READER COMMENTS ON
"A Quick Update on the Clint Curtis/Ray Lemme Matter..."
(821 Responses so far...)
COMMENT #1 [Permalink]
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Molly
said on 3/15/2005 @ 3:36 am PT...
Thanks Brad, You are a patriot in the best sense of the word.Blessings to you.
COMMENT #2 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/15/2005 @ 7:00 am PT...
In my opinion, and several others, the Lemme-death thread, dealing with the investigation (or lack thereof), which broke the record for number of posts, has raised sufficient flags such that a reasonable person can conclude that the official determination finding it to have been suicide was a cover up or at the very, very least a botched affair by VPD.
That being said I have urged everyone to move on up the chain.
If everyone does as good at moving up the chain as was done in the Lemme-death thread, expect to hear some gasps out there in media land.
Several players in the old thread also agreed that we need to move on up ... without abandoning anything we have looked into there so far.
But lets use the Lemme-death thread for Lemme-specific stuff and this thread for ladder climbing up the chain.
If possible.
COMMENT #3 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/15/2005 @ 7:11 am PT...
In the Lemme-death thread, Snoopy # 702 (link here), did a start up list of the ladder we can use for our analysis.
Lets tend to move from bottom up. The reason is that Clift was negatively protrayed in the Lemme-death thread for suspicious activity, and here at the get-go in this thread he is involved in suspicious activity.
Lets follow it, detailing what he did, who he knows, why, when, how he did it. That will lead up the chain of command ... following the money and power.
I have enhanced the ladder he started, to include the following ladder. It starts at the top and works its way down to Clift:
George Bush - President USA
Jeb Bush - Governor of Florida
Feeney - Running mate of J. Bush, and Florida/US Legislator
Earl K. Durden - Florida Transportation Commission
Jose Abreu - Secretary of Transportation (FDOT)
Cecil T. Bragg, Jr. - Inspector General (FDOT)
Robert Clift - Director of Investigations (FDOT)
At the bottom of this ladder is the one who personally had authority to and did order an investigation AGAINST Cliff Curtis and FDOT Inspector Georgalis.
What gave him the authority to do this, in terms of evidence, was an affidavit of the Yangs (YEI) accusing Georgalis of bribery.
The investigation Clift initiated was a retaliation. I think it originated outside of the FDOT.
Who did Yang call to initiate the retaliation, and who counselled them?
The type of retalliation and underlying testimony is Rovian is it not?
My number one suspicion is that Yang called Feeney.
COMMENT #4 [Permalink]
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Bob Bilse
said on 3/15/2005 @ 7:14 am PT...
I'm glad that you're pursuing this case. I heard a radio interview, some time ago, with Clint Curtis, and he told of the Lemme story, and I've felt frustrated all along about this being "swept under".
I'm more-than-curious about what his family might have to say about the weird circumstances of this "suicide": Had he said, or done, anything that would give a clue to anyone close to him, that he might NOT have been suicidal? Had he said anything to anyone close to him about his investigation? Questions like that should be answered, if at all possible.
There are three other "suicides" that are questionable, also: J.H. Hatfield, Gary Webb, and Danny Casolero come to mind.
COMMENT #5 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/15/2005 @ 7:37 am PT...
Highest level ladder This is the political ideology map, with a few players named. This is only mentioned to show the ideological glue which links everything together.
1) The neocon ideology is derived from long term big-oil and big-business ideology
2) Scholars, scientists, and oil-supply engineers have learned of "peak oil" (oil reserve decline)
3) This is not only a national security problem, but a western civilization security problem
4) A war which would put mideast oil in western control is an obvious ploy (relatively easily done with superior military)
5) The homeland political climate (circa 2000), in the main, was similar to pre-world war II (stay out of wars, Vietnam remorse, etc.)
6) So the neocons have been planning a new pearl harbor (let a foreigner hurt US to enflame the body politic and change political climate) for years (10 or more)
7) the neocon background figures are the ultimate machine in terms of planning (hyper organized)
8) in 1990's they studied demographics and knew Florida was a place to focus for 2000 (elections)
9) Jeb Bush was deliberately put in Florida by the neocons prior to 2000 (a chess move) (if a Texan decides to go to a particular state for political reasons, how does "he" [they] decide?)
10) After the implant, Jeb helped set the stage for the 2000 election (he can make political appointments, etc. e.g. Harris)
11) this 2000 "victory" set the stage for the new pearl harbor (and the new state model)
12) they were then in place to effect the new pearl harbor and in position to begin to stack the deck (judge appointments, Commissioner of Transportation, legislation, etc.)
13) Florida became the state model for the rest of the states in the nation (they new about Ohio too and planned ahead for it)
14) Ohio fits the Florida model (they are now working on California and New York)
15) they were in place to multiply/consolidate power
16) they were also in place to effect 2004 election
17) they are in place to effect "the new world order"
NOTE: I do not think we should focus on this, but rather should focus on the chain from Clift on up.
He is the high chain link from the other thread, and the bottom chain link here.
Ladies and gentlemen, start your engines ...
COMMENT #6 [Permalink]
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cheryl
said on 3/15/2005 @ 7:54 am PT...
Sorry to go off topic, but is everyone aware of this campaign? Deadline is today.
COMMENT #7 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/15/2005 @ 8:24 am PT...
The Yang Affidavit I mentioned in #4 ("What gave him the authority to do this, in terms of evidence, was an affidavit of the Yangs (YEI) accusing Georgalis of bribery."), is "The Affadavit of Tyng-Lin Yang", filed in case number 152-2015, and identified as "Exhibit I-1".
That affidavit accuses FDOT investigator Georgalis of bribery. She lost her job as a result.
But the courts later re-instated her.
I think we need the documents, files, of the court case. Anyone know the case number or where the documents are?
These would be more objective documents and would have statements and the reasons the court did not believe the Yang affidavit, and other pertinent matters.
Clift evidently had "believed" the Yangs if he became instrumental in getting rid of Georgalis and Curtis.
MissPersistent in the Lemme-death thread at post #735 focuses on some of the statements of Clift.
I think his initiating of the anti-Curtis retaliation in obedience to someone unknown at the moment places his testimony in the we gotta check this out column.
COMMENT #8 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/15/2005 @ 12:46 pm PT...
Brad -
There is never ENOUGH infomation, let alone "more than enough." If you stop digging, our heart will die. Unless you pass the baton to someone else, who WILL keep up an active investigation, we are, in all our passionate resistence, lost. Brad, if you leave us for "glory," your real story will be lost - as will be your following.
COMMENT #9 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/15/2005 @ 1:31 pm PT...
Find out who at FDOT put the kabosh on the VPD's re-opened investigation. Then try to find out under whose orders they did that, or what reasoning they give for doing so.
I have to admit that I'm discouraged by the suggestion that the Yangs are the most likely suspects in this. Ray Lemme didn't say his investigation went "all the way to the top" of YEI, or China.
Maybe he only meant Florida, but even so, that implicates Jeb Bush, which is less than one step removed from the White House.
Let me restate something I said in the other thread: If you want public pressure to be applied in these matters, you have to interest the public. Corruption, even spying, won't do that.
In short: if it bleeds, it leads.
The silence about these matters from the Left side of the Blogosphere is deafening. I commend Brad F. for his tireless PR efforts of late. Which makes the strange blackout on the Left about these matters that much more odd to me.
I have not read Clint Curtis' book yet, but I plan to as soon as my copy arrives, which should come with a VHS of 'Court TV: Cops on Trial - Scapegoat or Murderer? Georgia vs. Cassotta', about the death of Donya Jones and former Valdosta Police Officer Cassotta.
A synopsis of the video states:
"In this series installment, an officer stands accused of murdering his ex-girlfriend and their two-year-old son, and of participating with other officers in a conspiracy to conceal incriminating material evidence."
Particularly interesting, from what another commenter said, was that the death of the officer's girlfriend was ruled suicide, until evidence of her strangulation came to light.
Similarly, the recently 'recovered' photos of FDOT IG Investigator Raymond C. Lemme appear to show trauma to the neck.
I may not be posting as frequently as I did on the other thread while I consider these two sources of information, but I would like to ask if anyone has access to a copy of the report Dateline NBC did on the Jones-Cassotta matter. If so, please indicate so in the comments of this thread. I would like to obtain a copy if at all possible.
Thank you, Brad and those who take these matters seriously.
COMMENT #10 [Permalink]
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Teresa
said on 3/15/2005 @ 4:10 pm PT...
The cognitive dissonance of this society reaches the left, too. The people can't face the fact that they are complete suckers. To see the truth would embarrass and shame them, especially the feelings around 911, which the whole society fell for and has a long way to go to extricate itself. The fear of facing their stupidity is greater that the fear surrounding the event. They would have to face the whole Terrorist Hoax. And the election sham. Instead they are up Michael Jackson's ass as an escape route.
This wheel has got to squeak incessantly, then squeal, then roar until it becomes unbearable, however long it takes and whatever the obstacles.
Back to the law of physics...crime seeks justice.
COMMENT #11 [Permalink]
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Peggy
said on 3/15/2005 @ 4:53 pm PT...
To catch the murderers, you need a sting. A well-planned, careful sting. Remember, numerous back-ups.
Someone told me that Laura Bush accidentally killed a boyfriend by driving over him with a car? Do you know anything about this? Is it true?
COMMENT #12 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 3/15/2005 @ 5:10 pm PT...
I think somebody should approach Ray Lemme brother who was the only person to say he doubted the "suicide" theory ,without "imediate family" stirring things up all efforts to re-open the Lemme file will be prevented by the "higher up's".
So much stinks about this case that you don't need to be a "rocket scientist" to realise "justice has NOT been seen to be done".
We need someone with credibility to present the "crime scene photo's" to Lemme's brother .Maybe Clinton Curtis could help with this presentation.
Do we have any ex-law ,police or Justice people following this thread who could offer some advise to get this case re-openned excluding any of the previous investigators ?
Is America still the land of the free or the land of lies?
Who will be next to die for the lies?
Anybody looking into wrong doings by anyone connected to this current adminstration should request police protection as a form of protest at the growing list of people killed in the line of duty..Gary Webb,Hunter.S.Thompson,Ray Lemme to name just a few.
Have the "people" totally lost control of THEIR goverment.
Or else WELCOME TO THE THIRD WORLD!
Define the word "RAPE" .
Don't forget to give your lawyer your "SUICIDE PASSWORD" so somebody will know you were not "DEPRESSED" !
http://whatreallyhappened.com/
repost from other thread.
Laura Bush run a stop sign I think and killed the other driver ,covered up by family and friends ,W snorts coke ,covered up by family and friends,W avoids draft ,covered up by family and friends,Saudi's invest in W OIL company ,covered up by family and friends,W lost election in 2000,covered up by family and friends,W stole election 2004,covered up by family and friends.
There's only on thing money doesn't buy and that poverty,are ya feeling lucky.
COMMENT #13 [Permalink]
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cheryl
said on 3/15/2005 @ 5:16 pm PT...
Hi Peg,
Here's the link, to Free Republic of all sites!
COMMENT #14 [Permalink]
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Teresa
said on 3/15/2005 @ 9:56 pm PT...
Peggy #11
This is indeed true. It was in an intersection and the driver of the other car was her fiance.
COMMENT #15 [Permalink]
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Mr.Murder
said on 3/16/2005 @ 3:00 am PT...
His signature for his hotel check-in features a loopy "Y" that is not redone in ANY of the seperate styled "y" writings in his note. Each of those cursive "y" figures lacks consistency as well. Whoever wrote that did so as a joke, make it so obvious it isn't his handwriting to scare other whistleblowers...
Someone taking the time to write a note to beloved would make everything formal and neat out of respect for loved ones. Otherwise there would be no note written.
This was either forced or forged, some other circumstance is involved. Most likely the note is coerced and the forgery finished by others, or an outright entire forgery.
It appears more towels are missing from the rack... someone else was there and cleaned up after finishing.
Most often in the course of these actions a person would have regrets as the action occurs, call others before the deal happens. Buyer's remorse would indicate blood on the phone, attempts to embellish the note further at blood loss stages, and general struggle signs with objects around the person. If you don't give a damn about living anymore, why the hell would you care about hotel furniture and decor?
Another death in the life of someone who may have been enabled to oust the Bush crime syndicate.
COMMENT #16 [Permalink]
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gwbmalecheerleader
said on 3/16/2005 @ 3:32 am PT...
Wow, I like it here, so many wonderfully inquisitive folks.
Excuse my simple 2 cents, but isn't it kinda crucial to question "WHO let the flashcards out?"
I mean, without THAT, where would this investigation be?
Again, perhaps that person deserves an "Apple"?
Heard the investigator in this case (that "lost" the flashcards) left to teach somewhere?
COMMENT #17 [Permalink]
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Mr.Murder
said on 3/16/2005 @ 3:54 am PT...
Remember no cieling photos. They can test spray the cieling, if he cut arteries under normal blood pressure conditions it would spray the cieling and leave patterns for a single person episode. Most likely he was drugged, as the coagulated blood shows.
So the trauma evidence does not match the method overall.
If the door was locked with an internal bolt, who had the room beside said person? Probably the same person who checked the room out.
There's no way he took that much time and order to kill self and left too much possibility of living. Most often suicides are done away from home but a place the person would feel no sense of "passing pain" to others.
He cared enough about family to write this, but not enough to avoid perhaps leaving a hotel worker with the task of finding? Most likely he would have driven away from house and done this deed outdoors.
Leaving his state to do this , having been a state employ, is quite odd as well. If he went to this stage to do so, much more certain outcome would be guaranteed by more gruesome form of exit.
To not stick with what he knows best, his state's land, where his family could recieve full closure from the service of help there, is also strange. Why deny a certainly better closure if you go to such other apparent great lengths?
The belt raised veins, and held him in place. Someone stood over him at the tub causing the trauma evidence via bruise, basically sat on him most of that time, pinning him over the tub and holding out the cut arm.
Embalmers often have to provide muscle tortion to make fluids circulate. Similar effect here. Pin him and physically massage trauma area to force the outcome desired, greater circulation and blood loss.
COMMENT #18 [Permalink]
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Teresa
said on 3/16/2005 @ 3:57 am PT...
The note was absolutely ridiculous. It was not a suicide note. And it couldn't have been coerced. It was too neat and controlled. Some nervousness would have been apparent if he were under the gun.
COMMENT #19 [Permalink]
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gwbmalecheerleader
said on 3/16/2005 @ 4:04 am PT...
Anyone ever see any comparison of how many Republican politicians/operatives turn up suicides, or plane crash accidents victims, compared to Democrats? Got a link?
I only recall Vince Foster during the 8 Clinton years.
Didn't Hale Boggs die in a plane crash (Warren commision member)
Carahan, Wellstone, any others?
Compared to how many Republican pols?
Suicides: H.Thomson, G. Webb, The fella during the Enron meltdown (remember him??), the woman that claimed GWB had raped her?
I'd like to know how many on this board suffered anyone committing suicide they personally know.
I'm 49, and have lost many close to me, through illness, accident and through homicide.
But I've never known anyone that committed suicide. Just seems WAY too many in too short a period, all connected in some way to Bush.
And in this way? Gosh, it takes big balls to gut yourself (sorry for the graphic description, but it boggles the mind to believe ANYONE depressed would also injure themselves in this way). Wouldn't you just do it with pills if YOU were depressed?
I've read that suicidal victims do so to punish those close to them, sometimes. I didn't get that drift in this story. But, I didn't get the drift that his family found this odd, either. Or, rather, no allegations from family of suspicions.
Did this investigator start divesting his personal possessions? I hear that is one sign of someone comtemplating suicide.
And no, I've NEVER returned to a hotel/motel room AFTER I've checked out at the counter. According to this article, he did. How? How did he get a key to room? Didn't he give room key to checkout counter, or was it a keycard, but it really doesn't matter, he should not have been able to go back in for no reason. Did he tell them he had left something in room?
Why have I never returned to a room I've checked out of? THINK!! If you return to a room, they will send someone to check and see if you TOOK anything from fridge/bar, before they settle with you, at least at hotels/motels I stay at. Of course, I stay at places in Asia, mostly. I was in Texass a few months ago, and the motels I stayed at there (La Quinta was one), didn't stock anything in a minibar, so I am unsure they sent someone to check the room before they check you out.
Is this SOP for this establishment? They DO check the room when you are checking out!!!
The hotel staff found him WHEN??
COMMENT #20 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/16/2005 @ 6:54 am PT...
Curiouser #9 "Find out who at FDOT put the kabosh on the VPD's re-opened investigation. Then try to find out under whose orders they did that, or what reasoning they give for doing so."
Indeed. I am even curious as to why it was re-opened. This could show a crack in the wall. It seems like the re-opening was someone speaking out of school or acting out of turn.
"I have to admit that I'm discouraged by the suggestion that the Yangs are the most likely suspects in this. Ray Lemme didn't say his investigation went "all the way to the top" of YEI, or China."
If you are in reference to my post #4 where I said, among other things, "The investigation Clift initiated was a retaliation. I think it originated outside of the FDOT.
Who did Yang call to initiate the retaliation, and who counselled them?"
The term initiate does not mean I think they have the power to do this alone. On the contrary you should know that I consider them pawns on the chessboard.
However, under investigative law certain things must exist for investigations to begin and continue. The Yang company provided testimony that bribery had occurred.
I do not think they came up with the idea themselves. They just put ink to paper thru their lawfirm contacts.
Most likely it was planned from higher up.
COMMENT #21 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/16/2005 @ 7:05 am PT...
Gwbmalecheerleader #20 The use of the arm slashing, being so very rare, leads me to believe that the perpetrators were getting instructions or had developed such techniques from a foreign cultural influence.
Somewhere knives and or cutting are more in the norm. I suspect chinese but am not sure.
Here in the US gunfire is #1 with hanging #2. So the Lemme scenario is not the norm.
Another interesting thing would be to find out what techniques hit men from the chinese culture use when they want to simulate a suicide to cover up a murder.
If that leads to a cultural fingerprint then we have moved a bit closer.
COMMENT #22 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/16/2005 @ 7:05 am PT...
Fred #15, I suppose that because Lemme was perhaps overworked AND they could use the Valdosta Keystone's and the Fleabag Inn as a backdrop, they'd be relatively safe. Plus, I read somewhere that a person with chronic medical problems sometimes go for suicide. Lemme may have fit enough of the bill to go ahead with the suicide.
If the note was meant to ease Mrs. Lemme's mind and provide closure, then the person perhaps knew and liked her? I go with Robert Clift on this part.
The 1234 Bulova does not appear to have been returned to the Mrs. (am I wrong on that?) and I wondered if it was even his - since he was a military reservist mayn't he have preferred military time-keeping watch? Maybe 1234 is a message to the Valdosta Keystones?
And just in case, let it be known that I am very happy.
COMMENT #23 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/16/2005 @ 7:41 am PT...
RE: post #6
Item #13 in that post proposes that the Florida model pre-2000, 2000, and thereafter as needed, was the model to later be used for Ohio.
Here is a link which says:
"TALLAHASSEE - Seven times during his reelection bid, Gov. Jeb Bush climbed aboard a private jet owned by National Century Financial Enterprises of Ohio, the once-high-flying health financing group now under federal investigation for multibillion-dollar fraud, campaign finance records show.
Bush also raised money at the tony Port Charlotte estate of National Century's former chief executive and founder, Lance Poulsen, 59. 11/26/02" (bold and italics added).
COMMENT #24 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/16/2005 @ 7:49 am PT...
Snoopy, I think the timing of the placement of Abreu (March 2003) - with a "clean as a whistle," background definitely merits consideration here. He is a direct link to Jeb. And neither of those two are going to do any dirty work ever and whatsoever. Especially considering the information about the "career" guy he replaced.
COMMENT #25 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/16/2005 @ 7:50 am PT...
The second and third rungs of the ladder (post #4) are linked together again in this link, which says:
"Lt. Gov. Frank Brogan and the Bush administration may have to face the serious ethics questions that continue to follow Florida House Speaker and candidate for Congress Tom Feeney. According to today's Daytona Beach News-Journal, Feeney sponsored a meeting between Yang Enterprises that included Lt. Gov. Brogan and Roy Cales, the former head of the State Technology Office."
Note that this links Yang into the rung at the very high places at #2 and #3.
It also adds another interesting player, in the sense of technology (election machines, and spy material to be shipped elsewhere, and lucrative contracts), who is named as "Roy Cales".
COMMENT #26 [Permalink]
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Deep Throat
said on 3/16/2005 @ 8:08 am PT...
Hi Dear All,
Just kidding about the moniker! It's just Czaragorn. But seriously, if we can get enough people scrolling through this neck of the woods, the new, improved Deep Throat (Deeper Throat? Deep and Throatier? Deeper, Throatier?) is bound to come out of the woodwork. He/She may of course remain anonymous, but can guide our investigation. Please make as many people as possible aware of this blog - eventually it'll reach the right eyes, and we'll start getting hints. NB: The hints will have to be subtle, since everyone knows TPTB are onto this blog like Tom Robbins's hobo on a ham sandwich. Also, I just had to take a break, step out into the garden to inspect the newly blooming snow drop and crocus pioneers, and get a breath of fresh air, because he who must not be named was just on NPR justifying the "skilled diplomat" Wolfie as president of the World Bank. Fortunately the fresh air kept me from puking... In any case, keep on posting and forwarding. Critical mass is just around the corner...
Love and Peace, see ya in Pepperland...
COMMENT #27 [Permalink]
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Billy
said on 3/16/2005 @ 8:13 am PT...
#17 'isn't it kinda crucial to question "WHO let the flashcards out?"'
I agree. The photos officially don't exist. They were suppressed for a reason, and leaked for the same reason. This, more than any other speculation, suggests that the circumstances of Mr. Lemme's death were not as straightforward as the police report makes out. If the case really was re-closed at the request of FDOT (not the family) that is also fairly irregular.
Still, Mr. Lemme's death may well have been suicide - no other hypothesis presented here is any more convincing, if it was staged it was done by real professionals - and the police need not be part of a conspiracy - they may simply have decided it would be less trouble for all concerned not to ask too many awkward questions. After all, if it was suicide they would just be wasting their time and causing the family pain, and if it wasn't they would plainly get themselves into a great deal of trouble.
But somebody needs to ask those questions now, and Google is not going to have the answers.
Anyone know a good investigative reporter in Florida or Georgia who could do some FOIA requests, speak to the police, the coroner, the undertaker & the witnesses, get hold of the telephone records, show the photos to an expert forensic pathologist, speak to Mr. Lemme's brother and his former colleagues, find out who at FDOT requested the case be reclosed, find out what Lemme's 'big investigation' was, check the receipt dates with the credit card company, track down the mysterious payphone etc.?
That would be a start...
COMMENT #28 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/16/2005 @ 9:25 am PT...
Speaking of the need for a Deep Throat, exactly how anonymous are our posts? Could anyone posting here be identified, located, etc., somehow (barring giving out identifying information)?
Maybe 1234 was the warning to VPD not to pursue?
COMMENT #29 [Permalink]
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czaragorn
said on 3/16/2005 @ 9:57 am PT...
I dunno, Miss P, but I could easily hop a flight to Amsterdam and go to an Internet cafe there and send a comment to this site and be back in the office real quick, any old time (Amsterdam is way cool, by the way), and there ain't a sleuth in the world who could pin it on me - OOOOOOPS!!! Guess I just gave it all away. Oh well, a trip to Amsterdam sounds nice...
COMMENT #30 [Permalink]
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czaragorn
said on 3/16/2005 @ 10:09 am PT...
Of course, that said, all of us here have already been identified, residents and non-residents of Bradville alike... Thus, the only solution is, PASS IT ON!!!
COMMENT #31 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/16/2005 @ 10:14 am PT...
Miss Persistent #29 -
I think it's fairly safe to assume that supposedly anonymous posts anywhere on the Web are not anonymous at all. This said, there's a caveat: that, although everyone is traceable, NOT everyone is worth the tracing. Speculation on sensitive subjects is one thing. Insider knowledge will trigger the alarm button.
COMMENT #32 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/16/2005 @ 10:26 am PT...
Peg C., then I guess we shouldn't hold out hope for a Deep Throat appearance...
COMMENT #33 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/16/2005 @ 11:03 am PT...
Miss Persistent #33 -
Unless, as Czaragorn suggests, it is done at a remote location, or unless the DT poster is very good a disguising the fact that HIS speculation is anything but conjecture. Anyway, Clint Curtis is a bona fide DT on another issue and he has managed to stay (I assume) among the living by being visible. Perhaps someone else could try the same thing.
COMMENT #34 [Permalink]
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peterpont
said on 3/16/2005 @ 11:38 am PT...
Speaking of Clint Curtis, we have had no news lately as to his whereabouts or what he is doing.
Also;what information is avalible on his testimony to the FBI, and the congressional appearance?
It is just sitting in a pile of papers?
What say Brad-??
COMMENT #35 [Permalink]
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Snoopy
said on 3/16/2005 @ 11:59 am PT...
Dredd #26,
That's an important observation. Roy Cales' involvement and departure from the State Technology Office is another red flag and warrants further research. the key dates related to him should be added to the timeline.
Seems like everybody "gets out while the gettin' is good" in this debacle. He may have been forced to be involved by Gov. Jeb and Tom Feeney because Cales was the representative of the Technology Office and his stamp of approval was needed. The circumstances around his departure may indicate whether Cales was a willing accomplice or not. Another noteworthy departure? Lt. Gov. Frank Brogan resigned to be the President of Florida Atlantic University in Boca Raton, Florida before Jeb's second term got underway. The stench of the graft and corruption must have gotten to him.
As an aside, here's an interesting article about Brogan's compensation at FAU.
link
Food for thought: Having the assistance of the "right kind of person" in the State Technology Office would facilitate access to confidential documents and sensitive email. Someone with system administrator privileges could have surreptitiously kept up with the progress of investigations in the IG Office or elsewhere.
Miss P. #25,
I think the timing of Tom Barry's departure is very suspicious. Let's add it to the already long list of unusual circumstances.
RLM,
Regarding who to write in Florida (from the previous thread), perhaps Rep. Alcee Hastings or Rep. Robert Wexler, both of South Florida. Rep. Wexler is on the House Judiciary Committee, along with Rep. John Conyers of Michigan. Oh, by the way, Rep. Tom Feeney, the subject of much of the discussion here, is also on the Judiciary Committee.
COMMENT #36 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/16/2005 @ 12:09 pm PT...
Does anyone think it remotely possible that any of the evidence citing Lemme in Valdosta on a Sunday or before work on a Monday could have been planned (or fabricated) in order to make the death something that was not a "company assignment" and therefore not qualified for FDOT's travel accident insurance?
COMMENT #37 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/16/2005 @ 12:22 pm PT...
I know we are focusing on the bigger picture here, but I can't resist.
This idea hit me when reading this post: #224
Concerning the Bulova watch that was stopped at 12:34, could that have been the "mark" left at the scene used by a professional to prove it was his work, to collect pay? It could be, but of course, it's speculation. Yet, worthy of examination.
For reference I came across this extensive discussion concerning all the facets of being a professional killer, and I found some cold logic in them:
"Faked suicides are very tricky too. A left-handed man will not shoot himself with his right hand. A man who jumps off a building to his death will not hit the pavement twenty feet from that building. Distance alone will indicate whether he jumped or was thrown. A person with a phobia for heights would choose a suicide method other than jumping from a building., And many a hanging has been discovered to be a result of foul play because the knot was tied in the wrong direction, or because there was no evidence of a ladder or other way for the victim to get his head into the noose.
Contrary to popular belief, most suicides do not leave notes. Usually these people are so depressed that all they want is out. So if your mark is not visibly depressed and all seems to be going right with him in the world, immediate suspicion may result from his death."
Raymond was not showing signs of depression. He was a little "stressed", as his wife declared, but we all would have killed ourselves by now if a little "stress" at work was all it took to push us over the edge. No. Stress could not have been the cause. That was just the Police and Mary Ann searching for any possible explanation as to why he did himself in. More than likely, this stretch was to help Mary Ann, as well as the Police, to make sense of Raymond's apparent suicide.
Ultimately, Raymond showed ZERO signs of depression. Now, that fact could be used as reason to argue against the theory of a professional hit. If a killer was going to choose a method of dispatching his target that showed no signs of depression, suicide would not be a wise choice as it might arouse suspicion. True, if the killer made the choice. Not true, if the killer was fulfilling a specific requirement made to him by his employer.
However, Raymond did leave a note, which does not happen in most suicides. Because of that fact, when ever there is a note, it should arouse suspicion of foul play by the Police. Yet, this could conversly suggest it was not a professional hit, as a pro should know that most suiciders don't write notes.
Taking those facts into consideration, combine them with the marks of time in this case. First, 12:34, on the Bulova watch. Second, there is the mark of time, 8:10am, on the note. Independently, these 2 items seem to make sense. The time on the watch...maybe Raymond was...marking the point at which he decided he was going to go through with it? The time on the note, he wanted to mark this significant moment he writes his last goodbye.
Taken together, however, those times make no sense, chronologically. According to his wife, Raymond left his house early Monday morning. His watch was stopped at 12:34 6/30/03. Bulova dates on their watches are designed to spin over within 10 minutes after midnight. This means, more than likely, the time the watch stopped was 12:34PM, Monday. Noon. Is this the moment he decides he's going through with it? Okay. Fine, but then why would he write the note in his book, on the desk, almost 20 hours later, especially if he was so obsessed with "time"? Suddenly 12:34 wouldn't seem to be so significant.
Remember, the police noted the bed was untouched, so Raymond didn't sleep all night? No, because the handwriting in the note wasn't sloppy or tired looking. So he slept on the floor, or he didn't write the note? Which is it? Neither, if he was already dead.
Finally, theses conflicts lead me to believe that the 12:34 time means nothing to Raymond. So, why is it there? It's a mark of an assassin who knows Police note times found on time pieces at crime scenes in their reports. The police report becomes the invoice to the employer of the assassin.
If it was an assassin, why did he choose "suicide" if Raymond wasn't "depressed", and why would he plant a "note" if that is generally not advised? It wasn't the assassin's choice. He was ordered to make it happen that way, because the employer(s) of the killer are people that know Raymond, and they also know his wife, and ONLY with a suicide can there be a suicide note to Mary Ann, a way for her to have closure. The employer(s) of the hit don't like to think of themselves as "savages", rather, they like to think they are "good people". The employer of the hit had nothing against Mary Ann. Raymond Lemme was just getting too close in his investigation and they knew he could never be persuaded to stop. He was a good man, but he had to go. And out of guilt for Mary Ann, they wanted to make it seem like Raymond left by choice.
Also, just curious, would Raymond's brother know if Raymond hated the sight of blood? If he did, then bleeding to death would not be the method of choice for Ray. And: Why would someone who is supposedly so neat and orderly, choose such a self observable, messy method of suicide?
Okay, now back to the bigger picture.
COMMENT #38 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/16/2005 @ 12:46 pm PT...
I spent yesterday doing a little research on names of key players. I found an article about Shannon Floyd, who in March of 2002 completed a prestigious year-long course at the National Firearms Examiner Academy in Washington, DC.
VPD Chief Frank Simmons said "Detective Floyd's training will further strengthen our crime scene unit and improve our ability to solve cases."
It just sounds to me like she was serious about her career as a Detective.
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
April 10, 2002
MEDIA RELEASE: 04-02-04
CONTACT: Crissy Staley
Telephone: 229-259-3548
Fax: 229-333-1838
E-mail: cstaley@valdostacity.com
http://www.valdostacity....ressreleases/ACFA8BB.doc
Floyd graduates from National Firearms Examiner Academy
Valdosta, Ga. --- Detective Shannon Floyd, a three year veteran of the Valdosta Police Department, recently graduated from the National Firearms Examiner Academy (NFEA), which is hosted by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF). The yearlong course is the first academy of its kind in the field of firearms and toolmark identification, and selected only 10 students from law enforcement agencies across the country for its third class.
"It was an honor to have one of our officers selected to participate in a federal training program," said Chief Frank Simons, Valdosta Police Department. "Detective Floyd's training will further strengthen our crime scene unit and improve our ability to solve cases."
The course consisted of four phases. The first phase consisted of four months of research and technical papers. For phase two Floyd traveled to the ATF Forensic Science Lab in Washington, D.C., for 15 weeks of hands on training. Phase three, Floyd returned to Valdosta were she worked on simulated case examinations, and the fourth and final phase, Floyd traveled back to Washington, D.C. to ATF Headquarters for a two week follow up school to present her research projects. During the follow up course Floyd participated in simulated court testimony in the Federal Courthouse in Alexandria, Virginia in conjunction with current federal and state prosecutors and defense attorneys.
-more-
COMMENT #39 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/16/2005 @ 1:08 pm PT...
Dredd and everyone:
Please post dates and web addresses (whenever possible) to go with the info copied from articles. TIA (Do you have the info for your post #26?)
Dredd #26 & Snoopy #36 re:Cales
I don't know if I've missed it in what's already been posted, but I did some research on Cales yesterday. He quit FDOT around July of 2001.
Has anyone researched his mentioned attorney Stephen Dobson?
07/25/01
Florida CIO under investigation for grand theft
AND
Ex-tech chief to reject deal
Roy Cales, the governor's tech chief who quit last year after being charged with felony theft and forgery, will reject a deal that would, for the second time, wipe his record clean.
Cales' attorney, Stephen Dobson, said they are rejecting the deal because his client is innocent. "If you didn't do anything wrong, and you didn't commit a crime, then you shouldn't accept any kind of plea," Dobson said.
.....Bush had consistently defended Cales as the best pick for the $95,000-per-year position, despite a bankruptcy and another grand theft charge in Cales' past. That charge, that Cales embezzled $1,800 from a lumber company he worked for in 1985, was dropped after Cales admitted to the crime and repaid the money.
The State Technology Office works on behalf of all state agencies, awarding millions of dollars' worth of complicated computer hardware, software and consulting contracts. A planned transfer of 1,760 technology workers and a roughly $600 million budget has been postponed several times by legislative committees dissatisfied with the accountability of the office. **more**
So Mr. Cales was acquitted.
Ain't it great to have friends who can make those annoying legal problems go away?
Former state tech chief acquitted of grand theft
©Associated Press
March 13, 2003
TALLAHASSEE --- Roy Cales, who once ran the state's technology office for Gov. Jeb Bush, has been found innocent on the grand theft charge that caused him to step down.
COMMENT #40 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/16/2005 @ 1:17 pm PT...
Well crap - my html didn't work on my links - will paste here:
From my post #39
07/25/01
Florida CIO under investigation for grand theft
link
Ex-tech chief to reject deal
link
Finally:
Former state tech chief acquitted of grand theft
©Associated Press
March 13, 2003
link
Sorry about that - wonder why my code didn't work this time? I'm using the same as usual. Will try again - busy at the moment.
COMMENT #41 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/16/2005 @ 1:20 pm PT...
Also this article:
Audit: Tech office can't justify deals
By Associated Press
Published July 29, 2004
link
TALLAHASSEE - A scathing audit says the State Technology Office may have improperly awarded big contracts to vendors who used politically connected lobbyists, but officials said Wednesday the agency has since changed the way it does business.
The 20-page audit said the Technology Office, created by Gov. Jeb Bush nearly six years ago, failed to provide even basic justification for many of the deals.
The audit showed more than three dozen companies had some interest in doing work with the agency, but the contracts appeared to be designed to give an advantage to two - Accenture and BearingPoint - and included clauses that gave them opportunities for price increases and renegotiations.
The audit said "the competitive process may have been circumvented" in awarding contracts to the two companies, which are responsible for a number of state operations, including the state's Web site. Both have longtime Bush friends and political supporters lobbying on their behalf, although those relationships were not mentioned in the audit.
Auditor General Bill Monroe recommended that at least seven deals worth more than $300-million be renegotiated to make sure the state's taxpayers get their money's worth.
The technology office's head, Simone Marstiller, said Wednesday the renegotiations have begun and the companies are cooperating. She denied that the contracts were awarded based on their lobbyists.
-more-
COMMENT #42 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/16/2005 @ 1:37 pm PT...
Questions :
Did Lemme have personal life insurance and did the widow get a pay out?
Who took control of Lemme computer and files at his office after his death?
Did Lemme own a laptop computer?
What happened to his home computer after his death ,was any attempt made by FDOT to recover any file related to his work on his home computer?
How long had Lemme been working on this case?
Do FDOT Investigators work alone or do they have offsiders?
Did any new staff join Lemme's office in the weeks/months before his death and leave in the weeks/months after his death?
Who re-openned the case ,who shut down the case?
Who continued the work (case load) Lemme was assigned at the time of his death?
I find it odd that these Investigators would work as "lone wolfs" and would think a team aproach would be more likely.
COMMENT #43 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/16/2005 @ 1:46 pm PT...
A contact for us might be :
Longwood Democrat Harry Jacobs
Saturday, October 12, 2002
Click Here
E-mails at odds with Feeney denials
By LAURA ZUCKERMAN (laura.zuckerman@news-jrnl.com)
Staff Writer
TALLAHASSEE --- Despite repeated claims that he never used his influence to benefit his client, House Speaker Tom Feeney arranged at least one meeting between state officials and an Oviedo computer firm that was having trouble with its state contract.
E-mails obtained by The Daytona Beach News-Journal through the state's public records law contradict statements made by the Oviedo Republican to the state Ethics Commission, which cleared him of ethical missteps surrounding his ties to his client, Yang Enterprises.
Yang's dealings with the state have been at the heart of an ongoing dispute over questionable invoices in its $8 million technology contract with the Florida Department of Transportation.
Longwood Democrat Harry Jacobs has attacked Feeney's relationship with the firm in the race for a congressional seat that includes part of Volusia County.
Feeney, who doubles as Yang's general counsel and lobbyist in Orange County, told ethics investigators that he had not spoken to "anyone at FDOT or the State Technology Office concerning the Yangs."
***MORE***
COMMENT #44 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/16/2005 @ 1:52 pm PT...
Another possible contact:
Janet Reno
COMMENT #45 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/16/2005 @ 1:56 pm PT...
I'm curious about Lemme's meds found at the scene - were pills missing for the days in question?
COMMENT #46 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/16/2005 @ 2:13 pm PT...
More on Harry Jacobs
WESH.com
Local Company Claims Campaign Ad False
Lawyer Files Cease-And-Desist Order
UPDATED: 11:40 a.m. EDT October 8, 2002
OVIEDO, Fla. --- A NewsChannel 2-Orlando Sentinel poll shows a big gap in the race for a new congressional seat in Central Florida.
District 24 covers parts of Volusia, Seminole, Orange and Brevard counties, WESH NewsChannel 2 reported.
The poll shows that Republican State House Speaker Tom Feeney would get the vote of 51 percent of those asked, while Democrat Harry Jacobs would get 32 percent; 17 percent remain undecided.
Meanwhile, a local company said it's getting caught in the middle as the two candidates battle it out.
(Democrat Harry Jacobs) A political advertisement for Jacobs claims that Yang Enterprises, an information technology company that employs more than 200 people at the Kennedy Space Center, benefitted from a cozy relationship with Feeney, their attorney and lobbyist.
"Maybe it's a coincidence that Feeney's top client, Yang Enterprises, got an $8 million state contract," the advertisement stated.
Company President Li-Woan Yang said the ad's innuendos, which are being seen by thousands of television viewers, are false.
***more***
COMMENT #47 [Permalink]
...
Peg C
said on 3/16/2005 @ 2:15 pm PT...
Kira #43 -
Good post, Kira.
About the "meds," they most probably wouldn't have been anything drastic. Anti-cholesterol, anti-plaque stuff, with maybe some nitrogycerin thrown in for accasional chest pain. A skipped day is no big deal.
COMMENT #48 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/16/2005 @ 2:19 pm PT...
Yangs still involved as of May 07, 2004 with Bush re-election.
Winning the War on Terror Tour event
Where:
Yang Enterprises1420 Alafaya TrailOviedo FL, 32765
When:
Event Begins: Friday, May 07, 2004 3:30 pmEvent Ends: Friday, May 07, 2004
What:
Event Information:U.S. Rep. Tom Feeney (R-FL) continues the Bush-Cheney '04 Winning the War on Terror Tour in Florida. Florida is one of many states hosting the Bush-Cheney '04 Winning the War on Terror Tour. The tour will highlight John Kerry's inconsistent support for our troops and his troubling record on national security.
More Info: Contact: FL Bush Team
Cost: Free
COMMENT #49 [Permalink]
...
Peg C
said on 3/16/2005 @ 2:25 pm PT...
Kira -
You're framing this case very nicely! What cache are you using for your research?
COMMENT #50 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/16/2005 @ 2:39 pm PT...
Peg C - I'm just googling (if that's what you mean by "what cache."
COMMENT #51 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/16/2005 @ 2:44 pm PT...
Peg C #47 -
About the meds:
Lemme had 2 'scripts with him for his heart:
COMMENT #620 (our previous thread)
...KIRA said on 3/14/2005 @ 12:54pm PT...
The 2 medications found, according to Shannon Floyd's narrative report 7/24/03:
1. Ecotrin - "The Safer Aspirin"
2. Pravachol - Same as Prevastatin - to reduce the risk of heart attack
My question is this:
If he took his regular dosages --- WOULD HE BE CONTEMPLATING SUICIDE??? Why take them if he was going to "check out?"
COMMENT #52 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/16/2005 @ 2:54 pm PT...
More RE:Harry Jacobs
DECISION 2000
SCOTT MARTELLE
11/26/2000
Los Angeles Times
Home Edition
Page A-18
Copyright 2000 / The Times Mirror Company
Two legal experts said Saturday that a Seminole County judge should withdraw from hearing a lawsuit challenging 17,000 absentee ballots key to deciding the presidential election in Florida.
At issue are revelations that a worker for Circuit Judge Debra Nelson's election campaign this summer had entered voter identification numbers on absentee ballot applications that the campaign sent to individual voters.
Similar acts by two Republican activists lie at the heart of a lawsuit by Harry Jacobs, a Democrat and local personal injury lawyer, against Seminole County's supervisor of elections, Sandy Goard.
Jacobs is asking that all 17,000 of the county's absentee ballots be thrown out because Goard allowed the Republicans, working out of her office, to correct 4,700 Republican absentee ballot requests she had already rejected. The two Republicans spent 10 days filling in missing voter-identification numbers, and the ballot requests were then accepted.
-more-
COMMENT #53 [Permalink]
...
Snoopy
said on 3/16/2005 @ 3:05 pm PT...
Kudos Kira! You're doing excellent research!
That discovery you listed in #48 ought to be enough to trugger a congressional investigation against Feeney. Seems like Feeney believes he can get away anything. A wiser person would distance themself after the facts were brought to light.
COMMENT #54 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/16/2005 @ 3:07 pm PT...
WHOS BEEN PLAYING WITH "HTLM" PAGE SETUP IS WAY TO WIDE
{I think that was caused by some wonky HTML code. To fix it, we have to go in and edit the comments. Nobody's been playing with the layout! And it's fixed now. Cheers! WP}
COMMENT #55 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/16/2005 @ 3:08 pm PT...
Still trying to find Harry Jacobs' location TODAY...keep running into articles that make me think we SHOULD contact him.
Sierra Club Endorsements
Harry Jacobs For Congress
The Sierra Club is proud to endorse Harry Jacobs for the District 24 Congressional seat. The District 24 seat was one of two new Florida Congressional seats the state gained due to Florida's explosive growth.
In Brevard, District 24 includes parts of Cocoa and Merritt Island, and all of Port St. John, Titusville, Mims and Scotsmoor. It also includes parts of Orange, Seminole, and Volusia counties. Jacobs, an attorney and former Vice Mayor of Altamonte Springs, has taken strong stands on all of Sierra Club's positions and policies. Among his top environmental priorities are Environmental Justice, Species and Habitat protection, and preserving wetlands. He supports legislation to make it easier for citizens to learn what toxins are being put in their communities, their air and their water while fighting to reduce the levels of those toxins and to clean them up. Harry Jacobs has pledged to vote to repair the flaws with the current international trade agreements to ensure that these trade agreements do not continue to compromise environmental, health and safety standards.
Jacobs has strongly criticized the Bush administration's shortsighted energy policy, which includes drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR), and its lack of leadership of global warming, including opposition to the Kyoto Treaty.
The Jacobs campaign needs our grassroots help in order to win. If you can volunteer with activities such as phone banking and distributing literature door-to-door, you can contact the campaign directly at (407)
862-8442, campaign@jacobsforcongress.org (web site, www.jacobsforcongress.org) or contact Sierra Central Florida Group Political Co-Chair Cecilia Height at (407) 657-9582 or cheight@cfl.rr.com or, locally Pete Kostrzewa at (321) 254-1572 or kostrzewa@earthlink.net. Brevard voters are reminded to get out and vote for Harry Jacobs on November 5th!
COMMENT #56 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/16/2005 @ 3:13 pm PT...
MMIIXX - when did page get so wide? I wouldn't have noticed it because my screen set-up shows it just fine, but I looked back at our previous threads & it is indeed much wider than that one.
Is that something Peg C or another of our brilliant techs can do or is it only controlled from Brad's end?
COMMENT #57 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/16/2005 @ 3:26 pm PT...
OK - Here's current info for our Harry Jacobs:
Jacobs & Goodman PA, Altamonte Springs, FL
Contact Us
Jacobs & Goodman, P.A., accepts clients and referrals in all areas of personal injury and wrongful death in Florida and throughout the United States.
We would be privileged if you would contact us.
Se habla español.
Our Office:
Jacobs & Goodman, PA
890 State Road 434 North
Altamonte Springs, Fl 32714
Phone:
(800) 226-2949 Toll-Free
(407) 788-2949 in Orlando
Fax:
(407) 788-1378
(407) 778-8628
COMMENT #58 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/16/2005 @ 3:42 pm PT...
Kira #39 Ok, we can start narrowing dates on posts.
The story flow here covers about a decade. But the Clift events attached to the Lemme death are half of that.
And you are right, we need to work backwards from the Lemme death.
Will watch it more closely.
But note that because one name drops out at a particular time does not drop out that office. So we need to keep track of the offices.
Note that the #2 player on the who's who ladder established the technology office. That office generated flak almost from day one. Names came and went. But the office remains.
That is because technology is a prime mover in the high tech fraud of today's world.
Thanks millions Kira for jumping in to this thread. This one is gonna be huge.
COMMENT #59 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/16/2005 @ 5:30 pm PT...
Awesome work Kira, high ten!
Re: #39 on Dobson, the attorney for Cales. Very interesting advice from an attorney, hadn't heard that one before. But, I guess, if the punishment is light (if any) then one can save the reputation by, uh, taking the 5th in that way. Cagey. That's what it boils down to. Right Dredd? Refusal to answer any questions is becoming just a tad commonplace in this administration, isnt' it.
Peg C., it would have been nice to know how many meds were gone (or not) from the freaking container wouldn't it? For example, if all of Sunday was there (refilled) and only Monday morning gone (or none gone) it would be quite telling information. Blame it on the Valdosta Fleabag Investigators. Of course, like everything else, it could have been a purposeful omission.
Still thinking about the "fix" for Sunday and who would have benefitted by having that look like a check-in day. Seems FDOT might have insurance troubles if their guys off themselves (or someone get's caught for killing them) while on duty. It would be nice to know their insurance information.
COMMENT #60 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/16/2005 @ 5:32 pm PT...
Dredd #58
I wasn't saying we shouldn't look at Cales because he dropped out. Just that he did. Also, look at Cales' history for committing fraud - several instances - which puts him into a category of "easy" to use.
My request for dates and links to be included is for me personally (and others who do this) to be able to study the articles in their entirety as well as to keep a record of where I got it.
Technology is a prime mover in this piece of the puzzle and I'm interested in any "wireless" technology which might have come into play during the "fixing" of the 2004 elections or in otherwise shaping the Power Play/Base.
I'm including here excerpts from an article (very long) which provides a bit of insight re: IT and the bushies.
Livin' La Vida Boca
From: Issue 46 May 2001, Page 155 By: David Dorsey
(Jeff Bonar)...spent most of last year creating a new wireless software program out of a spare bedroom in his home in Delray Beach, Florida, anticipating the need for venture capital, and hoping to change the world --- though maybe not in that order. He shares these ambitions with a cadre of entrepreneurs in the region: technologists, visionaries, sun worshippers --- people living the good life.
Bonar knows that his future is anything but assured, yet he believes that he's in the right place at the right time: Palm Beach County, where elections stall and electronic startups can still bootstrap small fortunes out of great ideas.
...Bonar's wireless firm, Mobilelements Inc. (formerly JumpStart Wireless Corp.)
....They live at the epicenter of a new age in computing, one that will arrive when Web-based application services, fiber-optic networks, and wireless technology create universal connectivity with nearly total freedom of movement and virtually unlimited bandwidth.
...Bonar earned his chops as a software wizard for IBM. Now a free agent, he is selling a monthly service to small businesses that uses cell phones to link frontline employees --- maintenance workers, delivery people, anyone who travels a lot --- to an Internet application that guides and tracks their workday. .... The future may have its address here in South Florida.
...Jeff Kline (founder of Ameritrend Corp. which was later sold to Danka Business Systems in 1996)...Now president and CEO of Accris Corp., a Web-development and data-storage company in Boca Raton, ... where the Internet Coast movement was conceived.
...Scott Adams (Hiway Technologies)..With the help of four Florida-based venture-capital firms, he formed Cenetec to incubate the most promising high-tech startups in the region. Adams and Kline became the point men for the entire Internet Coast movement, which seemed to crystallize around them on its own.
...It was when they met Larry Pelton (President of the Business Development Board of Palm Beach County) that things started to gel. He commissioned the Stanford Research Institute to study the South Florida economy. The studies identified six industries with the most potential for growth. The IT/communications cluster was among the most significant
...Adams and Kline recruited Richard Paul-Hus, vice president of business development at Hypower Inc., a small construction-services firm in Fort Lauderdale that lays fiber-optic cable in the region. Deeply involved in Republican politics, Paul-Hus served on the finance committee for Governor Jeb Bush's campaign and had clout with the governor's IT task force. He helped set up a meeting with Bush and agreed to spearhead a committee devoted to getting a NAP built.
...Paul-Hus arranged for Kline to meet with Julia Johnson, who heads up IT Florida, the governor's task force. "She just lit up," Kline says. "She started to contribute ideas. She came down to Boca, and we explained the major engines behind the growth along the Internet Coast. She agreed that the governor should have his first cyber-town meeting here, so she set up a meeting with him."
When he arrived, Bush was already fired up. It turned out that he had just read a Wall Street Journal article that morning about centers of high-tech innovation around the country. The story snubbed Florida.
"That article couldn't have been better timed," Kline says. "As we started talking, Bush got more excited. He had 30 minutes blocked out for our meeting. His assistant kept coming in and saying that he had to move on, but Bush kept saying no. He kept jumping out of his seat and going over to the bookshelf. He was excited. We were excited. He asked us if we needed money. We told him that we just needed his support. We asked him to write to all of the major telecommunications companies and tell them that Florida is serious about building a NAP. We told him that we needed this effort to be backed by corner-office or top-level support."
"Done," Bush said. "Email me a list of whom I need to talk to."
"We sent him the phone numbers of all of the CEOs at the major telecoms," Kline says. "He legitimized the whole thing."
...What happened in that room was essentially a universal and simultaneous flash of insight in hundreds of brains at all of the largest telecommunications companies. It was a vision of immense profit. The southern tip of the state is already a hub for transoceanic fiber-optic cable --- a globally centralized portal for all Internet traffic in Africa, the Caribbean, Latin America, North America, and southern Europe. Much of the infrastructure is already in place, and yet, until this meeting, the telecoms simply hadn't recognized that a tier-one NAP in South Florida could link all of that fiber-optic cable --- and most of North America --- to an explosion of e-commerce in the Southern Hemisphere over the next decade.
--MORE-- (Really, a must read)
===================
Jeff Kline
Founder, President & CEO
Accrisoft, Inc.
Jeff Kline is the founder, CEO, and President of Accrisoft Corporation, a software development company that specializes in web portals and content management solutions. Prior to this, Mr. Kline was the co-founder and CEO of Ameritrend Corporation, where he developed the concept of the totally integrated office. In 1990 Inc. Magazine recognized Ameritrend as the one of the fastest growing companies in the United States. In 1996 Danka Industries, the second largest imaging company in the world, acquired Ameritrend. Mr. Kline began his career in 1983 at Burroughs Corporation in Cleveland, Ohio, and became one of their top three sales representatives in the country before transferring to Boca Raton, Florida. As the youngest manager in the division’s history, he successfully engineered two turn-around operations. In addition Mr. Kline is one of the original pioneers and co-founders of the InternetCoast. The InternetCoast is the tri-county organization whose mission is to establish South Florida as a world-class technology region. He also serves on the following boards: the InternetCoast, InternetCoast Institute, Emergin, Greater Miami Chamber of Commerce, Enterprise Florida TEC Leadership Council, the Spanish River Christian School, and the Emerging Technologies Center of the Americas (ETCOTA) of Miami-Dade Community College. Mr. Kline is a strong believer in community involvement.
=================
Arthur Anderson
Of course we all remember Arthur Andersen from the Enron debacle:
Originally founded in 1950 as a traditional accounting and tax business, Accenture (formerly Andersen Consulting) created the start of business consulting as it is known today, in 1989. Accenture is now among the most influential business and technology consulting entities. Since 1998, Accenture's annual revenues have grown from just more than $1 billion to $8.3 billion. In addition, the firm serves more than 85 of the Fortune 100 largest global public companies and many of the world's leading governments. For more information, visit Accenture at www.accenture.com.
===
Accenture
Accenture, a New York company, was involved in creating a database of felons and dead people to help counties take them off voting rolls, but that database turned out to be so flawed - it omitted many Hispanics, for one thing - that Bush scrapped it earlier this month.
===
(Remember Bahrami took the place of Roy Cales)
Florida to stay outsourcing course
02/23/04
By WILLIAM WELSH
CIO's departure raises concerns about MyFlorida technology program
The sudden resignation Feb. 4 of state Chief Information Officer Kim Bahrami stunned industry observers and raised concerns that the state would abolish the independent State Technology Office or make changes in the MyFlorida Alliance outsourcing project.
Six months ago, Bahrami's office awarded contracts worth about $140 million over seven years to Accenture Ltd. of Hamilton, Bermuda, and BearingPoint Inc. of McLean, Va., for the ambitious initiative, which involves the consolidation and sharing of technology resources to eliminate redundancies across state government.
...The MyFlorida project has given IT infrastructure outsourcing "a national presence and exposure it didn't have before," said John Goggin, vice president and director of government strategies for the market research firm Meta Group Inc., Stamford, Conn. "It's leading in the direction a lot of states are going to have to go."
... Barry Webster, Accenture's lead partner for the Florida government practice.
link
Posted on Tue, May. 28, 2002
Tech firms donated to Republicans
Companies were cited in comptroller's critical audit
By Nancy Cook Lauer
DEMOCRAT CAPITOL BUREAU CHIEF
Five companies whose contracts were questioned by Comptroller Bob Milligan in a scathing audit of the State Technology Office donated $44,800 to the Florida Republican Party and candidates poised to make decisions about technology purchases.
Lobbyists for those companies gave an additional $26,080, according to a Tallahassee Democrat analysis of 131,890 contributions of $200 or more reported to the state Division of Elections during the 2000 election cycle and 74,004 recorded so far for 2002.
The analysis found contributions from Accenture LLP, Gartner Inc., Information Systems of Florida, KPMG Consulting, Oracle and their corporate officials and lobbyists. Lobbyists in Tallahassee generally have more than one client, so not all their contributions can be attributed directly to the technology companies. But their contributions are important because they help lobbyists gain access to decision-makers on behalf of their clients.
Most of the contributions went to the state Republican Party; the other recipients include Gov. Jeb Bush, Education Commissioner Charlie Crist, Treasurer Tom Gallagher and former Senate President Toni Jennings, now chairwoman of Workforce Florida Inc.
===================
I hope these articles help. /kira
COMMENT #61 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/16/2005 @ 6:31 pm PT...
Jeb Bush is to Florida as Ken Lay is to Enron
The Tallahassee Democrat
Posted on Mon, Mar. 04, 2002
By Tom Rossin
SPECIAL TO THE DEMOCRAT
It seems Gov. Jeb Bush spends most of his time these days running from one place to another to refute analyses, reports and polls that show his lack of leadership has run Florida's economy into a ditch and broken the back of our public education system - reports from such left-wing think tanks as the Florida Chamber of Commerce that is.
Just as Ken Lay hid Enron's fiscal mismanagement from employees and investors, it seems our governor will go to any lengths to mislead Floridians about how the state's economy has gone from surpluses to deficits on his watch.
When Jeb Bush took the reigns of power nearly four years ago he spoke of lofty goals such as creating jobs, more efficient government and a world-class education system. Now, near the end of his term, we are back to deficit spending; our school system is at the bottom of the national pile and government graft has become of the order of the day.
After promising the most ethical administration in history, Gov. Bush has overseen corruption and nepotism run amok in his administration. It is now estimated that nearly 40 percent of our $48 billion dollar state budget gets kicked back in the form of contracts with private companies - many of which employ former Bush staffers.
-more-
COMMENT #62 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/16/2005 @ 6:32 pm PT...
oops - what did I do?
{It's ok, Kira. I fixed a few things for you. Don't worry. You're learning fast! WP}
COMMENT #63 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/16/2005 @ 6:33 pm PT...
COMMENT #64 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/16/2005 @ 6:34 pm PT...
Kira #60 "I hope these articles help"
We are not worthy!!!
I am breathless ...
Our map is real ... cmon folks ... take the red pill!
I think Kira is the Oracle!
COMMENT #65 [Permalink]
...
Peg C
said on 3/16/2005 @ 7:06 pm PT...
Dredd #64 -
Nope. Just the Goddess.
COMMENT #66 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/16/2005 @ 7:14 pm PT...
Gee y'all - *blush* - thanks! I'm better at research than I am at putting the picture together - that's where the REAL Oracle & Goddess work is!
We make a great team!
COMMENT #67 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/16/2005 @ 7:22 pm PT...
Dang these are hard to read in the wide format
COMMENT #68 [Permalink]
...
Peggy
said on 3/16/2005 @ 7:39 pm PT...
Hi, Brad or Winter - can you repair the wide screen - makes it too difficult to read. Many thanks.
{I've gotcha covered, Peggy. Sorry it took me so long to get to it --- I've been busy elsewhere. In other words, please don't read my blog!!}
COMMENT #69 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/16/2005 @ 7:45 pm PT...
COMMENT #70 [Permalink]
...
Bob Bilse
said on 3/16/2005 @ 8:24 pm PT...
Kira: Pretty amazing research. Brad should give you a job!
I agree with Billy (#28): We're told there were no suicide pics
Kira: Pretty comprehensive research! I'm impressed! Brad should hire you as an aide...
I agree with Billy (#28): We're told there were no photos of the Lemme "suicide" scene, and here they are, leaked on to the internet.. That's heavily suspicious right there, regardless of the rest of it. It stinks, bigtime!
COMMENT #71 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/16/2005 @ 8:45 pm PT...
COMMENT #9
"...CURIOUSER said on 3/15/2005 @ 1:31pm PT...
Find out who at FDOT put the kabosh on the VPD's re-opened investigation. Then try to find out under whose orders they did that, or what reasoning they give for doing so."
I think we should contact journalists near the Valdosta area. Here's a .pdf file I found interesting regarding the illustrious VPD:
January 2001 - Valdosta Police Agencies Frustrate Officer-Turned-Reporter
======
Address & info re: Valdosta, GA Representative:
Representative Ron Borders (D-GA 175th)
Contact Information
e/bios/Borders,%20Ron/Borders,%20Ron.htm>Web Site
E-mail
604-C Legislative Office Building
Atlanta, GA 30334
Phone: (404) 656-0265
Fax: (404) 463-2634
Main District Office:
1010 Slater Street
Valdosta, GA 31601
Phone: (229) 247-5888
Fax: (229) 259-9907
Background Information
Party: Democrat
Residence: Valdosta
Marital Status: Married (Tammy)
Prev. Occupation: Realtor
Prev. Political Exp.: Valdosta City Council, 1988-98
Education: BA Marian College, 1978; MPA Valdosta State University, 1990
Military: USAF, 1961-65; USA, 1965-69
Birthdate: 09/07/1943
Birthplace: Princeton, NJ
Term: 3
COMMENT #72 [Permalink]
...
KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/16/2005 @ 8:49 pm PT...
Okay, I've contacted a few friends for advice on how to get something like this investigation reopened.
One, who works for the New Jersey Dept of Justice, says we should mass mail requests to the Georgia Attorney General.
Another, a newspaper editor/reporter and former police officer, recommended the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. He also said Georgia's had a few "dirty dealings", which wasn't surprising.
Will post if I hear from anyone else.
Oh, and about the photos - the fact that they were "leaked" means that SOMEONE wants this to come out - but they are afraid to come forward (with good reason!) We need to remember this when we're contacting anyone related to the case - and try not to push TOO hard. Also be careful about leaving phone messages and sending email - the walls have eyes and ears.
COMMENT #73 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/16/2005 @ 8:51 pm PT...
COMMENT #74 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/16/2005 @ 9:14 pm PT...
Thurbert E. Baker, Attorney General - Georgia
The possible bad news is that he was groomed by Zell Miller – ewww. Baker’s listed as a Democrat - but, so was Zell - until we realized he’s one of the Pod People!
I did read an article about how he has sparred with Republican Gov. Sonny Perdue over many issues, and won.
In 1988, Mr. Baker won the first of five elections to represent part of DeKalb County in the Georgia House of Representatives. In 1991, after just one term in the General Assembly, Mr. Baker was chosen by Governor Miller to serve as his Assistant Administration House Floor Leader. In 1993, Governor Miller promoted Mr. Baker to the position of Administration House Floor Leader.
Thurbert E. Baker was appointed Georgia's fifty-second Attorney General by then-Governor Zell Miller on June 1, 1997 following the resignation of then-Attorney General Michael Bowers. On November 3, 1998, he was elected to serve a four year term as Attorney General, and he was re-elected by the voters of Georgia on November 5, 2002.
Capitol Mailing Address
40 Capitol Square SW
Atlanta, GA 30334
Phone: (404) 656-3300
===
Georgia Bureau of Investigations
GBI
===
I still think we ought to contact Harry Jacobs. He already made an advertisement exposing Feeney & Yang - he probably lost his campaign to Feeney due to voting FRAUD. Wouldn't he be interested in seeing this case opened up? Maybe he hasn't been keeping up with the story.
Somebody should write a great letter or call him.
COMMENT #75 [Permalink]
...
Peg C
said on 3/16/2005 @ 9:16 pm PT...
People -
A slight swerve ( barely) into the OT lane: I just came upon the following paragraph in my bedtime reading and wanted to share it with you:
"The problem, of course, was that people did not seem to understand the difference between right and wrong. They needed to be reminded about this, becasue if you left it to them to work out for themselves, they would never bother. They would just find out what was best for them, and then they would call that the right thing. That's how most people thought."
from The #1 Ladies' Detective Agency by Alexander McCall Smith
If you need some down-and-kind time, read this man.
COMMENT #76 [Permalink]
...
Peg C
said on 3/16/2005 @ 9:26 pm PT...
Kes #72 -
Weee...are...the Tro-o-jans, my fr-i-e-e-ends...
And not the rubber kind, either. We females have the b-word! Good going. I'm totally outside the territory, but would like to contribute.
COMMENT #77 [Permalink]
...
Peg C
said on 3/16/2005 @ 9:30 pm PT...
Brad, Winter or someone -
Could you please realign this thread? Or - have I had an inspiration - does the expansion of the line-width reduce the bandwidth in long threads?
COMMENT #78 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/16/2005 @ 9:53 pm PT...
Winter Patriot,
Thank you so much for fixing my stuff! Sorry I caused you so much trouble. It would be nice if we could edit our messages ourselves...oh well. I'll try to do better.
Did I put in the wonky html tag that changed the page layout? If so I'm sorry.
COMMENT #79 [Permalink]
...
Snoopy
said on 3/16/2005 @ 10:17 pm PT...
Slightly off-topic, but illustrative of the wonderful human being that Jeb Bush is, I thought you might want to read this Associated Press article written by David Mark. The cited incident occured in 2000 and can be read at this link:
http://www.jug-or-not.com/pbfa/removepress.html
Governor Jeb shares his brother's philosophy of open government.
COMMENT #80 [Permalink]
...
Winter Patriot
said on 3/16/2005 @ 10:49 pm PT...
#78 no problem, Kira. You're getting it. Don't worry.
COMMENT #81 [Permalink]
...
Peg C
said on 3/16/2005 @ 11:36 pm PT...
Kira -
That stuff is minor. Your effort is major.
COMMENT #82 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/17/2005 @ 1:06 am PT...
Here is a lead as to how to get cellular phone records in Florida.
This case tells me that the FDOT cell phone records of anyone working on the Lemme or the YEI cases is public record, so long as it was a call related to a public as opposed to a private matter.
It may very well be, too, that their private cell phone records, when they are working on a public matter, could also be gotten.
BTW, the icing on the cake here, is that in involves one high on our ladder - Feeney.
Media General v Feeney, et. al
COMMENT #83 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/17/2005 @ 1:15 am PT...
update on post #85
This also applies to email. Yes all email conducted as a part of public activities (government employees) can be attained thru freedom of information type requests.
We need someone in Florida to process these requests ... any volunteers?
We could get all of Lemmes email and phone records while working on the YEI cases.
Lemme at em ...
COMMENT #84 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/17/2005 @ 1:29 am PT...
YEI evidently has top secret government clearance:
6. YEI is not under investigation by the FBI, and no YEI owners, officers or employees have been arrested. In fact, the officers, including owners, of YEI possess Top Secret Clearances that require thorough investigation of an individual and his/her background. (link here, italics, bold added)
But as we found out in the Gannon matter, "thorough investigation" is in the eye of the beholder.
PS, how convenient the top secret clearances must have been for Henry Nee ... the spy ... eh?
COMMENT #85 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/17/2005 @ 5:55 am PT...
CALLING ALL CARS!
I, Miss Persistent, currently of sound mind and body (and very happy), do hereby make the following SPECULATION:
Lemme's car was probably government issue. Anyone could have taken a similar (or even exact)looking car to the fleabag motel on Sunday and done the check-in work. Someone tried very hard to make this look like an off-hours suicide. FDOT was in on this for sure. (So is VPD because key evidence is missing - consistently.) Someone on this level will want to talk.
Clift is very clear that he arrived at work at 6.20 to get Lemme's message, but then can't at all remember when he called Lemme's home later that day (he says sometime between 2.30 and 4, while Mrs. Lemme says the message was left at 4).
I am still working from the bottom up.
COMMENT #86 [Permalink]
...
cheryl
said on 3/17/2005 @ 7:27 am PT...
Dredd #86,
Terri in South Florida might. We haven't heard from her in a while.
COMMENT #87 [Permalink]
...
KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/17/2005 @ 7:48 am PT...
Dredd #83 -
Wasn't Pamela Leslie the one that Lemme was supposed to meet at 2:30 the day he called in late to work? Hmmm...
COMMENT #88 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/17/2005 @ 9:11 am PT...
KestrelBrighteyes #90 She is sorta like the atty general in a sense because she is general counsel. They handle most FDOT legal matters.
She may have no animosity whatsoever towards Curtis and/or Lemme ... same with others in the office there ... these things for the most part flow thru her office as a structural and procedural matter.
Of course it could be otherwise too. No way for me to know at this point.
If Lemme was going to meet her or her staff it was possibly for getting subpoenas or for filing court actions. It may indicate he was ready to leap forward and start putting the heat on.
COMMENT #89 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/17/2005 @ 9:54 am PT...
The meeting between Lemme and general counsel was scheduled for 1.30. Counsel supposedly called Clift at 2 to say Lemme hadn't shown up. Clift then waits until 4 to try Lemme's home - although he told VPD he called sometime between 2.30 and 4.
I suppose Lemme needed to keep counsel apprised because counsel would guide Lemme on the type of legal documentation necessary for any claim to be court-worthy.
COMMENT #90 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/17/2005 @ 10:13 am PT...
Interesting Documents of Record (lighter text below is a link to document)
Georgalis v FDOT, case #02 CA 1664, FACTS involving Curtis, and Mavis' firing, order reinstating her. date is July 2002.
Georgalis v FDOT, case #03 CA 85, Order denying FDOT Motion To Dismiss. date is may 2003.
YEI sues Curtis, FDOT, Georgalis, et. al. and Feeney is their lawyer, date is June of 2003.
FDOT ordered to pay some backpay to Georgalis date is June of 2003.
COMMENT #91 [Permalink]
...
Snoopy
said on 3/17/2005 @ 11:49 am PT...
Hi Miss P.,
Regarding #88, Mr. Lemme's car probably wasn't government issue. It was a Chevy Malibu (typically not government issue) and it had a vanity license plate. Government vehicles in Florida would have a special license plate (usually yellow) and the word "State" or other special use identifier stamped on it along with a unique registration number. You might also remember that an FDOT employee picked up the car in Valdosta to return it to Mrs. Lemme.
I don't think these facts diminish your point either way.
COMMENT #92 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/17/2005 @ 12:29 pm PT...
All Concerned I have been off in court world. Florida is new to the published opinion world, and only has cases from 2003 in its archive at the appellate level.
I have been probing those depths, and have a bit of a handle on it now.
Here is a case that describes some of the machinations of the Mavis Georgalis story ... in the whistleblower category:
FDOT v Georgalis, et. al
While this case does not go into any depth as to some of the deeper issues, it does show that these things appear on the radar from time to time.
And it does show that the powers within the FDOT alligned against Curtis and Georgalis and for FEI. This we know has a bad ring to it.
I will continue to focus my efforts there for awhile, to bring any of the players or subjects to the fore.
This will present, hopefully, a developing map with which to chart our way.
Cheers.
COMMENT #93 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/17/2005 @ 12:38 pm PT...
Clint Curtis was not ultimately reinstated because he filed his complaint too late:
FDOT v Curtis
But, here again, we see the powers that be high up on our ladder organized against one who was trying to bring sunshine into the darkness.
Take note and proceed to his aid.
Take note, also, of two other names in the ladder:
Pamela S. Leslie and Marianne A. Trussell, who presented the arguments that harmed Curtis.
COMMENT #94 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/17/2005 @ 12:44 pm PT...
Who took over Lemme "case load" upon his death?
This is important as there must be "files and notes" pertaining to his on-going investigations.Also how could you be a professional investigator and not realise the "personal risk" involved after the doubtful "suicides" of Gary Webb and Hunter.S.Thompson (just recently)both working on subjects related to this current Adminstration.I find it hard to believe these guys work in a "vacuum".
Anybody that can read can see that Feeney is involved in this and that he isn't the "top of the heap",I don't understand how there is no legal channel to pursue this,we in the "outside world" see America as the country with the highest ratio of Lawyer/population numbers .Don't you have some form of legal/criminal oversite watchdog group that citizens can take complaints to ?
Look at Clinton Curtis walking around with information surporting the fact that a member of your government requested vote rigging software from a company that pays him to lobby for them and they employ illegal aliens as a programmer who steal Hellfire Missile Chips and sends them to a hostile country ,only to get a $100 fine ,damn I get a $100 fine here if I park my car in the wrong fricken' place.
Are THEY putting something in the water over there ,is there so much money to BUY everybody off that when somebody DOES THEIR JOB and wont be payed off you just kill them and pay off everybody to uphold the SUICIDE verdict no matter what the evidence shows.Look at Gary Webb ,2 thats T.W.O. two gunshots to the face as a method of suicide.
Nero fiddled ,Bush bullshitted
COMMENT #95 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/17/2005 @ 12:56 pm PT...
YEI had evidently lost a case at a lower level and had appealed to the District Court of Appeal, First District, State of Florida. It was an appeal involving the FDOT. The appeal was denied (1/21/03):
02-4641 YANG ENTERPRISES, INC., v. STATE DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION DENIED 1/21/2003
The decision was not published, only listed (link here).
I am working on getting to some of the files to look thru the pleadings, etc. to see what is up. Bear with me, this takes time.
As pres Johnson used to say "Let us continyah to continyah".
COMMENT #96 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/17/2005 @ 1:07 pm PT...
I'm no forensics expert, and have no opinion on why the watch stopped or why the blood was where it was. But an amateur sleuth can almost figure this case out better without even considering the crime scene.
The Florida D.O.T., which should have wanted every angle considered in Lemme's death, in fact wanted the opposite...to have the books closed with a finding of suicide. That's more than a smoking gun, that's an exploding cannon, friends.
I don't even need the blood evidence.
In my letter to Chris Shays I said, "People planning to kill themselves don't drive 80 miles to another state first, check in at a fleabag motel, turn around and drive all the way home to sleep, get up at 5:15 a.m. the next day to drive all the way back to the motel to check out (without ever having occupied the room), then sneak back into the room without re-registering, and slash their wrists. Not plausible."
Lemme met someone on the morning of 9/30. At that point, that person or a confederate had already registered the room in Lemme's name in Valdosta, on 6/29. The person Lemme met on the road might have promised to feed him information, but instead pulled a gun and forced him to drive his own car to Valdosta, with the confederate driving their getaway car. They went to the room that had already been reserved (probably through a rear entrance). Lemme was murdered immediately, and the person who had first made the reservation then checked out...as Ray Lemme, the idea being to delay an investigation by making the motel people think the room was vacant. It worked for one day.
COMMENT #97 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/17/2005 @ 1:20 pm PT...
Hi RLM, I follow you all the way until the delay of the investigation. Why, if "Lemme" checked out on the morning of 6/30 did the maids not go to clean and discover the body then on 6/30 at 11 since he had supposedly checked out? Why did they wait another day?
COMMENT #98 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/17/2005 @ 1:48 pm PT...
Miss Persistent #97
I agree with your question re:maids not trying to clean the room at 11:00 on 6/30. From VPD reports, the hotel was FAR from no-vacancy so the maids would have lots of free time on their hands - they were probably looking for something to do to fill the time. Well - maybe. Unless they *duh* forgot...or maybe the DND sign on door fooled them or they were just too lazy.
I don't know how motel maids keep up with which rooms were recently vacated - does the motel mgr. generally give a list to them so they can clean the appropriate rooms?
Lots of info here to look at, plus thinking about all the points in Lemme's case that just don't add up.
COMMENT #99 [Permalink]
...
Bob Bilse
said on 3/17/2005 @ 2:16 pm PT...
COMMENT #72 [link]
...KestrelBrighteyes said on 3/16/2005 @ 8:49pm PT...
"...Oh, and about the photos - the fact that they were "leaked" means that SOMEONE wants this to come out - but they are afraid to come forward (with good reason!) We need to remember this..."
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
I agree, K, Someone saw that this whole thing stinks, it didn't sit well with them, and snuck those "nonexistant" photos out in an attempt to get this unburied again. What other reason than to attempt to undo a coverup?
COMMENT #100 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/17/2005 @ 2:23 pm PT...
Jus a little more on Roy T. Cales:
Questionable judgment
© St. Petersburg Times, published September 4, 2001
...Cales is accused of using a phony letter from a television station to persuade a Tallahassee bank to lend him $35,000 five years ago.
...However, it also is true, although the governor hasn't acknowledged as much, that Cales was a glaringly inappropriate choice for such a sensitive position in state government even before his current legal problems became known.
It's not just that Cales had never held any job with responsibilities remotely comparable to the ones he was given in the governor's office, where he was in charge of a $600-million-a-year budget. Cales also had a bankruptcy and a grand theft charge in his background when Bush made him the state's first chief information officer.
-more-
Tech background
The bearded, 6-foot-6-inch, 280-pound Cales caught Gov. Jeb Bush's eye when his company, Genesis Communications Network Inc., hosted a Web site for Bush's 1998 gubernatorial campaign. That job followed a contract with the Republican Party of Florida.
"I think a lot of people question how he got where he is," said former Genesis partner George Varn.
Varn was Cales' boss when Cales worked as stage and production manager at the Civic Center from 1989 to 1994, following Cales' earlier employment as set builder and technical director for the theater department at Tallahassee Community College.
After a short stint as a manager of a Tallahassee computer store, Cales started his own business, Integrity Data Inc. But a stroke in 1997 forced him to close his 15-month-old business and file for bankruptcy protection.
He resumed his relationship with Varn - this time with Varn financing the new company Genesis, while Cales oversaw the day-to-day operations. The company, which Varn still runs today, provides high-speed Internet access to businesses in Tallahassee.
Once Genesis was up and running, Cales started data consulting company Gencom Network Inc., which he later sold to employee-turned-partner Mark Mills. That company, renamed Yuma Solutions Inc., is "moderately successful" with offices in Tallahassee and Tampa, Mills said.
...[Cales did not mention his past on his] state of Florida job application, which asks job candidates whether they've ever been convicted or pleaded no-contest or guilty to a felony, or whether they've had the adjudication of guilt withheld.
-more-
So Cales gets away with all his embezzeling/financial crimes and then starts a new business (On-Point LLC) and is now a lobbyist (still w/the gov.) It's interesting to note that he's a lobbyist for SAIC. Read this article by Lynne Landis: Voting Machine Fiasco: SAIC, Bohemoth Military Contractor, Wants to Be inside Every Voting Machine; Three Way Scam on Diebold Review
MyFloridaHouse.Gov
(Search for last name Cales under lobbyists)
Roy T. Cales
150 S Monroe St Ste 206
Tallahassee, FL 32301
Phone: 850/224-1002
Principals
Consolidated Technology Solutions
270 N Palafox St Pensacola, FL, 32502
Mainline Information Systems, Inc
1700 Summit Lake Drive Tallahassee, FL, 32317
On-Point, LLC
PO Box 15142 Tallahassee, FL, 32317
TEKsystems, Inc
7437 Race Rd Hanover, MD, 21117
ACS State & Local Solutions, Inc
200 S Biscayne Blvd Ste 1080 Miami, FL, 33131
AT&T
101 N Monroe St Ste 700 Tallahassee, FL, 32301
Government Vendors Association
PO Box 15579 Tallahassee, FL, 32317
IT Florida
1700 Summit Lakes Dr Tallahassee, FL, 32317
SAIC
11251 Roger Bacon Dr Reston, VA, 20190
On Point LLC
COMMENT #101 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/17/2005 @ 2:40 pm PT...
Excellent question. I struggled with it. Here's what I think happened.
One of the killers checked out (as Ray Lemme, who was already dead in the room). The other killer hung the "Do Not Disturb" sign on the door as his last act before hitting the road. Was there a possibility the maids had a list of who had checked out and who hadn't? Yes, but it was more likely, especially in a second-rate motel, that they just knocked on doors and went about their business. In this case, they saw "Do Not Disturb" and let it go at that. Management wasn't concerned, because as far as they knew the room was empty.
By the second day, the "Do Not Disturb" sign was a red flag, especially if the same maid was on duty. So they called the cops after not being able to enter the room easily.
COMMENT #102 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/17/2005 @ 2:47 pm PT...
Oh yes, one more link-up for Cales et al:
Genesis Communications Network Inc.
I don't know how accurate Daniel Hopsicker is in his reporting, however he has made connections between Genesis companies and Adnan Khashoggi (who is also connected to the various Triad companies - and any mention of this seems to activate certain Trolls - fair warning, they may congregate here after this post!)
Read this story by Hopsicker if you're interested:
Khashoggi, Cults & Coverups
...And then we read something about the Genesis Communications Network in Florida that made out heart grow cold… or at least cold-er.
In the July 23, 2001 South Florida Business Journal was a story called “Florida's tech leader under investigation.”
-more-
COMMENT #103 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/17/2005 @ 2:54 pm PT...
RLM #101 Your description of how the maids let the room go is probably right on. Good thinking.
(Ohhhh! ding! ding! ding! ding! ding! I got post #100 woo-hoo!)
COMMENT #104 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/17/2005 @ 3:51 pm PT...
mmiixx #95
I think Gary Webb and Hunter.S.Thompson died after Ray Lemme.
COMMENT #105 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/17/2005 @ 3:58 pm PT...
RLM #101. What about this. The main desk never gets the word on check-out at 6.45am on 6/30 and so the maids don't come. After another day and the information comes out, the managers fake the check-out so as at least to get paid for the original 24hrs or so. They use the information from the possible phone-in registration (that's why they take the information in the first place, right?). That would explain why the maids didn't come AND explain some discrepancy in check-out time. So, is it possible that the check-out time could have been back dated?
Forgive me if anyone thinks I'm belaboring any of the details but to me anyway, I need the timeline to work first.
Snoopy, what did the vanity plate say? And where was that, I missed it altogether.
COMMENT #106 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/17/2005 @ 4:03 pm PT...
Ding ding ding ding ding - Kira, it's really the 800+th post! Congrats!!!
COMMENT #107 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/17/2005 @ 4:19 pm PT...
Miss Persistent #105
In the picture of the motel room vanity there is a yellow paper that I have always assumed was the check-out receipt. Was it? On page 2 of this report signed by Shannon Floyd - she writes that there were 2 motel receipts on the vanity counter "a check-in receipt and a check-out receipt." link
Aha - the tag description is here:
link
COMMENT #108 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/17/2005 @ 4:22 pm PT...
Oops - gave the wrong link for the check-in/check-out receipt info:
Here it is:
link
COMMENT #109 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/17/2005 @ 5:03 pm PT...
Wasn't the customer copy missing? Sheesh. Hmmm. (Not that THAT makes sense either!)
The maid that knocked at 11.05 on 7/1 (BTW, her ph# is not blacked out - hint hint) sounded so proficient. Called, called, knocked, knocked. I'm not being able to imagine goofing off and skipping cleaning - I mean what if the manager re-assigned the room.
COMMENT #110 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/17/2005 @ 5:30 pm PT...
Somebody please, remind me (or point me to the correct document) about the discrepancy in check-in/check-out and dates. Where did that come into play --- who mentioned it or wrote about it first?
COMMENT #111 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/17/2005 @ 5:33 pm PT...
Insider Magazine states that the police were "forced to surrender" the photos. Anybody know more about that?
COMMENT #112 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/17/2005 @ 5:38 pm PT...
Dredd yep, the order matters not, the method of "damage control" does
mmiixx #95
I think Gary Webb and Hunter.S.Thompson died after Ray Lemme.
Shame theres no "World Court" to take this to, ah.
COMMENT #113 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/17/2005 @ 6:20 pm PT...
For Miss P: Could have happened that way. My sense of this motel is that they have a minimal staff giving minimal service, relying on a central computer somewhere out of state.
Whoever booked the room in Lemme's name could have gotten his credit card information from the D.O.T. If they had copies of his handwriting to forge the suicide note, which is probable (the letters slant forward and the sentences move upward, both signs of a positive, optimistic person), then obtaining his credit card info would have been easy. So? Book it over the phone, ask for easy check-out ("I'm leaving early on the 30th") and once the card goes through, no problem! Pay for one night in advance, and the clerk doesn't even have to be there at 6:45 a.m. on 6/30.
If Ray Lemme had thought to call his credit card company on the evening of 6/29, they might have been able to tell him, "There's a pending charge on your account for a motel room in Valdosta, Georgia." That would have tipped him off, but why would anyone think to make such a call?
COMMENT #114 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/17/2005 @ 6:33 pm PT...
You need to find out how the booking was made ,has anyone phoned the motel to see if they will remote book .Are the owners/managers the same as in 2003?
COMMENT #115 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/17/2005 @ 6:50 pm PT...
MMIIXX, Well...that's why I left the hint hint.... We have a resident attorney, a resident researcher, several resident logicians, resident historians, resident investigators, resident psychologist, resident jokesters (ala deep throat), etc., a resident travel guy, many resident big brains, AND a resident phone guy. Yoohoo? Anyone?
COMMENT #116 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/17/2005 @ 7:54 pm PT...
The two receipts do not look odd to me at all.
The 6/29/03 looks like someone called for a reservation for the room ----or more likely came to look at it. Why? to check it out for the next day, pick an 'out of the way room'. And most importantly to make sure there where no "SECUITY CAMERAS".
So making an assumption that L. did not rush to Georgia in the a.m. on his own, or any of the other stuff which just does not 'fit'--let's assume that he had help of 'some' help from folks close to him. And those folks did not want an autopsy, and a small town police force who would be more easily decieved.
So, in the a.m. of the 30th the guy came to take the room and payed with a credit card in advance with L.'s credit card and signed the receipt, for a 24 hr stay.
Was that Lemme? With all the back and forth and odd to go to Georgia and non working timelines?
Let's say it was a guy and and a gal and it worked this way:
check the room out and come in as Lemme in Lemme's car.
Lemme was given a heavy sedation the night before and maybe some extra doses of ecotrin.
A lady (let's call her A-) with L. sedated in the back seat, drives out in another car and stops to make two calls.
Why? To put a time of Lemme's trip out to Georgia.
A call to his boss and left a message a call to his 'own' answer phone to leave the same message.
An interesting error--like she forgot she supposed to be acting like L. calling her.
Somethings come up---so why would L. continue on to Georgia? Nothing 'came up'--it was just a diversion, both calls to establish a mysterious unknown 'big case' guy( and both calls to be deleted because it was not L.'s voice on the phone,) but the testimony would be of 'something big', I'll be late.
The phone log was later used as evidence of L.'s position, in transit--unfortunately, as pointed out earlier in this thread that time line did not jell.
Some one else checked in and signed the pay receipt. The car with L. arrived and he was brought in and whatever went on, he was still sedated and non resistant. He was put in the tub with his pants on as it would be easier to maneuver him and suicided.
The note was prepared in advance and was not signed---because 'they' did not want the signature to be compared with the 'sign out' receipt.
The added dose of ecotrin-just a bit of a guess-because aspirin prolongs the clotting time. They had to have enough blood to fool the police into accepting this as a self induced suicide by blood loss.
Valdosta police did compare the note with entries in the day plan items and found them to be consistant in form. Detective Spencer did go to the convenience store across the street to review their videotapes taken on 6/30th and 7/1st, so they did try. But an out of state resident locks himself in a room and slices his arm and dies looks an easy call.
Little note is made of the remarkable inconsistancies.
Call to 'someone' at the FDOT--just supports the suicidal mood of L.--case closed.
COMMENT #117 [Permalink]
...
Peg C
said on 3/17/2005 @ 8:56 pm PT...
There is so much all-out evil/ugly here. We're living in a sewer, guys, and none of our so-called "compassionate" officials would hestitate to "flush" us.
IMPEACH BUSH! Visit impeachbush.org ( no link, but it's easily found). We've got to crawl out from under this obscenity and be human beings again.
COMMENT #118 [Permalink]
...
Peg C
said on 3/17/2005 @ 9:03 pm PT...
COMMENT #119 [Permalink]
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Snoopy
said on 3/17/2005 @ 9:11 pm PT...
Miss P. #105
Mr. Lemme's Chevy Malibu had a Florida license plate. This plate was the "United States Reserves" type which is one of many different styles available in Florida. The car was registered to Mr. Lemme, not the state. The digits "5700" comprised the registration number. Not sure if that was Mr. Lemme's choice or if it was random. Sounds intentional to me. Maybe an Air Force squadron number or something else significant to him.
This information was noted in V.P.D. Detective Spencer's report.
COMMENT #120 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/17/2005 @ 9:50 pm PT...
RE: rungs #2-3 of Post #6 seem supported by this story.
COMMENT #121 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/17/2005 @ 10:18 pm PT...
I've gone over the facts we know of this "suicide" case a thousand times. The 2 biggest things that don't make sense to me are how the investigators didn't react to 2 glaring conflicts.
Conflict #1:
Sabita Vallait, the Knight's Inn motel clerk tells police that Lemme HAD NOT yet "checked out". She goes further to say that Lemme was "supposed to check out" at 11:00am. When the police examine the room, they find a "check out" receipt in Lemme's posession. There is nothing in the Police reports that indicates any further questioning of Sabita Vallait's conflicting statement.
Conflict #2:
The dates on Lemme's check in/out receipts are 6/29 and 6/30, respectfully. Yet that conflicts with his Wife's testimony, Robert Clift's testimony, and just about every other aspect of the case. In the police reports there are no indications that Detective Floyd made any effort what-so-ever to try and confirm potential errors in the dates set in the credit card computer at the Knight's Inn.
In one report, they mention the receipts and the check in date of 6/29 and check out date of 6/30. Yet, in another report, they simply state that Lemme checked in on 6/30. There is no declaration that the Police even noticed this discrepency in any of the reports.
They never acknowledged this major discrepency.
They never confirmed the discrepency.
They never investigated the conflict.
Yet, they closed the case anyway. This taken together with the fact that the Detectives noted in their reports they couldn't get the pictures out of the memory cards - yet 2 years later they mysteriously show up on the internet - spell only one thing: The cover-up of the murder of Raymond Lemme.
Lemme crossed state borders the day of his disappearance, which means, if this cover-up is to be investigated, it would be in the FBI's jurisdiction - NOT VALDOSTA Police Department's.
Brad, have you called the FBI? This is such an obvious case, how could they not start an investigation here?
COMMENT #122 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/17/2005 @ 10:54 pm PT...
Dredd #120 -
No surprise. We're not bored with this yet, are we? Come ON! Yell!!!
COMMENT #123 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/18/2005 @ 3:36 am PT...
The 6/29-6/30 timeline precludes suicide by itself, unless 1) Ray Lemme drove 80 miles to check into a hotel room, didn't use the room but drove 80 miles back home to sleep, got up at 5:15 a.m. and drove 80 miles back to the motel to check out, then somehow re-entered the room without registering again and killed himself, or 2) the motel's date machine was a day off, it was 6/30 when he checked in, not 6/29, the checkout clerk was lying or mistaken in saying Lemme hadn't checked out yet (and if he had checked out, he still necessarily sneaked back in somehow).
Both these scenarios are absurd. The case cannot be judged a suicide on this basis. Not possibly. Our job now is to deluge public officials and investigative reporters with the facts. A high-profile death cannot have been a suicide, important people have a huge stake in our believing it was, and a police chief who has acknowledged the date problem nevertheless has closed the case at the request of the same people the decedent had been investigating when he died.
Let's demonstrate that we don't live under Marcos or Sukarno. A copy of my letter to Chris Shays is going in the mail to Bob Woodward today. Other copies are going to Sen. Bob Graham, Rep. Alcee Hastings, Rep. Cynthia McKinney, Robert Wexler, Harry Jacobs, and others.
COMMENT #124 [Permalink]
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Snoopy
said on 3/18/2005 @ 6:41 am PT...
Fred #121,
It's been my assertion all along that this is an FBI case. It involves a crime that may have taken place in two states, possible transport of a victim over state lines, possible murder of an investigator who was researching companies who had questionable ties to federal government contracts (NASA, etc.), potential interference and conflict of interest with a U.S. House of Representative member (Feeney), etc., etc. What does it take to get somebody at the FBI to notice?
COMMENT #125 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/18/2005 @ 6:58 am PT...
But, Snoopy...The F.B.I. is under the control of the executive branch of government. If Mueller went to Bush and asked, "Should we investigate this?" what answer would he get? If it were "Don't go there," do you think Mueller would say to Bush, "Mr. President, I'm sorry, but we have to go there?"
I'm old enough to remember Watergate. Archibald Cox, a special prosecutor, was fired by Nixon for not backing away when he was ordered to. Bush is identical to Nixon (and Captain Queeg of the Caine) in his paranoia toward "disloyal" subordinates. The best we could hope for from the F.B.I. is a private investigation that confirms suicide, which would be worse than no investigation at all.
We need a reporter like Bob Woodward on the case, and/or a Congressional investigation, and/or a special prosecutor with immunity from being fired.
COMMENT #126 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/18/2005 @ 7:15 am PT...
Peg C #122 Yes, not bored yet.
I neglected to say in my post you mentioned that it also applies to rung #6 on the ladder portrayed in post #6.
The pearl harbor effect. They were planning the oil takeover but needed the pearl harbor effect again because public sentiment was alligned against war pre-911 due to the Vietnam hangover etc.
The pearl harbor effect worked quite well to allow taking the oil by force because in general the public sentiment was turned as it was in the first pearl harbor.
Not only that, the fact that certain western nations were part of the coalition of "the willing" shows their governments were willing to participate based on national security concerns even tho their populace was not effected by the pearl harbor effect nearly as much as the US populace was.
COMMENT #127 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/18/2005 @ 7:33 am PT...
Robert Lockwood Mills #126, Snoopy #124, and Fred #121
It is a federal case and that is why it is controlled by factors that are not the items of a Det. Columbo inquiry.
The controlling factors are better explained by an FBI, CIA, and administration that firmly believes the western world is in grave danger because of:
1) the lifeblood of the western world economy is oil
2) oil is, in significant degree, in the control of enemies and the degree was growing
3) the military also dies without oil
4) western security policy is founded military ideology
5) the issue could not be resolved by capitalistic (economic) means
Thus many ideologies were effected by the turn of the world. Torture is wrong but tolerated and covered up, murder is wrong but tolerated and covered up under certain circumstances.
The world Det. Columbo worked in is not the prevalent world view today. He would be frustrated and exasperated in his detective work if he took on the Lemme case with his past world view.
One of the Die Hard movies where ambassadors were getting away with murder based on sovereign and/or ambassadorial immunity is more in tune with the world view working just under the ink and between the lines of the MSM newspapers.
The map in post #6 explains many of the events better because it is a more attuned world view.
COMMENT #128 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/18/2005 @ 7:37 am PT...
In my post #127 I meant Robert Lockwood Mills #125 instead of 126.
COMMENT #129 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/18/2005 @ 7:39 am PT...
Hi Kira, sorry to take so long to answer about the receipt being the merchant copy rather than the customer copy. The pictures are in Brad's original story. It's still up for grabs whether that copy is the top copy or bottom copy. Note also on the ticket to the left the hours are stated as "11 to 7"
COMMENT #130 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/18/2005 @ 8:21 am PT...
Dredd, if we argue about energy in connection with the Lemme case, we'll win the argument and lose the war. Your analysis might be entirely right, but that's for the history books to decide 50 years from now.
Right now, I want to prove that Ray Lemme was murdered. Talking about big-picture matters like oil distracts us. Lt. Columbo might have been a fictional character, but he always found a way to acknowledge extraneous issues as if he'd been satisfied, then turn around and say, "But there's just one more thing that's bothering me."
We have to keep the focus on the murder for now, not argue the political milieu which gave rise to it. The more political we sound, the greater the chance that moderate Republicans who might otherwise help will say, "This is all political."
My posting to Snoopy about the F.B.I. reflected two fears: 1) Mueller would try to please Bush by doing a whitewash job (or be fired for trying to do it right, as Nixon fired Cox in 1973), and 2) Any F.B.I. inquiry would discourage Congress from getting involved ("not to interfere" with a government agency's work).
COMMENT #131 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/18/2005 @ 8:23 am PT...
Dredd #127 (towards bottom of post) - Wasn't the movie Lethal Weapon 2 you were thinking of? That's the one with the South African diplomats that use their "Diplomatic Immunity" to try and get away with murder & other crimes.
COMMENT #132 [Permalink]
...
Bob Bilse
said on 3/18/2005 @ 8:52 am PT...
...Peg C said on 3/17/2005 @ 8:56pm PT...
"There is so much all-out evil/ugly here. We're living in a sewer, guys, and none of our so-called "compassionate" officials would hestitate to "flush" us...We've got to crawl out from under this obscenity and be human beings again. "
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Your post caught my eye, because reading about Ray Lemme's murder makes me feel like taking a shower, it's all so "dirty".
I am gratified that this fight is being fought, however. Could this be the "straw" that will break the "camel's back"? I hope so.
COMMENT #133 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/18/2005 @ 8:56 am PT...
EXTRA EXTRA READ ALL ABOUT IT:
OK guys and gals. I have a brand new timeline that makes a whole heck of a lot of pieces fit. Bear with me, and study for holes:
The 2 receipts are off. One says 6/29 6.x4pm and the other says 6/30 6.54a. I submit that the first receipt machine is 12 hours off. That Ray checked in at around 6.54a on 6/30. The receipt on the left in the photo shows a zero balance. These two documents are reporting the same transaction in different formats. Pretty typical except time is off by exactly 12 hours on the one.
New scenario
6/30 MONDAY
==========
5.15a Lemme leaves home
6.15a Lemme calls boss, something came up, late
6.54a Lemme checks into hotel, staff say must leave early since checked in early. 1.5 hrs since he left home.
8.10a Lemme writes note
11.00a Maids do not come clean because he just checked in and has do not disturb
12.34p Watch stops
1.30p Lemme misses meeting without calling
3.00p Car is named as being here at 3p on Monday
Bed not slept in
7/30 TUESDAY
==========
11.05a Maid comes to clean, can't get in, customer still there
1.06p Police arrive, body dead for about 17 hours which is enough time for rigor mortis (8-36hrs)
So, it NOW it looks like the PERFECT suicide instead of a bunch of loser hitmen. It must go pretty high.
And, all else remains the same. The missing evidence, photos that weren't really destroyed, bruise on neck. Pills in the room, etc. etc. etc.
Ok, I've finished my timeline. I feel better.
COMMENT #134 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/18/2005 @ 9:14 am PT...
Fred # 121
I think you are going the wrong way on these
seemingly 'conflicts'.
The form-unsigned- dated 6/29/03 is a room reservation form. Could have been by a phone in request.
Form 2 -signed- is a credit card payment form commonly used. Generated at 6/30/03 at 6:54 a.m. and signed and a key given for the room which Lemme went to and 'never' left.
The next day 7/01/03 Vallait tried to gain enterence and could not. She stated she told the occupant 'you got here early yesterday and you have to leave early'.
There is no conflict here.
But there is the question, for me. did Lemme signed himself in or did someone pretending to be Lemme sign him in?
Does anyone know how to get a copy of Ray Lemme's signature? To compare it with the credit card receipt.
COMMENT #135 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/18/2005 @ 9:20 am PT...
To be more clear---Vallait made the statement through the partially opened door and did not see the occupant and got no responce.
Does anyone have a history of Ann Marie?
COMMENT #136 [Permalink]
...
KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/18/2005 @ 9:29 am PT...
#133 - I follow you and agree it makes perfect sense EXCEPT for -
#134 - That's what I think, it was a call-in reservation made on the 29th for the next day. Arranging for an early check-in for early the next morning wouldn't be unheard of, especially in a "no-tell motel"
#133 The timeline makes sense, especially if he was supposed to meet someone for information, and they told him to go to the hotel in Valdosta where it's almost guaranteed neither he nor his vehicle would be seen by anyone who knew him. "No-tell motels" are used to clandestine meetings, they wouldn't ask for a lot of information as long as the bill was paid, and it looks like he pre-paid when he checked in.
When the manager said he "didn't check out", she might have meant that although he signed the credit card receipt, he didn't return the key card - so where is the key card?
I don't think the police even mentioned it at all in the report, did they?
COMMENT #137 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/18/2005 @ 9:38 am PT...
For Miss P: We're still left with the $65 question (inflation-adjusted): "Why would Ray Lemme have gone to Valdosta to kill himself?" Your theory fits the check-in/check-out timeline, but doesn't explain motive.
One explanation consistent with suicide: Lemme was a compulsive gambler with huge debts. He drove to Valdosta to negotiate with his bookie; the bookie said. "No, I want all the money by tonight or else." Ray killed himself, knowing 1) bookie couldn't collect a gambling debt from his estate, 2) his daughter's wedding could now be paid for.
Alternate explanation consistent with suicide. He agreed to meet an informant regarding the D.O.T. investigation. The person he met didn't provide the information he needed, instead said, "People at the D.O.T. know about your problem (perversion?) and are going to expose you if you don't back off." He couldn't end the investigation without arousing suspicion (after having told Curtis he was close to cracking the case), so he took the easy way out.
Every other answer to "Why did he go there" points to murder and murder only, whether according to your theory or not.
I dismiss the compulsive gambling/suicide notion on several grounds. 1) There was no point in renting a motel room to meet with a bookie, especially if he were broke. 2) It isn't likely he'd have dealt with someone that far away; there are plenty of people in Tallahassee handling bets. 3) He wouldn't have told Curtis he was looking forward to his daughter's wedding if he was worried about whether he could pay for it.
The blackmail theory fails, too. An informant in a Florida D.O.T. case wouldn't be likely to ask Lemme to meet him 80 miles away, out of state, in a fleabag motel. Why drive that far, and why rent a room when they could have sat in a booth in a diner on the road somewhere? If his bosses knew Lemme had been a pervert or had some embarrassing addiction he could be blackmailed over, they would have had grounds to simply fire him, much earlier, before he got close to cracking the case.
If any other devil's advocate out there has a rationale for Lemme's having killed himself at the place he supposedly did, according to any timeline, I'd be interested in hearing it. If we can rule out all suicide scenarios consistent with the evidence, murder is the only thing left.
COMMENT #138 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/18/2005 @ 9:44 am PT...
Yes, the new timeline explains all the loose ends and that leaves us free to move up from there to motive, means, opportunity.
COMMENT #139 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/18/2005 @ 9:46 am PT...
1. Wouldn't Mr. Lemme's brother be able to find out about Ray's Sunday timeline? What time was he home on Sunday evening? Ray would have to be missing from home at least from 5pm until 8pm (that's just a fast drive down, register & back home.)
2. Ray paid by credit card on the check-in receipt. DID he pay IN PERSON or by phone?
3. Has anyone noticed on the check-in bill (copy on Unrestricted Warfare - Insider Mag. site) that Lemme's car tag number is "penciled" in? At the bottom of receipt: US 5700
4. What does /11 to 7 mean on the bill?
5. What was redacted in the check-out receipt - the credit card number?
6. I can't make out the 3 letters just above the redacted line at left: ??? to #: 132 Anybody?
COMMENT #140 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/18/2005 @ 10:14 am PT...
*Is* there a Georgia connection in the case Lemme was working on?
Let's look for that.
COMMENT #141 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/18/2005 @ 10:15 am PT...
Aaack - bold - I try to fix...
COMMENT #142 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/18/2005 @ 10:15 am PT...
COMMENT #143 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/18/2005 @ 10:50 am PT...
Working on Georgia Connection:
This may be nothing, but...with this unusual name...
Yang attorney Michael A. O'Quinn, Feeney's former law partner.
"Adam Smith covered the Curtis story in The St. Petersburg Times last Sunday. But while including a response from YEI's "outside general counsel", Michael A. O'Quinn, on the matter, Smith failed to note that O'Quinn was Feeney's old lawpartner for years in Florida and that there was no evidence for O'Quinn's "disgruntled employee" charge which was later dropped in YEI's full statement. Smith is a decent columnist, but dropped the ball on that matter! Smith can be politely informed about this important oversight at adam@sptimes.com"
(Don't know if this is the same man - but...)
Could this be the same Michael A. O’Quinn, lawyer for Yang (YEI)?
Michael A. O'Quinn
21 Sims St.
McDonough, Georgia 30253
United States of America
Tel: (770) 898-0333
Fax: (770) 898-0330
Consulting Practice: All States
COMMENT #144 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/18/2005 @ 11:21 am PT...
COMMENT #145 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/18/2005 @ 11:34 am PT...
Does Huddle House serve coffee To Go in red cups?
COMMENT #146 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/18/2005 @ 11:39 am PT...
If it was the same O'Quinn, that name could have been used as a "lure."
COMMENT #147 [Permalink]
...
czaragorn
said on 3/18/2005 @ 11:47 am PT...
RLM: I believe Noxin was in no position to fire old Archy, his atty (jimbo. where are ya?) gen'l had to do it - hence the heroic goings-on on that Saturday night...
COMMENT #148 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/18/2005 @ 11:47 am PT...
Red Coffee cup questions (looking at Knights Inn page supplied by Miss Persistent):
Did any of these (at the time) use Red Cups?
Coffee in Lobby (of motel)
Denny's
Huddle House
Convenience store (as per VPD report)
Al Toreo
Applebee's
Austin's Steakhouse
Cracker Barrel
Which ones would be open at 6:30 am?
COMMENT #149 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/18/2005 @ 11:48 am PT...
Knights Inn has coffee in the lobby (according to their website.
The O'Quinn connection is interesting.
COMMENT #150 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/18/2005 @ 12:09 pm PT...
Oh well - the O'Quinn lead looks to be out of the question:
I found Michael O'Quinn as County Attorney of Henry Co. (McDonough) in 2001. That conflicts with info on YEI's attorney O'Quinn.
Feeney was a partner in the law firm (as per Bradblog - YEI's attorney Michael A. O'Quinn of "Fowler and O'Quinn P.A."
"Feeney worked at the law firm with O'Quinn until 2002, when he resigned after being elected to Congress."
Sorry - must be 2 different people with the same unusual name.
COMMENT #151 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/18/2005 @ 12:37 pm PT...
Czaragorn: My point is that any investigation that falls within the purview of the executive branch is tainted...the F.B.I. won't do it, except on Bush's terms, and the C.I.A. is too secret by definition.
The exception would be a special prosecutor who can't be fired (like Peter Fitzgerald in the Plame leak case).
I'd settle for that, but Gonzales would have to appoint him first, and that isn't likely. I'd prefer Sam Ervin-type hearings, which won't happen with the G.O.P. in charge, or a Woodward/Bernstein-type expose, which might require a Deep Throat again.
If "60 Minutes" wants to redeem its reputation, I can't think of a better story to do it with. According to an article in the New York Times the day after Dan Rather retired, he was staying on as a reporter and planning a governement expose (no specifics given). There's hope.
COMMENT #152 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/18/2005 @ 12:41 pm PT...
Interesting to go back & read the Insider Magazine notes again (lots to absorb):
"A major part of the Insider's investigation was carried out in Lowndes and Echols counties in and around Valdosta, Georgia and stemmed in part from an on-going illegal alien smuggling operation in Bay County, Florida.
The Bay County operation was part of our story "License To Steal", in the Fall 2003 print edition of Emerald Coast Insider Magazine, in which we directly linked White House transition team member William Harrison, Jr. to Big Wheel Recycling and Aztec Environmental of Panama City, Florida."
COMMENT #153 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/18/2005 @ 1:06 pm PT...
Here's the "White Paper" .pdf file which gives the information re: William Harrison, Jr.
Big Wheel Recycling
Here's an excellent article with other links:
Company's Directors Convicted of Fraud in Alabama
"The tangled legal web of Big Wheel reached Florida in the form of one powerful attorney and one prominent businessman, both with close ties to the Jeb Bush Administration. For six months following the convictions of directors of Big Wheel in Alabama (January to July 2003), local attorneys William Harrison, Jr. and Randall McElheney were directors of the Florida company, Big Wheel Recycling of Florida. The latter company now owns the property upon which the landfill is operated."
COMMENT #154 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/18/2005 @ 1:26 pm PT...
Ethel the Blog
This was posted on Ethel the Blog on 10/5/01:
ECONOMIC STIMULUS OR MORE PORK FOR DONORS?
Bush visited New York City yesterday for the second time since the Sept. 11 attacks on the Pentagon and the World Trade Center.
After meeting privately with top CEOs, including J.P. Morgan's William Harrison Jr., Kenneth I. Chenualt of American Express and AT&T's C. Michael Armstrong, Bush emerged to announce the need for a further $65 billion to $75 billion in emergency monies to prop up an economy that seems to have lost its legs.
COMMENT #155 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/18/2005 @ 2:16 pm PT...
Regarding the VPD CALEA accreditation - read this and then tell me they deserve their award:
Elected Officials not concerned about local citizens!
by George Rhynes
INFORMATION/QUESTIONS IN PART PRESENTED TO COUNTY OFFICIALS
Here in Lowndes County Georgia---where are the government of the people, by the people, and for the people.
On 26 August 2003, I stood before the Lowndes County Board of Commissioners with Valdosta Daily Times Reporter present on behalf of eleven (11), plus American Citizen (PASSION ENTITLED), incarcerated inmates in the Lowndes County Jail. They asked me to present their concerns to their Elected Officials for help and relief!
I presented questions, copies of letters, notarized statements of alleged inhumane, unsanitary, and abusive conditions (See Valdosta Daily Times, dated 29 July 2003, and denial of their Constitutional Rights see (Civil Action # 89-54-1, VAL, U.S. District Court of Middle Georgia Division Valdosta District in 1989).
They also mentioned an incident involving an alleged fire arm being swept under the rug. However, as of this date their elected officials have yet to address their complaints.
In my opinion the questions asked should be of interest to every concerned citizen in Lowndes County, State of Georgia and others who are concerned about protecting citizens Constitutional Rights.
QUESTIONS TO LOWNDES COUNTY BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS: (26 August 2003)
1. When was a complete Staffing Analysis of the Jail conducted by the Department of Community Affairs or the Georgia Sheriffs Association?
2. When it is determined that citizens being held in the Lowndes County Jail Constitutional Rights are being violated who ensures that corrections be made? WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR COMPLYING WITH A JUDGE’S COURT ORDER AND CONCENT DEGREE?
3. Does the State of Georgia inspect the Lowndes County Jail? If so, when was the last in-depth inspection done? What was the rating? Who performed the inspection? Is it open for public review? If so, where in Lowndes County can copies be obtained?
4. Since repeated complaints of abuse and mistreatment at the Lowndes County Jail. Have any type of survey been conducted by questioning the entire population of jailed inmates? (To ensure that inmates Constitutional and State Rights are not still being violated as they were in 1989 Ref: Civil Action 89-54-1, VAL U.S. District Court of Middle Georgia).
5. What has the Lowndes County Board of Commissioners or Lowndes County Grand Jury done to ensure that the safety and well being of inmates are in compliance with State, Federal and local Law?
6. Who performs (OVERSIGHT REVIEW); on the Lowndes County Sheriffs Department to insure inmates complaints are adequately investigated/listened to IAW, Federal, State, and Local Law and procedures if applicable? And are citizens being abused because they used the established Complaint System? Has any type survey been conducted to insure complaints are properly reviewed and acted upon until resolved? Who is the oversight person who ensures the effectiveness of the system?
7. How often if ever, is the Medical Staff inspected on their competence and professionalism, and by whom?
8. Is “The Lowndes County Law Enforcement Policy and Procedure Manual” kept up to date? And when was the last time it was reviewed by the State---if required? In what location are the manual kept? And what procedures are required for a citizen to review the manual?
9. On 29 July 2003, it was reported in the Valdosta Daily Times that there was approximately 30 plus discrepancies. This was reported by an employee at the Lowndes County Jail. Other correspondence received from various (local) organizations, family members, present, and former inmates, and others, totaling over 70 documented discrepancies. HOW COULD THESE DISCREPANCIES REAL OR PERCEIVED EXISTS IN 2004? SINCE OUR MOST RECENT “LOWNDES COUNTY GRAND JURY,” GAVE A CLEAN BILL OF HEALTH TO THE FACILITY---AS REPORTED IN THE VALDOSTA DAILY TIMES?
10. What individual if any is responsible for ensuring that all members of the Lowndes County Grand Jury are properly educated, trained, and given pertinent checklist for their Annual Tours of the Jail---if required? In addition, who signs off whether or not Federal, State or Local Laws are being complied with?
11. Request a written reply to this letter, and since some of these inmates is American Veterans. What will you do to help resolve inmate’s problems perceived or real?
12. These are valid questions that every American Citizen should expect their elected officials to answer, and thank God for our freedoms!
PS. The Valdosta Daily Times never posted a word concerning my presentation on behalf of inmates who requested my help in writing. Although, this was done in public---at the Lowndes County Board of Commissioners Meeting!
COMMENT #156 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/18/2005 @ 3:11 pm PT...
COMMENT #157 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/18/2005 @ 3:14 pm PT...
Robert Lockwood Mills #130 Well you keep calling it a murder when it is officially a suicide.
That is bound to do some political damage to the movement for re-opening the case too. Why do we think we are more capable than trained detectives who teach criminal investigation in colleges?
And to "prove murder" you have shown that the inside nite latch could be locked from the outside.
Even this piece of "evidence" is based on Clint Curtis' book who is an interested party, and therefore in the eyes of the judicial system, less reliable than a disinterested third party.
That is like calling a person a bank robber because they walked past a bank with a gun hidden in their coat because they could have robbed the bank cause they were there and had a gun.
Could have will not get it. To have evidence strong enough one needs to have someone testifying that they did lock the door from the outside or someone who overheard the perpetrators talking about doing it.
The case is not as strong as the case against Robert Blake but he was acquitted of murder.
What I am saying is that proceeding as if murder has been proven is very unprofessional and will not get any more mileage from serious people considering the case than looking for motivation elsewhere ("who would have benefitted and why"). It is just as negative.
There simply is no proof of murder that would hold up in court, and no prosecutor would take the case. Who would a prosecutor prosecute?
There is just reasonable suspicion. Reasonable suspicion is better than just plain suspicion but is not the stuff of murder prosecutions. It is not something to be used in matter-of-fact statements.
It is still possible Lemme committed suicide under the current facts, even tho they evoke reasonable suspicion otherwise.
It was reasonable to prosecute Robert Blake but that was not enough to prove murder. And actually the case against Blake was stronger than this one.
There is no one named in the old thread nor this one, no one even known by name as a murder suspect even.
That is not something that commands great respect in the eyes of a jury weighing murder allegations.
COMMENT #158 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/18/2005 @ 3:21 pm PT...
Fred #131 I think you are right about the name of the movie.
COMMENT #159 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/18/2005 @ 3:41 pm PT...
RLM #137
"If any other devil's advocate out there has a rationale for Lemme's having killed himself at the place he supposedly did, according to any timeline, I'd be interested in hearing it. If we can rule out all suicide scenarios consistent with the evidence, murder is the only thing left."
Come on RLM, you know you do not believe there is any possibility of it being a suicide so your playing "devil's advocate" (as the name implies) is biased.
You have simply ruled it out in your mind period, and would not consider it any other way.
So you should dispense with the charade of giving the facts equal treatment. Just call it your final answer and be done with it like the VPD did.
Otherwise you are in exactly the same camp as those professionals who you are criticizing so harshly.
There are many valid and plausible reasons for suicide and many valid and plausible non-reasons for suicide.
Suicide is not rational and using rational thinking to analyze it misses the mark.
Crazy people commit suicide ... mentally or emotionally unstable people ... so to use rational analysis such as "they would not drive 80 miles" or "they would not rent a flea-bag motel" or "they would have slept in the bed" or "they would have done every single thing properly" is to apply the very things a stable person would do to an unstable person.
Suicide can be done on the spur of the moment or after long term planning or medium term planning.
It is not a promising technique to dismiss a set of facts by first assuming the individual was stable at the time ... NO ONE who commits suicide is stable at the time of the suicide.
The question is when and how did they become unstable, and unstable enough to commit suicide.
On the facts of record in this case there is not enough evidence to absolutely rule out or rule in suicide or murder.
So, one side is biased toward murder and the other side is biased toward suicide.
This is not good. What is needed is enough evidence to present to a grand jury for an indictment.
So far that level has not been reached. The level that has been reached is the "a reasonable person could believe either way" level.
And remember, a reasonable person can be negligent and do a better job sometimes and a worse job at other times. Reasonable is a state of mind not a state of absolute job performance every time.
COMMENT #160 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/18/2005 @ 4:10 pm PT...
I can speak for myself, Dredd. I find your last two postings presumptuous and rude, frankly. We have never met nor spoken with each other, and you are in no position to tell anyone what I really think. What I say here IS IN FACT WHAT I THINK.
I have stated that I am not competent to judge forensic evidence. I have also said on several occasions that the willingness of the Valdosta P.D. to shut off its reopened investigation is a smoking gun in this case. Whether you and I see the actual evidence the same way is unimportant, because we are not going to be conducting any investigation.
What is important is that the Florida D.O.T. must explain why they asked (or demanded) the second
investigation be dropped. That is an appropriate starting point for a Congressional hearing, and that is the first question an investigative reporter should ask, provided one can be persuaded to intervene. Whatever the evidence suggests in this case, there is no excuse (other than possibly to save Mary Ann Lemme from embarrassment if her husband had committed suicide because of a personal problem) for the Florida D.O.T. to interfere in an out-of-state police inquiry. Period!
To suggest that we have to assemble enough evidence to present to a grand jury before we can arrive at judgments is just plain silly. We are not district attorneys. We don't have to agree on every item of evidence, nor do I have to accept your analysis of what is or isn't rational conduct. We are not bound by presumption of innocence or other shibboleths of criminal justice.
My concern at the moment (it might not be yours) is to persuade people in a position of power to investigate Ray Lemme's death. If you have a different set of priorities, that's fine...but don't presume to tell me or anyone else what I think.
COMMENT #161 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/18/2005 @ 4:13 pm PT...
OK, I hope those interested have read the timeline I came up with in Post #133. (Don’t read this post unless you have.) All the little "timing" loose ends were tied with that theory - based on facts put together from witnesses and evidence. Anyway, that's how I see it happening (no one has to agree though!)
Lemme leaves for work early (per wife). Affidavit says Lemme had to…(crossed out) something came up. This was on a message from Clift to Lemme’s wife that Clift said he received at 6.15a.)
So now, Lemme checks in at 6.54am on Monday. He rents the room for a day, paid right then and there. He grabs a cup of coffee while in the lobby. Picture on the bath counter shows a white (bill) and a yellow (receipt) Balance -0- on the bill and $ charged to his card. Billing system off by 12 hrs.
Then, he goes and puts his wallet in the car. Why? Maybe because he knows what he's about to do and wants to keep his wallet safe, knowing there will be strangers in the room. Or maybe because someone tells him to so it would look that way.
Belongings on counter:
Glasses (on face)
Glasses case (in shirt pocket)
Keys (in pants pocket)
Receipts (in shirt pocket)
Pill container (in pants pocket)
Watch (on wrist)
Tie (on neck)
Comb (back pants pocket)
Money clip with $5 under the comb (in pants pocket)
2 dimes (in pants pocket)
1 colorful object to the left of glass lenses
Water
So, in his hands he has: Water and coffee.
Then, among his belongings, he has only $5.20 in cash from his pockets. Why, on a Monday , would a man only have $5.20 in his pocket? Maybe he knows what he's about to do, or what? Blank here.
That’s where I am. Slow as a tortoise.
COMMENT #162 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/18/2005 @ 4:20 pm PT...
Cole #134 & Dredd #157,
I think the main point that we have all demonstrated in these 900+ posts is that the Valdosta Police botched the investigation. Whether they did it on purpose, or they are just incompetant is left for debate.
But the end result is that nobody, not us, not Insider, not Brad, nobody can make any sound conclusions concerning what the "6/29/03" and "6/30/03" receipts even mean.
Is one a check in receipt on 6/29 and the other a check out on 6/30?
Or are the dates a computer mistake and actually supposed to read 6/30 and 7/1, respectfully? If the dates are wrong, how can we be sure of the times?
Is one a "reservation" receipt on 6/29 and the other a check in on 6/30?
Everyone has their own theory as to which scenario it could be, but no one, not even the Police department has actual confirmed evidence to back these theories up.
So the argument of whether this is a case of suicide or murder is moot. The argument of whether this case should remain open or closed is, however, perfectly valid.
The investigators closed this case as a suicide on 7/2/03 based on circumstantial evidence and unconfirmed/conflicting facts. If this were any other crime, and they tried to prosecute Lemme with this kind of shoddy investigation filled with more holes than swiss cheese, the judge would not only dismiss the case, but she would also probably lecture the Police Chief about it as well.
The case should never have been closed in the first place. The Police never finished their jobs.
COMMENT #163 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/18/2005 @ 4:22 pm PT...
Whoops, add to the list:
In his hands he has:
Water
Coffee
Black appointment book
"Empty" manilla folder
Pad not written on
If the wallet was safer in the car, why bring the black book in?
COMMENT #164 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/18/2005 @ 4:33 pm PT...
MP #161
He had 6 things in his hands:
1 Coffee,
1 Water,
1 Key card (to get into the room),
1 Dayplanner,
1 manilla envelope (blank, unused),
1 yellow pad of paper (unused)
Things that make you go "hmmm..."
COMMENT #165 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/18/2005 @ 4:33 pm PT...
Oh, MP, you just said that....sorry!
COMMENT #166 [Permalink]
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Billy
said on 3/18/2005 @ 5:41 pm PT...
re. #133 timeline
the stopped watch also suggests that Mr. Lemme died on the 30th, not the 1st. If he'd died on the 1st, the watch (either self-winding or wound by hand on the 30th) would most likely have still been running.
COMMENT #167 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/18/2005 @ 6:14 pm PT...
Hi Fred #164-5, we can't rule out a trip to the car for the book and pad - or he had those on him when he checked in and got the water from the car. But either way, the list kind of helps to see things as they were. That he wasn't carrying luggage, no overnight bag, no toothbrush. Just a couple of ordinary things that he would have had with or mostly "on" him.
Billy #166 , right, also, if he'd died on the 1st there would only be 5 or so hours for rigor mortis to set in and that's not enough. The new timeline fits with the rigor mortis (and everything else, I think, until someone comes up with something better anyway:).
But, it's a bit odd to bring the black book with a manilla envelope and pad of paper into the room. Maybe he wasn't sure how he was going to write the note. Anyway, this is the point at which we can begin to suspect malfeasance, if it exists. Maybe he wanted to write a long note, thought better of it, and just used the black book.
Oh, and I think the shower curtain was pulled somewhat because I think he turned the shower water on for awhile (as described in a previous post).
Still, I'm not convinced it was suicide. Just trying very hard to go step by step.
COMMENT #168 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistence
said on 3/18/2005 @ 6:18 pm PT...
By the way, I'm a believer in fate. The watch stopping (you'd think he'd have wound it that morning) and the one of two machines where the time malfunctioned, draws attention. The fate part is that attention is drawn.
COMMENT #169 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/18/2005 @ 7:08 pm PT...
What makes the story important (to me now) is whether or not Lemme had a "reason" to commit suicide. See, the slicing of the arm is a sign of self-punishment, but when done regularly is also sometimes considered a means of controlling one's "out of control" pain. It'll take some time to sort. But the bottom line is that there would have been SOME source for that pain.
For starters: It could very well be that he'd discovered some things that were beyond his ability to cope:
"According to its definition, PTSD may result when a person suffers an event or situation that is outside the range of normal experience, exceeds the individual’s perceived ability to meet its demands, and poses a serious threat to the loss of life.
"Suicidal people meet the formal criteria for PTSD. Severe and prolonged suicidal pain is not something that most people suffer. People in suicidal crises feel that they are at the breaking point of what they can cope with. "
http://www.metanoia.org/suicide/ptsd.htm
COMMENT #170 [Permalink]
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peterpont
said on 3/18/2005 @ 7:34 pm PT...
Do you all suppose we might put out our energy to finding out how and why the photos where released?
They gave us the clue-so if whoever you are,might be reading this -time for clue #2.
COMMENT #171 [Permalink]
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Peggy
said on 3/18/2005 @ 8:07 pm PT...
The hired murderer was "brought in" from elsewhere to murder Lemme (as opposed to a local person who may talk) (like the election machine hackers flown in from abroad). The murderer was to make it look like a suicide. The motel location was chosen for a variety of reasons, one being to facilitate the faked suicide.
The murderer was brought in from out of town (or country) and secured the room on the 29th. He couldn't sleep in the bed because forensics could possibly determine that more than one person stayed in the room. The airport nearby is interesting. Is there anyway to find out if any private planes flew in/out on the 28th, 29th, 30th, 1st connected to the corrupt ladder "all the way to the top"? What commercial flights took place during that time period?
The motel was a convenient starting/finishing location for the murderer and his employers. The murderer was provided with Lemme credit card number. The murderer checked into the motel and was seen by one or more of the motel employees; Lemme was not seen by any of them. They saw only one man briefly.
Lemme left home early to meet someone or do something specific - it was a trap. Lemme took his wallet out of his pocket and put it in his vehicle's glove compartment as a matter of comfort and habit. The murderer had the pad brought into the motel room and forced Lemme to write the suicide note. He threatened Lemme's family. The murderer checked the diary to see if Lemme had written what he was doing so early on Monday morning, when in fact he was meeting/getting kidnapped by his murderer. Since no paperwork, evidence, or files have come to light concerning Mr. Lemme's comments to Curtis, it seems it was an inside job (FDOT) - they had all his "evidence" - they just needed to get rid of Lemme.
Would that honest lady Georgalis be interested in speaking "off the record" in the interests of justice but with concern for her own safety?
What happened to Clift? How long was he with the FDOT? Doesn't his absence now raise a red flag? Did he leave because he was shocked at the murder of Lemme and because he is scared?
COMMENT #172 [Permalink]
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Peggy
said on 3/18/2005 @ 8:20 pm PT...
The manila envelope could have held photos of Lemme's family for the muderer to use - or the envelope could have contained "fake evidence" to lure Lemme, etc. In any event, the murderer could have just shoved the contents into his pockets and thrown them out in some convenient garbage can on his way back to wherever he came from. Unlikely he meet his employer - guess he was paid for his services though. The manila envelope could have been dusted for fingerprints, but then the murderer probably wore gloves for the entire time.
Also, there may have been more than one murderer. But it was probably less complicated to simply drug Lemme and not have an accomplice. Maybe the murderer caught a cab or rented a car for that time period from the airport?
COMMENT #173 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/18/2005 @ 9:34 pm PT...
Dredd and RLM at or about #160 -
I am truly sorry that you two seem to have antagonized each other, because you are both coming to the same conclusions from different perspectives/world views. Dredd, yours is formal/legal. RLM, yours is instinctual and almost unfailingly accurate. You both agree!!
Dredd, you are a pedant. RLM, you are uncompromisingly pompous but perceptive. You're both quibbling about approaches to the solving of a huge crime against all of us. PLEASE unite, shake hands, and help us to erect an unassailable bulwark against insidious attempts to weaken our common resistence.
Forgive my intrusion. I'm going to bed; but I wanted to do so with a clear conscience and things off my chest.
COMMENT #174 [Permalink]
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american woman
said on 3/18/2005 @ 10:45 pm PT...
RLM said "My concern at the moment ... is to persuade people in a position of power to investigate Ray Lemme's death."
Just wanted to say, RLM, that your grounded and well-founded insight and focus on justice for Ray Lemme has been among the best, if not the best, IMHO.
Your perceptions and experience are invaluable as well, Dredd. Really, the contributions by all on these two threads have been outstanding. (Kumbaya moment. Sorry guys.)
Clearly we're all after the same thing --- accountability, justice.
Vigilance!
COMMENT #175 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/18/2005 @ 11:03 pm PT...
American Woman #174 -
From another American Woman, thanks. We're all in this together, as disparate as we are.
COMMENT #176 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/18/2005 @ 11:58 pm PT...
RLM # 160 "I find your last two postings presumptuous and rude, frankly. We have never met nor spoken with each other, and you are in no position to tell anyone what I really think. What I say here IS IN FACT WHAT I THINK."
Find what you like. I was in reference to what you have in fact said:
"an amateur sleuth can almost figure this case out better without even considering the crime scene ... Lemme was murdered" (#96)
"A high-profile death cannot have been a suicide" (#123)
"I want to prove that Ray Lemme was murdered ... We have to keep the focus on the murder (#130)"
(bold and italics added).
My post certainly not presumptious and certainly was not intended as rude. Strong perhaps, but not rude. For you to deny you have concluded the Lemme death was a murder would be a change in course.
Either way that is up to you. There is no right to a personal set of the facts. We all have the right to our opinion, but none of us owns the facts.
COMMENT #177 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/19/2005 @ 8:01 am PT...
I note that Brad uses the term the mysterious "suicide" case of Raymond Lemme in the heading of this thread.
That is the appropriate caution at this point in time.
COMMENT #178 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/19/2005 @ 8:14 am PT...
First, let me say, I am currently thinking he did it himself but this only supports the gravity of the case he was working on. I feel that either way, if he was murdered OR driven to suicide...the cause was the same. The case. I think it's horrendous either way you look at it.
Dredd: Re: the first link about the boy and your first question, "Here is a link to a "suicide" that just happened. What criteria would you use to determine "a reason" or not?"
Interesting topic that I coincidentally happen to be pretty well-informed about. The boy was obviously profoundly gifted (e.g. levels are moderate, highly, extremely, and profoundly). When you have a PG kid or even EG (my son) the social aspect of life can sometimes suck eggs and can be extremely lonely - at a minimum. Whereas my son has decided to "dummy down" in order to appear normal and have friends, some gifted kids don't - especially PG kids. They get teased and tortured and ostracized. Take Columbine. Their reaction was anger. This boy's reaction was interalized.
"Would you use an analysis based on what a sane person would do or not do? Why?"
In this case, I would use an analysis on what a "profoundly gifted" kid would do. We're talking probably off the charts IQ - top .1% where there are few peers. Extreme giftedness sometimes goes hand in hand with OCD, or depression, or ADHD, or GAD. I would be surprised if he didn't have one of those. That he was homeschooled is a flag that he didn't fit in. Gifted kids are awesome at compensating for their vulnerabilities. They are also perfectionistic. They are sponges to information and to emotion - that's a lot to bear when the emotional age is "on grade level" and the intellect and ability to perceive problems or issues is light years ahead. Coping with adult issues with a teen emotional IQ is not easy.
Well, Jamison makes the point that many suicides have a history of mental illness or depression. True. But some do not. If Lemme had a history of either, his reserve status may have been in question and his wife would probably have mentioned it - along with the sister and brother. I have a reservist friend, I can ask if they use any psychological instrumentation as part of their participation.
I also know that traumatic events can cause severe depression and those traumatic events can happen at any time in a persons life. Think of what happens when a loved one dies. You don't have to have had a history of mental illness or depression in order to become severely depressed for a while. And sometimes, to have had one such occurance leaves a person more vulnerable to another occurance down the road.
That Lemme wasn't on antidepressants also helps me to think something overwhelming may have been going on in his life, and that is pretty much backed up as a fact in this particular case. What would depress him more than to find out a trusted person was siding with the bad guys? Or to have had a threat made against his family.
Lemme also seemed to like control - just by the very specific arrangement of things. If the investigation was continually leaving him feeling out of control, it could probably bug him because it seems a vulnerability of his (again backed up by fact - the pictures). FDOT isn't the same as FBI or CIA, it seems FDOT just did a lot of little penny pinching or favoratism cases. But there does seem to be a branch in FDOT giving contracts away to friends.
COMMENT #179 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/19/2005 @ 8:28 am PT...
So, to sum it up Dredd, the basis for analysis that *I* would use in any suicide case would be to look only at the "baseline reality" for that particular individual. Not how the individual compares to any other individual or what statistics there are out there. What they all have in common is seeing no other solution. And that requires hopelessness. (Totally different that suicide bombers - that's a brainwash.)
Perhaps the black book being brought in was his version of a "long note" (symbolism could be important as well.)
Mind you, I'm not a professional, these are my opinions only - so perhaps cum granos salos (with a grain of salt).
COMMENT #180 [Permalink]
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KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/19/2005 @ 8:30 am PT...
Peekin in before I head out...
Who was it that said, "Everybody can have their own opinion, but everybody can NOT have their own facts"?
Dredd and Robert Lockwood Mills -
From my short time here, I see both of you as intelligent and passionate men, and I feel fortunate to have made your aquaintance, however distant and limited the venue. If you were both here I'd take you to the corner ice cream parlor (we have one like the old drugstore kind) and buy you both a milkshake, just to have the chance to sit and pick your brains - I'm learning so much in here.
The job we have taken on (since those who are PAID to do it are NOT doing it) is to come up with as many facts as we can to have the case reopened. Once it is reopened, we can hope there will be enough evidence to answer the question once and for all whether Ray Lemme committed suicide, or was murdered. Ultimately it won't matter who's right or who's wrong, just that the questions are answered.
It's hard to be objective while looking at this stuff but we HAVE to try our best - if we don't, nobody will take this seriously.
Just my two cents.
Okay, I'm outta here. Y'all have a good weekend.
COMMENT #181 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/19/2005 @ 8:55 am PT...
Oh, and Dredd, just to give an example of the importance of symbolism, the boy had stated 3 months prior to his suicide that he wanted to be an Anesthesiologist.
COMMENT #182 [Permalink]
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peterpont
said on 3/19/2005 @ 9:25 am PT...
And who released the photos-?
And why?
Crudely put-Move on!
No intention of being Rude, but after almost 900 posts, mostly devoted to how and if the death was intentional or forced;it is time to move on
Just my two cents worth. I will check in later to see if my comments where treated with indifference or had a positive effect in coming up with ideas to solve the mystery of Ray Lemme's death.
Thanks: Peter
COMMENT #183 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/19/2005 @ 9:45 am PT...
(I want to be clear on what my "tone" is in this post. My tone is "inquiring for discussion, calm, friendly".)
Dredd #178,
You stated, "If there was strong evidence of a murder a name of a suspect could be furnished. On the facts it simply cannot be produced.
And a suspect, I trust everyone would conclude, is fundamental for a murder investigation to enter phase two - indictment."
In general, you don't need a murder suspect in order to launch a murder investigation. All you need is a dead body. True, logic demands you need a suspect in order to indict for murder.
All we have to do in this Raymond Lemme case is illustrate that the fundamental assertions the Police made were either unconfirmed, inconclusive, or simply wrong.
The motive for murder exists in this case, without having a suspect. It's like finding uniformed Police officer floating dead in the east river. Automatically, there is motive because he is an officer, and even more so if he was in the middle of investigating a huge case that implicates powerful people.
Powerful people have money. The right amount of money can afford professional assassins that can construct a crime scene that would leave an average detective no choice but to determine "suicide". However, a really good detective would know this possibility. Knowing this would motivate a detective to look closley at all the details. Details that expose inconsistency. Inconsistency that leads to questions revealing more details.
Detective's Floyd and Spencer either didn't notice these details or willfully ignored them. We here in this forum have noticed the details. We see the inconsistencies these details lead to, and there are many of them.
COMMENT #184 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/19/2005 @ 9:58 am PT...
I forgot to say in my comment above:
ALL the cases Raymond Lemme was active in should have AUTOMATICALLY become part of the Valdosta PD's investigation into Lemme's death.
They could have learned things in those cases that would have led them to a very different conclusion. (Suspects, motives, etc.)
COMMENT #185 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/19/2005 @ 10:17 am PT...
With all due respect Peterpont, your post had no effect on me whatsoever, except distraction. What are you, sitting in an armchair watching some crime show unfold? No selfish interruptions from the peanut gallery please. Every last idea from every conceivable angle is important. And in between, life happens, people agree, disagree, argue, make up, proceed, all a part of life. Embrace it.
COMMENT #186 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/19/2005 @ 10:28 am PT...
Good summation, Fred. Unfortunately, Lemme's investigative "materials" will have been hopelessly tampered with by now.
COMMENT #187 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/19/2005 @ 10:30 am PT...
Suggestion: People who believe Lemme's death was the result of murder should converse at a new blog.
This one is being rotted by bad apples who are either victims of illogical thinking or else purveyors of bullshit.
Just my opinion, mind you.
COMMENT #188 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/19/2005 @ 10:41 am PT...
No, let me move. I have to work on excluding suicide before I can go to murder. Just let me know when and where.
COMMENT #189 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/19/2005 @ 12:11 pm PT...
Miss Persistent #169 "... whether or not Lemme had a 'reason' to commit suicide".
Here is a link to a "suicide" that just happened. What criteria would you use to determine "a reason" or not?
Would you use an analysis based on what a sane person would do or not do? Why?
I like the quote and the analysis you furnish. Because it focuses on presures OUTSIDE Lemme that would effect what was happening INSIDE Lemme. Good post.
COMMENT #190 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/19/2005 @ 12:31 pm PT...
Peg C #175 He has his opinion that it was a murder as you do. Fine.
But he made a try to dominate the equation by concluding further that a discussion of the larger picture was unhelpful because he is so sure.
I have pointed out the fallacy I see in that approach. If there was strong evidence of a murder a name of a suspect could be furnished. On the facts it simply cannot be produced.
And a suspect, I trust everyone would conclude, is fundamental for a murder investigation to enter phase two - indictment.
But as the Robert Blake trial shows, even having a suspect and an indictment is not the end of the matter - just the beginning of seriously considering it a murder.
In the Lemme case we can't even begin ... in terms of a murder prosecution. There is no named suspect ... other than Lemme.
We must have respect for the process and the players in the process. We can criticize them but to avoid hypocrisy we must have better evidence, reasoning, and process if we do criticize.
So to talk of it matter-of-factly as a murder and then go beyond that and arrogantly conclude that any look at the political and social background is wrong is simply disingenuous and disrespectful.
I have a responsibility to point this out since the Brad Blog should project all aspects of the discussion - including the cautious position based upon what we know - not what we wish.
I have used the term "reasonable suspicion" to refer to both the suicide arguments and the murder arguments.
That is hardly rude.
COMMENT #191 [Permalink]
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Billy
said on 3/19/2005 @ 12:35 pm PT...
Just to say I'm surprised at how few 'rotten apples' there are posting here. These threads are almost totally troll-free, and most people have tried to absorb the opinions and arguments in 900+ posts before they contribute.
I've been following this thread since it started and all in all it's an impressively serious undertaking, I see people revising their opinions, having the grace to apologise to one another when they're wrong, trying hard to substantiate their arguments and clearly labelling their wilder speculation. Productive disagreement just means that you get two suggestions instead of one, and that can't be bad.
What has emerged is a lot of good information, some undeniable, serious flaws in the police work, and some interpretations of the few known facts that fit better than the official version.
As for whether Mr. Lemme was murdered or died by his own hand, we don't know, and we can't know, because the police investigation was neither thorough nor convincing. This is precisely the point. The importance of the debate here is not that it reaches a verdict but that it sets out enough problems, questions, ambiguities and contradictions to show that a conclusive verdict can't be reached on the basis of the facts the police recorded. The police may or may not have reached the right general conclusion, but they certainly didn't uncover the truth.
What happens next will happen somewhere else, in real life - & it certainly won't involve me, I'm on a different continent. But the fact you can't solve the case on a message board doesn't mean that nothing useful got done. Good blog, good thread, & good work, it's what the interweb is for.
COMMENT #192 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/19/2005 @ 12:57 pm PT...
Here is an interesting link that shows suicides happen more often than murder (link here).
"And yet suicide is the third-leading cause of death among age 15-24 in the United States and the second-leading cause among college students. Approximately 30,500 Americans kill themselves every year. (Roughly 1,300 people each day make an attempt serious enough to require medical treatment.) By contrast there are roughly 20,000 homicides a year."
Here are some other links that show suicide can be effected by cultural and other energies:
Guarani Indians
failing physical and mental health
NOTE: the same goes for murder. There are many reasons for it: passion of the moment, greed and lust, jealosy, etc., etc.
COMMENT #193 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/19/2005 @ 2:12 pm PT...
Thanks for that post, Billy. We ARE a pretty good bunch.
COMMENT #194 [Permalink]
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Peggy
said on 3/19/2005 @ 3:48 pm PT...
I think all the contributions to this post are great. It's important that we think differently about what avenues should be pursued. Many brains are better than one, and many dark corners can be investigated, pulling "threads" together to weave a story or picture. The contributions here are from people who care about what happened to Mr. Lemme, what's happening to America. BTW, what is the name of the airport located near the motel, anyone? Many thanks. Keep on blogging. Bet the Ga. police are reading this. They may get some useful ideas and tips. God bless you all.
COMMENT #195 [Permalink]
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Emma
said on 3/19/2005 @ 3:56 pm PT...
Now you guys see why so many of us read and so few post. I've followed this closely but I also note that the moment someone questions something, they are considered a "troll" (whatever that is).
You keep writing, I'll keep reading but rarely asking questions for fear of being "labeled".
Emma
COMMENT #196 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 3/19/2005 @ 4:22 pm PT...
How much money would it take for you to "turn a blind eye" ,the one thing the forces of evil have in their favour is unlimited money to push forward their agenda.
How many millions of dollars (hard cash)disappeared in Iraq lately.
The whole "war on terror" is a farce and the "Lemme" incident is just one of the battles lost by the forces of good and he was a General in the army of good soldiers trying to fight the hidden enemy of truth and justice (do you still remember them?).
Bush stole 2000 ,Bush stole 2004 ,Bush stole truth ,justice and freedom on a platform of truth ,justice and freedom .
Welcome to the New World Order where justice is a distant memory and truth is what "they" say it is !
Keep up the good fight guys ,the world is in grave danger without you.
http://www.bushbodycount.com/list.php
COMMENT #197 [Permalink]
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peterpont
said on 3/19/2005 @ 4:30 pm PT...
Sorry Miss persistence----Your tone seems more offended than your words in post #188 express.
I hope your defintion of a Peanut Gallery includes people with more experience in life than most. I do not post in near the number and rapidity of yourself and I don't mind even rereading all of the similiar posts to get to one or two that are well thought out -regardless of the direction as long as it relates to the general nature of the original post.
I had felt, that the second post was more directed to how to go about following up on some of the combined information submitted on the original bradblog topic.
So -that said I will wait for another blog to start specifically directed to action and not speculation.
Enjoy. Peter
P.S. I never watch "Crime shows" or really that much T.V. Certainly not the so called "news shows".
(See Brad's latest blog topic)
COMMENT #198 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistence
said on 3/19/2005 @ 5:51 pm PT...
Sorry if I've offended anyone. I reacted because I don't like anyone telling me what to do. Plus, I have PMS as an excuse
Anyway, I had an eerie experience the other night that I'd like to share.
I was out to dinner with my son and noticed an older very lean man across the room staring at me the whole time. What struck me was the sheer cold-bloodedness in the blue eyes. (I'm not making this up, and reading eyes is my favorite pasttime.) I've never seen anything colder, ever, not even in the movies. Very serious, not human, no emotion, just coldness. Though it didn't relate to me, I related immediately to this case. I looked at him several times - still the same stare - kind of here and not here at the same time. Looking but having visions too. (Anyone know what I mean?).
Anyway, I suddenly found myself conjuring up the image of what a "death designer" might look and act like. I'll bet there is such a thing. I imagined that they look at you, study your behavior and demeanor over time, and think of all the kinds of ways you could be "died".
Maybe the rest of the job is left up to other planning specialists. The guy that studies you chooses whether it will be suicide, car accident, etc., and then the specialist who figure out how, an then the specialists who carry it out. The specialists who carry it out can't miss a beat...but that doesn't mean the death planners were accurate. Everybody makes mistakes you know.
So, if they studied Lemme, the "death designer" could have said that since he had a lot going on...that he just snapped. He was a reservist, serious, not the laughing sort, lots of stress. Etc. Etc. But then, the slicing...not right...even with the showering and pulling the curtain...I don't know.
And, I've studied suicide all day. While I think they pulled off the perfect "looking" one, without any errors that we can find (I do think the bill clock was off because everything incidental (non-conspiratorial e.g., maids) fits when it is), I still can't see Lemme doing it. The method was self-punishing. Who knows, maybe he did. But as we've said all along...messy, not to the point, slow, not punctual, and uncertain. That may be the error in their judgment.
I can find nothing where a somewhat compulsive person (who generally fears uncleanliness) is prone to suicide (though he probably just has military style neatness), I can find nothing about reservists except those who have been traumatized in Iraq, Vietnam, etc. So far anyway.
But if Lemme was not depressed - and according to the brother he wasn't - then I don't see how he could have done it himself. By all accounts, he seemed a normal guy.
I don't know. I've ordered Curtis' book.
COMMENT #199 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/19/2005 @ 7:39 pm PT...
Looks like it's just me and me here tonight! But for the following observations I have, I think I deserve another ding ding ding on the next post so that's ok.
Besides, why sleep when you can blog at Brad's
NEW OBSERVATIONS:
1) Lemme's wife said he left EARLY;
2) If Lemme left early AND made it to Valdosta in the minimum amount of time necessary to get straight there, then the trip was pre-arranged --- and --- he headed straight there. If he left early (as mrs. states) then no one else would known that and no one would have contacted him that early on his pager to arrange an impromtu meeting);
3) In the wife's affidavit (just a reminder) she writes that he "had to" which is crossed off and replaced with "somethings come up". In order for her to have known that he "had to" something then she would have had to have heard it from Clift either on the message left at 4 or in another phone call after that. She wouldn't otherwise have known;
3) Clift clearly only says that Lemme said "somethings come up." Therefore he is withholding KEY information from his affidavit. (The information that mrs. almost alluded to);
4) The prearranged meeting was just over the Florida line. What position would some trusted source have to be in for him/her to make a convincing argument to Lemme that he/she had to meet him just outside of Florida. An attorney?
5) Lemme is conscientious enough to tell Clift he'll be late for work but neglects to ask Clift to tell FDOT counsel that he will miss or be late to the appointment? Lemme even waits to call Clift til he thinks Clift is at the office. If Lemme was planning his own suicide wouldn't he also have asked Clift to tell Counsel that he may at least need to reschedule? I think so.
6) Maybe it was Counsel that lured him to Valdosta for the set up. And this is why Lemme didn't bother to ask Clift to tell Counsel "he had to" something.
7) Counsel calls Clift at 2pm to say Lemme didn't make it to the meeting. In other words, Lemme didn't make it to the meeting. Clift does not call Lemme's home until 4pm.
COMMENT #200 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/19/2005 @ 7:43 pm PT...
Ding ding ding ding ding!
COMMENT #201 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/19/2005 @ 7:48 pm PT...
Oh, and, this also relieves Counsel of having to act on the information that Lemme may impart in the 1.30 meeting that coincidentally is scheduled on the same day he is killed. And coincidentally is scheduled for about the same time as Curtis says the case would blow. Counsel is the one who would have to prosecute. Lemme was not a lawyer.
As for the empty manilla and pad, the pad was in the manilla and Lemme was prepared to take notes on new information that he was lured to get. He probably always took a pad to a meeting - I always do.
As for having only $5. Someone took the rest.
COMMENT #202 [Permalink]
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Cole...
said on 3/19/2005 @ 8:12 pm PT...
Hi Fred #162
It seems likely without any contrary proof that the form on the 29th is a room reservation form and the credit crd payment form on the 30th -a.m. is for the room until the next day.
The fleabag may have a 'pay in advance policy' in general or for out of state customers.
I do not want to take a "I support the police" but togive the devil its due---the body was in a locked from the inside, neat, no sign of combat, suicide note etc room, so a reasonable conclusion is suicide. And that an 'out of stater' is the deceased, and that the boss backs up the theory of suicide does not leave a lot of room for persuit.
In spite of that there were investigations noted as far as the 8th of July, at least.
A lot of the reason for doubt of suicide has been stated in this thread, and worked on by ithe contributers, such as times which do not jell, mutuality of comments in affidavites etc.
But most troubling of all--for me---is why a fleabag spot in Georgia which was arranged the day before like it was a glamour spot on a Monday? And, in spite of "LOVE" on the note and 'spoken' this choice was extremely not 'loving'. The spouce would have to take a long drive out to identify his body and a long trip back!?
Suicide or suicided? If Lemme did not sign the credit card receipt on the 30th then we go quickly to the second choice.
So---anyone have a copy of Lemme's signature to compare it?
Note that the 'LOVE' in the suicide notes are capital print and that the 'L' in Lemme on the receipt is capital script. And just for oddities it looks like the scripted 'L' in the spouce signed affidavit.
COMMENT #203 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/19/2005 @ 8:31 pm PT...
Related to #199 item #5. Clarification - Lemme could have made it back in time for the meeting --- if he thought his little meeting in Valdosta was innocent. So Lemme may not have told Clift to notify Counsel of any delay if he thought he'd be back in time. BUT, if he was planning suicide he would have been consciencious enough to do so.
COMMENT #204 [Permalink]
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Peggy
said on 3/19/2005 @ 9:14 pm PT...
Hi, Miss Persistence - How about this version of events:
Lemme told Clift/someone he had evidence and would be going to FDOT lawyer, or the FDOT lawyer told Clift/someone Lemme had an appointment to see her about something big on Monday afternoon.
Guilty parties are notified or find out. Guilty parties decide that Lemme would have to be terminated by a professional assassin (PA) before he saw FDOT lawyer, or told anyone else.
Guilty parties arrange for Lemme's credit card number to be used to reserve the Georgia motel room on Sunday (JUN 29). A MANILA ENVELOPE containing photos of Lemme was provided to the PA so he would recognize Lemme.
Lemme received a phone call or page on Sunday (JUN 29) during the day or evening requesting an "urgent" meeting, sounding legitimate. Lemme left home early on Monday morning (JUN 30).
The meeting location could have been anywhere, even his home town. It was a trap, and Lemme was kidnapped by the PA at gunpoint.
The phone call from the payphone was from the PA to Clift and/or guilty parties advising he had Lemme, or from Lemme at gunpoint saying he'd be late to slow down any checking on Lemme's whereabouts.
The PA submitted Lemme's credit card and signed the receipt after having practiced the signature, or Lemme was ordered at gunpoint to keep quiet and sign the receipt.
In the motel room, Lemme was told to sign the suicide note. If he cooperated his family would be spared. The PAD was necessary to write a suicide note.
The DIARY was checked by the PA to see if Lemme had recorded the Monday morning meeting.
Summary: The PA was hired by the guilty parties and brought in from out of town for the job, provided with photos of Lemme and told to make it look like suicide. Simple and straight forward.
COMMENT #205 [Permalink]
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Peggy
said on 3/19/2005 @ 9:20 pm PT...
P.S. After signing the suicide note, Lemme was drugged or overpowered or killed, put into the bath tub, and his arm slashed. The PA was able to EASILY lock the door from the outside to reinforce the idea of suicide.
Mrs. Lemme knows her husband was murdered. She also knows he did whatever possible to protect his family, because HE LOVED HIS FAMILY AND HE LOVED HIS WIFE.
COMMENT #206 [Permalink]
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Bob Bilse
said on 3/19/2005 @ 9:22 pm PT...
Just for the record, my vote was for murder the first time I heard Clint Curtis talking about it.
Everything that has arisen since has strengthened that opinion, not weakened it. But, at the end of the day, it's just my impression (as it is Clint Curtis', by his inference in the interview I heard). I'm in no position to investigate it. Wish I was.
COMMENT #207 [Permalink]
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Peggy
said on 3/19/2005 @ 9:23 pm PT...
Apologies to Miss Persistent - (not persistence). Looking forward to reading more. Thanks.
COMMENT #208 [Permalink]
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Bob Bilse
said on 3/19/2005 @ 9:27 pm PT...
Peggy, isn't the suicide note unsigned?
COMMENT #209 [Permalink]
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Peggy
said on 3/19/2005 @ 9:35 pm PT...
Hi, Bob - Okay, correction:
In the hotel room, Lemme was told to WRITE A suicide note. The PA doesn't care if he signs it, or dates it, or not. Just have Lemme write a "convincing sounding" suicide note, to spare the lives of his family.
COMMENT #210 [Permalink]
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Peggy
said on 3/19/2005 @ 9:39 pm PT...
When Lemme starts to write the suicide note, he first puts the time at 8:10. So Lemme was alive at 8:10 and tells his family for the last time that he loves them. The PA murders Lemme shortly after that.
COMMENT #211 [Permalink]
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Peggy
said on 3/19/2005 @ 9:47 pm PT...
Note on the professional assassin (PA): The job of the hired PA, in this instance, is to murder Lemme and make it look like suicide. It is not likely that the PA was told who his employers/the guilty parties are, why (the long dirty story), or to torture Lemme for infomation (for instance, information incriminating guilty parties "at the top"). The guilty parties simply want the PA to murder Lemme and get out of town, UNTIL THE NEXT JOB requiring the services of a PA.
COMMENT #212 [Permalink]
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czaragorn
said on 3/20/2005 @ 2:14 am PT...
I'm watching a Columbo rerun right now - it still sounds funny to me, all in Czech and all - and I found myself thinking about Porfiry Petrovich in Crime in Punishment (he was the very first prototype of what Columbo et al. have been refining ever since, but that's another story), who made his suspect so nervous he broke. What could make someone like Tom Feeney that nervous? How about brave crews to turn out in the streets everywhere he goes, waving placards with the pertinent questions? Does any of us know someone that brave?
COMMENT #213 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 3/20/2005 @ 2:49 am PT...
It who be an idea to look back thru the motel books to see if Lemme had previous "meetings" with an informant in this motel ,dating back to the start of his "big case".
Getting a FOIA on his "pettycash/expenses" reimburstments reciepts from his office would show if he regularly did this sort of pick-up.
COMMENT #214 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/20/2005 @ 6:36 am PT...
Item #12 of Post #6 shows how the plan includes giving power to lie and to cover up. It takes power to distort the facts into "news". And this is the power that is maintaining the neocon movement.
It is a phenomenon that is pervasive everywhere in the MSM now. The facts are viewed thru the lens of "I wish" and one hand is on one side of the balance that weighs the facts.
The hand of bias. This link shows the unending practice of the neocon movement to lie to anyone and everyone to cover up the facts ... or spin them in some way.
The power to do this comes from the power to appoint officials, and to transfer large sums of money to benefit the coalition of the coverup.
But it is alienating much of the world ... the part that previous admins took great pains to establish working relationships with.
What we want to do is be very careful with the facts so the practice is still alive after this admin of neocons has ravished the world with distortion.
COMMENT #215 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/20/2005 @ 8:45 am PT...
Bob Bilse #206. We ALL think it's murder. But if we don't consider every fact and possibility (including real suicide) we lose credibility. It at least needs to be considered and discredited along some logical lines.
Czararagon #212, good analogy. Didn't Petrovich mainly just "look" at him like he was guilty and wait for him to incriminate himself (ala Brad's quote, give them plenty of rope...) Been a long time since I read Crime and Punishment though. I think the YEI people are the type to crack - their responses to the Clift affidavit were flimsy. And I think they are the type to save their own necks at any cost.
Peggy, I like my theory better
It's simpler and points to a couple of low-ladder culprits who are more likely to crack. But parts of yours fit in.
I am firmly a believer that Lemme did not check or reserve the room on Sunday. Way too complicated, no staff or maid activities fit with that scenario.
However, the meeting Monday WAS planned, otherwise Lemme wouldn't have left early in the morning and gone straight to Valdosta.
The meeting couldn't have been "anywhere" otherwise it WOULD have been "anywhere." For some reason it HAD to be in another state but not too far.
Lemme checks himself in, still unsuspecting, and waiting for his apointment to show up. He's being watched, and they wait until he's got his stuff in the motel. Too many possiblities for error if there are a couple of thugs standing by telling him to do things that they could just expect him to do naturally.
EXCEPT for the guys who were spotted outside his room at 7.30 and again at 8.00. They probably had him sign the note for a little ahead of time just to be safe - at a time when they would already have left but not rediculously ahead of time. THOSE guys may have been the PA's. They probably killed him before he bled to death. But we won't catch them.
It nags at me that Lemme didn't pass the word to Clift that he'd miss the 1.30 meeting with Counsel.
I woke up this morning thinking that Clift had told the "death planner" that Clift was neat. They arranged everything just thus and so. Except the shoes - neat but not in a straight line and not in the closet!
COMMENT #216 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/20/2005 @ 9:49 am PT...
Where's Snoopy? It tickles me to think Maybe he's in Valdosta...
COMMENT #217 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/20/2005 @ 10:35 am PT...
Item #12 of Post #6 is also shown by the incredible attention given to the Schiavo matter.
Jeb Bush wanted the tube to stay in. The christian right wants the same.
The congress is now feverishly working on legislation to bring it into the federal district courts ... after the Supreme Court declined to hear the matter last week.
It had come up on a state appeal path.
They neocons have full control of the agenda of news in the MSM, the agenda in congress, and the agenda in the courts.
And guess what? The facts of the Schiavo case are being presented as what people wish those facts were ... more so than what they really are.
After all the facts depend upon the testimony of experts. Experts have testified to the matter in courts and the courts have ruled accordingly.
The neocons poo poo the experts and want to inject "their facts" into the stream and reject the determination of the experts.
If this becomes a trend - one's own version of the facts rules over all - where will it end?
What is the solution? When is the official expert based version of the facts to be respected?
COMMENT #218 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/20/2005 @ 10:48 am PT...
This from the FDOT FY2000-2001 Planning Report:
link
"...Florida law requires that Inspectors General notify law enforcement authorities whenever a criminal law violation is believed to have occurred. Rather than merely meeting the statutory responsibility for notification, the Investigations Section proactively solicits assistance of law enforcement and prosecutorial agencies for involvement in cases that impact the Department.
"Once partnerships are established, the investigation proceeds jointly to a logical conclusion with OIG investigators and law enforcement agents working side-by-side with prosecutors. This approach is beneficial for several reasons. First, the Department itself actively pursues cases involving the protection of State Transportation Trust Fund dollars. Secondly, investigators who are familiar with functions and personnel in the Department can most effectively uncover investigative details within the Department. Thirdly, major events planned in any case, such as near-term indictments or arrests, can become known at the proper time to the Department’s senior managers before they become headlines in the press. Finally, Department managers in a position to correct weaknesses in internal processes can act promptly as a result of details uncovered as a part of a criminal investigation. As evidence of the success of partnering, this year the Investigations Section has continued to pursue cases jointly with criminal justiceagencies such as the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, and prosecutive agencies such as the United States Attorney’s Office, the Office of Statewide Prosecution for crimes such as grand theft, money laundering and organized schemes to defraud..."
Excerpts from Distribution List:
Tom Barry, Secretary
Jose Abreu, Secretary, District 6
Pamela Leslie, General Counsel
Marcia Cooke, Governor's Chief Inspector General, Attention: James Thomas
COMMENT #219 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/20/2005 @ 11:29 am PT...
MissP #203 -
EXACTLY. I was thinking that exact same thought. The question must also be asked in conjunction: Why, if Lemme was going to commit suicide, would he leave an hour early? If the answer is that "he wanted to leave before his wife woke up, so he could avoid any questions from her", then why on God's green earth would he risk calling his boss at 6:20am when his boss could have possibly answered the phone? Why not call his bosses office at 5:20am from home? The answer is if Lemme didn't want to talk to anyone (to avoid questions) he would not have risked calling his boss's office at 6:20am. If his boss answered, then he might of asked, "What do you mean 'something's come up'? Is it a professional something or a personal something?"
Taking that, in combination with your suggestion about Lemme not "re-scheduling" the 1:30 GC appt, and the conclusion is that Lemme WAS NOT planning suicide. These behavior patterns strongly suggests that Lemme was in fact going to be late to work only because he "had to" get some info in Valdosta, but would be back in time for the 1:30pm.
The thought I woke up to this morning was this, and it has been mentioned before (Snoopy #327). Given the fact that the detectives thought it was important enough to review video tapes at the convenience store, why didn't they ask to review the tapes in the Knight's Inn front desk? This question is important, because the answers are very revealing.
As of July 2, 2003, the case was labeled "suicide" and was filed closed. Yet on July 8, 2003, Detective Spencer decides he needs to call the convenience store to ask questions. Why? To gather more evidence for a case that is already closed? It's obvious Spencer was looking for more evidence he could find to help "back up" the suicide storyline, and that evidence he was looking for concerned the razors. You see, AFTER he reviewed the video tapes (only from 6/30 & 7/1 - not 6/29 because if Lemme was spotted in Valdosta then, it would cause problems for the case) Spencer looked at the razor selection in the store. That's a safe item to look for - if he finds the same razors then Great; it supports the case. If the razors are not there - then no big deal. Detective Spencer observed that the convenience store did not sell the razors Lemme had: that's safe information.
But this is where it get's interesting. There were 2 other "new/unused" looking items found in the room. Why not ask to see if the store sold the same brand of Legal pad paper and same brand manilla envelopes found in Lemme's room? The answer is because that's a DANGEROUS inquiry.
If those 2 products were found in the store, it would provide the possibility that Lemme bought them there, which creates a problem for the suicide case. WHY would Lemme buy a manilla envelope and legal pad of paper at the convenience store next to the motel he kills himself in AND NOT USE THEM? That behavior would suggest he didn't intend to kill himself, and the fact that the detective did not choose that line of inquiry is revealing of his motivations not to jeopardize the suicide conclusion.
And finally, the most important question: If it was important enough for the detective to review videotapes at the convenience store, why wouldn't the detective ask to do the same at the Front desk in the hotel? Because that's a DANGEROUS inquiry, as well. You see, if they review the tapes at the motel, then a whole slew of problems could arise. Some possiblilties could be that Lemme doesn't show up at the times suggested by the hotel receipts - or doesn't show up at all, then it throws the suicide conclusion for a loop. More importantly, the tapes could reveal the identity of other THIRD-PARTIES that may have had involvment with Lemmes death. The fact that Detective Spencer did not choose this line of inquiry reveals his motivation, once again, of intentionally avoiding any possibility of spoiling the "suicide conclusion" by only choosing "safe lines" of inquiry.
This reminds me of Sherlock Holmes case of "The dog that did not bark". In-other-words, it's an inside job.
Everyone, have a wonderful Sunday!
COMMENT #220 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/20/2005 @ 11:39 am PT...
And Fred, don't forget, that store did not carry the type of razor blades used in the Lemme case - so they didn't come from there. At least Spencer found that out. Maybe he's our leaker. Maybe he went on his own because he got to thinking. Maybe he's pressured not to investigate on his own.
Maybe they don't have video at the front desk and Spencer went to the next nearest place he could find.
COMMENT #221 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/20/2005 @ 12:10 pm PT...
MissP, if the detectives had asked that question concerning video at the front desk, it would have been in their notes/report. They would have noted:
1) Who they asked
2) When they asked
3) What the question was
4) What the answer was
I agree that it's useful information that Spencer discovered the answer to the razors. I'm grateful for that. But what about all the other obvious questions that should have been asked? Why weren't they asked? It's basic stuff.
I also agree that one of the possibilities is that Spencer was being pressured. That could be where the MOTIVATION came for these "safe" lines of inquiry.
What bothers me is what MOTIVATION is NOT displayed by the detectives. That should be the motivation to find the truth. I don't see that here, and that's why this case should be reopened.
I don't believe that the "inside" part of "inside job" necessarily implicates the detectives. If the detectives were a part of it, they would have made the "unsafe" inquiries but simply lied in their reports. No, it's the absence of mention in the reports that suggests they were told what lines of inquiry they could pursue. That means the "inside" part came from higher up the food chain.
COMMENT #222 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/20/2005 @ 12:14 pm PT...
MissP #220 -
I did not forget that. I wrote that in my post:
"Detective Spencer observed that the convenience store did not sell the razors Lemme had: that's safe information."
COMMENT #223 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/20/2005 @ 12:53 pm PT...
Perhaps the Attorney we are looking for (this connects fdot with real estate development):
(Rummell is Chairman of St. Joe)
"St. Joe has donated the maximum legal amount to more than 100 candidates for Cabinet and legislative posts from both parties over the past five years, with subsidiaries like Arvida often making an identical donation to the same candidates.... Rummell and his wife gave $20,000 to the Republican National Committee during the last presidential race. The attorney shepherding St. Joe's development plans in Bay County, William Harrison, co-chaired the Bush presidential campaign in the Panhandle. And St. Joe bought a one-third interest in Gov. Jeb Bush's former real estate company, the Codina Group in Miami" ...This is a quote from an article in the St. Petersburg Times on Apr 21, 2002 by CRAIG PITTMAN.
... Galloway, 8/16/02
http://www.whoseflorida.com/great_northwest.htm
And more on Harrison from Insider:
"A major part of the Insider's investigation was carried out in Lowndes and Echols counties in and around Valdosta, Georgia and stemmed in part from an on-going illegal alien smuggling operation in Bay County, Florida. The Bay County operation was part of our story "License To Steal", in the Fall 2003 print edition of Emerald Coast Insider Magazine, in which we directly linked White House transition team member William Harrison, Jr. to Big Wheel Recycling and Aztec Environmental of Panama City, Florida.
"Our story at the time centered upon apparent influence peddling by Harrison within the U.S. Marshall's Service in Washington and the dumping of toxic waste in Bay county, Florida. We were unaware that smuggling illegal aliens was involved until the FBI, EPA and Homeland Security raided Aztec and Big Wheel's offices in February 2004 at Panama City, Florida, after publication of our story."
And this:
"William Gerald Harrison, Jr. is an attorney and partner with the firm of Harrison, Rivard, Zimmerman, Bennett in Panama City, Florida. At the time that he became a director of BWRI of Florida, he was also a registered lobbyist for the St. Joe Company and a member of Governor Jeb Bush’s 1998-1999 transition team. He was also a member of President George W. Bush’s transition team in 2000-2001.
Two William Harrison's represented these people in March 2005 IN HAWAII:
CR 04-00041DAE
02:25
USA
Attorneys:
Michael K. Kawahara
(01) Yong Kim (02) Y. K. B., Inc., doing business as "Brudda's Market"
Attorneys:
(01) William Harrison (02) William Harrison
How could this NOT be father and son.
Final Pretrial Conference
CR 04-00422DAE
02:25
USA
Attorneys:
Michael Kawahara
(01) Yong Kim (02) Y.K.B., Inc. dba "Brudda's Market"
Attorneys:
(01) and (02) William Harrison Interpreter: Susan Wehrman
Final Pretrial Conference
link
And now the connection between Brudda's market and crime:
Law enforcement agents from the Drug Enforcement Agency and the Honolulu Police Department seized more than $45,000 worth of
inventory. They said the items included 849 crack pipes, 759 ice pipes, 116 digital scales, 763 butane torches and 1,002 marijuana pipes.
According to the DEA, drug paraphernalia comprise any legitimate equipment, product or material that is modified or manufactured for making, using or concealing illegal drugs. They also include bongs,
rolling papers, hitter boxes used to store and smoke marijuana, and everyday devices like pens and lipstick holders that have been modified to accommodate the use of illegal drugs.
Some of the businesses raided yesterday are: The Pump Liquor in Waipahu, Chubby's Pantry in Pearl City, Nani Mini Market in Kalihi, Brudda's Market on North School Street, Nu'uanu Liquors and Sundries
in Nu'uanu, McCully Market on McCully Street, Date Street Grocery on Date Street, and the Y.T. Market on Kapahulu Avenue.
"Most of the businesses are "mom-and-pop" type establishments. At least one is owned by a husband and wife.
"The 10 people were arrested on federal charges of selling drug paraphernalia. They were Yong C. Tanaka, 59; Seon H. Kim, 48; Yeong E. Chung, 31; Sang M. Chung, 66; Sung K. Medeiros, 55; Edwin
Medeiros, 57; Yong Kim, 55; Nan H. B. Chong, 53; Jong Y. Baik, 45; and Byung D. Hwang, 50.
"The investigation that culminated in yesterday's arrests began in September when undercover HPD officers began purchasing drug paraphernalia from businesses. During each buy, the officer had to
establish, through conversation, that the store owner or employee knew what the pipes or other products were used for.
William Gerald Harrison, Jr. sounds like a pretty interesting guy. Who called them in to represent this little mom and pop deal?
COMMENT #224 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/20/2005 @ 12:56 pm PT...
Whoops, how do you unbold?
COMMENT #225 [Permalink]
...
Peggy
said on 3/20/2005 @ 1:44 pm PT...
It's interesting about the "legal pad". Was it a "legal-sized" pad, bound at the top, with lines on it. Or was it a "letter-sized" pad, bound at the top, with lines on it. I have worked in offices for many, many years, and frankly have rarely found "legal-sized" pads used. They are too cumbersome. 99% of the time, letter-sized pads were used. Are "legal-sized" pads generally used in particular industries, such as law offices, or accounting firms? What say you? What kind of pad would a "hit man" purchase? Legal size, or a cheap note book? Was the legal pad supplied to the "hit man" to practice Lemme's signature along with photos of Lemme? Was, in fact, the suicide note written in the black diary?
COMMENT #226 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/20/2005 @ 1:56 pm PT...
can ya fix the width AGAIN
COMMENT #227 [Permalink]
...
Peggy
said on 3/20/2005 @ 2:07 pm PT...
Googling - Knights Inn Hotel is listed as servicing Valdosta Regional Airport. Lemme could have been meeting someone who flew in early to Valdosta Airport on Monday morning, from/thru Atlanta, or elsewhere. Can we find out what flights if any, coincide with Lemme's early departure from home to meet his contact at Valdosta Regional Airport and continue on to Knight's Inn on Monday, June 30, 2003? (Is 2003 correct?) Thanks anyone, everyone.
COMMENT #228 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/20/2005 @ 2:17 pm PT...
check rental car from airport to Knights inn for day and day after "suicide"
COMMENT #229 [Permalink]
...
Peggy
said on 3/20/2005 @ 3:23 pm PT...
Other ideas: If Lemme's investigation was shut down by the FDOT, would he go "over their heads" to Washington? Is the connection to Moody's AFB? If fraud was taking place at FDOT, similar fraud could be taking place at Valdosta and other airports. Is there a common thread/persons between Yang/fraud/DOT's nationally, and Washington D.C?
COMMENT #230 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/20/2005 @ 3:59 pm PT...
RE: this link "http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/20/
Tampabay/Schiavo_ _ _Come_down__.shtml" (take out the two spaces)
The top three of the ladder mentioned in post #4 are involved in a case involving one american. That one american is not Raymond Lemme.
But this fact and the Schiavo story shows how linked the top three on that list are. How totally politically linked.
Fifteen years ago Terry Schiavo lost her brain and her consciousness. For the seven last years the courts have litigated her right to die with dignity. Her husband wants to "let her go home" and has fought to "let her go and be with the lord".
They have some traditional religious beliefs ... like the Bush family claims to have.
It reminds me of the story about the preacher who was preaching about going to heaven. He kept talking about how wonderful it was, and asking those who wanted to go to stand up and prepare to meet the Lord. Eventually he noticed a man sitting instead of standing ... in the very first row.
He stopped his frenzied preaching for a moment ... looked at the man directly ... and asked "why are you sitting down ... don't you want to go to heaven and meet the Lord"?
"Well preacher", the man replied, "I thought you were getting together a group to go right now".
And so it is. If the beliefs are religious and not political, why do they not have the faith to let the vegetative state cease and the heavenly state enter the picture?
It is political power that is at work. The top three on the ladder are acting out subconscious energies in my estimation. They subconsciously see Terri Schiavo as those they want to stay in a political vegetative state ... to keep feeding them even tho they are politically unaware, in such a vegitative state that brain dead is a fair word.
It does show how formidible they are and how formidible any movement to "open" the Lemme death matter would be. They are as dead set against opening it as they are to keep Terri Schiavo in a vegetative state.
The Lemme matter will not be touched without the utmost clear and convincing evidence IMO.
COMMENT #231 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/20/2005 @ 4:09 pm PT...
Miss Persistent #181 "First, let me say, I am currently thinking he did it himself but this only supports the gravity of the case he was working on. I feel that either way, if he was murdered OR driven to suicide...the cause was the same. The case. I think it's horrendous either way you look at it."
I think it could be either way ... IOW I don't know.
But I agree with you 100% that it does not matter.
If what he uncovered was so bad that it destroyed his faith so much that he did not want to live anymore ... as I said in the original thread ... it is as you say, just the same.
PS. Your talk on suicide (a very mysterious disease) was helpful.
COMMENT #232 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/20/2005 @ 4:22 pm PT...
Billy #192 "As for whether Mr. Lemme was murdered or died by his own hand, we don't know, and we can't know, because the police investigation was neither thorough nor convincing. This is precisely the point."
Indeed. In the original thread I pointed out and posted the Georgia law governing the VPD investigation of the Lemme death.
I also pointed out and posted, in that thread, the scholarly way to proceed in any apparent suicide case.
The VPD did not follow these procedures nor the spirit of the law very well. And now the body is said to have been cremated.
That was a key piece of evidence which should not have been destroyed.
The way the case was handled, and the nature of the investigation raises reasonable questions which we have explored in this thread and the original one.
But we dare not make the same mistake they did and conclude prematurely. We would then have no high moral ground from which to criticize them.
COMMENT #233 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/20/2005 @ 4:28 pm PT...
Emma #195 I apologize if I or any of the rest of us have intimidated you in any way.
I have tried to cultivate an environment where both sides of the Lemme death issue are presented.
I personally do not know if it was murder or if it was suicide. So I entertain both theories.
Thank you for posting.
COMMENT #234 [Permalink]
...
Peggy
said on 3/20/2005 @ 4:39 pm PT...
Thanks, Dredd. So, assuming Lemme knew "the ladder", who might he speak to in Washington, if he did?
If Lemme died shortly after arriving at the motel @ 8:10 a.m., how long does it take to drive from Tallahasse to Moody's AFB? then from Moody's to the motel?
Maybe the two black men in the parking lot were the "hit men" (keep it simple), who came from Moody's AFB.
Well, I'm all out of "guestimation".
It certainly proves how EASILY a handful of criminals can take over an entire country, shut down the media, shut down criminal investigations which threaten to expose them, shut down any opposition thru bribes (and probably blackmail), shut down free and fair elections, shut down democracy, and excercise complete power over millions of people and their assets. I don't know if America will ever be free of them. What will it take?
COMMENT #235 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/20/2005 @ 5:33 pm PT...
Hey y'all - just got back from a little trip. I'll try to "unbold."
Interesting info on William Harrison cases. I'm still reading.
COMMENT #236 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/20/2005 @ 5:35 pm PT...
Well - didn't work for me. Hmm - Where's Winter Patriot??? Wish I was more of a tekkie.
COMMENT #237 [Permalink]
...
Winter Patriot
said on 3/20/2005 @ 6:19 pm PT...
Hi guys. Sorry it took me so long to get over here today. Lots of other stuff happening. doodah, doodah.
COMMENT #238 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/20/2005 @ 6:53 pm PT...
Winter Patriot - I got some help from my computer guru husband who helped me look at the source of this page & problematic html codes...
Anyway, the page width problem comes from inserting a long web address which forces the column to reformat.
The page (or column) width problem comes from post #218:
This from the FDOT FY2000-2001 Planning Report:
http://66.102.7.104/search?
This is a VERY long web addy.
So - everybody - if we post VERY long web addresses we will be screwing up the column width here.
COMMENT #239 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/20/2005 @ 7:02 pm PT...
By the way --- Hello Emma and WELCOME! Jump on in with us.
We're probably all a little frazzled. I know I've been doing this kind of stuff & research almost non-stop since June and others have been at it longer.
Thanks for reminding us to be more gracious.
COMMENT #240 [Permalink]
...
Peg C
said on 3/20/2005 @ 7:09 pm PT...
Miss P - Great find on the Harrisons. And it explains why one is in FL, the other in GA, as per an earlier post, by Kira I think.
COMMENT #241 [Permalink]
...
Peg C
said on 3/20/2005 @ 7:15 pm PT...
As for posting long web addresses: why not just link 'em?
COMMENT #242 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/20/2005 @ 7:42 pm PT...
Peg C #240
What I posted was Michael A. O'Quinn (the attorney for YEI) in Florida and the Michael A. O'Quinn in GA, but I have decided they are not the same person.
Was one of the William Harrison attorneys from GA?
COMMENT #243 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/20/2005 @ 7:49 pm PT...
Peg C., After I screwed everything up, I searched feverishly for the post you wrote to Kira about how to bold and unbold (I was on another mission at the time
but didn't see it after a few passes and had to run out.
If you wouldn't mind, a quick lesson for me in bold/unbold AND linking (or any other helpfuls) would be awesome.
Humbly yours, Miss P.
COMMENT #244 [Permalink]
...
Peg C
said on 3/20/2005 @ 8:38 pm PT...
Hi, Miss P -
I must have misremembered the names, then; it had occurred to me at the time that they might be father/son. Sorry about that.
To unbold: just begin a new post with . It wont erase the bold from previous posts (only an administrator can do that), but it will stop the steamroller from rolling on!
Links: I'll have to demonstrate this using square brackets [], but you should substitute when posting.
[a href="http://whateverlink.com"]your words[/a].
Hope that helps.
COMMENT #245 [Permalink]
...
Peg C
said on 3/20/2005 @ 8:42 pm PT...
Sorry about that -
To unbold: just begin a new post with [/b] (substitute for []).
COMMENT #246 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/20/2005 @ 8:46 pm PT...
I also looked for Peg C's earlier post which gave the html for bold etc. but couldn't find it either ... anyway:
Replace square brackets with
[b] start bold [/b] end bold
[i] start italics [/i] end italics
COMMENT #247 [Permalink]
...
casolaro
said on 3/20/2005 @ 11:09 pm PT...
Kira, all:
Highlight the long URL that you want to post, but don't post it here. Instead, CTRL-c to copy it then go to:
http://www.tinyurl.com
and ctrl-v to paste that. It converts huge long addresses into nice short ones.
COMMENT #248 [Permalink]
...
casolaro
said on 3/20/2005 @ 11:27 pm PT...
COMMENT #249 [Permalink]
...
casolaro
said on 3/21/2005 @ 2:02 am PT...
Peggy 234: It's "Moody AFB" not Moody's. On a weekday morning, the drive would take about half an hour, or a little more if you're obeying all the speed limits. There's a fairly new parkway that loops from NE to SW, and which is a tremendous help in that regard.
If you keep trying to drag the US Air Force into this on the Bad Guy side, you are going to sound like a wacked-out UFOlogist. No offense, I don't think you are one, but are you suggesting that the entire Air Force (or at least one whole AFB), of which Ray was a member, is engaged in a conspiracy of silence to cover up his assassination, or just that contract hit men would for some reason use an Air Force base as a center of operations if they happened to want to bump off an Air Force reservist, rather than, say, driving down from Atlanta or up from Florida and basing in some fleabag hotel, most probably not the one in question?
Let me suggest something, before the paranoia level gets too uncomfortable to continue: most people are relatively good and relatively honest and do their jobs with a reasonable amount of dedication, and that goes for Air Force personnel as well as teachers and doctors and telephone linemen and so forth. If you are not willing to make that assumption as a starting point, then there is no point in investigating this, nor in voting, nor in communicating with others. If that is *not* the case, then there would be no public outrage no matter what heinousness was uncovered. Sort of like the Dixon trailer in Homosassa - "what's he gone and done? Dunno, but let's not say anything when the cops ask." If you honestly think most Americans react that same way, then it's time to move. Or dig the shelter. Or whatever. But I think you know in your heart that people are confused, sometimes idiotic, and very occasionally sociopathic and depraved, but that for the most part people have basically good instincts and want to help one another and to see justice - real justice - prevail. That's why lying to oneself is such a fine art - most people need to feel justified in what they choose to do (to be Good Guys).
COMMENT #250 [Permalink]
...
casolaro
said on 3/21/2005 @ 2:15 am PT...
And thanks for the link mechanic stuff, Peg C. One of the sites on which I post more regularly detects the http:// tag and immediately hotlinks to whatever's in the continuous character string including that designator. M'y lazy!
COMMENT #251 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/21/2005 @ 5:49 am PT...
RE: the ladders in posts #4. #6 The T. Schiavo case is now in the federal court in Tampa (link here).
A while back Brad posted a thread wondering if Henry Nee had been given special treatment (red chinese communist spy gets $100 fine for sending military electronics to china, and probation).
That thread pointed out it could be that his theory that Nee became an informant (double agent) in trade for going easy on him was valid ... OR that the federal judges there had been compromised and had gone easy on him cause they were told to.
This would have been in the Florida federal courts where Florida federal judges would have made the decisions.
Perhaps we have a clue now because these in the ladder have gone thru a desperate action in the Terri Schiavo case to get it before a Florida federal judge. They changed state rights, big brother non-interference, and long-standing common law principles going back to the founding of the nation to get their way. It is unbelievable.
These guys usually do their homework. So, they have put it before a federal judge by changing 300 or so years of law because:
1) they know how he will rule (cause they tell him how to rule)
2) this will be enough to get the wingnuts off their back cause they can blame it on a federal judge if he rules against them
Keep an eye on these events in the T. Schiavo case cause they expose the close links in the top three of the ladder ... and attach Tom DeLay to it as well.
COMMENT #252 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/21/2005 @ 6:01 am PT...
Thanks girls Peg C. and Kira, I should be able to pretty up my posts up a bit from here on!
COMMENT #253 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/21/2005 @ 6:07 am PT...
Peg C #244 "Links: I'll have to demonstrate this using square brackets [], but you should substitute when posting.
[a href="http://whateverlink.com"]your words[/a]."
If you do not want your links to blot out the Brad Blog page you are on when you link, do it this way:
[a href="http://whateverlink.com"] target="_blank" your words[/a]
(bold added to part that needs to be added)
This will cause the browser to open the link in a new window and your Brad Blog page and location will not be stepped on.
Peg C # 173 "Dredd, you are a pedant. RLM, you are uncompromisingly pompous but perceptive."
And Peg you are pontificating.
COMMENT #254 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/21/2005 @ 6:34 am PT...
I found an interesting factor in the T. Schiavo case. It is a strange date ...
There is a decision in the Federal District Court, middle district, by federal judge James S. Moody, dated March 18, 2005 (link here).
He ruled against the neocons.
That was last Friday.
So was the weekend ballyhoo where congress got a burr in their saddle and changed 300 years of law in response to this decision, or in response to the Supreme Court which also denied their petition?
Why are Jeb, W, Feeney, and DeLay all in a tizzy? Have the preachers been sending them to hell in sermons or what?
What is clear is that they are thick as molasses when it comes time to stick together. The top three on the rung are political soul brothers it seems.
My post #255 has a link to a page that says a case was filed this morning (March 21, 2005). Can you believe the speed that the neocons can generate when they have a hardon issue?
The ladder in #4 and #6 is solid at the top. Bet the molasses flows all the way down to Clift.
COMMENT #255 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/21/2005 @ 7:10 am PT...
Casolaro #254 Good points. Note also the unpresidented affairs in the T. Schiavo case which I have been highlighting here, to show how powerful the links in the ladder in post #4 and #6 are.
Poo Pooing this power and proceeding as if Det. Columbo ruled the universe without even enough evidence to generate an indictment is a bad game plan.
Look where the T. Schiavo case has gone at light speed under the will of the top three on the ladder.
They are just as dead-set against the Lemme death being re-opened. So are Det. Columbo tactics going to overpower that? No.
It will take a look at the events at the Clift level and above, and it will have to be an earthshaking event to dislodge the power that has grown and can be demonstrably shown in all its glory. And it will have to be earthshaking evidence.
If we can't see how scary this is ... and how useless some tactics and strategies are ... then guess what?
COMMENT #256 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/21/2005 @ 7:12 am PT...
Dredd asks why we should presume ourselves to be more qualified to investigate a suspicious death (not a murder at this point, correct) than people who teach criminal detection in college (meaning Shannon Floyd).
Because her finding of suicide conflicts with Ray Lemme's timeline. It conflicts with the reasonable presumption that someone would not drive 80 miles to a fleabag motel in another state simply to kill himself. In the opinion of many on this blog (I'm not competent to say), it conflicts with the physical evidence (blood, body position, stopped watch). Because the handwriting on the suicide note (forward slanting letters, upward trending word path) suggests an optimistic person, hardly someone depressed or in pain.
But most especially because if Shannon Floyd's finding was correct, the Valdosta P.D. (especially considering its history) should have a vested interest in public acceptance of her finding. Yet they agreed to discontinue the reopened investigation, based entirely on a request or demand from someone in an out-of-state agency who has not been identified, when the decedent had been investigating high-level corruption within that very agency!
The latter point, for me, is far weightier than any individual piece of evidence, and imposes a duty on public officials to investigate separately.
COMMENT #257 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 3/21/2005 @ 8:53 am PT...
OT alert: re #238 Thanks, Kira. I caught some other stuff but not that one. LOL.
Re the bolding: somebody used "begin bold" rather than "end bold" and did this at least half a dozen times in the same post. So that big bold episode came from a single comment which had about a dozen "begin bold" tags and no "end bold" tags. It would have taken about a dozen comments beginning with "end bold" to turn it all off. LOL. Or one person with special access to change that comment to what it should have been in the first place. LOL again.
I should mention one more thing: You never need to post a comment asking us to fix the width. That's the first thing I look for whenever I visit. The other thing I look for right away is runaway bold (or italics) (or both). So you don't have to ask for that to be fixed either.
I apologize for any inconvenience caused by my absence. We now return to your regularly scheduled thread.
COMMENT #258 [Permalink]
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KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/21/2005 @ 9:01 am PT...
OT ('Cause I think I've just about run out of things to say on this topic so now I'm just reading and absorbing)
Winter Patriot #261 - You've spoiled us! We're so used to your guidance, when you're not here we just go to hell in a massive handbasket!
Nah, seriously, you were missed - and not just for technical reasons *grins*
COMMENT #259 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/21/2005 @ 9:17 am PT...
RE: Peak Oil post #6, item #2
This link shows that Congress is now officially processing PEAK OIL data.
The reality is upon us. The consideration that the western world is now facing the greatest security crisis in its history - and the ramifications for the entire security of the planet are NOT just for whackos anymore.
Wake up and smell the implications for the lies that drive the current politics and the desperation surfacing in the cover ups.
The Lemme death is a minor blip on the radar, even tho it is typical of the cover ups that will not only continue, but will increase.
Also expect T. Schiavo distractions, which are in accord with rung #12 on the ladder at post #6, to continue in frequency to aid in the cover up.
Yes, tabloid type sensationalism keeps the public eye away from the impending catastrophies that will take place as the polarizations in world politics and military blocs manifest and grow.
COMMENT #260 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/21/2005 @ 9:55 am PT...
If we can get Curtis' vote-rigging story to blow, and the hit on Lemme re-opened, and the connections to Jeb exposed, we'll have made ENORMOUS headway.
COMMENT #261 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/21/2005 @ 9:58 am PT...
RLM #130 "Dredd, if we argue about energy in connection with the Lemme case, we'll win the argument and lose the war. Your analysis might be entirely right, but that's for the history books to decide 50 years from now ... We have to keep the focus on the murder for now, not argue the political milieu which gave rise to it."
Here is a quote from a few days ago made by a conservative republican congressman:
"Why should they be terrified? Why should they be terrified just because we have reached the peak of oil production? Last year, China used about 30 percent more oil. India now is demanding more oil. As a matter of fact, China now is the second largest importer of oil in the world. They have passed Japan. When you look at how important oil is to our economy, you can understand the big concern if, in fact, we cannot produce oil any faster than we are producing it now and there are increasing demands, as there will be, for oil. In our country, for instance, we have a debt that we must service. It will be essentially impossible to service that debt if our economy does not continue to grow. So there are enormous potential consequences, which is why he says that these people are absolutely terrified by the phenomenon known as peak oil" (link here).
The concept of "Peak oil" is not just for wackos anymore.
RML the truth about the great crisis being covered up by the admin is beginning to leak out. In post #6 item #2 I mention this fact as a reason for the government's underlying foundation of cover up, deceit, and lies as policy. They know the reasons for the recent wars has to do with peak oil, but have lied to the public.
Many do not find government lying and this cover-up argument to be a stretch by any means.
To become wild-eyed about the Lemme death and limit ouselves to the language of the realm of Det. Columbo is the dead end tactic.
To the contrary of your argument, to show that the oil industry and corporate fascism is at work in cover-ups of the Lemme death ties it to the larger picture.
After all, what we are trying to do is show the desperate means and methods the admin and its minions will go to.
And we do this not to vindicate our own pet theories, but to get the public to understand they are on a train headed for catastrophy. And we do it in the hope it is in time to avoid the catastrophy ... if that is even possible now.
We have to work on the existing mistrust to move the flashlight or spotlight up the post #4 ladder. Beginning at Clift ... or bring it down from #1 on the post #4 ladder down to Clift.
Or both at once ... so long as we are connecting the dots.
COMMENT #262 [Permalink]
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vdres
said on 3/21/2005 @ 10:29 am PT...
Facts:
The Knights Inn is among the closest Valdosta motels to Tallahassee on 84, allowing Mr. Lemme to return more quickly for his afternoon appointment.
Commercial flights to VLD are to and from Atlanta only.
Regarding suicide/murder cover-up or negligence: keep in mind Perdue's hefty budget cuts, which crimped much state institutional activity peaking in 03-04. That is, autopsies aren't free and it would be reasonable to assume that guidelines for performing them would have been become stricter. Perhaps Spencer may have been looking for more evidence to justify one, a la D. Jones, but didn't know what he was dealing with or looking for at the time.
(Consider FOIA with respect to Scarborough's assistant, for whom an autopsy was performed by a notoriously corrupt ME for sake of comparison.)
Are there links between St. Joe's and YEI? While peak oil is a real issue, more realistically we should look at near term financial windfalls that will insulate the wealthy and powerful before it becomes "real" to masses.
Two congressman cover Lowndes County--R-Jack Kingston in the north half and D-Sanford Bishop in the southern half.
To connect the top (however high) of this to the bottom, it would seem as though one would have to reconstruct Lemme's case, whatever it was. The fact of the death, regardless of manner, is less important, lamentably, than the information lost when Mr. Lemme died, for this forum.
COMMENT #263 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/21/2005 @ 10:39 am PT...
Valdosta and W?
The Washington Post Compares the Choices Bush and Kerry Made During Vietnam
Michael Dobbs and Lois Romano, in the Wash Post (Oct. 15, 2004):
It was December 1968, and the United States was in turmoil. The number of U.S. troops in Vietnam had reached a peak of half a million. Antiwar protests were paralyzing American campuses after the assassinations of Martin Luther King Jr. and Robert F. Kennedy. In Vietnam, a gangly U.S. Navy lieutenant named John F. Kerry steered his Swift boat up a river in the Mekong Delta, deep into enemy territory, witnessing firsthand a war he would soon conclude was no longer winnable. More than 8,000 miles away, in Valdosta, Ga., another son of privilege, George W. Bush, took off in a Cessna T-41 trainer, choosing to fulfill his wartime obligations stateside in the Texas Air National Guard.
target="_blank" link here
COMMENT #264 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/21/2005 @ 11:59 am PT...
THIS is very curious:
I was just reading Christopher Hitchens' essay on Ian McEwen in the "Atlantic" when I was jolted by the following paragraph. Make of it what you will...
"This same dryness and measure is very much present in McEwen's non-fiction writing since 9/11, inaugurated by an essay in the Guardian in which he very daringly underlined the three words - "I love you" - that were most commonly used in the final messages of those trapped on the planes and in the towers, and managed, without any appeal to gross sentiment, to fashion this into a perfect, cool indictment of the murderers."
COMMENT #265 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/21/2005 @ 12:03 pm PT...
COMMENT #266 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/21/2005 @ 12:11 pm PT...
I don't know what Casolaro is positing, but it isn't illumination. Please just link long addresses (and all others). It's easier and more polite.
COMMENT #267 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/21/2005 @ 12:33 pm PT...
COMMENT #268 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/21/2005 @ 12:39 pm PT...
COMMENT #269 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/21/2005 @ 12:42 pm PT...
Well, the FL emplpyees didn't link, so I'll submit it again.
Great stuff.
COMMENT #270 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/21/2005 @ 1:02 pm PT...
Excellent research y'all. Sheesh - there's so much to read and so many wiggling arms to this octopus. Last night I copied about 70 pages of documents plus 2 30-page .pdf files that I need to read through again before writing a synopsis.
Anyway - Here's a link to NOW with an eye-opening discussion re: The St. Joe Company and its power in FL. *Note* toward the end of the transcript Wm. Harrison is mentioned.
Florida Panhandlers
PS --- DREDD, check your html code containing target="_blank" for an extra space or missing something or other! It's not working. Thanks!
COMMENT #271 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/21/2005 @ 1:14 pm PT...
Also - while we're waiting for Dredd to repair the html code that will allow our links to open in a new window, there's another way to do it manually:
Right-click on the provided link and select "copy shortcut". Then open a new browser window. Click on the address bar (should highlight the current address) and using "Ctrl V", paste in the "shortcut" you just copied. Press the "Enter" key and you should be taken to the correct site. Your "Bradblog" page will still be open.
COMMENT #272 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/21/2005 @ 1:17 pm PT...
PS My previous suggestion only works on the ACTIVE links we've made using html code.
COMMENT #273 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/21/2005 @ 1:26 pm PT...
Oooo - Hey! I completely missed the easiest way of all to open in a new window!!!
When you "right-click" on the active link (in our posts) you have an option to "open in a new window" !!! That's sweet - and I use it all the time, so what was I thinking?
COMMENT #274 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 3/21/2005 @ 1:29 pm PT...
Dredd said:
Keep an eye on these events in the T. Schiavo case cause they expose the close links in the top three of the ladder ... and attach Tom DeLay to it as well.
This also fit the pattern this Administration uses to divert attention from the REAL ISSUES ,every time things quite down a new "attention getter" appears as if "a gift from God". Karl Rove is still at work ,don't forget , its a "magicians" only rule
ivert the Rubes from whats really happening.
COMMENT #275 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/21/2005 @ 1:51 pm PT...
COMMENT #276 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/21/2005 @ 2:00 pm PT...
all ']' must be converted to '>' and '[' must be converted to '
[a href="http://whateverlink.com"] target="_blank"] your words[/a]
sorry for leaving the one ']' out
COMMENT #277 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/21/2005 @ 2:03 pm PT...
One more time ...
all ']' must be converted to '>' and '[' must be converted to '
[a href="http://whateverlink.com" target="_blank"] your words[/a]
COMMENT #278 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/21/2005 @ 2:04 pm PT...
From BuzzFlash
"Leaked GOP talking points reveal Schiavo circus is a cynical political manipulation to fire up their pro-lifers. 'This is a great political issue' 3/20" --- (Direct link below):
Family Battle Turns Political
..."ABC News obtained talking points circulated among Senate Republicans explaining why they should vote to intervene in the Schiavo case. Among them, that it is an important moral issue and the 'pro-life base will be excited,' and that it is a 'great political issue --- this is a tough issue for Democrats.'
When asked about these talking points on 'Good Morning America,' DeLay said, 'I don't know where those talking points come from, and I think they're disgusting.'"
COMMENT #279 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/21/2005 @ 2:06 pm PT...
Dredd - try using your formula (just to humor me) and see if it works. TIA
COMMENT #280 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/21/2005 @ 2:23 pm PT...
COMMENT #281 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/21/2005 @ 2:25 pm PT...
Kira #279 I use it on all my links. Here is a link to your request.
It is framed as:
[a href="https://bradblog.com/archives/00001258.htm#279" target="_blank"]a link to your request[/a].
just change the [ to and the ] to >
COMMENT #282 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/21/2005 @ 2:35 pm PT...
Ok, this time it worked - I managed to figure out the missing > , and in the meantime I missed your other post where you clarified.
Thanks!!
COMMENT #283 [Permalink]
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Peggy
said on 3/21/2005 @ 3:26 pm PT...
Hi, Casolaro #253 - Just tossing various ideas out (albeit rather useless ones) on what may have happened to Ray Lemme.
If Lemme went above FDOT to Washington, then someone from Washington may have flown out to meet him at Moody AFB. Mr. Lemme may have then gone to the motel, willingly or unwillingly, where he was murdered. This would not involve Moody AFB as a whole. It would be nice to know if/what flights came in that morning to MAFB, that's all.
I vaguely recall reading somewhere about Valdosta Airport used to smuggle in illegal aliens. Maybe Lemme was following the "Henry Lee, illegal alien" angle.
Would someone with a foreign accent, or of oriental origin, stand out at a place like Knight's motel? Maybe the two black "muscle" guys WERE with Lemme in the parking lot...Madsen says the method of death looked very much like a mob hit. This does not exclude anyone from Washington having connections with the mob, for certain types of business.
MMIIXX #274 - Yes, another distraction.
Dredd - I like your thinking here. If GWB can be directly linked and "nailed" for just one serious wrongdoing he and his gang have committed, then the entire Administration will go down. That's the goal, isn't it??
COMMENT #284 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/21/2005 @ 4:01 pm PT...
Peggy #283
I hate to be so cynical, but truly, the bushies have already been "nailed" for a number of serious wrongdoings. Sheesh - what IS it going to take to bring down this regime?
COMMENT #285 [Permalink]
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Peggy
said on 3/21/2005 @ 5:20 pm PT...
Hi, Kira - I don't know ... the knife in his hands plunging into the body of his victim, blood dripping on his clothes, a smile on his face, all video-taped by the Pope (so no one can say it's a forgery)? That MIGHT do it?
COMMENT #286 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/21/2005 @ 5:29 pm PT...
Ahhh...wouldn't it be a happy day!
COMMENT #287 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/21/2005 @ 6:24 pm PT...
Kira, The St. Joe Company is quite a wild one isn't it? I read that link you mentioned in #270 earlier today. Not only is Harrison a lobbiest for St. Joe BUT St. Joe lobbies FDOT. AND Harrison was quite nicely affiliated with both Bush campaigns and transitions. This stuff is worth checking out. Harrison especially. He's got all the links necessary in the Lemme case.
COMMENT #288 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/21/2005 @ 6:52 pm PT...
Arrrgh!!!!!
What a nasty, stinking travesty life in these "United" States has become! Wild, delicate places can go to hell...we want MONEY. And MONEY. And MORE MO-O-O-ONEY! Has anyone here ever visited the springs and river systems around Appalachicola? They're stunning. And the birding is wonderful, because the panhandle crosses a major migratory route. Roads and airports and condos and parking lots are NOT good habitat.
COMMENT #289 [Permalink]
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Cole...
said on 3/21/2005 @ 7:02 pm PT...
Fred #219
There is another possible angle to the Lemme 6:20 a.m. call.
That is L. did not make the call. Let's say someone else made the call --for three reasons, 1. to fix L. in transit to the fleabag H., 2. to fix Clift in the office at 6:30 because he "saw the blinking light and got the message" and 3. without that call L. would not show at work and Clift would probably have to find out why (?). Clift did not.
But if Clift was also 'away' he would not be able to find out why (?), but would have an excuse--the call for not tring to find out why.
To 'legitimize' the call a call to L. was made and a message on 'his' phone was left. If L. wanted to call his wife he would use 'her' phone number.
The caller could have then called by his cell phone and taken the 'message' and deleted it. No blinking phone--!
In Clift's affidavit he states he called L. on his phone at 7:15 p.m. and uses the same words as Ann Marie. And the affidavit -altho not timed is given to the same person (#384) at Leon County Florida. Probably at the same time as Ann Marie's.
And why did Clift give that affidavit on the evening of the same day an employee does not show for work?
To back up his 'concern' and his being in Florida and he could prove it ---the call log from the phone bill. Later, afternoon calls of 'concern.
That is why the 'suicide' note is timed 8:10. Yet not signed. That note could be made in advance but if signed it would be compared by the VCD with the credit card receipt signature.
The 6:20/ 6:15 calls were essential to Clift--and totally unnecessary for a guy rushing to suicide himself.
My guess is that someone else arranged on 6/29 Sunday eve for the room and the next morning, using L.'s credit card signed and paid for the room and Clift was very envolved.
COMMENT #290 [Permalink]
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Cole...
said on 3/21/2005 @ 7:32 pm PT...
To me the suicide note is written with all letters very clear and words well spaced and was called by a VPD officer as being in the same style of writing in other pages of the day planner.
Yet the signature on the credit card receipt is low and slurred and cramped.
Anyone have a route to L.'s signature?
COMMENT #291 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/21/2005 @ 9:47 pm PT...
Hey guys, I just went back to an earlier Bradblog entry regarding the Lemme case. It was under an entry about the Ohio Ground War (during the election fiasco.) Anyway, I'm copying those comments here:
==============
QUALAR said...
...I am intriqued about the alleged suicide of the Florida Department of Transportation Inspector General, Raymond Camillo Lemme, in Valdosta, GA. You stated that you have several other documents from the Valdosta Police Department. Was an autopsy performed and was there a substantial amount of blood present in the hotel room? Very strange for a male to commit suicide by slashing one wrist. Similar to the alleged suicide of Dr. David Kelly who blew the whistle on the sexing-up of Iraqi WMD intelligence in England. The cause of his death is being seriously questioned. He too supposedly committed suicide by slashing one wrist, but there wasn't enough blood at the crime scene to cause death.
Again, keep us informed.
========
understandinglife said...
Qualar, you may be interested in this item:
Kelly death paramedics query verdict
"Kelly death paramedics query verdict......The Hutton inquiry found that the scientist caught in the storm over the 'sexed up' Iraq dossier committed suicide. Now, for the first time, the experienced ambulance crew who were among the first on the scene tell of their doubts about the decision. Special report by Antony Barnett
Sunday December 12, 2004 (more at the link)"
Peace.
"When Did Bush Know?"
==========
Kira's addition to above post - another bit from the Observer's story (which is very interesting btw):
..."Sitting next to Bartlett is his colleague, Vanessa Hunt. Like him, she has been a paramedic for more than 15 years. She does not hesitate either. 'There just wasn't a lot of blood... When somebody cuts an artery, whether accidentally or intentionally, the blood pumps everywhere. I just think it is incredibly unlikely that he died from the wrist wound we saw.'
On 18 July last year Bartlett and Hunt received an emergency call to attend a suspected suicide. Over the years they have raced to the scenes of dozens of attempted suicides in which somebody has cut their wrists. In only one case has the victim been successful.
'That was like a slaughterhouse,' recalls Hunt. 'Just think what it would be like with five or six pints of milk splashed everywhere.' If you slit your wrists, that is the equivalent amount of blood you would have to lose. "
-more-
========
agitprops said...
On the topic of Ray Lemme, here's a snip from an old AP story from March 28, 1994:
HEADLINE: Bond Denied for Pair Accused of Plotting to Kill Federal Judge
"Explosives, silencers and hollowed-out ammunition were found in the home of the owner of an investment company and her son, who are charged with plotting to kill a judge who shut down their business, federal agents testified Monday...
"According to the affidavit, the other murder targets were ... Mike Brown and **Ray Lemme**, investigators with the State Comptroller's Office..."
This proves that Lemme HAD BEEN TARGETED FOR MURDER BEFORE, over different investigation he had been conducting for the state of Florida. So it's definitely not tin-foil-hat material to suppose that he was targeted (more successfully) over this one.
Also, the other time Ray Lemme's name cropped up in a Lexus-Nexus news search was a 1993 incident where Florida Health and Rehabilitative Services Secretary James Towey allegedly made Ray Lemme (then chief of investigations for HRS) make calls seeking to quash an investigation into Medicare fraud. (St. Petersburg Times, October 17, 1994)
What makes this item interesting are that Jeb Bush has been implicated in massive medicare fraud taking place at that time, and Towey has been well-rewarded by the Bush family for running interference: years later, Towey became a top aide to Jeb Bush as Gov, and he is now George Bush's Faith Based Initiative Director.
So now we know that Ray Lemme is linked to another coverup in Floridan that possibly involved Bush corruption, and that he was targeted for murder as the result of a separate investigation he conducted for the state.
Brad, you're da Bomb. Keep up the EXCELLENT and inspiring work.
===========
This story (Curtis/Lemme) has been put in several different places and it's hard to keep up with all the facts and comments, so these just got lost in the pile. Maybe one day we'll get it all sorted out!
COMMENT #292 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/21/2005 @ 10:01 pm PT...
Kira -
You're a wonder. Great sleuthing and great connections. The tidbits all fit together; but the framing of the master criminal is still a pipe dream.
COMMENT #293 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/22/2005 @ 1:05 am PT...
COMMENT #294 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/22/2005 @ 1:19 am PT...
A copy of the letter to Chris Shays went in the mail today to Georgia Attorney General Thurbert Baker. I asked him to investigate the Lemme death.
We're all bloggers, but we're also citizens. In my old-fashioned view of the world, public officials work for us; their salaries are paid via our taxes, thus they are answerable to us. It is on that basis, not because we contribute to Brad's blog, that we may demand another reopened investigation.
I prefer to avoid tying Lemme's death to a grand oil conspiracy, or to any other "big picture" issue, because that makes me sound like a political animal, not a concerned citizen. I don't want to argue politics with those in power, because they don't tell the truth, and it's hard to debate a liar.
But as a citizen, I have a right to know why someone working for an organization that had been under investigation for high-level corruption was able to forestall an inquiry into the death of the very person who was conducting that investigation.
If these identical circumstances had happened in
Haiti or Indonesia, we'd smile and ask, "What do you expect in a banana republic?" And yes, it's now happening here. and we've become like them. But that's a political statement, O.K. off the record or between bloggers, but inappropriate if we're trying to get Ray Lemme's death investigated for the third time by people who owe it to us as citizens.
COMMENT #295 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 3/22/2005 @ 2:46 am PT...
#291
Surely based on the information above it should have been mandatory that Lemmes death be treated as suspious and suicide the last option as a possible cause.
Don't these people have some protection?
P.C. master criminalS
COMMENT #296 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/22/2005 @ 5:53 am PT...
Brad #293 Thanks. Interesting that O'Quinn has substantial enough contacts to also practice in Georgia.
His name has appeared in some of the Florida litigation involving YEI and/or Georgalis and/ or Curtis.
Thus, as an officer of the Georgia courts, he would have contacts with the VPD or higher and the Coroner's office, or higher.
On the post #4 ladder, that puts the top three influence within his grasp.
Some power was exercised to cause the VPD and Coroner's office to conclude, the very next day after finding Lemme's body, that it was a suicide.
And to close the case at the FDOT's request after it was reopened. I think the lawfirm and/or lawyers therein had some influence in these matters. They were certainly aware of the events as they happened.
COMMENT #297 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/22/2005 @ 6:11 am PT...
RLM #295 "I prefer to avoid tying Lemme's death to a grand oil conspiracy ... I don't want to argue politics with those in power".
That is what they want you to think. But the reality is that it is not about politics it is about crime.
It is a crime to link together to lie about WMD, lie about the reason for the Schiavo machinations, and lie about torture.
And to cover up the Lemme matter. Crime, not politics.
This is NOT about politics, it is about crime. It is a pattern of criminal behavior by those listed in the ladder in post #4.
To allow them to frame it as politics as usual is to become complicit in the crime taking place on a grand scale.
There is simply no way to solve the Lemme death without following it up the ladder.
The wrongs that were done did not start nor stop at the VPD and Coroner level of the ladder. To stay at that level is to chase one's tail by "avoiding politics".
But that is not to say those things must be looked at too ... OF COURSE we must also do the Det. Columbo thing ... we simply MUST.
It is just that whether as citizens or bloggers we must not stop there.
COMMENT #298 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/22/2005 @ 7:13 am PT...
If Ray Lemme's death was the result of a crime (I believe it was, and you seem to agree), then how does talking about oil, or WMD, or Terri Schiavo help us solve it?
In my former incarnation as a stockbroker, we were taught there are two ways to analyze the business climate...MACROECONOMICALLY, i.e., via the big picture, or MICROECONIMICALLY, looking at specific facts. Where specific companies were concerned there was a parallel distinction, between "Top down" analysis and "Bottom up."
In the current context "top down" would mean starting with the Bushes and working down to Ray Lemme, and "macroeconomic" would equate to fitting his murder into a predetermined political scenario. Our theories might be 100% right in the end, but trying to sell it that way to people who can make a difference in the short run (Attorneys General, legislators, investigative reporters) won't work, because it will SOUND LIKE POLITICS.
I
COMMENT #299 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/22/2005 @ 7:27 am PT...
RLM #299 To cover up a crime is a crime.
COMMENT #300 [Permalink]
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czaragorn
said on 3/22/2005 @ 9:18 am PT...
Dredd and RLM - I love you guys a ton! Thanks for providing a count-counterpoint we all need. I bet we'll all be friends back in Pepperland. I still think Porfiry Petrovich can help us out - the nervouser we can make those folk, the curiouser they'll get, and, as you know well, the higher the fewer...
COMMENT #301 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/22/2005 @ 9:45 am PT...
I second Czaragorn's comment. Unless ALL angles are explored, we can be ignored. Macro-cum-micro is the only way to fray the nerves of people who think they are insulated from investigation.
Keep up the dialogue!
COMMENT #302 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/22/2005 @ 10:34 am PT...
Czaragorn #301 and Peg C #302 RLM is right that it could harm the effort to "follow the money" (follow who would benefit) if it was done in a wild eyed manner.
But that also holds for the Det. Columbo portion of the matter.
But doing both without getting crazy about it is the way we should, and for the most part are, proceeding.
I think we all know that the investigation was shut down prematurely at the VPD/Coroner level. I think we all know that it was not the investigators in the trenches who orchestrated that shutdown.
That leaves the obvious direction being up the ladder. Starting at Clift in the FDOT, the supervisors at VPD and the Coroners office.
But even they did not do this out of the blue, they got marching orders from higher up.
Ray Lemme would not be dead if it were not for Cliff Curtis. Yes, Cliff started this by blowing the whistle. Like he should have.
And Ray Lemme would not be dead if Cliff had not testified under oath about Tom Feeney. That is up the ladder in direction ... not lateral and only around the Lemme death scene.
No matter if it was a suicide brought on by great stress at what he found, or brought on by a murder at what he found.
Either way something is really, really wrong and all that is wrong needs to see the light of day.
COMMENT #303 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/22/2005 @ 12:16 pm PT...
Something has bothered me:
Brad - you have called Mrs. Li-Woan Yang a "Chinese immigrant", but she is actually (according to the following article) a native of Taiwan. Is that the same as being Chinese?
Kean University Opening Day Address
In 1976, a young woman left her native Taiwan for the United States, leaving behind the comforts and culture of her homeland. She settled in New Jersey and enrolled at Kean University soon afterward. Though she spoke almost little English when she first set foot on campus, she graduated in 1983 – with honors, and today, Lee Yang is the president and CEO of Yang Enterprises, a multimillion dollar high-tech company based just outside of Orlando. A generous benefactor of her alma mater, Lee Yang was awarded an honorary doctorate from Kean at our 2001 Commencement ceremonies, where she told the 2,500 graduates, “I can honestly say that without my degree from Kean, I would not have what I have today.”
###
Also - does anyone know Mrs. Li-Woan Yang's maiden name? OR the name of her brother "the Chinese spy?"
COMMENT #304 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/22/2005 @ 12:37 pm PT...
Good job Kira - because I keep getting Taiwanese (and Vietnamese) connections with Feeney and William Harrison. (Anyone here know how to read Vietnamese?)
Plus, the people the Harrison's represented in the drug paraphernalia case in Hawaii were mostly Taiwanese (Yong C. Tanaka, Seon H. Kim, Yeong E. Chung, Sang M. Chung, 66; Sung K. Medeiros, Edwin Medeiros, Yong Kim, Nan H. B. Chong, Jong Y. Baik, and Byung D. Hwang).
Plus, this pyramid scam asking recipients to send money to #1-#4 below:
This illegal pyramid scam spam was sent from the IP address 63.11.212.25
(1Cust25.tnt1.valdosta.ga.da.uu.net) on Monday, 5 Mar 2001 at 18:39:55 GMT.
It was relayed by Earthlink servers.
The illegal pyramid scam participants this time are:
#1 and sender of this spam. Earthlink / UUNET, please terminate the user. FTC, please have them cooked slowly for perpetrating this Ponzi scheme.
STEVEN JOHNSON, 1807 N. DAKOTA RD BOX 875, VALDOSTA, GA 31605, U.S.A.
#2 Thomas Kim (a...@orgio.net), 16 McKinley Pl., Cherrybrook NSW 2126,
Sydney, Australia
#3 MeiWillie Ltd., William Harrison 745/5 M12 Sila Muang, Khon Kaen,
Thailand 40000
#4 Robert Bennett, 5590 S. 38th Ct., Lake Worth, FL 33463 USA
Not that it's connected mind you.
COMMENT #305 [Permalink]
...
Brad
said on 3/22/2005 @ 12:38 pm PT...
I'm not caught up with all that you guys have posted on this thread and the original Lemme thread, as I'm busy both getting the story out there, and moving it ahead in various ways (more, hopefully, soon on that).
But I've caught up with a few items here, and you're doing good stuff.
Just a quick note to respond to a point that Kira brought up way back up in this thread (Please note, I've moved stuff around on this letterhead so that it would fit here in comments and still be readable):
COMMENT #306 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/22/2005 @ 1:08 pm PT...
This is FUNNY:
Microchip Names (L)
Note: As a public outreach effort, over 1 million names were collected and placed on the STARDUST spacecraft,which will visit Comet Wild 2 in 2004.
YANG CHIH-MAN LEE
YANG HUI LEE
YANG HUI F LEE
YANG W LEE
.
COMMENT #307 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/22/2005 @ 1:10 pm PT...
Uh oh. My little link messed up....
COMMENT #308 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/22/2005 @ 1:12 pm PT...
COMMENT #309 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/22/2005 @ 2:05 pm PT...
In comment #293 Brad posts a list that shows O'Quinn having a practice in Georgia too.
I found a case (link here), which indicates that a Georgia lawfirm Barnhart, O'Quinn & Williams, Michael A. O'Quinn represents police officials in some cases going back to 1994.
Note that he also represents YEI in some of the Lemme investigation matters.
COMMENT #310 [Permalink]
...
Peggy
said on 3/22/2005 @ 3:31 pm PT...
Has Quinn/Feeney firm represented the mob or other criminals? Since the Brit died in a similar manner ( I never believed he committed suicide either), an American connection, i.e., the ladder, is entirely possible. Checking air travel around the time of these crimes is important. Is that what the Hawaiian case was (the mob) (sorry, I'm getting confused)? I think connecting all these characters together on Dredd's ladder is a great idea - do we need a FLOW CHART (include dates)? A picture is worth a thousand words.
COMMENT #311 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/22/2005 @ 4:29 pm PT...
#223 Miss Persistent
Re: "Brudda's Market"
(01) Yong Kim (02) Y. K. B., Inc., doing business as "Brudda's Market"
Attorneys:
(01) William Harrison (02) William Harrison
I think William Harrison is 1 person representing 01/Yong Kim and 02/YKB dba Brudda's Market
(The USA attorney for that case is Michael K. Kawahara)
I believe this William Harrison is this person:
Harrison & Matsuoka - Honolulu, Hawaii
He looks Hawaiian.
COMMENT #312 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/22/2005 @ 6:20 pm PT...
Thanks Kira. Still after Harrison (the right one). He seems exactly the same as Feeney.
COMMENT #313 [Permalink]
...
Bob Bilse
said on 3/22/2005 @ 6:59 pm PT...
What originally drew me to this blog was the Clint Curtis story. It's clear to see that it is the most important issue with the majority of other reader/posters, also. The last two Ray Lemme posts have drawn a tremendous amount of response.
It appears most others here share my feeling that Clint Curtis' story is the "smoking gun".
COMMENT #314 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/22/2005 @ 7:04 pm PT...
Hey Miss P. - I'm still searching through the links, too. There are so many connections.
The name William Harrison seems to be fairly common. I found a father/son attorney pair - I think it was in TX - William E. Harrison & Wm. E. H. Jr.
COMMENT #315 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/22/2005 @ 7:54 pm PT...
the smoking gun ,the box of ammo and the exit wound.
COMMENT #316 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/23/2005 @ 3:00 am PT...
Just a little more on O'Quinn -
Yang attorney Michael O'Quinn called Curtis' assertions "absurd and categorically untrue." He said Curtis is an opportunist and a disgruntled former employee furthering an agenda by telling lies. According to O'Quinn, Curtis tried the same tactic in 2002 when he leveled other charges against Yang and Feeney.
======
He is attorney for Mulvaney (who ran against current Orlando Mayor Democrat Buddy Dyer). They are pressing charges of voter fraud. Hah! Take a look at how many MSM stories there are about THAT.
=====
"The charges are without merit and are totally politically motivated," Dyer said this afternoon, relying on a "vague Florida statue that has never been applied." Dyer, a Democrat, was first elected mayor in 2003. Brad King, the special prosecutor who conducted the investigation, is a Republican.
====
This is interesting ... wonder what those 18 companies are:
Lobbyist joins planning board despite opposition
1/18/99
(Summary) The Orange Co. Commission (Orlando FL) appointed O'Quinn to county's planning & zoning board in spite of county Commissioner's opposition (Homer Hartage) because O'Q lobbies on behalf of 18 companies.
========
He's a new investor with the Arena Football League's Orlando Predators .
=======
His Bio & Picture:
Was with S & H Fabricating and Engineering, Inc., the world's leading designer and fabricator of automotive cooling components.
Frequent travel to China, Canada, Wales, Mexico and other countries on matters of international trade.
Prior to position with S & H, Mr. O'Quinn was an equity partner in Holland & Knight.
Member of Florida and Georgia bars.
=========
Served as County Labor Attorney for Crisp County, GA in 2002.
(Crisp Co. is about halfway between McDonough, GA & Valdosta.)
===========
COMMENT #317 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/23/2005 @ 3:41 am PT...
Everything to suicide for
After Feeney's ascension to Congress, Yang's questionable billing activities with its Florida DOT contract came to the attention of Ray C. Lemme, a seasoned senior investigator with the Florida DOT Inspector General's Office and a combat veteran of the Vietnam War. Lemme had a lot of evidence to suspect that Yang was overbilling the DOT for "millions." After discovering Yang's dirty laundry, Curtis went to work for the DOT. Mavis Georgalis, the DOT's contracting officer for the Yang contract, was also aware of improprieties with the contract. As a result of pressure from the Florida State House, both Curtis and Georgalis were eventually fired by the DOT because of their complaints about the Yang contract. Someone was obviously trying to send Curtis a message when, on August 14, 2002, he discovered that someone poisoned his pet Pomeranian dog, Emily. Lemme was forced to stop his official investigation of Yang for similar reasons. However, he decided to continue an "unofficial" investigation of Yang and its practices on the side. It was a fateful decision.
According to DOT employees familiar with the Yang case, Lemme was aware that it was Jeb Bush who personally shut down his investigation of Yang. Lemme also leaked details concerning his investigation to the Daytona Beach News Journal. The investigator had previously requested a full audit of the Yang contract with the DOT, a request that was denied. Lemme also became aware of something else outside the framework of the DOT contract?that Yang had been involved in producing a prototype vote switching program for use with touch screen voting machines and that Tom Feeney was in on the scam. The last time Clint Curtis spoke to Lemme, he remembers the silver haired investigator excited about where his case was leading. Lemme told Curtis that the cover up of Yang was coming from "as high up as I could imagine" and that he had "proof" that was "shocking."
http://www.smith-family....nnah/archive/000505.html
COMMENT #318 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/23/2005 @ 6:59 am PT...
MMIIXX #318 The link you provided has some interesting allegations:
"As a result of pressure from the Florida State House, both Curtis and Georgalis were eventually fired by the DOT because of their complaints about the Yang contract"
If true, that implicates rung #3 (Feeney) on down to rung #7 (Clift) in the post #4 ladder.
"NASA administrator Sean O'Keefe ... lobbied extensively for Feeney within NASA O'Keefe and his close friend and former Pentagon boss, Vice President Dick Cheney made campaign appearances for Feeney at the Kennedy Space Center"
That fits the pattern of insider influence listed at rung #12 of the post #6 ladder.
COMMENT #319 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/23/2005 @ 7:58 am PT...
MMIIXX #318 There is another interesting factual allegation in the link you provided.
"the Yangs' residence on Merritt Island"
One thing interesting in these allegations is that principals of The Oviedo Voice and YEI both have offices in Feeney's town, both have a residence on Merritt Island (link here), both are very critical of Clint Curtis and any investigations involved with the Ray Lemme death, and both support Feeney.
COMMENT #320 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/23/2005 @ 9:25 am PT...
Kira #314, the William Harrison I'm looking for has the middle initial "G" and is based on this (my post #223):
"William Gerald Harrison, Jr. is an attorney and partner with the firm of Harrison, Rivard, Zimmerman, Bennett in Panama City, Florida. At the time that he became a director of BWRI of Florida, he was also a registered lobbyist for the St. Joe Company and a member of Governor Jeb Bush’s 1998-1999 transition team. He was also a member of President George W. Bush’s transition team in 2000-2001." Which can be found at this link
And Wm G Harrison Jr. was a a part of Insider's investigation in Valdosta:
"A major part of the Insider's investigation was carried out in Lowndes and Echols counties in and around Valdosta, Georgia and stemmed in part from an on-going illegal alien smuggling operation in Bay County, Florida. The Bay County operation was part of our story "License To Steal", in the Fall 2003 print edition of Emerald Coast Insider Magazine, in which we directly linked White House transition team member William Harrison, Jr. to Big Wheel Recycling and Aztec Environmental of Panama City, Florida.
"Our story at the time centered upon apparent influence peddling by Harrison within the U.S. Marshall's Service in Washington and the dumping of toxic waste in Bay county, Florida. We were unaware that smuggling illegal aliens was involved until the FBI, EPA and Homeland Security raided Aztec and Big Wheel's offices in February 2004 at Panama City, Florida, after publication of our story."
COMMENT #321 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/23/2005 @ 12:14 pm PT...
If only one lawyer named Michael A. O'Quinn is involved here, it looks like a strong connection.
If I recall correctly O'Quinn was quoted as saying that Curtis' charges in re the vote-rigging prototype were "categorically false." A strong statement, considering O'Quinn wasn't present when Yang allegedly made the request of Curtis, and further that Feeney is (supposedly) no longer connected with either O'Quinn's law firm or Yang Enterprises.
What is the source of O'Quinn's information?
The case of the Valdosta cop who had his girlfriend murdered using a fake-suicide cover (eerily similar to the Lemme case) happened in 1996, I believe. If O'Quinn was involved with the cop's defense in that case, I think we have another smoking gun here.
COMMENT #322 [Permalink]
...
Peggy
said on 3/23/2005 @ 12:22 pm PT...
Jeb Bush escaped Lemme's net when Lemme worked a case for his previous governmental employer (...Health Services - sorry my memory is not very good). This second time, when Jeb Bush shut down the FDOT's Curtis/Georgalis case, Lemme probably decided enough was enough. Lemme obviously had a lot of personal knowledge about Jeb Bush's "nefarious" activities and friends, based on his many years investigating cases while in government service, which he put to use and uncovered incriminating evidence. No doubt, since FDOT had shut the case down, Lemme would have tried to go higher in the State/Federal government. He unfortunately talked to the wrong people and was double-crossed. They rallied around the Bushites and murdered Lemme to keep him quiet. Can you find Lemme's first case several years ago involving Jeb Bush and ...Health Services?
COMMENT #323 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/23/2005 @ 2:11 pm PT...
Miss P. #321 - Yes, I'm aware of which Harrison we're looking for. In my post #314 I was trying to point out why it is important to make sure the info we gather/post is accurate. There are many people with similar (if not identical) names which might throw investigations off.
By the same token, it's easy to make those mistakes and we do have to help each other by scrutinizing each others' work!!
COMMENT #324 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/23/2005 @ 2:46 pm PT...
This is an interesting report by Insider Magazine, which shows more Republican Octopus Tentacles, one of which is the Harrison/Big Wheel/Aztec deal.
...Their Alabama Big Wheel associates are already serving terms in federal prison for racketeering and money laundering. Federal officials from the IRS, FBI, EPA and Department of Homeland Security raided local Big Wheel offices in Panama City earlier this year and seized business and financial records. See First in Series of Payoffs
The INSIDER has learned that some of the seized financial records, are possibly related to illegal political campaign contributions and protection payoffs to the Bush campaign by Harrison, McElheney, Livingston and their business associates.
-more-
COMMENT #325 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/23/2005 @ 2:57 pm PT...
COMMENT #326 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/23/2005 @ 3:29 pm PT...
**I'm going to try some html code that's new to me - so I might be making a mess here - we'll see...***
This is not a synopsis but a list of Wm Harrison associations/etc.
William G. Harrison, Jr. 4th Generation Resident of Panama City, FL
Florida Bar and U.S. District Court, Northern District of Florida,
Partner in law firm Harrison, Slae, McCloy, Thompson & Harrison, chartered. Civil practice as well as representing clients before local & state governments & their agencies.
Partner of Harrison, Rivard, Zimmerman & Bennett Law Firm, established in 2002
U.S. District Court, Northern District of Florida Judicial Nominating Commission (JNC), Chairman (2000 - present);
Bush-Cheney Presidential Transition Team, 2000;
Bush-Brogan Gubernatorial Transition Team, 1998.
$2,000 contribution - Campaign funds to Katherine Harrison
$500 contribution to Bay Co. Property Appraiser, Republican Rick Barnett
6/4/04 - At Large Alternate to FL Delegates to Republican Convention
Board of Directors - The James Madison Institute (JMI) 2001-2004
The Messenger; March 2001; Changing The Culture of Government Five new directors were elected to three-year terms on The James Madison Institute board at the annual meeting on January 29 (2001.) Included in the group are: William G. Harrison Jr., George W. Gibbs III, Michael R. Hightower, Patrick K. Neal, and Jon B. Rawlson.)
Tom Feeney
In 1994, Tom accepted an invitation to join the Board of Directors of the prestigious James Madison Institute
Later served as director of the James Madison Institute, and in 2002 became the Institute's fifth recipient of the James Madison Award for Public Service.
2003 Lobbyist for: FL Senate Lobbyist Report
Bechtel Infractructure Corp.
Board of Gulf County Commissioners
The St. Joe Co.
Preble & Rish, Inc.
Aztec Environmental, Inc.
Christie Coldewey
Bay Medical Center
2005 Lobbyist for principals:
Bechtel Infrastructure Corporation –
Board of Gulf County Commissioners, Port St Joe, FL 32456
HCA Healthcare
Tallahassee, FL 32308
St. Joe Company, The
FL 32207
Served as District Chair of Florida Federal JNC (Judicial Nominating Committee) 12/15/03 FL Federal JNC Members
A Director of Big Wheel Recycling & Aztec
News Releases
For Immediate Release: June 7, 2004
Contact: Chas Offutt (202) 265-7337
DEP GAVE PANAMA CITY DISPOSAL PERMIT TO SHELL OF COMPANY UNDER INDICTMENT — ompany's Directors Convicted of Fraud in Alabama; Assets Subject to Forfeiture
Washington, DC --- The Florida Department of Environmental Protection (DEP) issued a permit to the Big Wheel Construction & Debris Facility in Bay County even though the company was not registered with the Florida, Department of State. Moreover, the company that owned the property at the time, Big Wheel Recycling, was under indictment for multiple counts of fraud in Alabama, according to documents released today by Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility (PEER). After the company was convicted and its assets subject to forfeiture, DEP allowed the transfer of the permit to a company (Aztec Environmental, Inc.) that has no ownership interest in the site where the disposal facility operates.
The tangled legal web of Big Wheel reached Florida in the form of one powerful attorney and one prominent businessman, both with close ties to the Jeb Bush Administration. For six months following the convictions of directors of Big Wheel in Alabama (January to July 2003), local attorneys William Harrison, Jr. and Randall McElheney were directors of the Florida company, Big Wheel Recycling of Florida. The latter company now owns the property upon which the landfill is operated.
COMMENT #327 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/23/2005 @ 3:33 pm PT...
Oops - did I screw up page width? Sorry if I did. :blush:
My bulleted list didn't show, either - I was trying the html code [ul] and [/ul]. Back to the book...
COMMENT #328 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/23/2005 @ 3:53 pm PT...
In post #326, *note* that after the Tom Feeney entry, the line which begins with "2003 Lobbyist for: FL Senate Lobbyist Report" and there on down is part of the Harrison info, not Feeney.
Sorry for the confusion.
COMMENT #329 [Permalink]
...
vdres
said on 3/23/2005 @ 9:58 pm PT...
I know there's so much new superlative controversy, but this is the way to one hot smoking gun. Don't quit this thread until the next one on this.
COMMENT #330 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/24/2005 @ 2:20 am PT...
I'm missing something in re Attorney Harrison. It's clear he's a Republican insider and also did legal work for a crooked operation in Panama City that did business with Florida while the parent company was under indictment n Alabama. But it's not clear to me how this ties in with Lemme.
Was Lemme investigating Big Wheel as well as Yang Enterprises? Is the link the cell phone record that someone thought showed Lemme talked to someone in Panama City just before he died?
COMMENT #331 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/24/2005 @ 2:32 am PT...
RLM #330
Read this:
From Insider Magazine article on Lemme:
"A major part of the Insider's investigation was carried out in Lowndes and Echols counties in and around Valdosta, Georgia and stemmed in part from an on-going illegal alien smuggling operation in Bay County, Florida. The Bay County operation was part of our story "License To Steal", in the Fall 2003 print edition of Emerald Coast Insider Magazine, in which we directly linked White House transition team member William Harrison, Jr. to Big Wheel Recycling and Aztec Environmental of Panama City, Florida.
Our story at the time centered upon apparent influence peddling by Harrison within the U.S. Marshall's Service in Washington and the dumping of toxic waste in Bay county, Florida. We were unaware that smuggling illegal aliens was involved until the FBI, EPA and Homeland Security raided Aztec and Big Wheel's offices in February 2004 at Panama City, Florida, after publication of our story.
COMMENT #332 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/24/2005 @ 5:54 am PT...
Miss Persistent #321 I think that nails it. They know and have influence on people who can stop an investigation in its tracks.
It had been clear that an investigation lasted only until the next day, in terms of whether or not they had determined competently or adequately, whether or not foul play could be ruled out.
One day was simply not enough time, as shown by among other things, they kept gathering evidence to make it look good and reopened the case much later.
But the big story is the destruction of evidence, which was a big cover up, by the cremation of the body so no autopsy could be performed.
Remember that Kira pointed to a story, in her post #291, original thread, that the FDOT knew about a prior plot to kill Lemme:
"According to the affidavit, the other murder targets were ... Mike Brown and Ray Lemme, investigators with the State Comptroller's Office" (bold and italics added).
So there is no way the investigation as to foul play, required by mentioned in my post #450 and post #486, in the original thread, was according to law as required.
Nor can it be said that closing consideration of foul play possibilities meets the standards, pointed out in my post #156 in the origianl thread, set forth by university professors.
Therefore the re-opening of the case and the continued appearance of gathering evidence is just a sham to cover up the obvious obstruction of justice by destroying the body of Ray Lemme.
COMMENT #333 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/24/2005 @ 6:05 am PT...
Kira #326 Woo Hoo! Do you guys know the James Madison Institute?!!!!
Boy does this tie in to vote fraud! I stumbled across them shortly after Nov 2 and found that basically, they outreach to pastors, etc. to tell them - in legal terms of course - exactly what they CAN and CAN'T say to their flocks, where they can and can't say it, etc. Totally partisan. I posted the information very early on over at Cannonfire - I'll try to go look it up. (As an aside, I was also disturbed to find that people vote in churches. Churches are tax exempt but ALSO except from ADA.)
I've got an article at home that'll blow your mind.
COMMENT #334 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/24/2005 @ 6:23 am PT...
James Bopp, from James Madison Institute (for free speech) writes:
"...Using the above bright line tests, Section 501(c)(3) is not nearly as restrictive as the IRS would have us believe. As the 2004 elections approach, the need for clear guidelines on the permissible political activities of churches and pastors becomes great. This paper provides these guidelines based upon the requirements of the Federal Election Campaign Act, the Internal Revenue Code, the First Amendment, and the United States Supreme Court precedents.
These are guidelines for action recommended to insure that churches and pastors conform with the law, but not necessarily with Internal Revenue Service interpretations of the law. One caution - state laws may be more restrictive than these guidelines and, therefore, in applying them to specific situations, particularly state elections, you should consult your own local counsel..."
link here
Not that this is related to the Lemme case. But because it is a good example of the thinking that goes on over at the "Reichght" (hey, that's a good name isn't it...Reichght...has a certain ring).
COMMENT #335 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/24/2005 @ 7:04 am PT...
#332 Dredd said, "Therefore the re-opening of the case and the continued appearance of gathering evidence is just a sham to cover up the obvious obstruction of justice by destroying the body of Ray Lemme.
Don't give up hope - where there is a will there is a way. And with Kira on board we WILL get there.
So, if Curtis was supposed to develop a "vote control" prototype for the "Reichght" how could it get copied, distributed, and used? Who would be the people involved in that and what levels?
Also, in the Lemme case, just to mention that it seems what all the players have in common is real estate interests.
COMMENT #336 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/24/2005 @ 7:36 am PT...
By the way, when did the story about the weird vote in South Florida get squelched? I remember the excuse was that the people in southern florida are registered Democratic but historically vote Republican? How did that end up being explained?
COMMENT #337 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/24/2005 @ 9:08 am PT...
Dredd #332:
"One day was simply not enough time, as shown by among other things, they kept gathering evidence to make it look good and reopened the case much later."
What Dredd says (in the bold I added) is backed up by my observations in post #219.
This is a very important point Dredd reminds us of.
This wasn't just a case a bad detective work. This is a case of detectives pursuing "safe lines" of inquiry that could only potentially back-up the sucide case with no chance of directly contradicting it.
What does that mean? It means somebody within the VPD (with command authority) knew that a THOROUGH investigation could reveal facts that might lead to a cause of death other than suicide. It also means they knew their case for suicide was questionable, so this attempt to find ONLY evidence that would back up their suicide conclusion.
COMMENT #338 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/24/2005 @ 9:47 am PT...
Floyd. She lied very blatantly. No blood on the towel, photos destroyed, etc. Those are actual lies. As in, kies. These are the lies that perhaps the person leaking the photos would like to see exposed.
Hello any MSM out there concerned about a police investigator lying about evidence?? Is there a law against that. Can we just go ahead and prosecute Floyd. She may plea bargain. Does this not qualify as frightening? What about contacting the ACLU?
COMMENT #339 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/24/2005 @ 9:49 am PT...
By now Georgia Attorney General Baker should have received a copy of my letter to Chris Shays. I hope others have communicated with his office in one way or another; there are now several tangents to the Lemme case which fall under his auspices, and the more pressure we bring to bear on him the better.
COMMENT #340 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/24/2005 @ 9:54 am PT...
Among the multiple charges for Floyd (please feel free to add to the list):
Ethics violations,
Falsification of records,
Neglect of duty.
COMMENT #341 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/24/2005 @ 10:55 am PT...
Fred #337 I reread your post #219 and yes, the follow up was also presumptive as you said.
RLM #339 I hope they will check out why the FDOT did not inform Floyd et. al. about:
1) the prior murder plot against Lemme.
2) that he was investigating serious criminal activity of the type that had previously lead to a murder plot against him.
I am also wondering what political party the Georgia Attorney General belongs to.
I would hope he is an independent, but if he is a good AG, his political affiliation will not matter.
COMMENT #342 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/24/2005 @ 11:00 am PT...
The website of the Georgia Attorney General indicates that Georgia has a policy, and law, which mandates and promotes open government.
This link indicates that requests for records are quite straight forward.
COMMENT #343 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/24/2005 @ 12:32 pm PT...
I wouldn't prejudge Baker. He's African American, was appointed by Zell Miller, and has a website that suggests he welcomes input from the public.
Georgia is the reddest of red states, but Atlanta is the state capitol, it has a large black population, and several activist representatives including Cynthia McKinney. Also Cynthia Tucker, a journalist of the take-no-prisoners sort when aroused, operates out of Atlanta, I believe.
I think Baker could be counted on to act with integrity. But I also think he must be bombarded with letters, e-mails, phone calls, etc. etc.
COMMENT #344 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/24/2005 @ 12:33 pm PT...
Dredd, in my post #74 I provided some info re:Attorney General Baker, Democrat, GA. It's hard to keep up with all the information we've gathered on this thread plus the 1st thread we filled up.
I wish I could find the issue of Insider Magazine (Fall 2003) "License to Steal" where they initially reported on BWRI, Aztec and Bay County operations - plus Wm. Harrison. Anybody found a way to get that issue?
Yes, Miss P. - I had already noticed JMI. They provide their reports designed to sway public opinion, like the Heritage Foundation and like the newly formed ACVR. They usually get their reports submitted before the other, more scientific groups. And I don't care what they say about being "non-partisan", these groups were all founded by Republicans, for Republicans and to help Republicans grab political power by using "double-speak" & spin. All of this started cooking around the 1980s - around the time PNAC was formed.
Here's some info on James Madison Institute:
FACTSHEET: JAMES MADISON INSTITUTE, JMI
DETAILS
2365 Centerville Rd. PO Box 13894 Tallahassee, FL 32317
Phone: 904-386-3131
Fax: 904-386-1807
Founded in 1987, the James Madison Institute is a state level conservative think tank dedicated to "limited government, economic freedom, federalism, traditional values, and individual liberty coupled with individual responsibility" and supports "practical free-market ideas on public policy issues."(JMI website 5/04)
JMI is a member of the State Policy Network JMI is interested in Energy and the Environment, Government and Politics, Healthcare, Property Rights, Taxation and Budget, Law and Judiciary, Political Thought and Traditional Values as issue areas. JMI is particularly active in the area of education, and was a sponsoring organization of Floridians for Educational Choice, an organization promoting school vouchers.
FUNDING
As of 2001, James Madison Institute has received $5,000 from ExxonMobil since 1998.
2001
$5,000 ExxonMobil Foundation
Source: ExxonMobil 2001 Annual Report
=============================
Fred - anything happening with your Lemme Timeline Site?
COMMENT #345 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/24/2005 @ 1:31 pm PT...
Kira, I found a pretty detailed "White Paper" yesterday on the Big Wheel deal, maybe this will help?
link here
COMMENT #346 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/24/2005 @ 1:32 pm PT...
Please think about contacting Harry Jacobs re:Lemme case...
Visit this site, read the article and watch Harry Jacobs' add - listen to Li-Woan Yang...
Local Company Claims Campaign Ad False
Remember, Jacobs is the one who filed suit in the 2000 S*election :
Jacobs Lawsuit
...Similar acts by two Republican activists lie at the heart of a lawsuit by Harry Jacobs, a Democrat and local personal injury lawyer, against Seminole County's supervisor of elections, Sandy Goard.
Jacobs is asking that all 17,000 of the county's absentee ballots be thrown out because Goard allowed the Republicans, working out of her office, to correct 4,700 Republican absentee ballot requests she had already rejected. The two Republicans spent 10 days filling in missing voter-identification numbers, and the ballot requests were then accepted.
The lawsuit is set to go to trial in Nelson's courtroom Wednesday.
Jacobs & Goodman PA, Altamonte Springs, FL
Contact Us
Jacobs & Goodman, P.A., accepts clients and referrals in all areas of personal injury and wrongful death in Florida and throughout the United States.
We would be privileged if you would contact us.
Our Office:
Jacobs & Goodman, PA
890 State Road 434 North
Altamonte Springs, Fl 32714
Phone:
(800) 226-2949 Toll-Free
(407) 788-2949 in Orlando
COMMENT #347 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/24/2005 @ 1:42 pm PT...
Miss P. #345
I have that one saved to file - I thought I had linked to it earlier, perhaps not. I have lots of info/links that I need to get organized - and I keep noticing we can't keep up with previously posted information. *sigh* so we repeat the research.
Brad has several research articles on the Curtis/Lemme case that had some research I repeated before finding his. We need somebody to organize all this stuff into a concise format that's easy to search. (Calling Executive Secretaries --- Help!)
COMMENT #348 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/24/2005 @ 2:08 pm PT...
RLM #339
Did you post a copy of your letter anywhere, or would you like to so others of us might "borrow" from it to compose one of our own? I feel a little challenged in that department right now --- brain drain I guess
If someone could come up with a good "form letter" we could personally edit - one that has the pertinent info and the pertinent questions, etc. then more of us could fire off letters to the appropriate people.
Anybody want to kick-start this little venture?
COMMENT #349 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/24/2005 @ 2:58 pm PT...
OT maybe!
The next day, Manning said, a mysterious man contacted them to arrange a meeting, claiming he had the stolen purse. Manning and Kalustian went to a spot near 6th and Mission as instructed, where they were met by a man who appeared to be a “full-on street bum,” Manning said. After returning the purse, the man pulled Manning to one side, opened his wallet, and flashed what Manning estimated was $5,000 worth of $100 bills. According to Manning, the “bum” winked at him and said, “Look in my eyes. I have the eyes of a former sniper. You thought you had the goods on George Bush, didn’t you? You’ve been sandbagged, boy.”
http://www.independent.com/cover/Cover956.htm
COMMENT #350 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/24/2005 @ 3:06 pm PT...
Dang - people are too trusting. Manning & Kalustian should NEVER have left room key or sensitive films in such a vulnerable place.
Really.
COMMENT #351 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/24/2005 @ 3:27 pm PT...
Kira #344,
Well, I set up the timeline site on a blog, but only to be used as a reference, not for discussion about the actual case. The comments were for suggestions about how to make changes to the time line or format, but it didn't seem to get much input. I still find it useful for the links I put in it that go to specific documents that back up timeline points concerning lemmes death.
I haven't added anything else in a while. If you have any suggestions of what might be useful let me know - I'd be more than happy to make changes/additions that you think would help this investigation.
http://lemmetimeline.blogspot.com
COMMENT #352 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/24/2005 @ 3:33 pm PT...
Kira #350
Yep who woulda thunk?
Uploading all the video evidence before he got back to the USA would have kept it all safe and more importantly still "available".
At leased "they" didn't "suicide" them ,this time.
COMMENT #353 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/24/2005 @ 3:40 pm PT...
Kira #347,
Holy crap. I was just curious and wanted to get a basic idea of how much information we are talking about here. I copied and pasted the first comment section thread (minus Brad's article) that had 765 posts into Microsoft Word. I left the standard formatting of 1.25" L/R margins, 12point font, etc. Guess how many pages it is...
353 pages!
And that doesn't include the already long comment section on this thread. Maybe we should get this published and have Brad share the royalties with us commenters!
COMMENT #354 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/24/2005 @ 3:55 pm PT...
Fred #353
Yup - I also had copied that 1st thread so I could search it because, on the web page my search feature always "blew up."
Some of the comments are just "comments", but there's an awful lot of important research on both threads #1 & #2 --- and all over the place here on Bradblog. I wish someone (or a team) would undertake the task of organizing the important research info into 1 place.
Wonder what we've already got that we FORGOT??!!
COMMENT #355 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/24/2005 @ 4:34 pm PT...
BTW, Where is Snoopy?! Snoopy, yoohoo!?
I'm with you Fred and Kira! It's a tough job to look through everything...
Thanks Kira for your boundless efforts and keen eye - we should probably start sending donations to you!! It may well be I've repeated research - I can never remember the sources! I store mostly pictures in my head.
I tried to synopsize the relevant posts over at the original thread...and then I kinda snapped because it was a lot of information and because of MMIIXX's (I think) list which included something like,
"No finger prints found "fleabag" motel." Still love that!
But, to re-read was extremely helpful.
I especially love the "form letter" idea. There are several fronts we could hammer - including FBI. And I think it's time for a Brad update for that very reason. Is there more evidence that we don't have yet?
COMMENT #356 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/24/2005 @ 4:49 pm PT...
Miss P #355
More evidence?? Good lord, probably a ton. When I started collecting info re: Wm Harrison it wasn't long before I got boggled & bogged down, because 1 association led to another to another to another...
..ad naseum/infinitum. Like the Tom Feeney / William Harrison connection through JMI (and other affiliations.) It's the mass of tentacles that worm their way through most lucrative companies in every state.
I think you mentioned the real estate connection - I had noticed that too. Most of the lawyers involved are educated in real estate law. Good catch.
Thanks for reminding us of the (too funny!!) "no fingerprints found in fleabag motel" :O comment by MMIIXX. Heheheh - yah right!
Brad's really hitting the radio circuit - I've been listening to him today - great job.
COMMENT #357 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/24/2005 @ 4:51 pm PT...
I just posted this at Fred's.
I truly think the receipt stamp on the bill was off by almost exactly 12 hours. List the reference if you've found out "for sure" otherwise. IF we consider the bill off by 12 hours (and the receipt for paying that bill as correct 6/30 at 6.54 7/30) then the facts that fit are:
Maids didn't come 6/30 (Mon) at 11 because he had JUST checked in that morning.
Staff said he'd have to check out early since he came early.
Rigor mortis timeframe puts him dead around 7-8 Monday. The only reason I think VPD didn't lie about this is because the maids and staff story fits with the rigor mortis finding.
The three guys COULD be the assasins because they were seen 6/30 at 7.30 and 8.00. That would mean it took them 30 minutes to get the body dead. They have him write the note for 8.10 just to post-date it to a little bit after they leave (at
. Was his neck broken? For goodness sake the damn VPD.
AND get this: If the PA's already knew that the VPD was "in" then what would they care about being seen a few minutes before the murder and a few minutes after? I think they are still suspects, that's all.
Or at least they may have seen something. Did the VPD check to see who they might have been at the front desk? Of course not.
COMMENT #358 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/24/2005 @ 5:08 pm PT...
Ok, the thing that still bothers me about the date thing is this - copied from Fred's LemmeTimeline site:
Important: Sgt. Eugene Bell of the VPD confuses at least one date in his report. "He claimed to have seen Lemme's vehicle parked in the parking area adjacent room #132 since the previous Sunday afternoon (June 30, 2003) at aproximately 1530 hours." Sunday was June 29th, not June 30th. Since the reference to the date is in parentheses, we must assume that is a annotation made by Bell. We must take "Sunday" as the word of the witness. This verification will be noted as [BELL-ADJ].
So, we have a witness ID-ing Lemme's car in parking lot on the eve of Sunday (if we trust his memory) - and by the same token, do we believe Det. Bell's memory? He goofed - or whoever re-worked/adjusted the reports did.
The ONLY way to know more about this particular double goof is to find out WHERE Lemme was on Sunday evening. The only ones who can tell us have opted out (Lemme's wife and/or brother.) UNLESS the brother could be persuaded to talk to Brad or someone about the case.
This is why I think we should contact Harry Jacobs the wrongful death attorney who has (or at one time did have) a personal interest in nailing Feeney & Yang.
COMMENT #359 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/24/2005 @ 5:11 pm PT...
Oooo - Brad's posted a new update on ACVR!
COMMENT #360 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/24/2005 @ 5:19 pm PT...
Don't have my own website up and running yet, Kira, but I will in a few weeks. In the meantime, if you want to e-mail me at rmills6126@earthlink.net, I'll reply with the letter as an attachment. If you can then post it somehow, be my guest.
Thanks, Bob Mills
COMMENT #361 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/24/2005 @ 5:29 pm PT...
Here are some other stats about the big Lemme comment page with 765 posts:
114 unique names
67 names with only 1 post
47 names with 2 or more posts
Here are the top 20 frequent posters:
Post/Name
92 Curiouser
70 Miss Persistent
49 Robert Lockwood Mills
46 Kira
43 Dredd
36 Peg C
35 Fred
34 mmiixx
27 KestrelBrighteyes
27 Snoopy
21 american woman
21 nunya
20 Winter Patriot
18 Peggy
15 G
12 casolaro
12 cheryl
11 Teresa
10 czaragorn
10 Kryten42
COMMENT #362 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/24/2005 @ 5:31 pm PT...
Thanks RLM - I wonder if we could put it on Fred's LemmeTimeline site ---
Fred --- what do you think? Also is that ok with you RLM? If so, I guess you could post it as a comment??
We could rework it into a sort of generic format & then post that as a working document on Fred's site (if that suits everybody.)
COMMENT #363 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/24/2005 @ 5:42 pm PT...
OK, Wait a minute.
If Lemme had a previous death threat, then Mrs. Lemme had to have known that. HOW could she have the body cremated and allow the case to close so soon!?
(I'm back on the forensic trail as I'm better suited to it.)
COMMENT #364 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/24/2005 @ 5:55 pm PT...
Excellent point Miss P. How in the world (even without prior threats) I keep wondering. I know my family would want to know as much as possible and they would NEVER have let it go as quickly as she did or without autopsy.
Does NOT compute. Is there a fragrance wafting from Denmark?
COMMENT #365 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/24/2005 @ 5:57 pm PT...
This is a discussion about livor mortis/bruising - the dark area on Lemme's neck:
"After about 10-12 hours the lividity becomes "fixed" and repositioning the body, e.g. from the prone to the supine position, will result in a dual pattern of lividity since the primary distribution will not fade completely. Fixation of lividity is a relative, rather than an absolute, phenomenon, but nevertheless, well developed lividity fades very slowly and only incompletely. Fading of the primary pattern of lividity and development of a secondary pattern of lividity will be quicker and more complete if the body is moved within, say, the first six hours after death, than at a later period. (Ref. 6 at p. 82). Even after 24 hours, moving the body will result in a secondary pattern of lividity developing. Duality of the distibution of lividity is important because it shows that the body had been moved after death. However, the timing of this movement of the body is inexact. Polson (Ref. 10 at p. 14) claims "it shows that the body had been moved ... within 8 to 12 hours". Camps (Ref. 6 at p. 82) states more convincingly that "for the hypostasis of have value in this way, the body must have first remained in one position for a length of time, perhaps about 10 hours, sufficient for the lividity to have become well developed and it must then be examined early enough after being moved before much of the hypostasis has become redistributed". The blanching of post mortem lividity by thumb pressure indicates that the lividity is not fully fixed. "
"Most texts agree that lividity attains its maximum intensity at around 12 hours post mortem, but there is some variation in descriptions of when it first appears, and when it is well developed. Adelson (Ref. 12 at p. 168) states that lividity "ordinarily becomes perceptible within 1/2 to 4 hours after death, is well developed within the next 3 or 4 hours, and attains its maximum degree between 8 and 12 hours post mortem". Polson (Ref. 10 at p. 13) states that "it varies in its time of onset, is ordinarily apparent within 1/2 to 2 hours after death, and its complete development is attained in from 6 to 12 hours". Camps (Ref. 6 at p. 81) states that it "first appears about 20-30 minutes after death as dull red patches which deepen, increase in intensity, and coalesce to form, within 6 to 10 hours, an extensive area of reddish-purple colour". Spitz and Fisher (Ref. 14 at p. 17) state that its "formation begins immediately after death, but it may not be perceptible for as much as two hours. It is usually well developed within 4 hours and reaches a maximum beween 8 and 12 hours. ... After 8 to 12 hours lividity becomes "fixed" and will remain where it originally formed". Simpson (Ref. 11 at p. 9) states that "it commences to develop within an hour or so of death, becoming marked in 5 or 6 hours".
link here
COMMENT #366 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/24/2005 @ 5:58 pm PT...
Kira,
That's not a bad idea. One challenge would be the format. Since the "LemmeTimeLine" site I have now is at blogger (.blogspot) it would have to all be on one page.
I have free webspace with my ISP, 10mb worth, that I don't currently use. That would be plenty to organize a main reference page that has links to different "subject areas" of the case. We could get something started and if it needs to be bigger, getting a web hosting service only costs like $4 a month.
For example, some sections could be labeled "Timeline of Suicide"... "Timeline Post-Suicide"... "Political Ladder"... "Lemme's Investigations"... "Kira's Research" ..."Forensic Analysis"
Things like that. It would take some time, but it would be a worthwhile project - I'm not a Webmaster or anything, but I'm up to at least getting a humble website started to give us a feel. And if someone comes along that has excellent web skills they could start up a very fancy page...
Anyway, however, the advantage with the blogspot style page would be that we could have a group of different people that has access to making changes to the site. If we used my ISP page I'd be the sole person with access. If we go with web hosting, we could share administrative access.
I could get to work on one right now to give some ideas of what it could look like. What do you think?
COMMENT #367 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/24/2005 @ 6:07 pm PT...
Ok - I'm a little confused about it all...*grin* as I'm multitasking at the moment. I do like the way you've created sections.
Another thought - is it possible Brad would want to set us up under a heading at Bradblog for this collective venture? We could ask him about it. It might be nice to keep it all under the same umbrella, ya think?
COMMENT #368 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/24/2005 @ 6:08 pm PT...
PLUS, Bob Clift's affidavit starts to put a quotation mark at the "somethings come up" part and he never end quotes. Mrs. Lemme, after the crossed off "had to.." uses the exact same word, "somethings" come up.
Isn't that strange? These people got their story together. I keep coming back to them!
COMMENT #369 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/24/2005 @ 6:08 pm PT...
Miss P #357,
Please clarify because I'm not sure what you mean.
The dates / times on the receipts are as follows, please tell me what you think the times actually were:
6/29 - 6:44 PM? - Reservation OR Check-In?
6/30 - 6:54 AM? - Check-In or Check-Out?
COMMENT #370 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/24/2005 @ 6:11 pm PT...
Kira #367,
I think setting it up under Bradblog is an excellent idea. Makes sense.
Should we make a prototype and see what Brad thinks?
COMMENT #371 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/24/2005 @ 6:23 pm PT...
Fred, here's what I was thinking:
6/30
-------
6.44a Check-in and cash out bill was run and balance shows zero (time stamp says pm on 6/29).
6.54a Credit card receipt charged and printed.
-------
Just a theory, but everything fits that way. I only feel that it's the better scenario because of the maids and staff comments are totally out of wack without it happening this way. Plus, making reservation for an empty fleabag doesn't make sense, nor does him going all the way out on 6/29 just to set the room up make sense.
However, IF Mrs. Lemme and Mr. Clift are lying - then the original time could be true except that the staff and maid actions don't make sense.
So, probably Mrs. and Bob are telling the truth - at least about the time. They have to have alibi's. And the one clock being off by 12hrs (the motel clock not the credit card company clock) seems possible. I know I've never looked at the time stamps on my receipts - maybe I'll pay attention for a little while to see how accurate those things are.
AND, wouldn't the conscientiuos Lemme have paid for 2 days if he knew he'd be a "bit of trouble" to the staff?
COMMENT #372 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/24/2005 @ 6:29 pm PT...
And also, the check-in cash-out happening at the same time indicates he really didn't think he'd be there long. Certainly not 2 days, eh?
COMMENT #373 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/24/2005 @ 6:40 pm PT...
Kira #356. Oh yeah.
Once the connections start rolling over one another (ala boggled and bogged), and you see the nefariousness of some of them it really makes you want to freak out. It's fun to go the line on a hunch though isn't it?
When I started to investigate the information on real suicide I had to take some deep breaths because you have to go inside the head of someone where the place they were may not be so pretty. I don't like that. Same with all these Bush jokers - they are a mass mental mess - it's not a pretty sight.
But someone's got to do it, right?
COMMENT #374 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/24/2005 @ 6:47 pm PT...
Fred - great idea. Are you interested in creating a barebones example to show Brad &/or Winter Patriot?
Miss P. #368
I agree --- "he had to"... oops ... I mean "something's come up." A freudian slip methinks. The other thing I wish we had was the 2nd page of Mr. Clift's affidavit - I guess we should email Mr. Caylor at Insider Mag. to see if he has it ... you know, it drops off in mid-sentence.
Also, last night I ran across this (linked below) in some research re: illegal aliens. It really adds to the impact of Insider Magazine's title for the Lemme Investigation report!!
Unrestricted Warfare by Qiao Liang and Wang Xiangsui __(Beijing: PLA Literature and Arts Publishing House, February 1999)
[FBIS Editor's Note: The following selections are taken from "Unrestricted Warfare," a book published in China in February 1999 which proposes tactics for developing countries, in particular China, to compensate for their military inferiority vis-à-vis the United States during a high-tech war. The selections include the table of contents, preface, afterword, and biographical information about the authors printed on the cover. The book was written by two PLA senior colonels from the younger generation of Chinese military officers and was published by the PLA Literature and Arts Publishing House in Beijing, suggesting that its release was endorsed by at least some elements of the PLA leadership. This impression was reinforced by an interview with Qiao and laudatory review of the book carried by the party youth league's official daily Zhongguo Qingnian Bao on 28 June.
Published prior to the bombing of China's embassy in Belgrade, the book has recently drawn the attention of both the Chinese and Western press for its advocacy of a multitude of means, both military and particularly non-military, to strike at the United States during times of conflict. Hacking into websites, targeting financial institutions, terrorism, using the media, and conducting urban warfare are among the methods proposed. In the Zhongguo Qingnian Bao interview, Qiao was quoted as stating that "the first rule of unrestricted warfare is that there are no rules, with nothing forbidden." Elaborating on this idea, he asserted that strong countries would not use the same approach against weak countries because "strong countries make the rules while rising ones break them and exploit loopholes . . .The United States breaks [UN rules] and makes new ones when these rules don't suit [its purposes], but it has to observe its own rules or the whole world will not trust it." (see FBIS translation of the interview, OW2807114599).
COMMENT #375 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/24/2005 @ 7:06 pm PT...
Kira,
Yes, I'll get started on it tomorrow after work. I'll brainstorm tonight the layout and sections. I've got plenty of data / links to work with.
Email me (it's linked in my name on my posts) if you think you have any ideas. Same goes for everyone else.
Have a good evening all...
COMMENT #376 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/24/2005 @ 7:07 pm PT...
Kira, I thought the last part of Clifts affidavit said, "I left a message on his answering machine At about 7.15." Maybe there is a second page because of the capital A.
But let's say it's a complete sentence and really look at that. He says he tried to call Lemme between 2 and 4, and then he says he left a message at 7.15.
However, Mrs. Lemme said she received a message left at 4 only.
I wonder if Clift left a message at 4 and spoke with her at 7.15. Maybe that's how they got their ducks in a row. Clift seems like he was really nervous - maybe for Lemme - maybe against him. His times don't match up with Mrs. Lemme's.
Unrestricted Warfare. Not a misnomer.
COMMENT #377 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/24/2005 @ 7:10 pm PT...
Miss P. #365
Re: lividity
What's your take? Does the body need to be positioned (unmoved) for X amt. of time in order for the livor mortis to be in one spot?
So - in your opinion - does the "bruising" match with the position of the body in the picture? Would the blood settle where the "bruising" appears on the body?
I'm not educated in this field, but it looks like a lot of settled blood and makes me wonder if his body should have been found lying down on his side for that much livor mortis on the neck & eye.
OR --- he was strangled or struck with an object --- or he fell.
COMMENT #378 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/24/2005 @ 7:14 pm PT...
When "Unrestricted Warfare" is happening within the boundaries of just one country - the U.S. - it reminds me of how a Human Anatomy and Physiology professor described cancer to us back in 83. "When the good cells - for example police officers - all of a sudden turn against you..."
COMMENT #379 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/24/2005 @ 7:28 pm PT...
Miss P., here's how I read Clift's affidavit:
(Notice how everything is ended with good punctuation throughout, except the last few words..)
"Sometime between 2:30 and 4:30, I called his home to see if he was ok. No answer. I left a message on his answering machine. At about 7:15pm
Where's the rest of the sentence? No ending punctuation here & the rest has been carefully punctuated. Is it on the back or another page?
Why is Cecil Bragg's name at the top of Clift's affidavit?
Also --- both the Mrs. and Clift say exactly the same thing (after her near flub)... "Something's come up" AND "he'll call later"
Whatz the chances of that on 2 separate affidavits? Wouldn't one of them phrase it slightly different - maybe add something like "call later and fill you in" or something?
I just don't like it.
COMMENT #380 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/24/2005 @ 7:30 pm PT...
Kira, I had a lot of thoughts on the lividity. (I'm definitely no expert). And I want to research what a broken neck might look like with regard to lividity(I shouldn't really say want to but more like I think I have to).
Also, I need to look at the pictures again, which I alway put off...but...
The previous article said, "repositioning the body, e.g. from the prone to the supine position, will result in a dual pattern of lividity since the primary distribution will not fade completely."
There does seem to be a dual pattern to my untrained eyes. Darker, lighter.
I wonder if we can find an online autopsy expert like the guy who wrote that article and send the photos.
Did you notice a new picture at the Lemme Insider site - a small picture that shows his body from the side of the bruise?? Do they have even more pictures?
COMMENT #381 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/24/2005 @ 7:38 pm PT...
I know what you mean about the similarity!
Cecil Bragg? I don't see it, where?
COMMENT #382 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/24/2005 @ 7:41 pm PT...
Fred # 369
At the risk of sounding redundant---there is no doubt that the 6/29 was a reservation slip and the 6/30 a.m. credit card item is payment for the room, which was to be occupied until the next morning.
If Lemme where the signee for the room and he was in mental pain and somewhere between vacillating and 'decided'--it would be easy for him to take the room for two days or more. Why not?
No need to leave and sneak back!
If someone else where the signee the same would be true, it was just credit card money and he could not take it with him.
The question I asked and remains is this:
Is that Lemme's signature?
There are many bright minds posting here, surely someone would come up with a way of getting a copy of Lemme's signature. It would be on any number of reports he filed.
COMMENT #383 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/24/2005 @ 7:50 pm PT...
I just remembered, a cousin-by-marriage committed suicide, and his very loving mother had a closed-casket. Not a cremation.
COMMENT #384 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/24/2005 @ 8:01 pm PT...
Re: Cecil Bragg (written at top of Clift's affidavit)
===========
Online autopsy/forensic expert --- great idea!! Maybe you can find one & send him/her the links to pix.
=============
Lemme signature --- I haven't seen one other than the motel receipt.
There's a ton of info we could use if any of us could get it. It costs a bundle to get the FOIA docs unless you're a journalist or other professional who would need the docs for work. Private citizens pay through the nose.
==============
Anybody got access to Lexis-Nexis? You can get a lot more info through that program. Mostly available at schools - maybe libraries?
COMMENT #385 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/24/2005 @ 8:02 pm PT...
uh oh - gotta try to fix that...
COMMENT #386 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/24/2005 @ 8:03 pm PT...
Whew --- gotta remember those "end" tags!!
COMMENT #387 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistence
said on 3/24/2005 @ 8:13 pm PT...
Cole #382, why does the "reservation slip" for 6/29 show a zero balance?
COMMENT #388 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/24/2005 @ 8:16 pm PT...
That's strange about Cecil Bragg. I downloaded a photo of the affidavits and it does not appear to be on my 3/12 copy. I have to go back to Insider for a bit anyway...
COMMENT #389 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/24/2005 @ 8:19 pm PT...
Miss P #387
Because there was no purchase.
COMMENT #390 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/24/2005 @ 8:28 pm PT...
Has this already been written about?:
The two receipts have different types of character ZEROs. Receipt #1 has ZEROs with a diagnal slash through them. Receipt #2 has normal ZEROs with no slash. This means the printouts come from 2 different computer systems....which means that there are 2 different clocks....which means it's certainly possible that both clocks were not set to the same time.
Not that I ever doubted the theory MissP.....
COMMENT #391 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/24/2005 @ 8:44 pm PT...
Cole #389 - (This is good dialogue...thanks for sparking this line of discussion.)
But then why would a "reservation receipt" have a data field for "balance" if there is never a "purchase" at reservation times?
Also, why would a "reservation" already calculate TAX1 and TAX2 and show a data field titled "Bankcard" that shows the subtotal being applied to it?
COMMENT #392 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/24/2005 @ 8:44 pm PT...
Every time I go look at those pictures I can't see how it happened smoothly.
OK, on one of the forensic sites (King Tut investigation) I read that it is equally important to look at what is NOT there. Any ideas?
P.S. I am reminded on Insider that Clift insists Ray was depressed and committed suicide while the brother insists the opposite.
COMMENT #393 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/24/2005 @ 8:50 pm PT...
MissP #388 - "Cecil Bragg" is still there on the affidavit.
COMMENT #394 [Permalink]
...
american woman
said on 3/24/2005 @ 8:50 pm PT...
COMMENT #395 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/24/2005 @ 8:51 pm PT...
The short of this is that L. was supposed to have initiated his suicide --at some time after the 29th or the 30th a.m. the next day, first he locked himself in the room, wrote a very calm note and went the rest of the way to his death.
A mixture of spontaneous--like not having a touniquet but improvising a 'belt' and a mixture of planning like having a supply of handy double edge razor blades.
A deed he could have preformed quietly and efficiently and securly in his own home.
I doubt that he would calmly check in at the desk, pay by credit card, sign and trot off to room 132
I doubt that he would be 'forced' to write a suicide note and then take his shoes off, hang up his shirt, put the contents of his pockets carefully on the counter top and then lie down in his pants in the bathtub without some kind of resistance!
What? "Don't resist or we will kill you!"
So I have trouble with both of those and I am more comfortable with the possiblity that he was not resisting because he could not, and someone else signed his name.
The proof is in the credit card signature.
COMMENT #396 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/24/2005 @ 8:58 pm PT...
Thanks Fred you silly
BTW, we're almost at post #400/1,100+ - who's gonna get it?
Dredd got #300/1,000 ding ding ding ding ding (we forgot to honor him!!
COMMENT #397 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/24/2005 @ 9:11 pm PT...
Yay American Woman! That looks like a Lemme signature.
Anybody see differences in the 2?
Miss P. - curious about your copy of affidavit without Bragg's name. Hmmm - maybe a new upload by Insider Mag?
Hmmm - what's left out (King Tut)? I dunno - not familiar enough with the usual data to see something missing.
COMMENT #398 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/24/2005 @ 9:11 pm PT...
Fred #391
If the 'reservation' was by call-in then whatever format the fleabag wanted would suffice.
There was probably little need for a 'reservation'.
Am Woman #391
Now all we need is a hadwriting expert.
I would have liked a full Raymond because to my very amature eye the y in the credit card is loopy and open and looks very different from the many y's in the suicide note.
Other than that I'm not qualified --Good find!
COMMENT #399 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/24/2005 @ 9:23 pm PT...
Cole - I still have trouble with Lemme driving into Georgia to a fleabag motel when he could have stayed closer to home (plenty of fleabags in Tallahassee) and saved his family the long trip to ID the body. This a big RED FLAG for me.
I had also thought about the oddity of using a belt. Picking up something more akin to a rubber tourniquet would not have been difficult. Agreed that this is another RED FLAG.
Why call in to work at all? Why say he would be in late? This is another RED FLAG.
Why carrythe legal pad and empty manilla folder into the room?
Why carry along a supply of heart attack preventative medicine if you plan to commit suicide? RED FLAG
Why call your wife and tell her you'll call her later if you're about to commit suicide? RED FLAG
I should put together a whole list of my RED FLAGS.
COMMENT #400 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/24/2005 @ 9:24 pm PT...
Sorry Am Woman --that should be #394
And should be 'handwriting' expert.
Can some one bring up the credit card signature and the one in the 394 link on the same page, so that they can be compared more easily?
COMMENT #401 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/24/2005 @ 9:25 pm PT...
Very interesting signature comparisons:
Clift Affidavit
Clift Mavis Document
Lemme Receipt
Lemme Mavis Document
I think Ray's are the same looking but I'm absolutely no expert. It's that "e" he does after the "L" that looks uniquely the same in both. It's interesting he signs his full name "Raymond Lemme" on the fleabag receipt but signs R.C. Lemme on the Mavis Document.
But here's a study in contrasts:
Clifts signature on his affidavit is flowing while his signataure on the Mavis document is very brief.
Lemme's signature on the Mavis document definitely looks a little stressed. Crimped or something.
COMMENT #402 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/24/2005 @ 9:28 pm PT...
Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! YAY Cole! 400th Post!!
COMMENT #403 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/24/2005 @ 9:31 pm PT...
Cole #398,
"There was probably little need for a 'reservation'."
So what are you saying, that the points I mentioned indicate the print out is or is not a reservation? Just curious.
AmWoman #391,
That is a good find. It's been there the entire time and none of our eyes caught it!
Signatures
My analysis: possibly not the same person signed.
My reason: The "L" and the "e" are connected in his "real" signature found on the FDOT report. However the "L" and the "e" are disconnected in his credit card signature.
That is something that would never happen with my signature. What about you folks?
COMMENT #404 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/24/2005 @ 9:37 pm PT...
Ding ding ding ding ding!! Congrats Cole!
Cole, how bout if he did check in, the contact came to meet him, they had him write the note, snapped his neck, and then did the scene?
(I right clicked and copied the photos to my PC and then compared the signatures that way. Can you try that?)
Kira et. al., I swear I don't see Bragg I'll try again tomorrow
Didn't see it at Insider so it must have been from here.
Ok kids, you walk into a store, pick up a box of blades and a rubber hose? NOT. It's halfway plausible that he'd pick up the blades and decide beforehand he'd use his belt for the tourniquet. But, I don't believe he picked up the blades either.
COMMENT #405 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/24/2005 @ 9:41 pm PT...
I can't believe I just said that, "snapped his neck," like it was nothing. I'm surely losing it.
COMMENT #406 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/24/2005 @ 9:43 pm PT...
Kira #399
All your RED FlAGS are mine too.
And why would he call his wife on 'his' phone at 6:15 a.m. when she would more readily answer a call on her own phone. And when she got back at 6:45 p.m. she at long last got his message to her by way of his answer phone? How awkward. But why would she go through his message list?
Why did he not leave a message on 'her' work phone?
Did not want to talk to her? Then, as you said Why call?
These are Red Flares!
COMMENT #407 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/24/2005 @ 9:53 pm PT...
Cold #406,
No one called Mary Ann (wife) at 6:15am. What are you talking about?
Robert Clift supposedly called Ray Lemme's home between 2:30-4:00pm to see if he could find Ray. He probably did that because Ray wasn't returning Clift's pages. Lemme was skipping work duties and Clift just was probably a little pissed. I don't believe Clift called Ray's home to try and get a hold of Mary Anne.
COMMENT #408 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/24/2005 @ 9:54 pm PT...
Cole, it was Lemme that called Clift at 6.15a and it was Clift that called Mrs. at 4 (she picked up the message at 6.45.)
Notice how may 6.45's or 44's or 54's there are in this story?
Catch you all on the flip side, nighty night.
COMMENT #409 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/24/2005 @ 9:55 pm PT...
Cold Sorry, I mistyped your name Cole.
COMMENT #410 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/24/2005 @ 10:24 pm PT...
Miss P #408--Fred #407
According to Mary Ann's affidavit Raymond called her and left a message on 'his' home message machine at 6:15 a.m.---she found this at 6:45 p.m. when she got back
Read her affidavit again.
According to Clift's affidavit Raymond called him at 6:20 a.m.--a message which Clift picked up after comming in at 6:30 and seeing the blue light blinking.
Both M.A. and C. stated in their independant affidavits that Lemme age the same reason for the call-'something came up, will be late;. And they both said this was 'very' unlike him etc.
Another Red Flag for Kira--Why would Clift go to Leon County police and make an affidavit on the 30th?
He has an employee who has a fight with his wife, takes the day off and goes fishing--isn't home when wife returns at 6:45 p.m. (on a summer night) big deal.
COMMENT #411 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/24/2005 @ 10:27 pm PT...
sorrry --that should read "gave the same message"
And Cole or Cold--it's ok. I'v been called worse.
COMMENT #412 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/24/2005 @ 10:40 pm PT...
Fred #403
About the reservation---I am of the opinion that the fleabag is not fullly occupied at any time so a 'reservation' would be rare.
But if someone was planning a 'funny' deal they would want an assured room and time (of their choice) at a fleabag (of their choice) and of course No Security camaras. And in Georgia.
About the signature===does not look like the same to me either, but I have bias, so an independant expert would be very helpful.
Because, if Raymond did not sign then the suicide concept should be revisited by the FBI. Pronto.
COMMENT #413 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/24/2005 @ 11:02 pm PT...
Many of the stores I go to have a machine that prints up items purchased by scanning the bar codes and 'another' device that is used to swipe your card and prints out the charge and sends the charge to the credit card co. at the same instance.
Two devices two different print outs.
COMMENT #414 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/24/2005 @ 11:24 pm PT...
Miss P and Fred
Again we have only their independant affidavits as 'proof' that it was Raymond who called them in the a.m.
From a place about 1 1/2 hours or so from the fleabag (as determined by a previous post by another party in this thread) but this could not fit the timeline of L. signing in at the fleabag.
Why? Red Flag---so Clift could say he was in his office --hours away from the fleabag--at 6:30 a.m. when he picked up the message. The call time was verified by the phone company. Very neat.
COMMENT #415 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/25/2005 @ 1:01 am PT...
We gotta write or call Harry Jacobs.
COMMENT #416 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/25/2005 @ 1:15 am PT...
I don't know if this is the same in the States but when I hire something like a U-Haul trailer or a welder ,anything that I don't know how long I'll be using/paying the shop swipes my credit card with a $0.00 balance just to gather my payee information ,like a bond.When I finish the hire we re-swipe and include the payment amount this time !
Maybe he needed/was requested to hold the room until the exchange of information could be done and was told only loose time and day for the meet.
COMMENT #417 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/25/2005 @ 1:27 am PT...
But STILL - he simply couldn't make it to the motel from where he stopped & called his boss by the time stamped on the receipt.
If the check-in was done at abt. 6:44 am on 6/30 (instead of pm on 6/29), he would have only 20-25 minutes to drive the 1 hr. & 10 minutes required from the location of his call-in to Clift. Just couldn't happen.
None of the reports show any consideration for that discrepancy.
COMMENT #418 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/25/2005 @ 1:27 am PT...
who has all the photos
The investigator should have the photographer, if one is available, or, if not that lucky, then the investigator himself should ensure that;
* Overall photos of the scene are taken to show the approach to the area, street signs, street light locations in relation to the actual scene, street addresses and identifying objects at the scene. Pictures should also be taken of every room in the house, even if their relationship to the crime scene is not readily apparent.
* Photograph the scene in a clockwise pattern before altering the body's position or any other evidence within the scene. Photograph the scene from at least 2 opposite corners, but from all four corners is even better. This way, nothing is missed or hidden from view by intervening objects.
* Photograph the body and the immediate vicinity around the body. If you have a camera boom, take pictures from ceiling height down of the victim and any other evidence. This perspective often shows things missed when viewed from ground or eye level.
* Keep a photo log.
http://www.crime-scene-i...archingandexamining.html
COMMENT #419 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/25/2005 @ 2:20 am PT...
Kira #422
If the check-in was done at abt. 6:44 am on 6/30 (instead of pm on 6/29), he would have only 20-25 minutes to drive the 1 hr. & 10 minutes required from the location of his call-in to Clift. Just couldn't happen.
Is it proven that the 6:44 check-in was actually
done by L ,against a photo of L .
COMMENT #420 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/25/2005 @ 2:40 am PT...
was the note pad and manilla folder FDOT issue ,if not did the store the cop checked (for razor) sell the same brands .
COMMENT #421 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/25/2005 @ 3:25 am PT...
Who knows, MMIIXX. Shitty police work.
I never read any comments written by the police that covered your questions. No one mentioned showing a picture of Lemme to the front desk person. What a travesty this whole Faux-Investigation was.
This is why we need someone who can open doors to places with the records and with the ability to gather some of the evidence we ordinary folks can't.
They even quit talking to Brad.
COMMENT #422 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/25/2005 @ 4:40 am PT...
COMMENT #423 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/25/2005 @ 6:22 am PT...
Miss Persistent #363,#368 and Kira #364,#379 In investigative theory, based on the timeworn idea that a spouse is a reasonable suspect at the initial phase, a spouse needs to be cleared by analysis - not by assumption.
The spouse in this case works in an environment that is pervasive also in the environment of the main players who were against Cliff Curtis, Mavis Georgalis, and Ray Lemme. Those are YEI, Feeney, and portions of FDOT.
And, as we have noted, it is unusual that no mention was made by Clift or Lemme's spouse that Lemme had been targeted by a prior murder plot linked to his investigative efforts.
I postulated the theory in the original thread at post #385 that this was a factoid that should be analyzed. Further, under the law of Georgia, the spouse and possibly the FDOT could have demanded an autopsy within 30 days after the death certificate was issued. Evidently they did not object to the finding of suicide which was decided the next day after finding the body.
I also find that unusual and suspect whether the death ends up being suicide or homicide.
COMMENT #424 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/25/2005 @ 7:13 am PT...
Here's a rough draft of a form letter we could send collectively to attorneys general, legislators, investigative reporters, etc.
Dear (respectful title):
On July 1, 2003, the body of Raymond Camillo Lemme was discovered in Room 132 of the Knight's Inn in Valdosta, GA. After a brief investigation the Valdosta Police Department ruled the death a suicide.
At the time of his death Lemme was investigating corruption within the Florida Department of Transportation, his employer. According to an affidavit from a former colleague of Lemme's, Clint Curtis, Lemme told Curtis just before his death that he, Lemme, had found wrongdoing that went "all the way to the top" (of the state government).
After many inconsistencies involving Lemme's timeline and the forensic evidence in the case were discovered by Brad Friedman of bradblog.com and other concerned citizens, the Valdosta P.D. reopened the investigation in December, 2004. Remarkably, however, Chief Childress immediately shut it down again...BASED ON A REQUEST OR DEMAND FROM AN UNNAMED PERSON IN THE FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION!
A man dies under questionable circumstances while about to conclude an investigation into high-level corruption within a state agency. The police chief in whose jurisdiction the death occurred reopens an inquiry into the death after being alerted to facts inconsistent with suicide. Then, after speaking to someone in the decedent's own agency, he changes his mind.
That shouldn't happen. We urgently seek your help.
Respectfully yours,
________________
(we don't mention Feeney, the Yangs, O'Quinn, or anyone we suspect, so as to avoid any appearance of political bias against anyone)
COMMENT #425 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/25/2005 @ 8:35 am PT...
Robert,
Can we mention a little about the VPD's actions - that the photos were said to be destroyed? Can we mention in general that some potentially key evidence was mishandled? These are some point-blank facts that were proven lies. These are the sole pieces of actual factual lies.
COMMENT #426 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/25/2005 @ 8:45 am PT...
Dredd, et. al., early on in the case my mind pictured a box around Clift and Mrs. Lemme.
What would Clift have to gain? Did he have to bargain and give Lemme up to them and help arrange in exchange for his life?
What would Mrs. Lemme have to gain? Saving her own skin too? I'm more loyal than that. I'd have called the police if anyone threatened me in the slightest. I wouldn't keep this information under lock and key.
And here's another observation: (In thinking about things that are missing): If there was agreement that the photos would go missing - which it appears was the case, and the body cremated immediately, then there must be SOME evidence in those photos that puts suicide into question. He probably died of something other than the blade. Yep.
So, who hurried up the cremation decision?
COMMENT #427 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/25/2005 @ 9:08 am PT...
MMIIXX #418,
"The three guys...were seen 6/30 at 7.30 and 8.00."
Not that I'm trying to be a timeline nazi or anything, but the suspicious characters spotted in the parking lot at 7:30am (two guys) and 8:00am (three guys) happened on 7/1, Tuesday.
I do agree that Lemme's cold, stiff body at 1:15pm on Tuesday could NOT have gotten that way in a WARM Georgia motel room (Police noted that the A/C was OFF) within the alleged approx 4 hours after Lemme died. No way.
He had to have died at some time prior several hours prior to that. At least 8 hours.
Question: Why didn't the detectives have a core body temperature measurement done at the crime scene to get an approximate time of death? THAT IS BASIC procedure.
Once again VPD demonstrates their DIRECT INTENT to not pursue facts that could possibly conflict with a "suicide" conclusion.
COMMENT #428 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/25/2005 @ 9:20 am PT...
Hi Fred, and the ME/C said no medications were there. Ha. I read last night that there is such thing as "civil liability" with ME/C's
COMMENT #429 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/25/2005 @ 9:27 am PT...
Just curious (suprised?): How did our DT get the film? Where had it been stored? How did s/he know to go try to develop or download or whatever a few years later. Did the mysterious pictures materialize when the case was temporarily re-opened (or did the pictures cause the case to be temporarily reopened)?
I know there are no answers, only speculation.
COMMENT #430 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/25/2005 @ 10:45 am PT...
For Miss P: I'd elect to omit all forensic details from the letter, for several reasons:
1) We might not be qualified to judge which are the most important, and we'd have to make a choice. The letter should be relatively brief to be effective.
2) The goal of the letter is to encourage an inquiry, which will then examine all relevant facts. It's respectful to sound as if we "trust the system," even though many of us don't.
3) Arguing specifics could sound like criticism of the police. Letter shouldn't be argumentative.
4) Emphasizing the aborted investigation should engender the thought, "Why?" The burden of proof should be on the authorities to explain their odd conduct, not on us to cite facts (as if we were seeking a grand jury indictment).
COMMENT #431 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/25/2005 @ 11:24 am PT...
More on what's not there in the photos:
There were 6 pictures of the body and the inside bathroom area.
There were 10 pictures of the stuff in the room (including a picture of the receipts and 3 focusing on the suicide note);
Where are pictures 11 and 12? 11 and 12 look like they would have been taken inside the bathroom.
COMMENT #432 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/25/2005 @ 11:43 am PT...
Things we'll never know:
Did he leave the house with a briefcase?
Any fingerprints (at all) on suicide note?
Skin under the nails?
No last farewell - no "Good Bye" on the note?
Did he have a full breakfast?
Were directions to the fleabag found on a note?
Lemme's widow not interviewed in detail for report?
Lemme's brothers not interviewed in detail?
Clift not interviewed in detail?
COMMENT #433 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/25/2005 @ 12:18 pm PT...
Cole #406 & Fred #407
Fred's right about no call to Mrs. Lemme at 6:15 a.m. I had to go back to read the affidavit because all along I had thought she got a call too.
Mrs. L.'s affidavit (summary):
(Her statements re: Lemme)
1. Left for work early this morning approximately 5:15 a.m.
2. Told me he loved me and that he WOULD CALL LATER (red flag)
3. He had a meeting at work and I had been unable to contact him.
4. When I got home at approximately 6:45 p.m. there was a message on our phone from his boss, Bob Clift, left at approximately 4 p.m.
5. (Clift was) checking on him since he had not heard from him since he (Lemme) had left a short message on his (Clift's) phone this a.m. at approx. 6:15 a.m. saying that he would be late because he (had to /marked through) said something came up and he would CALL LATER. (red flag)
============
So, actually, Mrs. Lemme's statement is that Clift left all that information on the Lemme home answering machine - that Lemme called at 6:15 & said something came up & that he would be late.
It is a little odd that the boss would jump into action at 4 p.m. --- unless they were pals, or maybe Clift was looking out for Lemme since he had the heart problem. Don't know ... would need to talk with the family.
==============
Ok - Miss P. & all - I'm copying American Woman's work from the 1st thread:
COMMENT #103 [link]
...american woman said on 3/8/2005 @ 10:36pm PT...
Timeline that needs to be explained:
Sun 06/29/03
========
18:44 Reservation receipt for motel room generated.
Mon 06/30/03
========
05:15 Lemme leaves for work.
06:15 Lemme makes call from pay phone at Hwy 19 and Interstate 10..
06:54 Motel credit card receipt with Lemme's signature.
18:45 Lemme checked into hotel.
Tue 07/01/03
========
08:10 Time on suicide note.
11:00 Time Lemme was supposed to check out.
13:06 Lemme found dead.
Lemme could not have signed reciept at 6:54 am on 6/30/03. Why? We know that at 6:15 am he made a phone call from Hwy 19 and Interstate 10. According to Mapquest, this is aprox 1 hour and 15 minutes away from the Motel.
Thanks American Woman!
COMMENT #434 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/25/2005 @ 12:30 pm PT...
Is this really all we need to know to prove he didn't sign that receipt?
I mean - there is no way you can make sense of the recorded time of his phone call and the distance he had to drive to the motel, no matter which day he signed in/out.
Is this the whole KEY? We have 2 affidavits that clearly state the time he called from that location.
Well --- ??
COMMENT #435 [Permalink]
...
Peg C
said on 3/25/2005 @ 12:41 pm PT...
Someone may have noted this already; I haven't read down the entire thread yet. I just wanted to note that, in American Woman #394, the line for Lemme's signature reads "for Raymond Lemme." When I use someone else's gas card to fill their vehicle for them, I sign my own name and then for John Doe.
For what it's worth...
COMMENT #436 [Permalink]
...
american woman
said on 3/25/2005 @ 12:42 pm PT...
Way back at message #292, Kira pointed to a Lexus-Nexus search that yielded:
"Explosives, silencers and hollowed-out ammunition were found in the home of the owner of an investment company and her son, who are charged with plotting to kill a judge who shut down their business, federal agents testified Monday...
"According to the affidavit, the other murder targets were ... Mike Brown and Ray Lemme, investigators with the State Comptroller's Office..."
It looks like a description of the case on this page matches up:
March 23, 1994, Florida: Unsealed federal arrest affidavits charge a mother and son team, Janice Weeks-Katona and Jason Spencer Weeks, with conspiring to kill a federal judge and several other people. The two were involved in a scam called the Premier Benefit Capital Trust, which was shut down in 1993, and also involved Theodore Navolio and Harry Marrero. Weeks-Katona was associated with various right-wing figures and causes, including Emilio Ippolito, Charles Eidson, and the Pilot Connection Society, a notorious tax protest group.
So, more google-fodder. Have at it!
(I thought that perhaps the court case documents might yield something signed by Mr. Lemme. I checked PACER, but alas, the Florida court system doesn't have online versions of the older documents. )
All that said … I agree that best use of our effort is likely spent following Robert Lockwood Mills' advice: letters, letters, and more letters. Thanks for keeping us on track, RLM.
P.S. The targeted Judge was Steven Merryday. Coincidently he has been involved to a small degree in the Schiavo case. (I hope we don't go off on THAT tangent. Sometimes a
coincidence is really just a coincidence.)
COMMENT #437 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/25/2005 @ 12:47 pm PT...
Peg C - THAT is an interesting catch! I've never signed "for" someone before. I had noticed the "for" beside the signature there and was a little curious. Hmmm - wonder if Clift signed his name there...
Gee - let's ask him
COMMENT #438 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/25/2005 @ 12:49 pm PT...
re #357 (fitting number 357)
Rigor mortis timeframe puts him dead around 7-8 Monday. The only reason I think VPD didn't lie about this is because the maids and staff story fits with the rigor mortis finding.
The three guys COULD be the assasins because they were seen 6/30 at 7.30 and 8.00. That would mean it took them 30 minutes to get the body dead. They have him write the note for 8.10 just to post-date it to a little bit after they leave (at
. Was his neck broken? For goodness sake the damn VPD.******two guys were assasins one was the victim ,that might explain the suicide notes timestamp of 8.10am to tell "us" that the guys in the carpark that where seen by witnesses were the "guys" to find.If L thought he was in possible danger at the start of "this contact" ie. meeting in carpark then moving into room 132 he would have noticed other people (witnesses 7.30 to 8.00 am)while outside and realising what was happening once they show their intent and forced him to write the suicide note ,he "accurately" notates the time as the only way he can see to point to his murderers...............
Why carry the legal pad and empty manilla folder into the room?****to write new infomation on and put new photos in ,"ray meet me at knights inn blah blah blah,and i've got photographic proof this time......"*****
remember this from #349
“Look in my eyes. I have the eyes of a former sniper. You thought you had the goods on George Bush, didn’t you? You’ve been sandbagged, boy.”
COMMENT #439 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/25/2005 @ 12:50 pm PT...
RLM - thank you for posting your letter. I'm rushed today - gotta run some errands in my offline life.
Cheers!
COMMENT #440 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/25/2005 @ 12:50 pm PT...
RLM - thank you for posting your letter. I'm rushed today - gotta run some errands in my offline life.
Cheers!
COMMENT #441 [Permalink]
...
american woman
said on 3/25/2005 @ 12:52 pm PT...
Kira, the timeline needs to be explained and backed up with facts by the Valdosta PD, IMO. Per Brad's article, Childress explains the dates thus: "Yeah...There was a question about the dates. We were told the management of the hotel made a mistake. Either there was an error in their machines or some other error."
The problem is (also, per Brad's article) they don't tell us how (or if) they can back up that claim ... or where they even got that in the first place.
As others have pointed out though, regardless of the timelines, he either #1) actually signed the receipt and checked out, or #2) someone checked out for him. If #2, we have a problem. If #1, we also have a problem --- he checked out, and THEN went back into his room and committed suicide? Makes little sense.
COMMENT #442 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/25/2005 @ 4:13 pm PT...
{ed note: Comment deleted at author's request}
COMMENT #443 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/25/2005 @ 4:16 pm PT...
Oops - something happened to my links. They disappeared!
COMMENT #444 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/25/2005 @ 4:21 pm PT...
COMMENT #445 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/25/2005 @ 4:26 pm PT...
Sorry guys - I'm a nitwit right now and don't have time to restructure my bad links. Will do later after dinner.
COMMENT #446 [Permalink]
...
cheryl
said on 3/25/2005 @ 5:38 pm PT...
I can't believe you guys are still going!!!!! Have you solved the case yet?
COMMENT #447 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/25/2005 @ 5:45 pm PT...
Peg C., Kira, I noticed the "for" but that was on the Mavis document and the signature looks remarkably similar. Could this mean someone already knew how to sign his name??? Usually someone doing a "for" will not try to make the signature look so similar. The "m's" are pretty unique and similar in both...
Kira, the letter, excellent. Fix existant to existent. Pictures discovered by Insider - they have a copyright note on their page. Not sure what that entails as far as cites, just thought I'd point it out.
COMMENT #448 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/25/2005 @ 6:09 pm PT...
Kira, Peg C., I missed it the first time but the Author is William Geier. Lemme is signing "for" the Author.
MMIIXX #424, IF the check-in at 6.44a on 6/30 is impossible (given Clifts statement about Lemme's phone message) then it stands to reason that check-out at 6.54a on 6/30 is also impossible.
Fred #432, Being a timeline afficianado is fine with me.
I read that the warmer the environment, the faster rigor mortis could set in. There are several "time of death" factors used, among them:
Body weight: the larger the faster (more surface area);
Ambient temperature: the warmer the faster;
Humidity: the more humid the faster;
Clothing: the more clothes the faster;
Wet Clothing:the more the faster;
Air movement the less the slower;
link here
COMMENT #449 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/25/2005 @ 6:17 pm PT...
Just for fun, take a look at some of Feeney's press releases of the past:
My personal favorite is the Dec. 5 2003 one where he b-noses W after word is out that W hung up on him
Feeney Press Releases
I didn't realize Feeney was so involved in NASA issues...nor such a wimp.
COMMENT #450 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/25/2005 @ 6:57 pm PT...
Along with Pamela Leslie, a guy named Steve Ferst is listed as an "FDOT attorney" in the Mavis document. I can't find him anywhere...not on any FDOT employee list that I can find. Anyone else?
Nor can I find anything on Andrew Bertron, who apparently represented the Yangs.
COMMENT #451 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/25/2005 @ 7:12 pm PT...
Kira/Fred you are right, about the no call to M.A. in the morning of the 30th. (May be that Ding Ding given me Miss P at #404 should be taken literally?).
It was that shift back by 5 min by Mary Ann to 6:15a.m. from the 6:20a.m. stated by Clift that caught me? Sory.
But I did have a feeling that the two of them swore to very similar affidavits given in the evening of 6/30--to enforcement officer, Levinson (?) i.d. #384.
I kind of felt they were sitting side by side and keeping their 'stories' straight as they wrote their affidavits. So why shift the 5 minutes-- an attempt to appear spontaneous and independent?
Why? Lemme was not to be found dead until after noon the next day.
Let me add Kira, that the phone call from Hwy 19 to Clift at 6:20 is open to question also--another red flagger in two ways: the first by the timeline non fit and a second by who actually made that call.
th
COMMENT #452 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/25/2005 @ 7:47 pm PT...
OT but a sign to keep the pressure on "the bad guys"
At the same time, the Federal Elections Commission (FEC) is considering a crackdown on political blogging under the provisions of the McCain-Feingold campaign-finance law. According to Republican FEC member Brad Smith, including the Net under McCain-Feingold “would strike deep into the heart of the Internet and the bloggers who are writing out there today.”
http://www.laweekly.com/...k/05/18/news-ireland.php
COMMENT #453 [Permalink]
...
Peg C
said on 3/25/2005 @ 10:21 pm PT...
Miss P -
I beg to differ - Geier is signing "for" the author, Lemme (or some such). It's syntax.
COMMENT #454 [Permalink]
...
Peg C
said on 3/25/2005 @ 10:27 pm PT...
Miss P -
Notice that BOTH are "Author" slots. Someone signed "for" Lemme. Why?
COMMENT #455 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/25/2005 @ 10:55 pm PT...
I have returned from a great evening out (much needed!) and have edited what I posted (thanks for pointing out errors, Miss P.!). Here is the latest draft. I'm not sure I'm completely satisfied with the 1st paragraph. Any ideas, additions, other ways to spark interest & ingratiate ourselves to our addressee?
Also - please double-check that Lemme's death was ruled suicide on July 1, 2005 (the day he was found.) I think I'm right, but I can't find the info quickly. We should make sure before we send any letters. TIA!!
=========================
Go here for more tips:
Sample Letter and Info
Sample Letter
==========================
Example Heading:
March 25, 2005
The Honorable Joe Brown
Florida State Senate
State Capitol Building Room 123
Tallahassee, FL 32399-1300
Subject: Unresolved inconsistencies in FDOT Investigator’s Suicide Case
Dear Senator Brown,
================================
As a concerned citizen I am writing to urge your support and help in a matter that I believe requires your professional expertise.
On July 1, 2003, the body of Raymond Camillo Lemme, a lead investigator with the Florida Department of Transportation (FDOT) was discovered in Room 132 of the Knight’s Inn in Valdosta, GA. After a brief investigation, the Valdosta Police Department (VPD) ruled the death a suicide on the day the body was discovered.
At the time of his death, Mr. Lemme was investigating corruption within the FDOT. According to a sworn affidavit [1] by Clint Curtis (a former colleague of Raymond Lemme) Mr. Lemme told Curtis, “in June of 2003”, just weeks before Lemme’s death, “that he had tracked the corruption ‘all the way to the top’ and that the story would break in the next few weeks.”
The many inconsistencies in the timeline of events and forensic evidence are documented in police reports, receipts and affidavits, as well as in pictures of the scene (originally reported as being non-existent by the VPD) which have recently been made public [2] and discovered by Brad Friedman [3] and other concerned citizens.
Brad Friedman contacted Chief Childress of the VPD and reported on 3/8/05 [4] that, “despite inconsistencies in the photos and other evidence that would seem to conflict with information in the police report, (he) informed us that (the) case (which) was re-opened last December after our original report, …was closed quickly thereafter. ’We spoke to someone at the Florida Department of Transportation,’ (Childress) explained, ‘and then closed the case again. It was either late ‘04 or early ‘05.’”
Although Chief Childress was initially interested in providing information, after the conversation with someone at FDOT he has refused to make any further comments to inquiries.
These are the facts:
· A man dies under questionable circumstances while about to conclude an investigation into high-level corruption within a state agency.
· The police chief in whose jurisdiction the death occurred reopens an inquiry into the death after being alerted to facts inconsistent with suicide.
· After speaking to someone in the decedent’s own agency, the police chief suddenly shuts down the investigation and refuses further comment.
A growing number of concerned, taxpaying citizens are interested in having this case reopened and properly investigated. I am urgently seeking your help.
Respectfully yours,
=============================
Example Ending:
Sincerely,
(Your name)
(Your address)
(City, State, Zip code)
(Phone number)
Footnote web addresses (in order, 1-4):
Clint Curtis Affidavit
Insider Magazine
Brad Blog
Lemme Case Reopened
COMMENT #456 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/25/2005 @ 11:24 pm PT...
OMG - Where's Dr. Winter Patriot?
Something in my post #442 (where my links disappeared) has reset the margins for our comments - as if some html tag started it and had no stop tag.
After I posted #442, all the wording/etc. below the last line in my comment box were underlining and highlighted as if everything was a link. In my next post #443 I typed in the end anchor code [/a] using instead of brackets, and that fixed THAT problem. But, I see now both L & R margins are reduced. I guess it could be a "center" tag or a "table" tag --- I just don't know. I wonder if some "hidden" code copied from MS Word (I had inserted web addresses as footnotes & copied them into this box.)
Anybody got any ideas?
Oh gee - I'm sorry.
COMMENT #457 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/26/2005 @ 1:17 am PT...
Everybody, re: American Woman #394 signature of Lemme:
It's very confusing, but here's my take:
On the left you have "Author - William Geier"
On the right you have:
Heading - "Review"
"Author - (for) R C Lemme"
"DOI - R Clift"
To me it looks like William Geier is the author of the investigation report and RC Lemme is doing the review and someone signed Lemme's name "for" him. And the signature looks very close to the check-out receipt from the Knight's Inn Motel.
=============
What does DOI stand for?
=============
William Geier was part of the "The Inspector General’s Contract Fraud Investigation Team" along with Lemme, pictured in the FDOT August 2003 issue of "Perspectives on Excellence."
=============
Just noticed on another doc from Insider Mag where Lemme was the author/investigator, he had CFE after his name. I looked that one up. CFE stands for Certified Florida Evaluator, but I still don't know exactly what the job description is. It crops up in conjunction with Land Appraiser on Googles.
COMMENT #458 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/26/2005 @ 1:51 am PT...
Kira, yours is an improvement over mine in the summation ("Here Are the Facts, etc..."). I'd offer a couple of cavils elsewhere, though.
Paragraph #1: We don't know that Senator Brown is an expert in crime-solving. I'd omit "...your professional expertise." Simply ask for his help. I'd also omit "...urge your support." That sounds like a political request,, and we don't want to sound political here. I'd simply say "As a concerned citizen, I believe the following matter deserves your personal attention."
Paragraph #4: I'd change "The many inconsistencies..." to "Inconsistencies..." Sounds less argumentative, less critical of the police.
Paragraph #5 is a bit wordy. My rewrite: "Friedman (he's already been cited, no need to repeat his first name) reported on 3/8/05 that Valdosta Police Chief Childress, having reopened the investigation in December, 2004 to address the newly raised issues, closed it down again shortly thereafter, having spoken to an unidentified person in the Florida Department of Transportation. Since then, Chief Childress and the original detective on the case have not responded to questions."
This blends #5 and #6 into one. Saves space. Otherwise, I think it's a "go."
COMMENT #459 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/26/2005 @ 2:06 am PT...
COMMENT #460 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/26/2005 @ 5:18 am PT...
Miss Persistent #431 I think the benefit at the FDOT level of Clift was to keep the story from going big ... and to do as told. It would keep the peace.
I do not know what if anything would be the benefit of any others.
As to "So, who hurried up the cremation decision?" ... I have not seen any documentation as to how that was decided.
His will? As the Schiavo case shows, the spouse has the say when there are no written instructions.
COMMENT #461 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/26/2005 @ 6:41 am PT...
Georgia doesn't require autopsies in case of questionable deaths. Thus, once the ruling of suicide was made, disposing of Lemme's remains became a routine choice between burial and cremation.
By itself, not suspicious...in the context of this case, possibly so.
COMMENT #462 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 8:57 am PT...
Peg C., #453. At the bottom left, typed out, it says, "Author: William Geier," that's all I'm going from in naming the Author as Geier and Lemme signing "for"Author. Clift signs next to a title of "DOI" (Dept of Investigations?).
Kira, re:
Heading - "Review"
"Author - (for) R C Lemme"
"DOI - R Clift"
It's actually (for) Author rather than Author (for).
Dredd and Robert, So I guess it was Mary Ann's decision to cremate. I've read lots of stories of people worse off (e.g., in airplane crashes), getting a casket. Do reservists get military ceremonies? Probably not.
Observations:
I think the body was shifted and he was cut after he was dead. I think his cut arm was over his stomach and he was laying down full and toward the right. This may be how the livor mortis on the neck sets in. If he did it himself he wouldn't be laying down full and toward the right at any point in the scenario. The direction of the cut would be important. Someone standing over him would cut from wrist toward elbow. If he did it himself it would be cut from elbow to wrist. I'm SURE you could tell - it would be deeper toward the end of the cut. Wonder if that's what's in those "missing" pictures 11 and 12.
COMMENT #463 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 9:00 am PT...
PLUS, the stain on the stomach is much darker and has edges toward the right side and not at all on the left side - indicating blood flowing with gravity - down toward the right.
COMMENT #464 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 9:06 am PT...
Can we at least be assured that gravity was something that was not screwed up in this case?
COMMENT #465 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 9:14 am PT...
They don't call me Miss Persistent for nothin!
Also, can you imagine this:
The blade is placed at an angle that someone cutting him would place it at. The curtain is closed beyond where the blade is laying. If Lemme had closed the curtain after he placed the blade down the curtain would have blood on it. If it had blood on it, Floyd would have take a picture of it.
BTW, I'm all for the letter writing, just let me know where to sign. Don't let my pursuit of the details in how this may have happened lead you to believe that I think the letter(s) are not foremost important.
COMMENT #466 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/26/2005 @ 10:44 am PT...
As soon as we can all agree on the wording, I'll make up a single letter, separately addressed to Attorney General Baker, Rep. Cynthia McKinney, Rep. Robert Wexler, and whomever else we agree should receive it. I'll then attach it to an e-mail to Brad, who can decide how we affix our names to it as signatories.
I agree with you that Lemme didn't die from the cut on his arm, or blood loss. It's generalizing, I know, but if someone is depressed and in pain, as the "suicide note" claims Lemme was, he doesn't prolong the pain by arranging a slow death for himself. He blows his brains out or hangs himself.
And, he doesn't drive 80 miles to another state, pay for a motel room in advance, hang his clothes up neatly, write a love note to his wife (who will have to drive 80 miles to claim his body), and make sure to bolt the door from the inside so nobody can find his corpse. Nonsense.
But I hope we can agree that amateur detectives' talk doesn't belong in the letter. An unbiased investigator can figure it all out, anyway.
COMMENT #467 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 11:25 am PT...
Agreed Robert, the letter and the amateur detective talk are two totally separate entities. Let us not confuse them. I leave that to you all.
I certainly hope that the reaction to the letter is going to be some quick, automatic, thorough, and unbiased investigation.
In the meantime...
COMMENT #468 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 11:27 am PT...
Whoops, I meant I leave the letter to you all (not the confusion)
COMMENT #469 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/26/2005 @ 12:51 pm PT...
Here's the latest LETTER. Thanks for the great edits & suggestions, RLM & everybody!
As it turns out – Childress is Capt. Brian Childress, VPD’s public information officer.
Go over the latest changes & see if there’s anything else we should work on before giving it the go ahead.
==========================
As concerned citizens we are writing you, because we believe the following matter deserves your personal attention..
On July 1, 2003, the body of Raymond Camillo Lemme, a lead investigator with the Florida Department of Transportation (FDOT) was discovered in Room 132 of the Knight’s Inn in Valdosta, GA. After a brief investigation, the Valdosta Police Department (VPD) ruled the death a suicide on the day the body was discovered.
At the time of his death, Mr. Lemme was investigating corruption within the FDOT. According to a sworn affidavit [1] by Clint Curtis (a former colleague of Raymond Lemme) Mr. Lemme told Curtis, “in June of 2003”, just weeks before Lemme’s death, “that he had tracked the corruption ‘all the way to the top’ and that the story would break in the next few weeks.”
Inconsistencies in the timeline of events and forensic evidence are documented in police reports, receipts and affidavits, as well as in pictures of the scene (originally reported as being non-existent by the VPD) which have recently been made public by Insider Magazine [2] and discovered by Brad Friedman [3] and other concerned citizens.
Friedman reported on 3/8/05 [4] that Capt. Brian K. Childress of the VPD said the case was reopened in December 2004 to address the newly raised issues. The investigation was closed down again almost immediately, according to Childress, after the VPD spoke to an unidentified person in the FDOT. Since then, Capt. Childress and the original detective on the case have not responded to questions.
These are the facts:
. A man dies under questionable circumstances while about to conclude an investigation into high-level corruption within a state agency.
. The Officer in charge of the jurisdiction where the death occurred reopens an inquiry into the death after being alerted to facts inconsistent with suicide.
. After speaking to someone in the decedent’s own agency, the VPD suddenly shuts down the investigation and refuses further comment.
A growing number of concerned, taxpaying citizens are interested in having this case reopened and properly investigated. We are urgently seeking your help.
=============================
Question: Would it be more effective to send letters individually or as a group a la petition? If as a group, maybe it would be better to have Brad set up a webpage like other sites do for petitions, where we can enter our info and have it added to the “petition letter.”
We have to make sure to provide the footnoted webpage links – must make some kind of arrangement to do that if we send our letters individually or otherwise. I can send the letter as a Footnoted Word Document to Brad or RLM (& then RLM can send to Brad – however you like) whenever we get everything ready.
Brad needs to get someone to proofread all his articles regarding this case. In one of the first ones he calls Lemme the Inspector General of FDOT, but Lemme was actually a lead investigator working in the Department of the Inspector General. He has many grammatical errors that should be corrected. We want Brad’s work to be the best so he can compete with MSM.
COMMENT #470 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/26/2005 @ 1:12 pm PT...
To Miss P. --- you mentioned looking for what was NOT there --- I was looking through the reports again and noticed Floyd's report where she writes (7-2-03) re:suicide note that she found only a "partial latent print" that was not complete enough to ID.
Did they look for a print on the previous page of the notebook? I know it's possible to NOT leave a print on the note, but also, is it possibly UNLIKELY to not leave at least 1 complete print there?
(This is all the "what's NOT there" I can think of so far...)
COMMENT #471 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/26/2005 @ 1:16 pm PT...
Also - Please Help Here:
Please check to see if my statement that the case was ruled "SUICIDE" on July 1, 2003.
We want our letter to be absolutely accurate.
COMMENT #472 [Permalink]
...
american woman
said on 3/26/2005 @ 1:39 pm PT...
Kira,
The best I can do for you is that the Coroner's signature on the "Coroner's Death Investigation Report" is date July 2, 2003.
The report lists this under "Cause of Death Listed on D/C" (I assume D/C means 'Death Certificate'):
Sharpe (sic) force trauma of the left arm. How occured; incised himself with a razor blade.
I'll search for more...
COMMENT #473 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/26/2005 @ 1:57 pm PT...
Thanks American Woman, I think I'll reword the letter to indicate that at least by the day after Lemme's death the case was ruled "suicide." UNLESS we find proof of my original statement.
COMMENT #474 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 2:54 pm PT...
Kira #470, Cool find! I never hooked up the "partial latent" unidentifiable print as having been found on the suicide note. I think it's a red flag. When they dust for prints don't they dust a decent sized area? One would think.
COMMENT #475 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/26/2005 @ 2:58 pm PT...
Miss P #470 --- Absolutely --- and WHY were there NO f-prints in the fleabag motel? Was it scrubbed by professional assasins?
COMMENT #476 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/26/2005 @ 3:03 pm PT...
COMMENT #477 [Permalink]
...
Peggy
said on 3/26/2005 @ 3:04 pm PT...
Great work, everyone. Only one question - if a lot of public pressure is put on Childress, is a lot of downward pressure going to be put on him to SHUT-UP AND DO NOTHING from those guilty parties ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP. Would it be better if he (or someone honest) would do this quietly. Or should it be shouted from the house-tops. I don't know. Maybe give Childress the first shot, if no action, then start shouting. Leave it to you and Brad. But great work. Thank you for the immense amount of time and effort.
COMMENT #478 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 3:05 pm PT...
CALLING ALL CARS! CALLING ALL CARS!
Looking at the bathroom pictures I've noticed something extremely odd!! If you all don't mind taking a look with me again...
Concerning pictures #14 and #17:
LOOK!!!! There are two little black holes/burns about 4 inches apart (much darker than the blood) pretty evenly spaced relative to the body.
AND, there is an absence of blood almost in a perfect circle immediately surrounding the one on the right especially. The one on the left even looks like there could be a hole in the shirt.
Stun gun? Taser? Render the victim neurologically helpless?
Would gunpowder prevent blood from absorbing in a perfect circle around that mark on the right?!
Wow.
COMMENT #479 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/26/2005 @ 3:24 pm PT...
Peggy #477 --- I agree with you and I also don't know which would be the best way to go. I agree, let's put the decision in Brad's hands.
Miss P - CALLING ALL CARS!!
Oooo. Is there a forensic professional expert we could have look at those pix? Write John Caylor (sp?) at Insider Mag. Ask him if he knows a contact? Oooo...wouldn't that be the smoking stun gun that blows the case wide open?
COMMENT #480 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/26/2005 @ 3:29 pm PT...
Additionally, the photos on Insider Mag's site have been reduced. If we could look at full-size photos it would be clearer on the zoom=in.
COMMENT #481 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 4:04 pm PT...
Kira, I right clicked on one photo and copied it to my hard drive. The one right click will copy the whole set so it only needs to be done once.
I think, if anyone agrees with my take on those two marks, that this would be a Brad deal to pursue? It would be pretty important - far more than I am equipped to deal with.
COMMENT #482 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 4:09 pm PT...
Didn't Floyd try to take prints off the Do Not Disturb sign. Oh, silly me.
COMMENT #483 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/26/2005 @ 4:11 pm PT...
Miss P - I too had copied the whole set, but the photos have been reduced to fit on a page layout. The orig. ones would be megabytes rather than kilobytes. You'd be able to see the hairs on the arm. See how grainy the pix get when you zoom in closer? The only way to really see detail is with the original full-size photo.
We've got a few items to address with Brad - let's start compiling the list.
Also I'm starting to compile a list of people we know need to get a copy of the letter. In addition to those mentioned by RLM:
Janet Reno
Phil Donahue
Harry Jacobs, Esq.
Every Judge in GA & FL
Other suggestions?
COMMENT #484 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/26/2005 @ 4:21 pm PT...
your got better eyes than me!
I till think he looks like he WAS slumped forward with his arm across the front ,then pushed back to position seen in photos
Where are ALL the crime scene photos ,the recommended way to document a crime scene is to stand in the middle of the room and take pictures that overlap by turning in a clockwise direction after each shot.
http://www.crime-scene-i...archingandexamining.html
COMMENT #485 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 4:34 pm PT...
Another bunch of Schmoking Guns, look at photo #9.
This is the positioning of objects:
Tie (left)
Keys (left)
Meds (left)
Glass case (left)
Comb (left)
$ Clip (left)
Glasses (center) (that's the reference point)
Watch (right side)***
Razor blade (lefty angle)
Pen (lefty angle)
Just imagine yourself taking these things off if you were left handed and then think about it if you were right handed.
*** Lemme has a righty signature. If Lemme was righty his watch would have been placed on the left hand side. Cut was (correctly done) on left to show he was righty - but, blade is placed lefty.
BTW, our friend Clift has a lefty signature....
COMMENT #486 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 4:40 pm PT...
Kira, invert the photos (black-white, white=black)
COMMENT #487 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/26/2005 @ 4:44 pm PT...
I cannot in my wildest dreams imagine Mr. Clift as the assassin. But, who knows? Insider Mag points a finger thataway.
COMMENT #488 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/26/2005 @ 4:45 pm PT...
What effect are you looking for in the inverted photos?
COMMENT #489 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/26/2005 @ 4:48 pm PT...
Also, good point about positioning of the objects, especially the pen, watch & ESPECIALLY the blade --- it would have been laid down AFTER the cut was made. I would think the left arm would be out of commission for doing any work AFTER the cut.
COMMENT #490 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 4:59 pm PT...
Kira, just contrast.
Those two very dark (or very light) holes/burns are sooo concise and intense compared to most of the rest of the scene. On #14 you can see the biggest hole/burn nearer his right arm, and on #17 you can see the ring around the hole/burn nearest his left arm. If it weren't for the bloodless ring around the one of them I suppose it could be random. But that does not appear to be the case.
I know they are fuzzy when enlarged but that's all we have.
I think the blade was held with the CLOTH.
COMMENT #491 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 5:12 pm PT...
Yep. When you look at the photo of the cloth inverted it's looks like it's pinched together more on one side. The way it's laid down on the ledge looks like a lefty too (looser to the left, tighter to the right).
COMMENT #492 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 5:25 pm PT...
Kira, if you do "Solarize" (with Image Expert) you see even other elements - wetness.
COMMENT #493 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 5:34 pm PT...
See now, with the photo editor, I've just seen that the marks, above and to the left of the cloth, just up on the shower wall and on that edge are in a downward line and look like falling swoosh blood marks from the cloth landing...from above and to the left down and toward the right.
COMMENT #494 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 5:55 pm PT...
...Lefty drops the blade onto the ledge, throws the cloth against the back wall in a light but sweeping side arm motion, grabs the top of the curtain and yanks the curtain halfway closed... in a good-riddance gesture. He is saying to himself, Finally...
If Lemme used the cloth to hold the blade - which would make sense only for the killer because it was double-edged (what would Lemme care?), he'd have place the blade on the tub edge with a little more "imperviousness," some blood from the cloth would probably be near the blade on the tub edge. No blood near the blade. If someone else were doing it, they certainly would not want to cut themselves and they could drop the blade from the cloth and leave no blood on the ledge near the blade.
COMMENT #495 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/26/2005 @ 6:02 pm PT...
one thing ODD about the blood strains in photo 14,15,16 and 10(towel) is that most the patterns are "runs" as if the blood was "dribbled" on to the surfaces .
Do you thing this looks "natural" to you guys?
COMMENT #496 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 6:40 pm PT...
Hey MMIIXX,
The drips are odd. Especially the one you mention on the towel. Does look dribbled doesn't it? A quick dribble but a dribble nonetheless.
I was looking at the cloth to see if the drips could have been made using it and then maybe rinsed a little. AHA. That's it. Some drips are not straight down but as if water was on the walls and lower ledge kinda making some go astray.
Man! We are well on our way here aren't we!
COMMENT #497 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/26/2005 @ 6:43 pm PT...
Here's a website that has a bunch of contacts just right for our letter:
Progressive Caucus
COMMENT #498 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 6:55 pm PT...
Oh yea. We got ourselves a lefty killer. This was no suicide.
MMIIXX, the blood drip on the towel also goes thicker and in a straight line in the beginning (clockwise from our view) and thinner toward the end.
And yeeeeeehaaaaaw! Looks like the belt was put down after the blood drips!!!!!!!!! Anyone else see that with solarize, color, etc.
Hey, the toilet seat is up.
COMMENT #499 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 7:04 pm PT...
Hey, and that belt there - if it were around your waist (or arm) you'd be guess what?...a lefty!
Just tried the whole deal myself (a righty) it ends up exactly opposite.
COMMENT #500 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 7:06 pm PT...
Anyone check the toilet seat for prints? Oh, silly me.
COMMENT #501 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/26/2005 @ 7:08 pm PT...
Yes, those 2 dots on his shirt are peculiar. If it was a taser, would that explain the circle around the right dot? Heat?
See for yourself.
I converted to grayscale, adjusted the levels, and inverted. Those dots wouldn't be so strange if it wasn't for the lack of blood around the second dot.
COMMENT #502 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 7:14 pm PT...
Ding ding ding ding ding!!!
Glasses on:
Glasses off: :blush:
So no wonder the pictures were "ruined." :plain:
COMMENT #503 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 7:17 pm PT...
Why didn't my smilies turn out...?
You got it Fred! Total bloodless ring around the second dot.
COMMENT #504 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 7:29 pm PT...
I take it back (sorry, sorry), blood does look like it's on the belt. Dripped onto it afterward because it follows the same track as the circular blood pattern. Weird.
Fred, it looks like no blood in a perfect circle but does have that gray grimey color. Something somewhat repellant penetrated the shirt in that perfect circle that didn't allow blood to absorb after the fact?
COMMENT #505 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 3/26/2005 @ 7:47 pm PT...
"Fred, it looks like no blood in a perfect circle but does have that gray grimey color. Something somewhat repellant penetrated the shirt in that perfect circle that didn't allow blood to absorb after the fact?"
If t-shirt was polymer based it would "melt" to a degree,this would change the absorbency of the material.
We need the original pictures with full resolution you could zoom in better,police cameras of the time should have at least 3meg per picture, if not more.
COMMENT #506 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 7:51 pm PT...
Fred, the blood on the belt. Does it look like the blood is on this side of the belt (as in the Mr. Lefty squeezing blood on the towel counterclockwise??
AND, that doesn't have to be Lemme's blood does it? Our only sure truth here is gravity and physics.
COMMENT #507 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/26/2005 @ 7:53 pm PT...
My thought has always been, if Lemme was given the choice of either commiting suicide or having his wife & daughter killed (after they kill him), then Lemme would obviously have chosen suicide.
But Lemme is an investigator - if while placing his personal items on the counter, with his back to the assassin, he tries to sneak in some secret/subtle clues in the placement of those objects. It's his only chance the detectives or someone else might see these down the road and get suspicious of his suicide. But they must remain subtle enough that the assassin doesn't catch it and disrupt the message. After all, he can't write a note that says "P.S. They made me kill myself!!!".
Why would Lemme place the comb ON TOP of the money clip? Is that a signal - does that mean something? Certainly seems an odd placement.
The stem of the watch looks like it is pointing to the left, which means the watch is spun around facing the mirror. Why would he do that?
The watch was stopped at 12:34 6/30. What could that possibly have meant?
The washcloth next to Lemme in the tub came from the counter top in that straw basket. The remaining wash cloth has a paper-wrapped soap on top of it. The wrapped-soap that was on the washcloth he used is next to the sink, unused. Why wouldn't he place it back in the basket to continue the theme of "squaring away" the counter top?
The shoes also, their placement location seems out of the theme of things being in their proper place (pen neatly placed on pad). Legal pad of paper neatly squared away on top of manilla envelope. He even bothered to place a friggin bath towel on the floor next the tub.
COMMENT #508 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 7:54 pm PT...
VERY cool knowledge MMIIXX. No one can refute this gem of evidence.
But, can anyone tell me how to do my smilies?
COMMENT #509 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/26/2005 @ 7:55 pm PT...
Y'all are definitely the Quincy's on the board! Your doing great work. Wish we could get the higher res pix. Maybe contacting John Caylor at Insider Mag. would do the trick?
COMMENT #510 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 8:05 pm PT...
Kira, this recent observation is original Brad Blog material (not noticed on Insider). YO Brad. Can we get some originals down here?
I KNEW there were some reasons for "suiciding" the pictures! Thank goodness for the DT ! I'm sure any expert would've noticed that right off the bat - maybe DT!
COMMENT #511 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/26/2005 @ 8:10 pm PT...
Pardon my ignorance - what does DT stand for?
Yup - there have been several original Brad Blog observations that seem correct.
BTW - where ARE Brad & Winter Patriot? Did they forget about us over here?
AND - my smilies don't work anywhere on Brad Blog, either. I was about to post one with this remark (I copied it and then clicked "preview" because if I preview & click the "back" button my post vanishes) and you see my smilie is just text, too:
Ooo - I must be getting tired again. My speling and grammaticables are atroshus. :hehe:
COMMENT #512 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/26/2005 @ 8:12 pm PT...
Being that the comb is stacked on top of the money, could that be his clever message: "Go over this room with a find comb for clues. That's how you'll strike paydirt."
The watch is placed next to the receipts. The watches orientation (spun around facing the mirror) and that time is stopped.:
"The time is all wrong on these receipts. I never could have been here at those times."
I don't know, maybe I've been watching NBC's "Medium" too much lately. But I think there is something to these ideas. Granted, it would never stand up in court, but then again, neither would the shoddy, inconsistent detective work done by VPD.
COMMENT #513 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/26/2005 @ 8:22 pm PT...
Wow! This thread has lengthened by thirty posts since I last left it, not toolong ago.. You guys are either dogged or obsessed!!
Anyway, before I say good night (I think), I want to mention something that has bothered me all along about this case. WHY, since Lemme had a cell phone and used it, did he stop to make a call from a PAY PHONE? Makes no sense. Unless someone who was already with him (an en route rendevous?) told him to do it.
Please carry on. I just wanted to mention this since, to my knowledge. no one else has.
COMMENT #514 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/26/2005 @ 8:35 pm PT...
Way peculiar, Peg C. I didn't know he did have a cell phone (it was a topic of discussion on the 1st thread we blew out - hehe). Where is that documented?
Thanks!
And, YES, we are dogged, obsessed and PERSISTENT.
COMMENT #515 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 8:36 pm PT...
Kira #487, I know!! I couldn't imagine Clift as the PA either.
But if things are truly this sloppy then ya gotta wonder how professional the hit was.
Clift insisted suicide (whereas at that time he should have been in denial like everyone does in a sudden death (i.e., "I can't believe it, no way!")). Yet he wasn't.
Well, I'm not blaming Clift per se, but I think his signature is Lefty, almost everything in the room is laid out Lefty, the freaking belt is Lefty, and you know his time line is total crap - especially with the phone call from Lemme from the Pay Fast Loan which wasn't even open (or was it? I never did understand that phone mix up) and, a phone call that we don't even truly know if it happened at all except for Clift having said so and telling Mary Ann so, and not to mention that Lemme couldn't even have checked in or out by that time if he HAD called from the Loan place, and somehow getting in on the "write an affidavit as soon as you can" deal, No. Too much. Clift has hung us up all the freaking way.
COMMENT #516 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/26/2005 @ 8:39 pm PT...
MissP #506,
To me, I hate to say, it looks like the pattern could be explained by Lemme reaching out with his left arm to drop the belt.
Look at this picture
I see 2 patterns on this towel.
Imagine his left arm swinging out from the tub, horizontal, with the belt in his left hand. Now his cuts are near the elbow or upper forearm. That is where you get the dense pattern of blood. The belt/hand have some blood dripping off, but in a lighter pattern further out from where the elbow would be.
This pattern of light blood near hand/belt and heavier blood near elbow is repeated on the outside of that bathtub.
But all this doesn't disprove he did this under duress.
COMMENT #517 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/26/2005 @ 8:41 pm PT...
Oh, and Kira and Miss P -
To use one of Brad's smilies, right-click on it, choose "Properties," then "copy" the URL. In your message, where you wish to insert the little guy, type [img src="URL" width="20" height="20"] Use instead of [].
COMMENT #518 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/26/2005 @ 8:49 pm PT...
I agree with you Miss. P. Why would family or close relations jump to "suicide" as a first answer unless the person had talked about it before.
The Lefty thing is pretty convincing. Look for a lefty.
The phone call (from Fast Track) was supposedly tracked (request by Clift) by the phone company and recorded somewhere in the reports. Peg C. mentioned Lemme had a cell phone. Makes absolutely no sense to use a pay phone *unless* the stop was for gas & coffee & using a pay phone would save cell phone minutes.
Did anyone ever call the right number after the mix-up (somebody called, but got one of the last 4 digits mixed up)?
All the things you brought up are RED FLAGS.
COMMENT #519 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 8:51 pm PT...
Peg C, #513 didn't see your message as I was busy composing my Clift rant. But I totally agree with the discomfort you feel about the cell and why would he call from a payphone if he had a cell. Even if he didn't have a cell, he couldn't have made it to the fleabag in time. Clift either wanted to place him there, then, at that time, or he wanted to place himself at his own office - FAR more likely. Well, Clift has some trouble with time.
Persistent I am (sounds better than Miss Obsessive
Truly, I just can't handle unanswered truths - I've always been that way and it doesn't even matter the topic! I could change my moniker to Miss Too Analytical (I've had more than one date say "you're too damn analytical." I say, oh well.)
COMMENT #520 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/26/2005 @ 8:55 pm PT...
I believe somewhere, very early on in the first Lemme thread, it was mentioned that there had been a cell phone in the vehicle which should have been impounded and researched in the "investigation," but hadn't been. My attention to this matter is sporadic, since I'm not an avid Agatha Christie sort, but perhaps that is an advantage. Forests and trees, you know. Anyway, check it out. A state agent could be presumed to have a state-issued cell-phone, in any case. And that "cell-phone in car" echo rings in my cranium.
COMMENT #521 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 9:03 pm PT...
Thanks Peg C for the smilies info - I knew you'd come to the rescue!
Redo of me at #500 (maybe I should be Miss Obnoxious
Ding ding ding ding ding!!!
Glasses on:
Glasses off:
Wax on wax off...
COMMENT #522 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/26/2005 @ 9:07 pm PT...
2 major points just popped into my head:
1) Since we have shown that the receipts have 2 different types of "zeros" (slash thru one, other has no slash) that means there were 2, count that, TWO different computers, which means there were 2, count that again, TWO different clocks reflected on those receipts. Now how on Earth could BOTH clocks be set to the wrong dates and times? The answer is they couldn't. So that just backs up our already strong theory that he was at the hotel early Monday.
Which means Lemme could NOT have placed that call from the location they said he did and make it to the motel in time.
2) The blood patterns on the towel. If Lemme took off the belt and swung his arm out to drop it on the towel, that means he had plenty of BLOOD PRESSURE to remain conscious. But if he had sliced his artery as the VPD/Coroner said, then there would have been blood SPRAYING, not only dropping with that kind of blood pressure. Yet there is no evidence of that happening here. So something else had to of occured in this bathroom.
COMMENT #523 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/26/2005 @ 9:09 pm PT...
Yay, Miss P!!! By (gulp) George (shudder), she's got it!
COMMENT #524 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/26/2005 @ 9:15 pm PT...
Just for the record, the pictures are labeled with a prefix of "DSCF". "Detective Shannon C. Floyd". It's her camera. She must have used it before this crime scene.
If you took pictures in your job with a camera that is assigned to YOU (DSCF), and had trouble with extracting the photos from the cards, would you just say "Oh well, bad luck!"? No. You would take them to a photo lab and have a professional look at them. Go down to Costco or something. Afterall, the cards did work. So why did it take 2 years before someone finally released them to the press?
"Shannon, step into my office. YOU'RE FUCKING FIRED!!!."
COMMENT #525 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/26/2005 @ 9:19 pm PT...
#516
Fred wrote:
"To me, I hate to say, it looks like the pattern could be explained by Lemme reaching out with his left arm to drop the belt."
If the vein was through spraying, would there be enough blood in the arm to be able to drop the belt?
ALSO - and this is a good point I think - The belt is on the left arm, so you remove it with the right hand. Then you put the belt in the (by now) nonfunctional left hand. Do you have to also grab the left arm and help up & over the side of the tub to drop the belt on the mat.
You know what it's like to wake up with your arm so "asleep" because you've cut the circulation to it somehow and you have to actually pick it up with the other hand and manually move it? That's what it would be like in this case.
COMMENT #526 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/26/2005 @ 9:21 pm PT...
Amen, Fred. Or... "You're f*** fired if you DON'T make the pictures go away."
COMMENT #527 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 9:21 pm PT...
Fred #516, good editing.
Ignoring the blood for just a second,
If Lemme had done it he would have taken the belt off with his Right hand rather than his recently sliced Left. And tossed the belt out with his Right hand. But either way, the belt lands in a lefty position. Try it yourself in your most comfortable way. I won't say anything til you've tried it so I don't bias you. See how you put it on and how the belt lands when you toss it freely.
Ok, now the blood. There really are many ways to see it, I agree. The thickest blood appears to be nearest the belt, and, as a matter of fact, on our side of the belt. Look at how far that thickest area of blood is from the tub. Subtract what, 5 inches for the width of the tub, he'd reeeaally have to be reaching - the thickest blood is at least 8 inches from the tub. And if he were straining to lean - how would we get the free-flowing circular pattern?
COMMENT #528 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 9:27 pm PT...
Peg C, #523, I promise not to become obsessed with emoticons - you see, it's no longer an unknown
COMMENT #529 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/26/2005 @ 9:34 pm PT...
Why would he remove the belt anyway, if he was dying? Huh? I'm just a total nebbish here, but...I'm ALSO a Maineiac!!!!
Please explain why a suicidal man would remove his tourniquet, partially close his shower curtain, mop up with a washcloth, and lay his razor blade neatly on his death-tub's edge.
COMMENT #530 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/26/2005 @ 9:43 pm PT...
Yes, Miss P -
I know the syndrome. Dammit, HOW DO THEY DO THAT?
Once you know, it's very ho-hum. Sorry to remove the mystery...
COMMENT #531 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/26/2005 @ 9:43 pm PT...
Haw! I love yer moose!
I'm with your assessment too, Peg C. None of that makes sense - along with bringing in the medicine for preventing heart attack. Great Coroner/ME - among many other things he should have checked, he didn't bother to see if Lemme had taken some of his meds. If he had ... well ... why would a suicidal man bother with that, either?
COMMENT #532 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 9:44 pm PT...
Fred #516 photo, see the belt in a circle? Pretend the belt is a clock. Right about 8 o'clock is a line - looks like that part of the belt landed there and hopped and inch. It looks like it flopped from left to right?
Hey guys, didn't someone say there was some blood spattered on the bathroom door (Peg C was that you?).
COMMENT #533 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/26/2005 @ 9:49 pm PT...
I remember reading in the reports about blood spattered on the door (which was opened against the East wall) and some on the ceiling. According to the report, it wasn't much. I always thought that was peculiar. You'd think there would have been more all over (as described by police investigators in another article about a questionable suicide, it should have looked like a slaughterhouse.)
COMMENT #534 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 9:51 pm PT...
Love the Moose Peg C. Ok, now I'll have to investigate how to get unique emoticons. I adored the gears you had earlier.
Yeah, why even toss the belt out onto the towel - to preserve it for the Mrs.? Besides, thats the same towel that our Ms. Floyd said had no blood on it. What pictures? What towel? What fingerprints? What crime?
COMMENT #535 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 9:56 pm PT...
Blood on the ceiling and door don't even make SENSE. Nope, made up by Shannon - she's proven she's pretty good at that.
So, Shannon and Robert sitting in a tree...
COMMENT #536 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/26/2005 @ 9:59 pm PT...
Kira et al -
"Medicine to prevent heart attack" is a misnomer. People who have had stent implants have coronary ARTERY disease, take cholesterol blockers, and are generally committed to improving the limited lives they have been leading because of poor cardiac output. A stent implant is a pro-life measure; it is not a liability and it corrects the life-threatening condition faultlessly.
Lemme would have been taking Zocor or some such, NOT a "heart attack medicine." Anyone taking anti-cholesterol stuff is thinking "future," not "death."
COMMENT #537 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/26/2005 @ 10:01 pm PT...
COMMENT #538 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/26/2005 @ 10:11 pm PT...
Going back to get info already posted:
From page 2, Narrative Report by Shannon Floyd dated 7/24/03:
"Small areas of blood appearing to be arterial spurts were present on the exterior side of the bathroom door, which was pushed back to the east wall, and on the east wall adjacent to the bathtub. The location of the arterial spurts was *consistent with the deceased being in a SITTING position when the cuts were made*"
==================
And regarding the heart attack medicine:
COMMENT #620 [link]
...KIRA said on 3/14/2005 @ 12:54pm PT...
The 2 medications found, according to Shannon Floyd's narrative report 7/24/03:
1. Ecotrin - "The Safer Aspirin"
2. Pravachol - Same as Prevastatin - to reduce the risk of heart attack
COMMENT #539 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 10:20 pm PT...
Fred, quite a contrast eh? And for goodness sakes. I live in the area where "The Sniper" did his thing (ever hear that sordid story)? They sent the freaking stuff to ATF. How the heck is Ms. Floyd going to all of a sudden be a ballistics expert? What a little shop of horrors!
COMMENT #540 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 10:25 pm PT...
OK, in order for blood to be on the ceiling and door, the guy had to have flipped the belt off Lemme pretty wildly. How rude. Now it makes more sense. As long as I don't picture Lemme doing these things it makes sense. Not Lemme.
COMMENT #541 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 3/26/2005 @ 10:26 pm PT...
If I was hired to "suicide" someone with Unknown incriminating evidence against my Employer I would empty the pockets of the "target/victim" to ensure no evidence was overlooked ,who would know, a single item could blow the whole thing ,say a key to a safe deposit box anything.............
"Just for the record, the pictures are labeled with a prefix of "DSCF". "Detective Shannon C. Floyd". It's her camera. She must have used it before this crime scene."
This DSCF00?????.JPG........ is the default prefix on most digital cameras.
Clift is a pawn not a player.
COMMENT #542 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/26/2005 @ 10:29 pm PT...
Note my comment #538
"small areas of blood" - throwing the belt? Doesn't sound like other descriptions of cutting arterial veins to me.
Also, according to my info reposted in #538, there's no mention of the ceiling. I was mistaken, I think about the ceiling. Will check the reports again.
COMMENT #543 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/26/2005 @ 10:31 pm PT...
I STILL say that Lemme most probably was grabbed in a one-armed choke hold (accounting for the neck "bruising" and pooling of blood due to carotid compression) and thereafter, having lost consciousness from reduced cranial blood flow, was manipulated into the situation the photographs show. I have no opinion on dark spots on his torso. I don't want to have one, unless my initial impressions are proved to be erroneous.
COMMENT #544 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/26/2005 @ 10:32 pm PT...
I wonder if we can get the names of all the guys in the group photo. I'm pegging the one second from left in the top row as Clift. The guy below Lemme to the far right is Secretary Barry.
With that, nighty night you west coast peoples!
Clift has all the time lies. Floyd has all the evidence lies.
COMMENT #545 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/26/2005 @ 10:36 pm PT...
Kira #538,
Concerning the first part of your comment, what do you think of this?
COMMENT #546 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/26/2005 @ 10:38 pm PT...
Well - that would be a SMALL amount, wouldn't it??? Wouldn't you love to hear the investigators from VPD describe the scene?
COMMENT #547 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/26/2005 @ 10:40 pm PT...
On the witness stand, I meant to add...
COMMENT #548 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 3/26/2005 @ 10:40 pm PT...
Whatabout "Miss Carriage of Justice" or "Miss Ilse"
COMMENT #549 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/26/2005 @ 10:43 pm PT...
This is too weird and too late. Good night, sweet ghouls...and may choirs of angels... etc...
COMMENT #550 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/26/2005 @ 10:49 pm PT...
Haha, cute, MMIIXX! I don't know what to think - did the VPD intentionally cover-up in this case or are most of their cases fraught with such sloppiness? I posted something either on this thread or the earlier one written by a former VPD officer turned journalist, who claimed the Dept. was pretty lousy at keeping records, investigating & etc. A long list.
COMMENT #551 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/26/2005 @ 11:14 pm PT...
This DSCF00?????.JPG........ is the default prefix on most digital cameras.
It stands for DIGITAL STORAGE COMPACT FLASH.
COMMENT #552 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/26/2005 @ 11:44 pm PT...
Peg C., I just posted this comment (below) on the BradBlog "Alive & Well" thread where you posted a fractal image. To others who would like to see this exquisite image:
Vernal Equinox
Peg C. are you the "Fractal Goddess?"
I just visited the home page of (possibly you) and saw some of the most gorgeous fractal creations I've ever seen!
Thanks for posting "Vernal Equinox." Most beautiful.
COMMENT #553 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/27/2005 @ 1:06 am PT...
MMIIXX #551,
Thanks for that tip - I've never had a compact flash camera before. I thought the DSCF was an optional way of coding the pictures in folders or something. I've only had 2 digital cameras - they both had IMG prefix's. Bummer, her credentials/initials matched too.
But the point still stands that she didn't seek any professional assistance to get the digital images extracted - afterall, they were salvagable.
COMMENT #554 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/27/2005 @ 1:09 am PT...
For Kira: I think the last revision of the letter is perfect. Let's go with it.
COMMENT #555 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/27/2005 @ 2:06 am PT...
Fred I'll take your word it that she didn't get "professional assistance" but I bet it wasn't to salvage the pictures ,it was to hide the pictures.
Why would she leave the police department when she seemed to be "on the way up" in what seemed to be a "chosen" career.
I think she was unfortunate to become involved with this event and was probably told by "higher ups" that it was a Homeland Security Investigation and she would be "looked after" for her understanding and co-operation.
Maybe the "leaked" pictures are a result of her "seeing the light " or not being "looked after".........she should be careful.........
Would be good to get all the pictures as there should be 10 times what I've seen so far.
COMMENT #556 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/27/2005 @ 8:19 am PT...
MMIIXX, cute, thanks. hehe
Fred #545, those dots of blood look like part of a flow that could also have reached the bathroom door (which is probably just beyond the edge of the picture).
Is "arterial" blood flow the correct term? Or venous?
The guy second from the left, top row could easily pass for Lemme. Who is that?
I still think Clift did it. It's the Lefty stuff.
COMMENT #557 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/27/2005 @ 8:39 am PT...
Cheryl #446 How do we tell?
Kira #457 I think DOI stands for Director of Investigations.
RLM #461 The problem is that "questionable death" is a conclusion. One cannot get to that conclusion, under Georgia law, unless and until "foul play" has been ruled out by two officials. In this case, one from the VPD and one from the Coroner. We do not know who had the official clout in each agency to do that.
What we do know is that it was done "immediately". The next day.
And even more importantly, there is a 30 day period after the filing of the death certificate, under Georgia law, in which the spouse can challenge the finding which mandates an autopsy.
What that does show is that strings were being pulled at very strongly in higher places. Higher than Detective field investigators and ME's in the Coroner's office.
And at the spouse level, where there was knowledge of prior murder plots against Ray, and knowledge that he was into something in an investigation that was stressing him, NO DEMAND for a coroner's inquest.
So your summary is biased to the extent it waters down the procedure Georgia law mandates. It is more robust than what you portrayed. Therefore a robust resistance had to be applied by those not wanting the inquest to take place.
Fred #507 To "comb thru" something means to look closely at it. It could mean follow the money.
Peg C #513 I missed the post[s] where we proved Lemme had a cell phone ... which are they?
COMMENT #558 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/27/2005 @ 9:52 am PT...
I wake up every day with a new idea.
Here's today’s:
It was Clift:
1) Clift makes the reservation on Sunday 6/29 to hold that specific room so he'd have a certain place and a certain parking spot. (Lemme wouldn’t have done that – no need to for suicide.) I’d be willing to bet that whoever the killer was has stayed in that particular room several times, has visited the strip clubs, and has used the loan place.
2) The fiscal year was ending soon, the day was Monday June 30, 2003. The investigative report had already been typed up, was in final form, and ready for the 1.30 meeting. Lemme left for work with the report in the manilla folder, a pad of paper, his black book, and his usual stuff including the meds. Both Clift and Lemme were going to be at that afternoon meeting to sign the report. Curtis dates this time as when the case would go open. Lemme had the report with him.
3) Lemme never called Clift that morning. It was impossible. But Clift somehow knew that loan place number – he just didn’t know the hours of operation. Clift is now formally tied into the story.
4) Clift was not at the office that morning. There was no message from Lemme but this gives Clift his alibi since the check-in was at 6.54a.
5) Clift would have to kill Lemme. Hence the (at least) 1 irrefutable mark on Lemme's chest with the bloodless ring around it. There is no mistaking that. Who knew that the later blood wouldn’t absorb in the ring around one of those marks. A taser/stun gun aimed point blank and directly at the heart – the bloodless ring is not obvious then. Point blank range leaves the residue. After being tasered, some bloodless death happens. Neck? Heart attack? Not sure of the location where Clift tasered and killed him but Lemme dutifully left home early for it.
6) So Clift is not at the office, where was he really? Well, he’s hauling a dead body is in the trunk of Lemme’s car. He drives to the fleabag and he checks in at the fleabag at 6.54a. on 6/30. The guy second from the left, top row, could easily be mistaken for Lemme checking in or out. Is that Clift? Bragg?
7) Clift leaves Lemme’s body in the car at the fleabag.
8) Porter was already there and has taken a room just above Clifts. Porter and Clift drive back to Tallahassee together.
9) Clift is back in the office before 8.10a. And he is there to get the call from the missed 1.30 appointment- he must be back for these events. Meanwhile, Lemme’s car is still at the fleabag with Lemme in the trunk and is seen at 3.pm (Monday).
10) Clift must wait until dark to bring the body into the room. After he signs his affidavit, he heads back to the fleabag. He has fished with Mrs. Lemme to make sure no information got to her. Meanwhile, livor mortis has set in on Ray Lemme’s neck and cheek and right side, Lemme’s back is facing the opening of the trunk, head to the right.
11) It’s dark. The affidavit is produced. Clift drives back at the fleabag. The body can be brought in easily, no steps, car right there. No blood. Was the car backed in? Who’s prints were on the wheel? The killer is familiar with the area and knows this can be done. The killer cuts his hand.
12) Clift brings Lemme’s body in, brings all the stuff from the car inside – coffee from the morning and his own water from the afternoon. Clift takes the shirt and possessions off of Lemme and places things on the counter, Lefty style. The shirt is hung in Lefty fashion as well. And everything placed in the room is Lefty. But Clift doesn’t think to remember Lemme’s wallet is in the console – with his credit card. Or he finds it on Lemme and goes to put it in the console. No need to leave Mary Ann with a big bill should someone steal the card, he knows the area.
13) Everything has worked out so far. So on with the original plan. Clift uses a pre-prepared sheet of his own ringed black book and a practiced and very pre-prepared suicide note and clips it into Lemme’s book. There is one partial print where Clift held the paper to put it in the rings. Prints are on the open/close levers though. The only addition to the note would be the time, but 8.10a worked out fine.
14) The toilet seat is up.
15) Clift puts him in the tub, does the arm bit, puts the arm over Lemme’s chest to get the shirt covered in blood to hide the taser marks and lets him bleed for awhile. Again, who knew the circular area around the one mark would not absorb blood. But now there is blood. He sprinkles some of it on the towel, drawing a line from the belt to the tub and then drawing a circle. The killer uses his left hand and throws the cloth side-arm across the back wall of the tub so as to land on the ledge randomly (the cloth marks are clear). He shoves the curtain half-closed, past the razor blade, and says good riddance, it’s over, curtain closed.
16) Clift had some help.
COMMENT #559 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/27/2005 @ 9:58 am PT...
Dredd #557
When you responded to my #507 asking about Lemme's placement of the COMB on the MONEY you responded:
"To "comb thru" something means to look closely at it. It could mean follow the money."
That's around the lines of what I was thinking! I later said in #512:
"Go over this room with a find comb for clues. That's how you'll strike paydirt."
These words come to mind: Comb, details, clues, search, Money, value, key, follow.
To me, looking at Lemme's personal items, the comb is the only product stacked in with an unlike object. The receipts are paper, so it makes sense that's how Lemme would stack them. But I see the comb/money and I hear this old familiar tune in my head:
"One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song?
Did you guess which thing was not like the others?
Did you guess which thing just doesn't belong?
If you guessed this one is not like the others,
Then you're absolutely...right!"
COMMENT #560 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/27/2005 @ 10:05 am PT...
For Dredd: For me, the phrase "questionable death" wasn't a legal judgment, simply a statement that reasonable people have questioned the finding of suicide...a literal statement, i.e., that questions remain in the minds of concerned citizens.
There might be two ways to interpret every single item of forensic evidence. That's why I've insisted that our approach should be to ask, "How can a police chief abort an investigation into the death of someone who had been investigating corrupt conduct, based on a request from someone inside the agency the decedent was investigating?"
I can only intuit three possibilities: 1) Ray Lemme was murdered, and someone inside the D.O.T. either put out the contract or knows who did, or 2) Lemme committed suicide under duress after his wife and daughter had been threatened if he chose to continue his investigation, or 3) he committed suicide after being blackmailed with exposure of a personal weakness (pedagogy?) should he choose to continue the investigation.
If the solution to the crime could be any one of these, tjen a new, unbiased, politically neutral investigation is called for. I'd be hard pressed to imagine that anyone with an I.Q. over 50 could rule out all three based on the current evidence.
COMMENT #561 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/27/2005 @ 12:00 pm PT...
Hey all!
I think it's possible the VPD and the rest of the officials who ruled the case suicide too early did so solely on the basis that the room was locked from the inside.
Either they weren't clever enough to be able to figure out that the chain lock apparatus could be manipulated into place from the outside (as proved by Clint Curtis who stated he went to the exact room and did so within a matter of seconds) or they weren't clever enough to even consider it as a possibility.
BTW - Miss P., my question is what does DT (not DOI) stand for? Here's where you used DT in a post:
COMMENT #434
...Miss Persistent said on 3/25/2005 @ 9:27am PT...
Just curious (suprised?): How did our DT get the film?
======
COMMENT #562 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/27/2005 @ 12:07 pm PT...
RLM & everyone,
Yay. The letter is now ready for second phase.
Re: my earlier post #469.
I would like some feedback on these issues:
Question: Would it be more effective to send letters individually or as a group a la petition? If as a group, maybe it would be better to have Brad set up a webpage like other sites do for petitions, where we can enter our info and have it added to the “petition letter.”
We have to make sure to provide the footnoted webpage links – must make some kind of arrangement to do that if we send our letters individually or otherwise.
I can send the letter as a Footnoted Word Document to Brad or RLM (& then RLM can send to Brad – however you like) whenever we get everything ready.
COMMENT #563 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/27/2005 @ 12:47 pm PT...
Sorry Kira for the delay. DT = Deep Throat
COMMENT #564 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/27/2005 @ 1:32 pm PT...
Kira #552 -
Yes, that's my incipient website. Thanks for the comments.
COMMENT #565 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/27/2005 @ 1:35 pm PT...
Miss P. (re: DeepThroat) Gotcha. Thanks!
COMMENT #566 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/27/2005 @ 2:08 pm PT...
{ed note: Comment deleted at author's request}
COMMENT #567 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/27/2005 @ 2:17 pm PT...
{ed note: Comment deleted at author's request}
COMMENT #568 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/27/2005 @ 2:18 pm PT...
{ed note: Comment deleted at author's request}
COMMENT #569 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/27/2005 @ 2:20 pm PT...
Kira #561, to add to your VPD observation on closing the case so soon because of the locked door Maybe Floyd overgeneralized, called it a suicide, alerted the ME/C that it was a clear suicide, and on 7/24/03 she sits down to write the report. While writing she notices the bloodless circle. Can she admit her own mistake? There go the pictures.
COMMENT #570 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/27/2005 @ 2:20 pm PT...
Sorry guys - I was trying to reset the column width to 88 characters-as it was before I tried to create a column in a much earlier post. These 2 attempts have failed, so something else in that post must have triggered the column width change.
Winter Patriot is going to have to help here. WHERE IS WP?
COMMENT #571 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/27/2005 @ 2:23 pm PT...
Kira, ignore the website? (Maybe the width came from the long addresss?)
COMMENT #572 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/27/2005 @ 2:37 pm PT...
I've stayed away all day after my scenario post #558 and guess what? I've got a huge splinter deep in my thumb, my big toe is squished, and my palm is practically broken. All for trying to put up some bookshelves. They aren't up. Anyone want to wager on whether I'll give up?
COMMENT #573 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/27/2005 @ 4:27 pm PT...
2 Taser/stun gun stories:
METAIRIE, La. (AP) - A man sheriff's deputies had shot twice with a stun gun died Saturday, a day after he was pulled over for driving erratically, officials said. Jefferson Parish Sheriff's Office spokesman John Fortunato said Patrick Fleming died at a hospital. Officers had used a Taser stun gun on him twice when he fought with them - once after the traffic stop and then later at the jail.
Fortunato said Fleming, 35, was hospitalized after officers zapped him a second time and his breathing became labored.
Fortunato said the office would have no further comment Saturday. There was no immediate word on when an autopsy would be conducted to determine the cause of death."
link here
"As 47-year-old James Borden hits the ground, officer David Shaw is shocking him with a 50,000-volt Taser stun gun.
According to medical records, Shaw used the Taser at least six times before Borden died.
This was the straw that broke the camel's back.
The coroner, Dr. Roland Kohr, called the Taser shock partly responsible for Borden's death. He found that Borden had heart disease and toxic levels of two drugs, but that the stress from the Taser is what pushed him off edge.
"The application of the Taser was the trigger factor which stressed an already damaged heart to the point that it went into cardiac arrest," says Kohr. "The Taser is what triggered his heart attack."
link here
Still interesting how Mary Ann stresses the heart condition in her affidavit (even though we know the meds he was taking were not for severe heart problems). Well, she can fit in the story at any time as a helper. Indeed.
COMMENT #574 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/27/2005 @ 4:37 pm PT...
"Miss Aligned"
"Miss Stake"
?
Try the GWB DIY secret "If at first you don't succeed , Invade." steal somebody elses shelves.
COMMENT #575 [Permalink]
...
Miss ?
said on 3/27/2005 @ 5:24 pm PT...
Heeeheee MMIIXX. Hey, as long as I don't become Miss-Ing, I'm good!
COMMENT #576 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/27/2005 @ 5:52 pm PT...
Being the archives kinda feels like being in the morgue...Well that may be fitting.
HEELLLLOOOOO...ANYONE OUT THERE CAN HEAR ME?! I'M...STUCK...IN...THE...AR-CHIVES....
COMMENT #577 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/27/2005 @ 6:09 pm PT...
Miss P #558 (and other posts)
We agree on several points.
It would be hard to not believe that Clift was deep in this and that there was 'help'.
First- the two affidavits. (sorry for mis-interpreting the M.A. affidavit earlier-) but without the referral to the call at 6:15a.m. M.A.'s sworn affidavit is just a --"My husband left at 5:15 this a.m. and he was not home at 6:45p.m." ON a summer eve. The officer would have told her to 'come back' tomorrow.
Except for Clift, who had no reason to go to the police and make an affidavit. If he were not involved, that is.
So the, basically two affidavits look like a Clift orchestrated event to make sure M.A.'s backs his up in many ways. It does.
M.A. stated she tried all day to reach Lemme--would she not have called him at work? Called his boss, Clift, at work? Sure! But if Clift was not there he would not be reachable and wouldn't M.A. put that in her affidavit. Of course she would but Clift was there to prevent that.
The key was to have a call at 6:20 from the pay phone to Clift at the office --backed up by the phone co. log.
The message itself could be deleted by remote call and the answer lightwould go out.
The item 13 that the suicide not was made in advance and there was a helper I can agree with, but the actual details of what went on is just a guess, one of many. Just so clift could be back in Florida around 1p.m. --Is there any verification of the lawyers call to Clift or the lawyers name?
Another thing to look at is the blood on the rim of the tub on the left and the blood streaks down the side of the tub. In the picture it looks like the blood on the rim is a small circle with a trail, a pool of "dried" blood, rather than "clotted". Same with the streaks. Clotted blood contracts and should leave a pulled clot surrounded by light staining of the serum.
So why the drugs on the counter? In case there was an autopsy and there was a finding of excess aspirin in Lemme's remaining blood----the coroner would have the answer --the Ecotrin.
Why the excess aspirin? So Lemme's blood would not clot and there would be a lot of back flow into the tub from the cut vein. Even then the cut vein would not account for the loss of blood needed to produce death. So the acutual cause of death is unknown but could be as simple as a plastice bag over his head so death would be from lack of oxygen. A lot of blood in the tub could be misinterpreted by the VPD easily.
The coroner could have verified the cause as blood loss by taking up the contents of the tub into jars and taking the jars to the lab. Spin the contents down and weigh the solids---mainly red blood cells, which would be about 40% of the whole blood lost.
5 lbs of red cells maybe-check my math-would mean Lemme lost 12 lbs of blood which would be 12 pints. Maybe enough loss to cause death, but would take a long time. Any report of corroboration of quantity of blood loss by the coroner in his report?
And the choice of the arm vein is more like a technique of an embalmer than a guy who is disturbed and only wants to suicide himself.
Too much Clift in too many ways and he is a rung on the ladder to the 'top' which Lemme stated his case was leading. Lemme told the wrong guy.
COMMENT #578 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/27/2005 @ 6:12 pm PT...
P.S. A plastic bag was found in the trunk of Lemme's car
COMMENT #579 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/27/2005 @ 6:50 pm PT...
You are ON top of it Cole!
I've wondered about how they took the missing persons so early. Then I thought since she pressed the "heart" issue it went through - with Clifts help. Nice story, covers a lot but not enough.
My god, excellent point - M.A. would have called him at work or called Clift --- yet no one was there. In saying she got the message from Clift when she got home --- she botched it there, you're on it!
No, no verification that the attorney called Clift at 2:00 to say Lemme missed the meeting. Clift knew about the meeting (maybe was even supposed to be there, but now I'm doubting that), that's all we know. But he really, really needs to look like he was there all day. Especially if he knew in advance that Lemme was not going to make the meeting - he'd be sure to catch that innocent call from the attorney.
Yes! Porter (or whomever) could have called Clift to log the phone call in. But I understand the loan place was closed. Maybe it wasn't.
Item #13, The note in advance is definetly a guess --- one that helps give Clift days or months for a good forgery. Doesn't seem like he'd have Lemme sit there and sweat.
The blood is wrong everywhere you look. Did you see the swoosh of the cloth - from above right to below down - landing on that edge. The swoosh marks are clear.
So, he uses a stun gun, then a plastic bag. Maybe leaves the bag on there all day while he's gone. He takes the bag off before he brings the body in. That's why he forgets to take it with him.
Unfortunately, I don't think the ME/C even actually went to the scene - he reported there were no meds. Floyd took 2 swabs of blood, that's it. Anyone know the details on the ME/C part?
Yes, Clift. And now, what prompted Clift to do the dirty work? Was is simple - an affair with M.A. that they thought they could push off on the "workload" and "heart condition," or, was he being blackmailed and by whom and for what? And how does M.A. fit there.
So, now it's on to the motive and up up up we go from here. Clift and M.A. should definitely start thinking about a plea bargain.
COMMENT #580 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/27/2005 @ 6:58 pm PT...
P.S. I may retract the part about blackmail. The shower curtain was moved past the razor blade - a move borne more of emotion than cold rational planned thought - because it's another slip up. Clift was disgusted and bade Lemme good riddance with that move.
COMMENT #581 [Permalink]
...
Peggy
said on 3/27/2005 @ 6:59 pm PT...
I could be wrong, but seems that a shirt was hung up (rather dishevelled) as opposed to the neatness of the items laid out. If a taser was used to subdue him, it would likely be used prior to removing the shirt??? Lemme was wearing a T-shirt in the tub.
I am a leftie (slightly ambi). If I was to cut the arm (which I wouldn't, couldn't), I would crouch/kneel in front of the inert body, which is positioned sitting up in the tub, so I could manoeuver the arm. The use of the tub is also to prevent blood getting on me.
To further try to ensure blood didn't get all over me, use the belt as a tornique. Tie the belt, buckle on the left (tongue outside), run the belt thru the buckle with my right hand, push the tongue thru a hole in the belt with my left hand.
Hold the belt with right hand to position the arm. Pick up the blade with the towel in my left fingers. Slice the arm from the elbow down to the wrist. Place the blade carefully behind and away from my body on the outside of the tub with my left hand. Toss the towel away to the inside of the tub.
Release the belt by holding it in my right hand, pull tongue with left hand. Hold the arm in my left hand while dropping the belt outside tub onto the bathroom floor. The belt may flick some blood during the release and landing on the floor. Place the arm across the body.
I would also wear those throw away rubber medical gloves. Better to handle the blade, etc.
Maybe you already envisioned this.
P.S. No one has said WHERE CLIFT IS? Also, he may have tricked the wife into letting him handle all the arrangements concerning the body. That's why it got cremated so fast. Also, Clift may have told some nasty untrue stories about Lemme, that made the wife not want to say anything, but go with the flow.
P.P.S. All the way to the top, may have meant Clift was getting a pay-off to let the dirty contracts flow. And it may have been Clift that got Curtis and Georgalis fired.
COMMENT #582 [Permalink]
...
Peggy
said on 3/27/2005 @ 7:10 pm PT...
1. How about some background research on Clift? Does he have a connection with Feeney/Bush? What does he look like?
2. The two black guys outside the motel could be witnesses, who encountered the murderer leaving the scene of the crime. Maybe he was in a hurry and bumped them, or got in their way, or asked them to move their car, or something, that resulted in a conversation.
COMMENT #583 [Permalink]
...
Peggy
said on 3/27/2005 @ 7:16 pm PT...
Moving the shower curtain along is habitual, part of the tidiness gig. Question is, was it moved with bloody gloves, or after removal of the bloody gloves.
Careful removal of bloody gloves takes place in the bathroom and could result in specks of blood landing on the bathroom door. The bloody gloves would be placed in a plastic bag in a pocket, to be disposed of on the drive back, somewhere between Valdosta and Tallahassee.
COMMENT #584 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/27/2005 @ 7:17 pm PT...
Peggy! A resident lefty who can visualize!
Good point about the shirt, must ponder. Thanks for saying it was disheveled, I agree.
No hole in the belt that far down. So, one hand must still be on the belt and keeping it tight - the right hand you say. I can see it.
What do you mean where Clift is?
It is peculiar that M.A. would have made a decision that fast and not be in the "disbelief" phase of a suddent death. It's quite nagging that she made the decision so fast and Cole #577 has excellent points that kind of bring M.A. as close to this as she can be.
Hmmm...Clift with a pay-off...and with a little business at the Pay Fast Loan, a frequenter of the Fleabag, and the Strip Joints.
COMMENT #585 [Permalink]
...
Peggy
said on 3/27/2005 @ 7:18 pm PT...
One more thing - I don't recall how Lemme was cut.
If not from elbow to wrist - then, as a leftie, I would cut from right to left, across the wrist with my left hand, while holding the arm/belt with my right.
COMMENT #586 [Permalink]
...
Peggy
said on 3/27/2005 @ 7:22 pm PT...
Miss P #584 - After reading all the above research, I was left with the impression Clift was no longer with FDOT????
COMMENT #587 [Permalink]
...
Peggy
said on 3/27/2005 @ 7:25 pm PT...
Miss P #584 - Yes, of course, no holes in the belt there, so I would hold it in my right hand.
Then, how did Lemme hold the belt tight and cut himself at the same time???
COMMENT #588 [Permalink]
...
Peggy
said on 3/27/2005 @ 7:29 pm PT...
Okay - so Lemme tightens the belt and then wraps the end around his arm as many times as it will go. But, as someone has said above, why do this if you simply intend to cut your wrists and die? Have other suiciders used a tornique?
COMMENT #589 [Permalink]
...
Peggy
said on 3/27/2005 @ 7:40 pm PT...
A little bit more on the leftie/rightie saga:
As a leftie, I would want to have my left knee and left arm against the side of the tub. It "feels" more comfortable.
Can you righties confirm that you would do the opposite? That is, place the body in the tub facing you, with your right knee against the side of the tub? Or doesn't it make a difference? Or is Lemme/tub position okay for you if you had to cut his arm??
COMMENT #590 [Permalink]
...
Peggy
said on 3/27/2005 @ 7:43 pm PT...
Sorry - last post here.
I was thinking, wouldn't a rightie have to pull Lemme's arm out of the tub over the bathroom floor in order to cut it? Pretty awkward leaning into the tub with your right hand to cut his left arm...
Bye, no more comments for now.
COMMENT #591 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/27/2005 @ 7:46 pm PT...
re:One more thing - I don't recall how Lemme was cut.
two 1 inch incisions in crock of left elbow
Clift is a pawn.
2. The two black guys outside the motel could be witnesses, who encountered the murderer leaving the scene of the crime. Maybe he was in a hurry and bumped them, or got in their way, or asked them to move their car, or something, that resulted in a conversation.
Hows it go ....keep it simple,stupid...............these two "witness" are more likely "perps" than "bystanders" if your gotta push the Clift thing maybe he was the third "white male" if it wasn't Lemme (my choice) and he was getting the "all done" from the "perps" .
Can these two guys be tracked as "real" people that are traceable TODAY or have they disappeared (stangely)?
COMMENT #592 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/27/2005 @ 7:53 pm PT...
I don't know how descriptive the Coroner's report is. The copy of it on Insider is barely legible. There aren't any pictures to see which end of the cut is deeper.
Cole, it looks like the Coroner came at 2.08 (1 hour after discovery). The pickup vehicle came a little over an hour after that. On the Coroner's report is asks: Known Medication: None.
COMMENT #593 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/27/2005 @ 8:03 pm PT...
Peggy #586 - Oh, yeah, no research on Clift as yet.
Peggy #587 - Excellent point - how the heck could Lemme keep the belt tight while cutting his arm?? Well, we didn't see a tool for cutting a new hole anyway. How about he holds it in his teeth? Don't laugh - I have no clue.
COMMENT #594 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/27/2005 @ 8:15 pm PT...
One of the documents I had was that in March of 2004, Robert E. Clift, Office of Investigations, FDOT, is listed as giving a presentation on "Fraud and Ethical Conduct." up in Altoona, PA.
I think before I found the above document, I had not seen Clift on what I thought were the current FDOT rolls and so I thought he was no longer there. Still up in the air. Not enough info. Kira to the rescue?
See ya tomorrow.
COMMENT #595 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/27/2005 @ 8:16 pm PT...
Peggy
Lemme was cut on the left arm -near the elbow-two one inch cuts. Too neat and not a lethal wound. It would take a long long time to bleed out 12 to 14 pints of blood (or more?).
Miss P #579
I do not have a good fix on the role of M.A.--either a manipulated vulnerable person or a participant.
It would blend easier if she participated.
I do not think Lemme was left in his car--too much round trip time for more than once. and too much risk taking him out of the car, even for the fleabag--
Makes more sense to me that Lemme was somewhat immobile and brought into the room early a.m. and whatever was done to make it look like blood loss death. A plastic bag to run his oxygen out and he dies, the bag gets put into the trunk of the car rather than become available by chance. Who would make a big deal of a plastic bag in the trunk--certainly not the VDP.
COMMENT #596 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/27/2005 @ 8:20 pm PT...
Ok Cole, but do the time. 6.54 check-in and 8.10 back in the office. I almost did a second scenario with Clift taking care of everything then and there but the time doesn't work that I can see. Any thoughts?
I'm gonna sleep on it.
COMMENT #597 [Permalink]
...
Peg C
said on 3/27/2005 @ 8:20 pm PT...
Excuse me for intruding into this tete-a-tete in the archives, but I've been wondering whether anyone would bring this up: dead bodies don't bleed much at all, let alone bleed out. The heart has stopped pumping. Just an observation.
COMMENT #598 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/27/2005 @ 8:37 pm PT...
You could DNA the saliva in a plastic bag if it was used to suffocate someone, you wouldn't leave it laying around to be found.
BY THE WAY ,what do you think of this little observation
Look at photo DSCF0007.JPG ,now the page with "the Note" on it has round corners but the pages on the left side have square corners and if you measure the width of the pages the two types are different ...odd ,more that one round corner page can be seen on the right hand side of Diary.
Could note have been added to diary?
COMMENT #599 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/27/2005 @ 8:44 pm PT...
Hey you forensic detectives! I agree about the use of the belt. How did he hold it and cut. Hmmm. Great point. I'm of the opinion that Lemme might have been sedated or unconscious, but not dead when the vein was cut.
Also - I have just emailed Brad with a copy of the letter we want to send to get his comments & suggestions.
I also asked him to fix the width of this site back to its orig. format.
COMMENT #600 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/27/2005 @ 8:48 pm PT...
Also the word "family" looks like it was "struck out" ,maybe in a earlier attempt to write "the note" on the previous page.He may have wrote "I love my wife" being under pressure to write it ,then the bad guys say no re-write it and say this "blah blah blah"
full resolution pictures would help.
COMMENT #601 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/27/2005 @ 9:30 pm PT...
Hey all. This thread has scrolled off the main page.
Lets take some time to reflect. Condense into main questions and points.
Then see what we need in order to make as many reasonable conclusions as we can fairly make.
Then proceed in the new thread Brad plans in a few days.
Good work!
COMMENT #602 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/27/2005 @ 9:32 pm PT...
Miss P 556
You asked about blood flow--
Arterial blood flows while in the body in pulses responding to heart beat and under high pressure.
Venous blood flows in the body back toward the heart under light pressure, venous valves keep the blood from flowing back.
When cut the artery will spurt blood, like water from a hose, and leave a multiple droplet trail, not a couple of single drops.
When cut a vein will 'ooze' not spurt.
The importance here is that Lemme had to ooze blood from a fairly small vein and to cause death from loss it would take a long time. A long uncomfortable time-- suggested from the position he was found.
But, in the upright position in the tub Lemme could loose considerable blood from the vein chosen even if severely incapacitated, due to gravity. And if he had enough aspirin in him clotting would be deminished and flow could continue for a while even if his heart stopped.
And, of course he would take off the touniquit--it gets very uncomfortable very quickly.
Everything in this fleabag room 132 is too neat.
No finger prints. Chair, table, tub, day diary etc
Neat note--does not look like any duress.
Shirt neatly hung.
Personal contents on the vanity, layed out and carefully spaced.
And two 'neat' one inch cuts on the arm to sever a vein most people would not know exists!
Two cuts like an embalmer might make ( Hate to say that again).
But did Clift ever work for a funeral home? Or Lemme?
Lemme got in the tub in his pants and shirt? More likely somone put him in the tub and knew to leave his cloths on to prevent leaving any marks.
COMMENT #603 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/27/2005 @ 9:50 pm PT...
Miss P. - re: Clift's current position at FDOT
Looking at MyFlorida.com website, (as of Jan. 2005) Cecil Bragg is still Investigator General & Clift is still Director of Investigations.
COMMENT #604 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/27/2005 @ 10:50 pm PT...
Getting back to the belt thing - a long time back I questioned WHY Lemme didn't prepare himself better by procuring some normal kind of tourniquet device such as the rubber tube thingy (don't know the correct terminology) used by the medical profession when drawing blood. That would stay tight without having to keep pulling on it. Somebody (Miss P I think) laughed at that idea, but I was serious - (it's ok! I didn't take it personally.)
He wouldn't have to buy the blades at the same time. I would guess you could pick up one of those things at a diabetic store (just guessing.) Since he wasn't going to commit a murder with it, why worry about buying one? Other than that particular item, I would guess some other type of rubber elastic would work about the same.
Now - that big vein inside the elbow that is used when the Nurse wants to draw blood - is that the "slow bleeder" vein you're talking about?
Lemme had Military training and was still active in the Air Force Reserves. I assume he had some training or came into contact with some information on this kind of death, would y'all think? So, is it a dumb way to do it? Is it a slow & painful way to do it? If so - I'm betting he wouldn't choose that way to do it.
I would be willing to bet money that he would have used a gun - Military folks are trained to use them and they work faster.
Slowly bleeding away is not for the faint at heart.
COMMENT #605 [Permalink]
...
Peg C
said on 3/27/2005 @ 10:54 pm PT...
Dredd #601 -
Amen. Sweet dreams, all, and a wonderful spring week full of newly polished hopes.
COMMENT #606 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/27/2005 @ 11:29 pm PT...
Nighty-night Peg, sweet dreams and wishing some nice weather for you.
Anybody still up?
COMMENT #607 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/28/2005 @ 2:32 am PT...
Kira, it would be better if you sent the letter directly to Brad. He should decide how to identify the writer(s).
No disrespect meant to anyone, but a letter carrying names like "MMIIXX," "Dredd" and "Miss Persistent" might not have the same impact as one signed with a legal name. If Brad were to sign his own name "...in behalf of (several hundred?) correspondents to his weblog," that would protect the anonymity of everyone yet carry the weight of numbers.
COMMENT #608 [Permalink]
...
Billy
said on 3/28/2005 @ 8:02 am PT...
this is one epic thread...
just to say re. #604 and others (apologies for grisly details but it is hard to avoid) - cutting a vein quite possibly won't kill you. the relative few who commit suicide using a tourniquet like this do so because it enables them to cut an artery, not a vein. the tourniquet means they can make a deep cut (or two) unhindered by the high pressure spurts of blood that would otherwise result from an arterial wound.
COMMENT #609 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/28/2005 @ 9:38 am PT...
You got it #598 MMIIXX!!! Did you read my scenario post #558 where Clift slips the sheet in? I hadn't even consciously noticed the shape of the paper! Excellent observation!!!!
The note is underlined twice on I love you M.A. because Clift is trying to keep M.A. clear - we've all fallen for it (except when common sense takes hold!)
COMMENT #610 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/28/2005 @ 9:52 am PT...
Cutting an artery is not an effective way of suiciding oneself, for a lot of reasons including that arteries retract and go into spasm and essentially stop bleeding.
Miss P # 596
There is no need for Clift to be back by 8:10a.
The 6:20a.m. call is to give Clift the morning off.
He can claim to have been in the office because 'he answered the phone message' and then claim he took a call from the lawyer at 2:00p.m.
If he did, in fact, take the lawyer call at 2:00p.m. then he still had about seven hours to be anywhere. Including room 132 for a while and then a leisurely drive back to Florida.
But there had to be a 'helper'. One to drive Lemme's car to the fleabag, to sign him in, and to assist in the room, and one to make the 6:20 call.
Is there anyway to find out when M.A. checked in at her work site on the 30th?
COMMENT #611 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/28/2005 @ 10:07 am PT...
There is no doubt that the note could have been prepared before the event--could be realtively easy for someone who has access to Lemme's written material.
But using a different size paper---ah, another bit of sloppy technique for such a 'perfect' crime.
COMMENT #612 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/28/2005 @ 10:18 am PT...
Dredd #601. Many of the most factual observations have just recently surfaced (e.g., the bloodless circle on his shirt and the two marks) - we have more to go. Not sure if we can harness our imaginations just thus and so
Cole, OK, the 8.10a is out - and now at least has a purpose for being there (as an obstacle).
I think I need Lemme's stun gunned self to be brought in during the dark. Could Lemme have left much earlier than 5.15a. Or, is Porter's room above a good lookout point?
COMMENT #613 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/28/2005 @ 11:19 am PT...
RLM - We should never use our screen names when either signing petitions or writing letters to government officials. You have to sign your legal name and probably give your address as well to make an impact.
As per my comment #599, I sent Brad a copy of the letter yesterday. Since we quoted him, I thought he should have the opportunity of reading it before we send it. I also asked him whether he thought we should send it once to each person on our list with all our names/addresses or if we should send them individually.
I'm waiting for his response & will let everyone know his decision when I hear back. I hope he's not drowning in email. If I don't hear something today, I'll post a message on his newest topic at Bradblog homepage.
COMMENT #614 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/28/2005 @ 1:28 pm PT...
Just heard back from Brad who has made a couple of suggestions that will require a revision on the letter. Will update as soon as I can.
COMMENT #615 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/28/2005 @ 2:13 pm PT...
Miss P. post #592 - Miss Persistent said, "I don't know how descriptive the Coroner's report is. The copy of it on Insider is barely legible. "
==========================
I searched back into the 1st thread of info because I remembered American Woman had posted the 1st page of Coroner's report typed out. I'm reposting:
COMMENT #502 [link]
...AMERICAN WOMAN said on 3/12/2005 @ 6:09pm PT...
Here is my transcription of the Georgia Coroner's Death Investigation Report as reproduced in Clint Curtis' book. The report is almost all in caps, including the typed answers, so I took some liberties there for legibility. I've bolded the text that appears to be the form so that it can be distinguised from the part that is filled in.
[BEGIN REPORT]
CORONER'S DEATH INVESTIGATION REPORT
CASE NUMBER: 7-2-03
NOTIFICATION DATE: 7-01-03
NOTIFICATION TIME: 13:56
NOTIFIER'S AGENCY: SHELIA HANER, DISPATCH/911
CITY INCIDENT OCCURED: Valdosta
COUNTY: Lowndes
INVESTIGATING OFFICER & AGENCY:
Det. Craig Spencer/Valdosta Police Dept.
CONCERNING THE DECEDENT
Name: Raymond Camillo Lemme
Age: 56
Race: White
Sex: Male
Who Pronounced Death: Charles Exum/ Coroner
Date Pronounced: July 1, 2003
Time Pronounced: 14:15
Type of Death: Natural
Death Witnessed: No
Person found dead by: Valdosta Police Officers at Request of Manager
Address Where Death Occurred:
Room #132, Knights Inn, 2110 West Hill Avenue
Valdosta, GA. 31601
Date/Time Body Found: July 1, 2003/Approx 13:09
Description of Circumstances: See Comments
Personal Doctor's Name/Phone#: None
Known Medications: None
Known Illnesses: None
Complaints: Found dead
Person Signing Death Certificate: Charles Exum/ Coroner
Cause of Death Listed on D/C:
SHARPE FORCE TRAUMA OF THE LEFT ARM
HOW OCCURRED; INCISED HIMSELF WITH A RAZOR BLADE
Manner of Death Listed on D/C:
Homicide:
Suicide: X
Accidental:
Natural Causes:
Undetermined:
Pending:
COMPLETE IF DECEDENT SUSTAINED INJURIES:
Date/Time of Injury: July 1, 2003/ 08:10AM
Address of Injury: Room #132, Knights Inn, 2110 West Hill Avenue, Valdosta, GA 31601
HOW INJURY OCCURRED:
Gunshot:
Sharp Force: x
Blunt Force:
Asphyxiated:
Other:
COMPLETE IF DECEDENT WAS FOUND DEAD:
Date/Time Last Known Alive: June 30, 2003/approx 18:45 He checked in Knights Inn.
COMPLETE IF CORONER ACCEPTS JURISDICTION:
Was Coroner on Scene? : Yes
Body Identified by Whom: License
Transport By: Music Funeral Services
Medical Examiner Name: A. J. Clark MD (NBJ)
Date/Time Notified: July 1, 2003
Exam Type:
None
Autopsy
External only X
TOX
Limited dissection
EXAM PLACE/DATE/TIME: Knights Inn/July 1, 2003
NEXT OF KIN NAME & ADDRESS: WIFE, MARY ANN LEMME
Personal Effects Released To: N/A
Personal Effects Released By: N/A
Date/Time of Release: N/A
Body Released To:
MUSIC FUNERAL HOME INC
VALDOSTA, GA(CORONER ROTATION)
TO BE REMOVED, JULY2, 2003 by
CULLEy & SONS FUNERAL HOME 1737 RIGGINS ROAD, TALLAHASSEE, FLA 32308
BODY RELEASED BY: CE
DATE/TIME of RELEASE: JULY 1, 2003
COMMENTS:
HELD IN COLLER AT SGMC UNTIL FLORIDA FUNERAL DIRECTOR COMES FOR HIS BODY
APPARENTLY LEFT A NOTE
HE WAS INVESTIGATOR FOR STATE OF FLORIDA, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
CORONER'S SIGNATURE AND DATE
(signed by Charles Exum dated July 2, 2003)
[END REPORT]
COMMENT #616 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/28/2005 @ 3:54 pm PT...
Well, after the initial surprise of having to press the down button on the elevator to reach this threads' morgue...with the Lemme matter still on the gurney... I am now quite comfortable here. Very quiet at times.
I don't mind at all talking about the science of it - the valves we have in our veins is so very cool. When I learned that in HA&P I couldn't stop testing that out on myself. What a wonderful thing, the human body. And gravity, and physics.
So, as far as I'm concerned, we've just now got our sleeves rolled up.
Cole, #610. I've got one for you. OK, if Clift is out for most of the day, then could M.A. really have tried to call him? But, Clift called on the home phone at 4 and not her work phone to leave his message.
I think Clift would have wanted to be "observable" at the office for as much of the day as possible - not knowing whether his alibi would be checked on. Maybe we can safely assume that just having the time noted on the suicide note is not something a suicidal person would not feel they needed to do - not to mention the different paper shape of it. So we may be able to assume that noting the 8.10 is critical to someone.
Just did a general search "office hours FDOT" and came up mostly with 8-5.
Cole #611 - there is no such thing as a perfectcrime, we'll find out eventually
We know:
1) There is an unbloody circle with a blackish dot right over the heart;
2) The suicide note paper has square edges while it looks like the paper to the left is round edged;
So, Lemme was maimed when he was brought in the room or coaxed into the room and maimed shortly thereafter. The freaking bloodless circle is right at his heart. He was up close and personal with someone at some time.
Kira, thanks for the ME/C report.
Kira: This may be worthless but, in 1999, there was a funeral of a co-worker at FDOT where Jose Abreu and someone named Espinosa attended. The case is stupid but some names may come out of it.
link here
COMMENT #617 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/28/2005 @ 4:31 pm PT...
LOL Miss P.!
We have most certainly made our way down into the deep, dark & dank bowels of this investigation. A place unlikely visited by the original Detectives or Medical Forensic experts.
We the citizens have lit the Lamp of Discovery! Onward Patriots!
COMMENT #618 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/28/2005 @ 4:54 pm PT...
Kira, Looks like you and I are on the Night Shift. Mooooaaaaa!!
COMMENT #619 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/28/2005 @ 5:14 pm PT...
Izzat why this subject is so daaaark? Muwahahah!
COMMENT #620 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/28/2005 @ 5:40 pm PT...
OK then. Back to business.
Cole, et. al., I'm re-writing the scenario and there are really only a few minor visions that change, and when they do, even more comes to light:
"Check out/Key Turn-in" was at 6.54a. This gives Clift exactly enough time to make it to the office by 8:10. Uh, almost on the nose. (IF Lemme left at 5.15 for this planned meeting)
The Room Key was available because they checked in the night before (remember I was the devils advocate proponent of the billing clock being off. I was wrong.) They needed that key for first thing in the morning.
If Lemme really left home at 5.15a (as according to M.A.), he and Clift would have arrived at the fleabag by 6.30 at the earliest (right anyone?) That gives 20 minutes to set the scene. Porter has the room above but is waiting in the room. Were 2 keys given out?
It doesn't matter if Lemme was tasered before getting in the car or after they entered the room (or both more likely). The heart is still beating until the second taser is fired. Let's say it's done once at the beginning (mark on his right) and once when they get in the room (mark on his heart). But, it would be less suspicious if the were not carrying around a lifeless body, and not a fighting one either. I'm not sure this is critical to the story just now.
And, the relative lack of blood is explained. Ah... so at first they turned him on the right side for a bit so as to let the blood drain over the taser mark. (Gravity of blood is clear in the photo.) The livor mortis sets in. They create the scene and then shift the body back into a more believable position. They did that blood pattern on the towel rather quickly...and Lefty threw that cloth down.
So, they left the motel before Lemme had bled out and so didn't notice the "freaking bloodless ring" at Lemme's heart. They were working fast. They put the arm on the chest thinking he'd bleed all over the shirt.
Is some "law enforcement knowledge" needed to know how to do this taser to the heart - how could they have been sure. Or was the blade deal part of a "just in case" his heart condition isn't as bad as we think it is?
Still ALL fits. Except the staff report of them having checked in the night before. Well that report could be wrong since they paid at 6.54 am. But, to me, this part is still bothersome.
Ah, like I said before, Clift was a regular customer! Could he have taken the room again but NOT laid out the receipts so pretty?
COMMENT #621 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/28/2005 @ 5:47 pm PT...
Question is "810" any sort of police event code ,like "10 4".
Why was the page with the suicide note REMOVED and placed in "Evidence" and not the whole Diary?
COMMENT #622 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/28/2005 @ 6:15 pm PT...
This document via the Wayback machine.
link here
Ivolving another "employee harrassment problem" does this seem to be an FDOT pattern or does this happen everywhere? Clift is present here too. Just trying to see what his interests are...
COMMENT #623 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/28/2005 @ 6:20 pm PT...
Miss P. - #620
Reference pix of Jon Benet's (suspected) stun gun marks: Stun Gun Marks Although, there is still argument that these marks weren't from a stun gun.
More info on stun guns:Shock Value
Stun Gun, Taser descriptions
And finally - the Asian Connection:
Amnesty International - A Shocking Discussion
... During the 1980s and 1990s production of stun weapons began in several other countries such as Brazil, France, Germany, Israel, Mexico and South Africa (see Appendix 2 for a full list). Other new products entered the international markets from the USA such as electro-shock riot shields, electro-shock stun belts (using a remote control - see further below), tasers (a device which fires darts connected to a 4 or 5 metre wire into a victim's body or clothes so that an electric shock using roughly 10 watts at 50,000 volts for two to three seconds is inflicted from a distance), and stun guns which also shoot tear gas.
Some companies manufacture their own stun weapons or manufacture under licence products designed elsewhere, while other companies involved in the trade have only been engaged in the marketing of stun weapons through specialist magazines and through international exhibitions on security equipment. Recently, for instance, Taiwanese stun batons were exhibited for sale in Shanghai; Brazilian stun batons were exhibited for sale in Washington; Chinese and Russian stun batons were exhibited for sale in Paris; French stun guns were exhibited for sale in Berlin; and South African stun batons and riot shields were exhibited for sale in both Israel and in the Palestinian Authority. Those invited to such exhibitions include a large proportion of police and military officials. However, the marketing of stun weapons in the USA, France, Taiwan, Israel, South Africa and Japan is also increasingly aimed at private security companies and even private consumers. In the USA this is carried out through mail order magazines, gun shops, uniform stores and general merchandise shops, and some even believe school teachers should use stun guns for classroom control.
-more-
COMMENT #624 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/28/2005 @ 6:30 pm PT...
Ah, MMIIXX, you've taken the elevator down to the thread morgue. Mooohahahaha. Enter please. If you dare.
Re #621, No lie why was the page removed? What a tangled web they weave.
On the same lines, was it Spencer's (not Floyd's) report that said there was not blood on the towel?
On my last scenario - MAYBE the clocks really were off (yes I flip-flop too dammit what's wrong with that?!). Fits the staff story. And Big Deal, they buy a room for 24 hrs at 6.54. Porter doesn't already have to be in the room, he just has to be able to GET to the room at the right time.
COMMENT #625 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/28/2005 @ 6:32 pm PT...
Oops, I copied the wrong paragraph instead of this one which has the Asian Connection info - same link as last one in post #623 - (Taiwan...China...)
..."Stun technology was initially developed in the United States of America (USA) during the 1970s. By 1982, Amnesty International was campaigning to prevent the transfer of electro-shock batons from the United Kingdom (UK) to South Korea following the suspension of an export licence for this purpose by the US government because of allegations of torture. South Korea began domestic production of stun weapons around this time. By 1985 Amnesty International was appealing to the government of Taiwan to prohibit the use by police of electro-shock batons which they had acquired on their own initiative from South Korea. Amnesty International pointed out that "the only apparent purpose for which electro-shock batons might be used by police officers against people in their custody would be to torture or ill-treat", but the government of Taiwan said such batons were for the self-defence of police officers. Taiwan subsequently became a leading producer and exporter of electro-shock weapons, and set up manufacturing facilities in mainland China where torture with such weapons is commonplace. A UK company manager has since described how his company supplied electro-shock batons to China one year after the suppression of the pro-democracy movement in 1989, stating that: The Chinese wanted to copy them."
COMMENT #626 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/28/2005 @ 6:36 pm PT...
You keep mentioning Porter --- who's that? Not Palmer??
COMMENT #627 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/28/2005 @ 6:43 pm PT...
Kira, can we find out if the darts have some residue on the rubber part (the part that hits hard but prevents the pointy part from penetrating all the way into the body)?
I'll argue against batons if it's anything like a "majorette" baton...because of the "bloodless circle." A dart fits the exact bill.
Still, your report..."Taiwan subsequently became a leading producer and exporter of electro-shock weapons, and set up manufacturing facilities in mainland China where torture with such weapons is commonplace," could include the Dart type.
BTW, Curtis' book just arrived today.
COMMENT #628 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/28/2005 @ 6:49 pm PT...
Thanks Kira, is it Palmer? Reminds me, so Palmer needed to have a ride back with Clift. He wasn't there at the time of interview was he? Only the third guy who could report on how things went down (and be a convenient witness), had his own car and was still there.
What do we know on Palmer?
COMMENT #629 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/28/2005 @ 7:05 pm PT...
Wait wait wait. The fleabag staff quote:
"Villait stated that "on June 30, 2003 Raymond Camillo Lemme, white male, checked into his hotel room early..." next sentence "...Villait stated that she informed Lemme that he would have to be out of the hotel room [early] due to the fact that he had checked in early on the previous night..."
Well of course. He checked in early on the previous day 6.54a 6/30 (not night), and would have to leave early (6.54a on 7/1) but they always use the term "night" AND they didn't know he didn't leave til the maid couldn't enter. Voila.
No more time conflict here. Receipts are correct as is (IMHO). Check-in/payout was 6.54a (per receipt). The quote, "on the previous 'night'" is just hotel jargon.
COMMENT #630 [Permalink]
...
Peggy
said on 3/28/2005 @ 7:08 pm PT...
A stun gun (or perhaps a needle) into the heart? Clift knew Lemme had a stent.
Clift knew about the ring binders. That's really interesting about the different paper for the suicide page!
Perhaps the reason for the slow bleed was torture? To have Lemme tell where he may have hidden any evidence?
If someone on the inside (Clift) of FDOT was assisting fraudulent contractors, he would from time to time run into employees who recognized something was wrong and have to get rid of them (Georgalis, Curtis) through firing, or Lemme (death)????
So Clift is still at FDOT. And Yang still has a contract with FDOT. Meanwhile look what has happened to the above three individuals.
What did Clift do before working at FDOT? What are his political connections with Feeney/Bush (I'm being cynical and presumptious)?
Can anyone purchase a stun gun? Does the purchase have to be registered? Does Clift own a stun gun??
COMMENT #631 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/28/2005 @ 7:17 pm PT...
Peggy, welcome down to the thread morgue! We've been expecting you...
(But I won't use the same "laugh" that I used with MMIIXX because I think I scared him off! (JUST kidding MMIIXX.))
COMMENT #632 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/28/2005 @ 7:29 pm PT...
Miss P. - WooHoo! You really nailed timeline with Villait's statement! NO MORE LIES.
Villait: "due to the fact that he had checked in early on the previous night..."
No way to squiggle outta this one, is there?
(I keep saying that about these ReThugs and they keep getting away scot-free anyway.)
Hey Peggy & MMIIXX! Welcome to the Underground.
COMMENT #633 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/28/2005 @ 7:30 pm PT...
I'm so sorry, I botched my little checkin-out theory. I meant to say the receipts are not correct, the first one is 12 hrs. off (IMHO) and they were generated at the same time - meaning that staff use of the term "night" only means they checked in the previous "sometime."
COMMENT #634 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/28/2005 @ 7:43 pm PT...
"Unfortunately, there is no "Star Trek" style weapon that can reliably and safely "stun" a person without some risk, however small, of lethality...Persons who already suffer from significant stresses to their heart or other organs can die from the additional stresses of what would otherwise be a "less than lethal" weapon, particularly if such weapons are misused.
They wished didn't they.
COMMENT #635 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/28/2005 @ 7:55 pm PT...
COMMENT #636 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/28/2005 @ 7:56 pm PT...
MissP #633,
Your are correct, because remember:
The receipts came from 2 different printers/computers/clocks. We know this because of the different "0" zeros.
So it's perfectly possible that the clock in the "motel" computer was set to the wrong am/pm (6:44pm 6/29/03 - 12 hours in the past), and the clock from the "credit card" printer is more than likely correct (6:54am 6/30/03 - credit card company time).
COMMENT #637 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/28/2005 @ 8:04 pm PT...
Fred, Welcome. We've missed you. Welcome to the thread morgue. MOooahhhhahha
What? Am I scaring off the customers? OK, I'll stop.
So, we are good with the interpretation of the staff terminology where she says he "checked in the night before" and "checked in on 6/30" just meaning the previous day?
I can't find much on stun gun, dart, residue, etc. It really matters because access to such a weapon matters.
COMMENT #638 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/28/2005 @ 8:07 pm PT...
Miss P #616
Could Lemme have left earlier than 5:15a.---?
Sure that time is only as good as M.A.
If she is a 'paricipant' then it might be only a prechosen time to keep in keeping with what would look good to investigators.
If M.A. is the disstaff loyal but overwhelmed
co-victim then the time is only as good as her sleepy eyes could be.
As far as the question of Clift being out most of the day 'would she even try to call?'
Sure. What would one do under the same circumstances? Try to get hold of him. How? Call the police--any accidents? Any one taken to a hospital and not identified? Call the office. Not here. Call the boss-Clift. Absolutely!
But she did not talk to Clift, so he was not reachable at the office. Or, she was a participant.
Or, in the evening she was being manipulated by Clift being so attentive, going to do the affidavit thing together, so helpful. Telling her what to write and she would not want to "embarrass" him by putting in the affidavit that Clift did not respond to her calls.
Do you suppose that is the reason for Clift arranging for the affidavits to be taken?
Why do I say that? Because Lemme was gone for only 15 hours--5a. to about 8p. About. If it was just M.A. the cops would have told her to come back the next day.
Clift needed her affidavit to back him up and not open up the question of "Where were you, Clift?"
Why would an innocent guy need an alibi?
Before there was a known crime?
COMMENT #639 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/28/2005 @ 8:35 pm PT...
Cole...my friend...Welcome to the Thread Morgue, so nice to see you here...please...make yourself comfortable...MOoooohOOAhHaHaaaa.
I definitely think either:
1) You've got it all right with the Clift "sweetalk" all the way through the ordeal; OR
2) M.A. is involved.
The report she gave to Spencer on the following day (7/2) goes like this, "I spoke with Mary Ann Lemme....by telephone. She stated Raymond Lemme has had coronary problems and in January the doctors found an additional blockage. He had a stint in his heart and has received angioplasty." Was this just in response to his questions?
7/2 11.45 Mike Bowen of FDOT picks up the effects.
7/3 11.13 M.A. telepones Spencer to say, "the handwriting on the note belonged to her husband."
Slightly less than 24 hours later? Well, guess what, it isn't Lemme's note. The page was placed in there. We all know that now. Why wouldn't Mary Ann?
BTW, we have his driver's licence on the counter but not his wallet (wallet was in the console of the car. Whatever that means. Oh, I know, Clift had to use Lemme's driver's license to check in!!! That's why the license and wallet are not together! Had to be a look-alike person too, eh?!
COMMENT #640 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/28/2005 @ 8:55 pm PT...
Cole, I think you are right about the missing persons report. At every end, M.A. could be innocent, or guilty
But either way, Clift is always guilty.
Why the heck doesn't the PD put the affidavit time on there. And BTW, why is it an "affidavit" and not a "missing persons report?"
COMMENT #641 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistence
said on 3/28/2005 @ 9:07 pm PT...
OK, I just clicked the light off in my morgue office, I'm on eastern time, it's midnight.
Kira, our connections expert, has some fancy work to do with Clift, I've found nothing of interest but I don't have her savvy. Plus the 2 guys in the room above. Oh, and the stun gun. But don't stay up too late
Now I'm clacking through the echoing halls, briefcase in hand, on my way to the elevator which will take me back up to the "Live Thread" level, or the newly arrived victim level that is, then I'm out the door.
On the flip side.
COMMENT #642 [Permalink]
...
Peg C
said on 3/28/2005 @ 9:45 pm PT...
I hate to rain on this parade again, but - DEAD BODIES DO NOT BLEED OUT. This is a basic forensic truism.
COMMENT #643 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/28/2005 @ 10:15 pm PT...
"stent" would heat from electric shock as it is metal ,if stun gun was used and cook surrounding tissue.Would also increase potential for death as rule is something like "Duration-Contact Area-Amps/Voltage" ,better cremate body.Why use a tazer with it wires and all ,stun guns fit in a pocket.
Villait: "due to the fact that he had checked in early on the previous night..."
I asked 3 million post ago if this woman was shown a picture of Lemme to confirm "he" was the one that checked-in .
What was Jed Bush doing on Jun 30th. bet it was something hi-profile same with Feeney and Yang Exec's.
Why does motel have a door opening device "Handy" because people often lock the doors from the outside when they do a "runner" .
feeling like a dog chasing his tail ....need more input
COMMENT #644 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/29/2005 @ 8:52 am PT...
Peg C., It doesn't really matter when he died or even how he actually died.
The point IS the "freaking bloodless circle" is there in plain sight for anyone who wants to look. This indicates some sort of subduing occurred. Whether the taser led to death, was meant to lead to death, didn't lead to death, or did, is practically irrelevant because the marks are there which would be impossible for Lemme to self-inflict. Some attempt was made to subdue Lemme. The full outcome of those 2 taser attempts is an unknown.
Let us say he's fully alive, tasered twice, and watching helplessly as they slice his arm up and then he bleeds to death. That better?
COMMENT #645 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/29/2005 @ 9:12 am PT...
I think this fits the bill on what those marks are. I imagine the bloodless ring could have been caused by heat melting the fibers of the shirt:
MUST THE PROBES PENETRATE THE BODY TO BE EFFECTIVE?
"No. The electrical current will "jump" up to two inches as long as both probes are attached to clothing or skin. At most, only the 3/8-inch needlepoint will penetrate the skin."
WHAT IS THE BEST-SHOT AT MAXIMUM RANGE?
"As long as the spread of the probes is at least six inches, the AIR TASER will be extremely effective. To ensure that the spread is greater than six inches, the AIR TASER should be fired at a target several feet away. The optimum shot is from seven to ten feet away form the target to achieve maximum effect. At seven to ten feet away - the spread of the probes will be approximately 16 inches, ensuring that the target receives the most efficient T-Wave flow."
link here
And here’s a picture: link here
So, one taser shot (2 prong, six inches apart or slightly less), to the chest, put the body in the tub, slice the arm, tilt him to the right for awhile, set the scene, tilt him back (or, bodies do move on their own after they are dead sometimes.)
COMMENT #646 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/29/2005 @ 10:18 am PT...
FDOT phone numbers, email (from the FDOT website)
Director of Internal Audit, Molly Eichhoefer, 850) 410-5507, email: marlys.eichhoefer@dot.state.fl.us
Director of Investigations, Robert Clift, 850) 410-5814, email: robert.clift@dot.state.fl.us
Annual Reports
2003 (Mentions Georgalis Case, Lemme Death).
2004 (NO mention of Georgalis Case or Lemme Death). Note the higher incidence of cases against high ups in FDOT departments. It looks like they take whistleblowing seriously.
Legal Bulletins
Report that the Georgalis firing required temporary reinstatement of Georgalis (link here).
Comment, Suggestions
I think that an internal investigation of the way the Lemme matter was handled should be suggested to Molly Eichhoefer, perhaps by sending her a copy of the letter from Brad Blog (the one going to the GA Atty Gen).
Don't expect anything to happen though. Some of the aspersions cast here against Clift here without evidence, circumstantial evidence, or good analysis and will turn them off. He is highly regarded in the FDOT.
Some bridges are being burned here without a good reason. Questions about his involvement should have been left to the realm of his following orders. There is zero credible evidence of his personal physical involvement at the scene.
COMMENT #647 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/29/2005 @ 10:42 am PT...
There is a general trend starting here that troubles me.
The following of what "could have happened" has become a frenzy. The following of "what did happen" has become a trickle.
A lead is composed of elements of what did happen. A lead in a case is what you follow. Follow the lead.
All cases have an existing path to the solution. Leads follow those paths. The way of the "could have happened" is to cut new paths where none existed before.
The "could have happened" is a technique of last resort, not first resort. That is because the last thing one wants to do is ignore the paths that already exist.
Creating "could have happened" paths without reason eventually gets to the point where the existing paths are run over by all the could have beens.
And that is what you end up with: what could have been.
The Schiavo debacle is a prime example. The shrill neocons ignore the existing paths:
1) The law that applies
2) the facts that apply
3) authoritive determinations
4) behaviour of the parties
And so we have a million "could have happened" scenarios:
The husband "could have" done the damage to Terri himself
Terri "could have" recovered
Terri "could have" been given treatment
and on and on ad nauseum in emotional disregard of what did happen.
COMMENT #648 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/29/2005 @ 10:57 am PT...
RE: stun gun marks
"Dr. Michael Dobersen, a stun gun expert and coroner for neighboring Arapahoe County [colorado] ..."
his email is: mdobersen@co.arapahoe.co.us
Perhaps he would take a look at the marks to see if he thinks they are stun gun marks?
COMMENT #649 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/29/2005 @ 11:03 am PT...
RE: post #648 The full info on Dr. Dobersen is:
Colorado Coroner's Association
Dr. Michael Dobersen, President
Office of the Arapahoe County Coroner
13101 Broncos Parkway
Centennial, CO 80112
(720) 874-3625
Fax - (720) 874-3627
E-mail - mdobersen@co.arapahoe.co.us
COMMENT #650 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/29/2005 @ 12:10 pm PT...
Miss Persistent #612
"Dredd #601. Many of the most factual observations have just recently surfaced (e.g., the bloodless circle on his shirt and the two marks) - we have more to go. Not sure if we can harness our imaginations just thus and so
" (bold and italics added)
I have posted some references to experts in stun gun investigations. I hope expert references will not offend you.
I note that the "most factual observations" you mention entail comparing marks on JonBenet's body to marks on Lemme's shirt.
The use of the phrase "most factual observations" is quite loose.
You need some expert opinion to even engage in such wild speculation. You don't even know the kind of material the shirt is made of for certain, the quantity of water in that material at the relevant time, and what marks are made on various materials at various degrees of wetness, if any, by stun guns.
The "most factual observations" set forth by the recent posts only shows that stun guns can make marks on skin.
The marks taking this thread off on tangents are about marks on unknown shirt material, not on skin.
And that without a bona fide discussion of why or how an unknown shirt material condition reacts the same as skin does.
COMMENT #651 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/29/2005 @ 12:29 pm PT...
Dredd, with ALL due respect, everybody has their strengths and weaknesses: Yours is sequential and verbal mine is visual and spatial. What could have happened is my first resort. What "did happen" was how VPD reached their conclusions.
I personally discovered the 2 marks and bloodless ring;
I personally mentioned the suicide note possibly being pre-written and put in his book; Backed up by MMIIXX observation about the square v. rounded pages;
I personally noted the cloth marks descending on the back wall;
In order to have noticed them, I had to start thinking of "what could have happened" and to use my imagination.
When you go through those creative motions, you begin to see things that should be there but are not, or the other way around. But it requires imagination and a balanced look at allof the possibilites. The film is edited many times.
If just 1 good piece of evidence (there are 3 above) comes from 50 bad ideas, so be it. It's progress. Everybody's, and I mean Everybody's, input has been required - whatever their strengths. It is the collective individuality that makes this work.
If you would trade those 3 observations away (which took some freaking sweat and having to stare at those godawful pictures ad nauseum) in exchange for not every idea being correct, then don't bother to reseach stun guns - afterall - it's a "guess" and "a possibility" and not a fact.
And if you're looking for an immediate answer without any hard work, well, I don't know what to tell you.
Goodness but I'm mad. How can you tell people how to think? How can you give a recipe for problem solving? How can you want to censor ideas?
I'm sorry if you are disturbed by the general trend that seems to be pointing to some certain individuals. But that's where we are at. Opportunity. We may pass to something else given more time and discussion, we may not.
COMMENT #652 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/29/2005 @ 1:11 pm PT...
Dredd,
The fact is that there is a bloodless circle on the shirt which is on the body of a man accused of slicing himself to death on the arm. See picture #17 up close. That circle is a fact. How it got there is up for grabs.
If you have access to the pictures, go ahead and send them to your expert. I have people I know looking at them first. I think it's an extremely important thing to do and we each should use whatever contacts we have. That is, if we can't get any actual investigators to help.
It may be easier to get help now that we have some suspicious hard evidence.
COMMENT #653 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/29/2005 @ 2:52 pm PT...
Hey you guys. Well, I've been reading the heated debate. I'll add my 2-cents for whatever it is worth.
I think it's great to examine every angle and person connected - that's what the PD, MD & Forensic Experts should do.
I think we should be careful to always state our research in the "might be or could be" format rather than "accusatory" towards the individuals whose names are connected to this case.
We have to remember this is a public forum and even though I think everyone is just following a possible scenario, when I read what is written sometimes, it sounds like the judge and jury have spoken.
I think we have to be very careful in the wording of our statements here.
That said, I agree with Dredd about the T-shirt material. 100% cotton wouldn't melt. A spot of grease might stop the absorption of blood, but there would have to be a spot of grease that absorbed into the "T" from the outer long-sleeve shirt he had worn over it. No mention of that in the reports, but I doubt they would have looked at that.
COMMENT #654 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 3/29/2005 @ 4:52 pm PT...
How would it go "take your shirt(long sleeve) off so we can stun ya"
Na might be time to move along .
Do Diaries normally have 2 TWO types of pages in the States , they don't here in NZ.
The brother would likely be VERY helpful if all the info that doesn't gel with the suicide verdict was compiled and send to him , he may surport re-openning the case.
We need more input.
COMMENT #655 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/29/2005 @ 4:55 pm PT...
Peg C #642
You are right -'dead bodies do not bleed out'....But.
But blood will flow from an arm vein cut (like Lemme had) from the upper part of the body. Not enough to 'bleed out' but enough to show considerable blood in the tub along side the left side of the body. Enough, perhaps to fool a VDP investigator who rarely sees this.
That is why ALL the fluid should have been collected from the tub and spun down to collect the red cells-then weighed. I do not believe this was done.
Additionally, if Lemme was 'non combative and totally complient' for some reason (sedated etc) then the cut could have been made while he was alive and the pool of blood would be increased.
And the investigator should have made note of the constituancy of the pool of blood--clotted? or not!!!
COMMENT #656 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/29/2005 @ 5:25 pm PT...
additional to #655
The cut on Lemme's arm would not be lethal on its own -ever-and a large quantity of blood loss would take time. So the VPD should have produced proof of a loss of blood sufficient to prove the cause of death. And the blood was ALL there in the tub!
Miss P #651
Agreed, the Leon County affidavits should be timed, both of them. Perhaps they were taken only as a courtesy to the FDOT, a missing persons report might require 24 hrs of missing.
Another feature for you to ponder, Miss P and put your visual and spatial strenghts to work is this:
Most tubs have a slope end for comfort of reclining and a more upright end. The turn on valves, spout etc are in the upright end. To my eye Lemme seems to be propped up against the upright end (or he would slide down). That would be very uncomfortable, but would allow for more blood flow for loss by gravity. That would be the chosen position by suicide makers, not by a guy who has a lot of time to languish in his own suicide.
But a guy who has to get back to Florida by 1p.m. does not have all that much time to burn.
What do you think?
COMMENT #657 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/29/2005 @ 5:26 pm PT...
We all want to know what DID happen at the motel on June 30/July 1, 2003. Toward that end it's O.K. to speculate on what MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED, in the same sense that it's O.K. to look for something we've lost in the places where we MIGHT HAVE LEFT IT. Even idle speculation might produce a good idea or two. No harm in any of it.
In the final analysis, though, none of us is going to be conducting the probe. If, as a first priority, we want justice done, let's focus on persuading those in a position of authority to investigate...without fear, without partisanship, without prejudgments.
COMMENT #658 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/29/2005 @ 5:35 pm PT...
If this was a professional hit - the PA would have brought along an injectible tranq. If a stun-gun was used, it was to immobilize the victim before administering the shot. Then the rest of the "suicide" was performed.
If this is the scenario, the note had to be written by someone else unless they had Lemme "over a barrel" by threatening his family. I say that because the handwriting on the note doesn't seem indicative of someone feeling hoplessly stressed nor someone who has just been hit with a stun gun or giving a tranq.
The writing doesn't seem to indicate someone who is extremely depressed, despondent and suicidal nor someone whose family is being threatened unless he submits to being murdered.
I wish Brad could get hi-res copies of the crime scene photos. That would help us see the details. Right now, the quality is no good for enlarging.
COMMENT #659 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/29/2005 @ 5:46 pm PT...
Kira #658
If this was a professional hit--------they would have dumped him somewhere, to be found, maybe, at a later date. Missing!
Someone needed this to be a suicide.
COMMENT #660 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/29/2005 @ 5:54 pm PT...
Cole - lots of professional hits are made to look like suicide.
COMMENT #661 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/29/2005 @ 6:14 pm PT...
Hey Cole, well, this means I have to go back and look at the pictures...be back in a minute.
Ok, if you look at picturea #14 and #15 you see the tub widening toward Lemmes back making the part of the tub behind his back appear to be the rounded side. Since there is no bath spout near his head, and a high shelf at the part of the tub above his feet (soap shelf?), I would guess his back is on the "luxurios" end.
But he definitely looks propped up. The blood stain shows gravity toward his right side as if he'd been laying on his right side for a time, and after a possible repositioning toward normalcy (just a guess) his left arm looks rather wedged, but we don't have all the pictures.
And on the shelf by his right arm looks to be blood mixed with water.
There are still a lot of loose ends, for example MMIIXX and dress shirt example. These types of questions are exactly what get the thinking juices going. Not sure that there are not any marks on the shirt but no way to tell. Will try to imagine how that could've worked.
The shoes. If you're standing in the vanity area, with the heel of each shoe in your hand (who picks up their shoes by the toe), facing the exit door of the room, the Lefty puts the shoes down on the left of the entry way.
Midway into Curtis' book, it seems pretty "smooth" the way they treat whistle blowers at FDOT. This includes Clint Curtis - he was fired along with Mavis.
Considering Clift not involved would be a grave oversight, given his opportunity. Besides, Clift was adamant about the suicide and depression whereas the brother is not. And neither are the rest of us. It was also Clift's job to assign specific people to specific cases.
Here's a quote from Mavis in Curtis' book: "Prior to May 2001, I really had no concept of the word 'retaliation.' Believe me, I can now describe it in great detail. I remained anonymous for about two weeks. At that time, the Inspector General decided that the illegal alien and wiretapping, fradulent invoices, sale of non-existent hardware, political fixing of contracts and political pressure reported by Clint and me was not worth of investigation. Rather, since I had filed a complaint, there was something wrong with me." "At the specific request of Mr. Tom Feeney, Speaker of the House, both Rich Kalls and Ned Hale jointly signed a glowing letter of recommendation (and attempting to discredit me) on behalf of Wong (Yang) Enterprises.
So who was Inspector General in 2001? Had Jose Abreu just been appointed by Jeb then?
COMMENT #662 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/29/2005 @ 6:27 pm PT...
Ewww, uck! Feeney is so-o-o slimey.
Well, as of Oct. 31, 2001, IG of FDOT was Cecil Bragg. Did Abreu take Bragg's place?
COMMENT #663 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/29/2005 @ 6:28 pm PT...
Kira #653, I'm sorry, I missed the fact that the shirt was 100% cotton. My apologies.
Anyone: Re-create a bloodless circle on a shirt otherwise covered with blood. Tell me how it's done and I can just skip over trying to figure it out.
COMMENT #664 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/29/2005 @ 6:37 pm PT...
Miss P. - Hey, I don't know the shirt was 100% cotton. It might have been a poly-cotton blend. Who knows? Maybe the heat of a stun gun could cause skin oils to absorb into the shirt fibers.
Also, Bragg is still IG.
COMMENT #665 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/29/2005 @ 6:37 pm PT...
Another Clift quote:
"Even after the event [of my dog Emily being poisoned], my attorney said I should not have been rude to the other attorney. I have no idea why in America we let these individuals snarl and growl at us and treat us disrespectfully and yet we are supposed to treat them friendly and respectfully. In my opinion, an attorney or any other occupation, that acts so overtly disrespectful needs to be provided with a good kick in the tail until they learn better manners. Their law degree does not elevate them above the standards of common decency. It is only a license to practice law..."
Now, back to the case.
COMMENT #666 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/29/2005 @ 7:12 pm PT...
If Clint reads this blog, Clint I promise I am not giving away your whole book. I recommend that everyone pick up a copy. Here is an excerpt:
Lemme had visited Clint at the store in which Clint was stocking shelves, after having been turned down for many jobs.
"I asked him if he wanted me to come in and he quickly informed me that this was an unofficial investigation. DOT was formally doing nothing. The investigation had been completedly covered up and the direction had come from the Governor's mansion."
Lemme: This is completely off the record. We have been getting pressure from the top to cover up the investigtion. I need you to be completely honest with me about anything I ask. I will do my best to make sure we uncover the truth. You can believe that. I am going to see this through but I have to do this while appearing to go along with the cover-up. It will give me access to dicover exactly what is going on and how far up the problem exists."
Clint: How do I know I can trust you? So far anything I have told FDOT has been a waste of my time.
Lemme: Like I said, officially anything you say will be ignored. By working with me I can develop a case that can't be ignored. Who do you think leaked the information to the Daytona Beach News Journal? I thought that would be enough to make DOT do the right thing and start the investigation against Wong [Yang]. I even requested the contract be officially audited. Instead, the pressure from the top became even more intense."
Later:
Lemke [Lemme] visited me many times. Each time he alluded to being a little closer to cracking the case. The final visit Lenke was about as animated as I had ever seen him. He actually seemed happy...he was almost giddy. Once he got a few more things tied together he would blow the whole case wide open. Just keep my ears open, he said, "you'll be amazed by what you hear." "Just wait and listen. You will be shocked."
Curtis: I waited and listened. I was shocked. This gun fancier...has supposedly committed suicide by cutting his wrists... Lemme's secretary had deprived him of getting his suicide from being fully investigated."
Indeed, Cecil Bragg was the Inspector General at the time, and most unwilling to pursue any investigation of Yang.
COMMENT #667 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/29/2005 @ 7:24 pm PT...
Curtis had described Lemme originally as being wholly against Mavis and going along with the corrupt flow and maybe having been bought but perhaps not liking it. Apparently, Lemme had been specifically assigned to to discredit Mavis. (That would likely have come from Clift who assigned the cases.)
You know, the above sounds kind of fishy on Lemme's part. It's not impossible that Lemme was being paid by Yang to try to get all the information that Curtis had. Maybe, once he did and reported it to Yang, they exterminated Lemme.
That's a wild thought just to be considered, however briefly.
COMMENT #668 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/29/2005 @ 7:39 pm PT...
BTW, I had a lot of fun at our little "Halloween Party" in the thread morgue last night. I guess ya have to have some humor to mix in with the serioisness of all this.
Sorry Kira that I left you with your office light on with a pile of assignments
That's just how my film was going at the moment - one burning light left in the morgue by the dedicated researcher burning the candle...
I've been looking into tasers and stun guns all day. I still don't see any research about a residue. But it does look like the size of the "probes" may match the size of the marks anyway. The ideal seems to be far enough away that the two probes are 16in or so apart when they hit. That's at a distance of 7-10 feet with the probes ending up one above the other. But, maybe if youre closer and holding the gun sideways the two probes would end up one above the other and not side by side.
We still have to figure out that "outer shirt" deal...
COMMENT #669 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/29/2005 @ 7:44 pm PT...
Whoops, I meant if you hold the gun sideways the two probes would end up side by side and not one above the other:)
COMMENT #670 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/29/2005 @ 7:57 pm PT...
Kira #660
I realize that many 'hits' are proffesional suicide events---
This one has a special flavor which had a pre-event build up by, if I am getting the correct info from this thread, Clift. That name again.
Miss P this is the first I read of Curtis having a number of meetings with Lemme. Is it possible to find out from Curtis if he had any impression from Lemme that he was 'depressed'-'hurting'-'suicidal'?
COMMENT #671 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/29/2005 @ 8:02 pm PT...
I caught that I had too many f's in the above--so I tried to get the f out of there and instead I lost
my s.
sorry.
COMMENT #672 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/29/2005 @ 8:19 pm PT...
Cole, this is the first I know of any of this too.
Curtis doesn't say anything about an abrupt negative change in attitude except that at first Lemme seemed quite the "stoned faced" investigator. Then perhaps that he was having a change of heart over the corruption. Then, "Lemme visted me many times. Each time he alluded to being a little closer to cracking the case. The final visit Lemme was about as animated as I had ever seen him. He actually seemed happy. I was frightened that his face would actually crack. While he would never elaborate on the exact details of his information he told me I would soon be very happy with the results. He was almost giddy. He stated that the coverup came from as high up as I could imagine and he had the proof. Once he got a few more things tied together he would blow the whole case wide open. Just keep my ears open he said, you'll be amazed by what you hear."
COMMENT #673 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/29/2005 @ 8:22 pm PT...
Miss P
back to #661
Perhaps I am on the wrong end but any tub spout would be lower down at about his mid back.
I didn't notice any shelf higher up---if that is a soap dish it would be there for the shower. And the shower would be in line with the tub spout below.
In that case Lemme would be propped up against the hardware. A position no one would choose.
Any way to find out which end is which? or where?
COMMENT #674 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/29/2005 @ 8:33 pm PT...
Do people with heart problems ever wear circular patches on their chests, right on their hearts?
COMMENT #675 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/29/2005 @ 8:44 pm PT...
Miss P
At #666
Did I read that right? (I have trouble reading some times)---Curtis called Lemme a gun fancier?
No self respecting gun nut would off himself with two diddly razor cuts on his arm. That would be without honor or dignity.
This 'perfect' suicide has the stench of a classic muck up.
COMMENT #676 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/29/2005 @ 8:48 pm PT...
Miss P. (OMG) #666 - Didn't you get that number last thread, too??? Woo-ooo-ooo Mwahahaha! (A loud clap of thunder echoed through the empty morgue - the candle flickered - and suddenly went out. It was totally dark.(..to be continued)
"Lemme's secretary had deprived him of getting his suicide from being fully investigated."
Huh? What's this about? More info please
Cole #670
Ifffff not 1 thing, It'sssss another
COMMENT #677 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/29/2005 @ 8:49 pm PT...
circular patches---not that size.
there are circular patches about that size used for defibrillator contacts
COMMENT #678 [Permalink]
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Peggy
said on 3/29/2005 @ 8:51 pm PT...
Hi, everyone - I haven't caught up (at #639) but I was thinking that perhaps the receipts are different because one is a "plant" to try and suggest it was Lemme who made the original reservation/check-in on Sunday??? Perhaps this is way off. Or may it was left by mistake by the murderer who obtained it at a different motel???? I'll go back to reading...
COMMENT #679 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/29/2005 @ 8:52 pm PT...
Ok Cole, you sent me on a field trip! Yay! Ok, I have 4 bathrooms but only 1 with a bathtub. The faucet side indeed has wider tub sides than the back part. But then, my faucet here is mounted on the tiles above the tub by 5 or so inches - which would be shoulder height for Lemme?
But then, the watery blood on the lower shelf is on the side nearest his shoulders... hmmm...don't know!
COMMENT #680 [Permalink]
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Cole...
said on 3/29/2005 @ 9:06 pm PT...
Thanks for the trouble Miss P
But after your other note I went back to the pics and I think you are correct the shelf is for, whatever soap, waterglass, and the shower is on the wall nearest that.
The toilet ---which I had ignored --is also near the west wall. They would have plumbed everything on that end.
COMMENT #681 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/29/2005 @ 9:06 pm PT...
Thanks for the good laughs Kira! Yes I did hit that number last time. I swear! How much further down can I go than the thread morgue! OMG! Well, let's at least have fun while we're here!
Kira, yes that statement about the secretary - it wasn't capitalized but there are one heck of a lot of typos in the book. No more mention of this secretary as yet...except I remember Secretary Barry is in the group photo.
Yep Cole, I know, a gun fancier. I was asking before if anyone knew if he had a gun! (No one has read the book!) Because I had read there is definitely an "honor" system about that type of stuff.
Hi Peggy, I'm sparing everyone the "Thread Morgue" wecome tonight. Instead, the thunder has clapped, the candles have blown out...and we are whispering amongst ourselves.
COMMENT #682 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/29/2005 @ 9:15 pm PT...
Another whoopsie (maybe because it's so dark with the lights all out!)
Kira, it was Lemmes "secrecy" S...E...C...R...E...C...Y...that had "deprived him of getting his suicide from being investigated."
But we know that's not the half of it. It was Georgia law that does not demand an autopsy in a suicide.
COMMENT #683 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/29/2005 @ 9:24 pm PT...
Curtis says,
"Please read the report while looking for what seems out of place. You will probably come across many items that will catch your attention. I am not an expert on suicide investigaion but I have attemped to provide some substance to the questions through research of the case. Following the report are oddities that I found as well as picures taken in the victim's motel room. Also included is an explanation, which demonstrates that the top securtiy lock can be easily locked from outside the room. Try not to get fooled by the security lock being engaged, as I believe the investigators were. Look for things that are out of place or rahter things that are not, but should be."
Yeehaw! We're doing the right thing!
COMMENT #684 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/29/2005 @ 9:25 pm PT...
Well I hate to say this but Curtis may be in danger.
Some small thing he knows may open a large door that 'others' want sealed shut.
COMMENT #685 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/29/2005 @ 9:28 pm PT...
Miss P #682
Right. The perp chose GA. Lowndes Co. Close to Tallahassee & Jeb. Scratch my back & ...
In March of 2002, Shannon Floyd (a 3 yr. veteran with the Valdosta Police Dept.) graduated from a year-long course with the National Firearms Examiner Academy (NFEA), hosted by the ATF. Only 10 students from law enforcement agencies across the country were selected.
Chief Frank Simmons commented that her training would further strengthen their crime scene unit and improve their ability to solve cases.
The course consisted of 4 phases, the 2nd phase was 15 weeks in Washington DC at the ATF Forensic Science Lab for hands on training.
1/21/03
VPD awarded IBIS system (Integrated Ballistics ID System) by the National Integrated Ballistic Info Network (NIBIN). Valued at approx. $450,000 was awarded through a joint program through the ATF.
Chief Frank Simmons credited the expertise of Shannon Floyd who recently completed a firearms examiners training course hosted by ATF and Dr. Howard former firearms examiner with the GBI for the Department receiving the device.
July-August '04 (Valdosta City Public Info Newsletter)
The IBIS system - only 250 nationwide. For state of GA - 3 around Metro Atlanta, 1 in Savannah, 1 in Valdosta
Valdosta serves South GA and North FL. ATF purchased ($425,000) and installed it free in Valdosta and also pays the $4,500/mo. fees for maintenance, upgrades and network admin. That comes to $54,000 per year paid by ATF. Do they pay for all the IBIS systems & associated fees nationwide, or is Valdosta special?
COMMENT #686 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/29/2005 @ 9:31 pm PT...
Curtis knows he's been in danger.
Get this NEWS ALERT:
Following the copies of the documents in Curtis' book (which we've already seen from insider, except Curtis does not appear to have copies of the affidavits!), he says,
"Did you notice the irregularities? Following is a list of the items that bothered me. If you noticed others please write me and I will investigate them also."
We have a contact!!!
COMMENT #687 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/29/2005 @ 9:37 pm PT...
TYPO ALERT!!
My post #685 $425,000 should be $450,000.
Write him ASAP!
COMMENT #688 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/29/2005 @ 9:41 pm PT...
More news, this is all very important.
"Lemme's arrival time by the Valdosta account is impossible. While the ability to make a reservation at this particular motel is difficult, the possibility that Lemme checked in at 6.54a is completely impossible. An automated communication system at the FDOT recorded a voice message from Ray Lemme at 6.15a. The location he was calling from is located at a minimum of 1 hour and 20 minutes away from the motel in Valdosta."
But how do they know the call was from Lemme? I guess someone did call Clift then?
COMMENT #689 [Permalink]
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Cole...
said on 3/29/2005 @ 9:47 pm PT...
Curtis is right. The most obvious thing which is out of place is that Nothing is out of place. Neat neat neat everywhere.
And most neat is the Security lock being engaged.
What for?
If Lemme suicided himself he did not need it. No one would want to come in until the next day---too late.
The 'suicide' maker would want it engaged --to fool investigators --and as suggested it did.
And Lemme would have signed the note. Too compulsive and too organized to not.
COMMENT #690 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/29/2005 @ 9:51 pm PT...
Cole - that's what I meant by "Professional." Somebody who has learned the trade - studied it - did it right - left no (or few) clues. I just don't think the average person would be able to handle it. Maybe be in on it, but not the perp. Sorry - that's how I see it.
The PA could still be a lefty.
COMMENT #691 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/29/2005 @ 10:03 pm PT...
Kira, I don't yet see a contact place for Curtis in his book.
I had better stop quoting from him or he'll be in trouble with his publishers!
I promise to read more tomorrow and summarize any and all relevant points.
But here's a good one. Curtis is talking about the sleeve length of Lemme's shirt and from that deduces that the placement of the blade is too far away for reach.
As a total aside, this leads me to imagine that it was perfectly possible for the killers to have brought in a shirt and hung it up and taken Lemme's away. If the burn marks were on the t-shirt then they surely were on the outer shirt - right MMIIXX? Voila.
P.S. And just to give you a picture of room 132, it looks like it's located in the back of the motel, out of sight of office etc., and just a very narrow driveway along the rooms separates it from a thick woods. There are some trails from that parking lot to a truck rest stop but the nearest trail is 50ft away.
Blowing out the candle for the night troopers!
Get the book! It's got other stuff it seems we may want to think about. Just for example, you know this new Civil Service "performance review" system? Well, there's a rather diabolical idea behind that.
COMMENT #692 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/29/2005 @ 10:03 pm PT...
Miss P #688
This is not new. It is only how it is interpreted.
Another posting, earlier, stated that the time of call to Clift did not work with time of arrival and sign in at the Fleabag.
Clift is the only one who heard the message left by the caller---and he has repeatedly said it was Lemme.
The call at 6:15 (6:20) could only be helpful to one person-------------who could use the call to place himself at the office, in Florida, hours away from Georgia-----Clift.
Clift called Clift, it was his alibi and there could be no slipup.
COMMENT #693 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/29/2005 @ 10:11 pm PT...
Oh Cole, that's what you meant earlier! I see. OK, then let's say Clift made the call 1 hr 20 min away from Valdosta. Was he on his way back? Or on the way there? I'm assuming the "automated" part is where they got the number from? Remember, we know the person had help so there are assistants available.
Kira, PA is definitely a lefty.
COMMENT #694 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/29/2005 @ 10:20 pm PT...
Ok, this is killing me. One more observation by Curtis and then I must go to sleep:
"I rented rooms at the motel and was never asked for identification. I could easily have checked in as John Smith and no one would have quetioned it."
COMMENT #695 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/29/2005 @ 10:27 pm PT...
Miss P., contact Brad. He's been in contact with him and could forward your contact info to Curtis or whatever.
Nighty-night.
COMMENT #696 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/29/2005 @ 11:05 pm PT...
Miss P. #694
"I rented rooms at the motel and was never asked for identification. I could easily have checked in as John Smith and no one would have quetioned it."
Um - isn't that standard practice for any fleabag, hot pillow joint? But the fact that C. checked it out is good - he documented that piece of evidence.
COMMENT #697 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/30/2005 @ 6:21 am PT...
For forensic info:
Valdosta July 1, 2003 Weather - 79 degrees at 8 a.m.
COMMENT #698 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/30/2005 @ 9:51 am PT...
With all this "evidence" there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the Attorney General, FDOT, FBI, and everyone else will be tripping over themselves to be the first to get all the glory by reopening the case based upon this overwhelming "evidence".
If you really want to know what evidence is, read the rules of evidence. Nothing is evidence unless and until it is admitted "into evidence" by the trial judge.
Even when admitted it does not mean that it will persuade the trier of fact (e.g. jury).
All the rest is potential evidence. We have a lot of potential evidence. The term is used very loosly here.
And all I "know" is what other people have said. I have no first hand "knowledge", and neither does anyone else. Getting mad over whose imagination is best is silly.
What potential evidence would be admissible, or not, and why? I don't think anyone really cares.
If it doesn't matter, then we should just admit this is a video game and have some fun. And leave real people out of it. One can get in trouble by accusing real people of crimes without evidence. Real trouble.
COMMENT #699 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/30/2005 @ 10:05 am PT...
RE: Evidence
Here is a link to the Federal Rules of Evidence.
One important thing to learn is the meaning of hearsay ("he said", "she said") and why it is not generally competent, admissible evidence.
In any medical inquest rules of evidence come into play and govern what is admissible evidence.
"What happened" is determined by competent, admissible evidence. "What could have happened" is generally irrelevant and will not generally hold water.
Before anything can come into evidence there must be a "foundation laid". Once that happens, potential evidence can be offered by a litigant and then be admitted or rejected by the trial judge.
The rest is just a video game.
COMMENT #700 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/30/2005 @ 10:07 am PT...
Wow Fred! Good visuals - you must be a film maker on the side!
I've just finished Curtis' book (306p double spaced) in less that 24 hours. Let's see if we can weave some of his obervations in. Here is a summary:
1) If Lemme had remained in FL he would have had a mandatory autopsy;
2) To get to the motel, hundreds of others are passed including 2 right by the phone booth;
3) Single edge blades available at the store where the phone booth was; (but we are thinking Clift was there). No blades purchased. No double edge blades at any C-store between I-10 and 19 and the fleabag.
4) If Lemme made the reservtion how'd he get the number, they aren't listed in their national registry system.
5) Wife says he was home 6/29 so he didn't do it in person; So where was the reservation made from.
6) If he'd died before 8.30a 6/30 he'd have been dead over 29 hours. Curtis says rigor sets in between 6-24 hrs. (Although I had read it could be up to 36)
7) Some blood was found in liquid form. Curtis' research says that blood would have been fully clotted or dry within 10 hrs given no a/c, etc.
8) The only time that the rigor and the blood fit together is with a death between 3am and 7am on 7/1.
9) Note would have said, I love you and be written to someone. Resigned to die, no mention of daughter.
10) Clear he was going to a meeting, maybe for the final pieces of his case. Killers didn't take pad and manilla out perhaps because they were unsure if anyone had seen him go in with them.
*11) Razor blade would have been placed on the right edge. Measurements show right hand placing it that far away on the left is not credible.
*12) His research shows that most suicide instruments are found within inches of the hand using the instrument.
*13) Writing book not tilted at 70 degree angle the way we write. Everything on desk perfectly straight. Except chair. Chair pulled out to create illusion as they were straightening up and to simulate that was where the note was written.
14) If you actually go to the fleabag you would notice that the shoes are actually in the way of the walking path and not near where he would have sat to take them off.
15) Room appears freshly clean.
16) Why place towel if he was in stocking feet no need to wory about emerging with wet feet;
17) Not a single drop of blood on floor even though report said spurts 30 in away on wall/door.
**18) Tourniquets are generally just loosened. Those who have attempted this type of suicide have reported that it is extremely painful. When the tourniquet is released, blood rushes from the wound, victim experiences nausea, followed by extreme pain. As blood leaves the vicim continues to get more light headed and feels the room is freezing cold. Tourniquets are not removed because it hurts too much and victim is no longer concerned with such small details. Generally, death can take an hour or more.
**19) The wall behind the bathroom door was smashed in where the door knob was (but could have been a different guest at a different time). Would take a very big person to do that.
20) Tub was damaged - there were several long dig marks on the right side near the drain. Maybe his shoes were on at first.
***21) Witnesses decribe 2 men outside. If it had been a random drug deal they wouldn't have been so far from the paths that lead to the truck parking area. Those paths were over 40ft away from 132.
22) These two men match the description of 2 men Curtis see's later at his Dollar Store job. From Curtis description of their behavior these guys were out to get him.
Back to me (Miss P). One thing I thought of was that there was a white man seen too. Maybe when Clift called himself from the Pay Fast he was picking up money to pay the 2 PA's?
After reading this book, as a general rule of thumb and quite an overgeneralization on my part it seems that anyone still working at FDOT who does not have some sort of legal protection for still being there, is a mean, crooked and inhuman. Once I can match up the fake names that Curtis uses we'll have more. Don't think for one minute that Clift could not have been involved.
COMMENT #701 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/30/2005 @ 10:35 am PT...
Attorney: VPD, What factors did you use to base your suicide decision on ?
VPD: That the door latch was in the lock position and could not be latched from the outside, the suicide note, and the body with cut marks with a razor blade next to it.
Attorney: I'd like to enter these photos as exhibit A.
Attorney: And I'd like to call Clint Curtis to the stand to demonstrate the the door is easily locked from the outside in under one minute.
Demonstration is successful.
Attorney: VPD, do you still believe that the door could not be latched from the outside?
VPD: No sir.
Attorney: Ok, then. Neither do we, but let's move on. VPD, please take a look at these pictures of the suicide note on the desk.
VPD. Ok.
Attorney: Now, looking at the notebook on which the suicide note was written, can you tell if this is the type of notebook that has those thingies where you can open and close to add or remove paper when needed?
VPD. Yes it appears to be a refillable kind of notebook.
Attorney. Ok, thank you. Can you also tell me - from looking at the picture - whether the note paper on which the victim wrote his message has square edges or round edges.
VPD. It looks like the note has round edges.
Attorney: Thank you. Now look at the pages to the left of the note, and the pages that are visible at the top of the picture just under the note. Can you tell me whether the other pages have round or square edges?
VPD: It appears as if the other paper has square edges, including the pages just after the note.
Attorney: Thank you. So in your professional opinion, given these photographs of the scene that you took, that it would have been possible to open the thingies and place that suicide note in the book as opposed to writing that note then and there?
VPD. It looks possible.
Attorney: Thank you. Now, let's go back to the bathroom scene. I assume that since you investigated the body, that you noticed these 2 black marks on the shirt?
VPD: No I didn't.
Attorney: Well, did you at least notice that there is a "freaking bloodless ring" surrounding one of the marks and shaped in a perfect circle?
VPD. No, I didn't.
Attorney: WERE YOU EVEN THERE???!!!
VPD: SOBS, IT IT IT, I I I had to destroy the pictures because I'm a ballistics expert and I failed to notice those marks.
Attorney: Oh for goodness sake. Shape up. This isn't a Perry Mason trial!! Now then. In your experience, can you tell me whether or not it appears that the victim was right or left handed given that the cut is on the left hand.
VPD: I would deduce that the victim is right handed.
Attorney: Fine. Now, can you tell me, in your experience, do most slicing suicide victims slice their left arm with their right hand and then scootch forward so that they can place the razor blade pretty far away from themselves on the opposite side of the tub from their right hand.
VPD: Uh, well, actually I have no experience so I couldn't really say. But is sure seems odd now that I think about it doesn't it?
Attorney: Man. Judge? I'd like to call my forensic experts to the stand if it pleases the court?
Judge: Recess, we will reconvene at a later time.
COMMENT #702 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/30/2005 @ 12:04 pm PT...
Miss Persistent #702 That is a video game.
Now back to reality a moment.
How do you propose, under Georgia law, to have the coroner's inquest commenced in the first place?
The first thing that happens is the first thing, not the twenty-seventh ...
COMMENT #703 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/30/2005 @ 12:54 pm PT...
Food for thought:
Lemme agrees to "suicide" himself to spare the life of his wife and daughter (a choice given to him by the ProA). Part of the agreement (to make the choice easier for Lemme) is that Lemme can take an injection to knock him out before the ProA cuts Lemme's arm. That way, he tells Lemme, "You won't suffer. Deal?" Deal.
After he gives Lemme a few minutes to write a "suicide note" to his wife, he has Lemme place all his posessions on the vanity counter. In a feeble attempt to place a message to detectives, he places his comb on top of his money clip, and stops his watch before he places it down on the counter. He then is told to get into the bath tub.
The ProA injects Lemme, in little over a minute he passes out. He cuts Lemme's arm while covering it with a wash cloth (to prevent splatter). He watches the sleeping Lemme bleed in the tub for a while, walks out into the main room, removes his bloody gloves (he has a few pairs) and maybe flips on the TV to help pass the time, or make a cell phone call...
Lemme partly wakes up to himself bleeding, and in a groggy state attempts to stop the bleeding (thinking the ProA is now gone) with his belt. The ProA hears some noise from the bathroom and goes to see what's happening. He sees Lemme actually try to stand up and in the process smears blood up high in the shower with the washcloth (now soaked with blood).
"God damn it!", the ProA says, as he scrambles to put on new gloves and pulls out a taser gun (he doesn't feel like fighting with a bloody man) and tasers Lemme who is facing him. Lemme luckily does a small spin and falls down on his ass back in the sitting position.
He gives Lemme another injection, removes the tasers, places the washcloth on the side of the tub, and removes the now blood covered belt and drops it on the towel. He positions the arm so the blood is squirting on to Lemme's side and never notices that the blood isn't drawing into a 2 inch circle around the right taser mark on the shirt.
He watches Lemme for the next 15 minutes until he's dead. He removes his latex gloves, places them in his pocket and loops a fishing line (pre cut) around the door latch. He pulls the latch shut just as he is closing the door, let's go of one end of the line as it unravels from the latch and shuts the door.
Mission accomplished.
COMMENT #704 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/30/2005 @ 1:23 pm PT...
How To Open A Medical Inquest In Georgia
Georgia Code Section 45-16-24(c) states "Whenever an affidavit is made and filed with a court having criminal jurisdiction attesting that a person came to his death by foul play, that court may interrogate and examine witnesses, if any exist, as to the necessity of a medical examiner´s inquiry. Should the court decide that a medical examiner´s inquiry is essential to the ends of justice, such inquiry shall be ordered by that court" (italics and bold added).
Therefore:
1) A case must be filed in the superior court of the county Lemme was found dead in, naming the Coroner, VPD, and any other necessary parties, as DEFENDANTS;
a) the Attorney General and/or the county's legal office where the county's legal officer practices must be served with a copy of the complaint; b) the coroner's office should be served with a copy of the complaint; c) the VPD should be served with a copy of the complaint; and d) any other necessary parties should be served with a copy of the complaint;
2) The affidavits must be given according to Georgia law for affidavits, and must be provided by:
a) a forensics stun gun expert, such as the one I mentioned in #649, who must testify that the marks on the shirt Lemme was wearing is, in his or her expert opinion, caused by a stun gun;
b) a relevant officer of the VPD testifying (attaching the case file documents) that no stun gun was found inside room 132;
c) a locksmith expert who can testify as to the liklihood of the nite latch on room 132 being locked from the outside, and based upon his expert opinion it could be done relatively easily;
d) a suicide expert who would testify as to the unusual type of method allegedly used (brute force slash) by Lemme, and that based upon his or her expert opinion, this is highly unusual;
e) a medical examiner or coroner type expert who could testify that it is unusual for an investigation in a case like this to last only one day, and that in his or her expert opinion it was done negligently;
f) the same officer, mentioned in b) above, testifying that the documents from the motel as to the timeline of check-in and check-out have time-stamp problems, and do not present a valid timeline;
g) an FDOT employee, attaching FDOT documents, showing that Lemme had been the target of a murder plot previously, and was working on a case involving contracts involving the FDOT;
h) a criminal investigator expert in suicide notes stating that in his or her expert opinion, that the alleged suicide note paper is foreign to the notebook it was allegedly found in;
3) A motion for a hearing would be requested, based upon the above papers, the opposing parties would file opposing papers, which would include:
a) a forensics stun gun expert testifying that the marks on the shirt Lemme was wearing is, in his or her expert opinion, NOT caused by a stun gun;
b) a locksmith expert testifying as that the nite latch on room 132 is not easily locked nor unlocked from the outside, and based upon his expert opinion it could NOT be done easily except by a practiced expert, and based on his or her expert opinion, it was not locked from the outside;
c) a suicide expert testifying that the method used (brute force slash) by Lemme, is NOT that unusual and that it happens hundreds of times a year in the US and elsewhere;
d) a medical examiner or coroner type expert testifying that a lot of cases like the present case as so clear and convincing that they can be solved in one day, and are many times each year;
e) the same officer, mentioned in b) above, testifying that the documents from the motel as to the timeline of check-in and check-out have time-stamp problems that are irrelevant and are easily resolved;
f) an FDOT employee, attaching FDOT documents, showing that Lemme had been the target of a murder plot previously, but that person was prosecuted and Lemme was not working on any valid FDOT investigations involving Georgia because the FDOT has no jurisdiction in Georgia;
g) a criminal investigator expert in suicide notes stating that in his or her expert opinion, that the alleged suicide note paper is not unusual because people committing suicide are not behaving normal and tend to do strange things;
h) an argument that the statute of limitations had run and that the plaintiffs have no standing to bring such an action;
4) the court would hold a hearing where the experts would testify under oath, and would be cross-examined.
5) the court would issue Findings of Fact, and Conclusions of Law;
6) the court would GRANT or DENY the coroner's inquest;
7) the losing party could appeal.
COMMENT #705 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/30/2005 @ 2:10 pm PT...
Now all you need is a LEGAL SYSTEM that works for "the people".
COMMENT #706 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/30/2005 @ 2:20 pm PT...
Dredd, your outline is marvelous. Who pays for the attorney and witnesses? And what are the possible outcomes should an inquest be granted?
COMMENT #707 [Permalink]
...
Peggy
said on 3/30/2005 @ 4:44 pm PT...
Hey, everyone! Kestrel pointed out a fascinating article HERE
COMMENT #708 [Permalink]
...
Peggy
said on 3/30/2005 @ 4:47 pm PT...
COMMENT #709 [Permalink]
...
Peggy
said on 3/30/2005 @ 5:07 pm PT...
You guys are great!
Now, after you read the article HERE, we could postulate:
Clift, FDOT, Valdosta PD have PRETENDED to close the case on Lemme(??) in order to conduct an investigation without interference from those very concerned persons "all the way at the top (of the DUNG HEAP)"(??) Wishful thinking??
COMMENT #710 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/30/2005 @ 5:18 pm PT...
That one kept me up all night. I watched the film. Did you?
COMMENT #711 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/30/2005 @ 5:20 pm PT...
Peggy, Nyet, not getting the link. Try again? Or tell us which post the Kestrel link is?
COMMENT #712 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/30/2005 @ 5:54 pm PT...
Smuggling in Valdosta
About 3/4 down page.
It's a long article that spans many years & there aren't enough references for me - but the movie is scary and even more so if it's all true.
Dung heap is too good for these criminals.
COMMENT #713 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/30/2005 @ 9:43 pm PT...
Dredd #693
Interesting outline-but I did not know that there was a statute of limitaions for homicide?
It seems to me that much of the 'legal approach' would revolve around the items 2d and 3c in the following terms:
A. Is the term 'bruit force trauma' properly used to describe a wound area described as two 1 inch incisions which cut a single vein in the upper arm?
Would not 'careful incision' be more descriptive?
B. Would a wound of this nature result in blood loss of sufficient volumn to cause death?
C. How long would this single vein have to bleed to cause death?
D. Comparing the Lemme wound to hundreds if not thousands of traumatic injury cases i.e. auto accident, where multiple wound injury may occur, resulting in large volume of blood loss but does not result in death of the injured does it seem conceivable that the Lemme wound was more severe and why?
I guess what I am aiming at here is this: Does the med. examiner/coroner decision meet the Standard of Practice in this case? Is there a Standard of Practice?
Could this be an approach to gain a Medical Inquest? Avoid the cross talk for now.
What bothers me is getting 'experts' to talk on narrow issues which would cancel out the broader question (s).
COMMENT #714 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/30/2005 @ 10:52 pm PT...
Any medical people out there.
The area that was cut is called the "cubital tunnel" according to the ME.This area also has the "ulna nerve" running in a groove in the area ,my question is ,would cutting this ulna nerve result in disableing the arm?
This is the only reason I could imagine for cutting here.
COMMENT #715 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/31/2005 @ 2:06 am PT...
For Kira: Brad e-mailed me to the effect that he returned the letter to you with a few suggestions, and now considers it ready for prime time.
Please e-mail me at rmill6126@earthlink.net. I'll reply with my home address, and you if wish you can snail-mail me a copy. I'll make copies, sign them "Robert L. Mills and Hundreds of Concerned Citizens," and mail it to all the appropriate parties. Or, you could do the same yourself.
COMMENT #716 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/31/2005 @ 2:29 am PT...
For Dredd: My presumption is that any Attorney General or U.S. Representative who agrees to pursue our issues would be in a position to act according to the guidelines you have laid out. Likewise, if a major newspaper or TV network took up the cause ("60 Minutes" comes to mind), the process should take care of itself afterward.
I agree we shouldn't accuse individuals of crimes, willy-nilly. But why, as citizens, must we prepare the case as if we were a grand jury or a prosecutor? Why must we concern ourselves with legal distinctions between actual evidence and potential evidence? I don't question your facts, but it seems to me there's a huge difference between playing a video game and presenting a case (potential evidence) to people in authority whom we're asking to take action.
Those people can worry about the legalities, as far as I'm concerned. We're the messengers, not the prosecutors. Speaking only for myself, I'm not afraid to say that people inside the Florida D.O.T. had the motive, means, and opportunity to arrange the murder of Raymond Camillo Lemme...but that doesn't put me in a position to handle the case.
COMMENT #717 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/31/2005 @ 4:10 am PT...
RLM - just tried to send you a copy of the letter, but bounced back with addy unknown. Check your email address to see if something is incorrect.
rmill6126@earthlink.net
Brad had sent a couple of changes to the letter, but one of the statements was not accurate as per the docs. online provided by Insider Mag. I'm still waiting to hear back about the latest revision to make sure my assumption was correct. Unless he has different info, it's good to go.
So - if you see this & then I see your answer before Brad emails me back - take a look at it & make sure everything's ok. If you see any goofs, please let me know!
I'm going to send personal copies to as many officials as I can think of - if anybody has some ideas/suggestions/addresses, please post them.
The letter is in a Word Document format - does everybody work with Word? If not I can send another way if others here want a copy.
TIA
COMMENT #718 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/31/2005 @ 6:28 am PT...
Miss Persistent #706 "Who pays for the attorney and witnesses?".
Initially the plaintiff[s]. However if the plaintiffs loose, the judge could make them also pay for the defendants attorney fees and costs too. If the plaintiffs win the costs could be covered - defendants might have to pay those costs.
There is some risk. That is why a good case should be presented.
"And what are the possible outcomes should an inquest be granted?"
This part makes me mad because they have destroyed the best evidence, the body. So we have no hope of an autopsy, unfortunately.
But it would at least allow what should have been done in the first place, and a complete look at anything left (clothing, diaries, call logs, etc. etc.).
I did the outline just to let us all be aware of the real hurdles ... not to turn anyone off, but to form a realistic focus and use what we have to the utmost effect and results. We want justice and we must use the existing machinery.
COMMENT #719 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/31/2005 @ 6:47 am PT...
Cole #713 "I did not know that there was a statute of limitaions for homicide?"
In general terms there isn't. But "murder" is a conclusion and that is what the hearing is about. Was it suicide or was it homicide?
All that needs to be shown is enough evidence (a preponderance) to investigate further. The plaintiffs would not have to prove murder ... just raise enough questions to persuade the judge to order the inquest.
If it turned out to be murder and a suspect was charged, then the statute of limitations would not stop the case.
However, the statute of limitations I was in reference to was to bringing the request for an inquest. I have no reason to believe there is or is not such a limitation. My point is to show they will fight with whatever they can.
Standing (having a valid interest and having been damaged by the alleged negligence) is another issue that would have to be addressed. It could be that a "private attorney general" statute would allow it, or merely being a resident of the county would allow it. It is just another matter to deal with.
And yes the outline text could be improved upon, and I am sure it would be.
COMMENT #720 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/31/2005 @ 6:59 am PT...
RLM #716 I agree with your point that we as citizens have the free speech right to criticize government institutions and government officials working in them.
My point in trying to focus the issues is to make our efforts have maximum effect. If we know where we are going and what is needed in the real world, our efforts should be rewarded more. I want your efforts and the efforts of everyone else here to reap the maximum possible under the circumstances.
No official will take the case unless our efforts to dig up potential evidence are in a direction they know will be useful because the stuff we found is valid and useful.
COMMENT #721 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/31/2005 @ 8:11 am PT...
I think the white man seen with the 2 black men is the bridge between Yang (2 black men similar to the thugs harrassing Curtis due to Yang) and FDOT.
If we can identify the man who knew enough about Lemme's notebook having x number of rings, size of paper, etc., then this allows us to go up from there. That man will talk if pressure is applied.
I'm not saying we can identify that person ourselves but I think we've come pretty close to being able to suggest that someone inside FDOT had to have been involved.
From the sounds of Curtis' book maltreatment of even fellow employees was so commonplace - even Lemme was originally acting like a jerk to Mavis. A real jerk.
Anyway, here is a roughly similar case where some Congressmen bought into further investigation in the case. It also points to some of the major hurdles in such a situation - none of which involve following the law.
link here
Excerpt: “But Jesse Trentadue refuses to give up. A 50-year-old trial attorney, the Salt Lake City man has spent the past two years examining his brother's death. His quest has won some powerful allies, from the chief medical examiner of Oklahoma to U.S. Sen. Diane Feinstein, D-Calif.
"The matter also attracted the interest of Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah. As chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee, he wields legislative oversight of the Justice Department. In a Capitol Hill hearing earlier this year, Hatch assailed Attorney General Janet Reno for what he deemed a torturously slow federal investigation into the case."
"I think this matter deserves to be brought to a fruitful conclusion," Hatch said."
"It looks as though somebody in the Bureau of Prisons-or having relationships with the Bureau of Prisons-murdered the man."
COMMENT #722 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/31/2005 @ 9:18 am PT...
Peggy #708,
I read part of that article last night, but when I went back to check on it this morning, it's gone! Poof.
The article number is 5619, which means it was a very recent article from yesterday. I searched for key words in the article on their website and nothing shows up. Strange.
Even stranger: I googled "decamp" with a domain specification of "bellaciao.org" and 2 articles came up. The 5619 one came up, and of course the article is missing. But when I checked the Google cache, the cache was gone!
The other article it came up with was something different but the cache was still there.
I watched the video - very disturbing.
It was disturbing not only because of the subject matter it revealed, but also because it matches closely with a story of a woman named Cathy O'brien. I thought this lady was nuts, but now...I don't know. Maybe there is something to her story. Check out this website about Cathy's claims.
It's a deep rabbit hole - don't get lost in it.
COMMENT #723 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/31/2005 @ 9:41 am PT...
Dredd #719
Thanks for that.
And I think we all realize once the 'powers that be, in Georgia' closed this case that they have a vested interest and do not want any challange. They do not want to spend any more money and they do not want to be exposed for a job poorly done.
So, unfortunately for those on this thread we have an almot verticle uphill struggle. And as the now late J. Cochran might say, "This glove does not fit" offence.
The finger I was pointing at in #713 is in regard to the choice of death weapon and how it was used.
Bear in mind the Initial Report stated Suicide --'it appeared the victim had cut his wrist' and all following reports falling in line stated Suicide.
The coroner signed it out as 'Sharp force trauma'.
Hard to overcome.
But if we can show that a cut of a single vein in the upper arm would be an unlikely and a poor choice and much too slow for suicide. That a gun lover from Florida would drive all the way to Georgia to
carefully slice himself and then settle in for a day of bleeding to death is not likely.
COMMENT #724 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/31/2005 @ 9:47 am PT...
Can or should we add this to our mailing list for the letter?
Office
US Human Rights Network
659 Auburn Ave NE, Unit 205
Atlanta, GA 30312
Telephone: 404-588-9761
Fax: 404-588-9763
Mailing Address
US Human Rights Network
P.O. Box 5869
Atlanta, GA 30307
US Human Rights Network
COMMENT #725 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/31/2005 @ 10:13 am PT...
Court Cases Update
Here are some ongoing court docket links:
Georgalis v FDOT This docket shows that the case is still in the preliminary phase, even tho the court has ordered her back to work pending the outcome of the case (Case No. 37 2003 CA 000085).
YEI v Curtis et. al. This docket shows that this case is also still in the preliminary phase(Case No. 37 2002 CA 000965).
FLORIDA COMMISSION ON HUMAN RELATIONS, et al. vs YANG INC, et al. This docket shows that the case is probably done (Case No 37 2002 CA 001719) because the complaint against FDOT was filed too late and the appellate court reversed the trial court for that reason.
Group Think v Feeney et al This case is in preliminary stages and I am not sure what it is about (Case No. 37 2002 CA 000772).
MEDIA GENERAL OPERATIONS INC vs FEENEY, TOM This case is about getting government documents and Feeney's attempted cover up by fighting it. So far cell phone records have been ordered to be produced for inspection where they are records of official activity. It went up on appeal and Media General prevailed (Case No. 37 2002 CA 001175).
COMMENT #726 [Permalink]
...
casolaro
said on 3/31/2005 @ 10:50 am PT...
Fredd 702: You can find a lot of that "DC Pedophile is Guckert/Gannon actually Johnny Gosch" stuff on rense.com --- just Google "pedophile" and site:rense.com Sadly, the MK Ultra material has been a province of the tinfoil-hatted UFOlogist types for so many years that it's like reading the Enquirer - you might find something true in there, but how are you supposed to be able to recognize it? Answer: read everything... EVERYthing, but stick with original docs where possible.
Dredd, you are a godsend, thank you for caring so much that you're spending this many otherwise-billable hours on this
COMMENT #727 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/31/2005 @ 11:08 am PT...
COMMENT #728 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/31/2005 @ 11:19 am PT...
Yes, Kira, I can received Word attachments. Please include your e-mail address in the message so that I can e-mail you back with my mailing address. I'd like a hard copy or a Xerox of one in addition to an e-mail attachment.
COMMENT #729 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/31/2005 @ 11:48 am PT...
MMIIXX# 714
Cutting the ulner n. would not be the goal of a suicider or an assailent. In the Lemme case it would affect a couple of muscles of the arm (little finger side) and hand of his Left arm, he was right handed, so what for?
I think that this arm vein is used, as said before, by embalmers. Embalming requires removal of body blood to be replaced by other fluids and a vein has to be large enough and without valves to allow for the flushing out of a large quantity of fluid.
So, if the mission is to cut a fairly large vein which would allow back flow bleeding from the upper body even if the heart action was poor or absent this would be the choice.
If Lemme was suiciding 'by the blade' a more reasonable choice would be the veins of the wrist (both of them) then he could keep the cut veins dilated and flowing by emersing them in the warm bath water.
A reasonable conclusion might be that Lemme was already dead or near death when put into the tub and his assailent(s) had some knowleged of mortuary practice.
The 6:20a. call to Clift, alledgedly by Lemme, was useful to only one person and only if there was no rooky cop in the VPD to be skeptical of this 'suicide'. It was like his low cost insurance plan.
COMMENT #730 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/31/2005 @ 4:09 pm PT...
My friends, it seems we are about to descend to the next level down. The "Cold Case" Thread Morgue. I'm just waiting for the elevator
Let me mention a few things about Lemme that I hope we can put our heads together on:
Basically, Lemme was an a-hole to Mavis. From Curtis' book, it seems he was quite a player on the side of wrong for a long time at FDOT. Meantime, Curtis was having weird things happen like very old friends coming out of the woodwork trying to find out his political views, etc. Lots of hassles that he attributes directly to YEI. Then, apparently Lemme has a sudden change of heart (from being a complete a-hole), to deciding on his own to investigate Clift's claims yet pretend like he was still an FDOT player. He's gonna be a good guy now. As I mentioned before, he visited Curtis at work looking for additional information. He never told Curtis what he was finding out or where the case was going.
I just want to suggest that it could be that Lemme was working for YEI to get information out of Curtis and to keep tabs on anything Curtis may be doing to move any legal issues. This was of enormous concern to YEI. They had previously offered him lots and lots of money just to be affiliated with them (i.e., not turn on them).
If this were the case, I have a problem. The most important thing is, if Lemme had information that went all the way to the top, and FDOT and YEI and Jeb were players in all of that, WHAT would Lemme reasonably have been able to do with the information that he held? Where was he going to present that information?
YEI may be completely affiliated with this entire scenario. So the main question I want to pose to the group is: Could YEI have managed all of the details on their own - without help from someone at FDOT? And, where would Lemme have gone with all of his "private" investigative work (work that FDOT was not sponsoring.)
COMMENT #731 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/31/2005 @ 5:23 pm PT...
Miss Persistent #730
Lots of things are possible. He could have tried to blackmail them.
He may have had a true change of heart or he could have decided Georgalis was guilty.
Georgalis could also be a suspect since Lemme was coming down on her and as a result she lost her career.
A lot of this will be exposed in the cases I mentioned in post #725.
COMMENT #732 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/31/2005 @ 6:04 pm PT...
RLM - did you get the letter?
COMMENT #733 [Permalink]
...
Peggy
said on 3/31/2005 @ 6:10 pm PT...
Hope your letters get some action. I guess you may get a standard "thank you for your letter response". But maybe a proper investigation will be started. That article did disappear from bellaciao rather quickly...strange...perhaps it was pulled because of ongoing investigation...hopefully.
COMMENT #734 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/31/2005 @ 6:37 pm PT...
Let me quote Georgalis on Lemme (only because it seems a little of an eye-opener):
Mavis: ...This portion of the story would make a book of it's own - including the part where the Inspector General's Investigator, Ray Lenke, traveled approx. 120 miles to accompany the Sherriff at the time of my arrest. Although I was baby-sitting my 3-year old granddaughter, Mr. Lenke had a tantrum in front of my home and demanded that the Sheriff handcuff me (in my PJ's) and turn my grandaughter over to Children's Services. Needless to say, the Columbia County Sheriff sent Mr. Lenke back to Tallahassee, allowed me sufficient time to arrange care for my granddaughter, and allowed me to turn myself in..."
"The retaliation continues...someday I might get my life back..."
COMMENT #735 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/31/2005 @ 6:53 pm PT...
I think it's important to know that Lemme WAS playing the rude FDOT game. The game of ruining others people lives if they didn't go along with the game. According to Curtis, he had a change of heart somewhere down the road and started to investigate Clint's suspicions - on the side - collecting all the information that Clint had.
Let me say that, I still think it looks like murder. Except for one point for which I'd love to hear arguments. Clint says that the couple of weeks prior to when the case would blow, that Lemme walked in happy, almost giddy. Just so everyone knows, that is common with people who have finally decided to "end it." They feel relieved. If Lemme had been such a jerk on the job and had nowhere to go with his information, he MAY really have chosen the sort of suicide that fits the self-punishment theme the way that this scene indicates.
Unfortunately, the physical evidence does not match a suicide. I think the above events are how the "Suicide Planner" came to suggest this method.
And it certainly implicates YEI more infectively since it was their contracts that were the basis for these "FDOT employee" problems.
COMMENT #736 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/31/2005 @ 7:01 pm PT...
I have to say Toodles for the night. I've had an eye twitch for a week that I'm trying to cure! I hope to read a lot tomorrow!!
COMMENT #737 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/31/2005 @ 8:43 pm PT...
Miss P #735 and others
An interesting bit of information--------
so while we all are busy scrathing our bunns while trying to put together slim items like timelines that do not fit in order to exonerate Lemme from the 'crime' of self murder in order to get an investigation to find the real crime and the real criminals and now we find, perhaps, that Lemme was just one of them.
Proves that old adage "Takes a criminal ('s death)to find a criminal".
All is well, let's just unroof the whole pack.
COMMENT #738 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/31/2005 @ 8:52 pm PT...
Wonder who's holding back on the rest of the pictures from the crime scene , is this material/evidence is being "drip-feed" for a reason?
COMMENT #739 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/31/2005 @ 11:57 pm PT...
Here's another line of inquiry.
The Coroner.
I was reading an article about Lori Klausutis, the staffer who worked for Joe Scarborough that turned up dead in the office. Anyway, like this Lemme case, there were some strange aspects to it.
One of the peculiarities was of the coroner that performed the examination on Lori Klausutis. Click here to read up on that coroner. He basically had a very bad reputation including falsifying autopsy reports.
So what is the reputation of the coroner that examined Lemme? This looks like a research job for Kira! Just kidding, I'll get on it this weekend and see what we can find out about our friend, Charles Exum.
COMMENT #740 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 4/1/2005 @ 1:23 pm PT...
If Lemme had been playing the game for a long while, then had a change of heart and went straight, it seems to me that would increase the chance of his being murdered, not be a suicide.
He'd have more "on" bad people for having earned their trust than if he'd been a clean Gene all along.
If a guy has a reputation of being a honest "cop" who can't be bought, crooks avoid him like the plague, don't they? If he's like a Mexican lawman, he's welcome in any crowd of hoods. If he's first crooked and then goes straight, that's doubly risky; he's not only a threat, he's a traitor.
My money is still on the Yangs as having hired the hit men. They had the most to lose from Lemme's investigation. I think Jeb, Feeney et al. entered the picture during the cover-up phase, and used that old standby "national security" as a rationale (because of the Yangs connection with spying and NASA) to get Childress to shut off the second investigation and keep Mary Ann Lemme quiet.
Tom Ridge is alive and well in Tallahassee.
COMMENT #741 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 4/1/2005 @ 1:30 pm PT...
I agree Robert, good points.
Anyone thought of where Lemme was going to take his information? Any ideas at all?
COMMENT #742 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 4/1/2005 @ 3:34 pm PT...
Was the appointment at 1.30 with the FDOT lawyer connected to the "big case" ?
COMMENT #743 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 4/1/2005 @ 8:00 pm PT...
Help! I just lost my 'a' on the April 1st thred.
Hope it turns up sfe.
COMMENT #744 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 4/1/2005 @ 8:10 pm PT...
Fred # 739
Wierd, I was thinking of the Lori K. case for a couple of days. That coroner made some dubious calls and the case went to the file-away-forever-zone and Scarborough went on to better glory in the GOPher club.
Someday justice may happen.
COMMENT #745 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 4/2/2005 @ 4:30 am PT...
Wonder if he had a home office?
COMMENT #746 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 4/2/2005 @ 7:50 am PT...
Another item, not mentioned in this thread which may have relevence in an action to request an inquest, which would primarily question 'suicide' as the manner of death, is this:
If Lemme did in fact suicide himself when in the progress of the acts did he fill the tub with water?
If it was 'before' he cut his arm vein then how can one explain the blood on the right wall of the tub enclosure higher up and the ceiling?
If it was 'after' then there could be an explaination for the blood on the right rim and higher up ---he got up by puttting his now bloody right hand on the right tub rim, and then on the wall higher up and somehow touched the ceiling area (blood was noted on the ceiling--but no description of where). But then that opens the question of blood 'not' being noted to be on the faucet handles and lack of blood along the left side of the tub. Certainly, if he was bending over to turn on the water while his left arm was bleeding there should have been a lot of blood in that area of the tub, and possibly bloody left hand prints on the left rim and interior of the tub.
COMMENT #747 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 4/2/2005 @ 9:46 am PT...
My but that was a long trip down here. Had to switch elevators too!
Odds and ends:
Look. There is blood on the inside of the tub edge near the blade, suggesting a quick motion from right to left for putting the blade down with the cloth leaving the blood streak on the inside edge of the tub. This indicates that at the time the cuts were made, Lemme was on the right side of the tub and low down. The cloth mark goes from right to left.
The cloth is also used for something up high since the descending cloth marks (from high to low and left to right) where the cloth landed show a descending path. Since the descending marks are made of blood, the cut had already been made and blood was already on the cloth. Why stand up with the cloth still in hand?
So, if Lemme had done it, he would have had to have stood up after the cutting act, turned around, put blood on the upper ledge and lower ledge then throw the cloth down from up there - with his left arm. Doesn't fit with the flow of the cloth marks having to have had some force against the wall.
The non-buckle end of the belt was drenched in blood. Look on the towel. There is blood soaked into the towel all along the non-buckle end of the belt. The blood skid mark of the belt goes from left to right. Does this indicate Lemme was standing up near the left of the tub when he took off the tourniquet and tossed it onto the towel? Why sit down to make the original cut only to stand up when taking the tourniquet off? Taking the tourniquet off results in nausea, lightheadedness.
How does the non-buckle end of the belt end up with more blood on it than the buckle end?
I think the shower was on at some point because the ledge on the back wall to the right shows water mixed with blood.
COMMENT #748 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 4/2/2005 @ 10:27 am PT...
Robert, just a guess of course, but I would think that if he were investigating Curtis' allegations on the side and not officially with FDOT then it would be a personal endeavor and not subject to FOIA.
However, if he used the "company" car or "company" phone or "company" credit card, then it could be possible, I guess. And now that you mention it, it is kind of interesting that "none" of his efforts included "company" anything - except the black book. And if you take the receipts at face value, and time on the note, it even appears that the death wasn't on company time either.
COMMENT #749 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 4/2/2005 @ 12:28 pm PT...
For Miss P: Assuming Curtis is telling the truth that Lemme had said he was about to break the case and that Curtis would be satisfied, my guess is that he'd have turned his report in through the proper channels but to protect against shredding would have mailed or faxed a copy to the local papers that had covered the D.O.T. fraud inquiry in 2002.
Lemme was too experienced a guy, and had put in too much work, to simply allow his report to get deep-sixed. He'd have created a paper trail. Knowing this, the Yangs had to 1) Recover that paper trail, and 2) Get rid of Lemme.
Which raises a separate point, and I'll pose it as a question to everyone. "Under the Freedom of Information Act, don't we as citizens have a right to inspect Ray Lemme's notes?"
COMMENT #750 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 4/2/2005 @ 12:55 pm PT...
I'm not a lawyer. But maybe Dredd or another legal beagle could pursue the question of an FOIA
suit to obtain the records.
At the state level, Lemme was in the employ of a taxpayer-financed organization, so any Florida citizen should have the right to say, "My taxes were paying his salary, and I want to see what I was getting for my money."
And Georgia Attorney General Baker owes that state's residents an explanation for the Valdosta P.D.'s decision to drop the reopened investigation.
COMMENT #751 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 4/2/2005 @ 3:26 pm PT...
How/why would he turn the shower off afterwards?
The bath should have overflowed.
Maybe the bad guy needed to wash off some blood with the cloth and off his hands.
COMMENT #752 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 4/2/2005 @ 6:58 pm PT...
OK, Visualize this.
1) PA aims stun gun sideways and fires at Lemme's chest. The stun gun sends out 2 pieces - a top and a bottom - but they turn out to look left and right on Lemme's body. The PA is a lefty. (See 2 black marks on shirt and bloodless ring.)
2) PA carries him to bathtub and places him in laying down position. Careful not to bump or bruise.
3) PA puts tourniquet on and slices Lemme's arm using the blade held by the washcloth.
4) PA quickly places the blade down to his left so that it is out of the way. There is not much blood at that point since the tourniquet is still on. See swish mark on inside of tub near the relatively clean blade.
5) PA quickly places the cut arm arm on Lemme's shirt over his stomach and shifts the body so that it is facing the back wall so the blood doesn't spurt. He leaves the cloth on top of the cut.
6) PA lets Lemme lay there for a while, and accomplice turns the shower on. PA arranges the towel on the floor and steps back out of the bathroom to go arrange things.
7) Accomplice (who was to the left of PA) removes the tourniquet with cloth in hand so as not to leave fingerprints. Blood pours down the arm and onto the non-buckle side of the belt as it loosens. Accomplice tosses the tourniquet onto the towel on the floor using the cloth. The shower water also helps to suppress blood from spurting.
8) Accomplice turns the shower off with his left hand.
9) Accomplice squeezes the cloth to leave some blood on the lower shelf and then does the same on the higher shelf. (Less blood on the higher than the lower.)
10) Accomplice throws the cloth against the back wall and closes the curtain part way.
COMMENT #753 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 4/2/2005 @ 7:18 pm PT...
It is a long trip.
Miss P #748
sorry but I do not see some of the items you mentioned in the pics. I cannot tell if there is water on the upper shelf, tho I see what looks like two water glasses. Blood on and under the shelf and on the ridge leading downward.
The blade is on the rim to the left of Lemme and is not in proximaty to any blood. the blade itself looks 'crummy' but from the pic I would not say it has blood on it.
There is blood and smear on the wall and rim of the right tub ledge. And a small pool on the left rim and drip marks on the exterior side down to the towel on the floor.
The point I was making in 747 is that once Lemme was cut he did not get out of the tub and once the tub was filled with water he did not get out.
So what came first?
COMMENT #754 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 4/2/2005 @ 8:08 pm PT...
Missed reading your #752
First, it has not been definitely established who the 'cutter' was. So the first order of business is to show it was a suicide--. If that cannot be done then it had to be homicide and it would be the job of the VPD or the FBI to work out the details and find the culprit(s).
If Lemme was the 'cutter' and he did that first then there should have been blood in more places on the tub as he maneuvered to get to the tub water turn-ons and he would have had to get up to get blood on the shelf above. Then he wuold have had to wait until the tub was filled before tuning the water off. So blood would have been everywhere.
If he filled the tub first and then cut himself then why get up to get blood onto the shelf and if he did get up the blood would be more wide spread.
So it would appear that all the problems of timelines and logistics and rushing to Georga do not work nor does the mode of suicide work.
As far as blood not flowing from the cut while the touniquet is on--that is not true. Unless the tourniquet was put on so tight that the arterial flow was stopped. So what purpose was the tourniquet?
The usual purpose is to allow arterial blood into the extremity so the veins would distend and could be seen.
COMMENT #755 [Permalink]
...
casolaro
said on 4/2/2005 @ 10:10 pm PT...
Dredd, if we believe Curtis (and we sho' nuff do), then Georgialis was a GOOD GUY, despite the Yangs' attempts to bribe her in any way possible.
COMMENT #756 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 4/3/2005 @ 3:04 am PT...
Curtis and Georgalis were fired by the D.O.T. on the same day! That suggests to me that they were working together, not at cross purposes. And since Curtis had worked for Yang and knew what they were all about, it's logical to assume Georgalis did, too. Would the Yangs have tried to bribe Georgalis if she hadn't been a threat to them?
Maybe I'm missing something here.
COMMENT #757 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 4/3/2005 @ 4:24 am PT...
Right now there's at least one Special Forces team under control of the White House operating in this country to take 'extra legal actions'. Now, that sounds to me like a White House-controlled death squad.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0504/S00009.htm
sniper eyes ?
COMMENT #758 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 4/3/2005 @ 11:06 am PT...
Yang framed Georgalis with unsupported lies about bribery that the FDOT simply bought into without fairness of investigation. She pursued reinstatement at FDOT through legal means and won. Curtis backs her up. They both appear Good Guys. So, Yang had control over FDOT.
Cole, no water on upper shelf, just lower. And I know some blood flowed from the cut when it was sliced - I only say that they placed the arm over his shirt (blood soaked chest) to stave off the spurting. There is a whisk of blood from the cloth just on the inside edge of the tub near the blade, indicating that the blade was placed after Lemme was down in the tub. But the blade is too far away from Lemme for him to have done it himself.
COMMENT #759 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 4/3/2005 @ 12:12 pm PT...
The "cover-up" that Lemme was investigating, filed by both Georgalis and Curtis, was based on the Yangs:
Overbilling, millions in fraud
Wire-tapping
Illegal alien working on FDOT contract
National security, NASA
That's what we need to investigate, right? That is what Lemme was working on with Curtis. That is what got Lemme killed.
A LOT of that stuff should surely be available under FOIA !!!! Right?
COMMENT #760 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 4/3/2005 @ 1:44 pm PT...
It certainly should be available under FOIA. NASA is a federal agency, so at least to that extent the act should govern citizen access.
If (as I suspect) "national security" was used as the excuse for having Childress shut off the reopened investigation in December (and keep Mary Ann Lemme out of the debate), it follows that it will be used to frustrate any FOIA request. I can hear it now..."That information is privileged. To release it would endanger important secrets and our relations with China."
Response..."If we're so concerned about keeping secrets from China, why was Henry Nee given a token fine and no jail sentence for spying on us for them? And why is he still in this country?"
The right-wing and the uber-patriots (often the same crowd) should be the angriest of all about Henry Nee. They should be on our side, if that's all that stands in the way of obtaining FOIA help.
COMMENT #761 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 4/3/2005 @ 10:11 pm PT...
Miss P #758
Thanks for the water observation. I cannot tell, from the pics even with your help, if there is any water or water stain on the tub--other than the contents.
That is important because the tub scene is like the rest of the 'suicide' set to damn neat. It is entirely your typical B movie staging---one cup and one bottle of water on a table (so only one person!), the neat well prepared simple timed note (Unsigned!). Pocket belongings well placed on the vanity, shirt neatly hung, shoes placed near the entry to the vanity---everything kind of walks you right in.
Then the tub scene caps it all blood here and there a neatly placed razor blade, and finally the deceased bent over from an upright sitting position.
Trouble is it is too well staged. There should be more blood --on the tub rim and on the inside curtain and at the turn on knobs.
And there is the matter of what looks like discoloration at the right neck and shoulder and maybe about the mouth and darkend eyes.
Levidity is a slow process--if one gets bruised the first thing is swelling and pain. After time the swelling goes down and a black and blue bruise comes on then that changes to the liver color that we may be seeing in the pics.
The timeline does not fit and the tub scene does not fit. This is a staged for the inspectors scene complete with door locked from the inside.
By the way venous blood does not 'spurt'.
Arterial blood 'spurts' but that depends on an active heart which maintains the higher blood pressure. And in that event the arterial blood spurt would be like a beaten area with the areas hit having many multiple droplets, like spray paint. The two small drops noted by the VPD to be 'consistant' with arterial blood and a sitting position is amateurish.
The placement of the razor is well within Lemme's reach--the wound on his arm was not that severe and not that disabling. He could have cut himself, then scooted down placed the blade on the tub and scooted some more to reach the water and fill the tub. But then there would be more blood on the tub rim and/or on the curtain. Then stood up to put blood on the shelf area. There is nothing in the report to justify that.
There is relly only one conclusion.
COMMENT #762 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 4/3/2005 @ 10:21 pm PT...
Ups! lost my 'a' once more, what the 'l'.
Here it is ----really.
And i agree with you Robert, the uber-patriots were really pissed at Clinton/Gore about their Chinese contacts, they should be with us.
But this is different, this is about greed, profit and power.
COMMENT #763 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 4/4/2005 @ 9:51 am PT...
Robert, there are an abundance of 'things' in the works before the time of Lemme's death to justify
a complete investigation-whether or not they could be the basis of a "motive" to remove Lemme by force.
We do know that on Lemme's death the file(s) were closed.
And we do know that the ground on which the ladder ( refered to by Snoopy and others ) stands is the Lemme "suicide" --somehow we have to open that case up and start climbing.
COMMENT #764 [Permalink]
...
Peggy
said on 4/4/2005 @ 10:45 am PT...
I find it odd that someone planning suicide woud bring a bottle of water with him. Wouldn't a bottle of vodka, or scotch, or something stronger be more appropriate or numbing in the circumstances?? As you have all pointed out, the scene is staged - hardly the emotional scenario one would imagine for Mr. Lemme, who loved his wife and daughter so much. Nothing fits!
COMMENT #765 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 4/4/2005 @ 10:49 am PT...
Robert, (2nd try--my first did not go. yet?)
There was a lot of 'stuff' going on before the Lemme
"suicide". Any of which could be sufficient motive to have him removed, to stop his investigation(s) or to just warn off others.
It seems to have worked. The Henry Nee hush up being one big example.
The bottom rung in the ladder Snoopy and others outlined elsewhere in this thread may be Clift but the ground it is set upon is the death of Lemme.
If an investigation of that crime and what he was working on can be opened then the climb to the top could start .
That's a tall order, Insider Magazine couldn't make it happen and this thread is thinning out.
The Nee case may be a point from which to start and continue pressure. But if we can extract enough good arguements from this tread to make the arguement that death by 'suicide' is doubtful then there might be a chance that there will be a wider investigation.
COMMENT #766 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 4/4/2005 @ 12:45 pm PT...
For Cole: It seems the Henry Nee "prosecution" was a hushed-up job. A $100 fine and no jail time for espionage involving NASA secrets? Seems to me this would make a wonderful issue for a lot of folks, and not just liberal conspiracy theorists.
Maybe an FOIA request should start there (lawyers, please help!). "As citizens, we demand all the facts concerning an illegal immigrant who pled guilty to spying against the United States for his home country, yet paid a token fine and served no time in prison." We don't have to mention Feeney, Curtis, or even the Yangs in making the request.
Yes, it's about greed, profit, and power. And all of that will reveal itself in due course. But our request could be very specific to begin with...It could summarize as follows: "Henry Nee was treated more leniently for spying on the United States than Martha Stewart was for lying about a stock transaction. We demand to know why she went to jail and he didn't."
The Stewart case was also about greed, profit, and power, but no high-level politicians were lurking in the background.
COMMENT #767 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 4/4/2005 @ 1:33 pm PT...
I'm just waiting now for those "answers" Brad has promised. In the meantime, I'm having people look at the shirt. The shirt is a very large smoking gun. It takes time though.
COMMENT #768 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 4/4/2005 @ 2:44 pm PT...
Another thing to look into--if possible---are the calls to clift on the 30th after 6:15 a.m.
The phone record was already looked into by VPD who verified that Clift's phone recieved a call at (about) 6:20a.m. from that pay phone on the way to the fleabag hotel. Would be interesting to find out from that record if other calls came into that phone after that, and times, and numbers of course.
COMMENT #769 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 4/4/2005 @ 2:49 pm PT...
OK---ei ei ei
not 'ie' !!
COMMENT #770 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 4/4/2005 @ 4:59 pm PT...
I think a "please explain" is necessary on the apparent difference in page types in the “day planner/Diary”
Round corner on the suicide note , square corners on the other pages! WTF
COMMENT #771 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 4/5/2005 @ 2:21 am PT...
Just for the record, I have received no replies as yet from any of the congresspeople I sent the Chris Shays letter to...nor from Chris himself or Georgia Attorney General Baker.
COMMENT #772 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 4/5/2005 @ 5:58 am PT...
Definitely the odd page in the book is a smoking gun, the shirt is a smoking gun, the phone call at 6.15 is also a smoking gun. All three are hard evidence that we still have.
I suppose that Lemme was gathering proof, that is, hard evidence in the form of emails, memos, conversations overheard, regarding FDOT's coverup of Yang's illegal activities. The coverup orders came from the top at FDOT - perhaps Jose Abreu - a person appointed personally by Jeb Bush. Why would it be important to Jeb to allow Yang to do these things? Where's the money in it for Jeb, et. al.?
COMMENT #773 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 4/5/2005 @ 6:02 am PT...
And let's not forget, Clift's sworn affidavit says he got a message from Lemme (I assume that means he was saying he recognized Lemme's voice) at 6.15a. Impossible - unless someone else was doing the checking in and out. Which seems likely. They didn't require ID (per Curtis) so that is entirely feasible. As a matter of fact, if it could be proven that the signature on the receipt is a fake, it would be another smoking gun indicating suicide as highly suspicious.
COMMENT #774 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 4/5/2005 @ 11:51 am PT...
For Miss P: Jeb Bush doesn't need money, and I don't think he'd have suborned the murder of Lemme if he'd known about it in advance. The Yangs did it for their own reasons...if Lemme's report had hit the papers, their financial empire was threatened and they could have been deported (Nee should have been).
Once Lemme was found dead, everything changed.
A thorough investigation would have led to all the collateral stuff...Feeney, the vote-rigging, Curtis' dead dog, his affidavits, the fact that Curtis and Georgalis were fired on the same day for the same thing (whistle-blowing), and all the lies that were needed to keep everything under wraps.
At that point the Bush machine sprung into action, and the word went out..."National security interests forbid any inquiry into matters under Lemme's purview. He killed himself, and that's as far it will go."
Until Brad Friedman came along, at least.
COMMENT #775 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 4/5/2005 @ 12:53 pm PT...
In Curtis book he said Lemme told him (while he was alive), that the cover up went all the way to the top and that Clint would be shocked. I assumed that was higher than Yang or Abreu.
COMMENT #776 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 4/5/2005 @ 1:25 pm PT...
Robert - we should send a/the letter here too:
Office of the Chief Inspector General
Derry Harper, serves as Chief Inspector General for the State of Florida.
As Chief Inspector General, he will be responsible for promoting accountability, integrity and efficiency in agencies under the jurisdiction of the Governor, and also serves as Inspector General for the Executive Office of the Governor. Prior to his appointment by Governor Jeb Bush in February 2002, he served as Corporate Counsel and staff attorney for BellSouth Corporation. Prior to joining BellSouth, he worked as an Assistant United States Attorney in the Middle District of Tennessee, in Nashville and also served as an Assistant District Attorney for Davidson County, Tennessee.
link here
COMMENT #777 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 4/5/2005 @ 3:06 pm PT...
Look at this story ,why does this guy get an investigation into his "suicide" but the Lemme case is decided almost on the spot?
U.S.
Investigators believe embattled judge committed suicide.
WESLACO, Texas (AP) --- Investigators suspect suicide in the death of an embattled judge who won a third term despite a widely reported FBI raid of his home and courthouse chambers, authorities said.
The body of State District Judge Ed Aparicio, 46, was found Monday shortly after a news release was issued announcing he was resigning to dedicate more time to his family and to personal family matters that required immediate attention.
"The demands of my position as judge have unfortunately taken a toll on my personal life," the judge said. The release did not elaborate.
Aparicio was found dead in a pool of blood in the den of his home after he failed to show up for work. All the doors of the house were locked.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/...udge.death.ap/index.html
COMMENT #778 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 4/5/2005 @ 4:54 pm PT...
Miss P: The cover-up of the billing scandals was one thing. I'm sure Jeb had a hand in stifling that investigation...to protect Feeney, Florida Republicans, and various and sundry slimeballs inside the D.O.T. When Lemme said "...all the way to the top, he was talking about a cover-up of corruption.
But murder was another thing altogether. I strongly believe that was the Yangs' doing. Jeb isn't stupid (unlike his older brother); I'm sure he put two and two together very quickly, figured out what had happened, and he and the White House put out the equivalent of a "code orange" security alert. That's their favorite trick when things go awry politically.
COMMENT #779 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 4/5/2005 @ 8:33 pm PT...
MMIIXX #777
Why is there an investigation into this "suicide"?
Answer is obvious. Lemme was found in a locked room, in a tub, filled with water. blood almost nowhere but in the tub, everything neat neat neat--
it was the perfect Hollywood B movie set.
The judge was found in the den in a pool of blood--
messy!
They have to find out who staged that set, didn't they know that the Sears Catalogue 1932 issue clearly calls for a tub full of water. A VPD one day investigation would then have put this to rest.
COMMENT #780 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 4/5/2005 @ 8:49 pm PT...
Miss P
Use your influence, maybe Dredd would know, How do we get a copy of the phone bill that Clift used when he 'gave' it to the VPD at proof of a call to his work phone at 6:15 a.m. on the 30th which Clift identified as Lemme saying he would be late?
The question is: Were there more calls to that phone that morning? If so they should be on the same bill.
That bill was already given for 'proof' so it should be available, no?
COMMENT #781 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 4/5/2005 @ 10:22 pm PT...
when are "they" going to release the rest of the pictures .
COMMENT #782 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 4/6/2005 @ 6:06 am PT...
Cole, My thinking is that either way, that phone call is nefarious because there is no way Lemme could have made it to the motel from that phone by 6.54. So that means either:
1) Lemme made the call and someone else forged those receipts; or
2) Clift made the call, since he insisted it was left by Lemme - Lemme's voice.
I tend to buy in to #1 above since the suicide note looks planted. But #2 has it's merits too. If we did get the bill, we still wouldn't know if it was Lemme's voice. The only proof we need right now is the fact that Lemme could not have made it to the fleabag from the phone booth by 6.54am. A fact that was overlooked by the VPD.
The call record noted in the reports is a smoking gun as is - along with the shirt, the page edges of the suicide note, etc.
BTW, where do we know the tub was actually filled with water? There is no "ring around the tub" so-to-speak?
COMMENT #783 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 4/6/2005 @ 3:06 pm PT...
Hey all ... been offline for about a week ...
On the FOIA (generally a federal concept) .... the federal agencies usually have an official who handles such requests ... should be done on a department / bureau / etc. basis (e.g. ask air force for Lemme service records; as FBI for any investigation documents available, etc.)
... Georgia has a fairly good looking state law in that regard. On the face of it they want open government and as much info released to the public as possible ... (ask VPD directly for their documents, ask the Coroner [an elected official] for the medical report documents, including photos)
... ditto for Florida where they are called "sunshine laws" ... (ask FDOT for documents; ask clerks of relevant counties for other info)
I would suggest calling or emailing the clerk of the relevant county and state, and asking them for a docket of what is available, and the cost ...
COMMENT #784 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 4/6/2005 @ 4:01 pm PT...
Miss P #782
We are not going to know if Lemme made that call.
But my thinking is that 'someone else' made that call and the only purpose that makes sense for that is to give Clift an alibi---he stated he picked up the call on his answer machine at 6:30a.--so he must have been in Florida at the crucial time.
Why would he need an alibi ---for a crime not yet committed?
Reason is obvious.
But he would have to take that message off the machine---How? By calling in and accessing his answer machine at about 6:30.
So if there are calls at about that time there is a good chance one was his and a trace back of the number might lead right straight to Clift.
Or require furthur explaination of who else was calling in so early esp. if the area code was in the Lemme route. If a call in was by cell phone----whose?
COMMENT #785 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 4/6/2005 @ 4:21 pm PT...
Miss P
"No ring around the tub"
What I see in the pictures is that Lemme was in the tub with fluid up to his chest. That could not all be blood. Must be a good volume of water.
And the VPD report does state there was a large pool of blood along his left side.
That would be explected, he was bleeding from the left arm cut, and blood is heavier than water and would not 'dissolve' into the water. It would drop and lay at his side, and tend to slide along the bottom. Unless the blood was clotted, then it would accumulate at his side.
And most importantly the scene had to have the proper 'look' --which would be a guy in a tub with lots of blood and initially filled with warm water.
And that is another difficulty of this scene-when did Lemme, if he was self suicided open the water to fill the tub?
As I said before, if he cut himself then slithered down to open the water there should have been more blood in the foot area on the tub and curtain etc. If he filled it first, what is the explaination of blood high up on the right side of the tub enclosure?
And there should be more blood than just a small rub.
COMMENT #786 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 4/6/2005 @ 11:43 pm PT...
MMIIXX #770,
Concerning those "rounded corners" in Lemme's planner, I'm not sure why many of us here find that so mysterious or unusual.
As a matter of fact, Office Max and Staples both offer a variety of "re-fills" for DayRunner and Franklin Planner brands of products. If Lemme used those pages quite a bit for taking notes (he was an investigator after all) why is it bizarre that Lemme would purchase a re-filler that happened to have different corners than the other sections in his planner?
More than likely, when purchasing re-fillers, people are usually only concerned with whether the pages will conform to the binder ring layout of their planner and the pattern of the graphic design on the pages. Rounded or square corners may not be a major concern in that purchase.
If I'm missing something about this, somebody please explain it.
COMMENT #787 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 4/7/2005 @ 3:14 am PT...
Fred #
I know what you say is totally correct about the availability of “replacement pages” for day planners.
The fact that the page with the suicide note was the ONLY page introduced into “evidence” from the day planner is a red flag.
I would have expected his noted appointments both before and after his death would have been helpful in investigating this event .For instance was there a diary entry for his daughters upcoming wedding, an entry regarding his 1.30 with the lawyer, did he note expenses, log miles, phone numbers, keep receipts et cetera in the day planner. Therefore the difference page type in conjunction with the above deserves noting.
I think all we can do is look at the limited information available to us and note anything untoward no matter how small and document it in the hope that at some point in the future it can be utilized as a way to force a re-opening of the case or pasted on if the case is re-opened for other reasons.
P.S. Shouldn’t Clifts number be on Lemme pager as he’d been trying to contact him?
P.S.S. Did Lemme always go to work with no money on him?
COMMENT #788 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 4/7/2005 @ 8:34 am PT...
Cole #784, I see - there would be 2 calls logged for Clift - one for the original message and one for the call-pickup. The call pickup record would be important and would show he was not on-site. That makes sense. And would rule Clift in or out immediately.
Cole #785, I've been staring at that fluid for some time now looking for a pattern. Why is it grayish greenish?
Fred #786, Yes he could have refilled either square or rounded edge paper. But, it looks like ALL the pages are square - except only ONE - the suicide note page. (Lucky for us because if it were the other way around we wouldn't see the pages underneath!) Anyway, no one fills one page, they fill a bunch at a time.
Importantly, someone would have to have personal knowledge of the type of paper (# of holes) that he used. They forgot to recognize that the same paper comes in rounded or square edges - just as you say.
MMIIXX, About the money. I thought at first it indicated a suicide plan. Then I realized that's the way it's supposed to look. They'd have taken any extra if there was some.
If the credit card receipt was forged, how did they get the card to run it through unless Lemme was already there at 6.54. If we are sure it was Lemme's card number, then Clift was certainly lying. Unless the card had been duplicated and stuck in his wallet locked in the car to make it look "oh so secure."
COMMENT #789 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 4/7/2005 @ 10:30 am PT...
Miss P #788
The calls--right! If there was a second call, say 20 min later, that would be close to a 'gotcha'.
The color of the tub water. Blood would layer on the bottom and light would reflect up. Same as a pool with 'dirt' on the bottom--looks dingy but when the pool guy vacuums up the 'dirt' the pool is sparkling.
Dredd, if you read this. There are a number of 'things' which were done and are questionable but there are also 'things' not done which perphaps should have.
Such as the 'rumor' of Lemme being depressed and suicidal--as per Clift (if that is valid?). If so, Clift as Lemme's boss should have made him take time off to 'get his head together' and to get some Psychiatric counseling.
Because, if Lemme went off the deep end and went suicidal and took some fellow employees with him--what would happen? A good chance family members of innocent victims would have launched
"Wrongful death suits" naming FDOT, boss Clift and a number of John D's. Clift and the FDOT would have been neglegent for failing to act when he knew his employee was unstable.
If this is correct could it not be taken up by a Ray Lemme family member who would have 'standing to bring a suit' such as his daughter or brother
( Perhaps his wife but her role may be uncertain) to file suit for "Wrongful Death" then lawyers armed with 'Discovery' could get all the documents and depositions needed to unwind this tangle of misfitting information.
COMMENT #790 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 4/7/2005 @ 6:27 pm PT...
And it would not necessarily be charity. This could be a win-able case and Florida has deep pockets.
Suicide or suicided FDOT is in it.
COMMENT #791 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 4/8/2005 @ 8:08 am PT...
The problem is, everything happened on off-hours.
COMMENT #792 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 4/8/2005 @ 4:18 pm PT...
Miss P #791
Not everything happened on off-hours--the Lemme suivide v. suicided happened during the monday working hours--I think.
The problem is this thread is down to a few strands.
After this thread opened up a lot of contraversial points that is sad.
I just notice that you brought forthe the idea, in #735 (part I) , of a suit aimed at FDOT. Good call.
The resolution or the solving of this case would/could come about through the probing of an able legal team gathering facts.
Insider Mag seemed to indicate they concluded this was not a suicide have they closed the book on this?
The dust is settling and the light is dimming in these catacombs--we need a good tailor.
COMMENT #793 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 4/11/2005 @ 6:01 am PT...
Cole, any ideas about the grayish/greenish tint to parts of Lemme's shirt? And can you see the couple of marks near the V that look possibly like finger marks?
I have the shirt picture being looked at with the sole instruction of "identify the weapon." I just have to wait and see.
COMMENT #794 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 4/11/2005 @ 10:22 am PT...
As we all know, and just for the record, we have a new piece of evidence (outside of the crime scene evidence we have discovered):
Clint Curtis passed the lie detector test.
COMMENT #795 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 4/11/2005 @ 12:34 pm PT...
Hi Miss P
looks like a few strands left in this thread.
Possible finger smudges---'they' probably wore gloves.
Good for Clint! But we had no doubt he is on the side of true justice.
An interesting item which I have no idea how to use is this--notice in the picture of the vanity, where all Lemme's things all placed neatly on the counter, back land to the left there looks like a towel and an ice bucket and two inverted cups with the Knights logo, all unused, undisturbed.
Then in the tub picture showing the ledge above and the blood smudges (how did they get there?) on the shelf there looks like two upright cups with no logo, and it looks like one is partially filled.
Where did they come from?
I have a guess that Lemme did not put them there and they were not left by the previous occupant.
COMMENT #796 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 4/13/2005 @ 9:50 am PT...
Cole, I think the "shining" areas on the upper shelf of the shower are light reflections from the camera rather than cups?
COMMENT #797 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 4/13/2005 @ 9:39 pm PT...
Miss P
Light reflection off of what?
Granted the pictures are not that good in the reproductions.
There have been a few more added comments to the previous thread. Maybe some fresh thoughts to add to this one before it goes away, to a lower drawer.
I looked at those pics and the reflections on a number of times and was puzzled so my conclusion that it was reflection off of glass or plastic cups is not fixed. But it looks like the reflection has a flat bottom, like the water level perhaps, which played the light in a different direction.
COMMENT #798 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 4/16/2005 @ 4:03 pm PT...
I came across a comment on the firt Lemme thread from some guy that seriously doubted sucide. Anyway he left a link to his own blog explaining his reasons.
I left him a comment [Click Here] concerning his weak attempt to refute the possibility of Lemme's murder.
I thought my fellow hard-corp posters here might find it amusing.
COMMENT #799 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 4/16/2005 @ 4:05 pm PT...
I came across a comment on the firt Lemme thread from some guy that seriously doubted sucide. Anyway he left a link to his own blog explaining his reasons.
I left him a comment [Click Here] concerning his weak attempt to refute the possibility of Lemme's murder.
I thought my fellow hard-corp posters here might find it amusing.
COMMENT #800 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 4/17/2005 @ 9:03 pm PT...
Fred #799
That was an interesting read.
Some highlights--discoloration about Lemme's right neck was conclude by writer to be a shadow.
Shadow? from what? The camera has its own light emitting source--so what could be in the way to cast a shadow?
Blood and the towel. That is a puzzler. There is blood on the tub rim and flows of blood down the outside of the tub are seen, and likely onto the floor with some pooling perhaps? In that case the towel was dropped onto the pool of blood, then the belt dropped. Lemme could not have done that or his blood would be copious on top of the towel too.
The towel is too neatly placed. Was the underside of the towel saturated with blood?
COMMENT #801 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 4/17/2005 @ 9:31 pm PT...
Fred #799
That was an interesting read.
I sent a reply but it did not print.
Try again.
The writer suggested the discloration was due to a shadow. From what?
He also had a complaint about the towel--so do I, but a different one. Mine is based on photo of blood noted on the rim in one pic and appearently flowed down the outside of the tub- as seen in another photo. If so then it appears to me that a pool of blood was at the base of the tub, on the floor and the towel was dropped on top of the pool and the dropplets of blood on the towel are blood climbing upward to the surface of the towel---- called capillary action.
Lemme could not have place the towel so neatly.
This needs to be better explained by the VPD.
Why the towel at all? An explaination could be that this suiciding required at least two John D's. Lemme's position suggests that he was propped to allow blood to flow from his upper body out of the wound made in his left arm--and to increase the flow John D. #2 was in the tub or on the rim elevating his legs.
COMMENT #802 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 4/17/2005 @ 9:37 pm PT...
The towel was placed by John D. #1 when the pool of blood at the base of the tub was seen so #2 could get onto the floor without stepping into blood and tracking it about.
COMMENT #803 [Permalink]
...
Charlie
said on 4/19/2005 @ 10:50 am PT...
Fred: Amusing? Perhaps to your fellow True Believers. But your comment was very insubstantial and doesn't do anything
to further your cause.
Cole said:
Some highlights--discoloration about Lemme's right neck was conclude by writer to be a shadow.
Shadow? from what? The camera has its own light emitting source--so what could be in the way to cast a shadow?
Look at the pictures again. You'll see that he has a large muscle in his shoulder. That causes the shadow one picture. In the other, the picture is taken from a different angle, and the jaw causes the shadow. That's how I'm seeing it. Take a look again, and let me know what you think.
He also had a complaint about the towel--so do I, but a different one. Mine is based on photo of blood noted on the rim in one pic and appearently flowed down the outside of the tub- as seen in another photo. If so then it appears to me that a pool of blood was at the base of the tub, on the floor and the towel was dropped on top of the pool and the dropplets of blood on the towel are blood climbing upward to the surface of the towel---- called capillary action.
Lemme could not have place the towel so neatly.
I'll look again later, I'm at lunch right now and don't have time to pull up the pictures again. The shadow description above is from memory.
COMMENT #804 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 4/21/2005 @ 5:00 am PT...
Charlie, maybe you could offer us a theory as to why a man planning to kill himself would drive 80 miles across state lines, check into a motel, turn around and drive 80 miles back home, get up at 5:15 a.m. the next day to drive 80 miles back to the same motel in order to check out without ever having used the room (calling his boss en route to say he'd be late for work), then sneak back into the same room without re-registering before bolting the door and slashing his wrists.
If you or anyone in the blogosphere can point to a single suicide, anywhere/any time, that followed such a pattern, I'll buy you a steak dinner at the best restaurant in Valdosta, GA.
COMMENT #805 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 4/21/2005 @ 10:10 am PT...
Charlie # 803
Admittedly, what looks like 'discoloration' on Lemme's right shoulder could be an artifact or trick of camera film. But a 'shadow' is too far a reach. Light travels in straight lines so for an explaination of shadowing to work a light source would have to be comming from his left and low, and an object has to be in the way and the shadow would extend beyond his neck area--onto the tub or his white T shirt.
The towel--if placed 'before' the cut, then the streaks of blood along the exterior of the tub would have been absorbed into the towel which touches the tub and would be clearly seen in the photo.
--- if placed 'after' , then there should be lots and lots of blood on and around and on top of the towel which there isn't.
The only conclusion is that it was 'neatly' place after the cut ---by someone else.
It was very insightful for Brad to have been alerted to question this 'suicide' on a lesser amount of information. This thread has exposed even more things that do not fit.
COMMENT #806 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 5/10/2005 @ 9:31 am PT...
Haloooooo? Anyone? Just checking.
Thought perhaps that the guy hired to investigate the Lemme matter might have set up office space down here in the Lemme Thread Morgue...
Sure wish we'd get an update...
COMMENT #807 [Permalink]
...
casolaro
said on 5/15/2005 @ 3:17 pm PT...
Hi Kestrel, Dredd, Fred, Winter, Miss P and all,
I've been busy. Also still been thinking of our Lemme puzzle. Then I got smacked by a powerful association - I hate it when I come up with s^*t that turns out to be too close, but here it is. The China connection - or one of them, all spelled out, and yes, it was Alltel again. They have offices in beautiful Valdosta, you know, as well as all over Florida. They donated the sports stadium in Jacksonville. Two Alltel people are connected to the Board of Directors of Valdosta Tech (remember where Shannon Floyd went after detecting soured?).
From my post as to "who had the motive/opportunity" on the previous page:
"COMMENT #408 [link]
...Casolaro said on 3/11/2005 @ 8:09pm PT...
Not CIA. The skill set is the same, but you have here a group operating in a way the CIA is specifically prohibited from operating, especially on US soil --- and you have ample evidence that although Bush Sr got along just fine with CIA, Junior hates them with a passion and has deployed the Goss monster to take out as many of the experienced and principled agents and administrators as he can - essentially ANYONE willing to stand up to the administration. It's a pain in the butt to watch and I think it is more damaging to US intel than the Great Disemboweling of 1978 was (see the careers of both Tower and Church for more details about that).
If you want some private company which has a link to both Valdosta and Casolaro's Inslaw investigation (why not?!), it's Alltel. Not just a comm company, Alltel Information Services in a previous incarnation was one of the companies involved with the guy marketing the pirated Inslaw s/w. And man, they are knee deep in highly classified govt contracts. "
From The Economist (Mar 26, 2005 issue - I missed this little page 73 boxed article until today):
"WHEN China Construction Bank (CCB) announced the resignation of its chairman, Zhang Enzhao, on March 16th, the mainland's third-biggest lender claimed he had quit for “personal reasons”. Just how personal may now be emerging. A lawsuit filed in the United States alleges that Mr Zhang collected a $1m bribe from an American firm for helping it to secure a big information-technology contract from his bank.
The allegation is part of a complaint over contract violations, seen by The Economist, that was filed in California last December under America's Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, but revealed only on March 20th in Caijing, a respected Chinese business magazine. It claims that Alltel Information Services (AIS, then part of Alltel, a telecoms company) offered the bribe during an all-expenses-paid golf trip for Mr Zhang and two friends to Pebble Beach, a smart Californian resort, in May 2002. It alleges that in addition to the bribe, Jim Wilson, an executive at AIS (re-named Fidelity Information Services when it was bought in 2003 by Fidelity National Financial, a listed American company), used his corporate credit card to pay more than $10,000 for the golf game.
The suit claims that Mr Zhang also asked AIS to pay for his son's education in London and to meet his wife's travel expenses to visit the son. It also says that Mr Zhang's friends received favours. It claims the bribe went through the accounts of Prosten Technology, a Hong Kong-listed firm, a director of which, Bobby Yip, accompanied Mr Zhang. Prosten denies facilitating a bribe. A second friend allegedly received monthly payments of $3,500 until the lawsuit hit."
AIS again. Same Alltel subsidiary. You say, "Oh, no, Fidelity National Financial bought AIS from Alltel?" Well, shucks, until April 5, 2005, Alltel owned majority shares in FNF: http://www.investor.fnf....37-05-4282&SID=05-00
Executive Vp and CFO is Alan L. Stinson of Jacksonville, FL (home of the lovely Alltel stadium). Here's his Opensecrets.org info, in case you were wondering whether this led back to George or through Little Rock (alltel's national HQ) to Bill:
STINSON, ALAN
JACKSONVILLE,FL 32217 and 32256
FIDELITY NATIONAL FINANCIAL/CFO
10/15/2004 $2,000 Republican Party of Florida
10/4/2004 $1,000 Martinez, Mel
You know Mel, he originated the Schiavo talking points memo, although he denied it and a staffer fell on his sword for that one (same misspelling --- "Teri" --- appeared in a Schiavo-related article purportedly penned directly by Mel Martinez --- so was he lying about writing that one, or about writing the "talking points" or does everyone in his office spell poorly the same way?). He's carryin' some Bush water on the Senate Foreign Relations Cmtee, voting *for* John "NightmareBoss" Bolton. He's a bud of Feeney's. Feeney went on a jaunt with Tom Delay to play golf in Scotland on Jack Abramoff's clients' dime. Er, make that hundreds of thousands of dimes.
3/23/2004 $1,000 Fidelity National Financial
12/12/2003 $2,000 McCollum, Bill
http://www.fldoe.org/bog/bios/mccollum.asp
9/16/2003 $2,000 Bush, George W
================
I'd say Alltel and Fidelity National's connections go all the way to the top. The corrupt and illicit China connection is there. The INSLAW/PROMIS software connection is there, and that is one scary blood trail. How many illicit and corrupt Chinese software/chip groups are operating independently of one another in the same small set of states, anyway?!
COMMENT #808 [Permalink]
...
casolaro
said on 5/15/2005 @ 9:03 pm PT...
More on Alltel. I told you there was a blood trail. B/c it's based in Little Rock, we have philanthropists like Richard Mellon Scaife to thank for financing the compilation and web-presentation of some of these. The people working for him on the Arkansas project were interested in making it look like Bill Clinton was involved. In Alltel's case, they had the wrong president. INSLAW/PROMIS is GHWB's era, not Clinton's.
Charles W. Miller - Was executive vice president and member of the board of directors for a company called Alltel and was deeply involved in his own software engineering company. Alltel is the successor to Jackson Stephens' "Systematics", the company that provided the software for the White House's "Big Brother" data base system and that was behind the administration's plan to develop the secret computer "Clipper" chip to bug every phone, fax and email transmission in America. Found dead of a gunshot wound to the head on November 17, 1998 in a shallow pit about 300 yards from his ranch house near Little Rock. Police found a Ruger .357-caliber revolver submerged in water. Investigators concluded the Rugerwas the weapon used by Miller to kill himself. Yet, two rounds in the handgun's cylinder had been spent.
Ian Spiro Low-level CIA conduit who had supporting documentation for grand jury proceedings on the INSLAW case. His wife and 3 children were found murdered on October 1, 1992 in their home. All died of gunshot wounds to the head. Ian's body was found October 8th in a parked car in the Borego Desert, not far from his document cache. FBI report indicated that Ian had murdered his family and then committed suicide by ingesting cyanide.
Danny Casolaro - Investigative reporter. Investigating INSLAW, and an organization that he called The Octopus. Found in a motel tub, his wrists were slit 7 times, an apparent suicide near the end of his investigation, just after he'd told a friend he was making a breakthrough, meeting a source at a motel (a previous source had been Alan Standorf, see below). However his body was immediately embalmed without his family's knowledge or consent. A later autopsy found traces of prescription drugs in his system there was no record of him having ever taken.(8-10-91).
Dennis Eisman - An attorney with information on INSLAW. Eisman was found shot to death on April 5, 1991.
Alan Standorf - An employee of the National Security Agency in electronic intelligence. Standorf was a source of information for Danny Casalaro who was investigating INSLAW, BCCI, etc. Standorf's dead body was found on the rear floor of his car under a pile of luggage at Washington National Airport on Jan 31, 1991.
Dr. Eric Rosskoss may also have been a Casolaro source (was, according to one internet document quoting "anonymous sources," but no corrob on that). On Friday June 29, 1990 he checked into a Comfort Inn in VA to attend a conference and many of his personal items and papers were missing from the room, but no one knows where they went - he was staggering nude and disoriented down the center divider of I-95 at 03:30 without his glasses (which he needed in order to see anything, and which were never found). He was struck and killed by a very sleepy driver.
So, clearly, checking into *motels* is what's so dangerous.
COMMENT #809 [Permalink]
...
casolaro
said on 5/20/2005 @ 10:42 am PT...
Miss P, I will be checking into this thread every three or four days, so if some response comes up, I will see it. I hope this investigator looks into Alltel, and keeps a close eye on Nee and YEI. They both seem like operations (H-H-H-Henry and the Yangs...) that will not close up shop just because of a little legal trouble. They are being tolerated by our government for some weird-ass reason (is it criminal or strategic or just inept?), and they will take as much booty as they can get until it's time to catch a plane. If the investigator can manage to not be noticed, sticking with them might be very fruitful. If he gets noticed, that could lead to a sudden severe depression and he should DEFINITELY stay out of motels.
COMMENT #810 [Permalink]
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casolaro
said on 5/20/2005 @ 1:12 pm PT...
Miss P, I will be checking into this thread every three or four days, so if some response comes up, I will see it. I hope this investigator looks into Alltel, and keeps a close eye on Nee and YEI. They both seem like operations (H-H-H-Henry and the Yangs...) that will not close up shop just because of a little legal trouble. They are being tolerated by our government for some weird-ass reason (is it criminal or strategic or just inept?), and they will take as much booty as they can get until it's time to catch a plane. If the investigator can manage to not be noticed, sticking with them might be very fruitful. If he gets noticed, that could lead to a sudden severe depression and he should DEFINITELY stay out of motels.
COMMENT #811 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 5/21/2005 @ 8:51 pm PT...
Hi
My monthly check-in.
I don't have any thoughts on the "big powers' just the immediate scenes.
To sum it up-two possibilities, 1. suicide 2. suicided
1. suicide---perhaps and this has been the'official' conclusion. But there are conflicts in timing and sense. 06:10 phone call en route-verified by phone co. log-- Lemme called ! But how do we know?
Clift said so!!!
Good move, places Lemme en route, places Clift in Florida
But Lemme would have to drive at 81 MPH to be able to sign bank card item at 06:45---Why????
Why would Clift have to have an alibi for an employee not coming in to work?
Why would Lemme make a call that had no purpose?
2. suicided.
By hit men! Not likely hit men would not lay Lemme's things on the vanity so neatly. and his shoes placed neatly.
Take a chance on a hitman talking?
Most likely an insider job--someone who knows Lemme's compulsions.
Who?
Clift and or wife?
Two person job-at least. Lemme most likely disabled or already dead when brought into the hotel room.
Would take two to move him into the tub.
That would explain the choice of the arm vein--the basilic vein--to incise. Blood does not clot in the body so blood would drain from this wound if the upper body was higher than the cut. To add to this if one participant held Lemme's legs up, in the tub then additional blood from the lower body would also drain out via the vena cava to the neck veins, the innominate veins which have no valves, and communicate with the basilic v.
That is why his pants are left on, to aid in moving him and aid in elevating his legs.
A large enough pool of blood would lead to a conclusion of death by blood loss (self inflicted wound) even if he were already deceased. Especially by a non motivated VDP who concluded the crime scene investigation in a couple of hours.
COMMENT #812 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 5/24/2005 @ 9:35 am PT...
One thing that we haven't focused on too much is that Lemme checked into a room that backed to woods and through the woods is a truck stop.
We must assume that the suiciders intent to set up shop here at the fleabag was solely for easy entry and exit from the room to the highway. This fact lends much credibility to the planners knowing what they are doing.
Importantly, Curtis mentions that there were a lot of motels en route and if Lemme was going to commit his own suicide he need not have been so...picky. So WHY this one? Well, they all have a lot in common but I'll bet this truckstop "perk" is what sets the fleabag out on it's own. Lemme would not have needed that perk would he?
Wonder if the truck stop keeps security films.
Casolaro, typically the same misspelling is the same person - a fingerprint kind of thing. I have a friend who always puts the e before i.
Will look around at the Alltel stuff too...
COMMENT #813 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 6/7/2005 @ 9:11 am PT...
Room #132 at the fleabag backed up to woods and beyond that a truck stop!!
Of course! That would explain why the fleabag and that room was chosen. I would assume that there was a back road from the truck stop to the fleabag. Is that so?
Fairly private location and easy to bring a body in without being observed? Probably no security cameras?
As for Charlies (first thread) objections:
1. credit card --not needed on the first --check in--item. There was no referal to a credit card, unless I am overlooking something.
2. Bruise vrs. shadow. The light source for the camara was from its flash, if there was something in the way to cast a shadow it would also be seen in the picture.
Also the inspection of the body could not have been very thorough. A statement was made that the body was removed from the tub and placed on the floor to be inspected.
Dripping wet? Not much floor area in the tub area. Hit shirt and pants (dripping wet) would have to be removed. The body would have to be rotated to inspect all body parts. On the floor?! This was a quick dry-lab deal.
Should have been done by a medical examiner in a proper setting.
But the body was released to the mortuary and investigation basically concluded in a few hours.
At best it is sloppy technique.
No mention of blood toxicology studies.
Sloppy and inadequate.
COMMENT #814 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 6/7/2005 @ 9:12 am PT...
Room #132 at the fleabag backed up to woods and beyond that a truck stop!!
Of course! That would explain why the fleabag and that room was chosen. I would assume that there was a back road from the truck stop to the fleabag. Is that so?
Fairly private location and easy to bring a body in without being observed? Probably no security cameras?
As for Charlies (first thread) objections:
1. credit card --not needed on the first --check in--item. There was no referal to a credit card, unless I am overlooking something.
2. Bruise vrs. shadow. The light source for the camara was from its flash, if there was something in the way to cast a shadow it would also be seen in the picture.
Also the inspection of the body could not have been very thorough. A statement was made that the body was removed from the tub and placed on the floor to be inspected.
Dripping wet? Not much floor area in the tub area. Hit shirt and pants (dripping wet) would have to be removed. The body would have to be rotated to inspect all body parts. On the floor?! This was a quick dry-lab deal.
Should have been done by a medical examiner in a proper setting.
But the body was released to the mortuary and investigation basically concluded in a few hours.
At best it is sloppy technique.
No mention of blood toxicology studies.
Sloppy and inadequate.
COMMENT #815 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 6/7/2005 @ 9:17 am PT...
sorry about the double 'submit' but I waited 5 min and thought the first was a fail.
COMMENT #816 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 6/9/2005 @ 7:02 am PT...
There was a path from the back of the fleabag to the truck stop. Curtis noted that the room was some 50-60ft from that path. If there is actually a path then it gets heavy use - best to be a few doors down from the path to reduce witness opportunities. Now that I think of it, bet there were some witnesses at the truck stop...regulars.
COMMENT #817 [Permalink]
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Rix Dobbs
said on 6/15/2005 @ 2:54 pm PT...
To all: Raymond Lemme was my step-brother. My mother and I have just learned of this blog and the contraversey surrounding his death. I have gathered the 274 pages of blog to print for my mother to read. She also wants to see the photos. We both will read every word here. Thanks you for your concerns. We especially want to reveal the truth here 'all the way to the top' and to see justice be done.
Rix Dobbs
COMMENT #818 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 6/27/2005 @ 10:34 am PT...
Hi Rix, a huge welcome to you! I know I speak for everyone when I say, we are sorry for your family's loss. And, we are here to help in any way if we can. You will find that we have considered everyone a suspect at one point or another (including your mom), don't be alarmed - we just tried to leave no stone unturned.
Also, in addition to these 817 comments, we had a lengthy discussion on another thread as well. Please also feel free to contact Brad personally --- if he can help you in any way.
If I had one question to ask it would be: Do you know if your mom ever got the address book back and the suicide note? Were the edges of the note book pages squared or rounded? Was the suicide note edge different? As you will read, we have seen that most of the pages in the address book were of one style while the suicide note page was different. That led us to believe that it was not Ray who wrote the note then and there. He would not have needed to bring a separate sheet if he had his book right there with him. This was a huge smoking gun for us.
COMMENT #819 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 6/30/2005 @ 10:05 am PT...
Whoops sorry Rix! I meant we'd left no stone unturned including Ray's wife - not your mom!!
COMMENT #820 [Permalink]
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Cole...
said on 7/18/2005 @ 2:34 pm PT...
Heck, a silly question but perhaps one which should be asked--did Ray use glasses for reading or writing?
COMMENT #821 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 10/31/2006 @ 3:42 pm PT...