Guest blogged by David Edwards
Senator Joe Lieberman said he had breakfast with Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and General Pace. Lieberman denied rumors that he has plans to replace Rumsfeld as the Secretary of Defense.
According to an AP report, the Pentagon claims that the breakfast meeting was called so that Lieberman could share his impressions of Iraq with Rumsfeld and General Pace.
CBS Video in Windows Media format…
CBS Video in QuickTime format…
(Comments are now closed.)
(Comments are now closed.)
Got thoughts, complaints, suggestions, requests or problems with our new BRAD BLOG design? Please let me know via comments right here! Thanks! — Brad
Thanks to you, The BRAD BLOG has been trouble-making and muckraking for … 22 YEARS!!!
Please help The BRAD BLOG, BradCast and Green News Report remain independent and 100% reader and listener supported in our 23rd YEAR!!!
THE BRADCAST on KPFK/Pacifica Radio Network (90.7FM Los Angeles, 98.7FM Santa Barbara, 93.7FM N. San Diego and nationally on many other affiliate stations! ALSO VIA PODCAST: RSS/XML feed | Pandora | TuneIn | Apple Podcasts/iTunes | iHeart | Amazon Music
GREEN NEWS REPORT, nationally syndicated, with new episodes on Tuesday and Thursday. ALSO VIA PODCAST: RSS/XML feed | Pandora | TuneIn | Apple Podcasts/iTunes | iHeart | Amazon Music
Koncentration Kamp Konservatives
Jews like Joe Leiberman Lead the Jews into the gas
chambers Ultamatly into the OVENS. Fuck Trader Joe!
Every time george w bush speaks God kills a Kitten
Hasn’t anybody developed a vaccine for the Neocon parasite yet?
I don’t think you can make a vaccine for the "Black Soul". It seems to be a birth defect to me..
Actually Judge, God is in awe everytime Bush talks because he too is a creator. He has created many many new words in his two terms….
And he still beat Kerry.
I guess Joe Lieberman moved up on the Dem’s depth chart, with the retirement of Zell Miller.
Anybody want to comment on this (below) ??
PUBLIC LAW 95-79 [P.L. 95-79] TITLE 50, CHAPTER 32, SECTION 1520 "CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WARFARE PROGRAM"
"The use of human subjects will be allowed for the testing of chemical and biological agents by the U.S. Department of Defense, accounting to Congressional committees with respect to the experiments and studies."
"The Secretary of Defense [may] conduct tests and experiments involving the use of chemical and biological [warfare] agents on civilian populations [within the United States]."
-SOURCE- Public Law 95-79, Title VIII, Sec. 808, July 30, 1977, 91 Stat. 334. In U.S. Statutes-at-Large, Vol. 91, page 334, you will find Public Law 95-79. Public Law 97-375, title II, Sec. 203(a)(1), Dec. 21, 1982, 96 Stat. 1882. In U.S. Statutes-at-Large, Vol. 96, page 1882, you will find Public Law 97-375.
Let’s see — what did Saddam do? (Thanks M4 for the comparison – on an earlier thread.)
A SHORT HISTORY OF US GOVERNMENT RESPECT FOR HUMAN LIFE
I’ll comment.. Our leaders seem to have lost their minds? They are all (almost all) rich fucks who spend their time pondering, but haven’t ever been out there in the real world where people feel pain and sorrow and misery. Most rich people I’ve ever met don’t care for their families, they care about money.. kill their families, they don’t care, they cash in their insurance policies without missing a beat..
There is a HUGE difference in perspective from rich people to "average" people (and another big leap from average to "impoverished"). When someone is sitting in a cozy lavish room in a $1,500 suit drinking 30 year old scotch and feeling superior, they are apt to find it "reasonable" for the "safety of the masses" to allow expierments on our own people.. Hey, we all have to make sacrafices, right? Of course, "all" being the "masses" and not the "ruling elite".. They know those tests aren’t going to be over the Hamptons, they are going to be over all those queer folks in San Fran Sisco (like has been done in the past).
What’s sad is, most Americans just don’t know how well used and abused by our leaders we are.. They don’t want to know, either.. denial is not just a place in Egypt. If the populace knew what kinds of crap they were being fed by politicians, they would rage agaisnt them.. so it’s all kept quiet from the masses.. Media won’t cover it because the corperate interests know that if our current government falls, they lose their money.. Money is the God that drives America, despite what the christians would like to believe, and, in fact, Money is content to use christians too.. just ask Scanlon, he wrote about it in his letters trying to seperate those "whackos" from their money..
Until we FORCE out leaders to be decent folks (and only elect decent folks, but given the nature of politics, that’s near impossible), we’re screwed.. We have all kinds of laws in place to protect us, but the people making the laws and also responsible for starting investigations into violations of laws are the same people. They pass laws that are blatantly illegal (defined as something that violates the Constitution.. engaging in harmful expierments on the populace is, I think, violating our rights.. no?) and that’s what the Supreme Court is for.. to be a check on that, yet, that’s being suberted too.. by corrupt politicians.. get it? see the circle?
Corperations keep us fat and lazy and politicians keep us ignorant (uneducated).. They are in bed together (corperations pay lots of money to politicians.. hmm.. why? duh?) and what’s good for one is good for the other.. yet, virtually NOTHING that’s good for "them" is good for "us", or this country. But we’ll not get hung up on the details of how our leaders are supposed to be protecting US, not corperations.. Let’s just sit back and enjoy the show, shall we? The burning flesh and diseases that kill millions over a decade or so will go unnoticed and unreported for a long time… but hey, it’s only the "average people" that will die.. so no biggy, right?
Beware!!! Liberals that Post On Conservative BLOGs
* Liberal and anti-bush messages are removed
* They get your IP and Virus-Bomb your email
* Spoof you with your own Personal info
How do they get this Data ??? Homeland security ???
Are we now in the "Fascist States of America" ???
!!! DANGER !!! Will Robinson
Liberals that Post On Conservative BLOGs
* Liberal and anti-bush messages are removed
* They get your IP and Virus-Bomb your email
* Spoof you with your own Personal info
How do they get this Data??? Homeland security ???
Are we now in the "Fascist States of America" ???
Liberal and Proud
Savantster – you prove an excellent point with your post. Liberals are LOOOONG WINDED. Try something fun. Read your posting slow and soft at first gradually building to a more rapid pace and raising your voice as you go along. It’s funny if you end up yelling at the end. Then jump off your soapbox and go box and get ready for your 9 PM shift at Denny’s.
Kira
Thanks!
Any folk out there who blindly beat the drum of patriotism have bought into the myths handed down which serve to insulate the guilty from their egregious sins brought about on the soil of Turtle Island, since the first boat landed until today.
The only way they can shield themselves from their guilt is to make the underclass sub-human, thus the Axis of Evil rhetoric. It won’t stand up to muster on the real Judgement Day. They will pay for their crimes against humanity.
Well Mr. Jeb, it so happens that I’m a pretty well compensated Software Engineer.. Yeah, shocking I know.. someone who’s pretty smart, upper-middle class (and single.. if I was to marry a like-minded woman making the same money I do, we’d be upper-middle class.. ), professionally employed, and STILL gives a shit about my fellow man.. Horrible, isn’t it? I’m not some closed-minded ignorant shit-bag who only cares about money? I mean, come ON!.. I grew up so poor that for Christmas dinner when I was 8, we had PBnJ and water.. no presents, no tree, nothing special about the day.. other than it was just another day of having pretty much -nothing-.. See, most "republicans" never grew up like that, never had to have hardships.. course, there are the anectdotal few that "grew up with hardships", the difference is, now the have turned into what they hate.. people who say "you deserve what you get.. if you’re poor, it’s your own fault", and never bother to see the -fact- that there just aren’t enough "slots" above for upward mobility.. the anectdotal few are just that.. few.
And, Mr. Jeb, might I ask what’s wrong with being "LOOOONG WINDED"? Oh, right.. I forget.. you’ve trained people to be 30-second-sound-bite responders.. it’s MUCH easier to tell a quick lie than a long one, and much easier to puch at a detailed truth with a short and mangled lie.. If you ever had to be "LOOOONG WINDED", you’d drone on with such blatherings as to be proved a liar right off the bat, and there’d be no coherence or point.. That’s the nice thing about "fast lies".. The -fact- is, to fully discuss and understand MOST issues in life, you -have- to be long winded.. and educated, and patient, and interested.. In our fast-food, first person shooter video game, 30 second sound bite culture, no one gives a shit or has time to stop and think, let a lone smell the roses.. but then, that’s where Repugs like the masses.. scrambling and thrashing so they never have a chance to get the full picture.
Funny that you can’t comment on any of the points of the post, just try to attack the messenger (of facts) and try to denegrate me by implying I’m not capable of doing more than working at Denny’s and railing against my own poverty. Your premise and postulation shows how elitist (and ignorant) you are. Exactly the kind of trash-of-a-human-being I was eluding to in my post (and your job is irrelavant, get it?)
You’re WELCOME Bluebear2!!
bah!.. the first "upper-middle class" should be "middle-middle class".. I was already thinking of the paranthetical and seemingly typed in the wrong thing.. bleh.. I probably should start proofing posts..
Na.. it’s not worth it.. anyone that has to latch on to a typo/simple mistake like that and use it for their sole basis of argument wouldn’t care if those mistakes weren’t there anyway.. they’d just say I should run off to my job at Denny’s if they didn’t have anything else to pick on, right? 🙂
Kira #6 unbelievable and scary
Savantster #8 Very well said. The opulence in certain areas of my town is appalling. 5,000 square foot homes with 4 car garages and 4 Expeditions parked in the drive, a 60′ motor home in the side yard and a 30′ power boat in back. The rest of us live in 2 bedroom 900 square foot houses built in the 30’s and 40’s.
Judge of Judges #9. This sort of thing happened to me several months ago when I clicked on a link here at BB to go to a story at a Repug site. I was greeted with a message saying that my IP address had been recorded – it was displayed for me – and I was not allowed access to the site. I had never been to that site nor posted in any of their comment sections. I thought it was very strange. Don’t know if they were able to see that I had come from BB or if they had been logging posters her at BB or visitors to Raw Story etc.
Jeb is the worst troll I’ve seen yet…..I think he’s satire!
Go join your friend Adam Kidan Jeb, he just pled guilty to corruption charges…
And then maybe you can take Diebold with you to jail!!! We’re going to bring the whole empire down.
:laugh:
Doug E
Jeb Bush ’08.
Thank you so much for making me aware of my erroneous ways. I don’t know what I would have done without you. You are my saviour. I will vote for you in 2008 (although I probably don’t need to, right?) You have come into my life at this precise moment of despair and saved me the sodomite incestuous liberal lie. In fact, now that I have been saved, I think I will go and kill myself so that I am no longer tempted by Satan.
Boy, I really hope that was sarcasm soul rebel…… I don’t think Jeb could stand it otherwise, with all his fundie door hanger buddies!!!
They usually meet down at the club SunCruz.
Doug
OT
Breaking – BBV Attorney writes to CA SoS
– permission to reprint, with link to http://blackboxvoting.org/
UPDATE ON CALIFORNIA DIEBOLD VOTING MACHINE "HACK" TESTING
Letter faxed and mailed Dec. 9, 2005
To: California Secretary of State, Bruce McDannold, cc: Bruce McPherson
From: John S. Baker, Atty at Law, Dorsey & Whitney So. Cal. Office
“I represent Black Box Voting, Inc., a non-partisan, non-profit 501c(3)
corporation. On June 16, 2005, Black Box Voting sent a request to
examine the Diebold Election Systems component: the programmed
“electronic ballad box” memory cards used in optical scan and touch
screen voting systems (“Component”). This request was made pursuant
to California Elections Code Section 19202 (“19202 Request”), which
provides:
ANY PERSON OR CORPORATION OWNING OR BEING INTERESTED IN ANY
VOTING SYSTEM OR PART OF A VOTING SYSTEM MAY APPLY TO THE
SECRETARY OF STATE TO EXAMINE IT AND REPORT ON ITS ACCURACY
AND EFFICIENCY TO FULFILL TIS PURPOSE. THE SECRETARY OF STATE
SHALL COMPLETE HIS EXAMINATION WITHOUT UNDUE DELAY.
“In the 19202 Request, Black Box Voting asked that the Component be
evaluated for five possible flaws with respect to: the latest optical scan
systems (firm wear 1.96.4); the paperless touch screen, as used in Alameda
County on November 2, 2004; the new TSx system proposed for certification;
and any older optical scan model still in use in California. A copy of the 19202
Request is attached for your convenience.
“Even though Section 19202 requires the Secretary of State to complete his
or her examination without ‘undue delay’, Black Box Voting did not receive
a response to its Request until Saturday, November 19, 2005. In that e-mail
response, you indicated that the Secretary of State would afford Black Box
Voting an opportunity to demonstrate the vulnerabilities with the Diebold
AccuVote-Os, based on the exploits outlined in the Hursti report. You also
stated that Diebold agreed to make their equipment and their staff available
for such tests on November 30, 2005, at the California Secretary of State’s
office, 1500 11th Street, Sacramento. In connection with your response,
you attached a document that provided the “actual protocol and conditions”
(“Protocols”) for the proposed test.
“Unfortunately, the Protocols, which were written by Diebold, were
seriously flawed, because they contemplated testing equipment that
was specifically hand-picked by Diebold, rather than randomly sampling
voting machines that were currently in existence and being utilized. The
proposed test system (Optical Scan terminal 1.96.6) was of a type that had
not been certified or used in California and was not an item requested for
examination in my client’s 19202 request. However, my clients would be
willing to evaluate this item, but only in addition to the requested items. The
test also contemplated that Diebold would control all of the conditions,
despite the fact that it had a vested interest in the outcome of the test and
would stand to lose millions of dollars if the test showed flaws in the voting
systems created by Diebold. My clients have other concerns with the initial
test protocols; for example the time limits were listed as “required” but were
left blank. We can discuss these issues once a proper dialog on these issues
is established. A copy of your response and the Protocols are attached as
Exhibit 2.
“On November 22, 2005, less than two business days after you sent your
response, you sent an e-mail at 5:11 p.m. stating that if Black Box Voting
would like to participate in the test it would have to respond by 10:00 a.m.
the following morning. You also said that the time of the test would be moved
from 8:00 a.m. to 10:30 a.m. A true and correct copy of your November 22, 2005
response is attached as Exhibit 3.
“Less than three hours after receiving your November 22 e-mail, Black Box
Voting responded by suggesting that the Protocols be changed by selecting
machines from certain County election offices which have not shown a bias
for Diebold. Unfortunately, you have never responded to this correspondence
or permitted the inspection, despite Black Box Voting’s reasonable request under
California Election Code Section 19202. As such, the Secretary of State has
clearly violated Section 19202.
“Accordingly, please contact me upon receipt of this letter as to whether
the Secretary of State will allow Black Box Voting’s 19202 Inspection and,
if so, which Protocols he is agreeable to. If we do not receive a response
to this letter by December 16, 2005, Black Box Voting will be forced to pursue
other available legal remedies.”
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # #
END OF ATTORNEY LETTER
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # #
>From Black Box Voting:
AT ISSUE
Procedures to be negotiated include:
1) The secrecy provisions written by Diebold — Black Box Voting takes the
position that all facets of the test should be open to the public and to the media
2) Access and time limits — Diebold wrote that a time limit would be set but
did not specify whether it would be 30 seconds or two weeks. Diebold left
a "blank" after the time limit item
Diebold involvement in writing procedures sent to Black Box Voting by Calif.
Secretary of state:
The California Secretary of State provided written testing procedures to
Black Box Voting in the form of a Word Document.
A review of the "properties" feature on this electronic document reveals that
it was written by Steve Pelletier of Diebold Election Systems, then sent to
Black Box Voting from the Secretary of State’s office as the Secretary of State’s
proposed testing protocols.
It is the position of Black Box Voting that the vendor should not be involved in
nor control the testing of this system.
* * * END * * *Black Box Voting
Savanster, thank you for that.
For example – my father. A staunch non-partisan all his life now rabid anti-Republican because of the stupidity, lies, mean-spiritedness, fiscal irresponsibility and idiotic lockkk-step mentality.
My dad grew up in a dirt-poor southern state, the son of sharecroppers who worked 18 hours a day in order to have nothing left after rent was paid. He was above-average in intellect but the thing that gave him the edge — he was above-average in physical and mental strength. He required much less sleep and his strong constitution allowed him to work many jobs.
My dad managed to get out of the rut by his dogged perserverance mixed with some luck. He had to endure rude and demeaning remarks along the way made by the "elitists" who had been handed their fortunes and upper-level positions in life without having to struggle for them. They had the gall to sneer at him just because of the environment he was born into. They didn’t care that there were circumstances beyond his parents’ control that caused them to be poverty-stricken with no way out. They ignored the fact that these people worked all day and into the night every day of the year. But we know that it’s only "hard work" when you have to do it for a few weeks between your long, extended, silver-spoon vacations.
I grew up in a middle-class environment, but my dad never let me forget how difficult it was for him to get there and that it could easily disappear. And now, he is disabled due to a sloppy operation in which the surgeon cut a nerve to his diaphragm causing one side to stop working. It took him 10 years to discover that it was not a problem with his lungs as the surgeon kept insisting. Bad luck. But it cost him his livelihood.
Now, with bu$h’s tax cuts paid for by stealing from Social Security and other programs meant to aid those down on thier luck, the poor and the elderly the severe cut of funds to Medicare/Medicaid — my folks are watching their future financial security fall into the toilet. How do 80 year old folks survive if they can’t rely on benefits they have earned by their hard work and tax dollars paid into the system for (in my folks case) 40 years?
To the troll who likes to imagine we are all Denny’s employees (not to say there’s anything wrong with that — don’t all these ‘cons want everybody to have a job?) I’m in the above-middle-class bracket. So there. Stick that in your pipe of dreams and smoke it.
I hear a lot of Koncentration Kamp Konservatives
Compare g w bush to Abraham Lincoln. WELL,
I knew Abraham Lincoln and that Fucking weed bush
Was no Abraham Lincoln !!!
PS We all know Lie-berman is a NeoCON – a warhawk.
Judge
I hadn’t heard that one about Lincoln before, but it does remind me of
GB’s Four Ghosts of Christmas
Anyone know of any good plays in Washington?
When will the Goyem understand, the arrangement is not for their benefits?
It is only an extension of playing both sides into the middle, in one corner we have the necons, in the other corner we have Lieberman, both speaking the same twaddle!
Now go and vote for the AIPAC fielded candidate, and or for the neocons!
All that matters is the ‘clean break’!
From the article:
"According to an AP report, the Pentagon claims that the breakfast meeting was called so that Lieberman could share his impressions of Iraq with Rumsfeld and General Pace."
If Rummy and Pace are wasting their time listening to Lieberman’s unqualified, "impressions of Iraq", then both of them need to be fired right away!
Incompetence flows downhill! Right Dubya?
As for Lieberman, just think if someone went to the Senate and spray painted a big red "R" on Lieberman’s office door!
Just kidding Joe-mint-tums, everyone knows you are really a DINO! And all those letters might not fit on your door either.
Goyem?
Joe Lieberman is "sharing his thoughts" on Iraq with Rumsfeld? Shouldn’t it be the other way around? Tail wagging the dog, I’d have to say.
I’ve been impressed with the heartfelt postings of many here. The anti-Bush camp is an eglitarian group of middle-class, upper-middle-class, and just-scraping-by people. The "other" never identifies itself, but my hunch is they’re mostly people who were born rich and haven’t done anything on their own to justify their comfortable life situation, maybe estranged from their more accomplished relatives who used their wealth wisely, and just plain miserable. Their misery manifests itself with attacks on idealistic people whose sense of purpose and zeal makes them envious.
They’re more to be pitied than censured, as the old song goes.
bluebear2
Offensive Used as a disparaging term for one who is not a Jew. (animal)
Although e should be an i.
However will not acquiesce to the correct speeling.
Al Qaida does not exsist because if they did they wouldn’t need to be "terrorist" .All they would have to do is release video tapes with "real news stories" .
Some Americans are doing more damage to your country than Usama Bin Laden could ever dream of.
Thanks peeved – wbster online had a problem with that one!
Using a dictionary and I can’t even get webster right! Dang must be time to go home!
MMIIXX #31
I don’t understand your comment.
Peeved- I hear you. Unfortunately, it will only be when all the Christians stand up to the Zionists once and for all.
They play both sides against the middle, aka AIPAC.
You can find out much more about this very serious now mainstream issue here….
What Happened?
By the way JoeMentum is yes…a neocon, a zionist, and a stooge for his country. No one can expect him to be any different. While he "votes for the USA", he hails from his country of Israel and is very concerned for his own country above all else. That does make him Zionist according to the Iraq war….in the end this has happened before, watch the movie "Kingdom of Heaven" to really see what has happened…
Doug E.
BlueBear2 & Others-
You may have already noticed, but the Community Assistant, which had become inoperative recently when Torqued shut down the website he hosted it on, has been reinstalled, as of today on the BradBlog (I’m pretty sure by Torqued, so Thanks again to him and may he please make his presence known here when/if he comes to the site).
…bluebear2
What I meant was that "Americans" are doing far more damage to your country than 911 did and that if Al Qaida was to release video tapes of the facts regarding how gwb stole the elections in 2000 and 2004 or outed Plame or the downing street minutes or Able Danger or Ray Lemme or DU or Tom Feeney etc. etc. etc.
Did you see Rummy self-destruct on PBS last night? Lehrer was tossing underhand softballs but Rummy quickly became defensive and fell back on talking points. He actually tried to explain that the deaths and injuries were not so bad because some of the deaths were unrelated to battles and some of the injuries were treatable. The man is insensitive to the destruction of human lives.
jeb bush ’08: Why do you even post here?
Are you "for" experimenting on us/you? You’re just a complete fool. You don’t even make sense. Are you "for" bashing yourself in the head with a hammer, too? Go ahead and do it, then. People like jeb bush ’08 prove over and over again that rightwingers are not independent thinkers, and follow the crowd or their party. They call independent thinkers "liberal"…then I’m proud to be a liberal.
With Jews like lieberman who needs Nazi’s
…bluebear2
A DECLASSIFIED US cable made public overnight shows that US officials warned Saudi counterparts more than three years before the September 11, 2001 attacks that Osama bin Laden might target civilian aircraft.
{ed note: Comment deleted due to repeated, violation of one of the very few rules we have here: posting under different names. Stick with Judge of Judges.}
Steve #36 —
Credit goes out to Brad who worked all afternoon uploading files for the CA and The BradStore site.
Oh and credit to you too Steve, for getting us going on it.
It’s good to see you here Torqued. The last I saw you write on here was "goodbye" and wasn’t sure what that meant. I assumed you were kind of
That’s why he should be no longer in the Democratic party. What is the Democratic party anyway?
Both parties support their wars.
Hey Torqued! Long time no see — I miss you & your thoughtful comments. Liberal Virtual Hugs!
Check this out – Open Letter to Congress by Stan Goff. Powerful Stuff.
http://stangoff.com/?p=222
Joe Lieberman is a Zionist, but not a "pure" Zionist. Let’s call him a 21st century Zionist.
I’m no Hebrew scholar, but as I understand it the biblical Zion was a place anointed by God where Jews could settle and be on their own. God would provide for their needs if necessary, but it was the Jews’ home where they could be left alone.
The neo-con brand of Zionism is different. Israel’s rights are paramount, AND other countries in the region must change their ways of living to conform to the Israeli/Western democratic paradigm. Whether these neighboring countries have any tradition of democracy, or whether their citizens want it, is irrelevant to the neo-cons. It must be.
Joe Lieberman personifies this rigid thinking. Like Bush, he flatters himself by saying, "I don’t change positions with the polls." Of course, he’s trying to distance himself from politicians (like the Clintons) who shift around seeking consensus. That appearance of honesty and candor, combined with his smiling persona, made Joe popular for a while.
But his time has run out. Joe doesn’t change, but it’s not a matter of political integrity, it’s a refusal to admit he’s wrong, which I believe is rooted in his Orthodox Judaism (fundamentalist Christians who interpret the Bible literally are very similar, except they also rely on the New Testament).
The Bible says it, therefore it must be, and everyone else must conform. 21st-century Zionism.
I have said before that Lieberman is a George Bush Democrat for emphasis. Of course that is in reality an oxymoron.
But it does illustrate the point. I am reconsidering that maybe Senator Clinton is a Dick Cheney Democrat, because he is more tolerant of gays and lesbians.
Not because he has intellectual positions, but because one of his family members is a lesbian.
It is his extended self image he is protecting, not the gay/lesbian movement. So Sen. Clinton is more like Cheney than Bush in that sense.
However I do think it is good that everyone in the democratic party not follow the party line just because it is the party line like the republican party is far more prone to do.
For Dredd: I agree that not following the party line is healthy. In my state, Connecticut, we have a lot of Independents (including your obedient servant).
For years Joe has marched to the beat of his own drummer, and Independents have appreciated it and elected him to three consecutive terms.
The problem with Joe now is that he’s developed a rigid mind-set that undermines his appeal to independent thinkers and voters. He isn’t asking us to consider nuances of the Iraq question, or making new arguments in defense of Bush’s policy. He’s saying, "Bush is the commander in chief…live with it." He’s also sticking to utterly foolish positions like, "We’re safer with Saddam Hussein gone."
In other words, Joe Lieberman has become like the neo-cons…fixated on an idealized 21st century variant of Zionism. He isn’t thinking independently at all. He’s thinking rigidly, and like Bush, is utterly unwilling to consider that he might be wrong. I’m positive that’s a function of his Orthodox Judiasm, because Orthodox Jews, by definition, think only inside a theological box. Trying to convince Joe he’s wrong about Iraq is like trying to convince Jerry Falwell he’s wrong about intelligent design.
RLM #51
I have heard a lot of definitions of what "victory" in Iraq is.
I wonder what Lieberman’s version is?
We gotta get rid of WMD’s in Iraq? (version 1)
We gotta be welcomed as liberators? (version 2)
We gotta stop terrorism? (version 3)
We gotta bring democracy? (version 4)
None of the "victory" scenarios are verifiable, measurable, or concrete. They are vague notions and etherial slippery clouds designed as such.
If the population of Iraq is about 26 million (my figures relied on an incorrect source before), and if Murtha is right that 80% want us to leave, that is 20,800,000 people of a sovereign nation that do not want us there. TWENTY MILLION.
If Murtha is right that 45% say it is not illegal nor wrong for insurgents to kill American soldiers, that is 11,700,000 people who are accomplices to the death of Americans in Iraq. ELEVEN MILLION extreme insurgent sympathizers, and TWENTY MILLION moderate insurgent sympathizers.
Whatever happened to Rummy’s 5,000 estimate and Cheney’s "the insurgency is on its last legs" public "statements" (lies?).
Military invasion and occupation of a nation of that size is quite serious in our world. Even if the leader is a dictator.
N. Korea and other nations are worse off than Iraq was when we invaded. Why are they not invaded?
Because it is a very unpopular thing to do in the community of civilized nations.
Lieberman, as you say, is led by the notions of the hawks of Israel. Some of them want to wipe out Arabs and Arabs want to wipe them out.
We must not take sides in this fiasco, but must try to bring peace.
The western and eastern alliances, with the US on one side and China on the other, can’t just decide to go to war over the oil.
All life on earth is at risk in such a scenario. Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) is what we are facing.
The schrill hate filled exclamations of the neoCons should have been rejected from the onset. Instead they have been spoon fed and now they are the 800 pound gorilla.
Victory? No – just plain madness.
I wonder, since another renowned expert declared Peak Oil has been reached, and many are said to have become aware of the term (link here), if oil will be seen as the reason for the Iraq invasion?
If victory is defined as "grabbing up the oil", then I will buy that, however, I do not agree that it is a moral or legitimate reason for invasion.
For Dredd: If my take on Joe Lieberman is right, it doesn’t matter a fig or a farthing to him that the individual excuses for Iraq that you cite (WMD, liberation, terrorism, democracy) have all proven bankrupt. Because the "big picture" to him, and to all neo-cons, is eliminating threats to Israel.
This is the elephant in the room, and has been all along. Others have more facts about 9/11 than I have, but I’m convinced no suicide plane ever hit the Pentagon. The damage there wasn’t nearly severe enough. Rev. Griffin’s speech at Madison a few months ago convinced me that we haven’t been told the truth about 9/11…whether it was planned or allowed to happen, we don’t know the real truth.
Every Muslim country is an enemy of Israel. But not every Muslim country is our enemy. There was no connection between 9/11 and Iraq EXCEPT THE COINCIDENTAL FACT THAT THE SUICIDE BOMBERS WERE MUSLIMS AND IRAQ IS A MUSLIM COUNTRY. Since all Muslim countries hate Israel, including Iraq, we may attack Iraq (and thus increase Israel’s security) because Iraq is a Muslim country.
It doesn’t matter to Lieberman and the neo-cons that Osama bin Laden called Saddam an "infidel." It doesn’t matter that W.M.D.’s didn’t exist. It does matter, however, that Iraq might someday adopt a Western-style democratic form of government, however remote the possibility seems, because Zionism has taken on a new, 21st-century meaning, beyond the Bible and beyond the Balfour Declaration.
Jews must have their own homeland, anointed by God, where they may live in peace, AND THEIR MUSLIM NEIGHBORS MUST CONFORM TO THE SAME DEMOCRATIC IDEALS ISRAEL PROFESSES, TO FURTHER ENHANCE THEIR SECURITY, AND ALL MUSLIMS ARE CONSIDERED ONE HOSTILE NATION UNTIL ISRAEL’S SECURITY IS MANIFEST.
As you have pointed out often, Iraq also has oil. That’s part of the equation. I believe Lieberman, an Orthodox Jew, is motivated by Zionist aspirations combined with 21st-century American global economic ambitions…the same motivations cited by Thomas Friedman, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, and the founders of the neo-con movement, Norman Podhoretz (father-in-law of Floyd Abrams, grandfather of Dan Abrams) and Irving Kristol (father of William).
It’s not a coincidence that Orthodox Jews and Christian fundamentalists are political soulmates. They both take the Bible literally, albeit they focus on different chapters. They can be outvoted (if the machines are honest), but they can’t be persuaded.
[snip] Right now, and for at least the next three years of this administration, the United States of America is not being governed. Not really. Emotional push-button issues and ideological obsessions constitute almost the whole of the federal agenda.
No attention is being paid to what is necessary. Neither the White House nor Congress gives more than lip service to issues upon which our future depends.
Energy, transport, global warming, education, health care, subsidies, scientific research, sustainable agriculture, infrastructure upkeep and modernization, state-of-the-art communication, manufacturing capacity – at the federal level you will find almost nothing concrete, nothing useful, nothing that addresses root problems.
It is government by, for, and of the lobbyists, as even Peggy Noonan admits.
Hurricane Katrina demonstrated, and Iraq every day confirms, that the powers-that-be are dysfunctional. We are on our own. [snip]
And they can’t be removed either, Robert. Until we all face these Zionists for what they are and dismantle the corrupt voting process…..
They can be removed by us alone…But not through words…through action.
Doug E.
The Koncentration Kamp Konservatives
Captain Quieg / Heir Rumsfeld could be loosing
has marbles. Could it be late stage Syphilis ?
Anti-Semitism Refuted:
Those on the receiving end of Globalization now have a terrific advocate in John Perkins, whose new book, Confessions of an Economic Hitman exposes Globalization and the New World Order for what it really is: a transnational, transreligious, corporate crime syndicate whose major criminal enterprises are known as banks, intelligence services and "Defense" departments.
According to Andreas von Bulow, the former German Parliamentarian with whom Mike Ruppert has appeared in Germany:
Von Bulow told AFP that he believes that the Israeli intelligence service, Mossad, is behind the September 11 terror attacks. These attacks, he said, were carried out to turn public opinion against the Arabs, and boost military and security spending…At this level, he said, the organization doing the planning, such as Mossad, is primarily interested in affecting public opinion. The architectural level planners use corrupt "guns for hire" such as Abu Nidal, the Palestinian terrorist who von Bulow called "an instrument of Mossad," high-ranking Stasi (former East German secret service) operatives, or Libyan agents who organize terror attacks using dedicated people, for example Palestinian and Arab "freedom fighters." The terrorists who actually commit the crimes are what von Bulow calls "the working level," such as the 19 Arabs who allegedly hijacked the planes on September 11. "The working level is part of the deception," he said. "Ninety-five percent of the work of the intelligence agencies around the world is deception and disinformation," von Bulow said, which is widely propagated in the mainstream media creating an accepted version of events. "Journalists don’t even raise the simplest questions," he said adding, "those who differ are labeled as crazy."
Just as important is the Zionist ideology, well summarized by Yitzhak Shamir, former Israeli Prime Minister:
"Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war… We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle. First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today…"
These documents should convince any intelligent reader of the importance of examining the possible Zionist connection to the 9/11 terror attacks. There is much more evidence, and those with questions and interest in additional documentation are welcome to request it. Equating legitimate research and critique of those shielding Zionists from public inquiry using the canard of anti-semitism is a typical attack of people who, ironically, are unashamedly racist, anti-Arab and in some cases as documented in the Talmud, anti-Gentile. Instead, those same people should be denouncing the racist Zionist doctrines and distancing themself from Jewish religious teachings that promote or allow racism.
http://www.progressiveconvergen...seflagmail.htm
FALSE FLAG TACTICS:
These "Terrorists"…who are they…really?
The news media tells us that they are all Musilm Extremists – Al Qaeda. Are they?
How many of the purported terrorist attacks that have grabbed the headlines might actually have been "false Flag operstions?"
I never knew what a false flag attack was until the past three years or so, when I began to do my own research to learn the truth behind the lies we are fed by the infotainment networks who claim to provide "news."
A false flag attack is strategic. The strategy works.
If you can make it appear that your enemy has attacked you (or your closest ally) in some grand and heinous way, it provides justification to strike your enemy (or those you wish to invade).
This is a TACTIC. If you don’t know how frequently this tactic has been used, and to what ends, you really need to begin studying how many time false flag operations have been employed, who was behind them, who was warned of the attack in advance, who actually carried out the attack, how they did it, what the media response to the attack was, and what the political and military responses to the false flag attack were.
Many of the "Terrorist Attacks" that you believe were committed by "Muslim Extremists" or Al Qaeda", weren’t.
If that statement is true, doesn’t that cause you to at least do the research I am recommending here, so as to form your own educated opinion about this entire subject of "Terror" and how it is being used to manipulate the political and military landscape?
Nuclear war is going to break out very soon, and a false flag will be at the heart of it. Can we prevent nuclear war? Do you care enough?
"This campaign designed to prepare the American people to blame Iran for a possible upcoming nuclear terrorist attack fits the description of a Mossad false flag operation, especially because of Israel’s numerous, even flagrant recent violations of American nuclear security.
Israel’s long record of using terrorism and especially "false flag" terrorism – covert military operations designed to pin blame on an enemy – is extensive and well documented, beginning with the bombing of the Hotel King David by Menachem Begin’s Irgun fighters, through the Lavon Affair and recently includes the bust up of a phony al Qaeda cell that was in reality manufactured by the Mossad.
For those still under the illusion that Israel has always been a US ally, please note the USS Liberty Incident , wherein Israeli fighter planes and torpedo boats nearly sunk an unarmed US intelligence vessel in international waters, and also the US Army War College’s assesment of the Mossad: "Wildcard. Ruthless and cunning. Has capability to target US forces and make it look like a Palestinian/Arab act." – Washington Times . Even the US army acknowledges that Israel can and does engineer "false flag" attacks.
Citizens can afford to waste no time informing the President, the Pentagon, Congress, State Officials, FBI Counter Intelligence and the press that we are aware of the intent of this propaganda campaign and are not fooled. Recent Israeli and US efforts to publicly distance themselves from war plans for Iran may be part of a campaign to appear peaceful, such that a terrorist attack falsely blamed on Iran with the full force of the international media will look all the more brutal and undeserved."
http://www.progressiveconvergen...seflagmail.htm
Opening your eyes to the coming war against IRAN is not anti-Semitic.
Unless you are eager for a front row seat to Armegeddon, educate yourself, and let your voice be heard:
The Sunday Times December 11, 2005
Israel readies forces for strike on nuclear Iran
ISRAEL’S armed forces have been ordered by Ariel Sharon, the prime minister, to be ready by the end of March for possible strikes on secret uranium enrichment sites in Iran, military sources have revealed.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1920074,00.html
This is NOT about politics and it is NOT about religion. This is not about bigotry or hate of any ethnic group. This is about saving our planet from the mad men who are hell bent on destroying it.
Get educated and get involved.
Is The Sunday Herald a reputable paper?
What are we to make of this?
Sunday Herald – 02 November 2003
Five Israelis were seen filming as jet liners ploughed into the Twin Towers on September 11, 2001 …
Were they part of a massive spy ring which shadowed the 9/11 hijackers and knew that al-Qaeda planned a devastating terrorist attack on the USA?
Neil Mackay investigates…
THERE was ruin and terror in Manhattan, but, over the Hudson River in New Jersey, a handful of men were dancing. As the World Trade Centre burned and crumpled, the five men celebrated and filmed the worst atrocity ever committed on American soil as it played out before their eyes.
Who do you think they were? Palestinians? Saudis? Iraqis, even? Al-Qaeda, surely? Wrong on all counts. They were Israelis – and at least two of them were Israeli intelligence agents, working for Mossad, the equivalent of MI6 or the CIA.
Their discovery and arrest that morning is a matter of indisputable fact.
It has always been a long-accepted agreement among allies – such as Britain and America or America and Israel – that neither country will jail a “friendly spy” nor shame the allied country for espionage. Chip Berlet, a senior analyst at Boston’s Political Research Associates and an expert in intelligence, says: “It’s a backdoor agreement between allies that says that if one of your spies gets caught and didn’t do too much harm, he goes home. It goes on all the time. The official reason is always visa violation.”
What we are left with, then, is fact sullied by innuendo. Certainly, it seems, Israel was spying within the borders of the United States and it is equally certain that the targets were Islamic extremists probably linked to September 11. But did Israel know in advance that the Twin Towers would be hit and the world plunged into a war without end; a war which would give Israel the power to strike its enemies almost without limit? That’s a conspiracy theory too far, perhaps. But the unpleasant feeling that, in this age of spin and secrets, we do not know the full and unadulterated truth won’t go away. Maybe we can guess, but it’s for the history books to discover and decide.
http://ww1.sundayherald.com/print37707
9/11: did Israel sacrifice the twin towers?
On November 2nd 2003, The Sunday Herald published its investigation into the mystery surrounding the five Israelis seen filming as jet liners ploughed into the Twin Towers on September 11, 2001, asking whether they were part of a massive spy ring which shadowed the 9/11 hijackers and knew that al-Qaeda planned a devastating terrorist attack on the USA.
The story exploded onto the international agenda, attracting record numbers of visitors to this website and provoking a stormy debate that raged across the world’s media. To give readers a flavour of the investigation’s impact, listed below is a selection from the hundreds of news organisations, weblogs and newsgroups that responded to an article that woke a world from its slumbers.
http://ww1.sundayherald.com/np/911mystery.shtml
Is it really so impolite to demand the truth?
It’s really impolite to Post
BBUUUUUULSHIT
The obvious problem with connecting Zionists and 9/11 is the question, "How could a Zionist ever persuade a Muslim to commit suicide in a Zionist’s behalf?"
Is it suggested that the hijackers were not Muslims?
Even if the buildings came down from sabotage, there’s no reasonable doubt that the planes hit the Twin Towers and that everyone died (plenty of doubt about the Pentagon).
RLM – I have doubts this was a Muslim Jihad as the bu$h admin. would have us believe.
Cached: Center For Cooperative Research – Mohamed Atta
Before September 11, 2001: Hijackers Drink, Watch Strip Shows on Eve of Attacks
A number of the hijackers apparently drink alcohol heavily in bars and watch strip shows. On September 10, three of them spend $200 to $300 apiece on lap dances and drinks in the Pink Pony, a Daytona Beach, Florida strip club.
While the hijackers had left Florida by this time, Mohamed Atta is reported to have visited the same strip club, and these men appear to have had foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks. [Boston Herald, 10/10/01]
Marwan Alshehhi and Mohamed Atta are seen entering the Hollywood, Florida, sports bar Shuckums already drunk. They proceed to drink even more hard alcohol there .
Atta and Alshehhi are seen at Sunrise 251, a bar in Palm Beach, Florida. They spend $1,000 in 45 minutes on Krug and Perrier-Jouet champagne. Atta is with a tall busty brunette in her late twenties; Alshehhi is with a shortish blonde. Both women are known locally as regular companions of high-rollers. [Daily Mail, 9/16/01]
A stripper at the Olympic Garden Topless Cabaret in Las Vegas, Nevada, recalls Marwan Alshehhi being “cheap,” paying only $20 for a lap dance. [Cox News, 10/16//01]
Several hijackers reportedly patronize the Nardone’s Go-Go Bar in Elizabeth, New Jersey. They are even seen there on the weekend before 9/11. [Boston Herald, 10/10/01; Wall Street Journal, 10/16/01]
Majed Moqed visits a porn shop and rents a porn video. The mayor of Paterson, New Jersey, says of the six hijackers who stayed there: “Nobody ever saw them at mosques, but they liked the go-go clubs.” [Newsweek, 10/15/01]
Nawaf Alhazmi and Khalid Almihdhar often frequented Cheetah’s, a nude bar in San Diego. [Los Angeles Times, 9/1/02]
Hamza Alghamdi watched a porn video on September 10. [Wall Street Journal, 10/16/01]
University of Florida religion professor Richard Foltz states, “It is incomprehensible that a person could drink and go to a strip bar one night, then kill themselves the next day in the name of Islam … People who would kill themselves for their faith would come from very strict Islamic ideology. Something here does not add up.” [South Florida Sun-Sentinel, 9/16/01]
The elephant in the room. I daresay I believe there is something to this. I have visited Conyer’s website a few times in the last month. A poster was commenting about Israel and then the administrator of the site banned the poster. Why? There was a lot a commenting back and forth..I got the message loud and clear that Israel was a subject ‘off limits’ on that site. Why?
I have a lot of respect for Rep. Conyers, but question banning comments about Israel on his blog. This only leads me to believe that there is indeed something going on, being covered up. I think some of the posters here are getting very close to the truth. I have always believed 911 was an inside job. Too many unanswered questions.
The book "The New Pearl Harbor" by David Griffen points to many contradictions of what happened. Then then are the myriad sites on the web (and of course other books) that have done the same. Griffin’s book was written in ’04 and he does not mention Israel as a player. Griffin is a Professor of Philosophy of Religion and that may be the reason he didn’t venture there or perhaps had yet to make a connection.
The information coming out now is so beyond my understanding of what I thought this Nation stood for. I knew those in charge were corrupt and had been forever but I still clung to the fact that we had an inkling of decency. I guess der leaders, whoever the heck they are, have zero credibility, zero. M4 aka: Alice N. Wunderland
#54 RLM I just re-read your comment and see you mentioned Griffin. Guess I better pay closer attention when I post. He most likely talked about much of what he wrote. M4
Re: M4 #62
I have no doubt that Conyers banned the discussion of Israel’s involvement in 9-11 for one simple reason: fear of being called an anti-Semite. it is the flaming tire around the neck of any politician in this country. I read a booka few years back titled "They Dare to Speak Out" – a documentary that followed the careers of ten or twelve politicians who questioned US support for Israel via funding of the Israeli armed forces, the Palestinian issue, and the power of the Jewish lobby. All of these politicians essentially had their careers destroyed because they became targeted "anti-Semites". It is clear in the book that none of them were – yet they had the temerity to even pose the question.
That is why Conyers removes the Israeli debate. It isn’t even about 9-11, that is just a sub-issue. Nobody wants to have the debate, period. To engage in it is suicide.
For Merifour: I haven’t read Rev. Griffin’s book, but I’m sure the subject matter closely tracks the speech he gave at the University of Wisconsin-Madison that was shown on C-SPAN a few months ago. He got a standing ovation. I don’t recall that he suggested any Israeli connection; his approach was more on the order of, "We haven’t been told the truth, because X, Y, and Z don’t add up."
Griffin is a low-key individual and highly credible. He outlined a case that the Bush administration at least allowed the 9/11 attacks and possibly was behind the whole deal. Other posters have noted many of the same points: 1) No building has ever collapsed downward from an impact at a high level, 2) A third building went down that hadn’t been hit, and 3) From the physical evidence, the Pentagon could not have hit by a large plane.
Some posters hit on the "holy grail" of America’s problem. It’s the one no one is permitted to discuss. Questions need to be asked about AIPAC and the OSP in the Pentagon. We have traitors selling America out in all three branches of government and the central thread seems to be loyalty to a foreign government. That foreign government is Israel. Many questions need to be answered concerning this strange entity called Israel? Whose has that kind of influence where they can control our congress, our media, our elections? Who controls Israel? We need to follow the money and get to the financiers who are running this show. But alas, the public is barred from conducting this inquiry
Leave it to the New York Times to be behind the curve in world events. It almost looks as if the editors had been reading our blogs here.
Today’s edition has a story by Elisabeth Bumiller titled, "21st-Century Warnings of a Threat Rooted in the 7th." It seems Rumsfeld and General Abizaid (top commander in the Middle East) have been going around warning of a "caliphate," which Rummy describes as "…a totalitarian Islamic regime that reaches from Indonesia to Spain." Abizaid told the House Armed Services Committee that among the caliphate’s goals is the destruction of Israel. Ah, so Joe Lieberman is right after all!
Seems to me that a few popes faced the same threat about eight centuries ago. They called it "the Crusades." Ali Baba and the Thief of Baghdad have now rearmed, it seems, and that’s why we invaded a sovereign country, Iraq. Of course, it’s taken Rummy and Abizaid almost three years since the invasion to come up with this rationale…meanwhile over 2,100 Americans have died thinking the war in Iraq was about WMD, or uranium from Niger, or a link between Saddam Hussein and 9/11, or creating a democracy there.
At least when L.B.J. phonied up the Gulf of Tonkin incident to justify Vietnam, he had the decency to say from the start that it was all about stanching the spread of Communism.
The reason that "victory" in the "war on terrorism" is a foggy notion, in the sense that the reason for the invasion of Iraq is tied to it, is of course manifold. That is because it is one body with many heads.
But the bottom line is not foggy. It is about who will continue to exercise power and national will in the world today and tomorrow.
I think it is frivolous to debate the issue without a full understanding of the nature of oil … in the sense that oil is the lifeblood of power in the world today.
Religion is not the lifeblood of power in the world today nor tomorrow.
A sea change is taking place as the notion of peak oil sinks in to the public brain and cognition. It is as if the world has been diagnosed with a terminal disease. The doctors came in and said "you are going to die because your blood is disappearing and there is no replacement for it". Denial ensues.
There is no great demand for religion like there is for oil, in the sense of what is the lifeblood.
Take away oil and all current empires fall and fail in a fortnight. Take away religion and it will reappear quite quickly … it is a renewable resource as long as mankind exists.
So the discussion of the projection of power into the middle east, where the lifeblood oil is, is frivolous without the fundamental understanding of the foundation of modern power.
Every military tactic and strategy is founded on oil. Every day at work, the keyboard we type on, the computer we use, and the food we eat, are based upon the lifeblood we call oil.
Add to that the factor that oil barons are even more addicted to it and are in power, and a complication arises. Even if we are not addicted in the sense we would rather use renewable resources, they certainly are not. It challenges their opulent life styles and world view. Their egos. Their very being is challenged seriously.
So, the eastern and western worlds are aligning. And oil must be factored in because the military might, projection of power and prestige, and the very existence of economy is also based on it.
Which empire, east or west, lasts the longest is determined by who has lifeblood the longest. As the supplies diminish and death looms, so does war.
Religion … whether Zionism, Christianity, Islam, or the long list of other religions, will survive after the oil is gone … so long as humanity also survives.
Dredd, thank you for spelling it out (for me) in such staight forward language. The reasons are so simple when you state it that way. I am waiting to see the movie Syriana, I understand from the previews that this movie explains alot about what you are talking about. I may be wrong, not seeing it yet. The movie is fiction, lets the viewer come to their own conclusions. I am surprised it has not been ‘banned’.
I have read that through out history there has always been a movement to preserve knowledge.
Many artists disguised knowledge in there writings, paintings, and just plain went ‘underground’. Symbols were used frequently to convey information to those that knew what was happening, a form of communication. I believe bushco uses a form of this in his speeches ie: Mission Accomplished (double meaning..one for the people-we have won Iraq, one for his friends-we have won America) this being a tool used against the people. Hollywood on the other side give us information as a form of entertainment (fiction). Same principal, subtle message, and then it is up to each one of us to interpret the ‘hidden’ message.
Each of us must reach deeper inside ourselves, to that place where discernment resides so we can sort out the Truth from the Lie. We must learn the art of interpretation of Symbols. I once read that everything can explained when one learns that ‘language’.
Regarding your post #64, SR, I did not know about the problem you stated. Someone did say during the discussion, that JC could not be connected with anything suggesting anit-semitism. I understand now why the poster was banned. I do not remember he/she was saying Israel had anything to do with 911, but was questioning U.S. support. Again, I may be wrong, I have not been back to look at what was actually being said. Appears I am late to the game on this one. M4
I lost all respect for Lieberman when the shit weasel laughed at the video tape that the chimperor made of himself looking for the WMD’s in the Oval Office. Yeah, 2,000 dead soldiers is real funny chimpy. Liberman can kiss my ass.