READER COMMENTS ON
"GOP Conspiracy Theorists in WA Lose Gubernatorial Election Battle..."
(55 Responses so far...)
COMMENT #1 [Permalink]
said on 6/6/2005 @ 9:23 pm PT...
we're certain those GOP'ers who were outraged by what they thought they saw in WA will be calling for the same strict standards to be applied to the rest of the country any moment now. Right?
Yeah, sure! Absolutely, Brad. Any moment now, indeed...
COMMENT #2 [Permalink]
said on 6/6/2005 @ 9:59 pm PT...
GOP in Washington make complaints and allegations of voter fraud and ballot stuffing, yet completely silent on the voting machines that gave them a mysterious 8000 vote advantage.
COMMENT #3 [Permalink]
said on 6/6/2005 @ 10:09 pm PT...
I think this ruling in Wa could mean that it will be harder to start any legal action in Ohio, Florida etc.
What do the attorneys and other experts here think about that?
Also about Rossi contesting for 5 months. I think any committed politian would automatically do that in a race this close.
But , He WHINED FOR 5 MONTHS----GET OVER IT!!!
OK I feel better now.
COMMENT #4 [Permalink]
said on 6/6/2005 @ 10:14 pm PT...
Horkus, 8,ooo extra votes? I never read about that. Is that the Secoia(sp) law suit? I'm Shocked! Shocked!
COMMENT #5 [Permalink]
said on 6/6/2005 @ 10:51 pm PT...
Colleen, what I'm trying to say is that the Democrats could have made the voting machine an issue in the courts if they wanted to. The GOP was careful to pick and choose their "fraud", and they didn't make the case for fraud with voting machines. Why didn't the Democrats make it an issue? This could have moved the issue to a higher court with more attention. Take one for the team. Now that the court case is over, that chance has passed.
Even in a solidly blue state like Washington, democrats can still be pretty spineless.
COMMENT #6 [Permalink]
said on 6/6/2005 @ 11:23 pm PT...
Yah, I know. But they got to actually win/keep the governer as dem.
COMMENT #7 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 6:44 am PT...
Its the James Baker syndrome. They charged fraud to take our eyes off the voting machine issue.
There is no way voters can gen up enough votes to make a difference.
This was the supreme chance to show that voters can fraud up an election ... the closest election for gov ever.
A tiny margin of difference ... and guess what ... voter fraud was not a factor. Only 5 votes were proven to be relevant and were erased.
No, its a diversion James Baker is doing on the new Carter committee ... try to take the focus away from the voting machines and put it on voters.
That is just outright bu$hit ... we know that it is simple ... we just need verifiable audit trails on the voting machines.
COMMENT #8 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 6:53 am PT...
GOP = Grandstanding Outdated Party?
COMMENT #9 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 7:17 am PT...
Anybody listening to C-Span 2 - JUDICIAL NOMINATIONS
Brown Debate Resumes Today
The Senate resumes consideration of the nomination of Janice Rogers Brown to be U.S. Circuit Judge for the D.C. Circuit, with a midday roll call vote on a motion to invoke cloture.
Sen. Dick Durbin has harsh words for Ms. Brown.
COMMENT #10 [Permalink]
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 6/7/2005 @ 7:23 am PT...
The Democrats in Washington state made it about outcomes, not about honest elections. They happened to win, but it's a Pyrrhic victory if the judge's ruling sets a precedent that statistical incongruities cannot be used to establish fraud.
The fact that overseas elections have been declared fraudulent on that basis, e.g. in Ukraine, is apparently irrelevant. Fraud has to be "proven," which means as long as voting machine companies get to protect their source codes from scrutiny, any election can be stolen wherever electronic voting machines and/or tabulators are used.
Those cheering for this outcome ought to think again. Karl Rove is celebrating right now.
COMMENT #11 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 8:52 am PT...
As to the Washington case, one lawyer summed it up well:
"It's not enough to show a mistake, it's not enough to show a bad mistake, and it's not enough to show a really bad mistake," Democratic attorney Jenny Durkan said in her closing argument last week. "In order to prove their case, they still have to show that Gov. Gregoire did not receive the highest number of legal votes."
It is important to note that presidential elections are different. That is because there is no personal federal right to vote for president.
The state legislators have the only right to vote for president ... they make up the "electoral college" and the people's vote is actually only advisory. The state legislature of any or all the states can remove the vote for president from the ballot any time they want to. Legally.
So all the fuss about the problems in presidential election scenarios is a different breed of cat from all the fuss about elections of state officials and members of congress.
That is why at VR we advocate an amendment to the US Constitution so we have the federal right to vote for president (link here).
COMMENT #12 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 8:52 am PT...
You have to understand the pretext of the court case. Last winter, Judge Bridges set the bar so high that there was no possible way that Dino could have overcome it. He said that there will be no new election, no overturning of this election unless the Republicans can prove fraud outright.
Until the pretrial ruling, Rossi's team never even mentioned fraud. Afterwards, they repeated it as a mantra saying that they will give us lots of evidence of fraud in King County. However, during the trial itself, there was no mention of any fraudulent activities.
Judge Bridges said that the voters need to hold elected officials accountable and make counties do such things as mandate paper trails.
The Democrats in the Legislature are only paying lip service to this. This should tell you about how serious they are about true election reform. They are just as bad as DC Republicans!
At any rate, I find it odd that Dino did not appeal the ruling. Not because the bar was so high and that Judge Bridges denied pretty much all of his allegations.
Rather, Dino said in his news conference last night that the "political makeup" of the Washington Supreme Court would not allow him to prevail. (Now tell me that isn't sour grapes!!!)
Michael Lubin (#7):
Ironically, I cast my ballot in Snohomish County this past election. But in my precinct (North Marysville), we still had those old "connect the head of the arrow to the tail" ballots. Not sure if that would be considered paper ballot (after all, we drew on our ballot and placed it in the box) or if it would be considered Optical Scan Ballot because it would likely have been read by a machine.
COMMENT #13 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 9:18 am PT...
Gop=Party in power and put there by the majorioty of Americans. As liberals we have to realize we actually LOST the last election. Instead of insulting people we hope vote for us, maybe we should embrace them?
COMMENT #14 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 10:39 am PT...
What gives you the idea that the Dems "LOST the last election", Medium?
COMMENT #15 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 10:51 am PT...
---maybe we should embrace them? ---
Embrace the dopes who voted for this illegal/incompetant /war lie-ing/etc
regime? What's to embrace?
Liberals should dance with the devil? Is it not enough that the Demo 'leadership' in Congress does just that? What do they have to show for it?
I'll answer that---one victory! They saved the filibuster. It is now safe! As long as they do not use it.
COMMENT #16 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 10:55 am PT...
Medium Left... you may represent moderate leftists who are still unaware of everything we here are aware of.
We know the election was stolen.
The GOP were installed thanks to that theft.
The only way in which we "lost" is that we, the people, were cheated. Even the republicans haven't won, not since the PNAC-borne takeover of their party.
The PNAC and it's masterminds "won" and did so by cheating. Repugs, dems, glibs, everyone lost to business and elitism and have been cheated on two elections now. This isn't even about who "won"... it's about stopping the govt-tied corporations (Halliburton, etc.), the PNAC and all those other assholes from cheating us out of a 3rd election.
If you think demanding voter-verifiable ballots or demanding a full paper trail for future elections is a bad idea... you're naivity is astounding.
The argument is... 2 elections have been highly suspect... we must do everything we can to ensure the integrity of the next elections...
but for some reason.. republicans object to our calls for verifiable future elections. - why object??
Seems to me there are already dirty tricks planned and they just want to protect these plans by obstructing and/or diverting the calls for verifiable ballots. - THERE IS NO OTHER LOGICAL REASON.
The thieves don't want their plans foiled. Simple as that.
COMMENT #17 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 11:06 am PT...
Perhaps all of us (Bradblog, VR and all other patriots) should deliberately spoil our ballots next year so that they will have to be counted by hand?
What do you think?
COMMENT #18 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 11:27 am PT...
> There is no evidence that the problems in King County had anything to do with "intentional misconduct or someone's desire to manipulate the election"
Aaaahhh. Two people were convicted for voting twice and had to pay a fine of $400. Voting for their dead spouses. They are looking at 5 other folks.
I thought "every vote counts" means "every vote counts." Republicans agree but we also agree that every person only gets one vote. Dems are notorious for dead people voting - see Chicago 1960.
COMMENT #19 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 11:32 am PT...
> We know the election was stolen. The GOP were installed thanks to that theft.
Talk about Conspiracy Theorists!
Thanks guys! The red states are impressed!
COMMENT #20 [Permalink]
America's Work Stories
said on 6/7/2005 @ 11:47 am PT...
COMMENT #21 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 11:50 am PT...
Exactly my point. We will NEVER win an election again if tis is how the dems are going to behave.
News Flash: Without the "dopes" that voted for Bush, we are in deep trouble. Insulting them pushes them futher away, not closer to voting for us.
Fight all you want about Ohio. Maybe theres truth, maybe not. I dont know. Electoral votes aside, the majority voted for Bush. If we cant even beat him, what does that make us?
Time for a change of attitude.
COMMENT #22 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 11:50 am PT...
> Well, the GOP's attitude and behavior I don't think will take the same form when our side presents its case for fraud when the right time arrives.
In the great words of Steven Tyler ' "Dream on"
COMMENT #23 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 12:00 pm PT...
Medium Left, I am a card carrying member of the vast right wing conspiracy. Yet, you, who I am assuming are a moderate leftist, and I agree with each other on the problems of the Democratic Party. See, we can find common ground, we can all just get along, we can find bipartisanship.
I applaud you for trying to help your party but you may be fighting a dead cause.
The Left has hijacked the party and it is killing it. You guys say and some leftist Republicans say that the right has hijacked the Republican Party. Well, who is winning elections? Do leftist Republicans want to go back to 40 years of Demo reign (1954 - 1994)?
I prefer to think that common sense average Americans understand what both parties are about and have chosen more Republicans since 1994.
COMMENT #24 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 12:06 pm PT...
What nerve! This smells like a Karl Rove tactic: first, steal the national election, then divert attention away from the theft by accusing the Dems in Washington of stealing. Sounds like a little GOP hypocrisy at work.
By the way, why do so many pundits refer to Rove as a political genius when it's clear that he's just a petty thief. I never met a thief that didn't think he was so much smarter than everybody else because he doesn't scruple about stealing.
COMMENT #25 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 12:09 pm PT...
Medium Left - There is absolutely no reason in the world to believe that Bush won the majority of the popular vote. If you bother to look at the evidence of what happened in November, you'd quickly see that there is no confidence that the vote (Electoral or Popular) was correctly tallied.
As to the "dopes" that voted for Bush as you quoted someone...Don't know who said it, but it wasn't me. That said, anyone who was uninformed enough to vote for Bush as of November 2, is, indeed, a dope.
I'm not interested in "winning over" anyone. I didn't vote Dem myself this year. I'm interested in people making their own *informed* decisions, which requires a media which actually *informs* them, and candidates who don't actually lie, prevaricate, and say one thing but do another.
Paul - Every vote does count. If two people voted twice, their extra votes should be removed from the count. Where's your problem with that?
COMMENT #26 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 12:10 pm PT...
I think this is a bad ruling, even though it's good that the GOP's stupid claims got thrown out. THEY are the ones who probably committed fraud in this race, though they lost anyway. Unfortunately, this ruling helps strengthen those who dismiss all fraud accusations.
There's an excellent piece out about this race:
EVIDENCE OF ELECTION IRREGULARITIES IN SNOHOMISH COUNTY, WASHINGTON
GENERAL ELECTION, 2004
ē The chances that 2/3 of the vote would show a Democratic lead of 97044 to 95228 votes, while the remaining 1/3 of the vote on touch screens would show a Republican lead of almost 5% (50,400 Republican to 42,145 Democratic) as a result of voters randomly choosing whether to vote by paper ballot or by touch screen is one in 1,000 trillion! A true impossibility.
ē Machines with repair histories within two weeks of the election or exhibiting problems on election day with observed vote switching, prevoted ballots, or freezing up performed better than the average Republican gain in the governorís race on election day (of just under 5%) in 46 out of 58 polling locations, and did better than the absentee results for the same precincts in 56 out of 58 polling locations. In the remaining two instances, electronic results were roughly equal to absentee results.
ē Sequoia machines similar to those in Snohomish County, Washington were used in all of Nevada, almost all of New Mexico, and four counties in Florida.
Read the full scientific study:
COMMENT #27 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 12:29 pm PT...
The REAL investigation got blindsided, railroaded and sidetracked. Those computers were hacked (in favor if the guess-whos). Sheer obfuscation, to deflect serious concerns about election fraud. Put the Dems on the defensive and veil the massive hacking that hiked the Rebug vote.
COMMENT #28 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 12:36 pm PT...
Sorry for going O/T here for a min.
Here is a copy and paste of e-mail I sent to my Congressman today, Rep. Dave Reichert, a neo con Republican for whom DICK Cheney stumped yesterday:
Dear Rep. Reichert,
As your consituent, I am one of the people you are representing in Congress.
To that end, please kindly help to work with Congressman Conyers to discuss the "Downing Street Minutes."
This important document demands a thorough investigation into whether any Article of the US Constitution was violated by the Administration and, if so, what should be done about it.
Please, Mr. Reichert, this is VERY URGENT. It is our patriotic duty as Americans to uncover any abuses by any branch of government.
- - - Anyone think I'll get a response????
COMMENT #29 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 12:58 pm PT...
My party is so concerned about crying about what happened in the past, that we will have circles run around us in the future.
I got some news for you. The election will not be overturned and Bush will serve 4 more years no matter how loudly you yell.
How about instead of crying over the past, we move on and figure a way to win. Being negative isnt going to attract anyone.
COMMENT #30 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 1:41 pm PT...
Hmmm --- MediumLeft & Paul came in together, pat each other on the back and have the same arguments? Hmmm.
COMMENT #31 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 1:58 pm PT...
Medium, how should we win?
Should we act more like republicans in order to beat them, so more legislative artworks like NAFTA be passed?
PROVE to me that the voting in 2002 and 2004 was legit and then we'll talk, otherwise, all your rants here are useless.
When Bush won the election, I initially bought into the morals value garbage. I already accepted it. After reading all the websites that worked to expose election "irregularities", it changed my mind. Is that what you're here to do? To stop people from changing their minds from seeing more and more of the truth?
I have to say, you're doing a pretty lousy job.
In the event that you are legit, you are the kind of spineless leftist we despise. Go ahead, try to get the Dems to pander to the freeper vote that they'll never get on their best days. You know as well as I do, pandering to republican fringe vote equals certain death to the Democratic party. They should just rename the parties republican and republican-lite.
COMMENT #32 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 2:38 pm PT...
Kerry was not the first Senator to mention the Downing Street Minutes, Senator Kennedy was (link here).
Any guesses as to who will be the first Senator to get election fraud issues going?
To Paul and Medium Left, do you have any problem with only allowing voting machines in elections if those said machines have verifiable paper trails for valid audits when needed?
COMMENT #33 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 2:45 pm PT...
You are the one that has to prove fraud. Its innocent till proven guilty, not the other way around.
Regardless, Brad can tell with ip if me and the other guy have anything to do with each other, and he'll tell you we dont.
You see whats happening here. I am a democrat who is proposing we get a positive message for the furture instead of crying about things we cant change. And what do I get? I get attacked.
If you think you are going to win anything with your exclusive club of which mainstream democrats dont even belong, your to far gone to even bother with. You'll never win anything. You are pushing me away.
The democrats are lost is this is how we get treated in our own party. If Im not in lock step with BradBloggers, Im the enemy. What happened to tolerance and the free trade of ideas. All I got was attacked and ridiculed. One person even suggested a "conspiracy theory" about me and some other commenter.
Gimmie a break. Maybe I belong in another party. Your doing a great job for us dems. Keep it up.
COMMENT #34 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 2:56 pm PT...
seems to me the repugs in WA were so confounded that their cheating STILL did not result in the win that they had worked so hard to fix. so, they had to kick up a fuss. we all remember these cases from our days in the pre-K sandbox.
whosoever still considers it a given that bush 'won' this election, is just not paying attention. and anyone who believes he 'won' in 2000 is as pathologically deluded as bush himself appears to be. from that initial theft, we have the jim jefferds scandal (remember that? he left because bush was so rude and arrogant), the tax cut scandals, the enron scandals, cheney's energy committee scandal, the 9/11 scandals (bottomless pit there), the afghanistan scandals (including but not limited to tillman, karzai, unical's pipeline, the CIA heroine traffic, the return of the Taliban warlords, and STILL no bin Laden), the iraq scandals (way too long for parens, and counting), the Halliburton et al. scandals, the depleted uranium scandal, the negligence of troops scandal (support them indeed; they've taken away their benefits and their armor and their reliable weapons and their service limits and their dignity and honor, bush has YET to attend a single funeral, and STILL no WMDs!), the medicare/drug bill scandalS (THREE associated with that one bill), the campaign scandals (backpacking transmitters, loyalty oaths, etc.), the ABU GHRAIB etc. TORTURE scandalS, the election scandals (you're at the right site to review all of those, and WA was the least of them), and now after the third election theft (02 was just a test run folks; anyone out there really believe cleland really lost in GA and coleman really won in MN?), they continue with the gannon scandal, the social security sales tour scandals, the protection of DeLay's scandals scandal, the nuclear option scandal, the bolton scandal, the bizarre number of repug gay-bashing gays scandals, the rampant theocracy scandal (most overtly evident in the AF Academy, but just read the news...), the recruiting scandal, the Downing St. minutes scandal, the.....
(sorry. i ran out of breath. and my eyes began to bleed....)
and so, i have to ask you, therefore, what in heaven's name would ever possess any thinking person to ever in a million years ever consider even the remote possibility that these folks would NOT cheat in this past - or any - election?
to me, you'd have to be a flaming solipsist of the Nth degree to even question that likelihood.
to me, it would be like questioning every day whether the sun would rise in the east. yet again!
with all this unbridled evidence, what ELSE is one to think?
THEREFORE, i beseech you, do your civic duty and get your FACTS together and then ACT to correct this problem, because their relentless drive to destroy what is left of our democracy (as evidenced in the very partial list above) will NOT just of its own accord voluntarily get a moral conscience toward humanity in general or a patriotic duty to the Constitution and country in particular and cease and desist its corruption and destruction.
and here, i sincerely offer my respectful apologies for any offense; none intended. but hey, this is pretty serious big stuff, so don't take the small stuff so seriously. perspective, y'know?
perspective. and a good hearty dose of reality.
COMMENT #35 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 3:27 pm PT...
ML #33, yes the Democrat and the Republican parties are fossils from the past. America is going to need a true multiparty system to survive.
More parties, more diversity and more checks and balances.
COMMENT #36 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 4:08 pm PT...
COMMENT #37 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 4:25 pm PT...
Wapo's latest Downing Street Minutes story.
COMMENT #38 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 4:30 pm PT...
Re: #37 post factum apologies for the OT!
COMMENT #39 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 4:33 pm PT...
I don't know where people get the idea that democrats would do better if they were more like republicans ...
Oh yes I do, it comes from the RNC! They would love to have all of us believe it, not just our most naive faction.
I know people who refused to vote for Kerry because he wasn't taking an anti-war position, but I don't know anyone who voted for him because he supported the war. And so on. And on and on and on.
The answer is not to move the democratic party toward the so-called center where the neocons live. It's to educate the most naive faction --- the so-called moderate democrats.
Hang around, Medium Left; there's a lot here for you to learn.
COMMENT #40 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 4:35 pm PT...
COMMENT #41 [Permalink]
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 6/7/2005 @ 6:17 pm PT...
For Medium Left: Clean elections aren't about Democrats and Republicans. They are about honest people and dishonest people.
Since there are dishonest (and disingenuous) folks in both parties, we're never going to get clean elections if we frame the issue in partisan terms.
COMMENT #42 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 7:18 pm PT...
Well done, LLL! Good to have ya here! Don't be a stranger!
Back to Medium Left who said:
I am a democrat who is proposing we get a positive message for the furture instead of crying about things we cant change.
For a start, you may consider that being accused of "crying"... especially to many of the tireless freedom fighters who have worked for months to to restore democracy ... might raise some hackles and bring "attack" in return.
Beyond that, I don't give a flying crap about what Democrats need to do to win. (Though I assure you, I agree with those here who have said becoming Republican Lite has nothing to do with it).
What I care about at this point? Honest democracy.
And if you haven't noticed, you can run as far to the Right as you want, but if they control the ballot boxes (and they do) it doesn't matter what your party decides to do.
Fix the democracy. Then tell me what each party needs to do to get the most votes. Until then, it don't mean a thing.
COMMENT #43 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 8:07 pm PT...
Further info to refute Medium Left's notions (which we will, for now, assume as legit, as opposed to troll-ish). Just out in tomorrow's WaPo:
Six in 10 respondents said Bush and GOP leaders are not making good progress on the nation's problems; of those, 67 percent blamed the president and Republicans while 13 percent blamed congressional Democrats. For the first time, a majority, 55 percent, also said Bush has done more to divide the country than to unite it.
The drop in Bush's approval ratings on fighting terrorism came disproportionately from political independents. In March, 63 percent of independents approved of Bush's job combating terrorism. By April this had fallen to 54 percent. And in this weekend's survey, 40 percent gave him good marks.
Fight on, Freedom Fighters!
COMMENT #44 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 9:12 pm PT...
Has Dino Rossi won Washington yet?????
Has John Kerry won Ohio yet?????
Gee, I wonder why the GOP wants to avoid Ohio!
COMMENT #45 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 9:45 pm PT...
COMMENT #46 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 9:55 pm PT...
Sorry about the test. I've been trying to post a reply to #29 most of the afternoon, and I continually get the message "Your post contains questionable content" from Greymatter. I've changed words, tried posting parts, all to no avail.
Suffice it to say I had a few words to say regarding the erroneous perceptions in the above post and I can't imagine what the software saw as "questionable content".
COMMENT #47 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 10:31 pm PT...
I'll 'fes up---twas me.
At #17 I wrote: ----Embrace the dopes who voted for this illegal/incompetant /war lie-ing/etc
regime? What's to embrace?
And I think it is worth repeating. So, sorry you got some flack due me.
It was in a reply to Medium. I see no point in trying to cuddle up to willful idiots on a hope to win them over, as was the directive of his statement. My firm belief is that 'the liberal' is in the right and should stand tall and oppose the bushmob's misstep each and every time it moves.
Again, sorry about the errant flack. But I'm a reasonable guy I'd be glad to share.
COMMENT #48 [Permalink]
said on 6/7/2005 @ 10:54 pm PT...
No apology necessary, Cole. At least not to me
Arry, if you have a copy of what you were trying to post, please Email it to me, so I can take a look at what might have triggered the problem.
I've had to install some anti-spam routines to try and ward off the hundreds of comment spams from gambling sites (hope that doesn't keep *me* from posting!) which employ robot scripts to spam us. That's one of the reason that the sites been knocked out for a few hours at a time recently.
Sorry bout that! Send me what you wrote, and let me see if I can adjust things!
COMMENT #49 [Permalink]
said on 6/8/2005 @ 7:02 am PT...
to the mediums of the world:
two brief points:
one, actually, there is a great deal of merit to what you are suggesting, IN THAT we must all recognize that, for pity's sake, we're all gonna have to figure out how to live together, and ultimately we'd all like to do that peacefully. non? so, in that spirit, i confess that i spent a good deal of october wondering how things would look apres 11/2, no matter who won (and i confess as well that i had not yet formulated my forehead slapping logic that OF COURSE this deadly cabal of crooks would steal it, AGAIN!!). it's a tall order, but one we must truly ponder, and ponder seriously. however deluded these folks may be, we quite honestly have to be creative and determined enough to find solutions to arguments AND problems that will convince them to recover their principles.
which leads to two:
and this is where most folks are stuck, i think. all this nice-nice being said, we would be idiots (too) to understand this nice-nice to mean that we compromise our own principles. we can't simply pull an aw shucks and give them all hugs. not only would they not be receptive, but it would not be sincere. this challenge is remarkably intense because we are faced with confronting these folks with their own deepest uglinesses and fears, their own sins and horrors. this is the source of their ignorance, and yes, their willful ignorance, and it can only be understood this way. their frailties and fears so dominate them that they expend inordinate psychic energies defending and justifying themselves, constructing alternate realities within which to place all the contradictions, and then attack and destroy all those who question these flimsy scaffolds.
forgive them; they know not what they do.
at least, most of them. and i believe, most of those even at the top. they're just caught up in the riptide of the collective fears.
so, back to pragmatics, just keep these things in mind when responding, i suppose. no one really wins in the kind of fight where both sides insist on superiority.
humility and compassion in addition to absolute dedication to the truth.
and so, all that being (not so briefly! sorry) said, i admit to my own failure to adhere to these concerns in my previous post. apologies to any offended again.
consider this an invitation not to meet in the middle, but to meet on the turf of truth?
enough. those who get it, get it, those who don't, forgive me.
COMMENT #50 [Permalink]
said on 6/8/2005 @ 11:56 am PT...
There are some relevant comments on the open thread for the last Brad Show from Catherine and others, no. 239 and following. Worth checking out. I suggested she post same here. I too have been getting that error message "Your post contains questionable content" (not this post, an earlier one." Brad, I sent you an email with the content.
COMMENT #51 [Permalink]
said on 6/8/2005 @ 12:32 pm PT...
Hey Medium Left,
Hang around. I don't know if you've been attacked or not. I think you've been treated to some "passionate debate", where the comments aren't personal, even if they seem so.
Brad's comments about being pro- fair elections, and not being pro- or anti- a particular party in general speak the truth about his bedrock intent, despite the header to this story, which has apparently gotten some people up in arms. I think there's more than enough evidence to support the conclusion that Bush DID NOT win the last election.
The debate here is (usually) about "fixing" (if may use that word) the system, not fixing the Democratic party. Obviously people will have a lot of different ideas as to how to do that (fix the Dems), but I'm not sure you're going to get that discussion going here, in any fashion that you would find rewarding, because, as others have said, it's not about Democrats or Republicans. I know it seems that way sometimes, but it's not.
For my 2 cents on that, however, during the 60s and 70s I always supported dialogue and ideas from the radical left, in part because it made the "medium left" look viable and reasonable. I still support that tactic. Obviously it's been successful for the radical right in recent times. As long as the Dems try to go for the center, they're going to keep being dragged further and further towards the radical right, because they have managed to move the "center" quite a bit. My opinion.
COMMENT #52 [Permalink]
said on 6/8/2005 @ 9:02 pm PT...
This is a test of the Emergency Broadcast System!
If this had been an actual emergency, you would have been instructed when and where to tune on your TV and radio dial!
Dum-dum! Deedle Dum-Dum! Deedle Dum-Dum! Deedle Dum-Dum!
There was a turtle by the name of Bert!
And Bert the Turtle was very alert!
When danger threatened he would never get hurt!
He knew just what to do!
He'd duck, and cover!
Duck, and cover!
He did what we all must learn to do!
You and you and you and you!
Duck, and cover!
Now remember, boys and girls, what do you do?
Duck, and cover!
Duck, and cover!
Duck, and cover!
Courtesy: Don Pardo
COMMENT #53 [Permalink]
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 6/9/2005 @ 11:00 am PT...
Any time the election fraud issue is subsumed into partisan politics, it is susceptible to being dismissed on the grounds, "It's over. Let's move on to winning the next election." What follows, inevitably, is an argument about to achieve that through debate on the "issues."
What Medium Left and others won't admit, or don't understand, is that those issues don't matter if elections can be stolen. Imagine if one team won the Super Bowl every year because the referee had been paid off in advance. If the losing team knew this had happened, or strongly suspected it had, would that team say, "We really have to block and tackle better if we're going to win."??????
I think it would say, "Let's all look at the instant replay of the game, and examine all those calls that went against us. It just might be that this game was fixed from the beginning."
That's what's involved here. The referee was Blackwell, and he's a crook. The head linesman was whoever flipped the votes. The back judge was the guy who pulled the Warren County cover-up, and the field judge was the guy who deliberately shorted Democratic precincts on voting machines. Gov. Taft is Commissioner Paul Tagliabue...he might not have known about the theft personally, but he wants to protect his referee.
In Ohio, they understand football better than they understand political honesty. That's why I used a gridiron metaphor.
COMMENT #54 [Permalink]
said on 6/10/2005 @ 4:10 am PT...
That's enough Medium Left, you don't seem to realize the elections are being stolen.
Florida had a phantom based election. The elections are being stolen and meanwhile in Washington, a Judge has motioned to hear the complaint on Sequoia using unverifiable, secret vote counting software.
Sequoia will be forced to address everything. But oops! Sequoia will be mysteriously out of town possibly during the lawsuit....
Stay tuned! Stolen elections can't be continued.
COMMENT #55 [Permalink]
said on 6/15/2005 @ 7:43 pm PT...
You'd think in this day and age, elections would be at their hardest to steal, with worldwide instant news coverage. But, somehow it's happening. The reason? The MSM isn't covering it.