Bernice,... you should have,..

never sipped from that glass of kool-ade.

Party loyalty = bye-bye Democracy

Hello Despotism !!!!!!!!

Well, gee. I can't understand why people are not just delighted with our georgie! Hmmmm...could it be crap like this?...

From AmericaBlog:
'White House demanding all agencies talk about "progress in Iraq" in every speech/talk. White House keeping score of who does and doesn't.
by John in DC - 5/09/2006 02:18:00 PM

Comrade Bush needs you.

Career appointees at the Department of Agriculture were stunned last week to receive e-mailed instructions that include Bush administration "talking points" --- saying things such as "President Bush has a clear strategy for victory in Iraq" --- in every speech they give for the department.

"The President has requested that all members of his cabinet and sub-cabinet incorporate message points on the Global War on Terror into speeches, including specific examples of what each agency is doing to aid the reconstruction of Iraq," the May 2 e-mail from USDA speechwriter Heather Vaughn began....

Another attachment "contains specific examples of GWOT messages within agriculture speeches. Please use these message points as often as possible and send Harry Phillips , USDA's director of speechwriting, a weekly email summarizing the event, date and location of each speech incorporating the attached language. Your responses will be included in a weekly account sent to the White House." '

Is this why he gets along so well with Pootie-Poot?

Numbers like those, and the Democrats still cower in fear when the RNC says "go ahead, bring up NSA domestic spying and impeachment. we'd love to have that debate!"

Now is the time for them to grow some leadership.

Who will save America ?!

There is a whole lot of cleaning to be done !

What a Mess > shaking head

Oops !

I did not Vote for this Treasonous group of War Criminals !

Hopefully Democrats will grow a pair , take control
and IMPEACH !

Former professor at Harvard Business School,..
who had bu$$$h as a student,.. speaks of the experience,...

calling bu$$$h a lout,.. spoiled brat,.. and

pathological liar. Sounds like bu$$$h was not held

in high esteem there,.. winning few popularity

contests.

Old Harvard Business School professor remembers bu$$$h : link

I love watching monkeyman's numbers fall like a rock. On the other side I'm nervous about what stunt they'll pull to scare the masses and make it possible to steal another election. My gut tells me something will halppen.

Jon Stewart's guest tonight was Eric Shawn, who has a book out about reforming the UN. He talked about the need for accountability.
Reforming the UN may not be a bad idea per se, but...oops! could that have been the gigantic, looming shadow of IRONY there behind him?? Like the US has a shred of credibility left with regard to things like accountability! Just amazing.

BVAC #3:

Even though domestic spying is an egregious violation of the Constitution, they are really just trying to keep the discussion away from Iraq. That one they are really vulnerable on.

Democrats will have a hard sell to convince the general public that domestic spying is a critical issue. Most will believe the story that the government is really only looking for terrorists and law abiding citizens need not worry. And many believe that it doesn't effect them directly.

Charging into an impeachment discussion is putting the cart before the horse. Having the discussion now while Republicans are firmly in control of Congress and the "spinsters" are controlling the media would be a mistake. Without subpoena power, you wouldn't gain any ground and it would only shift the discussion into areas where they could defend themselves. They would blunt any attack and allow their damage control to operate.

Democrats should start by softening them up. Use Republican style talking points. Have a number of people begin to talk about the poll numbers reflecting how Bush is "beginning to lose the confidence of the American people" because of his "inability to deal with the Iraq situation" and questions of whether he was "dishonest about the start of our involvement there". Use additional language such as him being "powerless" to deal with it and showing "poor leadership".

After a period of time, switch to dicussions on gas prices and immigration. These are hot buttons topics. Coordinating the talking points would push his numbers well into the 20's. Continue to talk about him being "ineffective" and how "America cannot afford an incapable president". Say we need a leader that "can handle the situation in Iraq". If the numbers continue to fall, party discipline will start to break down. Especially in the run up to Nov. elections. Then start the calls for impeachment.

Unfortunately, our politics runs on perceptions. Change the perception and the political situation is likely to change.

Great coverage as usual Brad.

I don't know how to react to these poll numbers. Good..they are low. That's like saying you burn your hand when you put it in boiling water. It's not really news. Of course his poll numbers are low. His performance on every front is a disaster. But what now?

The little "hot buttons" of high gas prices, loss of "American" life and limb in Iraq, poor leadership on immigration concerns, impotency during crisis such as Katrina makes a point...but PLEASE, PLEASE don't quit reminding these knuckle headed voters that this SOB sent us in to war for no justifiable reason. He has sunken our financial future in mud so deep we'll never see our freedom from his blunders in our lifetime. He has lied again and again. Electronic voting machines are jeopardizing the democracy of our country to prevent dictatorships from taking over for the sleeping masses in the future.... on and on and on. The "hot topics" are good. They get the emotions of the people to wake up, but we also need to remember the bigger picture of this administration. We have scrapped the Geneva Convention as a means of humane warfare in the future, we have killed THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of innocent men, women and children in Iraq, we have bankrupt this nation and sold ourselves to foreign nations and the banking world, we lost whatever respect we might have had with the rest of the world over the past five years, and our civil liberties have taken a hit that may take years to recover.
I fear the terrorists...but I fear these mongers in the White House just as much, if not more. Where is OBL? Still running around thumbing his nose at us. What? What has he accomplished? A tax break for the wealthy, erosion of regulations protecting clean air/water, etc. What a damn joke.
Use the hot topics to get our attention, but remind us of the bigger, more important picture. High gas prices and immigrants not complying with registering and working as slave labor is not the big picture.

Jay #9

Looks like a reasonable approach to me!

Joan # 2 quoted:

' "...a weekly email summarizing the event, date and location of each speech incorporating the attached language. Your responses will be included in a weekly account sent to the White House." '

Looks like they're going to be graded on their ability to combine tomatoes and bombs! Or is it corn and bullets?

I read the article earlier and was amazed at the gall of this jerk - what in the world does agriculture have to do with his propaganda?

If it were to be "used" for anything it should be for good will!

"President Bush said catching a 7.5 pound fish was his best moment since becoming president. You know the sad thing, a lot of historians would agree with that." --Jay Leno

Dang,

Spam filter going crazy on me!

Jay,

The more people find out about the domestic spying issue, the more they will be sold on how serious it is. The fact that with all the administration spin, the media laziness in not thoroughly reporting on it and distortions they apply when they do, and atmosphere of fear, 45% of citizens are against the program. That is a huge number. The existence of the NSA program/NARUS/echelon brings up a lot of other issues too.

The RNC is delighted to take on the debate because they think they can spin themselves out of their mess. The people aren't buying that anymore. Bring it on.

Their only position: refusal to assert the law, refusal to hold the administration accountable. Democrats have to make it clear that the people have a choice: suffer another two years with no accountability, no plan for Iraq, no plan for border security. Or reassert the rule of law and checks and balances, and deal with the criminals accordingly.

The plan you give is good, but Democrats are not that organized. They'd never be able to pull it off. Especially considering who's at the helm. I also feel that immigration is a losing issue for them, unless there is a massive organized GOTV effort by immigrants in favor of Democrats. This may be the issue that Karl Rove uses to bring out millions of latent voters, if he isn't indicted by then.

For gas prices, they need a comprehensive plan before the Republicans beat them to it. Given the $100 rebate bullshit, they should pretty much have this one in the bag.

Accountability is #1 though. They need to assert the rule of law, not shy away from promising investigations, and make civil liberties a winning issue. Anyone with a brain knows that investigations will inevitably lead to impeachment, so there's no need to give the media soundbytes to use against them.

Prez of Constant Sorrow

I am a Prez of constant sorrow,
I seen trouble in the polls,
So bid farewell to old staff members,
Say hey to Snow, our Fox News troll.
(Say hey to Snow, their Fox News troll.)

For six long years I've been in trouble,
No pleasures in this House I've found.
See, of my job I made a muddle,
And from my woes I can't rebound.
(And from his woes he can't rebound.)

Do I say farewell to old Karl Rove?
Will Fitz the Indictor come again?
With Karl, it's been a downhill road,
See how my reputation wanes.
(See how his reputation wanes.)

He'd take revenge on his own mother,
That John McCain he'd primp and preen,
He might go pimping for my brother,
While I am polling in the teens.
(While he is polling in the teens.)

To those Repubs who shout lame duck:
And hope my sorry ass to kick.
A nasty thought for all you fucks:
If I'm impeached you're stuck with Dick.
(If he's impeached we're stuck with Dick.)

---------------------------------------
[Apologies to the Soggy Bottom Boys]

"I voted for Bush because he was a Republican." My God, what a pathetic statement. You get high marks for honesty, Ms. Davis...but an "F" for common sense. I thought Missouri was the "Show Me" state. You voted for a guy because of a party label, even though he showed you nothing?

Blind party loyalty is bad enough, but Bush isn't even a legitimate Republican. He loves Corporate America and low taxes, but true Republicans don't start wars of choice, run trillion-dollar deficits, spy on Americans illegally, manipulate intelligence, bribe journalists to write favorable stories, tprture people, and ruin America's standing in the world.

It really is too bad that as Democrats, we always have to base our strategies on perceptions that have been drilled into us over decades of corporate media control. Yes! Aside from the portions of the internet created by us, they always have controlled it. That’s a fact!

Something that has bothered me for a long time is how television portrays Americans.

How in the world could a show like The Jerry Springer Show be popular for so long, (sorry if anybody here is offended, I haven’t really seen more then a snippet here and there). It reminds me of one of those phony wrestling matches.

We’re always portrayed as being so messed up, we have to take drugs or alcohol to make it through our pathetic lives. We’re all fat and lazy and on welfare or unemployment. We always gamble and only care about sex and sports. The COPS, or the local news media always have to bust in when we screw things up so bad, there just isn’t any other option. If it weren’t for Dr. Phil, Opra or rehab, we couldn’t possibly exist.

They’re always talking about how our kids are so stupid compared to the rest of the world. I just don’t see it! I worked in the Optical retail business for 35 years and never worked with anyone who wasn’t sharp-as-a-tack!

I just hate to see Americans portrayed as people who only get upset when their social security is at risk, or gas prices go up. I think we care about what Cindy Sheehan cares about. Our children or Iraqi children being killed or crippled! Colored people floating around in New Orleans while our leaders shop and vacation! Innocent people tortured by the scores just in case they might want to hurt us!

Not being able to display our flag at the world cup! Now THAT”S symbolic!

Philo Farnsworth, inventor of the television hoped it would be used as a learning tool. Like the rest of us, he got raped by the corporations who even claimed credit for his invention until fairly recently. He banned his children from watching it, saying:

"There's nothing on it worthwhile, and we're not going to watch it in this household, and I don't want it in your intellectual diet."

He died on March 11, 1971. Hopefully they will make a movie about this incredible man someday!

I don’t think he would have cared much for Hannity, but I’ll bet he would have loved Al Gore’s “invention”!

Jay #9

Well said. That is good, wise politics, for now.

RLM #17

Your father's republicans have evidently died off, and this is the new republican dictatorship before our eyes. Your extolling of the virtues of republicans in power is nostalgic and hopeful, or perhaps wishful.

But hope does not work for what has happened, it only works for what may happen.

I think the republican dictatorship got here because republicans voted it in again and again. Democrats did not vote it in.

That is, if we believe the republicans when they say that there are no fraudy elections in America, "trust us". If there was no fraud republicans voted the republican dictatorship into power.

And if the republicans are wrong and there are fraudy elections in America, only the kool aid drinkers want to blame democrats for that republican theft.

WHERE IS JEFFIE

WHEN HE IS REALLY NEEDED?
(AND HIS BLUE DRESS)

One of the questions regularly asked when we look at the low poll ratings is "who are the 31%"?

We may have a clue. The political appointee to head HUD is said to have stated that they only give government contracts to people who like bush (link here).

So, the 31% are those republicans who are on the take, at the public money trough, and who are paid to like the regime.

Why are the polls declining? This draws incompetents and when they screw things up they take the money and run, or they are prosecuted for crimes.

As the polls go down the percentage of republicans in prison goes up.

Ah, the limbo Presidency - how low can you go?

That's the thing we HAVE to get across to the people who are staunch Republicans - these people running our country right now are NOT REAL REPUBLICANS! They are NEO-CONS - and their policies differ VERY MUCH from what the Republican party used to stand for.

I think an effective strategy before the mid-term elections would be to spell out the planks of the Republican party, compared with planks of the OLD Republican party, then a list after each plank specifying EXACTLY how that particular situation has been handled by the current administration.

Here's the best site I found for the 2004 Republican Party Platform:

GOP Platform 2004

Now HERE is the platform from 2000:

GOP Platform 2000

And, just for comparison, 1996 and 1992:

GOP Platform 1996

GOP Platform 1992

You can see how the party has changed, and how much we heard was doublespeak - and please, try not to laugh when you read the promises, especially from the last two elections. I know it's hard, but try to control yourselves.

There's so much information out there now that a lot of people shut down - I think a simple chart would get the point across.

(This after you keep reminding everyone how much we're paying for gas, and don't forget to mention Cheney's secret Energy meetings, and all the oil money that is going into the GOP - that one is THE BIGGEST hot button issue here right now.)

As an aside, speaking of neo-cons vs REAL Republicans - my dad's been a Republican all his life - but he can not STAND George W. Bush. It's kind of strange actually - for the first time in my life, I can discuss politics with my parents without the discussion turning heated.

The only difference is, they have lost hope of the situation getting any better. I haven't.

Nancy Pelosi...Stop saying we're not out to impeach him...that's pussy talk. Let Russert the jerk know that yes we'll do real investigations of his and his administrations and obviously they'll lead to impeachment since they broke laws in front of all! and let Russert and the other news people know that when they ask or insinuate that that's bad that apparently they're hinding something or feel it's OK for the executive branch to brake laws and ask them how they're viewers feel about them not giving a crap about the constitutioin....
Embrass every mother flecher that questions our plans if we get into power! Ask them why they're satisfied being screwed, used and abused and bankrupted for the gain of a few?
Embrass the media, the executive branch....say things in black and white, stop the 'being nice', just Stop it and grow balls! Do your job!

PS...Nancy the democratic party needs to say we want out of Iraq now and stand firm...(people like that firm crap...)! Stop being pussies about Iraq, we screwed up there and it's a mess and staying only makes it worse! US out of Iraq Now!

KBE #22

I note that you said don't laugh out loud ... I tried ... but alas ... it was to no avail.

This plank from the 2004 link: "Bush and Congress have been careful to protect liberties" got me. I could not stop laughing out loud.

And as to "doublespeak":

"Keep our homeland safe by taking action on multiple fronts.

Keep our homeland safe by taking action on multiple fronts."

That must be the new bush word for "stutter". It is the only think listed twice one right after the other.

Yeah, give American ports and military factories to troubled mid-east countries ... that will make us double safe in the fatherland ... oops ... er ... uh ... wink wink ... the homeland.

Lies are the main plank of this year's republican platform. They are the mindless, characterless jibberish of KKKarl Rove the puke. They gotta go or the nation is going down.

I love all these people coming out now saying they only voted for Bush because he was a Republican and they regret it.

Really? I wonder how much regret they felt back in 2003 and 2004 when millions were against Bush. Did they defend him? Did they parrot the latest Limbaugh or O'Reilly lingo and call such people traitors? Of course they did. They were willing to overlook the truth of what BUsh's policies were doing to the country and many allies and ignored it because they were supporting their TEAM before they supported reality. Suddenly, now that the tide has turned against them (and forcefully so) they all regret it. None have said, "I am part of the problem" but they do regret it.

So what makes the person in this quote (or other similar quotes) say they regret it? To regret it means they won't do it again if they can help it. BUt would somebody who puts party before reality or personality or ability to do the JOB really learn from the error of their ways?

I have my doubts. I feel no pity for these who are only seeing the light once majority support turns against them. They all thought they had a mandate in 2004 and everyone else was just a sore loser. But the fact is that I see no reason these people wouldn't vote another "bush" (either a real successor or a successor by personality/policy/spirit/etc). After all, they were willing to overlook the fact that Bush Jr. is the son of failed President Bush Sr. they were willing to overlook the fact that Bush Jr has a long histroy of failing at everything he does and being bailed out by his fathers buddies. Why would they think he'd make a good person to run an entire country?

No, these people don't regret anything except the fact their belief are blowing up in their faces. Come 2008 they will all go back to spewing right-wing speaking points about Dems being weak on terror and being "tax and spenders." They wil go back to listening to attacks over facts. They will go back to putting party ahead of reality. And in 10 years time they will look back on Bush as the second greatest President ever...second only to Reagan the Holy. Because that is what they have always done. It is inevitable when you vote party based on some naive ideal of what they stand for (ie values) over the actual qualifications of the actual person you are putting into office.

Rosencrantz - re: #26 - You wrote:

"But the fact is that I see no reason these people wouldn't vote another "bush" (either a real successor or a successor by personality/policy/spirit/etc)."

Exactly.

Bush Backs Brother Jeb For White House

Not that anyone is surprised, but expect to hear it more and more - ESPECIALLY if the neo-cons keep control of the voting machines and the White House this November.

And that would be the time to start hammering home the similarities between brothers.

BVAC #15

"The more people find out about the domestic spying issue, the more they will be sold on how serious it is."

"Anyone with a brain knows that investigations will inevitably lead to impeachment, so there's no need to give the media soundbytes to use against them."

Generally I agree with you, but here is the problem. These folks have become masters at manipulating the MSM. They understand things like news cycles and how elections affect news coverage. As we get closer to November, the news will be dominated by the elections. Unless some major bombshells are dropped on the spying/accountability issue it will not make enough head way before the Sept./Oct. timeframe.

It's kind of like approaching halftime in football. If you want to score before the half and you have a lot of yards to go, you don't keep the ball on the ground. You put the ball in the air. Going after domestic spying is like running the ball. Yes you will get yardage, but time is running out. Republicans are shifting, willing to give up short yardage (spying, Impeachment debates) to defend against long passes (Iraq, falling polls, gas, immigration). The key is to manage what is being talked about. If they lose control, then they cannot plan for possible outcomes and they really become at risk of losing power.

"Democrats have to make it clear that the people have a choice: suffer another two years with no accountability, no plan for Iraq, no plan for border security. Or reassert the rule of law and checks and balances, and deal with the criminals accordingly."
Checks and balances is another killer issue. Questions around the "signing statements" could wreak havoc if played properly, even among rank and file Republican Congressmen and Senators. No one from either side can abide this one. The president cannot openly change the rules. An aggressive challenge here could easily overcome the argument that it has been done before. The administration is wide open on this.

BVAC, your points are well taken. I don't disagree with much of what you said. I just believe the strategy needs to be different. Part of what helped Clinton to defeat Bush Sr. was to keep the focus on the economy. There were other great issues to have attacked him on. But Clinton's campaign focused on that and People responded. Today, the issue is Iraq or perhaps the signing statements. Push GWB's poll numbers further into the basement and change will start to happen.

Death, the final state of growth. The death of this republic brings home to me the 5 stages of grief described by Elisabeth Kubler-Ross. l)Denial 2) Anger 3)Bargaining 4) Depression 5) Acceptance.

I am witnessing all of these emotions as I visit various sites. I have been through all of them and finally reached acceptance. Perhaps this explains why there is no 'revolution' per say. We have lost a beloved Nation and nothing that is said or done will bring it back to life.

We are entering a new age, a new world is dawing. We are leaving a three dimensional consciousness behind and entering the fifth. The fourth is the gateway. I hope and pray that many will join in this journey to enlightment.

BTW - George Re: #16 - EXCELLENT lyrics!

So, if access to certain honest, investigative, informative internet sites/blogs becomes third-world-like, edged out in favor of the highest bidders, how will the 2008 elections come off? Wouldn't that as a strategy kind of trump all? Seems "access" control has been a favorite, global, and effective strategy of a certain party for some time now.

#15 BVAC

No, investigations will NOT lead to impeachment. Use YOUR brain.
The entire investigation of Bush & Cheney so far has been one side asking for the documents involved & Bush & cheney refusing to hand them over.
Plus, Bush & cheney can lie with no punishment during an "investigation".
Only impeachment will FORCE them to turn over documents requested & only an impeachment will find them guilty of perjury ( & jail time for it) when they lie.

#26 Rosencrantz

It's a waste of time & energy to blame each other for the situation our country is in.
The only useful thing now is to join together to fix it.

#29 Mary4

You appear to be a nursing student, judging from your Kubler-Ross reference (she came out with her stages of death & dying at least 33 years ago, glad to see you've just heard of it)--explain what the hell you mean in your last paragraph.

Jay:

I understand your point about running the ball vs. long passes, but it's also important to not give any ground on those issues by not taking a strong stance on them. The danger is two-fold: if Democrats do not properly educate the voters about issues like domestic spying and impeachment/accountability, the Republicans will capitalize on their silence. But if they do retake congress, the leadership may not feel obligated to follow up on domestic spying/impeachment... or perhaps may not feel they have a mandate to do so. That is why we, as voters, must make these demands loud and clear.

Charlene:

What I mean is that investigations under a Democratic-led congress would lead to impeachment. If the Whitehouse does not cooperate with these investigations, the only resort will be to submit an impeachment inquiry, and then full impeachment hearings.

When campaigning Democrats say they will hold 'investigations' it will be understood as a code word for impeachment. Sort of like the right-wing using 'judicial activism' as a code word for rolling back gay civil rights and making the country a theocratic state.

Mary4 #29

You can be sure that when we bring down the republican dictatorship they will take "the fifth" ... (not a fifth of kool aid).

They are already in another dimentia, so don't misunderestimate them, it is the final dimentia, where they think they have fooled the American public and that the polls are merely the MSM telling everyone bedtime stories.

Charlene: Re: #32

But that is what angers me the most. These people who claim to have regrets aren't going to stop the bi-partisanship. They put PARTY ahead of all else. These people aren't going to suddenly vote for Dems to clean up the mess that the current admin has created. They are going to simply go back to doing what they always do...bashing liberals and voting for the Republican party because they honeslty eblieve that Democrats hurt the country while Republicans fix it.

that is why I feel no pity for them. Because they are only catching on NOW to what we've been saying for years. ANd only because opinion polls have turned against them and they now know Bush is a sinking ship that they can't avoid anymore. But hey...good thing BUsh is out in a few years and a new republican can take his place.

That is the attitude these Bush voters have. Notice the quote doesn't have him saying he blames teh Republicans as a party? Notice it doesn't say he regrets voting for the Republican congress majority of Senate Majority. No...he only regrets voting for Bush...until next time. I'm sure this person also regretted voting for BUsh Sr. back in the day, only to vote the much more obviosuly imcompetant Bush Jr. into office.

Re impeachment...guys, I respectfully beg to differ.

Avoiding the impeachment issue until after the dems MAYBE take back the House is a HUGE mistake.
This issue should be firmly grasped by the horns & used as it was meant to be, as it BEGS TO BE USED---to beat the neocons over the head with, for Christ's sake!

LAWS WERE BROKEN. I know you know this but, jeez, in my humble opinion, it REALLY IS or SHOULD BE that simple!

Dems should NOT slink away from HOLDING A PERSON ACCOUNTABLE TO THE LAW.

Re just ONE impeachable offense, illegal, warrantless wiretaps: Repubs claim they are necessary to fight the "war on terror". That needs to be countered with the fact that they LIED the country into a war on the WRONG TARGET, and then IGNORED masses of credible intelligence & planning from their own people in the field.

I know these things have been said, but dems should keep repeating them & not stop.
DECEIT--INCOMPETENCE--NEEDLESS DEATH: and the PROPER response is impeachment.

And speaking of all the laws they've broken, side-stepped, re-written and danced a tango around, we're not talking about parking tickets or fellatio here (although if that second point comes up, one could certainly point out the current & so-far-all-republican "hookergate" mess or Tom Delay & his forced-abortions in the Marianas Islands or the other too-numerous-to-count repub scandals & indictments).

Anyway, impeachment is already being discussed..Arlen Specter has talked about it, although cautiously, & there've been others. States & city councils are drawing up their own impeachment resolutions, as I know you know, out of desparation & frustration with inaction from DC. It's not going to go away at this point.

Also re the wiretap program: they have provided NO or at least VERY LITTLE information to the appropriate people, as Specter has said, as to HOW exactly it is being used. We are being asked to simply trust them. But our system of government was designed to function with built-in oversight: checks & balances, not blind trust. There is NO oversight. They've simply chosen to bypass it!

So there's another pithy point that dems should hammer home relentlessly:
They are DISMANTLING OUR SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT! Jesus! That Congress is not absolutely ABLAZE with hair-on-fire panic is a DISGRACE. And THAT is far too polite a word for it.

Dems should be shouting from the goddamn ROOFTOPS that impeachment is a VALID & ESSENTIAL PART OF OUR LEGAL SYSTEM! It is NOT a dirty word. It is a SAFEGUARD. And it is the ONLY OPTION THE LAW PROVIDES to address law-breaking by elected officials.

Jay #9, I have to respectfully disagree that by talking about impeachment now, dems "wouldn't gain any ground and it would only shift the discussion into areas where they could defend themselves."

They would absolutely gain ground! Intellectually, politically, ETHICALLY! Are people not outraged by the pitiful lack of ethics in Washington? Yes! They are! Are the dems not accused every day of having no backbone? Yes! They are!

And, Jesus! We should WELCOME discussions where repubs are forced to defend INDEFENSIBLE things!!

If someone breaks into your house & wreaks havoc, you USE THE LAW to deal with those responsible. You do not decide to NOT use the APPROPRIATE LAW just because you think it might UPSET THE NEIGHBORHOOD!
That would be non-sensical. Counter-productive. And frankly, RIDICULOUS!
Not that you guys are saying that. But dems have got to STOP repeating republican nonsense like "Impeachment would be bad for the country!".

USING THE LAW APPROPRIATELY WOULD NOT BE BAD FOR THE COUNTRY!

TORTURE & RENDITION & SECRET PRISONS ARE BAD FOR THE COUNTRY!

CREATING A TERRORIST BREEDING GROUND IN IRAQ IS BAD FOR THE COUNTRY!

CLAIMING THE RIGHT TO BREAK 750 LAWS AT WILL...

NOT ARMING OUR TROOPS...

OBSCENE WAR-PROFITEERING...

NOT HAVING UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE...

IGNORING SCIENCE...

HUGE TAX BREAKS FOR PROFIT-RICH OIL COMPANIES...

GARGANTUAN DEFICITS & BEING IN HOCK TO CHINA...

DISSOLVING MORE TREATIES THAN ANY PRESIDENT IN US HISTORY...

DESTROYING THE REPUTATION OF THE UNITED STATES...

All of THAT crap IS BAD FOR THE COUNTRY!

As I said on another thread somewhere, dems need to dust off those quotes & clips from 1998 of these same hypocrites piously telling us daily how Clinton was not above the law. Are any of them doing that? They SHOULD. NON-STOP. It was true then & it's true now. NO president is above the law. No matter how many goddamn signing statements he signs.

Ex-Bush Official: 9/11 inside job

I used a simple criteria when I voted for president :

Don't Vote for THE TOTAL FUCK UP no matter how many Flags are behind him & A JERK Will SMIRK. . .

If the guy has always been a well protected unrepentant fuck-up. . . . . Then he will alway be a FUCK UP.

Bvac,

"The danger is two-fold: if Democrats do not properly educate the voters about issues like domestic spying and impeachment/accountability, the Republicans will capitalize on their silence."

Republicans are already running the show. There is no need to capitalize on anything. As long as they successfully manage the media, they can marginalize the Democrats efforts as "party politics". A voter education drive will take time and be disrupted by the November elections. It could restart and gain steam in Jan/Feb, especially if the Dems take the House.

That's why they are starting to focus on Conyers. If they lose, they want assurances that an impeachment inquiry won't start right away. A 6-9 month delay is all they need then everyone will be focusing on 2008. Impeaching the president in his last year won't happen.

The best route is to make it "hot" for GWB now. Push the numbers down and then start talking impeachment. If the Dems take the House and Conyers hangs in, real hearings would start next year.

That's a great idea I read on Big Dan's link!

We should ALL fly our American flags on our homes & where ever we can get at the public ones-- UPSIDE DOWN --to show our distress with the government & the state of everything.

Makes neighbors ask why--gives a chance to explain it to them.

#37 Joan

I know..I know....
I believe civil disobedience is the only way.
Our representatives are not representin & haven't been for a good while.
F-ck them

Ha ha Dredd that's funny - dementia. Funny at first anyway, then sad but true.

If this were the fifth dementia - what would the other 4 be? Well, wait. What dementia are we really in....anyway?

#34 BVAC

Dream on, sucker.

What colors do you see up in that rainbow world of yours?

Wake up.

The corporations/elite rich people are in control of our government totally for their own benefit with no conscience.

They have more power than the Godfather & are NOT going to give control back to the people just because we ask them to nicely.

It sucks but get over it.

Because you can't deal with what you won't admit.

To ALL:

I hope you all are ready for the 2006 election campaign.

Karl Rove has begun his strategy for keeping Republican majorities in both chambers of Congress.

I think the Demos (and we should help) need to come up with a counter strategy!!!

#36 Rosencrantz

Listen.

Stop wringin your hands over who is at fault.
Being hung up over that is an excuse to do nothing & avoid the problem.

Get off the dime.
Help us figure out how the hell to fix it.

Joan,

Many share the outrage that you feel. I can't tell you about the hissyfit that I had when I learned the truth about the voting machines. But put on your thinking cap for a moment.

Charging like a bull at the Republicans won't work. The average Joe in middle America who doesn't know a quarter of what you do about these issues will not respond to that. When Republicans start saying Dems are getting hysterical, Joe will be inclined to agree with them. Especially if you start throwing 9/11 stories at him along with a laundry list of complaints. They will call you "conspiracy nutcases" and then turn up the volume themselves. Joe will simply tune out.

But Joe cares about Iraq. Real Americans are dying there. It's likely the he personally knows someone there. That he understands and that he will respond to.

Stories about the president handling the situation and lying about our reasons for being there will resonate. And once they resonate, Joe will be more likely to believe the other things you are saying as well. Then real discussion about impeachment can happen.

Otherwise, the angry bull is rushing at a ready matador.

Jay:

The DNC is not organized and coordinated enough to pull off the plan you outline any more than they are to start an educational drive. The media may be complicit in Republican crimes, but that shouldn't change Democratic strategy. That is definitely a sign of Stockholm syndrome. I've no delusions that Democrats are going to put up a united front against domestic spying, what with people like Feinstein and Lieberman, but they run the risk of being totally steamrolled if NONE of them speak out. Bush has nowhere to go but down... Democrats shouldn't squander that chance.

Charlene #43:

Haha, and I suppose flying our flags upside down will really STICK IT TO THEM!

Then we'll have a PROTEST to show Bu$$$$$$$$$$$$hCo and KKKarl Rove that we're upset and won't take any more of their eliti$t brainwashing of Amerikkka! It'll be the biggest protest ever and will solve every problem in the world!

Joan #37

Please explain to me, step by step, just exactly how this would happen.

Don't guess, speculate, conjure, or estimate. Tell me, after a house or senate member has bill in hand, who they would go to, what committee would be assigned the bill, the chair of the committee, the number of republicans on that committee, the number of democrats on that committee, and how each would vote to get it thru.

Then tell me how it would proceed.

Otherwise I must assume you are not really aware of how it works, because my understanding of it seems to be quite different from yours.

At least I am sure that one of us does not understand how it works. And if I am wrong about it I want to learn how it works so I can have a correct understanding.

Hey I just found the 31%.

Read the comments - simply amazing! They haven't a clue!

#47 BVAC

There's nothing sophisticated about what I am proposing. Send a party wide memo instructing all Democrats to talk about Iraq at every event, function, and media opportunity for the next 3 months. Give examples like I posted in #9. Tell them that the objective is to further bring the president's poll numbers down in preparation for the November election. The president's numbers will go down. Then change the talking points to say that "the election is a referendum on Iraq" and "real change in Iraq will only come if the Dems are in control of the House AND Senate." Then begin to talk about impeachment and some of the wider issues.

For Larry Bergan: FYI, Philo Farnsworth's wife died a couple of days ago. I think she was 98.

Jay:

My view is that the DNC does not have the organizational power or coordination to adopt talking points and strategicially employ them leading up to the election, but I'll let that one go.

Bush is at 31-34%... how much lower do you need him to go before talking about domestic spying? I think he will drop down to around 27% going into the summer due to gas prices, scandals, the imminent indictment of Karl Rove, and possible natural disasters (people will remember Katrina). Of course, anything can happen.. gas prices stabilize, scandals are just a few bad apples, Rove isn't indicted, and the government responds quickly and ably to any storm.

BVAC #52

Are you a retired Ross Perot strategist?

They were good, but too idealistic. They condemned on the one hand, but could not resonate with the body politic they were practicing politics on (the American voters).

No wonder Perot dropped out eventually. At least he did it at the end. Others dropped out at the beginning and just did "campaigning" after that

Bvac,

"Bush is at 31-34%... how much lower do you need him to go before talking about domestic spying? I think he will drop down to around 27%"

I'd say between 25-27% and serious comparisons to Nixon will start to surface in the media. I think it was around there at the start of 1974, the year he resigned. Rank and file Republicans will start to wonder if the leaders will lead them to certain defeat in November. Get the average Joe on the street talking about Iraq AND impeachment then you will have audiences on any topic you choose.

"Of course, anything can happen.. gas prices stabilize, scandals are just a few bad apples, Rove isn't indicted, and the government responds quickly and ably to any storm."

That's another reason why you lead with Iraq. There is no quick fix. The civil war is real and casualties will continue to mount. The president has committed to stay there for the rest of his term. He's left himself very little wiggle room on it.

#47 bvac

Hey snot nose, the flag flown upside down would be a national statement, leading our fellow Americans, & others, to ask why we are flying our flag in that way--creating an opportunity to explain what they don't know to them.
It's a very good idea.
Something you have not had.

BTW, just protesting is not civil disobedience.

Now go to bed.
The adults are having a conversation.

Charlene,

The adults are offering solutions. The problem is the failure of the administration to uphold the Constitution and assert the rule of law. The solution is to lawfully remove the criminals from office. The modus operandi is state proclamations, building grass roots support for impeachment, driving the approval rating of Bush ever downward, holding full investigations of the Iraq war and domestic surveillance when a majority is gained, and ultimately changing the composition of the administration.

You want solutions, but tell those who offer them to "dream on"

You claim to be having conversation, yet you ignore viable lawful solutions to our growing problem.

The current Senate is failing to protect the Constitution and you say "Get over it"

Your flag idea, by the way, is fucking stupid. First of all, 70% of the country will think you are batshit crazy. It would do nothing but reinforce the belief that "liberals" "hate America". I'm sure Bill Frist and Hillary Clinton would be delighted as they pass their flag desecration legislation a month before the elections, as rednecks and hillbillies turn out in record numbers muttering "America - love it or leave it!" and having no idea what your idiotic 'country in distress' protest is about - or caring one bit. Second of all, it does fucking absolutely nothing to deal lawfully with a broken system of checks and balances, when there are perfect mechanisms within the Constitution to deal with the situation. Maybe pointless symbolic gestures give you and your hippy cohorts some self-satisfying sense of accomplishment, but it's not helping any of us in the real world. Step aside and let leaders lead.

I try to be civil at all times, but some of this shit just goes beyond the pale.

Allright you guys,This is the First Blog I ever read and the one I want to see first when I log on. Stop your fighting and name calling.It does no one any good. Remember the Mantra divide and conquer.Thats not what we are trying to do here Is It? We are trying to find solutions, not baiting each other into arguments. A little respect for everyones opinion. We cannot fight amongst ourselves.That is exactly what they want. To divide us so we Don't come up with the solutions to get us out of this God awful mess. I think everyone thats here are adults and I respect everyones opinions. Take what you will away from here to affect some kind of change in our own daily lives. I draw so much strength from all you guys, Knowing your thoughts and all the links and truth I receive here. It really pains me to see this infighting here at the Bradblog. I also realize we are all pissed and frustrated with what is happening to our Country,and only want whats best for her. But we cannot take it out on each other. The anger has been ratcheting up here for the last couple of weeks. Why is that?

RLM #51

Thanks Robert. That's too bad. There's goes an important witness to history.

Laura
You're quite right. We're all on the same side and we need to keep it that way.
Hey, where the heck is Ralph Nader? He DOES have some answers. (Everyone should read "The Good Fight".) He used to be on C-Span and the news programs. Has he been banned or what? What happened to the veterans that we're running for Congress? I think the only way we'll get to make some noise is to surround EVERY republican Congressman's office for a week or more ala Cindy Sheehan and the ranch and get the MSM to cover the outrage we feel. Grassroots is the only way to go.

Hey, so we play hardball sometimes ... and get angry ... must be human, eh?

The real test is whether or not we can pick up and go on.

There is not one blogger or troll that I will not continue blogging with. Even those that call me a moron, jerk, troll, or whatever. Sometimes I am those things and sometimes not. Hey, I am human.

Those that don't get mad sometimes with all the disaster coming down around us, are not being real or they are saints.

Either way, hardball over, lets move on and continue to express our view.

#46 Jay,
I appreciate your responding to my comment. Re your statement
"Charging like a bull at the Republicans won't work."

I agree, but that's not what I was suggesting. My point was just that when dems are confronted by certain pronouncements from the right, like "Impeachment would be bad for the country", (and many on the left have said this, too) their responses should be factual, pithy, coordinated, to the point, passionate (though hopefully not quite as hysterical as my comment probably sounded!), and repeated OFTEN.

For example, in answer to "Impeachment would be bad for the country" one could say
"Torture & secret prisons are bad for the country" and "Being the only developed nation without a healthcare plan is bad for the country".

I was prompted to write what I wrote after I heard Nancy Pelosi say, too defensively imho, that dems are not "about impeachment" when asked to comment on the Conyers resolution; and after hearing too many people opine that dems should put all talk of impeachment aside for now.
Because it is already out there being dismissed as "crazy talk" by the right; and because the outrages & lawlessness of this admin are so DESERVING of this proper penalty provided by law, I think it absolutely needs to be confronted & discussed.
Otherwise the right is free to frame the discussion on their terms, as usual.

Weren't you outraged that only ONE senator, Boxer, was willing to stand with Tubbs Jones on January 6th to contest the Ohio electoral votes?
Do you think dems gained anything by NOT standing up & demanding the LAWFUL scrutiny that Ohio--and many other states, for that matter--deserved?

Do you think they gained anything when EVERY SINGLE dem including Boxer who deigned to speak about the issue that day said some variation of "This is not about changing the results..gwb is our president now"?
Or how about when Bill Clinton declared soon after that "George W. Bush won the election fair & square."

Jesus in a jar! THAT was helpful!!

Well, I think they've gained the reputation of the party that bends over backwards to walk on eggshells--on tiptoe--wearing blinders & earplugs.

I don't know if any of you saw that movie "Thank You For Smoking"--a forgettable movie, but in it the head tobacco guy says something like
"We want to sell cigarettes...they're cheap...they're addictive...hell, the job is practically done FOR us!"

Well the dems are facing up against one of--if not THE--most unpopular presidents in history, whose party is drowning in a fetid pool of corruption & scandal, whose poll numbers are in the toilet, and who has a long & richly documented history of saying & doing absolutely IDIOTIC things!!

All I'm saying is USE THAT! Use ALL OF IT!! Like the man said IT PRACTICALLY DOES ITSELF!!

They are TOO defensive, they respond TOO often to baiting tactics instead of directing the conversation to where THEY want it to go, they do not use the MOUNTAIN of material that is sitting right in front of them.

Sample Q & A:

Repub statement: "Dems are corrupt too."
Dem possible answers:
"WHO'S been indicted?? Delay, Libby, Abramoff, Ken Lay, Cunningham ---all republicans!"

"WHO'S under investigation? Rove, Ney, Frist, Wilkes, Safavian ---all Republicans!"

Repub statement: "The country is safer under GWB."
Dem possible answers:
"HOW MANY of the 9/11 Commission's recommendations has he NOT implemented?"

"HOW MANY nuclear & chemical plants has he NOT secured?"

"WHAT percentage of goods coming into our ports are NOT inspected?--NINETY-FIVE percent?
WOW! I feel SAFER!"

You said too:
"When Republicans start saying Dems are getting hysterical, [the average] Joe will be inclined to agree with them. Especially if you start throwing 9/11 stories at him"
I agree with the second part of that: the average Joe is not ready to consider that could be true (9/11 as an "inside job"), so we leave that alone.
But to a charge that dems are just being hysterical (if in fact they've NOT been), the response should stick to the facts & say something, again, pithy, relevant & TRUE.
R: "Dems are hysterical!"
D: "Not at all. It is not hysteria to point out that Iraq is now a breeding ground for terrorists where none existed before. George Bush CREATED that situation. That is simply a fact."
Or whatever the actual issue is that they're discussing.
Stay calm, bring it back to the relevant, factual FAILING that addresses the point.

#48
Dredd,
Thanks for responding. You said
"Please explain to me, step by step, just exactly how this would happen."
How what would happen? Impeachment? I wasn't addressing the actual process of impeaching them. I was saying it should be talked about, dems shouldn't back away from the subject as if it's crazy & inappropriate. It is neither, as Arlen Specter recently said, actually. In fact I believe the video of him saying that is here on the Bradblog. Anyway, sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

I'm aware that the dems do not now have subpoena power, nor do they have chairmanships or the majority on committees because they're the minority party.
That does not preclude them from saying publicly that impeachment is more than warranted and is the proper & only avenue in our legal system that applies. If I'm wrong about that I'll be happy to be corrected.

Neither does it preclude them from mentioning in public the impeachment outcry that is being heard increasingly across the country, from the various states that have addressed it to the many Freeway Blogger signs that are popping up. I wish they would do that!

Hell, I could be dead wrong on all this & maybe I sound like a smartass, I dunno. It just seems to me that people in the public eye should be capable of calm, relevant debate! Hahaha, maybe I'm dreamin', huh?

Though BRAD seems to be capable of it!! His calmness even while debating the odd nutjob has been impressive! Maybe the dems could hire him as a consultant.

Uh. Don't know what I accidently hit to get that emoticon in there.

#22 KBE,
Wow. Thank you, that's an amazing progression. I like this from their 2004 platform:

"Iraq is now becoming an example of reform." Right. And that's so much truer NOW, dontcha think?

And oh my sweet jesus, the ONLY THING THEY HAVE LISTED under Technology is:
"Support do-not-call & do-not-email lists".

That's IT. Boy, no crazy, techno, sciency stuff for THEM!!

Wow, these guys are so on-the-ball! So 21st Century! So completely & unbelievably out of their freakin' tree!

Abortion is first on their '04 platform. GAD. That whole 2004 platform is VERY disturbing.

The problem I have with you is that you still don't get it---well, plus you're a snot nosed, petty, egotistical smart ass with nothing that backs up this high opinion of yourself---but still, you'd rather trot out & blather every trite thought in your head to us all, like it's gold, rather than analyze, study & listen first, so you'll have something worthwhile to add.
There, I said it.

I'm very worried.
I've been here to witness what's happening in our nation since Eisenhower.
The state of our government & what has been happening is very different than it has ever been--it has all taken a very dark turn.

I've never seen so much blatant & outright, in-your-face-what-you-gonna-do lying & trashing of our laws & customs, coupled with little or no response from our elected officials.

The usual ways will not work now that the entire setup is totally controlled by criminals who are very close to martial law right now.
Ask the Germans how it felt with Hitler in charge.
The usual ways will not work.
For someone who loves this country, has been diligently working on this as an activist for a good long while with absolutely no progress---the outrage, the horror, & the fear caused by this grave situation seethes & bubbles up, as it rightfully should.
The founding fathers must be turning over in their graves.

You didn't live through Vietnam to see how much it took, from so many, for so long, to get just that war ended.
Citizens, & lots of them---marched in the streets. We got hosed, shot, beaten, gassed, & arrested. This went on for years & years, & everyone saw it every night on the news! The body counts & bloody footage from the front lines, & the front lines at home--the angry, violent protests & the cops fighting back. We wrote our elected officials--but nothing worked until years & years of angry fighting in the streets, for the most part, finally, finally, ended it.

THIS is way more than a war.

The "Chicago 7" could never happen today because the government would keep their trial secret, just like they've been keeping other federal trials secret when they want to.
They can come into your home, right now, arrest you & take you away with no explanation, no right to a lawyer nor any one even knowing where you are for years & years--plus the torture.
We can't count on exercising any rights we used to enjoy.
We can't count on rights we used to enjoy...don't you get it?!
You have no grasp of the magnitude of the trouble we are in!

I just can't abide some squirt telling everyone to basically write a letter.

We're in deep trouble here with no reasonable way out.

My last entry was meant for "bvac". ( whatever THAT means...)

I'm glad you clarified that, Charlene, 'cause, damn. You had me shakin' in my boots for a minute there. If I had boots.

Charlene
Get a grip. Things are very bad but they could be worse. They COULD be abducting people secretly but they haven't got us yet so there is still hope. Do you want to bring back '60s style riots? I think that's what they want us to do so they can say we are anarchists of some kind and it would give them a reason to start shooting. Whatever we do, it must be peaceful at present. Getting angry and acting in haste will play into their hand. We need powerful people on our side and Brad has the connections to the connections. We're not goners and there is time so we need to be smart about how we use that time. Getting pissy with each other is a waste.

and so it sinks... according to the new Harris Poll...

to 29% approval !!!

#67 Roger

Well, you're right that we need powerful people on our side.
You're right that it could be much worse--I don't want to see that happen by pissing away our time & energy with elected officials.
I mean, the Jews saw subtle signs & changes coming--but most did nothing because they never dreamed it would get that bad. We need to take a lesson from history.
Bush could invade Iran tonight, begin the draft, & claim he must stay for a third term to stop terrorism. (Although I believe he will do it AFTER the election)
Who is going to stop him?
Some representatives would speak out against it--but he has the judicial & legislative branches in his pocket, not to mention the military. If the people raise too much of a stink over it--he'll just cart them off as political prisoners--hello bags on our heads & standing naked with dogs biting us while being shocked with wires.
We MUST stop the criminals controling our government & to believe that it will work to just ask them to please give us control back is foolish.
Your major assumption that elected officials will help us if we ask them nicely, go through channels, & behave ourselves, has one major flaw.

They won't help us because they ARE the problem.
THEY are the problem.
They will not help us.

All they will do is make noises like they might do something, to give us hope & keep us begging, but they won't do anything, & they'll have an excuse. When we all know our reps should be screaming bloody murder & rallying the people behind them--that is, if they were honest instead of criminals.

They must be made to feel very, very uncomfortable before they will consider giving up the course they are on. That is the key to getting control back.

We need an underground whose silent symbol could be the inverted flag.
Since they are listening, I guess we'll need carrier pidgeons to communicate & organize...

What if we did have 60's style riots?
Obviously, we need to rally the people to the cause.
Of course, with the criminals controlling the media today, unlike in the past--will anyone learn of the riots except by blog or word of mouth?
They are trying to change our internet set up too--they want to make it hard to go to your favorite site unless they let you.
Yea, they're trying to do that.
But don't worry, Roger, it's not THAT bad yet.
Just write a letter to your rep & all will be well.

Are we better than our boys serving in the military? It's okay for them to risk dying but not us?

These elected turds want us all to continue to write letters & beg them to do something while they say well, we MIGHT do something---IF you vote for us first! (Even though they have done nothing so far & show no signs of doing anything in the future--you still believe them! I got a bridge to sell you then...)

And BTW, how would you really know if Bush were already abducting people secretly?
People in Europe, near his torture chambers, are already disappearing. Are we far behind?

If the Revolution comes, he sure as hell is sittin in the catbird seat, ready to defend his kingdom, isn't he?
You think that's a coincidence, or you think Bush & Co planned for this?

Charlene
I don't think Bush planned anything. He's a puppet pure and simple. But I DO believe there are people in the government more than uncomfortable with the way things are. Are they part of the problem? Yes, but only so much as 1 person doesn't have the power to change things directly, especially when they are in the minority party and there aren't enough to stand up together like they did against the Social Security plans of Bushco. Come November, if things don't change in Congress, there WILL be riots but if that happens then there will be more reason for Bush to declare martial law. What to do, what to do? Is it a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation? I'm as angry as anyone for allowing this to happen but what CAN 1 person do? We need organization and an outrage protest, one so large they can't help but listen and it can't be a 1 time thing. It has to be constant. Are you up for it?

Roger: I'm up for it.

Yup me too

So let's get together!

Roger, I am up for it.

How do I know you're not a federal agent?
We all need to join with people we know in our own neighborhood.
That's first.

You're still hangin on to the Dems excuse that they WOULD do something if only they COULD.
It's BS.
Let it go.
The real truth is they COULD do something, but they WON'T.
If they get majority, they still won't do anything. That's just a carrot they use to get us to vote for them even though they've done a lousy job & don't deserve to be elected. They got nerve don't they?

When I say "Bush", I mean the entire criminal gang--I know he's just their figurehead.

If there WERE a Revolt, I don't believe they would hurt citizens right off the bat because too many have cameras now & it would be all over the internet right away, even if MSM did not run footage of it. When other citizens saw it--they'd be outraged at the government & the Revolution would grow.
They'd probably play it nice at first.
But what they sometimes do with a peaceful demonstration, in order to discourage any others from joining--several of them claim someone threw a rock or a bottle, even though no one did, & several of them will say they saw it, even though it never happened--& then they have legal right to begin violent treatment of the demonstrators.
The police/feds also film the demonstrators so they can be identified & a dossier made on each one.
The police have done that on occasion in the past. That's how a peaceful demonstration turns into a riot.
So it's very tricky.
The point of a peaceful demonstration is to rally other citizens to the cause.
That's why they under-reported the huge Washington demonstration against the war & Bush back in Sept of '05. That ruins the point of it which was to rally citizens.
The point of civil disobedience is damage to property/upsetting their ability to run things. (Think Boston tea party)
That's why they are trying to get control of the internet too now. They're covering ALL the bases, so there's no way for us to fight back successfully.

Also, it worries me that lately Bush is talking about building a wall between Mexico & us.
He says it's to keep illegal Mexicans out--but it can also be used to keep Americans in. He's putting military guards there.
You see what I mean?
Also, he has Halliburton building those big expensive "detention camps" we've all heard about near the borders..
The military deserters from Vietnam used to flee into Canada--but I understand they have that outlet stopped now--so the Mexican border is the only alternative to getting out of here short of a boat or plane.

What would Abe Lincoln do in our place?

Charlene

I'm not a federal agent. You'll just have to take my word for that.
I agree with much of what you wrote. I've also thought about enclosing the southern border to keep people in rather than out. It's dicey but ya never know. If that were the case though, there would be riots all over the place. It would never hold. Washington would be stormed and anarchy would ensue. I'm not sure that the military as a whole would back that sort of thing either. Certainly the citizenry wouldn't support that. As far as demonstrations are concerned, I've thought about that too. What is to stop an infiltrator from starting a riot and making anti-war, anti-Bush administration protestors look like they can't control themselves and get labeled as anarchists? Nothing really. That's why I say that any march on Washington must be peaceful no matter what. Civil, organized, clean and massive. It's the only way I can think of to get attention and pressure lawmakers to do something about this God awful administration. Writing doesn't seem to get their attention and calling is useless since they never answer the phone, at least here in New York. What more is there? Perhaps a touch of anarchy IS the only way. I hope not, though.

Charlene

I'm not a federal agent. You'll just have to take my word for that.
I agree with much of what you wrote. I've also thought about enclosing the southern border to keep people in rather than out. It's dicey but ya never know. If that were the case though, there would be riots all over the place. It would never hold. Washington would be stormed and anarchy would ensue. I'm not sure that the military as a whole would back that sort of thing either. Certainly the citizenry wouldn't support that. As far as demonstrations are concerned, I've thought about that too. What is to stop an infiltrator from starting a riot and making anti-war, anti-Bush administration protestors look like they can't control themselves and get labeled as anarchists? Nothing really. That's why I say that any march on Washington must be peaceful no matter what. Civil, organized, clean and massive. It's the only way I can think of to get attention and pressure lawmakers to do something about this God awful administration. Writing doesn't seem to get their attention and calling is useless since they never answer the phone, at least here in New York. What more is there? Perhaps a touch of anarchy IS the only way. I hope not, though.

Charlene,

Check yourself before you wreck yourself. You've been childish this entire thread and offer nothing but foolish personal attacks.

I'm talking about removing a tyrant from office, and you give us.... upside down flags? That is retarded. Seriously.

re: Vietnam. Protests didn't even start until five years after the war started, and didn't end the war until five years later. Maybe all that sex, drugs, and rock & roll was too distracting?

There's no way around it, your generation failed. It delivered us every awful president from Nixon right up to Bush. Now forty years of fascist infiltration of our government by people who conspire with all of their resources every day, of every week, of every year, to extend private empire and perpetuate war is going to be neutralized by some protest that blankets every pet cause of every radical in the country?

I'll side with the Constitution on this one.

Cheney/Quayle 2008

If Bush wants to get even with us, he will resign and leave us with Cheney.

That would save us all the hard (impossible) impeachment work, and at the same time, show why impeachment is ill advised at this juncture.