READER COMMENTS ON
"Rights Win, Haters Lose"
(17 Responses so far...)
COMMENT #1 [Permalink]
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All Facts Support My Positions
said on 9/26/2010 @ 4:58 pm PT...
COMMENT #2 [Permalink]
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renzoku bb.com
said on 9/26/2010 @ 5:09 pm PT...
Dude. Seriously. It IS nice to see something good happen. Just the same, it's craziness to be this crazy happy about the Titanic moving one little inch away from the ice berg.
COMMENT #3 [Permalink]
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Paul
said on 9/26/2010 @ 5:37 pm PT...
Brad, I am not trying to be provocative, honestly. I'm just feeling "back here" trying to figure out why it's good that anybody is in the military. Look at history. Military forces have been the muscle for imperialism and rich people's fortunes. Why is it a victory that anybody still wants to perpetuate these things?
I'm always glad when there's equality for marginalzed people in any society, but what's the gain here? They get to prop up anti-democratic plutocrats and imperialists at the risk of their lives.
COMMENT #4 [Permalink]
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renzoku bb.com
said on 9/26/2010 @ 6:43 pm PT...
COMMENT #5 [Permalink]
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karen
said on 9/26/2010 @ 7:02 pm PT...
@PAul - good perspective but unfortunately until we stop imperializing, the military has actually been an institution for forward progress of our country. It's a giant perverse jobs program, it is one of the few orgs that is not that racist and tends to be more objective about promotions etc, and now it will be an institution respecting open gay people.
Our country's history is full of contradictions like this. America in the late 1700s was force for genocide and slavery. And yet, I think the world was/is better off for the fact the colonies revolted and established our Republic. The slavery and genocide would have likely happened whether land was ruled by Brits or a democracy that included local slave owners. However, I believe, the Constitution, even with slavery as part of it, was a step forward.
While I agree that we should never lose sight of the ways we are still so far from right, I feel we should also always celebrate anytime we right our way.
I agree with Brad, rights win. As Lincoln said, we should keep the faith that Right makes Might.
When exhorting citizens to not let slavery expand to free territories, Lincoln said:
"If our sense of duty forbids this, then let us stand by our duty, fearlessly and effectively...
LET US HAVE FAITH THAT RIGHT MAKES MIGHT, AND IN THAT FAITH, LET US, TO THE END, DARE TO DO OUR DUTY AS WE UNDERSTAND IT.
COMMENT #6 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 9/26/2010 @ 7:59 pm PT...
Paul - I despise the way the fossil fuel industry conducts business. Arguably, they have caused as much, if not more, harm to the world as good.
Nonetheless, I have nothing aginst the rank and file man and woman who work for them, to feed their family by way of an honest day's pay.
Yet, if these despicable companies were to discriminate against anybody and deprive them of their Constitutional rights to equal protection under the law, I would call them out for it, and then celebrate when they were ordered to end that heinous act by a court of law.
My celebration that rights eventually win out for those who choose to serve in the military has nothing to do with my respect, or disrespect, for the institution itself. (Or even the institution of marriage, for that matter.) That can be left for another blog item (or not) someday.
This item is meant by way of noting that our Constitutional principles are solid enough to withstand even the most hate filled, well-funded campaigns aimed at destroying them --- even though, as I note in the piece, it often takes far too long for the rights of the minority to win out over the tyranny of the majority. But win they do and will.
COMMENT #7 [Permalink]
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Ernest A. Canning
said on 9/26/2010 @ 8:12 pm PT...
It is important to note that Witt vs. U.S. Department of Air Force [PDF] presents a narrow and limited approach --- at least when compared to Judge Phillips Sept. 9 decision [PDF] in Log Cabin Republicans vs. United States and Judge Walker's ruling [PDF] in Perry vs. Schwarzenegger
In Witt the court decided the case on the basis of a substantive due process argument that is analogous to the right of privacy which gave rise to Roe v. Wade, noting.
The Ninth circuit enunciated a constitutional test that must be applied to DADT. Because DADT constitutes an ‘intrusion upon the personal liberties and private lives of homosexuals…it is subject to heightened scrutiny. To survive plaintiff’s constitutional challenge, the statute must, (1) advance an important governmental interest, (2) the intrusion must significantly further that interest, and (3) the intrusion must significantly further that interest.
While substantive due process was mentioned in Log Cabin Republicans, that case turned on very different grounds--the First Amendment rights of homosexual service members.
Neither Witt nor Log Cabin Republicans entailed application of the Equal Protection clause to the DADT. In Perry, Judge Walker found that California's ban on same sex marriage violated the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment.
Witt is a much more narrow decision than Log Cabin Republicans. Witt notes that the 9th Circuit imposed a case-by-case basis for determining whether the statute meets the three pronged test for a specific individual basis to “avoid making unnecessarily broad constitutional judgments.”.
This means that there may well be cases in which the government can meet the three pronged test, in which case an individual service member could still be discharged under DADT.
If AG Holder were to accept Judge Phillips ruling in Long Cabin Republicans, however, it would be the death knell to DADT in all cases because her ruling includes a permanent injunction against enforcement.
In Perry, Judge Walker applied the strictest form of scrutiny to Prop 8 in his equal protection analysis, but ruled that Prop 8 would not survive the lowest form of scrutiny--rational basis test.
The fact that the 9th Circuit applied a heightened scrutiny but not strict scrutiny in Wittt does not mean that it would disagree with Judge Walker in Perry as the lack of a state interest in preventing same sex couples from enjoying an equal right to marry is fundamentally different from the military's claimed interest in unit cohesion.
There is a good chance that the 9th Circuit will not even reach the substantive issues and will ultimately dismiss the appeal in Perry for lack of standing.
COMMENT #8 [Permalink]
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Paul
said on 9/27/2010 @ 7:26 am PT...
Point well taken, Brad. I agree that, in the end, Right Makes Might. This is a breath of fresh air in the present political clinate. I just hope the republic lasts that long.
COMMENT #9 [Permalink]
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Carlyle Moulton
said on 9/27/2010 @ 8:07 am PT...
Brad.
This is not the appropriate thread for it so I ask you to start a new thread to discuss it and I will repost on that new thread.
TV Network Channel 7 has recently broadcast a deceptively edited program on alleged security weaknesses at the Commonwealth Games site in Delhi that is a masterpiece of dishonesty analogous to O'Keefe Breitbart Acorn tapes.
This Australian Broadcasting Commission Media Watch transcript is of a program that deconstructs the Channel 7 program.
Everything said in the Channel 7 program is actually true to the letter while the implications that a viewer would take from it if he does not parse the words with the skepticism of an opposing lawyer are completely false.
e
COMMENT #10 [Permalink]
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Carlyle Moulton
said on 9/27/2010 @ 8:09 am PT...
The Channel 7 mentioned in my previous post is the Australian Channel 7 network.
COMMENT #11 [Permalink]
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Roo
said on 9/27/2010 @ 9:27 am PT...
Is this article a joke?
Hey Brad, what part of Military Commissions Act did you not understand?
Our rights are gone and Obama won't be giving them back.
COMMENT #12 [Permalink]
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Shiva
said on 9/27/2010 @ 9:56 am PT...
I am very happy to see this turn of events and I hope for a proper outcome to this ridiculous issue.
Who among us has the right to pick and choose who is less a human than anyone else? I am not gay but I really don't care if people are. None of my business and they are no different than I am. It is absolutely absurd in the year 2010 that we are arguing about who is gay and who is not. This is stone age stuff.
COMMENT #13 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 9/27/2010 @ 1:21 pm PT...
Roo said:
Is this article a joke?
Hey Brad, what part of Military Commissions Act did you not understand?
Our rights are gone and Obama won't be giving them back.
What part of inalienable rights are not Obama's to either take or "give...back" do you not understand?
COMMENT #14 [Permalink]
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Alex
said on 9/28/2010 @ 12:03 am PT...
This was a bit confusing to me. I'd like to think that human rights win out, and I'm sure there has been some progress - but I hear other voices telling me that a lot of rights have been taken away in the last few years.
COMMENT #15 [Permalink]
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Joco Glavonja
said on 9/28/2010 @ 4:15 am PT...
Rights Win, Haters Lose. Yes, I agree but I am not sure that everybody have right to have rights...
COMMENT #16 [Permalink]
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Rig
said on 9/28/2010 @ 6:33 pm PT...
I look forward to the day when sexual deviants are allowed to adopt children and serve openly in the military. I can't believe that anyone would condemn or oppose this! I am in the Navy and I want our homosexuals to be free to tell us about their sexual deviation and I want them to be loud and proud! I want to be able to look around me and 24/7 on a 6 month deployment and take comfort in knowing that the people who I'm working closely with and sharing living quarters with are sexual deviants. I want them to be able to walk around on the boat all day long proclaiming their deviation for me and all of my fellow honorable service members to hear, including the Captain, the Commodore and all of the marines on the boat! I will not rest until sexual deviants are practicing their deviation openly, loud and proud, in full military uniform. Dear God please get them into the service. And to those of you that are in the service having to conceal your sexual deviation; thank you for your service! We're gonna make sure you can be open, it might take some more work, but we'll make it happen!!! God bless you guys
COMMENT #17 [Permalink]
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Brad Friedman
said on 9/28/2010 @ 7:11 pm PT...
Rig - Apparently you didn't read the article. You lost this one. The U.S. Constitution trumps the hate and paranoia and psycho-sexual dysfunction of folks like yourself.
Sorry. Perhaps you can sign up for the military in a country who accepts haters and homophobes like yourself. I understand the Afghan army is looking for a few good men. So is the Taliban. Sounds like you'd be well qualified for both.
See ya. Oh, and P.S. You lost.