I've been away recently, so I've been catching up on my BradBlog, and therefore very quiet lately. But I do have to say this:

The trolling that went on here last week was very professional. Did you notice that? Two of 'em. Came in out of the blue firing in all directions and backtracking at the same time. Did you notice that?

And did you also notice how quickly and suddenly they disappeared? Lah dee dah.

Thanks, WP. Now figure out how to set this thread!

Winter P -

I sure did notice that! Which is why I stayed away from the "discussion." I was fairly well convinced they were ACVR-connected and wanted nothing to do with them. Unfortunately, some of us do not have cautionary instincts. Nor are all of us very prudent. These people are sneaky, silky killers.

im thinking about berlin and the iron curtain and wondering why so many people here in the us are sooo anxious to rush into the same situation the germans were repressed in ? Alex Jones seems to be a great voice for the people until you hear him ranting about drawing the iron curtain shut!?! is it just me? please help me to understand the positive view of "closing the borders"

Inability to resist trolls is a symptom of a larger problem, inordinately strong neuro-endocrine reactions to words and meanings, often with uncontrolled flushing of the face. Over at the European Society for General Semantics we work on methods for controlling that reaction, but I have to admit the methods fail badly in most cases, particularly here in the U.S. The methods work if used, but it is nearly impossible to get them used. So we focus on training the few; hopefully they will each go train a few more, and so on.

Because we cannot eliminate the urge to feed trolls, I believe that trolls should be banned by list owners and moderators, as a workaround. This is like keeping diseases away from people whose immune systems are impaired.

some things ,don't go away if you just ignore them

Chemo -

You're right on. Our "trust-functions" are impairing our "autonomic-immune systems" when assailed with "factual counter-intelligence." In other words: we begin to doubt when confronted with conrtradictory intelligence. Duh.

We must erect a wall of self-trust, because this is our weakest bastion. Love. That is STRONG. A huge movement can be built upon it. And it cannot be discredited, either morally or practically.

Chemo -

You're right on. Our "trust-functions" are impairing our "autonomic-immune systems" when assailed with "factual counter-intelligence." In other words: we begin to doubt when confronted with conrtradictory intelligence. Duh.

We must erect a wall of self-trust, because this is our weakest bastion. Love. That is STRONG. A huge movement can be built upon it. And it cannot be discredited, either morally or practically.

For heaven's sake. We're supposed to be tolerant, progressive people. You don't ban someone for expressing an opinion. Please. Even if they taunt and provoke. It is well within reason. They are human beings. You don't like them. You don't want to associate with them. But this is a free forum. We should most of all protect that freedom. That is so much more important than the individual personalities.

The best way, is to let whoever wants to communicate with anyone..do it. If you don't like it you can skip the posts, or leave and come back later. Or practice controlling the emotional reaction.

I'm really amazed. Do you want to be like the right wing sites that ban people? I've heard complaints here about that. And conversely, I've heard that the Bradblog is one of the best in hearing people out. I think that's a pretty important trait in this game of war we're in. It will serve as protection in the long run.

Please, bear with me.

And they aren't here that much.

For what it's worth, here's my view on 'taking' the bait that 'trollers' throw in the 'water': It's a fine line we have to tread [and I think we have done very well here, by the way] ...

if we don't answer their taunting questions then it may look as if we don't have any answers. So we're more or less obliged to respond, somehow. If we give good arguments and sources for the things that we're saying, then those who are reading but not commenting can learn a great deal from the discussion that ensues.

The grain of sand in the oyster, eh what?

On the other hand, if we let the trolls set the agenda then we're wasting our time [and rewarding theirs].

As for banning, I can give you my reasoning on the issue and if you disagree that's fine. By the way, Brad may disagree but he's not here at the moment so we can't ask him. Please understand that this is only my opinion.

At this blog, I think it's better not to ban the trolls because our other contributors are so good. We know you can shred the trolls if a debate comes down to issues and facts, and we think you're smart enough to keep steering the conversations back to issues and facts, and therefore the trolls do the blog very little damage [certainly not as much as they would have liked, and that may be why they have gone away again]

Personally some of my best work has been directed at trolls so, yeah, I've got a few pearls out of the deal. Not what they would have liked. And what don't kill you makes you stronger.

Here's another reason: It gives us the moral high ground. This an open marketplace of ideas. That's what democracy is supposed to be about. You can say what you think and if it makes sense then people will take you seriously. Otherwise not. We're all bright enough to disregard the occastional post that doesn't make any sense.

Here's another reason: I was 'musically active' at the time and I can tell you: it certainly didn't hurt the Sex Pistols to have "God Save The Queen" banned in England. If the British aristocrats had all sneered at it and said 'yeah yeah, heard it before, yawn', it would have still done well [it was a great rock track!] but it would never have been as big as it was. Neither would the Pistols, for that matter. Long tangent maybe --- but in my opinion banning rarely works the way it was meant to.

I think readers will learn more from this blog [trolls and all] than they would if we censored the comments or banned people from commenting.

I may be wrong and I've been wrong before too, but this time I have the keys!

Beautifully stated, Winter p.

And yes, we've done so well here. Plus comes the feeling of pleasure that we are who we are.

well now I've read some more comments and I find that Peg has actually asked more than twice before she got her open thread...

So sorry, Peg!

And it doesn't have to be all about trolls and trolling either, just post whatever you want now that the THREAD is OPEN!!

Who here has ever advocated silencing any voice? This is a non-issue and a distraction hoping to discredit this forum.

Well then, Miss Peg C... may I quote you in hopes of regaining our good standing. You brought up one of the most important things of all, in my opinion:

"We must erect a wall of self-trust, because this is our weakest bastion. Love. That is STRONG. A huge movement can be built upon it. And it cannot be discredited, either morally or practically."

Self-trust, self respect, and familiarity with our personal power. That's where the fix starts.

Thanks for the contrary opinions, and for listening to mine.

Now, what am I reading? That Mark Crispin Miller book about Bush, not the first one, which I have already read. I don't do much reading these days, though, so it could take me a while.

I disagree with MCM's characterization of Bush as not dumb. It is true that Bush speaks lucidly when the topic is killing and maiming and stealing and torturing, but he does not speak deeply or meticulously. You would never confuse him with a scholar. For the job in which he is found, Bush is quite a stupid man; he simply becomes more stupid when he is anxious about or bored with a subject.

Consider, he majored in history. The man majored in history, but is he able to draw upon what he was taught? It is as if he learned nothing, and he can learn nothing. He cannot learn a thing, and so he pretends that never learning or changing is a virtue, which he calls steadiness, or determination, or whatever; but really his just being stupid.

Good morning,

I agree with everyone. How's that for an ambivilent, people pleaser?!

I noticed last week that a couple of commenters (mainly Savanster), were able to gradually draw the trolls, through well reasoned arguments, into some decent, point, counterpoint discussions. Ienjoyed reading through it, I agree that we skould ignore them, as if I have any solid ground under me, when the post ignorant, inflammatory comments. I didn't hear anyone advocate banning, nor would I say the same, but at the same time I think that doubts raised in our own positions are not bad things.

Why don't we approach like a boxer approaches, and trains for a fight.........by using sparring partners to hone their skills? In this way we can say that they are contributing to cause.

Gotta go to work,
Love all you guys,
Supersoling

In a big hurry, see all the typos.

Peace

Greetings to all. I am going to go back to the trolling topic for a moment even though it seems to have been moved on from since I am guilty in a few thread to feeding the trolls.

First, I am reletively new here. I thought that this was an open forum for discussion. I never thought past that to what the agenda for the trolls was - so I responded to them. I wasn't necessary red faced and angry. I was just taking it as a debate.

Second, I never thought that I was letting them see my agenda or our agenda - I thought it was just discussing facts. If I was wrong - I apologize. It was a natural reaction to a comment.

But lastly, and I agree with Winter Patriot - keep steering them to the topics at hand and some of my best work has been troll inspired. Not letting them come in here and rip the place apart with useless arguements is important - but so is not banning them. Our Freedoms are some of the most important things in America. Bush and co. have taken away enough of our freedoms - let's not be like them. One of the things I love about this blog is that anyone is free to come and post an opinion without being unfairly attacked. That is also one of the reasons this is the only blogs that I've ever been on where that actually happens. Probably why I keep coming back.

So, those are my points on the trolls for what they are worth. Now - onto bigger and better things. What am I reading right now? Brad's Blog. Having been away for over a year - I spend most of my spare time feeding my need for info by going into the past blogs and catching up on things. Other than that - I am working on creating a writing web site where fiction, non-fiction short stories can be posted along with song lyrics and poetry. It will be an open site for anyone creative. That and my family take up almost 18 hours a day. That and posting here. :p

Trolls are interested in one thing...getting a rise out of people they dislike, simply for the thrill it gives them. They are not interested in discussing anything; in fact, most don't have the intellect to carry on an intelligent discussion.

So why respond? Why lower yourself to that level? To argue with a troll is to become one. I don't think it matters much whether they're organized or not; the purpose is to provoke anger in people they can't and won't argue with on any rational basis.

If you want to be an uber-troll, use multiple handles, or I like to call them "avatars." Then argue with yourself. I really don't think people should do that, because acting like you are nuts can make it habitual, and habitually acting nuts is one way to be nuts.

Re: trolling -

I don't feed the trolls as a rule, I ignore them when their comments are obviously designed to distract from the topic or to bash someone's post rather than provide an alternate opinion for discussion purposes.

However, we have to realize that there are many, many people to whom a lot of what we know or surmise is completely new information. Cognitive dissonance is a POWERFUL thing, and some, especially those who have identified with the GOP for all of their life, are having a hard time coming to terms with the changes brought to their party by the neocons. The party that exists now is NOTHING like the party that existed years ago, but to those who consider themselves Christian Conservatives, the only other choice being to join the liberal party that they consider (in some cases, literally) "Satan's spawn", to speak out against those in power right now is the ultimate sin - even worse if they helped to put those people into power.

Nobody likes admitting they were fooled, and they ESPECIALLY don't want it pointed out to them by "the enemy" - in this case, us.

I vote on not having the trolls banned either, because sometimes they really don't know what we're talking about, they think we're just angry because "their guy" got elected - and their coming here is a chance to educate them. We have to take the reins and keep steering them back to the topic, but we have to do it gently and with facts, not just opinions.

If they didn't have some doubt about their established beliefs, however subconcious that doubt, they wouldn't bother to come here and argue a specific topic. If they're only here to insult, ignoring them WILL eventually drive them away - it takes two to make an argument.

One of the secrets I've taught my child about debating someone with a different opinion - if the person resorts to name calling or starts to attack YOU instead of the issue, you've already won the debate - they're just trying to save face. At that point, you're wasting your breath anyway - just smile, say something nice (like, "I'd love to stay here and chat with you, but I really need to take care of something, thank you for sharing your opinion, you have a nice day now"), and walk away.

Sorry for the rambling and any typos, I'm caffeine challenged right now - this is me, completely unfiltered *s* Y'all have a good one.

BTW, reading all the comments -

I really like you people, y'all ROCK!

AND - Winter Patriot - just wanted to let you know, sorry for not commenting more on your blog, but I do read it. It just seems pointless to keep posting "I agree" (or, in southernese - "I HEARD THAT!")

:-) You keep blogging hon, you make a lot of sense.

I don't know whether "caffeine challenged" means too little or too much of it. Caffeine is one of those weird drugs that makes you more relaxed at first, but jumpier after a while. Nicotine, too, I think.

I completely gave up coffee, because it upset my stomach and even decaf made me jumpy, somehow. But I'm a tea drinker and am addicted to caffeine, which is a really major component of tea leaf.

One of the things I worry about is if there is a nuclear war between Pakistan and India then will any of the tea regions become too contaminated? So you couldn't get that tea anymore, by any means. See how I keep my priorities? Makes it easier to laugh through each day, hah, hah.

I don't know whether "caffeine challenged" means too little or too much of it. Caffeine is one of those weird drugs that makes you more relaxed at first, but jumpier after a while. Nicotine, too, I think.

I completely gave up coffee, because it upset my stomach and even decaf made me jumpy, somehow. But I'm a tea drinker and am addicted to caffeine, which is a really major component of tea leaf.

One of the things I worry about is if there is a nuclear war between Pakistan and India then will any of the tea regions become too contaminated? So you couldn't get that tea anymore, by any means. See how I keep my priorities? Makes it easier to laugh through each day, hah, hah.

I think I'm thinking double.

On trolls: don't feed, but don't ban. We don't need to isolate ourselves like Bush in a town hall meeting because we're better than that.

Now, on to the business of what an open thread is all about:

What's on my mind are the 2004 exit polls and what we can do for 2006 and beyond. Most of you have no doubt seen the recent analysis by US Count Votes. Lots of prominent statisticians have a big problem with the exit polls, and Edison/Mitofky's explanation is quite poor. Either the exit poll was bad, or the vote counting was bad. E/M says Kerry voters MAY have responded more to the exit poll, yet the data suggests the opposite, if anything. It's also noteworthy that hand counted paper ballots had almost no error in the exit poll, whereas all mechanical vote counting was WAY off. I won't rehash all of that, I think we're all on the same page.

So what do we do? I think we need a much more people-driven exit poll. Knowing what I know now, I don't like the idea of the MSM funding the exit poll. Perhaps funded by HAVA money + citizen donations? All of the raw 2006 exit poll data MUST be available on election night, on the internets, for all to see and analyze. I don't know exactly how we should do it, but we don't need to completely reinvent the wheel - other countries do accurate exit polls, so we should use that as a model.

But what is absolutely critical is accuracy, and collecting enough data in a transparent way that the exit poll results have high statistical power. We may not get any substantial election reform. Vote counting may be even less transparent in 2006 and 2008. We can see from Brad's reporting and elsewhere that people "all the way to the top" like James Baker and the RNLA are fighting hard to delay, obfuscate, muddy the waters, misinform, etc. They are fighting hard against transparent voting. And so far, they have been winning, given the current state of things. Unfortunately in this case, winning begets more winning, in a positive feedback loop. Each election cycle with stolen seats and no productive investigation results in more power for the vote stealers, more refined methods, and more boldness for the next time.

A good exit poll will either induce honest vote counting, or vote tampering will be detected (in a way that the media can't ignore...hopefully). We need to do this people-driven exit poll in 2006, 2008, and forever.

Hi, everyone. Love you all.

Hi, Bejammin075 - I'm completely supportive of your ideas concerning the polls. But, do not given up on having fair elections in 2006. The fact that those who DON'T want honest, fair elections are fighting hard is to be expected. But that does not mean they are going to win. They only win if Americans let them. They are only a handful of people compared to many millions of Americans. And the minority of uninformed who DO support the current powers "that be" would not support them if they understood what is going on. So, it is success based on lies; a situation that is destined to unravel.

So, continue to devote energy towards exposing the fraud, creating fair elections, as well as accurate polls that track the elections.

Have a great day, all.

good comments from lots of people here and I would like to address them all but I haven't time... just a few, then

Peg C: I can see you are upset and I can sympathize, in a general way: a lot of us are upset. Heck we're all very angry, aren't we? But what, exactly, do you mean when you say "clean up this thread"?

Bejammin075: yes, exactly. And more besides. I've been studying the latest [link] and I was not expecting much but it has been blowing me away. Not expecting much because I thought I had already seen more than enough evidence of fraud; blowing me away because this is even more convincing than anything I have seen before. [I spent many years teaching math, including statistics, and I can see that the authors know exactly what they are talking about.]

ShadowTwinChaos: there's no need to apologize. As I've been saying, we can't just shut up and let the trolls take over. You and others did a good job of answering them. No problem.

Kestrel: thanks for the kind words. Comment or not, as you wish. No prob.

Chemo: uber-trolling would be easily detected unless the people using multiple handles also had multiple internet connections. Virtually the only hard-and-fast rule here is: thou shalt use only one name. Multiple posts under multiple names coming from the same source will be deleted, replaced by an explanation of what happened.

Everyone: thanks for your input and please keep posting. Even though Brad is gone this is still a good group and the material we post every day is extremely useful for those who are reading but not posting.

Footnote on last week's trolls: Those guys were pros. Vert sophisticated but also in the literal sense. They worked their butts off trying to derail us but when the work week was over they went home. When professional trolls work here it means we've hit another nerve.

Back when Atty. Jimmo started in here, I suggested to everyone in here not to debate with him, but certainly don't ban him, either. That's why I stuck up for him when there was talk of doing so. I'd rather see the good members of this blog practice the discipline it takes to allow him to "die on the vine". It's good practice!

If someone with a different viewpoint came in here, and argued his/her point intelligently, I would welcome it (I know - it doesn't happen very often). However, a "bait-er" is just that. They're only trying to get a rise out of you, and "fish" you in, at whatever cost. If you "bite", it's not their fault.

Someone with an opposing viewpoint is NOT a troll. Someone who is attempting to "bait" you to lose your perspective, and cool, IS a troll. If you "feed" them, you have no one to blame but yourself.

I'll never direct a reply to any of these trolls. It is time ill spent.

A succesful friend of mine once said to me, "a successful person will concentrate on selling his product to those that are likely to buy, and spend no time on those who won't, then trains his 'eye' to know one from the other".

I think this quote applies to the futility in acknowledging trolls. Be mindful of what level you stoop to.

What I'm reading:
"Twelve Thousand Years, American Indians in Maine".
It's a mostly archeological study of native life during and at the end of the last ice age in Maine and the northeast in general. When I grow up I want to be an archeologist

What I'm thinking:
I'm hoping Tony Blair loses his bid for re-election next month, but wondering if his buddy George has given him the inside scoop on how to avoid that.
I'm thinking about the 16 service persons killed in Afghanistan today, and the four killed in Iraq yesterday.
I'm thinking that Tom Delay won't be around much longer since he's becoming a liability and Bush is getting ready to kick him to the curb.
I'm thinking about how much I love and need my wife and my kids, and hope that some day I can find a way to fully express to them how fortunate I feel.

What I want to know:
I want to know everything. My brain is like a sponge, and I can never seem to get enough information.
I want to know that we will all continue to meet here, even when we have minor disagreements.

P.S. Winter Patriot, I'm with Kestrel regarding your blog. I do read it, and it's good. I like your style. Hell, I just like intelligent people who can express themselves, and you do that well.

Re: trolls

I was guilty of feeding at first then didn't have time to come back and correct - you guys did a great job! Sorry about that, I just got angry real quick.

When I did get the time to come what I saw was mutilple instances of attempted thread hijack and LOTS and LOTS of reframing - they were very good and you guys did a really good job. RESPECT! GeneK was pretty lucid and I was glad he showed up - disagreed with a lot of what he was saying, but at least he was polite and rational and got us to sharpen our saw as it were, always a good thing.

What I'm reading: The best democracy money can buy,by Greg Palast. Very, very well written and researched, but I can only read about eight pages in one sitting as the content send my blood pressure through the ceiling.

Supersoling: The general consensus over here is that Blair will still win, but his majority will be considerably reduced. The Conservative party are fairly irrelevant, they'll hold their safe seats and maybe take a couple of marginas from Labour, but won't do particuarly well. The Liberals will probably make the best gains of all the parties but it's too early to call how well.

Wouldn't it be great if the Liberals won? The MSM would have to start using the 'L' word without looking like they had a bad taste in their mouth

Mind you, that wouldn't last long, because the British troops would be out of Iraq mucho rapido and Charles Kennedy would be very unlikely to roll over and let dubya tickle his tummy like Blair does. Then it would be down with the british all over again - Liberty Muffins anyone?

Keep the faith siblings, you all rock.

power of love vs love of power

re Peg #15 the comment that started the talk of banning people was #5 and it was phrased like this

Because we cannot eliminate the urge to feed trolls, I believe that trolls should be banned by list owners and moderators, as a workaround. This is like keeping diseases away from people whose immune systems are impaired.

And another thing..

The beginning of a rift?

We can only hope!

Winter -

My comment #15 had to do with NOT banning opinions. Please clean up this thread.

Yes, Mmiixx #17.

Peg C

I am sorry you are upset. It makes me sad.
I felt it too. But, now will use it as a learning experience, chalk it up as lesson well learned. Hey, it's not everyday one comes face to face with Stalking, hidious predators. We are a threat to their livelihood, and that lifestyle they are soooo accustomed to.
The more effective this movement gets, the more aggressive they will get. I know, I know. DFTT. Sor-ry. Completed my anger management class yesterday, which was to sit with my grandchildren and watch South Park.
C'mon Peg C, give us another peek of that lovely, pink dancing elephant!

Well, here's some good news anyway.

Seems old Dubya isn't has popular as they would like. Just something to put a smile on your face.

Shadowtwinchaos #40
It is good to see that even if Bush was 10% more popular, he would still be the least popular president at this point in a 2nd term.

What also strikes me is that this is with the backdrop of the totally irresponsible MSM. People feel this way DESPITE the MSM. If the most important news actually rose to the top and replaced the trivial, and if that news was reported fairly, Bush would probably be at 30% approval (I saw some interesting analysis of Nixon's poll numbers, and even at the end when he resigned, there was a hard core of 20-25% that always approved).

Okay, y'all, what do you think?

Your passport, please

U.S. announces new regulations for Canadians

How else are they going to keep everyone without a rich and powerful daddy from crossing into Canada once the draft-that-isn't-going-to-happen happens?

...KestrelBrighteyes
Its about control as homeland security is a fable , are all the junkies "clean" now because their supply has stopped at the border ,are all the pot smokers "hanging out" for a joint because their supply has stopped at the border because their supply has stopped at the border ,are all the employers of "illegal aliens" employing Americans now because their supply has stopped at the border?
If you can smuggle in a pound of pot you can smuggle in a pound of C4.

Dawookie - wouldn't it be great if Blair lost?! I think I would say it out loud (even to myself) cheerfully everyday, until GWB was forced out of office. Then I could find a little peace in my heart.

Shadowtwinchaos - since I don't believe GWB won the election by having the most votes from the people who voted, it doesn't surprise me that he is not popular. He wasn't popular enough to win; he's not popular now. And he will continue to lose popularity until he is run out of office. A lot of work to be done - but well worth it! Guess this poll and it's results were overlooked by those fiddling with the truth and counting the final numbers. Well, the bad guys can't be everywhere all the time can they?

Oh yes, trolls.

If they are talking silliness - just ignore them.

But if they are spreading untrue propaganda (lies presented as facts), then they must be addressed. The reason the professional liars have gotten so far in America to date, is due to the silence from the other side. And there are many individuals who read the posts on this site who are not the hard-core "us". So, the untruths must be logically addressed.

As you say, Winter, we must distinguish from the silliness to be ignored - and misrepresentations which harm our cause for true democracy, which must be addressed - and without losing control of our own agenda.

I think, on the whole, the posters to this site have done very well (even the odd insult to the opposition has given me a giggle when it was well-deserved).

BTW - the next time the Gallop Organization conducts this poll, they should ask:

1. Did you vote for GWB?

2. Do you approve of his performance?

This would be another confirmation that GWB was NOT elected by the people of the United States. Does the Gallop Org. have the courage or integrity to do this????

WP, you asked What Are You Reading? What Are You Thinking?? and What Do You Want To Know???

I am reading "Van Gogh, The Complete Paintings", by Walther and Metzger, ISBN 3-8228-1215-3, printed in Slovenia, 740 pages.

Been away a week ... I am thinking I am glad I missed the trolls ...

And I want to know if all my blogger friends here are doing ok?

I just contacted Gallop and asked them to conduct an honest and accurate poll asking people if they voted for GWB. Let's see if they have courage and integrity...

I have never been accused of stopping anyone in a fit of anger.

When you gotta blow, you gotta blow.

I find your fit of rage within the bounds of being civilized, Peg C. You attacked me and I survived.

Re #47: Welcome back, Dredd. Nice to have you back. I can't speak for everyone obviously but in answer to your question, I'm doing ok, considering. I hope you're well too.

Re #48: Peggy I'll buy you a case of chablis if they do!

Dumbutt has been unpopular for a long, long time. I don't think any dictator rises to power without the people's support at first.
I don't see him do anything but lose. That has always been his game. He ruins everything. His greatest talent.

I am going to partake of the Chablis that Winter plans to buy for Peggy, and celebrate the demise of the Republican Party. Even though I prefer red wine.

Does the GAO have any cred as an independant watchdog, or is this likely to be another whitewash?

Dredd #47 - Awww...Van Gogh is and has always been my favorite artist - my son's too, for that matter. He freaked out his kindergarten teacher when they visited the local art museum and pointed to one of his paintings and said, "Van Gogh did that one, didn't he?"

I asked him once when he was about four why he likes Van Gogh, he said, "Because he makes his stars move"

I recently asked him the same question (he's 12 now), and he said, "Because you can tell what he was feeling by just looking how he painted"

The boy has an artist's heart (and yeah, I'm proud)

Reading: Not much, I don't read much.. Dyslexia makes reading not fun... though, still reading BradBlog (my #2 source, RawStory has become #1 because of the rolling news-stories). Instead of reading, I watch/talk/etc.. been talking to official groups to lear the laws that I need to invoke in a personal matter..

Thinking: entirely too much to ever put into any kind of surmizment. Though, some off the top things are.. Why is it that humans seem to be increasingly less and less intelligent? I'd bet studies show we're smarter, but I sure see a lot of ignorant people around.. and it's worse when it touches your life directly.. My daughter's mother is closing her eyes to her husband's seizures and letting him drive my daughter around. Now I have to engage in a legal battle to gain custody of my daughter to protect her from her own mother.. I'm thinking "man, this sucks". I'm also thinking "what kind of world do we live in when greedy bastards rule the day?".. The prediciment here in the U.S isn't just about us, it's about a global situtation; Greed and curruption is running amok and the U.S. was supposed to be above that.. we've strayed and are entering a new age of slavery. I'm also thinking, "sheesh.. to have to worry about losing our rights as a nation isn't bad enough? I have to worry about my daughter losing her rights too? and what if her mom manages to shrug off the abuse charges, then what can I do to protect my own child, let alone a misguided country?".. I'm thinking I don't eat well enough, but don't know what I should do about it.. I was thinking of getting a telescope, but now I'm thinking I"ll be spending that money on lawyers to try and force the "right thing".. I was also thinking it's about time to play more online games for the night, but then I was thinking "how do you think it's time to play a game when the world is falling apart?!?!", to which I think "well, you have to vent sometime, somehow".. I think I think too much (and have been accused of that on MANY occasions).. all this I thought in the few minutes before writing this.. now I'm thinking thousands more things.. I think my head might explode..

I want to know: When will all the madness stop and I (and everyone else, for that matter) be able to just sit back and relax and enjoy this miracle that is life..

Oh, and on trolls.. no banning unless they clearly abuse the board (spamming, nasty name calling, etc).. Ignore them ("don't feed") when they say nothing usefull.. and beat the hell out of them with the truth when they make ignorant unsubstantiated professions of shite.

k.. break time..

What I'm reading - right now, I'm reading "Hatchet" with my 12 year old son. It's an adventure story about a 13 year old that is on a single engine plane headed to see his father when the pilot has a heart attack and the plane goes down in a lake in the Canadian wilderness - and all he has to help him survive is a hatchet. It's really a cool book.

I'm also doing the usual reading in blogs and newsites, plus Science News and National Geographic, plus lots of gardening articles, plus a collection of short stories called "Devils and Demons". Plus there's the every day reading in order to teach - Civics, Science, Algebra, Language Arts - plus the ethics and logic I try to fit in between the lines. Unfortunately I don't have time to focus on novels until summer vacation.

My brain hurts.

What I'm thinking - I'm thinking how cool it is to be able to spend some school days, especially cool rainy days like today, just reading together with my son - and how much I'm going to miss it when we're done with homeschool and he goes to ninth grade academy next year. I'm thinking I wouldn't trade this time I've had with him for anything.

What do I want to know? I want to know there's an end in sight to this madness and chaos that has descended upon my country these past few years. I want to know there is a reason for hope, and that someday soon it'll be over and the troops will be coming home. I want to know that the country I love so dearly can recover from all that has torn it apart and been heaped upon it by those who don't seem to love my country at all.

And I want to know how, when my son turns 18 and the powers that be say it is time for this gentle, caring, creative spirit to learn to kill...I want to know how to save him.

If they take my son, I can't live here anymore. It won't be my country anymore.

I won't sacrifice him for greed. He is my heart and soul - no one can live without their heart and soul.

And no one should ever be asked to.

Savantster #54 - ever considered building your own telescope?

We have a 6" reflector my husband built from a concrete form tube (from Home Depot I think), and from mirrors and eyepieces bought on ebay. He covered the tube with fiberglass resin (like you put on fiberglass cloth, but without using cloth). Of course he had to buy the tripod and everything too, but with shopping around for a couple years, he's got less than $150 in the telescope itself, maybe even in telescope AND tripod (and you can build a mount, if you go with a Dobsonian mount, for even cheaper - look on the web for plans for a Dobsonian reflector)

He's been scrounging parts to build a 10" reflector too, I can't wait - with just the 6" we've been able to see Jupiter and even a few of the rings of Saturn!

.

From Michael Moore: Yucca Mountain, Nevada

Again, from Michael Moore:

Dear Mr. Moore, I am one of the Denver Three. We were forcibly removed from President Bush's "town-hall" meeting in Denver because of a bumper sticker on my friends' car that reads No More Blood For Oil. We did nothing wrong, we said nothing wrong and we had legally obtained tickets from our Congressman.

This is happening in city after city, all because Bush knows that his plan to privitize social security is unpopular and won't withstand scrutiny. In Fargo, 42 people were blacklisted because they were members of Democracy for America. Some of them had also written a letter to the editor of their paper, which also put them on "the list".

The same day as the Denver incident, a young man, Steve Gerner was not allowed in because he was wearing a t-shirt with the AZ. Young Democrats logo on it.

On Monday we are sending a letter to Congress asking for an investigation. We have signatures from a few congresspeople as well as senators. I understand that in order to get a hearing, there must be a vote. We would like to urge every American citizen to write a letter or call their congresspeople. Demand that our First Amendment Rights be protected and that the misuse of taxpayer funds be invesetigated.

We are three ordinary citizens that did nothing wrong. We know that people listen to you and if you can help us in any way to amplify our voices, we would be grateful.

Thanks,
Karen Bauer
The Denver Three Rocky Mountain News Editorial
WRITE THE HOUSE WRITE A LETTER TO YOUR LOCAL NEWSPAPER WRITE THE SENATE

Grind your own mirror for your reflector telescope .Its laborious but incredibly rewarding once its been "mirrored”. I made a 160millimeter Newtonian Telescope and built a mount that will one day connect to motor drives for tracking and hopefully a CCD camera (one day).The math are available on the net and it requires very little equipment to hand make the mirror and its amazing to think it was invented by Newton in the 1600’s.
Similar to your husband I used PVC drain pipe for the tube of the telescope.

Humans have had intelligence for countless millenniums .We just keep getting hijacked on our way to happiness and our true potential by self-appointed despots .
I hope its “two steps forward and only one step backwards”.

Re mine #58

WRITE THE HOUSE

WRITE THE SENATE

WRITE A LETTER TO YOUR LOCAL NEWSPAPER

Sorry, trying again: Yucca Mountain, Nevada

Kestrel #42, 55

Friends of mine asked what the passport deal was about when we heard it on the radio. While most of them immediately thought of terrorism security, my mind immediately thought of draft evasion. Shows you where my focus is lately and yours too. Your post is the only one that I've seen anywhere that links this new law with the draft.

Heart and soul.....what can I say except that I feel the same. I have a nagging sense of dread and darkness. I can handle everything else these #!?&s can throw at us, but the thought of a draft makes me feel uneasy to say the least.

On the other hand, I believe Bushco has suffered some significant defeats lately, and I'm starting to get a sense that Americans in general may be beginning to wake up and come to their senses. Time will tell.

Dear all -

I'm making a resolution - to type everything I post on WordPad before copying and sending. Because careless wording causes trouble. And I admire and respect EVERY regular poster I have gotten to "know" on this blog. And I hate fuzzy expression, which I have been guilty of and which, I suspect, has led to this misunderstanding. I said, "We must erect a wall of self-trust, because this is our weakest bastion. Love. That is STRONG. A huge movement can be built upon it. And it cannot be discredited, either morally or practically."

What I MEANT was: We must erect a FOUNDATION of self-trust (of self-esteem), so that we do not feel a constant need to explain for or apologize for our moral and political stances.

You see - I should have typed it out and edited before posting, and Teresa wouldn't have barked at me and I wouldn't have barked back, etc., etc., etc.
Winter - the thread on my screen was misaligned, the end-of-line words out of sight. That's all I was referring to there.

Don't we all have a common soul-thread, a commonality of consciousness? I think we do.
*****************
I am at present reading an "Art History Mystery," and every literate source of information I can find on the Web. The fiction is my end-of-day sedative and should not be construed as frivolousness.
*****************
I am thinking that every rational human being in the world right now is very tired and very worried.
*****************
I am asking whether the human race can resolve its moral and practical dilemma in time to save itself and the greatest, most fantastic miracle of the universe: life and the phenomenon of conscious thought.

Peg, you sweet thing...

I loved your original trust statement.

You've got the weight of the world on you. Don't worry about the human race. It will probably survive quite well. Remember the flu epidemic of 1918? That was almost the end. And here we are, sufficiently populated , alive, and kicking. It would take a force more powerful than mankind to accomplish its destruction.

Kes and MMIIXX..

I've been looking into building my own scope for a while.. Planning on making either an SCT or MCT (not fully clear on the differences yet, but). I know those are much harder mirrors to grind, but I like the compact space (and behind the device viewing). That's also based on my wanting a 10" for 'normal' viewing.. that's what I was thinking of buying.. the Meade LX200 GPS-SMT 10" (used with UHTC coatings), for now.. looking for the new RX400 10" down the road (or bigger if I can find a nice location for an observatory). If I get around to building my own, I want to do it once I find a place to have my own permanant mounting and would make a 16" (or slightly larger) on a Dob most likely.. I've been thinking of making a 6" newtonian instead of getting the Meade, but all those thoughts are now on hold in any event..

Part of looking to buy one is to avoid the potential mess and errors of making my own (even though it would be fun in any event) and I can get much more appiture "complete" for astrophotography in much less time if I buy it.

Sopeaking of "buying".. just watched "The Corperation".. gets into a lot of info about how they are out of reach of most governments now since they are international..and how they like oppresive governments for cheap labor and being able to push schemes on people. It's a frightful story by the time it's all said and done. There were 2 very interesting things I came to understand from it. 1) companies are considered "people" based on court rulings shortly after the 14th Amendment was passed to free the slaves. Some lawyer posed that companies should be protected as well, and not deprived of property. Basically, that was the start of the end.. 2) When you do the "psychological profile" of Coperations, they fall into the realm of PPD (psychopath personality disorder). Their complete lack of regard for anything but profits with their reckless disregard for everything else would make them "psychotic" if they were "humans".. I think it's time to bring these people to court in terms of 'psychosis' and since you can't put them "in a sanitarium", disolve them. I also found out that based on the "old way" of corperations being "allowed" to function based on charters with the State, that charter CAN be removed -by- the state and the company disolved. So, the solution is simple.. convince Attorney Generals (and other law/judicial people) to revoke the charters, disovle bad companies, and be done with it! (I know, I know.. easier said than done). A bunch of lawyers tried to get Unicol pulled apart in California.. the Att. Gen. didn't do it, but admitted he -could-. I guess it's time to get some progressive Att. Gen.s voted in (or is that an appointed position?)

Teresa, you wonderful friend -

Yup. We've got to trust each other. But I think we all, also, have to take on the weight of the world. Because, if we don't, a feather could sway the balance.

And (forgive me for heresy) I think an epidemic would be a blessing. Not only would it "thin the ranks," thus easing population pressure, but it would concentrate attention upon important matters like equity and the basic human right to a proportional share of available resources.

We're not (forgive me again) "sufficiently populated;" we are populated beyond the earth's guarantee of sufficiency.

Peg... Give it to me , girl!

Just the kind of people I love.... star gazers. The kind that look up.

Savanster #66,

That might not be so far fetched. It looks like there is a coming civil war between the federal government and the states. The states could be reasserting their power which will change the landscape.

Also, the corporations will be collapsing from a sort of cancerous growth that has gotten out of control and can't be maintained. We are already seeing that in the airline industries.

Savantster
Buying a Telescope is way faster without a doubt , I'm just a die-hard tool user .

Hi All!

I'm currently (re)reading Fierce Invalids Home From Hot Climates, by Tom Robbins, mainly for the exhilaration that is in it, as I've been feeling low in that department for some time, in part due to the tons of depressing reading I've been doing in my efforts to stay informed.
I was just this minute thinking about what a grand bunch of sentient, sensitive, curious folks has gathered here in Bradville, and feeling blessed to be able to partake of the kindly shared experience.
I'd like to know when this country's absurd and dangerous fixation with mind-altering substances will finally disappear. It seems the pharmaceutical behemoths are the main obstacle. Here's an example of why:
I don't need no red for a good night in bed,
I don't need no Prozac to grin through the day.
Don't need no Viagra for a trip to Niagara,
Just let me step out and spark up a jay!

I CAN'T BELIEVE IT CZARAGORN! SYNCHRONICITY!

I just logged on to post this:

Berlin has just legalized cannabis.

Stargazers.......

When I was a kid (still am at heart), I could stare for hours into the night sky in wonder at the sheer size and depth of it all. One thought that always left me in awe......if the universe is expanding, then what is it expanding into, or, at the time of the big bang, what was the envirnment that the explosion was set to go off in? That question still amazes me.

I've been fortunate to have kids with curious minds like mine. I remember a few years back when the persied ? meteor shower was exceptionally full and vivid, having awakened the kids at about two a.m., and feeling so proud and in love with them as I stood there with them, wrapped in a blanket watching this magnificent display unfold, and seeing the wonder in their eyes. Awesome

Gotta go again,
Peace

Leonids maybe

Teresa,

Germany, yeah, and most all of northern and central Europe are home to tolerant, liberal societies. Of course there are warts (racism, e,g,), but on the whole people have no problem with citizens growing and ingesting whatever sorts of herbs they choose to grow in their own gardens.
And it's not just the pharmaceutical industry in the US that are in favor of the status quo:
I don't need no whiskey to get feeling frisky,
I don't need no cocaine to go out and play,
Don't need no health warning first thing every morning,
Just let me step out and spark up a jay!

What a place we find ourselves in

How beautiful.

That was in reference to the stars.

It's practically legal in Colorado. Decriminalized. You can smoke on the streets and in the alleys. They don't mind. And you can have up to an ounce.

Supersoling #71 - We watch the Perseids (around Aug-Sept) and Leonids (Oct-Nov) every year possible - my son is old enough now to set his alarm and come wake me up if I sleep through mine.

I wonder if the one you're referring to is the Leonid meteor storm of two-three years back.

There we were, about four o'clock in the morning on an unseasonably cold morning (for Tennessee, anyway *s*), laying in lawn chairs in heavy coats and wrapped in blankets. I live out in the sticks, no ambient light, and the night sky was AMAZING! It was one hell of a fireworks display, have not seen anything like it before or since!

#62 - I've not seen any written connection to passports and the draft either, but it was the very first thing I thought about. I remember you're in the same boat, but a few years ahead of us. Hang in there, we're gonna fight this - you might contact the Quakers, Unitarians, and the local chapter of Veterans for Peace if you want to make sure you're up to date on information on current regs regarding c.o. - I'm not sure what's changed since the last draft, but they'd know.

Check out these links. The first article is one I read yesterday, and it makes me nauseous. We have to warn our children, to make sure our high schoolers know they don't have to take the test, and to make other parents aware they can opt out of the "military" part of the NCLB (I've found most parents don't even know that part is in there!)

They're Talking Up Arms

Military's Test at High Schools Brings a Salvo of Concerns

Counter-recruiters' shadowing the military

And, for something in the realm of "You've got to be f**kin KIDDIN ME!!" -

Principal bans 'anti-military,' 'anti-American' materials

KestrelBrighteyes #53

... way cool about your son ... I like those essences of me that are child-like ... like when we can still see the stars move ...

I had several Van Gogh books, but I just got that one and it is the equivalent of the website (has all his work) ... only it is easier to thumb thru the book and work up a frenzy of incredulous jubilation (mysterious joy) ... and next thing you know I have paint in my eyebrows and some on the canvas ...

Savantster #54

You know you are not alone. Don't let the dark side of the force get too deep. We can't avoid some of it, but we can avoid the most of it ...

And we are all in it together and we know there are many other folk like you on this planet that want all the madness to go away ... and work in that direction.

Brad has gone off to work furiously in that direction in the political arena. It is encouraging to see that when I get tired for awhile someone else picks up the ball and runs with it.

My generation ... "baby boomers" ... are beginning to fade from the scene, and our children and grandchildren are stepping up to the plate.

My active energies are turning into hope as I see myself fading from the scene ... but hope is good medicine too.

COMMENT #38 [link]
...Da Wookie said on 4/6/2005 @ 12:01pm PT...

"The beginning of a rift?
We can only hope! "

Not that surprising. DeLay is desperately grabbing for issues that will help develop a smokescreen for his crooked fanny - a diversion. Hope it doesn't work. As I've said before: Tom DeLay cares about Terry Schaivo? Fat chance.

Hi everyone!

Just grabbed a minute to write a quick note and tell you all how much I miss talking with you every day and how much I love you all.

Campaign's in full swing. I'm busy setting things up and training volunteers. It's gonna be a long one; our writ doesn't get dropped until April 19 and then 28 days of campaigning. We started early because it's very important to us to defeat the Liberals; they have caused so much damage to all of our rural communities (one of which I live in), and our social service safety net. We seem to be coming in to more and more of an "American" (no offense to anyone here) system. Lots more poverty, fewer jobs that pay enough to support a family (or even just oneself) more homelessness, more crime, inferior education, health, infrastructure. So much drug and alcohol addiction. So many unhappy people. Kinda like the rich get richer and the rest of us get lost. Course now they're shovelling money off the back of the truck and (sigh) voters have such short memories. We'll just have to keep reminding them.

I agree with Kes on trolls. There are a lot of people who "lurk" here and don't participate and we need to address what trolls say so the lurkers don't think that by our silence they are right. Dissent is always good; differing opinions are good; discussions are good and presenting informed arguments to counter garbage statements is good. And was it Super(?) who said that once it degenerates into namecalling, you've already won? How right that is. Any intelligent person knows that. So, feed the trolls, but only if it's a worthwhile discussion that actually includes facts that can be backed up.

Love ya. Talk to you soon.

Dredd #80:

I know the feeling of hopelessness. It seems like the well-organized neocon take-over of the media and vote is so big, that it can't be brought down. Everyone's going to work and watching TV like it's not affecting them. I read this board for solace. It's the only place I find hope, Because I've found people who are living life with their eyes open.

My 68-year-old sister was a life-long Republican, and now she's completely gone the other way, because she sees what this neocon movement is doing to the future of this country. She's the one who calls this bunch "The Beelzebush Conspiracy". I'm proud of her. For someone that age, so set in her ways, to see this for what it is, is heartening. I hope for millions more.

Cheryl #82 Hey gal, good to hear from the north country!

I sincerely hope the election there goes well for you folk.

Hey, what was the issue that caused the GI who wanted to defect to Canada to be denied? Is it over or is there an appeal?

Bob Bilse #83

Good for your sister and good for you for providing an environment where she could do that without you harassing her for so doing.

Many are in denial and so turned off they do not know where to turn.

Don't know about blogs that can offer moral, emotional, and political support.

Don't know in part because of the neocon propaganda machines that are cranked up to the max these days.

Kestrel #78 - Oh, it makes me so angry - why don't those %$#&* that love war so much, just go get their boots on and go shoot at each other, and leave the young people alone! They are just a bunch of ignorant, crazy lunatics, and the world could do very well without them. Grrrr......

When I think that the world isn't fair or just (which is quite a lot these days), I find this helps.

A little out of date maybe, but it holds up well and reminds me that despondency is not an option if we wish to hand a better world to our children and grandchildren.

The cracks are appearing in the Neocon lie machine, let's grab a hammer and chisel each and widen them. When we shine the light into the dark places, we can see DeLay and all the others scuttle like the cockroaches that they are.

George Lakoff says the the truth won't set us free - I don't know about that (I am but a humble engineer, not a world renowned linguist), but I do know that lies will imprison us if we let them go unchallenged. We give up and they win, we stay angry and vocal and we win.

Keep the faith siblings.

BTW, re #69

CZARAGORN, an old mate of mine has a t-shirt which reads:

"Fight organised crime - grow your own!"

Not only is it legal in the Netherlands, they have a Cannabis cup every year to see who grows the best.

I thought every place in the states went a bit mental about dope and treated it like a major crime, it's nice to hear about some states being vaguely sensible about it.

You people rock.

Well, on "dope"..

I think there are 2 major reasons it's illegal in most of the US. First would be because you can grow your own pretty easily.. if you can easily make your own supply with minimal work, why would you buy it? And if you aren't gonna buy it, competitors are gonna try to oppose it. And that's just what we have. I'd bet one of the larger opponents to pot are Alchohol and maybe Tobacco. They don't want you growing your own entertainment/stress-relief and not buy theirs. Second.. something that is less "provable".. I get the disctinct feeling that smoking pot (in a responsible context) has the ability to "open your eyes" and cause you to be more compassionate (in the real definition of the term, not the Repugnecon light) in general.. There's a reason hippies say "make love, not war". If the society in general had a release of stress that had minimal (if any) bad effects, could get it readily and cheaply (or free) and it made them actually -care- about being "sociable" and distracted them from being "agitated and self-serving", our system would fall apart (that is, the currupt slime in office and the rich duche-bags that pay them would lose control).

Interesting comment about Colorado given that it's one of the most conservative states in the U.S.. I'm gonna have to look up the law on that.. Thanks Teresa!

I guess I shouldn't read..

Wolf guarding the hen house

Two nice items with regard to what's going on in the House Energy and Commerce Committee..

"Lawmakers with automakers in their districts led the fight to defeat Waxman's proposal, arguing it was backdoor way to require U.S. mini-vans, sport utility vehicles and pick-up trucks to improve their fuel efficiency."

Yeah.. saving people money at the pumps, lowering one of the biggest uses of oil, and helping the environment.. not what voters want, right? at least, not what campaign contributors want..

"The committee's chairman, Republican Joe Barton of Texas"

Ahh.. that helps explain a lot too.. Wonder what they'll eat once the hens they are guarding are all dead..

Prohibition didn’t work for alcohol and it doesn’t work for pot. My limited understanding is that when George Washington was president if you were a farmer you had to have a certain percentage of your land cultivated with cannabis as TAX .It was and is one of the best natural fibres for cloth, paper and rope etc. but the cotton industry lobbied the government to have it banned and outlawed.
Like Prohibition the criminals and their financial backers are the ones making the money and the financial backers seem to be the ones in control of the laws. Look at the “crack” problem and the Iran-contra /Olie North tie in.
There is a demand for a low risk recreational drug today for people who don’t like the effects of alcohol (which is a drug ,no more no less) but like you say if the customer can grow their own “where’s the profit”.
It’s a shame Jesus didn’t have a joint at the last supper instead of wine ,it may have been a more peaceful planet by now.

Savantster #89

Colorado is (was) conservative, but Boulder and Denver are wildly liberal. Very, very futuristic. Aspen, Durango, Telluride, Fort Collins, and many other towns, too. There are a lot of people off the grid and living on alternative energy.

The whole demographic is changing and this year for the first time in 50 years, we have an entire Democratic state legislature and we are ecstatic.
Plus Democratic Congressmen.

The law here states that there is a $100 dollar fine for possessing up to one ounce, but it is not enforced. This law has been on the books for years.

I am pretty sure that it will be legalized after this neocon thingy is over as the only way out of our economic crisis. Hemp is the way, and Europe is already doing it.

So hang in there.

Mmiixx #91

"when George Washington was president if you were a farmer you had to have a certain percentage of your land cultivated with cannabis as TAX .It was and is one of the best natural fibres for cloth, paper and rope etc. but the cotton industry lobbied the government to have it banned and outlawed."

Fascinating. Thanks.

Teresa, you in CO? I'm in the Springs

Yes MMIIXX.. very cool.. gonna have to dig info up on that.. Cotton seems an odd advesary to pot at first glance, until you put it in context of hemp.. verra verra nice..

I've never gotten why pot, with less negative effects to body and mind than alchohol, is/was illegal all over the country. This seems a reasonable and plausable possiblilty, and helps argue the point that business is NOT good for the public and needs to be reigned in.

And here I thought it was because it helped you see clearly if you smoked enough

Holy Jesus, Savanster! Ever get up to Denver?

Things are cooking here, and you might be interested in some things that are coming down soon.

Perhaps the Good Lord will reward us with legalization for having suffered this terrible siege.

Teresa
"Perhaps the Good Lord will reward us with legalization for having suffered this terrible siege."

I'm an atheist so my spin on your line would be "why has the Good Lord made us suffer this terrible siege"

(I know , but it is an open thread)

As I watched the Bush tribe paying tribute to the Pope on TV I though If there is in fact a god "these assholes are about to be struck by lighting" but alas no lighting.........sometime you just want to be wrong

lightNing

Well, Mmiixx,

I think this siege is for the purpose of increasing our awareness, bringing the collective together, and creating a strong enough desire for all of us to take responsibility and participate in creating a good government, something we have not had in a long time.

I have never felt victimized, because it is not my nature. If something is wrong, I try to understand how it got that way, and then I try to come up with a solution.

I always have believed that the quality of my life is a projection of myself.

That leaders are not thrust upon people but are created out of the germ plasm, if you will, of the whole society. And that is where the fix is located. Within all of us.

Read On

This open thread has been nice but let's get to business. posting #32 brought up some good points about the exit polls and the like from 2004. What can we do to bring more attention to the fact that we don't have transparent elections in the United States? We should focus our efforts on getting a few things taken care of. The way I see it, we won't change anything if we let them keep hiding the vote.

This open thread has been nice because it is, well.............open. Which means that anyone can post about any subject that doesn't necesarilly have to do with "business, or any one persons idea of what business should be discussed on it. Bejammin075 #32 did the same thing, to tell all posters what he decided was the purpose of the open thread.

There are up to date and current posts regarding exit polls on this thread.

Or, may be you could say:
"I've enjoyed this open thread so far. I think exit polls, and the fact that we don't have transparent elections are one of the biggest problems we face. Do you folks have any ideas on how we can change this?" Instead of, "lets get down to business", as if every other post on this thread is somehow trivial.

Besides, I feel like taking a much needed break and having a little fun, while Dumbutt is preoccupied.

Anybody taking bets on the next Pope being American.
Can you imagine Bush meeting in the Vatican last night with the 11 American Cardinals(?) .
"Now give me an "A" now give me an "M" ..............."
He was a (girly-man) cheerleader afterall

re:let's get to business
John J what election was it you wanted to "fix"

One news report claimed that the Sh'iites actually received 56 percent of the vote, but such an outcome couldn't be allowed for fear of a theocracy forming. This reminds us of the statement made months ago by Secretary Rumsfeld when asked about a Shi'ite theocracy emerging from a majority democratic vote, and he assured us that would not happen. Democracy, we know, is messy and needs tidying up a bit when we don't like the results.

http://www.house.gov/paul/
http://michaelmoore.com/words/index.php?id=2136

I heard a Catholic prelate on DemocracyNow! say that America would never be considered because the country already controls so many aspects of world geopolitics.

MMIIXX #105

I read that no Americans are being considered. I think the world at large has had all they can take of America right now, but I'm sure if Bush could find a way to get one appointed, he'd do it.

Did anyone see the picture of Bush and his delegation praying at the body of the Pope? Did you get a load of the look on Rice's face as she glared around the room in the way that only she can? She was pissed that Laura got to be next to George instead of her. Didn't she slip up once and call Bush her husband?

Seriously though, every time Bush leaves the country, I feel ashamed that he is the person who represents us to the world. He has defiled our face and good standing, and made us hated and despised. We have to make him pay for this and every other crime he has committed, and we will. It's just a matter of time and I think all their fuck ups lately have possibly shortened our wait.

Didn't she slip up once and call Bush her husband? YES
Watch her eyes when Bush is in the room ......smitten?

Supersoling my wife and my 13 year son went to Europe last June for two month to stay with several of our exchange students families in switzerland,germany etc. They were constantly mistaken for Americans until they spoke or showed their passports at which time they would receive an apology "sorry I though you were American" then the quality of service etc . would noticeably improve .

I also hear that only a very small percentage of American have passports and have actually "seen" the rest of the world (being in the army doesn't count).

Super -

Boy, I'm with you there! How humiliating having those mugs as the "face of America."

I haven't seen this mentioned here, but its certainly ominous and sickening, like so much else. Felix Rodriquez, the operator who helped coordinate the ambush and murder of Che Guevara, says that "we" are, in fact, gearing up to take out Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. So much for popular, democratic governments and the rabble who support them (like workers and ordinary folks). Move over, Venezuelans. You may be deluding yourselves that it's your country, but the oil barons have other ideas.

Bush was praying hard, and Condi was looking around - cause they are scared they won't make it out of Italy in one piece. They SHOULD BE SCARED after all the death and destruction they have created. If they believe "What goes 'round comes 'round", they will be scared for the rest of their lives. It won't end in 2008.

Re my #110 -

One of the most indelible memories I have of the '70s is the drive into Caracas from the coast. It was horrifying and enlightening, and I hold it like a snapshot, never to be erased.

Mile upon mile of steep, denuded, muddy slopes COVERED with cardboard, tin and tarpaper "shelters," an unthinkable hell-hole without end, where thousands upon thousands lived out their entire lives.

Chavez has revived hope of life for this drastically exploited country. He is arming his loyalists in the faith that something like guerilla action can save the country from US occupation. No one would bomb civilians, right? They might be able to win a ground war, right?

Wrong. Columbia has cynically allied itself with Bushco (to get away with its drug monopoly, no doubt); and coastal, marginal and oil-endowed Venezuela is in the sites of the most greedy, rapacious, immoral force in the history of the planet Earth.

Bush got a coded message from OBL , it read "370HSSV 0773H" Bush was stumped and called in the CIA who told him they could crack it standing on their head.

Open thread isn't it?

re # 113:

707

note to the upside-down-impaired:
that's "LOL" standing on my head.

Speaking of fear...

This made the rounds again on my "RRLH&F" list this morning.

George W. Bush, the Frightened Man

'splains a lot. It also re-energizes me with hope.

Hey y'all, we're gonna win this, we really are. We're going to take our country back.

Their house might look strong, but if you'll look closer you'll see it's made of cards, and these days, for every new one they add, we're pulling two out - and there's a strong wind blowing....

"The wind of change
Blows straight into the face of time
Like a stormwind that will ring the freedom bell
For peace of mind...."

(Scorpions, "Wind of Change")

I noticed that Jeff Gannon is still pushing illicit relationships and is still being criticized for it (link here).

Hey Dredd #84!
They said he had not shown a well-founded fear of persecution if he returned to the US. Whatever that means!!! Like, they don't know how he will be treated?

Sorry, I sent too soon. And he's appealing.

Winter-
Any chance you could start a NEW open thread in the next few days. I've been pretty busy this week and didn't get into this one until it was starting to fizzle out. There is an issue I want to post that I communicated with Brad about in an e-mail before he left and I'd like to post it but I want to post it on an open thread that is new or still has some legs. If you want to know more, you can e-mail me.

Thanks,
Steve

re: #119: Sure, Steve. Stay tuned.

I read that Chavez has concerns that U.S. wants him dead due to large oil reserves....stated if he died U.S. would not get any oil from Venezuala. Looks bad for the way we do business. Also, I'm very paranoid..have been urging on many many blogs for you guys not to pay taxes..probably shouldn't have done it...just don't think with no vote and repubs fighting any chance of dems. getting a vote..why pay taxes..3 trillion "lost" from DOD...We are losing about a trillion a year from the pentagon since Bush got in office. I don't understand why any dem. would pay....I'm not computer literate...can't use mozilla anymore ..have to use explorer..virus or something. That's what I'm paranoid about. I am not a troll..just aged.

Oh Molly,

We are all aged, and very few of us are trolls! More power to you...