I think this is a momentous occasion. It proves that we still have free speech in this country, and that we are not in danger of a totalitarian takeover. If that were so, this would be an act of treason. We have yet to hear what he says, but an open public accusation would be amazing.

It proves that the terror hoax did not take hold, and it has lost its stranglehold over the American public. They basically think Bush lied about Iraq, so who knows what else they will come to believe. At least there is a healthy doubt in the air, and the fear of terrorists does not have the power it once did.

Now is the time to move forward, and leave this sorrow behind.

Teresa #1

But to a lot of people it does not make sense that a lie of such magnitude would happen for no reason. Therefore there is widespread skepticism.

In the eyes of those people there would have to be a "very good reason" in the mind of those who lied (Bush admin) to the american people.

The author Griffin's comparison to Pearl Harbor is instructive. The entire reason the democratic administration of the 1940's lied to the american people about Pearl Harbor was "the good reason" that Germany had to be stopped.

The american people would not have wanted to go to war based on "hypotheticals" (at that time) about the NAZI asperations. FDR, this story goes, had to make a tough decision that would cost fewer american lives in the long run.

So the 1940's attack from Japan, when detected in enough time to thwart it or seriously diminish its effects, was allowed to proceed unfettered so it would enrage the body politic. It worked.

Similarly, the PEAK OIL (link, link 2) syndrome is the backdrop for the "Second Pearl Harbor" which a republican admin allowed to happen. It gave a valid pretense to invade the middle east and secure oil supplies which increases the security of the US and the western world by controlling the life-blood of the economy and the military - oil.

Therefore the current admin, like the FDR admin, has made a tough decision that will in the long run save american and western lives.

That is the underlying thesis whether one believes it will save more lives in the long run or not.

I am not advocating one side or the other of the argument, I am just setting forth the entire scope of the argument, so it can be seen that the more scholarly conspiracy theorists tie the entire episode to a global military-political world view held by those in power (see e.g. Crossing The Rubicon).

Yes, Dredd, I've considered these arguments. But I take issue with the lying. I think things can be accomplished in a lot of ways. If it were really necessary to wage wars for survival and diminishing resources, then I think the people could be convinced of that.

I don't believe that the Middle East attempted empire is to secure the oil supplies. They are finite and would not mean security. I think there are other factors which merit discussion if you are inclined. I would like to know your opinion.
People who desire power I would think are already looking beyond oil.

I also believe that with the end of the Age of Oil and the nuclear, biological threat we will have to learn a new way of dealing with others. Survival always dictates, and laws of nature, so I believe we will have to evolve to a more cooperative behavior away from primitive brute force. Of course this will take time. It will happen automatically through mutations and changes in brain chemistry. There are always those among us who are a little bit ahead and lead by example.

I even think that the brain changes are starting to occur with all of us through the blogosphere. It is an absolutely new and innovative development. We are seeing, I think, the last of this primitive exercise of power, and in time, people will leave this behind, as it will no longer be useful.

One other little thingy.. one of my wilder theories. I think a lot of this has to do with our evolution as pipedal creatures. As we get further away from being on all fours, reaping from the earth what we need, I think our brains and imaginations will develop in ways we can't even conceive of yet. We will develop means of survival that might not include raping the earth and competing and murdering one other in our perception of limited resources. I think that will change as we recognize newer and further boundaries, and that we are not as limited as we thought.

correction..."bipedal"

Re #s 2 & 3
Sadly, It's not difficult for me to imagine that a great number of people would be able to justify to themselves the "necessity" for our government to murder 3000 of its own people for purposes of "national security" or whatever excuse they put foth & endlessly repeat. People seem perfectly capable of justifying alot of things.

Re #5
That theory of yours is a bit too rosy in my estimation. The human race, and especially its leaders, don't have the greatest track record for using our burgeoning knowledge for good purposes.
I do think what you describe is true for a certain amount of people and I hope the number is growing.
The old tug-o-war between good & evil forces at work, which takes place on many levels, I think.

Absolutely, Joan. I think it's 50/50. Fair enough.

What many of us overlook is that Pearl Harbor was directly linked to oil supplies, too. It's often forgotten that F.D.R. interdicted Japan's access to Indonesian oil, which effectively cut Japan off from a needed import commodity. The Japs took it as a provocation (which it was). Whether F.D.R. expected the actual attack on Pearl Harbor, and/or knew it was coming on 12/7/41, is debatable.

Rev. Griffin, I'm told, breaks down American public opinion into four categories, ranging from #1, which is total acceptance of Bush's policies, to #4, which is that he and Cheney orchestrated the 9/11 attacks. Put me in category #3, which is closest to F.D.R. before Pearl Harbor...he knew something was going to happen, didn't know exactly when, but considered letting it happen to be a valid excuse to do something he wanted to do anyway, wage war.

Teresa #3 You said you take issue with the lying. Of course, without honesty in government there is no democracy nor real freedom of choice. The lie takes away the people's freedom and right to choose.

That is the fundamental problem with the alleged FDR and bu$shite ideology: "The people are not smart enough to figure it out so you figure it out for them and lie about it."

Not good.

RLM #9 Yes all these theories are debatable, and probably all of them are partially right and partially wrong. It is difficult to know the percentages of right and of wrong.

I saw a documentary on Pearl Harbor where it depicted 7 or so warnings that were passed up the chain of command and ignored.

Very good point about Pearl Harbor being about oil.

That is another good reason for using the Pearl Harbor analogy, and for pondering if we are not learning from history and are therefore repeating it ... only with far greater consequences this time.

hmmmm. testing...testing...my posts are not going through. (?)

ah! finally...
So will they go through if I type

"I hope y'all are watching David Griffin on CSPAN right now!!"?

As I've tried to post a couple of times now...

I can speak for a fact that the US government knew that Pearl Harbor was going to happen, months in advance. (I won't retell the story here in detail, but as a young man he personally saw a telegram to a journalist who was his family's tenant, reassigning him to Hawaii to cover the coming attack on Pearl Harbor. My dad still remembers the words of the telegram to this day.)

In Gore Vidal's book "Dreaming War" he has a chapter on Japanese intentions in WWII and makes a solid case for how Japan was provoked into a situation in which it would have no choice but to attack. This was done so that the US could then convince a reluctant public into going into war.

There have also been documentaries seen over here (Ireland) and elsewhere about how the Australian secret service had also intercepted the Japanese messages and passed them on to the USA.

There is strong evidence that the USA deliberately provoked the Japanese attack.

It is indisputable that the US government knew about the coming attack on Pearl Harbor and could have avoided it, had it wanted to do so. (But being the victim of this attack was perceived as being in the USA's strategic interests, by those in power at the time.)

What a well-spoken gentleman.

A great representative for the truth.

The comparison to Pearl Harbor is good actually because it points out the difference. Around that event was a madman committing genocide on a massive scale and successfully devastating Europe.
There were incredibly strong feelings of self protection in the people.
In this case, the limited interests of the perpetrators is much closer to the surface and getting more so all the time. The War On Terror has all but disappeared in the minds of the people, and still the memory of the attack looms, all the time becoming more questionable.

The horribly feared enemy is diminishing thus revealing the horrible enemy within.

That could never happen around WW II. It will remain justified for a long time.

Re 11 & 12
Ok, guess my paranoia was showing. Sorry....

Just watched Griffin & he was very thorough, scholarly and careful; quite a marked contrast to some on the right who seem to immediately plunge into shrill fire-&-brimstone rhetoric.
I must say it was somewhat surreal to watch this mild, affable, grandfatherly theologian calmly detailing how the U.S. government *may have* orchestrated the killing of 3000 of its citizens.
Sweet Jesus in a jar.

I hope everyone saw the C-SPAN broadcast that just ended. I found Rev. Griffin to be entirely credible, and hearing the talk has moved me out of the #3 category into the #4, at least as far as Cheney is concerned.

Bush might not even have been told when it was going to happen, merely knew something untoward was coming. This was at the time when Cheney was holding his top-secret meetings with oil executives; it now appears clear they were talking about how to divvy up the spoils of an invasion.

But this is a historic day, friends. For the first time, the Bush administration has been exposed to the light through a national media source. Griffin said he couldn't get anyone to review his books (too hot to handle), but I can't imagine that the mainstream media can avoid him now. Hallelujah!

I second that, Robert! With every cell and fiber of my body. He is wonderful. And so much can be learned from that style. With all of this out of control screaming his calm and clear demeanor is amazingly convincing.

He is a powerhouse.

And I hope his comment about the start of something big is accurate.

Hallelujah again.

And Joan... so glad that Sweet Jesus in a jar is back. I missed him.

Haha yeah...wish he'd send help.

God love us all.

We watched Griffin, spellbound - not because the material was unknown but because he presented it in such a reasonable and civilized fashion. I've been a Category 4 since 9/13/01; so I'm glad to see that this is not universally considered wacko paranoia.

I wish C-Span on a Saturday morning were a leeetle bit more mainstream...but YAY!, it's about time and a good start.

I don't remember whether I posted links here or not: one U.K. and one Indian newspaper saying that the U.S. would be invading Afghanistan, in July 2001 and June 2001 respectively. The assumption is that both countries had received secret info and the word had somehow gotten out. I'll look those up again.

The kids took over the main tv, so I got to watch relatively undisturbed at my kitchen table while drinking my morning coffee.

Most of what I heard I had heard before, but the straightforward manner in which it was presented left me angry, and disillusioned, but hopeful that finally, FINALLY, the rest of the country will see these people for what they really are.

I'd like to see a rebroadcast of this, not just on CSPAN, but at Universities and theaters all over the country - preferably free of charge and with MUCH publicity. The majority of the public isn't ready for this, and will never accept it as the truth, but it needs to be out there.

There was one thing brought up that is still troubling me, because I've never seen it explained, maybe someone here can point me to the answer - if, indeed, it was a military plane, and NOT flight 77, that hit the Pentagon (as some convincingly propose) - what happened to flight 77?

The part that bothered me most from the very beginning of all of this was how Bush and the Secret Service behaved on the morning of the attacks. Recent events show what happens when our government REALLY is taken by what they believe is a terrorist attack.

I'm sure you've all heard about the cloud that fooled Bush and Cheney and Secret Service. If not, it's here:

You guys! What a most incredible hour and a half listening to the calming, sane, rational and entirely credible voice of David Ray Griffin. Thank you from the bottom of my heart whoever alerted us to this televised speech.

I called my 80 yr. old parents & had them tune in and they were totally blown away. Griffin corroborates everything I had studied about 9/11 on the net. He has documented the research and in a most reasonable fashion proved who the real tinfoil hatters are!!! (Like we didn't already know.)

Yup - my folks want a 1-pager of Griffin's info with web addresses, his book names & other stimulating info to make copies of and leave everywhere they go. Kinko's here we come!

I doesn't make it any easier to swallow (the gov't lies & willingness to commit murder) but it feels good to hear this sage voice on TV. As people hear - they will question and then we will see more of an uprising. Maybe then we'll see some bucking.

http://www.whatreallyhap...ened.com/preplanned.html

"THE US GOVERNMENT INFORMED OTHER NATIONS OF THE PLAN TO INVADE AFGHANISTAN MONTHS BEFORE THE ATTACKS ON THE WORLD TRADE TOWERS"

Has links to reports from India and BBC in June & Junly 2001.

Catherine A -

You beat me to the punch: I was just returning with that link.

Catherine A from BBV - Glad to see you posting here! You're another voice of reason.

Hi, Kira -

In the last thread, you said it might be time for me to post another fractal, which reminded me that the one I created just after the invasion of Iraq, which I called "Dark Angel," was anything but reassuring! Just brooding and ominous. Heck, I'll try to find a pretty one, but only a few of my thousands are linked.

I'm glad your parents are in on the "educate America" campaign. This is going to take an enormous amount of energy!

Peg C. #29

I like your fractal named "Medallion".

As I look at it, I see "us" (the informed) alive with radiating energy passed from the central core into the circles of cells. It depicts (to me) the energy radiating outward from the outer active cells and into the outer boundaries of the "knowledgable." It is active energy and will continue to stimulate and heat the cool (uninformed.)

I'll bask in my interpretation along with the soothing voice of David Griffin.

Today is much better than yesterday!

KestrelBrighteyes #24 The Pentagon part is the more troubling part to me as well. I have read the differing theories on this and I am still not sure. I don't think that story is right yet. I am not convinced whether or not it was a missle, military aircraft, or Flight 77.

The conspiracy arguments, generally based upon "if this then how come that", which is analytical rational argument, and are not as good as factual evidence arguments.

The other planes and events have much more clarity. For instance I worked on early cell phone technology and do not at all buy the cell phone stories ("lets roll") because there is no way in hell the cell phones would have worked on an airliner at thirty thousand (or above 8,000) feet moving at several hundred miles an hour.

Not gonna happen with the technology in the towers that handle calls in place in 2001. Not even today in rural Pennsylvania. The technology is not designed to work that way.

And the building collapse of the towers and the quick taking away of the debris steel to a foreign nation for meltdown, and the finding of a tiny paper, passport of Mohammed Atta without finding the aircraft's black boxes which are designed to withstand such an event.

Anyway I am not sure of the Pentagon episode but I doubt the official story most of all.

There is one site that agrees with me on this, where they say "the evidence regarding exactly what occurred in the Pentagon attack is ambiguous and difficult to draw clear conclusions from. We do, however, find the official story of the Pentagon attack untenable for a number of reasons" (link here).

Right, Kestrel. Flight 77 had to go somewhere. If it didn't hit the Pentagon, what happened to it? The families of the passengers all know that nobody survived, so if it was a military plane that hit the Pentagon, it means Flight 77 crashed (or was taken down) somewhere else.

What makes Rev. Griffin's suggestion that a military plane crashed into the Pentagon believable is that the damage to the West Wing was too minor to have been possibly caused by a huge passenger plane, a fact that has been published elsewhere numerous times. We don't have to take his word for it. It adds up.

For those who missed it, at the end of his talk Griffin said he expected that the families of 9/11 victims would become more vocal going forward. I'd say that goes double for the families of the passengers aboard Flight 77, specifically.

OK...for Kira

Medallion

Also re: plane that hit the Pentagon:

1. The Pentagon has radar set to go off if any plane other than a military plane (which has some kind of transponder - if I remember right - that sends the "hey I'm one of you guys" signal.) That radar didn't go off. Remember Rummy came running out as if surprised and said he thought it might have been a bomb going off. Yeh right, Dumsfeld.

2. The pilot had to be an ace pilot to do the maneuvering required to fly the plane into the Pentagon as it happened. (So - was this plane on auto-pilot?) Where were the pieces? Why can't we see the confiscated video tapes? Why would a terrorist who was acting with spy info choose to attack the Pentagon where there were no military brass?

Are we sure about the supposed passengers? The odd phone calls from the planes (Dredd says couldn't happen anyway...) and the fact that they were instantly connected via a TV personality - from his wife ... ??? There are suggestions that something was odd about that aspect of the story as it unfolded.

Peg C.! Thanks. It's beautiful.

Day of Deceit by Robert Stinnet is the best book I have read on Pearl Harbor. It is fascinating about what took place. If we could only know as much about what went on during 9/11.
I saw the first half of DRG on C-SPAN. What a great spokesman for truth. May everyone get a chance to hear him.

Kira #34 Here is a link for some more discussion and experiment about the cell phone events of 9/11.

I read a manual recently concerning how the software in the "towers" or cellsites (cell phone handling stations on the ground everywhere in cities and in the country) works.

This software was designed when the cell phones ("client") were relatively weak, compared to today (now cell phones do games, cameras, email, etc), and therefore much inefficient redundancy is in the "server" - cell towers/cellsites.

Sometimes even today they (cell tower systems) can't handle automobile based cell phone traffic as cars speed up.

It is all the more so in rural areas like in Pennsylvania where the "lets roll" aircraft was flying. There are fewer towers/cellsites for handling non local traffic.

Cars travelling at high speeds (70 mph) will have more trouble than cars going slow (35 mph) cause the phone call is passed from tower to tower as the vehicle moves out of one tower/cellsite range and into another.

If it is moving real fast the towers can't handle the transfer quickly enough and the call "drops".

Imagine the difficulty if the "car" (aircraft) is moving at several hundred miles per hour.

Also fewer towers/cellsites and whether one is headed closer or moving away from the tower/cellsite and at what speed is a factor.

And during the call event the tower/cellsite itself is contacting other tower/cellsites in preparation for a handoff of the call should that be required (if the call continues as the cell phone user moves out of range then a transfer is mandated).

And imagine the added implausibility as the cell phone gets higher and higher in altitude. The cell phone, if the signal was strong enough to reach the ground, would contact multiple towers/cellsites at once and cause failure.

The towers/cellsites would not be able to decide which should handle the signal cause the speed would put it out of range of the first contact before it did all its analysis. This is "cascading".

Also, success of a call anywhere depends on the quality of the tower system (cellsite). In rural Pennsylvania in 2001 the cell system would not be designed for handling calls like in a metropolitan area.

If you can remember travelling across the country in those years, and even today, you get to places where the cell phone will give a message that you are out of your area and at other times you can't call.

This is not because of the cell phone itself, it is due to the quantity and quality of the towers/cellsites.

"Can you hear me now" is a ground concept and once in the air and moving fast the answer would always be "NO" (actually there would be no answer cause the question would not be received by the other party).

RLM #32

re. the Pentagon'
I saw a video tape posted on a site (will try to find it) that seemed to show a missile coming in parallel to the ground at about the height/level of the impact area, something that a cruise missile would be capable of. It was caught by a surviellance camera on the grounds of the Pentagon. I don't recall how it was explained that the tape was aquired, especially since it was noted that Govt. agents had siezed video tape from a nearby gas station immediately after the attack. Looking at the pictures of the impact area, it doesn't take a (excuse the pun) rocket scientist to realize that there is nothing resembling aircraft wreckage to be seen anywhere. On top of that, pictures were shown of the "exit wound" where the missile/plane penetrated into the first inner circular courtyard area between the rings of the building, and what was shown was a very small hole, less than ten feet I would say. It was clear to me that it wasn't something that a commercial aircraft would cause.

On the other hand there were conflicting eyewitness reports from people in the cars on the highway outside the Pentagon as to what they had seen. Some said they saw a commercial aircraft. Others said they saw a military aircraft and I believe some said they saw a missile. Confusing enough without the problem of finding out what really did happen th flight 77.

To number two you make good points about the military and oil. If you haven't go to http://www.informationclearinghouse.info and watch the documentary "The Carlyle Group" if you haven't already. It talks about how they make profits from war.

I have bookmarked (or "Saved As") a discussion, with photos, of the Pentagon hit. One of the parts recovered and photographed does not come from the commercial liner but from a smaller military aircraft that is sometimes flown in "drone" mode. I'll see if I can find it and link it for you all.

I'm crushed! I had to work this morning and set my VCR to record Griffin's lecture on C-span but didn't realize the VCR's clock was off (I don't record often these days) and it did not record the show. Does anyone know if it will be rebroadcast?

Here's a small summation of the Pentagon "clean-up" and discussion of engine part. The link I referred to, by Christopher Bollyn, is no longer operative. Wonder why...
target="_blank">Link here.

I'll do some more digging, maybe in the Memory Hole (hat tip to Winter).

Yes, Steve, #41. It's supposed to be rebroadcast in a couple of weeks I think. We should spread the word like a wildfire.

I think the most important thing Rev. Griffin says, and he does so emphatically in that illusive softspoken way, is that it would be impossible for a handful of people like the so called terrorists to get through the defense system of the most sophisticated and powerful military nation on earth.
He makes it all so obvious when he speaks.

Oops!
Link here.

We haven't heard the end of this. I think it is so beautifully ironic that this man of the cloth is using his pulpit as a means to disseminate some real truth that impacts our country and our lives in an earthly way in the midst of all this hypocritical Jesus pandering. He speaks of such important issues in such an astoundingly eloquent way. I love how he states in effect our moral obligation to confront all that desecrates religious teaching in this abuse of power. It is far beyong 911. And it is our responsibility to confront it.

His group is an interfaith organization, Moslems included, assembled to use the 911 incident as a way of uniting in an attempt to use our human selves in an ethical and moral way. It is deeper and bigger that just catching the criminals. The evidence is blaring at us. It is an awakening to become aware of our potential for good in the face of this great human lapse.

If we do that, I think, we will succeed.

I was affected to the marrow by Reverend Griffin. Another so vital thing to realize is how little attention is payed to the gentle and softspoken souls, even though they tell brutal truths.

Most of us are fixated, as in running to look at the gory scene of an accident, on all that is monstrous. We love horror shows, the bloodier and scarier the better. We seem to prefer the hysteria, the screaming, the fear, and the focus on some omnipotent evil. We deify criminals and fixate on them, rather than the people who do good. We simply overlook the quiet ones.

Until we recognize this, how we perpetuate the crimes in a way for entertainment, we will not triumph. We have to look within ourselves for the solution. To master this addiction to the prurient. To learn to walk away.

I will be watching the Reverend closely.

http://www.911blogger.co...-griffin-in-madison.html
This links to a large (150 MB) file of Griffin in Madison; he says he will also do both a smaller and larger file soon. This file needs XViD. Link to xViD is also on the website, I've downloaded it all but can't figure out how to install the xViD. Very confusing. Suggestions appreciated.

Read all the comments on the above website. There are links I haven't yet tried to an mp3 file, and also to a streaming audio file, and mention that after the broadcast one may be able to stream it from CSpan.

Is there a link to stream from CSpan?

Thanks for any suggestions.

If you look at the website mentioned above (i.e., http://www.911blogger.com/ )
it mentions another interview coming up on May 2 with Karl Schwarz. Links and info are on the website.

To get to the Griffin info you have to scroll down.

if your having problems with the video from 911blogger.com you need to install the XViD codec.. which you can find here:
http://www.xvidmovies.com/codec/

Thanks OZ I'll try that website. It looks straightforward.

http://www.yourbbsucks.c...avidraygriffin_cspan.mp3
is the mp3 file (33.5 MB)

and 9MB audio file is here:
http://homepage.mac.com/...sh/iMovieTheater306.html

This is available in a hi rez, good audio version at my site... click here...

http://www.yourbbsucks.c...um/showthread.php?t=1558

It's also available at www.911blogger.com He is the one who obtained it...

It is time for us to unite... no more can we focus on who is right and who is wrong... there is enough evidence to support a truly independent investigation.

Please support www.911truth.org, www.911CitizensWatch.org, www.911visibility.org, www.fromthewilderness.com, www.infowars.com, and so on... there are a multitude of places to find the truth...

No one knows everything. Only together may we find the truth.

Many thanks, all, for the links & information, and to PEG! for that beautiful beautiful image...!

but I gotta say, on a lighter note...#24...

*White House Panicked By Cloud!* LOL!!

#52 Amen to that.

I was thinking the same thing, Teresa. Wouldn't it be wonderfully ironic, given all the business about Bush being sent by God to save the world from heathen liberals, if a man of the cloth were to be the architect of his undoing? I suspect that's what will happen here.

It's very Shakespearean, really. I can't remember which play it was, but I think some king who claimed to have divine rights from God was brought down by a minister. I don't think it was St. Thomas More...earlier than that, but after Henry II.

Look at the "project for the new American century"
911 fits the need.
WE pay as gas prices rise but the price rise is ALL profit to the Oil companies.They are all posting record profits !

Beware of the Pentagon attack ,it could be the setup to "bring down" the "Conspiracy Theorists".The video tapes could show a commercial aircraft hitting the building after all.Odd how the Pentagon was hit on the newly renovated section,just completed ,reinforced and with no high level staff in place or killed.
The sercurity tapes taken by the FBI from the gas station and hotel etc. were gathered up within 5 minutes of the impact ,this is a gaint "RED FLAG"

Except the physical evidence doesn't allow for a commercial aircraft to have made that small a dent in the West Wing of the Pentagon.

Of course, they could have already faked that, too.

The trouble with "Conspiracy Theories" is if you line then up like dominoes when one falls they all fall.
IF this is a conspiracy ,the people behind it would be smart enough to anticipate skepticism from a minority of people and would surely put in place “counter- conspiracy” dis-information to be utilized as and when needed to dis-credit any claims of “proof”.

Shakespeare meets Kafka

#58 That's exactly right, but I think of it without the "IF" ... There WAS a ton of disinformation sown shortly before, during and after the attacks, and it's still going on. There are clear examples all over the place and you don't even have to look very hard to find them.

i posted a WMV version (80mb) for anyone who had issues with the XViD version.. you can find it linked here:
http://www.911blogger.co...-griffin-in-madison.html

DZ #61 - and everybody - thanks so much for the great links. This is wonderful that we can send a link to others who most likely missed Griffin on C-Span.

Gee - what a great group!

I find it ominous that photos I viewed in January and February, of an aircraft turbine at the Pentagon, have disappeared from the web. An aircraft expert had identified the part as I stated above. But I've combed photo indices and can find no trace.

Oh, Robert, that is wonderful that you see things that way. The Shakespeare in it all. The poetic justice.

We are up against so much. The people I talked to today are walking around like zombies in denial, which is just inviting more of the same. I want to throttle them, since it is holding us all back. Endangering us further. But here I have faith. It is so reassuring to be with people who care about our country.

To me, this job was sloppy. It is impossible to buy. And its almost like fate left us so much evidence.
Maybe we could stay updated here as to what Rev. Griff is doing. The more we think about this, the more energy goes into the uncovering of the crime.
I think there are people who want to talk.

Peg C:

Karl Schwarz has an article about pentagon parts, perhaps that will help?

http://www.onlinejournal...hwarz/020205schwarz.html

The whole thing was a conspiracy theory perpetuated by the government from the very start, when they immediately stated it was Osama Bin Laden who did it. That has never, ever come close to being proven, and yet it has always been accepted belief. It's astounding.

Osama with Al Qaida, which makes it a conspiracy.

Does anyone sometimes think it would be better not to know/theorize about or think about these things and that maybe "ignorance is bliss".

That saying must have developed in the mind of someone contemplating and experiencing the feelings on the opposite of bliss.

Or I wonder if there is a place where both can exist ... troubling knowledge or ideas and bliss?

I mean, what is the point of knowing things that are disturbing in place of things that are not?

I wonder if it is like the choice of eathing really spicy foods that cause the digestive system some difficulty vs foods that "don't cause no problems"?

Fortunately I was able to get the audio and sat glued to my earphones for the entire presentation. Mr. Griffin was able to put forth in a reasonable and measured way what I have believed all along. I'm very pleased that this has finally been broadcast by a major media entity. It will cause (fingers crossed) many more people to ask themselves difficult and bedrock belief altering questions. I understand and empathize somewhat, emphasis on somewhat, with Americans who struggle with the notion that their own government, one we have been conditioned to believe is all good, all the time, would sacrifice the lives of it's own citizens to further a global grab for money, resources, and power. Clearly we are running out of time and can ill afford to be patient while waiting for the rest of the country to catch up with us *and* the rest of the world. Hopefully this broadcast will be the beginning of a seachange in American popular belief and self centered belief in our "goodness".

Jon Gold #52 The idea of an independent investigation is a good one.

One difficulty in bringing that idea to fruition is finding people that everyone would trust to be independent.

Perhaps the lawsuit going on in Pennsylvania (link here), Rodriguez v Bush could be considered to be that?

A judge and jury might derive different conclusions than the 9/11 commission did.

I am not convinced of the competency of the legal team in that case but in the current Motion To Dismiss paperwork brought by the government (and those filed in response by the defense) in that case, it is pointed out that lawfirms in general do not want to handle the case. As a matter of fact the defense attorney uses that as an argument for why the case should not be transferred to NY (he doesn't have a liscense to practice law in NY and Rodriguez won't be able to find a lawfirm to represent him there).

The competency of the legal team troubles me because if the case sets precedent then the legal team should be of the utmost competence because it is a public matter and not a matter private to the one citizen bringing the action (Rodriguez).

A petition was filed with the NY attorney general asking for such an independent investigation (link here) but as far as I know it has not begun.

Dredd... Elliot Spitzer has done nothing to start a new investigation...

If there were an independent investigation, made up of family members (which is what they wanted in the first place), and a few laywers to help with the language, would you trust their judgement? I most certainly would.

Thanks, DZ. Not quite the stuff I saw earlier this year, but encouraging. I'm referring to an article, with many B/W pictures of a turbine part found at the Pentagon, which was NOT, nor could it have been, part of thr supposed passenger aircraft that, purportedly, crashed into the west wall of the Pentagon. There were multiple close-focus images. They have been wiped. 'Nuff said.

Here's my small point. The government spends $400 billion a year on DEFENSE. Rumsfeld is the Secretary of DEFENSE. Where was all this DEFENSE on 9-11? Sibel Edmonds was gagged over matters of "National Security." But, since whatever National Security apparatus was in place on 9-11 didn't work, then how does one compromise a no-good system by talking about it? None of the government's arguments make any sense. They said they didn't "connect the dots" before 9-11. Isn't "connecting the dots" a little kid's game?

Peg C
I think I've seen the same pictures-just the same -the Pentagon missile theory is sus .

For MMIIXX: Conspiracy theories can fall apart, but Rev. Griffin's speech was in a non-theoretical mode. Not, "Here's what I suspect happened...," which is a conspiracy theory, but "Here's what we've been told, and it can't be right, because..."

The burden of proof remains on the government to satisfy us, not the other way around. We're citizens and taxpayers. Really, this is a role-reversal process...it's the Bush administration that has been giving us conspiracy theories ("The twin towers came down because of fire" and "Flight 77 hit the Pentagon" and "Angry passengers caused a plane headed for Washington to crash in Pennsylvania").

The U.S. military, FBI, and CIA are the tin-foil hat wearers here. Rev. Griffin is the voice of reason. We have to persuade the mainstream media to see it that way.

Jon Gold #74

Is ANYBODY actively working toward an independent investigation?

Unfortunately, I know there is a very powerful MOB squashing efforts on all fronts to expose the truth ... but surely there is an active group ... ???

BTW, does anybody have an address for David Ray Griffin? I want to write him a heartfelt letter.

Thanks.

kira #76:

911citizenswatch and 911truth started justicefor911.org.. that is the spitzer petition for a grand jury investigation.. that is the best hope asside from the RICO lawsuits which will most likely never get a court date..

if anyone here hasnt reviewed and signed the petition at justicefor911.org please do so now!

Thanks DZ. I've signed all the petitions I can find, including the one you posted. I hope we can eventually find a strong voice. Maybe with Griffin's speech being aired we will grow in numbers and the roar will become deafening! We cross our fingers and keep spreading the word.

Edward # 75.

Exactly. That's all you need to look at. And that's what Griffin said. It is ludicrous to think that a handful of terrorists (who never even operate that way) could penetrate the most sophisticated and elaborate military defense in the world. Absurd. It is so complete that if one part fails another part kicks in. Please.

Anyone who believes that the US government wasn't complicit is a fool.

HIGH RESOLUTION VIDEOS OF THE 9/11 HOAX (AND MUCH MORE).

Here you will find hi-resolution video of the (obvious) demolition of World Trade Center Seven and of the (less obvious) demolition of the Towers. The Naudet brothers stunning footage of the first plane hitting the North tower is also presented (at least one of the brothers quite clearly knew the first aircraft was about to hit the North Tower) together with less well known footage of the first plane hitting the tower, accidently caught by someone filming, while waiting in traffic.

If you are using Windows Media Player you need the DivX3.11a codec plug-in (many non-Microsoft movie players come standard with the codecs necessary to play DivX movies (eg Mplayer for Linux)).

If you do not already have it, you can find it here:

http://public.planetmirr...ndows/divx_3.11alpha.zip

The files from public.planetmirror.com are bit for bit the same (I checked) as those I have had on my system for years (with no harmful effects). You unzip the files and double click on Register_DivX.exe

If you wish to learn about DivX movies, in particular, why they sometimes play upside-down, read this thread:

http://globalresearch.ca....net/viewtopic.php?t=599

HIGH RESOLUTION VIDEO

Here HiRes (high resolution) video means video recorded with the DivX3.11a codec with the (variable) bitrate set to 6000 and crispness/smoothness set to 100. The HiRes videos are much larger files than necessary for good viewing. They are meant to convey as much of the original detail as possible.

THE FIRST PLANE STRIKE ON THE NORTH TOWER

The First Plane Hitting The North Tower (13 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×408) Copy.
Video taken while waiting to enter the Brooklyn Tunnel (0.8 MB Codec: DivX3.11a 360×240) New.

THE SECOND PLANE STRIKE ON THE SOUTH TOWER

Plane Hitting South Tower. View from south (10 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×472) Copy.
View from north-east (4.9 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 716×480) Copy.
View from north (13 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×472) Copy.
View from east (1.2 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×356) Copy.
Close view from east (1.3 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×356) Includes the "911 In Plane Site" flash. Copy.
Another view from north (0.8 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×356) Copy.
Short view from north-east (1.2 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 696×472) Copy.
Longer view from north-east (2.8 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 716×480) Copy.

NORTH TOWER DEMOLITION

Video one of the WTC North Tower demolition (2 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 492×408) Copy.
Video two of the WTC North Tower demolition (5.6 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 716×480) Newest.
Video three of the WTC North Tower demolition (0.5 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 676×408) Newest.
Video four of the WTC North Tower demolition (13 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×472) Copy.
Premature Detonations in North Tower Demolition. (4.8 MB Codec: DivX3.11a 692×472) Newest.
North Tower Premature Detonations (Marked) (2.8 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×472) Copy. Newest.
More North Tower Premature Detonations (6.1 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 696×472) Copy.
Another view of the North Tower Predetonations (1.4 MB HiRes Codec: MPEG1 352×264) New.

For those interested, here is an article on the Premature Detonations.

SOUTH TOWER DEMOLITION

Video one of the WTC South Tower demolition (1.6 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 716×480) New.
Video two of the WTC South Tower demolition (2.3 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×408) New.
Video three of the WTC South Tower demolition (1.5 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×352) New.
Video four of the WTC South Tower demolition (1.7 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×356) New.
South Tower Premature Detonations (Marked) (0.4 MB Codec: DivX3.11a 704×480) Newest.

WORLD TRADE CENTER BUILDING SEVEN DEMOLITION

The WTC Building Seven Demolition (0.9 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×408) Copy.
The WTC Building Seven Demolition (another view) (0.8 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×408) Copy.
The WTC Building Seven Demolition (yet another view) (9.5 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×408) Copy.
The WTC Building Seven Demolition - Four (0.8 MB Codec: DivX3.11a 360×240)
The WTC Building Seven Demolition - Five (1.1 MB Codec: DivX3.11a 542×407)

PENTAGON

Pentagon Collapse One (2.2 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 696×472) Copy.
Pentagon Collapse Two (0.8 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 696×472) Copy.
Video one of the Pentagon on Fire (4.2 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×480) New.
Video two of the Pentagon on Fire (3.5 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×464) New.
Video three of the Pentagon on Fire (1.4 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×464) New.
Video of the Pentagon damage from the air (9.6 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×480) New.

WHAT A DEMOLITION LOOKS LIKE

What A Demolition Looks Like (6 MB Codec: DivX3.11a 600×320) New.

WOMAN WAVING FROM WTC NORTH TOWER IMPACT HOLE.

Woman Waving From WTC North Tower Impact Hole. (1.2 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×356) Copy.

The woman is in the lower righthand corner and why this is of interest.

OTHER VIDEO

Painful Deceptions by Eric Hufschmid (windows media player comes with the necessary codec to play these).

Painful Deceptions. Part 1 (39 MB Codec: WMV1 360×240)
Painful Deceptions. Part 2 (42 MB Codec: WMV1 360×240)
Painful Deceptions. Part 3 (35 MB Codec: WMV1 360×240)
Painful Deceptions. Part 4 (28 MB Codec: WMV1 360×240)
Painful Deceptions - Pentagon Update (5 MB WMV1 360×240)

Alternate Painful Deceptions (only the correct stuff about WTC7 (no missile crap))

Painful Deceptions (22 MB Codec: DivX3.11a 360×235). The section on World Trade Center Seven.

WTC Construction Manager (0.8 MB WMV3 320×240) states WTC would survive multiple airplane strikes.
911 In Plane Site Debunked (25 MB Codec: DivX3.11a 360×240)
911 In Plane Site. (104 MB Codec: DivX5 352×240)
911 In Plane Site. (129 MB Codec: Quicktime MOV 352×240)
Von Kleist admitting possible involvement and even guilt, in the events of 9/11 (1.3 MB Codec: DivX3.11a 340×240).

From the page http://www.question911.com/links.php you can download:

All the "Painful Deceptions" videos mentioned above
Painful Deceptions - 911 Commission Report (25 MB WMV1 360×240)
Painful Deceptions - Pentagon Update (5 MB WMV1 360×240) same as above but misnamed "Uranium Report"
911 In Plane Site Directors Cut. 2 parts (45 MB and 47 MB WMV3 320×240)
911 In Plane Site Update (8 MB WMV1 240×160)

MORE 9/11 RESOURCES (ANIMATIONS, BOOKS ETC).

BOOKS:

The New Pearl Harbor by David Ray Griffin (entire book).

ANIMATED GRAPHICS:

Predetonations in the World Trade Center Demolitions Copy 1 and commentary.
North Tower Demolition 0.9 MB Copy 1 and commentary.
South Tower Demolition 2.1 MB Copy 1 and commentary.
First Plane Hits 2.2 MB Copy 1. From Naudet Brothers footage and why this is of interest.
What a jets exhaust does to a car 0.9 MB Copy 1 and why this is of interest.
World Trade Center Seven Demolition 0.6 MB Copy 1.
The dust cloud that gave rise to the WTC6 explosion myth 0.9 MB Copy 1 and why this is of interest.

SOME ARTICLES FROM THE GLOBAL RESEARCH FORUM:

http://globalresearch.ca...ms.net/viewforum.php?f=2

THE 9/11 "MISSILE HITS THE PENTAGON" HOAX.
MANY HI-RESOLUTION VIDEOS OF THE 9/11 HOAX (AND MORE).
WTC TOWERS - PREDETONATIONS OF EXPLOSIVES CAUGHT ON VIDEO.
THE WORLD TRADE CENTER FIRES (NOT SO HOT EH?).
SO WHAT REALLY HAPPENED (TO THE HIJACKED FLIGHTS) ON 9/11?
THE SUPER-LUCKY PENTAGON RETROFIT (A 9/11 SMOKING GUN).
MEDIA RELEASES FAKED PHOTOGRAPHS OF 9-11 PENTAGON EXPLOSION.
THE 9-11 PENTAGON HOAX (WHY A BOEING 757 DID NOT HIT THE PENTAGON).
SO WHAT DID HIT THE PENTAGON? (PROBABLY AN AA BOEING 737)
THE GOVERNMENT FEMA REPORT. ITS AUTHORS DELIBERATELY LIED!!
DID JEWS FRAME THE ARABS FOR 9/11? DID JEWS DO 9/11?
ARREST FOR JEWS CLAIMING GAS CHAMBERS TRUE (BY US MILITARY).
SOME ARTICLES ON THE TRUTH OF THE HOLOCAUST (BONUS VIDEO).
MANY OF THE SUPPOSED 9-11 HIJACKERS ARE STILL ALIVE.
EVIDENCE OF EXPLOSIVES IN THE WORLD TRADE CENTER COLLAPSES.
THE MOST OUTRAGEOUS CONSPIRACY THEORY OF THEM ALL.
COMMENTS ON THE WORLD TRADE CENTER DEMOLITION.
THE GOVERNMENT FEMA "INVESTIGATIONS" - TWIN TOWERS - PART 1
THE GOVERNMENT FEMA "INVESTIGATIONS" - TWIN TOWERS - PART 2
THE GOVERNMENT FEMA "INVESTIGATIONS" - WTC SEVEN
CALCULATIONS SAY 14 TONS OF EXPLOSIVE USED TO DOWN EACH WTC TOWER
SHOCK, HORROR, ALLIANZ AG INSURANCE TO INVESTIGATE WTC FIRES?
Versicherungsgesellschaft Allianz AG zum Nachforschen der WTC-Feuer?
WOMAN WAVING FROM WTC NORTH TOWER IMPACT HOLE (VIDEO).
WATCH THE WTC EXPLOSIONS HERE. WHAT MORE PROOF DO YOU NEED?
YET ANOTHER 9/11 SMOKING GUN (NO AUTOS BLOWN OFF FREEWAY)?
THE RAG "POPULAR MECHANICS" LOSES ALL CREDIBILITY.
http://letsroll911.org = FALSE OPPOSITION IN PLAIN SIGHT.
"911 IN PLANE SITE." A TOTALLY BOGUS PRODUCTION.
THE FAKE EXPLOSION AT WORLD TRADE CENTER SIX.
FACTS ABOUT THE WORLD TRADE CENTER TOWERS.
Joël van der Reijden = MORE FALSE OPPOSITION.
THE PENTA-LAWN 2000 HOAX.

9/11 WEB-SITES

These are deliberately suppressed, so I specially mention them.

http://guardian.150m.com (has smaller images for faster downloads)
http://guardian.250free.com (has smaller images for faster downloads)
http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/
http://911review.org/Wge...nerdcities.com/guardian/
http://thewebfairy.com/nerdcities/

THE COMPLETE GOVERNMENT FEMA REPORT INTO THE WORLD TRADE CENTER COLLAPSES.

Introduction - The FEMA "investigations" Copy 1.
WTC 1 and WTC 2 - The Twin Towers - The FEMA "investigations" Copy 1.
WTC 3 - The FEMA "investigations" Copy 1.
WTC 4,5 and 6 - The FEMA "investigations" Copy 1.
WTC 7 - The FEMA "investigations" Copy 1.
The Bankers Trust Building - The FEMA "investigations" Copy 1.
Peripheral Buildings - The FEMA "investigations" Copy 1.
Overview of Fire Protection in Buildings - The FEMA "investigations" Copy 1.
Structural Steel and Steel Connections - The FEMA "investigations" Copy 1.
WTC Steel Data Collection - The FEMA "investigations" Copy 1.

Please add to this list here http://globalresearch.ca....net/viewtopic.php?t=679 (No Login Necessary).

Copied from http://globalresearch.ca....net/viewtopic.php?t=599

#81 Griffin - WOW! Thanks for the compilation of links.

Well 9/11 was total bull anyway,....

HIGH RESOLUTION VIDEOS OF THE 9/11 HOAX (AND MUCH MORE).

Here you will find hi-resolution video of the (obvious) demolition of World Trade Center Seven and of the (less obvious) demolition of the Towers. The Naudet brothers stunning footage of the first plane hitting the North tower is also presented (at least one of the brothers quite clearly knew the first aircraft was about to hit the North Tower) together with less well known footage of the first plane hitting the tower, accidently caught by someone filming, while waiting in traffic.

If you are using Windows Media Player you need the DivX3.11a codec plug-in (many non-Microsoft movie players come standard with the codecs necessary to play DivX movies (eg Mplayer for Linux)).

If you do not already have it, you can find it here:

http://public.planetmirr...ndows/divx_3.11alpha.zip

The files from public.planetmirror.com are bit for bit the same (I checked) as those I have had on my system for years (with no harmful effects). You unzip the files and double click on Register_DivX.exe

If you wish to learn about DivX movies, in particular, why they sometimes play upside-down, read this thread:

http://globalresearch.ca....net/viewtopic.php?t=599

HIGH RESOLUTION VIDEO

Here HiRes (high resolution) video means video recorded with the DivX3.11a codec with the (variable) bitrate set to 6000 and crispness/smoothness set to 100. The HiRes videos are much larger files than necessary for good viewing. They are meant to convey as much of the original detail as possible.

THE FIRST PLANE STRIKE ON THE NORTH TOWER

The First Plane Hitting The North Tower (13 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×408) Copy.
Video taken while waiting to enter the Brooklyn Tunnel (0.8 MB Codec: DivX3.11a 360×240) New.

THE SECOND PLANE STRIKE ON THE SOUTH TOWER

Plane Hitting South Tower. View from south (10 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×472) Copy.
View from north-east (4.9 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 716×480) Copy.
View from north (13 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×472) Copy.
View from east (1.2 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×356) Copy.
Close view from east (1.3 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×356) Includes the "911 In Plane Site" flash. Copy.
Another view from north (0.8 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×356) Copy.
Short view from north-east (1.2 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 696×472) Copy.
Longer view from north-east (2.8 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 716×480) Copy.

NORTH TOWER DEMOLITION

Video one of the WTC North Tower demolition (2 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 492×408) Copy.
Video two of the WTC North Tower demolition (5.6 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 716×480) Newest.
Video three of the WTC North Tower demolition (0.5 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 676×408) Newest.
Video four of the WTC North Tower demolition (13 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×472) Copy.
Premature Detonations in North Tower Demolition. (4.8 MB Codec: DivX3.11a 692×472) Newest.
North Tower Premature Detonations (Marked) (2.8 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×472) Copy. Newest.
More North Tower Premature Detonations (6.1 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 696×472) Copy.
Another view of the North Tower Predetonations (1.4 MB HiRes Codec: MPEG1 352×264) New.

For those interested, here is an article on the Premature Detonations.

SOUTH TOWER DEMOLITION

Video one of the WTC South Tower demolition (1.6 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 716×480) New.
Video two of the WTC South Tower demolition (2.3 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×408) New.
Video three of the WTC South Tower demolition (1.5 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×352) New.
Video four of the WTC South Tower demolition (1.7 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×356) New.
South Tower Premature Detonations (Marked) (0.4 MB Codec: DivX3.11a 704×480) Newest.

WORLD TRADE CENTER BUILDING SEVEN DEMOLITION

The WTC Building Seven Demolition (0.9 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×408) Copy.
The WTC Building Seven Demolition (another view) (0.8 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×408) Copy.
The WTC Building Seven Demolition (yet another view) (9.5 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×408) Copy.
The WTC Building Seven Demolition - Four (0.8 MB Codec: DivX3.11a 360×240)
The WTC Building Seven Demolition - Five (1.1 MB Codec: DivX3.11a 542×407)

PENTAGON

Pentagon Collapse One (2.2 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 696×472) Copy.
Pentagon Collapse Two (0.8 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 696×472) Copy.
Video one of the Pentagon on Fire (4.2 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×480) New.
Video two of the Pentagon on Fire (3.5 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×464) New.
Video three of the Pentagon on Fire (1.4 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×464) New.
Video of the Pentagon damage from the air (9.6 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×480) New.

WHAT A DEMOLITION LOOKS LIKE

What A Demolition Looks Like (6 MB Codec: DivX3.11a 600×320) New.

WOMAN WAVING FROM WTC NORTH TOWER IMPACT HOLE.

Woman Waving From WTC North Tower Impact Hole. (1.2 MB HiRes Codec: DivX3.11a 692×356) Copy.

The woman is in the lower righthand corner and why this is of interest.

OTHER VIDEO

Painful Deceptions by Eric Hufschmid (windows media player comes with the necessary codec to play these).

Painful Deceptions. Part 1 (39 MB Codec: WMV1 360×240)
Painful Deceptions. Part 2 (42 MB Codec: WMV1 360×240)
Painful Deceptions. Part 3 (35 MB Codec: WMV1 360×240)
Painful Deceptions. Part 4 (28 MB Codec: WMV1 360×240)
Painful Deceptions - Pentagon Update (5 MB WMV1 360×240)

Alternate Painful Deceptions (only the correct stuff about WTC7 (no missile crap))

Painful Deceptions (22 MB Codec: DivX3.11a 360×235). The section on World Trade Center Seven.

WTC Construction Manager (0.8 MB WMV3 320×240) states WTC would survive multiple airplane strikes.
911 In Plane Site Debunked (25 MB Codec: DivX3.11a 360×240)
911 In Plane Site. (104 MB Codec: DivX5 352×240)
911 In Plane Site. (129 MB Codec: Quicktime MOV 352×240)
Von Kleist admitting possible involvement and even guilt, in the events of 9/11 (1.3 MB Codec: DivX3.11a 340×240).

From the page http://www.question911.com/links.php you can download:

All the "Painful Deceptions" videos mentioned above
Painful Deceptions - 911 Commission Report (25 MB WMV1 360×240)
Painful Deceptions - Pentagon Update (5 MB WMV1 360×240) same as above but misnamed "Uranium Report"
911 In Plane Site Directors Cut. 2 parts (45 MB and 47 MB WMV3 320×240)
911 In Plane Site Update (8 MB WMV1 240×160)

MORE 9/11 RESOURCES (ANIMATIONS, BOOKS ETC).

BOOKS:

The New Pearl Harbor by David Ray Griffin (entire book).

ANIMATED GRAPHICS:

Predetonations in the World Trade Center Demolitions Copy 1 and commentary.
North Tower Demolition 0.9 MB Copy 1 and commentary.
South Tower Demolition 2.1 MB Copy 1 and commentary.
First Plane Hits 2.2 MB Copy 1. From Naudet Brothers footage and why this is of interest.
What a jets exhaust does to a car 0.9 MB Copy 1 and why this is of interest.
World Trade Center Seven Demolition 0.6 MB Copy 1.
The dust cloud that gave rise to the WTC6 explosion myth 0.9 MB Copy 1 and why this is of interest.

SOME ARTICLES FROM THE GLOBAL RESEARCH FORUM:

http://globalresearch.ca...ms.net/viewforum.php?f=2

THE 9/11 "MISSILE HITS THE PENTAGON" HOAX.
MANY HI-RESOLUTION VIDEOS OF THE 9/11 HOAX (AND MORE).
WTC TOWERS - PREDETONATIONS OF EXPLOSIVES CAUGHT ON VIDEO.
THE WORLD TRADE CENTER FIRES (NOT SO HOT EH?).
SO WHAT REALLY HAPPENED (TO THE HIJACKED FLIGHTS) ON 9/11?
THE SUPER-LUCKY PENTAGON RETROFIT (A 9/11 SMOKING GUN).
MEDIA RELEASES FAKED PHOTOGRAPHS OF 9-11 PENTAGON EXPLOSION.
THE 9-11 PENTAGON HOAX (WHY A BOEING 757 DID NOT HIT THE PENTAGON).
SO WHAT DID HIT THE PENTAGON? (PROBABLY AN AA BOEING 737)
THE GOVERNMENT FEMA REPORT. ITS AUTHORS DELIBERATELY LIED!!
DID JEWS FRAME THE ARABS FOR 9/11? DID JEWS DO 9/11?
ARREST FOR JEWS CLAIMING GAS CHAMBERS TRUE (BY US MILITARY).
SOME ARTICLES ON THE TRUTH OF THE HOLOCAUST (BONUS VIDEO).
MANY OF THE SUPPOSED 9-11 HIJACKERS ARE STILL ALIVE.
EVIDENCE OF EXPLOSIVES IN THE WORLD TRADE CENTER COLLAPSES.
THE MOST OUTRAGEOUS CONSPIRACY THEORY OF THEM ALL.
COMMENTS ON THE WORLD TRADE CENTER DEMOLITION.
THE GOVERNMENT FEMA "INVESTIGATIONS" - TWIN TOWERS - PART 1
THE GOVERNMENT FEMA "INVESTIGATIONS" - TWIN TOWERS - PART 2
THE GOVERNMENT FEMA "INVESTIGATIONS" - WTC SEVEN
CALCULATIONS SAY 14 TONS OF EXPLOSIVE USED TO DOWN EACH WTC TOWER
SHOCK, HORROR, ALLIANZ AG INSURANCE TO INVESTIGATE WTC FIRES?
Versicherungsgesellschaft Allianz AG zum Nachforschen der WTC-Feuer?
WOMAN WAVING FROM WTC NORTH TOWER IMPACT HOLE (VIDEO).
WATCH THE WTC EXPLOSIONS HERE. WHAT MORE PROOF DO YOU NEED?
YET ANOTHER 9/11 SMOKING GUN (NO AUTOS BLOWN OFF FREEWAY)?
THE RAG "POPULAR MECHANICS" LOSES ALL CREDIBILITY.
http://letsroll911.org = FALSE OPPOSITION IN PLAIN SIGHT.
"911 IN PLANE SITE." A TOTALLY BOGUS PRODUCTION.
THE FAKE EXPLOSION AT WORLD TRADE CENTER SIX.
FACTS ABOUT THE WORLD TRADE CENTER TOWERS.
Joël van der Reijden = MORE FALSE OPPOSITION.
THE PENTA-LAWN 2000 HOAX.

9/11 WEB-SITES

These are deliberately suppressed, so I specially mention them.

http://guardian.150m.com (has smaller images for faster downloads)
http://guardian.250free.com (has smaller images for faster downloads)
http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/
http://911review.org/Wge...nerdcities.com/guardian/
http://thewebfairy.com/nerdcities/

THE COMPLETE GOVERNMENT FEMA REPORT INTO THE WORLD TRADE CENTER COLLAPSES.

Introduction - The FEMA "investigations" Copy 1.
WTC 1 and WTC 2 - The Twin Towers - The FEMA "investigations" Copy 1.
WTC 3 - The FEMA "investigations" Copy 1.
WTC 4,5 and 6 - The FEMA "investigations" Copy 1.
WTC 7 - The FEMA "investigations" Copy 1.
The Bankers Trust Building - The FEMA "investigations" Copy 1.
Peripheral Buildings - The FEMA "investigations" Copy 1.
Overview of Fire Protection in Buildings - The FEMA "investigations" Copy 1.
Structural Steel and Steel Connections - The FEMA "investigations" Copy 1.
WTC Steel Data Collection - The FEMA "investigations" Copy 1.

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Greetings to u all!! I am a concerned Canadian citizen who is very worried about what is happening in your beautiful country. I regularly read bradblog, buzzflash, cannonfire etc. Thanks to a link at Bradblog, It opened my eyes to the so called "government version" of what happened on 9/11. I agree with Teresa's last statement that "anyone who believes that the US government wasn't complicit is a fool". I am in the category #3 or 4 regarding what Mr. Griffin said about what story we believe. However, there are a couple of issues that are confusing, perhaps anyone here has some input?? One issue is the "Osama" tape that was aired just before your last "faux" election, whereby Osama explains why he caused 9/11, (payback for Israeli,American destruction in Lebanon) How could they "fake" that?? Also, the pictures of Mohammad Atta, and co. going through checkpoints at the airports?? The other point is, wasn't there family members that actually did recieve calls from the flight that crashed in Pennsylvania?? The whole thing REEKS of government complicity, and Kudos to Mr. Griffin for his efforts. Also, I salute u all at Bradblog, You folks truly are fantastic, Thank goodness there is light against all the darkness in your country, I pray the truth will come out, and the "Chimp and co." will pay for their crimes against humanity!! Thanx for your time.

Those videos must be the ones taken by the Mossad agents in white vans who were apprehended in New Jersey. They were very excited and pleased while they watched and taped the whole calamity.

Link here.

Related links here, here and here.

Sarah #84:

the guy who runs whatreallyhappened.com argues that bin laden is dead, and that the videos are fake.. he has a few articles on it.. these are from that site:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osamatape.html
http://www.whatreallyhap...ened.com/osamatape2.html
http://www.rense.com/general12/ld.htm

the thing i noticed about the last tape is that he made no mention of the plane that crashed in PA, or the one that hit the pentagon.. the one that hit in PA supposively was going to the capital..

as for the family member phone calls, they probably did receive calls, but the most well known of scott beamer was not a conversation between him and his wife, but him and an operator.. and that tape has never been heard.. also, you may want to review the northwoods document which specifically talks about faking emotional phone calls to family members.. also, some of the transcripts have the caller saying things like 'hey mom? this is john smith', a formal introduction to their mother.. most calls were very short and non-specific.. also, you may want to review this study on the feasiblity of phone calls which were origionally claimed to be from cell phones:
http://physics911.ca/mod...ws/article.php?storyid=6

as for mohomad atta, he was real, real crazy.. you may wish to look up the video 'the venice flying circus' by Danial Hopsicker.. you can watch it here:
http://www.madcowprod.com/

hope that helps.. honestly trying to answer questions is virtually impossible without having a real investigation, and testimony under oath or on a lie detector.. what IS easy to do is disprove many parts of the official story.. best of luck.

Ok, so "Griffin", "God" and "9/11 Truth On American TV" --- what's the deal?

Kira -

??????????????

Peg C. - don't know if you followed my comment or not, but:

Griffin #81, God #83 and "9/11 Truth On American TV" Post #62 on the 9/11 Truth on American TV thread Link

It seems like spam to me. 1 post would be helpful, but 2 long identical posts on this thread and then on the thread linked above seems like obvious overkill.

Besides, the poster is using 3 different names. Not cricket, eh?

DZ #86 Many, many thanx for the links and info, I will check out the links u gave right now, but first I wanted to thank you for your help. You are right, until there is an independent investigation, all we can do is "debunk" the official story. In addition to what Mr. Griffin said, wasn't many members of the National guard, or some other similiar govt. agency sent to New York on Sept.10 (and not told why) This is in itself a huge red flag!!

Griffin@here.now
God@hell.com

????????????

Griffin #81 I wanted to point out, using one segment of the video listings (thanks for posting these), how both sides when arguing an issue can become dogmatic and begin to make "conclusions of ultimate fact", which is a no-no in the circles of high debate. Such as professionally done court cases in federal court and well-done debates in the best universities.

Take for example naming some of the videos with the term "Demolition". This is an arrogant act because it is a "conclusion of ultimate fact". In other words, if there were to ever be and independent inquiry, this form of presentation would not be allowed. The reason is that it is an intellectual coup de etat where one of the advocates of an issue has already done what the independent inquiry has been authorized to do. That is decide if the building was demolished or whether it was destroyed by an aircraft impact and following fire.

It would be just as arrogant for the other side to name the video "South Tower Destruction by Flight x Impact and Subsequent Fire Storm". Either name is wrong because it is biased and has already decided what happened - it has concluded the matter before the authority (the independent inquiry) has even spoken. This is clearly an unworthy enterprise.

I mention it to throw cold water on the passions that inevitably ignite and burn out of control unless cool heads begin to focus on the issues and the evidence. Believe me, in these official and professional debates everything is pretty much contested and both sides will have positions on all the evidence. This is required in thorough investigations.

We do not want to criticize the 9/11 Commission and then turn right around and do exactly as they did.

Sarah #84

Bin Laden seems to me to be somewhat of an actor, if the statements are really his, from the last few years. He is dramatic, loves the spotlight, and sounds to me as if he is exaggerating a lot.

Dredd #92 -

Exactly right. Those two long links posts are hype-spam. "Inquiry" presupposes reason and judgement, a balance unachievable without an open mind.

My open mind, however, led me to conclude early on that the "surprise attacks" were a criminal hoax.

The best coverage (and the best newspaper) of 9-11 is the "American Free Press." They have a pullout issue of 50 unanswered 9-11 questions, you can order separately. The story our government is giving, is FALSE! I suggest everyone visit americanfreepress.net.

For Dredd: If we say (as Rev. Griffin said) "A building cannot be reduced to dust either from a fire or from vertical collapse, it requires an explosion...thus the building must have sabotaged," where such a statement is based on scientific knowledge, is that "a conclusion of ultimate fact?"

I don't know if Griffin is right or wrong on the science matter. But assume we interviewed ten scientists, and they all agreed with him. Would you still insist that he has arrived at a conclusion of ultimate fact in saying the building was sabotaged?

Is there any reason to watch the video of Griffin's presentation, or will the audio suffice? I don't want to download that huge file if I don't have to. Thanks.

Hi Hoyt! I enjoyed watching Griffin, but it won't make much difference in the content of his talk.

You can catch a re-run of Griffin's speech on:

==== C-Span 2 =====
May 7 at 2pm:
David Ray Griffin, The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions

C-Span 2 schedule page:

C-Span 2 - Book TV

OMG = I am SO SORRY!! Winter Patriot help!!

In my post #98 The time for the re-run of Griffin's speech is:

2:30pm --- NOT 2pm

This is correct:

==== C-Span 2 =====

David Ray Griffin, The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions

I AM THRILLED!!!

David Ray Griffin is my man. The tide is turning.

Got a fun little story to share:

Today I was troubleshooting a network problem for a local company when I remembered that one of my USB memory sticks that I carry around (with drivers, scripts, common utils, misc. files etc.), has a copy of Griffins presentation on it. Since repairs would take a couple hours I decided to expose my "captive" customers to Griffin as I worked.

Within minutes the entire office had me surrounded asking questions about this man. I left them a copy on the computer I was using, along with links to the C-Span2 schedule and 9-11 sites on the 'net before I finished. When I left the office an employee was already burning Griffin's presentation to CD.

It had never occurred to me before, but my everyday tools can be used to spread the word while getting paid for it!

Torqued -

What a GREAT story! Push away...we're all doing what we can too!

That is totally, absolutely wonderful, Torqued. I am proud to be your friend. Oh that feels good!

Gee whiz, think how many news starved people are out there in the world.

Torqued, that was a divinely inspired moment! Wow! Light a candle and the darkness will disappear.

Woo-Hoo!!!!

Torqued, you are exactly in the beat. I got this e-mail tonight:

My own answer to the "what to do" question:

The first step is to get informed. Reading Griffin's two 9/11 books, if you haven't already, is probably the best approach. Then you can join the effort to get this information into the hands of religious leaders and the media. I've done mass mailings to all the churches, synagogues and mosques in my area, south-central Wisconsin, and write to all the local media outlets regularly. (Polite, rational discourse works better than raving about how outrageous it all is--even though it IS outrageous.) I hope to start doing seminars/discussions at houses of worship, and plan to distribute videos of Griffin's talk. The official C-Span video is available (see below); you could record it or buy it, and show it to local folks and/or religious leaders or congregations. We hope to have a better quality video of the same lecture available in the near future.

Strike while the iron is hot.

Thanks much, DZ.

Thanks everyone, it was fun! I can't do something like that with all my customers but these people have known me for a long time. I knew they wouldn't be offended.

good job, torqued!

Teresa #105:
you can download the entire griffin lecture in hi-res right now..

http://www.911blogger.co...-griffin-in-madison.html

USB for truth.
he "torqued" the truth.

To DZ

DZ Thanx again for those links, I can't believe what I have been reading! Looks like the Chimp and his military empire, along with the Israeli's, are getting set to bomb Iran's nuclear sites this summer. Scott Ritter is right again, SCARY!! sorry for the double post. 9/11 was the "catastrophe" the neocons needed to further their agenda, this is all "blowing me away" it's incomprehensible a govt. would do that to their own people, but after reading what's out there, only a fool would still believe the official govt. version! Keep up the good fight everyone, I salute u all!!

RLM # 96 Yes. Noone but the Independent Investigative Authority (e.g. a court; judge, jury) has the legitimate purpose of:

1) the acceptance of valid and legitimate evidence
2) fair and impartial consideration of that evidence
3) fair and impartial listening to both sides of the argument

The presenters (e.g. lawyers) cannot do the job of the judge or the jury. They must do:

1) the presentation of valid and legitimate evidence
2) valid advocacy and argument for their belief and position
3) based upon a reasonable position derived from the evidence

The professional presenter, whether for the prosecution or defense, understands that "the jury" is the one that derives the verdict, and they as presenters surely do not.

When a professional begins to do the job of the jury that professional has failed because that presenter has left a hole in the evidentiary presentation.

It is a discipline that takes training, practice, and skill.

I do not expect non-professionals to understand it in those terms ... but I do expect people to be able to be a fair and impartial jury member.

Why? That is who and what juries are composed of. And no one can sit on a jury if biased.

Likewise when a jury member does the job of the presenter that jury person has violated the oath of the juror.

As in all such cases there will be experts at every level who will testify as to both positions. For demolition and against demolition as the cause for the collapse.

The jury will decide who to believe and who not to believe.

No one else has the right to do the jury job, and the jury can't do anyone else's job.

RE: #114

There is a difference when a Grand Jury is considering a case. There is really only one side presented to a grand jury, which is the prosecution side.

In that case the grand jury only considers whether or not there is enough evidence to bring the charge or charges.

In this context that would mean determining whether the 9/11 Commission was valid. And in that context I think the grand jury would say "NO" and would, in effect, order an independent inquiry, by saying the 9/11 Commission should be charged with wrongdoing.

My own experience in the 9/11 matter was like Winter Patriot's, as he explains in his blog.

I "knew" on 9/11 that we were being fed disinformation and I suspected a Pearl Harbor type of affair.

I learned much later that the neocons had been calling for "A New Pearl Harbor" for perhaps a decade before 9/11.

Hi all you new folk! Glad you're here.

Thanx Kira and I must say, I am sure glad u guys are here too, from a very concerned Canadian about what is happening in your country. Thank Goodness there are some reasonable, rational and sane Americans who aren't duped by the lies of govt. and mainstream media. I have been reading some very scary stuff from a site called www.rense.com, that DZ was kind enough to mention to me. Click on the heading titled "Yisraelim prepare for invasion of Americas" it just blew me away and corresponds to what is happening now, and has been in the works for a long time. The neo-cons running America, are doing everything for Israel, they don't care about the American people, it is all for ISRAEL!! Iraq was just the beginning of their sinister plans!!

Might be interesting to those who haven't seen it (which included me until a few minutes ago):

http://www.amics21.com/911/pentagon.html#Main

viewing time approx. 5 minutes.

SHOWTIME right NOW: Penn & Teller are badmouthing the "conspiracy theorists" who question the official 9/11 story.

I agree, Griffin is a well spoken Gentleman.

I like his answer to the conspiracy question. Many people have been able to keep a secret. and may also be in danger if they talk.

It is amazing this was on Cspan. There is some hope that the truth will come out. Maybe this will get some momentum going in the search for the truth. The leaked document about the war agenda form England came at a perfect time.

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