Thanks Brad, You are a patriot in the best sense of the word.Blessings to you.

In my opinion, and several others, the Lemme-death thread, dealing with the investigation (or lack thereof), which broke the record for number of posts, has raised sufficient flags such that a reasonable person can conclude that the official determination finding it to have been suicide was a cover up or at the very, very least a botched affair by VPD.

That being said I have urged everyone to move on up the chain.

If everyone does as good at moving up the chain as was done in the Lemme-death thread, expect to hear some gasps out there in media land.

Several players in the old thread also agreed that we need to move on up ... without abandoning anything we have looked into there so far.

But lets use the Lemme-death thread for Lemme-specific stuff and this thread for ladder climbing up the chain.

If possible.

In the Lemme-death thread, Snoopy # 702 (link here), did a start up list of the ladder we can use for our analysis.

Lets tend to move from bottom up. The reason is that Clift was negatively protrayed in the Lemme-death thread for suspicious activity, and here at the get-go in this thread he is involved in suspicious activity.

Lets follow it, detailing what he did, who he knows, why, when, how he did it. That will lead up the chain of command ... following the money and power.

I have enhanced the ladder he started, to include the following ladder. It starts at the top and works its way down to Clift:

George Bush - President USA

Jeb Bush - Governor of Florida

Feeney - Running mate of J. Bush, and Florida/US Legislator

Earl K. Durden - Florida Transportation Commission

Jose Abreu - Secretary of Transportation (FDOT)

Cecil T. Bragg, Jr. - Inspector General (FDOT)

Robert Clift - Director of Investigations (FDOT)

At the bottom of this ladder is the one who personally had authority to and did order an investigation AGAINST Cliff Curtis and FDOT Inspector Georgalis.

What gave him the authority to do this, in terms of evidence, was an affidavit of the Yangs (YEI) accusing Georgalis of bribery.

The investigation Clift initiated was a retaliation. I think it originated outside of the FDOT.

Who did Yang call to initiate the retaliation, and who counselled them?

The type of retalliation and underlying testimony is Rovian is it not?

My number one suspicion is that Yang called Feeney.

I'm glad that you're pursuing this case. I heard a radio interview, some time ago, with Clint Curtis, and he told of the Lemme story, and I've felt frustrated all along about this being "swept under".

I'm more-than-curious about what his family might have to say about the weird circumstances of this "suicide": Had he said, or done, anything that would give a clue to anyone close to him, that he might NOT have been suicidal? Had he said anything to anyone close to him about his investigation? Questions like that should be answered, if at all possible.

There are three other "suicides" that are questionable, also: J.H. Hatfield, Gary Webb, and Danny Casolero come to mind.

Highest level ladder This is the political ideology map, with a few players named. This is only mentioned to show the ideological glue which links everything together.

1) The neocon ideology is derived from long term big-oil and big-business ideology

2) Scholars, scientists, and oil-supply engineers have learned of "peak oil" (oil reserve decline)

3) This is not only a national security problem, but a western civilization security problem

4) A war which would put mideast oil in western control is an obvious ploy (relatively easily done with superior military)

5) The homeland political climate (circa 2000), in the main, was similar to pre-world war II (stay out of wars, Vietnam remorse, etc.)

6) So the neocons have been planning a new pearl harbor (let a foreigner hurt US to enflame the body politic and change political climate) for years (10 or more)

7) the neocon background figures are the ultimate machine in terms of planning (hyper organized)

8) in 1990's they studied demographics and knew Florida was a place to focus for 2000 (elections)

9) Jeb Bush was deliberately put in Florida by the neocons prior to 2000 (a chess move) (if a Texan decides to go to a particular state for political reasons, how does "he" [they] decide?)

10) After the implant, Jeb helped set the stage for the 2000 election (he can make political appointments, etc. e.g. Harris)

11) this 2000 "victory" set the stage for the new pearl harbor (and the new state model)

12) they were then in place to effect the new pearl harbor and in position to begin to stack the deck (judge appointments, Commissioner of Transportation, legislation, etc.)

13) Florida became the state model for the rest of the states in the nation (they new about Ohio too and planned ahead for it)

14) Ohio fits the Florida model (they are now working on California and New York)

15) they were in place to multiply/consolidate power

16) they were also in place to effect 2004 election

17) they are in place to effect "the new world order"

NOTE: I do not think we should focus on this, but rather should focus on the chain from Clift on up.

He is the high chain link from the other thread, and the bottom chain link here.

Ladies and gentlemen, start your engines ...

Sorry to go off topic, but is everyone aware of this campaign? Deadline is today.

The Yang Affidavit I mentioned in #4 ("What gave him the authority to do this, in terms of evidence, was an affidavit of the Yangs (YEI) accusing Georgalis of bribery."), is "The Affadavit of Tyng-Lin Yang", filed in case number 152-2015, and identified as "Exhibit I-1".

That affidavit accuses FDOT investigator Georgalis of bribery. She lost her job as a result.

But the courts later re-instated her.

I think we need the documents, files, of the court case. Anyone know the case number or where the documents are?

These would be more objective documents and would have statements and the reasons the court did not believe the Yang affidavit, and other pertinent matters.

Clift evidently had "believed" the Yangs if he became instrumental in getting rid of Georgalis and Curtis.

MissPersistent in the Lemme-death thread at post #735 focuses on some of the statements of Clift.

I think his initiating of the anti-Curtis retaliation in obedience to someone unknown at the moment places his testimony in the we gotta check this out column.

Brad -

There is never ENOUGH infomation, let alone "more than enough." If you stop digging, our heart will die. Unless you pass the baton to someone else, who WILL keep up an active investigation, we are, in all our passionate resistence, lost. Brad, if you leave us for "glory," your real story will be lost - as will be your following.

Find out who at FDOT put the kabosh on the VPD's re-opened investigation. Then try to find out under whose orders they did that, or what reasoning they give for doing so.

I have to admit that I'm discouraged by the suggestion that the Yangs are the most likely suspects in this. Ray Lemme didn't say his investigation went "all the way to the top" of YEI, or China.

Maybe he only meant Florida, but even so, that implicates Jeb Bush, which is less than one step removed from the White House.

Let me restate something I said in the other thread: If you want public pressure to be applied in these matters, you have to interest the public. Corruption, even spying, won't do that.

In short: if it bleeds, it leads.

The silence about these matters from the Left side of the Blogosphere is deafening. I commend Brad F. for his tireless PR efforts of late. Which makes the strange blackout on the Left about these matters that much more odd to me.

I have not read Clint Curtis' book yet, but I plan to as soon as my copy arrives, which should come with a VHS of 'Court TV: Cops on Trial - Scapegoat or Murderer? Georgia vs. Cassotta', about the death of Donya Jones and former Valdosta Police Officer Cassotta.

A synopsis of the video states:
"In this series installment, an officer stands accused of murdering his ex-girlfriend and their two-year-old son, and of participating with other officers in a conspiracy to conceal incriminating material evidence."

Particularly interesting, from what another commenter said, was that the death of the officer's girlfriend was ruled suicide, until evidence of her strangulation came to light.

Similarly, the recently 'recovered' photos of FDOT IG Investigator Raymond C. Lemme appear to show trauma to the neck.

I may not be posting as frequently as I did on the other thread while I consider these two sources of information, but I would like to ask if anyone has access to a copy of the report Dateline NBC did on the Jones-Cassotta matter. If so, please indicate so in the comments of this thread. I would like to obtain a copy if at all possible.

Thank you, Brad and those who take these matters seriously.

The cognitive dissonance of this society reaches the left, too. The people can't face the fact that they are complete suckers. To see the truth would embarrass and shame them, especially the feelings around 911, which the whole society fell for and has a long way to go to extricate itself. The fear of facing their stupidity is greater that the fear surrounding the event. They would have to face the whole Terrorist Hoax. And the election sham. Instead they are up Michael Jackson's ass as an escape route.

This wheel has got to squeak incessantly, then squeal, then roar until it becomes unbearable, however long it takes and whatever the obstacles.
Back to the law of physics...crime seeks justice.

To catch the murderers, you need a sting. A well-planned, careful sting. Remember, numerous back-ups.

Someone told me that Laura Bush accidentally killed a boyfriend by driving over him with a car? Do you know anything about this? Is it true?

I think somebody should approach Ray Lemme brother who was the only person to say he doubted the "suicide" theory ,without "imediate family" stirring things up all efforts to re-open the Lemme file will be prevented by the "higher up's".
So much stinks about this case that you don't need to be a "rocket scientist" to realise "justice has NOT been seen to be done".
We need someone with credibility to present the "crime scene photo's" to Lemme's brother .Maybe Clinton Curtis could help with this presentation.
Do we have any ex-law ,police or Justice people following this thread who could offer some advise to get this case re-openned excluding any of the previous investigators ?

Is America still the land of the free or the land of lies?
Who will be next to die for the lies?

Anybody looking into wrong doings by anyone connected to this current adminstration should request police protection as a form of protest at the growing list of people killed in the line of duty..Gary Webb,Hunter.S.Thompson,Ray Lemme to name just a few.

Have the "people" totally lost control of THEIR goverment.
Or else WELCOME TO THE THIRD WORLD!
Define the word "RAPE" .

Don't forget to give your lawyer your "SUICIDE PASSWORD" so somebody will know you were not "DEPRESSED" !

http://whatreallyhappened.com/
repost from other thread.

Laura Bush run a stop sign I think and killed the other driver ,covered up by family and friends ,W snorts coke ,covered up by family and friends,W avoids draft ,covered up by family and friends,Saudi's invest in W OIL company ,covered up by family and friends,W lost election in 2000,covered up by family and friends,W stole election 2004,covered up by family and friends.
There's only on thing money doesn't buy and that poverty,are ya feeling lucky.

Hi Peg,
Here's the link, to Free Republic of all sites!

Peggy #11

This is indeed true. It was in an intersection and the driver of the other car was her fiance.

His signature for his hotel check-in features a loopy "Y" that is not redone in ANY of the seperate styled "y" writings in his note. Each of those cursive "y" figures lacks consistency as well. Whoever wrote that did so as a joke, make it so obvious it isn't his handwriting to scare other whistleblowers...

Someone taking the time to write a note to beloved would make everything formal and neat out of respect for loved ones. Otherwise there would be no note written.

This was either forced or forged, some other circumstance is involved. Most likely the note is coerced and the forgery finished by others, or an outright entire forgery.

It appears more towels are missing from the rack... someone else was there and cleaned up after finishing.

Most often in the course of these actions a person would have regrets as the action occurs, call others before the deal happens. Buyer's remorse would indicate blood on the phone, attempts to embellish the note further at blood loss stages, and general struggle signs with objects around the person. If you don't give a damn about living anymore, why the hell would you care about hotel furniture and decor?

Another death in the life of someone who may have been enabled to oust the Bush crime syndicate.

Wow, I like it here, so many wonderfully inquisitive folks.

Excuse my simple 2 cents, but isn't it kinda crucial to question "WHO let the flashcards out?"

I mean, without THAT, where would this investigation be?

Again, perhaps that person deserves an "Apple"?

Heard the investigator in this case (that "lost" the flashcards) left to teach somewhere?

Remember no cieling photos. They can test spray the cieling, if he cut arteries under normal blood pressure conditions it would spray the cieling and leave patterns for a single person episode. Most likely he was drugged, as the coagulated blood shows.

So the trauma evidence does not match the method overall.

If the door was locked with an internal bolt, who had the room beside said person? Probably the same person who checked the room out.

There's no way he took that much time and order to kill self and left too much possibility of living. Most often suicides are done away from home but a place the person would feel no sense of "passing pain" to others.

He cared enough about family to write this, but not enough to avoid perhaps leaving a hotel worker with the task of finding? Most likely he would have driven away from house and done this deed outdoors.

Leaving his state to do this , having been a state employ, is quite odd as well. If he went to this stage to do so, much more certain outcome would be guaranteed by more gruesome form of exit.

To not stick with what he knows best, his state's land, where his family could recieve full closure from the service of help there, is also strange. Why deny a certainly better closure if you go to such other apparent great lengths?

The belt raised veins, and held him in place. Someone stood over him at the tub causing the trauma evidence via bruise, basically sat on him most of that time, pinning him over the tub and holding out the cut arm.

Embalmers often have to provide muscle tortion to make fluids circulate. Similar effect here. Pin him and physically massage trauma area to force the outcome desired, greater circulation and blood loss.

The note was absolutely ridiculous. It was not a suicide note. And it couldn't have been coerced. It was too neat and controlled. Some nervousness would have been apparent if he were under the gun.

Anyone ever see any comparison of how many Republican politicians/operatives turn up suicides, or plane crash accidents victims, compared to Democrats? Got a link?

I only recall Vince Foster during the 8 Clinton years.

Didn't Hale Boggs die in a plane crash (Warren commision member)

Carahan, Wellstone, any others?

Compared to how many Republican pols?

Suicides: H.Thomson, G. Webb, The fella during the Enron meltdown (remember him??), the woman that claimed GWB had raped her?

I'd like to know how many on this board suffered anyone committing suicide they personally know.

I'm 49, and have lost many close to me, through illness, accident and through homicide.

But I've never known anyone that committed suicide. Just seems WAY too many in too short a period, all connected in some way to Bush.

And in this way? Gosh, it takes big balls to gut yourself (sorry for the graphic description, but it boggles the mind to believe ANYONE depressed would also injure themselves in this way). Wouldn't you just do it with pills if YOU were depressed?

I've read that suicidal victims do so to punish those close to them, sometimes. I didn't get that drift in this story. But, I didn't get the drift that his family found this odd, either. Or, rather, no allegations from family of suspicions.

Did this investigator start divesting his personal possessions? I hear that is one sign of someone comtemplating suicide.

And no, I've NEVER returned to a hotel/motel room AFTER I've checked out at the counter. According to this article, he did. How? How did he get a key to room? Didn't he give room key to checkout counter, or was it a keycard, but it really doesn't matter, he should not have been able to go back in for no reason. Did he tell them he had left something in room?

Why have I never returned to a room I've checked out of? THINK!! If you return to a room, they will send someone to check and see if you TOOK anything from fridge/bar, before they settle with you, at least at hotels/motels I stay at. Of course, I stay at places in Asia, mostly. I was in Texass a few months ago, and the motels I stayed at there (La Quinta was one), didn't stock anything in a minibar, so I am unsure they sent someone to check the room before they check you out.

Is this SOP for this establishment? They DO check the room when you are checking out!!!

The hotel staff found him WHEN??

Curiouser #9 "Find out who at FDOT put the kabosh on the VPD's re-opened investigation. Then try to find out under whose orders they did that, or what reasoning they give for doing so."

Indeed. I am even curious as to why it was re-opened. This could show a crack in the wall. It seems like the re-opening was someone speaking out of school or acting out of turn.

"I have to admit that I'm discouraged by the suggestion that the Yangs are the most likely suspects in this. Ray Lemme didn't say his investigation went "all the way to the top" of YEI, or China."

If you are in reference to my post #4 where I said, among other things, "The investigation Clift initiated was a retaliation. I think it originated outside of the FDOT.

Who did Yang call to initiate the retaliation, and who counselled them?"

The term initiate does not mean I think they have the power to do this alone. On the contrary you should know that I consider them pawns on the chessboard.

However, under investigative law certain things must exist for investigations to begin and continue. The Yang company provided testimony that bribery had occurred.

I do not think they came up with the idea themselves. They just put ink to paper thru their lawfirm contacts.

Most likely it was planned from higher up.

Gwbmalecheerleader #20 The use of the arm slashing, being so very rare, leads me to believe that the perpetrators were getting instructions or had developed such techniques from a foreign cultural influence.

Somewhere knives and or cutting are more in the norm. I suspect chinese but am not sure.

Here in the US gunfire is #1 with hanging #2. So the Lemme scenario is not the norm.

Another interesting thing would be to find out what techniques hit men from the chinese culture use when they want to simulate a suicide to cover up a murder.

If that leads to a cultural fingerprint then we have moved a bit closer.

Fred #15, I suppose that because Lemme was perhaps overworked AND they could use the Valdosta Keystone's and the Fleabag Inn as a backdrop, they'd be relatively safe. Plus, I read somewhere that a person with chronic medical problems sometimes go for suicide. Lemme may have fit enough of the bill to go ahead with the suicide.

If the note was meant to ease Mrs. Lemme's mind and provide closure, then the person perhaps knew and liked her? I go with Robert Clift on this part.

The 1234 Bulova does not appear to have been returned to the Mrs. (am I wrong on that?) and I wondered if it was even his - since he was a military reservist mayn't he have preferred military time-keeping watch? Maybe 1234 is a message to the Valdosta Keystones?

And just in case, let it be known that I am very happy.

RE: post #6

Item #13 in that post proposes that the Florida model pre-2000, 2000, and thereafter as needed, was the model to later be used for Ohio.

Here is a link which says:

"TALLAHASSEE - Seven times during his reelection bid, Gov. Jeb Bush climbed aboard a private jet owned by National Century Financial Enterprises of Ohio, the once-high-flying health financing group now under federal investigation for multibillion-dollar fraud, campaign finance records show.

Bush also raised money at the tony Port Charlotte estate of National Century's former chief executive and founder, Lance Poulsen, 59. 11/26/02" (bold and italics added).

Snoopy, I think the timing of the placement of Abreu (March 2003) - with a "clean as a whistle," background definitely merits consideration here. He is a direct link to Jeb. And neither of those two are going to do any dirty work ever and whatsoever. Especially considering the information about the "career" guy he replaced.

The second and third rungs of the ladder (post #4) are linked together again in this link, which says:

"Lt. Gov. Frank Brogan and the Bush administration may have to face the serious ethics questions that continue to follow Florida House Speaker and candidate for Congress Tom Feeney. According to today's Daytona Beach News-Journal, Feeney sponsored a meeting between Yang Enterprises that included Lt. Gov. Brogan and Roy Cales, the former head of the State Technology Office."

Note that this links Yang into the rung at the very high places at #2 and #3.

It also adds another interesting player, in the sense of technology (election machines, and spy material to be shipped elsewhere, and lucrative contracts), who is named as "Roy Cales".

Hi Dear All,

Just kidding about the moniker! It's just Czaragorn. But seriously, if we can get enough people scrolling through this neck of the woods, the new, improved Deep Throat (Deeper Throat? Deep and Throatier? Deeper, Throatier?) is bound to come out of the woodwork. He/She may of course remain anonymous, but can guide our investigation. Please make as many people as possible aware of this blog - eventually it'll reach the right eyes, and we'll start getting hints. NB: The hints will have to be subtle, since everyone knows TPTB are onto this blog like Tom Robbins's hobo on a ham sandwich. Also, I just had to take a break, step out into the garden to inspect the newly blooming snow drop and crocus pioneers, and get a breath of fresh air, because he who must not be named was just on NPR justifying the "skilled diplomat" Wolfie as president of the World Bank. Fortunately the fresh air kept me from puking... In any case, keep on posting and forwarding. Critical mass is just around the corner...
Love and Peace, see ya in Pepperland...

#17 'isn't it kinda crucial to question "WHO let the flashcards out?"'

I agree. The photos officially don't exist. They were suppressed for a reason, and leaked for the same reason. This, more than any other speculation, suggests that the circumstances of Mr. Lemme's death were not as straightforward as the police report makes out. If the case really was re-closed at the request of FDOT (not the family) that is also fairly irregular.

Still, Mr. Lemme's death may well have been suicide - no other hypothesis presented here is any more convincing, if it was staged it was done by real professionals - and the police need not be part of a conspiracy - they may simply have decided it would be less trouble for all concerned not to ask too many awkward questions. After all, if it was suicide they would just be wasting their time and causing the family pain, and if it wasn't they would plainly get themselves into a great deal of trouble.

But somebody needs to ask those questions now, and Google is not going to have the answers.

Anyone know a good investigative reporter in Florida or Georgia who could do some FOIA requests, speak to the police, the coroner, the undertaker & the witnesses, get hold of the telephone records, show the photos to an expert forensic pathologist, speak to Mr. Lemme's brother and his former colleagues, find out who at FDOT requested the case be reclosed, find out what Lemme's 'big investigation' was, check the receipt dates with the credit card company, track down the mysterious payphone etc.?

That would be a start...

Speaking of the need for a Deep Throat, exactly how anonymous are our posts? Could anyone posting here be identified, located, etc., somehow (barring giving out identifying information)?

Maybe 1234 was the warning to VPD not to pursue?

I dunno, Miss P, but I could easily hop a flight to Amsterdam and go to an Internet cafe there and send a comment to this site and be back in the office real quick, any old time (Amsterdam is way cool, by the way), and there ain't a sleuth in the world who could pin it on me - OOOOOOPS!!! Guess I just gave it all away. Oh well, a trip to Amsterdam sounds nice...

Of course, that said, all of us here have already been identified, residents and non-residents of Bradville alike... Thus, the only solution is, PASS IT ON!!!

Miss Persistent #29 -

I think it's fairly safe to assume that supposedly anonymous posts anywhere on the Web are not anonymous at all. This said, there's a caveat: that, although everyone is traceable, NOT everyone is worth the tracing. Speculation on sensitive subjects is one thing. Insider knowledge will trigger the alarm button.

Peg C., then I guess we shouldn't hold out hope for a Deep Throat appearance...

Miss Persistent #33 -

Unless, as Czaragorn suggests, it is done at a remote location, or unless the DT poster is very good a disguising the fact that HIS speculation is anything but conjecture. Anyway, Clint Curtis is a bona fide DT on another issue and he has managed to stay (I assume) among the living by being visible. Perhaps someone else could try the same thing.

Speaking of Clint Curtis, we have had no news lately as to his whereabouts or what he is doing.
Also;what information is avalible on his testimony to the FBI, and the congressional appearance?
It is just sitting in a pile of papers?
What say Brad-??

Dredd #26,

That's an important observation. Roy Cales' involvement and departure from the State Technology Office is another red flag and warrants further research. the key dates related to him should be added to the timeline.

Seems like everybody "gets out while the gettin' is good" in this debacle. He may have been forced to be involved by Gov. Jeb and Tom Feeney because Cales was the representative of the Technology Office and his stamp of approval was needed. The circumstances around his departure may indicate whether Cales was a willing accomplice or not. Another noteworthy departure? Lt. Gov. Frank Brogan resigned to be the President of Florida Atlantic University in Boca Raton, Florida before Jeb's second term got underway. The stench of the graft and corruption must have gotten to him.

As an aside, here's an interesting article about Brogan's compensation at FAU.
link

Food for thought: Having the assistance of the "right kind of person" in the State Technology Office would facilitate access to confidential documents and sensitive email. Someone with system administrator privileges could have surreptitiously kept up with the progress of investigations in the IG Office or elsewhere.

Miss P. #25,

I think the timing of Tom Barry's departure is very suspicious. Let's add it to the already long list of unusual circumstances.

RLM,

Regarding who to write in Florida (from the previous thread), perhaps Rep. Alcee Hastings or Rep. Robert Wexler, both of South Florida. Rep. Wexler is on the House Judiciary Committee, along with Rep. John Conyers of Michigan. Oh, by the way, Rep. Tom Feeney, the subject of much of the discussion here, is also on the Judiciary Committee.

Does anyone think it remotely possible that any of the evidence citing Lemme in Valdosta on a Sunday or before work on a Monday could have been planned (or fabricated) in order to make the death something that was not a "company assignment" and therefore not qualified for FDOT's travel accident insurance?

I know we are focusing on the bigger picture here, but I can't resist.

This idea hit me when reading this post: #224

Concerning the Bulova watch that was stopped at 12:34, could that have been the "mark" left at the scene used by a professional to prove it was his work, to collect pay? It could be, but of course, it's speculation. Yet, worthy of examination.

For reference I came across this extensive discussion concerning all the facets of being a professional killer, and I found some cold logic in them:

"Faked suicides are very tricky too. A left-handed man will not shoot himself with his right hand. A man who jumps off a building to his death will not hit the pavement twenty feet from that building. Distance alone will indicate whether he jumped or was thrown. A person with a phobia for heights would choose a suicide method other than jumping from a building., And many a hanging has been discovered to be a result of foul play because the knot was tied in the wrong direction, or because there was no evidence of a ladder or other way for the victim to get his head into the noose.

Contrary to popular belief, most suicides do not leave notes. Usually these people are so depressed that all they want is out. So if your mark is not visibly depressed and all seems to be going right with him in the world, immediate suspicion may result from his death."

Raymond was not showing signs of depression. He was a little "stressed", as his wife declared, but we all would have killed ourselves by now if a little "stress" at work was all it took to push us over the edge. No. Stress could not have been the cause. That was just the Police and Mary Ann searching for any possible explanation as to why he did himself in. More than likely, this stretch was to help Mary Ann, as well as the Police, to make sense of Raymond's apparent suicide.

Ultimately, Raymond showed ZERO signs of depression. Now, that fact could be used as reason to argue against the theory of a professional hit. If a killer was going to choose a method of dispatching his target that showed no signs of depression, suicide would not be a wise choice as it might arouse suspicion. True, if the killer made the choice. Not true, if the killer was fulfilling a specific requirement made to him by his employer.

However, Raymond did leave a note, which does not happen in most suicides. Because of that fact, when ever there is a note, it should arouse suspicion of foul play by the Police. Yet, this could conversly suggest it was not a professional hit, as a pro should know that most suiciders don't write notes.

Taking those facts into consideration, combine them with the marks of time in this case. First, 12:34, on the Bulova watch. Second, there is the mark of time, 8:10am, on the note. Independently, these 2 items seem to make sense. The time on the watch...maybe Raymond was...marking the point at which he decided he was going to go through with it? The time on the note, he wanted to mark this significant moment he writes his last goodbye.

Taken together, however, those times make no sense, chronologically. According to his wife, Raymond left his house early Monday morning. His watch was stopped at 12:34 6/30/03. Bulova dates on their watches are designed to spin over within 10 minutes after midnight. This means, more than likely, the time the watch stopped was 12:34PM, Monday. Noon. Is this the moment he decides he's going through with it? Okay. Fine, but then why would he write the note in his book, on the desk, almost 20 hours later, especially if he was so obsessed with "time"? Suddenly 12:34 wouldn't seem to be so significant.

Remember, the police noted the bed was untouched, so Raymond didn't sleep all night? No, because the handwriting in the note wasn't sloppy or tired looking. So he slept on the floor, or he didn't write the note? Which is it? Neither, if he was already dead.

Finally, theses conflicts lead me to believe that the 12:34 time means nothing to Raymond. So, why is it there? It's a mark of an assassin who knows Police note times found on time pieces at crime scenes in their reports. The police report becomes the invoice to the employer of the assassin.

If it was an assassin, why did he choose "suicide" if Raymond wasn't "depressed", and why would he plant a "note" if that is generally not advised? It wasn't the assassin's choice. He was ordered to make it happen that way, because the employer(s) of the killer are people that know Raymond, and they also know his wife, and ONLY with a suicide can there be a suicide note to Mary Ann, a way for her to have closure. The employer(s) of the hit don't like to think of themselves as "savages", rather, they like to think they are "good people". The employer of the hit had nothing against Mary Ann. Raymond Lemme was just getting too close in his investigation and they knew he could never be persuaded to stop. He was a good man, but he had to go. And out of guilt for Mary Ann, they wanted to make it seem like Raymond left by choice.

Also, just curious, would Raymond's brother know if Raymond hated the sight of blood? If he did, then bleeding to death would not be the method of choice for Ray. And: Why would someone who is supposedly so neat and orderly, choose such a self observable, messy method of suicide?

Okay, now back to the bigger picture.

I spent yesterday doing a little research on names of key players. I found an article about Shannon Floyd, who in March of 2002 completed a prestigious year-long course at the National Firearms Examiner Academy in Washington, DC.

VPD Chief Frank Simmons said "Detective Floyd's training will further strengthen our crime scene unit and improve our ability to solve cases."

It just sounds to me like she was serious about her career as a Detective.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
April 10, 2002

MEDIA RELEASE: 04-02-04
CONTACT: Crissy Staley
Telephone: 229-259-3548
Fax: 229-333-1838
E-mail: cstaley@valdostacity.com
http://www.valdostacity....ressreleases/ACFA8BB.doc

Floyd graduates from National Firearms Examiner Academy

Valdosta, Ga. --- Detective Shannon Floyd, a three year veteran of the Valdosta Police Department, recently graduated from the National Firearms Examiner Academy (NFEA), which is hosted by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF). The yearlong course is the first academy of its kind in the field of firearms and toolmark identification, and selected only 10 students from law enforcement agencies across the country for its third class.
"It was an honor to have one of our officers selected to participate in a federal training program," said Chief Frank Simons, Valdosta Police Department. "Detective Floyd's training will further strengthen our crime scene unit and improve our ability to solve cases."

The course consisted of four phases. The first phase consisted of four months of research and technical papers. For phase two Floyd traveled to the ATF Forensic Science Lab in Washington, D.C., for 15 weeks of hands on training. Phase three, Floyd returned to Valdosta were she worked on simulated case examinations, and the fourth and final phase, Floyd traveled back to Washington, D.C. to ATF Headquarters for a two week follow up school to present her research projects. During the follow up course Floyd participated in simulated court testimony in the Federal Courthouse in Alexandria, Virginia in conjunction with current federal and state prosecutors and defense attorneys.

-more-

Dredd and everyone:
Please post dates and web addresses (whenever possible) to go with the info copied from articles. TIA (Do you have the info for your post #26?)

Dredd #26 & Snoopy #36 re:Cales
I don't know if I've missed it in what's already been posted, but I did some research on Cales yesterday. He quit FDOT around July of 2001.

Has anyone researched his mentioned attorney Stephen Dobson?

07/25/01
Florida CIO under investigation for grand theft

AND
Ex-tech chief to reject deal
Roy Cales, the governor's tech chief who quit last year after being charged with felony theft and forgery, will reject a deal that would, for the second time, wipe his record clean.

Cales' attorney, Stephen Dobson, said they are rejecting the deal because his client is innocent. "If you didn't do anything wrong, and you didn't commit a crime, then you shouldn't accept any kind of plea," Dobson said.

.....Bush had consistently defended Cales as the best pick for the $95,000-per-year position, despite a bankruptcy and another grand theft charge in Cales' past. That charge, that Cales embezzled $1,800 from a lumber company he worked for in 1985, was dropped after Cales admitted to the crime and repaid the money.

The State Technology Office works on behalf of all state agencies, awarding millions of dollars' worth of complicated computer hardware, software and consulting contracts. A planned transfer of 1,760 technology workers and a roughly $600 million budget has been postponed several times by legislative committees dissatisfied with the accountability of the office. **more**

So Mr. Cales was acquitted.
Ain't it great to have friends who can make those annoying legal problems go away?

Former state tech chief acquitted of grand theft

©Associated Press
March 13, 2003

TALLAHASSEE --- Roy Cales, who once ran the state's technology office for Gov. Jeb Bush, has been found innocent on the grand theft charge that caused him to step down.

Well crap - my html didn't work on my links - will paste here:

From my post #39
07/25/01
Florida CIO under investigation for grand theft
link

Ex-tech chief to reject deal
link

Finally:
Former state tech chief acquitted of grand theft
©Associated Press
March 13, 2003
link

Sorry about that - wonder why my code didn't work this time? I'm using the same as usual. Will try again - busy at the moment.

Also this article:

Audit: Tech office can't justify deals
By Associated Press
Published July 29, 2004

link

TALLAHASSEE - A scathing audit says the State Technology Office may have improperly awarded big contracts to vendors who used politically connected lobbyists, but officials said Wednesday the agency has since changed the way it does business.

The 20-page audit said the Technology Office, created by Gov. Jeb Bush nearly six years ago, failed to provide even basic justification for many of the deals.

The audit showed more than three dozen companies had some interest in doing work with the agency, but the contracts appeared to be designed to give an advantage to two - Accenture and BearingPoint - and included clauses that gave them opportunities for price increases and renegotiations.

The audit said "the competitive process may have been circumvented" in awarding contracts to the two companies, which are responsible for a number of state operations, including the state's Web site. Both have longtime Bush friends and political supporters lobbying on their behalf, although those relationships were not mentioned in the audit.

Auditor General Bill Monroe recommended that at least seven deals worth more than $300-million be renegotiated to make sure the state's taxpayers get their money's worth.

The technology office's head, Simone Marstiller, said Wednesday the renegotiations have begun and the companies are cooperating. She denied that the contracts were awarded based on their lobbyists.

-more-

Questions :
Did Lemme have personal life insurance and did the widow get a pay out?
Who took control of Lemme computer and files at his office after his death?
Did Lemme own a laptop computer?
What happened to his home computer after his death ,was any attempt made by FDOT to recover any file related to his work on his home computer?
How long had Lemme been working on this case?
Do FDOT Investigators work alone or do they have offsiders?
Did any new staff join Lemme's office in the weeks/months before his death and leave in the weeks/months after his death?
Who re-openned the case ,who shut down the case?
Who continued the work (case load) Lemme was assigned at the time of his death?

I find it odd that these Investigators would work as "lone wolfs" and would think a team aproach would be more likely.

A contact for us might be :
Longwood Democrat Harry Jacobs

Saturday, October 12, 2002
Click Here
E-mails at odds with Feeney denials

By LAURA ZUCKERMAN (laura.zuckerman@news-jrnl.com)
Staff Writer

TALLAHASSEE --- Despite repeated claims that he never used his influence to benefit his client, House Speaker Tom Feeney arranged at least one meeting between state officials and an Oviedo computer firm that was having trouble with its state contract.

E-mails obtained by The Daytona Beach News-Journal through the state's public records law contradict statements made by the Oviedo Republican to the state Ethics Commission, which cleared him of ethical missteps surrounding his ties to his client, Yang Enterprises.

Yang's dealings with the state have been at the heart of an ongoing dispute over questionable invoices in its $8 million technology contract with the Florida Department of Transportation.

Longwood Democrat Harry Jacobs has attacked Feeney's relationship with the firm in the race for a congressional seat that includes part of Volusia County.

Feeney, who doubles as Yang's general counsel and lobbyist in Orange County, told ethics investigators that he had not spoken to "anyone at FDOT or the State Technology Office concerning the Yangs."

***MORE***

Another possible contact:

Janet Reno

I'm curious about Lemme's meds found at the scene - were pills missing for the days in question?

More on Harry Jacobs

WESH.com
Local Company Claims Campaign Ad False
Lawyer Files Cease-And-Desist Order
UPDATED: 11:40 a.m. EDT October 8, 2002

OVIEDO, Fla. --- A NewsChannel 2-Orlando Sentinel poll shows a big gap in the race for a new congressional seat in Central Florida.

District 24 covers parts of Volusia, Seminole, Orange and Brevard counties, WESH NewsChannel 2 reported.

The poll shows that Republican State House Speaker Tom Feeney would get the vote of 51 percent of those asked, while Democrat Harry Jacobs would get 32 percent; 17 percent remain undecided.

Meanwhile, a local company said it's getting caught in the middle as the two candidates battle it out.

(Democrat Harry Jacobs) A political advertisement for Jacobs claims that Yang Enterprises, an information technology company that employs more than 200 people at the Kennedy Space Center, benefitted from a cozy relationship with Feeney, their attorney and lobbyist.

"Maybe it's a coincidence that Feeney's top client, Yang Enterprises, got an $8 million state contract," the advertisement stated.

Company President Li-Woan Yang said the ad's innuendos, which are being seen by thousands of television viewers, are false.

***more***

Kira #43 -

Good post, Kira.

About the "meds," they most probably wouldn't have been anything drastic. Anti-cholesterol, anti-plaque stuff, with maybe some nitrogycerin thrown in for accasional chest pain. A skipped day is no big deal.

Yangs still involved as of May 07, 2004 with Bush re-election.

Winning the War on Terror Tour event

Where:
Yang Enterprises1420 Alafaya TrailOviedo FL, 32765

When:
Event Begins: Friday, May 07, 2004 3:30 pmEvent Ends: Friday, May 07, 2004

What:
Event Information:U.S. Rep. Tom Feeney (R-FL) continues the Bush-Cheney '04 Winning the War on Terror Tour in Florida. Florida is one of many states hosting the Bush-Cheney '04 Winning the War on Terror Tour. The tour will highlight John Kerry's inconsistent support for our troops and his troubling record on national security.

More Info: Contact: FL Bush Team
Cost: Free

Kira -

You're framing this case very nicely! What cache are you using for your research?

Peg C - I'm just googling (if that's what you mean by "what cache."

Peg C #47 -
About the meds:

Lemme had 2 'scripts with him for his heart:
COMMENT #620 (our previous thread)
...KIRA said on 3/14/2005 @ 12:54pm PT...
The 2 medications found, according to Shannon Floyd's narrative report 7/24/03:

1. Ecotrin - "The Safer Aspirin"
2. Pravachol - Same as Prevastatin - to reduce the risk of heart attack

My question is this:
If he took his regular dosages --- WOULD HE BE CONTEMPLATING SUICIDE??? Why take them if he was going to "check out?"

More RE:Harry Jacobs

DECISION 2000
SCOTT MARTELLE

11/26/2000
Los Angeles Times
Home Edition
Page A-18
Copyright 2000 / The Times Mirror Company

Two legal experts said Saturday that a Seminole County judge should withdraw from hearing a lawsuit challenging 17,000 absentee ballots key to deciding the presidential election in Florida.

At issue are revelations that a worker for Circuit Judge Debra Nelson's election campaign this summer had entered voter identification numbers on absentee ballot applications that the campaign sent to individual voters.

Similar acts by two Republican activists lie at the heart of a lawsuit by Harry Jacobs, a Democrat and local personal injury lawyer, against Seminole County's supervisor of elections, Sandy Goard.

Jacobs is asking that all 17,000 of the county's absentee ballots be thrown out because Goard allowed the Republicans, working out of her office, to correct 4,700 Republican absentee ballot requests she had already rejected. The two Republicans spent 10 days filling in missing voter-identification numbers, and the ballot requests were then accepted.

-more-

Kudos Kira! You're doing excellent research!

That discovery you listed in #48 ought to be enough to trugger a congressional investigation against Feeney. Seems like Feeney believes he can get away anything. A wiser person would distance themself after the facts were brought to light.

WHOS BEEN PLAYING WITH "HTLM" PAGE SETUP IS WAY TO WIDE

{I think that was caused by some wonky HTML code. To fix it, we have to go in and edit the comments. Nobody's been playing with the layout! And it's fixed now. Cheers! WP}

Still trying to find Harry Jacobs' location TODAY...keep running into articles that make me think we SHOULD contact him.

Sierra Club Endorsements

Harry Jacobs For Congress

The Sierra Club is proud to endorse Harry Jacobs for the District 24 Congressional seat. The District 24 seat was one of two new Florida Congressional seats the state gained due to Florida's explosive growth.

In Brevard, District 24 includes parts of Cocoa and Merritt Island, and all of Port St. John, Titusville, Mims and Scotsmoor. It also includes parts of Orange, Seminole, and Volusia counties. Jacobs, an attorney and former Vice Mayor of Altamonte Springs, has taken strong stands on all of Sierra Club's positions and policies. Among his top environmental priorities are Environmental Justice, Species and Habitat protection, and preserving wetlands. He supports legislation to make it easier for citizens to learn what toxins are being put in their communities, their air and their water while fighting to reduce the levels of those toxins and to clean them up. Harry Jacobs has pledged to vote to repair the flaws with the current international trade agreements to ensure that these trade agreements do not continue to compromise environmental, health and safety standards.

Jacobs has strongly criticized the Bush administration's shortsighted energy policy, which includes drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR), and its lack of leadership of global warming, including opposition to the Kyoto Treaty.

The Jacobs campaign needs our grassroots help in order to win. If you can volunteer with activities such as phone banking and distributing literature door-to-door, you can contact the campaign directly at (407)
862-8442, campaign@jacobsforcongress.org (web site, www.jacobsforcongress.org) or contact Sierra Central Florida Group Political Co-Chair Cecilia Height at (407) 657-9582 or cheight@cfl.rr.com or, locally Pete Kostrzewa at (321) 254-1572 or kostrzewa@earthlink.net. Brevard voters are reminded to get out and vote for Harry Jacobs on November 5th!

MMIIXX - when did page get so wide? I wouldn't have noticed it because my screen set-up shows it just fine, but I looked back at our previous threads & it is indeed much wider than that one.

Is that something Peg C or another of our brilliant techs can do or is it only controlled from Brad's end?

OK - Here's current info for our Harry Jacobs:

Jacobs & Goodman PA, Altamonte Springs, FL

Contact Us
Jacobs & Goodman, P.A., accepts clients and referrals in all areas of personal injury and wrongful death in Florida and throughout the United States.

We would be privileged if you would contact us.
Se habla español.

Our Office:
Jacobs & Goodman, PA
890 State Road 434 North
Altamonte Springs, Fl 32714

Phone:
(800) 226-2949 Toll-Free
(407) 788-2949 in Orlando

Fax:
(407) 788-1378
(407) 778-8628

Kira #39 Ok, we can start narrowing dates on posts.

The story flow here covers about a decade. But the Clift events attached to the Lemme death are half of that.

And you are right, we need to work backwards from the Lemme death.

Will watch it more closely.

But note that because one name drops out at a particular time does not drop out that office. So we need to keep track of the offices.

Note that the #2 player on the who's who ladder established the technology office. That office generated flak almost from day one. Names came and went. But the office remains.

That is because technology is a prime mover in the high tech fraud of today's world.

Thanks millions Kira for jumping in to this thread. This one is gonna be huge.

Awesome work Kira, high ten!

Re: #39 on Dobson, the attorney for Cales. Very interesting advice from an attorney, hadn't heard that one before. But, I guess, if the punishment is light (if any) then one can save the reputation by, uh, taking the 5th in that way. Cagey. That's what it boils down to. Right Dredd? Refusal to answer any questions is becoming just a tad commonplace in this administration, isnt' it.

Peg C., it would have been nice to know how many meds were gone (or not) from the freaking container wouldn't it? For example, if all of Sunday was there (refilled) and only Monday morning gone (or none gone) it would be quite telling information. Blame it on the Valdosta Fleabag Investigators. Of course, like everything else, it could have been a purposeful omission.

Still thinking about the "fix" for Sunday and who would have benefitted by having that look like a check-in day. Seems FDOT might have insurance troubles if their guys off themselves (or someone get's caught for killing them) while on duty. It would be nice to know their insurance information.

Dredd #58
I wasn't saying we shouldn't look at Cales because he dropped out. Just that he did. Also, look at Cales' history for committing fraud - several instances - which puts him into a category of "easy" to use.

My request for dates and links to be included is for me personally (and others who do this) to be able to study the articles in their entirety as well as to keep a record of where I got it.

Technology is a prime mover in this piece of the puzzle and I'm interested in any "wireless" technology which might have come into play during the "fixing" of the 2004 elections or in otherwise shaping the Power Play/Base.

I'm including here excerpts from an article (very long) which provides a bit of insight re: IT and the bushies.

Livin' La Vida Boca
From: Issue 46 May 2001, Page 155 By: David Dorsey

(Jeff Bonar)...spent most of last year creating a new wireless software program out of a spare bedroom in his home in Delray Beach, Florida, anticipating the need for venture capital, and hoping to change the world --- though maybe not in that order. He shares these ambitions with a cadre of entrepreneurs in the region: technologists, visionaries, sun worshippers --- people living the good life.

Bonar knows that his future is anything but assured, yet he believes that he's in the right place at the right time: Palm Beach County, where elections stall and electronic startups can still bootstrap small fortunes out of great ideas.

...Bonar's wireless firm, Mobilelements Inc. (formerly JumpStart Wireless Corp.)

....They live at the epicenter of a new age in computing, one that will arrive when Web-based application services, fiber-optic networks, and wireless technology create universal connectivity with nearly total freedom of movement and virtually unlimited bandwidth.

...Bonar earned his chops as a software wizard for IBM. Now a free agent, he is selling a monthly service to small businesses that uses cell phones to link frontline employees --- maintenance workers, delivery people, anyone who travels a lot --- to an Internet application that guides and tracks their workday. .... The future may have its address here in South Florida.

...Jeff Kline (founder of Ameritrend Corp. which was later sold to Danka Business Systems in 1996)...Now president and CEO of Accris Corp., a Web-development and data-storage company in Boca Raton, ... where the Internet Coast movement was conceived.

...Scott Adams (Hiway Technologies)..With the help of four Florida-based venture-capital firms, he formed Cenetec to incubate the most promising high-tech startups in the region. Adams and Kline became the point men for the entire Internet Coast movement, which seemed to crystallize around them on its own.

...It was when they met Larry Pelton (President of the Business Development Board of Palm Beach County) that things started to gel. He commissioned the Stanford Research Institute to study the South Florida economy. The studies identified six industries with the most potential for growth. The IT/communications cluster was among the most significant

...Adams and Kline recruited Richard Paul-Hus, vice president of business development at Hypower Inc., a small construction-services firm in Fort Lauderdale that lays fiber-optic cable in the region. Deeply involved in Republican politics, Paul-Hus served on the finance committee for Governor Jeb Bush's campaign and had clout with the governor's IT task force. He helped set up a meeting with Bush and agreed to spearhead a committee devoted to getting a NAP built.

...Paul-Hus arranged for Kline to meet with Julia Johnson, who heads up IT Florida, the governor's task force. "She just lit up," Kline says. "She started to contribute ideas. She came down to Boca, and we explained the major engines behind the growth along the Internet Coast. She agreed that the governor should have his first cyber-town meeting here, so she set up a meeting with him."
When he arrived, Bush was already fired up. It turned out that he had just read a Wall Street Journal article that morning about centers of high-tech innovation around the country. The story snubbed Florida.

"That article couldn't have been better timed," Kline says. "As we started talking, Bush got more excited. He had 30 minutes blocked out for our meeting. His assistant kept coming in and saying that he had to move on, but Bush kept saying no. He kept jumping out of his seat and going over to the bookshelf. He was excited. We were excited. He asked us if we needed money. We told him that we just needed his support. We asked him to write to all of the major telecommunications companies and tell them that Florida is serious about building a NAP. We told him that we needed this effort to be backed by corner-office or top-level support."

"Done," Bush said. "Email me a list of whom I need to talk to."

"We sent him the phone numbers of all of the CEOs at the major telecoms," Kline says. "He legitimized the whole thing."

...What happened in that room was essentially a universal and simultaneous flash of insight in hundreds of brains at all of the largest telecommunications companies. It was a vision of immense profit. The southern tip of the state is already a hub for transoceanic fiber-optic cable --- a globally centralized portal for all Internet traffic in Africa, the Caribbean, Latin America, North America, and southern Europe. Much of the infrastructure is already in place, and yet, until this meeting, the telecoms simply hadn't recognized that a tier-one NAP in South Florida could link all of that fiber-optic cable --- and most of North America --- to an explosion of e-commerce in the Southern Hemisphere over the next decade.

--MORE-- (Really, a must read)

===================
Jeff Kline
Founder, President & CEO
Accrisoft, Inc.

Jeff Kline is the founder, CEO, and President of Accrisoft Corporation, a software development company that specializes in web portals and content management solutions. Prior to this, Mr. Kline was the co-founder and CEO of Ameritrend Corporation, where he developed the concept of the totally integrated office. In 1990 Inc. Magazine recognized Ameritrend as the one of the fastest growing companies in the United States. In 1996 Danka Industries, the second largest imaging company in the world, acquired Ameritrend. Mr. Kline began his career in 1983 at Burroughs Corporation in Cleveland, Ohio, and became one of their top three sales representatives in the country before transferring to Boca Raton, Florida. As the youngest manager in the division’s history, he successfully engineered two turn-around operations. In addition Mr. Kline is one of the original pioneers and co-founders of the InternetCoast. The InternetCoast is the tri-county organization whose mission is to establish South Florida as a world-class technology region. He also serves on the following boards: the InternetCoast, InternetCoast Institute, Emergin, Greater Miami Chamber of Commerce, Enterprise Florida TEC Leadership Council, the Spanish River Christian School, and the Emerging Technologies Center of the Americas (ETCOTA) of Miami-Dade Community College. Mr. Kline is a strong believer in community involvement.

=================
Arthur Anderson

Of course we all remember Arthur Andersen from the Enron debacle:

Originally founded in 1950 as a traditional accounting and tax business, Accenture (formerly Andersen Consulting) created the start of business consulting as it is known today, in 1989. Accenture is now among the most influential business and technology consulting entities. Since 1998, Accenture's annual revenues have grown from just more than $1 billion to $8.3 billion. In addition, the firm serves more than 85 of the Fortune 100 largest global public companies and many of the world's leading governments. For more information, visit Accenture at www.accenture.com.
===
Accenture
Accenture, a New York company, was involved in creating a database of felons and dead people to help counties take them off voting rolls, but that database turned out to be so flawed - it omitted many Hispanics, for one thing - that Bush scrapped it earlier this month.
===
(Remember Bahrami took the place of Roy Cales)

Florida to stay outsourcing course
02/23/04
By WILLIAM WELSH
CIO's departure raises concerns about MyFlorida technology program

The sudden resignation Feb. 4 of state Chief Information Officer Kim Bahrami stunned industry observers and raised concerns that the state would abolish the independent State Technology Office or make changes in the MyFlorida Alliance outsourcing project.

Six months ago, Bahrami's office awarded contracts worth about $140 million over seven years to Accenture Ltd. of Hamilton, Bermuda, and BearingPoint Inc. of McLean, Va., for the ambitious initiative, which involves the consolidation and sharing of technology resources to eliminate redundancies across state government.

...The MyFlorida project has given IT infrastructure outsourcing "a national presence and exposure it didn't have before," said John Goggin, vice president and director of government strategies for the market research firm Meta Group Inc., Stamford, Conn. "It's leading in the direction a lot of states are going to have to go."

... Barry Webster, Accenture's lead partner for the Florida government practice.

link
Posted on Tue, May. 28, 2002

Tech firms donated to Republicans
Companies were cited in comptroller's critical audit
By Nancy Cook Lauer
DEMOCRAT CAPITOL BUREAU CHIEF

Five companies whose contracts were questioned by Comptroller Bob Milligan in a scathing audit of the State Technology Office donated $44,800 to the Florida Republican Party and candidates poised to make decisions about technology purchases.

Lobbyists for those companies gave an additional $26,080, according to a Tallahassee Democrat analysis of 131,890 contributions of $200 or more reported to the state Division of Elections during the 2000 election cycle and 74,004 recorded so far for 2002.

The analysis found contributions from Accenture LLP, Gartner Inc., Information Systems of Florida, KPMG Consulting, Oracle and their corporate officials and lobbyists. Lobbyists in Tallahassee generally have more than one client, so not all their contributions can be attributed directly to the technology companies. But their contributions are important because they help lobbyists gain access to decision-makers on behalf of their clients.

Most of the contributions went to the state Republican Party; the other recipients include Gov. Jeb Bush, Education Commissioner Charlie Crist, Treasurer Tom Gallagher and former Senate President Toni Jennings, now chairwoman of Workforce Florida Inc.

===================
I hope these articles help. /kira

Jeb Bush is to Florida as Ken Lay is to Enron

The Tallahassee Democrat
Posted on Mon, Mar. 04, 2002

By Tom Rossin
SPECIAL TO THE DEMOCRAT
It seems Gov. Jeb Bush spends most of his time these days running from one place to another to refute analyses, reports and polls that show his lack of leadership has run Florida's economy into a ditch and broken the back of our public education system - reports from such left-wing think tanks as the Florida Chamber of Commerce that is.

Just as Ken Lay hid Enron's fiscal mismanagement from employees and investors, it seems our governor will go to any lengths to mislead Floridians about how the state's economy has gone from surpluses to deficits on his watch.

When Jeb Bush took the reigns of power nearly four years ago he spoke of lofty goals such as creating jobs, more efficient government and a world-class education system. Now, near the end of his term, we are back to deficit spending; our school system is at the bottom of the national pile and government graft has become of the order of the day.

After promising the most ethical administration in history, Gov. Bush has overseen corruption and nepotism run amok in his administration. It is now estimated that nearly 40 percent of our $48 billion dollar state budget gets kicked back in the form of contracts with private companies - many of which employ former Bush staffers.

-more-

oops - what did I do?

{It's ok, Kira. I fixed a few things for you. Don't worry. You're learning fast! WP}

Yay - I fixed it.

Kira #60 "I hope these articles help"

We are not worthy!!!

I am breathless ...

Our map is real ... cmon folks ... take the red pill!

I think Kira is the Oracle!

Dredd #64 -

Nope. Just the Goddess.

Gee y'all - *blush* - thanks! I'm better at research than I am at putting the picture together - that's where the REAL Oracle & Goddess work is!

We make a great team!

Dang these are hard to read in the wide format

Hi, Brad or Winter - can you repair the wide screen - makes it too difficult to read. Many thanks.

{I've gotcha covered, Peggy. Sorry it took me so long to get to it --- I've been busy elsewhere. In other words, please don't read my blog!!}

Dredd #8 re:Georgalis --- "I think we need the documents, files, of the court case. Anyone know the case number or where the documents are?"

4-10-03 02-3020 STATE OF FLORIDA, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION v. FLORIDA COMMISSION ON HUMAN RELATIONS and MAVIS GEORGALIS

AND as of July 2004:

Case No.: 04-2339F
Judge: D. W. DAVIS

Petitioner: MAVIS R. GEORGALIS
vs.
Respondent: DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION

Date Filed: 07/06/2004
Date Assigned: 07/07/2004
Last Docket Entry: 02/28/2005
Location: Tallahassee, FL
District: Northern

Agency: Department of Transportation
Status: Set for Hearing on Thursday, April 14, 2005.

Kira: Pretty amazing research. Brad should give you a job!

I agree with Billy (#28): We're told there were no suicide pics

Kira: Pretty comprehensive research! I'm impressed! Brad should hire you as an aide...

I agree with Billy (#28): We're told there were no photos of the Lemme "suicide" scene, and here they are, leaked on to the internet.. That's heavily suspicious right there, regardless of the rest of it. It stinks, bigtime!

COMMENT #9
"...CURIOUSER said on 3/15/2005 @ 1:31pm PT...
Find out who at FDOT put the kabosh on the VPD's re-opened investigation. Then try to find out under whose orders they did that, or what reasoning they give for doing so."

I think we should contact journalists near the Valdosta area. Here's a .pdf file I found interesting regarding the illustrious VPD:

January 2001 - Valdosta Police Agencies Frustrate Officer-Turned-Reporter

======
Address & info re: Valdosta, GA Representative:

Representative Ron Borders (D-GA 175th)
Contact Information

e/bios/Borders,%20Ron/Borders,%20Ron.htm>Web Site
E-mail

604-C Legislative Office Building
Atlanta, GA 30334
Phone: (404) 656-0265
Fax: (404) 463-2634

Main District Office:
1010 Slater Street
Valdosta, GA 31601
Phone: (229) 247-5888
Fax: (229) 259-9907

Background Information
Party: Democrat
Residence: Valdosta
Marital Status: Married (Tammy)
Prev. Occupation: Realtor
Prev. Political Exp.: Valdosta City Council, 1988-98
Education: BA Marian College, 1978; MPA Valdosta State University, 1990
Military: USAF, 1961-65; USA, 1965-69
Birthdate: 09/07/1943
Birthplace: Princeton, NJ
Term: 3

Okay, I've contacted a few friends for advice on how to get something like this investigation reopened.

One, who works for the New Jersey Dept of Justice, says we should mass mail requests to the Georgia Attorney General.

Another, a newspaper editor/reporter and former police officer, recommended the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. He also said Georgia's had a few "dirty dealings", which wasn't surprising.

Will post if I hear from anyone else.

Oh, and about the photos - the fact that they were "leaked" means that SOMEONE wants this to come out - but they are afraid to come forward (with good reason!) We need to remember this when we're contacting anyone related to the case - and try not to push TOO hard. Also be careful about leaving phone messages and sending email - the walls have eyes and ears.

*sigh* I screwed up the html code again - well, just learning!

Representative Ron Borders

E-mail

Thurbert E. Baker, Attorney General - Georgia

The possible bad news is that he was groomed by Zell Miller – ewww. Baker’s listed as a Democrat - but, so was Zell - until we realized he’s one of the Pod People!

I did read an article about how he has sparred with Republican Gov. Sonny Perdue over many issues, and won.

In 1988, Mr. Baker won the first of five elections to represent part of DeKalb County in the Georgia House of Representatives. In 1991, after just one term in the General Assembly, Mr. Baker was chosen by Governor Miller to serve as his Assistant Administration House Floor Leader. In 1993, Governor Miller promoted Mr. Baker to the position of Administration House Floor Leader.

Thurbert E. Baker was appointed Georgia's fifty-second Attorney General by then-Governor Zell Miller on June 1, 1997 following the resignation of then-Attorney General Michael Bowers. On November 3, 1998, he was elected to serve a four year term as Attorney General, and he was re-elected by the voters of Georgia on November 5, 2002.

Capitol Mailing Address
40 Capitol Square SW
Atlanta, GA 30334
Phone: (404) 656-3300

===

Georgia Bureau of Investigations
GBI

===

I still think we ought to contact Harry Jacobs. He already made an advertisement exposing Feeney & Yang - he probably lost his campaign to Feeney due to voting FRAUD. Wouldn't he be interested in seeing this case opened up? Maybe he hasn't been keeping up with the story.

Somebody should write a great letter or call him.

People -

A slight swerve ( barely) into the OT lane: I just came upon the following paragraph in my bedtime reading and wanted to share it with you:

"The problem, of course, was that people did not seem to understand the difference between right and wrong. They needed to be reminded about this, becasue if you left it to them to work out for themselves, they would never bother. They would just find out what was best for them, and then they would call that the right thing. That's how most people thought."

from The #1 Ladies' Detective Agency by Alexander McCall Smith

If you need some down-and-kind time, read this man.

Kes #72 -

Weee...are...the Tro-o-jans, my fr-i-e-e-ends...

And not the rubber kind, either. We females have the b-word! Good going. I'm totally outside the territory, but would like to contribute.

Brad, Winter or someone -

Could you please realign this thread? Or - have I had an inspiration - does the expansion of the line-width reduce the bandwidth in long threads?

Winter Patriot,
Thank you so much for fixing my stuff! Sorry I caused you so much trouble. It would be nice if we could edit our messages ourselves...oh well. I'll try to do better.

Did I put in the wonky html tag that changed the page layout? If so I'm sorry.

Slightly off-topic, but illustrative of the wonderful human being that Jeb Bush is, I thought you might want to read this Associated Press article written by David Mark. The cited incident occured in 2000 and can be read at this link:

http://www.jug-or-not.com/pbfa/removepress.html

Governor Jeb shares his brother's philosophy of open government.

#78 no problem, Kira. You're getting it. Don't worry.

Kira -

That stuff is minor. Your effort is major.

Here is a lead as to how to get cellular phone records in Florida.

This case tells me that the FDOT cell phone records of anyone working on the Lemme or the YEI cases is public record, so long as it was a call related to a public as opposed to a private matter.

It may very well be, too, that their private cell phone records, when they are working on a public matter, could also be gotten.

BTW, the icing on the cake here, is that in involves one high on our ladder - Feeney.

Media General v Feeney, et. al

update on post #85

This also applies to email. Yes all email conducted as a part of public activities (government employees) can be attained thru freedom of information type requests.

We need someone in Florida to process these requests ... any volunteers?

We could get all of Lemmes email and phone records while working on the YEI cases.

Lemme at em ...

YEI evidently has top secret government clearance:

6. YEI is not under investigation by the FBI, and no YEI owners, officers or employees have been arrested. In fact, the officers, including owners, of YEI possess Top Secret Clearances that require thorough investigation of an individual and his/her background. (link here, italics, bold added)

But as we found out in the Gannon matter, "thorough investigation" is in the eye of the beholder.

PS, how convenient the top secret clearances must have been for Henry Nee ... the spy ... eh?

CALLING ALL CARS!

I, Miss Persistent, currently of sound mind and body (and very happy), do hereby make the following SPECULATION:

Lemme's car was probably government issue. Anyone could have taken a similar (or even exact)looking car to the fleabag motel on Sunday and done the check-in work. Someone tried very hard to make this look like an off-hours suicide. FDOT was in on this for sure. (So is VPD because key evidence is missing - consistently.) Someone on this level will want to talk.

Clift is very clear that he arrived at work at 6.20 to get Lemme's message, but then can't at all remember when he called Lemme's home later that day (he says sometime between 2.30 and 4, while Mrs. Lemme says the message was left at 4).

I am still working from the bottom up.

Dredd #86,
Terri in South Florida might. We haven't heard from her in a while.

Dredd #83 -

Wasn't Pamela Leslie the one that Lemme was supposed to meet at 2:30 the day he called in late to work? Hmmm...

KestrelBrighteyes #90 She is sorta like the atty general in a sense because she is general counsel. They handle most FDOT legal matters.

She may have no animosity whatsoever towards Curtis and/or Lemme ... same with others in the office there ... these things for the most part flow thru her office as a structural and procedural matter.

Of course it could be otherwise too. No way for me to know at this point.

If Lemme was going to meet her or her staff it was possibly for getting subpoenas or for filing court actions. It may indicate he was ready to leap forward and start putting the heat on.

The meeting between Lemme and general counsel was scheduled for 1.30. Counsel supposedly called Clift at 2 to say Lemme hadn't shown up. Clift then waits until 4 to try Lemme's home - although he told VPD he called sometime between 2.30 and 4.

I suppose Lemme needed to keep counsel apprised because counsel would guide Lemme on the type of legal documentation necessary for any claim to be court-worthy.

Interesting Documents of Record (lighter text below is a link to document)

Georgalis v FDOT, case #02 CA 1664, FACTS involving Curtis, and Mavis' firing, order reinstating her. date is July 2002.

Georgalis v FDOT, case #03 CA 85, Order denying FDOT Motion To Dismiss. date is may 2003.

YEI sues Curtis, FDOT, Georgalis, et. al. and Feeney is their lawyer, date is June of 2003.

FDOT ordered to pay some backpay to Georgalis date is June of 2003.

Hi Miss P.,

Regarding #88, Mr. Lemme's car probably wasn't government issue. It was a Chevy Malibu (typically not government issue) and it had a vanity license plate. Government vehicles in Florida would have a special license plate (usually yellow) and the word "State" or other special use identifier stamped on it along with a unique registration number. You might also remember that an FDOT employee picked up the car in Valdosta to return it to Mrs. Lemme.

I don't think these facts diminish your point either way.

All Concerned I have been off in court world. Florida is new to the published opinion world, and only has cases from 2003 in its archive at the appellate level.

I have been probing those depths, and have a bit of a handle on it now.

Here is a case that describes some of the machinations of the Mavis Georgalis story ... in the whistleblower category:

FDOT v Georgalis, et. al

While this case does not go into any depth as to some of the deeper issues, it does show that these things appear on the radar from time to time.

And it does show that the powers within the FDOT alligned against Curtis and Georgalis and for FEI. This we know has a bad ring to it.

I will continue to focus my efforts there for awhile, to bring any of the players or subjects to the fore.

This will present, hopefully, a developing map with which to chart our way.

Cheers.

Clint Curtis was not ultimately reinstated because he filed his complaint too late:

FDOT v Curtis

But, here again, we see the powers that be high up on our ladder organized against one who was trying to bring sunshine into the darkness.

Take note and proceed to his aid.

Take note, also, of two other names in the ladder:

Pamela S. Leslie and Marianne A. Trussell, who presented the arguments that harmed Curtis.

Who took over Lemme "case load" upon his death?
This is important as there must be "files and notes" pertaining to his on-going investigations.Also how could you be a professional investigator and not realise the "personal risk" involved after the doubtful "suicides" of Gary Webb and Hunter.S.Thompson (just recently)both working on subjects related to this current Adminstration.I find it hard to believe these guys work in a "vacuum".
Anybody that can read can see that Feeney is involved in this and that he isn't the "top of the heap",I don't understand how there is no legal channel to pursue this,we in the "outside world" see America as the country with the highest ratio of Lawyer/population numbers .Don't you have some form of legal/criminal oversite watchdog group that citizens can take complaints to ?
Look at Clinton Curtis walking around with information surporting the fact that a member of your government requested vote rigging software from a company that pays him to lobby for them and they employ illegal aliens as a programmer who steal Hellfire Missile Chips and sends them to a hostile country ,only to get a $100 fine ,damn I get a $100 fine here if I park my car in the wrong fricken' place.

Are THEY putting something in the water over there ,is there so much money to BUY everybody off that when somebody DOES THEIR JOB and wont be payed off you just kill them and pay off everybody to uphold the SUICIDE verdict no matter what the evidence shows.Look at Gary Webb ,2 thats T.W.O. two gunshots to the face as a method of suicide.

Nero fiddled ,Bush bullshitted

YEI had evidently lost a case at a lower level and had appealed to the District Court of Appeal, First District, State of Florida. It was an appeal involving the FDOT. The appeal was denied (1/21/03):

02-4641 YANG ENTERPRISES, INC., v. STATE DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION DENIED 1/21/2003

The decision was not published, only listed (link here).

I am working on getting to some of the files to look thru the pleadings, etc. to see what is up. Bear with me, this takes time.

As pres Johnson used to say "Let us continyah to continyah".

I'm no forensics expert, and have no opinion on why the watch stopped or why the blood was where it was. But an amateur sleuth can almost figure this case out better without even considering the crime scene.

The Florida D.O.T., which should have wanted every angle considered in Lemme's death, in fact wanted the opposite...to have the books closed with a finding of suicide. That's more than a smoking gun, that's an exploding cannon, friends.
I don't even need the blood evidence.

In my letter to Chris Shays I said, "People planning to kill themselves don't drive 80 miles to another state first, check in at a fleabag motel, turn around and drive all the way home to sleep, get up at 5:15 a.m. the next day to drive all the way back to the motel to check out (without ever having occupied the room), then sneak back into the room without re-registering, and slash their wrists. Not plausible."

Lemme met someone on the morning of 9/30. At that point, that person or a confederate had already registered the room in Lemme's name in Valdosta, on 6/29. The person Lemme met on the road might have promised to feed him information, but instead pulled a gun and forced him to drive his own car to Valdosta, with the confederate driving their getaway car. They went to the room that had already been reserved (probably through a rear entrance). Lemme was murdered immediately, and the person who had first made the reservation then checked out...as Ray Lemme, the idea being to delay an investigation by making the motel people think the room was vacant. It worked for one day.

Hi RLM, I follow you all the way until the delay of the investigation. Why, if "Lemme" checked out on the morning of 6/30 did the maids not go to clean and discover the body then on 6/30 at 11 since he had supposedly checked out? Why did they wait another day?

Miss Persistent #97
I agree with your question re:maids not trying to clean the room at 11:00 on 6/30. From VPD reports, the hotel was FAR from no-vacancy so the maids would have lots of free time on their hands - they were probably looking for something to do to fill the time. Well - maybe. Unless they *duh* forgot...or maybe the DND sign on door fooled them or they were just too lazy.

I don't know how motel maids keep up with which rooms were recently vacated - does the motel mgr. generally give a list to them so they can clean the appropriate rooms?

Lots of info here to look at, plus thinking about all the points in Lemme's case that just don't add up.

COMMENT #72 [link]
...KestrelBrighteyes said on 3/16/2005 @ 8:49pm PT...
"...Oh, and about the photos - the fact that they were "leaked" means that SOMEONE wants this to come out - but they are afraid to come forward (with good reason!) We need to remember this..."
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

I agree, K, Someone saw that this whole thing stinks, it didn't sit well with them, and snuck those "nonexistant" photos out in an attempt to get this unburied again. What other reason than to attempt to undo a coverup?

Jus a little more on Roy T. Cales:
Questionable judgment
© St. Petersburg Times, published September 4, 2001

...Cales is accused of using a phony letter from a television station to persuade a Tallahassee bank to lend him $35,000 five years ago.

...However, it also is true, although the governor hasn't acknowledged as much, that Cales was a glaringly inappropriate choice for such a sensitive position in state government even before his current legal problems became known.

It's not just that Cales had never held any job with responsibilities remotely comparable to the ones he was given in the governor's office, where he was in charge of a $600-million-a-year budget. Cales also had a bankruptcy and a grand theft charge in his background when Bush made him the state's first chief information officer.
-more-

Tech background

The bearded, 6-foot-6-inch, 280-pound Cales caught Gov. Jeb Bush's eye when his company, Genesis Communications Network Inc., hosted a Web site for Bush's 1998 gubernatorial campaign. That job followed a contract with the Republican Party of Florida.

"I think a lot of people question how he got where he is," said former Genesis partner George Varn.

Varn was Cales' boss when Cales worked as stage and production manager at the Civic Center from 1989 to 1994, following Cales' earlier employment as set builder and technical director for the theater department at Tallahassee Community College.

After a short stint as a manager of a Tallahassee computer store, Cales started his own business, Integrity Data Inc. But a stroke in 1997 forced him to close his 15-month-old business and file for bankruptcy protection.

He resumed his relationship with Varn - this time with Varn financing the new company Genesis, while Cales oversaw the day-to-day operations. The company, which Varn still runs today, provides high-speed Internet access to businesses in Tallahassee.

Once Genesis was up and running, Cales started data consulting company Gencom Network Inc., which he later sold to employee-turned-partner Mark Mills. That company, renamed Yuma Solutions Inc., is "moderately successful" with offices in Tallahassee and Tampa, Mills said.

...[Cales did not mention his past on his] state of Florida job application, which asks job candidates whether they've ever been convicted or pleaded no-contest or guilty to a felony, or whether they've had the adjudication of guilt withheld.
-more-

So Cales gets away with all his embezzeling/financial crimes and then starts a new business (On-Point LLC) and is now a lobbyist (still w/the gov.) It's interesting to note that he's a lobbyist for SAIC. Read this article by Lynne Landis: Voting Machine Fiasco: SAIC, Bohemoth Military Contractor, Wants to Be inside Every Voting Machine; Three Way Scam on Diebold Review

MyFloridaHouse.Gov
(Search for last name Cales under lobbyists)

Roy T. Cales
150 S Monroe St Ste 206
Tallahassee, FL 32301
Phone: 850/224-1002

Principals

Consolidated Technology Solutions
270 N Palafox St Pensacola, FL, 32502

Mainline Information Systems, Inc
1700 Summit Lake Drive Tallahassee, FL, 32317

On-Point, LLC
PO Box 15142 Tallahassee, FL, 32317

TEKsystems, Inc
7437 Race Rd Hanover, MD, 21117

ACS State & Local Solutions, Inc
200 S Biscayne Blvd Ste 1080 Miami, FL, 33131

AT&T
101 N Monroe St Ste 700 Tallahassee, FL, 32301

Government Vendors Association
PO Box 15579 Tallahassee, FL, 32317

IT Florida
1700 Summit Lakes Dr Tallahassee, FL, 32317

SAIC
11251 Roger Bacon Dr Reston, VA, 20190

On Point LLC

Excellent question. I struggled with it. Here's what I think happened.

One of the killers checked out (as Ray Lemme, who was already dead in the room). The other killer hung the "Do Not Disturb" sign on the door as his last act before hitting the road. Was there a possibility the maids had a list of who had checked out and who hadn't? Yes, but it was more likely, especially in a second-rate motel, that they just knocked on doors and went about their business. In this case, they saw "Do Not Disturb" and let it go at that. Management wasn't concerned, because as far as they knew the room was empty.

By the second day, the "Do Not Disturb" sign was a red flag, especially if the same maid was on duty. So they called the cops after not being able to enter the room easily.

Oh yes, one more link-up for Cales et al:

Genesis Communications Network Inc.

I don't know how accurate Daniel Hopsicker is in his reporting, however he has made connections between Genesis companies and Adnan Khashoggi (who is also connected to the various Triad companies - and any mention of this seems to activate certain Trolls - fair warning, they may congregate here after this post!)

Read this story by Hopsicker if you're interested:
Khashoggi, Cults & Coverups

...And then we read something about the Genesis Communications Network in Florida that made out heart grow cold… or at least cold-er.

In the July 23, 2001 South Florida Business Journal was a story called “Florida's tech leader under investigation.”

-more-

RLM #101 Your description of how the maids let the room go is probably right on. Good thinking.

(Ohhhh! ding! ding! ding! ding! ding! I got post #100 woo-hoo!)

mmiixx #95

I think Gary Webb and Hunter.S.Thompson died after Ray Lemme.

RLM #101. What about this. The main desk never gets the word on check-out at 6.45am on 6/30 and so the maids don't come. After another day and the information comes out, the managers fake the check-out so as at least to get paid for the original 24hrs or so. They use the information from the possible phone-in registration (that's why they take the information in the first place, right?). That would explain why the maids didn't come AND explain some discrepancy in check-out time. So, is it possible that the check-out time could have been back dated?

Forgive me if anyone thinks I'm belaboring any of the details but to me anyway, I need the timeline to work first.

Snoopy, what did the vanity plate say? And where was that, I missed it altogether.

Ding ding ding ding ding - Kira, it's really the 800+th post! Congrats!!!

Miss Persistent #105
In the picture of the motel room vanity there is a yellow paper that I have always assumed was the check-out receipt. Was it? On page 2 of this report signed by Shannon Floyd - she writes that there were 2 motel receipts on the vanity counter "a check-in receipt and a check-out receipt." link

Aha - the tag description is here:
link

Oops - gave the wrong link for the check-in/check-out receipt info:

Here it is:
link

Wasn't the customer copy missing? Sheesh. Hmmm. (Not that THAT makes sense either!)

The maid that knocked at 11.05 on 7/1 (BTW, her ph# is not blacked out - hint hint) sounded so proficient. Called, called, knocked, knocked. I'm not being able to imagine goofing off and skipping cleaning - I mean what if the manager re-assigned the room.

Somebody please, remind me (or point me to the correct document) about the discrepancy in check-in/check-out and dates. Where did that come into play --- who mentioned it or wrote about it first?

Insider Magazine states that the police were "forced to surrender" the photos. Anybody know more about that?

Dredd yep, the order matters not, the method of "damage control" does

mmiixx #95

I think Gary Webb and Hunter.S.Thompson died after Ray Lemme.

Shame theres no "World Court" to take this to, ah.

For Miss P: Could have happened that way. My sense of this motel is that they have a minimal staff giving minimal service, relying on a central computer somewhere out of state.

Whoever booked the room in Lemme's name could have gotten his credit card information from the D.O.T. If they had copies of his handwriting to forge the suicide note, which is probable (the letters slant forward and the sentences move upward, both signs of a positive, optimistic person), then obtaining his credit card info would have been easy. So? Book it over the phone, ask for easy check-out ("I'm leaving early on the 30th") and once the card goes through, no problem! Pay for one night in advance, and the clerk doesn't even have to be there at 6:45 a.m. on 6/30.

If Ray Lemme had thought to call his credit card company on the evening of 6/29, they might have been able to tell him, "There's a pending charge on your account for a motel room in Valdosta, Georgia." That would have tipped him off, but why would anyone think to make such a call?

You need to find out how the booking was made ,has anyone phoned the motel to see if they will remote book .Are the owners/managers the same as in 2003?

MMIIXX, Well...that's why I left the hint hint.... We have a resident attorney, a resident researcher, several resident logicians, resident historians, resident investigators, resident psychologist, resident jokesters (ala deep throat), etc., a resident travel guy, many resident big brains, AND a resident phone guy. Yoohoo? Anyone?

The two receipts do not look odd to me at all.
The 6/29/03 looks like someone called for a reservation for the room ----or more likely came to look at it. Why? to check it out for the next day, pick an 'out of the way room'. And most importantly to make sure there where no "SECUITY CAMERAS".

So making an assumption that L. did not rush to Georgia in the a.m. on his own, or any of the other stuff which just does not 'fit'--let's assume that he had help of 'some' help from folks close to him. And those folks did not want an autopsy, and a small town police force who would be more easily decieved.

So, in the a.m. of the 30th the guy came to take the room and payed with a credit card in advance with L.'s credit card and signed the receipt, for a 24 hr stay.

Was that Lemme? With all the back and forth and odd to go to Georgia and non working timelines?

Let's say it was a guy and and a gal and it worked this way:
check the room out and come in as Lemme in Lemme's car.
Lemme was given a heavy sedation the night before and maybe some extra doses of ecotrin.
A lady (let's call her A-) with L. sedated in the back seat, drives out in another car and stops to make two calls.

Why? To put a time of Lemme's trip out to Georgia.
A call to his boss and left a message a call to his 'own' answer phone to leave the same message.
An interesting error--like she forgot she supposed to be acting like L. calling her.

Somethings come up---so why would L. continue on to Georgia? Nothing 'came up'--it was just a diversion, both calls to establish a mysterious unknown 'big case' guy( and both calls to be deleted because it was not L.'s voice on the phone,) but the testimony would be of 'something big', I'll be late.

The phone log was later used as evidence of L.'s position, in transit--unfortunately, as pointed out earlier in this thread that time line did not jell.

Some one else checked in and signed the pay receipt. The car with L. arrived and he was brought in and whatever went on, he was still sedated and non resistant. He was put in the tub with his pants on as it would be easier to maneuver him and suicided.

The note was prepared in advance and was not signed---because 'they' did not want the signature to be compared with the 'sign out' receipt.

The added dose of ecotrin-just a bit of a guess-because aspirin prolongs the clotting time. They had to have enough blood to fool the police into accepting this as a self induced suicide by blood loss.

Valdosta police did compare the note with entries in the day plan items and found them to be consistant in form. Detective Spencer did go to the convenience store across the street to review their videotapes taken on 6/30th and 7/1st, so they did try. But an out of state resident locks himself in a room and slices his arm and dies looks an easy call.
Little note is made of the remarkable inconsistancies.

Call to 'someone' at the FDOT--just supports the suicidal mood of L.--case closed.

There is so much all-out evil/ugly here. We're living in a sewer, guys, and none of our so-called "compassionate" officials would hestitate to "flush" us.

IMPEACH BUSH! Visit impeachbush.org ( no link, but it's easily found). We've got to crawl out from under this obscenity and be human beings again.

Here's another link

Miss P. #105

Mr. Lemme's Chevy Malibu had a Florida license plate. This plate was the "United States Reserves" type which is one of many different styles available in Florida. The car was registered to Mr. Lemme, not the state. The digits "5700" comprised the registration number. Not sure if that was Mr. Lemme's choice or if it was random. Sounds intentional to me. Maybe an Air Force squadron number or something else significant to him.

This information was noted in V.P.D. Detective Spencer's report.

RE: rungs #2-3 of Post #6 seem supported by this story.

I've gone over the facts we know of this "suicide" case a thousand times. The 2 biggest things that don't make sense to me are how the investigators didn't react to 2 glaring conflicts.

Conflict #1:
Sabita Vallait, the Knight's Inn motel clerk tells police that Lemme HAD NOT yet "checked out". She goes further to say that Lemme was "supposed to check out" at 11:00am. When the police examine the room, they find a "check out" receipt in Lemme's posession. There is nothing in the Police reports that indicates any further questioning of Sabita Vallait's conflicting statement.

Conflict #2:
The dates on Lemme's check in/out receipts are 6/29 and 6/30, respectfully. Yet that conflicts with his Wife's testimony, Robert Clift's testimony, and just about every other aspect of the case. In the police reports there are no indications that Detective Floyd made any effort what-so-ever to try and confirm potential errors in the dates set in the credit card computer at the Knight's Inn.

In one report, they mention the receipts and the check in date of 6/29 and check out date of 6/30. Yet, in another report, they simply state that Lemme checked in on 6/30. There is no declaration that the Police even noticed this discrepency in any of the reports.

They never acknowledged this major discrepency.

They never confirmed the discrepency.

They never investigated the conflict.

Yet, they closed the case anyway. This taken together with the fact that the Detectives noted in their reports they couldn't get the pictures out of the memory cards - yet 2 years later they mysteriously show up on the internet - spell only one thing: The cover-up of the murder of Raymond Lemme.

Lemme crossed state borders the day of his disappearance, which means, if this cover-up is to be investigated, it would be in the FBI's jurisdiction - NOT VALDOSTA Police Department's.

Brad, have you called the FBI? This is such an obvious case, how could they not start an investigation here?

Dredd #120 -

No surprise. We're not bored with this yet, are we? Come ON! Yell!!!

The 6/29-6/30 timeline precludes suicide by itself, unless 1) Ray Lemme drove 80 miles to check into a hotel room, didn't use the room but drove 80 miles back home to sleep, got up at 5:15 a.m. and drove 80 miles back to the motel to check out, then somehow re-entered the room without registering again and killed himself, or 2) the motel's date machine was a day off, it was 6/30 when he checked in, not 6/29, the checkout clerk was lying or mistaken in saying Lemme hadn't checked out yet (and if he had checked out, he still necessarily sneaked back in somehow).

Both these scenarios are absurd. The case cannot be judged a suicide on this basis. Not possibly. Our job now is to deluge public officials and investigative reporters with the facts. A high-profile death cannot have been a suicide, important people have a huge stake in our believing it was, and a police chief who has acknowledged the date problem nevertheless has closed the case at the request of the same people the decedent had been investigating when he died.

Let's demonstrate that we don't live under Marcos or Sukarno. A copy of my letter to Chris Shays is going in the mail to Bob Woodward today. Other copies are going to Sen. Bob Graham, Rep. Alcee Hastings, Rep. Cynthia McKinney, Robert Wexler, Harry Jacobs, and others.

Fred #121,

It's been my assertion all along that this is an FBI case. It involves a crime that may have taken place in two states, possible transport of a victim over state lines, possible murder of an investigator who was researching companies who had questionable ties to federal government contracts (NASA, etc.), potential interference and conflict of interest with a U.S. House of Representative member (Feeney), etc., etc. What does it take to get somebody at the FBI to notice?

But, Snoopy...The F.B.I. is under the control of the executive branch of government. If Mueller went to Bush and asked, "Should we investigate this?" what answer would he get? If it were "Don't go there," do you think Mueller would say to Bush, "Mr. President, I'm sorry, but we have to go there?"

I'm old enough to remember Watergate. Archibald Cox, a special prosecutor, was fired by Nixon for not backing away when he was ordered to. Bush is identical to Nixon (and Captain Queeg of the Caine) in his paranoia toward "disloyal" subordinates. The best we could hope for from the F.B.I. is a private investigation that confirms suicide, which would be worse than no investigation at all.

We need a reporter like Bob Woodward on the case, and/or a Congressional investigation, and/or a special prosecutor with immunity from being fired.

Peg C #122 Yes, not bored yet.

I neglected to say in my post you mentioned that it also applies to rung #6 on the ladder portrayed in post #6.

The pearl harbor effect. They were planning the oil takeover but needed the pearl harbor effect again because public sentiment was alligned against war pre-911 due to the Vietnam hangover etc.

The pearl harbor effect worked quite well to allow taking the oil by force because in general the public sentiment was turned as it was in the first pearl harbor.

Not only that, the fact that certain western nations were part of the coalition of "the willing" shows their governments were willing to participate based on national security concerns even tho their populace was not effected by the pearl harbor effect nearly as much as the US populace was.

Robert Lockwood Mills #126, Snoopy #124, and Fred #121

It is a federal case and that is why it is controlled by factors that are not the items of a Det. Columbo inquiry.

The controlling factors are better explained by an FBI, CIA, and administration that firmly believes the western world is in grave danger because of:

1) the lifeblood of the western world economy is oil

2) oil is, in significant degree, in the control of enemies and the degree was growing

3) the military also dies without oil

4) western security policy is founded military ideology

5) the issue could not be resolved by capitalistic (economic) means

Thus many ideologies were effected by the turn of the world. Torture is wrong but tolerated and covered up, murder is wrong but tolerated and covered up under certain circumstances.

The world Det. Columbo worked in is not the prevalent world view today. He would be frustrated and exasperated in his detective work if he took on the Lemme case with his past world view.

One of the Die Hard movies where ambassadors were getting away with murder based on sovereign and/or ambassadorial immunity is more in tune with the world view working just under the ink and between the lines of the MSM newspapers.

The map in post #6 explains many of the events better because it is a more attuned world view.

In my post #127 I meant Robert Lockwood Mills #125 instead of 126.

Hi Kira, sorry to take so long to answer about the receipt being the merchant copy rather than the customer copy. The pictures are in Brad's original story. It's still up for grabs whether that copy is the top copy or bottom copy. Note also on the ticket to the left the hours are stated as "11 to 7"

Dredd, if we argue about energy in connection with the Lemme case, we'll win the argument and lose the war. Your analysis might be entirely right, but that's for the history books to decide 50 years from now.

Right now, I want to prove that Ray Lemme was murdered. Talking about big-picture matters like oil distracts us. Lt. Columbo might have been a fictional character, but he always found a way to acknowledge extraneous issues as if he'd been satisfied, then turn around and say, "But there's just one more thing that's bothering me."

We have to keep the focus on the murder for now, not argue the political milieu which gave rise to it. The more political we sound, the greater the chance that moderate Republicans who might otherwise help will say, "This is all political."

My posting to Snoopy about the F.B.I. reflected two fears: 1) Mueller would try to please Bush by doing a whitewash job (or be fired for trying to do it right, as Nixon fired Cox in 1973), and 2) Any F.B.I. inquiry would discourage Congress from getting involved ("not to interfere" with a government agency's work).

Dredd #127 (towards bottom of post) - Wasn't the movie Lethal Weapon 2 you were thinking of? That's the one with the South African diplomats that use their "Diplomatic Immunity" to try and get away with murder & other crimes.

...Peg C said on 3/17/2005 @ 8:56pm PT...
"There is so much all-out evil/ugly here. We're living in a sewer, guys, and none of our so-called "compassionate" officials would hestitate to "flush" us...We've got to crawl out from under this obscenity and be human beings again. "
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Your post caught my eye, because reading about Ray Lemme's murder makes me feel like taking a shower, it's all so "dirty".

I am gratified that this fight is being fought, however. Could this be the "straw" that will break the "camel's back"? I hope so.

EXTRA EXTRA READ ALL ABOUT IT:

OK guys and gals. I have a brand new timeline that makes a whole heck of a lot of pieces fit. Bear with me, and study for holes:

The 2 receipts are off. One says 6/29 6.x4pm and the other says 6/30 6.54a. I submit that the first receipt machine is 12 hours off. That Ray checked in at around 6.54a on 6/30. The receipt on the left in the photo shows a zero balance. These two documents are reporting the same transaction in different formats. Pretty typical except time is off by exactly 12 hours on the one.

New scenario

6/30 MONDAY
==========
5.15a Lemme leaves home
6.15a Lemme calls boss, something came up, late
6.54a Lemme checks into hotel, staff say must leave early since checked in early. 1.5 hrs since he left home.
8.10a Lemme writes note
11.00a Maids do not come clean because he just checked in and has do not disturb
12.34p Watch stops
1.30p Lemme misses meeting without calling
3.00p Car is named as being here at 3p on Monday
Bed not slept in

7/30 TUESDAY
==========

11.05a Maid comes to clean, can't get in, customer still there
1.06p Police arrive, body dead for about 17 hours which is enough time for rigor mortis (8-36hrs)

So, it NOW it looks like the PERFECT suicide instead of a bunch of loser hitmen. It must go pretty high.

And, all else remains the same. The missing evidence, photos that weren't really destroyed, bruise on neck. Pills in the room, etc. etc. etc.

Ok, I've finished my timeline. I feel better.

Fred # 121
I think you are going the wrong way on these
seemingly 'conflicts'.

The form-unsigned- dated 6/29/03 is a room reservation form. Could have been by a phone in request.

Form 2 -signed- is a credit card payment form commonly used. Generated at 6/30/03 at 6:54 a.m. and signed and a key given for the room which Lemme went to and 'never' left.

The next day 7/01/03 Vallait tried to gain enterence and could not. She stated she told the occupant 'you got here early yesterday and you have to leave early'.

There is no conflict here.

But there is the question, for me. did Lemme signed himself in or did someone pretending to be Lemme sign him in?

Does anyone know how to get a copy of Ray Lemme's signature? To compare it with the credit card receipt.

To be more clear---Vallait made the statement through the partially opened door and did not see the occupant and got no responce.

Does anyone have a history of Ann Marie?

#133 - I follow you and agree it makes perfect sense EXCEPT for -

#134 - That's what I think, it was a call-in reservation made on the 29th for the next day. Arranging for an early check-in for early the next morning wouldn't be unheard of, especially in a "no-tell motel"

#133 The timeline makes sense, especially if he was supposed to meet someone for information, and they told him to go to the hotel in Valdosta where it's almost guaranteed neither he nor his vehicle would be seen by anyone who knew him. "No-tell motels" are used to clandestine meetings, they wouldn't ask for a lot of information as long as the bill was paid, and it looks like he pre-paid when he checked in.

When the manager said he "didn't check out", she might have meant that although he signed the credit card receipt, he didn't return the key card - so where is the key card?

I don't think the police even mentioned it at all in the report, did they?

For Miss P: We're still left with the $65 question (inflation-adjusted): "Why would Ray Lemme have gone to Valdosta to kill himself?" Your theory fits the check-in/check-out timeline, but doesn't explain motive.

One explanation consistent with suicide: Lemme was a compulsive gambler with huge debts. He drove to Valdosta to negotiate with his bookie; the bookie said. "No, I want all the money by tonight or else." Ray killed himself, knowing 1) bookie couldn't collect a gambling debt from his estate, 2) his daughter's wedding could now be paid for.

Alternate explanation consistent with suicide. He agreed to meet an informant regarding the D.O.T. investigation. The person he met didn't provide the information he needed, instead said, "People at the D.O.T. know about your problem (perversion?) and are going to expose you if you don't back off." He couldn't end the investigation without arousing suspicion (after having told Curtis he was close to cracking the case), so he took the easy way out.

Every other answer to "Why did he go there" points to murder and murder only, whether according to your theory or not.

I dismiss the compulsive gambling/suicide notion on several grounds. 1) There was no point in renting a motel room to meet with a bookie, especially if he were broke. 2) It isn't likely he'd have dealt with someone that far away; there are plenty of people in Tallahassee handling bets. 3) He wouldn't have told Curtis he was looking forward to his daughter's wedding if he was worried about whether he could pay for it.

The blackmail theory fails, too. An informant in a Florida D.O.T. case wouldn't be likely to ask Lemme to meet him 80 miles away, out of state, in a fleabag motel. Why drive that far, and why rent a room when they could have sat in a booth in a diner on the road somewhere? If his bosses knew Lemme had been a pervert or had some embarrassing addiction he could be blackmailed over, they would have had grounds to simply fire him, much earlier, before he got close to cracking the case.

If any other devil's advocate out there has a rationale for Lemme's having killed himself at the place he supposedly did, according to any timeline, I'd be interested in hearing it. If we can rule out all suicide scenarios consistent with the evidence, murder is the only thing left.

Yes, the new timeline explains all the loose ends and that leaves us free to move up from there to motive, means, opportunity.

1. Wouldn't Mr. Lemme's brother be able to find out about Ray's Sunday timeline? What time was he home on Sunday evening? Ray would have to be missing from home at least from 5pm until 8pm (that's just a fast drive down, register & back home.)

2. Ray paid by credit card on the check-in receipt. DID he pay IN PERSON or by phone?

3. Has anyone noticed on the check-in bill (copy on Unrestricted Warfare - Insider Mag. site) that Lemme's car tag number is "penciled" in? At the bottom of receipt: US 5700

4. What does /11 to 7 mean on the bill?

Aaack - bold - I try to fix...

Did I?

Working on Georgia Connection:

This may be nothing, but...with this unusual name...

Yang attorney Michael A. O'Quinn, Feeney's former law partner.

"Adam Smith covered the Curtis story in The St. Petersburg Times last Sunday. But while including a response from YEI's "outside general counsel", Michael A. O'Quinn, on the matter, Smith failed to note that O'Quinn was Feeney's old lawpartner for years in Florida and that there was no evidence for O'Quinn's "disgruntled employee" charge which was later dropped in YEI's full statement. Smith is a decent columnist, but dropped the ball on that matter! Smith can be politely informed about this important oversight at adam@sptimes.com"

(Don't know if this is the same man - but...)

Could this be the same Michael A. O’Quinn, lawyer for Yang (YEI)?
Michael A. O'Quinn

21 Sims St.
McDonough, Georgia 30253
United States of America

Tel: (770) 898-0333
Fax: (770) 898-0330
Consulting Practice: All States

Some information on the Knights Inn. Looks like it's very close to an airport.

http://www.knightsinn.co...d=06699&brandInfo=KG

Does Huddle House serve coffee To Go in red cups?

If it was the same O'Quinn, that name could have been used as a "lure."

RLM: I believe Noxin was in no position to fire old Archy, his atty (jimbo. where are ya?) gen'l had to do it - hence the heroic goings-on on that Saturday night...

Red Coffee cup questions (looking at Knights Inn page supplied by Miss Persistent):

Did any of these (at the time) use Red Cups?
Coffee in Lobby (of motel)
Denny's
Huddle House
Convenience store (as per VPD report)
Al Toreo
Applebee's
Austin's Steakhouse
Cracker Barrel

Which ones would be open at 6:30 am?

Knights Inn has coffee in the lobby (according to their website.

The O'Quinn connection is interesting.

Oh well - the O'Quinn lead looks to be out of the question:

I found Michael O'Quinn as County Attorney of Henry Co. (McDonough) in 2001. That conflicts with info on YEI's attorney O'Quinn.

Feeney was a partner in the law firm (as per Bradblog - YEI's attorney Michael A. O'Quinn of "Fowler and O'Quinn P.A."

"Feeney worked at the law firm with O'Quinn until 2002, when he resigned after being elected to Congress."

Sorry - must be 2 different people with the same unusual name.

Czaragorn: My point is that any investigation that falls within the purview of the executive branch is tainted...the F.B.I. won't do it, except on Bush's terms, and the C.I.A. is too secret by definition.

The exception would be a special prosecutor who can't be fired (like Peter Fitzgerald in the Plame leak case).

I'd settle for that, but Gonzales would have to appoint him first, and that isn't likely. I'd prefer Sam Ervin-type hearings, which won't happen with the G.O.P. in charge, or a Woodward/Bernstein-type expose, which might require a Deep Throat again.

If "60 Minutes" wants to redeem its reputation, I can't think of a better story to do it with. According to an article in the New York Times the day after Dan Rather retired, he was staying on as a reporter and planning a governement expose (no specifics given). There's hope.

Interesting to go back & read the Insider Magazine notes again (lots to absorb):

"A major part of the Insider's investigation was carried out in Lowndes and Echols counties in and around Valdosta, Georgia and stemmed in part from an on-going illegal alien smuggling operation in Bay County, Florida.

The Bay County operation was part of our story "License To Steal", in the Fall 2003 print edition of Emerald Coast Insider Magazine, in which we directly linked White House transition team member William Harrison, Jr. to Big Wheel Recycling and Aztec Environmental of Panama City, Florida."

Here's the "White Paper" .pdf file which gives the information re: William Harrison, Jr.

Big Wheel Recycling

Here's an excellent article with other links:
Company's Directors Convicted of Fraud in Alabama

"The tangled legal web of Big Wheel reached Florida in the form of one powerful attorney and one prominent businessman, both with close ties to the Jeb Bush Administration. For six months following the convictions of directors of Big Wheel in Alabama (January to July 2003), local attorneys William Harrison, Jr. and Randall McElheney were directors of the Florida company, Big Wheel Recycling of Florida. The latter company now owns the property upon which the landfill is operated."

Ethel the Blog

This was posted on Ethel the Blog on 10/5/01:

ECONOMIC STIMULUS OR MORE PORK FOR DONORS?

Bush visited New York City yesterday for the second time since the Sept. 11 attacks on the Pentagon and the World Trade Center.

After meeting privately with top CEOs, including J.P. Morgan's William Harrison Jr., Kenneth I. Chenualt of American Express and AT&T's C. Michael Armstrong, Bush emerged to announce the need for a further $65 billion to $75 billion in emergency monies to prop up an economy that seems to have lost its legs.

Regarding the VPD CALEA accreditation - read this and then tell me they deserve their award:

Elected Officials not concerned about local citizens!
by George Rhynes

INFORMATION/QUESTIONS IN PART PRESENTED TO COUNTY OFFICIALS

Here in Lowndes County Georgia---where are the government of the people, by the people, and for the people.

On 26 August 2003, I stood before the Lowndes County Board of Commissioners with Valdosta Daily Times Reporter present on behalf of eleven (11), plus American Citizen (PASSION ENTITLED), incarcerated inmates in the Lowndes County Jail. They asked me to present their concerns to their Elected Officials for help and relief!

I presented questions, copies of letters, notarized statements of alleged inhumane, unsanitary, and abusive conditions (See Valdosta Daily Times, dated 29 July 2003, and denial of their Constitutional Rights see (Civil Action # 89-54-1, VAL, U.S. District Court of Middle Georgia Division Valdosta District in 1989).

They also mentioned an incident involving an alleged fire arm being swept under the rug. However, as of this date their elected officials have yet to address their complaints.

In my opinion the questions asked should be of interest to every concerned citizen in Lowndes County, State of Georgia and others who are concerned about protecting citizens Constitutional Rights.

QUESTIONS TO LOWNDES COUNTY BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS: (26 August 2003)

1. When was a complete Staffing Analysis of the Jail conducted by the Department of Community Affairs or the Georgia Sheriffs Association?

2. When it is determined that citizens being held in the Lowndes County Jail Constitutional Rights are being violated who ensures that corrections be made? WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR COMPLYING WITH A JUDGE’S COURT ORDER AND CONCENT DEGREE?

3. Does the State of Georgia inspect the Lowndes County Jail? If so, when was the last in-depth inspection done? What was the rating? Who performed the inspection? Is it open for public review? If so, where in Lowndes County can copies be obtained?

4. Since repeated complaints of abuse and mistreatment at the Lowndes County Jail. Have any type of survey been conducted by questioning the entire population of jailed inmates? (To ensure that inmates Constitutional and State Rights are not still being violated as they were in 1989 Ref: Civil Action 89-54-1, VAL U.S. District Court of Middle Georgia).

5. What has the Lowndes County Board of Commissioners or Lowndes County Grand Jury done to ensure that the safety and well being of inmates are in compliance with State, Federal and local Law?

6. Who performs (OVERSIGHT REVIEW); on the Lowndes County Sheriffs Department to insure inmates complaints are adequately investigated/listened to IAW, Federal, State, and Local Law and procedures if applicable? And are citizens being abused because they used the established Complaint System? Has any type survey been conducted to insure complaints are properly reviewed and acted upon until resolved? Who is the oversight person who ensures the effectiveness of the system?

7. How often if ever, is the Medical Staff inspected on their competence and professionalism, and by whom?

8. Is “The Lowndes County Law Enforcement Policy and Procedure Manual” kept up to date? And when was the last time it was reviewed by the State---if required? In what location are the manual kept? And what procedures are required for a citizen to review the manual?

9. On 29 July 2003, it was reported in the Valdosta Daily Times that there was approximately 30 plus discrepancies. This was reported by an employee at the Lowndes County Jail. Other correspondence received from various (local) organizations, family members, present, and former inmates, and others, totaling over 70 documented discrepancies. HOW COULD THESE DISCREPANCIES REAL OR PERCEIVED EXISTS IN 2004? SINCE OUR MOST RECENT “LOWNDES COUNTY GRAND JURY,” GAVE A CLEAN BILL OF HEALTH TO THE FACILITY---AS REPORTED IN THE VALDOSTA DAILY TIMES?

10. What individual if any is responsible for ensuring that all members of the Lowndes County Grand Jury are properly educated, trained, and given pertinent checklist for their Annual Tours of the Jail---if required? In addition, who signs off whether or not Federal, State or Local Laws are being complied with?

11. Request a written reply to this letter, and since some of these inmates is American Veterans. What will you do to help resolve inmate’s problems perceived or real?

12. These are valid questions that every American Citizen should expect their elected officials to answer, and thank God for our freedoms!

PS. The Valdosta Daily Times never posted a word concerning my presentation on behalf of inmates who requested my help in writing. Although, this was done in public---at the Lowndes County Board of Commissioners Meeting!

This is a bit OT, but not too much:

Check out Harry Reid Warns Republicans: Hands Off the Internet. Let Freedom of Speech Thrive. (.pdf file)

Robert Lockwood Mills #130 Well you keep calling it a murder when it is officially a suicide.

That is bound to do some political damage to the movement for re-opening the case too. Why do we think we are more capable than trained detectives who teach criminal investigation in colleges?

And to "prove murder" you have shown that the inside nite latch could be locked from the outside.

Even this piece of "evidence" is based on Clint Curtis' book who is an interested party, and therefore in the eyes of the judicial system, less reliable than a disinterested third party.

That is like calling a person a bank robber because they walked past a bank with a gun hidden in their coat because they could have robbed the bank cause they were there and had a gun.

Could have will not get it. To have evidence strong enough one needs to have someone testifying that they did lock the door from the outside or someone who overheard the perpetrators talking about doing it.

The case is not as strong as the case against Robert Blake but he was acquitted of murder.

What I am saying is that proceeding as if murder has been proven is very unprofessional and will not get any more mileage from serious people considering the case than looking for motivation elsewhere ("who would have benefitted and why"). It is just as negative.

There simply is no proof of murder that would hold up in court, and no prosecutor would take the case. Who would a prosecutor prosecute?

There is just reasonable suspicion. Reasonable suspicion is better than just plain suspicion but is not the stuff of murder prosecutions. It is not something to be used in matter-of-fact statements.

It is still possible Lemme committed suicide under the current facts, even tho they evoke reasonable suspicion otherwise.

It was reasonable to prosecute Robert Blake but that was not enough to prove murder. And actually the case against Blake was stronger than this one.

There is no one named in the old thread nor this one, no one even known by name as a murder suspect even.

That is not something that commands great respect in the eyes of a jury weighing murder allegations.

Fred #131 I think you are right about the name of the movie.

RLM #137

"If any other devil's advocate out there has a rationale for Lemme's having killed himself at the place he supposedly did, according to any timeline, I'd be interested in hearing it. If we can rule out all suicide scenarios consistent with the evidence, murder is the only thing left."

Come on RLM, you know you do not believe there is any possibility of it being a suicide so your playing "devil's advocate" (as the name implies) is biased.

You have simply ruled it out in your mind period, and would not consider it any other way.

So you should dispense with the charade of giving the facts equal treatment. Just call it your final answer and be done with it like the VPD did.

Otherwise you are in exactly the same camp as those professionals who you are criticizing so harshly.

There are many valid and plausible reasons for suicide and many valid and plausible non-reasons for suicide.

Suicide is not rational and using rational thinking to analyze it misses the mark.

Crazy people commit suicide ... mentally or emotionally unstable people ... so to use rational analysis such as "they would not drive 80 miles" or "they would not rent a flea-bag motel" or "they would have slept in the bed" or "they would have done every single thing properly" is to apply the very things a stable person would do to an unstable person.

Suicide can be done on the spur of the moment or after long term planning or medium term planning.

It is not a promising technique to dismiss a set of facts by first assuming the individual was stable at the time ... NO ONE who commits suicide is stable at the time of the suicide.

The question is when and how did they become unstable, and unstable enough to commit suicide.

On the facts of record in this case there is not enough evidence to absolutely rule out or rule in suicide or murder.

So, one side is biased toward murder and the other side is biased toward suicide.

This is not good. What is needed is enough evidence to present to a grand jury for an indictment.

So far that level has not been reached. The level that has been reached is the "a reasonable person could believe either way" level.

And remember, a reasonable person can be negligent and do a better job sometimes and a worse job at other times. Reasonable is a state of mind not a state of absolute job performance every time.

I can speak for myself, Dredd. I find your last two postings presumptuous and rude, frankly. We have never met nor spoken with each other, and you are in no position to tell anyone what I really think. What I say here IS IN FACT WHAT I THINK.

I have stated that I am not competent to judge forensic evidence. I have also said on several occasions that the willingness of the Valdosta P.D. to shut off its reopened investigation is a smoking gun in this case. Whether you and I see the actual evidence the same way is unimportant, because we are not going to be conducting any investigation.

What is important is that the Florida D.O.T. must explain why they asked (or demanded) the second
investigation be dropped. That is an appropriate starting point for a Congressional hearing, and that is the first question an investigative reporter should ask, provided one can be persuaded to intervene. Whatever the evidence suggests in this case, there is no excuse (other than possibly to save Mary Ann Lemme from embarrassment if her husband had committed suicide because of a personal problem) for the Florida D.O.T. to interfere in an out-of-state police inquiry. Period!

To suggest that we have to assemble enough evidence to present to a grand jury before we can arrive at judgments is just plain silly. We are not district attorneys. We don't have to agree on every item of evidence, nor do I have to accept your analysis of what is or isn't rational conduct. We are not bound by presumption of innocence or other shibboleths of criminal justice.

My concern at the moment (it might not be yours) is to persuade people in a position of power to investigate Ray Lemme's death. If you have a different set of priorities, that's fine...but don't presume to tell me or anyone else what I think.

OK, I hope those interested have read the timeline I came up with in Post #133. (Don’t read this post unless you have.) All the little "timing" loose ends were tied with that theory - based on facts put together from witnesses and evidence. Anyway, that's how I see it happening (no one has to agree though!)

Lemme leaves for work early (per wife). Affidavit says Lemme had to…(crossed out) something came up. This was on a message from Clift to Lemme’s wife that Clift said he received at 6.15a.)

So now, Lemme checks in at 6.54am on Monday. He rents the room for a day, paid right then and there. He grabs a cup of coffee while in the lobby. Picture on the bath counter shows a white (bill) and a yellow (receipt) Balance -0- on the bill and $ charged to his card. Billing system off by 12 hrs.

Then, he goes and puts his wallet in the car. Why? Maybe because he knows what he's about to do and wants to keep his wallet safe, knowing there will be strangers in the room. Or maybe because someone tells him to so it would look that way.

Belongings on counter:
Glasses (on face)
Glasses case (in shirt pocket)
Keys (in pants pocket)
Receipts (in shirt pocket)
Pill container (in pants pocket)
Watch (on wrist)
Tie (on neck)
Comb (back pants pocket)
Money clip with $5 under the comb (in pants pocket)
2 dimes (in pants pocket)
1 colorful object to the left of glass lenses
Water

So, in his hands he has: Water and coffee.

Then, among his belongings, he has only $5.20 in cash from his pockets. Why, on a Monday , would a man only have $5.20 in his pocket? Maybe he knows what he's about to do, or what? Blank here.

That’s where I am. Slow as a tortoise.

Cole #134 & Dredd #157,

I think the main point that we have all demonstrated in these 900+ posts is that the Valdosta Police botched the investigation. Whether they did it on purpose, or they are just incompetant is left for debate.

But the end result is that nobody, not us, not Insider, not Brad, nobody can make any sound conclusions concerning what the "6/29/03" and "6/30/03" receipts even mean.

Is one a check in receipt on 6/29 and the other a check out on 6/30?

Or are the dates a computer mistake and actually supposed to read 6/30 and 7/1, respectfully? If the dates are wrong, how can we be sure of the times?

Is one a "reservation" receipt on 6/29 and the other a check in on 6/30?

Everyone has their own theory as to which scenario it could be, but no one, not even the Police department has actual confirmed evidence to back these theories up.

So the argument of whether this is a case of suicide or murder is moot. The argument of whether this case should remain open or closed is, however, perfectly valid.

The investigators closed this case as a suicide on 7/2/03 based on circumstantial evidence and unconfirmed/conflicting facts. If this were any other crime, and they tried to prosecute Lemme with this kind of shoddy investigation filled with more holes than swiss cheese, the judge would not only dismiss the case, but she would also probably lecture the Police Chief about it as well.

The case should never have been closed in the first place. The Police never finished their jobs.

Whoops, add to the list:

In his hands he has:

Water
Coffee
Black appointment book
"Empty" manilla folder
Pad not written on

If the wallet was safer in the car, why bring the black book in?

MP #161

He had 6 things in his hands:
1 Coffee,
1 Water,
1 Key card (to get into the room),
1 Dayplanner,
1 manilla envelope (blank, unused),
1 yellow pad of paper (unused)

Things that make you go "hmmm..."

Oh, MP, you just said that....sorry!

re. #133 timeline

the stopped watch also suggests that Mr. Lemme died on the 30th, not the 1st. If he'd died on the 1st, the watch (either self-winding or wound by hand on the 30th) would most likely have still been running.

Hi Fred #164-5, we can't rule out a trip to the car for the book and pad - or he had those on him when he checked in and got the water from the car. But either way, the list kind of helps to see things as they were. That he wasn't carrying luggage, no overnight bag, no toothbrush. Just a couple of ordinary things that he would have had with or mostly "on" him.

Billy #166 , right, also, if he'd died on the 1st there would only be 5 or so hours for rigor mortis to set in and that's not enough. The new timeline fits with the rigor mortis (and everything else, I think, until someone comes up with something better anyway:).

But, it's a bit odd to bring the black book with a manilla envelope and pad of paper into the room. Maybe he wasn't sure how he was going to write the note. Anyway, this is the point at which we can begin to suspect malfeasance, if it exists. Maybe he wanted to write a long note, thought better of it, and just used the black book.

Oh, and I think the shower curtain was pulled somewhat because I think he turned the shower water on for awhile (as described in a previous post).

Still, I'm not convinced it was suicide. Just trying very hard to go step by step.

By the way, I'm a believer in fate. The watch stopping (you'd think he'd have wound it that morning) and the one of two machines where the time malfunctioned, draws attention. The fate part is that attention is drawn.

What makes the story important (to me now) is whether or not Lemme had a "reason" to commit suicide. See, the slicing of the arm is a sign of self-punishment, but when done regularly is also sometimes considered a means of controlling one's "out of control" pain. It'll take some time to sort. But the bottom line is that there would have been SOME source for that pain.

For starters: It could very well be that he'd discovered some things that were beyond his ability to cope:

"According to its definition, PTSD may result when a person suffers an event or situation that is outside the range of normal experience, exceeds the individual’s perceived ability to meet its demands, and poses a serious threat to the loss of life.

"Suicidal people meet the formal criteria for PTSD. Severe and prolonged suicidal pain is not something that most people suffer. People in suicidal crises feel that they are at the breaking point of what they can cope with. "

http://www.metanoia.org/suicide/ptsd.htm

Do you all suppose we might put out our energy to finding out how and why the photos where released?
They gave us the clue-so if whoever you are,might be reading this -time for clue #2.

The hired murderer was "brought in" from elsewhere to murder Lemme (as opposed to a local person who may talk) (like the election machine hackers flown in from abroad). The murderer was to make it look like a suicide. The motel location was chosen for a variety of reasons, one being to facilitate the faked suicide.

The murderer was brought in from out of town (or country) and secured the room on the 29th. He couldn't sleep in the bed because forensics could possibly determine that more than one person stayed in the room. The airport nearby is interesting. Is there anyway to find out if any private planes flew in/out on the 28th, 29th, 30th, 1st connected to the corrupt ladder "all the way to the top"? What commercial flights took place during that time period?

The motel was a convenient starting/finishing location for the murderer and his employers. The murderer was provided with Lemme credit card number. The murderer checked into the motel and was seen by one or more of the motel employees; Lemme was not seen by any of them. They saw only one man briefly.

Lemme left home early to meet someone or do something specific - it was a trap. Lemme took his wallet out of his pocket and put it in his vehicle's glove compartment as a matter of comfort and habit. The murderer had the pad brought into the motel room and forced Lemme to write the suicide note. He threatened Lemme's family. The murderer checked the diary to see if Lemme had written what he was doing so early on Monday morning, when in fact he was meeting/getting kidnapped by his murderer. Since no paperwork, evidence, or files have come to light concerning Mr. Lemme's comments to Curtis, it seems it was an inside job (FDOT) - they had all his "evidence" - they just needed to get rid of Lemme.

Would that honest lady Georgalis be interested in speaking "off the record" in the interests of justice but with concern for her own safety?

What happened to Clift? How long was he with the FDOT? Doesn't his absence now raise a red flag? Did he leave because he was shocked at the murder of Lemme and because he is scared?

The manila envelope could have held photos of Lemme's family for the muderer to use - or the envelope could have contained "fake evidence" to lure Lemme, etc. In any event, the murderer could have just shoved the contents into his pockets and thrown them out in some convenient garbage can on his way back to wherever he came from. Unlikely he meet his employer - guess he was paid for his services though. The manila envelope could have been dusted for fingerprints, but then the murderer probably wore gloves for the entire time.

Also, there may have been more than one murderer. But it was probably less complicated to simply drug Lemme and not have an accomplice. Maybe the murderer caught a cab or rented a car for that time period from the airport?

Dredd and RLM at or about #160 -

I am truly sorry that you two seem to have antagonized each other, because you are both coming to the same conclusions from different perspectives/world views. Dredd, yours is formal/legal. RLM, yours is instinctual and almost unfailingly accurate. You both agree!!

Dredd, you are a pedant. RLM, you are uncompromisingly pompous but perceptive. You're both quibbling about approaches to the solving of a huge crime against all of us. PLEASE unite, shake hands, and help us to erect an unassailable bulwark against insidious attempts to weaken our common resistence.

Forgive my intrusion. I'm going to bed; but I wanted to do so with a clear conscience and things off my chest.

RLM said "My concern at the moment ... is to persuade people in a position of power to investigate Ray Lemme's death."

Just wanted to say, RLM, that your grounded and well-founded insight and focus on justice for Ray Lemme has been among the best, if not the best, IMHO.

Your perceptions and experience are invaluable as well, Dredd. Really, the contributions by all on these two threads have been outstanding. (Kumbaya moment. Sorry guys.)

Clearly we're all after the same thing --- accountability, justice.

Vigilance!

American Woman #174 -

From another American Woman, thanks. We're all in this together, as disparate as we are.

RLM # 160 "I find your last two postings presumptuous and rude, frankly. We have never met nor spoken with each other, and you are in no position to tell anyone what I really think. What I say here IS IN FACT WHAT I THINK."

Find what you like. I was in reference to what you have in fact said:

"an amateur sleuth can almost figure this case out better without even considering the crime scene ... Lemme was murdered" (#96)

"I want to prove that Ray Lemme was murdered ... We have to keep the focus on the murder (#130)"

(bold and italics added).

My post certainly not presumptious and certainly was not intended as rude. Strong perhaps, but not rude. For you to deny you have concluded the Lemme death was a murder would be a change in course.

Either way that is up to you. There is no right to a personal set of the facts. We all have the right to our opinion, but none of us owns the facts.

I note that Brad uses the term the mysterious "suicide" case of Raymond Lemme in the heading of this thread.

That is the appropriate caution at this point in time.

First, let me say, I am currently thinking he did it himself but this only supports the gravity of the case he was working on. I feel that either way, if he was murdered OR driven to suicide...the cause was the same. The case. I think it's horrendous either way you look at it.

Dredd: Re: the first link about the boy and your first question, "Here is a link to a "suicide" that just happened. What criteria would you use to determine "a reason" or not?"

Interesting topic that I coincidentally happen to be pretty well-informed about. The boy was obviously profoundly gifted (e.g. levels are moderate, highly, extremely, and profoundly). When you have a PG kid or even EG (my son) the social aspect of life can sometimes suck eggs and can be extremely lonely - at a minimum. Whereas my son has decided to "dummy down" in order to appear normal and have friends, some gifted kids don't - especially PG kids. They get teased and tortured and ostracized. Take Columbine. Their reaction was anger. This boy's reaction was interalized.

"Would you use an analysis based on what a sane person would do or not do? Why?"

In this case, I would use an analysis on what a "profoundly gifted" kid would do. We're talking probably off the charts IQ - top .1% where there are few peers. Extreme giftedness sometimes goes hand in hand with OCD, or depression, or ADHD, or GAD. I would be surprised if he didn't have one of those. That he was homeschooled is a flag that he didn't fit in. Gifted kids are awesome at compensating for their vulnerabilities. They are also perfectionistic. They are sponges to information and to emotion - that's a lot to bear when the emotional age is "on grade level" and the intellect and ability to perceive problems or issues is light years ahead. Coping with adult issues with a teen emotional IQ is not easy.

Well, Jamison makes the point that many suicides have a history of mental illness or depression. True. But some do not. If Lemme had a history of either, his reserve status may have been in question and his wife would probably have mentioned it - along with the sister and brother. I have a reservist friend, I can ask if they use any psychological instrumentation as part of their participation.

I also know that traumatic events can cause severe depression and those traumatic events can happen at any time in a persons life. Think of what happens when a loved one dies. You don't have to have had a history of mental illness or depression in order to become severely depressed for a while. And sometimes, to have had one such occurance leaves a person more vulnerable to another occurance down the road.

That Lemme wasn't on antidepressants also helps me to think something overwhelming may have been going on in his life, and that is pretty much backed up as a fact in this particular case. What would depress him more than to find out a trusted person was siding with the bad guys? Or to have had a threat made against his family.

Lemme also seemed to like control - just by the very specific arrangement of things. If the investigation was continually leaving him feeling out of control, it could probably bug him because it seems a vulnerability of his (again backed up by fact - the pictures). FDOT isn't the same as FBI or CIA, it seems FDOT just did a lot of little penny pinching or favoratism cases. But there does seem to be a branch in FDOT giving contracts away to friends.

So, to sum it up Dredd, the basis for analysis that *I* would use in any suicide case would be to look only at the "baseline reality" for that particular individual. Not how the individual compares to any other individual or what statistics there are out there. What they all have in common is seeing no other solution. And that requires hopelessness. (Totally different that suicide bombers - that's a brainwash.)

Perhaps the black book being brought in was his version of a "long note" (symbolism could be important as well.)

Mind you, I'm not a professional, these are my opinions only - so perhaps cum granos salos (with a grain of salt).

Peekin in before I head out...

Who was it that said, "Everybody can have their own opinion, but everybody can NOT have their own facts"?

Dredd and Robert Lockwood Mills -

From my short time here, I see both of you as intelligent and passionate men, and I feel fortunate to have made your aquaintance, however distant and limited the venue. If you were both here I'd take you to the corner ice cream parlor (we have one like the old drugstore kind) and buy you both a milkshake, just to have the chance to sit and pick your brains - I'm learning so much in here.

The job we have taken on (since those who are PAID to do it are NOT doing it) is to come up with as many facts as we can to have the case reopened. Once it is reopened, we can hope there will be enough evidence to answer the question once and for all whether Ray Lemme committed suicide, or was murdered. Ultimately it won't matter who's right or who's wrong, just that the questions are answered.

It's hard to be objective while looking at this stuff but we HAVE to try our best - if we don't, nobody will take this seriously.

Just my two cents.

Okay, I'm outta here. Y'all have a good weekend.

Oh, and Dredd, just to give an example of the importance of symbolism, the boy had stated 3 months prior to his suicide that he wanted to be an Anesthesiologist.

And who released the photos-?
And why?
Crudely put-Move on!
No intention of being Rude, but after almost 900 posts, mostly devoted to how and if the death was intentional or forced;it is time to move on
Just my two cents worth. I will check in later to see if my comments where treated with indifference or had a positive effect in coming up with ideas to solve the mystery of Ray Lemme's death.
Thanks: Peter

(I want to be clear on what my "tone" is in this post. My tone is "inquiring for discussion, calm, friendly".)

Dredd #178,

You stated, "If there was strong evidence of a murder a name of a suspect could be furnished. On the facts it simply cannot be produced.

And a suspect, I trust everyone would conclude, is fundamental for a murder investigation to enter phase two - indictment."

In general, you don't need a murder suspect in order to launch a murder investigation. All you need is a dead body. True, logic demands you need a suspect in order to indict for murder.

All we have to do in this Raymond Lemme case is illustrate that the fundamental assertions the Police made were either unconfirmed, inconclusive, or simply wrong.

The motive for murder exists in this case, without having a suspect. It's like finding uniformed Police officer floating dead in the east river. Automatically, there is motive because he is an officer, and even more so if he was in the middle of investigating a huge case that implicates powerful people.

Powerful people have money. The right amount of money can afford professional assassins that can construct a crime scene that would leave an average detective no choice but to determine "suicide". However, a really good detective would know this possibility. Knowing this would motivate a detective to look closley at all the details. Details that expose inconsistency. Inconsistency that leads to questions revealing more details.

Detective's Floyd and Spencer either didn't notice these details or willfully ignored them. We here in this forum have noticed the details. We see the inconsistencies these details lead to, and there are many of them.

I forgot to say in my comment above:

ALL the cases Raymond Lemme was active in should have AUTOMATICALLY become part of the Valdosta PD's investigation into Lemme's death.

They could have learned things in those cases that would have led them to a very different conclusion. (Suspects, motives, etc.)

With all due respect Peterpont, your post had no effect on me whatsoever, except distraction. What are you, sitting in an armchair watching some crime show unfold? No selfish interruptions from the peanut gallery please. Every last idea from every conceivable angle is important. And in between, life happens, people agree, disagree, argue, make up, proceed, all a part of life. Embrace it.

Good summation, Fred. Unfortunately, Lemme's investigative "materials" will have been hopelessly tampered with by now.

Suggestion: People who believe Lemme's death was the result of murder should converse at a new blog.

This one is being rotted by bad apples who are either victims of illogical thinking or else purveyors of bullshit.

Just my opinion, mind you.

No, let me move. I have to work on excluding suicide before I can go to murder. Just let me know when and where.

Miss Persistent #169 "... whether or not Lemme had a 'reason' to commit suicide".

Here is a link to a "suicide" that just happened. What criteria would you use to determine "a reason" or not?

Would you use an analysis based on what a sane person would do or not do? Why?

I like the quote and the analysis you furnish. Because it focuses on presures OUTSIDE Lemme that would effect what was happening INSIDE Lemme. Good post.

Peg C #175 He has his opinion that it was a murder as you do. Fine.

But he made a try to dominate the equation by concluding further that a discussion of the larger picture was unhelpful because he is so sure.

I have pointed out the fallacy I see in that approach. If there was strong evidence of a murder a name of a suspect could be furnished. On the facts it simply cannot be produced.

And a suspect, I trust everyone would conclude, is fundamental for a murder investigation to enter phase two - indictment.

But as the Robert Blake trial shows, even having a suspect and an indictment is not the end of the matter - just the beginning of seriously considering it a murder.

In the Lemme case we can't even begin ... in terms of a murder prosecution. There is no named suspect ... other than Lemme.

We must have respect for the process and the players in the process. We can criticize them but to avoid hypocrisy we must have better evidence, reasoning, and process if we do criticize.

So to talk of it matter-of-factly as a murder and then go beyond that and arrogantly conclude that any look at the political and social background is wrong is simply disingenuous and disrespectful.

I have a responsibility to point this out since the Brad Blog should project all aspects of the discussion - including the cautious position based upon what we know - not what we wish.

I have used the term "reasonable suspicion" to refer to both the suicide arguments and the murder arguments.

That is hardly rude.

Just to say I'm surprised at how few 'rotten apples' there are posting here. These threads are almost totally troll-free, and most people have tried to absorb the opinions and arguments in 900+ posts before they contribute.

I've been following this thread since it started and all in all it's an impressively serious undertaking, I see people revising their opinions, having the grace to apologise to one another when they're wrong, trying hard to substantiate their arguments and clearly labelling their wilder speculation. Productive disagreement just means that you get two suggestions instead of one, and that can't be bad.

What has emerged is a lot of good information, some undeniable, serious flaws in the police work, and some interpretations of the few known facts that fit better than the official version.

As for whether Mr. Lemme was murdered or died by his own hand, we don't know, and we can't know, because the police investigation was neither thorough nor convincing. This is precisely the point. The importance of the debate here is not that it reaches a verdict but that it sets out enough problems, questions, ambiguities and contradictions to show that a conclusive verdict can't be reached on the basis of the facts the police recorded. The police may or may not have reached the right general conclusion, but they certainly didn't uncover the truth.

What happens next will happen somewhere else, in real life - & it certainly won't involve me, I'm on a different continent. But the fact you can't solve the case on a message board doesn't mean that nothing useful got done. Good blog, good thread, & good work, it's what the interweb is for.

Here is an interesting link that shows suicides happen more often than murder (link here).

"And yet suicide is the third-leading cause of death among age 15-24 in the United States and the second-leading cause among college students. Approximately 30,500 Americans kill themselves every year. (Roughly 1,300 people each day make an attempt serious enough to require medical treatment.) By contrast there are roughly 20,000 homicides a year."

Here are some other links that show suicide can be effected by cultural and other energies:

Guarani Indians

failing physical and mental health

NOTE: the same goes for murder. There are many reasons for it: passion of the moment, greed and lust, jealosy, etc., etc.

Thanks for that post, Billy. We ARE a pretty good bunch.

I think all the contributions to this post are great. It's important that we think differently about what avenues should be pursued. Many brains are better than one, and many dark corners can be investigated, pulling "threads" together to weave a story or picture. The contributions here are from people who care about what happened to Mr. Lemme, what's happening to America. BTW, what is the name of the airport located near the motel, anyone? Many thanks. Keep on blogging. Bet the Ga. police are reading this. They may get some useful ideas and tips. God bless you all.

Now you guys see why so many of us read and so few post. I've followed this closely but I also note that the moment someone questions something, they are considered a "troll" (whatever that is).
You keep writing, I'll keep reading but rarely asking questions for fear of being "labeled".
Emma

How much money would it take for you to "turn a blind eye" ,the one thing the forces of evil have in their favour is unlimited money to push forward their agenda.
How many millions of dollars (hard cash)disappeared in Iraq lately.
The whole "war on terror" is a farce and the "Lemme" incident is just one of the battles lost by the forces of good and he was a General in the army of good soldiers trying to fight the hidden enemy of truth and justice (do you still remember them?).

Bush stole 2000 ,Bush stole 2004 ,Bush stole truth ,justice and freedom on a platform of truth ,justice and freedom .

Welcome to the New World Order where justice is a distant memory and truth is what "they" say it is !

Keep up the good fight guys ,the world is in grave danger without you.
http://www.bushbodycount.com/list.php

Sorry Miss persistence----Your tone seems more offended than your words in post #188 express.
I hope your defintion of a Peanut Gallery includes people with more experience in life than most. I do not post in near the number and rapidity of yourself and I don't mind even rereading all of the similiar posts to get to one or two that are well thought out -regardless of the direction as long as it relates to the general nature of the original post.
I had felt, that the second post was more directed to how to go about following up on some of the combined information submitted on the original bradblog topic.
So -that said I will wait for another blog to start specifically directed to action and not speculation.
Enjoy. Peter
P.S. I never watch "Crime shows" or really that much T.V. Certainly not the so called "news shows".
(See Brad's latest blog topic)

Sorry if I've offended anyone. I reacted because I don't like anyone telling me what to do. Plus, I have PMS as an excuse

Anyway, I had an eerie experience the other night that I'd like to share.

I was out to dinner with my son and noticed an older very lean man across the room staring at me the whole time. What struck me was the sheer cold-bloodedness in the blue eyes. (I'm not making this up, and reading eyes is my favorite pasttime.) I've never seen anything colder, ever, not even in the movies. Very serious, not human, no emotion, just coldness. Though it didn't relate to me, I related immediately to this case. I looked at him several times - still the same stare - kind of here and not here at the same time. Looking but having visions too. (Anyone know what I mean?).

Anyway, I suddenly found myself conjuring up the image of what a "death designer" might look and act like. I'll bet there is such a thing. I imagined that they look at you, study your behavior and demeanor over time, and think of all the kinds of ways you could be "died".

Maybe the rest of the job is left up to other planning specialists. The guy that studies you chooses whether it will be suicide, car accident, etc., and then the specialist who figure out how, an then the specialists who carry it out. The specialists who carry it out can't miss a beat...but that doesn't mean the death planners were accurate. Everybody makes mistakes you know.

So, if they studied Lemme, the "death designer" could have said that since he had a lot going on...that he just snapped. He was a reservist, serious, not the laughing sort, lots of stress. Etc. Etc. But then, the slicing...not right...even with the showering and pulling the curtain...I don't know.

And, I've studied suicide all day. While I think they pulled off the perfect "looking" one, without any errors that we can find (I do think the bill clock was off because everything incidental (non-conspiratorial e.g., maids) fits when it is), I still can't see Lemme doing it. The method was self-punishing. Who knows, maybe he did. But as we've said all along...messy, not to the point, slow, not punctual, and uncertain. That may be the error in their judgment.

I can find nothing where a somewhat compulsive person (who generally fears uncleanliness) is prone to suicide (though he probably just has military style neatness), I can find nothing about reservists except those who have been traumatized in Iraq, Vietnam, etc. So far anyway.

But if Lemme was not depressed - and according to the brother he wasn't - then I don't see how he could have done it himself. By all accounts, he seemed a normal guy.

I don't know. I've ordered Curtis' book.

Looks like it's just me and me here tonight! But for the following observations I have, I think I deserve another ding ding ding on the next post so that's ok.

Besides, why sleep when you can blog at Brad's

NEW OBSERVATIONS:

1) Lemme's wife said he left EARLY;

2) If Lemme left early AND made it to Valdosta in the minimum amount of time necessary to get straight there, then the trip was pre-arranged --- and --- he headed straight there. If he left early (as mrs. states) then no one else would known that and no one would have contacted him that early on his pager to arrange an impromtu meeting);

3) In the wife's affidavit (just a reminder) she writes that he "had to" which is crossed off and replaced with "somethings come up". In order for her to have known that he "had to" something then she would have had to have heard it from Clift either on the message left at 4 or in another phone call after that. She wouldn't otherwise have known;

3) Clift clearly only says that Lemme said "somethings come up." Therefore he is withholding KEY information from his affidavit. (The information that mrs. almost alluded to);

4) The prearranged meeting was just over the Florida line. What position would some trusted source have to be in for him/her to make a convincing argument to Lemme that he/she had to meet him just outside of Florida. An attorney?

5) Lemme is conscientious enough to tell Clift he'll be late for work but neglects to ask Clift to tell FDOT counsel that he will miss or be late to the appointment? Lemme even waits to call Clift til he thinks Clift is at the office. If Lemme was planning his own suicide wouldn't he also have asked Clift to tell Counsel that he may at least need to reschedule? I think so.

6) Maybe it was Counsel that lured him to Valdosta for the set up. And this is why Lemme didn't bother to ask Clift to tell Counsel "he had to" something.

7) Counsel calls Clift at 2pm to say Lemme didn't make it to the meeting. In other words, Lemme didn't make it to the meeting. Clift does not call Lemme's home until 4pm.

Ding ding ding ding ding!

Oh, and, this also relieves Counsel of having to act on the information that Lemme may impart in the 1.30 meeting that coincidentally is scheduled on the same day he is killed. And coincidentally is scheduled for about the same time as Curtis says the case would blow. Counsel is the one who would have to prosecute. Lemme was not a lawyer.

As for the empty manilla and pad, the pad was in the manilla and Lemme was prepared to take notes on new information that he was lured to get. He probably always took a pad to a meeting - I always do.

As for having only $5. Someone took the rest.

Hi Fred #162
It seems likely without any contrary proof that the form on the 29th is a room reservation form and the credit crd payment form on the 30th -a.m. is for the room until the next day.

The fleabag may have a 'pay in advance policy' in general or for out of state customers.

I do not want to take a "I support the police" but togive the devil its due---the body was in a locked from the inside, neat, no sign of combat, suicide note etc room, so a reasonable conclusion is suicide. And that an 'out of stater' is the deceased, and that the boss backs up the theory of suicide does not leave a lot of room for persuit.

In spite of that there were investigations noted as far as the 8th of July, at least.

A lot of the reason for doubt of suicide has been stated in this thread, and worked on by ithe contributers, such as times which do not jell, mutuality of comments in affidavites etc.

But most troubling of all--for me---is why a fleabag spot in Georgia which was arranged the day before like it was a glamour spot on a Monday? And, in spite of "LOVE" on the note and 'spoken' this choice was extremely not 'loving'. The spouce would have to take a long drive out to identify his body and a long trip back!?

Suicide or suicided? If Lemme did not sign the credit card receipt on the 30th then we go quickly to the second choice.

So---anyone have a copy of Lemme's signature to compare it?

Note that the 'LOVE' in the suicide notes are capital print and that the 'L' in Lemme on the receipt is capital script. And just for oddities it looks like the scripted 'L' in the spouce signed affidavit.

Related to #199 item #5. Clarification - Lemme could have made it back in time for the meeting --- if he thought his little meeting in Valdosta was innocent. So Lemme may not have told Clift to notify Counsel of any delay if he thought he'd be back in time. BUT, if he was planning suicide he would have been consciencious enough to do so.

Hi, Miss Persistence - How about this version of events:

Lemme told Clift/someone he had evidence and would be going to FDOT lawyer, or the FDOT lawyer told Clift/someone Lemme had an appointment to see her about something big on Monday afternoon.

Guilty parties are notified or find out. Guilty parties decide that Lemme would have to be terminated by a professional assassin (PA) before he saw FDOT lawyer, or told anyone else.

Guilty parties arrange for Lemme's credit card number to be used to reserve the Georgia motel room on Sunday (JUN 29). A MANILA ENVELOPE containing photos of Lemme was provided to the PA so he would recognize Lemme.

Lemme received a phone call or page on Sunday (JUN 29) during the day or evening requesting an "urgent" meeting, sounding legitimate. Lemme left home early on Monday morning (JUN 30).

The meeting location could have been anywhere, even his home town. It was a trap, and Lemme was kidnapped by the PA at gunpoint.

The phone call from the payphone was from the PA to Clift and/or guilty parties advising he had Lemme, or from Lemme at gunpoint saying he'd be late to slow down any checking on Lemme's whereabouts.

The PA submitted Lemme's credit card and signed the receipt after having practiced the signature, or Lemme was ordered at gunpoint to keep quiet and sign the receipt.

In the motel room, Lemme was told to sign the suicide note. If he cooperated his family would be spared. The PAD was necessary to write a suicide note.

The DIARY was checked by the PA to see if Lemme had recorded the Monday morning meeting.

Summary: The PA was hired by the guilty parties and brought in from out of town for the job, provided with photos of Lemme and told to make it look like suicide. Simple and straight forward.

P.S. After signing the suicide note, Lemme was drugged or overpowered or killed, put into the bath tub, and his arm slashed. The PA was able to EASILY lock the door from the outside to reinforce the idea of suicide.

Mrs. Lemme knows her husband was murdered. She also knows he did whatever possible to protect his family, because HE LOVED HIS FAMILY AND HE LOVED HIS WIFE.

Just for the record, my vote was for murder the first time I heard Clint Curtis talking about it.

Everything that has arisen since has strengthened that opinion, not weakened it. But, at the end of the day, it's just my impression (as it is Clint Curtis', by his inference in the interview I heard). I'm in no position to investigate it. Wish I was.

Apologies to Miss Persistent - (not persistence). Looking forward to reading more. Thanks.

Peggy, isn't the suicide note unsigned?

Hi, Bob - Okay, correction:

In the hotel room, Lemme was told to WRITE A suicide note. The PA doesn't care if he signs it, or dates it, or not. Just have Lemme write a "convincing sounding" suicide note, to spare the lives of his family.

When Lemme starts to write the suicide note, he first puts the time at 8:10. So Lemme was alive at 8:10 and tells his family for the last time that he loves them. The PA murders Lemme shortly after that.

Note on the professional assassin (PA): The job of the hired PA, in this instance, is to murder Lemme and make it look like suicide. It is not likely that the PA was told who his employers/the guilty parties are, why (the long dirty story), or to torture Lemme for infomation (for instance, information incriminating guilty parties "at the top"). The guilty parties simply want the PA to murder Lemme and get out of town, UNTIL THE NEXT JOB requiring the services of a PA.

I'm watching a Columbo rerun right now - it still sounds funny to me, all in Czech and all - and I found myself thinking about Porfiry Petrovich in Crime in Punishment (he was the very first prototype of what Columbo et al. have been refining ever since, but that's another story), who made his suspect so nervous he broke. What could make someone like Tom Feeney that nervous? How about brave crews to turn out in the streets everywhere he goes, waving placards with the pertinent questions? Does any of us know someone that brave?

It who be an idea to look back thru the motel books to see if Lemme had previous "meetings" with an informant in this motel ,dating back to the start of his "big case".
Getting a FOIA on his "pettycash/expenses" reimburstments reciepts from his office would show if he regularly did this sort of pick-up.

Item #12 of Post #6 shows how the plan includes giving power to lie and to cover up. It takes power to distort the facts into "news". And this is the power that is maintaining the neocon movement.

It is a phenomenon that is pervasive everywhere in the MSM now. The facts are viewed thru the lens of "I wish" and one hand is on one side of the balance that weighs the facts.

The hand of bias. This link shows the unending practice of the neocon movement to lie to anyone and everyone to cover up the facts ... or spin them in some way.

The power to do this comes from the power to appoint officials, and to transfer large sums of money to benefit the coalition of the coverup.

But it is alienating much of the world ... the part that previous admins took great pains to establish working relationships with.

What we want to do is be very careful with the facts so the practice is still alive after this admin of neocons has ravished the world with distortion.

Bob Bilse #206. We ALL think it's murder. But if we don't consider every fact and possibility (including real suicide) we lose credibility. It at least needs to be considered and discredited along some logical lines.

Czararagon #212, good analogy. Didn't Petrovich mainly just "look" at him like he was guilty and wait for him to incriminate himself (ala Brad's quote, give them plenty of rope...) Been a long time since I read Crime and Punishment though. I think the YEI people are the type to crack - their responses to the Clift affidavit were flimsy. And I think they are the type to save their own necks at any cost.

Peggy, I like my theory better It's simpler and points to a couple of low-ladder culprits who are more likely to crack. But parts of yours fit in.

I am firmly a believer that Lemme did not check or reserve the room on Sunday. Way too complicated, no staff or maid activities fit with that scenario.

However, the meeting Monday WAS planned, otherwise Lemme wouldn't have left early in the morning and gone straight to Valdosta.

The meeting couldn't have been "anywhere" otherwise it WOULD have been "anywhere." For some reason it HAD to be in another state but not too far.

Lemme checks himself in, still unsuspecting, and waiting for his apointment to show up. He's being watched, and they wait until he's got his stuff in the motel. Too many possiblities for error if there are a couple of thugs standing by telling him to do things that they could just expect him to do naturally.

EXCEPT for the guys who were spotted outside his room at 7.30 and again at 8.00. They probably had him sign the note for a little ahead of time just to be safe - at a time when they would already have left but not rediculously ahead of time. THOSE guys may have been the PA's. They probably killed him before he bled to death. But we won't catch them.

It nags at me that Lemme didn't pass the word to Clift that he'd miss the 1.30 meeting with Counsel.

I woke up this morning thinking that Clift had told the "death planner" that Clift was neat. They arranged everything just thus and so. Except the shoes - neat but not in a straight line and not in the closet!

Where's Snoopy? It tickles me to think Maybe he's in Valdosta...

Item #12 of Post #6 is also shown by the incredible attention given to the Schiavo matter.

Jeb Bush wanted the tube to stay in. The christian right wants the same.

The congress is now feverishly working on legislation to bring it into the federal district courts ... after the Supreme Court declined to hear the matter last week.

It had come up on a state appeal path.

They neocons have full control of the agenda of news in the MSM, the agenda in congress, and the agenda in the courts.

And guess what? The facts of the Schiavo case are being presented as what people wish those facts were ... more so than what they really are.

After all the facts depend upon the testimony of experts. Experts have testified to the matter in courts and the courts have ruled accordingly.

The neocons poo poo the experts and want to inject "their facts" into the stream and reject the determination of the experts.

If this becomes a trend - one's own version of the facts rules over all - where will it end?

What is the solution? When is the official expert based version of the facts to be respected?

This from the FDOT FY2000-2001 Planning Report:

link

"...Florida law requires that Inspectors General notify law enforcement authorities whenever a criminal law violation is believed to have occurred. Rather than merely meeting the statutory responsibility for notification, the Investigations Section proactively solicits assistance of law enforcement and prosecutorial agencies for involvement in cases that impact the Department.

"Once partnerships are established, the investigation proceeds jointly to a logical conclusion with OIG investigators and law enforcement agents working side-by-side with prosecutors. This approach is beneficial for several reasons. First, the Department itself actively pursues cases involving the protection of State Transportation Trust Fund dollars. Secondly, investigators who are familiar with functions and personnel in the Department can most effectively uncover investigative details within the Department. Thirdly, major events planned in any case, such as near-term indictments or arrests, can become known at the proper time to the Department’s senior managers before they become headlines in the press. Finally, Department managers in a position to correct weaknesses in internal processes can act promptly as a result of details uncovered as a part of a criminal investigation. As evidence of the success of partnering, this year the Investigations Section has continued to pursue cases jointly with criminal justiceagencies such as the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, and prosecutive agencies such as the United States Attorney’s Office, the Office of Statewide Prosecution for crimes such as grand theft, money laundering and organized schemes to defraud..."

Excerpts from Distribution List:
Tom Barry, Secretary
Jose Abreu, Secretary, District 6
Pamela Leslie, General Counsel
Marcia Cooke, Governor's Chief Inspector General, Attention: James Thomas

MissP #203 -

EXACTLY. I was thinking that exact same thought. The question must also be asked in conjunction: Why, if Lemme was going to commit suicide, would he leave an hour early? If the answer is that "he wanted to leave before his wife woke up, so he could avoid any questions from her", then why on God's green earth would he risk calling his boss at 6:20am when his boss could have possibly answered the phone? Why not call his bosses office at 5:20am from home? The answer is if Lemme didn't want to talk to anyone (to avoid questions) he would not have risked calling his boss's office at 6:20am. If his boss answered, then he might of asked, "What do you mean 'something's come up'? Is it a professional something or a personal something?"

Taking that, in combination with your suggestion about Lemme not "re-scheduling" the 1:30 GC appt, and the conclusion is that Lemme WAS NOT planning suicide. These behavior patterns strongly suggests that Lemme was in fact going to be late to work only because he "had to" get some info in Valdosta, but would be back in time for the 1:30pm.

The thought I woke up to this morning was this, and it has been mentioned before (Snoopy #327). Given the fact that the detectives thought it was important enough to review video tapes at the convenience store, why didn't they ask to review the tapes in the Knight's Inn front desk? This question is important, because the answers are very revealing.

As of July 2, 2003, the case was labeled "suicide" and was filed closed. Yet on July 8, 2003, Detective Spencer decides he needs to call the convenience store to ask questions. Why? To gather more evidence for a case that is already closed? It's obvious Spencer was looking for more evidence he could find to help "back up" the suicide storyline, and that evidence he was looking for concerned the razors. You see, AFTER he reviewed the video tapes (only from 6/30 & 7/1 - not 6/29 because if Lemme was spotted in Valdosta then, it would cause problems for the case) Spencer looked at the razor selection in the store. That's a safe item to look for - if he finds the same razors then Great; it supports the case. If the razors are not there - then no big deal. Detective Spencer observed that the convenience store did not sell the razors Lemme had: that's safe information.

But this is where it get's interesting. There were 2 other "new/unused" looking items found in the room. Why not ask to see if the store sold the same brand of Legal pad paper and same brand manilla envelopes found in Lemme's room? The answer is because that's a DANGEROUS inquiry.

If those 2 products were found in the store, it would provide the possibility that Lemme bought them there, which creates a problem for the suicide case. WHY would Lemme buy a manilla envelope and legal pad of paper at the convenience store next to the motel he kills himself in AND NOT USE THEM? That behavior would suggest he didn't intend to kill himself, and the fact that the detective did not choose that line of inquiry is revealing of his motivations not to jeopardize the suicide conclusion.

And finally, the most important question: If it was important enough for the detective to review videotapes at the convenience store, why wouldn't the detective ask to do the same at the Front desk in the hotel? Because that's a DANGEROUS inquiry, as well. You see, if they review the tapes at the motel, then a whole slew of problems could arise. Some possiblilties could be that Lemme doesn't show up at the times suggested by the hotel receipts - or doesn't show up at all, then it throws the suicide conclusion for a loop. More importantly, the tapes could reveal the identity of other THIRD-PARTIES that may have had involvment with Lemmes death. The fact that Detective Spencer did not choose this line of inquiry reveals his motivation, once again, of intentionally avoiding any possibility of spoiling the "suicide conclusion" by only choosing "safe lines" of inquiry.

This reminds me of Sherlock Holmes case of "The dog that did not bark". In-other-words, it's an inside job.

Everyone, have a wonderful Sunday!

And Fred, don't forget, that store did not carry the type of razor blades used in the Lemme case - so they didn't come from there. At least Spencer found that out. Maybe he's our leaker. Maybe he went on his own because he got to thinking. Maybe he's pressured not to investigate on his own.

Maybe they don't have video at the front desk and Spencer went to the next nearest place he could find.

MissP, if the detectives had asked that question concerning video at the front desk, it would have been in their notes/report. They would have noted:
1) Who they asked
2) When they asked
3) What the question was
4) What the answer was

I agree that it's useful information that Spencer discovered the answer to the razors. I'm grateful for that. But what about all the other obvious questions that should have been asked? Why weren't they asked? It's basic stuff.

I also agree that one of the possibilities is that Spencer was being pressured. That could be where the MOTIVATION came for these "safe" lines of inquiry.

What bothers me is what MOTIVATION is NOT displayed by the detectives. That should be the motivation to find the truth. I don't see that here, and that's why this case should be reopened.

I don't believe that the "inside" part of "inside job" necessarily implicates the detectives. If the detectives were a part of it, they would have made the "unsafe" inquiries but simply lied in their reports. No, it's the absence of mention in the reports that suggests they were told what lines of inquiry they could pursue. That means the "inside" part came from higher up the food chain.

MissP #220 -

I did not forget that. I wrote that in my post:

"Detective Spencer observed that the convenience store did not sell the razors Lemme had: that's safe information."

Perhaps the Attorney we are looking for (this connects fdot with real estate development):

(Rummell is Chairman of St. Joe)
"St. Joe has donated the maximum legal amount to more than 100 candidates for Cabinet and legislative posts from both parties over the past five years, with subsidiaries like Arvida often making an identical donation to the same candidates.... Rummell and his wife gave $20,000 to the Republican National Committee during the last presidential race. The attorney shepherding St. Joe's development plans in Bay County, William Harrison, co-chaired the Bush presidential campaign in the Panhandle. And St. Joe bought a one-third interest in Gov. Jeb Bush's former real estate company, the Codina Group in Miami" ...This is a quote from an article in the St. Petersburg Times on Apr 21, 2002 by CRAIG PITTMAN.
... Galloway, 8/16/02
http://www.whoseflorida.com/great_northwest.htm

And more on Harrison from Insider:

"A major part of the Insider's investigation was carried out in Lowndes and Echols counties in and around Valdosta, Georgia and stemmed in part from an on-going illegal alien smuggling operation in Bay County, Florida. The Bay County operation was part of our story "License To Steal", in the Fall 2003 print edition of Emerald Coast Insider Magazine, in which we directly linked White House transition team member William Harrison, Jr. to Big Wheel Recycling and Aztec Environmental of Panama City, Florida.

"Our story at the time centered upon apparent influence peddling by Harrison within the U.S. Marshall's Service in Washington and the dumping of toxic waste in Bay county, Florida. We were unaware that smuggling illegal aliens was involved until the FBI, EPA and Homeland Security raided Aztec and Big Wheel's offices in February 2004 at Panama City, Florida, after publication of our story."

And this:

"William Gerald Harrison, Jr. is an attorney and partner with the firm of Harrison, Rivard, Zimmerman, Bennett in Panama City, Florida. At the time that he became a director of BWRI of Florida, he was also a registered lobbyist for the St. Joe Company and a member of Governor Jeb Bush’s 1998-1999 transition team. He was also a member of President George W. Bush’s transition team in 2000-2001.

Two William Harrison's represented these people in March 2005 IN HAWAII:

CR 04-00041DAE

02:25

USA
Attorneys:
Michael K. Kawahara

(01) Yong Kim (02) Y. K. B., Inc., doing business as "Brudda's Market"
Attorneys:
(01) William Harrison (02) William Harrison

How could this NOT be father and son.

Final Pretrial Conference
CR 04-00422DAE
02:25

USA
Attorneys:
Michael Kawahara

(01) Yong Kim (02) Y.K.B., Inc. dba "Brudda's Market"
Attorneys:
(01) and (02) William Harrison Interpreter: Susan Wehrman

Final Pretrial Conference

link

And now the connection between Brudda's market and crime:

Law enforcement agents from the Drug Enforcement Agency and the Honolulu Police Department seized more than $45,000 worth of
inventory. They said the items included 849 crack pipes, 759 ice pipes, 116 digital scales, 763 butane torches and 1,002 marijuana pipes.

According to the DEA, drug paraphernalia comprise any legitimate equipment, product or material that is modified or manufactured for making, using or concealing illegal drugs. They also include bongs,
rolling papers, hitter boxes used to store and smoke marijuana, and everyday devices like pens and lipstick holders that have been modified to accommodate the use of illegal drugs.

Some of the businesses raided yesterday are: The Pump Liquor in Waipahu, Chubby's Pantry in Pearl City, Nani Mini Market in Kalihi, Brudda's Market on North School Street, Nu'uanu Liquors and Sundries
in Nu'uanu, McCully Market on McCully Street, Date Street Grocery on Date Street, and the Y.T. Market on Kapahulu Avenue.

"Most of the businesses are "mom-and-pop" type establishments. At least one is owned by a husband and wife.

"The 10 people were arrested on federal charges of selling drug paraphernalia. They were Yong C. Tanaka, 59; Seon H. Kim, 48; Yeong E. Chung, 31; Sang M. Chung, 66; Sung K. Medeiros, 55; Edwin
Medeiros, 57; Yong Kim, 55; Nan H. B. Chong, 53; Jong Y. Baik, 45; and Byung D. Hwang, 50.

"The investigation that culminated in yesterday's arrests began in September when undercover HPD officers began purchasing drug paraphernalia from businesses. During each buy, the officer had to
establish, through conversation, that the store owner or employee knew what the pipes or other products were used for.

William Gerald Harrison, Jr. sounds like a pretty interesting guy. Who called them in to represent this little mom and pop deal?

Whoops, how do you unbold?

It's interesting about the "legal pad". Was it a "legal-sized" pad, bound at the top, with lines on it. Or was it a "letter-sized" pad, bound at the top, with lines on it. I have worked in offices for many, many years, and frankly have rarely found "legal-sized" pads used. They are too cumbersome. 99% of the time, letter-sized pads were used. Are "legal-sized" pads generally used in particular industries, such as law offices, or accounting firms? What say you? What kind of pad would a "hit man" purchase? Legal size, or a cheap note book? Was the legal pad supplied to the "hit man" to practice Lemme's signature along with photos of Lemme? Was, in fact, the suicide note written in the black diary?

can ya fix the width AGAIN

Googling - Knights Inn Hotel is listed as servicing Valdosta Regional Airport. Lemme could have been meeting someone who flew in early to Valdosta Airport on Monday morning, from/thru Atlanta, or elsewhere. Can we find out what flights if any, coincide with Lemme's early departure from home to meet his contact at Valdosta Regional Airport and continue on to Knight's Inn on Monday, June 30, 2003? (Is 2003 correct?) Thanks anyone, everyone.

check rental car from airport to Knights inn for day and day after "suicide"

Other ideas: If Lemme's investigation was shut down by the FDOT, would he go "over their heads" to Washington? Is the connection to Moody's AFB? If fraud was taking place at FDOT, similar fraud could be taking place at Valdosta and other airports. Is there a common thread/persons between Yang/fraud/DOT's nationally, and Washington D.C?

RE: this link "http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/20/
Tampabay/Schiavo_ _ _Come_down__.shtml" (take out the two spaces)

The top three of the ladder mentioned in post #4 are involved in a case involving one american. That one american is not Raymond Lemme.

But this fact and the Schiavo story shows how linked the top three on that list are. How totally politically linked.

Fifteen years ago Terry Schiavo lost her brain and her consciousness. For the seven last years the courts have litigated her right to die with dignity. Her husband wants to "let her go home" and has fought to "let her go and be with the lord".

They have some traditional religious beliefs ... like the Bush family claims to have.

It reminds me of the story about the preacher who was preaching about going to heaven. He kept talking about how wonderful it was, and asking those who wanted to go to stand up and prepare to meet the Lord. Eventually he noticed a man sitting instead of standing ... in the very first row.

He stopped his frenzied preaching for a moment ... looked at the man directly ... and asked "why are you sitting down ... don't you want to go to heaven and meet the Lord"?

"Well preacher", the man replied, "I thought you were getting together a group to go right now".

And so it is. If the beliefs are religious and not political, why do they not have the faith to let the vegetative state cease and the heavenly state enter the picture?

It is political power that is at work. The top three on the ladder are acting out subconscious energies in my estimation. They subconsciously see Terri Schiavo as those they want to stay in a political vegetative state ... to keep feeding them even tho they are politically unaware, in such a vegitative state that brain dead is a fair word.

It does show how formidible they are and how formidible any movement to "open" the Lemme death matter would be. They are as dead set against opening it as they are to keep Terri Schiavo in a vegetative state.

The Lemme matter will not be touched without the utmost clear and convincing evidence IMO.

Miss Persistent #181 "First, let me say, I am currently thinking he did it himself but this only supports the gravity of the case he was working on. I feel that either way, if he was murdered OR driven to suicide...the cause was the same. The case. I think it's horrendous either way you look at it."

I think it could be either way ... IOW I don't know.

But I agree with you 100% that it does not matter.

If what he uncovered was so bad that it destroyed his faith so much that he did not want to live anymore ... as I said in the original thread ... it is as you say, just the same.

PS. Your talk on suicide (a very mysterious disease) was helpful.

Billy #192 "As for whether Mr. Lemme was murdered or died by his own hand, we don't know, and we can't know, because the police investigation was neither thorough nor convincing. This is precisely the point."

Indeed. In the original thread I pointed out and posted the Georgia law governing the VPD investigation of the Lemme death.

I also pointed out and posted, in that thread, the scholarly way to proceed in any apparent suicide case.

The VPD did not follow these procedures nor the spirit of the law very well. And now the body is said to have been cremated.

That was a key piece of evidence which should not have been destroyed.

The way the case was handled, and the nature of the investigation raises reasonable questions which we have explored in this thread and the original one.

But we dare not make the same mistake they did and conclude prematurely. We would then have no high moral ground from which to criticize them.

Emma #195 I apologize if I or any of the rest of us have intimidated you in any way.

I have tried to cultivate an environment where both sides of the Lemme death issue are presented.

I personally do not know if it was murder or if it was suicide. So I entertain both theories.

Thank you for posting.

Thanks, Dredd. So, assuming Lemme knew "the ladder", who might he speak to in Washington, if he did?

If Lemme died shortly after arriving at the motel @ 8:10 a.m., how long does it take to drive from Tallahasse to Moody's AFB? then from Moody's to the motel?

Maybe the two black men in the parking lot were the "hit men" (keep it simple), who came from Moody's AFB.

Well, I'm all out of "guestimation".

It certainly proves how EASILY a handful of criminals can take over an entire country, shut down the media, shut down criminal investigations which threaten to expose them, shut down any opposition thru bribes (and probably blackmail), shut down free and fair elections, shut down democracy, and excercise complete power over millions of people and their assets. I don't know if America will ever be free of them. What will it take?

Hey y'all - just got back from a little trip. I'll try to "unbold."

Interesting info on William Harrison cases. I'm still reading.

Well - didn't work for me. Hmm - Where's Winter Patriot??? Wish I was more of a tekkie.

Hi guys. Sorry it took me so long to get over here today. Lots of other stuff happening. doodah, doodah.

Winter Patriot - I got some help from my computer guru husband who helped me look at the source of this page & problematic html codes...

Anyway, the page width problem comes from inserting a long web address which forces the column to reformat.

The page (or column) width problem comes from post #218:

This from the FDOT FY2000-2001 Planning Report:

http://66.102.7.104/search?

This is a VERY long web addy.

So - everybody - if we post VERY long web addresses we will be screwing up the column width here.

By the way --- Hello Emma and WELCOME! Jump on in with us.

We're probably all a little frazzled. I know I've been doing this kind of stuff & research almost non-stop since June and others have been at it longer.

Thanks for reminding us to be more gracious.

Miss P - Great find on the Harrisons. And it explains why one is in FL, the other in GA, as per an earlier post, by Kira I think.

As for posting long web addresses: why not just link 'em?

Peg C #240
What I posted was Michael A. O'Quinn (the attorney for YEI) in Florida and the Michael A. O'Quinn in GA, but I have decided they are not the same person.

Was one of the William Harrison attorneys from GA?

Peg C., After I screwed everything up, I searched feverishly for the post you wrote to Kira about how to bold and unbold (I was on another mission at the time but didn't see it after a few passes and had to run out.

If you wouldn't mind, a quick lesson for me in bold/unbold AND linking (or any other helpfuls) would be awesome.

Humbly yours, Miss P.

Hi, Miss P -

I must have misremembered the names, then; it had occurred to me at the time that they might be father/son. Sorry about that.

To unbold: just begin a new post with . It wont erase the bold from previous posts (only an administrator can do that), but it will stop the steamroller from rolling on!

Links: I'll have to demonstrate this using square brackets [], but you should substitute when posting.
[a href="http://whateverlink.com"]your words[/a].

Hope that helps.

Sorry about that -

To unbold: just begin a new post with [/b] (substitute for []).

I also looked for Peg C's earlier post which gave the html for bold etc. but couldn't find it either ... anyway:

Replace square brackets with

[b] start bold [/b] end bold

[i] start italics [/i] end italics

Kira, all:

Highlight the long URL that you want to post, but don't post it here. Instead, CTRL-c to copy it then go to:

http://www.tinyurl.com

and ctrl-v to paste that. It converts huge long addresses into nice short ones.

Anybody watch Scarborough Country? Skeleton in that boy's closet from about the same time Feeney was making his Big Maneuver...

http://www.oldamericance...y.org/lori_klausutis.htm

Anybody wonder about the civil servants of Florida? Here's a guy who gave up the fight after the 2004 election, but the site has a lot of interesting archival material:
http://www2.whoseflorida...lay/supportwfl/index.php

Sheesh, I hope that one wasn't long enough to need the tinyurl treatment.

Peggy 234: It's "Moody AFB" not Moody's. On a weekday morning, the drive would take about half an hour, or a little more if you're obeying all the speed limits. There's a fairly new parkway that loops from NE to SW, and which is a tremendous help in that regard.

If you keep trying to drag the US Air Force into this on the Bad Guy side, you are going to sound like a wacked-out UFOlogist. No offense, I don't think you are one, but are you suggesting that the entire Air Force (or at least one whole AFB), of which Ray was a member, is engaged in a conspiracy of silence to cover up his assassination, or just that contract hit men would for some reason use an Air Force base as a center of operations if they happened to want to bump off an Air Force reservist, rather than, say, driving down from Atlanta or up from Florida and basing in some fleabag hotel, most probably not the one in question?

Let me suggest something, before the paranoia level gets too uncomfortable to continue: most people are relatively good and relatively honest and do their jobs with a reasonable amount of dedication, and that goes for Air Force personnel as well as teachers and doctors and telephone linemen and so forth. If you are not willing to make that assumption as a starting point, then there is no point in investigating this, nor in voting, nor in communicating with others. If that is *not* the case, then there would be no public outrage no matter what heinousness was uncovered. Sort of like the Dixon trailer in Homosassa - "what's he gone and done? Dunno, but let's not say anything when the cops ask." If you honestly think most Americans react that same way, then it's time to move. Or dig the shelter. Or whatever. But I think you know in your heart that people are confused, sometimes idiotic, and very occasionally sociopathic and depraved, but that for the most part people have basically good instincts and want to help one another and to see justice - real justice - prevail. That's why lying to oneself is such a fine art - most people need to feel justified in what they choose to do (to be Good Guys).

And thanks for the link mechanic stuff, Peg C. One of the sites on which I post more regularly detects the http:// tag and immediately hotlinks to whatever's in the continuous character string including that designator. M'y lazy!

RE: the ladders in posts #4. #6 The T. Schiavo case is now in the federal court in Tampa (link here).

A while back Brad posted a thread wondering if Henry Nee had been given special treatment (red chinese communist spy gets $100 fine for sending military electronics to china, and probation).

That thread pointed out it could be that his theory that Nee became an informant (double agent) in trade for going easy on him was valid ... OR that the federal judges there had been compromised and had gone easy on him cause they were told to.

This would have been in the Florida federal courts where Florida federal judges would have made the decisions.

Perhaps we have a clue now because these in the ladder have gone thru a desperate action in the Terri Schiavo case to get it before a Florida federal judge. They changed state rights, big brother non-interference, and long-standing common law principles going back to the founding of the nation to get their way. It is unbelievable.

These guys usually do their homework. So, they have put it before a federal judge by changing 300 or so years of law because:

1) they know how he will rule (cause they tell him how to rule)

2) this will be enough to get the wingnuts off their back cause they can blame it on a federal judge if he rules against them

Keep an eye on these events in the T. Schiavo case cause they expose the close links in the top three of the ladder ... and attach Tom DeLay to it as well.

Thanks girls Peg C. and Kira, I should be able to pretty up my posts up a bit from here on!

Peg C #244 "Links: I'll have to demonstrate this using square brackets [], but you should substitute when posting.
[a href="http://whateverlink.com"]your words[/a]."

If you do not want your links to blot out the Brad Blog page you are on when you link, do it this way:

[a href="http://whateverlink.com"] target="_blank" your words[/a]

(bold added to part that needs to be added)

This will cause the browser to open the link in a new window and your Brad Blog page and location will not be stepped on.

Peg C # 173 "Dredd, you are a pedant. RLM, you are uncompromisingly pompous but perceptive."

And Peg you are pontificating.

I found an interesting factor in the T. Schiavo case. It is a strange date ...

There is a decision in the Federal District Court, middle district, by federal judge James S. Moody, dated March 18, 2005 (link here).

He ruled against the neocons.

That was last Friday.

So was the weekend ballyhoo where congress got a burr in their saddle and changed 300 years of law in response to this decision, or in response to the Supreme Court which also denied their petition?

Why are Jeb, W, Feeney, and DeLay all in a tizzy? Have the preachers been sending them to hell in sermons or what?

What is clear is that they are thick as molasses when it comes time to stick together. The top three on the rung are political soul brothers it seems.

My post #255 has a link to a page that says a case was filed this morning (March 21, 2005). Can you believe the speed that the neocons can generate when they have a hardon issue?

The ladder in #4 and #6 is solid at the top. Bet the molasses flows all the way down to Clift.

Casolaro #254 Good points. Note also the unpresidented affairs in the T. Schiavo case which I have been highlighting here, to show how powerful the links in the ladder in post #4 and #6 are.

Poo Pooing this power and proceeding as if Det. Columbo ruled the universe without even enough evidence to generate an indictment is a bad game plan.

Look where the T. Schiavo case has gone at light speed under the will of the top three on the ladder.

They are just as dead-set against the Lemme death being re-opened. So are Det. Columbo tactics going to overpower that? No.

It will take a look at the events at the Clift level and above, and it will have to be an earthshaking event to dislodge the power that has grown and can be demonstrably shown in all its glory. And it will have to be earthshaking evidence.

If we can't see how scary this is ... and how useless some tactics and strategies are ... then guess what?

Dredd asks why we should presume ourselves to be more qualified to investigate a suspicious death (not a murder at this point, correct) than people who teach criminal detection in college (meaning Shannon Floyd).

Because her finding of suicide conflicts with Ray Lemme's timeline. It conflicts with the reasonable presumption that someone would not drive 80 miles to a fleabag motel in another state simply to kill himself. In the opinion of many on this blog (I'm not competent to say), it conflicts with the physical evidence (blood, body position, stopped watch). Because the handwriting on the suicide note (forward slanting letters, upward trending word path) suggests an optimistic person, hardly someone depressed or in pain.

But most especially because if Shannon Floyd's finding was correct, the Valdosta P.D. (especially considering its history) should have a vested interest in public acceptance of her finding. Yet they agreed to discontinue the reopened investigation, based entirely on a request or demand from someone in an out-of-state agency who has not been identified, when the decedent had been investigating high-level corruption within that very agency!

The latter point, for me, is far weightier than any individual piece of evidence, and imposes a duty on public officials to investigate separately.

OT alert: re #238 Thanks, Kira. I caught some other stuff but not that one. LOL.

Re the bolding: somebody used "begin bold" rather than "end bold" and did this at least half a dozen times in the same post. So that big bold episode came from a single comment which had about a dozen "begin bold" tags and no "end bold" tags. It would have taken about a dozen comments beginning with "end bold" to turn it all off. LOL. Or one person with special access to change that comment to what it should have been in the first place. LOL again.

I should mention one more thing: You never need to post a comment asking us to fix the width. That's the first thing I look for whenever I visit. The other thing I look for right away is runaway bold (or italics) (or both). So you don't have to ask for that to be fixed either.

I apologize for any inconvenience caused by my absence. We now return to your regularly scheduled thread.

OT ('Cause I think I've just about run out of things to say on this topic so now I'm just reading and absorbing)

Winter Patriot #261 - You've spoiled us! We're so used to your guidance, when you're not here we just go to hell in a massive handbasket!

Nah, seriously, you were missed - and not just for technical reasons *grins*

RE: Peak Oil post #6, item #2

This link shows that Congress is now officially processing PEAK OIL data.

The reality is upon us. The consideration that the western world is now facing the greatest security crisis in its history - and the ramifications for the entire security of the planet are NOT just for whackos anymore.

Wake up and smell the implications for the lies that drive the current politics and the desperation surfacing in the cover ups.

The Lemme death is a minor blip on the radar, even tho it is typical of the cover ups that will not only continue, but will increase.

Also expect T. Schiavo distractions, which are in accord with rung #12 on the ladder at post #6, to continue in frequency to aid in the cover up.

Yes, tabloid type sensationalism keeps the public eye away from the impending catastrophies that will take place as the polarizations in world politics and military blocs manifest and grow.

If we can get Curtis' vote-rigging story to blow, and the hit on Lemme re-opened, and the connections to Jeb exposed, we'll have made ENORMOUS headway.

RLM #130 "Dredd, if we argue about energy in connection with the Lemme case, we'll win the argument and lose the war. Your analysis might be entirely right, but that's for the history books to decide 50 years from now ... We have to keep the focus on the murder for now, not argue the political milieu which gave rise to it."

Here is a quote from a few days ago made by a conservative republican congressman:

"Why should they be terrified? Why should they be terrified just because we have reached the peak of oil production? Last year, China used about 30 percent more oil. India now is demanding more oil. As a matter of fact, China now is the second largest importer of oil in the world. They have passed Japan. When you look at how important oil is to our economy, you can understand the big concern if, in fact, we cannot produce oil any faster than we are producing it now and there are increasing demands, as there will be, for oil. In our country, for instance, we have a debt that we must service. It will be essentially impossible to service that debt if our economy does not continue to grow. So there are enormous potential consequences, which is why he says that these people are absolutely terrified by the phenomenon known as peak oil" (link here).

The concept of "Peak oil" is not just for wackos anymore.

RML the truth about the great crisis being covered up by the admin is beginning to leak out. In post #6 item #2 I mention this fact as a reason for the government's underlying foundation of cover up, deceit, and lies as policy. They know the reasons for the recent wars has to do with peak oil, but have lied to the public.

Many do not find government lying and this cover-up argument to be a stretch by any means.

To become wild-eyed about the Lemme death and limit ouselves to the language of the realm of Det. Columbo is the dead end tactic.

To the contrary of your argument, to show that the oil industry and corporate fascism is at work in cover-ups of the Lemme death ties it to the larger picture.

After all, what we are trying to do is show the desperate means and methods the admin and its minions will go to.

And we do this not to vindicate our own pet theories, but to get the public to understand they are on a train headed for catastrophy. And we do it in the hope it is in time to avoid the catastrophy ... if that is even possible now.

We have to work on the existing mistrust to move the flashlight or spotlight up the post #4 ladder. Beginning at Clift ... or bring it down from #1 on the post #4 ladder down to Clift.

Or both at once ... so long as we are connecting the dots.

Facts:

The Knights Inn is among the closest Valdosta motels to Tallahassee on 84, allowing Mr. Lemme to return more quickly for his afternoon appointment.

Commercial flights to VLD are to and from Atlanta only.

Regarding suicide/murder cover-up or negligence: keep in mind Perdue's hefty budget cuts, which crimped much state institutional activity peaking in 03-04. That is, autopsies aren't free and it would be reasonable to assume that guidelines for performing them would have been become stricter. Perhaps Spencer may have been looking for more evidence to justify one, a la D. Jones, but didn't know what he was dealing with or looking for at the time.

(Consider FOIA with respect to Scarborough's assistant, for whom an autopsy was performed by a notoriously corrupt ME for sake of comparison.)

Are there links between St. Joe's and YEI? While peak oil is a real issue, more realistically we should look at near term financial windfalls that will insulate the wealthy and powerful before it becomes "real" to masses.

Two congressman cover Lowndes County--R-Jack Kingston in the north half and D-Sanford Bishop in the southern half.

To connect the top (however high) of this to the bottom, it would seem as though one would have to reconstruct Lemme's case, whatever it was. The fact of the death, regardless of manner, is less important, lamentably, than the information lost when Mr. Lemme died, for this forum.

Valdosta and W?

The Washington Post Compares the Choices Bush and Kerry Made During Vietnam
Michael Dobbs and Lois Romano, in the Wash Post (Oct. 15, 2004):
It was December 1968, and the United States was in turmoil. The number of U.S. troops in Vietnam had reached a peak of half a million. Antiwar protests were paralyzing American campuses after the assassinations of Martin Luther King Jr. and Robert F. Kennedy. In Vietnam, a gangly U.S. Navy lieutenant named John F. Kerry steered his Swift boat up a river in the Mekong Delta, deep into enemy territory, witnessing firsthand a war he would soon conclude was no longer winnable. More than 8,000 miles away, in Valdosta, Ga., another son of privilege, George W. Bush, took off in a Cessna T-41 trainer, choosing to fulfill his wartime obligations stateside in the Texas Air National Guard.

target="_blank" link here

THIS is very curious:

I was just reading Christopher Hitchens' essay on Ian McEwen in the "Atlantic" when I was jolted by the following paragraph. Make of it what you will...

"This same dryness and measure is very much present in McEwen's non-fiction writing since 9/11, inaugurated by an essay in the Guardian in which he very daringly underlined the three words - "I love you" - that were most commonly used in the final messages of those trapped on the planes and in the towers, and managed, without any appeal to gross sentiment, to fashion this into a perfect, cool indictment of the murderers."

Casolaro -

Why not LINK?

I don't know what Casolaro is positing, but it isn't illumination. Please just link long addresses (and all others). It's easier and more polite.

For example:

Here is Casolaris' first referent site.

Here's the archival material he refers to on
http://www2.whoseflorida...;_blank">Florida employees.

Awesome Peg C. Awesome.

Well, the FL emplpyees didn't link, so I'll submit it again.

Great stuff.

Excellent research y'all. Sheesh - there's so much to read and so many wiggling arms to this octopus. Last night I copied about 70 pages of documents plus 2 30-page .pdf files that I need to read through again before writing a synopsis.

Anyway - Here's a link to NOW with an eye-opening discussion re: The St. Joe Company and its power in FL. *Note* toward the end of the transcript Wm. Harrison is mentioned.

Florida Panhandlers

PS --- DREDD, check your html code containing target="_blank" for an extra space or missing something or other! It's not working. Thanks!

Also - while we're waiting for Dredd to repair the html code that will allow our links to open in a new window, there's another way to do it manually:

Right-click on the provided link and select "copy shortcut". Then open a new browser window. Click on the address bar (should highlight the current address) and using "Ctrl V", paste in the "shortcut" you just copied. Press the "Enter" key and you should be taken to the correct site. Your "Bradblog" page will still be open.

PS My previous suggestion only works on the ACTIVE links we've made using html code.

Oooo - Hey! I completely missed the easiest way of all to open in a new window!!!

When you "right-click" on the active link (in our posts) you have an option to "open in a new window" !!! That's sweet - and I use it all the time, so what was I thinking?

Dredd said:
Keep an eye on these events in the T. Schiavo case cause they expose the close links in the top three of the ladder ... and attach Tom DeLay to it as well.

This also fit the pattern this Administration uses to divert attention from the REAL ISSUES ,every time things quite down a new "attention getter" appears as if "a gift from God". Karl Rove is still at work ,don't forget , its a "magicians" only rule ivert the Rubes from whats really happening.

Check out Daily KOS discussion on Schiavo:

The Politics Behind the Schiavo Story

all ']' must be converted to '>' and '[' must be converted to '

[a href="http://whateverlink.com"] target="_blank"] your words[/a]

sorry for leaving the one ']' out

One more time ...

all ']' must be converted to '>' and '[' must be converted to '

[a href="http://whateverlink.com" target="_blank"] your words[/a]

From BuzzFlash

"Leaked GOP talking points reveal Schiavo circus is a cynical political manipulation to fire up their pro-lifers. 'This is a great political issue' 3/20" --- (Direct link below):

Family Battle Turns Political

..."ABC News obtained talking points circulated among Senate Republicans explaining why they should vote to intervene in the Schiavo case. Among them, that it is an important moral issue and the 'pro-life base will be excited,' and that it is a 'great political issue --- this is a tough issue for Democrats.'

When asked about these talking points on 'Good Morning America,' DeLay said, 'I don't know where those talking points come from, and I think they're disgusting.'"

Dredd - try using your formula (just to humor me) and see if it works. TIA

Dredd, I'm trying again with your formula:

The Great Florida Northwest at WhoseFlorida

Kira #279 I use it on all my links. Here is a link to your request.

It is framed as:

[a href="https://bradblog.com/archives/00001258.htm#279" target="_blank"]a link to your request[/a].

just change the [ to and the ] to >