The facts in the indictments against Libby support an indictment for outing an agent. I posted the law here earlier. The facts strongly support such a charge.

And certainly there is factual support for conspiracy counts ... ie indictments for conspiracy as well.

So I really want to know if Fitzgerald requested an indictment for outing Plame and for conspiracy.

Also if he requested an indictment against Rove.

If he did and the grand jury did not do so see my post #11 above.

If he did not request such indictments, several scenarious arise:

1) he plans to ask a newly impaneled grand jury to do so;
2) he was compromised and all agreed Libby would take the fall;
3) he screwed up;

I await his news conference shortly before I form an opinion.

Nevertheless, he was not a wimp in the sense he brought 5 counts adding up to 30 years in prison.

And I ask the question, why would Libby, who is a sharp lawyer usually, risk up to 30 years in prison for nothing? WHAT WAS HE COVERING UP?

Can we get a congressional investigation? Why was Libby lying? Who is he protecting?

Libby is himself a lawyer (Columbia Law School graduate, 1975). He isn't stupid.

The simplest explanation might be the best: He's a fanatic, too, who believes along with Cheney that Iraq had to be conquered, that she really did have WMD and was seeking uranium from Niger, that Saddam Hussein was linked to Osama bin Laden and 9/11, and that given all of this, nothing would stand in the way of the neo-con agenda.

Anyway, Merry Fitzmas to everyone. There's another reason to celebrate today. On October 26 Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman wrote about the G.A.O.'s findings in re Ohio's hackable machines. A scathing analysis, which essentially says, "It was a simple matter for a handful of people to access vulnerable machines and flip as many as 800,000 votes in Ohio on Election Day."

I can forward the text by e-mail to anyone interested (reach me via my website, robertlockwoodmills.tripod.com) I'm sending it now to Brad.

And still another reason to celebrate. The G.A.O. findings coincide with the indictment of Tom Noe on different (but almost certainly related) charges.

Merry Fitzmas!

Fitzgerald said during his press conference this afternoon that the espionage law should only be utilized in very narrow circumstances. This indicates he wasn't absolutely certain Libby could be convicted of violation of that law. He appears to have gone with the other indictments to gain a more certain conviction. His voice and some vague words indicated he felt certain something very bad has happened and he didn't want Libby to get off scott free because he was charged with the wrong thing.

Chicago wins the World Series and Fitzgerald wins the World Championship (game 1).

Maybe the certainty of these charges leading to convictions would have more effect on Libby, leading him to offer more information to get a plea bargain (lesser charges or shorter sentences). If Libby were to flip he might provide some very important information on even larger issues (why was Plame to be outed, who was behind it, who was involved in the conspiracy, etc.)

Well, it's not the wham-bam-thank you-ma'am we were hoping for--at least not yet. But anything that casts a critical eye on the NeoCons is good, and this is far from over.

I wonder if Rep. Conyers will be able to make any headway in his investigation--or if they'll simply be stymied and ignored. Without subpoena power, what can Conyers do? We'll see. I like how Conyers implies they're going to look into all the lies. Do they dare touch the Big Kahuna--9-11? We shall see...

Dredd #1

Looks like #1 is the correct answer

Jo #2

John Conyers calling for investigation - see the story at the top of this blog.

Oh happy happy joy joy!

If Conyers were running for Pres, he'd be the only breathing person in DC worth voting for. With Fitz as his VP. What a ticket!

The investigation had "sand thrown in it's eyes" by Libby (a quote from Fitz.) So, based on the eventual truth that Libby and only Libby will have to tell, and the discovery of his reasons for lying, the investigation will proceed. And we all know where it will go. It would have been premature to go further at this time - IMHO. Must get the sand out of one's eyes first.

I love the irony here - now Bushco will see what patriotism really means.

Oh, and it was soooo refreshing to see someone on TV who was not lying. God how refreshing!

Merry Fitzmas!!

and we don't need any BI-PARTISAN investigation, because, as we all know bi-partisan is by it's nature PARTISAN.

A full, thorough and INDEPENDENT investigation. Fitz gets to pick the invest. team! Now THAT'S fair.

Updating the main item above throughout the day as information comes out from various sources...Just in case you hadn't noticed

Anybody know a site where the press conference has been archived for viewing?

{ed note: No advertisements in comments. Comment deleted.}

BlueBear2 #6, And post #1

Sorry I goofed and referred to "post #11 above" in my post #1. The actual post #11 is in another Brad Blog thread (link here).

After hearing Fitz I am convinced that he was compromised. I do think, however, that he believes in what he did. Not indicting Rove. I mean, it appears that he choose not to ask the grand jury to indict Rove.

That grand jury is gone, done, and over forever. That is, the 23 persons who indicted Libby are done.

I think he knows a lot of things we do not know. That our national security is very much at stake in the long term because the world has reached the peak of oil production, and that we are on the downside. Oil is from this day (or some day a few years ago, or a very few years from now) an evaporating commodity.

And if you cannot grasp what that means for the world and for you, then just skip it.

But what it means is that grave danger is lurking. It means that nations are going to have to deal with the fact that they have believed the oil empire's words too long, and that they lied to us.

All they can feel is their need for power, wealth, and domination. They are, at present, centralized and embedded in the US. Where military power is centralized. Where military power is paramount.

And Iraq is the 2nd largest source of oil reserves in the world. It is also the LARGEST untapped source of oil in the world. It has become our emergency supply and our emergency backup.

And there will be, and currently is, a fight for it. Iran and Syria surround our supply and therefore our security. They are threats. They have united in a pact and we have united with Israel.

A fight is looming. There is extreme and grave danger afoot because the oil industry, which Bush and Cheney head now (in the sense that they have their fingers on the mushroom buttons), cannot provide what they have promised.

It is clear that all this is being done covertly and in a climate of lies. The public knows this as the polls show.

I mean they know of the climate of lies but they do not know why such brilliant men are doing what seems stupid. Why someone would expose themselves to 30 yrs in prison, why the US which spends more money on spies than any other nation on earth ever has in the history of humanity, would not know of the fact that a tiny, weak, dictator ruled country in the mid-east had no nuclear weapons or other WMD's.

And why an oil baron president would say they did have WMD and that they were buying nuke material. Yeah, would lie to his people about it. It is because of the oil there and the fact that oil is getting more and more essential to national security.

That is why Libby and Rove were so passionate about Wilson saying they were lying about WMD, because the public may have not wanted to go take Iraq (its oil), which they believed would have greatly put us at risk. Without oil we die as an economy.

So I think Fitz was "woodshedded". Taken behind the barn and shown what the world and the US faces. He had to do something, and so he said Libby hid the truth from us so we can't go against anyone else and that is it.

Bush, Rove, et. al. are more aware of the grave danger and "must protect the american people" ... but they do not realize that this same thing happened in world war two.

We cut another nation off from oil and the war resulted. It will happen again.

The bottom line is that the people would have made a better decision. If democracy and freedom had been allowed to take its course we could have been free from the bias the oil barons are blinded by. Power and wealth.

We the people would have wanted a solution that might have taken the oil baron wealth and our own down for awhile, but in the long run a better solution could have been developed.

Now we have a world aligned against us more and more as time goes on, fat cat oil barons calling the shots and deciding what lies to tell us. And us knowing they are lying but wondering why and what about.

If Conyer's had his own party... I'd put my vote there rather than anywhere else.

He's the only one that springs to mind when I try to think of politicians with integrity.

Well said Dredd (#13)..

That's been the problem all along.. Oil companies allowed to dictate policy allowed -all- corperations to do it, now we're a society (and world, if the corperations aren't put under wraps soon) of greed and consumption. We don't wan't to "live our lives" anymore, we want "power and more stuff".. Life isn't valued anymore, people aren't gauged on their behaviours, it's all about "the bling" and how many people you can make "jump" at a word.. Just look at our politicians.. One is a criminal for lying about a blowjob, another is "non-news" when they lie to get us into war and kill 2,000+ troops and 10s of thousands of Iraqis.. Sanity has left the building..

I've been noting since the mid-80s when I first saw what was going on that we needed to stop letting "oil companies" tell us about alternative energy.. yet no one ever seemed to care. We are on the verge of being able to discover all kinds of "alternatives", yet the MONEY for that research keeps going to the ONE GROUP that does NOT want those discoveries to be made.. How do you give billions to OIL companies and ask them to cut their own throats? Then we have global warming from all that "oil", yet the people who profit from that are allowed to make descisions about emissions? Car companies get to shoot down laws that protect the planet and our longevity?

I know people who are of the mind "oil is replenishable, there's 500 years worth in Alaska.. we just have to go get it.. this 'peak oil' nonsense is just that". Makes me sad to see "intelligent people" believing something that has no evidence to back it up. Or believe "oil is replenishable" and not understand that it's a several thousand year process (or longer.. I forget.. but it's not like it's a decades long process). Is there oil in Alaska? sure.. enough to last 500 years? Are you nuts? I thought the best estimates were 10 - 15 years.. is it worth destroying all that land for 10 more years of something we need to get off anyway? Not to me.. instead of spending billions in destroying the land, why not put it into VALID research for alternatives? Give that money to UNIVERSITIES and let SCIENTISTS look for answers. Seems to me, history is full of discoveries coming from "scientists".. perhaps it's time to put them back to work? and not piss away what my end up being our last chance to break away from oil without a lot of pain?

But, as you point out Dredd.. make no mistake, Iraq IS ABOUT OIL.. If it wasn't, we'd have invaded some OTHER country.. some WORSE country (as far as human rights).. All this bullshit about "saving Iraqis" is just that.. bullshit. The United States of America does NOT just waltz into a country all willy-nilly, AGAINST international law, and kill/capture leaders and set up a "democracy".. It's usually done under the covers.. why do you think so many people hate us? People in this country tend to be the only ones in the world too ignorant to see what we do.. I recon it helps them sleep at night, eh?

Anyway.. it looks like the whole thing is going to end up being for naught.. Sure, put Libbey away.. but putting the hate-monger in his place that encourages torture? Yeah, THAT'S better.. and leave Rove and Cheney and Bush out of it? That also implies they will ignore the Niger forgeries and other lies told to get us to war. Sad.. instead of getting all the TRUTH out and doing the RIGHT thing to fix it all (alternative energy), it's going to be swept under the rug.. and will leave no doubt that millions are going to die in what will become nasty wars in the middle east..

We need to be *very* careful about calling for investigations --- Congressional, independent, or otherwise. Remember that a number of Iran/Contra criminals were never prosecuted because Congress granted them immunity to testify before their investigative committee. (Buncha those same people are still loose in DC, making trouble!) AND, it's not just Republicans who want to keep some of the WH dirty laundry out of the public eye; there are Dems, too.

So Congressional investigations which grant immunity from prosecution, and will most likely be closed for "national security" purposes? Then it all fades away, we never know anything, nothing is resolved, the bad guys are still in charge... uh uh!

BB2 and anyone else who would like to read it - The transcript of Fitzgerald's rambling is

here

I'm pretty disappointed. No charges about what was actually done for anyone? After two years? Just one weenie getting charged with covering it up.

will libby live long enough to see the inside of a cell ?

Whatever...
Fitz said that lying is very, very bad. That lying in this case compromises Nat'l Security.
He believes in America.
Without the bullshit.

At least Fitz didn't close it down,

Remember, our Government is very slow, but in the end it usually comes out in the wash
Patience people, patience

Dredd wrote:

... our national security is very much at stake in the long term because the world has reached the peak of oil production, and ... we are on the downside ... if you cannot grasp what that means for the world and for you, then just skip it.

But if you're interested, and you don't want to skip it, you might want to consider reading

The Oil We Eat by Richard Manning

Winter:

Oil we eat. I saved for later.

This is the beginning of the end for the Busholes. Does anyone remember Nixon's "enemy list" and how that brought him down? When Rove is indicted, I'll pop open a bottle of champagne.

re #23 Fine sentiments there, but I'm not touching a drop until they all hang.

A Concerned Citizen #17

Thanks for the text link.

I too was hoping for more, but then it's not totaly over yet from all indications:

Rove is WH Official "A"
Fitzgerald keeping focus on Rove

Hopefully this will be the catalyst for other investigations and a turnover next fall at the mid term elections which will free us from this bunch of crooks.

You know. I guess I have major faith in Pat Fitzgerald.

Blue - You're quite welcome. Rove worked out a deal, had to be. It's all a smoke screen. This administration has done it for 5 years now. They have total power and they just sacrifice a lamb every now and then, while the main players continue this nightmare.

Our complete legal and "justice" system is a joke, at every level. Yes, I guess I'm pretty bummed.

I thought people might just, you know, be held accountable for leaking the identity of a covert CIA agent. Silly me.

That was very deep, DREDD. You're scaring me.

...and SAVANTSTER, too. Excellent!!!

DREDD/SAVANTSTER:

If Libby is "sacrificing" himself for "the cause", then these guys are not only criminal, but criminally insane! And I can't believe they are running our country. But, if they are this criminally insane, it wouldn't be far-fetched to link-up the whole electronic voting machine scheme to this...get in power at any cost (electronic voting machines), because "we know better" and "we need to invoke the PNAC plan for the good of America".

You have to agree with this, from what you've written above. The vote machines are in play here too. Something that huge cannot be off by itself totally independent from this intricate criminally insane plan you state above. Notice who the electronic voting machines got into office??? The Bush administration. Don't forget, you hack ONE office, the most important one, president, and then he gets to PICK an entire cabinet of neo-cons from the PNAC. When a president is "elected" (I use the term loosely), an entire cabinet is not elected but chosen by the president.

WP #21
Great link. Thanks very much.

This is why I have problems with our legal system.

Why is it that someone charged with a crime gets to complain about political offiliation? I don't get to pick MY judge when I get a ticket, or charged with drug use or murder or insider trading.. why does DeLay?

I think this is one of those "massively overlooked issues" in our country.. I mean, why aren't the right-wingers screaming about this too? This is setting a precident that allows "political criminals" to pick who decided their cases, and you will now move "politics into justice" even more than it is already. Dems will be looking for Dem judges, Rethugs for Rethug judges..

What a joke. Must be nice to be rich and above the law..

...and the biggest picture of all, is that the 1% rich/wealthy/powerful run our government, not us. The oil plans you state above benefit, guess who? The 1% rich/wealthy/powerful. And, as usual, the poor/middle class dupes are dying for them based on lies (the military)...

Sorry guys....I'm just "down". I was soooo ready for Rove to go . I wish I could see the up-side as much as you do. I'll keep hoping!
Emma

#23

Yes. The end is near for the BCFOL.

This is just how he does things......

There are numerous indictments all over the place, especially sealed ones against Cheney.....and they will not go forward until every member has flipped and boy are they flipping......Just like how George Ryan and all his thugs (all democrats) basically went down permanently....

There is now absolute grounds for Wilson to file a RICO suit.....And I pray that he does it for the entire country, rather than something like his "wife" or CIA problems.

Doug Eldritch

I halfway agree with the good doctor when he says

the President has no plan and no exit strategy

He's right to say the president has no exit strategy, but he's wrong to say the president hasn't got a plan. Of course there's a plan. Are you kidding? It's been in plain sight for more than a decade.

And the reason there's no exit strategy is because The Plan doesn't require one. In fact it requires the opposite.

Is it really possible that Howard Dean is unaware of The Plan? Or is he simply blowing smoke up our butts the same way as the president and so many others always do?

I don't know the answer to that one, but in any case, here's a good introduction to The Plan:

Few writers are more ambitious than the writers of government policy papers, and few policy papers are more ambitious than Dick Cheney's masterwork. It has taken several forms over the last decade and is in fact the product of several ghostwriters (notably Paul Wolfowitz and Colin Powell), but Cheney has been consistent in his dedication to the ideas in the documents that bear his name, and he has maintained a close association with the ideologues behind them. Let us, therefore, call Cheney the author, and this series of documents the Plan.

The Plan was published in unclassified form most recently under the title of Defense Strategy for the 1990s, as Cheney ended his term as secretary of defense under the elder George Bush in early 1993, but it is, like Leaves of Grass, a perpetually evolving work. It was the controversial Defense Planning Guidance draft of 1992—from which Cheney, unconvincingly, tried to distance himself—and it was the somewhat less aggressive revised draft of that same year. This June it was a presidential lecture in the form of a commencement address at West Point, and in July it was leaked to the press as yet another Defense Planning Guidance (this time under the pen name of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld). It will take its ultimate form, though, as America's new national security strategy—and Cheney et al. will experience what few writers have even dared dream: their words will become our reality.

The Plan is for the United States to rule the world. The overt theme is unilateralism, but it is ultimately a story of domination. It calls for the United States to maintain its overwhelming military superiority and prevent new rivals from rising up to challenge it on the world stage. It calls for dominion over friends and enemies alike. It says not that the United States must be more powerful, or most powerful, but that it must be absolutely powerful.

The Plan is disturbing in many ways, and ultimately unworkable. Yet it is being sold now as an answer to the “new realities” of the post-September 11 world, even as it was sold previously as the answer to the new realities of the post-Cold War world. For Cheney, the Plan has always been the right answer, no matter how different the questions.

I'm quoting from an essay called Dick Cheney's Song of America. It's a remarkable piece, written by David Armstrong and published in 2002 --- even before the war in Iraq started. It has long been featured at Information Clearinghouse, as well as other websites. As of Wednesday, Harpers has it online as well, in a format that's extremely easy to read. So please read the rest of it! ... and please share this link with everyone who says the president doesn't have a plan or an exit strategy, including the good doctor, if he's fortunate enough to be on your mailing list.

Regarding John Conyers... Congressman Conyers has lent his support to the current mayor of Detroit--who was determined to be one of the three worst mayors in the uSA. Since he did that, I take anything he says with less credence.

Sorry...

Winter, you are so right.

When are the Dems going to wake up? They pretend the PNAC doesn't exist. They pretend the Bushies are simply incompetent and not fixated on well-documented plans of global domination and corporatocracy... they they did not come into office having petitioned Clinton to invade Iraq and that they did not ever write they needed "a New Pearl Harbor" in order to roll out their sick dreams of American hegemony and permanent NeoCon rule.

Why? Why? Why?

WHY won't they fight election fraud head-on?
WHY do they parrot the bullshit official 9-11 story?
WHY do they keep their heads in the sand?

Hillary Clinton, Harry Reid, Howard Dean, Nancy Pelosi... your codependent silence on these issues has enabled these bastards to take over our media, our government and killed literally hundreds of thousands of people. That's GENOCIDE. Every last one of them should be ashamed of themselves. Harry Reid used to be a boxer. Well, Senator Reid, I say it's high time the gloves came the fuck off.

Dredd... I agree 100% with all you said, except... I am not certain--yet--that Fitz was compromised. We can only pray, and this is from a guy who doesn't pray, that he knows what he's doing.

Sorry, but I just can't help myself...

"The spirit was freedom and justice
And its keepers seemed generous and kind
Its leaders were supposed to serve the country
But now they won't pay it no mind
'Cause the people grew fat and got lazy
And now their vote is a meaningless joke
They babble about law and order
But it's all just an echo of what they've been told
Yeah, there's a monster on the loose
It's got our heads into a noose
And it just sits there watchin'..."

(Steppenwolf)

So sue me.

WARNING: IF YOU WANT IMPEACHMENT DO NOT GO TO IMPEACH.ORG FOR YOU BUMPER STICKERS. On the subject of honesty and resonsibility. I have TWICE been burned by Impeach .org. After paying for bumper stickers, they were never delivered and they will NOT answer my emails of inquiry and protest.
Any one else having trouble with them? We all want impeachment, but Impeach.org is being slimy.

Dolly, I got my Impeach Bush bumper stickers from impeachbush.org. No problems. They also have a really awesome lawn sign. They actually sent me two by mistake. So I have an extra one. If anyone wants it, e-mail me.

Hey Dubya, I fart in your general direction

FAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRTTT

yeah boy, thassa how I spell relief

Bush's statement from his state of the union 2003:

"The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

shows absolutely that the Administration positively knew this false information that they were planting into Bush's address was fake prior to him uttering a word. Explanation of my logic: "The British Government has learned..." We now know that the White House got their forged documentation directly from Italy... therefore, "the British Government..." had nothing to do with the Niger docs and was a phrase completely made up and inserted into the speech to lead everyone off the track of where they really got their forgeries... and perhaps, also, to add fortitude to their own claim; i.e. - if the British Government advises us of something, we will believe moreso than if an Italian known to be a scam delivers the information... If they knew that statement were the truth, they would not have "covered" it by implementing the British Government into the statement; as well, it would seem the Italian Govt. did not, at that point, want to be "named" as the deliverer of those forged doc's. If the Italian Govt was not knowingly embroiled in this deception (of forged docs), they would have wanted the credit for delivering the intelligence to the White House.

It would be interesting to learn the response from Blair and his government after that State of The Union Address, when Bush implicated the Brits as the originators of this info. Given Blair's part in this fiasco, I am certain that whatever the initial response was, complacency followed...

Whether Bush knew his whole administration (Cheney, Rove, Rice, Rumsfeld, Libby, Hadley, and apparently Powell) had conspired to pull the wool over his eyes and use him as a talking head for their treachery or not is of no consequence. AGAIN, BUSH is either the biggest idiot and laziest chearleader for the NeoCons this nation has ever known or he is the most extremely crooked and corrupt president ever... either way (and probably a combo of both) he deserves to be impeached --- prison, if possible, seems more fair.

If you link this lie together with his overthrow of the 2000 election (AGAIN: What part of "he's crooked" didn't everybody get at that moment? ... for that I am angry still with the dems for backing down), his crooked shinanigans in fixing the vote in Ohio in 2004, the documents that clearly show that while Governor of TX he was already planning on invading Iraq "once" they put him in office, all the the facts that have still been hidden and still allowed to be confused over the 911 attack --- and the "crew" he is relying on to run his presidency --- this is one of the most horrific conspiracies our world has ever witnessed.

well #45 what part of Gore-evitchki only wanted to count votes in demo precincts and didn't give a damn about counting "all votes" doesnt seem crooked to you? Get over 2000 you people are worse than the sudeten germans

no worries about #41, Stan, that's a keeper!

thanks for the kind words, jIM #39 and Catherine #31.

thanks also to several others for some monster contributions to this thread.

regarding the questions put by jIM in #39: those are excellent questions. Four years ago I would given them the benefit of the doubt and said maybe they're just unaware of what's happening. But now, after all that's happened in the past four years, I think it's quite clear that they're complicit in the crime. And make no mistake: the USA is in the midst of committing the greatest of all crimes.

I could rant about all this all night but who would want to read that? Instead please have a look at a very recent piece by Kurt Nimmo, as excerpted at The Whispering Campaign:

Slugging It Out Over Peanuts

Sorry, Nate #46, but your broad-brush smear campaign doesn't prove anything except your own ignorance.

that's a very narrow brush and you choose to avoid the unpleasant fact with an ad hominem attack.

#45 good point
#46 ...nate is this you in the following story ?
" We headed to the vigil at the White House for our hours long wait in the freezing cold. There was a man there who had several signs which among them said: "Saddam loves Cindy." This man didn't care that Rumsfeld (or Rumsfailed as I accidentally called him on an interview yesterday) was buddy, buddy with Saddam and gave him or sold him tons of WMDs before he became our enemy. I told this man that he didn't bother me, and he told me I don't bother him either. Well, if I don't bother him, why did he come down and make signs and march for hours screaming that I kill our soldiers? We found out why. He was making 60 dollars an hour to do so from some non-profit, right wing group. He said he would switch signs if we gave him more money. "

no sorry, wasnt me. haven't left wisconsin in weeks. Why shouldn't Saddam love Cindy? She's got a fine rack and even mass murderers need love sometimes.

bummer $60 an hour for talking shit and here you are doing it for free

Sure Nate, I bet you and beezle bob planned the whole thing with your bullshit ad-hominem group to somehow blame it all on Gore.

By the way, AL GORE counted all the votes. He even was elected, and had the other votes stolen from him in an obscure Supreme Court battle. And stood for breaking apart the THIEVES called the Federal Reserve system, something none of the other crooked politicians would do, especially Bush or Clinton.

So put a sticker in it and suck on that.....and then shutup and go join your handicapped traitors in prison, for aiding them in their own treason. Nobody else can do that for you!

Doug E.

#52 & #44 separated at birth in the crack house

#53: no dear heart he did not ask for a recount in all florida precincts. Just remember God loves you but your mama and I dont. But just to be charitable, here's a nice wet KISS

Unfortunately guys, I have to kind of agree with Nate (as much as that pains me).. From what I was able to gather, Gore in 2000 did -not- ask for a full recount, only a recount in "certian districts".. Personally, that kind of pissed me off too. One would think he'd want -all- districts recounted.. It would have gone a long way to validating his position..

Though, on the OTHER side.. You don't really have to call for an entire state to be "recounted" if you only suspect "cheating" in a few counties or districts. I can see "both sides" of this argument, and I think hindsight is 20/20.. It would have been best if he asked for "all districts".. he didn't..

However, Nate.. that in NO way implies "fraud" on Gore's part.. what it implies is "certian district's counts stank".. not that Gore was cheating, but that he suspected foul play in those districts. Basically, if you know a district is 90% "party X" and the vote count shows only 60% voted for X, you get suspicious.. right? I don't know the details of that bit... but I DO know, Bush's chicky-bitch STOPPED the count in districts that were being counted.. and turned it over to some Judges. No matter how you look at it, the "vote" wasn't properly counted (you can't stop a recount, if you ask me.. either do it or don't, don't switch gears part way through, like they did).

So.. like I said.. I can see both sides, and hindsight is 20/20.. but targeting doesn't indicate fraud as Nate suggests.. And a "full recount" might not be justified or allowed (without specific charges)..

Dredd, I'm afraid you might be right about Fitzgerald but hope you are not.

Sen. Kennedy has a diary on KOS and asks for American citizens to sign his petition on getting answers to Senate questions by demanding Bush release the information on the lead up to war. Gotta keep trying - Churchill said "Never give up. Never. NEVER. NEVER."

ttp://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/10/28/173835/72

~~We need answers, not cover-ups, by the Administration about these serious issues. Thank you for all your support in trying to get the truth.

Click here to show this is not the end.

Cheney, Libby Blocked Papers To Senate Intelligence Panel - The National Journal, October 27, 2005

Tags: indictment, Libby, Cheney, intelligence, Senate, Iraq, war (all tags)

Dear Friend,

Scooter Libby and Vice President Cheney withheld critical documents in the Senate's investigation of the use and misuse of intelligence in the decision to go to war and in the management of the war.

These documents must be handed over, because the American people deserve answers.

Please join me and Senator Kennedy; ask the White House to hand over those documents.
http://www.tedkennedy.co...ion/iraqdocuments/fqzukq

The American people know the high cost of this misguided war --- 2,000 U.S. soldiers dead, more than 15,000 wounded, hundreds of billions of dollars spent with no end in sight, and a continuing shameful effort by the White House to silence those who try to tell the truth about the war.

We need answers, not cover-ups, by the Administration about these serious issues. Thank you for all your support in trying to get the truth.
http://www.tedkennedy.co...ion/iraqdocuments/fqzukq

Thanks!

~~

http://www.tedkennedy.co...e/petition/iraqdocuments

We Need Answers not Cover-ups

I ask the White House to turn over all documents withheld from the United States Senate during its investigation of the use of intelligence during the planning of the Iraq war.

My Comments on Kennedy's Petition:

We also need the documents behind the Downing Street Minutes and Memos. Rep. Conyers stood at the gates of OUR White House locked out with other members of Congress when they tried to deliver the more than half million signatures of American citizens demanding release of this other information that took the US to war under false pretenses and have cost so many lives.

The American people deserve all the documents witheld for the US Senate to make a decision in the most important question they ever face - to send the young people of US citizens to fight a war.

This Indictment Is Not the End

by Senator Edward M Kennedy
Fri Oct 28, 2005 at 02:38:35 PM PDT
Today's an ominous day for the country, a new low since Watergate in terms of openness and honesty in our government.

This indictment is far more than an indictment of one individual. It's an indictment of the lengths to which Administration officials were willing to go to cover up their failed intelligence. It's an indictment of their distortions about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and their serious blunders taking us to war and their vindictive efforts to discredit anyone who challenges their misrepresentations.

Live links to Sen. Kennedy's petition and diary on Kos:

http://www.tedkennedy.co...e/petition/iraqdocuments

http://www.dailykos.com/...nly/2005/10/28/173835/72

I've got a question:

Am I right in understanding that Fitzgerald may STILL indict Libby (and/or others) for outing Plame?

The way I interpreted Fitz during the news conference was that the "obstruction of justice" charge supercedes and effectively "blocks" the ability of the special prosecuter from finding out if the "treason" charge is warranted.

If Libby is found to be guilty on these 5 counts of perjury and obstruction of justice, then --- if I understand Fitzgerald correctly --- Fitzgerald will determine if Libby should be indicted on treason charges?

Is this a correct interpretation?

I clearly heard Bush mention the terms "due process" adding "innocent until proven guilty". Give me a break! :crazy: Why not "rendition" Libby to some third world pest hole precisely as can be done to any other American at the whim of GWB under the (unPATRIOTic) act? :hehe: What a crazy nation we've become with due process and innocent till proven guilty for some--but not all. 5 gets you 1,000 Bush pardons Libby before any cell door more than clangs closed to shut off the "background noise".

Stop, I don't know, but if I'm interpretting what Fitz said today, it's very hard to prove that Libby or anyone who might have leaked Plame's name did so knowing that she was covert. That is why that charge is so hard to prove - Fitz would need evidence that the leaker knew of her status.

But, that makes me wonder... the whole point of outing Plame was to get back at Wilson - but if Plame wasn't covert, what damage would be done by "leaking" her name??? None! To me, that says the leakers did know she was covert.

And I've read that Libby was obsessed with Wilson, in discrediting him.

I've also read that someone in the admin. had docs on Plame that were marked with a red "S", meaning secret.

This is just the beginning, I hope.

I'm just disappointed that the growing trend of indicting republicans on charges of "conspiracy" has been broken with, given how immensely apropo it is what with their matter-of-routine-by-now habit of laughing off opposing views as the fanciful delusions of conspiracy theorists. That they were well on their way to a world record of at least half of all registered republicans in the entire country being hauled in on the charge gave the darker, more irony-appreciative side of my sense of humor quite a gleeful reprieve from all the nagging bothers of life these days (especially with the super extra free added mega bonus BS that comes automatically with a truthful outlook--which has been known, at times, to snowball from there to somewhere near the clock-tower-sniper-rifle-solution level...)
I'm not entirely certain which is funnier: the fact that their talking points are unraveling as they go down, or the fact that it even reaches down to the level of their cute little brush-off/discount joke about 'those darned silly paranoiacs and all their whacky ideas about some kind(s) of mass conspiracy(s) that is/are aligned not only against them, but even oppose(s) the very laws of this great country of ours...HARHARHAR' and turned even that into thin air for them to throw the insulting cherry on top of their nice little injury sundae.
For what it's worth, I personally like to fashion my tin foil hat into a nice, cute little cup and drink my koolaid from it. It kind of courteously bundles the conspiratory concepts for the republicans, and we all know how those nutty republicans just MELT over easily packaged and labeled stereotypes for organizing and sizing up the majority of all the 'other' (but ESPECIALLY the 'lesser') elements of American society. It's just a little service I provide for them since I almost feel sorry for them at the next stage of their process when they can't remotely figure out which pigeonhole to stick me into, given that I can't stand Democrats, am extraordinarilly conservative, and yet somehow sit diametrically opposed to 99% of their agenda on everything...and usually, on the rare occasions that we share a common goal, I'm almost always nauseated by their brand of implementation. How can they argue with someone who tends to agree with them, yet has no shortage of [usually LOUD] arguments to keep em on point at all times (TALKING point that is...). Hell they can't even fathom it, much less name it, gather intelligence and build a front of opposition to this somewhere-beyond-the-rainbow dweller...tsktsktsk.

Hannah (#61):

It seems that the "obstruction" charge played a big role in determining whether Fitz would charge Libby with the "outing" charge.

FITZGERALD: You need to know at the time that he transmitted the information, he appreciated that it was classified information, that he knew it or acted, in certain statutes, with recklessness.

And that is sort of what gets back to my point. In trying to figure that out, you need to know what the truth is.

So our allegation is in trying to drill down and find out exactly what we got here, if we received false information, that process is frustrated.

Again, if that is the case --- that the obstruction of justice helped Libby avoid a charge of "treason", then that's pretty fucked up.

Adding to my post above, it seems likely that Cheney and our "friend" Mr. John Bolton were involved, along with some of their underlings. Lots of connections between Cheney's and Bolton's offices. Hmmmmmm...

(#63)...then again, if Libby is found guilty of these obstruction charges, then the threshold is that much closer to crossing the line of the espionage act.

I've been told on other blogs that Fitz can add further charges along the way.

I'm hopeful that if Libby is found guilty --- TREASON is next on Fitz's agenda.

Afterall, for a crime of this magnitude, Obstruction of Justice is not enough.

#63 Stop: Ah, I see your point now. We now have to hope that someone who is facing charges will turn and have evidence that all these jokers knew that Plame was covert.

I still maintain that they must have known her status, otherwise what harm would be done to Wilson by naming his wife? I assume if Plame were a secretary for the CIA she would not have to hide that from anyone.

Anyway, this goes beyond harm to Plame and Wilson. All covert agents and foreign contacts have to wonder if they will be next to be outed if they don't toe the party line. Potential recruits of the CIA might reconsider that service. It's a matter of betrayal, definitely a National Security issue.

Hannah (#66):

Exactly!

That is why Libby (et al.) should be charged with treason.

Knowing her status? Good point! Also, why would he commit perjury and obstruction of justice if he did not truthfully know her status at the time?

I agree that Libby's indictment is only the beginning. It's big news, and Rove isn't out of the woods by any means.

The indictment is especially meaningful from a media standpoint. Newspapers and TV have deferred to Bush, in part because his administration
has denied access and wreaked vengeance on reporters who wrote "bad things," such as the truth.
Joe Wilson is a perfect example.

No longer. The story now has a life of its own. The Times has been humbled by the Judith Miller episode, especially her reliance on Chalabi. And even a few TV people (like Chris Matthews) are starting to say things like, "What this is really about is the fact that we went to war on false pretenses."

That takes us back to the Downing Street minutes, which are also now fair game for the media. It's far, far from over.

...Katherine #68
nicely put.

Fitzgerald's openning shot...

Time To Talk Like Grown-Ups...

A Criminal Lawyer's View on Where Plamegate Stands

Let's talk like grown-ups.

Let's dispense with clever talk, legalisms, and political spin for just a moment, as much as some of us may enjoy all three of those things.

Patrick Fitzgerald believes numerous officials in the White House--to include the Vice President of the United States and the President of the United States--were involved in (depending upon which official you're discussing) either the leak of classified information or criminal acts aimed at covering up that leak.

The problem he faces now is proving offenses--each of which are indictable and/or impeachable--against the twenty most powerful men and women in the world, just about all of whom are members (honorary or participating) of the White House Iraq Group (WHIG) which of late lied this nation into a never-ending foreign war.

This is perhaps the tightest cloister in the world, folks. Cracking it ain't making pancakes.

**MORE**

KIRA you gotta love
"That's why conservatives are going to bed tonight, all over this great country, absolutely terrified."
as a closing line.

I think it's sick, how rightwingers will sympathize with people who commit treason. It delegitimizes everything else they have to say. It's proof that they put the GOP ahead of America. They put "left or right" ahead of "right or wrong". They don't realize how sick and sad they are. It is obvious that the Bush administration lied us into the Iraq War, and these zeolats do not care. All they care about, is that Bush is a Republican. If Bush turned out to be Hitler, these sick people would still be sympathizing and making excuses for him. What will it take for these sicko's to realize right from wrong, and forget about party? You can't do anything worse, than kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people in a war based on lies.

The reason the tide is turning against all of these neo-con criminals, is because enough time has passed during this PNAC plan and 9/11, for Americans to start being compassionate about it. The more time goes by, the more Americans can picture their own son or daughter slaughtered in Iraq for lies, the more they can picture their own wife being "outed" for political purposes by these criminals, the more they can empathize with what Cindy Sheehan must be thinking, and more and more Americans are reading about Repubican after Republican getting indicted for this war on lies and vote fraud. This is the most corrupt political culture in the history of America, and I think Americans are getting hip to it. And I agree, that the Democrats are almost as bad. The difference is that the Republicans cause hundreds of thousands of people to die, with their lies. I think the tide has irreversibly turned against the Republicans. And it's due to Americans having more compassion about what's going on, now that 9/11 is worn off. What scares me, is that it's just about time for Bush & PNAC to have another 9/11 because of this, or at least try.

Comment # 50. Do you remember the march that was put on by the Pentagon? Did you notice their t shirts seemed to match and they seemed aimless? I wondered if they were paid to participate.

#26 Colleen - As another military mom, after seeing and reading the news conference, I can't seem to share your confidence. Wish I could, and I sure hope you're right.... the whole thing just seems like a joke to me. Fitzgerald used the "opine" word at least twice - who else do we know who uses that word lately? Made my hair stand on end. Meanwhile, my son leaves in several weeks, to return for ANOTHER full year in that hellhole thanks to stop-loss, and everyone's going to continue to sit around okay with letting our children be picked off one by one, because of this corrupt administration. I sure had some very intense hopes that things were turning our way, possibly in time to help keep him from having to stay the full year this time. I'm extra disappointed I think, because of that. I see there is no justice coming in the next 3 years (or possibly ever?) for anything, or anyone honest and true to our founding constitution and values.

Our legal and tax systems and laws have had too many holes punched in them, from the decades of corrupt special interest/corporate whores running our country (both parties). Everything is now completely full of holes. Shit just flows everywhere, nothing is containable or accountable any longer.

The criminal's rights have been overtaking the victim's rights, in all arenas, since I was a child in the 60s. The rights of the rich have been overtaking the working public's for more than a decade, maybe longer. Valerie, and all CIA agents deserve better than they are getting. Would be very interested to know how many CIA agents and/or workers of all kinds have retired or quit since this exposing happened.?.

Yep, guess I'm a little bummed, Im sorry. Things will look up again I hope.

Kira - excellent link, thanks! That's putting it plain and simple, taking all the bullshit and sideshows out....here's the scoop.

You might also notice in Fitzgerald's statement that he DID NOT USE THE PROPAGANDA faked numbers about our dead soldiers. 'Just 2,000' GAG. He said more than 12,000 men have died, or to that effect.

I have brought this to the attention of Brad, but he prefers to use the PROPAGANDA NUMBERS. :plain:

Here it is. The defense. This is from the AP.
WASHINGTON - The lawyer for Vice President Dick Cheney's former top aide is outlining a possible criminal defense that is a time-honored tradition in Washington scandals: A busy official immersed in important duties cannot reasonably be expected to remember details of long-ago conversations....The lack-of-memory defense has worked with varying degrees of success in controversies from Iran-Contra to Whitewater.

RLM #72 - thank you for you post, that gives me some hope, some things I hadn't thought of. Maybe things are still moving forward. Thanks )

I hope Rove is indicted too, but it looks like a deal has been made.

Libby covered up with lies, so he really is "Cheney's cheney".

As we have said lies and coverup is the heart and spirit of this admin.

They are so powerful they can lie their way out. Lying pays off.

Clinton was impeached for that but was not convicted. It shows how powerful criminals are now ... there will be no impeachment of him or Cheney.

Fitz and crew have now said that they can't go any further now because Libby lied and the truth cannot be known. I can't buy that.

Even my desperate desire to want a government that tells the truth and to live in a country like the America I want is not going to distort my mind and heart so that I bury my head in the sand.

I am going to say what is on my mind ... hoping I am wrong at the same time, and holding out hope.

But justice has not yet been done. Two years investigation and Rove skates. Not good enough.

What was Libby covering up?

Is John Conyers the only one we can have substanciated faith in any more?

It seems he's more of an independant beacon of integrity. With the two parties we have, we rarely have a choice to pick someone like Conyers to represent us.

We need a party full of people like him.

I know people are scared that it would dilute the opposition to Republicans... but... I can't help getting the feeling America needs a 3rd party... one based solely on integrity and centrism (a balance of policies, part conservative and part liberal).

But could this EVER be possible or plausible against the Repugs?... or would it just dilute the so-called strength of the DNC/Democrats/etc.??

Fitzgerald is not done, guys. He said so. I believe him.

Now let's us--ALL of us--seize the moment.

I'm writing TIME magazine--which seems to be more willing to hit hard against the Bushies--asking them for a feature article on the PNAC and their plan for perpetual war. I think this is an attainable goal.

And then I'm going to do the same to Michael Isikoff and Jonathan Alter at Newsweek.

Let's all of us these next few days find 15 minutes for a bit of activism. Forget the cable stations; the print media is more responsive. Remember hard copy letters and faxes work better than e-mails, which can be deleted instantly with a click. Be polite and stay moderate in the letter. This is key.

RLM #72

I hope you are right about Rove. But let me say the following.

The grand jury that went away was very pissed. They gave Fitz everything he wanted. Obstruction of Justice is a ten year max, and the strongest of counts. Perjury is a very strong charge with 5 years. Juries do not come down with this unless they are pissed.

My feel is that they would have indicted Rove and they would have come down with the outing charges.

They were denied that because Fitz said he has to decide if he can prove it or not. That was his out. He decides if he can prove it in court, so that is his control point.

The grand jury most likely was not aware that they could have done it on their own. A federal grand jury is more limited, but still they could have done it had they been aware. Lay folk in the dark.

So from reading the indictment, listening to every word Fitz said, and thinking about it, I come to the conclusion that #2 happened in the list on my post #1 above. The grand jury was pissed at Libby and Rove ... but now they are gone.

A new or different grand jury will not have two years to hear all that was done. They are less likely, not more likely to indict Rove.

Just to tie this in to another critical issue, I expect the Repubs will spare no expense, dirty trick or buy offs to ensure that the voting system stays as much as possible just as it is through the 2006 vote. The danger of course is that if Dems win the majority again, they will drag the big fish (Bush) into court. So we need to redouble our efforts to get a verifiable election system in place. Any way to tie in the obvious malfeasance with TreasonGate to what has gone on behind the scenes with control of vote flipping, etc. ?

It pains me when liberals are illinformed or under informed, and therefore incapable of countering Bushivic lies.

In Florida, in order to get a full recount, you must first do a sample recount of a few districts, and then, if there's a significant amount of discrepancy, you then ask for a FULL RECOUNT. In Gores case, he would therefore want to ask for recounts in counties that favor Dems, which he did. The SCOTUS stopped the sample recount (thank-you queen bitch Sandra Day O'Connor) and no full recount was ever done by the guvmint.
But the press did do a recount under Freedom of Information. On 9/12/01 the results of that recount were announced: GORE WON. But of course, no one was paying attention, certainly not the MSM.

Please people, do your research and know this: The Bushitas are always wrong, everytime, on everything, THEY ARE ALWAYS LYING AND SPINNING and the MSM is not your friend.

Rove and Libby are quilty of treason and if you read the indictment timeline it's all spelled out. Don't let the lack of treason charge throw you off base. This prosecutor knows exactly what he's doing. Rove is going down.

Stop reading just the talking points, ours and theirs, and take the time to read the legal papers. Fitz made it all so plain and clear that even your typical Kahn, with their under 100 IQ's, could get it. Well, maybe not, but you guys certainly should. Fitz is a very smart man, but he speaks and writes in terms that the layman can grasp. Go to the source.

OTOH, Dredd (#87) may be dead on right too. I'm just trying to be optimistic, m'kay.

You don't "out" someone who isn't 'in'.
They knew Plame was NOC or they wouldn't have bothered to "out" her.

It seems clear Rove was involved in disseminating the information the same as Libby. I'd expect that after Fitzgerald clears up the last details we'll see an indictment of Rove.

Nobody believes either of those fellows sneezes without being told it's okay by their superiors.

Their superiors are Cheney and Bush. Libby worked for both, but I think Rove only works for Bush.

If they were told to out Plame then there's a conspiracy of one or both of those superiors with Libby & Rove.

If Libby gets 0-30 years for his obstruction and perjury charges then the superior(s) should get at least 20-60 years each.

This would probably be beyond the scope of a mere special prosecutor. It's a job for Congress to toss 'em out. Despite Fitzgerald saying he won't write a report, this will make it's way to Congress.

Would this Republican controlled Congress, under any circumstances, toss our their own 'fearless leader'?

As usual, it probably is a matter for the public to vote in new blood (House and Senate) who can get the job done.

The G.O.P. will no doubt dramatize Fitzgerald's statement that the indictment of Libby may provide no comfort to those who either support or oppose the war. They'll say, "See, this has nothing to do with Iraq. It's all about criminalizing politics."

Wrong. Fitzgerald was making a narrow, legalistic statement that pertained only to the indictment itself...Libby lied under oath and obstructed justice, but no motive is implied (a motive need not be proven) and none should be inferred INSOFAR AS THE INDICTMENT ITSELF IS CONCERNED.

The actual charges aside, everyone is entitled to ask as a matter of curiosity, "Then why did Libby see a need to obstruct justice and lie under oath?" The answer can only be, "Because he was covering up an orchestrated plan to discredit Joe Wilson by outing his wife, and/or to warn anyone else who dared challenge the neo-cons' case for invading a sovereign country."

The multiple indictments are wonderful news…

http://gaelicstarover.bl...top-of-this-senator.html

http://www.petitiononlin...m/noorkhan/petition.html

Stop George: That's not fucked up at all, that's called the law.

Fitzgerald is thurough in everything. If Libby was fed false information, including information on Plame that was false from the real perpetrators of the treason.....then he should have to admit that in court.

He should also be forced to admit he broke the clause 793c which is the one the prosecutors can easily determine was broken. Both Libby, Rove and others have broken this clause. It makes it even easier for the Jury and new foreman to indict, because the case paperwork and evidence is already all completely compiled. They can follow that and get everyone involved now if they like, including whom fed Libby the false information to obstruct justice.

Also, Gore did not do the recount the media did it and they recounted all precincts. Gore won them all.
Doug E.

comment re #56 (and Nate):

The Gore v Bush Fla recount --- if you remember correctly: went back and forth with the Bush election attys running the clock in any manner they could and "waisting" the time by 1) filing mountains of motions that held up the recount (ie restraining orders, etc.) and2) hiring GOP operatives from DC to bus down and storm/THREATEN many of the polling recount headquarters; disabling police etc and basically, convincing poll workers to close down recount centers (until court decisions on the way up to the Fla Supreme Court were rendered) In any other "recount" the recount continues throughout the court procedures --- but when Bush couldn't get his way in court, that's when "thugs" were sent in to terrorize the recount offices. He got his way any way he could, the recounts were effectively closed down for days at a time, disallowing a timely recount. It was all quite rapid fire, with lots of confusion and televised supporter talking points injected verbatim over and over again, and very well calculated. The standard Bush M.O. By the time all had transpired and consultations with various county commisions and polling staffs, it was quite apparent to Gore that "many" of the districts were not going to be cooperative with his request(s). He filed his requests in those counties that were not volatile of the situation. BUT: UNDER FLA LAW: the election results must be recounted throughout the whole population (ie all counties have to be coutned) in order to protect the rights of all citizens of the state. The info that was given to his campaign via Harris' office was incorrect on his requests for recounts. Little known fact, but the instructions she/her office gave him either proves she is incompetent or just the corrupt little partisan that she is. Depends on which side you are looking at the situation from. The fact is, by the time Bush's attys asked the US Supreme Court to intervene, it was not newsworthy to report of the error in method of counting only certain counties vs the whole state, or what would have prevailed if the State Supreme Court's ruling was allowed to be upheld as is stated under States' Rights... (each state is responsible for its own elections, making Bush vs. Gore the most controversial ruling of our Supreme Court in the history of our country... paling Roe v Wade et al way more than is currently publicized.

The fact remains when multiple [unofficial] recounts of the state were later done, all of them arrived at the same conclusion: Gore won both the state of Fla and the US popular vote. And then when you add in all the Fla residents that were denied their right to vote (10s of thousands), Gore won Fla by a landslide. Therefore, Bush won nothing; he was appointed by a political court, whos offsprings now have high ranking Admin jobs, among the many other perks hid by blind trusts for the time being...

Further: Ohio is slowly being analyzed and proven (along with many other "precincts" througout the country) that voting fraud was prevalant in many complicated versions, always aiding the "Bush" vote via everything from under supplying voting machines in heavily democrat precincts, to "losing" thousands of ballots (only in dem precincts), to purposely programing Diebold machines to count votes that had not been intended for Bush to go to him, to dozens of other variations of voter fraud --- all to "up" Bush's total votes --- that one will take so many years to be figured out, that Bush will have been out of office for quite awhile by the time the truth is told. And then it will take a force to take all the singular conclusions spread throughout the United States and combine them into one "whole" for the truth to be told in an effective manner. The media for the most part, ignores all of these (thousands of local) investigations. Why should they uncover it. Bush is good for corporate media tax cuts and profits for their shareholders --- who Nate seems to forget: corporations hold only one responsibility: to their shareholders, not to the customer... in the case of media that means the "viewers." Therefore, what you watch on corporate media is only presented to you to up their profit and thus, very bias towards a president that has aided their profits.

Regardless, no matter how you look at it: Bush used crooked deceit and connections to get into office (and to hang on to the presidency during the second election...) and I remain: who the hell would believe anything that man says after such an initial act of disrespect and disregard when he raped our country's constitution for his own purposes... using our Supreme Court as his personal power broker... and he continues his pompous disrespect as we speak:

...Monday he will be in Italy (an emergency trip, previously unplanned) to meet with his conspirators over there... doesn't appear to be any other reason for the trip except to get the Niger story "straight" before the investigations dig deeper into his deceitful acts of treason that led our country into a war for [his] profit. Funny how he has to go to Italy as soon as the proof is revealed that the forged documents in fact were transacted through the White House from Italy --- not "British Intelligence" as he previously maintained (with a straight face!) in his buildup to an evil war.

Former CIA official Lee Strickland, who was responsible for all disclosure activities at the CIA as chief of its information review group:
"You want to keep the politics separate from the intelligence". Strickland added, the resulting disclosure of a covert operative's identity is not "an insignificant political matter _ the tit-for-tat in politics." Rather, he said, blowing an operative's identity can jeopardize any number of intelligence contacts and recruits.

"In essence, you endanger any operation that this officer has touched, any person that this officer has touched," he said.

One further note re Fitz's addressing only an indictment against Libby for conspiracy and perjury, etc. --- and not treason, and no other indictments handed down at this point:

His initial grand jury was running out; and with a cummulative 30 years sentence possible and 1.5 million in potential fines for the five charges against Libby, that nobody else was indicted yet points only to the fact that Libby can be properly prosecuted without "giving up" important information that if published via a more inclusive indictment could tip off further portions of his investigations into the total matter.

As with prosecuting a drug dealer or other porition of an "organized crime ring" the first to be indicted/arrested are only charged with seemingly minor offenses. Since this investigation remains ongoing, and it was stated within the indictment that Plame's identy as an undercover CIA agent was not known prior to being outed by this Admin, it appears to me that Libby is not the main target in this investigation, but that that portion of the investigation has not been given up on. Libby's not that important, but rather his indictment is a "showing" threat to the other parties. By the reactions of the White House, it appears they are aware that Libby is not the only one going down.

I read a columnist's warning that the Bush White House will be actively putting out: lots of distractions and smoke and mirrors, and lots of P.R. campaigns in the coming months in an effort to dilute coverage of Libby's indictment. It's going to have to be extremely "targeted" with talking points akin to brain washing.

One thing Bush can't do at this time (with three years left in his presidency) is pardon Libby. Because, if he were to pardon Libby this early on --- without knowing the outcome of who else will be indicted (which I think it is a good thing only the one indictment came down right now) Libby would not have the option to take the 5th when ordered to testify if Bush pardons him. So Libby, and probably Rove (and maybe a few others includintg Hadley) if indicted, will not be able to avoid convictions like the lot under Bush's father's administration were able to get away with re the Contra scandal. Bush can't pardon them --- then they would become a liability to his own cover.

I believe Mr. Fitzgerald has decided to punt.

Regarding the more serious crime of conspiring to out the identity of a CIA NOC covert agent, I believe he has decided to turn that part of his investigation over to Congress, and any interested Congressional committee...along with any questions about any Bush lies about WMD in leading up to the war in Iraq.

In other words, he kept his indictment limited to a specific individual and only covering a bare minimum of charges.

Why?

Are additional individuals in the Bush administration going to be charged?

Is the conspiracy to out a CIA NOC covert agent, which I'm certain Mr. Fitzgerald knows about, going to be addressed in the next grand jury?

Or, did Mr. Fitzgerald, in trying not to be an "activist" prosecutor decide to leave the more treasonous issues for Congress to address and resolve?

Which means in 2006, we must kick out all the treason-enablers in Congress so we can get at all the treason-enablers in the Bush administration.

If Mr. Fitzgerald isn't going to hold the Bush administration to the fire, then it is up to all of us as concerned, patriotic U.S. citizens to hold the Bush administration to the fire.

Here's the best link that explains all the different groups who wanted the Iraq War, all for different reasons:

Groups/Reasons For Iraq War

All of these different groups could only start the Iraq War if they tricked the American people and the world into thinking there were WMD's. All other reasons were not good enough to start the Iraq War. So, Joe Wilson's article debunked their only reason...this is why they went after him full force, as well as anyone else who debunked WMD's. The MSM played a part in this as well, by having pro-war stories and interviewees vs. anti-war, approx. 90%-10%, instead of 50-50, according to the media monitoring group FAIR. And 9/11 was their "Pearl Harbor"...still think they weren't in on 9/11??? There's overwhelming evidence that the government's story of 9/11 is bullshit. By "the government", I mean the Bush administration. The same guys who lied us into the Iraq War.

Not sure if anyone's posted it yet.

Official A = Karl Rove

Peace!!!

I haven't had time to read all the comments here but I do want to stress something I did happen on in the comments on one of these threads --- someone said it's like peeling an onion. Each layer exposes what's lying underneath. The credibility of the bu$h regime is being called into question and it should continue to eat away at every American who has a conscience or the ability to understand (or the desire) the magnitude of corruption in the bu$h cabal. Since Katrina, the door has been opened a tiny bit for REAL news to seep into MSM reporting. PUSH IT!!!

The Dems should jump on this and get themselves on every talk/news show available and talk about the latest polls that show bu$h sinking like a rock and the fact that a clear majority say they would support a Democratic government rather than this Republican one. Where is this happening? I haven't watched regular TV in a long time, so I can't say it's not happening. I did watch Lou Dobbs last night and he's talking openly about the fact that it's frustrating that dissenting voices are not allowed to be heard. Is that some progress?

Now is the time for other political parties (other than Republican) to be jumping into action. WHO is in the running for the Democrats? As far as I can see, they are mostly the same as the neoCONS who currently wield the power on the Hill. It's unfortunate, but I see them hoping to gain the support from the mega-corporations who currently support the Repubs as their major claim to fame and power. This is what we are against.

Where is our ZORRO? We need a real hero for the common folk.

So --- back to peeling the onion --- I think more will happen from Fitz's work than we can see right now. As painful as it has been, this is only the first year of dumbya's 2nd term.

Things move much too slowly for me, and I'm extremely disturbed by the acquiescence of the Dems and others who should be representing We The People's desire for INTEGRITY in DC. I think it was Bluebear2 who linked to a poll that shows the American public doesn't really care about integrity. Shoot --- hold on, I'll find it:

Bluebear2 said on 10/26/05:

Another interesting item today:

In other words about 40-50% feel it is ok for our government to behave unethically and illegally.

This is one of the obstacles we are faced with.

Thanks to all of you who are actively working to unseat the criminals. NOW is the time to really go FULL STEAM AHEAD. Let's encourage (in other words, get out the whip) our representatives to make a move or lose.

NO MORE PUSSYFOOTING, eh?

PS Thanks for all the great links and comments (and thank you Brad for the excellent article!)

Also --- Jazzalog has alerted me to this petition at Sojurners' website:

TAKE ACTION, DEMAND THE TRUTH

(Here's the petition)

Demand the truth

Join with other people of faith in signing this petition to demand the truth about why we went to war with Iraq. This petition will be delivered to your senators and member of Congress. Then, tell your friends! We are trying to get 25,000 signatures by Wednesday.

Tell me more!

Send this petition to:

* Your Congressperson
* Your Senators

As a person of faith, I believe that truth-telling is a religious and moral value. When we lie, it eats away at our souls. The indictment of I. Lewis Libby, vice presidential chief of staff, raises serious questions as to whether we went to war based simply on massive intelligence failures, or whether there were serious efforts to suppress the truth.

I therefore ask you to form an independent commission to investigate the reasons that the Bush administration led us to war with Iraq. And though an independent commission will not bring back the 2,000 American soldiers and tens of thousands of Iraqis who have been killed in this war, it is a necessary step to finding the truth about why we went to war and restoring the honesty and integrity of the highest office in the land.

I had a long post about a personal expierence that shows why I have no faith in our legal system at all.. But, Kria pointed out the cruxt of it with that poll data.

-almost 1/2 of america- is perfectly OK with politicians breaking the law. They KNOW it's "illegal", but they don't think it's "wrong" (un-ethical means wrong, DESPITE the legallity). American's are morons.. fat, lazy, stupid, self-rightous pieces of shit.. Well, near 1/2 are according to that poll.

The mentality pushed on us by Corperate America and Politicians is "we work under different rules than you mere peasants".. And for some reason, the people accept that. For some reason, they are mystified by the "powers that be" and are content to let them shit all over us. The "United States" is dead.. the country that was founded under the Constitution, where all men are created equal, and the law applies to everyone equally, is dead.

And as far as holding a hope for getting Dems (or anyone other than the criminally insane Repugs) into office.. don't hold your breath. One of the -biggest- hurdles we have now is, the courts said "it's ok to lie about candidates in political advertising.. it's protected under the 1st Amendment".. WOW.. so much for Democracy.. even IF we get the machine issue resolved, the person that "lies the best" will be the one that convinces the public they are the right candidate. And we all know that in general, Republicans are better liars.. they have a huge headstart, and no morals..

I sure hope Fitz doesn't let it go with what we have, but given that there were LIES told in '91 to get us into the war, given that some of the people INVOLVED in the Iran-Contra scandal, given that KNOWN CRIMINALS are STILL running the show, I don't think much more is going to happen with this. The old tired "national security" and "would destroy our institutions" bullshit seems to be coming out again. It looks like we'll just sit here and watch it all be swept under the rug.. AGAIN.. and have to sit around and listen to the right-wingnuts say "see see see.. told ya it was nothing!.. WEEEEEEEEE"..

Hey Fitz.. prove me wrong. Do some good for this country and the world.. don't let these (rich, corperate bought) criminals walk.

am new, just testing

It's so depressing, eh Savanster? As much as I hate it, I have to say that I don't see much hope for our country (without some miracle) to recover from the last 15 to 20 years of abuse. I would love to see the US becoming more enlightened, but it is the school book definition of Conservative that is the most damning.

Conservative
adj 1: resistant to change [ant: liberal]
2: opposed to liberal reforms
3: avoiding excess; "a conservative estimate" [syn: cautious] Oddly enough, this one doesn't fit. I suppose it's because of the NEOCON modification to the Conservative/Republican Party /Kira
4: unimaginatively conventional;
5: conforming to the standards and conventions of the middle class; "a bourgeois mentality" [syn: bourgeois, materialistic]

The other thing you will see in the next generation is the effect of Thimerosal (mercury) in vaccines during a 12-yr. period here in the US and in China --- because once it was recognized that the vaccines were connected to autism, the ethically challenged US sold it's outlawed Thimerosal-laced vaccines to China. Just like what happened when we outlawed DDT - we then sold our DDT to Mexico and now we purchase and sell fruits and vegetables grown in Mexico and sprayed with DDT. This is the kind of crap we somehow allow to happen!!!

The dumbing down of Americans is real, just as the poisoning of Americans is real. We really are on our way to becoming extinct, because we are too fragile as a species to cope with the serious poisoning of our environment - from loss of our main source of oxygen (the Rain Forests and other oxygen-producing flora), the loss of our ozone layer (which protects us from radiation poisoning), the continued spreading of radiation (Depleted Uranium and other nuclear "tests" around the world), the destruction of our necessary wetlands/wildlife refuges and natural forested areas --- but stupid, stupid people only see their annual bu$h tax-cut (which amounts to about a week's worth of groceries - if that much) and believe the LIES.

So - how long can humanity survive? What will be the quality of life after this generation of greedy bastards live obscenely for their expected 70+ years? Enjoy it fucktards.

Well.. I attribute part of the problem to "religion".. People like Paul (and Bush, if you believe he's "born again") and, well, seemingly given that near 80% of our society "doesn't believe in evolution", -most- people.. seem to believe that "god will come and burn down the planet anyway, so why bother caring for it?" or "god gave it to us to use.. silly.. he'll give us more when we need it".. or "it doesn't matter if we destroy the planet and make life miserable while we're here, we go to heaven for an eternity of happiness when we die.. this 70+ years of pain and misery is irrelavant"..

See, that's the real problem if you ask me. Religion allows people to not take responsibility.. for them selves, for their world, for -anything-. On one hand they say we have "free will", but then turn around and say "the devil made me do it.. god will forgive me".. It's the ultimate cop-out. Not to mention, it lets weak-minded people sleep at night.. they don't have to waste any brain-power on questions like "why are we here".. that's answered.. "to do god's will".. or "are we alone in the universe?".. of course we are, the bible never talked about "aliens".. and even -if- there are aliens, we get to abuse them to our hearts content cause "they are just other animals that weren't directly stated in the bible"..

Religion may be a good thing for an individual to help keep them doing "the right thing" on a day to day basis, but it's a damn mess and problem when you are dealing with "the real world" and "longevity of our species". Why bother trying to fix the world when you can just rape it and disregard people "because god will fix it later"?

Well, Savanster, I see it as a group of people who aren't evolved (?) enough to understand the BIGGER message the religious savants and prophets have tried to convey.

I agree with you --- if religion exists as an excuse for abuse, it is being horribly misinterpreted (and it has been for thousands of years.) AND it is openly apparent in the current "right-wing" of government and those who have aligned themselves with them.

Here is an example of "capitalism" at it's best.. yet people are mad about "this" situtation?

See, here's what I don't get. It's OK for corperations to take tax money and use it to make more profits.. and sometimes at the expense of human life.. and certianly at the "diminishment of resources" of people (look at the oil/gas situtation where $12 billion went to them, they are making insane record profits, and prices are barely starting to fall after 8 months of screwing us).. but that's OK? But when someone who gets screwed by nature.. someone who's not "well off".. someone who actually NEEDS the money.. when -they- get something free from the government, it's some how "not the same" as what corperations do?

It's that double standard that pisses me off.. it's that MOST people see what happened in that article as "bad", yet those SAME idiots don't care that Halliburton is raking in millions of dollars in the wake of the SAME catastrophy.. Or that our government is pissing away billions and billions to corperations, but at the same time wants to pull money AWAY from the people who need it most..

This country is 100% head-up-it's-ass-backward.. People who are "ok" don't want to give up their money to "poor people" but are perfectly content to give BILLIONS AND BILLIONS to "rich people" who don't need it. Amazing.. And those SAME people don't think it's "wrong" to "break the law"..

Dumbing down of America? more than just a little..

Clarifying my point about those who "get" it about religion --- like Ghandi and Jesus and other highly regarded (among thinkers) "religious" figures. The danger comes when people parrot shallow words they don't understand, thinking they are in command of the true message.

Yes, yes, yes, Savanster. YES!!!

Lemme clarify my #105..

I think it's sad that someone is selling MREs on eBay for profit in the wake of the disaster.. That food should be going to people who are hungry, for free.

But, it's NO different than what the corperations do, and at the consent/cheering of the masses. I see no difference (which, by the associative rule of mathmatics, means I don't like what corperations do either) from a "strict" point of view..

If you're offended at what someone is doing with the MREs, you have to be offended at what YOUR LEADERS are doing with CORPERATIONS.. it's the same principle (and the Republican Mantra). To -not- be offended by both is hypocritical. (that's not to say that one is equally as upsetting as the other.. at least the "poor people trying to make a buck" is a noble cause.. much more so than MobileExxon getting billions in tax breaks when they made $10 billion in PROFITS in one quarter.. but the offensive part is people making profts off taxpayers and people's good will).

Exactly - we must - each one of us - hold ourselves accountable for the things we don't agree with in gov't.

AND I'm MAD about this:

Tons of British Food for Katrina Victims - UP IN FLAMES

EXCLUSIVE: UP IN FLAMES
Tons of British aid donated to help Hurricane Katrina victims to be BURNED by Americans
From Ryan Parry, US Correspondent in New York

HUNDREDS of tons of British food aid shipped to America for starving Hurricane Katrina survivors is to be burned.

US red tape is stopping it from reaching hungry evacuees.

Instead tons of the badly needed Nato ration packs, the same as those eaten by British troops in Iraq, has been condemned as unfit for human consumption. **MORE**

Also wanted to link to this: Edward Kennedy Statement

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Laura Capps/Melissa Wagoner (202) 224-2633

Today is an ominous day for the country, signifying a new low since Watergate in terms of openness and honesty in our government. This is far more than an indictment of an individual. In effect it's an indictment of the vicious and devious tactics used by the Administration to justify a war we never should have fought. It's an indictment of the lengths Administration officials were willing to go to cover up their failed intelligence, their distortion on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, and their serious blunders on the war. It is an indictment of their vindictive efforts to discredit anyone who challenge their misrepresentations.

The American people know the high cost of this misguided war --- 2,000 U.S. soldiers dead, more than 15,000 wounded, hundreds of billions of dollars spent with no end in sight, and a continuing shameful effort by the White House to silence those who try to tell the truth about the war. Dissent is the ultimate form of patriotism, and it's time we return to having an honest discourse in this country about changing direction and paying attention to the needs of the American people. The President should take this opportunity to do everything he can to heal the country by not interfering with the prosecution of this case or the continuing investigation, and by cleaning house at the White House to immunize the country against any further corruption and dishonesty. **MORE**

Great analysis (as usual) from Wayne Madsen on the indictments, and what's next for Fitz. This isn't over. Check out

www.waynemadsenreport.com

This guy has some serious connex (he's a former spook himself) and often gets the inside poop on what is REALLY going on. Well worth bookmarking his page!

Religion is just the old world power struggle ,they only taught the elite to read and write so they seemed "wiser" than the general population in order to maintain "their" power over the masses.
Ask yourself why the most "religious" countries are living in the worst condition on the planet and why after praying up to 5 times a day to some god ,they still get wiped out by the 10’s of thousands at a time ,by tidal waves ,earthquakes, legal wars ,radiation leaks ,levee breaches ,gas leakages from US companies ,famine ,AIDs …etc.

Corporations answer to no god and they are thriving.
Capitalism needs the consumer, but they (the consumer) have their wages pegged and rather than Global Capitalism raising the wages of the poorer countries ,it drags down everybody’s wages to the lowest hourly rate as the Corporations “out source” to the under developed countries .
The “Bottom Line” is the new god

#100 and #102, Sav and Kira, we are so on the same page. I have totally lost any hope that 'we the people' will ever regain our Country.

During the course of my studying and researching I read many books that stated that this time would come. Many were full of warnings that the future would be unimaginable horror. I began preparing for this time in history 10 years ago. I attempted to warn my friends and family that this was coming. No one believed me of course, after all, I speak nonsense and am one of those looney conspiracy theorists.

Many people still find my obsession amusing. Many still do not believe that what this evil regime is doing is going to affect them in every area of their lives.

I also believe that people of "faith" which I call "spiritually awakened" must reach a point of critical mass in order to effect change. I really believed that would happen and somehow we could stop the destruction heading our way. I was wrong.

I just think that we have failed. I still believe (getting metaphysical now) that some of us will go through this 'planetary intitiation' and survive on a soul level. One school of thought has it that those who don't, have a special place reserved for them and will get a change to start over, do it all over again. I am certainly not implying that I am one of those that will 'graduate' but I feel fortunate that I have been able to acquire as much knowledge as I have and hopefully will get some credit for that on the 'other side'.

I am so thankful that I have been fortunate enough to have the time to study and come to an understanding of a tiny bit of why we are here. Many have not had the time to do this. For 20 years I juggled a job, marriage, and my quest for knowledge. I longed for the day when I didn't need to work anymore and could have the time to devote my full attention to my studies. I was given that time and am full of gratitude for it.

I was also 'given the message' that we that knew what was happening would be the ones to inform the others. I have tried and failed. The dead in Christ (which is simply a word for Consciousness) do not seem to want to wake up. A few are and occasionally we see postings here and there but when I read about the polls described, regarding creationsim vs. evolution, I am disheartened.

I have said before and will say again, this great experiment has failed. We are a primitave people hardly evolved enough to join the Univeral Community. This civilization will be destroyed by us. Even the wealthy will have no solace when all is said and done.

Sorry for being OT again but had to share...it is depressing that rove got away and will probably continue to do so...my daily paper did not even have these indictments on the front page, but then it is owned by WaPo and 'who cares' right (except the 6 or 7 of us.

OT again, but I want to thank you all for all of your informative, thoughtful, and oftentimes brilliant posts. I have learned so much from all of you and though I am not a debater or journalism student, you have accepted me for who I am and that means more to me than you will ever know. M4

Savanster: Bullshit!!! And it's time to stop looking at those polls to tell america how they think!

No one knows or can tell america what they think, except the american PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!! And over 50% now in the new AP-Ispos poll, want Bush impeached for lying to CONGRESS.

Lets accept the facts: WE are the ones driving this force!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The blogs, the new media and the extended internet.

If justice lives or it dies, it depends on each one of us!!!!!!!!! Our own complacency or complicity, not anything else. And if every one of us out here in the blog world denounces this vile behavior as a violation of the law and public trust, they WILL BE held accountable. Tom Delay, Harriet Miers, Thomas Noe, Lewis Libby are all GONE thanks to us!!!!!!! Look on the bright side!

They can't come back, either unless WE give up...and unless WE decide the rule of law is worth nothing. Instead, if we keep smashing them into oblivion until they can not move anymore.......THEY WILL LOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!! And pay the price

Everyone needs to keep this in mind. Stay on the path of JUSTICE, do not listen to the traitorous trolls, and keep uncovering everything in sight and we'll win and this country will be saved. It's that simple. DO IT, instead of going to the sidelines and complaining.

Doug E>

Just took a look at the wayne madsen site. Read about rove's property value 'falling'. I took a look at the assessors value and anyone that has read their tax statement can see that NO VALUE was given for the 2400 sq. ft. SFR (single family residence) that sits on the land. The $155,000 was for the land only....wow, wish my County assessor only assessed the land that my house is on. House must be a real shack, a tear down, in realtor jargon.

Ok Doug.. You kind of lost me..

My point in all this is, the laws are failing us.. not because the laws themselves are bad (well, in most cases), but because the people put in charge of "enforcing the laws" aren't doing their job.. They are letting "rich people, corperate people, and politicians" get away with things that no "average person" would be able to get away with. How can you not concede that point?

There were KNOWN lies that brought us into the Iraq war in 1991.. The lies by the Kuwaiti Embassador (and his daughter), the fabricated photo of Iraqi war machines at the Saudi border.. KNOWN lies, confessed lies.. yet Bush Senior was never prosecuted, Powell was never prosecuted.. They were allowed to stay in office.. Powell was STILL THERE for -this- set of lies .. How can you say the system even -remotely- works when that kind of crap is let go? You'll note, Powell wasn't/isn't an elected official.. he's appointed to his post.. what can "we" do about that if the "legal system" doesn't remove him from power for us?

We can scream in the streets all we want. The prosecutors and judges will simply walk away and say "look, this is all I can do, this is all the facts bore out".. nevermind the KNOWN LIES in some of it, nevermind the obvious lack of drive to get to the truth in a lot of cases. Libbey lied? Ok, for what? At what point do we -stop- trowing up our hands when he sits in front of Congress saying "I have no recolection of those events, Senator", and "force a change"? How do we? Vote in a different Congress "next rigged election"? Put in -more- multi-millionare politicians taking bribes from corperate interests and religious groups?

You say we can make a difference.. but that's only in the limited scope of what our leaders let us do. If they aren't fearing for their lives, they will -continue- to engage in the bullshit "justice system" they've built. The entire thing is designed to let them have a walk and pass while "real people" get tossed into prison daily.

Wake up Doug.. We are back in the Feudal times now. The Barrons and Dukes run the show with mock trials and jokes of displays of investigations. $50,000,000 on a witch-hunt on Clinton over a goddamn blowjob, and only $600,000 on the murder of 3,000 people? How much was spent looking into the leaking of a CIA agent, only to (so far) come up with some dip-shit patsy staffer? Giving "deals" to the ones that should be put away the most? To see these pricks sitting at Congressional hearings saying "I have no recolection of those events, Mr. Senator" makes my blood boil. If -I- commited a crime and told the judge "uh.. don't know what you're talking about".. you better damn well believe I'm going to jail.. why are politicians given a pass? Even when we sign petittions, march, bitch, scream, try to elect different officials.. the SAME shit keeps happening. The SAME system doesn't seem to give a shit about crimes commited while in "office".. I just don't get that.

So, please.. Explain to me how "we" can do -anything- when the general attitude of the "people" is "politicians lie, that's part of their job"? Do you NOT see that that's the NORM? The "average American" doesn't EXPECT to see justice served on politicans, they HONESTLY BELIEVE it's PART OF THE JOB to lie, cheat, steal, and kill our Citizens. When us "not brain-washed" people speak up and try to effect change, the "average person" points and scoffs, then more join in to be "part of the in crowd".. Peer pressure isn't just for teens, you know.. Most people give in because they don't want to be "left out" or "made fun of".. Human nature works against us when people aren't educated and tought to be above it.

When the polls show near 50% of our society feeling it's "ok" for politicians to commit crimes, I ask you.. what can we do? Voting isn't gonna do it.. Screaming at prosecutor/judges that have closed the door and walked away from the investigation/hearing isn't gonna do it.. so what do we do, Doug? Keep making a fuss on Blogs? And if they close the door on this and le Rove walk, don't pull in Cheney/Bush? Don't go after the forged documents? Don't force Bush/Cheney to turn over documents so they can prove they knowingly lied? What can WE DO? Cause I'm really at a loss here..

Big Dan #28

Sorry. I am scared too, because it is halloween all year long to these ghouls. Have you looked into the eyes of the "Homeland Security" dude Chertoff? Am I dreaming or is he walking dead? Look at his eyes. He has no soul.

But we gotta take em down right and just. Not like they plan to take us down.

Honor.

Savantster #15 Thanks. Kira #102 Wow. I can't remember you being so intense. Hey we are in better shape today than we were yesterday. One psycho down babe. Chill. I am going to hang in there. You hang too ... we need you.

WP #21 Wow, Heavy article in your link. I have some too that show that in any room we are in, oil is there. Plastic is oil, pharmaceuticals (prescriptions) are oil, tires on cars are oil, clothing is oil, tractors that plow the soil use oil, etc. etc.

The oil barons have lied their way into our souls and they own us. Breaking up is hard to do (old song).

But that is what we gotta do. Stop being wimps and break these ghouls up. Send them to jail. One psycho freak at a time.

Good work Fitz. But you and I both know you have just begun. Got the stuff to finish it? Need help?

Well the Russions had a revolution and killed the the ruling elite. The French had a revolution and used the guillotine and killed the ruling elite. S'pose we could have one and send the ruling elite to Gitmo to be tortured by Blackwater. Second thought, maybe we should send them to bushes state's execution chamber. (Wonder how many of his rich friends benefitted from all the organs 'donated' by those he executed, they didn't even have to pay, am I in a rotten mood, or what)
Better get of this computer and give my mind a break. M4

Dredd --- What??? You make it sound like I fell off the deep end or that my wheels are coming off. I thought my rant was fairly logical

Heh, Kira.. I think it was the "fucktards" comment.. That, from you, kind of took me by suprise too

not that I disagree with it

Truthfully, I've been wanting to use that word for the longest time Just waiting for the right moment! Sorry if I offended anybody LOL!

Here.. here's another perfect exmaple of the bullshit going on in our country.

Texas Home of our shit-head in chief.. People going hungry in Texes.. -Worst- state in the Union for people at risk, says this report.

(damnit.. can't find the link on Rawstory now).

But, in a nut-shell, the government wants to take money out of USAID, a program started in the 70s that basically spends over a billion dollars a year on "food" from U.S. farmers (mostly corperate farms, from what I could see) and ships it overseas to "feed the hungry". So, near $2 billion of taxpayer money goes to getting the "extra" grain (caused by subsidies and this USAID program)/corn/crops to starving people around the world..

Yet, we don't make sure OUR OWN PEOPLE are fed? WTF is wrong with people in this country? We have farmers and shipping companies fighting the powers that be so they don't take $300 million from their $1.9 billion to buy "crops closer to the famines" (the government wants to buy foriegn crops in countries near the places food needs to get to, but U.S. corperate farms and religious orginizations that are getting tons of cash today are pissed .. ), but no one wants to give some money/food to the poor in THIS country? Starving people in THIS country is ok? (and one of the corperate farms has gotten over a billion dollars in 10 years... $100 million/yr from USAID..)

Doug.. -this- is why I don't hold much of a hope that "the system will work" to fix things. We have so many fucked up things going on that most people don't know about that it's not funny. 10s of billions or more of our taxpayer dollars are being shifted back and forth to corperate interests, and seemingly, some (who knows how much) of that is being spent on OUTHER COUNTRIES.. but not Americans.. I don't get it.

DREDD: Speaking of Chertoff, his mother was an Israeli citizen and flew for the Israeli airlines. Thus, by Israeli law, making Michael Chertoff an Israeli citizen. Does that make you feel "secure" about the head of our homeland security? He did a great job during the hurricane disasters, didn't he? All of these guys in Bush's cabinet and heading important positions, where do they come from??? It's amazing. Brown resigns, and they put the guy who said to duct tape your house there. Libby resigns and I'm sure his replacement will be some worse neo-con creep with scarey skeletons. All of these people are connected. You get rid of one, and they replace him with someone worse. Get rid of Ridge, replace him with an Israeli citizen. Powell resigns, put Rice in there. Unbelievable!!! That's why these rightwingers frost me, because they're "for" these creeps who are also hurting them, and they're too stupid to know it. These people are not like us. Sadly, they are not like these rightwingers/conservatives either, it's just that they're too stupid to know it. I think these people are criminally insane psychopaths, and I'm not kidding. And all it took was hacking into the presidential election with electronic voting machines, so Bush could pick them all, not us.

Gentlemen--

Brevity.

SANANTSTER: Why doesn't the media point out all the millions and billions of corporate welfare handed out, when the Republicans say the little guy has to tighten his belt to pay for the hurricanes, with cuts to medicare/medicaid? There's also no talks about the rich sacrificing their hundreds of billions of tax cuts to pay for the hurricanes, nor is there any talk by the GOP of cutting foreign aid. NO! The little guy has to "sacrifice more" with more cuts to social programs like medicare/medicaid. Does the media point this out? Absolutely not!

Savanster:

Start your own blog and talk about these things!!!!!!!!!! Nothing will be done until everyone knows about it, and gets fed up, you know that as well as I do!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also Fitzgerald is different, and you are certainly wrong!!!!!!!!!! He's on our side!!!!!! He's working WITH us not against us!!!!!

For the last time, he also is loyal to no politics just like most of us. He knows what he's doing and we need to let the rule of law go onward, and if justice is not served, that's when we burn down the houses and whatever else. NOT BEFORE WE'VE EXHAUSTED ALL OPTIONS!!!!

I can tell that the american people do care about whether justice is served or not, I hear it daily. It is the DISINFORMATION MEDIA who does not care, all besides CNN and a few patriots like Olbermann. And have been PAID not to care at all, no matter.....so they get their money

Doug E

This is what the Republican congress is doing to finance the corporate welfare, the riches' tax cuts, and pay for the Iraq War and Halliburton's no-bid contracts for Cheney:

medicare/medicaid cuts

food stamp cuts

CUT POOR PEOPLE'S FOOD AND HEALTHCARE!!!!!

PS --- I hope it was clear I was calling the greedy bastards f**tards.

I wholeheartedly agree that we should heal ourselves before we attempt to heal others. It really is ridiculous to try to do otherwise.

I was researching the Republican myth about their disdain for big government and ran across this blog with 2 excellent links to follow and well-linked info at the sites. Very good for debunking.

And still more republican myths debunked --

Here's a tidbit you will find if you follow the links:

On 3 April 2005, Dwight supplied an addendum to this series at his new home at Wampum:

Just For the Record Update

I have been meaning to update the Just for the Record series in which I looked at various measures of economic performance by the party of the President ( budget deficits, government employment, economic growth, unemployment, inflation, and job creation).

I have not updated because those posts involve a lot of tedious work crunching economic data. Fortunately, I no longer feel the need to update because Michael Kinsley has done the work (I bet he has a staff).

Federal spending (aka "big government"): It has gone up an average of about $50 billion a year under presidents of both parties. But that breaks down as $35 billion a year under Democratic presidents and $60 billion under Republicans...

Spending goes up faster under Republican presidents than under Democratic ones. And the economy grows faster under Democrats than Republicans. What grows faster under Republicans is debt.

Under Republican presidents since 1960, the federal deficit has averaged $131 billion a year. Under Democrats, that figure is $30 billion. In an average Republican year, the deficit has grown by $36 billion. In the average Democratic year it has shrunk by $25 billion. The national debt has gone up more than $200 billion a year under Republican presidents and less than $100 billion a year under Democrats...

From 1960 to 2005 the gross domestic product measured in year-2000 dollars rose an average of $165 billion a year under Republican presidents and $212 billon a year under Democrats...

The average annual rise in real per capita income --- that's the statistic that puts money in your pocket. Democrats score about 30 percent higher...

Democratic presidents have a better record on inflation (averaging 3.13 percent compared with 3.89 percent for Republicans) and on unemployment (5.33 percent versus 6.38 percent). Unemployment went down in the average Democratic year, up in the average Republican one...

Kinsley doesn�t mention my favorite. Here is the ranking of the last 13 presidents by job creation:

1) Roosevelt (1933-45): +5.3%

2) Johnson (1963-69): +3.8%

3) Carter (1977-81): +3.1%

4) Truman: (1945-53): +2.5%

5) Kennedy (1961-63): +2.5%

6) Clinton (1993-2001): +2.4%

7) Nixon (1969-75): +2.2%

Reagan (1981-89): +2.1%

9) Ford (1975-77): +1.1%

10) Eisenhower (1953-61): +0.9%

11) Bush (1989-93): +0.6%

12) Bush (2001-present): -0.7%

13) Hoover (1929-33): -9.0%

Those rankings were through 2002, if I remember correctly. The current President may have have moved up a notch or so since then. That list is suggestive because job growth was higher under all six Democratic Presidents than under any of the seven Republican Presidents. The true genius of the GOP has been its ability to get people not to vote their wallet.

(PS Unirealist --- sorry about the lack of brevity! There's just SO MUCH that's never talked about enough! And we're so STARVED for information and for the chance to exercise our supposed RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH!!!)

Oh my --- this is soooo good! (From Huffington Post) Do yourself a favor and read the whole thing!

They LIED to MY PRESIDENT

by Marshall Grossman

[SNIP] ... By the middle of the third act of Shakespeare’s Richard II, things are going very badly for the King.

... This is the way it was done. An attack on the king is too easily spun as an attack on the state. But an attack on the evil counselors, who have misled the king, is an attack in defense of king and country. Democrats take heart. Scooter, also known as I. Lewis Libby, chief vassal and steward of the powerful Baron of Halliburton has been removed from the garden. One down.

Disappointing as it is that Boy Genius, also known as Turd Blossom, also known as “Official A,” also known as Karl Rove, has slipped away and remains, for now, at the ear of the King. But it won’t take an alchemist to metamorphose this caterpillar into political gold. The legal system is not a substitute for politics and the political issue is now much easier and more clearly cut than the legal one. The President’s remaining spinners are going to ask: Was the outing of Valerie Plame a crime, under the (fortunately) stringent terms of the Identities Protection Act? It may or may not have been. But the politically correct answer is “It doesn’t matter.” The President did not promise to avoid indictable behavior; he promised to restore dignity and integrity to the Oval Office. How can you do that with a bunch of liars?

... Oh Democrats, my Democrats. Don’t take the Republican bait. Please don’t debate the role of special counsel and the arcanery of law. Just explain and repeat, explain and repeat:

Nobody lies to my President and gets away with it. [SNIP]

thoughts to #s 103 and 111:

good points to both...

to add: as a humanities(ish) major (i.e. - classical literature) - Jesus was against organized religion --- in other words, "the church." As is within your posts, churches throughout history have used their followings for political gains and control and greed. But the good news is: we are reaching the end of this goofball period if history repeats itself, which it does. Perhaps, we have the Bush Admin to thank for that. He/they really went overboard this time. I'm waiting for one of the Born Again Groups to hit the front page sometime soon in Jim Jones fashion... Coupled with the fear factor that this administration has placed upon the nation with the medias help, I really think there are a lot of paranoid people answering those pollings. Seemingly, some of our nation is waking up from the frightened rants we have been witnessing since 911 ...which I am still convinced Bush's admin was responsible for! It doesn't take "2 yrs", as the media kept reporting, for a group of "guys" to purchase one way plane tickets... and fly a bunch of planes into buildings, etc. it takes about a couple weeks --- which is exactly how long btwn the meeting Cheney had with Ken Lay in his office when they threatened the Afghani leaders into accepting the Afghani Pipeline deal that enron was negotiating at the face value that had been offered to them without all the add ons of demanding Enron to pay for further Afghani infrastructures, etc. --- or they would be "bombed." Lay needed that pipeline so the oil for the Kabul Power Plant (which was becoming a disaster) would be economically delivered to that Power Plant == without the pipeline, Enron would have to pay tarriff to transport the oil through the Caspian Sea... the only other way to get the oil out of there... Anyway, that's another story... ( Homeland security is an employment mill for people who have control issues and average intelligence, therefore non-effective and only a controlling front to keep everyone in line while the "real work" is done by this admin).

Next: most of the noted "polls" that are taken are heavily loaded on the conservative side --- mostly because their phone lists (though stated random) are redundant because they phone the people who when called are willing to take the 40 minutes to answer the questions... If you will note, online polls are much more enlightened than "phone" polls and the results are overwhelmingly against Bush. For a short time, I visited a relative in a very conservative suburb of DC --- she (a Republican who's husband worked for Sr. Bush and Rgn, and lunched w/Babs... was called at least twice a week for an opinion poll, so were all of her lady friends... they would discuss those calls and their input at their lunches the following day(s) --- IT WAS LIKE THE STEPFORD WIVES DO VA; so, again, the media, who runs the polls are polling for their own benefit as best they can --- and the rules are very lose about "random polling."

Going back to a paranoid population: you get a story about some woman who was arrested for wearing a Kerry t-shirt at a Bush function or a passenger ejected from a southwest flight for wearing an impeach bush shirt, or an older couple being hauled off in shackles because they weren't in the "freedom zone" with their protest signs, etc. about once a week. The media doesn't tell you that those charges were dropped when they actually got to court --- or that all of those "homeland security" arrests include these bogus incidents... and you get people who are afraid to speak up (in many states in america) --- I live in SF --- drive down any street: you see sign after sign in windows telling Bush exactly where he should go. It's nice to live in a city that allows free speech; anyway, I think though people find their minds are uncomfortable with this idiot prez, they are afraid to just say it for fear of retribution. So that is why the polls are so lopsided. It is easy to voice against the physical problem, but hard (for them) to direct it to the culprit... also too, remeber: "they" voted for him --- now look what they got.

This investigation (along with the total screw up re disaster relief for hurricane victims) hopefully, will be the straw that will bring a new surge of courage to a sleeping population.

Two further notes: 1) have a friend who works for the Pentagon... the media is not reporting on it... did you know "Bush" is building 14 permanent military bases in Iraq? Doesn't seem like there is any "exit" strategy, does it. (also: we can't afford nor does he believe we need our own military bases --- so that is why they are closing). And 2) re the environment: you think this year's hurricane season was bad? Wait till next year --- hopefully, though it will be said, it will pose enough proof that those corporate idiots (and Born Agains) are "changing" our environment and devestating our planet. A friend at Stanford informed me about 10 years ago --- that New Orleans would not exist in "12 years"... because the Continental Shelf is so shallow in that area == easily flooded --- it would be the first major US city to be destroyed by global warming/polar ice melting... They seem to forget with all their bible rants: Mother Earth is a partner with God... and she gets angry (too) when not taken care of properly.

Regards...

Think Progress --- Morris: Libby Indictment Implicates Cheney

On Fox News, former presidential advisor Dick Morris says today’s events don’t bode well for Dick Cheney:

**MORE**

M4 - You sound like you are exactly right where I am on everything right now. I find comfort that I'm not alone, but also sad that we probably aren't the only two.

Anyone in their circle of hundreds could walk down a city street and shoot somone in plain sight, with 200 witnesses, and get away with it. It's a losing battle - money rules, not democracy or justice. We're right, but they're rich and in control - No freaking contest.

Kira #118 Sorry if I came across as criticizing you.

By saying "we need you" at the end of my post, I was making a summation intended to say don't worry too much and therefore give up resulting in us here loosing you.

Obviously you won't and that is good for us and bad for the fascists.

Kira, your links and comments are always highly informative. E.g. #127, great catch. Thanks.

Concerned Citizen, I'm sorry that your son's service to America is being misused by the Bush Regime. From websites by attorneys and former prosecutors - they seem to think that Fitzgerald is working a very smart plan.

http://www.firedoglake.com/

is written by 2 women, one of them a former prosecutor and has good news about their informed take on the chess game that Fitzgerald is playing successfully.

Today Yahoo mentioned PNAC and Libby's involvement with Cheney in the policy they put in place for pre-emptive wars.

Also:

">IMPACT FOR VICE PRESIDENT

Despite urging calm for Libby, Cheney may face firestorm, too
By Susan Milligan, Globe Staff October 29, 2005

WASHINGTON --- Vice President Dick Cheney urged people yesterday to give his chief of staff the benefit of the doubt in facing perjury and bstruction of justice charges, but he might also have been referring to himself...

White House Defense Shaky in CIA Leak Case

WASHINGTON - Even if White House aides leaked a covert CIA officer's identity, they were simply
passing along information they'd already heard from the news media, the administration's supporters maintain in a defense that looks increasing shaky as new evidence accumulates.

Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald now knows that Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff, I. Lewis
"Scooter" Libby, met three times with a New York Times reporter before the leak of Valerie Plame's
identity, that Libby initiated a call to NBC newsman Tim Russert and that Libby was a confirming source about the wife of Bush administration critic Joseph Wilson for a Time magazine reporter...
~~
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/

Lena David #137

Your post has distorted the look and feel of this blog's page layout.

Kira usually is the gentle hand that informs newbies how to syntactically behave.

Welcome.

re #137, #138: No worries. I've changed comment #137 to restore the "look and feel" of this page.

When they outed Valerie Plame, she immediately had to acess the impact of it. She had to assemble a team to investigate who else it impacted, who's lives it put in jeapardy around the world, and start thinking about retirement. I think they angered her husband Joe Wilson beyond what they expected, and Joe Wilson stuck up for his wife relentlessly and persistently, and they underestimated his clout. And they miscalculated that most Americans would view this as a "Benedict Arnold" treason, and not give them a pass. Joe Wilson acted unlike John McCain, who let Bush/Rove slander his wife and family during the 2000 campaign, and didn't stick up for them. That is why I lost respect for John McCain. He put the GOP above his family, much like GOP zeolats put the GOP above America. If someone slandered my wife, I would act more like Joe Wilson than John McCain.

I too, lost respect for John McCain. I do not understand how he can be so forgiving after the smear campaign done to him by bushco. I also often wonder what happened to Powell. Why did he go along with all of this, he certainly knew and I only can conclude karl was holding something on him or perhaps he felt he could change the agenda, but then I watched him transform into one of them.
He did attempt to redeem himself by getting out in '04. he stayed four years, he was so outnumbered, he certainly knew he couldn't change anything..so he went along with the show..why. I thought he loved his Country.

After watching the Sunday Morning talk shows, the right wing sees this indictment result as a complete vindication of the white house. That things are fine.

And they all think there will be no more indictments.

And they are preparing for a giant war over the supreme court nomination.

If anyone watched Alexander Haig on CNN, one would think he is losing his mind.

They right wing is still very out of touch with the reality of the people, and intoxicated by their own "reality".

Thanks Dredd & Unirealist!

I hope & pray Fitzie's work will shine an intensely bright light on all the corruption - so bright that the decay cannot be ignored.

Anyway --- Fitzie's files do prove that cheney is a BIG FAT LIAR! I hope that goes somewhere with the thinking American public. Don't expect any change from the die-hard republicans who fervently ignore the truth while clinging mindlessly to White House propaganda.

The most recent polls I know of:

And by a 3 to 1 ratio, 46 percent to 15 percent, Americans say the level of honesty and ethics in the government has declined rather than risen under Bush (link here).

Thanks Katherine for your post! Yes --- I think we're aware of the permanent military bases for Iraq and that the real neoCON PNAC plan is to never leave Iraq and to eventually own the world!!!

Here's another article about the USA's military bases around the world:

America's Empire of Bases

[tiny snip] One reason why the Pentagon is considering moving out of rich democracies like Germany and South Korea and looks covetously at military dictatorships and poverty-stricken dependencies is to take advantage of what the Pentagon calls their "more permissive environmental regulations." The Pentagon always imposes on countries in which it deploys our forces so-called Status of Forces Agreements, which usually exempt the United States from cleaning up or paying for the environmental damage it causes. This is a standing grievance in Okinawa, where the American environmental record has been nothing short of abominable. Part of this attitude is simply the desire of the Pentagon to put itself beyond any of the restraints that govern civilian life, an attitude increasingly at play in the "homeland" as well. For example, the 2004 defense authorization bill of $401.3 billion that President Bush signed into law in November 2003 exempts the military from abiding by the Endangered Species Act and the Marine Mammal Protection Act. [end snip]

Also read Representative Barbara Lee's article on the permanent bases in Iraq:

Permanent Occupation

Another great article by Juan Cole at Truthout:

All the Vice President's Men

#147, I fart in your general direction

Raw Story had this link:

Joe Wilson says wife, Plame, has been threatened:

[snip] "There have been specific threats [against Plame]. Beyond that I just can’t go," Wilson tells Bradley. Wilson says he and his wife have discussed security for her with "several agencies."

Former CIA colleagues say that by revealing her identity, harm could be caused to the CIA’s agents and operations. "If a CIA agent is exposed, then everyone coming in contact with that agent is exposed," says Jim Marcinkowski, a former CIA agent who trained with Plame at the top-secret Virginia facility known as "the Farm." "There is a possibility that there were other agents that would use that same kind of a cover. So they may have been using Brewster Jennings just like her," said Marcinkowski, referring to the fictional firm the CIA set up as her cover that also came out when journalists, including Robert Novak, disclosed it.

Marcinkowski also points out, "[Plame] is the wife of an ambassador, for example. Now, since this happened…they’ll know there’s a possibility that the wife of a U.S. ambassador is a CIA agent."

Another friend, once a covert CIA operative, says people who say Plame wasn’t in a sensitive position need to understand how intricate a cover story is, regardless of what an agent is working on. "Cover is…for a clandestine officer, can be different things at different times. We change cover. We modify cover based on how we need it. But that cover is linked together," she tells Bradley. "If you start to unravel one part of that, you can unravel the whole thing."

Rep. Rush Holt, D-N.J., a former intelligence analyst and member of the House Intelligence Committee, agrees. "I think any time the identity of a covert agent is released, there is some damage --- and it’s serious." Holt says it’s possible agents overseas could be arrested or even killed, but "if there were, and I’d been briefed on it, I couldn’t talk about it," he tells Bradley. He did say he has been assured the CIA was mitigating the effects of the leak. "They have taken the usual procedures to protect the damage from spreading." [snip] **MORE**

Hmm.. farting at the future? strange little man..

Does anyone believe Libby et al would out a NOC CIA agent without the okay of their superiors?

Can you say 'conspiracy'? I knew you could.

It had to be Cheney and/or Bush who okayed this outing.

I suppose the Republicans are just 'whistling past the graveyard' on this All Hallow's Eve because they know they control the Congress and the Republican-controlled Congress isn't going to toss Bush/Cheney out on their ears.

Now, if only the press would do their job and expose the whole thing and let it hang there around the necks of all Republicans, like a rotten ham.

at 6' 5 & 275#(ok a few extra lbs) 'tisn't accurate to call me little. But, if you look @ #147, my psychic abilities have been confirmed

That you're an idiot Castro, that's what we've confirmed.

Thanks for playing.

Doug E.

Dredd, Alexander Haig lost his mind years ago. Now, senility/dementia has set in.

#149 I'd match my academic and professional credentials against yours any day. Kiss my royal formerly israeli tuchus.

your psychotic abililities have been confirmed

Does anyone know the REAL American troop body count? Not the 2,000...but the REAL count? I heard it's over 10,000. Anyone know if this is true? The 2,000 is the fake count from the fake president.

Anyone who thinks the American troop body count is only 2,000...believes Bush won 2 elections, there's WMD's in Iraq, Osama-9/11=Sadaam-Iraq, the fake Bush news videos, the pre-passage medicare cost, we're bringing democracy to Iraq, Libby didn't out Valerie Plame, Bush and Cheney had no knowledge of it, electronic voting machines are secure, our votes count, Bush didn't have a device under his suit during the debates, gas companies are not making obscene profits just because Bush/Cheney are oil men, rightwingers are intelligent (I could continue for quite a long time, but it's getting late)...

Anybody else here having trouble with Republican Comcast "operatives" fucking with their computer and forbidding access to tons of pages? 'Cause I sure am. Feel free to offer help bros...

Hi all --

I haven't been around much, or read all the comments in this thread, so perhaps this has been discussed somewhere previous.

My hypothesis and opinion concerning this case hasn't changed from the beginning, but instead been reinforced by every official action. In short, Fitzgerald is a government employed attorney, employed by the Justice Dept. in a role as a special prosecutor. Fitz is NOT an independent prosecutor nor an independent investigator. He is government 100%.

IMO, Like his role in the 1993 WTC bombing case, the 1995 OKC federal building bombing and the Osama/al-Quada cases, Fitz is asked to do the (coverup) job because he provides exactly the results the Justice Dept. wants. Exactly the desired results!

Notice in his press conference, several times he alluded to "the public interest served" or similar statements, yet his Grand Jury was not offered, and indeed did not hand down an indictment fingering the guilty party or parties, for the crime the Grand Jury was convened to get to the bottom of, their first duty to charge.

This is an alleged Espionage case under 18 USC 794, punishable by life imprisonment or death, yet all parties, including Joe Wilson, an accuser and witness to the criminal damages himself, conveniently lead us away via bullshit into lessor violations.

The crime(s) remain unsolved and uncharged. The public has not been served by this injustice nor can it be. In justice' place instead we get talking head productions from the phony left political opposition (the Dems) and the controlled phony media, both mainstream corporate and most so called "alternative news" sites. It's just another day in Hollywood. Both sides of the argument are scripted and presented by fakes.

Now then, what can we do about it? Probably nothing now in the way of setting things right since it is fully controlled end to end. But we can let them know how we feel about all this. We can let them know that WE know their criminal methods, their phony vehicle, and their criminal purpose. We can let parties know that we won't be fooled by fakery anymore.

One such example of the phony left-wing and its phony "alternative news" vehicle is spoken about here:
Democrats still around?
The author makes a few truthful points but in the end fails to recognize (purposely?) the cause and effect sufficiently to suggest a realistic solution. The author suggests creating a pluralist left solution from fragmented fake left parties... In other words, she asks, lets all build something really good from several hopelessly fake pieces of scrap! Ahh, the phony fragmenting left at its best! Feigning unity while providing only further division!!

Ok, end rants....
I'll ask you to consider instead my personal take (I wrote mine first and a solution not targeting parties but ALL people:
What Is Needed In Our Failing Nation?
Peace

Another fine example of feigned opposition, this time from the "do gooders" at Amnesty International.
Why is it so necessary to write a new constitution for Iraq now?
It has that famously effective John Conyers, "lets write a report and send a letter" kinda flavor.

And another do gooder for us, from our beloved "duly elected representatives" from the right-wing with assistance from the left er... ahh... right-wing phony left.
While you were, ah, distracted, Congress was quietly renewing every major provision of the Patriot Act.

Ok, I'm sure I'm not the only one that caught this. We all know about the disdain this administration has for the press but, the entire reason all this started was because in Russert's words "Scooter called me up that day to COMPLAIN (my emphasis) about something he saw that day" either in a newspaper or TV.

Look, I know we all know that they tried to spin the war and that they try to shape the publics perception but why hell hasn't anyone in the MSM picked up on the fact that the VP of USA, butt boy called up to complain to another reporter he didn't LIKE SOMETHING HE READ OR HEARD...

arghhhhh. Hello? anyone? is it only me? Can't meet the press attack this point one Sunday morning?

For Torqued: Here's why I'm not as pessmistic as you are.

Even if Libby's indictment is a token gesture by a prosecutor working for the government and trying to cover up treason, he can't. Pandora's box has been opened.

If Libby is put on trial, witnesses will not be able to avoid speaking to the question, "Was the outing of Valerie Plame a conspiracy to discredit her husband and promote a fraudulent case for an invasion of Iraq?" Even if that specific question is ruled irrelevant by the judge and/or never asked, it will be unavoidable.

If Libby cops a plea after asserting his absolute innocence and vowing to fight the charges, it will be obvious Bush/Cheney demanded it. That begs the question, "What is the quid pro quo for Libby?" The obvious answer? A guaranteed pardon.

Here's where we need the lawyers to weigh in. Bush has the legal right to pardon anyone, but if the promise of a pardon is used to encourage a plea bargain in lieu of a trial (because the trial would reveal too much), isn't this obstruction of justice? Or at least, interference with the judicial process?

Putting it another way...does the presidential pregrogative to pardon someone include the right to promise a pardon to a potential defendant in return for his agreement to plead guilty to a lesser charge and thus avoid a (messy) trial? If Fitzgerald knows this is about to occur, isn't it a violation of his prosecutorial duty to go a long with it?

RLM #161

A pardon by a president is more "political" than it is a "legal" question.

I would expect it to happen after the '06 election, not before.

There is nothing that can be done about it if it happens. The problem, as we have seen, is that this admin is the most secretive in memory.

They drag a tree behind themselves and cover their trail up quite well. Legally. But not politically.

They have been found out by the body politic and that will cost them in '06 if free and fair elections happen. They will loose the majority.

Work for fair and free elections.

If anybody saw 60 minutes last night, the news will be circulating (among people who aren't just HOPELESSLY brainwashed by GoPee rhetoric and believe anything unfavorable to the Mad King is LIES and Liberal Spin) that The Outing of Valerie Plame (or any CIA operative) is dangerous to our National Security.

Read this from www.afterdowningstreet.org

Wilson: There Have Been Threats

Josh Marshall posted this interesting tidbit --- anybody want to discuss it further?

Talking Points Memo

This afternoon Sen. Rockefeller (D-WV), ranking member of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, put out the following statement ...

[snip] ... “To date, Congress has completely failed to answer these critical questions. The fact is that at any time the Senate Intelligence Committee pursued a line of questioning that brought us close to the White House, our efforts were thwarted. If my Republican colleagues are not prepared to undertake a full and serious congressional investigation into the potential misuse of intelligence, then I regretfully conclude that we have no choice but to pursue an outside independent investigation. The American people deserve answers and they want the truth.” ... [snip]

~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's a strong statement. And the Congress has completely failed in its oversight responsibilities in this whole matter. But the question can't be avoided.

If that's all true, why did he and fellow Democrats on the intel committee sign off on last year's report?

Why has he said so little this year about the failure to pursue the promised second phase of the Senate investigation, which was supposed to look into the question of executive branch manipulation of WMD intelligence?

Why has he remained silent in the face of evidence, put before him more than a year ago, that the FBI investigation into the forgeries, which he himself requested, has never been pursued in earnest?

Accountability for the Congress's failure to pursue its oversight responsibilities in this case does not end on the Republican side of the aisle. Nor does it end with Rockefeller. He's the ranking member of the committee, with unique access and power. But he's not the only Democrat on the committee. Why stand up now when they didn't stand up before? The Republicans' behavior at least has the logic of self-interest behind it. That of the Democrats' is inscrutable. -- Josh Marshal

WMD FOUND!!

This link illustrates how well lies and evidence of those lies can be covered up.

The military has been dumping WMD into the ocean off the coast. One wonders if they ever stopped.

Where do they dump the other evidence against them?

I read that, too, Dredd. I was so sickened to know JUST how shallow, base, moronic, and short-sighted our governmental leaders have been (and continue to be.)

But, Dredd, what do we expect from this country, anyway? It was founded on the nearly complete genocide of the Native Americans and their staple food the Buffalo. America was founded on the propaganda of Manifest Destiny and LIES told to the new citizens who settled here and those LIES told to the Native population.

There is a verse in the Bible that says, "the sins of the father will be visited on the children."

A nagging thought I keep having about the Plame/Wilson affair. Plame was a NOC working on WMD. I keep wondering if 'outing' her was not so much about payback to Wilson, but silencing Plame. Perhaps she had discovered some sordid evidence regarding our gov't's involvement in these programs. Suppose she was getting too close to the 'follow the money' trail and it was leading right back here. The WH knew it and needed to put her away. Though she was supposedly outed as a payback to Wilson, it was really Plame they wanted and we have bought another Lie. Should this be the case, we are indeed being laughed at..... Mission Accomplished. (I am probably late with this post as I suspect this theory has already been thought of...but guess it may be worth repeating)

#165 Dredd, heard a snip about that on the radio last nite. Thanks for the link. Pretty much verifys that this civilized society uses this planet as a dump.
All the reports regarding red tides (here in Pacific Northwest), whales beaching, dolphins dying. The powers that be just can't destroy this planet fast enough. The sonar is blasting away these animals brains, they are so confused and many people try to help them by sending them back to sea to suffer some more. A navy guy in my area pretty much admitted the sonar problem when he cautioned that diver's shouldn't be in the water when they were testing their sonar.

Another way they use this crap is to get rid of it on poor countries. I said during Gulf War I that we needed to get rid of all our 'outdated military hardware' so the contractors could get busy making new ones. The US is the biggest arms dealer in the world I seem to remember reading somewhere.

Orwell's "1984" covers this topic. A country completely immersed in producing 'disposal products' so the people always have jobs. Still need to find my book for a re-read.

BTW, I watched Batman 5? yesterday. Have never watched a Batman movie in my life. I could not help but see the similiarities between Gothum (sp.) and D.C. I don't read fiction and am not a movie buff, so am way behind the younger generation in this respect. I just don't understand generation 'x' that does read the sci-fi and watch these movies, can believe bush is a Super Hero.

The MSM has a poll to look at about them now. They have been covering up crimes on behalf of the criminal government officials.

Note where they rank:

The annual worldwide press freedom index from Reporters Without Borders shows the United States, which is supposedly spreading freedom and liberty throughout the world, is in a fast decline regarding the freedom of its own press.

The report ranked the United States in 44th place, an atomic drop from a favorable position of 22nd held last year, and from a handsome 17th place in 2002 (link here).

For the US to be going around destroying nations in order to spread "liberty" is like a football team not even making the playoffs holding a super bowl victory parade.

anybody want tickets to John Ashcroft Sings Tina Turner's greatest hits tonight at the Midland Center? First offer over $50 takes the four of 'em

No idea, Big Dan. But I am told that if the medics manage to get wounded out of Iraq to a hospital in Germany before they die, then their deaths aren't counted.

Very bad news from Wayne Madsen. The Libby case will be heard by Judge Walton--a long-time Bush family hack. Walton is the one who allowed Ashcroft to slap a national security blanket on Sibel Edmonds case. Even kicked her and her legal team out of the courtroom at one point during the hearing of her case. Libby doesn't need a pardon if Judge Walton's got the gavel.

(someone above mentioned the judge, but it got lost in the thread)

I guess I will never be able to link, have been trying to for 20 minutes, following the instructions here and also Kira's. So will continue to babble on about what I read on other sites, but can't lead anyone too. I hate being computer illiterate! I am trying to link to a site at Indymedia, regarding why 911 was chosen to bomb the WTC. This has to do with all the players and I don't know if it's true but is quite a read I keep going back there, some part of me keeps saying to look at this...there is a clue here. The author is Tom Flocco and since I am new I don't know what people think of him. Oh well. I will keep trying to learn this link stuff but don't hold out any hope for me. If ever I learn, you will be the first to know. M4

Why would someone allegedly commit perjury and obstruction of justice other than to prevent discovery of something far worse or to protect someone more important?

I haven't been following this thread, but it looks very interesting.

I was going to put this on the Feeney thread to follow up one of my posts, but I thought it would be getting too off-topic.

So, I'll put it here.

----------------------------------------------------------

And...the problem goes far beyond corruption and dumbing down.

Peak oil, as Dredd mentioned (at #13 this thread), is the problem looming over whatever else we are talking about. Greed and corruption and dishonesty rule at the very time something much more is needed.

We should have been working on "Plan B" - the plan to transition us from a fossil fuel economy to "Plan C" (a sustainable economy) - from at least the time of Carter. That's why, IMO, the Reagan presidency was a tragedy of epic proportions. We threw reality out the window in 1980 and the consequences are at our door. We opted for fantasy and hypocrisy, put greed on a pedestal, consolidated a selfish elite, and took refuge in the "bottom line" and have done so ever since. (I don't exempt the Clinton administration.)

Now, when we should be pulling our moral, physical, and intellectual resources together to tackle a crisis, we have to deal with gangsters who have taken advantage of the tragic national distraction and who control sources of propaganda to secure and expand their own place of power. They are the very last people who should set the direction in the confrontation with peak oil.

I am convinced that more attention to our democracy would have brought us to a situation more hopeful than the mess we find ourselves in today.

The last sentence in #174, "I am convinced that more attention to our democracy would have brought us to a situation more hopeful than the mess we find ourselves in today"was referring to this on the other thread, which I was trying to elaborate on.

too late - the ashcroft tickets are sold

Arry #174-#175

Good points. This reality will grow on us. The oil barons will seek to divide the issue into liberal and conservative.

But the reality is that it is a human crisis involving human rights.

Scooter is at the forefront of the distraction. The begining shots have been fired, the first country captured, and the first coverup prosecution commenced.

{ed note: Comment deleted due to violation of one of the very few rules we have here: posting under different names}

Merifour!

Still having trouble with making clickable links? What did I miss in my discussion, I wonder. It's really not hard once you get past being overwhelmed by the foreign language of html. Are you willing to try again?

For Torqued's Community Assistant link generator to work, you must supply a complete address i.e. it must contain http:// (which comes before the www.address.com part.)

In other words, if you only supply a www.address.com in the Link URL: box, it won't work.

Could this possibly be the problem?

Here's another link generator online that you can try:

Wordbone Link Generator (I made this link with Torqued's Community Assistant.)

At the Wordbone site, you don't get a choice for text. The link will be clickable, but the link will show the entire http://www.address.com instead of a shorter description of your choice (i.e. LINK).

Here's an example of what Wordbone Link Generator does --

http://www.wordbone.com/tools/link-generator/

You see the difference.

Remember (at Wordbone), you must copy everything that appears in the box on the right (after you click on 'Create Link' button) and then paste it into the comments box here on Bradblog.

Try not to get too frustrated ... many of us here struggled with learning the html linking language for awhile before we finally got it. I'm sure Dredd & Peg C. thought I'd never get it --- back when I was goofing up big time trying to make links!

Hang in there! You'll get it if you keep trying.

Thanks Kira....I got the info into the 'link' box, the complete address from the site, thought everything was a go but then I tried to get back to my comment screen and lost it all....I tried all over again and couldn't remember how I did it the first time and got so frustrated. Your instructions were great because they worked at first. I someone messed up the second time. I don't even cut and paste so have a double handicap. I will go to the other site you linked and see if that helps. Perhaps I will conquer this, just trial and error, and a lot of help from my friends!

OT, I wish I was a fly on the wall during the Closed Senate session today. Roberts had to give a time commitment so it must have gotten really bad. He certainly in the defense mode. Rockefeller shot down all Robert's lies...giving the timeline and how the WH withheld docs. I am getting a wee bit of hope back now, that Congress is growing some conscious...hopefully they finally realize that coming generations, their kids and their kids, will reap what they have sown. Frist had some gall, saying he had been slapped in the face, well hello, he's been slapping us in the face for a few years now. Paybacks are hell. M4

Merifour - I think you said in your comment #180 you don't know how to cut & paste? Just in case I read that right, here's a quick help on that:

Cute site name: www.newbiesandnitwits.com

These look like very good instructions for how to cut, copy and paste text (or web addresses.) Just ignore the fact he's writing about email programs and word processors - it's the same procedure for any cutting, copying & pasting effort!

Actually, I'm editing his instructions a little to personalize them for our discussion --- here goes:

1. Move the cursor to the beginning of the web address or text you want to copy, LEFT-click and hold it.

2. Keep holding the mouse button while moving the mouse, dragging the cursor over the text. See how it changes color? This is called 'selecting the text.'

3. When all the text (or web address) you want to copy is highlighted, RIGHT-click.

4. On the popup menu that appears, left-click 'Copy'.

5. Next, go to either Torqued’s Community Assistant (CA) or Wordbone; Position the mouse cursor in the box you wish to copy the address and left-click. At the CA generator, the box you want (LINK URL:) will change to YELLOW after you click on it.

6. Right click, and select 'Paste'. The web address will appear.

7. After you paste in the web address, either copy and paste your desired text or type something into the "Link Text:" box and then (of course) click on the "Generate HTML" button and THEN

8. Simply follow instructions in #3 and #4. Find your Bradblog comment box, right-click and select paste, and (hopefully) VOILA!!

OH YES .. at Torqued's CA ... you MUST type something in the box "Link text:" or NOTHING will show on the comments page.

Everything is so complicated these days, eh?

Kira, am printing out these instructions and will try to do it again...probably something real simple for a start. Not now tho, will wait till I can am not in the middle of fixing dinner! Thank you so much, I think the 'right' click button is the clue I was missing. M

Jay Rockefeller rarely speaks out. He's not a fierce partisan (his uncle was a Republican vice president). He's a cautious intellectual who chooses his words carefully.

When he does speak, people listen. And pay attention. Frist and Roberts can whine all they want about Democrat tactics, the facts speak for themselves. And Rocky nailed them on the facts.

Next stop...Downing Street minutes.

OT - regarding Rove - oops the new judge is a donator to the repubs - he's out of here too!

Re me @ #185

Damn - There's so many administration and repub crooks out there I'm getting totaly confused!

That should have read: "regarding DeLay!"

(It's been a long frustrating week)

#183 Kira, back to my being OT, but keep thinking I need to tell you THANK YOU for all your helpful tips. I haven't had a chance to try again yet. Will probably attempt to do so in a thread where no one can see me (g). I have been busy chasing the news all over the other blogs and I know you guys are so onto it and I am doing my best to keep up. Will probably wait for a 'slow' news day......lol. M4

Haha! No problem, Merifour. I'm just returning the favor since people went out of their way, here, to help me and others learn some basic html. Good luck and feel free to ask if you get stumped on something!

I'm always having a hard time keeping up with the tons of info & research we have to do to get "our" news. It's tough since MSM got bought off by the neoCONs.

I think it is great that so much dirt is coming out. When do you think grand juries will be convened to investigate the torture of Americans on American soil?

See my site for photos and evidence.