Why does The Poor Man have no clue about how we can improve things in Iraq? Isn't it clear that we are the problem? The bulk of the bombings are directed against US troops and the Iraqis who support them, are they not? Well then why don't we just Get The F Out?

Maybe if they didn't have us to shoot at they might stop shooting. Maybe if their country weren't occupied by a hated foreign army, they might start to settle down. Why has this not occurred to The Poor Man? Has he been drinking the Kool-Aid too?

The mess we have made of Iraq will never heal, until and unless the cause of the mess is removed. Every day we stay there we make it worse! LOL at the arrogance which makes us think that we can solve the problem. We ARE the problem!

What are our other options? Really! What the H else can we do?

Maybe we should just hang around and accidentally drop bombs on 'possibly innocent' civilians? Or maybe we can 'un-shit the bed' by establishing El Salvador-style death squads? Oh yeah, that will probably work!

The problem with my idea, of course, is that the thugs who run our country will never allow it. Just a minor little detail. OMG America what have you done?

Please forgive my language, But "deeply regrets the loss of 'possibly'???????????? innocent lives" , my fuckin' ass! It's sickening!!

Going after Usama Bin Laden was justified.

Going into Iraq was not (WMDs, our ass!).

Those who have allowed this garbage administration to convince them this all comes under the same umbrella are morons.

We'll probably be hearing from at least one of those morons shortly, if past history here is repeated. Watch below:

I remember Vietnam. I marched in D.C. several times. By 1968, everyone knew we couldn't win, but no one could think of a good way to get out. Finally we declared victory and left. And you know what? Vietnam is fine now. (Except of course for all the buried land mines.) Don't underestimate the Iraqis. They had teeming cities two millenia before we had log cabins.

Allow me to add another bit from The Poor Man:
"...But the easiest thing you can do is influence the politicians who create the policies – and in some cases the military strategies - which are being carried out in Iraq, but to do this in a useful way you first have to make some contact with reality. Reality is that the situation in Iraq is horrible, the outlook for any lasting peace is grim, and that this has nothing to do with a nebulous, malignant, all-powerful “Left”, and everything to do with the people in power who make bad and stupid policies. You can pull your head out of your ass, stop dreaming up stupid conspiracy theories about how everyone around the world you don’t like is working together to destroy Freedom, and tell them that they need to do a better job. And if they won’t do a better job, the solution is not to get upset at people who aren’t waving their pom-poms or denouncing Saddam single-mindedly enough for you, it is to fire the fuck-ups so we can maybe have some chance at salvaging something from this fiasco.
…But the easiest thing you can do is influence the politicians who create the policies – and in some cases the military strategies - which are being carried out in Iraq, but to do this in a useful way you first have to make some contact with reality. Reality is that the situation in Iraq is horrible, the outlook for any lasting peace is grim, and that this has nothing to do with a nebulous, malignant, all-powerful “Left”, and everything to do with the people in power who make bad and stupid policies. You can pull your head out of your ass, stop dreaming up stupid conspiracy theories about how everyone around the world you don’t like is working together to destroy Freedom, and tell them that they need to do a better job. And if they won’t do a better job, the solution is not to get upset at people who aren’t waving their pom-poms or denouncing Saddam single-mindedly enough for you, it is to fire the fuck-ups so we can maybe have some chance at salvaging something from this fiasco.
And, before you ask: no, I have no clue about how we can improve things in Iraq. I don’t have a single idea for how we can un-shit the bed, and I don’t hold out much hope that this whole bed-shitting episode is ever going to be brought to a lemony-fresh conclusion. I do, however, know who shit the bed, and have some sense of how frequently he shits there. Let’s stop shitting for a start."
winter patriot~
Nonono! Stop yelling at ThePoorMan! lol..I don't agree with every word he says but, Christ on a bike! (oops, sorry Nee! jeez, YOU need to grow a wee bit of thicker skin!) PoorMan is on our side & we need to look past the differences among us, no? a la your own excellent piece, & recognize a brother when we see one! imho!

oh jeez, my bad. sorry for the duplication in my last post. But it won't hurt to read it twice.

The "possibly innocent lives" included 7 children.

They are possibly the most evil assholes this country has ever known.

Having said that...
Re the poor man's "the easiest thing to do is influence the politicians..."
Not so easy, considering that our vote is meaningless & our voice is a tiny squeak amid a cacophany of disinformation. How do we proceed from that reality to the big booming voice that we need?
I'll continue writing to them but that feels pathetically weak & futile.

GOD IN HEAVEN! Why am I still talking about trying to influence the same politicians whose spineless abandonment I just witnessed?! Hahahaha! As if!!!
Old habits die hard...I guess all of the kool-aid is not quite flushed out of my bloodstream yet.

Gotta outsmart 'em somehow. Considering the rather primitive fashion in which their frontal cortexes work, if in fact they do, that should not be all that hard.

If the animals could escape harm in a massive eathquake and tsunami, then maybe we can learn something from them about survival. We can be quick and clever, and avoid capture. Who's in charge here, anyway? Who says we have to march to our doom?
Man. the creeps! And all their boogeyman crap.

In fairy tales and mythology, the witch, old crone figure is associated with middle to old age women and great power. All the menopausal witches in our country could unite and scare the bejeezus out of them! The'd never return.

Recall worked for Arnold. Can we make a list of all the Senators who mean-mouthed Conyer's report without reading it, include Bush and his playmates, and organize a recall election? Again, nation-wide, just set up our own balllots, and voting stations, use PENCIL AND PAPER. I love radical action - it gets the bad guys all confused and they usually screw up big time.

In fact, I used to do a regular mailing for 250 people. It didn't take long. And anyone can count a thousand votes in a very short time.

Get the voter registration lists, names and addresses, and mail (or print in the local newspaper) a very simple ballot (always keep it simple):

Remove Bush Yes or No
as Pres.

Install Kerry Yes or No
as Pres.

I think it's Oregon that conducts their election by mail over a two week period. Our election could occur during the month of March or April for 30 days by mail.

Add up the votes - and then more than likely tell GWB to head back to the ranch, hat an' all.

Stan says "Vietnam is fine now"! What is "fine" about living under communism with zero freedoms?

Yes, Stan, you were one of those that helped the enemy kill Americans in Vietnam.

I suggest you and Teresa go and read the biographies of the former military officers of the North Vientamese and the Vietcong. They attribute their win over us to the war protestors at the same time disclosing that the protest leaders in America were communist rabble funded by money from East Germany!

Yes, Stan, you worked AGAINST America and for the Communists by protesting.

Peggy

Interesting that you bring up Oregon.

A single county in Oregon, Multnomah, gave Kerry 175,000 votes of the 70,000 Kerry won OREGON by!

Oops, this must mean .......yup, it means Oregon, except for virtually only Multnomah County, is a RED state!

Gee, just like the same problem in most every other "blue state"; in Oregon a single wacky county full of old hippies swung it to Kerry!

{ed. Note: Have removed this post since it's so far off the topic in every way imaginable, that I'm frankly sick and tired of ATTY JIMMO attempting to change the subject and hijack the discussion here for his own political benefit. Stick to the discussion, or more such off-topic posts will be deleted, AJ. Please stop forcing me to police you here like you're a kindergartner. Your behavior is atrocious. My patience and tolerance for you wearing very thin. Knock it off. Thank you.}

There is a way to get out of Iraq.

If it's true that the reason they decided not to capture Osama bin Laden is that there would be no excuse to go into Iraq,

Then, you capture Osama bin Laden...and say that it's time to leave Iraq.

I'm not justifying any of it, I'm just the messenger...

At a time when about 130-150,000 troups are involved in Iraq, about 3-5%, the army admits, are deserting to Canada.

Following the usual formula that they at best tell half the truth, it could be 6-10%.

So those most in the know, the soldiers, are telling a story. This supports the poor man's position.

This administration loves to play with terminology to make their case. Take that word "insurgent". Here's the Webster definition:

Main Entry: 1in·sur·gent
Pronunciation: -j&nt
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin insurgent-, insurgens, present participle of insurgere to rise up, from in- + surgere to rise --- more at SURGE
1 : a person who revolts against civil authority or an established government; especially : a rebel not recognized as a belligerent
2 : one who acts contrary to the policies and decisions of one's own political party

Sounds somewhat appropriate when applied to those guys in Iraq killing US/Coalition soldiers. However, the word is ALMOST accurate but not quite. Great buzzword.

Here's the true definition of those folks in Iraq whom we can't seem to vanquish:

Main Entry: re·sis·tance
Pronunciation: ri-'zis-t&n(t)s
Function: noun
1 a : an act or instance of resisting : OPPOSITION b : a means of resisting
2 : the ability to resist; especially : the inherent capacity of a living being to resist untoward circumstances (as disease, malnutrition, or toxic agents)
3 : an opposing or retarding force
4 a : the opposition offered by a body or substance to the passage through it of a steady electric current b : a source of resistance
5 often capitalized : an underground organization of a conquered or nearly conquered country engaging in sabotage and secret operations against occupation forces and collaborators

In response and hellos,

First drugs...then Iraq!

I believe most medical research and development is the product of government funded grants, which drug companies then take advantage of and license at great mark-up profits. One way to get our drug prices down is to stop drug companies from spending billions on shoving all their intoxicants down our throats through slick 24/7 marketing campaigns.

They can save money too by stop bribing public officials. Another is to return America to a healthy more natural and holistic lifestyle and treatment regimen. And finally, they can stop making drugs that kill and harm so many people that they get buried in litigation. But then again, that's what Bush TORT REFORM is for, protect the drug manufacturers and not the victims!

The entire medical industry is out of whack as Americans get overdosed with medications to ease all the problems our consumer society, medical profession, and government create for us...like Iraqi Wars! Just like the oil and gas companies, they've learned how to profit from the addictions of an entire country by turning doctors into drug dealers and medical care into marketing! And we're fighting a War on Drugs...what a joke!

Also, America and France exploited Vietnam for their own right-wing business eco-colonial interests. Ho Chi Minh turned to Communism as the nationalist alternative to corrupt colonial rule and puppet governments installed by France and the United States. The foundation for the failure of Vietnam, Jim, was created by our own government many years and long before any protestor took to any street.

What is disturbing are the growing parallels between Vietnam and Iraq. I just listened to two policy experts on the Sunday morning blowhard shows and both only mentioned how Iraq needed more troops, there needed to be strategic reanalysis, and how we needed to do this and that with the Sunni's Shia's, and Kurd's in order to stop the insurgency! We keep trying to run the show!

The Washington wonks have the same mental paralysis as Vietnam...the same blinders! That is very disturbing. Their debating military drafts and political strategies. Not a word about how 80% of Iraqi's want the YANKEES to go home! Get out! LEAVE!

They keep calling it a Sunni resistance. A Jihad! Using the religious divisions we just spoke of yesterday to divide Iraq for America's long term plans to exploit Iraq and the Middle East for its oil and gas. No bureau speak about what the Iraqi people really want or what the resistance really is...a national liberation movement to conquer an illegal occupation following an illegal war.

A resistance, just like in Vietnam, which has an internationally recognized right to wage war and rebellion against foreign occupation, regardless of the publicity ruse created when they say a South Vietnamese or an Allawi Iraqi puppet government invited us to do this, or bomb that city, or destroy a Fallujah. Just another fraud by a White House specializing in fraud!

Our corrupt right-wing oil and gas government just doesn't get it! The Bush pride and prejudice, as well as Bush family energy interests along with Christian fanatics, just don't want to leave. And their arrogance, personal, religious, and corporate, will only get more soldiers and Iraqi's killed and maimed.

As I reported the other day, an Iraqi Intelligence officer declared that the resistance had grown to over 200,000! He also charged the United States Military was under reporting this in order to avoid the obvious political and propaganda ramifications back home. I don't know if he still has a job after speaking truth to power?

And then there's all the dirty little secrets of Iraq! The assasination squads we have hired or deployed, either as Special Forces, CIA, or private military contractors killing GOD knows who? The fact that we're fighting two wars! The war we won against Saddam Hussein to seize the country, and the second war, the one we're now losing to a national resistance. Not because of protestors Jim, but because all our technology, CIA, Special Forces, and United States Military cannot conquer a bunch of rag tag militias that are growing in size and numbers to organize into an anti-occupation army! Like in Vietnam and Algeria, their nationalist fervor will never be defeated and unending war and resistance will continue until we leave!

One policy wonk even declared Iraq needs 500,000 more US troops! Which you don't get without a military draft! This war was never really legitimate and never really supported by the American people, more than half of which now believe it was a mistake. What will it take for Americans to understand that it was more than a mistake, it was and is a tragedy, and more specifically, a crime!

The attack on Fallujah was a WAR CRIME in and of itself. They are still fighting there as the military plans to make Fallujah one large prison camp, ramming democracy down their throats. Except of course for the more than 10,000 people they killed since their post-election invasion. Please read the final Nuremburg War Crimes Report to find out why Fallujah is an ongoing WAR CRIME! Yet our fearless Chickenhawk remains in the White House instead of behind bars with Dick Cheney, Condi Rice, Donald Rumsfeld, and their assorted accomplices.

Yes Jim, we are at war. A war, of which, the only preparation for was not to protect the Iraqi people, but to defend and distribute their oil and gas fields to favored companies and allies, like Tony "British Petroleum" Blair! We have murdered and continue to murder well over 100,000 people in Iraq, through an unjustified war that is the equivalent of an unjustified homicide in America!

And while George Bush allowed many a prisoner in Texas to be executed for unjustified homicides, he arrogantly takes the lives of tens of thousands without remorse or reflection. But then again they're Muslims, aren't they Mr. Bush...they're not going to Heaven anyway, right George? No sweat off his smirking smile. I'm sure he sleeps just fine!

Our remaining in Iraq and his continuation in office, will only continue to symbolize an injustice that will inflame the resistance both in Iraq and America!
Let's get out of Iraq and George out of the White House! That's my simple solution, if there really is one anymore?

I like that blogslut! The other Pentagon propaganda words I like, or really frown upon, is "anti-Iraqi forces"! Basically, those Iraqi's fighting an illegal occupation termed by Americans as anti-Iraqi! The arrogance never ceases to amaze me!

Joan (#5): I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't really yelling at The Poor Man. I was yelling at the situation in general. But please realize that the position "We have to stay in Iraq until we stabilize the place" is a pro-war position. It sometimes seems to me that aside from myself, the only people who realize this are Greg Palast and Freebird. I was hoping that all the anti-war types would start to see it, and it bothers me that they don't. That's why I was yelling.

Bob (#3): I think you've been deceived about who Usama bin Laden is and whether we actually went after him or not. He's a patsy. A puppet. He plays the role of 'the bad guy'. But he and his family are intimately connected with the Bushes. Furthermore, we never really went after him. If we wanted him dead, he would have been dead a long time ago.

What we really went after was Afghanistan. And it wasn't because of 9/11; it was because the Taliban were opposing the plans to construct a gas pipeline that UNOCAL wanted to build through their country, to bring gas to a generating plant which ENRON had built in India. Bush and his buddies can tolerate any kind of depravity as long as it doesn't impact on their wealthy friends. And ENRON, though supposedly discredited, continues to call a lot of the shots.

The attack on Afghanistan was planned and prepared long before 9/11. USA had been moving forces into the area for months, under cover of 'war games'. But it wasn't a game. It was a strategic buildup.

The attacks of 9/11 were simply a pretext. The entire 'War on Terror' is a sham, not just the Iraq part. Please read this article for starters. Then have a look at this site. We've been duped, friends. Not just Bob but most of us. We drank a lot of Kool-Aid on 9/11 and the effects are still haunting us. But we are finally starting to wake up.

Hey Brad (re #16): Thanks. Please keep up the good work!

Apologist Jimmo said:
"I suggest you and Teresa go and read the biographies of the former military officers of the North Vientamese and the Vietcong. They attribute their win over us to the war protestors at the same time disclosing that the protest leaders in America were communist rabble funded by money from East Germany!"

Thanks for that info, AJ! Can you cite for us any of those former military officers who you have read that have said that? And let us know where we can read the books and writings that you have read?

Links to Rush247.com don't count, by the way.

Thanks in advance!

Stan (#4) You did well. Please disregard the troll.

The Vietnamese nationalists had been fighting foreign occupation for a thousand years and they were not going to stop --- no matter what --- until all the foreign armies were gone. They were going to kick our asses regardless of whether Americans protested against their own government or not.

I've been preparing an article for my blog about the anti-war movement of the 60's and the notion that it was funded by communists. It's not finished yet but I'll give you a heads-up when I get it posted. For now I don't have time to say much except: don't believe the lies. You and your friends did well.

From My Earlier Post: "Those who have allowed this garbage administration to convince them this all comes under the same umbrella (Usama and Iraq) are morons.
We'll probably be hearing from at least one of those morons shortly, if past history here is repeated. "...................

See! What'd I tell ya? One post was so moronic that it had to be deleted for lack of relevance, or anything else worthwhile.

The Vietnam anti war protestors should pray to God everynight that he relieve them of the guilt they carry for helping the enemy murder American soldiers during the Vietnam war.

I attended college from 1971 to 1775. I saw Vietnam Veterans being spit on, urine thrwon at them, protestors screaming baby killer at them, and harassing them to the point that they would finally become alchoholics or drug addicts and drop out of college.

It was the most disgusting display towards our Soldiers we have ever known.

If they were REAL human beings, EVERY single one of these brats that treated our soldiers that way would come forward and apologize to them today.

That is a sad fact but the same type of people are still around. You can find a lot of them at the Democratic Underground web site. They are the lowest level of American. The bona fide America hater.

As far as "desertions" from the Armed Forces: During WW2 we suffered over 40,000 desertions. Britain had twice as many. In EVERY conflict you will find those that value their own skin more than freedom and defending the world from tyranny.

Winter Patriot wrote "The Vietnamese nationalists had been fighting foreign occupation for a thousand years and they were not going to stop --- no matter what --- until all the foreign armies were gone."

Hey winter, you better go read up on the history of Vietnam. In fact, try visiting Vietnam now and see how they live under Communism.

As long as your at it: go ask the Hmong, Laotians, and Vietnamese in America now who they voted for in the last election: I can guarantee you they did NOT vote for KERRY the war protestor.

By the say, just how many Vietnamese were murdered after we abandoned them in 1975? Kerry testified to congress maybe three thousand would be in danger of being murdered: He was wrong by a million or so.

In 1979, Bush’s first business, Arbusto Energy, obtained financing from James Bath, a Houstonian and close family friend. One of many investors, Bath gave Bush $50,000 for a 5 percent stake in Arbusto. At the time, Bath was the sole U.S. business representative for Salem bin Laden, head of the wealthy Saudi Arabian family and a brother (one of 17) to Osama bin Laden. The Arbusto money came directly from Salem bin Laden.

George W. Bush is still obliged to the bin laden family who were his angel investors. America is the most powerful nation on the planet and Osama bin Laden is still trolling freely in Peshawar with his goats. Americans are busy with Iraq. So there is no questions raised about why the President who promised in the State of Union address that "Osama can run but he cannot hide...." is not held accountable?

Media has failed to hold Bush accountable for giving a "free pass" to Osama. They are busy with Iraq. Is this what Bush wanted?

We the voters of United Sates of America:

1) Have rehired Bush for 9/11 failures as he never bothered to read the Intelligence reports prior to 9/11!

2) Re-elected him for his failure to catch Osama bin Laden DEAD or ALIVE!!

3) Rehired him for failure to win peace in Iraq

4) Bush claimed his "mandate" from the people for his POLITICAL FAILURE where over 1,352 soldiers have been killed and another 12,000 have been injured or diabled and cannot return to normal life. 10% of soldiers deployed has been removed...either dead or permanently diabled. All due to Bush never did a post war planning.

Are there 60 million dumb Americans?? With all due respects to your site Brad, Atty. Jim belongs to this club. Ignorance is strength for Bush goons. Still today they continue to ride on that strength.

What are your thought folks?

Hi folks -

A little bit off-topic, but important: William Rivers Pitt's eulogy for du's "Khephra" (Scott).
http://truthout.org/fyi/

This is a reminder that sites like this are vitally important.

Again, thank you, Brad

Cool Dude: Atty J is a troll at this site. And thanks for the posting. Stay in touch.

Desmond Tutu, in his essay, "Why is There War," explains (in addition to the problems of it in the first place), that the UN has established a set of conditions, all of which must be met and fulfilled in order to justify war:

1) It MUST be approved by the UN;
2) ALL possible peaceful possibilities for problem solving must be exhausted;
3) There must be reasonable expectation for success;
4) The force used must be reasonable.

Did Bush meet all of these conditions? No. Therefore this war is unjust.

I don't think we HAVE to draw parallels between past wars and this war. Though a very interesting sidebar perhaps.

THIS war is unjust. We must say so and leave.

I've seen this President disregard many rules (including simple debate rules)...because "I'm the President [dammit]". Eh, slight case of megalomania?

Even OUR mandate was stolen. We're here to take it back!

Quite an interesting day here on the blog.

It has been suggested that I should read some history. That's like asking a fish to swim. Reading history is what I do.

This may be way off topic but I can't help mentioning it: Lately I've been reading reading John M. Newman's "JFK and Vietnam: Deception, Intrigue and the Struggle for Power". It's a heavily sourced, finely detailed account of how and why the USA sent combat troops to Vietnam in the early 60's. Newman quotes extensively from NASMs (National Security Action Memos) and SNIEs (Special National Intelligence Estimates) of the day. Not for the casual reader, nor for the faint of heart. Not for the trolls either. LOL.

winter patriot~
Apologies, then. And I say again, your "Triumph of Bullshit" is bloody freaking brilliant & I salute you. I, for one, heartily agree the U.S. should get the HELL out of Iraq.
Peggy~
Re "install Kerry..yes or no?" I'd say Hell, NO. For conceding before all votes were counted? Hell, NO. For keeping the unholy pact of silence regarding the highjacking of our democracy, along with his spineless Senate colleagues? Hell, NO.
His evident belief that he is a front-runner for '08 is mind-boggling.
Cool Dude~
60 million dumb? I believe the actual number is considerably less, if you take into account the reality of how this election was "won". We the voters did NOT rehire or re-elect the bushbaby, who was in any event not even elected the first time, but SEElected by our supreme court, as we all know. And, damn, apologies to you too if you spoke tongue-in-cheek & I was too dim to see it, haha! Certainly agree with the rest of your points, though. Mandate, my ass! Bloody hell.
Who would have believed our country would be run in our lifetime by the Sopranos.
A snippet of song to lull the troll:
"Oh, your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore...
We're already over-crowded from your dirty little war...
See, Jesus don't like killin', no matter what the reason for..."
My prayers are with all our soldiers, all our boys & girls, the ones who ran for sancuary too.

From what I understand, The oil cartel, masterminded 911, and the wars, USA and Osama included. Some of our most educated here might be able to tell us who the players are. 911 was a well coordinated plot, and took a web of participants. There is no way on god's green earth that this could have occurred without US involvement. Enemy planes DO NOT fly around like some birds enjoying the afternoon sun, without being detected.
I'm sure Osama is playing this ridiculous hide and seek game with our current mafioso. Occasionally, though, I think he speaks up and slams Bush for the fun of it.
I thought that the wars were about control of the oil under the Caspian Sea, and the pipelines now being built. That's why Russia and the other provinces are so important.
Unfortunately, the new leader in the Ukraine is probably furthering their cause.
Maybe we can hope for dissent among the the greedy bastards to contribute to their failure.
The reality of the end of the Age of Oil is upon us. The smart ones are preparing. There is no way of escaping the need for new energy sources.
I hope these people's blundering sets them back to the point of no return.
In reality, I think power is distributed evenly among all people of the world. We just have to recognize our own, and use it.

I meant Osama in partnership with the mafioso.

Yo! Attorney Jim. Good to see that you're back making semi-logical arguments and not Limbaugh lies. I'm glad you mentioned the Laotians, because I am Laotian. Born in Laos, arrived in America when I was two years old. I know nothing about Laos other than what my parents and relatives have told me and they despise the communists. The communists garnered support with 'good intentions'. Once the communists gained power, they used their 'good intentions' to benefit themselves. Sound familiar? That's why people like us here deeply dislike the Bush administration. Who have their good intentions benefitted? The Iraqis? The soldiers? Puhhhhlease! Too much power in the hands of one political entity is the danger, not various thoughts and opinions.
My father had Rambo like fantasies about gunning down the communist soldiers (and not the civilians of Laos) years ago, but people get on with their lives. Many Laotians here wish for nothing more than for their relatives back home well despite the communist government they still hate.
And if you really wanted to stop the corrupt governments and organized criminals of the world, then support policies that fight the world banks that launder money for these organizations. Of course asking the Neocons to take a stand on principle over money might be too much to ask.
P.S. Saying that Vietnamese and Laotians vote solely on the basis of the Vietnam war and not general concern for the well being of all citizens and society is racist. Cut it out.

And I am not sure of the details, but I thought that the Viet Nam War was a CIA planned affair where battles were purposely lost for some long term strategy. These wars and such, as you know, have, been a whole connected plan of economic control. The failures seem to be increasing.

Joan (#34): Thanks so much for your many kind words. Lay it on THIN, will you, sweetie?

Horkus (#37): Thank you for your excellent comment.

Cool Dude (#29): Nice to see you here. It takes a while to figure out who is serious and who is not, but it looks like you are well on your way.

Teresa (#38): There is a lot more to the history of the Vietnam war than the notion that the CIA planned it. And as far as I can tell, they weren't losing battles on purpose. It was stupidity that did them in. I'll have more to say about this later, maybe. But never underestimate the power of human stupidity. It's one of the basic forces driving the universe!

Good one horkus. Welcome all Laotian friends and others to the great American melting pot! We certainly are diverse, aren't we!

Just a shame there are so many closed minds, thoughts, and feelings about the diversity of our world. Especially as Republican conservatives and their Christian Dominionists circle their wagons for the great non-anglo non-evangelical invasion! And what better protection for them than that phony Blue Blood cowboy from Texas. I can just see him at the CRAWFORD "RANCH" jumping around and riding his little stick pony, yelling, "YEEHAW! GETTY UP!". I've actually worked on farms, but I bet his boots have never seen cow manure! BUT PRETENDING TO BE A RANCHER SURE MAKES FOR A GREAT AMERICAN PHOTO OP!

Don't worry about Jimmo! He doesn't like communists in Vietnam or Cuba, but you sure don't hear him crowing about RED CHINA! You know, that Republican cash cow that's becoming our largest creditor for Wars and Walmarts. You won't hear attorney jimbo decrying their labor and prison camps, or crying over their lack of freedoms!

No sireeeeee! When you've got some good "commies" helping with your economy and making vote stealing software, these "slaves" of fashion are friends of George DUMBYA & Company! That's why he never responded to NEE about how all the Chinese "commie" traitors are let off the hook by Republicans!

Republicans and conservatives, and hypocrisy too!

winter patriot~
lol...ok, I shall desist with the gushing praise.

Joan - I'd be willing to bet that he secretly loves it
;-) And if it's deserved, why not?

Brad~
I feel I should apologize to you for my recent
f-laden post, which you probably deleted. It was a bit over the top! so, apologies. I was seized by a momentary madness.

Peg~ haha, that thought crossed my mind. And, yeah, credit where credit is due & all.

LOL @ Freebird (#40) :

"PRETENDING TO BE A RANCHER SURE MAKES FOR A GREAT AMERICAN PHOTO OP! "

Pretending to be a successful commander-in-chief makes a good photo-op, too!

All through the campaign I kept hearing: "the American people don't want to change Presidents during a war."

But I never heard anyone say: "But what if the war was started by the President --- in order to get himself re-elected?"

Now why did I hear the one comment over and over but not the other? Must be the liberal media again, right?

Pretending to be a man sure makes for a great Time magazine spread.

I couldn't read all the comments, maybe someobody has already posted this. According to Newseek, this is how we may attempt to improve the situation in Iraq. However, since the last lame excuse used to justify this tragedy become total blunder was to replace an evil regime that employed torture and paramilitary death squads, "improvement" would not be the word I'd use.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com...d/6802629/site/newsweek/

"The Pentagon may put Special-Forces-led assassination or kidnapping teams in Iraq.

What to do about the deepening quagmire of Iraq? The Pentagon's latest approach is being called "the Salvador option"-and the fact that it is being discussed at all is a measure of just how worried Donald Rumsfeld really is. "What everyone agrees is that we can't just go on as we are," one senior military officer told Newsweek. "We have to find a way to take the offensive against the insurgents. Right now, we are playing defense. And we are losing." Last November's operation in Fallujah, most analysts agree, succeeded less in breaking "the back" of the insurgency-as Marine Gen. John Sattler optimistically declared at the time-than in spreading it out.

Now, Newsweek has learned, the Pentagon is intensively debating an option that dates back to a still-secret strategy in the Reagan administration's battle against the leftist guerrilla insurgency in El Salvador in the early 1980s. Then, faced with a losing war against Salvadoran rebels, the U.S. government funded or supported "nationalist" forces that allegedly included so-called death squads directed to hunt down and kill rebel leaders and sympathizers. Eventually the insurgency was quelled, and many U.S. conservatives consider the policy to have been a success-despite the deaths of innocent civilians and the subsequent Iran-Contra arms-for-hostages scandal. (Among the current administration officials who dealt with Central America back then is John Negroponte, who is today the U.S. ambassador to Iraq. Under Reagan, he was ambassador to Honduras.)

Following that model, one Pentagon proposal would send Special Forces teams to advise, support and possibly train Iraqi squads, most likely hand-picked Kurdish Peshmerga fighters and Shiite militiamen, to target Sunni insurgents and their sympathizers, even across the border into Syria, according to military insiders familiar with the discussions. It remains unclear, however, whether this would be a policy of assassination or so-called "snatch" operations, in which the targets are sent to secret facilities for interrogation. The current thinking is that while U.S. Special Forces would lead operations in, say, Syria, activities inside Iraq itself would be carried out by Iraqi paramilitaries, officials tell Newsweek.

Also being debated is which agency within the U.S. government-the Defense department or CIA-would take responsibility for such an operation. Rumsfeld's Pentagon has aggressively sought to build up its own intelligence-gathering and clandestine capability with an operation run by Defense Undersecretary Stephen Cambone. But since the Abu Ghraib interrogations scandal, some military officials are ultra-wary of any operations that could run afoul of the ethics codified in the Uniform Code of Military Justice. That, they argue, is the reason why such covert operations have always been run by the CIA and authorized by a special presidential finding. (In "covert" activity, U.S. personnel operate under cover and the U.S. government will not confirm that it instigated or ordered them into action if they are captured or killed.)"

Hi, LGM - I know right now what will happen. All the money and planning will be used by those supposed hired hands against U.S. forces. The Arabs very, very smart - and America is very, very hated - and sadly the Bushites very, very stupid.

In the end a religious government will be elected by the Iraqi people, exactly, what Bushites do not want, and America will be run out of Iraq. The end to the nightmare cannot happen soon enough for me.

Maybe if we handed over Bush himself to the insurgents for punishment, they would agree to a truce with America. It would be an excellent deal in my opinion.

hey, atty jim --- you recommended reading "the biographies of the former military officers of the North Vientamese and the Vietcong", but you never came back to tell us where we can find 'em!

although you've posted several times since, you didn't answer Brad's request (#24) for that source.

you recommend that others read these biographies, so i was wondering which one you read that had that information in it. i'd like to see for myself, because it sure sounds like propaganda to me.

Good post LGM!

My underestanding is that this is already being done without acknowledgment. I can't imagine this war being waged without CIA, Special Ops, and private contractors already doing the dirty work. Also, this action would be considered a Nuremburg War Crimes violation, which of course, are only prosecuted against losing sides. So much for international law!

re: Stan (#4) and many other comments concering the anti-war movement during the Vietnam era:

I promised you a new item on my blog and heads-up when it was ready.

It's ready. Here's the link: A Perfect Double-Cross.

Great blog Winter Patriot! Thanks for telling our story.

I contend that all great, and not as great unnatural tragedies are, and have been committed by government or the powers within. Common men nor the crazed man simply do not have the resources at hand to plan, execute, and coverup successfully.

I also have this hideous conspiracy theory eating at me since I was a youngster. One begun years before I was born but... I'm diminished to a subjugate so what could I possibly understand? Right Dumbya?

Winter Patriot #51 - my first visit to your site - Many thanks.

The Ukraine has just announced its new idea on helping solve the Iraq problem.

Maybe some good news here ... the good news may be that we won't invade Iran after all ... at least until this contract is over.

Hmmm...The Bushites are friendly with the Saudi princes, but Saudi terrorists fly planes into the WTC and kill civilians. Halliburton is friendly with the Iranian government, but the Bushites threaten to invade Iran. America gives WMD to Iraq, then sends in the military to bomb the country. I see, rich people are friendly and don't fight or die in wars, but poor people fight in the wars and die. Is this a worldwide plot to get rid of poor people, where too many of them are a threat to the rich?

FYI-

I agree with post#17 Miss Persistent..... the only way out of Iraq is give Bush (US) a major success ... such as capture of Osama bin Laden (a thousand or so miles away in a totally different country). Thats how we arrived, it would allow the US to save face and exit properly Iraq.

However, US needs some control and control of "oil" .... the only way to achive that goal is with money(support), weapons, food and CIA Special Forces led Teams for covert actions. No choices here people ... you want the troops out ... the US can let NATO or UN Troops in ... but US needs some control ... no other options. If we totally step out of Iraq China, Russa and/or Korea will step in ... then the next battle will be over "oil" with "much higher stakes".

"War in the end is always about betrayal. Betrayal of the young by the old, of soldiers by politicans and idealists by cynics."

Think about it..........

G

I

The Bushites wanted to make Iraq into "Little America in the Middle East", controlling Iraq oil and expanding American business interests in the region. The Iraqis and the Arabs are not fools and it will never happen. The Bushites will have to wipe out the entire Arab population in Iraq, and if they try, the rest of the world will step in and squash America. The Iraq war will stop when the Bushites are stopped. They are criminals and America will be forced to pay reparation for decades to come for their deeds.

Winter Patriot/Peggy,

Good blog...comments! What Winter Patriot discussed is still happening! They are still infiltrating anti-war and left-wing groups in America to either set them up for a fall or discredit them, either by doing so against individual leaders or members, or against the group as a whole!

Welcome to Republican Communism!

What Stan mentioned about being concerned that Winter Patriot and myself are openly discussing our views and that we are all being monitored is almost certainly true. In fact, the government admits it under the guise of ant-terrorism "PATRIOT ACT" efforts.

They are creating files and databanks of information, not through the government, but by going around the law and using private contractors for survelliance and intelligence, just like the military is using private contractors to kill and destroy. What they can't get through Congress, they're getting through private right-wing funded groups or private government front operations.

And its not just Americans! These groups are creating data banks of every person on the planet! What are they doing with that information? Well, some of it leaked out last year that voters in Mexico and Venezuela were having their personal information databanked in order that the United States could directly influence voters and help influence foreign elections! Remember the Orange Revolution in Ukraine? What computer base are their citizens being monitored by? How are they being targeted, influenced, intimidated to vote or think a certain way? What propaganda are they receiving?

And what else can these data banks do? Look how Americans are increasingly being forced to apply for jobs and other services online! So we have a credit rating system! How about a PATRIOT rating system for getting a job, getting an education, getting a loan? A massive right-wing data bank that will tell prospective employers, school recruiters, and others what political party you belong to, what church you attend, how often you vote, where your children go to school? What left-wing subversive or anti-American activities you or your family are involved in, anti-war protests, anti-CRAMPS online discussions or websites you may be visiting?

Our government is not worried about terrorism from abroad...they're worried about the CRAMPS effort being discovered and exposed in conjunction with a takeover of our country by various right-wing factions, including Christian Dominionists merging with a Military Industrial Complex. A multinational corporate natural resource and finance agenda that secretly plots wars, acts of convenient terrorism, and political coups!

That's right all you suit and coat right-wing f...s, I have your number...don't I? Hello? LOL

And one more thing to rile their sweaty jocks! Let's look at a different angle for a moment of the 2004 election!

Remember how no one along any street where the President was traveling could anyone wear or be seen carrying anything construed as anti-Bush? Remember how no one at any Bush rally could say or in fact wear anything that was construed as anti-Bush? Remember how all Bush appearnces were carefully orchestrated to have only ticket holding pro-Bush supporters bussed in for each event?

The US Secret Service and FBI dutifully enforced these efforts by arresting people doing so or setting up what they called "Free Speech" zones for protestors, far from the President and, of course, the media! All under the guise of security for the President!

One problem, if anyone wanted to actually harm the President, they wouldn't be carrying an anti-Bush sign! They'd simply show up with pro-Bush paraphanalia and hoop and holler for the President!

The effort was not security! It was propaganda! And it was done in a way that violated freedom of speech and expression under the Constitution! Making sure it appeared for the nightly news and media photographers that George W. Bush looked as though he had unquestioning loyalty and no opposition from Americans anywhere. Important no heckle soundbites were protected, while backdrop photo shots showed a sea of loving Bush supporters virtually everywhere!

Compare that to Republicans, probably paid, who showed up at almost every Kerry or Edwards stop or event to heckle and disrupt speeches and appearances. Folks! This is right out of Richard Nixon's old dirty tricks campaigns by mentors of Karl Rove! CREEPS, the Committee to Relect The President (Nixon) ran the same interference up against George McGovern in 1972.

The same year Karl Rove and George Bush were working on different Republican political campaigns that had their own dirty trick agendas. In fact, it was the first year Republicans began serious race baiting efforts to start drawing Southern whites away from the Democratic Party. It took years of planning, but it worked, as the racist Christian right went Republican in the South!

The Republicans and their Christian Dominionists are slick...and sleazy! Remember...GOD is on their side! And any violation of law, any violation of the Constitution, any violation of human rights in Iraq or anywhere else, and any effort to corrupt an election is just fine by them! Why? Because it is in the service of GOD! Their GOD, whether that be some supernatural figure or the GOD of money!

We cannot allow their corruption to stand! We cannot allow their takeover of America to be tolerated! We must organize, we must network, and we must stop their best laid plans! Otherwise, I fear that not only our rights, but rights of humans and our natural world everywhere will be at risk without them ever knowing it or being able to prevent it!

Don't mean to make you all pee your pants! LOL But let's awake and get real to deal with what we're facing! VIVA LA REVOLUCION!

Freebird...and this bird you cannot chain...

Problem is, The CRAMPS and CREEPS know they lost the election, and all those years of effort haven't REALLY worked. It's a house of cards. The have not successfully swayed popular opinion. And they know when all those who oppose them get going, the won't have a chance. The way its always gone. The sooner we get going, the better.

Yes. Viva la V Revolution!!

Dredd,

Haliburton offshore companies also dealt with Saddam and that didn't stop our invasion. Halliburton wins both ways...by invasion and by oil contracts!

Peggy,

As to whether the rich are trying to kill all the poor people? Considering we have left over 4 million pounds of radioactive dust in Iraq by using depleted uranium weapons...which harm and kill for years...one can only wonder at the full scope of their motivations?

Make Iraq a sick and dependent nation in order to exploit their oil and gas? Kill and poison Muslims from a Christian religious perspective? Test the long term impacts of the use of these and other new weapons...the military giunea pig agenda?

There's a whole lotta shakin' goin' on! What they are really up to is a good question?

Dear Freebird, I'm with Teresa on this, but that's not to say that some, or even many people, who present a more APPARENT threat than I, may be unfairly arrested or targeted in other ways.

But, the Bushites have under-estimated the Arabs, and they have under-estimated the American people. And there is always the hand of God in the universe - she's always got surprises up her sleeve - right Teresa?

Finally, we too are propagandists for our cause, and if the snoopers keep listening, many will change their stripes. The Bushites will likely be brought down by insiders who have had enough of the rot. And after all, a $1 billion reward for turning in treacherous, murderous scoundrels can be mighty tempting.

The mighty hand of God can be quite surprising, I dare say.

WP writes:

"The attack on Afghanistan was planned and prepared long before 9/11. USA had been moving forces into the area for months, under cover of 'war games'. But it wasn't a game. It was a strategic buildup. "

I have heard it was the other way around. Let me repeat, I don't claim to know but lean toward the consensus of opinion that is laid out in Rumsfeld's War, by men, some who lost their jobs because they felt this was all madness, and some could say they have an axe to grind. In fact, there was little strategic build up necessary for Afghanistan. They used an old CIA plan employing special forces and other covert assets, supported by air assets and some naval assets so they could go in on the cheap. The oil reseves in Iraq were always the main goal.

"The attacks of 9/11 were simply a pretext. The entire 'War on Terror' is a sham, not just the Iraq part. Please read this article for starters. Then have a look at this site. We've been duped, friends. Not just Bob but most of us. We drank a lot of Kool-Aid on 9/11 and the effects are still haunting us." But we are finally starting to wake up."

I can't argue with you here. I agree. We may differ on whether there was a reason to go into Afghanistan in the first place. I am certainly in agreement with you that our reasons for doing it were not the ones that were sold to the American people and the world at large.