Have been watching the Senate Judiciary Committee Hearings on warrantless domestic NSA wire-tapping all morning (since 6:30am PT!)
All of the Cable News Channels are ignoring them for the most part. You can watch them on C-SPAN and via their website.
Feel free to use this thread to post your thoughts on the hearings. Mine: Alberto Gonzales should be investigated.
UPDATE: C-SPAN will rerun the hearings in full beginning at 8pm ET. Crooks & Liars has the opening salvo where the Republicans fought to keep Gonzales from testifying under oath (and they won). Scroll further down his page for some other high/lowlights from the hearings. Though the best parts came late in the day. Hopefully he’ll have some up later. Or perhaps we will.
Leahy knows the thugs are lying. He is pissed.
Craig Paul Roberts wrote an excellent article "Blind Ignorance" which explains exactly the thinking going on in this country. I am not an attorney, but the prez is breaking the law. No one is above the law!
The beautiful thing about this is that Bush indicted himself last year.
As Gore pointed out in his talk, Bush made several speeches in 2005 in which he volunteered the reminder that spying (I think he said "surveillance"
requires a warrant. No exceptions. He used no
qualifying language.
All the Senators have to do is play a tape of any of those speeches. It’s a slam dunk on the law and on the facts. The only remaining question is, "Do these guys have the guts to impeach?" Specter is starting to sound as if he might agree to explore it, at least.
Sen. Durbin was very good. He started by noting the Administration’s repeated characterization of FISA as ‘a useful tool,’ a characterization that reflected a mindset that laws are things to be chosen and used at will. FISA is a constraint, not a tool, noted Durbin. Lots of other great stuff, too.
this is why God made video..some of this needs a slowww replay. Gonzo keeps stressing ONLY "this program", very specific, so keep an eye on ’em! Sen.Lindsey Graham came out for the need for checks’n’balances..and Sen.Durbin was questioned by gannon-guckert(!?)in the Press Brief. See vid link at DU. I’m expecting tough questions from Sen.Russ Feingold,coming up..
Mr.bush,anything Gonzo says can be held against you all. Visualize IMPEACHMENT~===]
The gutlessness of some republicans amazes me.
George Bush broke the law when he authorized domestic spying.
I think the New York Times broke the law when they leaked information on domestic spying!
This warrantless domestic wiretapping programme is a violation of our Constitution and traditions of freedom.
I think Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein violated our freedom on 9/11!
It compromises the civil liberties of American citizens.
You don’t have civil liberties when you’re DEAD!
.
Good thing Feingold, Leahy, and Durbin are digging deep and Gonzo is tripping over his own words.
If gonzales can’t put his PAW on the bible (*) I don’t want hear a Fucking thing this Liar has to say!
These Bastards will stand on the bible all day *(not that it will make a difference)
Robert Re: #3 – The decision was made by the "committee" not to allow video tape to be used in the hearing.
So, during the break, some of the Senators ran the video of Bush’s speech where he said "wiretaps require warrants, that hasn’t changed", and the one of Gonzales confirmation hearings where he said (paraphrasing here) that Bush had not used his authority as President to get around any laws (I’m sure the actual Gonzales clip is floating around on the net somewhere, and Crooks and Liars had the Bush clip a week or so ago)
I heard the Gonzales refused to be sworn in. He came to testify but would not swear to tell the truth. In other words, he came to lie. He should be thrown in jail right now!
Thank, Brad, for posting that link! I probably should have found it when I went to CSPAN’s site but I was too distracted & missed it..damn!
Actually Gonzales said he had no objection to being sworn in. Some of the Senators made it very clear that they wanted to swear him in, others said that it’s illegal to lie in front of Congress anyway so swearing in was not needed, and they considered it an insult to suggest that he might not have the integrity to answer the questions truthfully.
I ’bout spewed my coffee on that one.
Then they took a vote on whether to swear him in or not, and the "not necessary to put him under oath" group won.
Yeah, thanks Brad – we were messing up the other thread with so many off-topic posts.
If gonzales can’t put his PAW on the bible (*) I don’t want hear a Fucking thing this Liar has to say!
These Bastards will stand on the bible all day *(not that it will make a difference)
{ed note: Disinformation deleted.}
Any congressman or federal employee whom even attempts to justify or support Bush/Cheney’s illegal NSA phone taps should be guilty of a crime. NSA wire taps violate all legal precedents, the rule of law and our Constitution.
They all "know" the cast of characters invovled in a
similar plot during Gerald Fords adminstration in
1975. Then Bush Sr. was the head of the CIA. Then, like now, Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld all tried to justify illegal phone taps. As a result of there questionable actions the 1978 law was passed. Senator Roberts knows that and yet continues to say Bush Jr./Cheney’s actions in 2004/05 are legal ??? It didn’t wash in 1975 and won’t work now.
Bush Jr. and Cheney both should be impeached and
prosecuted.
Rumsfeld others involved should be removed from office and prosecuted to the full extend the law allows.
Senator Pat Roberts and Intelligence Committee
members, Attorney General Gonzales and federal lawyers whom supported or "supposably approved" these wire taps all should immediately be forced to resign both the office, committee postion and/or senate seat they hold for supporting such illegal garbage. They should be prosecuted to the full extend the laws allow.
Let them all play drop the soap in the shower with the common folks.
"Face it, if the dems win this round (which I don’t think they will) they weaken the country. To be a dem liberal you have to be against spying on terrorists and for the Al Queada Bill of Rights."
See, it may weaken YOUR FACIST NATION, but keeping the Government on a short leash is what PRESERVES OUR FREEDOMS..
I especially like your FALSE DICHOTOMY in the second sentence.. what a jackass you are to imply being against spying on AMERICANS is to support Al-Qaeda.. Guess how BUILT Al-Qaeda, moron?.. Rumsfeld and his ilk trying to manipulate the world and bend nations to their will. They CREATED TERRORISTS.. get it?
And this investigation is into things NOT related to terrorism.. See, you want to paint the picture of "hey, they are just spying on terrorists.. why is that wrong?" but the FACTS are, they are spying on A LOT MORE THAN TERRORISTS.. get it, moron? They are spying on people who have NOTHING to do with terrorism.. is that ok with you? (of course it is, you support a facist nation).
"Also, i asked someone on another thread on this blog last week that if this country is like nazi Germany and George Bush is the head of the Gestapo (or KGB) why is she still around and not in an internment or "re-education camp" and she couldn’t answer me? Why not? Do libs really think this country is so bad?"
Another false dichotomy from a prick with an agenda.. Do you think the gass houses in Germany were there before national support for a facist state was in place? or do you realize that the facist state was built and supported first (by people like you), THEN the camps and houses were built to put people that disagreed with the state.. you know, those "dems" and "libs" and such that your psycho pundit Ann wants put in camps.
Just like there were no terrorists in Iraq -before- we went in and now there are shit-loads.. people like you are too flippin ignorant to stop and look at root causes. You just have your agenda that suits your personal needs, then ram that down the throats of everyone around you. Only, here.. in America, that’s illegal. You can’t take away the rights of others to benifit yourself (in theory). What "dems" and "libs" and "progressives" and the like are trying to do is keep you criminally minded bafoons from destroying this country. I know you keep tooting your horn about how "you care about this country", but clearly your actions are counter to your words.. and when someone says one thing and does another, we ignore what they say and chalk up the rhetoric to being "lies".. you know, the things your President keeps spewing to try and dodge the FACT that he keeps BREAKING THE LAW…?
Jim Madison, FreedomFighter ™,
Why don’t you just say it: George Bush should dissolve the ineffective congress and deport all liberals and dissenters.
"Real Freedom Fighter" #14… question…. who’s war are we fighting?
Try Israel.
We (America) are killing our military, destroying our equipment and spending our tax dollars because Israel doesn’t have the military might or money to do it. This war has nothing to do with 9/11 and protecting America from terrorists.
This is Israels war against the Muslims. Iran is next ……then??????????
Plus>>> benefit for Cheney, Bush Sr & Jr, Wolferwitz, Pearl and Rice etc. is the arms sales and hundreds of billions of dollars in cash thrown arround Iraq … and disappearing as fast as it arrives.
Wake up and figure this out..
Jeff Sessions trots out the wife of a 9/11 victim. What a class act he is.
Nothing he says means crap without swearing in???? What the F is wrong with this congress to allow anyone to ‘testify’ without an oath is simply an invatation to lie. Gonzales lied to congress before and he’s doing it again now….and we can’t do crap because he didn’t swear in.
Fraudulent monkey’s (sorry to insult apes, they’re better then the criminals in power now)!
Will Mr. Real Freedom Fighter simply tell us why George W. Bush said more than once, voluntarily, that surveillance of American citizens requires a warrant, when at that very moment he knew his administration was conducting surveillance without a warrant?
Just answer that one question, please. Thank you.
It’s not so funny and really very disgusting how all these ‘christians’ (sorry God for using that term about them..it’s their description, obviously not the truth) won’t place their hand on a bible….most likely because if they did place their hand on the bible it would burst in flames, like holy water hitting the devil himself!
Democrats aren’t against spying, the pres can spy on suspects and has 72 hours to go to court after the deed. Apparently he’s spying where he shouldn’t or he would get his court orders. The laws are there and have been there. This creep is a criminal and he and his should all be in jail (including his murdering not so sweet hyprocrit wife).
Remember:
Baseball players – sworn in
Alberto Gonzales – not sworn in
Plus, I think he just soiled himself. He asked for a break after being questioned by Biden.
{ed note: Comment deleted. Personal insults, attacks against other commenters against the few rules that we have here for posting comments}
#22 That made me think of an episode of The Simpsons where sideshow Bob is vying for mayor of springfield and he meets up at the republican headquarters and he’s surrounded by the crazy texan guy, dracula, Ramier wolfcastle and a bunch of other buffoons. Sounds about right.
Jim Madison, Freedom Fighter(tm):
I was having trouble determining whether you are a troll or just completely ignorant. I think I have reached my conclusion.
Your expertise in arguing straw men may successfully disrupt and divert conversation here, but it has little bearing on reality.
The rest of your ilk are at least fun to toy with – you are simply not worth responding to.
Real Freedom Fighter,
Man your seriously diluted. When did they give you the lobotomy and the brainwash. Did they let you keep the little bit of brain they took out? You need to stop watching Fox and start paying attention to real news unless you like this country being run by criminals but I guess if your a criminal yourself it would make sense to describe Dems in such a way. Maybe you can explain why Gonzalez wouldn’t put his hand on the bible. Maybe because he couldn’t with right conscience lie to God. Maybe you have another amusing take on things. Keep it coming, it’s funny watching you guys try to qualify everything as "okay" when in all reality it is not.
Real Freedom Fighter" #14… question…. who’s war are we reaaaaaally fighting???????
Try Israel …… ISRAEL.
Again I say, America is killing USA Military, destroying USA equipment and spending USA tax dollars because the ancient Hebrew nation "Israel" doesn’t have the military might or money to do it. This war has nothing to do with 9/11, USA or protecting America from terrorists.
It’s Israels war… ISRAEL’s WAR…. that the USA is fighting. Our military die because a bunch of far right Republican Necon’s all members of the radical "New American Century" Neoconservative think tank (Wolferwitz, Cheney, Pearl, Rice, Bolton) all with ties to Israel political … groups planned, plotted for years to drag the USA into Israel’s war against the Muslims.
Again I say, this is Israels war against the Muslims. Iran is next ……then who … who’threatens Israel next?????????? Saudi Arabia??? Who’s next? When does this stop????
Plus>>> side benefit for Cheney, Bush Sr & Jr, Wolferwitz, Pearl and Rice etc. is the oil, arms sales and hundreds of billions of dollars in cash thrown arround Iraq … and disappearing as fast as it arrives. They all have ties to oil and munition companies.
Everyone on these sites writes all this stuff that obscures the facts … just to aggravate each other.
Focus… stay focused. Wake up and figure this out.
This thread is getting pretty bad. Real Freedom Fighter believes anything that the Bush admin. says, and somebody else just wants to blame America’s trouble on the Jews. Talk about Facist.
The real issue behind the NSA wire tapping, is the constant struggle between the separation of powers. This is nothing new. The three branches have been fighting over this for a long time. The problem is with interpretation, the constitution like the Bible leaves a lot up to interpretation.
That always causes heated debates, and there is no right answer for anything. There has never been a perfect government.
But there is a law on the books, enacted by congress, that says that Bush can not do what he did. So regardless of whether or not it is in the best interest of the country, and as it is laid out, I think that it is, it should still be regulated.
Bush says warrants are required and they wouldn’t do it without them — after authorizing warrantless searches. Warrants have been issued for an overwhelming number of requests prior to the illegal warrantless spying. 72 hours are allowed prior to requesting the warrant anyway. Of course, the administration practice is illegal and unconstitutional, and we are expected to acquiesce in such abuse of power, right? Won’t happen. There are some people who stand up for America.
And from this Real Fighter of Freedom goes off on hysterical pinball trajectories about liberals and Kennedy and we oppose spying on a-qaeda and we don’t care if al-qaeda bombs the country. Don’t be so scared and foolish, RFF. I’d hate to be in your quaking shoes.
Mills: If they played Bush a tape of himself saying spying is illegal, Bush would say, "That guy is lying", and all his Kook-Aid drinkers would go, "YEEEEAAAAHHHH! Bush is right! That guys’ lying! It’s liberal spin!.
Gonzalez is trying to compilicate things. It’s simple: Wiretapping without a warrant is illegal and against the constitution and against our civil liberties. PERIOD!
Don’t get caught up in the spaghetti-spin of his anwers, trying to "confuse" and complicate the issue. It’s simple. The Republicans are good at confusing and complicating the truth. That’s what rightwing media is all about. Read "The Republican Noise Machine" by David Brock.
There’s 2 rightwing attack strategies to combat the truth:
1. Confuse the issue by floating "alternate truths", which are lies.
2. Suppress the truth.
The israel crap gets real old.
And I’m surprised the Freedom Fighting Jim Madison didn’t bring up the 168 billion aborted babies in his unhinged ranting.
I seem to remember something about Spector (single bullet theory) almost not becoming head of this committee. He had to have a private meeting with bushco before he could head it. I will try to find something out there that says this. I thought at the time, he must of had to sell what was remaining of his soul to get this position. All the buildup the last few days about these hearings..gonna get to the bottom of this ya know.
Just another show for the sheep, nothing here, no substance, same rhetoric. I am a tiny bit surprised by the questions of some of the ‘r’s but then this spying kind of got to everyone and I am sure members, ALL members, of Congress were high on the list. Also, when bush gets his PA II, Congress may as well close the doors and go home. They are in a real awkward position. Wonder what will happen to K Street, they may as well close up too, who will need lobbyists, when we have a dictator. M4
Steve,
Test question!!!
Why do you think America’s dumping on Iraq?
Why are we here today discussing NSA line tapping.
Real Freedom Fighter wouldn’t answer my original question. So what about you? Any "street smarts" on how this all started in Iraq?
Think about it???????????????
G.
None of this matters.
The committee didn’t swear torture boy in.
Anything gonzo says is bullshit.
The senators know gonzo is FOS
The media know gonzo is FOS
This is nothing but a show.
And a damn poor one at that.
You know what, Bob? After thinking about it, they could play a video of Bush to Alberto Gonzalez, of Bush himself saying wiretapping is illegal, and Gonzalez and all the neo-cons and all their followers, would STILL not admit it! I’m not kidding!
Bush could be on the video, saying "Wiretapping is illegal, no if’s/and’s/or but’s" And they’d still say it’s OK. It’s not reality. The rightwingers have built an alternate reality. Up is down, left is right, breaking the law isn’t breaking the law. I don’t think anyone in their wildest dreams could’ve predicted our country would become like this. We all have to agree on what’s the truth.
***** THERE IS NOT 2 TRUTH’S *****
G.
Well I could blame it on oil, but that would be to easy. I could say that it goes back to a clash of cultures. But mostly I blame it on Americas need for power.
America is constantly trying to assert its power over the rest of the world. To do that military power is shown, and ecconomic strength. In order to maintain America as the lone super-power, it needs to continually re-assert dominance.
Starting with the Puritans, Americans have believed themselves to be the vanguard of morals, and truth. There is a need to promote these views to others, for the glory of God. And in an attempt to recreate a more perfect world, some believe that war is an option.
But there are lots of theories, lots of books. No right answer yet, because there has never been a utopia.
But please don’t over simplify the situation. Political Scientists will be debating this whole thing for years to come.
On NSA, Bush broke the law. The purpose behind government is power. Always power, this an example of the government trying to gain more.
If anyone named "Al’ calls tell em I’m not home & won’t be home in the near future. . . . .
If it is not sworn testimony, what is the benefit of listening to it?
Who the fuck are these idiots blaming all the jews!????
Oh that’s right….you are all NEOCONS…
You tried this same thing on Makow’s site, Cyte’s blog, and multiple other places.
That ain’t happening, get me? These so called wars are for the neocons and their Israel oil firsters.
That has nothing to do with Hebrews at all and it isn’t the jews fault ad infitum.
You guys are failing bad now, back to school and please let the door hit you on the way OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Keep it up everyone, they are trying their threats in broad daylight now and showing who they REALLY are. Oh and also lets get rid of the neocons in ohio, can we now please just deal with the real issue?
Ohio: too many neocons, not enough insurrection
Right and for the last time….Gonzales has always been a liar, no one believes him, Specter is doing these hearings for a political stunt, and we need to toss the machine and pass our impeachment resolutions.
TO THE BATTLE LINES!!!!!!!!!!!!
Doug E.
Fascism work’s best with scapegoats. No disrespect Billy & Jim Bob!
Ha ha ha…. an "Attorney General" who won’t swear to tell the truth … ha ha ha… woooo.. these rightwingers really take the cake… :laugh: :laugh:
ADA #22 said:
"…most likely because if they did place their hand on the bible it would burst in flames, like holy water hitting the devil himself!"
Ain’t that the truth! Why are these folks so afraid to go under oath? They tell us they have all the answers to show that they are performing legaly. So why not testify under oath? What are they hiding?
What a crock!
I would love to see that burst into flames thing!!
I suppose now they will use this: ‘Al-Qaeda’ bomber caught to justify their ileagal spying. "Oh look how we caught this guy!"
The problem is if you read the whole article you will find that conditions seem to be returning to the way they were before we "Ran the Taliban and Al-Qaeda out of Afghanistan"
Ya sure – we ran them out alright!
" ileagal" oops! I really wasn’t talking about a sick bird!
Non journalist but in actuality whore sitting in W.H. press corpse for two years without being noticed. Our top law enforcer sits before the senate and doesn’t answer questions and refuses to take an oath. Sounds like our alcoholic prez’ sense of humor. End of a democracy going out with lots of laughs.
Chris Floyd was going to blog the hearings but gave up in disgust when Specter the Defector refused to allow Gonzales to be sworn in, thus making the whole thing little more than a side-show to fool the public into thinking something was being done. I agree with him completely.
Kiss the Constitution good-bye.
Protecting Israel’s interests might well be what’s behind all of this. But that’s a political argument, and as long as the debate is limited to "Israel vs. the Muslims," Bush wins…because more Americans are sympathetic to Israel than to any Muslim country.
The debate must remain on spying without a warrant. I don’t see it as a close call. Others might disagree. But my posting was intended to point out to Bush’s defenders that he himself established the guidelines for legal spying…WITHOUT BEING FORCED TO DO SO. Now he and his sycophants are trying to shift the dialogue as best they can. As far as I’m concerned, it ended when Bush’s own words are held up to the light.
That’s why I asked Mr. Patriotic American, or whatever he calls himself, to explain how Bush’s own statements could be right and wrong at the same time. Evidently our friend’s response was unprintable. That figures.
The dialogue sounds alot like talking to Alito. Maybe Gonzales can end up on The Supreme Court, also.
I wonder what kind of excuses the Bush apologist are going to come up for Abu Gonzales not swearing on the Bible? And these ass clowns call themselves christians? Unbelievable.
Doug Eldritch #41
I don’t post on any other site and generally don’t respond to comments such as yours.
However, I’m truly amazed as to why you … and other American’s haven’t yet figured it out.
Nothing anti-semtic nor fascist about it. The truth is what it is …. whether you like it or not. But if you start at the beginning of the story "lies" are easier to follow and understand. Whether your Jewish, black, white, Mexican, Chinese, part Indian, French, German or Muslim it really doesn’t matter.
It’s Israels War that Cheney, Woferwitz, Bolton, Rice, Pearl have committed America to fight. Our military have died for another country. Our tax money and our equipment go to support Israels war against the Muslims… it’s not America’s War. Our "handlers" want American’s to think it is…. but its not.
Figure it out.
—————————————————–
Steve#38
Good post, honest answer and I agree with the majority of what you said. The picture is bigger then it seems.
However, go to a web site called the Project for the New American Century.org read who’s involved and the special "reports". One very long report parallels your first two statements. It’s the plan for a middle east war.
Then Google our "handlers" ie; Wolfwitz, Bolton, Rice, Pearl and even Cheney. Read select news articles about ties to radical Israel political groups. Find out who was in trouble with our Government many years ago for sending classified information to these same groups. Google Bush’s daddy and see his ties to the Carlyle Group and who else is a member of there board. You already know about Cheney’s ties to Haliburton.
There’s more … much, much more to this story.
My statement is correct ….. this is Israels War we fight … not America’s.
#52 G. Ya-rite, I’m gonna Try to Milk a BULL now !
I’ve just been watching the re-broadcast of the hearings.
Gonzalez and alot of the senators keep wandering off-point to other issues, no surprise.
It seems to me that there are three main issues:
The first is the illegality of acting outside the FISA laws.
The second is, and correct me if I’m wrong, the administration & its attorneys evidently wrote a new "law" which forms the basis of this NSA surveillance program, thereby usurping Congress’ authority to make the laws.
And the third is the sticky problem of information gotten through this program possibly being inadmissable in court in the future, thereby undermining our efforts to convict actual terrorists.
And added to the third one is the fact that’s come out about the people who are supposed to be working to sift through all the information gotten through this program interfering with their working to find & build cases against real terrorists
That last post of mine went through too soon, for some reason.
The last bit should have read:
Added to the third reason is the fact that the people who are supposed to be looking for terrorists & building cases against them are now swamped with all the information from this sweeping program, which interferes with their legitimate work!
G
We all are aware of it and the sticky situation okay??? We know the neocons all did everything for israel oil firsters etc.
But it is not, and I repeat NOT accurate to blame it on all the people or hebrews/arabs and whatever else.
Thats why it is important to differentiate the TOPIC.
NEOCONS. Okay? They are NEOCONS G, get that across and tell everyone the same and stop with the mix/matching.
Finally, the wiretapping etc is all a damn neocon law as far as I can tell. Because specter sure isn’t concerned enough with it to put gonzales under oath, it messes up the war because real terrorists get off scott free anyway, and on top of all that bullshit, the Diebold owning-neocons seem to think they should have "secret" hearings on this too.
Sorry but its all too clear, THE LAW AS SPECTER EVEN SAID WAS "BROKEN REPEATEDLY". And they wiretapped neocons like norquist who disagrees with everyone, so apparently neocons even wiretap their own and are all blowing eachother up. In other words, we have to force diebold out, force the senate to hold real hearings, and force the rest to be humiliated unto their demise.
That’s the bottom line….this whole system of "LAW" is now the neocons think they are above all and their crap is being piped by gonzales.
Doug
Grassley is concerned with prosecuting whoever leaked about the spy program. Interesting.
Wow, he actually said that the leaking in regard to Valerie Plame was "a two-bit nothing" compared to this!
Grassley can be prosecuted right alongside Lieberman for bribery, we that is america doesn’t care who leaked it we all care whether it was illegal.
So it was illegal, and now that means the damn thing needs to be ended.
So Grassley, your career is over too, along with all the bribes you take..
Doug
So they make their own laws, with no oversight, in total secret. And it’s all OK because we’re "at war", a war of their making, based on their lies, fueled by their media, protected by their court, for their immense profit.
What bribes did Grassley & Lieberman take?
Joan
AIPAC bribes…..Jack Abramoff led bribes all over the place from AIPAC.
It is absolutely sickening…..I have a portfolio showing all their holdings/legislation.
Doug E.
Gonzales is not testifying. His responses are carefully crafted rhetoric, non sequitur and "can’t say". He keeps saying that he cannot discuss the details of the program. What program? My guess is NSA is just fishing. There is not a lot of competence in the BCFOL. Gonzales is probably the least qualified individual to be AG.
This hearing is for show. Specter ducked out at halftime. None of this matters in 2006. With Sensenbrenner as chair of the House Committee, Bush & Cheney could rob banks in broad daylight.
What I would like to take my time to report to you, who weren’t there to see it, was the reaction of the PUBLIC after the session went to break after about an hour. It is interesting for two reasons. First and foremost, this is the information that unfortunately, is generally not considered IMPORTANT enough to be "news". Secondly, it is remarkable how very WELL ALIGNED Republican, Democrats, and independents alike are in their disgust of the current situation, in contrast to what the major media might have one believe. Out of 12 calls taken, there were 9 that basically agreed the hearings should be taking place. Three calls called for MORE SECRECY, indirectly accusing anyone concerned with the matter to be aiding and abetting the enemy(!); 3 that directly mentioned concerns of constitutional violation; 2 called for impeachment; 3 said Gonzales is not to be trusted; 2 wondered why the hell Gonzales wasn’t sworn; and 7 voiced a general disgust. I provide all caller comments below, in the order they were receive (every caller, but not every word of their comment, some reduced for brevity). AT THE VERY LEAST, read down to what the moderator felt he had to ask the Republican calling for impeachment.
R) "I’m a 57 year old veteran. I had top security clearance… I believe the political grandstanding should be taken behind closed session. This is almost seditious stuff that these guys are pulling off."
D) "I don’t believe that the administration should be able to circumvent the law. They said that people were informed in congress… They called these people in after it had leaked out… I’m against the war in Iraq… there is just so much corruption in this administration."
I) "I was working in Mayor Julliani’s office… I was there when that terrible thing happened… this terrible situation is not lost upon me. My feeling is very very simple. I have a responsibility to my family, to myself, and to everybody that is going to follow us, to make sure that our constitution holds, and is never ever trodden upon and disregarded by anybody in this country… My defense of the Constitution is staunch and unwavering. And if I have to die, because of a terrorist act, then so be it so long as I die and American with all of my American Constitutional Rights in effect…. "
R) "I can say that this administration doesn’t resemble any Republican administrations in my memory. This has been the most secretive, underhanded administration that I know of in my study of history. And I would like to voice the sentiments of your prior caller. The US Constitution has come under attack repeatedly by this administration, and that’s more important, by the way, the President wants to say that his number one responsibility is to protect and defend the American people. That’s not what his oath is sir. His oath is to defend the Constitution. It is the Constitution which protects the people."
D) "I want to know why the attorney general wasn’t required to testify under oath today…. because I guess I’m concerned he’s not telling the truth… I do think they do us proud (senators) when they question the President. I don’t believe he has the right to do what he’s doing… I lived through the Nixon era, I see a lot of similarities and it really scares me."
I) "I’m very concerned about the Attorney General. He was not truthful with the American people… This is a constitutional crisis my fellow Americans. This is a power grab by the on behalf of the Republicans. We need to stand up and impeach this administration."
R) "He should have been allowed to testify under oath. The administration is allowing him to lie to the general public. I do believe its time that we impeach the President, and a bunch of the others, these liars that are out there."
INTERESTINGLY, the moderator at this point asked the caller a question (the only time this happened):
"New York lemmie ask ya, you called in on the Republican line. Let me ask you, did you vote for George W. Bush?"
"Absolutely not."
D) Our Forefathers set forth in the Constitution a system of checks and balances… But here we hear that the President has "inherent powers" over and above Congress, over and above the Senate. No Sir, he does not. And when people say "yes, and think that this is ok", they don’t understand what they’re giving up. You’re giving up your Constitutional Rights."
R) "I don’t understand these callers for one thing. It seems like they’re really protecting the terrorists. He (Bush) is a good man. He has done his utmost to protect the United States. The Democrats want to get up there and play politics and the people are buying into it. It’s a shame. My dad went to war in WWII and he fought for our country, not for the terrorists."
I) Everyone who says "they’re not for the President, they’re defending terrorism", that’s just totally wrong, I don’t understand where one goes with the other. We should wiretap and we should have surveillance, but we should be doing it under the law…why no do it?… If they had gone to FISA from the beginning or told congress, everything would be under the media (i.e. not being questioned)…"
D) "…I think that the President of the United States along with his cabinet members and all of the Republican Party should be ashamed of violating this surveillance program. I’m real proud of all the people who are speaking out against this. It truly is a very appalling situation."
R) "I must say that I support my President 100% in the fact that he’s trying to protect us. I think that the more that you guys talk about this, and making this over the air, and you know, the more information that they have, the President should have just done this, and not told any of you, because the more that you say and the more that you talk you’re just giving the enemy more and more info. You lambast this Gonzales, you forced him into telling them they don’t open the mail. (Actually that was one of the several questions he So now they have another foothold. Now they can use our mail system."
Heads need to roll all throughout this senate at the outrage which this farce of a hearing is and the neocons themselves….
And we need to make sure of it with Fitzgerald’s help….
And on top of that, I heard someone mention third party earlier. Hell yeah, we’re going to have to pull out every option and shut these guys down by kicking them down the street permanently.
Doug E.
I was just poking around at Dailykos and came on a diary by Welshman. I hope it is okay to say something about this on BB. He stated that during the hearing gonzales said something to the effect that the programme he was talking about today was limited to international calls. This caused the author of the diary to question how many programs are there? I think this question is a good one. How many spying programs are going on, by what names, what agencies, etc. We have boxed ourselves in thinking we are all on wavelength, but if the committee and gonzales are talking apples and oranges, no wonder this is all nonsensical.
Feinstein hinted at a bigger picture but stopped short. I caught that one, but didn’t connect the dots to the statement noted above, that I didn’t see.
There is obviously a much bigger operation going on than meets the eye. gonzales is being coy, ‘d’s are huffing and puffing, and the ‘r’s couldn’t figure out if they should yea or nay on the swearing in vote. Wonderland. M4
I guess I should have read all the posts again before I posted. I see this was brought up by #5, sorry all…..am about 6 hrs behind on the news….which means I am way behind in New Time.
The thing I found most interesting, occurred during my second pass through the hearings. When listening for the second time, I heard something that I had missed.
Listening for the second time to the first round questioning by Schumer, regarding internal DOJ dissention, I hear Gonzales say that the dissention was not related to "the program that the president has confirmed".
This phrase was one I had heard the first time through when Gonzales was responding to questions about the scope of presidential powers under the administration’s expansive views of the AUMF.
When asked about whether presidential powers encompassed such things as opening first class mail and breaking and entering, Gonzales replied that these things were not authorized UNDER THE PROGRAM HE WAS THERE TO ADDRESS.
Basically, when you put these together, Gonzales, was implicitly stating that OTHER PROGRAMS EXIST THAT ARE FAR MORE INTRUSIVE THAN THE NSA FOREIGN/DOMESTIC WIRETAP PROGRAM.
This bears far greater scrutiny. The fact that Gonzales was saying that Comey and others had problems with OTHER PROGRAMS suggests that we have far greater problems than those that are currently visible.
ALASKA LAWYER
You got that right. Why doesn’t anyone get it yet?
This is what it will take….
pass impeachment resolutions state across state
Does anyone realize now that the neocons just want to screw over/destroy whatever americans they can!???? They aren’t from this country, why should the law bother any of them?
Do you get it yet? I’m wondering! Because this was STEP ONE PROGRAM oh yes, I’ve fought these neocons before….They’re just insane freaks who you silence before they silence you sometimes.
I don’t advocate *KILLING* anyone….at all unless its in self defense. But you will all have to be very forceful with this issue, to once and for all stop them and throw them out.
They are probably attacking the internet sometimes…
Right well the good news is america is for the most part, awake, enraged, and hit its last straw after katrina. The bad news of course, media is still neocon media, tries to spin everything, and when one of theirs is arrested spins that.
AND the really good news is Diebold has been boxed in….Heh, so that means their SOURCE CODE is OURS now in fact lawyer from Alaska….
Do you have comment on this document?
Diebold source code files turned over in Alaska
>:-)
Doug
To expand on Comment #65…
Not only did Gonzales only agree to answer questions concerning "This Program", and "This Program Only", he went exponentially out of his way to explain in his opening statement, that he was there to testify only on aspects of this program "WHICH THE PRESIDENT HAS ALREADY CONFIRMED IN PUBLIC, NOTHING MORE".
I cant stress how much be belabored this point. Think about it, this is what he is saying:
"I am here to defend only what has been leaked, and/or what the President has been dumb enough to claim/leak. I can neither confirm nor deny whether other illegal activities are taking place."
For example, look at three questions he didnt even try to obsfucate (i.e. talk around, or invoke the ‘operational aspect’ clause). He simply refused to answer these key questions, because all of them go BEYOND what has already been admitted, yet are obviously NOT operational aspects, thus should EASILY be answerable:
1) Are you able to open US Mail? (i.e. are we talking about more than just electronic surveillance?) This was the best, he just sat there a minute, while Leahy asked him like 5 times "Are you opening mail?" and finally he simply said "I dont want to anwer that question."
2) Can you guarantee that no domestic to domestic calls are being tapped? (i.e. are we talking about more than just international, as claimed?) He could neither confirm nor deny this, even though he went out of his way (later) to explain (paraphrased) "dont get me wrong, since we are doing everything we can to combat terror, we MAY BE tapping domestic to domestic, because the terrorists can be living here, but that is not part of This Program, we are using other lawful avenues"
3) Senator X (I forget who it was, Feingold maybe?) has sent letters demanding to know if his international calls have been tapped, and gotten no answer. Can you assure him they haven’t? (i.e. are we talking about more than just Al Queda suspects?) Again, neither confirm nor deny.
All the arguments over military necessity and emergency powers were vetted before the FISA law was passed in 1978. The pros and cons of that debate are inculcated into the law as written. Talking about what Lincoln or Wilson did is absurd, because they were operating under different laws.
It is true that technology has rendered parts of the law obsolete. But the remedy for that is not to ignore the law with impunity, it is to ask Congress for a new law.
Early on in comments it was suggested that Gonzalez should be investigated. Well, I think he needs to be impeached.
We CANNOT let this be swept under the rug. Apparently, Gonzalez lied and lied under oath during his hearings to become Attorney General. LIED UNDER OATH–isn’t that what we heard nonstop about with Clinton?????
IMPEACH……IMPEACH!!!
We need to put them all on notice…. and spread the word to our friends…
Tell the senators that Gonzales must be impeached immediately or their jobs, as they know them, are over.
And on top of that we will be throwing many of them in prison along with what’s left of Diebold.
Doug
What the hell???
At least five indicted under illegal wiretapping charges for NSA
This is a serious situation…..finish off the voting machines boys.
Doug
ye gads… it’s been going on for longer than we thought!
Gonzales seemed like nothing more valuable to society than a political hack. When asked about details about which he should have known answers, he seemed to know very little to nothing, showing him to be entirely unqualified for his job.
BVAC
The difference being? Those stupid bastards never used it for extortion, blackmail and all other manner of crimes.
They also got FISA warrants and used the law (72 hours) and did it with the knowledge of americans….
These neocon fascist freaks aren’t doing that at all, they are spying on everybody and doing worse through FoxCom Wireless, AMDOCS and AT&T to find out how many americans know about the neocons etc…..Nothing more than a coup with illegal spying.
Doug E.
well i think the idea of george washington intercepting terrorist emails is funny.
Maybe what most peole don’t understand, or the media doesn’t clarify, the law permits the president to spy first (for 72 hours) and then come to the court for permission. As the court meets in secret, spying without a warrant is no more effective in reducing the threat of terrorism than spying with a warrant. Of course, if the prez is spying on say someone in an opposing political party or organization.l..what would the court say????!!
Peg C #48
One of the bu$hit lies during his campaign (when is he ever not campaigning?) was that his administration would not do the "lawyer talk" like the Clinton administration did. What a load of crap that was.
This regime can’t put two clear words together in a sentence. Their statement "you have to get a warrant from a court before you can spy on Americans" is true on its face, however, what they really mean is "we don’t have to get a warrant from a court before we can spy on Americans".
I watched all the hearing. As Brad said, toward the end it got better, when Specter told them they should go to the FISA court and lay it all out to see if it is legal or not.
Specter either tried to dodge confrontation, or he was acknowledging a lack of jurisdiction, when he said they should go also to the full intelligence committee and tell all.
Clearly even most of the republicans see the Orwellian doublespeak in the Gonzales testimony and in the regime’s position.
While the hearings are good, and could not have happened without republican approval, still the republican party is the majority party who has the power and have been a criminal rubber stamp to the criminal regime.
It is a fundamental must that the republicans get voted out in November – as a group, because they have promoted group-think above and beyond all normalcy.
Since the republican congress has been the harbor and refuge of the neoCon fascist movement to severely damage this nation, they singularly should be punished accordingly in the November election.
Hey y’all, looks like Karl is up to his old tricks again.
Wouldn’t this be legally considered obstruction of justice?
I’d like to see someone ask the Republican Senators about this, if not during the hearing, at least during the break. Time to send some emails, we need to make the Democrats on the committee aware of what we’re dealing with here.
Congressional sources said Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove has threatened to blacklist any Republican who votes against the president. The sources said the blacklist would mean a halt in any White House political or financial support of senators running for re-election in November.
LINK
Based on the performance of Jerry Kilgore and countless others who have received white house support and been run out of government, I’m not so sure the republicans really give a shit about Bush or white house support.
If they do, they’re insane. Diebold and so on are going extinct and not even that will save them or the DLC thugs from complete destruction.
Doug
Re #73 Doug…..??
That story you cited:
"At least five indicted under illegal wiretapping charges for NSA"
has nothing to do with the NSA….it was a California private-eye snooping on celebrities & such!
#77 BVAC
I agree.
Personally, it makes me feel alot safer knowing our first president was on the ball electronically. I always knew he was ahead of his time.
I really wish he’d get on the spam problem, though.
Suggested letter from a Republican senator to Karl Rove:
Dear Karl:
The U.S. Senate is not an extension of the Republican party. U.S. Senators do not represent the president, they represent citizens…those who voted for them, and those who did not.
I consider your threat to be political blackmail. Rest assured it will have no bearing on my work, and I hope you will make that point clear to the president.
Yours truly,
(Hon. Pompous J. Haughty)
United States Senate
Comment # 74, BVAC, thank you. I got a real good laugh out of that.
Dear Robert,
The Senate was elected by the people for the values they ran on. The majority of Americans chose a convservative ideology rather then your lefty liberal one. The American people expect that ideology to be put forth, not the losing one, yours.
Thats why we have elections.
Sincerly,
The American Majority
Bush picked minorities to be his slaves, do his bidding, & never have an original thought–namely Gonzales & Rice.
Bush figured they are so grateful & amazed just to be appointed something important–they’d just say yessir–& he’d never have to deal with a Sec of State or an Atty General that had a mind of his own.
And, they’re both doing a bang up job of being slaves with no initiative.
Ricky #85
When these hearings are over, the "intelligence" (misnomer) committee will have jurisdiction.
That is the Robertson (aka robberson) committee, which is the greatest danger to Americans in the entire senate.
Committee chairman Robertson has promised over and over … I mean lied over and over, saying they would do the Phase II part of the investigation into the lies the prez told, alongwith his cronies, that got us into the Iraq quagmire.
They have not lifted a finger to do that work because bu$hit forbade it and they kowtowed.
KBE #80
The House faces a lot more music than does the senate in November. The committee is of the senate, so Rove’s rantings are not so persuasive.
Vote the republican SOB’s out of office. That is the only language they speak.
I remember the words "If you smile at me, I will understand ‘Cause that is something everybody everywhere does in the same language."
I propose a new stanza "Vote me out, I will understand ‘Cause that is something voters everywhere do in the same language".
Nothing else will get their attention.
For sucker Ricky,
I guess he didn’t notice virtually everybody is against the wiretaps and there is no such thing as real conservatives left in the republican party.
But we should come to expect such from empty heads like them of course. And he doesn’t know a thing about the voting….heh. Destroy the rest of the machines and get yourselves on the battle lines.
Doug E.
For Ricky: That’s interesting, but it has nothing to do with my posting.
Karl Rove is now blackmailing U.S. Senators. It is their responsibility to conduct legislative business according to their consciences, not according to partisan electoral schemes orchestrated by a hack. Rove is paid by the taxpayers of the country but serves the private interests of George W. Bush. If there weren’t so many more urgent matters to deal with in Washington, it might be time to hold a Constitutional summit on the question, "Should a man whose responsibilities are purely political draw a salary from the taxpayers, or should he be paid by the party he represents (the RNC)?"
Why don’t you read Sen. Chuck Hagel’s comment?
He said, "I don’t like what Karl Rove said because it frames the wiretapping question in political terms."
Exactly right. Which was the point of my posting, that this is a matter of law and doing the right thing, not a matter of politics. Your theories about what the public voted for in 2004 are irrelevant to the issue at hand.
Dredd – re: #87
Okay now I have to go dig out my CSN&Y "So Far" CD.
🙂
This question is posed to all based on Alaska Lawyer’s posting.
Alaska Lawyer: Good job in reporting this situation.
However, at what point do you ask yourself whether we should continue to "trust" the President that he isn’t doing anythring wrong (as he has repeatedly reassured us)… and at what point do we draw the line?
Essentially, who will protect us from these "protectors?"
Scenario #1: Is the President benevolent in his overuse/abuse of power (like our friends such as Ricky insinuate)?
Scenario #2: Or do we fear that "Absolute Power" is "Corrupting Absolutely" (to a similar level as the Third Reich with George Bush being the new Adolf Hitler or possibly Josef Stalin in the old USSR.)
Personally, I hope for Scenario #1 but fear (intensely) that it may be Scenario #2.
Perhaps we should check to see if Bush ordered the NSA to wiretap the Kerry/Edwards 2004 campaign?
Maybe that would be the most definitive answer (either way).
Perhaps what I am trying to say (but never really said it overtly) is that it is more important (read: scary) to me about HOW President Bush used the excessive authority… rather than THAT he used it.
RLM #83 –
heh heh…
#89 –
Right on.
screw liberals, go bush 😛
Survey on Capitalnews.org,c-span page ,Should warrantless surveillance be permitted if it prevents terrorist attacks? Go take this poll.Its being freeped and is up to 60% FOR wiretaps. Either that or people are just nuts!
Blogger ‘Flogging The Simian’ has an excellent analysis of what Gonzalez DIDN’T talk about at the hearings – and how the administration set the borders on what was asked:
http://www.weblog.ro/soj/2006-0...Mic.html#66899
"Should warrantless surveillance be permitted if it prevents wiretaps?" is a LOADED QUESTION. It presumes that 1) The real purpose of wiretapping is to prevent terrorism, and 2) That it has succeeded or will succeed in preventing a specific act of terrorism, and 3) That surveillance with a warrant would not succeed, but warrantless surveillance might.
The people who write these questions are either monstrously dumb, or they have an agenda. Here is a reasonable question on the topic:
"Where do you draw the line on government spying in defiance of the law, if such spying might possibly prevent a terrorist attack in the future?"
Of course, that question can’t be answered "YES" or "NO." It takes a person with a brain to answer it.
A reasonable yes-or-no question might be, "Do you accept the Bush administration’s claim that spying without a warrant is necessary to prevent terrorism?"
C-SPAN does biased polls now, they are no way to gauge anybody. Listen to the callers in and some of them come all the way from hicksville or worse.
However, pay attention to AP Ispos and all the real polling firms and they’re all against it. Unless it caught terrorists, or actually worked.
Doug E.
Ricky,
Be careful. George Washington is here in his time machine and he’s wiretapping you and Lucy.
"The fix is in"……
Bush appointees are the only ones saying it’s OK for Bush to circumvent the laws of our country. This is what happened during the rise of the 3rd Reich!!! Gonzalez is complicit in ALL of this!
Comment #94, Jose says,
"screw liberals, go bush 😛 "
I think we lost that arguement. Lots of good points by a typical rightwinger. I don’t know where to begin my rebuttle….
#94 That was a scathing unheard of remark about liberals. I don’t think there can be a rebuttle to that, I mean it is so well worded and concise. I hope no other R’s make remarks like that otherwise we may be out the next election too!