditto-head" constitutes a calumny against Mr. Buckshot, then he should blame Rush. I just used a term to describe him that Rush's other listeners consider a compliment.

Brad,

Okay I'll take you at your word that you won't censor me. Usually when young progressives are faced with coherent dialogue, rather than slogans & namecalling, the next step is to be banned from the blog.

I'm not going to accept responsibility for all the things that OTHER PEOPLE have done/said to you.

You haven't asked my opinions of the many things you've accused me of. If you had asked what I think about Rush Limbaugh, George Bush, or paperless ballots I would have told you. Instead, you tell me first

1) what I think...

and then...

2) why I'm a liar for thinking it or saying what I do think.

That is not dialogue. That is simple vilification of someone you don't even know.

The dems are having a hard time of it for several reasons....

1) Dean, a spokesman (yikes) is blurting out offensive and insulting comments about a majortiy of Americans. (what a strategy)
2) Left leaning judges are trying to force-feed gay marriage down the throats of Americans, disregarding the fact that 70% (or more) of said Americans are rabidly against gay marriage.
3) Dems don't have a clear winning strategy that someone can hang their hat on...attacking the GOP is not a strategy.
4) The youth are woefully ignorant of current events, and on election day they tend to NOT turn out, despite the left's insistence that they do.

I cannot argue with anyone who believes there was massive voter fraud, because I simply do not know how much fraud there was. I can only rely on rational thinking - and I noted there were countless cases of Dems encouraging unethical double registrations, registration of illegal voters, and cries of fraud that came before results were even known.

Just based on the repeated unethical suggestions/comments from "progressives" on blogs such as this, I come to the conclusion that the left is no more/no less ethical than the right. But that's just my view.

If you want to believe the young folks turned out to vote, and their votes weren't counted, well... go ahead.

I didn't hear any comment on the fact that the bottom half of Americans pay only 4% of the individual income taxes paid in America. If you look at quintiles (assuming you know what one is) you will find (from the IRS website) that the bottom 20% of Americans pay zero percent of the total individual income taxes paid in America.

If you look at the next highest quintile (the second lowest) you will find that they pay LESS THAN ZERO percent of the total individual income taxes in America. (because of EITC's & child tax credits.

In other words, this 20% group is actually getting paid more in tax refunds than they ever paid in income taxes!

We face a real danger in America today, of having the bottom earners dictating policy to those who are carrying the load.

No one replied on the pre-Reagan tax rates in America. I wonder if any of you have a clue what the income tax rates were before Reagan lowered them. Anyone?

Bravo, Robert.

Hi Ada #24

I know what you're talking about. Here's a bit more information for those who may not be following what you & I already know.

That's ok, Buckshot dear. Wonder away! And study away:

Here’s just a little bit on Lahaye:

**Dr. Tim Lahaye** - Pastor, pre-Tribulation Rapturist, Founder of CNP 1981;

**CNP --- Council for National Policy**, the 500+ member organization which plans the strategy of the Religious Right in the United States. ( SeekGod.Ca )

Founder of Christian Heritage College; one of the original founders and member of the Executive Board of Moral Majority; founder, American Coalition for Traditional Values; a member of the Editorial Board of Christian Inquirer 6; Member of Ed McAteer ' Religious Roundtable Council of 56, author of Left Behind series, assisted Dr. Henry Morris in the founding of the Institute for Creation Research, the nation's foremost exponent of creationist materials ---

**Creation Science Research Center (CSRC)** In 1970 Henry Morris moved to San Diego to help Pastor Tim LaHaye start Christian Heritage College and CSRS. Kelly Segraves became the assistant director. Because of disagreements in 1972 Segraves took control of CSRC and moved across town. Henry Morris reorganized the remaining staff and started ICR to focus on research and education, not politics as Segraves wanted.;

He designed the LaHaye Temperament Analysis (fundamentalist christian psychological testing which is being ushered in to schools across the nation --- look for this to link hand-in-hand with bush's "New Freedom Commission on Mental Health")
Temperament Analysis/Personality Typing - Christian or Occult?

Conservative USA mental testing

Bush To Impose Psychiatric Drug Regime

UNIVERSAL FORCED Mental Health Tests

New Freedom Commission on Mental Health

Under legislation now pending before Congress, every man, woman and child in America will eventually be required to undergo psychological screenings for mental health run by the government. Participation will be mandatory, and any citizen judged deficient will be subject to forced drugging by the state.

The program is part of President Bush's "New Freedom Commission on Mental Health." Some $44 million in initial funding is included in a massive, omnibus "must pass" appropriations bill now pending before Congress. As you might expect, the pending law has the whole-hearted support of the pharmaceutical industry.

… This ominous, authoritarian legislation will vastly increase the federal government's control over the lives of everyone in America, and sadly it will likely pass – unless there is massive public opposition. The consequences could well be tragic for millions of Americans.

… As Rep. Ron Paul (R, TX) warns: "Once the limited federal program is accepted, it will be expanded nationwide. Once in place throughout the country, the screening program will become mandatory."

"Soviet communists attempted to paint all opposition to the state as mental illness. It now seems our own federal government wants to create a therapeutic nanny state, beginning with schoolchildren."

**STIGMATIZING DIAGNOSES WILL BE ON THEIR PERMANENT RECORDS**

“Dr. Karen R. Effrem, another physician and leading opponent of mandatory screening recently stated, ‘Universal mental health screening and the drugging of children, as recommended by the New Freedom Commission [presidential commission], needs to be stopped so that many thousands if not millions of children will be saved from receiving stigmatizing diagnoses that would follow them for the rest of their lives. America’s school children should not be medicated by expensive, ineffective, and dangerous medications based on vague and dubious diagnoses.’

“Dr. Effrem warns of the following: 1. Parental rights are unclear or non-existent under these screening programs. 2. Parents are already being coerced to put their children on psychiatric medications and some children are dying because of it. 3. Mental health screening does not prevent suicide. 4. Mental health diagnoses are ‘subjective’ and ‘social constructions’ as admitted by the authors of the diagnostic manuals themselves. 5. Most psychiatric medications do not work in children. 6. The side effects of these medications in children are severe. 7. The untoward influence by the pharmaceutical industry, or at least the impropriety, is abundantly clear in two important aspects of this issue.”

==================================

Dr. Timothy LaHaye’s wife Beverly, is chairman of the board and founder of Concerned Women for America (CWFA is a leading religious right organization. The group has long opposed abortion and women's rights, being originally formed to fight against the Equal Rights Amendment, and has recently become much more vocally opposed to equal rights for lesbians and gay people, and to the National Education Association, for it's support for a Gay-Lesbian-Bisexual History Month. Concerned Women for America has also recently taken a decidedly nativist turn in their pronouncements, opposing much United Nations involvement by the United States, and several United Nations conferences on the rights of women and children.)

See also The Public Eye Organization - Theocracy

Dr. Timothy LaHaye’s books: His current fiction series, co-authored with Jerry Jenkins, is the all-time best-selling Christian fiction series. With twelve titles in the series - Left Behind, Tribulation Force, Nicolae, Soul Harvest, Apollyon, Assassins, The Indwelling, The Mark, Desecration, The Remnant, Armageddon, and book number 12, to be released in March, 2004, The Glorious Appearing.

**The subject of all those books is just a little bit disconcerting considering his vast political reach, power and influence - eh?**

THEOCRACY WATCH!

I’ll post info re: Newtie (Nut) Gingrich later when I have more time!

Re: above and prior
Incoherent, rambling, appalling.
One is not a liar for 'thinking', one is a liar for making up facts, figures off the cuff, as it were.

Poorly thought out and poorly written and overly worded --be a nice troll, go sit.

Something makes me think manananabanana.

Reagan took office for the first time over 24 years ago. He lowered taxes and cut regulations according to a Chicago-schoold policy known as
"supply-side economics." It became so closely identified with him personally that it morphed into
"Reaganomics."

Reaganomics was good and bad. It ended the self-fulfilling inflation pyschology that prevailed ("buy now, because prices are going up"). That was good. The bad part was that it set in motion a trend toward unequal wealth distribution ("the rich get richer, the poor have children"). That's continued to the present. Whatever one's politics, creating more billionaires at the expense of the middle class has ALWAYS BEEN DISASTROUS ECONOMICALLY.

When the fit hits the shan, Mr. Buckshot, please don't go around blaming Democrats because their party is in shambles. That's what Rush Limbaugh will try to do...if he's still on the air, which probably won't be the case.

Robert,

So I take it you don't know what the rates were pre-Reagan? Or perhaps you forgot the question and decided on a partial history lesson instead.

If you don't know what the rates were pre-Reagan, you can't possibly grasp the results of lowering them.

But thanks for your courtesy.

Your comment that more billionaires are being created at the expense of the middle class is silly. The middle class of America is filthy rich compared to 99% of the world population. So rich, in fact, that death from overeating-related illness is the biggest danger. The only class of people in the world who are at greater risk of obesity-related death is the "POOR" of America.

Robert,

This blog is cumbersome...let me try again.

You didn't answer the question about tax rates in America pre- Reagan. Perhaps you don't know what they were, in which case your analysis is pretty worthless. In other words, you should know what you're talking about BEFORE you talk.

Mr. Buckshot, I was a broker with Wall Street firms from 1973 to 2001. In 1981, the year Reagan took office, I was teaching a Certified Financial Planning course for Adelphi University at night, after spending all day in the office. I am the author of five books, the most recent of which, "The Lindbergh Syndrome: Heroes and Celebrities in a New Gilded Age," discusses the Reagan White House at length as part of the fourth Gilded Age chapter. I've probably forgotten more about tax rates and interest rates than you know.

You haven't told us anything about yourself. In fact, you haven't even given us your real name. An economic scholar named "Buckshot?" Hello?

I hope my fellow bloggers realize what you're all about. You assume a professorial presence, asking "What were income-tax rates pre-Reagan?" (the answer is, "As high as 91% on the last dollar earned at one point") as if I'll get a low grade in your class if I don't know the answer. But you cleverly don't set paramaters for your question... when Reagan took office, it had been 143 years since the Declaration of Independence. So the phrase "pre-Reagan" covers a lot of ground.

The following might be beyond you. I'll try to go slowly. Income-tax rates were only part of the problem faced by the economy in 1980, the year Reagan was first elected. What happened was that loan demand for commodity products (oil and gold in particular) was driving interest rates up. Because all loan interest was tax-deductible in 1980 (no longer the case), it was possible to "leverage inflation" by borrowing at 15% (at a 70% income-tax rate, that was only 4-1/2% after taxes) and invest the borrowed funds in oil or gold, both of which were rising in price at several times that rate.

Income-tax rates played a key role, but interest rates were the reason Carter lost control of the economy...because with high tax rates, leveraging inflation became an effective investment strategy. To reverse this, the Federal Reserve (not Reagan) killed inflation by cutting off the money spigot and throwing the economy into a recession.

The middle class in this country eats more food than in most countries. Does that mean it's better off? Is anyone better off eating McDonald's food? Have you bothered to connect obesity with the number of fast-food restaurants in this country? You call me "silly" for suggesting that creating billionaires while the middle class shrinks is bad policy? What will happen when the housing bubble bursts and those middle-class homeowners who have leveraged their homes to the max and hit the limit on their credit cards aren't able to declare bankruptcy?

Just wait, Mr. Buckshot. And please, save your economic lessons for people who need them.

Robert,

Unfortunately, I'm having great difficulty posting on this blog. Testing.

:heh: #54

Also - re: obesity ---

Keep in mind that so many people in the middle range (carrying most of the tax burden) and the lower range are having to work up to 3 jobs to stay ahead of bankruptcy and that's with married couples both working.

Who is able to prepare decent meals for the family --- that takes lots of time! Shopping, preparing, cleaning up, taking care of kids --- resting and rejuvinating ??? Fast food or prepackaged food is mostly high-carb & high-fat. Admit it --- this is why these overworked people are obese.

(Jerk)

Manyanabanana, Jimbo, Buckshoot, and other nom de plume-ers.
All have similar repetitious bloated writing traits and the same wretched, offensive and ignorent bad habits.

I like to read the trolls at times- and I am greateful that Brad gives them some rope- just to get a flavor of a different point of view but this bunch of trolls are an embarrassment.

And they speak for about 50% of the electorate?!!!

Now we know what happens when the schools are left underfunded.

Kira
Back atcha!
Thanks
and you do a Great job as a Blog-monitor
de jour

Cole - I love you!

/Kira

Buckshot the English scholar...what made up words? Sounds like you like attention and like to disagree...so you did what makes you happy, while saying nothing. As for what I said earlier.... it was clear enough considering your even more vague comment, so enough of your BS. We come here to post opinions (you know we all have them...not just you), not get graded by the likes of you.

Thank you Joe #25....totally agree.

As for the comments on voting...we need the highway sign man to get around more, since the news has failed to cover both the 2000 and 2004 voting frauds....2006 is coming, fight with your state governments to fix this immoral problem!

Voting Fraud has been proven! Period...any statement saying it didn't happen is fantasy!

Invading Iraq illegally has been proven!

Bush's lies to congress about the prescription plan have been proven.

This list could go on and on....but despite the fact that we have several 'deep throats' unless congress or the senate get an investigation going with an outside...non partisan investigator !

IMPEACH and JAIL BUSH and his CRONIES.

Kira #38.....thank you very well said...very well!

Buckshot this ones for you, here's the tax levels you requested. What are you trying to say about them now?

Tax Rates:
Year - Max Amount Employee -&- Employer Each or Self Employed
1978 $17,700.00 6.05% or 8.1%
1979 $22,900.00 6.13% or 8.1%
1980 $25,900.00 6.13% or 8.1%
1981 $29,700.00 6.65% or 9.3%
1982 $32,400.00 6.70% or 9.35%
1983 $35,700.00 6.70% or 9.35%
1984 $37,800.00 7.00% or 14.00%
1985 $39,600.00 7.05% or 14.10%
1986 $42,000.00 7.15% or 14.30%
1987 $43,800.00 7.15% or 14.30%
1988 $45,000.00 7.51% or 15.02%
Jump...
1993 $57,600.00 7.65% or 15.30%
Jump...
1998 $68,400.00 7.65% or 15.30%
Jump...
2000 $76,600.00 7.65% or 15.30%
Here we are now, broke because bush stole the money to feed his rich! So we'll have to raise them.
2005 $90,000.00 7.65% or 15.30%

Ada,

What's with the random jumbled up data?

Tell us how much a person with $100,000 taxable income in 1980 would owe.

Now tell us what the person would pay in 1981, 1982, 1985,1990, etc.

Your numbers mean nothing. What a wasted effort.

No...You do the math...in 1980 ("1980 $25,900.00 6.13% or 8.1%" ) that person earning $100,000 would pay if not self employeed 6.13% of $25,900.00 for social security, fica, etc.., if self employed they would have paid 8.1% of $25,900 in earnings. (Wasn't a waste of time, that chart was made long ago to prove most of the BS coming from bush was lies...I didn't do it for you, it's not about you.) Now to explain taxes a little further for you.... it depends on a lot of other factors what one would truly pay. (If he were GOP then he'd pay nothing for he would have most likely cheated, is that how much you paid?)

So Again...what point were you trying to make accusing us of not knowing the tax rates during reagan's "error" (no pun intended)? Looks like you lost your train of thought......to many 'talking point lies' to remember, sorry for you. It takes less of your brain to remember truth, try it.

Ada dear,

You run so many numbers and statements into a single sentence that it makes no sense whatsoever.

By the way, FICA and income taxes are two totally separate things.

It's like talking about your electric bill and your gas bill.

Yes, they both cost you. No - they aren't the same thing.

Educate yourself first. Then try to educate others. Right now you're just embarrassing yourself.

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