Im sure this is just the tip of the iceberg in Iraq. And no, I would never expect our media to cover it. You might see it on the BBC though

Sad... just sad. I really feel for the families of these people. Perhaps more tragic are the thousands of times this story can be retold. It's disturbing how proud the soldiers are upon observing the dead bodies. "Nice... nice... nice shooting.." etc.

Here is a story of more military atrocity cover-ups.

Honestly, what are we doing? What are we accomplishing?

Caught this video very early this morning and subsequently spent half the day weeping. Now calm, breathing, but clammy, damp and nauseous from heartbreak.

We just lost this war. This video is the beginning of the end.

Just for factual clarity, it does appear that 2 or maybe 3 of the guys milling about do have guns; though none appear to be engaged in combat. The beginning of the fuck up occurs with the errant conclusion that the cameras are weapons and the ultimate determination that one is an RPG being readied for firing.

Once they made that initial errant decision, the blinders were on for anything contrary to killing everyone in sight.

The costs of war are excrutiating and people need to see just what we get when we - too casually, in my opinion - make these decisions to go to war.

In focusing on this atrocity, one must not lose sight of the fact that our very presence in Iraq is an atrocity.

For those who haven't seen it, I would highly recommend the Aug. 7, 2007 Democracy Now segment entitled, "Freedom Next Time: Filmmaker & Journalist John Pilger on Propaganda, the Press, Censorship and Resisting the American Empire."

One of the oldest clichés of war is that truth is the first casualty. No it’s not. Journalism is the first casualty….

...But the longer I stayed in Vietnam, the more I realized that our atrocities were not isolated, nor were they aberrations, but the war itself was an atrocity. That was the big story, and it was seldom news. Yes, the tactics and effectiveness of the military were questioned by some very fine reporters. But the word “invasion” was never used. The anodyne word used was “involved.” America was involved in Vietnam. The fiction of a well-intentioned, blundering giant, stuck in an Asian quagmire, was repeated incessantly. It was left to whistleblowers back home to tell the subversive truth, those like Daniel Ellsberg and Seymour Hersh, with his scoop of the My-Lai massacre. There were 649 reporters in Vietnam on March 16, 1968—the day that the My-Lai massacre happened—and not one of them reported it.

In both Vietnam and Iraq, deliberate policies and strategies have bordered on genocide.

blowing the shit out of them over there so we can create the next generation of terrorist to justify the profits over here !

Macswain @#5 "when we make these decisions to go to war."

Last time "We the People made the decision to "go to war" in the constitutional sense: it was World War 2. The prophecy of futility is faulty. Love will guide the stars.

words seem superfluous after watching evil done in our name. Why have so many movies, tv shows and video games glorified mindless senseless killing for so long? Made it fun to murder, cool to casually take a life? the fact that our military is chock full of brainwashed killing machines that get their kicks executing innocent unarmed defenseless civillians is no accident. We breed these psychopaths intentionally. This video is SOP and makes the top brass proud.

Welcome to hell. The madness is entrenched but it is not all powerful. Love and truth and wikileaks and some brave among us putting our bodies on the levers and gears can overcome thus insanity. We must step up our game.

9/11 truth ends war.

it is with some shame and self loathing that i have been watching some of the college hoops title game. Bad habits die hard. So much more important issues need attention, action. But I have also been checking in with Rachel, hoping against hope. But alas, no mention. We should all at minimum donate to wikileaks

MSNBC/Dylan Ratigan covers it:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31510813/#36182090

Video games are not to blame. It is never going to be "cool" to take a life, or "fun" to murder. It is only fun when you know it isn't real, that people really aren't being hurt, and that you can start over again if you get killed. I don't think that extrapolates into the real world as well as some people would believe. When you are playing a game it affects you in a totally different manner than the same exact things would in real life. It is more akin to a game of paintball or lasertag.

I saw an interview on RT today with WikiLeaks editor, Julian Assange. It was about this very subject.

I am shocked and disappointed by this inhumane disgrace, but I am not at all surprised. Having studied the militarization of Central America from the 50's to the 80s, I am sad to say that this kind of thing is far more common than we might like to believe.

The tragedy about things like this is that accountability doesnt seem to factor into the discussion until much, much later (if it ever is sought at all.) That’s the case anywhere, whether it involves the US military or otherwise.

Compared to other similar tragedies (eg, those authored by the Regan-backed Guatemalan military during the 1980s), this particular assault has come to light somewhat faster (and thanks to the editors at WikiLeaks for that.)

In 1981, the Atlacatl Battalion, a Salvadorean military outfit trained, armed and funded by the US, assaulted the village of El Mozote and murdered hundreds of innocent people. The victims were burned, dumped into mass graves, piled into latrines, etc... The battalion was under supervision by US generals from Ft. Benning, GA, who were allegedly based in San Salvador at the time of the attack.

The Regan-Bush Administration initially denied that any such massacre ever happened, despite hair-raising testimony by the few people who survived. As evidence piled up, the Administration later changed its story to say that the deaths resulted from a gun-fight between the Salvadorean military and FMLN Rebels. They claimed that the victims' testimonies (that villagers were rounded up and killed by one military group) was based in confusion caused by trauma.

In 1992, Anthropologist Clyde Snow helped lead an Argentinian team of forensic specialists to investigate the area. The investigation verified the claims made by the survivors of the massacre, and dismissed any equivocation by Reagan or Bush.

The massacre in El Mozote proved to be a systematic murder that involved executing people in groups (men, women, children and babies.) The only bullets found in the remains of the victims were those supplied by the US and its contractors.

For more than a decade, the Regan-Bush continuum denied that any massacre happened, and accused those who were asking questions about it of being “unpatriotic”. It took 10 years and a qualified forensic team to bring the truth to light.

But ask yourselves, how many Americans who lived during the massacre of El Mozote, --or even those who were adults at the time,– how many of them know this happened?

How many know that it was their own tax-dollars that went to burn the Morazon Province (as well as countless other places in about 6 different areas around the globe?) I was a teenager when it happened. I didnt learn about it until I was in college.

9/11, Building 7, Pentagon , Tax Dollars, Profits, Torture, Banks, Guantanamo Bay, Bagram, Patriot Act, Bailouts, Cetral Banks, False left-right paradigm, media whores, Glenn Beck, Keith Olberman, Sean Hannity, Racheal Maddow, Tri lateral Commission, Council on Foreign Relations, United Nations, Global Warming Hoax, Police State, Fema, CIA, Homeland Security, microchips, food, and water....

I wish you all felt the same.

Remember who sent them there camusrebel #9. They are the real mental heads.

I saw the video, and I saw weapons. This is some stupid stuff that HR nuts are having a S#itstorm with

I'd like to add that 139 Combat Journalists have been killed since this war began. Tough Shit if you're hanging out, taking pictures of the enemy.

I've watched this video a few times now and I think there are two clear "events" within it. The first event involves the group of individuals walking towards the corner of the courtyard. It is clear from the video that at least two or three of the individuals are carrying AK 47 assault rifles and one looks as though he's caring an RPG. The other individuals who are with them are clearly associating with them but appear in the main to be unarmed. It is clear that the soldiers saw the camera's but in the heat of the moment wrongly judged them to be weapons. The rules of engagement appear here to justify the Apache crews engaging. I sympathise with the journalists having lost their lives, but they were in a war zone. They chose to associate with insurgents and did not tell the military that they were there. Sad but that's war.

The second event I think is much harder to justify. The shooting had stopped by that time. The armed insurgents appear to be all dead apart from one individual who was lying injured with no weapons nearby. the rules of war and the Geneva convention prohibits the killing of an injured man be they a combatant or otherwise. The Apache crew knew that which is why they wanted him to pick up a weapon so they could justify shooting him.
I understand completely why they would not want outsiders to come in and remove bodies and weapons as this would allow the insurgents to claim that civilians had been killed. The insurgents have done this countless times before and this makes for very bad reporting in the media and undermines the war effort. This is probably why, when the van arrived they assumed that that was going to happen. They forgot about the rules of war and their obligation to protect noncombatants. In fact all the new arrivals did was attempt to carry an injured man to the side of the truck, possibly in order to take him to hospital but that is not clear. They did not in fact remove any bodies or even attempt to remove any bodies or weapons. None of the new arrivals appeared to be armed in any way. The information that was given to the senior officer was inadequate for him to make the right decision based on the actual facts. They said that the new arrivals were collecting bodies and in fact initially said that they were collecting bodies and weapons (perhaps what they were expecting them to do). Based on this inadequate and inaccurate information the soldiers were given permission to fire. For this reason I believe that somebody needs to be held accountable, be it to a court of law or other hearing so that the full facts can be heard. If this results in soldiers being acquitted of any wrongdoing then at least it would have been heard in the correct forum. As it stands all we are facing is a trial by media which never achieves anything!

earlier I suggested donating to Wikileaks, now i'm not so sure. Wondering what my fellow BB'ers think about Wayne Madsen who has a disturbing take on them. Lots of accusations of spy games, early CIA connections, Mossad, Soros, hacking China, manipulating US elections(helping Franken beat Coleman).

In the past I have found Madsen to be above average in reliability. What say others?

CamusRebel asked:

In the past I have found Madsen to be above average in reliability. What say others?

Um, to put it kindly, I would suggest just the opposite. Madsen is dangerously unreliable in my opinion. And, again, I am putting that nicely. Could say much more, but won't. Hope that helps.

thanks Brad. I started to have doubts when he over hyped the flu/vaccine thing. Lately he is saying some earthquakes may be man made.

Hmmm. HARPA is a questionable venture, but...?

And, since I've already taken a turn down bizarre lane, what is the consensus here on chemtrails?

The aptly-named LaundryMan @18 said:

It is clear from the video that at least two or three of the individuals are carrying AK 47 assault rifles and one looks as though he's caring an RPG.

Perhaps I missed it, but I saw nobody carrying AK 47 assault rifles or RPG's. I saw only the two journalists with cameras.

Sounds like you may be doing a bit of laundry here. Lord knows the other commenter, Bryan, certainly is, even as he seems to be in favor of more attacks against the U.S. by favoring such outrageous and unnecessary assaults and massacres on a civilian population by our troops.

Just watched this. Feel sick.

I think this is the nature of war. Especially unclear war like this war. Soldiers get so freaked out about being killed because the people who are ostensibly on their side look exactly like the people who aren't. They see danger everywhere. The "enemy", which is a fluid boundary which can include any native at a moment's notice, are completely dehumanized. Rational thinking, like, what in the fuck would "insurgents" be standing out in the open with a U.S. gunship flying over them, is gone. Accidentally driving over one of "them" is cause for laughter. Shooting children is not your fault cuz those people wanted to blow you up. And on and on it goes. Madness. Very little thought. Gotta shoot 'em cause I'm so fucking freaked out of the very real possibility of dying here. Nightmare. I'm sick.

And then the sickness goes deeper with the denial and denial and lies and lies. I'm so ashamed.

Brad,

Watch around 3:45. The men in the video do appear to be swinging around large rifles. I don't know what else they could be.

Not that it justifies anything.

SR

re not knowing what else they can be, I've seen some say tripods for cameras.

Yeah, sorry Brad... you missed it. Look at the video again at 3:40 secs. The Apache crew say "Yep, he's got a weapon too" In the upper quadrant you see two individuals, one wearing a horizontal striped shirt. That guy is holding an AK47 by the trigger guard in his right hand, below waiste level. The guy directly to the right as you look at it is holding an RPG, you can see it quite clearly as he swings it round, that isn't a tripod.
Brad, you really should have read the entirety of my post before being silly and personal. My final comments were that someone should be held to account for this and not tried by the media. What's unreasonable about that?
The US rules of engagement allowed them to engage in the first part of this video. (I'm not saying that i agree with those rules). The Apache crew clearly misinterpreted the cameras as guns, you can hear it the commentary. They were wrong, but thats easy to see with hindsight. I've got to say when i first saw this video, i could have sworn that the guy by the wall crouching down was pointing an RPG down the street. It was only after i had watched it twice did i see that it was actually just a camera with a telephoto lens. And we all watched this video 'knowing' that the two guys were journalists and were carrying cameras. Wikileaks prompted us about that from the start. The Apache crew didn't know that and didn't get a rerun opportunity. (I'm just trying to be fair and non judgemental, after all we are only seeing one angle of the whole affair. Not that i'm trying to defend the actions taken, far from it).

The second part of the incident, the shooting of the 'bongo' truck, is a different matter entirely. Even if we were generous and gave the Apache crew the benefit of the doubt over the misinterpretation of weapons it is clear that none of the new arrivals in the truck were armed. That is where I see a big problem in trying to defend the actions taken.

That said, with hindsight this whole incident is a grubby indictment of the 'gung ho', unprofessional attitude shown by many in the military. (or certainly in many of the youtube vids i've seen). This trigger happy attitude does nothing but damage the reputation of the US in the eyes of the world and casts a dark shadow over attempts to maintain the moral high ground in the war on terror. Something needs to be done at a grass roots level in the military to stop this 'shoot first ask questions later' attitude. It doesn't help when you see masses of videos on youtube overlaid with heavy metal music glorifying the killing of people (regardless of whether they are insurgents / terrorists or innocents.) The west needs to win the war of hearts and minds, and videos like this one just undermine it.

On a slightly diferent note. Although Wikimedia appear to have done a service by getting this video out, i'm a touch concerned at their 'editing' pratices. I would have preferred to have seen this video in its entirety and unedited. For example, the part where the crew say "Well thats their fault for bringing kids into a battle" (or words to that effect), a cut of about 20-30 seconds appears to have been made just prior to it. (The Apache seems to have made at least one loop of the scene). Nothing may have been said, nothing of significance may have taken place... or it might have had the crews expressing some remorse over the kids, before ending the conversation with "... their fault for bringing kids into a battle". Who knows. I'd prefer to see the whole thing and make my own mind up. What was the point of editing it? Instead, all i now think is that Wikileaks are trying to put this horrible video in the worst possible light it can. I hope they release the whole thing.

Take another look at that part of the video and make your own mind up.

Oops, I said wikimedia, i meant Wikileaks. Sorry.

This brilliant woman, an MD, with an Iraqi father, her mother a Jewish American, and her awareness, and eloquence will move you. You'll love her.

http://www.youtube.com/w...;feature=player_embedded

I pretty much agree with Laundryman #18 and #27. Given the situation our troops find themselves in, I think the first attack on the group of men with guns/rpgs even though the camera was mistaken as an RPG, was justified.

I don't think the shooting of the guys picking up the wounded guy was justified, although on a different forum I frequent, a retired military guy talked about how even wounded are viable targets on an active field of battle, as long as the battle hasn't advanced past them.

In any case, the problem with the Iraq war isn't with the troops shooting groups of men with ak47's and rpgs and cameras, its the entire premise of the war itself. There will ALWAYS be tragedy and unnecessary death in war, which is why war should never be 'optional' as it was for bush in choosing to invade Iraq. I place the blame for the death of any innocents in Iraq squarely on the shoulders of bush, as he was the one who gave orders (with the approval of congress who ALSO shares the blame) to invade.

Thanks for the agreement Disllusioned. There's something else that you guys need to see in order to try and put this whole thing in the right context. It doesn't, as i've already said, necessarily justify the attack on the 'bongo' truck. But it partly goes along with the main thing that Brad missed, the weapons:

Start watching the clip at about 3:35 (2:10 on the full version) and concentrate on the two guys i mentioned before, the horizontal striped shirt guy and the one standing to the right (as you look at them). Watch it a few times and then someone come back and tell me what you see. Remember, concentrate on those guys. I won't say what i saw so as to not 'lead you on'. In the inbterests of impartiality, make your own minds up. Watch it until about 4:02 (2:28 on the full version).

Now i mentioned the full version, which is a lot longer than the edited one, and also covers an attack later carried out on a building using Hellfire missiles. If you put the entire context of the video into perspective it appears that prior to the video, the Apaches and ground forces were taking small arms fire from insurgents in this area. Still doesn't necessarily justify the 'bongo' truck event, but places the incident more into context. I really don't think that wikileaks do themselves any favors by deliberately putting a slant on things and cutting out relevent material from their 'shorter' version, the one used by all the media outlets. As horrible and damning as this video is, lets see the whole truth, not just what wikileaks want us to see. Yes, they did release the full video (or did they?) but it wasn't on the wikileaks website.

Just to set things straight, i firmly beleive that there needs to be a war on terror and extremism (ALL extremism), but let's get that war right!