Great work. By all accounts, this is still a developing story. Saddly, we cannot trust our own law enforcement agencies. That appears to be true at all levels of the goverment. The truth in the end will come out. This country was not founded on a lie but the truth. I am positive that someone will speak up for Mr. Lemme so that his family can have closure. I know that I would want that for myself. God's speed to you Brad.

Keep at it, honey. People are being hurt and they need justice. Thank you.

great reporting, brad. my only question is, where does it go from here? it seems like all the people who now need to start answering some tough questions can easily continue to stonewall, especially when the story is for most part being investigated by a blogger (i.e. you).

maybe it's time to get "60 minutes" involved. i know they are "mainstream media" and as such, can be pretty whimpy, but i also know they tend to love these kind of stories.

i realize the tendency of bloggers to want to go it alone and protect their turf --- don't blame you there one bit. still, it may be time to at least talk to some big media (with big money), and see if they'd be willing to team up with you on this.

just my opinion.

the other option is to get a democratic senator involved. somebody with some clout --- and money --- has got to start getting to the bottom of these unanswered questions. that, to me, is the bottom line at this point.

Somebody has to explain how Lemme checked out of the motel at 6:54 a.m. on 6/30/03, signed a "suicide" note at 8:10 a.m. (no date given), then got back into the same motel in time to be found dead on 7/1/03, without checking back in.

Did he occupy the same room the second time? The check-out clerk should be shown a photo of Lemme and asked, "Is this the man who checked out at 6:54 on 6/30?" The signature on the slip does seem to match the note.

It sure looks as if Lemme's second visit to the motel came after he was dead. One possibility to explain the handwriting on the note is that he had been told, "Write this note or we'll kill your wife and daughter, too." If Lemme had realized he was dealing with desperate men, that would have been a way to protect them, even in death.

I agree completely with #3, you need some help with money and a big name media to push through the sludge you are sure to encounter. If you have that kind of help, perhaps the police will be more apt to really solve the case, even if they are pressured by outside influences, such as Feeney, Yang, etc. You're doing a super job Brad!

People depressed enough to kill themselves, don't

go to work early, or get excited about a case.

A person planning suicide is not involved in the

future, because they feel like there is no future.

#3,#5

It is my current understanding that this is the district of Cynthia McKinney ... or at least she is from Georgia and may be able to help.

Anyone from georgia out there who wants to contact her?

From what I have read on this site in the last several months, it seems to me that Brad has been trying to get big media interested in this case for a long time. So there's no need to be concerned about "a blogger trying to protect his turf." The thing to be concerned about, as far as I can tell, is that no big media source has enough courage to go where Brad is willing to go.

I would be surprised if any high-profile politician has enough courage either. But then again, if we make enough noise, we might be able to embolden some of them. It's worked once or twice before.... for that reason, I think we should all work as hard as possible to attract some serious attention to this story. Each in his or her own way, of course.

Got any pajamas? Got any beer? Ready, set, go!

Brad, you're doing us all proud. Please keep up the good work, and watch your back. And if you need a good proofer (the past tense of "to lead" is "led" not "lead" for example) I'll be happy to proof anything you feel might need proofing, which along with writing and translating is what I do for a living, gratis, just to get the first gander at the great stuff you dig up! Until such time, bra...

Here is a link to Shannon Floyd the new instructor at Valdosta College.

Nana #6

Very good point.

great story brad. i assume you have found this already, but didn't see it in the story or comments. shannon floyd is at valdosta technical college as a law enforcement instructor. the announcement can be found here (half-way down the page): www.valdostatech.edu/news/index.asp

Be careful Brad. These people hurt people.

It is my understanding that suicide is a selfish act by a severely depressed (hopeless) person and is often intended to hurt others. It is also my understanding that self-mutilation is a form of blaming and punishing one's self.

If true, and I cannot swear that it is, the suicide note does not seem to fit with the self-punishment style of death.

To start with, I'd bring in a handwriting expert on the signature thing, and submit samples of Lemme's handwriting to be compared with both the note and the signature. Yes, he might have written the note under duress and to protect his family. But, look at the way the word "family" is underlined - I can't say why, it just feels odd for some reason. Besides the underline, doesn't it seem he'd say something personal to his wife and daughter in the note? Just a hunch, and maybe I'm out in left field, but...

The problem is, if there are people in power keeping the case from being investigated, it would be hard to get anything done without hiring a private independent investigator, and they cost big bucks.

Unfortunately, that part of the Clint Curtis/Tom Feeney story may have to be investigated after the fact, meaning after all the other dominoes fall. Going at it from the other end may be the only way to solve the crime once and for all. With the photos on the 'net, at least it'll be harder to destroy that particular evidence.

Too bad Soros doesn't have a bone to pick with Feeney, that kinda financial backing could make a dent. Still, Feeney is bound to have made some enemies over the time of his career, maybe some of them will come forward before all is said and done. BTW, just out of curiosity, he's up for election again in 2006 isen't he? Who's running against him, any idea yet?

Good job Brad. Take care of yourself, you're bound to be making some bad people nervous.

Thank you for this valuable service you do by not letting this subject just go. We need to know the truth, and it has not yet been found. Keep going!

Yes, you've done a great job, but you're never going to get anyone in a position of power to touch this - the people behind it are more powerful and more rich and are very very interested in keeping the status quo. You can't look at the past decade in this country and not see the increase in a blatant pattern of lies, deception and murder by those in power - and those with lesser power often don't have the will to risk their own meal ticket- and those who do, the real truth seekers who still believe that we have a chance to change anything end up dead. If any democratic politician cared about the truth, the election would have been contested and the burden of proof placed on the GOP - which, we all know, never came close to happening.

Hey this is some kinda work Brad!! You ROCK...
Question...anyone know what happened to Lemme's work, his files and information that he said had linked all this Curtis info to the top? Is the wife in possession of his work, or did it evaporate into thin air??

I put NOTHING past the Bush regime...i don't doubt murder could be involved in regards to any power plays by Bush and Co. No doubts whatsoever...

You might also have a hard time getting to Shannon Floyd now - sounds like she may have already been warned not to speak with you or anyone else about the case.

Any chance of getting the GBI involved? I've found state agencies are more willing to help in some cases than local agencies, at least here in Tennessee. Of course, that may not hold true for someone in a position in the US House of Representives.

TO ALL INVESTIGATORS,
CONSIDER CREATEING A SUICIDE PASSWORD TO GIVE TO YOUR LAWYER.
Example,
I …………………BEING OF SOUND MIND AND BODY ON THIS DAY ………………… PROMISED TO INCLUDE THE FOLLOWING “SUICIDE PASSWORD” IN ANY AND ALL “SUICIDE NOTES OR MESSAGES” LEFT BY ME IN THE EVENT OF A SELF-INFLICTED INJURY OR DEATH.
I FURTHER STATE THAT IN THE AVENT OF MY DEATH BY ANY MEANS, BE TREATED AS SUSPIOUS AND AN AUTOPSY SHOULD BY PROFORMED IF THE ABOVE “SUICIDE PASSWORD” (OR PHRASE) IS NOT INCLUDED IN ANY ALLEGED “SUICIDE NOTE” ACCREDITED TO ME ON MY DEMISE.
SIGNED ……………..
WITNESSED …………………

I'm not a lawyer but surely something like this could let family and friends know that their loved one chose their course of action and their death was not the result of "external influence or pressure".
P.S. Was the vehicle impounded as there may be evidence relating to the possible tranport of Mr. Lemme (across a state line)?

:rolleyes:Just another pathetic liberal who couldn't deal with the fact that President Bush won the election fair and square.

The method used is highly unusual in males. The most prevalent method is gunshot, with hanging coming in after that. Slashing like that is quite rare.

And as the blood level got low wouldn't hallucination and self preservation mentality take over in a dream or semi-conscious or weakened mental state leading to movement from ... or within the bathtub in a primitive protective automatic system ... kinda like knee jerk.

He looked docile like no movement of any significance had taken place. That is strange.

A Freedom of Information Act request to the FDOT and the Valdosta Police might lead to the person in the FDOT who was talked to.

Also, the family should have credit card billing to show the dates the credit card company received the billing on checkin and checkout ...

There are some strange circumstances here and at the very least some inadequate investigation, but I'm not completely convinced of the receipts pointing to anything but wonky equipment. The price is the same which would inicate that check-in and checkout were the same day, not 3 days apart.

But Dredd, maybe he was "in touch" with his feminine side and that's why he chose the method of suicide that he did. He looked "docile" because he was probably reconciled to his death which is very common in suicidal people.

Good job Brad.

We're all behind you 100% here!

I think it may be time to notify Michael Moore (so we get everything on tape) and then show it in movie theaters across the country.

Heaven forbid the Mainstream Media should ever do anything about this.

Make it big Brad... that's the only way to keep the ball rolling, especially when the evil people think you are getting too close.

Like I said, though, we are all with you here.

MrBlueSky

Wonderful, selfless work, Brad. We're proud of you.

I'm glad that you are becoming more visible, with media interviews and all, because the more people that know about you and what you are doing, the safer you are. Poor Lemme wasn't a public figure - yet.

This is a headline link on Raw Story.

There is an incredible number of political murders going on starting with my friend an d honest to a fault, Sen Paul Wellstone.This was no accident.Just like John Kennedy Jr. and Mel Carnahan.Identical circumstances.We now have the greatest criminal organization ever running this country. Truth is the only possible way to save all of our butts.The NWO will spare no one that stands in it's way. The Zionist Jews now control everything in this country. The entire media,the entire government,the banking system. This may have to come to fghting fire with fire with millions of armed citizens.This is he one thing they fear most. GW Bush once said to departed reporter Sarah McClendon."If the people ever find out what we are doing, they will chase us down the street and lynch us.The emporer of Japan once commented I fear we have awakened a sleeping giant. WW 2. Lets wake up America. It doesn't have have to go this way.

Brad, Thank you for having the courage to report this stuff. I was blogging yesterday and a read a blog about Hunter S. and allegdly he told a friend that he was working on a big story about 911 and had some evidence that the World Trade Center was also bombed in that there were explosives in the building . He also said to the friend that he was affraid he would be "suicided" Brad check Sander Hicks interview with Daniel Hopsicker. Didnt't the first person to write about W's drug habit commit suicide.

It's not uncommon for chain motels to run the check in tickets (1st receipt) generally around "midnight' the day you check in ... and that date appears on the ticket. Its really odd they would run one at at 6:44PM the night of check in ... thats very, very early... unless they post arrival times?????

Generally speaking, they could issue both receipts at check in (arrival time) if you pay at the "same time". Then both receipts would be time stamped within a couple of minutes. However, 99% of the motels I stayed at wouldn't do that. Signing a master, Visia, AMX card receipt the morning of check out is standard practice.

What bothers me is the date and time differences. I have stayed at hundreds of motels and believe me I've tried on many occassions to have someone alter the day and/or time on those very same receipts without success. Even while the clerk has a crisp, new $20 bill waving back and forth in front of their face.

With "chain" motels, I believe Knights Inn's is one, the dates are controlled by corporate hqtrs computer on the check in ticket and the bank on credit card receipts. You can't change those dates or times and they are never wrong".

Nana #6 brought up a good point .... depressed people to not get up at 5:30 AM to check out of a motel.

Also, did he talk with his wife the night of check in (29th)???

Check when the motel runs the days "check in tickets" (1st. receipt). That 6:44PM time is very, very early.

Either he was DOA in a trunk at check in time.... or on a spur of the moment decision he met someone at the motel? Why was he there?

The only thing you know for certain is ...someone shows up twice at the motel front desk ... and if it was Ray .... then someone was waiting for him in the motel room after he checks out on the 30th???

Say, he was a military guy ... shouldn't the government have his fingerprints??? Would the fingerprints show up on the motel copy of the ticket and/or bank copy of the receipt?? What happened to his receipts?? Do the police have them checked for fingerprints??

I would think "60 Minutes" would love this investigation.

":rolleyes:Just another pathetic liberal who couldn't deal with the fact that President Bush won the election fair and square."

Pail Rider: some drunken snot bag who hangs over a pail all day because he is about to barf from mixing fru fru drinks and beer.

What makes you think he was a liberal, or even a democrat? Just because he wasn't a wannabe cop, president of his Lutheran church congregation, and wannabe cop and Republican, like BTK?

It does get pretty damn strange when you begin to look into the connections between this, Danny Casolaro, INSLAW, BCCI, Iran-Contra, The Christic Institute, and Gary Webb. Guess who is back in the government today. All the major players, some who were even convicted, in the Iran-Contra affair. I am a professional cynic and skeptic, and this stinks to lower than low hell.

You are a brave individual Brad! I admire you. Hang tough and that suicide password thing might not be a bad idea. I got here from www.rawstory.com. This story is spreading. si submitted this page to mm.

I've been hoping we'd hear meore on this case. The timing of a "suicide" makes no sense in his case, and I hope this will open more doors that need to be opened for Mr. Curtis' case.

Hey pail rider, even though your wife has infrequent ablutial urges, like you, I do her while you are at work, and she loves it the liberal meat.

DJ Nelson, that was Admiral Yamamoto who said that, not the Emperor, and he was shot down in a plane in an operation intended to kill him, but not necessary to make it look like an accident. So was Dag Hammerskjold. So it happens, but you are going off into LaRouchian tin foil hat land, bubba.

Shannon Floyd is teaching at Valdosta Technical College. See:

http://www.valdostatech.edu/news/index.asp

"Shannon Floyd New Law Instructor

Shannon Floyd joins the faculty of Valdosta Technical College as the Law Enforcement Instructor. She will teach in the new Criminal Justice program that began January 6, 2005.
She holds a Master of Public Administration degree and a Bachelor of Arts in Criminal Justice degree, both from Valdosta State University. Floyd taught as an adjunct professor in Criminal Justice for Valdosta State from 2003-2004. While at the university as a student, she worked for the VSU Department of Public Safety.
Her professional experience includes work with the City of Valdosta Police Department as a forensic specialist, firearm examiner, detective and crime scene technician as well as patrolman. She has also worked as a private investigator and held an internship with the Georgia Bureau of Investigation.
Floyd holds certifications as an Identification Technician, the Basic Peace Officer Certification, Identification of Marijuana by Microscope Certification and a Smith & Wesson Armorers Certification. She is the Membership Committee Chair for the South Georgia Chapter of the Police Benevolent Association of Georgia, Inc. and a member of the Peace Officers Association of Georgia. She published an article, “Why Education is Important” in the Georgia Troopers’ News Journal in the Spring/Summer 1995 edition."

There's a picture of her on this page as well.

Thanks, Brad, for all of your great work on this issue! I agree that staying in the public eye might help keep you safe, but be careful!

Brad this is the first time I read about this and it is incredulous. Clearly there are some stark inconsistancies that probably indicate foul play. A ninth grade HS student could complete a better investigation than it appears the Valdosta Police Department are capable.

It saddens me to no end to see that local police men and woman will compromise themselves and succumb to political pressure and bury a probable murder case.

Could you post the names, addresses, emails and telephone numbers of any government officials and employees so I can contact them directly and encourage them to follow through on their investigation.

Thank you.

[quote]What makes you think he was a liberal, or even a democrat? Just because he wasn't a wannabe cop, president of his Lutheran church congregation, and wannabe cop and Republican, like BTK?[/quote]

I made the assumption because he was investigating a wild assed conspiracy about election fraud. Quite simular to the cries of "massive" numbers of voter intimidation in Florida that, somehow mysteriously DID NOT result in any court cases.....hmmmmm. Must've been because there wasn't any. Even the race baiting Jesse Jackson couldn't get any factual cases scraped up to form a civil suit.

The inconsistencies with the times and dates can not be explained away - check-ins, check outs, phone calls, witnesses, even his watch stopping (Was it a wind-up? Was there a REASON it was laying on the bathroom counter and just "stopped" at 12:54 on the 30th?) Didn't someone see Lemme at a payphone that morning?

Has anyone seen the phone records for the hotel (not just the room) and for Lemme's house and the company he worked for during that time period?

Busy with much here for the moment guys, so haven't gotten to read all comments yet.

But to quickly respond to Lewis who said in #3 above:

maybe it's time to get "60 minutes" involved. i know they are "mainstream media" and as such, can be pretty whimpy, but i also know they tend to love these kind of stories.

60 Minutes, and other major news organizations know about this story. I have no "turf" I'm interested in protecting here. In fact, before I released the original Curtis affidavit, I offered the entire story to a major newspaper and would have *much* preferred they ran with the story than I.

Since then, I have been contacted by scores of major media organizations, and have always told them I'm happy to help them in *any* way, and give them *everything* I've got.

I'd *love* to have anyone else take over the story...Until then, it seems I need to keep on reporting it.

Things may change soon though. We'll see...

First and foremost, I wish to extend my deepest sympaties to Mr. Lemme's family and loved ones. I cannot imagine how painful it must have been to experience such a tragic loss so suddenly and so unexpectedly --- no matter what the cause. Then to have these pictures splattered across the internet, along with complete strangers dissecting the "facts"...it just must be really unbearable. I am so sorry.

Brad, I respect your caution and your inner-struggle regarding the link you have posted to the crime scene photos. Because you waited to post the link, continued to investigate the "oddities" of the Valdosta police report; as well as attempt to penetrate Capt. Childress's non-stonewalling stonewalling of past and recent events; and because Mr. Lemmes untimely and unusual death DOES ultimately pertain to the Clint Curtis story; I can only conclude that you have done the right thing.

This whole thing smacks of tabloid journalism. Certainly not because of you, your work, or because of Clint Curtis, but because the whole convoluted mess reads like a B-grade movie. Unfortunately, this is no movie. It's real. And it's really sad.

I guess the one question that keeps swirling in my mind is this: If Mr. Lemme was purposefully targeted and killed, why then would the perpetrator(s) stop there? It seems to me, they would want to..um...take care of, shall we say?... Mr. Curtis as well.

Keep up the good work, Brad. You and Clint please stay safe.

Well, well, well, well, well. Looks like the heat is on.

Teresa Heinz Kerry just publically stated:

"COUNTING THE VOTES: Heinz Kerry is openly skeptical about results from November's election, particularly in sections of the country where optical scanners were used to record votes.

"Two brothers own 80 percent of the machines used in the United States," Heinz Kerry said. She identified both as "hard-right" Republicans. She argued that it is "very easy to hack into the mother machines."

"We in the United States are not a banana republic," added Heinz Kerry. She argued that Democrats should insist on "accountability and transparency" in how votes are tabulated.

"I fear for '06," she said. "I don't trust it the way it is right now."

the coming end

To Teresa Heinz (Note: Teresa is not using her husband's last name anymore. One can only assume that this is because she doesn't want to be associated with the loser.): Please provide some proof of your hair brained supposition.

re #42. She posted the link. What the heck else do you want?

You haven't posted any references to anything you have said, so what does that say about you? Troll.

In case Pale Rider missed it, Raymond Lemme was an Army Reservist.

He was also investigating the case as part of his *job* at the Florida State Inspector General's office.

You might want to check a few more facts in the case before jumping to conclusions which will likely make only *you* look silly.

As well, Clint Curtis was a lifelong Republican up until very recently. Just in case you missed that part as well.

Gee Brad, I haven't used a double-edged razor blade since I was a kid. Is the blade consistent with the shaving gear he used? Did he have additional blades with him?I don't think you can buy just one. How did he carry it with out cutting something or himself. And speaking of cuts.

He was righthanded, correct? and did his right hand have any cuts near the fingers that would have had to grip the blade? Not playing amatuer detective here, just curious and wonder why no one who investigated was. And another thing. Look at the organized way everything is laid out on the vanity top--Hardly the sign of a "distraught " man.( looks more like a valet did the job)
I question the following-the lack of any information that indicates a desire to die. He had help and any real police investigater would have looked for the obvious things that I have pointed out, and probabley a lot more. This is just another example of Southern hospitality in reverse

Take care Brad
Peter

one question:

What happened to Lemme's body?

Although there was clearly no autopsy, a number of people (including mortuary/funeral parlor employees) might remember if there was considerable bruising as there appears to be on Lemme's neck. (and, given his posture, this is not the kind of bruise that one would see as a result of post-mortem polling of blood at lower points of the body.)

Whenever right-wingers start to appear here, it means only one thing...they're nervous. Suddenly, we have a flood of "loser" messages again.

Thanks again, Brad. And thanks to you, Teresa. The genie is squirming inside the bottle.

Sorry to go back so long on string, but I just got a chance to read through these now. In reference to #28, DJ Nelson talks about a possible conspiracy and even mentions his friendship with Paul Wellstone, and then, out of the blue, throws in this bit of anti-semetic drivel "The Zionist Jews now control everything in this country. The entire media,the entire government,the banking system." For centuries, Jews have been blamed for everything wrong with the world and I resent having to read this same garbage on this site. What Brad is doing is fantastic and to have such anti-semitic shit attached to this discussion is uncalled for - especially from someone who claims that Paul Wellstone, a Jew, was a friend of his. I can actually stomach the trolls because I know where they are coming from. But we are supposed to be the intelligent ones who rise above that - only to have one of our own insert such garbage.

i knew from the get go all was not right.just got turned on to this site.it's great keep up the good job with keeping us informed,, :O :O

To commit suicide is not easy. One has to be really depressed to do this. In a clinical depressed situation how can Lemme be excited about his 'work'. Things don't add up here. Things are fishy enough here. A chinese mob hit cannot be ruled out. Keep going Brad!!

re #48 this may not be the place for such a discussion, but since it got started here there's probably no better place for it.

-- How do you know that DJNelson is "one of our own". Have you heard from him before? Could he not be a troll? I'm not saying he is or isn't, I'm just asking how you can be so sure.

-- How do you know that his remark "The Zionist Jews now control everything in this country. The entire media, the entire government, the banking system" is "drivel"? What if it's true? If it is true, that would explain a lot of things that don't otherwise make any sense. So ... if you can prove he's wrong then please do so. But just throwing the term "anti-semetic" at him doesn't cut it. At least not for me. Again I am not claiming that he's right or wrong. I would like to see some evidence. On both sides.

Exactly right. Stick to facts and leave the racial and ethnic crap to the other side.

Fact: Raymond Lemme said he was on the verge of breaking a major political scandal involving Feeney, Yang, and the Florida Department of Transportation. Then he died by mysterious and unexplained means.

Fact: He checked out of a motel a day before his body was found inside that same motel.

Fact: Lemme had no reason to be depressed. On the contrary, he was energized by the success of his investigation. He was also looking forward to his daughter's wedding.

Fact: Investigators in Valdosta, Georgia are conspicuously avoiding discussing the evidence. And, having reopened the investigation in December, 2004, they suddenly closed it again after speaking to the Florida Department of Transportation, which might have been complicit in the very wrongdoing Lemme was investigating.

Fact: There was no reason for Lemme to have been in Valdosta in the first place, except if he had been drawn there by someone who promised to help with his investigation. However, there is strong reason for a murderer to have staged a fake suicide in Georgia...unlike Florida, Georgia has no mandatory autopsy requirement.

It's pickin up steam folks - If The Media Is Liberal Why Aren't They All Over This

The Rothschild family is in control of much of the money in this world. They are of Jewish descent and financed the creation of Israel. They are powerful politically, and propel Zionist concerns forward in world affairs.
Zionist Jews probably don't control everything, but they do control a lot.

Wow, Winter Patriot, I am truly disgusted. What DJNelson said was CLEARLY anti-semetic cand untrue. Nobody is infallible and for you to try to cover up for him just because he's "one of us" is foolish and counterproductive. I am quite disappointed.

Its my understanding that Clint Curtis did speak with several sena†ors/reps ... during the period after the so-called 'election' when Conyers was holding hearings, etc.

I am shocked that nothing has exploded re Feeney. I have such a strong feeling in my gut that he was involved in foul play with vote-rigging ... and ... more.

He made a very bad (viscerally so) impression on me during the stolen election fiasco of 2000, when all eyes and much media was on Florida, including the legislature. I took a very strong disliking to the man. I wouldnt have given him a second thought, but once this story surfaced, after the election ... that memory snapped right back.

So, what did happen with the senators who spoke to Clint?

I am glad to hear they are finally going to attempt to discover some justice in this case. These photos just do not show a sucide situation, just to neat for my liking or taste. Note is fishy too, daughter getting married soon. Why would he kill himself when he is about to walk down the the church with his baby girl on his arm. This is not logical or make any sense to me as I am sure it does not for most individuals reading about this sad story.

Re #55: Adam wrote:

"Wow, Winter Patriot, I am truly disgusted. What DJNelson said was CLEARLY anti-semetic cand untrue. Nobody is infallible and for you to try to cover up for him just because he's "one of us" is foolish and counterproductive. I am quite disappointed."

Hey Adam: slow down, and read what I wrote again. (comment #51) ... I am not covering up for anybody. I did not say he is "one of us", it was Ilene who said that, and in fact I challenged her to prove it. I even suggested the possibility that he could have been trolling.

I'm not taking sides here, I am only asking questions. I want to know from both DJNelson and Ilene whether they can back up what they wrote. That's all.

the taking of power fraudulently was done by many in this nation. they know they are guilty. They know some one could talk. This murder may be the thing.. that screws them up. A good private decective is what... the lemme family needs. A man who has no fear. A man who knows.. how to get the facts, no matter who tries to hide them. I am going to write to the FBI a personal letter and I am going to tell them.. that if anything happens to you or to Clint Curtis.. I will know they were involved. Where is the justice? Heaven forbid if Gonzales or Aschroft acts.. like they are doing their jobs... eeeeeeeeegads.. they are as corrupt as tom feeney. Maybe some one at the FBI... just one person.. is not.. maybe Mueller? stay safe.. you guys... we are all watching and praying.. and everyone I see I tell them to read brad blog.

What a sickening feeling I had reading this latest chapter in the Curtis case.

It seems so much more plausible that Lemme was murdered than was not.

How I wish for the day this election corruption comes to light.

With all the billions at stake, and with all these Bush people have to hide, what's a life here or there?

There is a Shannon Floyd at the Valdosta Technical
School. I googled her name, she is teaching Law
Enforcment.

Why would somebody start a suicide note with the time of day? ("8:10 am"). Really, a person in that mental state could care less what time it is.

I don't believe for one second that Raymond Lemme committed suicide. And neither do most of the people posting here.

If we are right, it is only a matter of time before the REST of the truth comes *FLOODING* out. But it won't happen on its own...

It's a shame that the big news organizations have turned into such gutless cowards and heartless politicos.

*Keep on digging, everyone!*

And Brad, kudos as always.

It is ok to be awake late and up early if you are severely depressed. The diagnostic manual accepts either excessive sleep or excessive sleeplessness. Loss of appetite or increase. Weight loss or increase. But certainly he'd have had feelings of hopelessness - not "hey in 2 weeks we'll have answers..."

Putting a time of 8:10 am on the note - is precise. Is that common? Cutting your wrists is...long, drawn out, time to change one's mind, imprecise.

Be careful for Shannon Floyd - she may need protection. If she followed orders without a peep she'd still be in. If she had reservations she'd be out. If she were in control, she'd be in. Etc.

What is the purpose of the tourniqet (sp)? Wouldn't he have had to do research on using that?

Geez, a million questions!!!! This is awful.

Brad, most heroic!

To comment #59:

Don't look to Mueller, for God's sake. He is probably one of the most corrupt members of the Bush administration and probably knows where many of the Bush crime family's bodies are buried, both literally and figuratively. Is it any coincidence that Mueller took office just days before 9/11? Mueller was head of the Justice Department's Criminal Division during the reign of Bush I when DOJ failed to investigate and prosecute the extremely corrupt and murderous folks at BCCI, and did everything to stonewall and derail the investigation of the bank by New York DA Robert Morganthau who went beyond his normal jurisdiction to try to bring the bad guys to justice. Read the excellent book by Beatty and Gwynne, The Outlaw Bank: BCCI, for details.

There was one major thing that really bothered me in seeing those photos. By appearances, this man was meticulate. He supposedly wrote the note - noting the time. The bathroom sink was all arranged neatly - everything was placed just so. And it indeed was a suicide and he planned on being in the tub, then why is there blood outside the tub near the toilet on that towel and the blood way up on the shower tub walls. It seems that if he was being that careful with everything else, that he would have also been just as careful with the final act. If everything was so planned, why would he be so sloppy in the actual act. It just doesn't make any sense.

Re #65. I agree completely, Ken. There's a lot here that just doesn't make any sense ... except if it wasn't a suicide.

re #53. That's a great link, Kes. Good comments there too. It's always a good sign when the trolls come out.

And what else was in the "day planner?"

Okay, everybody, the story is out - the fire is spreading. We have to be patient. Things could happen very fast now, and I expect a WHOLE lot of misinformation - it's the S.O.P with this bunch.

It's great to have the new folks checking in and speaking out - our strength is in numbers. But, we really have to be careful not to fall into the "tin foil hat" category. Conjecture could do a lot of damage. And we have to do everything we can to avoid causing any more pain to the Lemme family - what they have been through already, we can only imagine.

Brad's done great. This will come out, there's no way it can be stopped now.

Everybody just hang on - it's liable to be a bumpy ride.

People who commit suicide don't normally leave a suicide note. That there is a suicide note is already a suspicious situation. Murderers are rarely aware of this and think it will "make it look like suicide", whereas the opposite is true --- the presence of a suicide note makes it look more like murder, not less.

I guess my question is moot and obvious? Is Lemme's work and files just vanished as well as this poor man's life? Is there no record of any of his work, anywhere??
Just asking, it's something i didn't read anywhere, or anyone else has asked..unless i missed it..
Man, brad, you've got me all tangled up in your blog, it's only my third time here in the past year of blogging for me..you got me!! Prayers and safety...

Teresa #54, Winter Patriot #58 -

It's unfortunate that prejudice and society's earnest attempts to overcome it sometimes create an even greater and more insidious bigotry: intolerance for any remark, whether innocently made or not, whether truthful or just speculative, that appears to be critical of the "protected" group - in this case Jews. Zionist Jews. P.C. bigotry leads to the wilful refusal to look at facts because facts might turn out not to be P.C. It also leads to logical fallacies and confused thinking. As when a hypothetical reporter speaking of a gang in L.A. as a "gang of black youth" is set upon for racial prejudice although, in fact, the gang in question IS comprised entirely of black youth.

I have no more racial or religious prejudice than a turnip. I converted to Judaism when engaged to a Jewish man. So when I say that Ariel Sharon is dangerous, I mean that he is dangerous, not that I don't like Jews.

Just a ramble - I'm tired and we have a major storm going on that keeps disconnecting me, so if my remarks appear disjointed, it's probably because they are.

Brad, congratulations on a job well done. Would that the mainstream media pursue the truth with as much integrity as you have. Thank you for continuing your quest for the truth.

Mr. Lemme is another in a long line of questionable suicides and rigged airplane accidents. (Yes, Paul Wellstone was murdered.) God bless Mr. Lemme's family for being put through this hell by the powers that be. May the people who have committed this murder (and covered it up) receive payback tenfold.

Ilene #48 re: DJNelson #28,
I'm not at all sure that DJ is *one of our own.*

This is a very delicate subject and everyone is always very careful to avoid it because of fears of being accused of anti-Semitism. I am not anti-Semite. I have a whole bunch of Jewish friends. But I'm not at all sure about Zionist Jews. I'm not even comfortable typing that. I agree with Winter Patriot in that I'd like to see evidence on both sides. I have been carefully following events of the past few years and Zionist Jews keep popping up in the equation. I have been very careful to not jump to conclusions, mostly because of my sympathy towards Jewish people, but there appears to be more and more evidence that the Zionists seem to be involved in a lot of odd situations. Is it anti-Semitic (?) to question? I don't think so. Non-accountability based on race or religious belief is wrong. We should be able to discuss how we feel without being accused of being racist or *anti* anything.

{this comment has been deleted for many reasons: it's way off topic, it duplicates a comment made on another thread, and it came from a poster using multiple names. If you want to read the deleted text, it's still available on the other thread, here}

Ken and WP #65 & 66,
I'm not at all sure that HST committed suicide either.

Transparently obviously NOT likely a suicide. The body is conveniently found in Georgia, and on and on. Is there any vestige of a justice system left in Florida? That suicide password idea sounds pretty good to me, for anyone fighting for justice, for anyone making noise.

Thanks Brad for your tenacity and courage.

There's very little I would put past the criminals controlling the state of Florida and the United States of America these days.

Ultimately they're doing it all for Jesus, you see, so it's OK. Really.

Remember a fish rots from the head.

Is there any vestige of a justice system left in our entire country?

More questions. Even if autopsies are not automatically performed in Georgia, one still could have been requested and performed, in Georgie or Florida. Once Mrs. Lemme has had time to consider, wouldn't she want her husband's murdered caught and brought to justice?

I agree, that the "suicide note" indicates to me that Mr. Lemme was told to cooperate or that his "family" would be in jeopardy. Maybe Mrs. Lemme or daughter has actually been threatened, and that's why they are remaining silent.

Finally, there are many interesting questions raised above, including the "rasor" used, and Mr. Lemme's journal. That woman Shannon Floyd sounds like an incompetent so-and-so, and will only be interested in her reputation and covering her butt. I hope someone will go and ask her a lot of questions which she won't answer, even if it's just to annoy her. It's minor compared to her inability to properly report on the death of Mr. Lemme. She is supposed to be an advocate for victims - the last line of defense. She failed!

I guess it's too late to have Mr. Lemme's body exhumed and have a "professional" autopsy performed - or was his body cremated?

This is the makings of a great story. I want to just point out to those that are getting enraged over racial slurs and such that any discussion of that kind of foolishness wheather for or against, diminishes the story here. Lets keep focused on the situation at hand. Disrupters in threads will often attempt to derail the conversation. The best fix for off subject discussion is to ignore it. Hopefully what I'm writing here will be the last of it. This case is incredibly perplexing and I am curious how the MSM has ignored it. It has the makings of a great story. A great sad story about the death of a man and possibly about the death of democracy.

whyever did the watch stop?

There is another conflict with the dates and receipts. The credit card shows a 06:54 check out and the "suicide note has 8:10 am written on it.

Remember the woman who claimed Bush raped her? She committed suicide not too long ago as well. As did Hunter Thompson, days before he told a close friend he was going to be murdered.

This is a good story Brad, Ive been emailing it around. Hope it gets some attention. Though these things usually never see the light of day.

I have the same question #71 had - what happened to the files, papers, etc. of Mr. Lemme?
Was he working alone or did someone help him? Perhaps that person, if there is one, has duplicate files. We definitely need someone with power(Senator , Congressman or otherwise) to push for a complete investigation. There has to be at least one honest government representative that has some guts! Anyone have any suggestions?

re #84. Right.

He checked in, then he left his home and started for work (in another state), then he checked out, then he snuck back in, wrote a suicide note, filled the bathtub, climbed in and committed suicide, and then he stopped his watch.

Or at least this is what we are supposed to believe.

I am entirely convinced that Paul Wellstone and his family were murdered. I've been doing some research on this very recently, and planning to write a piece on it for my blog. Unfortunately it isn't ready yet. But it sure does look like a premeditated murder to me. One with high-level connections, too.

But I am not at all sure what to make of the Hunter Thompson story. The Hollywood Liberal has been asking some interesting questions. His blog is here, and his HST article is about halfway down the page.

Pail Rider

"I made the assumption because he was investigating a wild assed conspiracy about election fraud. Quite simular to the cries of "massive" numbers of voter intimidation in Florida that, somehow mysteriously DID NOT result in any court cases.....hmmmmm. Must've been because there wasn't any. Even the race baiting Jesse Jackson couldn't get any factual cases scraped up to form a civil suit."

You made the assumption because you are knee-jerk neo-con asshole, who has the attention span of a game of Tic Tac Toe. He wasn't investigating election fraud you fucking idiot. Maybe you should take week to read all about it as they say. Unless of course, the fact that these neocon morons you worship, like one of your favorite commandments prohibits, being in bed with Chinese communist spies is OK with you. That's not OK with me, and I think Fidel Castro is the coolest thing since sliced bread. He's got more cajones than all the pansy ass politicians in this entire country put together.

"On July 1, 2003 --- just two weeks later --- Raymond Camillo Lemme was found dead in a bathtub, with his arm slashed twice with a razor blade near the left elbow in Room #132 of the Knights Inn motel in Valdosta, Georgia; a border-town some 80 miles from Tallahassee, Florida where Lemme lived and worked."

Ray Lemme, psychic investigator. So good he is investigating 2004 election fraud in 2003. No wonder we have an idiot in the White House. With idiots like pail rider riding around on his pail, and probably too poor and stupid to afford in door plumbing, he has to pee in it too. Man! You Bushie trolls are stupid.

THE SUICIDE IS BULLSHIT. I don't usually get personal, but here goes. I've had two people near and dear to me in my life commit sucide. In both cases, no suicide notes. They both also felt trapped in a situation they felt they couldn't escape. People don't plan their suicides. It happens in a flurry of hopelessness. The suicide note should have been the first tip that this may have been murder. Suicide notes usually only happens in the movies. And they don't drive for miles to do it. Gives them time to think.

With a murder, there's always a motive. That's true in a suicide too. What specifically did Lemme feel depressed about? People leaving this world aren't concerned with how they'll be perceived. They just want to leave. Why is a guy leaving this world worried about spilling blood on the bathroom floor? Sure, whatever.

Keep digging, Brad. Your gut instincts are pointing you in the right direction.

You're asking where does it go from here? Its in our hands, the American public. It is our obligation to take this evidence, track down the investigators involved, get the family to speak and to present any and all information (including copies of information in this blog) to our house representatives and senators. Demand an answer, demand a special prosecutor and do it quickly. If someone traced it to the top, we can do the same.

We're not just conspiracy theorists, and we need to stop being dismissed as such. Align yourself with allies in government and get them working on this.

For now I think the most prudent thing would be to find out who in the FDOT was dealing with this. I doubt the hotel has security footage, but the family can subpoena to find out if there is any.

O.K. I'm going to jump in here and feed the troll - just for a lark. What possible connection could there have been between Lemme's despondent "suicide" in 2003 to a depression brought on by Bush's "victory" in November 2004? Huh? (Ref #21)

This prevailing right-wing brilliance is blinding.

Nunya #88-89 -

Love ya.

I'm going to interject an OT here before crawling into bed and having a raging ice-storm lull me to sleep and sweet dreams.

The VR site is deader'n' a doornail. No postings. No comments. Hey! Free and fair elections are what we desperately desire and stand for. Grisly murders are all fine and dandy; but we need to pay attention to our mundane daily bread.

Patriots, arise!!

Thanks for that, Horkus. I'll get personal for a moment too.

A friend of our family committed suicide and he did leave a note. Not really a note, but a long anguished letter, pages and pages and pages, in which he tried very hard to explain why he felt driven to do it.

We're all different. There's no situation that would cause everybody to react the same way. The presence of a note does not eliminate the possibility that it was genuine suicide.

But there many other details that make me think it was a murder. The discrepancies between the physical evidence and the police report make me very suspicious.

And then there's a question of motive. Why would Ray Lemme want to die? Who else would want him dead?

Regarding the motel receipt dates, Brad reports that Childress said "We were told the management of the hotel made a mistake." I've read the entire police report. This is mentioned NO WHERE in the report. And "we were told", by who?

During Brad's second conversation with Childress, Childress says "the media has blown this out of proportion." Uh, Hello? WHAT media? This has gone virtually unmentioned by "the media".

Agree with Brad: WHO at the FDOT convinced them to re-close the case?

Finally, as Robert Lockwood Mills says in Comment #4, somebody has some explaining to do about the timeline. I'll lay it out in another post.

SUICIDE NOTE GENUINE?

Bear in mind, a person can be FORCED to write something down. Like a suicide note. It might be his real handwriting, because he might have really been forced to write it.

The omission of his beloved daughter by name seems suspcious to me. Maybe it's something that his murderers didn't know about, and he intentionally left it out as a red flag. Hmm?

Think about what the crime scene would've looked like WITHOUT a suicide note. Murder, right? Right.

#95

Winter, thanks for the reply. But a note and pages of letters are two different things. I'm not saying that a person who commits suicide won't write a note, it's just unusual. It doesn't happen in most cases. This could be one be one of those extraordinary rare cases where a person commiting suicide wrote a note, but unliklely in my mind as it pertains to the case. Suicide is a truly selfish act. The ones commiting the act don't think about the people they'll hurt. That is often why you won't find a suicide note. That alone should have made Lemme's death suspect.

Brad, I just read through all the posts and found my earlier post (#40) sounded quite different than I had intended.

When I wrote it, I was caught up in the imaginings of what Mr. Lemme's family must be feeling. On the one hand, it must be like reliving the nightmare, but on the other, they must want answers as well.

Anyway, I'd like to clarify my thoughts better. This is amazing work on your part. When I said it sounded like "tabloid journalism" or reads like "a B-grade movie", I meant the whole shebang: Mild mannered Clint Curtis caught in a world of international espionage, political powerplays and murder. I don't doubt any of this, it's just so very, very bizarre. I believe Clint's story. I think in all likelyhood Mr. Lemme was murdered. Particularly when one looks at the timeline of events. Peterpont in post #45 certainly makes some good observations as well.

Finally, I just want to say that I think you are doing a bang-up job. Please be careful. These are dangerous people you are probably upsetting.That's all.

The only way that the US citizens are going to deal with any of this ...... is take up arms against the current administration, and find a way to get the armed forces to stand down while this is going on. If this doe'nt happen, I'm afraid that it will be a fate of comple'

Bush/Chenney and the boys will win.... (Not sure what they will win, but they will IMO)

in comment #98, Horkus wrote:

"thanks for the reply".
Not at all. Same to you.

"But a note and pages of letters are two different things."
Absolutely true.

Another friend-of-a-friend committed suicide without even leaving a body. All kinds of people do all kinds of things.

But in this case ... I would have a lot easier time believing that Ray Lemme's death was a suicide if his note had said anything about why he was "depressed" or why he was "in pain". Or if his wife had confirmed that he was "depressed" or "in pain". As I recall, she said he was "under stress". That's a lot different.

It also would have looked more genuine if he had mentioned his daughter by name. Or if he didn't write the time of day at the top of it. Or if his check-out receipt didn't indicate that he had already left the motel.

So ... to cut to the chase: I agree with you that this 'suicide note' looks suspicious. But I don't buy into any blanket generalizations. Sometimes the ones committing the act think very much about the people they will hurt. Everybody's different.

But the note is only part of the puzzle. And I think we agree that this looks like a murder. It also seems like the police were looking to cover it up. No photos? Photos! No evidence of foul play? Big bruises! No blood on the towel? Lots of red drops on the towel! And so on. Not stonewalling? But not answering any questions either! My oh my!

One more thing, Horkus. Condolences.

#101 Winter

Very well. Your entitled to you opinions. I won't harp on the note thing. It's too much to go into. But a reminder. Every generalization has it's exception to the rule, there are no blanket statements that I've made. As in the Jon Benet Ramsey case. You don't usually find a body and a ransom note in the same place. But as I've said, there are exceptions to the rule.

Didn't understand your response, but peace anyways.

Timeline that needs to be explained:

Sun 06/29/03
========
18:44 Reservation receipt for motel room generated.

Mon 06/30/03
========
05:15 Lemme leaves for work.
06:15 Lemme makes call from pay phone at Hwy 19 and Interstate 10..
06:54 Motel credit card receipt with Lemme's signature.
18:45 Lemme checked into hotel.

Tue 07/01/03
========
08:10 Time on suicide note.
11:00 Time Lemme was supposed to check out.
13:06 Lemme found dead.

Lemme could not have signed reciept at 6:54 am on 6/30/03. Why? We know that at 6:15 am he made a phone call from Hwy 19 and Interstate 10. According to Mapquest, this is aprox 1 hour and 15 minutes away from the Motel.

Investigators need to absolutely nail down those receipt dates. If they are correct, something is fishy.

conspiracy theorists ,whats "past tense" for that ?

One other thing about the "suicided note" is the underlining of first, the word "family" and then at end the double underlining, of "I love you" .This seems odd to me.Also in another crime scene picture (http://www.insider-magazine.com/unrestricted_warfare.htm) which show the diary in which the "suicided note" was written ,(you must assume these picture were taken before the crime scene was corrupted by the investigators and coroners staff etc.) I notice that the pen used to write the "suicided note" is placed in a position that normally only a left-handed person would do (I’m left-handed) .Not a smoking gun but interesting just the same , try it ,write a note and put the pen down ……..well ?

It always comes down to who gains from this suicide scenario. Keep up the good work Brad! You and Clint are in my prayers.Watch your backs. I love this site I have learned so much from the stories as well as the comments. Great bunch of patriots!

#71 Absolutley!

Where are his files on the case??? Did he not back anything up in a computer???

And what else WAS in the day planner???

Is there ANYTHING in it in the future that would state an important meeting or an exciting event he was looking forward to???

Something???

God Bless, I'm praying for the family right after this

re #103: American Woman: If you have this right, then my comments in #87 are wildly wrong. That could be the case. I've been wrong before. I think I need to look at all this again. Sigh.

#100--
Please reconsider... violence should never be a justifiable option. Never.

I don't have my notes in front of me right now, but American Woman is almost exactly right. Including the distances she mentions from when Lemme called his supervisor at 6:15am to say he'd be late.

Those were details I didn't report in the story today, so it's clear she's working from some of the same police info that I was.

I have a question about only one line in timeline, this one from 06/30/03:

"18:45 Lemme checked into hotel."

Where do you get that one from? Either I missed it, or I'm too tired to remember. Both could very well be true.

Beyond that, you guys have been asking some great questions! Some of which I can answer, and some of which I can't.

I will try to do so in a follow-up post tomorrow.

Thanks all for many very kind words!

Brad,

There are some facts about this case I am unclear about, besides, "When EXACTLY was the time of death established to be?"...

1) Did his wife ever get the cell phone bill showing what phone numbers he had calls with that day, June 30? Surely the Police asked for that!? Would his wife be kind enough to provide that for "background"?

2) In the photo at the hotel, the bed looks made, untouched. So he couldn't have slept there that night, checked out, and then returned to a cleaned room. Or was it a two bed room?

3) Did he sneak back into the room after checking out? How could he have, THE LOCK ON THE DOOR is a card reader. Did he request 2 key cards? Or did he check-in again? If so, where is the second check-in slip. Surely the police have that?

4) His shirt is hanging in the closet. All his accesories, including his tie, are neatly set on the counter top. Everything is in it's right place, exept for his shoes. Why wouldn't he put them near the closet? Seems an odd place for someone who is being so ritualistic.

5) The red "to go" coffee cup is next to the TV. Which means he set it down before laying on the bed or sitting at the desk. If he was done with the cup why didn't he throw it away?

5) The bottled water is also next to the TV. The bottle seems to be half full. He brings 2 beverages into a hotel room and leaves them there? Why? Was he double fisting? Did he bring the drinks into the room at two separte times? If he was done with it, again, wouldn't he have thrown it away, afterall, he seems to be a very neat person?

6) Doesn't the fact that he was investigating a major scandal naturally turn the case into a murder investigation? What are the standard protocols?

7) Surely the investigators asked to see the video surveillance tapes of his check in, and check out, and copy them? That would help establish his times/dates of entry/departure, since there was such an obviously flawed date on the receipts?

8) So in June 30 (Monday), 2003, the price of a room for one occupant of Raymond Lemme go for $49.00/night. Why are the prices now $33.00/night in 2005? Am I missing something there?

Thanks to you, too, Brad. Best wishes as always.

American Woman,

I believe (assume) that the "reservation receipt" date came from the same computer date as did the bankcard check out receipt.

The Police theory goes that BOTH the June 29 date and June 30 date SHOULD REALLY READ June 30 and July 1.

But unless the Police confirm that, officially, WITH EVIDENCE, then they are dismissing a MAJOR piece of evidence on those receipts.

What we need are 2 timelines. One which is backed up by EVIDENCE (which you showed), and one that is the POLICE theory.

Too tired to do that now...

Quickly for 108: Thomas Jefferson left written disagreement with you. It's called a Constitutional Right, and it wasn't fer huntin' varmints. At least, not 4 legged ones. And as a Liberal that loves his Constitutional Rights, I'll always remind you of that fact.

Now, Brad,

let's play connect the dots:

This was a whistle-blower investigation? I am correct?

Who benefits from Mr. Lemme's death ( I am not convinced he was murdered, or committed suicide at this early stage)?

Now, who recently made the news ( the last two days recent enough news cycle?) by arousing concerns using a Presidential Secrecy Power to CANCEL WHISTLE-BLOWER'S Cases?

Who benefits?

First visit. Great site.

Wish folks would just ignore the trolls from the "Right", speaking to them just encourages the cretans.

Who did Mr. Lemme call Hwy 9 & Interstate 10? That might provide a lead.

American woman is right, time was too short. Plus it is rush hours. Possible and highly probable that the people who were behind this *suicide* made a calculation error on the "time factor". Not uncommon in 'mob hit'.

What would be interesting to observe is how the police dept. is persuing these clues. Have they ignored these details? Are the detectives afraid that this may lead to ............... I guess these are missing pieces of the puzzle we must track closely.

Wait!!

Isn't this a case for that female writer, that has that Forensic Coroner, as her heroine, man, it escapes me, send this to her to investigate. I do believe I read she actually funded a Forensic lab for the city of Richmond, and she thinks she solved the Jack the Ripper case!! Appeal to her ego. (100 to 1 she's a repub)

Frame it as a case where an experienced woman dectective is being blamed by "leftist bloggers" as suspiciously inept......

Man, I am devious.

Feels good.

Watch out, kkkkarl, we're after you, and if we get just a tiny fingerhold, well, if you think your boyfriend jefjim is a "bulldog" wait until we chew you up and spit your bones out.

Wanted war?

With the legions of morons on YOUR side, and the facade of msm falling, and losing your propagana efficy...

You're in deep dodo, doughboy.

Bando, WHY did the watch stop in a suicide?

Earlier poster caught that, I thought Hecule Poirot had shown up.

VERY odd, that.

And WHO let the "flashcards" out?

Perhaps they deserve an apple?

Maybe I'm missing something. But what difference does it make whether the motel's machine was a day behind or not?

The fact is, the last entry for Raymond Lemme at the motel is for his CHECKING OUT. If he had committed suicide in that motel room, regardless of the date or time, the last entry would have been for his CHECKING IN.

Unless my facts are wrong, for Lemme to have committed suicide there it means that he snuck back into a motel he had already checked out of for the purpose of killing himself. To believe that one must be a real conspiracy theorist.

Bando asked: "Who did Mr. Lemme call Hwy 9 & Interstate 10? That might provide a lead. "

His boss, to tell him he'd be in late (per sworn affidavit of boss, Robert Clift).

OMG! this is so gross and evil..and it leads straight back to the neo-con death cult Bushs (like most political corruption does these days!)
What the hell are we going to do to save our country from these horrific people? Even the Clintons :O are falling under their spell more every day! Golf with both Bushs? Excuse me while I barf. :angry:

The note seems ridiculous to me. It doesn't sound depressed. And the handwriting doesn't look right. It looks more like a thank you note. Or "I've run out to get some milk... be right back."

And solving crimes or being part of a huge breaking story is exciting, adrenalin producing, and addictive. One waits in great anticipation to see what will happen next. Not at all the prelude to suicide.

Has any evidence surfaced to indicate a reason for Ray Lemme to have gone to Valdosta on his own?
If I were investigating the case, that would be my starting point.

Lemme was working on a matter involving the Florida Department of Transportation, and people in the state government in Tallahassee. According to Clint Curtis' affidavit, he told Curtis he was close to breaking the case open. He told his wife he was working on a big case, which confirms the affidavit.

So why go to Valdosta? If there was someone there who could have helped him, that would be a reason. But who? Nobody has come forward, and surely someone who sincerely wanted to help Lemme would have done so by now, recognizing that the "suicide" was a fraud.

The greater likelihood is 1) Somebody lured him to Valdosta with a promise to help with key information, then murdered him and set it up to look like a suicide, or 2) He was murdered in Florida and his body taken to Valdosta to escape the autopsy requirement.

But #2 could be ruled out if it could be established that it was Ray Lemme who checked in at the motel and signed the credit card slip. That's why testimony from the check-in clerk is needed. Lemme's family says the handwriting is his, and it does match the "suicide note." So #1 looks like the most logical guess.

In any event, the physical evidence seems to rule out a suicide.

One thing - although it seems odd that someone would write a time on a suicide note, that detail may or may not be significant. Anyone who has ever worked government contracts knows you bill for time spent on a contract up to the 1/10th of an hour, and after a few years it becomes habit to time and date-stamp everything for your records - even personal notes. It took years for me to get out of the habit of grabbing a pen and paper to take notes whenever the phone rang.

Although it seems odd in context, as someone else pointed out, he seems to have been a man who paid meticulous attention to detail.

With that in mind..

Was he in the habit of time-stamping his personal notes? Could it have been a way of flagging attention in hopes of investigation?

Or could it have been an intentionally misleading piece of evidence put there by someone who was already practiced at immitating his handwriting?

***

Also, as far as checking out of the hotel...when I travel with someone, it's not uncommon for one of us to go check out and grab some coffee while the other finishes packing - that way there is someone in the room to open the door even though the keys have been returned, and we're still gone before checkout time.

It's possible the person he was supposed to meet was already in the room that morning, and gave him instructions to go check out and then come back to the room. That would also explain the presence of two beverages.

All I'm saying is that there are scenarios where he may indeed have checked out and then returned to the room, in which case the reciepts won't be that helpful.

Lemme must've had hardcopy evidence of his case. Someone must find this. The fact that his portfolio of evidence is gone, means he didn't commit suicide. If his evidence portfolio was there in the room, I would definitely believe it was suicide. Where is it? And I'm sure Lemme shared some, if not all, of his investigation with someone else...I have a feeling someone's going to come forward sooner or later who spoke with Lemme about his investigation. We must find his notes from his investigation, and anyone who spoke with him at all about the investigation.

Um..I don't mean to sound paranoid, BUT...

We should assume that whatever we type is also being read by people who may be deeply involved in this, and with this many people asking these kinds of questions, they're probably not nearly as confident as they were before about getting away with it.

Just a reminder, for what it's worth.

Brad, Winter Patriot, etc - Is anybody saving hard copies of these posts to hand over to any investigators who might take on the case, in case this site just "goes away" one day?

#100 - Aren't you Democrats the ones that are always telling us that guns are bad and trying to ban them? Geeez, do you even know which end of the weapon the bullet comes out of?

I'm just curious, did Mr. Lemme always begin writing in his notebook with the time? He was an investigator, so I would think he would always mark the time in his notes.

Fred, (#110, question The room rates in Valdosta may very well be seasonal. The quotes you are getting right now may not be the same as they are in the summer (June 30). I know Georgia pretty well, born and bred there. South Georgia is a pretty quiet place. Travellers on their way to Florida for summer vacation pass right through Valdosta. Room rates would certainly go up in the summer. That could be the explanation.

Some thoughts on the note. The suicide note was photographed "skewed" to resemble the downward slant that a deeply depressed and suicidal persons writing exhibits. When the note is rotated in photoshop to adjust the lined paper to its proper position the writing does not indicate depression.

#89 - "Ray Lemme, psychic investigator." Ha, ha, ha, ha,.....oh, my sides are hurting...ha, ha, ha, ha. You lunatics are placing your faith in a "psychic investigator"? Oh my, I haven't laughed this hard in quite a while.

You might be right about the checkout process, Kestrel. Under your scenario, does the following
become the only logical sequence of events?

1) Lemme spends the night at the motel with a guy who promises to help him on the case in the morning (of July 1). Or possibly he meets the guy for breakfast, and the guy follows him back to the motel to continue the conversation. This could have been somebody from the Florida D.O.T. (or hired by them) who tells Lemme on the phone, "It's too dangerous to talk about this in Tallahassee." So Lemme goes to Valdosta, where it's "safer" to talk.

2) After he checks out and returns to the room, his "friend" (and maybe others) double-cross him and force him to sign the suicide note under threat of killing his wife and daughter. They strangle him (discoloration of neck) and slash his wrists with his own razor blade (wearing gloves, of course, so only his own prints are found on the blade). They then leave the motel quietly and disappear.

All we need now is Lt. Columbo. I can imagine him speaking to Feeney about the case outside the Capitol, being satisfied that Feeney is telling the truth, then stopping on the Capitol steps, going back up and saying, "Uh, Congressman...there's just one more thing that bothers me here."

I could see where Lemme's omission of mention of his daughter might have been a way of protecting her.

The very first thing I noticed (but ignored) when looking at the scene was that while everything was sooo neat and tidy, the shirt was not. If he was obsessively neat and tidy he would have buttoned the shirt at the collar when he hung it up. (I had a boyfriend like that once.)

What kind of watch is it, how old, waterproof, damaged in any way? The watch stopping is so cliche.

I defintely need autopsy notes. Toxicology, water in lungs, coffee in stomach, etc. I'm guessing that since metabolism stops, these artifacts would still be present.

Re #117, we need Kay Scarpetta

Teresa #124,
And would you call your boss to say you were going to be in late if you were planning to kill yourself?

Oops sorry. My bad. Obviously I'm not a crime sleuth.

COMMENT #132 [link]
...Pale Rider said on 3/9/2005 @ 6:29am PT...

#89 - "Ray Lemme, psychic investigator." Ha, ha, ha, ha,.....oh, my sides are hurting...ha, ha, ha, ha. You lunatics are placing your faith in a "psychic investigator"? Oh my, I haven't laughed this hard in quite a while.

Ahhh... But that is not nearly as hysterical as you following an illegally elected President that has a criminal conviction, is a coward and went AWOL, and whose daughters all have criminal convictions also! A man who claimes he "talks to god"! How psychic do you want to get? LMAO My question is... does God answer him back, or does his own voice simply echo in his empty head?

A president that is bankrupting the nation. Do you even have a clue what is happening right under your nose? America will be in recession within a year. Japan is already talking to China about selling it's share of the US debt, if that happens, then China will own a big chunk of the USA! All is has to do then is threaten to sell a tiny part of it in Euros, and it will then cost you $10 to buy an apple!

I truly hope you *are* having a good laugh, because it will end soon. But you will have the memory... enjoy!

Just to stay on topic now, after my previous post, I rechecked the info I have on Floyed. She appears far too experienced and too well trained to have made mistakes. So, either she didn't do her job on purpose, or she did do her job, and it's being kept secret.

Regarding Ms. Floyd: I would suggest that moving from the Valdosta P.D. to a college professorship is a career upgrade in her eyes. She's undoubtedly smart, but scared at this point, and I wouldn't blame her.

When the Valdosta P.D. reopened the case in December, then quickly closed it again (after talking to "someone" at the Florida D.O.T.!), that was a clue that something is rotten in Denmark, folks. Suddenly the chief doesn't want to talk any more, and the former investigator-turned-professor doesn't want to talk, and why won't those liberals in the blue states let this go away?

I e-mailed Bill Keller at the New York Times a thumbnail summary of the known facts to date and asked him to assign an investigative reporter to the case. Anybody want to set the odds against the chance of a positive reply?

#15:

I totally agree. The underlined "family" jumped off the page at me. Could this be his way of signaling that his actions were under duress - emphasize family, yet not mention his beloved only daughter at all?

Also I agree that this final note has a very unnatural detached sound to it and is incredibly brief as if it were a race against time.

The double-spaced lines also seem odd, but, who knows, that may have been his style of writing.

...some other thoughts...

On the receipt, the "y" in Raymond has a huge loop in it; all the "y"'s in the suicide note are different, with small loops.

Where do you get one of those old fashioned razors from? I couldn't get one, if you offered me money. If he was alone, he would've placed the blade he cut himself with, in that place in the picture. With all that blood caused by the razor cut, probably all over his hands, why is there no blood pools or drips around where the razor lies?

Someone who just "cracked open a big case" wouldn't commit suicide. It doesn't make sense!

Obviously, the huge bruise on the side of his neck is not typical of a suicide. And, the belt & towel appear to be placed there later, because the towel has not absorbed the blood dripping down the side of the tub! Maybe, the bruises on his neck are from an assailant choking him with the belt. Then the assailant placed down the towel and put the belt on top of it, afterwards. Was the belt checked for fingerprints? Were there footprints under the towel? Was the room checked for bloody footprints?

I'm not an expert, but these are things I would've checked or noticed in seconds...

"#89 - "Ray Lemme, psychic investigator." Ha, ha, ha, ha,.....oh, my sides are hurting...ha, ha, ha, ha. You lunatics are placing your faith in a "psychic investigator"? Oh my, I haven't laughed this hard in quite a while."

Bucket Rider, you are laughing at your own stupidity. I was being facetious. Big word, look it up. Has nothing to do with the face eating aliens who anally probed you last night. Your original post:

":rolleyes:Just another pathetic liberal who couldn't deal with the fact that President Bush won the election fair and square."

Is very funny considering Lemme's death occurred over a year before the election. So if he killed himself for that reason, he had to be a psychic. You moron, go play with a loaded gun and point it at your head and put yourself out of your misery. Lot's of liberals can shoot a helluvalot better than you can read or think.

Yes, Jefferson and many others have made remarks about the duty of every citizen to take up arms against tyrants, and they were referring to any tyrants, even ones produced by their own governments. Jefferson said that the tree of liberty should be watered in blood every 20 years. Something to that effect. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.

Lemme was probably drowned in the water in the bath tub. They held him under until he suffocated, sucked water to his lungs, and died.

He was very dead but still very warm when the murders then immediately cut his arm so the blood would drain into the water.

This makes it look like lotsa blood drained.

If the Valdosta Police had not been incompetent or corrupt they would have seen the need for an autopsy to show the real cause of death.

I think he was strangled, but I doubt it was with that belt. Why would a murderer leave the murder weapon around, when he could have folded it into his pocket?

I'm no forensic pathologist, but I suspect if the belt had been the murder weapon, from the murderer's perspective it could have been compared to the marks on Lemme's neck in such a way as to establish the fact. Maybe not, but why would a hired murderer take such a risk?

Just a point regarding Floyd. College professorship is gilding the lily a bit. Valdosta Tech? It's a technical college. I bet she doesn't even have more than an AA degree herself, if even that. Administration of Justice is what it used to be called here in CA. If they are calling it Criminal Justice now, which wouldn't surprise me, they are again gilding the lily. When I majored in CJ awhile ago (it's only been specific discipline since the 1970s) it was part of the behaviorial and social sciences dept. and only taught at 4 year universities. But things have changed for the worse on most campuses. Football and business. Waste of time and money. Having said that, and without looking into it too much, you do learn the job by doing it, however, Valdosta, GA is probably not the kind of place you would get OTJ like LA, NY, or Chicago. In other words, calling her a detective may be gilding the lily a bit too.

Great work Brad.

My thoughts:
If the Georgia police closed the investigation and believe it was suicide, then there's nothing to hide, and no reason for them not to tell you who it was in FDOT that helped them decide to close the investigation.

The more I think about this, the more I believe finding out who that person was at FDOT is very very VERY key to this investigation.

There's 2 possibilities: either Lemme committed suicide, or he didn't.
Questions I'd ask the FDOT person:
When and how did you find out the investigation was reopened?
Why are you so concerned about the investigation of Lemme's death?
If you believe Lemme committed suicide, and Lemme was your friend, or at least not your enemy, and it's POSSIBLE that he was murdered, why would you want the investigation closed? If Lemme POSSIBLY was murdered, wouldn't you want Lemme's family to get justice? Wouldn't you want Lemme's family to get closure?
Why do you, as an employee of Florida, have any jurisdiction/authority/power to close an investigation in GEORGIA? Why did the Georgia police listen to you?

Lets see here: Lemme might have been murdered for something that he discovered at FDOT and elsewhere that went "all the way to the top". If Lemme was murdered, there are 2 kinds of people at FDOT: innocent people and corrupt people. The person at FDOT who called the Georgia police is one of those 2 kinds of people - innocent or corrupt. Which kind of person would be most likely - the most motivated - to try to close the suicide/murder investigation? Innocent or corrupt? I think an innocent person at FDOT would be very unlikely to intervene in the murder case of Mr. Lemme. This FDOT person OBVIOUSELY has something to hide or cover up.

I didn't see water in the bathtub, which is usually why you choose to do it that way, warm water makes it easier, more comfortable. Surely you all remember Frankie Five Angels and Tom H (Robert Duvall) Don Vito's consigliere and their discussion before Frankie's testimony, which he never showed up for. The Godfather? See that again. So just for speculation's sake. he could have committed suicide, like Frank Pentangeles, because he was convinced it was in his best interests. One poster on the original post said the motel was a flop house near strip joints. Why did he stay in such a cheesey motel? Near strip clubs? I think it's highly suspicious. But keep an open mind and don't give the locals down there more credit than they deserve.

I agree it's vital to know who at the Florida D.O.T. killed the reopened investigation, because there is no benign explanation for his having done so (such as protecting national security). There must be a way to compel the Chief of Police in Valdosta to reveal who it was, and why he took orders from somebody in Florida. Freedom of Information Act? Class-action suit? Congressional hearing?

Since this involves the possibility that a dead body was carried across state lines, it should mean Congress can involve itself. Are you there, John Conyers? Anybody from the Georgia delegation?

Fucking rediculous!

Georgia police say the equivalent of:

"We re-opened the suicide/murder investigation because people brought to our attention many unanswered questions, new information, many suspicious things, and showed us many mistakes in the original investigation. If Mr. Lemme was murdered, it had something to do with people FDOT. However, the MURDER SUSPECTS at FDOT assured us that THERE'S NOTHING TO SEE HERE, so we promptly closed the investigation.

comment 133:

Yes, we do need Lt. Columbo. I have been thinking that all along. How we he investigate this case? Obviously, he would follow Feeney around for weeks under the guise of "just trying to tie up some loose ends."

I do remember one thing Columbo said in an episode, I believe it was the one that starred John Casavetes. He said, "It's just me. I don't know, I guess I've been doing this for too long." (or something to that effect). "But whenever I hear about a suicide, I think murder."

It is probably true that a good number of "suicides" are actually murders. We know police generally don't have the training to properly investigate these cases.

But what else would Columbo be doing on this case right now? Certainly, he'd want to see all the receipts. So he'd hang out at the motel a bit, examine the machines and how they worked. Then he'd probably take a drive to the place where Lemme made a phone call from. He'd time the placing of the call and the drive to the motel, and compare it to the check-in time on the receipt. He would certainly look at the photos and condition of the body. He'd talk to the family and co-workers. Ask to see his work files. But what would be the final, most important piece of evidence? Hmmm... If we figure that out, maybe we can crack this case...

Maybe I'm mistaken, but that's his grey slacks. No water in that tub. Very odd. Not everyone is aware of the old Roman practice of getting in a warm bath and bleeding out. And men usually choose a gun or hanging. Women are more likely to slash their wrists or take pills. And if you know enough to bleed out in a warm bath, you usually know enough to slit lines longitudinally, up and down the armin the direction of the veins, not across them. No autopsy, no tox screen? This was bungled from the get go. Maybe because of the motel, a hooker flop, if that's true. These fools just decided what it was before they looked. Now it's CYA time.

Dredd, 142, no water

Robert, 143, taking the murder weapon would kind of rule out suicide. What would need to be done is to exhume the body and perform an autopsy and that is possible only with a court order and the permission of next of kin, and an autopsy should have been done in this case.

OT alert!

Yesterday, during a heated and OT discussion, I challenged somebody who had made an anti-semitic remark, and I also challenged somebody else who had called it anti-semitic. In doing so, I unwittingly offended people. Brad has explained to me [privately] the error I made there; I had not fully understood one of the posts to which I was responding.

Now, sadder but wiser, I must go OT again. To Ilene and to Adam and to Brad and anyone else who was offended by my previous post, I apologize; please understand that my comment was written in ignorance and not in malice. I never wish to offend anyone, and certainly not my friends and fellow-posters here.

I didn't want to go OT again in this excellent thread, but now that I understand what I have done wrong, I cannot simply leave it that way.

We now return to your regularly scheduled thread.

And strangling would be quite apparent to even a rookie. If you are dead and someone cuts you open a trained investigator should be able to spot that. No heartbeat, no blood being pumped, you don't bleed out that quick and at a certain point gravity takes over, unless the cuts are on the lowest part of the body, blood will just sit there in the body. This was one of those cases that got written up as what it looked like so they could all go out and have a beer. Exhumation and Autopsy may provide answers.

Yes, we had the Protocols of Elders of Zion here yesterday. Not you WP. A totally debunked piece of propaganda but great reading if you are convinced that the UN will occupy this country and enforce a new world order with black helicopters. Shit! I wish they would!

There is an interesting discussion of suicide methods and what to look for when investigating them (link here).

Notice how the slashing method is mentioned way down and is a rare method. It also mentions hesitation marks most often observed in slashing suicide, which were not found in this case.

Also it mentions how difficult it is to do it that way. In another place it mentions how some subconscious movements take place and the body can move a long way ... even after death.

Nunya #151 You mean there was no water in the bath tub ... it was half full of blood?

Another interesting discussion of suicide indicates that "you should treat all apparent suicides as homicides at first" (italics in original) (link here).

What is interesting about this link is that it is part of an educational process at a university.

It would seem that the police officer (Ms. Floyd) who did the initial investigation would have known of these investigative norms, and probably teaches these norms at her new job.

Why was the Lemme crime scene not treated like a murder investigation first as is normal?

Furthermore, the article goes on to say about suicide notes:

"With suicides, you may or may not find a note left behind for loved ones, but if you do, you should treat it as a questioned document" (bold and italics added).

The document was assumed to be unquestionably factual in the Lemme case! Bad technique.

Doesn't the fact that non-normal techniques were used in the Lemme case support our suspicion?

With all the interest in this story and the many new posters I see here it seems like a good time to remind everyone that it costs money to keep Brad going in his awesome work. Please donate (a little or a lot) today.

Casolaro shared information with many reporters around the world and interviewed numerous CIA/DIA/DEA/NSA operatives in his quest for the truth. He called me one evening and sounded very excited. He said that he was going to meet a source at the Sheraton Inn in Martinsburg, West Virginia. He claimed that the source was very close to Senator Byrd, the patron of the CIA. He announced that this source was going to "give me [the solution to] the Inslaw case on a silver platter".

Two days later I received a call from a mutual friend who was crying. She told me she had just talked with the owners of the Inslaw Corporation, Bill and Nancy Hamilton. They were in shock and told her that Danny Casolaro had been found dead in his room at the Sheraton Inn. His naked body was found in a bathtub filled with bloody water. Both wrists had been slashed to the bone numerous times, drugs were found in his body, a 'suicide' note allegedly written in his own handwriting was found nearby. His clothes were found neatly folded on the bed. All of his countless files and reporter's notes were missing. No files or paperwork was found in his car. His body was embalmed before his family was notified as though someone was in a hurry to cover up a murder eventually labeled a suicide.

No water at all. What looks like water to you are his grey slacks. Look closely. Also notice how the blood streaks down. No water washing it around. Sit in a bathtub and see how much the water will move with your slightest movement. He did not run himself a bath and slash open his veins. There was no water in that tub that I can see. Amd those are the worst damn crime scene photos I have ever seen. That camera is for auto accidents, not forensic work. Total hacks.

You know, it's the MO that really strikes me here. The call about meeting the source at a motel. The neatly folded clothes. The suicide note left nearby (wanna bet this was at the motel room's desk, just like Lemme's?). The water in the tub, the method itself --- although apparently Casolaro had some hesitation marks, unlike Lemme.

They seem to have refined their technique a bit --- my guess would be they compress the carotid (your neck bruise) and render the victim unconscious, then do the arm slash themselves so as to not make a mess of it. That would explain why the belt is on the floor beyond the left arm, when it would have had to be taken off after the slash by the victim's right hand --- awkward to do when you are bleeding to death, and the belt would get wet even if the victim did toss it past the left arm and out onto the bath mat. Far likelier the belt would stay in the tub... who's gonna need it after this is over?

About the note(s) - specifically the underlining. All they had to tell the vic is that it would be quick and relatively painless, like getting really sleepy and not waking up, and that if he doesn't write the note his whole family will be killed. Two things jump out here - lack of personal details in the note, and lack of any detail in the "reason given." Most non-terminally-ill suicides explain more. Anybody ever see a copy of the Casolaro note to compare the elements of the "legend?"

You're right, no water. Good call. It still reeks.

That's not blood, Dredd. There isn't that much blood in the human body. It's his grey slacks. Like I said, those photos are crap. That was a camera that you would use to document auto accidents. Low budget police force. Crime scene photos require a bit more expertise and equipment. Digital cameras are getiing better all the time but in 2003 they were just barely breaking into the 5 megapixel range. Should have been still film and video documentation.

Well, Casolaro, if the C.I.A. is involved with this one (sure sounds like the same M.O.), that would explain why the Valdosta Police Chief would have shut down the second investigation (the one he began in December). Somebody shows up at the station, flashes C.I.A. credentials, and says, "Don't go any further with the Lemme thing. We mean business here." That lends the case a patina of
"national security."

What's really strange about the police chief's actions is that he claimed he cut the reinvestigation off after speaking to someone at the Florida D.O.T. That's weird, because he's basically throwing the blame on the primary suspects! If somebody at the D.O.T. had talked him off the case, presumably that person have said, "Now don't tell anyone we talked. Find another excuse for cutting off the investigation."

The C.I.A. angle makes more sense, really, because there's no reason for a police chief in Georgia to feel obligated to an out-of-state agency. It's harder to say no to a C.I.A. operative.

Whatever the truth is, for a second investigation of a suspicious death to be abruptly terminated without sufficient reason is not acceptable in a free society. Congress has to take over here, and they won't do anything unless we force them to, out of "courtesy" to a fellow member.

OT but not really. Try googling Steve Kangas.

in comment #163, Robert Lockwood Mills wrote:

Whatever the truth is, for a second investigation of a suspicious death to be abruptly terminated without sufficient reason is not acceptable in a free society.

So... in what kind of a society is it acceptable? And what does that tell us?

COMMENT #137 [link]
...Kryten42 said on 3/9/2005 @ 7:04am PT...

Kryten Assinine Statement: "Ahhh... But that is not nearly as hysterical as you following an illegally elected President..."

The Truth: President Bush was elected by the American public in 2000 because we were tired of being led by a president that was an embarrassment to the nation. He was reelected because the people were tired of the same old lies and class warfare tactics being spun by the Democrats. Clintoon didn't even respond to the terrorist attacks at the WTC, the embassy in Africa, and the U.S.S. Cole. Thanks to Clintoon, the Chinese have more modern nuclear payloads for their ICBMs and his foreign policies with regards to North Korea have resulted in the problems that we're having today.

Kryten Assinine Statement: "[President Bush] is a coward and went AWOL..."

The Truth: Oh please! Try to catch up on your reading and quit relying upon old, disproved propaganda. Oh, and where was your precious little warrior, Clinton, during the Vietnam conflict? His cowardly ass was over in England, protesting against his own country. I'll bet you're one of the dumbshits that still believe the bullshit documents that were supposed to have been printed back in the 70s and were actually done on a computer using MS Word. Come on, you can admit it... : )

Oh, and while were on the subject of military service...how come Kerry won't release all of his military records. How come he won't sign a DD Form 180? Bush has. How does Kerry get discharged from the military service in 1972-3 and his publicly posted DD Form 214 shows a discharge date of 1978? A inquiring military veteran with twenty years of service to this great nation wants to know. : )

Kryten Assinine Statement: "A president that is bankrupting the nation."

The Truth: Protecting the country from terrorists is expensive. We didn't start it but we'll damn sure end it. By the way, have ya noticed the beginnings of a movement towards democracy in a lot of the other middle eastern countries over there? Gee, kind of a good thing, right? I mean, geeeez, who could be against people (Arab women) being able to vote for the first time in their lives.

Kryten Assinine Statement: "Do you even have a clue what is happening right under your nose? America will be in recession within a year..."

The Truth: Aw, come on! Geeezus! You guys were crying about a coming recession during the first term. No matter how many times you repeat a lie, Herr Goebbels, it ain't gonna come true and only sheeple, like you, will believe them anyways.

Kryten Assinine Statement: Japan is already talking to China about selling it's share of the US debt, if that happens, then China will own a big chunk of the USA! All is has to do then is threaten to sell a tiny part of it in Euros, and it will then cost you $10 to buy an apple!"

The Truth: Wow! Where do you get this crap?

I missed this post. So she did get some actual degrees. But what do they say, "Those who can't, teach?"

"http://www.valdostatech.edu/news/index.asp

"Shannon Floyd New Law Instructor

Shannon Floyd joins the faculty of Valdosta Technical College as the Law Enforcement Instructor. She will teach in the new Criminal Justice program that began January 6, 2005.
She holds a Master of Public Administration degree and a Bachelor of Arts in Criminal Justice degree, both from Valdosta State University. Floyd taught as an adjunct professor in Criminal Justice for Valdosta State from 2003-2004. While at the university as a student, she worked for the VSU Department of Public Safety.
Her professional experience includes work with the City of Valdosta Police Department as a forensic specialist, firearm examiner, detective and crime scene technician as well as patrolman. She has also worked as a private investigator and held an internship with the Georgia Bureau of Investigation.
Floyd holds certifications as an Identification Technician, the Basic Peace Officer Certification, Identification of Marijuana by Microscope Certification and a Smith & Wesson Armorers Certification. She is the Membership Committee Chair for the South Georgia Chapter of the Police Benevolent Association of Georgia, Inc. and a member of the Peace Officers Association of Georgia. She published an article, “Why Education is Important” in the Georgia Troopers’ News Journal in the Spring/Summer 1995 edition."

There's a picture of her on this page as well."

Hello everyone, this is my first post here.

Just throwing in my two-cents' worth of speculation about a couple of the Lemme crime scene observations...

Regarding Mr. Lemme's watch, I am presuming the timepiece is analog and battery powered. If the watch was not damaged (it looks intact to me) or battery didn't "die" coincidentally, a probable way the displayed time would have frozen was that the stem was pulled out (as one does when they intend to set the time).

Knowing his demise was imminent, perhaps Mr. Lemme intentionally stopped the watch in order to provide another "timestamp" (as on the supposed suicide note) clue. Pulling the stem would only take a moment and could easily go unnoticed by others in the hotel room. Being that Mr. Lemme was an investigator, it seems he had an appreciation of the importance (and a habit) of documenting time.

Near the sink I saw a round, seven-day medicine/vitamin pill holder. Did investigators determine the holder's contents? Why would a suicidal person even care about taking vitamins or medicine on a trip if they were about to end their own life? Looking on the flip-side of the coin, if Mr. Lemme consumed certain drugs (prescription or otherwise), they could have contributed to suicidal urges. Thus, the original conclusions could have been reinforced. It seems to me that the fact he had this pill holder should have thrown up a red flag that would prompt an autopsy. An autopsy was a vital step that could have determined if Mr. Lemme ingested any vitamins or medicine around the time of his death.

There are just so many little things about this case that don't fit together. The crime scene just looks too orderly and arranged. Why would a suicidal person go to the extent of neatly placing their personal items near the the sink? Rather, it appears to me that Mr. Lemme had his belongings situated as he prepared for work.

Did anyone ask Mr. Lemme's wife if he usually shaved with a double-edge razor? I didn't see a razor in the crime scene photos, just the one blade. Are there any records that he may have purchased the double-edge blades? Where is the rest of the blades? They aren't sold one at a time! This evidence could reinforce the assertion that he had the intention of killing himself.

Hope my ramblings make a valid point or two...

Brad, great job! Keep up the good work! Please don't let this story fade away.

When you check in, hotels typically ask to see the card that has the number and name that were given when the reservation was made.

Supposedly Lemme made a call from a payphone an hour and 15 minutes away from the hotel, yet he signed a receipt 40 minutes later AT the hotel on the same date. That means either the signature is fake and the person had his credit card... the witness who saw him at the payphone was mistaken and he actually called from somewhere else...or somebody at the hotel has been fooling around with the date/time stamp.

Mrs. Lemme would have the credit card bill that has the time and date for when the card was actually charged for the room. The bank company would have those records too.

Has anyone tried the route and actually clocked how long it would take at that time of morning to get from the payphone to the hotel? Phone records made to his company on that day should be able to pinpoint exact time and number from which the call was made to his boss.

Has anyone checked to see who owns that particular hotel in Valdosta? I'd run a background check on the managers AND owners, check for connections.

Is there any valid reason for him to be in Georgia - besides the fact that an alleged suicide would not undergo a mandatory autopsy? I know!! The "bruise" was actually a hickey, an autopsy would have shown sexual activity with another woman (or man?). He drove to GA and killed himself knowing their antiquidated CSI would protect his sexual deviations!!.... hey, makes as much sense as the official story.

Snoopy #168, and everybody else - Good questions and good points y'all. This isn't going to go away, we won't let it.

It's nice to have so many fresh and highly functional brains to pick on such important topics.

Brad - Any really serious interest yet from anyone in msm? Does it look like anyone might actually run with this story and stay on it until it's over?

Are you and Clint Curtis doin alright?

This has got to be wearing y'all out.

KestrelBrighteyes, post 169,

Where did you get your specific info on the time and distance that Mr. Lemme was from the hotel when the call was placed for a reservation?

If Lemme had traced "it" all the way to the "top" - then the "top" may be the top of the FDOT. Why does the FDOT have the authority to shut down the investigation of the death of Mr. Lemme? Why did Mr. Henry Yee get off so easily? Maybe far more fraud has taken place at the FDOT than what has been found to date. The FDOT needs a light shining in every corner of its operations - particularly pertaining to the activities of the fraud already discovered, potential UNDISCOVERED fraud, and the FDOT's involvement in the investigation of Mr. Lemme's death. It should not be within FDOT's jurisdiction to shut down a murder investigation, whether of one of their employees, or not.

Good old Lt. Columbo would look for the person who had the motive, opportunity, and means to stage this "suicide." Considering the case he was working on, his "all the way to the top" comment, and the interstate complications, the "extreme prejudice" execution has to have come from the very top of the US government. Now then, let's see... Sorry, I simply can't buy that this was just a "third-rate suicide."

Somebody has got to put the Valdosta Police Chief on the spot. I leave it to the Constitutional lawyers to decide whose responsibility it is.

This man has now initiated his third investigation of a suspicious death. The first ended in a finding of suicide, which didn't conform to the evidence or the apparent state of mind of the decedent. The second investigation, which should have redeemed the first, ended because somebody in an out-of-state transportation agency said, "Please end it," or words to that effect.

That agency just happens to have been the focus of an investigation the decedent had said was about to result in a major political scandal.

Question...How will the third investigation conclude? Without a boost from higher up, I suspect in the same trash can the White House investigation of the Valerie Plame leak fell into.

Could the missing detective now be at Valdosta Technical College? "New Law Instructor Shannon Floyd joins the faculty of Valdosta Technical College as the Law Enforcement Instructor" - sfloyd@valdostatech.edu

Thanks for the great reporting. I'm not going to be able to sleep for a while, but thanks.

T

Benjaminno #145 - Sorry, I posted before reading all the posts. Won't do so again.

Benjamin075 #172 -

It's my understanding that the phone call from the payphone at highway 19 and Interstate 10 was made, according to witnesses, to Lemme's boss, to say he would be late to work that day. Lemme's wife also stated in her affidavit what time Lemme's boss said he called in - it was mentioned in the message on her answering machine.

That reminds me - does anyone know if the payphone witness was mentioned in the original police report? I don't remember where that came from.

The reservation for the hotel room was made the day before, on the 29th, supposedly by Lemme - no idea from where the call for that was made.

I got my information both from American Woman's post #103, and from Brad's original lead-off article in this thread.

My reason for questioning the actual travel time vs the time given by mapquest is that mapquest uses estimates that I've found are not always accurate (that, or I drive a lot faster than whomever comes up with those travel times)

First, Great work Brad and all who support him!

This is my first post here, but I have emailed Brad some info previously. I decided to do some checking into Detective Shannon Floyd. It does seem to me that she is the same Floyed who is now teaching at Valdosta Technical College (in Georgia). from her bio there:

Floyd taught as an adjunct professor in Criminal Justice for Valdosta State from 2003-2004. While at the university as a student, she worked for the VSU Department of Public Safety."
Her professional experience includes work with the City of Valdosta Police Department as a forensic specialist, firearm examiner, detective and crime scene technician as well as patrolman.

It appears she was still a Detective until at least December 2004, and was hired to teach the program around that time.

VALDOSTA - Eight local law enforcement officials met at Valdosta Technical College recently to discuss the beginning of a new program.

The college's new Law Enforcement Program kicks off in January. Class graduates will provide a qualified pool of potential employees for the agencies.

Joseph Dukes of the Lowndes County Sheriff's Office; Deputy Warden Ted Philbin and Warden Donald Barrow, both of the Valdosta State Prison; Major Audie Rowe, assistant chief of the Adel Police Department; Bruce Powers, director of security at South Georgia Medical Center; Lt. Terry Arnold, Investigator and Capt. Colin Millison, chief deputy, both of the Cook County Sheriff’s Office; and Chief Frank Simons of the Valdosta Police Department attended the lunch meeting, along with several Valdosta Tech administrators.

Law Enforcement Program Coordinator Shannon Floyd was recently hired to teach the program. She brings a wealth of experience in law enforcement from her jobs with the Valdosta Police Department.

Over the past nine years, she has served in several positions including patrol officer, detective, crime scene technician, firearm examiner and forensic specialist.

Floyd has also taught criminal justice at Valdosta State University.

Valdosta Daily Times: "Law Enforcement officials gather at Valdosta Tech"

She also received a Marriage proposal at about the same time (busy girl!)
Valdosta Daily Times: "Detective pops the question"

In any case, someone with her experience (9 years) and qualifications (some difficult to obtain) does *NOT* do such a sloppy job as was apparently done in the Lemme investigation. It is obvious from the photographs and information provided, that at the very least, she should have asked MANY more questions! The question is of course, why didn't she do her job properly? Alternatively, If she did do her job properly, who is covering up the investigation. and why?

It is obvious from this news report that she is quite capable as an investigator:
Valdosta Daily Times: "Man convicted in drive by shootings"

Also, I came across this whilst searching for info on her. I cannot say if it is the same woman, but the photo's have some similarities. The difference is that this Shannon Floyd appears to live in Portland, Oregon. If it is her, I don't know what to make of it. If you feel this is a red herring, please disregard it. It's just that I found the similarities in the two pictures striking (even though they appear to be completely different women judging by their activities).
http://www.alternativesm...gazine.com/24/floyd.html

Thanks again Brad and all! Please keep up the good work, and PLEASE stay safe! This is *NOT* a game to some people.

Lemme was probably right handed if he cut the left elbow. Was he? The pen on the desk looks oddly placed for a righty.

Blood is soaked *up* the shirt from the elbow. Could the shirt could have been wet?

I can (unfortunately) say that when you are choked by someones hands, bruise marks in the form of fingers are very clear. Whatever pressure was used on the neck would show I think.

What's with the wash cloth?

Perhaps some CIA people who resigned or were forced out because they wouldn't go along with the corrupt Bush Administration could be approached to investigate this. Even they would have to be careful about whom they trust - more than half the Democratic Party is involved with, and as corrupt as, the Repubs. in power. Nothing is as it appears to be. If anyone asks to meet you in the middle of nowhere, or even the downtown Hilton - REFUSE. Keep everything out in the open, in public, in the light.

Wow! More excellent work by Brad and a great thread generated by it. Lots of new commentors. How many hits did you get on this one Brad? Hopefully, a few donations for your efforts (my second to Cheryl in #157).

A few comments:
--The troll on this thread has to be the lamest yet to pass through this blog. As Nunya points out in #141, this troll doesn't even pick up on the fact that "psychic investigator" was used as a satirical/mocking term to point out his (her, its?) own earlier ignorance about what Lemme's investigation was all about. Please, do us a favor and don't waste anymore of our (or your) time on this blog.

--To Miss Persistent reg. #134- maybe I'm misunderstanding you in your reference to "autopsy notes". Of course you know that there was no autopsy.

--To Robert Lockwood Mills reg. #133- It doesn't make sense that Lemme would have voluntarily spent the night at this motel on the night of 6/30 without notifying his wife and supervisor on 6/30. Both had already reported him missing by this time. I seems reasonable that the dates/times on the receipts may have been correct and that Lemme was already dead by the time he was reported missing. It's certainly possible that , if check-out did occur in the AM of 6/30 and the room was then cleaned, Lemme could have been smuggled into the room (dead or alive), "suicided" and then not discovered until 7/1. I would presume that if no one else officially checked into the room on 6/30, there would have been no reason for cleaning personnel or others to enter it until the events of 7/1. Also, could Lemme have somehow managed to stop his watch at "12:34 on June 30th" as a signal of the approximate time he was suicided? Of course, all of this leaves unexplained why anyone planning to suicide him would have had him apparently checked into a motel on the night of 6/29-6/30 when his wife could state that he was home that night and said goodbye to her in person on the morning of 6/30. So many inconsistencies it leaves your head spinning, yet, this was treated as a cut and dried (no pun intended) suicide by the Valdosta Police!!???

--To Nunya reg. #150- Don't you think this goes way beyond CYA by the Valdosta police?

Finally, since the American MSM, political system and law enforcement agencies (at least nationally and, in many places, locally) seem so compromised (corrupted?), perhaps the BBC or Canadian press might be looked to to run with this story. Just a thought.

Fred, you're right. We do need both timelines. But what we really need is other evidence that the receipt dates are incorrect.

Brad, I got the 18:45 checkin time from Leon County narrative. Officer reports telecon with Valdosta investigator, Craig Spencer. "Investigator Spencer stated that Mr. Lemme checked into a local hotel .... at 1845 hours on 30 June 03."

Could be that Spencer was just going from the dated 06/29 receipt? Hard to say.

What a great group of posters ! Articulate and intelligent. I have read everything, good and bad on Bush history having lived under his "regime" in Texas.

I have to ask, "how much is enough?" Power, money, control. Where does it stop?
We all have to live in this world, what are we leaving for those we love? Bleeding liberal? Maybe. But surely Republicans have children who need clean air, protected, clean food.

I know good people who question the path this administration is leading. But many are concerned when the media, the banks, the Stock Market are all controlled by the same few. How do those who question be allowed to question?
Since when is questioning, thinking and compromise not allowed?

How many must die before the courageous stand up and say ENOUGH ?

Where's the blood? If he slit his wrists, there should be a lot more blood. If his wrists were slit after his heart stopped beating, there would be about as much as is shown in those pics.

You need to contact a professional graphoanalyst. As an amateur, and very rusty, I can still tell you that note wasn’t written by a depressed person. The writing was upbeat and positive. Note the consistent forward slant; the up-turn of the t-crosses; the consistent upbeat of each word and sentence. Someone needs to look very closely at each letter with some prior examples of his writing. It would be very easy to give an overall look of the same writing, as there is nothing peculiar about his (or this example), but there are always little “ticks” that would prove if this was his with a much closer examination by a professional.

Also, how does he usually sign off to his wife and family? That would not be absent in such a note. If written by someone else, they were being careful not to expose that lack of knowledge.

Also, where was that blade in relationship to his body? was it really by his elbow? Those stains don’t look consistent with something that has been used for cutting. Why does it lie so cleanly on the tub side with no other stains around it? Wouldn’t his hand be bloody and left smears with the blade? Are there photo’s of his hands to confirm this?

Try it with some fresh meat. There would be a swiping stain. That blade looks like it might have been wiped and blood blotted on it … what do you think? What is that black thing covering his lap? And what is that white clothe, or what, Below that? That’s an old style razorblade … all his stuff laid out so neatly on the counter … where’s his razor? Did he use that type of razor?

That neck bruise is consistant with someone who'd been in a choke lock ... subdued?

The more I look at those pix’s, the more questions come up …. It’s strange how many people who’ve gotten under the CIA’s rug have ended up lately, so …. Depressed??

Ev

To Bejammin075 (#172) and KBE (#178)-

The original article in Insider-Magazine by John Caylor (linked by Brad in this story) has the "Leon County Sheriff's Office- Supplemental/Continuation" statement which includes, under "Additional Information", the following: "Mr. Clift learned the call that Mr. Lemme made came from 997-3845. Deputy Wilson determined the number was made from a pay phone at 'Pay Fast Track' at Highway 19 and Interstate 10, in Jefferson County." There was no eyewitness to the phone call. Hope that clears up that confusion.

WHY IS THE RAZOR BLADE NOT SURROUNDED WITH BLOODY FINGERPRINTS? I HOPE YOUR BLOG WILL GET JUSTICE FOR THE LEMME FAMILY.

did anyone check the dates and times with the CC Co's timestamps? There's the proof. The receipt no. needs to be checked with the before and after receipts ... are they also misdated? Why would the hotel people lie? What, and who are they covering? Did they really say this was in errror? That needs to be confirmed.

Maybe a psychiatrist or other expert on the usual behavior of depressed people could weigh in here.

A man with an apparent happy marriage, looking forward to his daughter's wedding, on the verge of a major breakthrough in his career as an investigative reporter, and one who cares enough about his job to call his boss from a highway pay phone to say he'll be late, suddenly goes off and kills himself? How many suicides fit that profile?

The police chief isn't talking. The detective has changed jobs and isn't talking. Meanwhile a second investigation, initiated because the first had been inadequate, was aborted after a conversation with a (presumably) disinterested third party from out of state. Have such circumstances ever existed previously, anywhere?

Steve #187 - Thanks for clearing that up, for some reason I thought there was a witness..so much information to absorb here.

For anyone else who missed the link (as I did) it's here:

Insider magazine - Unrestricted Warfare

There is a LOT of information, especially down towards the bottom after the hotel receipts.

Wow..there's even more to this than I realized. The FDOT is definitely in this soooo deep.

Ray Lemme was scheduled to meet with someone from the FDOT General Counsel's office at 1:30 on the day he went missing. Has anyone contacted that attorney to find out what the meeting was about, and if it was related?

It's my understanding that the Democrats control the Georgia's Legislature. Can't you contact some friendlies in Atlanta to push this story?

Also is Mrs. Lemme herself pushing this investigation at the highest level she can? I wouldn't blame her for being frightened, however.

Also, to your knowledge is the FBI still investigating Curtis's allegations?

Great Sherlock job!

His watch being stopped at 12:34 is way too odd of to write off as merely an accident of nature.

There would be two chances out of 1760 of this combination of four digits happening by accident. A clock would stop on this time with about 0.1% chance.

Other than that particular time, perhaps other number strings like 11:11 or 3:21 might stand out, but these wouldn't have the same degree of thought provoking, "Gee, that's really odd...12:34. Imagine that..."

Interpreting this as meant to signal this was a set up seems like a reasonable hunch worth following.

I sure hope the police stay on this one until they turn up the killer(s).

The most important thing, is to prove the motive.
This does seem to be a Pandora's Box, and is probably connected to a huge web that would bring the crime family down. They murder these people all the time, but this one seems to especially hold a key.

And the whole operation seems sloppy. As if it is tempting fate. If anyone is really attemting to crack this case, we certainly aren't going to know who.

My goodness but everyone is sooo good. So many excellent points!!! I'm flying through this stuff and apologize in advance if I'm being stupid...but...

Steve #181: We would love to see the autopsy report...and we know there isn't one. I would hope they could exhume and reinvestigate.

Often the ME (or if a coroner it could just be an elected official) will visit the crime scene as well. He/she makes the determination and would *have* signed the certificate. Get a hold of the ME/C file.

I'm curious about the family. If suicide, no life insurance?

Still more funny about the pictures. If you look at the picture showing the sink objects at a distance, the objects look like they are place differently than in the close up. Especially the comb. Could be my eyes. Did the police tamper?

Also, the towel looking like it was placed there (as in prior to a shower) has not soaked up any of the blood that is at the base of the tub.

Snoopy #168, what might be the message Lemme was trying to leave by writing the note at 8.10 and stopping the watch at 12:34

Everett #184, right - the fingerprints had to be wiped off the blade - using the cloth?

Could the hotel have drawn up the paper work in advance? Could a phone call have been placed by someone else to the hotel to ask them to draw up the paperwork?

I think it is higher than FDOT. And when Lemme says Curtis would be "satisfied" - would that indicate satisfied about Feeney, YEI, FDOT? More?

Onward!

Teresa # 193:

Motive: Money. Perhaps Feeney, YEI, and folks at FDOT are funnelling millions of dollars out of various contracts. They already found hundreds of thousands of dollars in "questionable" transactions. I doubt that $$ was ALL of the stolen money.

Sloppy operation? No one has been charged with murder, and I haven't heard of any specific suspects. If it was murder, the murderer is currently getting away with it.

Bejammino #195

The murderer is 'currently' getting away with it. But the sloppiness is in the execution of the crime. If we pajama wearing sleuths can collect so much evidence, the what about the pros?
The MO so blatantly doesn't fit Lemme, a meticulous detail oriented professional.

I guess no one really cares as the lockdown on justice seems so complete.
Or maybe all crimes leave behind a thousand clues.

And another thing... the first thing that crossed my mind when I looked at the "suicide note" was that a woman wrote it.

After doing further research on Mr. Lemme's death today, I discovered the answers to some of the questions being asked. For every question answered, it seems like new ones arise.

First, about the pill holder on the sink of the Knight's Inn hotel room. Based on Mrs. Lemme's sworn testimony, Mr. Lemme had a cardiac condition and took several medications. Thus, he needed to take his prescriptions often in order to LIVE. Why would a suicidal person take a 7-day supply of heart medication on a one-way trip when it is alleged he intended to take his own life? As with most of the cover-story, this just doesn't make sense.

Regarding the motive of Mr. Lemme's murder, it's pretty obvious when you take Chinese espionage and cover-ups by American politicians into account. This is all about people we entrust selling us out and American technology being transferred to China. My OPINION is that the Chinese carried out the hit and that high-ranking American politicians made their subordinates turn a blind eye to the whole matter. Until now, the investigation into Mr. Lemme's murder has been kept under a local jurisdiction intentionally. I'm not an attorney, but this seems like an interstate case that should be handled by the FBI. There would be a much better chance of solving the case, unless Bush or Feeney intervene there too.

Litigation and fines against YEI are ongoing. Testimony by two whistleblowers initiated the investigations were crucial to uncovering the truth. The more time passes, the more we see their testimony is accurate. Mr. Lemme got involved because the Florida DOT assigned him to check into the overbilling accusations. His job cost him his life.

The sad truth is that the FDOT overbilling was just one facet of the criminal activity that these thugs perpetrated. If you ever lose sight of what this is all about, just re-read the top of this page. You can also refer to another excellent resource: Insider Magazine has official documents regarding the YEI/Feeney fiasco at this link

http://www.insider-magaz...unrestricted_warfare.htm

When you hear names like Bush and Feeney mentioned frequently in this matter, its not hard to understand what Mr. Lemme meant when he said this matter goes "all the way to the top". We must press to have the truth about Mr. Lemme's death told. He deserves that much and more. The traitors and spies who are undermining our way of life must be exposed and punished.

The more I think about it the more I know that is the Lowndes County Coroner needs to lose his job.

It is the full responsibility of the ME/C to investigate any death that occurs in remarkable situations (e.g., outside the home, no one around, in the street, etc.), and it is his or her sole responsibility to make the final determination as to cause of death (manner of death) and report *any* contributing factors or even just coincident factors.

The ME/C will also have a case file (however flimsy) that needs to be obtained. It's his/her ass right here right now.

Phone: (229) 242-3385.

Snoopy, if he didn't want his wife to be suspicious he would have taken the whole pill holder. I wonder how full it was? (Mind you I haven't read everything yet.)

I agree about the Chinese possibly giving the orders, it passed (right through) my mind earlier. YEI is the benefactor of the overbilling, how might they have benefited from the espionage? And, how can Feeney make money through YEI or was it all in exchange for the vote rigging prototype?

If we are right, and Ray Lemme didn't kill himself, the perpetrators are likely reading this blog and shaking in their boots.

If there was foul play, there must be *SO* many people that have some insider knowledge of what has gone on: management at FDOT, perhaps some YEI management (who secured questionable, big fat contracts from FDOT), and others...

It may take some time, but in this type of case, with various people involved, invariably *one* of them confesses what she/he knows. Let's hope that is sooner rather than later.
-----

Additionally, either the police on the case were either so entirely inept in crime-scene reporting as to be half-blind, or (scary, but less likely) they are involved in covering up the facts.

If they are only guilty of being inept, the public attention that has been given to this case would NORMALLY be a huge embarassment to a police force, and MUST precipipate a full and immediate public admission of their mistakes, apology to the Lemme family, and full disclosure of *EVERYTHING* else they have on this case.

But so far, the police are still keeping their lips shut??? What is up with that???

Lemme's boss, Robert Clift, signed an affidavit to the effect that Lemme called and said he'd be in late. This was on 6/30/03, in the early morning.
Supposedly Lemme had an appointment that afternoon at 1:30, which Clift knew about.

Suddenly Lemme detours to Valdosta, GA., a town 80 miles from Tallahassee with no identifiable connection to anything Lemme was doing. The motel records in Valdosta indicate that Lemme checked in on 6/29 and checked out on 6/30, yet Lemme's wife said he left home (in Tallahassee) on the morning of 6/30.

Assuming the theory is correct that the motel's time machine was a day off, and that Lemme checked into the motel on the evening of 6/30, that still doesn't explain what he was doing between the early morning of 6/30, when he called his boss, and midday of 7/1, when his body was found...after he had supposedly checked out of the motel.

It's quite clear the Valdosta P.D. not only did a poor job forensically, but mad no effort to establish a timeline for Lemme's last 48 hours on earth. Evidently having recognized this, they reopened the case in December, 2004...but closed it up again after intervention by someone at the Florida D.O.T. My God, what a mess!

Has anyone asked Mr. Clift whether he spoke to the people Lemme was supposed to have met on the afternoon of 6/30? Could there be some link between that abortive meeting and the request by the D.O.T. to stop the second investigation?

-----IMPORTANT------IMPORTANT--------

Ray's watch was placed on the counter by the sink and it had "stopped" running. In the photo there seems to be a nice watch lying on the counter.

Most nice watches are just plain old Water Resistant and not Water Proof. Generally speaking only divers watches are totally WaterProof to 125 ft. or more. So if Ray was placed in a bath tub full of water with his arms submerged for 1/2 hour … an hour or so…waters going to enter that watch and "stop it".

The time and date stamp on the watch may be the exact time of death.

If Ray was dead obviously he couldn't place the watch on the counter …. someone else did it for him.

The watch should show signs of internal corrosion and may still contain water from the bathtub. The police should have this watch in the evidence room or the family has it.

I have a question. Why did he pack all his stuff? Did his wife know he was going out of town when he left at 5:15 am 6/30 - was she trying to reach him to tell him about a sudden meeting that came up for 1:30 that day?

How was Raymond "informed" that something came up - as he said to his boss when he called at 6:15 am 6/30, just one hour after he left home?

Also, if my hunch is correct the watch would also contain Rays "own blood ".

Hi Miss Persistent...regarding #194, I believe the "suicide note" was either coerced or forged. Since I don't have enough samples of Mr. Lemme's writing to compare, I'll speculate the time (along with the text) was penned by him to intentionally show a discrepancy between the note and the time on his watch. His logic for writing it then stopping his watch may have been to illustrate that the note he was forced to write was a red herring. The time on the watch probably indicates when a critical part of the crime truly occured. Perhaps just before he was killed.

Here's a new question: was the time on the watch actually 12:34pm? Usually police reports use 24-hour (sometimes called military) time. Did the investigators bother to verify this fact? If the time was just after midnight, the hour on the report should be represented by 00. If it hasn't been tampered with, the watch should be examined to determine if the time indicated was just after noon or midnight. Since it had a date feature, moving the time forward past 12 o'clock will reveal whether it was set to am or pm.

My instincts tell me that the crime happened elsewhere and his body was brought to the hotel. I wish there was a hotel surveillance camera that would prove me wrong.

That darn pill holder stands out every time I view the bathroom photo. As does the neatness of the scene.

And, in order for this to work, he would have had to bring *all* of his evidence with him. You can bet he had documentation. But, if he'd left the evidence behind (at the office?), well then, a murder wouldn't really help. To bring the evidence with him would require some trust? Did anyone freeze his work files? Ostensibly, his investigation was work-related. Is the boss in on it?

I thought I read somewhere that there was an empty manilla folder found in the room also, but I'm not certain - somebody help me out here?

Good question Snoopy, I agree, the investigators would likely have written it in military time as a matter of habit. So, how does the story go if the time was time noon-ish?

The perpetrators would have "requested" he put 8:10 am on the note. Or, they'd have done it themselves (since there was no mention of daughter I'm inclined to think it was forged or coerced). Either way, why is that time is relatively important to their sequence? (I would doubt they would mess with the watch without messing with the note to make the two jive.)

Meet me at a rank motel in Valdosta, oh and bring all your files.

If there was an empty manila, then it's a decoy. Why take only the contents? And the manila would have prints.

KestrelBrighteyes #169 asked: "Has anyone tried the route and actually clocked how long it would take at that time of morning to get from the payphone to the hotel?"

Clint Curtis tried 2 different routes. His best: 1 hour 20 minutes.

KestrelBrighteyes #208:

Manilla folder listed as item #17 on Det. Floyd's Property Sheet here:

http://insider-magazine.com/ValdostaPD.htm

Excellent investigative reporting. I didn't read through all the comments, so please excuse me if I am repeating someone else's earlier observation. One item that went unmentioned in your report is the fact that althought there was a claim that the flash card failed, it's clear looking at the photographs that in most cases the flash seemed to work just fine. There is an obvious reflective glare consistent with a camera flash glare throughout. In fact, in one of the bathtub photos (the blood in the corner shot), you can see the reflection(s) of the camera flash bouncing off the shower wall(s). Just another piece for you I hope. Thanks and be careful.

The number of people committing "suicide" that were involved in investigations linked to government officials (and/or companies) are becoming more frequent.

Criminals expend a tremendous amount of effort covering up their tracks. Although it's quite obvious these immoral people will stop at nothing to ensure they don't get caught, my gut tells me they're scared. They're getting careless.

On the other hand, seeing those photos...god...he was someone's husband and father. I imagine he was a good man. A man with morals. I'd like to think he believed in the job he was doing - because it was the right thing to do.

There are people out there each and every day trying to do some good, to right a wrong, to change things for the better (and not in their own interest, I might add). They might be someone trying to rid his neighborhood of crime. They might be someone like Jeffrey Weigand, who took on the tobacco industry. And sometimes, sometimes they die. And sometimes the bad guys get caught.

And they don't have to carry a gun, or even be a big movie star, to be called HERO.

The ones who paid with their lives - their deaths should not be in vain.

Thank you.

Chameleon,

In this case the flash card refers to the flash memory card of a digital camera, not the flash lighting component. The flash not going off would have been a big clue to even a keystone cop like this woman. It still sounds like bullshit.

Wow! Go away for a few hours and look how long our thread has grown! I'll have to catch up, but first I want to introduce a digression which might seem to be OT but I'm pretty sure is connected somehow.

Lou Dobbs tonight did a follow-up report with Christine Romans about the sale of IBM to China, proprietary codes, sensitive military information and all (IBM has numerous military and defense contracts). Does this seem wildly, crazily skewed to you? It certainly did to Dobbs & co.

The connection I see is the obvious one: YEI is a software consulting firm owned by naturalized Chinese who employ an illegal Chinese national who steals missile chips and smuggles them to China. Tried and convicted, he receives only probation and a $100 fine.

Tom Feeney is closely connected to YEI, lobbies government contracts for them, is a close Bush family ally and most certainly knows what is going on here and why.

Two points: some huge money-making scheme is going down in partnership with China, I'm sure, and it's being slid by the American public with no trumpets blaring. So it must be something with really rotten consequences for us, the plebes of the country. Remember also that China is one of our greatest creditors and our trade deficit with her is staggering.

Lemme was on to something which, if made public, would disrupt this whatever-it-is and cost The schemers not only financially but also put paid to a grand coup of some sort. I'd bet anything that the goons that put Lemme in a head lock and murdered him either were Chinese or were paid by the YEI/Feeney/...cohort.

Snoopy #198 -

I believe we are on the same page with this. I hadn't read your post when I posted the above. It really stinks of American/Chinese collusion in something very bad, doesn't it?

Steve,

--To Nunya reg. #150- Don't you think this goes way beyond CYA by the Valdosta police?

Not necessarily. CYA could cover alot of ground. Never underestimate the power of incompetence and the motivation to cover it up. Despite what your parents taught you, never trust a cop. I don't even buy the crap about "the FDOT" told us to close the case.

You are absolutely right, # 166 Bucket Rider, Clintoon killed Lemme. No wonder he's getting away with it.

"The Truth: President Bush was elected by the American public in 2000 because we were tired of being led by a president that was an embarrassment to the nation. He was reelected because the people were tired of the same old lies and class warfare tactics being spun by the Democrats. Clintoon didn't even respond to the terrorist attacks at the WTC, the embassy in Africa, and the U.S.S. Cole. Thanks to Clintoon, the Chinese have more modern nuclear payloads for their ICBMs and his foreign policies with regards to North Korea have resulted in the problems that we're having today."

And you are a baby-killer, even though you were a REMF and probably killed more people with your friendly cooking fire.

"A inquiring military veteran with twenty years of service to this great nation wants to know. : )"

************************
The Bruised Neck: Explained
"The Magic Bruise Theory"
************************

We can see from the photos, that at one point after cutting his arm, there are hand prints up high in the shower. This indicates that he was standing up in the shower.

Is it possible that Raymond, obviously losing a lot of blood, got light headed, fell backward, and hit his neck/shoulder/side of head on the corner of the ledge of the tub?

Get in your tub, and see if it makes sense. I tried it, it's possible. Was their bruising on the right side of his head? We'll never know.

I don't know about all that, Fred. I don't think you can make too many assumptions from crappy crime scene photos of what might be a staged crime scene. Can you imagine why they never dusted for prints? Can you imagine how many different sets of prints they would get from a motel room, even if he had been all alone in there for the last week of his life? Lazy donut munchers.

Curtis obviously drives slower than I do. I have made the trip numerous times and my fastest time is about 45 minutes, but it's faster taking surface roads through Thomasville than taking the interstate for travel from Valdosta to downtown Tallahassee or vice versa. It would have been easy for Lemme to have checked in the night before, returned home to Tally, knowing that he'd be talking with his "source" in Valdosta the next morning (maybe he even left the "source" a room key), and then driven out really early the next morning after spending the night at home with his wife --- avoid heavy traffic that way. Calling his boss and taking his cardiac meds with him both suggest that he thought he'd be coming back.

Shannon seems to be a reasonably good person but not the most careful forensics person in the world. I would guess that she left because she didn't want to be around something this creepy anymore - it's easier on the conscience and safer for the family; I'd say best to leave her alone. Valdosta Tech doesn't pay all that well, but it's a lot safer than what seems to have been going on in the VPD - and this is by no means the first "weird" situation in Valdosta's PD - they've been having about one really weird incident every three or four years. There was the racism thing (heck, people had a public demonstration about that one), and before that there was at least one evidence-planting thing that was more or less hushed up. There's probably a lot more that someone who's well and truly Valdostan could tell you about. There are some excellent people living there, who believe in the US Constitution and all; maybe you can find one who will assist.

Hey, everyone who's been making a thing out of the "Knights Inn" - you DO recall what "Knights" were just a few short years ago in southern GA, I hope. It's very hard to get away from the past; hard for everyone. That's as may be for this particular investigation, but please keep in mind that no police department is perfect. This one has a lot of skeletons and might be subject to pressure more easily than some larger PD.

Finally, the Kangas thing (Nunya, I think, mentioned Steve K): I agree that his death was suspicious and that, at least before he stopped drinking, RMS had a terrible temper (and a foul mouth). But one need not implicate CIA or anybody hairier than one of the Scaife bodyguards in Kangas' bathroom shooting... about the only thing his method had in common with Lemme's was 1) the phone call and subsequent trip and 2) the presence of plumbing.

Granted there are a lot of people who also wind up mysteriously shooting themselves around this Administration, and there have always been a rather alarming number of small plane accidents taking out political figures, some of which were obvious assassinations, though not necessarily "ours," and others which may have been simply accidents: Francisco Sá Carneiro, Portuguese prime minister, in Dec 1980; Jaime Roldos Aguilera, President of Ecuador, in May 1981; General Omar Torrijos, leader of Panama, in July 1981; Samora Machel, Mozambique president, in Oct 1986; Arnold Raphel, U.S. Ambassador to Pakistan, in the same plane as Mohammed Zia ul-Haq, President of Pakistan, in Aug 1988 (explosive); Teresa Heinz' first senatorial husband (but that really was an accident) on April 4th 1991 and the next day Senator John Tower of Texas (that one is interesting, especially given *his* knowledge base); Cyprien Ntaryamira, president of Burundi in the same plane with Juvenal Habyarimana, president of Rwanda (bad idea, people!) - shot down on approach to Kigali, probably by one of their own, not us, Apr 6, 1994; Ron Brown, U.S. Secretary of Commerce, Apr 3, 1996 (sheesh! Beware the early April small plane!); JFK Jr, July 16, 1999 (probably an accident, conditions worsened on the flight); Salvator Socrates, Philippine governor, and Santiago Madrid, Philippine AF General, after their plane developed mechanical trouble, July 2, 2000; Thomas Allgood, Charles Yates, Mel Carnahan, Gary McPherson - all politicians, all in 2000 in small planes. Paul Wellstone, 2002. Nothing since then, except that Hugo Chavez (Venezuela) seems to think he's next on the menu --- as far as that goes, it's hard to say whether the US ambassadorial warnings to him were intended as friendly warnings about conditions within his own society or as intimidation.

I agree, it's great to see all these thoughtful people (well, minus our haggard Rider) keeping tabs on the Lemme aspect - by all accounts this was a very GOOD man, out there doing good in the world, a solid citizen. I hope Brad and Curtis can shake something loose out there - some principled person with an ironclad protection against retribution (perhaps a terminal case with no family or close friends?!). God bless, guys.

Ok, I think I have a new observation (I'm only up to #160 in reading!) Sorry for any past repeats.

THE razor blade is placed on the tub in the exact opposite angle than one would expect if one were cutting their left elbow with a blade held by the right hand!

This coincides the the pen being at the exact opposite angle as the blade but very weird angle for a righty (assuming he was righty because he cut the left elbow).

And while we're talking about weird angles, I suppose the 1st photo of the door that opens to the right is the same door as the one that opens to the left 2nd photo - but perhaps the door photo was printed out backwards?

RE: "12:34"

Once that you've decided on a killing
First you make a stone of your heart
And if you find that your hands are still willing
Then you can turn a murder into art

There really isn't any need for bloodshed
You just do it with a little more finesse
If you can slip a tablet into someone's coffee
Then it avoids an awful lot of mess

It's murder by numbers, one, two, three
It's as easy to learn as your ABC
Murder by numbers, one, two, three
It's as easy to learn as your ABC

Now if you have a taste for this experience
And you're flushed with your very first success
Then you must try a twosome or a threesome
And you'll find your conscience bothers you much less

Because murder is like anything you take to
It's a habit-forming need for more and more
You can bump off every member of your family
And anybody else you find a bore

Because it's murder by numbers, one, two, three
It's as easy to learn as your ABC
Murder by numbers, one, two, three
It's as easy to learn as your ABC

Now you can join the ranks of the illustrious
In history's great dark hall of fame
All our greatest killers were industrious
At least the ones that we all know by name

But you can reach the top of your profession
If you become the leader of the land
For murder is the sport of the elected
And you don't need to lift a finger of your hand

Because it's murder by numbers, one, two, three
It's as easy to learn as your ABC
Murder by numbers, one, two, three
It's as easy to learn as your A, B, C, D, E

According to the original police report the room was locked from the inside! The housekeeping ladies couldn't open the door. That's why they called the police. This is huge.

So what we are supposed to believe, is that Raymond Lemme did actually check out at 6:54am, on 7/1/03, kept a key, or left the door ajar with a towel or something while he checked out.

He then went back into the room, ,b>placed the "Do Not Distrub" sign on the door, took off his watch, folded his tie, hung up his shirt, placed the rest of his belongings neatly on the counter, etc... sat down, wrote the note at 8:10am, got in the tub, and killed himself.

THAT MAKES NO SENSE WHAT-SO-EVER. Why in the hell would he "check out" (prompting cleaning ladies to clean the room) and then THINK they cleaning ladies WOULD not come in? This was a man that paid close attention to DETAIL.

Everyone knows the cleaning ladies wouldn't pay attention to the "Do Not Disturb" sign if their isn't anyone CURRENTLY PAYING FOR THE ROOM!

My proof? The cleaning ladies DID NOT pay attention to the sign, they tried to enter as reported in the Police report.

This was a murder made to look like a suicide. Pure and simple.

Read Christopher Bollyn's posts from this link:

https://bradblog.com/archives/00001026.htm

"COMMENT #3 [link]
...Christopher Bollyn said on 12/20/2004 @ 11:13pm PT...

I have just returned from visiting some of the sites that the Clint Curtis affidavit points to.

The hotel room in Valdosta where Ray Lemme died was bizarre. It is the sleaziest hotel on the outskirts of town. There is no reason to think that Mr. Lemme would even want to stay there, much less take his life in such a dump.

It is past the exotic dancers' joint, just past a truck stop on the edge of a forest.

The Valdosta police are checking the recent articles, they said, and would have a comment soon.

The swing latch on the door can easily be closed with a string from the outside.

Christopher Bollyn

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

COMMENT #4 [link]
...Christopher Bollyn said on 12/20/2004 @ 11:23pm PT...

The "executive secretary" for Yang, Mike Cohen, needs to be asked a few direct questions, such as:

What is a nice Jewish boy like you doing in such a racket?

Is Yang Enterprises, Inc. a Mossad front? When I spoke to the editor of the Oviedo Voice, he told me that Mrs. Yang appeared to be just a front.

It is also very odd that there was NO mention of Mr. Lemme's death in the Valdosta Daily Times. Not a word about his death on July 2 or anytime after that. The Valdosta police said that the paper shies away from suicides. "

I just looked at the photos (again) on "unrestricted warfare" and was puzzled by the blood on the towel on the floor ,dscf0015(far side of bath) and the next two photos.
.: towel on floor -strange that there seems to be an area of blood that has NOT run down the side of the bath but has "free fell" to the towel on the floor suggesting the arm was extended .This pattern has 2 main features ,a large amount to the right of the buckle of the belt and a lesser feature to the left .To me this is odd as for the bulk of the blood to run off the back of the arm (to the right of the belt) the arm would have to be twisted beyond normal joint movement .Try this yourself and you have to actually twist quite a way to acheive a "downhill sloop"....
Odd in its self, no?
back latter

-If that is the merchant copy of the check-out receipt then where is the customer copy?
-Why would he bother to write a suicide note without even signing his name?
-Why is the white area around the razor blade almost completely devoid of blood and why is it placed on the ledge on the opposite side of the tub and on the other side of the shower curtain?
-Could the hotel clerk verify that the man he saw checking out was in fact Lemme?
-What about security cameras?
-Why are we the only people asking questions???

People -

I just read "Unrestricted Warfare" and the hairs on the back of my neck are permanently erect. Forget the forensics. The man was indubitably murdered. What concerns me the most is the issue I raised without benefit of other input, in #216. If a major collusional coup against American democracy is taking place unnoticed under our very noses at this very moment, we must arise at once - this minute - or forever lose any hold we once had over the direction of human life.

I am not a paranoid alarmist. We all pride ourselves on being pragmatic Missourians who've "got to be shown," don't we? But this is something we have to pay attention to immediately.

Brad, you say that all networks know about this story. Have you contacted individual commentators? Does Lou Dobbs himself know of this thread? Word MUST get out. And quickly.

Casolero #222 -

Thanks for the "compendium" and thank you for your human comments. This business has gone on long enough, and without pity. A human equation without pity is inhuman. We as a species cannot stand it.

Good people, keep up the good work.

Excuse me - "Casolaro"

The pictures: I wonder if Lemme was a neat freak. I wonder if his friends or family would be able to identify the pattern of arranging things so neatly, such as what's beside the sink.

If he wasn't a neat freak, then the neatness was either the work of someone else, or he was trying to communicate that something was unnatural about him before he died.

So he lays out a towel near the toilet, allegedly cuts himself, spills a small amount of blood there, then walks to the bathroom, messes up the wall of the shower stall probably with his left arm or elbow, then does a 180 after he neatly lays down another towel, and sits down in the bathtub before blacking out.

If he cuts his artery, there should be far more blood than we see, and it should be everywhere. My God, the guy even bleeds neatly. There's no blood at the bottom of the tub that should have left a trail to the drain.

The dark towel or piece of rectangular cloth upon which he sits has a rumpled edge in one picture, then a smooth edge in another.

The lack of blood in the tub, coupled with the different looks of the towel would indicate that:

1. The body or the cloth was rearranged for the benefit of the camera shots, or the body was moved before a complete collection of evidence.

2. The blood may have spilled out of the body without the benefit of normal blood pressure, which might mean that Lemme was already dead or dying at the time of the damage to his left arm.

It might be worth an investigator's time to see the time cards or find out who was working at the motel at the time of the killing. I'd also want to know the travel, spending and bank transaction incidents of any and all employees at the motel, including the managerial staff, at the time just before and after the killing. It's possible that money exchanged hands.

There's more blood in the Bush than you'd ever imagined.
http://www.voxfux.com/fe...res/bush_body_count.html

Great work and great questions by all. Some I can answer, some I can't. I had hoped to post a followup today to do just that, but time is not currently allowing.

I will try again tomorrow to plow through all the questions, and tell you what I can. But tomorrow unfortunately or fortunately, already looks to be another big day.

Running on fumes for the moment, and struggling just to keep up. So thanks for your patience.

Have read *most* but not all of the comments above, though I will when I prepare a bunch of the answers to a bunch of the questions.

One comment I'll answer to now though...Just cuz I need to...Steve mentioned at #181:

How many hits did you get on this one Brad? Hopefully, a few donations for your efforts (my second to Cheryl in #157).

Looks like we've had upwards of 60,000 pageloads since I posted this story. And 1 donation

I won't be insulted at all if anyone cares to help close that ratio a bit

Sorry to even mention it, but this has --- obviously --- turned into a 36/7 job officially as of now, and as they say on Public Radio, we rely on you to keep us in business! (Of course, they get government grants...Whiners!

Casolaro, why in your opinion would Lemme have pre-registered at Knights Inn on 6/29, then driven 80 miles back to Tallahassee, spent the night with his wife, then gotten up early to meet his contact back in Valdosta? Even if the timeline allows for his having done so, what would have been the point? To make sure he had a room available?

Is there any evidence, anywhere, of anyone in Valdosta, Georgia, who knew Ray Lemme or had any connection with the Florida D.O.T.? If no valid reason for his being there can be found, it obviously strengthens the case for his having been murdered elsewhere first.

Brad said: "Looks like we've had upwards of 60,000 pageloads since I posted this story. And 1 donation"

Pimpin' for Brad. Come on guys! I will if you will. The poor guy has gotten no sleep and he's doing great work.

Brad's Earned It

Would you consider this as a "possible", Lemme had an informant/whistleblower/troll who said he needed a "safe place to talk" about this "big" case so Lemme books the room for this person and plans to meet them the following day.
You need to talk to whoever took the booking for the room ,fits with the checking out time problem as well.

That's the way it looks, unless a before-the-fact connection can be established between Valdosta and either Lemme or the Florida D.O.T. A private investigator does not drive 160 miles round-trip to meet a stranger in a fleabag motel, unless he is convinced 1) the person has vital information, and 2) it can only be transmitted at that location.

It looks more and more like an inside job. Lemme wouldn't have gone to Valdosta on a wild goose chase. He was experienced in his work. An anonymous call from a crank, "Hey, Lemme, I've got some information for you. Come to Knights Inn in Valdosta and we can talk," wouldn't have cut it.

More likely it was someone he trusted at the Florida D.O.T. who said, "Ray, let's get out of town where it's safe to talk." I suspect that was the 1:30 appointment he never kept (or did keep).

First, Brad, I'd be happy to donate, but I don't have (or want) a credit card. If you have anoer means, I'd be happy to transfer some dollars to you! Mail me with details please.

Also, just wanted to apologise for baiting that stupid little Troll earlier, I couldn't resist it! I'm a bad boy...

For those interested in the Trade Deficit and China in particular (though Japan is by FAR the biggest creditor!) Check this out (From the US Treasury):
http://www.ustreas.gov/tic/mfh.txt

And compare it to previous years:
http://www.ustreas.gov/tic/mfhhis01.txt

And as I said earlier, if Japan ever decided to sell even a fraction of the debt to China, that would be VERY bad! One last thing, I have a Japanese University exchange student staying in my home right now. Her father is a wealthy Jpanese industrialist. She said that there is a growing core of wealthy people in Japan that have not (and will never) forgive the USA for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And who is surprised? I am sure that Iraq will remember the USA fondly also... *NOT*!

And now we have pissed off Italy! Will we never learn???

or someone who had previously given good info to bait such a trap once the bad guy realised he was on to them anyway ?
needs people on the ground to gather evidence

Hmmmm....

Based upon everything I have read here and elsewhere, I must agree with Robert Lockwood Mills, *IF* He did in fact drive to Valdosta. Or, perhaps he was driven there, conscious or unconscious.

The problem with the theory that Lemme was driven to Valdosta as a dead body is all the blood in the bathtub (assuming it really was blood, which the police's photographer could have easily confirmed). He couldn't have bled that much as a corpse driven from Florida to Georgia to avoid an autopsy. And, getting a dead body into a hotel room, when that same room has been registered to the same person, alive, is something of a project.

Lemme had been working for a while to uncover corruption inside the Florida D.O.T. He told Curtis he was close to establishing a chain of wrongdoing that went "all the way to the top." Lemme couldn't have gotten that far without cooperation from informants inside the agency.

Anyone who gave him dope on higher-ups would have had his or her career and personal safety at stake, sp it isn't surprising that nobody has come forward. But if any of those higher-ups, or anyone at Yang (Henry Nee?) had gotten wind of Lemme's progress because of leaks within the inside network, then it naturally follows that these people would have arranged Lemme's murder in a state where an autopsy might be avoided (and was).

The same leak that clued the higher-ups in to the danger involved could have compromised Lemme's informant to the extent that he or she participated in luring Lemme to Valdosta. That would explain his willingness to go there as a "safe place to talk, out of town, where we won't be noticed."

I agree that transporting a dead body wouldn't have worked, which is why I said conscious or unconscious. The trouble is, everything is too vague, misleading, incomplete etc. It's difficult to make and definite determinations about what really happened. The people who know anything, are not talking.

Either his signature was faked, or he could have signed under some kind of duress. Perhaps his family were threatened. He obviously loved them a great deal.

The *evidence* that I have seen up until now, seems very incomplete. It raises far too many questions. The only reason things would have been as sloppy as they appear to be if the murder were carried out by someone very competent, is if they were certain it would never see the light of day! But, if there was no certainty of that, then it appears that the attempt at making it look like a suicide, is very amateurish.

I should have added: One thing I *am* certain of, is that the Valdosta PD know a lot more than they are admitting! There is more than enough evidence to suggest that at the very least, Mr. Lemme's death was suspicious! He should have had an autopsy at the least, and (going by PD procedures as I know them) should have had an initial murder investigation. And that worries me.

It might seem amateurish to us, but it did work...at least temporarily. The verdict was "suicide."

I can't help but look at the Lemme case as microcosmic of a larger problem, i.e., the reflexive dismissal of "conspiracy theories" by the mainstream media. Malvelolent people can murder a decent man for doing his job, cover it up with an awkward staged suicide, yet when intelligent men and women look at the facts and say, "No way, Jose," guess what? WE BECOME THE FOOLS IN TIN HATS, BECAUSE THE PRESS WON'T TOUCH IT!

The New York Times and CNN have got to be made to understand that people murdered Ray Lemme with the expectation that any effort to disavow the staged suicide would be dismissed as a crazy theory put forth by conspiracy-minded liberals. It's no longer left and right, friends...it's true vs. false.

I've asked Bill Keller at the New York Times to assign an investigative reporter to the case. Please, everyone, write one e-mail to a newspaper, send one letter to a TV station, make one phone call to a congressman, tell one friend. Ray Lemme must not have died in vain.

Again, I agree. The problem is that when I read stories such as this one in Raw Story, I despair of any of the MSM doing anything but supporting Bush and co.
http://rawstory.com/news/2005/index.php?p=167

However, you are right that we cannot give up! There must still be investigators and reporters with some sort of morals and ethics. Perhaps if their consciences prod them hard enough, or they believe they will get enough support, they will move. Sadly, as most things are in todays World, it about money.

Here is a good article about what happened to Dan Rather. Sadly, that has made other journalists very cautious! I believe Rather was set up to be an example to the others.
http://observer.com/pages/nytv.asp

It seems that whenever the MSM do get forced to publish something negative to Bush or his agents, they always down play it, or put some kind of spin on it to depreciate the truth.

The crime family who created this "suicide" is organized, and unless we are as well. impenetrable. With 'law enforcement', and corporate media psy-ops surrounding US like this,....let this one be proven, if not Guckert/Gannon/Rove/McClellan, or
Bush's murdered prostitute in TX. My God, indeed it was all "hard work".

No wonder he believes in getting "Raptured", bringing us all down the drain--(prophecywatch.org)

PRIVATISE MY PRIVATES!!!!

Brad,

I would like to make a donation, but I need to send you a check. I couldn't find any information on the site about how to do that (i.e. who to make it out to, where to mail it). Perhaps you could put this information up at the top of the screen on the home page for myself and others like me for whom Paypal is, for one reason or another, not an option.

Also, I run a non-profit organization with an online newsletter. Many people come to the site, read the newsletter, take the information they need for whatever project they're working on, and leave. No "thank you," no donation. This has been going on for several years. My experience has been that as long as people can continue to get all the information they need for free, very few will go to the trouble (and expense) of making a donation. This is just the nature of the Internet. People associate it and everything on it with being "free."

For this reason, we are in process of converting portions of our web site, including the newsletter, to "members-only." People will be able to read the first few para's of an article for free, but if they want to see the whole thing, they will have to become a member. I know this will be frustrating for people, and will reduce our readership. But the service we are providing costs us time and money, and we can no longer continue to provide this service when so few people are willing to voluntarily support it.

I think you may need to consider doing the same thing: Locking down some of your content and requiring people to make a donation of $10 or $20 bucks for annual membership dues before they can read it.

It sucks, I know. But trust me. If you continue down this road, where you're getting 60,000 downloads a day and one donation, you will not be in this business for long. You will just wear yourself thin and become very frustrated with the whole thing. And who could blame you? Wouldn't everyone become very frustrated if they worked 24/7 on a sensational story, then posted it and got one lousy donation?

You can't really blame your visitors, either. They mean well. They really do. And they appreciate what you're doing. But unless they're trying to do the same thing themselves, they simply aren't able to understand why their financial support is so critical.

Just something to think about. Keep up the good work!

re: 88, 89, 93

If you're still around and have some more troll work to do:

Lemme was holding information from the 2000 election, not the 2004 election.

I'm covering a small piece of informational turf that I don't think anyone else covered yet. I want to make sure that if the two of you are still around, I'm suggesting that you read some background information before you deride the efforts displayed on this blog.

I understand what you mean Robert, I should have made that last statement more clear perhaps. What I meant by *amateurish* is this:

If we think it's amateurish based upon the (supposed) evidence we have seen, then why wouldn't it seem that way to the Valdosta PD? Surely they have far more information and evidence than we have to go on. So, either they believe the evidence conclusively points to suicide (and either we are wrong, or they are incompetent), or - they covered it up. If so, the question is, why?

How many DEAD JOURNALISTS so far anyway? Somethings definitely not right here.

How many DEAD JOURNALISTS so far anyway? Somethings definitely not right here.

The number will only continue to grow... just like all the deaths (mystereious or "suicides") related to Johnny Gosch and the Franklin Creit Union Cover up that had ties to the first bush Admin.

Re: Transporting a Corpse

I've seen at other sites discussing these matters that SUPPOSEDLY Lemme was for some reason going to MOODY AIR FORCE BASE...

which is in Valdosta, GA.

So, if the beating/subduing took place there (hence the bruising), Lemme could easily have been transported to the Knights Inn for the kill.

Google "Lemme" and "Moody Air Force"

Kryten, if Chief Childress really believed the evidence pointed to suicide, he wouldn't have reopened the investigation in December. He sounds to me like an honest guy who has been overcome by circumstances he wasn't prepared for.

I think the first investigation was simply slipshod, not corrupt. The people who committed this murder weren't going to tip their hands by intimidating cops unless it was necessary...and with the suicide finding, it didn't seem that it was. So I think the Valdosta P.D. just blew it, possibly because they didn't have the funding for a major investigation.

Now we have an entirely different situation. Every hour, more and more people are looking at Ray Lemme's suicide and saying, "NOT!" When Brad first stirred the pot, they reopened the case, and IT IS AT THAT POINT THAT THE BAD PEOPLE IN THE FLORIDA D.O.T AND/OR YANG AND/OR THE U.S. CONGRESS STARTED TO THROW THEIR WEIGHT AROUND.

Either the media think this is political, and don't want to make a "Dan Rather" type mistake by chasing bad leads, or they're afraid of the Bush administration's capacity for exclusion and retaliation, or they think it's somehow patriotic not to expose high-level political corruption in wartime.

But I'm still hopeful, because there's what might be called a "Law of Proportionate Revulsion" involved here. When enough people intuit that something mendacious has happened, and powerful and nasty people are getting away with bad things, they get ticked off. That's what happened during Watergate, and nobody got murdered there. I think that will happen again here, because while politics is more polarized, human nature hasn't changed that much since 1974.

The FDOT would have had literal reams of Lemme's handwriting, which is easy to fake.

Getting the CC companies records (if they haven't already been altered) is crucial.

As for Moody Air Force base, yes, it is in Valdosta, GA.

And, yes, Lemme was an active USAF reservist.

But that's the only connections I've heard about. Nothing about him being called there.

Any further information about that would be appreciated.

Good points all along Robert. And interesting about your political media thoughts. Is it safe to say that if the MSM doesn't report on something then it's likely a political issue?

Can someone post an updated timeline. I'm confused. Lemme makes reservation the night before. Lemme leaves at 5.15a calls his boss to say he'll be late 6.15a halfway to Valdosta. Gets there and unpacks all his toiletries?

There's just no logical reason for Ray Lemme to have driven all the way to Valdosta on 6/29 just to make a reservation in a fleabag motel, then have driven all the way home to spend the night, then left early the next morning to go back there.

Even if he did all this, there's no accounting for his time between his phone call to his boss from the road at 6:15 a.m. on 6/30, and the discovery of his body at mid-day of 7/1, in a room he'd already checked out of! It's vital that the clerk on duty be shown a photo of Ray Lemme and asked, "Is this the man who made the reservation on 6/29?" and "Did this same man check in on 6/30 and out on 7/1?"

Thanks to Curiouser. The Moody A.F.B. link leads to the Wayne Masden story, but doesn't provide a reason for why Lemme would have gone there in the midst of his investigative work. He was a reservist, but a connection to the case is missing.

RLM - Here's a conjecture.

Say Lemme got a call from a trusted source who asked to meet him in Valdosta with information regarding Lemme's findings.

Say the trusted source asked Lemme to meet him at the Knights Inn.

What is clear is that Lemme considered this to be a 'big case' and, given what he had found and the way Curtis describes Lemme's comments about it, Lemme might have very well have been willing to go to such a clandestine meeting.

That seems the most reasonable conjecture to me.

Curiouser - The "trusted source" wouldn't even need to have mentioned the Knights Inn. It might have been arranged for them to meet at Moody AFB or a coffee shop. Anywhere.

Then, expanding on your conjecture, Lemme could have been subdued by the 3 mysterious men later sighted at the hotel who took his body to the Knights Inn, alive or freshly dead, to stage a suicide.

re #251: Eyeball Kid: I think you may have missed the point of the posts you criticized (#88, 89 and 93). The readers to whom you suggested "that you read some background information before you deride the efforts displayed on this blog" are pretty well up-to speed, by the way. And they weren't deriding anything except a few dumb statements made earlier on this thread (especially #21 and 37). So don't fret; they're with you!

This may get truncated...

Paperwork from the Valdosta PD 'investigation' can be found at this link:
http://insider-magazine.com/ValdostaPD.html

A photocopy of a 'Supplemental Detective Report' by Eugene Bell, Jr., Sergeant states:

"On July 1, 2003 at approximately 1347 hours, I spoke with an occupant of room #234. The individual identified himself as Michael Davis, Age: 29 of [crossed out], Meigs, Georgia. He was a black male. Palmer gave me a brief verbal statement, claiming that he had never actually seen Raymond Lemme. He claimed to have seen Lemme's vehicle parked in the parking area adjacent to room #132 since the previous Sunday afternoon (June 30, 2003) at approximately 1530 hours. Palmer told me that he had not seen or heard any strange occurrences."

"On July 1, 2003 at approximately 1357 hours, I spoke with a white female who identified herself as Judy Gregory, Age: 39 of [crossed out[ Room #236, Valdosta, Georgia. Gregory told me that she was temporarily living at the motel until she found a permanent residence. ... Gregory claimed that at approximately 0800 hours on July 1, 2003, she was on her way to a storage area when she saw three (3) men standing in the parking lot across from room #132 [Lemme's room] and adjacent the wooded area, speaking. Gregory stated that she thought it to be strange that the three men would be standing there. According to Gregory, the men spoke in a normal tone of voice and appeared to be having a normal conversation. Gregory stated that she initially thought the men were conducting an illegal drug transaction. She stated that she simply went on about her business. I asked her to describe the men she saw. She described them as being two (2) black males and one (1) possible white male. While she had no other description of the possible white male other than the fact that he might have been a white male, Gregory described one black male as being light skinned, weighing approximately 200 pounds or more and being approximately six feet in height. She described the second black male as being dark skinned and weighing approximately 180 pounds or more. I asked Gregory if she ever say Raymond Lemme. She claimed to never have seen him to her knowledge. Gregory stated that she had not seen nor heard anything else that struck her as being strange. [Her 16 year old daughter] Heather Gregory told me that she had seen the two black males standing in the same location as described by her mother, talking at approximately 0730 hours on July 1, 2003. I passed on the information that I received to Detective Spencer."

QUESTION: Did Sgt. Bell ask Judy or Heather Gregory (Room #236) if they had ever seen Michael Davis (Room # 234), and whether or not he looked like either of the black males they had spotted adjacent to the woods?

Maybe Lemme was told to/or wanted to check out before anything final happened in order to save extra accruals on the credit card.

Okay, he reserved the room the night before at 6:44 PM, possibly by phone but didn't stay there - has anyone checked phone records from the hotel? From his house?

Where was he at that time of night on a Sunday night?

I'm not buying the bit about hotel receipts being screwed up on the date - 2003 wasn't a leap year, so why would their dates be screwed up at ALL, much less in June-July? And hotels have to be careful about dates because generally rates are higher on weekends.

This should be easily verifiable anyway, through the credit card company AND through receipts, bills, etc held by anyone else who checked into or out of the hotel during those couple of days.

Who were the witnesses that saw three men outside the hotel? Were they hotel guests? I'd be looking for them and ask to see their receipts.

Also, King's Inn is a chain - the home office should have copies of the records as well. And I'd definitely be checking out whomever was on the desk that night.

Who picked up the passkey to the room, and when?

The rest of my post is circumstantial and purely deductive reasoning that can't be proven as evidence. That said...

I don't know a man alive who could be excited about his daughter's wedding and voluntarily miss the chance to walk her down the aisle. IMHO, IF he were going to commit suicide, he'd have waited for AFTER the wedding.

I didn't see any major toiletries other than the comb, in fact, it looks the hand soap hasn't even been opened nor the hand towel used. That tells me he probably wasn't there and concious very long - people who are that neat generally wash their hands after using the restroom, and people who get up that early and drive that far, especially drinking coffee (and water, according to the photos), usually do that first thing when they get to the room.

And do you know ANYONE who would be meticulous enough to lay out their possessions in such a way and NOT push the chair up to the desk when they got up? It's absolute and unconcious habit (I know, I live with one of "those guys")

Just thoughts...too many unanswered questions.

Curiouser: Your conjecture sounds plausible. But it leaves us with a timeline problem.

A trusted friend says, "Meet me at Knights Inn," or "Meet me at Moody A.F.B." If this invitation was made on 6/29, why would Lemme have gone there, registered at the motel, then driven all the way back to Tallahassee to sleep without having resolved whatever the call was about?" On the other hand, if he got the call on 6/30, he would have had no reason to visit Valdosta on 6/29 or to pre-register at a fleabag motel.

Your theory might fit if the time clock at Knights Inn had in fact been a day off, and Lemme registered there at 6:54 p.m. on 6/30, not 6/29. He left home at 5:15 a.m. on 8/30 (wife's testimony), left a message for his boss from the road at 6:15 a.m. (Clift's testimony) to the effect that he "wouldn't be in" or "would be late" (we should know which of these is correct...it's important).

This pattern by Lemme would make sense if he had gotten a late phone call on 6/29 from someone he trusted (as you suggest), urging him to come to Valdosta as early as possible on 6/30 (hence his 5:15 a.m. departure). Clift apparently tried to reach him about a 1:30 p.m. appointment that he apparently failed to keep (we need to know a lot more about that...whom did Clift speak to?).

If Lemme was in Valdosta all day on 6/30, as seems probable, he must have learned enough to want to stay over until 7/1. If we assume the timeclock was a day off, he checked into the motel at 6:54 p.m., meaning absent the expectation of learning more on 7/1, he could simply have driven home and arrived at Tallahassee by 8;15 or so.

But none of this makes sense if in fact Lemme went to the motel on 6/29 to pre-register. We have to know if the timeclock was correct; if it wasn't, it looks pretty certain that somebody else was masquerading as Raymond Lemme, in which case the finding of suicide can be categorically dismissed.

Meant to say, "If the timeclock WAS correct, somebody was masquerading as Raymond Lemme."

According to the police report, there were people interviewed who said they checked in on the 29th - what date was on their check-in slip?

Eyeball Kid #251 -

If you think we are trolls or have not been keeping track of this story for months, think again! Although I haven't really "met" Nunya yet, I'm sure we'll get around to "introducing" ourselves.

Winter Patriot #262 -

Thanks

Thanks for the link to those reports. Much to look at!

Why would Floyd (whom I no longer like and now highly suspect) remove the suicide note from the planner to bag it?! Why would she not bag the whole freaking planner. Perhaps the planner was switched out after removal of the note.

She says driver's license was on the vanity - but another report says Lemme's wallet was in his car. But then receipts were found on him? Is it normal to leave your wallet in the car, put your license on the vanity but without a credit card also on the vanity? Where was the credit card used to check in and out - also in the wallet in the car).

Floyd makes too big a deal of how hard it would be to open the locked door. AND, the report written by Sgt Wheeler (he got there 2nd just after Gortman )first says that they were able to get right in. But then, at the END of the report they (add) a few lines (backtracking) about how hard it was to get in and how they practice on another door first. THAT was added later I'm sure.

Robert, I think wife's affidavit says that he called his boss and left a message saying that he would be in late, something came up, AND that he would call later.

RLM - Obviously, a hit team could have secured the room on the 29th using Lemme's name and forging a signature.

But using a forger who was a Lemme lookalike as well? (If you trust the hotel employee's verification of Lemme being the signee, which I presume was done.)

The police report notes that Judy Gregor was asked if she recognized Lemme. It does not note if she was asked if Michael Davis was one of the 3 men spotted.

[Just an aside - Lemme's watch said "12:34"; Davis was in Room #234. Maybe just a coinicdence, but...]

Okay y'all, I found something odd.

Anybody got a 2003 calendar handy?

June 29th - Sunday
June 30th - Monday
July 1 - Tuesday

And yet the police report by Eugene Bell refers to a witness who had seen Lemme's vehicle the day before, and refers to the date as SUNDAY, June 30th - what's up with that?

Also, Sabita Vallait indicated Lemme had checked in early the night before - that would have been June 30th - and never checked out - yet his signature was on the checkout receipt dated for early on the MORNING of the 30th. The date discrepancy has been pointed out, but how did she explain the other discrepancies?

re #263: Curioser: nothing gets truncated here. We request that you post links to online articles. rather than pasting them here in their entirety, but it's always ok to quote a few paragraphs. If you have something original to say, or something to quote that's not online, there is no rule limiting the length of your comment.

We try to keep the cross-talk and OT posts to a minimum on "serious" threads, and we always request that you treat other posters with respect, but otherwise there are very few rules as to what you can post here.

I hope that makes things clear. Carry on, please!

I also found it odd that he'd bring in his driver's license and leave his wallet in the car. Where was his credit card that he used to pay for the room?

The photographs don't lie, there was blood clearly visible on the towel on the floor, and the report by C. Spencer stated that there was some blood on the bathroom door - so what could possibly be the reason for stating that there was dried blood on the belt but not the towel when it was so obvious?

Incompetence?

Was the body or other evidence moved before it was photographed, allowing blood to spill on the towel?

How long has this man been a cop, and has he made such blatent mistakes before?

Winter Patriot: I did give a link to the PDF/scanned document that I quoted from, which I had to type out by hand.

I'm sure you'll appreciate the inconvenience of that.

Concerned Citizen-

My god, that's a bitter list. But they've got to dig up less circumstantial stuff than that. These guys wouldn't be convicted if they were photographed with the smoking murder weapon in their hand, because someone would jump in to claim the photo-op was set up by those murderous left-wingers.

Concerning the word "family underlined on the suicide note, you recall Lemme telling Curtis "this goes all the way to the top", I wonder if when the fog clears, you'll find "family" buried in the bushes.

Concerning the word "family underlined on the suicide note, you recall Lemme telling Curtis "this goes all the way to the top", I wonder if when the fog clears, you'll find "family" buried in the bushes.

Concerning the word "family underlined on the suicide note, you recall Lemme telling Curtis "this goes all the way to the top", I wonder if when the fog clears, you'll find "family" buried in the bushes.

Hey Curiouser: I've read my comment (#274) again and and again again and now I can finally see how you might have misunderstood me. I wasn't really clear at all. Let me try again.

I have no complaint with your post. You suggested that it might get truncated, and I was trying to say "No, no, don't worry about that!"

But at the same time, since there are so many new contributors around, I wanted to explain what we like to see, so everyone would be aware of what sorts of things we might be tempted to truncate. Let's try again:

In general, we ask posters not to post a big honking thing if they can post a link to it.

Your post was not a "big honking thing". Not even close. And you provided a link. So we would have no reason to truncate you. No reason to complain at all.

I would never have mentioned it except that you asked. Also ... I DO appreciate the inconvenience of dealing with scanned PDFs. [Believe me just this once --- I appreciate it big-time!] You're doing great. Sorry I was unclear. Please carry on!

Sorry for the multiple posts... first time here heard about this on Air America.
They do say good things come in threes. Anyway, Brad... Thanx for being there doing the dangerous work!!!

I'm reposting this as I think it deserve comment
(from my earlier post)
I just looked at the photos (again) on "unrestricted warfare" and was puzzled by the blood on the towel on the floor ,dscf0015(far side of bath) and the next two photos.
.: towel on floor -strange that there seems to be an area of blood that has NOT run down the side of the bath but has "free fell" to the towel on the floor suggesting the arm was extended .This pattern has 2 main features ,a large amount to the right of the buckle of the belt and a lesser feature to the left .To me this is odd as for the bulk of the blood to run off the back of the arm (to the right of the belt) the arm would have to be twisted beyond normal joint movement .Try this yourself and you have to actually twist quite a way to acheive a "downhill sloop"....
Odd in its self, no?

For those who aren't aware, There has been alot of microbiologists who have been recently dieing under very suspicious circumstances.
Checkout www.stevequayle.com ... link "QFiles" then link "Dead Scientists".

Winter Patriot #274 -

I may be wrong, but I interpreted Curioser to mean that the document might be clipped or "truncated" at its own web address - so C decided to reproduce it in full. I did not understand him/her to mean that BradBlog would alter it.

Communication sure is tricky on these lo-o-o-ong threads.

re #284. Good one. Thanks to Merlin's Eye. That's some spooky stuff, worthy of discussion but probably not on this thread. I've posted a link to the Dead Scientists on a more open thread. Join us there for further discussion, if you like.

It's the WATCH!!!

So, the body has been cremated and much evidence has disappeared with it.

However, at this point one of the more obvious ways to determine whether this was a murder or suicide is with the "WATCH".

It was placed neatly "on the counter" and police report indicated it had stopped at 12:34 on June 30th. The police report also indicated the time of death for Ray around 8:10am on June 30th? He was "supposably" last seen at motel front desk check at 6:54am and supposably called his boss at 6:15 on same day June 30th?

The real question is…. Why did the watch "Stop"? Did Ray (4 hours and 24 minutes after his death) decide to get out of the tub, pull the stem out to set and/or stop the hands movement and get back in or did "water" … again … I say did "WATER" at some point enter the watch and short out the battery operated electronic movement?

If so, then the watch was on Ray's left wrist when somebody cut his left forearm to murder him. The watch must have spent considerable time in bloody bath water. If so, the water leaked in around the watch case back or stem seals and "shorted out" the battery operated watch? The murders must have forgot about the watch until they were ready to leave. In the photos you can plainly see his left arm lying on the bottom of the bathtub which is where it would have lain had the watch been on his wrist. The murders forgot the watch, left it on his arm during the murder in the water and removed it later, rinsed it off and placed it on the counter.

It's the watch! Check inside the watch for signs of Ray 's blood (DNA) and bath water/moisture probably still "INSIDE" the watch. Maybe some DNA is still on the outside case and band.

Also, to the best of my knowledge nobody in the US sells double-edged razor blades anymore, that's foreign product (Mexico, Argentina, China etc.)

Also, Ray wasn't prepared for overnight stay no suitcase, no travel bag, and no toothpaste or toothbrush just everyday stuff he would always carry with him. The only other thing on the counter was Motel soap, shampoo, washcloth etc. This was last minute thing, not a planned trip he didn't intend to spend the night anywhere.

Also, sheriff report indicated door was locked a dead bolt from inside. That's an old ground floor outside entrance Holiday Inn Motel built in late 60's or early 70's. Those were built with "aluminum door frames". I can't tell you how many of those I've stayed in that the doors were jimmied from the outside. Just look at the middle of the aluminum door frames for pry marks. Crooks take a small flat pry bar jam it in the springy soft aluminum door frame leaning on the pry bar and pop the door open … they grab the wallets off the counter and run back out the door. In one night crooks could brake into two or three rooms in a row. The only way to stop them is to jam a chair at an angle under the door handle.

Anyway, the point of the above story is simply this; you can open and leave that particular type door/frame with a pry bar. You "lock the door dead bolt" close it upto the aluminum doorframe, spring the door with the pry bar and slide the dead bolt jam around the frame into the hole, bingo it's shut and now locked from the inside. It would take 3 or 4 seconds at the most.

Again, check inside the watch.

It's the watch people. Prove it was a murder, then someone will be forced to investigate it.

Look inside the dam watch!!!

IT"S THE WATCH!!!!!!!!

Winter Patriot-

Tell Brad to pass on the above info to VPD check the inside of the watch for DNA.

810 time
+1234 watch
---------------
=2044, which is the unicode character for a slash on your keyboard.

Just thought it was creepy....

(#289) G: I don't have to tell Brad anything. You have already told him.

Brad reads all the comments, eventually. I try to keep things running smoothly while he digs or sleeps or does radio interviews or whatever, but don't worry: he's reading you.

about the watch....the chance it would stop at 12.34 was said to be 0.01% ..also if you submerge an electronic watch it will run for quite a while ...days not hours ...before it will short out....I've worked with electronics for over 25years and have seen many examples of this with cell phones ,cameras and like .Water is not a very good conductor of "low voltage " electricity.
The interesting thing about the time the watch was stopped at is referred to in post #263.
A photocopy of a 'Supplemental Detective Report' by Eugene Bell, Jr., Sergeant states:

"On July 1, 2003 at approximately 1347 hours, I spoke with an occupant of room #234. The individual identified himself as Michael Davis, Age: 29 of [crossed out], Meigs, Georgia. He was a black male. Palmer gave me a brief verbal statement, claiming that he had never actually seen Raymond Lemme. He claimed to have seen Lemme's vehicle parked in the parking area adjacent to room #132 since the previous Sunday afternoon (June 30, 2003) at approximately 1530 hours. Palmer told me that he had not seen or heard any strange occurrences."
If 1234 is not a sign for Lemme maybe Room 234 is,has anybody tried to track down this person or has he "disappeared" ?

Blood patterns are a science in modern police investigations these days.

MMIIXX #292

Your generalization is about eletronics doesn't equal my personal experiences.

Cell phones and camera's do not like swimming pools or lake water even for 5 or 10 seconds... been there and done that with some very nice eletronic equipment. Old & new eletronic watches ("Water resistent") don't like garden hose water, bath tub, swimming pools or lake water. Even divers watch ("Waterproof" to 125 feet) will leak if a seal has been damaged.

Again, water could and does enter around "old" or damaged gaskets and deteriorating stem seals that a store employee (i.e.; Walmart, Kmart, Osco etc.) cut or twisted while replacing the watch back after installing a battery. It happens all the time.

Respectfully, I disagree with your opinion/assumption about watches, cameras and cell phones ... you repairedthe ones still working ... you are "INCORRECT".

Again, if the stem wasn't pulled out then what stopped the watch? A mixture of water and blood??????

By "truncated" I meant number of charcters allowed per post and I apologize for reading you wrong, WP.

Re: Double Sided Razor -

Det. Craig Spencer's 'Detective Report' states on page 3 (which you can see at http://insider-magazine.com/ValdostaPD.html:

"On July 8, 2003 at approximately 1420 hours, I went to the Fast Break and met with Matt Porter. I viewed their videotapes, but did not see Raymond Lemme enter the store. I asked Porter if the [sic] sold disposable razors and he showed me their selection. The type found in Lemme's room was not sold at the Fast Break."

Re: Michael Davis -

A very common name, granted. Mr. Davis is said to be 29 years old in the police report.

I hope nobody will think I'm trying to misdirect here, but I did find the following info about a Michael Davis age 45 in 2002 (48-29=19 so he would be old enough to be the father of the Michael Davis named in the police report) who pimped kids in northern Georgia [http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/gan/text_version/press_textversion/06-14-02.html]:

TWELVE PIMPS SENTENCED FOR PROSTITUTING CHILDREN
June 14, 2002
William S. Duffey, Jr., United States Attorney for the Northern District of Georgia, and Theodore Jackson, Special Agent in Charge, Federal Bureau of Investigation, announce that sentences have been handed down this week by United States District Judge J. Owen Forrester against 12 DEFENDANTS, on multiple charges relating to a scheme of child prostitution and child exploitation in the city of Atlanta.
...
MICHAEL DAVIS, 45
a/k/a "Hollywood"
6 victims
Prison Term (no parole): 5 yrs.
-----------------------------------
More about Michael "Hollywood" Davis [http://www.protectionproject.org/vt/2002/ne123.htm [scroll down 1/3 of the page]

PIMPING TRIAL: 'SELLING DREAMS' HELPS LURE GIRLS, DEFENDANT SAYS
"There was a lot of young girls out there," Michael Davis testified. In exchange for a lesser sentence, Davis agreed to help federal prosecutors in their cases against two other men accused of participating in a prostitution enterprise that used girls as young as 10."

Davis was the first witness in the federal child prostitution trial of Charles "Sir Charles" Pipkins, 56, considered in the pimp world as having international stature, and Andrew "Batman" Moore, 38. They are accused of participating in a pimp ring that enticed, recruited or kidnapped girls from middle schools, public transportation locations and strip clubs.
----------------

AGAIN, these two men (Davis Age 29 & Davis Age 48) may be TOTALLY UNRELATED. I am not trying claim a connection, just offering info from a cursory Google search. Please disregard as necessary. I apologize in advance if I offend anyone by posting the above information.

Damn, my whole comment got eaten (I forgot to put my name on and the back button didn't bring me back!)

Here goes a part of it, most importantly I wanted to talk about FINGERPRINTS:

1) We see 2 cups by the TV in the photos;
2) The 2 cups are not on the evidence lists;
3) What better place to find fingerprints:
4) There are no cups in the detailed drawing of the crime scene objects;
5) Floyd reports that (on the entire crime scene) she found only 1 latent print which wasn't enough of a print to identify;
6) What flea bag motel has cleaner's that are thorough enough to even clean prior guest prints off?

What else?

1) Oh yeah, good points G #287 - no toothbrush, no shaving kit, yet all the meds.

2) Also G #287, one report said they "Jimmied the lock" while Floyd said no sign of forced entry. Backs up the ease with which it could be done.

3) What if we disregard the wife's statement that she saw him at 5.15a on 6/30?

4) Could Lemme have stopped his own watch to leave the 1234 clue? If he can stop his watch, he can set it to any time he wants. Is the pen pointing to the watch? Is the pen telling time?

5) Where is the damn credit card? I guess it wouldn't look good if it were wiped clean and found on him.

6) If you are removing a tournequet from your left arm, you have to do it with your right. Barring switching hands after taking it off (to the lame arm), then the right arm would reach out to drop the belt and there would be no blood on the towel - which would be consistent with Floyd's report - but that we know isn't true. No wonder she messed with the photos. Cups too.

7) Why isn't the wash cloth in the evidence bag or even on the list - for hair, DNA etc.? Wouldn't a wash cloth be nice for DNA skin samples?

8) The coroner called it a suicide over the phone "based on" what Floyd told him. He later (I think) came out to the scene but it doesn't look like he investigated.

Apologies if I offend anyone who holds the following jobs, but if a gas station attendent, a janitor or a truck driver had been found in that tub, I might be quicker to conclude suicide.

But this was an investigator for the FDOT IG Office!

Just based on that fact alone the State of Florida should have been offered the opportunity to conduct its own crime scene investigation, shouldn't it? Was it?

Not that they wouldn't have tried to cover things up as well, but was the offer even ever made?

Also, as an aside, Luke 12:34 - "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

Maybe a "righteous" hitman like Jules Winnfield (Samuel L. Jackson in 'Pulp Fiction')?

Or perhaps a reference to his "family"/unmentioned daughter?

#21 is just like most of the bushies...he don't really care what happened as long as it benifitted him and his kind

sorry to harp but how does blood run up hill?
re:#283

whats with the police reports ,one cop opens the door with a KEY ,another with a JIMMY ??????????

http://insider-magazine.com/ValdostaPD.html

funeral guy left the scene before he even got there going by the police acess log

Curiouser is right. The Florida D.O.T. has lost a valued employee by death under unusual circumstances. They fail to request an autopsy, and rely entirely on the finding of the Valdosta P.D. that Ray Lemme committed suicide. They conduct no investigation of their own to determine why one of their employees either killed himself or was killed.

Yet when the Valdosta P.D. decides to reopen the investigation, suddenly the Florida D.O.T. becomes interested enough to ask that the investigation be terminated. That smells to high heaven, period.

If Lemme knew the case would be blowing in a couple of weeks and he already knew it went "straight to the top," why would he have to take a risk?

Kestrel #265, I think his daughter was about to be engaged rather than married, but I can't recall where I got that from. Still, your point remains the same.

MMIIXX #283, I think the cuts were on the inside left arm below the elbow. Does your theory still fit?

Bizkit #290 Well, I bet the thugs do have a "charge code" so they can get paid! Slash is as good as any!

Curiouser #296 Looks from the report that 2 separate FDOT employees came on 7/1 to take 1) his belongings and 2) his car. At least they were called. I have some suspicions with somebody having been "turned" at FDOT. That's where YEI would try to go first right? Find out what he knows already. Otherwise why worry?

The police reports do not jibe. There are several inconsistencies in the various police reports. Also, the three detectives spent a total of 5 hours... That's a long time in a small motel room. Especially considering the shortness of the reports and the missing details. They had time to take samples from every square inch of the room, and to examine everything in detail, like the watch. Yet there is scant mention of most of the items found.

Also, why did FDOT not investigate? One of there senior investigators is dead. It's my experience in such cases (whether suicide or not), that an agency whose agent is found dead by any means performs their own full investigation. At the least, they should have requested an autopsy.

Forther to my previous comments to those looking at involvement in this by foreign nationals, As I said Japan is America's biggest threat! Here is an article in Reuters today:

Having slumped to multi-month lows against its major counterparts on Wednesday, the dollar suffered another blow on Thursday after Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi told parliament that, generally speaking, diversity in foreign exchange reserves was a good thing.

http://www.reuters.com/f...News&storyID=7869060

Heh, sorry Robert, we are on the same wavelength... I didn't see you post while I was writing mine.

It is a very good question. FDOT have a lot to answer for I think.

On the Unrestricted Warfare site, there are two samples of Lemme's signature, one of which is his motel receipt. On neither signature does he show the deliberate pattern of strokes that are apparent in the suicide note. The handwriting on the note isn't a "natural" sampling.

Miss Persistent another strange thing is that the police report states that there was 2 "1 inch long" cut on the inside of the left elbow .Now I would think a suicider would be more inclined to use a slashing motion as apossed to actually slicing 2 similar length incisisions !
As to the blood pattern try it yourself (pretend only) its very hard to get any flow over the top of the inside of your elbow .Maybe if somebody was holding your arm and twisting it to hold it still while they cut ,you may then get blood run over the top .Try it with a cup of water.

Mmiixx #292 ----

You make a good point about the significance of the watch time. If Ray "pulled the stem" out to signify something it could be a room such as "234" or 134, 123 and 124. You would think whoever did this would avoid checking into a motel room under "their name" or "credit card". However, if a watch can leak then someone may be dumb enough to check in above, below or beside Ray's room to commit murder. Stranger things have happened.

One more thing about the watch. Hold any object under water that has two holes in it. One at the top another in the bottom and watch the water quickly enter as air escapes. Again, a cut or twisted, loose watch case gasket and damaged stem seal on Ray's silver Bulova man's watch would create that type of effect under water. Something stopped that watch. Either Ray pulled the stem out to signify something or it contains water, lots of bloody water.

Miss Persistent #295 ----

You make some very good points. The police did jimmy "two" doors in about five minutes with the wrong tool. Probably an old crow bar or something else, which would really damage the aluminum door frame or door. Yet, the Detectives didn't see any obvious signs damage?

Also the police report indicated-

- The bed wasn't disturbed.

- The very first page of the Coroners Report is totally obliterated? Why? You can't read anything on the first page. It almost looks intentional. Maybe an equipment malfunction like the camera memory and pictures?

- Correct me if I'm wrong, but none of the police reports mentioned the obvious bruises (from photos) on the right side of his neck.

- The days of Ray's motel check in/out on the police report and actual receipts of June 29/30 are inconsistent with what motel employees said in their statements. The motel employees said Ray's check out time was supposed to be July 1 at 11:00am. The same day he was found dead in the room. The motel receipts clearly indicate the check out time should have been June 30th at 11:00am.

Long shot but worth mentioning---

So, unbeknownst to Ray, maybe someone made a phone call reserving a room for him after 6:00 on June 29th for a guaranteed late arrival that night. Maybe they had access to Rays credit card number (state furnished corporate card?) and guaranteed it to his (or maybe someone else's?) credit card. Either way Ray, or someone else, made the reservations and the motel posted them for the night of June 29th . Ray may have signed his credit receipt the morning of June 30th. The time frame of events allows for that to happen and place him back in the room well before 8:00am June 30th. However, someone else could have forged his name from the back of his credit card and talked to the desk clerk. Whoever signed the receipt, may have explained to the motel desk clerk about the "no show' for the night of June 29th and talked the clerk into giving them the night of the June 30th at no charge and thereby extending his departure to July 1 at 11:00am. This would explain the odd assortment of check in/out dates and times (receipts verses clerks statements). If this theory were correct then why wouldn't the motel clerk mention it to the police? Who actually made the reservation and on whose credit card?

I'd say the credit card numbers on that "ticket" and "motel receipt" could be different and either one might be important and easy to find?

It's a long shot…. but just like a leaky watch and bogus motel rooms … you never know what's going to lead you to the smoking gun!

Robert Lockwood Mills #301
Kryten42 #303

Very good point about FDOT should have investigated Ray's death.

Ray was an important man. A FDOT Senior Investigator dies in another state under questionable circumstances and they don't touch it.

Something is very, very wrong.

PEOPLE were following Ray Lemme around. He leaves home before dawn, then phones his boss to say "I'll be late for work???" That's it? Not why, where he was going, when he'd be in for work?? These PEOPLE KNEW he had a meeting with the attorney. How??? He was kidnapped, taken to the motel, tortured into handing over all information, his family threatened, and he was murdered. We all know what and who he was investigating. These are the guilty parties who had PEOPLE follow him, kidnap him and murder him. Ray told Cliff he was about to break the case. Ray must have told his boss???? Ray may, OR MAY NOT, have told anyone else. If he did, who might he have told? Probably not too many people. His boss may have reported the info to others. Who did his boss talk to? Is his boss now scared because he knows Ray Lemme was murdered??

The watch is not an older watch, the kind you have to manually wind. Can see that by the photo. Yet not all modern watches are battery powered. Citizen makes the solar powered Eco-drive, so that is photo-electric but essentially a form of battery power. Seiko makes a line of watches that use the kinetic motion of the wearer to power them. Not sure how long the Seikos run after you take them off, but I would think at least 12 hours. Something other than energy source being conumed or removed could have stopped any kind of watch. Kinetic watches have been around for some time. The battery just dying when lemme did... well, anything is possible, but highly improbable. Some one posted that his body was cremated. That's unfortunate. was

The "check out" part of the story does not make sense. Mr. Lemme would not check out and then commit suicide. There is no reason to check out if you are going to really "check out". It makes no sense.

However, a murderer trying to appear "normal" would check in, and then check out. Also, the "tidiness" of checking out, goes with the "tidiness" of laying out Mr. Lemme's belongings neatly on the table. I've heard of insane but "tidy" murderers before. Would using the bathtub also help contain the blood, as opposed to the bed, to ensure the murderers didn't step in blood dripping on the floor, or get blood on themselves.

I also don't believe that absolutely no one at FDOT knew what stage Mr. Lemme was at in his investigation. He only told Cliff??? Doubt it. When did his boss tell Mr. Lemme's wife that he had received a phone call from Ray? Ray phoned his boss at home at 6 am to say he would be late for work???? No explanation?? His boss said "Okay" and went to brush his teeth?

Mr. Lemme didn't have a cellphone??? FDOT didn't supply their investigators with cellphones?? He used a payphone to call his boss?? Did FDOT ask for the return of Mr. Lemme's black leather diary???

Where was Henry Lee at the time of Mr. Lemme's death?

Did Mr. Lemme have a co-investigator on this case by the name of Bowen? Mrs. Lemme says in her affidavit that her husband had a meeting to attend to AT WORK...implying at the office that day. The co-investigator and his boss Clift should not be let off the hook. They know A LOT!

I'd like to repeat an earlier point. Lemme had told Clint Curtis he was about to break a big story. He told his wife he was working on a big case. These are established facts. The question has arisen in recent posts, "Wouldn't he have told others in the F.D.O.T. the same things?"

Probably. But the more salient fact is that Lemme could not have reached that point in his investigation without cooperation from certain people within the department. An inspector has to ask questions and examine files; he doesn't work in a vacuum. The deeper he got into the case, the more people he needed to help, and therefore the greater the chance someone would feel threatened.

The failure of the F.D.O.T. to conduct its own inquiry into Lemme's death, and especially the request of the Valdosta P.D. to close the second investigation begun in Dec. '04, is a smoking gun for me.

1) The underlined words in the note spell, "My family, I love you". He gives the reason why he cooperated in writing the note _in_ the note.
2) Why no signature on the note? Because the hitmen didn't have a sample of his signature, and so couldn't verify it. There were taking a risk with him handwriting the note, but it was countered by the credence it would lend to the suicide bluff, and the fact they'd threatened his family.
4) The neatness thing is a key issue - as a USAF reservist he may have been a neat freak. If he wasn't, this looks like a military hit.

Happyday - Interesting observations.

Question: If the hitmen didn't have a sample of his signature, who signed the receipt? My guess is that they not only had several copies of his signature but of his handwriting as well. FDOT would have had plenty to provide.

I presume this was a military/intelligence hit, hence the proximity to Moody AFB.

Lemme, as an active Air Force Reservist had probably been to Valdosta on several occassions, and thus would not have felt threatened by a request from a source to meet in that area, whether at Moody AFB, a fleabag motel or somewhere else.

What puzzles me is the appearance that his wife now goes along with the suicide theory. I understand being scared, but only to a point.

And why agree to have the body cremated? It's not as though his wounds would be visible at a funeral - with the exception of the neck bruise / black eye, which could still be covered with make up.

At least his brother seems to doubt the suicide theory, but, from what Brad has implied, won't go on the record about it.

I just wish that the Guckert thing wasn't sucking the wind out of this, which is just my opinion and not to disparage the ongoing Guckert investigation.

Can somebody who has a dailykos account PLEASE try to get some traction for this new information there TODAY?! Or has it happened and I missed it. (Why don't I have an account there? Because they don't usually discuss matters as important and damning as this. Maybe I'll have to start one... but wouldn't kos do a prominent entry on it if Brad contacted him?)

There are no pictures of the cieling. Arteries will spray blood. The only thing he would use a turniquet for was to raise blood vessels.

Not enough blood there. You can test the bathroom and find cieling traces that would be consistent with suicide- you won't find any someone stayed over him, bound one arm and did the deed. No struggle signs, it would appear he was drugged.

How many towels does that place have? Hotel security cams showing him arrive/leave?

Bush corruption inspires untimely coincidental deaths(again).

The Dems sure did start voting funny when this breaks...

Dailykos is pretty much fluff. And they waste a lot of ink on misguided, unintelligent suppositions.

A suggestion...

How 'bout creating a timeline in summary form that emphasizes the documented events just before and just after (perhaps up to a week before and a week after) Mr. Lemme's tragic murder? Also, I think a brief summary of the known inconsistencies of the facts would be very helpful.

It appears that many people are not reading each post and are repeating things that were stated already. Having the two summaries I suggested would be helpful to anyone new to this blog who wants to quickly get "up to speed".

After reading the reports, there is one problem with the murder theory I wanted to mention.

It is egress and ingress ... entry and exit points into and from the motel room.

The room had a lock that can in general only be locked and unlocked from the inside - except with a special tool.

These locks are composed of a "U" shaped metal piece that is attached to and goes from a metal base on the jamb. There is a short, curved metal piece attached to a metal piece on the door, which has a ball, globe, and marble like end on it. When locked the "U" shaped piece wraps around and interlocks with the curved piece of metal with the ball, globe or marble shaped end to it. If you have been to a motel or hotel you have seen these safety locking mechanisms.

These two interlock to prevent the door from being opened (except for a slight opening). It is a standard motel safety lock. It can only be partially opened from the outside. This is a standard motel set up.

When the first officers arrived there they used a master key to open the locks, only to find that the lock described above prevented entry. It was locked ... meaning it was set from the inside.

They got the special tool, designed just for such purposes, from the motel office and were able to disengage the lock and enter the room.

This means that if Lemme was murdered there had to be another source of entry or the murderers somehow set the lock from the outside. The latter is questionable. Otherwise Lemme was the only person who could have set the room lock from the inside.

Anyone care to discuss that? I am playing devil's advocate here, cause any good theory must explain all the details.

At the risk of condescension, let me emphasize an obvious point. Ray Lemme was an INVESTIGATOR whose job was probing into WRONGDOING. There is ample evidence that he was about to expose ILLEGALITY BY PROMINENT PEOPLE.

Aside from all the forensic and timeline problems, and separating this from all politics, if an outside investigator had come in at the beginning and knew nothing more than the above, suicide would have been virtually eliminated as the cause of death.

It appears the Valdosta P.D. investigated the death (poorly, at that) without considering context or possible motives for murder. Did Shannon Floyd know what Lemme had been working on? Did she begin her investigation with a suicide mindset and seek confirmation of that, rather than considering motive, means, and opportunity...the basic criteria of a foul-play investigation?

Someone should ask Clint Curtis a key question, i.e., "Did you speak to Chief Childress while Lemme's death was being investigated, and did you make it clear to him that certain people might have had a strong motive for killing Lemme?"

This whole thing was treated so dismissively...no autopsy, a cremation, a finding of suicide, end of story. Nobody from the Florida D.O.T. bothers to ask for a broader investigation, nobody there starts his or her own inquiry, even though one of its own investigators dies suspiciously while on the job.

Finally, what about the D.O.T.'s insurance carrier? Ray Lemme was an EMPLOYEE. Presumably he had life insurance coverage. Did the company pay a death benefit for suicide? If so, did this conform to the master policy's terms and conditions? If not, did Mary Ann Lemme simply accept denial of benefits? Why hasn't the insurance company shown an interest in Lemme's death? They have their own investigators under contract, who are experienced in matters of suicide vs. murder; this is necessary, because most life insurance policies distinguish between suicide and other cause of death when determining eligibility for benefits.

With all the information provided on this site and others on Tom Feeney, any honest, decent candidate who ran against Feeney in the next election would WIN; as George Tenet would say, "IT'S A SLAM DUNK". This step to find someone to run against Feeney MUST BE DONE. Brad, who should be contacted in Florida? I realize the voting machine problem must also be taken care of. But once Feeney's constituents are provided with ALL the information from the web, they will be picketing the streets to have him removed from office. Find a good, honest opposing candidate!!! The FACTS in all this material can be presented so that no slander or libel occurs. The FACTS will defeat Mr. Feeney.

Dredd #320 - The murderers could have that particular "tool" you referred to which could "close" as well as "open" the lock from the outside???? I imagine the muderers have a lot of information and items provided to them from "on high". I remember from some web site, that Bush Senior employs former, even fake, "CIA" agents.

Robert #321 - The insurance investigation angle is a good one. Where are all the fearless (but extremely cautious) American patriots. (Have someone watch your back, and someone else watching his back, and someone else watching...etc. You need to backup your backups, and back them all up several times over).

The inside safety "lock" I mentioned in #320 can be viewed in photo "DSCF0003.JPG".

I had to enlarge the photo (they were all on one scan) at this link.

Will try to do some research to find out more about the locks and provide a link.

Peggy #323

I am looking for specifications on these things now. I checked one out a short time ago and so far there appears no way to close them from the outside. They can only be closed from the inside.

Thus, if there is not another door (which some hotel and motel rooms have) this must be explained.

Did the room have windows that opened? If so, it follows that a first-floor room would have been chosen for the hit to enable the murderer(s) to escape that way without risking injury from a leap.

The burden of proof remains on the Valdosta P.D. to show suicide. If Ray Lemme wanted to kill himself, there is no reason why he'd drive all the way to Valdosta to do it, no reason for him to call his boss from the road en route, and no reason to tell his wife he loved her in a suicide note when he'd already told her that before leaving home.

I think I've discovered something significant that may not have been mentioned before:

There's been talk about Mr. Lemme having a cell phone. All indications are that he didn't. That why he made calls from a pay phone. However, Lemme DID have a Metrocall pager in his car in the same area where the Valdosta P.D. found his wallet. The last number on the pager was 850-960-6969 then the numbers 911 at the end.

This important fact was noted in Valdosta P.D. Detective Craig Spencer's report. There is no mention of the pager, wedding ring or wallet in any of the property/evidence logs and inventories. The only mention of the wallet and pager is in Spencer's report. The gold wedding band was noted in Floyd's report. Why is it that Floyd went to the trouble of inventorying two dimes (20 cents) and some of the contents of the car, but not the wallet, pager and ring?

Also noteworthy is that Detective Spencer was the one who went to the convenience store, asked if they sold the double-edge razor blades and viewed the store's surveillance videos. Detective Floyd's report makes no mention of any attempts made by her to obtain surveillance video from the hotel or any other location.

Lastly, the area code 850 is in the Florida panhandle, ranging just east of Tallahassee to Pensacola. According to a reverse-look-up site, this number is assigned to someone in Panama City and Powertel, Inc. is the registered carrier. Can anyone help get the name of the person who was assigned the number listed on the pager at the time of the crime?

I think I've discovered something significant that may not have been mentioned before:

There's been talk about Mr. Lemme having a cell phone. All indications are that he didn't. That why he made calls from a pay phone. However, Lemme DID have a Metrocall pager in his car in the same area where the Valdosta P.D. found his wallet. The last number on the pager was 850-960-6969 then the numbers 911 at the end.

This important fact was noted in Valdosta P.D. Detective Craig Spencer's report. There is no mention of the pager, wedding ring or wallet in any of the property/evidence logs and inventories. The only mention of the wallet and pager is in Spencer's report. The gold wedding band was noted in Floyd's report. Why is it that Floyd went to the trouble of inventorying two dimes (20 cents) and some of the contents of the car, but not the wallet, pager and ring?

Also noteworthy is that Detective Spencer was the one who went to the convenience store, asked if they sold the double-edge razor blades and viewed the store's surveillance videos. Detective Floyd's report makes no mention of any attempts made by her to obtain surveillance video from the hotel or any other location.

Lastly, the area code 850 is in the Florida panhandle, ranging just east of Tallahassee to Pensacola. According to a reverse-look-up site, this number is assigned to someone in Panama City and Powertel, Inc. is the registered carrier. Can anyone help get the name of the person who was assigned the number listed on the pager at the time of the crime?

RE: #320, #324, #325

This link has info on these "night latches". They are also called "door guards".

I think Lemme couldn't have planned to spend the night nor did he (Mr. Clean) spend the night because he didn't have a toothbrush or toothbrush or shaving cream.

Therefore, when they "explained" to Lemme the night before that he would have to leave early because he checked in early it was either over the phone or done by someone else.

It's possilbe that the motel might have a different definition of "check-in" than we are thinking. Check-in to them might just be the time you have agreed to take the room - regardless of when you get there or when you leave or whether you phone it in or do it in person.

Agree, the motel surely has an easy way to get in even if the latch is done. If it's a fleabag motel they are certainly accustomed to having to do this on a regular basis. But, Floyd makes a BIG deal of how hard it was. Floyd's cohort makes a BIG deal also and even adds that on to the end of his report.

I think the missing cups are a huge smoking gun. They are clearly not in the police sketch and not listed in evidence. Yet they are the best place for fingerprints. It's one thing if prints were not checked and quite another if the cups go missing. Plus, one officer followed up at a convenience store checking to see if that store carried a certain type of razor. The owner of the store said no. BUT, the investigator went ahead and reviewed the store video anyway? Why. Why do that? Why sit through maybe 24 hours of video for nothing? Perhaps because SOMEOME bought the coffee there. Did the missing cup match the cups in that store? Did the coffee cup come from Valdosta or Tallahasee?

Also, Floyd said the floor towel was clean and so it wasn't brought into evidence either. DAMN her for doing this on purpose. She was also able to get the cup "suicided" and almost the photos as well.

You're right Snoopy, we need a spreadsheet with timeline in the first column and then people and their reported activities in the next columns. Each persons activity for that time would have to be backed up by some sort of evidence. That way all the inconsistencies would be less disruptive and patterns may emerge.

Robert, FDOT's inactivity is definitely a huge smoking gun. Unless Floyd convinced them they were 100% sure he committed suicide - no doubt about it. They appeared able to convince the coroner of that as well. Nonetheless, if I were an FDOT employee who knew he had a big case that was about to blow - I'd have done exactly what I am doing right now - questioning the suicide theory.

MMIIXX, I'll have to get in the tub over the weekend and check all this out. We know he didn't do it, or was forced to do it (more likely).

Snoopy, I jotted down that number yesterday and was trying to see if it spelled anything. Worth pursuing. So the pager was "suicided" along with the cup, the bathroom towel, cloth, credit card...

Hey people, when a door is locked from the inside and the only way in is to do a specialty opening of the door as a result, if you can not show there is more than one way in, end of case.

Stop, take a breather, deal with the egress and ingress issue. It is paramount.

If that cannot be resolved it was a suicide.

Hey people, when a door is locked from the inside and the only way in is to do a specialty opening of the door as a result, if you can not show there is more than one way in, end of case.

Stop, take a breather, deal with the egress and ingress issue. It is paramount.

If that cannot be resolved it was a suicide.

Hi Miss Persistent and to everyone else here making a positive contribution,

I had an odd occurence while trying to post #327- only that page on Brad's Blog timed out. I went to other pages on the site and they worked just fine. It took 15 minutes for things to return to normal. Sorry about the double-posting, but it happened because of the timeout problem I encountered.

There is something I wanted to add-

Panama City is about 120 miles to WSW of Tallahassee. Valdosta is about 80 miles to the ENE. I find it interesting that the Malibu's mileage wasn't noted in any crime scene report. Betcha that Mr. Lemme did have mileage records of some sort. Learning the mileage driven in the days before his death could yield further clues.

Snoopy, I had the same problem a little while ago, luckily I saved my post in Word and reposted a bit later.

Dredd, and the lock guys, the inconsistency is (again) with the police reports. It's clear it's easy to unlatch it from the outside and probably as easy to latch it from the outside. The motel people have to have that ability. Some of the reports note with ease that they went to get the special tool. Other reports (Floyd and cohort) say the lock had to be jimmied.

They showed there was more than one way in by being able to get in themselves.

The window may be egress option. But, there is no report of having checked any window, or curtains closed or open. As a former student of architecture, the police sketch does not indicate (in formal mechanical drawing or architectural drawing terms) that there was a window. Anybody live near who can go look?

Was the convenience store video saved or returned to the store?

Snoopy, we would have had to know where the mileage started in order to make sense of where it ended. Wouldn't we? Or do you have something else in mind? If I were there I would have felt the hood. Still, the reports say rigor mortis. I'm going to go look into the chemistry of that.

Hi Dredd,

I've had experience with such locks, but have never been so pissed at a hotel upon checking out as to try to set one from outside, but it sure looks like it could be done with a piece of string, or, say, a shoelace. Run yourself through it and tell me what you think. Of course you can't use string to get in, but getting out???

Dear Miss Persistent - Have you ever seen a hotel room without a window? I've stayed in some real fleabags, but as I recall every one had at least one window...

Dredd, I think the question is, "Is there a second way OUT?" If the murderers bolted the lock from the inside after killing Lemme and got out through a window, that would explain everything. It would also suggest Ray Lemme hadn't reserved the room himself, and that whoever did make the reservation asked for a first-floor room to make escape through the window easier.

The room certainly had a window. If it opened, there's no issue, as far as I'm concerned. If there was a second door, no issue. Only if the window was sealed does it explain why Shannon Floyd decided it was a suicide on the basis of "There was no way for a murderer to get out."

Even then, I'd be suspicious, Dredd. If the room had been reserved AND FIRST OCCUPIED on 6/29 by someone posing as Lemme, which seems more likely than that the motel's date machine was a day off, then that person and any confederates would have had 36 hours to jimmy the sealed window open and leave it in a position where it looked sealed but could be used for escape. With that much time to prepare, I suspect an experienced hired killer could arrange things in such a way that a detective might be fooled.

At least it's a possibility worth considering, in case there was no second door and no window that opened. If we settle on suicide, then why in the world would the Florida D.O.T. go out of its way to stifle the reopening of the case in December, 2004?
If it's an open-and-shut case, as you suggest would be indicated by the bolted door being the only way in or out, then nobody at the Florida D.O.T. would have had a thing to worry about.

Obviously, somebody there is very worried. And the higher up the food chain this goes, the more likely it is that the murder was carried out by people who planned things very carefully in order to show suicide.

Final point...if the door wasn't bolted by murderers after they killed Lemme, then it only could have been bolted by Lemme himself. Why would he do that, if he were planning to commit suicide? What does a dead person gain by making it difficult for people to find his body?

Regarding #334, the direction I was going in reference to mileage was that perhaps travel notes were made in the same notebook where the "suicide" note was written. Either that, or other mileage notations may have been entered on the receipts or business cards he had at the crime scene. I'm sure many of Mr. Lemme's prior travels were work-related and he probably had a habit of tracking mileage frequently. Back at the FDOT office, there must be records of his business travels and mileage involved. You can be certain that if he used State vehicles at work there will be detailed records of his FDOT travels.

Correlating any mileage log entries to the actual odometer might be useful for determining the routes (or detours) he took just before his demise. If there was an unusually high number of miles during the time just before his death, then there may be more to the story. The Panama City telephone number on the pager makes me wonder if he went directly to the Knight's Inn after leaving his house.

One more point regarding the motel room and possible alternate egress. This was Georgia in the summer...hot and humid. Even a fleabag motel would have air conditiong; they couldn't get anyone to stay there without it.

The likelihood is that the cooling unit was in the window. It should be easy to confirm immediately. If the window were otherwise sealed (and if it opened easily I don't see any issue here at all), that would present another possible route out.

Who are the suspects or other contacts in this case who may be located in Panama City? Or business associates of Yang or Feeney or Henry Lee? What is the connection with Panama City? What day and time did he call Panama City? The 911 would indicate he was being kidnapped/attacked.

Hey all. Speculation is like fire. Once started it never stops until all is consumed.

If you read my posts before I carefully read the reports, and what they do and do not say, I posted speculation too.

See #22 and #142 for example, where I speculated that Lemme had been drowned in the bathwater. Someone pointed out that there was no bathwater. I could have said "well it must have drained out then". I didn't ... I submitted to the evidence of record.

I have enough experience to know that if you become attached to a premise and fabricate "facts" as a result, ignoring known facts, there is no end to the fantasy that will result.

So, I slowed down, read everything carefully, to find out what had been said and what had not been said.

The cops blew it by not mentioning the "nite latch" or "door guard" and whether or not they checked for egress in the form of a window or another door.

I do not know if there is a window or another door because the reports have not shown any nor mentioned any.

But I do know that if there is only one way in and out and it was secured from the inside it was suicide.

I did some testing on the "nite latch" and "door guard" and there is NO WAY on the one I tested, which is like the one pictured in #329, to close it from the outside. Not the way it happened.

So that leaves the window and/or another door possibilities. Sometimes there are doors that join a couple of rooms so larger groups (lots kids for example) can use them as one facility.

But please folks lets not become rabid with a story of our own fabrication. Lets be really accurate bloggers and let the real and known facts dictate the story.

Even if Lemme committed suicide that does not disprove any of the other factors in the overall story. The spy factor is a known fact, overcharging is a known fact, and the Curtis affidavit is a known piece of evidence.

Even if Lemme committed suicide there could be nefarious reasons ... he could have been so scared, distraught from discovering those he had faith in were crooks, been threatened - including family, etc. etc.

But all those things must also rest upon facts of evidence rather than facts of fabrication.

Following is a quote from the police report: http://insider-magazine.com/stories/14.jpg"Small areas of blood appearing to be arterial spurts were present on the exterior side of the bathroom door, which was pushed back to the east wall, and on the east wall adjacent the bathtub. The location of the arterial spurts was consistent with the deceased being in a sitting position when the cuts were made."Now, look at the police sketch: http://insider-magazine.com/stories/17.jpgHow could the blood have splattered on to the EXTERIOR side of the bathroom door if Lemme cut his LEFT INSIDE arm from the "sitting" position he was found in the tub? The only way the blood could have gotten there is if Lemme was standing up and facing the door!

My points: How does the investigator reach such an unlogical conclusion based on the evidence? How does the investigator notice the blood on the bathroom door, but NOT the towel on the floor? What is going on here? This questions the credibility of the investigators. Are the police covering up their own mistakes now?

Time to call Internal Affairs.

If Ray Lemme drove 120 miles to Panama City on the day before he died (regardless of the reason), then turned around and drove 200 miles in the opposite direction on the same day to Valdosta, Georgia (for no evident reason), then for the Florida D.O.T. to not be curious about what was going on in his life at that time is doubly suspicious. If he so much as called Panama City and drove to Valdosta on the same day, it's something to wonder about

Folks, suppose your brother or husband was a detective with the Tallahassee P.D. He told you he'd been working on a "big case" that he was close to cracking. Then he's found dead, an apparent suicide, at a place he had no evident reason for being at just then. Further suppose that the Tallahasse Police Chief accepts the finding of the other department without questioning it, and still further suppose that after the other chief reopens the case, somebody in the Tallahassee P.D. requests that it be closed again.

How would you feel toward the Chief of Police in Tallahassee? Well, that's how Mary Ann Lemme and her daughter should feel toward her husband's bosses at the Florida D.O.T. If they aren't livid about this, it can only mean they're terrified for their own lives...which means there was no suicide.

Excellent point Robert #337 - why would he bother to lock himself in. The only reason to do that would be to give the "immediate impression" that it was done by himself. More than Lemme could have wanted to make that impression.

And #339, June in Georgia. Good point. The reports said the light was on but the AC was off.

In the drawing, the AC unit does show up on that outside wall, farthest side away from door.

Snoopy #338. Could he have been being paged by his wife from work? She said in her affidavit she was trying to reach him all day. 911 is used to say call right away, call now, it's extremely important.

Dredd #341, IMHO, the real proof would be to use the actual managers special tool and see if it could be locked from the outside. That doesn't mean we shouldn't pursue the window egress issue, and it doesn't mean you have to believe it was suicide.

Group think is not what we want to do right now when we are brainstorming. Brainstorming doesn't mean every idea has to be good or to pan out. But it does sometimes help another person think of something new. At least it has for me. As Snoopy was saying earlier, it would be good to have a spreadsheet.

#341 Dredd,

Although I think it's commendable that you tested the idea of locking one of those latches from the outside and it didn't work, it's far from scientific.

You must have these things in order to test the theory:

1) An identical hotel room door
2) An identical latch system installed exactly the way they were on room #132
3) An identical special "tool" that the police used to open it from the outside
4) The knowledge and skill required to perform such a maneuver

Short of those, one can not rule out closing the latch from the outside, thus one can not rule out foul play.

Furthermore, I see no logical reason why, if it is possible to "open" the latch from the outside, why it would be impossible to "close" the latch from the outside. It is a very simple mechanical device and there is no evidence suggesting you should not be able to "reverse" the process of opening the latch.

So far, the evidence suggests that the "closing the latch from outside" theory is a strong possibility and thus far has not been ruled out.

I agree completely. The reason we're doing this is because the people who SHOULD be doing it ARE NOT DOING THEIR JOBS.

When people act in a manner 180 degrees opposite from what might be expected of them, that alone is grounds for suspicion. Aside from the Lemme family, the people we'd think would be most concerned about Ray Lemme's actual fate would be his "friends" at the Florida D.O.T. He was their colleague, and engaged in investigative work in behalf of the agency.

But these folks are the ones most willing to accept the finding of suicide. Indeed, they have made an overt effort to prevent a contrary finding. Dredd, we should have to do this...but nobody else will. So if the speculation seems to get a bit far afield, put it down to detectives chasing every possible lead until they find the right connection (which they do).

Regarding Miss Persistent #334 and Mary Ann Lemme calling her husband from work, here's what I found from a December 6, 2004 article by Wayne Madsen,
Online Journal Contributing Writer, about the location of her employment:

-------------------------------

Mary Ann, worked as a secretary for Martha Walters Barnett, a partner with the politically-connected Holland & Knight law firm in Tallahassee, where she specializes in campaign finance and election law and government contracts.

Another Holland & Knight partner, Ginny Myrick, was appointed by Jeb Bush as the vice chair of the Florida Community Trust, a state land acquisition and grant program. Although officially a bipartisan law firm, even Democrats working for Holland & Knight largely support Jeb Bush.

-----------------------------

So, it couldn't have been her paging unless the number is assigned to a cell phone which she owned or borrowed. Too bad we don't know the date and time of the page. Most pager companies usually keep records of each page received for a certain amount of time for billing purposes.

As I said before, I wish we could find the name of the person to whom the originating number was registered to at the time. Did the Lemme's have friends or family near the Gulf Coast who may have been trying to help find him?

I looked at the drawing again and the way the sketcher drew the AC unit, one side of the AC line goes through the wall. That may indicate there was a window.

On livor mortis, I found that livor mortis is a maroon discoloration (bruise like appearance of the skin) indicating pooling of the blood at the lowest point - that is, his back would be discolored if his back was on the down side. Maybe that's what is on the neck. "If a body is found lying on its back with lividity apparent on the front side, this tells investigators the body has been moved since death."

http://adipocere.homestead.com/chemistry.html

http://www.mtmc.edu/acad...ision/forensic/paper.doc

For rigor mortis, there are stages (this is for temperate conditions):

Body warm, not stiff: Not dead more than 3 hours;
Body warm, stiff: Dead between 3 and 8 hours;
Body cold, stiff: Dead between 8 and 36 hours;
Body cold, not stiff: (Rigor mortis reverses itself) Dead more than 36 hours;

http://www.sciencenet.or...tures/soc/forensics.html

#348 Miss Persistent

Good research. Since their are numerous police reports stating that when they touched the body it was "Stiff and cold", we can state that he had to be dead for AT LEAST 8 hours.

His body was found no later than 1:36pm. 8 hours prior to that time would be 5:36am.

But he clearly checked out at 6:54am. If he ran back to the room and quickly killed himself, let's say he dies at 7:10am. 8 hours after that would be 3:10pm. The other problem with that is his suicide note is noted at 8:10. Now, even though it's possible he wrote the note the previous evening, why would he "sleep on it?".

This also suggests questions the authenticity of the time on the note.

Just more inconsistancies suggest foul play.

Hey y'all, there is a window in one of the photographs, the one with two chairs and a lamp. Facing the door from the inside, the door is on the left and the air unit is on the right.

Also, regarding the pager number and Panama City - if they route pagers like they do cell phones, it's possible whomever called him was just routed through Panama City - and it's possible it was his wife calling.

I just got my first cell phone (I hate phones) and it took me awhile to figure out why I was getting calls from Mobile, Alabama - turns out it was from calls being made from Huntsville and routed through Mobile - which is clear at the OTHER end of the state!

The 911 at the end is unusual - ALTHOUGH, before jumping to conclusions, I'd check to see if the number was from when his wife called him. She said she paged him several times but couldn't reach him, and was worried. She may tacked "911" on to the end of the number she put into the "call-back" message to let him know it was VERY IMPORTANT to call home. (It's a common code to indicate emergencies vs. call me when you can kinda messages)

Czaragorn #335

The reason the nite latch can not be locked from the outside is that the direction it must be pulled is opposite to the swing direction of pivot on the pinions/hinges.

To activate the mechanism the "U" shaped member must be swung to the fully open position, which swings it away from the door itself.

Then the other portion of the mechanism attached to the door is engaged into the "U" member by closing the door.

Only when the door is thereafter closed properly can you pull the "U" shaped member back the other way, locking the two together.

When one pulls on it with a string from the outside of the room that causes pressure toward the puller, which is the opposite direction it must go to swing closed and around the latch member.

The tip must swing away from the puller in an arc and would only go toward the puller in the last inch or so.

The string would have a zig zag shape and would have to be tied to the "U" shaped member before the door was pulled shut. Then the string would be pulled on. That could not cause the "U" member to travel away from the puller, but instead pulling on it would cause it to travel toward the puller.

Also, the string would still be attached and I did not see any string mentioned nor visible in the photos. Plus it would look suspicious to anyone observing this activity and would not be an efficient technique for professional hit men to use.

I tried this with string cause that is the only way it could possibly be locked from the outside because the door must be closed for the two members of the mechanism to go into place.

Only a string is thin enough to fit into and meander around the little Z-shaped crack between the door and the jamb when the door is closed.

The two members of the mechanism must be in place and the door closed to activate the locking mechanism by pulling the "U" shaped member back toward the door over the other fixed member.

Remember that this mechanism is designed to be locked from the inside with the door closed, obviously, and not from the outside.

Once engaged, however, the door can be pulled or pushed toward the inside for an inch or so until a space or gap appears ... then it locks at some point and the door will go no further.

Unlocking it from the outside can be done but it is not easy, even with the special tool.

Thanks for the thoughtful response, Dredd. Not having a specimen on hand, and having to go by my sometimes razor-sharp, sometimes sputtery memory, it seemed plausible. I wonder, though... A length of dental floss (waxed, sorry Mr. Zappa) could be looped around it, rather than tied, and pulled out without a trace (OK, better make it unwaxed) once the deed was done...

Also, and apologies if this has been discussed already, BUT..

regarding water in the bathtub..

Whether there was water in the tub or not during discovery should have been noted in the report - anybody run across that?

Also, his t-shirt appears to be wet up almost to his arm-pit, and that doesn't look like dried blood. In old one-piece bathtub/shower units (like the one in the hotel), it's not unusual for the tub to leak water out slowly around the drain, even when it's closed (Until recently I had the same kind of unit in my house, with that very problem).

Whether water was in the tub or not might be irrelevant, unless it shows up inside the watch as has been suggested.

I still don't get why his wife didn't push for investigation - I certainly would have, under the circumstances.

The following is PURELY THEORETICAL - NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT IT WHATSOEVER!!

Given all that was happening regarding the work he'd told her about, etc, the only way a wife with a husband in a prominent position would accept a verdict of suicide is either fear, OR (here's the speculation part, and I emphasize, there is NOTHING to back this up, it's a theoretical situation) IF she felt that there was embarrassing information about to come out about her husband that might have pushed him to commit suicide, and she accepted that as a cause of death rather than push for investigation that she thought might have uncovered that same information (I'm thinking in terms of blackmail here) I'll say it once more, there is thus far NO EVIDENCE for that - just another theory as to the "why" she didn't call for investigation.

And, Dredd - I remember reading about Houdini having himself locked in a super-secure safe one time and astouding everyone by freeing himself. He commented that safes are made to keep people out, not in, and that is was a simple matter to get out. Perhaps the inverse, converse, whatever of this principle could apply here. It does seem to me that almost any security device ever devised can be foiled, given human ingenuity.

Hi KestrelBrightEyes, regarding #350,

I think I need to clarify which phone number that was mentioned by the Valdosta P.D. Regardless of where the page is routed, the phone number displayed as the last page received was from a Panama Beach number. The number listed in the police report was sent by the person doing the page. Bear in mind that pagers do not work like Caller ID- you have to select the callback number that you want the receiver to see. The report did not indicate the actual phone number of the pager itself (another oversight).

Also note that Panama Beach is over 100 miles from Tallahassee. It is unlikely that the Lemme's, nor her employer, would secure a phone (landline or cell) with a long distance telephone number. That's not very practical, nor logical. No, that page probably came from someone other than Mrs. Lemme, but who? The police should have investigated this detail further.

KestrelBrighteyes #350 I did not see any photos with windows, nor does the "Sketch" show a window. Windows are usually drawn like doors, in that, the wall is shown as severed like where it shows the door.

Which photo shows the window (they are each named). Are you talking about DSCF0003.JPG?

That could be a window because there is a curtain there behind the chairs. But there is also a lamp covering the window which is strange. And it doesn't show from the outside shot of the door.

However, that would be the perfect place to set the nite latch from. Just reach around and lock it, then pull the window closed.

This assumes an opening window and that it was open. The cops make no mention of a window either unlatched or latched.

developing ...

There's a window, and an air-conditioning unit. If the window opens, the hit men could have exited through it. They would have requested a first-floor room. The room was in Lemme's name, so it means one of the hit men would have been impersonating Lemme since 6/29. That explains the timeline/date discrepancy.

Saying, "I'd like a room on the first floor" wouldn't have aroused suspicion, because some people have problems climbing stairs, and this place sounds as if it didn't have an elevator. If there were none available at ground level, they'd have found another place for the hit.

Even if the window were sealed, the air conditioner could have been removed to allow escape through that aperture, then pulled back into position in its wall cavity from the outside.

Either way, it would work as long as neither killer was extraordinarily large.

If Ray Lemme had been dead for at least 8 hours when his body was found, that strongly suggests he was killed in the middle of the night. That fits, because people climbing through an open window or other wall cavity during daylight hours would risk being seen.

While the link to the Valdosta Tech page included in comments above still exists, all info about Shannon Floyd is gone. Google's cached version has the same page but includes her info. Guess maybe the college didn't like all the hits this page was suddenly receiving! Interesting.

Mr. Lemme didn't have a cellphone???

I don't know the area, but there are rural areas where you can't get a signal. Still, a very good point.

Is anyone here a dailykos member? Please post a summary of this info there if you are.

This is especially timely given the recently discovered corruption links between Feeney/DeLay

O.K., Krestel. Let me take your speculation a bit further. The following possible scenarios might fit with a suicide, and with Mary Ann Lemme's odd willingness to accept the Valdosta P.D.'s decision.

1) Lemme was a pervert. Mary Ann knew it. When Lemme got close to the truth at the D.O.T., the people threatened by his investigation blackmailed him into silence by telling him they were about to spill the beans on his secret life with little boys. He killed himself in remorse.

2) Lemme had a gambling addiction. The mob was after him to pay up or else. He went to Valdosta to pay what he could. They weren't satisfied, and either rubbed him out or threatened his family, which caused him to go to pieces.

Either scenario might also explain why the D.O.T. wanted the investigation stifled, but only if Mary Ann Lemme had called one of his bosses and asked the D.O.T. to intercede, maybe to keep it out of the papers and prevent the daughter from finding out.

The problem here, Krestel, is that Ray Lemme's bona fides don't fit a pervert or compulsive gambler. Solid family man, Vietnam veteran, Air Force reservist, conscientious to a fault, and trusted with difficult work by a state agency.

Dredd #320 - The door and latch can be locked from the outside and opened from the outside in seconds with the right tools in experienced hands of a big and/or strong individual. I've spent hundreds of nights in those very same motel rooms and the only way to stop someone who wants to get in is with a chair jammed, wedged at an angle under that door handle.

You can enter or exit any old Holiday Inn styled motel built in the late 60's or 70's without a key. They all have (as the police pictures note) soft aluminum door frames that give under leverage from a flat Stanley or Sears $8.00 pry bar or long crow bar placed between the door and the aluminum frame. The ball latch you pictured and the one hanging from the steel door in the police pictures are the same. To align upon leaving the room you pull the door closed up to the aluminum frame and through the crack with a small diameter wire. You hook the swing latch pulling it back towards the door and unhook the wire. Then whoever opens that door after you leave will actually activate the locking of the U shaped swing latch with the ball. It's a piece of cake to do.

Also, those rooms have one entrance/exit and that’s the front door. The windows are permanently sealed and do not open. They were just tempered glass sealed in aluminum frames with a ground level mounted air conditioner.

FYI- my earlier posts said-

The motel Ray supposably stayed was an old ground floor outside entrance Holiday Inn style motel built in late 60's or early 70's. Those were built with "aluminum door frames". I can't tell you how many of those I've stayed in that the doors were jimmied from the outside. Just look at the middle of the aluminum door frames for pry marks. Crooks take a small flat pry bar jam it in the springy soft aluminum door frame leaning on the pry bar and pop the door open … they grab the wallets off the counter and run back out the door. In one night crooks could brake into two or three rooms in a row. The only way to stop them is to jam a chair at an angle under the door handle.

Anyway, the point of the above story is simply this; you can open and leave that particular type door/frame with a pry bar. You "lock the door dead bolt" close it up to the aluminum doorframe, hook the ball latch and pull it closed, spring the door with the pry bar and slide the dead bolt jam around the frame into the hole, bingo it's shut and now locked from the inside. It would take 3 or 4 seconds at the most. Also, sheriff report indicated door was locked a dead bolt from inside. That's an old ground floor outside

Dredd Your previous post said-

COMMENT #320 [link]
...Dredd said on 3/11/2005 @ 5:52am PT...

After reading the reports, there is one problem with the murder theory I wanted to mention.

It is egress and ingress ... entry and exit points into and from the motel room.

The room had a lock that can in general only be locked and unlocked from the inside - except with a special tool.

These locks are composed of a "U" shaped metal piece that is attached to and goes from a metal base on the jamb. There is a short, curved metal piece attached to a metal piece on the door, which has a ball, globe, and marble like end on it. When locked the "U" shaped piece wraps around and interlocks with the curved piece of metal with the ball, globe or marble shaped end to it. If you have been to a motel or hotel you have seen these safety locking mechanisms.

These two interlock to prevent the door from being opened (except for a slight opening). It is a standard motel safety lock. It can only be partially opened from the outside. This is a standard motel set up.

When the first officers arrived there they used a master key to open the locks, only to find that the lock described above prevented entry. It was locked ... meaning it was set from the inside.

They got the special tool, designed just for such purposes, from the motel office and were able to disengage the lock and enter the room.

This means that if Lemme was murdered there had to be another source of entry or the murderers somehow set the lock from the outside. The latter is questionable. Otherwise Lemme was the only person who could have set the room lock from the inside.

Anyone care to discuss that? I am playing devil's advocate here, cause any good theory must explain all the details.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The room is on the ground floor. Did they check to make sure the window was latched?

#358 Cool.

Can someone re-post the link that shows all the photos? I don't seem to have the same link. My link only shows pictures 1,2,4,5,7,8!

If you can see picture DSCF0007 - can you tell if the tip of the pen is pointing exactly at some writing on a piece of paper that is under the suicide page - can those words be discerned at all?

Robert Lockwood Mills #357 You stated "Even if the window were sealed, the air conditioner could have been removed to allow escape through that aperture, then pulled back into position in its wall cavity from the outside."

I think you should cite to some authority or testimony or how-to by professional hit men as to techniques used by such professionals.

To tear out an airconditioning unit, crawl thru, then pull it back in place without that being obvious by debris and damage is unlikely. And foolhearty at nite. It makes noise and arouses suspicion.

Professionals are smoothe as silk, not clumsy as drunken cows.

Also what is the evidence for a window? At this point only the fact that curtains show up in photo DSCF0003.JPG justify that assertion.

But it is not conclusive yet. Why a lamp in front of a window, and why the chairs in front of a window, and why no mention of a window in the reports or sketches? And why take out an airconditioning unit if there is a window right next to the door?

There is a lot of testimony about how the cops got in and if it was as easy as pushing the window open and reaching in and undoing the nite latch, wouldn't hey have done that? Here is what was said:

"Prior to [entry] Gartman and I had to Jimmy the door open. The doors upper lock was locked. Gartman had to try to open Room 131 First to see if we could get in. After Gartman practiced on Room 131, she tried to jimmy Room 132 open. After a few trys, Gartman was able to jimmy open the upper lock." (officer A. Marlow, suplemental report #1, pages 1-2)

"The swing latch can be seen from the outside as being locked from the inside ... I opened the door with an emergency key." (supplemental report #2, page 1 of 1).

"Villait escorted the officers to the room and they found that the upper swing latch was locked ... Officer Gartman used a special tool to open the lock provided by the motel." (Detective Spencer, Valdosta Police Detective Report).

"Villait stated that the maid told her that the room was undisturbed but the door was latched from the inside." (Detective Lynly L. Penn, Supplemental Detective Report, 7/28/03).

"A member of the hotel staff was unable to enter the room due to the door being locked so an officer was called to respond. Ptl. Gartman arrived, unlocked the security latch on the interior side of the door ..." (Dective Shannon Floyd, Valdosta Police Department, Crime Scene unit, Processing Report, 7/24/03).

Nothing conclusive about windows yet ...

RLM - At many fleabag hotels whose doors all face outside, the second floor has an outside 'balcony' that runs the length of the hotel. Therefore there would be no need to specially ask for a first floor room, because exiting via the window would land you right on the balcony.

As for closing a U-shaped latch, why would it be impossible to wrap the string/floss around the end of the U a few times, then wrap the string/floss AROUND the bolt with the round tip?

Wouldn't that cause the U-shaped latch to be pulled in the right direction? Then just keep pulling, hoping that the string/floss doesn't break/get caught in the door frame.

Am I making sense? Wrap the string around the end of the U-latch a few times, then wrap it once around the bolt with the round tip, then pull. Try it and see.

No mention of the window being checked is weird - but it's simple enough to put the lamp back in place once you exit the window.

G #360 I can't take your word for it ... that exalts you above everyone. I quote sources outside myself when making declarations like that.

We can question all we like and that is valid, but making conclusive pronouncements is not the function of peers. One juror has the same authority as another.

I explained what I did on one type of apparatus and using the technique you mentioned certainly would NOT work on the mechanism I tested.

The performance of the police, who know about these things too, (see #363) was that they had to practice and try several times before doing it. That is UNLOCKING it, which is within the design specs.

It is NOT designed to be LOCKED from the outside, but by the special tool it is designed to be UNlocked because there are situations where people die or otherwise are incapicatated and entry is needed. There is no need to lock it from the outside.

Cite some experts or third party data, the detectives, and the like.

Don't demand that you are right and others are wrong. Present evidence not argument.

Dredd #356 - yes, that's the photograph I was talking about. If you'll notice, the curtain is open a tiny bit on the side by the door, you can see the light from outside. That's not a flash reflection.

Snoopy #355 - perhaps it could have been his wife's cell phone number? His daughter's? His boss's? I'd wager that his wife would have called everyone she knew looking for him if he'd not have returned her pages, considering no one had seen or heard from him since that morning, and more than likely she wasn't the only one paging him.