READER COMMENTS ON
"LIVE BLOGGING: BRAD BLOG Covers CSPAN Coverage of Baker/Carter Election Reform Commission Hearing..."
(119 Responses so far...)
COMMENT #1 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 8:20 am PT...
Also note, CSPAN will be broadcasting a speech by noted
theologian David Lee Griffin given at 7:30 this evening at U of WI.
He'll be challenging the official story of 9/11, pointing out holes,
inconsistencies, and impossibilities. If you want to get to the
heart of the Bush Administration lies and coverups, 9/11 is a
good place to start.
COMMENT #2 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 8:42 am PT...
Is there no end to this Era of Madness?
COMMENT #3 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 9:00 am PT...
Jesus. This is worse than Kafkaesque. Baker is Carter's second favorite Republican? Nice.
COMMENT #4 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 9:01 am PT...
Carter calls Baker, "my second favorite Republican"
... this tells you everything you need to know about Jimmy Carter.
COMMENT #5 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 9:08 am PT...
Just tuned into CSPAN--Tom Delay speaking, & CSPAN2--NRA guy. Can someone explain to me why they characterize the assault weapons ban as "Clinton's lie"? Seriously, I'd like to understand their point of view on that. Anybody know?
COMMENT #6 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 9:09 am PT...
I apologize for my ignorance...
COMMENT #7 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 9:17 am PT...
CSPAN is also supposed to be covering a 9/11 truth movement today. Strange, since the MSM usually never touches this topic with a ten-foot poll.
COMMENT #8 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 9:23 am PT...
re #1. Thanks for this information, PetGoat. I agree with you completely when you say:
If you want to get to the heart of the Bush Administration lies and coverups, 9/11 is a good place to start.
COMMENT #9 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 9:26 am PT...
First of all, I apologize for my lack of participation here recently and for the next several weeks. It's planting season here in Tennessee, and I'm outside more than inside these days, plus we're winding up the school year so my son can make the transition from homeschool to public school with a nice break in between, and still get credit for the classes he's already taken (and yes, I have mixed feelings, but my heart tells me the time has come for these changes, and not to hold on too tightly)
I wanted to ask, has anyone gotten any response at all from former Pres. Carter regarding the emails sent about including Baker on the commission? If that question has been asked and answered already, again, my apologies.
Courage, fellow patriots. While this is disheartening, we still fight the good fight - and make no mistake, we're more formidable and tenacious opponents than they thought we'd be.
"First they laugh at you, then they ignore you, then they fight you, then you win." Ghandi
We have pressed into the "fight" stage - hang in there.
COMMENT #10 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 9:48 am PT...
If you want an explaination, in a single word, try--
COMMENT #11 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 9:49 am PT...
Did he say who his number one favorite is? I couldn't stomach reading about it.
And by all means, 9/11 needs a thorough looking into. The neoCONS and the Mossad had to have been behind it...
COMMENT #12 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 9:53 am PT...
COMMENT #13 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 10:00 am PT...
COMMENT #14 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 10:07 am PT...
Brad - thankyou thankyou thankyou!
I hope C-Span will make this Commission thingy available online later.
COMMENT #15 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 10:36 am PT...
isn't it David Ray Griffin ?
COMMENT #16 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 10:45 am PT...
Problem with CSPAN doing the Sept. 11 thing is, if they are gonna show this crap (election joke), do you think they are really goona show Sept. 11 in a "good for the people to know the truth" light? I'm betting it will all be twisted and edited to make the guy look like a quack, and they'll have "other views" presented to poke fun at the evidence and try to turn it into something laughable. I have my doubts that Shrubman and his cronies would let something damning show up on TV.. hell, they aren't even letting us vote anymore..
COMMENT #17 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 10:53 am PT...
Is Carter even in the room? has he said anything other than liking Baker?
I'm hoping he goes on the record stating how screwed up this whole thing is. If he doesn't speak out, I'll have no respect for the man anymore (he's treading on thin ice now with his like of Baker).
COMMENT #18 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 10:53 am PT...
COMMENT #19 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 11:18 am PT...
LOL.. Blackout... was that technical difficulties? or did they actually say they were "closing access" for a bit?
I think someone struck a nerve letting that professor talk about evoting problems.. woot!
COMMENT #20 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 11:20 am PT...
Based upon on the Baker remark ...do you think Carter's a crook??????????? Do you think he's part of the Fascist Elitists?
This is unbelieveable........ this is just a giant conspiracy.
Bush, Chaney, Rummy, Rove, Delay, Frist, Carter, Baker must think were all as stupid as their "blind to truth" Republican constituency?
They don't get it ... the severity of their actions ...lack of truthfulness ... coverling up lies with more lies ... treating Americans like there dumb animals ...this will end up a civil war.
They don't get it ... the games over.
COMMENT #21 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 11:29 am PT...
Re # 20: Based upon on the Baker remark ...do you think Carter's a crook???????????
HE'S MUCH WORSE!
and it's based on a lot more than this one remark!
COMMENT #22 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 12:08 pm PT...
Well, time to revise my assessment of Jimmy Carter, I guess. It seems like he's been dipping into the right-wing kool-aid. *sigh* Another illusion shot in the ass.
COMMENT #23 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 12:13 pm PT...
I do have to give kudos to John Fund for saying that election computer source code must be transparent and available for analysis.
And good job to Prof. Dill!
KS Secy of State? guy was lame. I missed the first panel completely and only heard the last ten minutes of the second. Barbara Arnwine was good as usual.
Thanks to Brad for his outstanding work and for covering this and for the info on Dickson. Hmmm...
Done rambling for now!
COMMENT #24 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 12:14 pm PT...
Yeah, I agree, they are depraved, but what is the line they tell their sheeple about WHY banning assault weapons is a bad idea? Or WHY that particular bill was "bad"? I guess I need to just find it & read it. Yes, Joan, do your damn homework.
COMMENT #25 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 12:25 pm PT...
I'm confused, as usual. How many blind people vote and how do they use touch screen or e-vote machines? Should this be an issue for this commission, or is it being used as ???
COMMENT #26 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 12:25 pm PT...
So blind people can't use paper ballots, but they can work a computer?
That's news to me. I guess blind people have never voted before. Certainly not here in Canada where everything is paper. I guess "brail" is just a conspiracy of the liberal media.
COMMENT #27 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 12:39 pm PT...
please, somebody, build a Bastille so we can storm it...
I don't know how much more bullshit I can swallow...it's very bad for the digestion.
COMMENT #28 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 12:40 pm PT...
re #22. Sorry, Joan. It hurts to get your illusions shot in the ass. But we will never be free until the same thing happens to ALL our illusions!
COMMENT #29 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 1:04 pm PT...
It's over? Wait! No proof? No affidavits? No videos? Not even one little bad voter registration with a silly name on it to wave around, place into evidence? C'mon, this worse than a joke. Hey! Where are your witnesses? Thats what I thought.
COMMENT #30 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 1:12 pm PT...
Well, there you have it folks.
April 18, 2005. The day Democracy officially was assinated.
Mark your calandars..
COMMENT #31 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 1:17 pm PT...
Yeah, I think my opinion of Carter is taking a down turn.
WP, I agree about illusions - I still believe that there is no such thing as an uncomfortable truth - truth gives me strength and in strength there is comfort.
Let's make sure that whatever recommendations are produced get the full works, no assumption left unchallenged, no testimony unchallenged. If it survives that, then by all means let it stand. If it falls, trample it and put it out of our misery, as I suspect that it will be a NeoCon friendly sack of shit.
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss..."
COMMENT #32 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 1:23 pm PT...
COMMENT #33 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 1:26 pm PT...
Hi everybody. My god - I'm shaking - these new developments have made me physically ill. I'm not kidding you.
Thank you Kes #9 "Courage, fellow patriots. While this is disheartening, we still fight the good fight - and make no mistake, we're more formidable and tenacious opponents than they thought we'd be."
The other night I saw a bit of a program on PBS about the Nazi propaganda film "Hitler Builds a City for the Jews.” Kurt Gerron a Jewish actor cum director was forced to direct the film. They murdered him shortly thereafter. How lovely it was for the Jews in Concentration Camps, according to the film, they were enjoying a better life than most people across the world. I couldn't help but make sickening comparisons.
There's just too much piling on from every direction and too much power held by corrupt forces. Stronger forces than ever before in history.
Rolling Stone article: The Long Emergency "Now we are faced with the global oil-production peak. The best estimates of when this will actually happen have been somewhere between now and 2010. In 2004, however, after demand from burgeoning China and India shot up, and revelations that Shell Oil wildly misstated its reserves, and Saudi Arabia proved incapable of goosing up its production despite promises to do so, the most knowledgeable experts revised their predictions and now concur that 2005 is apt to be the year of all-time global peak production.
It will change everything about how we live."
Molly Ivins: April 15th: You're Getting Screwed
"My favorite authority on taxes is David Cay Johnston of The New York Times, who won a Pulitzer for reporting on the terminally unsexy topic of taxes. His book Perfectly Legal --- The Covert Campaign to Rig Our Tax System to Benefit the Super-Rich --- and Cheat Everyone Else is the single best work on public policy of recent years, I think.""
Is this article a good one to send to all our Republican friends, neighbors, relatives, also leave a copy everywhere you go? Republicans seem to pay attention if you talk to their pocketbooks.
April 15th NY Times article: Frist Set to Use Religious Stage on Judicial Issue
"WASHINGTON, April 14 - As the Senate heads toward a showdown over the rules governing judicial confirmations, Senator Bill Frist, the majority leader, has agreed to join a handful of prominent Christian conservatives in a telecast portraying Democrats as "against people of faith" for blocking President Bush's nominees.
Fliers for the telecast, organized by the Family Research Council and scheduled to originate at a Kentucky megachurch the evening of April 24, call the day "Justice Sunday" and depict a young man holding a Bible in one hand and a gavel in the other. The flier does not name participants, but under the heading "the filibuster against people of faith," it reads: "The filibuster was once abused to protect racial bias, and it is now being used against people of faith."
Organizers say they hope to reach more than a million people by distributing the telecast to churches around the country, over the Internet and over Christian television and radio networks and stations.
We can’t let them get away with this!!! It’s going to take a huge velvet revolution in the streets. I believe that.
What was the C-span blackout? Intentional? The long arm of WH Propaganda flipped the switch? Another anomaly - just like all things incongruous regarding *S*Election 2004 favored bu$h?
COMMENT #34 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 1:38 pm PT...
Yeah, that Frist thing is very bothersome. But, keep in mind, christians have historically resorted to violence to try and push their religion down the throats of ... well, anyone they came across. They are just like the Islamic Fundamentalists that are engaging in terror acts now.
Problem is this.. when they start to try and push their religious "beliefs" down my throat, I'll be standing in my doorway with my .357. There's a REASON the Constitution put in a seperation of Church and State, there's a REASON the Founding Fathers warned of letting religion into government.. and that reason is, the people in the U.S. do NOT want to have religion forced on them. I believe there are enough "reason"able people in this country to put a stop to it (though, it's looking more and more like it will take a violent revolution with the current administration "fixing" things). We don't have to outnumber the religious fanactics, just be a better aim.
what makes me sad is, all the "reasonable" christians out there that just want to practice their religion in peace and don't want to force it down everyone elses throats.. those guys I have no problems with (and they are the ones -not- like the Fundamentalists out there killing people by the thousands each year). They are gonna be caught in the middle, driven to a furvor by the fanatics in this country and tricked into believing the lies of the far-right-fanatics..
What a mess is a brewin..
COMMENT #35 [Permalink]
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 4/18/2005 @ 1:39 pm PT...
Look at that photo. Baker is staring DOWN at Carter, as if to ask, "Do you understand what we're doing here?"
Who the hell was the president? Why is the fricking fox guarding the henhouse here? Jim Baker, a Bush flunky, monitoring election reform? Hello? Isn't that a bit like asking Willie Sutton to chair a forum on banking reform?
COMMENT #36 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 1:51 pm PT...
I'm glad everyone is waking up.
CARTER, for godsake! Don't you remember? He was an investor in BCCI, and you know, much more. He is a greedy low life like the rest.
Clinton did as much damage to this country as this administration, it was and is still hidden to many. These bastard Democrats are worse since they are nmasquerading as lovers of the people.
BULLSHIT! DON"T FALL FOR ANY OF IT!
COMMENT #37 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 1:58 pm PT...
I am waiting, hoping, praying for the day when my fellow citizens will stop worshipping other men... any of them... and realize that we are captains of our own ships. When we will stop wasting precious life force denigrating those in political power endlessly instead of taking life into our own hands. It starts with the will to do so and to not let anyone do it for us. They are pawns in our game.
COMMENT #38 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 2:07 pm PT...
Dream on, Teresa. There's a huge part of our population that worships "Stars" above and beyond common sense. They have given them Super-Human powers. Then there's the very real Republican Tin-Foil Heads - they're everywhere. They believe all these obvious LIES.
COMMENT #39 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 2:15 pm PT...
Yes, Kira. But I'm talking about us. It starts somewhere.
COMMENT #40 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 2:17 pm PT...
I am getting rather sickened by all this focus on what everybody else is doing wrong. What about each of us? And what we can do right?
COMMENT #41 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 2:21 pm PT...
where is the hearing taking place? We ought to call, fax, telegram, etc.
COMMENT #42 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 2:22 pm PT...
Yes it does and has, Teresa #39. But - how long have we been lulled with the fascist, American Dream propaganda? As long as I can remember.
Perhaps this new situation will build and foment real anger and outrage within the populace, but by the time it really takes, will we be in a dire situation as a nation?
Unfortunately, I believe we have crossed into a downward spiral largely attributable to bu$h's policies, and I'm not sure we'll be able to stop the inertia. I used to be a perpetual optimist, but that has all changed. It all looks very grim to me.
COMMENT #43 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 2:25 pm PT...
Until today, I thought of Carter as the only president in the last 40 or so years that was not corrupt. I no longer feel this way.
Read this link describing Carter's history on election monitoring.
Here is a clip from the web page.
Carter Certifies a Stolen Election: Dominican Republic 1990
In 1993, I spent several hours interviewing Juan Bosch, the Dominican Republic's most notable democratic political leader. He told me that in the aftermath of the presidential elections of 1990, which he legally won, his opponent, the rightist, pro-US Juan Balaguer, engaged in massive theft, witnessed by poll watchers. Jimmy Carter headed the mission "monitoring" the election. Bosch presented Carter with a wealth of documents and testimony, witnesses and photos of Balaguer supporters dumping ballots in the river. Carter acknowledged the corruption and fraud, but urged Bosch to accept the results "to avoid a civil war". Bosch accused Carter of covering up to gain a US client. He led a march of 500,000 in protest. Carter certified Balaguer as the product of a "free election" and left. Balaguer proceeded to repress, pillage and privatize basic services.
COMMENT #44 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 2:25 pm PT...
The problem is, the trap is set and sprung. Middle America, while slipping fast, are kept in a spot where they "have some stuff, and an ok and comfortable life".. That covers about 60% of the population. Then you have 10% up top, WAY above the means of "middle America".. then you have 30% on the bottom.. living in squaller, and middle America believing "those scumbags on welfare don't want to work, they want a free handout!". until "the bulk" of America gets it through their thick (and fat and lazy) skulls that we all need to support eachother, and if we refuse to let that top 2% own almost everything, we -all- can live better and no one has to starve.. until that happens, we're lost.
yes, we have a movement going where more and more people are taking notice. But, it's human nature to -not- rock the boat when rocking means you might not have a place to sleep or food to eat. Survival plays into this, and in a world where you "don't have your own land" and can't be "self sufficient", not getting tossed out on your arse is an immidiate concern. When the Founding Fathers were fighting for freedom, they didn't have to worry (as much) about a bank taking their house.. or illegal/rogue government agencies taking their bank accounts and houses and leaving them on the streets. If we all had our own land that was "ours" outright, some place we could grow our own food, chop trees for heat/fuel, raise animals, etc.. things would be a bit different. People with families don't want to explain to their 6 year old kid that is going hungry for the 4th day "dady is making a point sweety".
Until enough of middle America signs on (and Shrubman and his cronies are trying to keep that from happening), you are asking people to sacrafice everything despite signs showing it will be for not.
I agree.. it starts somewhere.. and it's started here. But it's not far enough along (yet) for people to uproot and give up all they have. It's kind of hard to convince "normal people" of what's going on when you haven't bathed in weeks because you are homeless. You get labled "a whacko".. we don't need more wackos in the mix, we already have too many Repugs.
COMMENT #45 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 2:28 pm PT...
Kira #37 - You reminded me of my favorite poem, one I've kept above my desk since I can remember, one I memorized and meditate upon whenever life hits hard.
For those who are unfamiliar with it:
by William Ernest Henley; 1849-1903
Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.
In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.
Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find me, unafraid.
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate;
I am the captain of my soul.
They're fighting hard against us now - that means we are no longer insignificant - we are rattling their cages. This is no time to give up.
BTW, re: President Carter - He was one of my heros, in fact the only President I ever really liked - and I was too young to vote for him. I don't want to believe he's as corrupt as the rest, and I'll suspend judgement until all is said and done - but I gotta tell ya, it ain't lookin good so far.
COMMENT #46 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 2:30 pm PT...
Everytime one of you rolls over and plays dead, doesn't sick up for himself, and goes on and on ad nauseaum about the fascist bullshit and the hopelessness of life, it affects me.
COMMENT #47 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 2:31 pm PT...
BTW, I had to work today and didn't get to watch CSPAN except for a few minutes - and wouldn't you know, they took lunch the same time I did.
If someone finds a site with a good synopsis, or has time to summarize it all for us, I'd be most grateful.
COMMENT #48 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 2:33 pm PT...
We are the heroes.
We are the only way out.
And yes, we are the Captains of our Souls.
Until we recognize this, we cannot ever hope to be free.
COMMENT #49 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 2:36 pm PT...
LETTER TO CARTER CENTER
(sent about two minutes ago)
Subject: Don't help GOP steal our votes!
President Carter will undo all the good work he has done overseas if he helps the GOP cover up the theft of our votes through partisan owned, rigable voting machines and blatant voter suppression.
Please urge President Carter to make all of the proceedings public. They aren't talking about nuclear secrets or where Cheney's bunker is in there--they are talking about OUR right to vote!
If even Jimmy Carter is following the orders of this heartless corporate machine masquerading as the republican party, what Democrat do we have to turn to?
This is a critical turning point in American history. Please don't let President Carter be remembered as an active accomplice in the destruction of the American middle class and our Democracy as the GOP pulls down to the level of a Third World dictatorship.
COMMENT #50 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 2:38 pm PT...
You wonderful, sometimes kind- hearted people have no idea what real oppression is like. My family was almost wiped out in the concentration camps of WWII. We are well-fed, warm in homes with three + bathrooms, lawns and gardens to tend, loving pets to fondle, still shopping to our hearts delight, and consuming tons of petroluem products every day.
We should be filled with gratitude at our good fortune, at the same time doing what is necessaey to protect ourselves.
COMMENT #51 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 2:40 pm PT...
re: my own #47 - well DUH!! nevermind
I'll find the information where I ALWAYS find it - BRADBLOG!
I think I need to do a defrag or somethin.
COMMENT #52 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 2:41 pm PT...
Good points everyone. Savanster #44, I really believe it will be within the next 3 to 5 years that a LOT of people will find themselves in the very real struggling to survive - homeless - situation. The new Bankruptcy laws will send thousands into the streets.
I have never agreed with Sanctions being leveled on poor countries for the same reason I believe witholding Welfare from the poor only creates more crime and social ills. A huge percentage of Americans are on Welfare because of the Iron Fist of prejudice they encounter while trying to find employment. Most Americans now live at just above the poverty level. This is very real & just beginning, but now has gained even more momentum. See Poverty in America
Here in the US 35.9 million people, 1 out of every 8, live in poverty. That's 1.3 million more than last year, and 3 million more than 2 years ago.
What will it be NEXT year?
COMMENT #53 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 2:42 pm PT...
Teresa, I think you are confusing some things into one thought that shouldn't be.
Complaining about "fascist bullshit" is -far- from "hopelessness of life". We aren't saying "ok, time to give up. They won".. we're saying "holy rigged batshit, Bat Man!".. no one is giving up, not that I've seen.
I agree, talking all day doesn't look to be doing much, and we'll need a "next step" here before long. But saying "give up everything you have and fight now" is also going a bit far. People are afraid to lose what little they have, it's a natural reaction. Once we have "enough" people willing to "make noise", we can do more. Talking and exposing the truth to people causes them to make noise.. Screaming in a vaccume does not good, we need these other voices to give air and life to our song.
COMMENT #54 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 2:45 pm PT...
We are very very far from a third world dictatorship. It is important to assess the situation as accurately as possible in order to come up with a solution to the problem.
COMMENT #55 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 2:54 pm PT...
I've checked the C-SPan schedule and it seems the David RAY
Griffin lecture on 9/11 is not being shown tonight. I was told
it's being taped for later broadcast.
While the web sites linked in posts 13 and 18 are well worth a
look, I would urge people new to the 9/11 truth issue NOT to get
too involved in that right now. It's a real Pandora's box and
can become an obsession.
The most important thing to do right now is prepare for the fight
about the voting machines when the velvetrevolution ultimatum
comes due on the 21st. I hope VR is ready with the list of all
the companies that will need boycotts and informational picket
As to 9/11--be aware that there are explosive facts that have
been suppressed by the US media (but not foreign media).
Next year will be the year of 9/11 truth.
COMMENT #56 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 2:58 pm PT...
SHRIEK!!! We are NOT very very far from a third world dictatorship! (IMHO)
Who is willing to stand up for our Democracy which was assassinated today? How many politicians are not a part of the megalomaniacal corporatista fascist movement? What do we get on the news but glaring propaganda?
People are disappearing from our country ala Nazi & KGB.
The Repukes are dismantling the last parts of our Constitution that will allow us to have any say in our government.
Everything to do with our efforts to show the world there is a serious problem with our election system is met with total BLACKOUT by the media. This is not serious third world, Banana Republic stuff???
COMMENT #57 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 3:02 pm PT...
Kes #45 - thank you for the poem. It reminds me of Viktor Frankl. I will light a candle and meditate on it tonight.
COMMENT #58 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 3:06 pm PT...
Kira, friend. The judicial branch of the government is the most important in protecting the people. They can't seem to get control of that. Without it, they are doomed.
COMMENT #59 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 3:06 pm PT...
Here's a good sight into what Dems and Repugs are up to.. and what Shrubman thinks is ok (given that he's a multi-millionare and has no worries about working, hell, he's not working now as President)
raising the age is NOT the answer
Here's a thought.. don't raise the age... don't raise the "tax" from 12.4%.. cap the benifits to current levels (based on a $90,000 contribution cap), but REMOVE the 'contribution' limit.. let the tax apply to EVERY dollar earned.. why is it capped at $90,000??? If someone makes $20,000,000, why is the last $19,910,000 not counted ? why is it that people in this country find it acceptable to let rich folks GET RICHER on OUR BACKS, but not contribute to the society overall?
Again, I think MOST of the problem is MOST people don't have a clue, and swallow the rotten goo sentiment about "being fair means not asking those with HUGE amounts of money over and above 'average' to contribute.. they worked hard for theirs, and if you work hard for yours you won't want to give it away to lazy scum either". That mentality has to go.. we have to stop letting rich folks get laws passed that keeps billions and billions in their pockets that will have to be made up on the backs of average wage-earners who can barely make it now.
COMMENT #60 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 3:08 pm PT...
Don't you think perhaps this desperate effort to grab everything now is because they know the writing is on the wall. The corporations are headed for troubled waters.
COMMENT #61 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 3:08 pm PT...
aw crap.. I messed up that link.. figures..
COMMENT #62 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 3:09 pm PT...
Hope my end tag helped!
Teresa, I hope you don't think I'm yelling at you. I'm just so frustrated and I really believe things are worse than you perceive them to be. I only hope you are right.
COMMENT #63 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 3:15 pm PT...
Savanster #59 - the super rich & corporations use loop-holes to keep from paying most if not all of their taxes, yet they use the same things funded by tax dollars that the rest of us poorer citizens use. We pay their way so they can get even richer and we get poorer. Nauseating.
COMMENT #64 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 3:18 pm PT...
Kira, things are horrible. They always are politically. But good things are always happening too. You really have to experience a 3rd world country, extreme poverty, brutal dictatorship, police state fear, and REAL hopelessness to know how good we have it. We have had way way worse times in this country.
If anyone wants to play the victim role, they are free to do that.
I can't function from that perspective. I don't want to force my view on anyone, so forgive me. But when I am in nightmarish episodes in my life I always get through them in good shape. It might just be luck.
COMMENT #65 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 3:25 pm PT...
Teresa, I still think you are American Dream*ing. I'm afraid that it's not a very big step into the third world police state you are describing.
Look how masses are being swayed by the "double-speak" coming from the WH already. Using the double-speak and Orwellian language, people just wouldn't get that they were living a nightmare if they believed it was paradise.
COMMENT #66 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 3:27 pm PT...
Yes, loopholes when they can't get blatant laws passed. But, they are repealing the Estate Tax (which only effected people with 'estates' worth $1.5 mil and up). And they are trying to get the 'Capital Gains' tax removed. Given that "super rich" people make millions a month on the market, they stand to gain the "most" from that, and the difference will fall on our shoulders.
I think we agree that the rich write the rules to use us to get richer. My point is, Shrubman is making it more blatant and since so many Americans are clueless, they think removing the "estate tax" and "capital gains tax" is a "good" idea.. hey, they have houses and investments, right? and following the "mantra" I stated above, they belive it's more fair to not make rich people pay with these systems, in part because only rich people have "lots of tax dollars generated" by such tax. In it's place, the commission Bush delegated to come up with new ways to generate revenue are probably going to add a consumption tax on our income tax (which is already un-Constitutional) and I'm sure there will be TONS of 'loopholes' for business (and rich folks) to dump those 'taxes' from their gross incomes as well, but not for the average joe.. so, again, we'll be sucking up the bulk of the expense so 2% or so of our society can live "the high life".
COMMENT #67 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 3:34 pm PT...
Just one more thing. I feel the battle is upon us. The army is only as good as its weakest link. So the enthusiastic ones automatically try to pump up the fearful ones. Animals do it too as they prod the hurt to get them to keep up. We can't wallow in self pity now. We can tend to the wounds later. And we can turn the rage into a victory if we so choose.
I once saw a documentary on an elephant called Eli, who was too large and came out of the womb with folded legs. He couldn't reach his mother's milk. She tried and tried to help him stand, and he struggled so much. She finally left him alone on the plain overnight.. it was beyond belief, the sadness.... and the next morning, when she came for him he stood up and wrapped his mouth around her teat. I wept and cried with joy. I will never forget it. He grew up to be the most feisty elephant in the group.
COMMENT #68 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 3:40 pm PT...
And please... this is much bigger than politicians. It is about triumph and the will to live. And faith.
COMMENT #69 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 3:53 pm PT...
Absolutely Savanster #66 - my points exactly. AND a LOT of the money they are siphoning off from us working poor will go into off-shore banks, not re-invested in the US. Did anyone listen to the really HOT speech made by Bernie Sanders April 13th? Another True American Patriot. Listen here (thanks to Air America):
House Votes to Make Estate Tax Permanent
"The Republicans had their way in the House today. The most wealthy people in this country might never pay taxes for anything again, but they'll still demand that the roads be paved and the schools provide good education."
And this story from Washington Post:
Erosion of Estate Tax Is a Lesson in Politics - A Break for the Well-to-Do Becomes an Everyman Issue
"Congressional action since 2001 will likely bring down the number of taxable estates still further. President Bush's 10-year, $1.35 trillion tax cut in 2001 began a decade-long phase-out of the estate tax. The portion of an estate exempted from taxation was raised from $675,000 in 2001 to $1.5 million in 2004. Next year, the exemption will rise to $2 million for individuals and $4 million for couples.
The impact has been clear, tax policy analysts say. The number of estates filing tax returns is falling sharply, from 123,600 in 2000 to an expected 63,800 this year. And only a small fraction of those will actually be taxed."
And there's lots more in that article that seriously frightens me about what will be happening to us Average American Joe's in a very short time.
COMMENT #70 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 3:56 pm PT...
Teresa #67, I saw that same documentary and felt like you described! Love it. I've always loved elephants and just hate that the repukes use their image. The Rs are in NO WAY like the majestic elephant.
COMMENT #71 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 4:08 pm PT...
COMMENT #72 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 9:14 pm PT...
I'm afraid you're wrong. Bushism is the apotheosis of fascism, fascism without an objective enemy (like Jews or Muslims), but with a sole objective: the ascendency of corporate power - which has NO human component. As in: allow a machine to seek its own benefit at the expense of all organic value.
Hitler was a mere foreshadowing. True evil is amongst us now.
We on BradBlog who rant and rave are not diluting the massive humanistic effort to stem this anti-life tide. We, when we applaud champions, are not "creating saviors" out of whole cloth. We are praising courage in the face of unimagineable evil. And we are keeping, like cheerleaders, hope of history alive.
And a few "rants" and "Oh gods" are entirely appropriate, it seems to me.
COMMENT #73 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 11:00 pm PT...
Rants are good. But Peg, I think you use people as whipping posts for your rage and power urges. You can be extreme. And you never let up.
It's not just the fascists. It's all of us. We all need to improve ourselves to have a good country.
And to be honest.
COMMENT #74 [Permalink]
said on 4/18/2005 @ 11:09 pm PT...
Let me go on. You have a dominating personality which can be abrasive. So do I. It's normal that we tangle. One of my biggest flaws is the fact that I am so sure of my opinions and people don't like it. I admit that fully, and believe it or not, I work on it. I also fully expect conflict, but I always hope that others are self aware, even if they don't admit it publically. We are all flawed, and the more we avoid ourselves and focus excessively on what others are doing wrong, we will never get there.
I also think it is cruel to try and scare people.
COMMENT #75 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 1:03 am PT...
It doesn't look like they do control the judicial branch. The Supreme Court has refiused to even hear some of the things they tried to get through..abortion reform, marijuana, gay marriage.
The judges in the Schiavo case even called Bush's midnight emergency law unconstitutional. They are trying to get the filibuster for judicial nominees banned, but that doesn't look good either.
So far, they don't control it.
It also looks like they might lose control of the House in '06. People are getting fed up.
I also don't think they have as much control of the executive as it appears. So many people are sick of their bullshit.
It's tough going, but we have been under administrations like this before and we've wiggled out.
COMMENT #76 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 1:10 am PT...
I hope you're right, Teresa. I really do.
Question - when bu$h talks about making things "permanent" i.e. the tax breaks for the super rich - are these things really permanent? Will there be anyway to change them under a new administration?
COMMENT #77 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 2:00 am PT...
QUESTION: Does anyone know who convened this commission in the first place? Whose idea was it? Who decided on the panel members? Is this a government-sponsored thing?
COMMENT #78 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 2:11 am PT...
Kira, I don't know for sure what's in store. I haven't been involved in politics for years because they are so crooked. But this bunch went too far, so here I am. Because my family suffered under a real dictator, I suppose I am not as alarmed as some. Nor are the surviving members of my family who are in this country now. And they know the signs of danger well. When they herd you into ghettos and make you wear stars, you know you have really lost your autonomy. I know I'd be out of here before that ever happened. This kind of corruption is so old hat. It's been in government forever, and this extreme comes and goes.
It is very very difficult to control populations completely, unless they are so beaten down by real starvation and extreme things like that. We are still living high on the hog, and that should change, but I doubt that we will all be in poverty.
We need a tax hike. No doubt. They can do that anytime. We have to eventually do what's good for the country. It seems to me that under the circumstances we will have to have a Democrat in the WH in '08. We will have no choice but to raise taxes. The Republican Party is falling apart.
If I am wrong, and I have been a lot lately, and we descend into an Orwellian totalitarian state, I won't be here. Nobody dictates to me the kind of life I have. I am in charge of that, and I will do what is necessary to protect myself and enjoy everything life has to offer.
COMMENT #79 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 2:17 am PT...
Just don't let them scare you. That's what they are trying to do. They are more scared than anyone. A lot of it is bluff.
COMMENT #80 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 2:48 am PT...
Teresa - I'm glad you don't live in poverty, but fully a third of our population currently lives in poverty at least 2 months out of the year and the numbers are rising.
This is from Poverty USA - On average, one out of every three Americans - 34.2 percent of all people in the United States - are officially classified as living in poverty at least 2 months out of the year. (U.S. Census Bureau, Dynamics of Economic Well-Being: Poverty 1996-1999, July 2003.)
The bottom line poverty level ($16 thousand something per year) is without adding in things that everybody must have to live & work in this country. Things like cleaning supplies, bus fare, school supplies, clothing, and more - I can't remember the entire list, but when added up the base poverty level was around $40,000/yr. income. Guess what the median household income is for the US? Between $40,000 and $45,000.
Also - guess which voters were disinfranchised on a large scale? Well, it wasn't the very rich who want to make sure they never have to pay tax. bu$hco has massively cut funding for the poor. It seems to me they have been herded into ghettos with more on the way.
And this is another page I think you must read to understand the very real problem we're facing with poverty.
Poverty USA: The Working Poor
COMMENT #81 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 3:10 am PT...
I'm adding one more article to the list from CNN Money - December 30, 2004:
Millions of Americans live in poverty, more families are suffering and hunger is seen growing.
Millions of working Americans are struggling to find adequate food, health care and housing for their families. Unable to earn a living wage, many have resorted to food banks and community centers for help. But according to the Challenger report, many of those institutions say that making the increased demand even worse is the fact that "donations and government funding are at all-time lows."
COMMENT #82 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 3:11 am PT...
COMMENT #83 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 3:22 am PT...
Kira, I live on $15,000 a year and that is high for me. And I live well. I never eat out, never go to movies, buy everthing used or on sale, make my own clothes, do my own repairs when I can, never travel, don't have high speed Internet, and don't buy things I can't afford. I have never been in debt. I have always lived this way because I cherish my freedom. I don't want things. I have plenty. And it all can be recycled. I barely pollute because I consume so little.
The people in this country are fat and overindulged. Even those on the $40,000 poverty level don't know what poverty really is.
I'm not saying there are not grave problems, I'm just saying that the people of this country are spoiled. Try living in a cardbaord shack with hardly any food. The people here do not appreciate the great life we have, and it is slipping away because of this. All they want is more. Every day they fill their plastic bags with more shit.
All of this crybabying about the oil companies, and just look at how many petroleum products each person consumes each day. Until this whole world starts cutting back on this massive consumption, there will be no solution to these problems. You can't blame Bush. You can't even blame the corporations because we demand their cheap products.
Getting a vote counted won't solve it either, although that is important.
People in tbis country eat the crappiest food imaginable, they watch TV endlessly which is one of the most sickening things known to man, they chase high stress situations and lap up pain and negativity, and then get sick. That's where they are really in trouble. We have a drug dependent society. They can barely move let alone overthrow a government.
Until we care enough about ourselves to live a life of self respect, we will continue on this path.
The greed and consumption of every individual has got to be reduced.
COMMENT #84 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 3:30 am PT...
Temporarily breaking my silence.
In this one comment, Teresa sums up just about everything that is wrong with this country and the fat , lazy slobs gorging themselves on the excess, and that includes me. If you don't like what is happening now, first look in the mirror and then get your asses into the streets where you might actually be heard.
COMMENT #85 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 3:39 am PT...
COMMENT #86 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 3:42 am PT...
One big bag of Fritos: $3.00
Quart of RC cola:$1.00 or something
I can eat for a week on that:
Pound of brown rice:$.75
Two pounds of tofu:$3.00
Loaf of bread:$1.50
Black bean soup lasting full week:$2.00
And I still have money left over.
COMMENT #87 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 3:44 am PT...
COMMENT #88 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 4:04 am PT...
Kira, you're doin' great. Keep it up, woman. They'll never get you.
COMMENT #89 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 6:22 am PT...
Teresa, you wrote:
"It doesn't look like they do control the judicial branch..."
Not yet, but they are getting very very close. And I don't think comparisons to fascism are at all far-fetched. Here's a link to Laurence W. Britt's "Fascism, Anyone?", in which he lists 14 characteristics of fascism. They look awfully familiar to me!
I've often been touched & heartened by your posts, Teresa, but some of your most recent comments have troubled me. Alot of denigrating...and surely you know that you are not alone in having experienced life under dictatorial rule.
I have to agree with Peg: I see real evil afoot in this country. You are right that it's not new, but it has been & continues to be honed relentlessly and is, I believe, extremely dangerous. If I may quote Radiohead:
..."We're not fear-mongering...This is really happening...!"
COMMENT #90 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 7:07 am PT...
A main issue is that we US citizens of the most powerful country, militarily, in the world have special citizen duties. The UK and Canada as allies are closely tied to that.
We consume more of the earth's resources per capita than other nations.
I think we need a global consciousness and that we cannot pat ourselves on the back because we are comfortable.
It is not US against the world, it has to be US for the world.
I mean that in the sense we need to formulate beliefs, strategies, ways and means, and goals that are beneficial for all nations.
Ridding the world of dictatorships, oppression, violence, poverty, disease, and depravity are central to the citizen. And central to that is doing it without the moral bankruptcy of military conquest.
Sometimes our citizenship requires taking to the streets in condemnation of our politicians and corporations. Let them see our emotions at times.
I think our citizenship always requires diligent monitoring of and criticism of those in power.
Not because we are comfortable or uncomfortable, but because we know power corrupts.
It is our duty to keep them on course while they are being soaked in the toxins of power.
It is a duty toward them to help them keep to the straight and narrow, and a duty to fellow men who would otherwise suffer.
That is where the populace, the MSM, and government are WAY, WAY off track now.
We gotta get back to:
1) responsible individualism
2) responsible nationalism
3) responsible internationalism
COMMENT #91 [Permalink]
Joseph M Berry
said on 4/19/2005 @ 9:01 am PT...
This hearing was and is so patronizing and misleading I could bear to watch it. It appears as though this so called voter fraud issue has gained a strong “foot hold” without anyone challenging how, compared to election fraud, this effected our past election process. Now, voter fraud is talked about parallel to one of the biggest problems effecting our past election: election fraud. This is the kind of deceptive practice that often gains life under the title of “fair and balanced”. We need to deal with what was a problem in our last election, not what will make gains for the Republican Party.
COMMENT #92 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 9:53 am PT...
"Does anyone know who convened this commission in the first place? Whose idea was it? Who decided on the panel members? Is this a government-sponsored thing?
We're working on figuring those things out, AmericanWoman. No, it isn't government sponsored. Working on figuring out who convened and who financed.
See the article over at RAW STORY on the Baker/Carter comm. Hopefully someon can post the link, since I gotta jump off and do a blogcall!
COMMENT #93 [Permalink]
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 4/19/2005 @ 12:14 pm PT...
Let's try to keep this so-called Election Reform Commission in perspective, if we can.
The only people who will find its hear-no-evil approach satisfying are the same people who call us "conspiracy theorists" to begin with. Their minds would never change, no matter what evidence of fraud was presented, because their views are driven by ideology and economic self-interest. These are the same people who put a numbskull like Bush in office.
We "conspiracy theorists" won't be satisfied by HAVA-like halfway measures and an avoidance of the word "fraud," as if only the Ukraine, Ethiopia, and Venezuela hold crooked elections. And as long as Baker is on that committee, halfway measures are the best anyone could hope for, anyway.
So nothing has really been gained or lost by Jimmy Carter's inertia. We can still speak truth to power. Why not ignore the commission from now on, and get back to work?
COMMENT #94 [Permalink]
Blue Oasis in a Red Desert
said on 4/19/2005 @ 12:24 pm PT...
I'm confused by all of this since I only watched part of this not knowing about it before hand. I usually like Jimmy Carter? I wish John Conyers was a part of this and I'm glad he's mad. We need more John Conyers in Congress! I think the time is near for us to march on DCA for honest elections! A Fascist Theocracy is knocking at our doors.
COMMENT #95 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 12:28 pm PT...
While I agree with you that a lot of people are "fat and lazy" in America, part of -why- they are comes from several fronts.
One front is corperations. They have something to sell so their job is to convince you you need it. There are plenty of people out there that don't fall for it, but lots of people do. Part of the reason we have laws on what advertising can and can't say is to make sure people aren't being "lied" to.. to prevent people from being 'overly' tricked into getting things they don't need, or don't do what they claim to. Advertising works for many reasons, but some of the most powerfull are from the "other fronts" listed below..
another front is, people work more and harder now than they did a few decades ago (in general). If you want a "nice home" to raise your kids, you need money. If you want reliable transprotation to get you to work/shopping/etc, you need a car.. that's money. If you want to make sure your kids can get their arms put back together if they fall from a tree while playing, you need medical insurance.. that's money.. or the alternative, save the cash so you can pay for the cast outright. Living day to day takes money, and to get money you have to work (in general terms).. but it's getting harder and harder to "have a nice home", so a LOT of families in this country now have to have -both- parent working (and at those kinds of jobs, sometimes 3 jobs for the 2, and long hours overall). That translates to a LACK of time and energy for a lot of things. Advertising tends to tell you how "this product can save you time doing what you need to do anyway" (like disposable mops now.. those make me sick, all the resources we're pissing away with that).
Yet another front, tied to the above, and feeding into the first issue, is people get stressed out with all the worrying they have to do. Worried about losing that $12/hr job which means losing either the car or house (if they don't own either outright). That stress builds up which causes people to look for "escapes" (the drug problem you mention.. personally, I see nothing wrong with a little pot smoking for recreational purposes.. it's not as damaging as alchohol.. it's one of the most 'gentle' drugs out there). Another form of escape (besides drugs) is "shopping" or "eating" or "any vice that distracts from your stress".
Another interesting thing about human nature is, when you see someone else doing something, you have an empathy with that. This applies to almost -everything- you see (heinous acts probably cause revulsion instead of an empathetic, but in general). So, you see someone laughing and eating an icecream cone.. your brain figures that cone might make you laugh some too (it's a root drive, not a force that controls you.. but the presence is the point). You see someone driving a nice car and they look happy, you start to think a nice car might make you happy. You see someone looking relaxed and cozy in their front yard picking up the morning paper infront of their big house and you think if you had a big house you might be cozy and relaxed. Why do you think the bible specifically says "thou shalt not covet they neighbor nor they neighbors things"? Because if you have the urge to have "nice stuff because someone else does", you might question the pope living in a golden palace, and business owners living in $60 million mansions..
So, we have this society where we SEE, every day, people (albeit becomming a smaller number of them) with very very nice stuff. Then you have tons of advertisments telling you "you deserve something nice for yourself", which we belive given our current "stressful life". Advertising plays on our fears, weakness, and reality of a busy life (for a lot of us). They convice us that we "need" this or that, and actually PERPETUATE the problem by getting us further in debt.. wasting money on things we don't need.. etc etc.
Here are 2 problems I see with what you are saying (even though I agree with the premise that, in general, Americans are fat, lazy, and stupid). We can't all make our own clothes. We don't all think surving on brown rice and tofu is something we could stomach for long. Personally, I like a good steak or burger now and again (and if I had my own land to raise animals on, I'd have them a lot more than I do now since it's so expensive now, and I disaprove of corperate farms and the way they do things). Black Bean soup sounds nausiating to me, and I don't like colliflower or avacado. So while it's something you don't mind eating, your diet won't work for me. As a side note, I've pretty much stopped buying soda (coke, pepsi, etc) and drink water with my meals (it's better for you anyway). I'll get a soda with a value meal if I get one (a few times a month), or juice if I can get a good deal on it. I'm living on about $150/mo in food (that climbs to $200 on occasion, but I'm trying to keep it down). There was a time when I was eating on $60/mo in college and in a country (and world) where there's no real need to suffer like that, I don't want to do it again (I also lived in the streets for 2 years where I would steal food and live on handouts, so I know it gets worse than when I was in college too).
Living as minimalists isn't something we "need" to do as a global community. Stopping the waste and wanton disregard for the planet should happen immidiately. If we put a concerted effort into "fixing" things, we'd go a long way to making the entire world a better place to live... but here's the problem (some of them anyway). You have people out there (like Oprah for example) who think paying $3 million for a TOILET is a good investment. That money could feed thousands of people in a 3rd world nation for months or maybe even a year. Instead, someone is shitting on that money, literally. Bill Gates built a $65 million home in Washington State. Wastefull? Greedy? Pretentious? you bet.. but it's a premise in this country that it's your money to do with as you please. That premise is a double-edged sword.. Just like I can spend -my- money any way I want, so can Bill. The -fact- that he has that much money and lives like that causes -other- people to "feel an empathy" for those conditions and strive for them. They don't want anyone telling them how to spend their money, so they don't tell Bill how to spend his. I suppose the point of this paragraph is, there will always be people in the world that want their mansions, so trying to "build utopia" won't happen any time soon. Until -everyone- believes we should be working to make the "world" a better place (for everyone, not just the priveledged few), we aren't gonna go anywhere. Part of how we get that to happen is, "politicians" have to force companies back into their boxes and stop letting them destroy the planet for profit, and stop letting them "convince" us we need things we don't, and makes them pay a decent wage so we can get out of this vicious cycle of "keep stress on with low wages, keep 'wants' high with contant bombardment of images, keep encouraging waste in the name of convienence/time/etc". Until we "force" companies to be responsible (you see the commercial for the new 'venus' disposable razors? That's a LOT of plastic/rubber/OIL being tossed twice a week.. and for what???), they will suck the money and life out of us, and divert that to the "owners" (board and officers, by and large). Why do you think so many people "play in the market"? They want some of that money so they can "live better lives".
Another thing to consider in this "utopia".. if you want to be able to have "everyone" have a decent quality of life, you have to change people's attitudes on reproduction. The planet is being overpopulated (and quite rapidly now that 'industrialized nations' are interfering with the health of 3rd world countries) and there simply isn't enough clean water and food to go around (though, we could probably sustain currently if we STOP growing, and redistribute all the 'stuff' in the US and other industrialized nations to the entire planet). When people have 3 or more kids for a pairing/couple, they 'contribute' to the problem. But, do we have a right to tell someone "you can only have 2 kids so we don't flood the planet"? Techinically, no, we don't have a right to do that. Individuals need to understand that they are killing the planet for the future if they have 3 or more kids. Yet, we see "rich" folks have 4, 5, 6 or more all the time.. we also see the poorest in this country do it, and STILL try to say abortions are wrong. We see it in 3rd world nations -all the time- because death used to claim most of them, now we keep them alive with science that was never present there before. Those people keep having babies from the historical perspective that we needed more kids since most would die young, and we needed someone to take care of us when we got old. None of that is pertinant now, but the breeding habbits are still in place.
I guess my point is, while Americans need to cut back on their waste, they also need some relief from the strangle hold corperations have on them. Once they can get livable wages and have their needs met, it becomes easier to "educate" people and enlighten them. When you drive humans like animals, they -will- revert to their animal roots and act instinctively. If we, as a society, raise -above- that, we can try to 'fix the world'. Until we stop letting people like Bill Gate steal to get rich (who is, by the masses, considered some kind of god despite his clear crimial ascension), then USE the people to keep getting richer (now the Air Force will be getting first test access to his security patches.. your tax dollars are being spent testing code of one of the richest people on the planet.. yeah, he can't afford to do it himself so -we- should pay for it). Did you know Bill Gates, that ONE person, has a net worth over what 100,000,000 combined Americans have? Yeah, that's right.. over 100 million Americans worth of "stuff" is what ONE person is "worth" in this country. And he cries about his company not making enough money? He has to charge so much for his operating system? and has to have the government test his stuff cause he can't afford to hire people to do it properly? These are the things we're lashing out against -first-. Until these HUGE imballances are fixed, all the people in the country switching to "brown rice and colliflower" will only drive up the price on those items. Not to mention, in order to have a house to live in, you have to have a job, and -most- people can't make their own clothes well enough to wear them to work, which means buying clothes..
Anyway, didn't mean to get into a dissertation here. It's just that there is a LOT more going on than "some fat lazy Americans".. and it starts with pulling down corperations to be responsible and accountable.. and that will never happen if we can't even get our votes counted and have -any- chance of installing "politicians" who -might- try to buck the system. A massive movement to "communes" (like they did in the 60s) isn't going to "fix" anything, it's just going to remove the "good people" from the mix which will only serve to make things worse (though, I agree... the more we are self-sufficient the better, but society evolves for a reason.. we just need to keep the beast in line while we enjoy the benifits of technology and advancement)
COMMENT #96 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 12:36 pm PT...
Oh.. forgot to mention.. the "buying things used, not new".. erm, if everyone stopped buying "new things", there would, quite rappidly I think, be a lack of "all things" since, by definition, used means "was once new, but isn't anymore".. and "used" things wear out (sometimes by design). If we all stop buying "new" and only buy "used", what happens when everything is broke beyond repair?
I'm also curious.. if you never go to movies, do you rent them? And what do you do for entertainment (other than some internet stuff on your 'low speed' connection)? You -do- realize that, without 'industry', there would be no internet, right? If we didn't progress technologically, there would be no internet... no phone.. no electricity.. etc etc. Part of progress demands some of what's going on in the world, and progress is a good thing (medicine, art, knowledge). It has the power to benifit -everyone- and make life better for -everyone-.. we just have to use it properly.. and corperations use it for profit at the expense of everything else, and suck all the rest of us in with it. -We- have to put the reigns on and control it.. which is where votes and politics comes in. That's our venue for control, that's our system of "law" and regulation that can control it all.. but it requires a change of attitued accross the board. The attitude we need to get rid of is "I deserve everything at the cost of anyone it takes", which is the mentality of the rich in this country, fed by the politicians, put in place (normally) by an abuse populace.. *shrug*
COMMENT #97 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 12:47 pm PT...
Re: Teresa #58
"Kira, friend. The judicial branch of the government is the most important in protecting the people. They can't seem to get control of that. Without it, they are doomed."
But - don't they pretty well control the judicial branch of the government too? It seems to me all arms of our checks & balances are under Repub control.
COMMENT #98 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 1:20 pm PT...
Here's some food for thought.. Here is what we are up against when trying to get change in this country (not that I condone vandalism)
note the judge's response
COMMENT #99 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 2:48 pm PT...
Joan #90...please forgive me if you can. I did lose some self control. I think it's temporary.
I think cannabis will be legalized. I agree with what you said. I was talking about perscription drugs. The anti-depressant problem is one of our biggest in this society. It masks rage and steals will power. And it is epidemic. I read a figure that said 60% of the population is on at least one perscription drug. That scares me more than politicians. The politicians are ineffective without the people's compliance. Same with the corporations. I agree we have to get out of the stranglehold, but as I constantly repeat, we have to stop consuming so much of their shit. If we can't do it on a societal level(which we will have to do eventually), we should at least start on an individual level. You can make 1000 excuses and analyses, but it has to be done.
Today it was announced that coca-cola is in a bit of trouble. They are being boycotted in Europe right now.
Never in a million years would I expect people to be satisfies on my monk's diet. But I do think most could eat a little less and stay in better physical shape just in case we are called to action.
I have always entertained myself. I play music, I frolic in my house alone, I daydream. I have no TV nor do I have a video or DVD player, so I watch no movies. Today's movie stars are unbelievably boring to me. Plus I can't stand the jerky, fast camera movement of today's TV and movies. It upsets my equilibrium. And I absolutely can't tolerate for a minute having all those commodities violently thrown at me from the set. Plus the hideous constant screaming. It's the psycho ward, and I don't want it.
I read, I sing, I listen to sounds, I write poetry and songs, I work with my electronic music system which is endlessly fascinating, I cook slowly, I just remodeled my bathroom myself including $5 a gallon mistinted paint, and I live near 77 miles of trails so I can walk or run to my heart's content. Now that gas is so expensive, I am driving less.
You can get out of the corporate trap to some extent if you really have the will.
COMMENT #100 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 2:53 pm PT...
BTW, I just connected to the Internet for the first time several months ago, and until then, I did very well without it. I can take or leave a lot of things, and I can always find something interesting in life to focus on.
COMMENT #101 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 2:57 pm PT...
Re: Teresa #84,
Hey – you really do live an ultra frugal & Spartan life. I grew up in a very frugal environment and have been that way most of my life, although I have (since I married, later in life) slipped some but you have inspired me to finish my latest attempt to “Zen-ify” my life! Your diet wouldn’t suit me, very well, though. I enjoy homegrown tomatoes, peppers, herbs & would have to include fruits & more greens & more variety. And the KOOL-AID!! Teresa, you gotta get off that stuff, hon – really – it’s no good for human consumption.
I didn’t include in my posted information re: poverty that the $16,000-plus per year is for a family of 4 (2 parents & 2 kids.) You are living single? Do you own your home & property? Anyway, you can see the difference in the amount of money I’m talking about. I also remembered that medical costs aren’t included in that bunch of expenses and kids have to go to the doctor regularly. So, you see, your situation is quite different.
Yes – we all must buckle down and become serious about becoming more self-sufficient and frugal, but the thing that sticks in my craw is that corporations & the most wealthy Americans weasel out of paying any taxes. That leaves the middle-class (which is becoming the “working poor”) responsible for picking up the tab. This is unacceptable in my opinion and the blame falls squarely on duhbya’s shoulders. And truthfully – why should we work so hard – notice the work week hours are steadily being increased (legal slavery) so that the mega-rich can have the most exotic of everything served to them on a silver platter? And you, Teresa, and the other working poor are forced to make a choice between a box of tea or kool-aid – having to choose which 2 vegetables to buy for the week – having to eat pease porridge 9 days old, etc.
Another point; when the parents are working 2 or 3 jobs – how can they come home and prepare a meal from scratch, clean up, be with their kids, help the kids study, help the kids get ready for bed, be with their spouse, take time to do something for themselves (etc.) day after day, week after week without killing themselves? It’s rough - and the super-rich thieves like to say “they’re just lazy.” It’s just like the Republican spin against Liberals.
Americans are becoming fat & lazy. There are a lot of reasons for that. Where do kids have to play? Look at all the useless strip malls – half of them dead across the street from new ones going up. Who is responsible for tearing up hundreds of thousands of acres of beautiful pasture & woodlands – the playground for kids? More & more parents have to work 2 & even 3 jobs & have to leave their kids home alone. The kids have to lock the door & stay inside. What’s left to do except watch TV & play video games (hopefully after homework, but don’t count on it.) They have no guidance.
Women struggled for their right to work and sure enough, as soon as we won that right, the cost of living soared to match the combined income of husband + wife. We are not able to control these things if lawmakers continue pandering to the corporations.
Just a few thoughts.
PS Wrote this before reading your latest post #99. But you have to remember that this 1/3 of our population living in poverty cannot just pick up and move to a wonderful location like yours. How much does it cost in REAL MONEY to move? A whole lot.
And please, lets work hard to dis-empower the corporations. Believe me - we must.
COMMENT #102 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 3:09 pm PT...
I agree that 'we' need to back out of the consumer mindset we're in.. I'm trying to do that to a certian degree as well (as noted that I drink water instead of wasting money (and my health) on soda). I don't drive much either (though, I do own an SUV, but I acutally use it off-road so it's practicle, not a glorified mini-van). I'm not mucially inclined so I don't play music, and I hate radio (all those comercials) and most groups don't have enough to keep me entertained (I only own a dozen CDs or so). I also avoid "disposable" things.. I even bought a straight-razor to try and stop buying razor-heads for my shaver.. turns out I suck with the straight-razor .. I dislike running (hard on the knees anyway) and while I like being outside, I don't like wandering alone; I'd rather hike with someone. That leaves me to watch movies (I like some of those jerky camera movement ), but I don't like going to the theater as it's too expensive and I can't pause to potty..
As far as the population on perscription drugs.. I agree with you completely! Part of the problem, again, as I described in that small essay :blush: is that people are being told on TV like nuts "pop this pill and sleep better, pop this pill and lose weight, pop this pill and pay attention better, pop this pill and have a harder dick".. where is the end? Pharmacutical companies are moving into the consumer market more and more, and our government isn't doing it's job (the FDA approves drugs without substantial documentation, and the Supreme Court just put effedrine back on the shelves.. it was hurting business and people dying wasn't their fault.. cigarettes anyone?). The more companies want to make money, the more pills they make, and the more they convince you to take them to make life better.. but, as noted, life -would- be better if we got out of this stranglehold, right? Then -most- people taking pills to get by wouldn't need to.
I think we ultimately agree. The "consumer world" we live in is out of control. Corperations give a LOT of money to 'the right people' to get us all hooked on something (drugs, fast food, carcinogen-filled cigarettes, etc etc). But, politicians actually have the "power" to control companies since companies need special permission to "exist", unlike humans. Until the mindset is changed that companies "have rights like people", we're screwed.
as a side note.. it sounds like you live in a slightly remote area.. and that sounds nice.. but those areas are becomming more and more limited. And, the farther away from work you live, the more the cost of working. If you live in a 'nice' area 'just outside' of a populated area (suburbs), you pay a LOT for that space.. if you live 'way out there', it costs a lot less for the space, but your overall costs of living go up (if you have to commute to work to pay for it). I would love nothing more than to slink off on some land in the middle of nowhere in the mountians with a spouse/mate/partner and live.. That's just not a reality for "most" people..
COMMENT #103 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 3:14 pm PT...
In enjoyed that Kira... your last post.
I know about the Kool-aid. but I figure I'm old enough to outlive the destruction of my liver with all the chemical junk that's in it.
I've hogged the board enough for now, so I'm leaving it to all of you for a mo.
COMMENT #104 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 3:27 pm PT...
Just one response to Savanster. I live in a large metropolitan city. But it's in an enclave that is zoned to stay natural by a canal and a creek. Not expensive. No commuting and I can even walk along the canal to stores and everything. If you keep your eyes open, you can find good deals.
It's all really simple. But self discipline is required. You can't control the whole world, but you can control yourself. That's the best place to start. If you blame others for your misery, you are up Shit Creek, because of the power you give them. If you take responsibility for solving your life's problems, you possess the power, and you have a much better chance of succeeding.
I am not condoning bad behavior, I am merely trying to cleverly escape domination. I don't do well with entrapment and I WILL find a way out. It's ultimately my own traps that are the trickiest.
COMMENT #105 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 3:30 pm PT...
Teresa! You haven't hogged the board. Your posts are inspiring and thought-provoking. I keep feeling like we've "jumped" on you - but it's just that this is such a complex situation we find ourselves in lately.
I, like you, intentionally stayed out of politics for too many years. We're paying the price now.
I apologize if I've made you feel uncomfortable. Maybe it's I who should leave the board.
COMMENT #106 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 3:40 pm PT...
I also appologize if I came across as "jumping on you", that wasn't my intent. Kira, you should stay .. -none- of us should leave.. we're all just trying to express ideas here, and work toward solutions
With regard to Teresa #104 though.. I know you live in Denver (you mentioned it in another thread.. I live in the Springs). There are over 3 million people there, right? I understand that "you" found a nice little spot that has trails to walk and is walkable to where you need to get to, and that's great for you. However, what about the other 3 million people? There just isn't enough realestate in the world for everyone to live "close to work" and "near trails" and in a secluded context. Companies don't want to have 20 offices all over the city, they want one building where everyone that works there needs to go (not to mention, when you are talking about factories, you don't want that in your back yard, and making lots of factories would be prohibitive).
I guess the point is, as an individual you can "find a good deal" as you have.. but as a society, that's not a reasonable "solution".. does that make sense? Reality brings about a lot of other issues "for the masses".. Hell, I live less than 2 miles from work (I could walk or ride a bicycle, but I drive) and in a quiet neighborhood. However, had I bought my house "near work" a year earlier when the office I worked at was "across town", I'd be driving across town to work every day. Why? the company decided to shut down some offices and relocate us across town. If I take a job with a different company, now I'm not "close to work" anymore.. My costs go up, my stress goes up, etc.. I should sell my house, my home, and move 'closer to work'? and if there are no houses there? or if my new work happens to be near a nasty factory with pollution that politicians won't curtail? I hope you are seeing that, while 'trying to do something for your own life' is encouraged and needed, reality is, there isn't enough to go around for "everyone" to do that. Someone -has- to suffer so someone else can "have".. I just want to try and minimize the suffering all the way around..
COMMENT #107 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 3:40 pm PT...
1 more thing -
Please don't get me started on the pharmaceutical companies!! But - you brought up this love affair with drugs brought on by the pharmaceutical propaganda.
Last year I heard about this (see below) and have been considering it to possibly be a ploy to create a zombified slave-labor US population (I tried to find the original email I sent out last year, but failed - I quickly found this link & haven't read it carefully, but it looks pretty well researched):
Bush To Impose Psychiatric Drug Regime
This is already put in place in one of our states - perhaps Illinois - can't remember off-hand. The goal is to eventually test every child and then every adult in the US.
COMMENT #108 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 3:45 pm PT...
Oh my dear Kira,
Let's stop this nonsense, and post to our heart's content. There are plenty of threads for everyone here thanks to Brad's wisdom , generosity, and genuine love of people's freedom. If it's one thing I don't like, it is useless apologies. I try to save them for when I REALLY do something wrong.
You are so right, about paying the price for political neglect. But we will make up for it. My ideas are radical, though, and I never could quite fit in with popular thinking. I still don't, but to hell with it. I've got a lot to say and I'm going to say it. I'm even proud of myself for not being more offensive and holding my sharp tongue somewhat.
I am totally blown away with the blogosphere. It's for me, and I am finding myself rather captivated by what others have to say.
So onward we go...the Blog Hog herself!
COMMENT #109 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 3:49 pm PT...
Good - then it's settled! I've always been on the fringes in my views as well. Maybe that's why we haven't been stupified by the propaganda machine. We must stick together and try to put that gift to work!
COMMENT #110 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 3:56 pm PT...
Yes, I know about the drug testing and it is horrifying. But you know me... they don't scare me. I think they are on their fall now. But there will be others who try to control. The problem is, the human race has never been able to be dominated, and I don't see that changing. Parts are controlled for a while, but it always ends. It's logistically impossible.
Savanster.... I realize the complexity of every personal situation, but I think we can just try to do our best within these parameters. It's true I am single and free, and I DO LOVE MY CAR. Driving is one of my greatest pleasures. And we all are so dependent on them. But I am resisting the urge to go on my joy rides now and coming up with alternative forms of pleasure.
COMMENT #111 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 4:06 pm PT...
Unfortunately, if the word doesn't get out - we have no media investigating the WH - people won't be able to hear the truth. People have already, for the most part succumbed to the belief that medical doctors are next to God and most people are illiterate about medicines & their effects on the body.
If for some reason we can't unseat the bu$h family (Jeb to go in next) the whole thing can happen. Even if we do unseat them - will our elected guy actually change some of these laws put in place? Will the population be drugged a little at the time until they cannot make decisions?
You know - this sounds like an episode of the Twilight Zone. But - what's been happening since the mid 1990s already sounds to me like the Twilight Zone.
Remember "It Can't Happen Here" by Sinclair Lewis.
Or can it? Or IS it already?
COMMENT #112 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 4:40 pm PT...
Well, Kira... It's always happening. It's a dual universe and good and evil are always here and in conflict. Neither wins. You just get on the good side and that alone will protect you. The goodness needs the evil in order to exist and flourish. It's your personal relationship with life that counts. It's laws of nature. You do good, you will receive good. These evildoers will get what's coming to them, but that is life's job, not ours. Ours is to project the positive alternative, and live the best way we can, trying not to hurt others.
I can't express the full extent of my hatred of the medical profession. I hate it more than the neocons. I, of course, am into alternative healing. This is the wave of the future, and it is already happening. Money shortage alone dictates this. Integrated medicine is coming big time.
Rod Serling, the creator of the Twilight Zone was from my home town. Oh, I loved that show back in my TV days.
This administration will be gone. You should really check out Robert Reich, the ex labor secretary of the country. He is wonderful, and he is predicting a return to liberalism in a huge way. Very soon. I'll try to find some links.
This has been a wonderful afternoon of conversation. I have such little a small capacity for complaint. I just want to assess situations and move on to solutions, and that's why I like discussions like this. I am an optimist but I don't want others to think like me. That would be awful. And dull. Optimism and pessimism are equal in my book. But endless crybabying is counterproductive to me.
I know. That's what my mother told me. That I whined too much. She was right.
Gotta go for a while and get some work done. See you in a bit.
COMMENT #113 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 4:43 pm PT...
Delete that "little"...not needed.
COMMENT #114 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 5:00 pm PT...
I agree about the dual universe - always an equal amount of positive to balance the negative - at least that's what we've come to believe. Quantum Physics is probing into very interesting territory these days, and who knows what we'll learn (if we don't blow the world up beforehand.)
I don't agree with your generalizing that "if you do good you receive good." It doesn't always work that way. At least here on this plane of consciousness - on earth. I do believe we can change our perceptions to make our lives more comfortable in the face of adversity.
I am also very much into alternative medicine & healing and think we're in danger of losing some of our control over the natural remedies we use. I don't know just how serious this is, but I think we need to really study & watch this:
A WAKE UP CALL! Proposed Legislation to Weaken DSHEA, and Codex Alimentarius Looms
Thanks for mentioning Robert Reich - I'll google.
COMMENT #115 [Permalink]
said on 4/19/2005 @ 5:15 pm PT...
I've been trying to get outta here but you keep bringing up interesting things, Kira.
I am totally psyched about quantum physics. I would like to explore that more. I have some theories about this administration in regards to this.
They have been trying to thwart the natural remedy business for years now. They keep proposing legislation and it goes nowhere. Some regulation would be all right, though, so we are sure of what we are paying for. They can't stop it. It is a big wave and soon the money will be going there.
COMMENT #116 [Permalink]
said on 4/20/2005 @ 6:38 am PT...
Teresa #104 Well said.
#112 I can not agree that good and evil are equal because it supports defeatism or "what is the use it is all predetermined anyway".
That is why I choose one to be better than the other and attempt to extinguish the other.
Good is better than evil and evil should go away for good and that is what I work for.
COMMENT #117 [Permalink]
said on 4/20/2005 @ 3:03 pm PT...
I think all of us here want evil to go away, but it won't. So as I said, the best thing is to align with the forces of good, and fully understand the inevitability of bad things happening. We have to see that in order for good to triumph.
As much as we say we are good and want the best for others, I have noticed a preoccupation in general with the bad that goes on in life, here and elsewhere. While it is important to be aware, it is also important to focus on the positive alternative. That's what the mayor of my city is doing, who was just pegged as one of the top 5 mayors in the country. He drives a hybrid car, or a small motor bike, and just got rid of a $70 million deficit with no layoffs and major cutbacks in city programs. I know that he is concentrating on the good of our city rather than the bad of the federal government.
Rather than try and extinguish the bad, we can overcome it with perpetuation of the good. It's not a question of proving that one is good and one is bad. We already know that. I am just guessing that they are equal in power as of now in our evolution. It is a constant struggle, but there are pockets of good happening all the time. That's where I want to be.
COMMENT #118 [Permalink]
said on 4/21/2005 @ 10:12 pm PT...
Dredd, if the truth be known, I am a metaphysician and I do believe in the ultimate goodness of life. I think that all our difficulties are designed to help us evolve and learn the skills of living successfully. So in that sense, I think what appears to be evil really is not, in the end. We always benefit from the confrontation.
COMMENT #119 [Permalink]
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