READER COMMENTS ON
"CLINT CURTIS INVESTIGATOR'S 'SUICIDE' CASE REOPENED BY GEORGIA POLICE!"
(787 Responses so far...)
COMMENT #1 [Permalink]
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Fran
said on 3/8/2005 @ 11:59 am PT...
Great work. By all accounts, this is still a developing story. Saddly, we cannot trust our own law enforcement agencies. That appears to be true at all levels of the goverment. The truth in the end will come out. This country was not founded on a lie but the truth. I am positive that someone will speak up for Mr. Lemme so that his family can have closure. I know that I would want that for myself. God's speed to you Brad.
COMMENT #2 [Permalink]
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Catherine
said on 3/8/2005 @ 12:18 pm PT...
Keep at it, honey. People are being hurt and they need justice. Thank you.
COMMENT #3 [Permalink]
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lewis
said on 3/8/2005 @ 12:22 pm PT...
great reporting, brad. my only question is, where does it go from here? it seems like all the people who now need to start answering some tough questions can easily continue to stonewall, especially when the story is for most part being investigated by a blogger (i.e. you).
maybe it's time to get "60 minutes" involved. i know they are "mainstream media" and as such, can be pretty whimpy, but i also know they tend to love these kind of stories.
i realize the tendency of bloggers to want to go it alone and protect their turf --- don't blame you there one bit. still, it may be time to at least talk to some big media (with big money), and see if they'd be willing to team up with you on this.
just my opinion.
the other option is to get a democratic senator involved. somebody with some clout --- and money --- has got to start getting to the bottom of these unanswered questions. that, to me, is the bottom line at this point.
COMMENT #4 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/8/2005 @ 12:32 pm PT...
Somebody has to explain how Lemme checked out of the motel at 6:54 a.m. on 6/30/03, signed a "suicide" note at 8:10 a.m. (no date given), then got back into the same motel in time to be found dead on 7/1/03, without checking back in.
Did he occupy the same room the second time? The check-out clerk should be shown a photo of Lemme and asked, "Is this the man who checked out at 6:54 on 6/30?" The signature on the slip does seem to match the note.
It sure looks as if Lemme's second visit to the motel came after he was dead. One possibility to explain the handwriting on the note is that he had been told, "Write this note or we'll kill your wife and daughter, too." If Lemme had realized he was dealing with desperate men, that would have been a way to protect them, even in death.
COMMENT #5 [Permalink]
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Robert
said on 3/8/2005 @ 12:33 pm PT...
I agree completely with #3, you need some help with money and a big name media to push through the sludge you are sure to encounter. If you have that kind of help, perhaps the police will be more apt to really solve the case, even if they are pressured by outside influences, such as Feeney, Yang, etc. You're doing a super job Brad!
COMMENT #6 [Permalink]
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Nana
said on 3/8/2005 @ 12:49 pm PT...
People depressed enough to kill themselves, don't
go to work early, or get excited about a case.
A person planning suicide is not involved in the
future, because they feel like there is no future.
COMMENT #7 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/8/2005 @ 12:57 pm PT...
#3,#5
It is my current understanding that this is the district of Cynthia McKinney ... or at least she is from Georgia and may be able to help.
Anyone from georgia out there who wants to contact her?
COMMENT #8 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 3/8/2005 @ 1:01 pm PT...
From what I have read on this site in the last several months, it seems to me that Brad has been trying to get big media interested in this case for a long time. So there's no need to be concerned about "a blogger trying to protect his turf." The thing to be concerned about, as far as I can tell, is that no big media source has enough courage to go where Brad is willing to go.
I would be surprised if any high-profile politician has enough courage either. But then again, if we make enough noise, we might be able to embolden some of them. It's worked once or twice before.... for that reason, I think we should all work as hard as possible to attract some serious attention to this story. Each in his or her own way, of course.
Got any pajamas? Got any beer? Ready, set, go!
COMMENT #9 [Permalink]
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czaragorn
said on 3/8/2005 @ 1:03 pm PT...
Brad, you're doing us all proud. Please keep up the good work, and watch your back. And if you need a good proofer (the past tense of "to lead" is "led" not "lead" for example) I'll be happy to proof anything you feel might need proofing, which along with writing and translating is what I do for a living, gratis, just to get the first gander at the great stuff you dig up! Until such time, bra...
COMMENT #10 [Permalink]
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tashiro
said on 3/8/2005 @ 1:13 pm PT...
Here is a link to Shannon Floyd the new instructor at Valdosta College.
COMMENT #11 [Permalink]
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G
said on 3/8/2005 @ 1:18 pm PT...
COMMENT #12 [Permalink]
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dab
said on 3/8/2005 @ 1:21 pm PT...
great story brad. i assume you have found this already, but didn't see it in the story or comments. shannon floyd is at valdosta technical college as a law enforcement instructor. the announcement can be found here (half-way down the page): www.valdostatech.edu/news/index.asp
COMMENT #13 [Permalink]
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cheryl
said on 3/8/2005 @ 1:38 pm PT...
Be careful Brad. These people hurt people.
COMMENT #14 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/8/2005 @ 1:43 pm PT...
It is my understanding that suicide is a selfish act by a severely depressed (hopeless) person and is often intended to hurt others. It is also my understanding that self-mutilation is a form of blaming and punishing one's self.
If true, and I cannot swear that it is, the suicide note does not seem to fit with the self-punishment style of death.
COMMENT #15 [Permalink]
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KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/8/2005 @ 1:44 pm PT...
To start with, I'd bring in a handwriting expert on the signature thing, and submit samples of Lemme's handwriting to be compared with both the note and the signature. Yes, he might have written the note under duress and to protect his family. But, look at the way the word "family" is underlined - I can't say why, it just feels odd for some reason. Besides the underline, doesn't it seem he'd say something personal to his wife and daughter in the note? Just a hunch, and maybe I'm out in left field, but...
The problem is, if there are people in power keeping the case from being investigated, it would be hard to get anything done without hiring a private independent investigator, and they cost big bucks.
Unfortunately, that part of the Clint Curtis/Tom Feeney story may have to be investigated after the fact, meaning after all the other dominoes fall. Going at it from the other end may be the only way to solve the crime once and for all. With the photos on the 'net, at least it'll be harder to destroy that particular evidence.
Too bad Soros doesn't have a bone to pick with Feeney, that kinda financial backing could make a dent. Still, Feeney is bound to have made some enemies over the time of his career, maybe some of them will come forward before all is said and done. BTW, just out of curiosity, he's up for election again in 2006 isen't he? Who's running against him, any idea yet?
Good job Brad. Take care of yourself, you're bound to be making some bad people nervous.
COMMENT #16 [Permalink]
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Bishop Jim Burch
said on 3/8/2005 @ 1:46 pm PT...
Thank you for this valuable service you do by not letting this subject just go. We need to know the truth, and it has not yet been found. Keep going!
COMMENT #17 [Permalink]
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anart
said on 3/8/2005 @ 1:48 pm PT...
Yes, you've done a great job, but you're never going to get anyone in a position of power to touch this - the people behind it are more powerful and more rich and are very very interested in keeping the status quo. You can't look at the past decade in this country and not see the increase in a blatant pattern of lies, deception and murder by those in power - and those with lesser power often don't have the will to risk their own meal ticket- and those who do, the real truth seekers who still believe that we have a chance to change anything end up dead. If any democratic politician cared about the truth, the election would have been contested and the burden of proof placed on the GOP - which, we all know, never came close to happening.
COMMENT #18 [Permalink]
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Dazy
said on 3/8/2005 @ 1:48 pm PT...
Hey this is some kinda work Brad!! You ROCK...
Question...anyone know what happened to Lemme's work, his files and information that he said had linked all this Curtis info to the top? Is the wife in possession of his work, or did it evaporate into thin air??
I put NOTHING past the Bush regime...i don't doubt murder could be involved in regards to any power plays by Bush and Co. No doubts whatsoever...
COMMENT #19 [Permalink]
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KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/8/2005 @ 1:52 pm PT...
You might also have a hard time getting to Shannon Floyd now - sounds like she may have already been warned not to speak with you or anyone else about the case.
Any chance of getting the GBI involved? I've found state agencies are more willing to help in some cases than local agencies, at least here in Tennessee. Of course, that may not hold true for someone in a position in the US House of Representives.
COMMENT #20 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 3/8/2005 @ 1:59 pm PT...
TO ALL INVESTIGATORS,
CONSIDER CREATEING A SUICIDE PASSWORD TO GIVE TO YOUR LAWYER.
Example,
I …………………BEING OF SOUND MIND AND BODY ON THIS DAY ………………… PROMISED TO INCLUDE THE FOLLOWING “SUICIDE PASSWORD” IN ANY AND ALL “SUICIDE NOTES OR MESSAGES” LEFT BY ME IN THE EVENT OF A SELF-INFLICTED INJURY OR DEATH.
I FURTHER STATE THAT IN THE AVENT OF MY DEATH BY ANY MEANS, BE TREATED AS SUSPIOUS AND AN AUTOPSY SHOULD BY PROFORMED IF THE ABOVE “SUICIDE PASSWORD” (OR PHRASE) IS NOT INCLUDED IN ANY ALLEGED “SUICIDE NOTE” ACCREDITED TO ME ON MY DEMISE.
SIGNED ……………..
WITNESSED …………………
I'm not a lawyer but surely something like this could let family and friends know that their loved one chose their course of action and their death was not the result of "external influence or pressure".
P.S. Was the vehicle impounded as there may be evidence relating to the possible tranport of Mr. Lemme (across a state line)?
COMMENT #21 [Permalink]
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Pale Rider
said on 3/8/2005 @ 2:04 pm PT...
:rolleyes:Just another pathetic liberal who couldn't deal with the fact that President Bush won the election fair and square.
COMMENT #22 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/8/2005 @ 2:05 pm PT...
The method used is highly unusual in males. The most prevalent method is gunshot, with hanging coming in after that. Slashing like that is quite rare.
And as the blood level got low wouldn't hallucination and self preservation mentality take over in a dream or semi-conscious or weakened mental state leading to movement from ... or within the bathtub in a primitive protective automatic system ... kinda like knee jerk.
He looked docile like no movement of any significance had taken place. That is strange.
A Freedom of Information Act request to the FDOT and the Valdosta Police might lead to the person in the FDOT who was talked to.
Also, the family should have credit card billing to show the dates the credit card company received the billing on checkin and checkout ...
COMMENT #23 [Permalink]
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Losing Faith
said on 3/8/2005 @ 2:10 pm PT...
There are some strange circumstances here and at the very least some inadequate investigation, but I'm not completely convinced of the receipts pointing to anything but wonky equipment. The price is the same which would inicate that check-in and checkout were the same day, not 3 days apart.
COMMENT #24 [Permalink]
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Pale Rider
said on 3/8/2005 @ 2:14 pm PT...
But Dredd, maybe he was "in touch" with his feminine side and that's why he chose the method of suicide that he did. He looked "docile" because he was probably reconciled to his death which is very common in suicidal people.
COMMENT #25 [Permalink]
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MrBlueSky
said on 3/8/2005 @ 2:16 pm PT...
Good job Brad.
We're all behind you 100% here!
I think it may be time to notify Michael Moore (so we get everything on tape) and then show it in movie theaters across the country.
Heaven forbid the Mainstream Media should ever do anything about this.
Make it big Brad... that's the only way to keep the ball rolling, especially when the evil people think you are getting too close.
Like I said, though, we are all with you here.
MrBlueSky
COMMENT #26 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/8/2005 @ 2:16 pm PT...
Wonderful, selfless work, Brad. We're proud of you.
I'm glad that you are becoming more visible, with media interviews and all, because the more people that know about you and what you are doing, the safer you are. Poor Lemme wasn't a public figure - yet.
COMMENT #27 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/8/2005 @ 2:29 pm PT...
This is a headline link on Raw Story.
COMMENT #28 [Permalink]
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DJ Nelson
said on 3/8/2005 @ 2:41 pm PT...
There is an incredible number of political murders going on starting with my friend an d honest to a fault, Sen Paul Wellstone.This was no accident.Just like John Kennedy Jr. and Mel Carnahan.Identical circumstances.We now have the greatest criminal organization ever running this country. Truth is the only possible way to save all of our butts.The NWO will spare no one that stands in it's way. The Zionist Jews now control everything in this country. The entire media,the entire government,the banking system. This may have to come to fghting fire with fire with millions of armed citizens.This is he one thing they fear most. GW Bush once said to departed reporter Sarah McClendon."If the people ever find out what we are doing, they will chase us down the street and lynch us.The emporer of Japan once commented I fear we have awakened a sleeping giant. WW 2. Lets wake up America. It doesn't have have to go this way.
COMMENT #29 [Permalink]
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Gerri
said on 3/8/2005 @ 2:46 pm PT...
Brad, Thank you for having the courage to report this stuff. I was blogging yesterday and a read a blog about Hunter S. and allegdly he told a friend that he was working on a big story about 911 and had some evidence that the World Trade Center was also bombed in that there were explosives in the building . He also said to the friend that he was affraid he would be "suicided" Brad check Sander Hicks interview with Daniel Hopsicker. Didnt't the first person to write about W's drug habit commit suicide.
COMMENT #30 [Permalink]
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G
said on 3/8/2005 @ 2:49 pm PT...
It's not uncommon for chain motels to run the check in tickets (1st receipt) generally around "midnight' the day you check in ... and that date appears on the ticket. Its really odd they would run one at at 6:44PM the night of check in ... thats very, very early... unless they post arrival times?????
Generally speaking, they could issue both receipts at check in (arrival time) if you pay at the "same time". Then both receipts would be time stamped within a couple of minutes. However, 99% of the motels I stayed at wouldn't do that. Signing a master, Visia, AMX card receipt the morning of check out is standard practice.
What bothers me is the date and time differences. I have stayed at hundreds of motels and believe me I've tried on many occassions to have someone alter the day and/or time on those very same receipts without success. Even while the clerk has a crisp, new $20 bill waving back and forth in front of their face.
With "chain" motels, I believe Knights Inn's is one, the dates are controlled by corporate hqtrs computer on the check in ticket and the bank on credit card receipts. You can't change those dates or times and they are never wrong".
Nana #6 brought up a good point .... depressed people to not get up at 5:30 AM to check out of a motel.
Also, did he talk with his wife the night of check in (29th)???
Check when the motel runs the days "check in tickets" (1st. receipt). That 6:44PM time is very, very early.
Either he was DOA in a trunk at check in time.... or on a spur of the moment decision he met someone at the motel? Why was he there?
The only thing you know for certain is ...someone shows up twice at the motel front desk ... and if it was Ray .... then someone was waiting for him in the motel room after he checks out on the 30th???
Say, he was a military guy ... shouldn't the government have his fingerprints??? Would the fingerprints show up on the motel copy of the ticket and/or bank copy of the receipt?? What happened to his receipts?? Do the police have them checked for fingerprints??
I would think "60 Minutes" would love this investigation.
COMMENT #31 [Permalink]
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nunya
said on 3/8/2005 @ 3:09 pm PT...
":rolleyes:Just another pathetic liberal who couldn't deal with the fact that President Bush won the election fair and square."
Pail Rider: some drunken snot bag who hangs over a pail all day because he is about to barf from mixing fru fru drinks and beer.
What makes you think he was a liberal, or even a democrat? Just because he wasn't a wannabe cop, president of his Lutheran church congregation, and wannabe cop and Republican, like BTK?
It does get pretty damn strange when you begin to look into the connections between this, Danny Casolaro, INSLAW, BCCI, Iran-Contra, The Christic Institute, and Gary Webb. Guess who is back in the government today. All the major players, some who were even convicted, in the Iran-Contra affair. I am a professional cynic and skeptic, and this stinks to lower than low hell.
COMMENT #32 [Permalink]
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Jeff
said on 3/8/2005 @ 3:10 pm PT...
You are a brave individual Brad! I admire you. Hang tough and that suicide password thing might not be a bad idea. I got here from www.rawstory.com. This story is spreading. si submitted this page to mm.
COMMENT #33 [Permalink]
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Bob Bilse
said on 3/8/2005 @ 3:15 pm PT...
I've been hoping we'd hear meore on this case. The timing of a "suicide" makes no sense in his case, and I hope this will open more doors that need to be opened for Mr. Curtis' case.
COMMENT #34 [Permalink]
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nunya
said on 3/8/2005 @ 3:21 pm PT...
Hey pail rider, even though your wife has infrequent ablutial urges, like you, I do her while you are at work, and she loves it the liberal meat.
DJ Nelson, that was Admiral Yamamoto who said that, not the Emperor, and he was shot down in a plane in an operation intended to kill him, but not necessary to make it look like an accident. So was Dag Hammerskjold. So it happens, but you are going off into LaRouchian tin foil hat land, bubba.
COMMENT #35 [Permalink]
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Dissue
said on 3/8/2005 @ 3:27 pm PT...
Shannon Floyd is teaching at Valdosta Technical College. See:
http://www.valdostatech.edu/news/index.asp
"Shannon Floyd New Law Instructor
Shannon Floyd joins the faculty of Valdosta Technical College as the Law Enforcement Instructor. She will teach in the new Criminal Justice program that began January 6, 2005.
She holds a Master of Public Administration degree and a Bachelor of Arts in Criminal Justice degree, both from Valdosta State University. Floyd taught as an adjunct professor in Criminal Justice for Valdosta State from 2003-2004. While at the university as a student, she worked for the VSU Department of Public Safety.
Her professional experience includes work with the City of Valdosta Police Department as a forensic specialist, firearm examiner, detective and crime scene technician as well as patrolman. She has also worked as a private investigator and held an internship with the Georgia Bureau of Investigation.
Floyd holds certifications as an Identification Technician, the Basic Peace Officer Certification, Identification of Marijuana by Microscope Certification and a Smith & Wesson Armorers Certification. She is the Membership Committee Chair for the South Georgia Chapter of the Police Benevolent Association of Georgia, Inc. and a member of the Peace Officers Association of Georgia. She published an article, “Why Education is Important” in the Georgia Troopers’ News Journal in the Spring/Summer 1995 edition."
There's a picture of her on this page as well.
Thanks, Brad, for all of your great work on this issue! I agree that staying in the public eye might help keep you safe, but be careful!
COMMENT #36 [Permalink]
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Scott
said on 3/8/2005 @ 3:34 pm PT...
Brad this is the first time I read about this and it is incredulous. Clearly there are some stark inconsistancies that probably indicate foul play. A ninth grade HS student could complete a better investigation than it appears the Valdosta Police Department are capable.
It saddens me to no end to see that local police men and woman will compromise themselves and succumb to political pressure and bury a probable murder case.
Could you post the names, addresses, emails and telephone numbers of any government officials and employees so I can contact them directly and encourage them to follow through on their investigation.
Thank you.
COMMENT #37 [Permalink]
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Pale Rider
said on 3/8/2005 @ 3:35 pm PT...
[quote]What makes you think he was a liberal, or even a democrat? Just because he wasn't a wannabe cop, president of his Lutheran church congregation, and wannabe cop and Republican, like BTK?[/quote]
I made the assumption because he was investigating a wild assed conspiracy about election fraud. Quite simular to the cries of "massive" numbers of voter intimidation in Florida that, somehow mysteriously DID NOT result in any court cases.....hmmmmm. Must've been because there wasn't any. Even the race baiting Jesse Jackson couldn't get any factual cases scraped up to form a civil suit.
COMMENT #38 [Permalink]
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KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/8/2005 @ 3:36 pm PT...
The inconsistencies with the times and dates can not be explained away - check-ins, check outs, phone calls, witnesses, even his watch stopping (Was it a wind-up? Was there a REASON it was laying on the bathroom counter and just "stopped" at 12:54 on the 30th?) Didn't someone see Lemme at a payphone that morning?
Has anyone seen the phone records for the hotel (not just the room) and for Lemme's house and the company he worked for during that time period?
COMMENT #39 [Permalink]
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Brad
said on 3/8/2005 @ 3:47 pm PT...
Busy with much here for the moment guys, so haven't gotten to read all comments yet.
But to quickly respond to Lewis who said in #3 above:
maybe it's time to get "60 minutes" involved. i know they are "mainstream media" and as such, can be pretty whimpy, but i also know they tend to love these kind of stories.
60 Minutes, and other major news organizations know about this story. I have no "turf" I'm interested in protecting here. In fact, before I released the original Curtis affidavit, I offered the entire story to a major newspaper and would have *much* preferred they ran with the story than I.
Since then, I have been contacted by scores of major media organizations, and have always told them I'm happy to help them in *any* way, and give them *everything* I've got.
I'd *love* to have anyone else take over the story...Until then, it seems I need to keep on reporting it.
Things may change soon though. We'll see...
COMMENT #40 [Permalink]
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Potemkin
said on 3/8/2005 @ 3:50 pm PT...
First and foremost, I wish to extend my deepest sympaties to Mr. Lemme's family and loved ones. I cannot imagine how painful it must have been to experience such a tragic loss so suddenly and so unexpectedly --- no matter what the cause. Then to have these pictures splattered across the internet, along with complete strangers dissecting the "facts"...it just must be really unbearable. I am so sorry.
Brad, I respect your caution and your inner-struggle regarding the link you have posted to the crime scene photos. Because you waited to post the link, continued to investigate the "oddities" of the Valdosta police report; as well as attempt to penetrate Capt. Childress's non-stonewalling stonewalling of past and recent events; and because Mr. Lemmes untimely and unusual death DOES ultimately pertain to the Clint Curtis story; I can only conclude that you have done the right thing.
This whole thing smacks of tabloid journalism. Certainly not because of you, your work, or because of Clint Curtis, but because the whole convoluted mess reads like a B-grade movie. Unfortunately, this is no movie. It's real. And it's really sad.
I guess the one question that keeps swirling in my mind is this: If Mr. Lemme was purposefully targeted and killed, why then would the perpetrator(s) stop there? It seems to me, they would want to..um...take care of, shall we say?... Mr. Curtis as well.
Keep up the good work, Brad. You and Clint please stay safe.
COMMENT #41 [Permalink]
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Teresa
said on 3/8/2005 @ 4:00 pm PT...
Well, well, well, well, well. Looks like the heat is on.
Teresa Heinz Kerry just publically stated:
"COUNTING THE VOTES: Heinz Kerry is openly skeptical about results from November's election, particularly in sections of the country where optical scanners were used to record votes.
"Two brothers own 80 percent of the machines used in the United States," Heinz Kerry said. She identified both as "hard-right" Republicans. She argued that it is "very easy to hack into the mother machines."
"We in the United States are not a banana republic," added Heinz Kerry. She argued that Democrats should insist on "accountability and transparency" in how votes are tabulated.
"I fear for '06," she said. "I don't trust it the way it is right now."
the coming end
COMMENT #42 [Permalink]
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Pale Rider
said on 3/8/2005 @ 4:05 pm PT...
To Teresa Heinz (Note: Teresa is not using her husband's last name anymore. One can only assume that this is because she doesn't want to be associated with the loser.): Please provide some proof of your hair brained supposition.
COMMENT #43 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 3/8/2005 @ 4:13 pm PT...
re #42. She posted the link. What the heck else do you want?
You haven't posted any references to anything you have said, so what does that say about you? Troll.
COMMENT #44 [Permalink]
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Brad
said on 3/8/2005 @ 4:23 pm PT...
In case Pale Rider missed it, Raymond Lemme was an Army Reservist.
He was also investigating the case as part of his *job* at the Florida State Inspector General's office.
You might want to check a few more facts in the case before jumping to conclusions which will likely make only *you* look silly.
As well, Clint Curtis was a lifelong Republican up until very recently. Just in case you missed that part as well.
COMMENT #45 [Permalink]
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peterpont
said on 3/8/2005 @ 4:30 pm PT...
Gee Brad, I haven't used a double-edged razor blade since I was a kid. Is the blade consistent with the shaving gear he used? Did he have additional blades with him?I don't think you can buy just one. How did he carry it with out cutting something or himself. And speaking of cuts.
He was righthanded, correct? and did his right hand have any cuts near the fingers that would have had to grip the blade? Not playing amatuer detective here, just curious and wonder why no one who investigated was. And another thing. Look at the organized way everything is laid out on the vanity top--Hardly the sign of a "distraught " man.( looks more like a valet did the job)
I question the following-the lack of any information that indicates a desire to die. He had help and any real police investigater would have looked for the obvious things that I have pointed out, and probabley a lot more. This is just another example of Southern hospitality in reverse
Take care Brad
Peter
COMMENT #46 [Permalink]
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p.lukasiak
said on 3/8/2005 @ 4:32 pm PT...
one question:
What happened to Lemme's body?
Although there was clearly no autopsy, a number of people (including mortuary/funeral parlor employees) might remember if there was considerable bruising as there appears to be on Lemme's neck. (and, given his posture, this is not the kind of bruise that one would see as a result of post-mortem polling of blood at lower points of the body.)
COMMENT #47 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/8/2005 @ 4:33 pm PT...
Whenever right-wingers start to appear here, it means only one thing...they're nervous. Suddenly, we have a flood of "loser" messages again.
Thanks again, Brad. And thanks to you, Teresa. The genie is squirming inside the bottle.
COMMENT #48 [Permalink]
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Ilene
said on 3/8/2005 @ 4:41 pm PT...
Sorry to go back so long on string, but I just got a chance to read through these now. In reference to #28, DJ Nelson talks about a possible conspiracy and even mentions his friendship with Paul Wellstone, and then, out of the blue, throws in this bit of anti-semetic drivel "The Zionist Jews now control everything in this country. The entire media,the entire government,the banking system." For centuries, Jews have been blamed for everything wrong with the world and I resent having to read this same garbage on this site. What Brad is doing is fantastic and to have such anti-semitic shit attached to this discussion is uncalled for - especially from someone who claims that Paul Wellstone, a Jew, was a friend of his. I can actually stomach the trolls because I know where they are coming from. But we are supposed to be the intelligent ones who rise above that - only to have one of our own insert such garbage.
COMMENT #49 [Permalink]
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loretta
said on 3/8/2005 @ 4:49 pm PT...
i knew from the get go all was not right.just got turned on to this site.it's great keep up the good job with keeping us informed,, :O :O
COMMENT #50 [Permalink]
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Bando Bling
said on 3/8/2005 @ 4:50 pm PT...
To commit suicide is not easy. One has to be really depressed to do this. In a clinical depressed situation how can Lemme be excited about his 'work'. Things don't add up here. Things are fishy enough here. A chinese mob hit cannot be ruled out. Keep going Brad!!
COMMENT #51 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 3/8/2005 @ 4:51 pm PT...
re #48 this may not be the place for such a discussion, but since it got started here there's probably no better place for it.
-- How do you know that DJNelson is "one of our own". Have you heard from him before? Could he not be a troll? I'm not saying he is or isn't, I'm just asking how you can be so sure.
-- How do you know that his remark "The Zionist Jews now control everything in this country. The entire media, the entire government, the banking system" is "drivel"? What if it's true? If it is true, that would explain a lot of things that don't otherwise make any sense. So ... if you can prove he's wrong then please do so. But just throwing the term "anti-semetic" at him doesn't cut it. At least not for me. Again I am not claiming that he's right or wrong. I would like to see some evidence. On both sides.
COMMENT #52 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/8/2005 @ 4:57 pm PT...
Exactly right. Stick to facts and leave the racial and ethnic crap to the other side.
Fact: Raymond Lemme said he was on the verge of breaking a major political scandal involving Feeney, Yang, and the Florida Department of Transportation. Then he died by mysterious and unexplained means.
Fact: He checked out of a motel a day before his body was found inside that same motel.
Fact: Lemme had no reason to be depressed. On the contrary, he was energized by the success of his investigation. He was also looking forward to his daughter's wedding.
Fact: Investigators in Valdosta, Georgia are conspicuously avoiding discussing the evidence. And, having reopened the investigation in December, 2004, they suddenly closed it again after speaking to the Florida Department of Transportation, which might have been complicit in the very wrongdoing Lemme was investigating.
Fact: There was no reason for Lemme to have been in Valdosta in the first place, except if he had been drawn there by someone who promised to help with his investigation. However, there is strong reason for a murderer to have staged a fake suicide in Georgia...unlike Florida, Georgia has no mandatory autopsy requirement.
COMMENT #53 [Permalink]
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KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/8/2005 @ 5:05 pm PT...
COMMENT #54 [Permalink]
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Teresa
said on 3/8/2005 @ 5:05 pm PT...
The Rothschild family is in control of much of the money in this world. They are of Jewish descent and financed the creation of Israel. They are powerful politically, and propel Zionist concerns forward in world affairs.
Zionist Jews probably don't control everything, but they do control a lot.
COMMENT #55 [Permalink]
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Adam
said on 3/8/2005 @ 5:07 pm PT...
Wow, Winter Patriot, I am truly disgusted. What DJNelson said was CLEARLY anti-semetic cand untrue. Nobody is infallible and for you to try to cover up for him just because he's "one of us" is foolish and counterproductive. I am quite disappointed.
COMMENT #56 [Permalink]
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NYCee
said on 3/8/2005 @ 5:12 pm PT...
Its my understanding that Clint Curtis did speak with several sena†ors/reps ... during the period after the so-called 'election' when Conyers was holding hearings, etc.
I am shocked that nothing has exploded re Feeney. I have such a strong feeling in my gut that he was involved in foul play with vote-rigging ... and ... more.
He made a very bad (viscerally so) impression on me during the stolen election fiasco of 2000, when all eyes and much media was on Florida, including the legislature. I took a very strong disliking to the man. I wouldnt have given him a second thought, but once this story surfaced, after the election ... that memory snapped right back.
So, what did happen with the senators who spoke to Clint?
COMMENT #57 [Permalink]
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Julia Davis
said on 3/8/2005 @ 5:19 pm PT...
I am glad to hear they are finally going to attempt to discover some justice in this case. These photos just do not show a sucide situation, just to neat for my liking or taste. Note is fishy too, daughter getting married soon. Why would he kill himself when he is about to walk down the the church with his baby girl on his arm. This is not logical or make any sense to me as I am sure it does not for most individuals reading about this sad story.
COMMENT #58 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 3/8/2005 @ 5:20 pm PT...
Re #55: Adam wrote:
"Wow, Winter Patriot, I am truly disgusted. What DJNelson said was CLEARLY anti-semetic cand untrue. Nobody is infallible and for you to try to cover up for him just because he's "one of us" is foolish and counterproductive. I am quite disappointed."
Hey Adam: slow down, and read what I wrote again. (comment #51) ... I am not covering up for anybody. I did not say he is "one of us", it was Ilene who said that, and in fact I challenged her to prove it. I even suggested the possibility that he could have been trolling.
I'm not taking sides here, I am only asking questions. I want to know from both DJNelson and Ilene whether they can back up what they wrote. That's all.
COMMENT #59 [Permalink]
...
FRANCES LEE.... BRIGHT
said on 3/8/2005 @ 5:23 pm PT...
the taking of power fraudulently was done by many in this nation. they know they are guilty. They know some one could talk. This murder may be the thing.. that screws them up. A good private decective is what... the lemme family needs. A man who has no fear. A man who knows.. how to get the facts, no matter who tries to hide them. I am going to write to the FBI a personal letter and I am going to tell them.. that if anything happens to you or to Clint Curtis.. I will know they were involved. Where is the justice? Heaven forbid if Gonzales or Aschroft acts.. like they are doing their jobs... eeeeeeeeegads.. they are as corrupt as tom feeney. Maybe some one at the FBI... just one person.. is not.. maybe Mueller? stay safe.. you guys... we are all watching and praying.. and everyone I see I tell them to read brad blog.
COMMENT #60 [Permalink]
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Maezeppa
said on 3/8/2005 @ 5:24 pm PT...
What a sickening feeling I had reading this latest chapter in the Curtis case.
It seems so much more plausible that Lemme was murdered than was not.
How I wish for the day this election corruption comes to light.
With all the billions at stake, and with all these Bush people have to hide, what's a life here or there?
COMMENT #61 [Permalink]
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steve
said on 3/8/2005 @ 5:33 pm PT...
There is a Shannon Floyd at the Valdosta Technical
School. I googled her name, she is teaching Law
Enforcment.
COMMENT #62 [Permalink]
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MikeyCan
said on 3/8/2005 @ 5:42 pm PT...
Why would somebody start a suicide note with the time of day? ("8:10 am"). Really, a person in that mental state could care less what time it is.
I don't believe for one second that Raymond Lemme committed suicide. And neither do most of the people posting here.
If we are right, it is only a matter of time before the REST of the truth comes *FLOODING* out. But it won't happen on its own...
It's a shame that the big news organizations have turned into such gutless cowards and heartless politicos.
*Keep on digging, everyone!*
And Brad, kudos as always.
COMMENT #63 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/8/2005 @ 5:44 pm PT...
It is ok to be awake late and up early if you are severely depressed. The diagnostic manual accepts either excessive sleep or excessive sleeplessness. Loss of appetite or increase. Weight loss or increase. But certainly he'd have had feelings of hopelessness - not "hey in 2 weeks we'll have answers..."
Putting a time of 8:10 am on the note - is precise. Is that common? Cutting your wrists is...long, drawn out, time to change one's mind, imprecise.
Be careful for Shannon Floyd - she may need protection. If she followed orders without a peep she'd still be in. If she had reservations she'd be out. If she were in control, she'd be in. Etc.
What is the purpose of the tourniqet (sp)? Wouldn't he have had to do research on using that?
Geez, a million questions!!!! This is awful.
Brad, most heroic!
COMMENT #64 [Permalink]
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ewastud
said on 3/8/2005 @ 5:51 pm PT...
To comment #59:
Don't look to Mueller, for God's sake. He is probably one of the most corrupt members of the Bush administration and probably knows where many of the Bush crime family's bodies are buried, both literally and figuratively. Is it any coincidence that Mueller took office just days before 9/11? Mueller was head of the Justice Department's Criminal Division during the reign of Bush I when DOJ failed to investigate and prosecute the extremely corrupt and murderous folks at BCCI, and did everything to stonewall and derail the investigation of the bank by New York DA Robert Morganthau who went beyond his normal jurisdiction to try to bring the bad guys to justice. Read the excellent book by Beatty and Gwynne, The Outlaw Bank: BCCI, for details.
COMMENT #65 [Permalink]
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KenCalvino
said on 3/8/2005 @ 5:58 pm PT...
There was one major thing that really bothered me in seeing those photos. By appearances, this man was meticulate. He supposedly wrote the note - noting the time. The bathroom sink was all arranged neatly - everything was placed just so. And it indeed was a suicide and he planned on being in the tub, then why is there blood outside the tub near the toilet on that towel and the blood way up on the shower tub walls. It seems that if he was being that careful with everything else, that he would have also been just as careful with the final act. If everything was so planned, why would he be so sloppy in the actual act. It just doesn't make any sense.
COMMENT #66 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 3/8/2005 @ 6:03 pm PT...
Re #65. I agree completely, Ken. There's a lot here that just doesn't make any sense ... except if it wasn't a suicide.
COMMENT #67 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 3/8/2005 @ 6:06 pm PT...
re #53. That's a great link, Kes. Good comments there too. It's always a good sign when the trolls come out.
COMMENT #68 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/8/2005 @ 6:11 pm PT...
And what else was in the "day planner?"
COMMENT #69 [Permalink]
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KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/8/2005 @ 6:16 pm PT...
Okay, everybody, the story is out - the fire is spreading. We have to be patient. Things could happen very fast now, and I expect a WHOLE lot of misinformation - it's the S.O.P with this bunch.
It's great to have the new folks checking in and speaking out - our strength is in numbers. But, we really have to be careful not to fall into the "tin foil hat" category. Conjecture could do a lot of damage. And we have to do everything we can to avoid causing any more pain to the Lemme family - what they have been through already, we can only imagine.
Brad's done great. This will come out, there's no way it can be stopped now.
Everybody just hang on - it's liable to be a bumpy ride.
COMMENT #70 [Permalink]
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odds
said on 3/8/2005 @ 6:34 pm PT...
People who commit suicide don't normally leave a suicide note. That there is a suicide note is already a suspicious situation. Murderers are rarely aware of this and think it will "make it look like suicide", whereas the opposite is true --- the presence of a suicide note makes it look more like murder, not less.
COMMENT #71 [Permalink]
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Dazy
said on 3/8/2005 @ 6:46 pm PT...
I guess my question is moot and obvious? Is Lemme's work and files just vanished as well as this poor man's life? Is there no record of any of his work, anywhere??
Just asking, it's something i didn't read anywhere, or anyone else has asked..unless i missed it..
Man, brad, you've got me all tangled up in your blog, it's only my third time here in the past year of blogging for me..you got me!! Prayers and safety...
COMMENT #72 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/8/2005 @ 6:47 pm PT...
Teresa #54, Winter Patriot #58 -
It's unfortunate that prejudice and society's earnest attempts to overcome it sometimes create an even greater and more insidious bigotry: intolerance for any remark, whether innocently made or not, whether truthful or just speculative, that appears to be critical of the "protected" group - in this case Jews. Zionist Jews. P.C. bigotry leads to the wilful refusal to look at facts because facts might turn out not to be P.C. It also leads to logical fallacies and confused thinking. As when a hypothetical reporter speaking of a gang in L.A. as a "gang of black youth" is set upon for racial prejudice although, in fact, the gang in question IS comprised entirely of black youth.
I have no more racial or religious prejudice than a turnip. I converted to Judaism when engaged to a Jewish man. So when I say that Ariel Sharon is dangerous, I mean that he is dangerous, not that I don't like Jews.
Just a ramble - I'm tired and we have a major storm going on that keeps disconnecting me, so if my remarks appear disjointed, it's probably because they are.
COMMENT #73 [Permalink]
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Mary R.
said on 3/8/2005 @ 7:00 pm PT...
Brad, congratulations on a job well done. Would that the mainstream media pursue the truth with as much integrity as you have. Thank you for continuing your quest for the truth.
Mr. Lemme is another in a long line of questionable suicides and rigged airplane accidents. (Yes, Paul Wellstone was murdered.) God bless Mr. Lemme's family for being put through this hell by the powers that be. May the people who have committed this murder (and covered it up) receive payback tenfold.
COMMENT #74 [Permalink]
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cheryl
said on 3/8/2005 @ 7:28 pm PT...
Ilene #48 re: DJNelson #28,
I'm not at all sure that DJ is *one of our own.*
This is a very delicate subject and everyone is always very careful to avoid it because of fears of being accused of anti-Semitism. I am not anti-Semite. I have a whole bunch of Jewish friends. But I'm not at all sure about Zionist Jews. I'm not even comfortable typing that. I agree with Winter Patriot in that I'd like to see evidence on both sides. I have been carefully following events of the past few years and Zionist Jews keep popping up in the equation. I have been very careful to not jump to conclusions, mostly because of my sympathy towards Jewish people, but there appears to be more and more evidence that the Zionists seem to be involved in a lot of odd situations. Is it anti-Semitic (?) to question? I don't think so. Non-accountability based on race or religious belief is wrong. We should be able to discuss how we feel without being accused of being racist or *anti* anything.
COMMENT #75 [Permalink]
...
cannot find where brad was on abc news
said on 3/8/2005 @ 7:36 pm PT...
{this comment has been deleted for many reasons: it's way off topic, it duplicates a comment made on another thread, and it came from a poster using multiple names. If you want to read the deleted text, it's still available on the other thread, here}
COMMENT #76 [Permalink]
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cheryl
said on 3/8/2005 @ 7:37 pm PT...
Ken and WP #65 & 66,
I'm not at all sure that HST committed suicide either.
COMMENT #77 [Permalink]
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stretch
said on 3/8/2005 @ 7:39 pm PT...
Transparently obviously NOT likely a suicide. The body is conveniently found in Georgia, and on and on. Is there any vestige of a justice system left in Florida? That suicide password idea sounds pretty good to me, for anyone fighting for justice, for anyone making noise.
Thanks Brad for your tenacity and courage.
COMMENT #78 [Permalink]
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a whisky priest
said on 3/8/2005 @ 7:47 pm PT...
There's very little I would put past the criminals controlling the state of Florida and the United States of America these days.
Ultimately they're doing it all for Jesus, you see, so it's OK. Really.
Remember a fish rots from the head.
COMMENT #79 [Permalink]
...
Mary R.
said on 3/8/2005 @ 7:48 pm PT...
Is there any vestige of a justice system left in our entire country?
COMMENT #80 [Permalink]
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Peggy
said on 3/8/2005 @ 7:48 pm PT...
More questions. Even if autopsies are not automatically performed in Georgia, one still could have been requested and performed, in Georgie or Florida. Once Mrs. Lemme has had time to consider, wouldn't she want her husband's murdered caught and brought to justice?
I agree, that the "suicide note" indicates to me that Mr. Lemme was told to cooperate or that his "family" would be in jeopardy. Maybe Mrs. Lemme or daughter has actually been threatened, and that's why they are remaining silent.
Finally, there are many interesting questions raised above, including the "rasor" used, and Mr. Lemme's journal. That woman Shannon Floyd sounds like an incompetent so-and-so, and will only be interested in her reputation and covering her butt. I hope someone will go and ask her a lot of questions which she won't answer, even if it's just to annoy her. It's minor compared to her inability to properly report on the death of Mr. Lemme. She is supposed to be an advocate for victims - the last line of defense. She failed!
COMMENT #81 [Permalink]
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Peggy
said on 3/8/2005 @ 7:57 pm PT...
I guess it's too late to have Mr. Lemme's body exhumed and have a "professional" autopsy performed - or was his body cremated?
COMMENT #82 [Permalink]
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cj
said on 3/8/2005 @ 8:13 pm PT...
This is the makings of a great story. I want to just point out to those that are getting enraged over racial slurs and such that any discussion of that kind of foolishness wheather for or against, diminishes the story here. Lets keep focused on the situation at hand. Disrupters in threads will often attempt to derail the conversation. The best fix for off subject discussion is to ignore it. Hopefully what I'm writing here will be the last of it. This case is incredibly perplexing and I am curious how the MSM has ignored it. It has the makings of a great story. A great sad story about the death of a man and possibly about the death of democracy.
COMMENT #83 [Permalink]
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buttonhole
said on 3/8/2005 @ 8:16 pm PT...
whyever did the watch stop?
COMMENT #84 [Permalink]
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jjking
said on 3/8/2005 @ 8:23 pm PT...
There is another conflict with the dates and receipts. The credit card shows a 06:54 check out and the "suicide note has 8:10 am written on it.
COMMENT #85 [Permalink]
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Gretchen Ross
said on 3/8/2005 @ 8:26 pm PT...
Remember the woman who claimed Bush raped her? She committed suicide not too long ago as well. As did Hunter Thompson, days before he told a close friend he was going to be murdered.
This is a good story Brad, Ive been emailing it around. Hope it gets some attention. Though these things usually never see the light of day.
COMMENT #86 [Permalink]
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Robert
said on 3/8/2005 @ 8:36 pm PT...
I have the same question #71 had - what happened to the files, papers, etc. of Mr. Lemme?
Was he working alone or did someone help him? Perhaps that person, if there is one, has duplicate files. We definitely need someone with power(Senator , Congressman or otherwise) to push for a complete investigation. There has to be at least one honest government representative that has some guts! Anyone have any suggestions?
COMMENT #87 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 3/8/2005 @ 8:39 pm PT...
re #84. Right.
He checked in, then he left his home and started for work (in another state), then he checked out, then he snuck back in, wrote a suicide note, filled the bathtub, climbed in and committed suicide, and then he stopped his watch.
Or at least this is what we are supposed to believe.
I am entirely convinced that Paul Wellstone and his family were murdered. I've been doing some research on this very recently, and planning to write a piece on it for my blog. Unfortunately it isn't ready yet. But it sure does look like a premeditated murder to me. One with high-level connections, too.
But I am not at all sure what to make of the Hunter Thompson story. The Hollywood Liberal has been asking some interesting questions. His blog is here, and his HST article is about halfway down the page.
COMMENT #88 [Permalink]
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nunya
said on 3/8/2005 @ 8:49 pm PT...
Pail Rider
"I made the assumption because he was investigating a wild assed conspiracy about election fraud. Quite simular to the cries of "massive" numbers of voter intimidation in Florida that, somehow mysteriously DID NOT result in any court cases.....hmmmmm. Must've been because there wasn't any. Even the race baiting Jesse Jackson couldn't get any factual cases scraped up to form a civil suit."
You made the assumption because you are knee-jerk neo-con asshole, who has the attention span of a game of Tic Tac Toe. He wasn't investigating election fraud you fucking idiot. Maybe you should take week to read all about it as they say. Unless of course, the fact that these neocon morons you worship, like one of your favorite commandments prohibits, being in bed with Chinese communist spies is OK with you. That's not OK with me, and I think Fidel Castro is the coolest thing since sliced bread. He's got more cajones than all the pansy ass politicians in this entire country put together.
COMMENT #89 [Permalink]
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nunya
said on 3/8/2005 @ 9:00 pm PT...
"On July 1, 2003 --- just two weeks later --- Raymond Camillo Lemme was found dead in a bathtub, with his arm slashed twice with a razor blade near the left elbow in Room #132 of the Knights Inn motel in Valdosta, Georgia; a border-town some 80 miles from Tallahassee, Florida where Lemme lived and worked."
Ray Lemme, psychic investigator. So good he is investigating 2004 election fraud in 2003. No wonder we have an idiot in the White House. With idiots like pail rider riding around on his pail, and probably too poor and stupid to afford in door plumbing, he has to pee in it too. Man! You Bushie trolls are stupid.
COMMENT #90 [Permalink]
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horkus
said on 3/8/2005 @ 9:06 pm PT...
THE SUICIDE IS BULLSHIT. I don't usually get personal, but here goes. I've had two people near and dear to me in my life commit sucide. In both cases, no suicide notes. They both also felt trapped in a situation they felt they couldn't escape. People don't plan their suicides. It happens in a flurry of hopelessness. The suicide note should have been the first tip that this may have been murder. Suicide notes usually only happens in the movies. And they don't drive for miles to do it. Gives them time to think.
With a murder, there's always a motive. That's true in a suicide too. What specifically did Lemme feel depressed about? People leaving this world aren't concerned with how they'll be perceived. They just want to leave. Why is a guy leaving this world worried about spilling blood on the bathroom floor? Sure, whatever.
Keep digging, Brad. Your gut instincts are pointing you in the right direction.
COMMENT #91 [Permalink]
...
Charles
said on 3/8/2005 @ 9:12 pm PT...
You're asking where does it go from here? Its in our hands, the American public. It is our obligation to take this evidence, track down the investigators involved, get the family to speak and to present any and all information (including copies of information in this blog) to our house representatives and senators. Demand an answer, demand a special prosecutor and do it quickly. If someone traced it to the top, we can do the same.
We're not just conspiracy theorists, and we need to stop being dismissed as such. Align yourself with allies in government and get them working on this.
For now I think the most prudent thing would be to find out who in the FDOT was dealing with this. I doubt the hotel has security footage, but the family can subpoena to find out if there is any.
COMMENT #92 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/8/2005 @ 9:15 pm PT...
O.K. I'm going to jump in here and feed the troll - just for a lark. What possible connection could there have been between Lemme's despondent "suicide" in 2003 to a depression brought on by Bush's "victory" in November 2004? Huh? (Ref #21)
This prevailing right-wing brilliance is blinding.
COMMENT #93 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/8/2005 @ 9:20 pm PT...
COMMENT #94 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/8/2005 @ 9:31 pm PT...
I'm going to interject an OT here before crawling into bed and having a raging ice-storm lull me to sleep and sweet dreams.
The VR site is deader'n' a doornail. No postings. No comments. Hey! Free and fair elections are what we desperately desire and stand for. Grisly murders are all fine and dandy; but we need to pay attention to our mundane daily bread.
Patriots, arise!!
COMMENT #95 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 3/8/2005 @ 9:36 pm PT...
Thanks for that, Horkus. I'll get personal for a moment too.
A friend of our family committed suicide and he did leave a note. Not really a note, but a long anguished letter, pages and pages and pages, in which he tried very hard to explain why he felt driven to do it.
We're all different. There's no situation that would cause everybody to react the same way. The presence of a note does not eliminate the possibility that it was genuine suicide.
But there many other details that make me think it was a murder. The discrepancies between the physical evidence and the police report make me very suspicious.
And then there's a question of motive. Why would Ray Lemme want to die? Who else would want him dead?
COMMENT #96 [Permalink]
...
american woman
said on 3/8/2005 @ 9:37 pm PT...
Regarding the motel receipt dates, Brad reports that Childress said "We were told the management of the hotel made a mistake." I've read the entire police report. This is mentioned NO WHERE in the report. And "we were told", by who?
During Brad's second conversation with Childress, Childress says "the media has blown this out of proportion." Uh, Hello? WHAT media? This has gone virtually unmentioned by "the media".
Agree with Brad: WHO at the FDOT convinced them to re-close the case?
Finally, as Robert Lockwood Mills says in Comment #4, somebody has some explaining to do about the timeline. I'll lay it out in another post.
COMMENT #97 [Permalink]
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Robodamus
said on 3/8/2005 @ 9:44 pm PT...
SUICIDE NOTE GENUINE?
Bear in mind, a person can be FORCED to write something down. Like a suicide note. It might be his real handwriting, because he might have really been forced to write it.
The omission of his beloved daughter by name seems suspcious to me. Maybe it's something that his murderers didn't know about, and he intentionally left it out as a red flag. Hmm?
Think about what the crime scene would've looked like WITHOUT a suicide note. Murder, right? Right.
COMMENT #98 [Permalink]
...
horkus
said on 3/8/2005 @ 9:50 pm PT...
#95
Winter, thanks for the reply. But a note and pages of letters are two different things. I'm not saying that a person who commits suicide won't write a note, it's just unusual. It doesn't happen in most cases. This could be one be one of those extraordinary rare cases where a person commiting suicide wrote a note, but unliklely in my mind as it pertains to the case. Suicide is a truly selfish act. The ones commiting the act don't think about the people they'll hurt. That is often why you won't find a suicide note. That alone should have made Lemme's death suspect.
COMMENT #99 [Permalink]
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Potemkin
said on 3/8/2005 @ 9:58 pm PT...
Brad, I just read through all the posts and found my earlier post (#40) sounded quite different than I had intended.
When I wrote it, I was caught up in the imaginings of what Mr. Lemme's family must be feeling. On the one hand, it must be like reliving the nightmare, but on the other, they must want answers as well.
Anyway, I'd like to clarify my thoughts better. This is amazing work on your part. When I said it sounded like "tabloid journalism" or reads like "a B-grade movie", I meant the whole shebang: Mild mannered Clint Curtis caught in a world of international espionage, political powerplays and murder. I don't doubt any of this, it's just so very, very bizarre. I believe Clint's story. I think in all likelyhood Mr. Lemme was murdered. Particularly when one looks at the timeline of events. Peterpont in post #45 certainly makes some good observations as well.
Finally, I just want to say that I think you are doing a bang-up job. Please be careful. These are dangerous people you are probably upsetting.That's all.
COMMENT #100 [Permalink]
...
Southern Bell
said on 3/8/2005 @ 10:14 pm PT...
The only way that the US citizens are going to deal with any of this ...... is take up arms against the current administration, and find a way to get the armed forces to stand down while this is going on. If this doe'nt happen, I'm afraid that it will be a fate of comple'
Bush/Chenney and the boys will win.... (Not sure what they will win, but they will IMO)
COMMENT #101 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 3/8/2005 @ 10:15 pm PT...
in comment #98, Horkus wrote:
"thanks for the reply".
Not at all. Same to you.
"But a note and pages of letters are two different things."
Absolutely true.
Another friend-of-a-friend committed suicide without even leaving a body. All kinds of people do all kinds of things.
But in this case ... I would have a lot easier time believing that Ray Lemme's death was a suicide if his note had said anything about why he was "depressed" or why he was "in pain". Or if his wife had confirmed that he was "depressed" or "in pain". As I recall, she said he was "under stress". That's a lot different.
It also would have looked more genuine if he had mentioned his daughter by name. Or if he didn't write the time of day at the top of it. Or if his check-out receipt didn't indicate that he had already left the motel.
So ... to cut to the chase: I agree with you that this 'suicide note' looks suspicious. But I don't buy into any blanket generalizations. Sometimes the ones committing the act think very much about the people they will hurt. Everybody's different.
But the note is only part of the puzzle. And I think we agree that this looks like a murder. It also seems like the police were looking to cover it up. No photos? Photos! No evidence of foul play? Big bruises! No blood on the towel? Lots of red drops on the towel! And so on. Not stonewalling? But not answering any questions either! My oh my!
One more thing, Horkus. Condolences.
COMMENT #102 [Permalink]
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horkus
said on 3/8/2005 @ 10:30 pm PT...
#101 Winter
Very well. Your entitled to you opinions. I won't harp on the note thing. It's too much to go into. But a reminder. Every generalization has it's exception to the rule, there are no blanket statements that I've made. As in the Jon Benet Ramsey case. You don't usually find a body and a ransom note in the same place. But as I've said, there are exceptions to the rule.
Didn't understand your response, but peace anyways.
COMMENT #103 [Permalink]
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american woman
said on 3/8/2005 @ 10:36 pm PT...
Timeline that needs to be explained:
Sun 06/29/03
========
18:44 Reservation receipt for motel room generated.
Mon 06/30/03
========
05:15 Lemme leaves for work.
06:15 Lemme makes call from pay phone at Hwy 19 and Interstate 10..
06:54 Motel credit card receipt with Lemme's signature.
18:45 Lemme checked into hotel.
Tue 07/01/03
========
08:10 Time on suicide note.
11:00 Time Lemme was supposed to check out.
13:06 Lemme found dead.
Lemme could not have signed reciept at 6:54 am on 6/30/03. Why? We know that at 6:15 am he made a phone call from Hwy 19 and Interstate 10. According to Mapquest, this is aprox 1 hour and 15 minutes away from the Motel.
Investigators need to absolutely nail down those receipt dates. If they are correct, something is fishy.
COMMENT #104 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 3/8/2005 @ 10:45 pm PT...
conspiracy theorists ,whats "past tense" for that ?
One other thing about the "suicided note" is the underlining of first, the word "family" and then at end the double underlining, of "I love you" .This seems odd to me.Also in another crime scene picture (http://www.insider-magazine.com/unrestricted_warfare.htm) which show the diary in which the "suicided note" was written ,(you must assume these picture were taken before the crime scene was corrupted by the investigators and coroners staff etc.) I notice that the pen used to write the "suicided note" is placed in a position that normally only a left-handed person would do (I’m left-handed) .Not a smoking gun but interesting just the same , try it ,write a note and put the pen down ……..well ?
COMMENT #105 [Permalink]
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laura
said on 3/8/2005 @ 11:03 pm PT...
It always comes down to who gains from this suicide scenario. Keep up the good work Brad! You and Clint are in my prayers.Watch your backs. I love this site I have learned so much from the stories as well as the comments. Great bunch of patriots!
COMMENT #106 [Permalink]
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Wooly Bully
said on 3/8/2005 @ 11:08 pm PT...
#71 Absolutley!
Where are his files on the case??? Did he not back anything up in a computer???
And what else WAS in the day planner???
Is there ANYTHING in it in the future that would state an important meeting or an exciting event he was looking forward to???
Something???
God Bless, I'm praying for the family right after this
COMMENT #107 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 3/8/2005 @ 11:11 pm PT...
re #103: American Woman: If you have this right, then my comments in #87 are wildly wrong. That could be the case. I've been wrong before. I think I need to look at all this again. Sigh.
COMMENT #108 [Permalink]
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Torqued
said on 3/8/2005 @ 11:12 pm PT...
#100--
Please reconsider... violence should never be a justifiable option. Never.
COMMENT #109 [Permalink]
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Brad
said on 3/8/2005 @ 11:29 pm PT...
I don't have my notes in front of me right now, but American Woman is almost exactly right. Including the distances she mentions from when Lemme called his supervisor at 6:15am to say he'd be late.
Those were details I didn't report in the story today, so it's clear she's working from some of the same police info that I was.
I have a question about only one line in timeline, this one from 06/30/03:
"18:45 Lemme checked into hotel."
Where do you get that one from? Either I missed it, or I'm too tired to remember. Both could very well be true.
Beyond that, you guys have been asking some great questions! Some of which I can answer, and some of which I can't.
I will try to do so in a follow-up post tomorrow.
Thanks all for many very kind words!
COMMENT #110 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/8/2005 @ 11:32 pm PT...
Brad,
There are some facts about this case I am unclear about, besides, "When EXACTLY was the time of death established to be?"...
1) Did his wife ever get the cell phone bill showing what phone numbers he had calls with that day, June 30? Surely the Police asked for that!? Would his wife be kind enough to provide that for "background"?
2) In the photo at the hotel, the bed looks made, untouched. So he couldn't have slept there that night, checked out, and then returned to a cleaned room. Or was it a two bed room?
3) Did he sneak back into the room after checking out? How could he have, THE LOCK ON THE DOOR is a card reader. Did he request 2 key cards? Or did he check-in again? If so, where is the second check-in slip. Surely the police have that?
4) His shirt is hanging in the closet. All his accesories, including his tie, are neatly set on the counter top. Everything is in it's right place, exept for his shoes. Why wouldn't he put them near the closet? Seems an odd place for someone who is being so ritualistic.
5) The red "to go" coffee cup is next to the TV. Which means he set it down before laying on the bed or sitting at the desk. If he was done with the cup why didn't he throw it away?
5) The bottled water is also next to the TV. The bottle seems to be half full. He brings 2 beverages into a hotel room and leaves them there? Why? Was he double fisting? Did he bring the drinks into the room at two separte times? If he was done with it, again, wouldn't he have thrown it away, afterall, he seems to be a very neat person?
6) Doesn't the fact that he was investigating a major scandal naturally turn the case into a murder investigation? What are the standard protocols?
7) Surely the investigators asked to see the video surveillance tapes of his check in, and check out, and copy them? That would help establish his times/dates of entry/departure, since there was such an obviously flawed date on the receipts?
8) So in June 30 (Monday), 2003, the price of a room for one occupant of Raymond Lemme go for $49.00/night. Why are the prices now $33.00/night in 2005? Am I missing something there?
COMMENT #111 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 3/8/2005 @ 11:33 pm PT...
Thanks to you, too, Brad. Best wishes as always.
COMMENT #112 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/8/2005 @ 11:40 pm PT...
American Woman,
I believe (assume) that the "reservation receipt" date came from the same computer date as did the bankcard check out receipt.
The Police theory goes that BOTH the June 29 date and June 30 date SHOULD REALLY READ June 30 and July 1.
But unless the Police confirm that, officially, WITH EVIDENCE, then they are dismissing a MAJOR piece of evidence on those receipts.
What we need are 2 timelines. One which is backed up by EVIDENCE (which you showed), and one that is the POLICE theory.
Too tired to do that now...
COMMENT #113 [Permalink]
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gwbmalecheerleader
said on 3/9/2005 @ 1:08 am PT...
Quickly for 108: Thomas Jefferson left written disagreement with you. It's called a Constitutional Right, and it wasn't fer huntin' varmints. At least, not 4 legged ones. And as a Liberal that loves his Constitutional Rights, I'll always remind you of that fact.
Now, Brad,
let's play connect the dots:
This was a whistle-blower investigation? I am correct?
Who benefits from Mr. Lemme's death ( I am not convinced he was murdered, or committed suicide at this early stage)?
Now, who recently made the news ( the last two days recent enough news cycle?) by arousing concerns using a Presidential Secrecy Power to CANCEL WHISTLE-BLOWER'S Cases?
Who benefits?
First visit. Great site.
Wish folks would just ignore the trolls from the "Right", speaking to them just encourages the cretans.
COMMENT #114 [Permalink]
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Bando Bling
said on 3/9/2005 @ 1:09 am PT...
Who did Mr. Lemme call Hwy 9 & Interstate 10? That might provide a lead.
American woman is right, time was too short. Plus it is rush hours. Possible and highly probable that the people who were behind this *suicide* made a calculation error on the "time factor". Not uncommon in 'mob hit'.
What would be interesting to observe is how the police dept. is persuing these clues. Have they ignored these details? Are the detectives afraid that this may lead to ............... I guess these are missing pieces of the puzzle we must track closely.
COMMENT #115 [Permalink]
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gwbmalecheerleader
said on 3/9/2005 @ 1:17 am PT...
Wait!!
Isn't this a case for that female writer, that has that Forensic Coroner, as her heroine, man, it escapes me, send this to her to investigate. I do believe I read she actually funded a Forensic lab for the city of Richmond, and she thinks she solved the Jack the Ripper case!! Appeal to her ego. (100 to 1 she's a repub)
Frame it as a case where an experienced woman dectective is being blamed by "leftist bloggers" as suspiciously inept......
Man, I am devious.
Feels good.
Watch out, kkkkarl, we're after you, and if we get just a tiny fingerhold, well, if you think your boyfriend jefjim is a "bulldog" wait until we chew you up and spit your bones out.
Wanted war?
With the legions of morons on YOUR side, and the facade of msm falling, and losing your propagana efficy...
You're in deep dodo, doughboy.
COMMENT #116 [Permalink]
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gwbmalecheerleader
said on 3/9/2005 @ 1:20 am PT...
Bando, WHY did the watch stop in a suicide?
Earlier poster caught that, I thought Hecule Poirot had shown up.
VERY odd, that.
COMMENT #117 [Permalink]
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gwbmalecheerleader
said on 3/9/2005 @ 1:24 am PT...
And WHO let the "flashcards" out?
Perhaps they deserve an apple?
COMMENT #118 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/9/2005 @ 1:24 am PT...
Maybe I'm missing something. But what difference does it make whether the motel's machine was a day behind or not?
The fact is, the last entry for Raymond Lemme at the motel is for his CHECKING OUT. If he had committed suicide in that motel room, regardless of the date or time, the last entry would have been for his CHECKING IN.
Unless my facts are wrong, for Lemme to have committed suicide there it means that he snuck back into a motel he had already checked out of for the purpose of killing himself. To believe that one must be a real conspiracy theorist.
COMMENT #119 [Permalink]
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american woman
said on 3/9/2005 @ 1:33 am PT...
Bando asked: "Who did Mr. Lemme call Hwy 9 & Interstate 10? That might provide a lead. "
His boss, to tell him he'd be in late (per sworn affidavit of boss, Robert Clift).
COMMENT #120 [Permalink]
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Disgusted
said on 3/9/2005 @ 3:52 am PT...
OMG! this is so gross and evil..and it leads straight back to the neo-con death cult Bushs (like most political corruption does these days!)
What the hell are we going to do to save our country from these horrific people? Even the Clintons :O are falling under their spell more every day! Golf with both Bushs? Excuse me while I barf. :angry:
COMMENT #121 [Permalink]
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Teresa
said on 3/9/2005 @ 4:04 am PT...
The note seems ridiculous to me. It doesn't sound depressed. And the handwriting doesn't look right. It looks more like a thank you note. Or "I've run out to get some milk... be right back."
COMMENT #122 [Permalink]
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Teresa
said on 3/9/2005 @ 4:20 am PT...
And solving crimes or being part of a huge breaking story is exciting, adrenalin producing, and addictive. One waits in great anticipation to see what will happen next. Not at all the prelude to suicide.
COMMENT #123 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/9/2005 @ 5:05 am PT...
Has any evidence surfaced to indicate a reason for Ray Lemme to have gone to Valdosta on his own?
If I were investigating the case, that would be my starting point.
Lemme was working on a matter involving the Florida Department of Transportation, and people in the state government in Tallahassee. According to Clint Curtis' affidavit, he told Curtis he was close to breaking the case open. He told his wife he was working on a big case, which confirms the affidavit.
So why go to Valdosta? If there was someone there who could have helped him, that would be a reason. But who? Nobody has come forward, and surely someone who sincerely wanted to help Lemme would have done so by now, recognizing that the "suicide" was a fraud.
The greater likelihood is 1) Somebody lured him to Valdosta with a promise to help with key information, then murdered him and set it up to look like a suicide, or 2) He was murdered in Florida and his body taken to Valdosta to escape the autopsy requirement.
But #2 could be ruled out if it could be established that it was Ray Lemme who checked in at the motel and signed the credit card slip. That's why testimony from the check-in clerk is needed. Lemme's family says the handwriting is his, and it does match the "suicide note." So #1 looks like the most logical guess.
In any event, the physical evidence seems to rule out a suicide.
COMMENT #124 [Permalink]
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KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/9/2005 @ 5:55 am PT...
One thing - although it seems odd that someone would write a time on a suicide note, that detail may or may not be significant. Anyone who has ever worked government contracts knows you bill for time spent on a contract up to the 1/10th of an hour, and after a few years it becomes habit to time and date-stamp everything for your records - even personal notes. It took years for me to get out of the habit of grabbing a pen and paper to take notes whenever the phone rang.
Although it seems odd in context, as someone else pointed out, he seems to have been a man who paid meticulous attention to detail.
With that in mind..
Was he in the habit of time-stamping his personal notes? Could it have been a way of flagging attention in hopes of investigation?
Or could it have been an intentionally misleading piece of evidence put there by someone who was already practiced at immitating his handwriting?
***
Also, as far as checking out of the hotel...when I travel with someone, it's not uncommon for one of us to go check out and grab some coffee while the other finishes packing - that way there is someone in the room to open the door even though the keys have been returned, and we're still gone before checkout time.
It's possible the person he was supposed to meet was already in the room that morning, and gave him instructions to go check out and then come back to the room. That would also explain the presence of two beverages.
All I'm saying is that there are scenarios where he may indeed have checked out and then returned to the room, in which case the reciepts won't be that helpful.
COMMENT #125 [Permalink]
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big dan
said on 3/9/2005 @ 6:12 am PT...
Lemme must've had hardcopy evidence of his case. Someone must find this. The fact that his portfolio of evidence is gone, means he didn't commit suicide. If his evidence portfolio was there in the room, I would definitely believe it was suicide. Where is it? And I'm sure Lemme shared some, if not all, of his investigation with someone else...I have a feeling someone's going to come forward sooner or later who spoke with Lemme about his investigation. We must find his notes from his investigation, and anyone who spoke with him at all about the investigation.
COMMENT #126 [Permalink]
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KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/9/2005 @ 6:22 am PT...
Um..I don't mean to sound paranoid, BUT...
We should assume that whatever we type is also being read by people who may be deeply involved in this, and with this many people asking these kinds of questions, they're probably not nearly as confident as they were before about getting away with it.
Just a reminder, for what it's worth.
Brad, Winter Patriot, etc - Is anybody saving hard copies of these posts to hand over to any investigators who might take on the case, in case this site just "goes away" one day?
COMMENT #127 [Permalink]
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Pale Rider
said on 3/9/2005 @ 6:23 am PT...
#100 - Aren't you Democrats the ones that are always telling us that guns are bad and trying to ban them? Geeez, do you even know which end of the weapon the bullet comes out of?
COMMENT #128 [Permalink]
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Potemkin
said on 3/9/2005 @ 6:25 am PT...
I'm just curious, did Mr. Lemme always begin writing in his notebook with the time? He was an investigator, so I would think he would always mark the time in his notes.
Fred, (#110, question The room rates in Valdosta may very well be seasonal. The quotes you are getting right now may not be the same as they are in the summer (June 30). I know Georgia pretty well, born and bred there. South Georgia is a pretty quiet place. Travellers on their way to Florida for summer vacation pass right through Valdosta. Room rates would certainly go up in the summer. That could be the explanation.
COMMENT #129 [Permalink]
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blue
said on 3/9/2005 @ 6:27 am PT...
Some thoughts on the note. The suicide note was photographed "skewed" to resemble the downward slant that a deeply depressed and suicidal persons writing exhibits. When the note is rotated in photoshop to adjust the lined paper to its proper position the writing does not indicate depression.
COMMENT #130 [Permalink]
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Pale Rider
said on 3/9/2005 @ 6:29 am PT...
#89 - "Ray Lemme, psychic investigator." Ha, ha, ha, ha,.....oh, my sides are hurting...ha, ha, ha, ha. You lunatics are placing your faith in a "psychic investigator"? Oh my, I haven't laughed this hard in quite a while.
COMMENT #131 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/9/2005 @ 6:37 am PT...
You might be right about the checkout process, Kestrel. Under your scenario, does the following
become the only logical sequence of events?
1) Lemme spends the night at the motel with a guy who promises to help him on the case in the morning (of July 1). Or possibly he meets the guy for breakfast, and the guy follows him back to the motel to continue the conversation. This could have been somebody from the Florida D.O.T. (or hired by them) who tells Lemme on the phone, "It's too dangerous to talk about this in Tallahassee." So Lemme goes to Valdosta, where it's "safer" to talk.
2) After he checks out and returns to the room, his "friend" (and maybe others) double-cross him and force him to sign the suicide note under threat of killing his wife and daughter. They strangle him (discoloration of neck) and slash his wrists with his own razor blade (wearing gloves, of course, so only his own prints are found on the blade). They then leave the motel quietly and disappear.
All we need now is Lt. Columbo. I can imagine him speaking to Feeney about the case outside the Capitol, being satisfied that Feeney is telling the truth, then stopping on the Capitol steps, going back up and saying, "Uh, Congressman...there's just one more thing that bothers me here."
COMMENT #132 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/9/2005 @ 6:50 am PT...
I could see where Lemme's omission of mention of his daughter might have been a way of protecting her.
The very first thing I noticed (but ignored) when looking at the scene was that while everything was sooo neat and tidy, the shirt was not. If he was obsessively neat and tidy he would have buttoned the shirt at the collar when he hung it up. (I had a boyfriend like that once.)
What kind of watch is it, how old, waterproof, damaged in any way? The watch stopping is so cliche.
I defintely need autopsy notes. Toxicology, water in lungs, coffee in stomach, etc. I'm guessing that since metabolism stops, these artifacts would still be present.
Re #117, we need Kay Scarpetta
COMMENT #133 [Permalink]
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cheryl
said on 3/9/2005 @ 7:01 am PT...
Teresa #124,
And would you call your boss to say you were going to be in late if you were planning to kill yourself?
COMMENT #134 [Permalink]
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cheryl
said on 3/9/2005 @ 7:04 am PT...
Oops sorry. My bad. Obviously I'm not a crime sleuth.
COMMENT #135 [Permalink]
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Kryten42
said on 3/9/2005 @ 7:04 am PT...
COMMENT #132 [link]
...Pale Rider said on 3/9/2005 @ 6:29am PT...
#89 - "Ray Lemme, psychic investigator." Ha, ha, ha, ha,.....oh, my sides are hurting...ha, ha, ha, ha. You lunatics are placing your faith in a "psychic investigator"? Oh my, I haven't laughed this hard in quite a while.
Ahhh... But that is not nearly as hysterical as you following an illegally elected President that has a criminal conviction, is a coward and went AWOL, and whose daughters all have criminal convictions also! A man who claimes he "talks to god"! How psychic do you want to get? LMAO My question is... does God answer him back, or does his own voice simply echo in his empty head?
A president that is bankrupting the nation. Do you even have a clue what is happening right under your nose? America will be in recession within a year. Japan is already talking to China about selling it's share of the US debt, if that happens, then China will own a big chunk of the USA! All is has to do then is threaten to sell a tiny part of it in Euros, and it will then cost you $10 to buy an apple!
I truly hope you *are* having a good laugh, because it will end soon. But you will have the memory... enjoy!
Just to stay on topic now, after my previous post, I rechecked the info I have on Floyed. She appears far too experienced and too well trained to have made mistakes. So, either she didn't do her job on purpose, or she did do her job, and it's being kept secret.
COMMENT #136 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/9/2005 @ 7:20 am PT...
Regarding Ms. Floyd: I would suggest that moving from the Valdosta P.D. to a college professorship is a career upgrade in her eyes. She's undoubtedly smart, but scared at this point, and I wouldn't blame her.
When the Valdosta P.D. reopened the case in December, then quickly closed it again (after talking to "someone" at the Florida D.O.T.!), that was a clue that something is rotten in Denmark, folks. Suddenly the chief doesn't want to talk any more, and the former investigator-turned-professor doesn't want to talk, and why won't those liberals in the blue states let this go away?
I e-mailed Bill Keller at the New York Times a thumbnail summary of the known facts to date and asked him to assign an investigative reporter to the case. Anybody want to set the odds against the chance of a positive reply?
COMMENT #137 [Permalink]
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Infernal Optimist
said on 3/9/2005 @ 7:24 am PT...
#15:
I totally agree. The underlined "family" jumped off the page at me. Could this be his way of signaling that his actions were under duress - emphasize family, yet not mention his beloved only daughter at all?
Also I agree that this final note has a very unnatural detached sound to it and is incredibly brief as if it were a race against time.
The double-spaced lines also seem odd, but, who knows, that may have been his style of writing.
COMMENT #138 [Permalink]
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big dan
said on 3/9/2005 @ 7:29 am PT...
...some other thoughts...
On the receipt, the "y" in Raymond has a huge loop in it; all the "y"'s in the suicide note are different, with small loops.
Where do you get one of those old fashioned razors from? I couldn't get one, if you offered me money. If he was alone, he would've placed the blade he cut himself with, in that place in the picture. With all that blood caused by the razor cut, probably all over his hands, why is there no blood pools or drips around where the razor lies?
Someone who just "cracked open a big case" wouldn't commit suicide. It doesn't make sense!
Obviously, the huge bruise on the side of his neck is not typical of a suicide. And, the belt & towel appear to be placed there later, because the towel has not absorbed the blood dripping down the side of the tub! Maybe, the bruises on his neck are from an assailant choking him with the belt. Then the assailant placed down the towel and put the belt on top of it, afterwards. Was the belt checked for fingerprints? Were there footprints under the towel? Was the room checked for bloody footprints?
I'm not an expert, but these are things I would've checked or noticed in seconds...
COMMENT #139 [Permalink]
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Nunya
said on 3/9/2005 @ 7:37 am PT...
"#89 - "Ray Lemme, psychic investigator." Ha, ha, ha, ha,.....oh, my sides are hurting...ha, ha, ha, ha. You lunatics are placing your faith in a "psychic investigator"? Oh my, I haven't laughed this hard in quite a while."
Bucket Rider, you are laughing at your own stupidity. I was being facetious. Big word, look it up. Has nothing to do with the face eating aliens who anally probed you last night. Your original post:
":rolleyes:Just another pathetic liberal who couldn't deal with the fact that President Bush won the election fair and square."
Is very funny considering Lemme's death occurred over a year before the election. So if he killed himself for that reason, he had to be a psychic. You moron, go play with a loaded gun and point it at your head and put yourself out of your misery. Lot's of liberals can shoot a helluvalot better than you can read or think.
Yes, Jefferson and many others have made remarks about the duty of every citizen to take up arms against tyrants, and they were referring to any tyrants, even ones produced by their own governments. Jefferson said that the tree of liberty should be watered in blood every 20 years. Something to that effect. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.
COMMENT #140 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/9/2005 @ 7:38 am PT...
Lemme was probably drowned in the water in the bath tub. They held him under until he suffocated, sucked water to his lungs, and died.
He was very dead but still very warm when the murders then immediately cut his arm so the blood would drain into the water.
This makes it look like lotsa blood drained.
If the Valdosta Police had not been incompetent or corrupt they would have seen the need for an autopsy to show the real cause of death.
COMMENT #141 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/9/2005 @ 7:43 am PT...
I think he was strangled, but I doubt it was with that belt. Why would a murderer leave the murder weapon around, when he could have folded it into his pocket?
I'm no forensic pathologist, but I suspect if the belt had been the murder weapon, from the murderer's perspective it could have been compared to the marks on Lemme's neck in such a way as to establish the fact. Maybe not, but why would a hired murderer take such a risk?
COMMENT #142 [Permalink]
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Nunya
said on 3/9/2005 @ 7:53 am PT...
Just a point regarding Floyd. College professorship is gilding the lily a bit. Valdosta Tech? It's a technical college. I bet she doesn't even have more than an AA degree herself, if even that. Administration of Justice is what it used to be called here in CA. If they are calling it Criminal Justice now, which wouldn't surprise me, they are again gilding the lily. When I majored in CJ awhile ago (it's only been specific discipline since the 1970s) it was part of the behaviorial and social sciences dept. and only taught at 4 year universities. But things have changed for the worse on most campuses. Football and business. Waste of time and money. Having said that, and without looking into it too much, you do learn the job by doing it, however, Valdosta, GA is probably not the kind of place you would get OTJ like LA, NY, or Chicago. In other words, calling her a detective may be gilding the lily a bit too.
COMMENT #143 [Permalink]
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Bejammin075
said on 3/9/2005 @ 7:56 am PT...
Great work Brad.
My thoughts:
If the Georgia police closed the investigation and believe it was suicide, then there's nothing to hide, and no reason for them not to tell you who it was in FDOT that helped them decide to close the investigation.
The more I think about this, the more I believe finding out who that person was at FDOT is very very VERY key to this investigation.
There's 2 possibilities: either Lemme committed suicide, or he didn't.
Questions I'd ask the FDOT person:
When and how did you find out the investigation was reopened?
Why are you so concerned about the investigation of Lemme's death?
If you believe Lemme committed suicide, and Lemme was your friend, or at least not your enemy, and it's POSSIBLE that he was murdered, why would you want the investigation closed? If Lemme POSSIBLY was murdered, wouldn't you want Lemme's family to get justice? Wouldn't you want Lemme's family to get closure?
Why do you, as an employee of Florida, have any jurisdiction/authority/power to close an investigation in GEORGIA? Why did the Georgia police listen to you?
Lets see here: Lemme might have been murdered for something that he discovered at FDOT and elsewhere that went "all the way to the top". If Lemme was murdered, there are 2 kinds of people at FDOT: innocent people and corrupt people. The person at FDOT who called the Georgia police is one of those 2 kinds of people - innocent or corrupt. Which kind of person would be most likely - the most motivated - to try to close the suicide/murder investigation? Innocent or corrupt? I think an innocent person at FDOT would be very unlikely to intervene in the murder case of Mr. Lemme. This FDOT person OBVIOUSELY has something to hide or cover up.
COMMENT #144 [Permalink]
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nunya
said on 3/9/2005 @ 8:02 am PT...
I didn't see water in the bathtub, which is usually why you choose to do it that way, warm water makes it easier, more comfortable. Surely you all remember Frankie Five Angels and Tom H (Robert Duvall) Don Vito's consigliere and their discussion before Frankie's testimony, which he never showed up for. The Godfather? See that again. So just for speculation's sake. he could have committed suicide, like Frank Pentangeles, because he was convinced it was in his best interests. One poster on the original post said the motel was a flop house near strip joints. Why did he stay in such a cheesey motel? Near strip clubs? I think it's highly suspicious. But keep an open mind and don't give the locals down there more credit than they deserve.
COMMENT #145 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/9/2005 @ 8:10 am PT...
I agree it's vital to know who at the Florida D.O.T. killed the reopened investigation, because there is no benign explanation for his having done so (such as protecting national security). There must be a way to compel the Chief of Police in Valdosta to reveal who it was, and why he took orders from somebody in Florida. Freedom of Information Act? Class-action suit? Congressional hearing?
Since this involves the possibility that a dead body was carried across state lines, it should mean Congress can involve itself. Are you there, John Conyers? Anybody from the Georgia delegation?
COMMENT #146 [Permalink]
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Bejammin075
said on 3/9/2005 @ 8:10 am PT...
Fucking rediculous!
Georgia police say the equivalent of:
"We re-opened the suicide/murder investigation because people brought to our attention many unanswered questions, new information, many suspicious things, and showed us many mistakes in the original investigation. If Mr. Lemme was murdered, it had something to do with people FDOT. However, the MURDER SUSPECTS at FDOT assured us that THERE'S NOTHING TO SEE HERE, so we promptly closed the investigation.
COMMENT #147 [Permalink]
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lewis
said on 3/9/2005 @ 8:12 am PT...
comment 133:
Yes, we do need Lt. Columbo. I have been thinking that all along. How we he investigate this case? Obviously, he would follow Feeney around for weeks under the guise of "just trying to tie up some loose ends."
I do remember one thing Columbo said in an episode, I believe it was the one that starred John Casavetes. He said, "It's just me. I don't know, I guess I've been doing this for too long." (or something to that effect). "But whenever I hear about a suicide, I think murder."
It is probably true that a good number of "suicides" are actually murders. We know police generally don't have the training to properly investigate these cases.
But what else would Columbo be doing on this case right now? Certainly, he'd want to see all the receipts. So he'd hang out at the motel a bit, examine the machines and how they worked. Then he'd probably take a drive to the place where Lemme made a phone call from. He'd time the placing of the call and the drive to the motel, and compare it to the check-in time on the receipt. He would certainly look at the photos and condition of the body. He'd talk to the family and co-workers. Ask to see his work files. But what would be the final, most important piece of evidence? Hmmm... If we figure that out, maybe we can crack this case...
COMMENT #148 [Permalink]
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Nunya
said on 3/9/2005 @ 8:14 am PT...
Maybe I'm mistaken, but that's his grey slacks. No water in that tub. Very odd. Not everyone is aware of the old Roman practice of getting in a warm bath and bleeding out. And men usually choose a gun or hanging. Women are more likely to slash their wrists or take pills. And if you know enough to bleed out in a warm bath, you usually know enough to slit lines longitudinally, up and down the armin the direction of the veins, not across them. No autopsy, no tox screen? This was bungled from the get go. Maybe because of the motel, a hooker flop, if that's true. These fools just decided what it was before they looked. Now it's CYA time.
COMMENT #149 [Permalink]
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nunya
said on 3/9/2005 @ 8:21 am PT...
Dredd, 142, no water
Robert, 143, taking the murder weapon would kind of rule out suicide. What would need to be done is to exhume the body and perform an autopsy and that is possible only with a court order and the permission of next of kin, and an autopsy should have been done in this case.
COMMENT #150 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 3/9/2005 @ 8:25 am PT...
OT alert!
Yesterday, during a heated and OT discussion, I challenged somebody who had made an anti-semitic remark, and I also challenged somebody else who had called it anti-semitic. In doing so, I unwittingly offended people. Brad has explained to me [privately] the error I made there; I had not fully understood one of the posts to which I was responding.
Now, sadder but wiser, I must go OT again. To Ilene and to Adam and to Brad and anyone else who was offended by my previous post, I apologize; please understand that my comment was written in ignorance and not in malice. I never wish to offend anyone, and certainly not my friends and fellow-posters here.
I didn't want to go OT again in this excellent thread, but now that I understand what I have done wrong, I cannot simply leave it that way.
We now return to your regularly scheduled thread.
COMMENT #151 [Permalink]
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nunya
said on 3/9/2005 @ 8:30 am PT...
And strangling would be quite apparent to even a rookie. If you are dead and someone cuts you open a trained investigator should be able to spot that. No heartbeat, no blood being pumped, you don't bleed out that quick and at a certain point gravity takes over, unless the cuts are on the lowest part of the body, blood will just sit there in the body. This was one of those cases that got written up as what it looked like so they could all go out and have a beer. Exhumation and Autopsy may provide answers.
COMMENT #152 [Permalink]
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nunya
said on 3/9/2005 @ 8:34 am PT...
Yes, we had the Protocols of Elders of Zion here yesterday. Not you WP. A totally debunked piece of propaganda but great reading if you are convinced that the UN will occupy this country and enforce a new world order with black helicopters. Shit! I wish they would!
COMMENT #153 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/9/2005 @ 8:36 am PT...
There is an interesting discussion of suicide methods and what to look for when investigating them (link here).
Notice how the slashing method is mentioned way down and is a rare method. It also mentions hesitation marks most often observed in slashing suicide, which were not found in this case.
Also it mentions how difficult it is to do it that way. In another place it mentions how some subconscious movements take place and the body can move a long way ... even after death.
Nunya #151 You mean there was no water in the bath tub ... it was half full of blood?
COMMENT #154 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/9/2005 @ 8:53 am PT...
Another interesting discussion of suicide indicates that "you should treat all apparent suicides as homicides at first" (italics in original) (link here).
What is interesting about this link is that it is part of an educational process at a university.
It would seem that the police officer (Ms. Floyd) who did the initial investigation would have known of these investigative norms, and probably teaches these norms at her new job.
Why was the Lemme crime scene not treated like a murder investigation first as is normal?
Furthermore, the article goes on to say about suicide notes:
"With suicides, you may or may not find a note left behind for loved ones, but if you do, you should treat it as a questioned document" (bold and italics added).
The document was assumed to be unquestionably factual in the Lemme case! Bad technique.
Doesn't the fact that non-normal techniques were used in the Lemme case support our suspicion?
COMMENT #155 [Permalink]
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cheryl
said on 3/9/2005 @ 9:04 am PT...
With all the interest in this story and the many new posters I see here it seems like a good time to remind everyone that it costs money to keep Brad going in his awesome work. Please donate (a little or a lot) today.
COMMENT #156 [Permalink]
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casolaro
said on 3/9/2005 @ 9:07 am PT...
Casolaro shared information with many reporters around the world and interviewed numerous CIA/DIA/DEA/NSA operatives in his quest for the truth. He called me one evening and sounded very excited. He said that he was going to meet a source at the Sheraton Inn in Martinsburg, West Virginia. He claimed that the source was very close to Senator Byrd, the patron of the CIA. He announced that this source was going to "give me [the solution to] the Inslaw case on a silver platter".
Two days later I received a call from a mutual friend who was crying. She told me she had just talked with the owners of the Inslaw Corporation, Bill and Nancy Hamilton. They were in shock and told her that Danny Casolaro had been found dead in his room at the Sheraton Inn. His naked body was found in a bathtub filled with bloody water. Both wrists had been slashed to the bone numerous times, drugs were found in his body, a 'suicide' note allegedly written in his own handwriting was found nearby. His clothes were found neatly folded on the bed. All of his countless files and reporter's notes were missing. No files or paperwork was found in his car. His body was embalmed before his family was notified as though someone was in a hurry to cover up a murder eventually labeled a suicide.
COMMENT #157 [Permalink]
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Nunya
said on 3/9/2005 @ 9:20 am PT...
No water at all. What looks like water to you are his grey slacks. Look closely. Also notice how the blood streaks down. No water washing it around. Sit in a bathtub and see how much the water will move with your slightest movement. He did not run himself a bath and slash open his veins. There was no water in that tub that I can see. Amd those are the worst damn crime scene photos I have ever seen. That camera is for auto accidents, not forensic work. Total hacks.
COMMENT #158 [Permalink]
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casolaro
said on 3/9/2005 @ 9:21 am PT...
You know, it's the MO that really strikes me here. The call about meeting the source at a motel. The neatly folded clothes. The suicide note left nearby (wanna bet this was at the motel room's desk, just like Lemme's?). The water in the tub, the method itself --- although apparently Casolaro had some hesitation marks, unlike Lemme.
They seem to have refined their technique a bit --- my guess would be they compress the carotid (your neck bruise) and render the victim unconscious, then do the arm slash themselves so as to not make a mess of it. That would explain why the belt is on the floor beyond the left arm, when it would have had to be taken off after the slash by the victim's right hand --- awkward to do when you are bleeding to death, and the belt would get wet even if the victim did toss it past the left arm and out onto the bath mat. Far likelier the belt would stay in the tub... who's gonna need it after this is over?
About the note(s) - specifically the underlining. All they had to tell the vic is that it would be quick and relatively painless, like getting really sleepy and not waking up, and that if he doesn't write the note his whole family will be killed. Two things jump out here - lack of personal details in the note, and lack of any detail in the "reason given." Most non-terminally-ill suicides explain more. Anybody ever see a copy of the Casolaro note to compare the elements of the "legend?"
COMMENT #159 [Permalink]
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casolaro
said on 3/9/2005 @ 9:25 am PT...
You're right, no water. Good call. It still reeks.
COMMENT #160 [Permalink]
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Nunya
said on 3/9/2005 @ 9:26 am PT...
That's not blood, Dredd. There isn't that much blood in the human body. It's his grey slacks. Like I said, those photos are crap. That was a camera that you would use to document auto accidents. Low budget police force. Crime scene photos require a bit more expertise and equipment. Digital cameras are getiing better all the time but in 2003 they were just barely breaking into the 5 megapixel range. Should have been still film and video documentation.
COMMENT #161 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/9/2005 @ 9:27 am PT...
Well, Casolaro, if the C.I.A. is involved with this one (sure sounds like the same M.O.), that would explain why the Valdosta Police Chief would have shut down the second investigation (the one he began in December). Somebody shows up at the station, flashes C.I.A. credentials, and says, "Don't go any further with the Lemme thing. We mean business here." That lends the case a patina of
"national security."
What's really strange about the police chief's actions is that he claimed he cut the reinvestigation off after speaking to someone at the Florida D.O.T. That's weird, because he's basically throwing the blame on the primary suspects! If somebody at the D.O.T. had talked him off the case, presumably that person have said, "Now don't tell anyone we talked. Find another excuse for cutting off the investigation."
The C.I.A. angle makes more sense, really, because there's no reason for a police chief in Georgia to feel obligated to an out-of-state agency. It's harder to say no to a C.I.A. operative.
Whatever the truth is, for a second investigation of a suspicious death to be abruptly terminated without sufficient reason is not acceptable in a free society. Congress has to take over here, and they won't do anything unless we force them to, out of "courtesy" to a fellow member.
COMMENT #162 [Permalink]
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nunya
said on 3/9/2005 @ 9:29 am PT...
OT but not really. Try googling Steve Kangas.
COMMENT #163 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 3/9/2005 @ 9:44 am PT...
in comment #163, Robert Lockwood Mills wrote:
Whatever the truth is, for a second investigation of a suspicious death to be abruptly terminated without sufficient reason is not acceptable in a free society.
So... in what kind of a society is it acceptable? And what does that tell us?
COMMENT #164 [Permalink]
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Pale Rider
said on 3/9/2005 @ 9:47 am PT...
COMMENT #137 [link]
...Kryten42 said on 3/9/2005 @ 7:04am PT...
Kryten Assinine Statement: "Ahhh... But that is not nearly as hysterical as you following an illegally elected President..."
The Truth: President Bush was elected by the American public in 2000 because we were tired of being led by a president that was an embarrassment to the nation. He was reelected because the people were tired of the same old lies and class warfare tactics being spun by the Democrats. Clintoon didn't even respond to the terrorist attacks at the WTC, the embassy in Africa, and the U.S.S. Cole. Thanks to Clintoon, the Chinese have more modern nuclear payloads for their ICBMs and his foreign policies with regards to North Korea have resulted in the problems that we're having today.
Kryten Assinine Statement: "[President Bush] is a coward and went AWOL..."
The Truth: Oh please! Try to catch up on your reading and quit relying upon old, disproved propaganda. Oh, and where was your precious little warrior, Clinton, during the Vietnam conflict? His cowardly ass was over in England, protesting against his own country. I'll bet you're one of the dumbshits that still believe the bullshit documents that were supposed to have been printed back in the 70s and were actually done on a computer using MS Word. Come on, you can admit it... : )
Oh, and while were on the subject of military service...how come Kerry won't release all of his military records. How come he won't sign a DD Form 180? Bush has. How does Kerry get discharged from the military service in 1972-3 and his publicly posted DD Form 214 shows a discharge date of 1978? A inquiring military veteran with twenty years of service to this great nation wants to know. : )
Kryten Assinine Statement: "A president that is bankrupting the nation."
The Truth: Protecting the country from terrorists is expensive. We didn't start it but we'll damn sure end it. By the way, have ya noticed the beginnings of a movement towards democracy in a lot of the other middle eastern countries over there? Gee, kind of a good thing, right? I mean, geeeez, who could be against people (Arab women) being able to vote for the first time in their lives.
Kryten Assinine Statement: "Do you even have a clue what is happening right under your nose? America will be in recession within a year..."
The Truth: Aw, come on! Geeezus! You guys were crying about a coming recession during the first term. No matter how many times you repeat a lie, Herr Goebbels, it ain't gonna come true and only sheeple, like you, will believe them anyways.
Kryten Assinine Statement: Japan is already talking to China about selling it's share of the US debt, if that happens, then China will own a big chunk of the USA! All is has to do then is threaten to sell a tiny part of it in Euros, and it will then cost you $10 to buy an apple!"
The Truth: Wow! Where do you get this crap?
COMMENT #165 [Permalink]
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nunya
said on 3/9/2005 @ 9:55 am PT...
I missed this post. So she did get some actual degrees. But what do they say, "Those who can't, teach?"
"http://www.valdostatech.edu/news/index.asp
"Shannon Floyd New Law Instructor
Shannon Floyd joins the faculty of Valdosta Technical College as the Law Enforcement Instructor. She will teach in the new Criminal Justice program that began January 6, 2005.
She holds a Master of Public Administration degree and a Bachelor of Arts in Criminal Justice degree, both from Valdosta State University. Floyd taught as an adjunct professor in Criminal Justice for Valdosta State from 2003-2004. While at the university as a student, she worked for the VSU Department of Public Safety.
Her professional experience includes work with the City of Valdosta Police Department as a forensic specialist, firearm examiner, detective and crime scene technician as well as patrolman. She has also worked as a private investigator and held an internship with the Georgia Bureau of Investigation.
Floyd holds certifications as an Identification Technician, the Basic Peace Officer Certification, Identification of Marijuana by Microscope Certification and a Smith & Wesson Armorers Certification. She is the Membership Committee Chair for the South Georgia Chapter of the Police Benevolent Association of Georgia, Inc. and a member of the Peace Officers Association of Georgia. She published an article, “Why Education is Important” in the Georgia Troopers’ News Journal in the Spring/Summer 1995 edition."
There's a picture of her on this page as well."
COMMENT #166 [Permalink]
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Snoopy
said on 3/9/2005 @ 10:12 am PT...
Hello everyone, this is my first post here.
Just throwing in my two-cents' worth of speculation about a couple of the Lemme crime scene observations...
Regarding Mr. Lemme's watch, I am presuming the timepiece is analog and battery powered. If the watch was not damaged (it looks intact to me) or battery didn't "die" coincidentally, a probable way the displayed time would have frozen was that the stem was pulled out (as one does when they intend to set the time).
Knowing his demise was imminent, perhaps Mr. Lemme intentionally stopped the watch in order to provide another "timestamp" (as on the supposed suicide note) clue. Pulling the stem would only take a moment and could easily go unnoticed by others in the hotel room. Being that Mr. Lemme was an investigator, it seems he had an appreciation of the importance (and a habit) of documenting time.
Near the sink I saw a round, seven-day medicine/vitamin pill holder. Did investigators determine the holder's contents? Why would a suicidal person even care about taking vitamins or medicine on a trip if they were about to end their own life? Looking on the flip-side of the coin, if Mr. Lemme consumed certain drugs (prescription or otherwise), they could have contributed to suicidal urges. Thus, the original conclusions could have been reinforced. It seems to me that the fact he had this pill holder should have thrown up a red flag that would prompt an autopsy. An autopsy was a vital step that could have determined if Mr. Lemme ingested any vitamins or medicine around the time of his death.
There are just so many little things about this case that don't fit together. The crime scene just looks too orderly and arranged. Why would a suicidal person go to the extent of neatly placing their personal items near the the sink? Rather, it appears to me that Mr. Lemme had his belongings situated as he prepared for work.
Did anyone ask Mr. Lemme's wife if he usually shaved with a double-edge razor? I didn't see a razor in the crime scene photos, just the one blade. Are there any records that he may have purchased the double-edge blades? Where is the rest of the blades? They aren't sold one at a time! This evidence could reinforce the assertion that he had the intention of killing himself.
Hope my ramblings make a valid point or two...
Brad, great job! Keep up the good work! Please don't let this story fade away.
COMMENT #167 [Permalink]
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KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/9/2005 @ 10:12 am PT...
When you check in, hotels typically ask to see the card that has the number and name that were given when the reservation was made.
Supposedly Lemme made a call from a payphone an hour and 15 minutes away from the hotel, yet he signed a receipt 40 minutes later AT the hotel on the same date. That means either the signature is fake and the person had his credit card... the witness who saw him at the payphone was mistaken and he actually called from somewhere else...or somebody at the hotel has been fooling around with the date/time stamp.
Mrs. Lemme would have the credit card bill that has the time and date for when the card was actually charged for the room. The bank company would have those records too.
Has anyone tried the route and actually clocked how long it would take at that time of morning to get from the payphone to the hotel? Phone records made to his company on that day should be able to pinpoint exact time and number from which the call was made to his boss.
Has anyone checked to see who owns that particular hotel in Valdosta? I'd run a background check on the managers AND owners, check for connections.
COMMENT #168 [Permalink]
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bizkit
said on 3/9/2005 @ 10:58 am PT...
Is there any valid reason for him to be in Georgia - besides the fact that an alleged suicide would not undergo a mandatory autopsy? I know!! The "bruise" was actually a hickey, an autopsy would have shown sexual activity with another woman (or man?). He drove to GA and killed himself knowing their antiquidated CSI would protect his sexual deviations!!.... hey, makes as much sense as the official story.
COMMENT #169 [Permalink]
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KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/9/2005 @ 11:00 am PT...
Snoopy #168, and everybody else - Good questions and good points y'all. This isn't going to go away, we won't let it.
It's nice to have so many fresh and highly functional brains to pick on such important topics.
Brad - Any really serious interest yet from anyone in msm? Does it look like anyone might actually run with this story and stay on it until it's over?
Are you and Clint Curtis doin alright?
This has got to be wearing y'all out.
COMMENT #170 [Permalink]
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Bejammin075
said on 3/9/2005 @ 11:01 am PT...
KestrelBrighteyes, post 169,
Where did you get your specific info on the time and distance that Mr. Lemme was from the hotel when the call was placed for a reservation?
COMMENT #171 [Permalink]
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Peggy
said on 3/9/2005 @ 11:14 am PT...
If Lemme had traced "it" all the way to the "top" - then the "top" may be the top of the FDOT. Why does the FDOT have the authority to shut down the investigation of the death of Mr. Lemme? Why did Mr. Henry Yee get off so easily? Maybe far more fraud has taken place at the FDOT than what has been found to date. The FDOT needs a light shining in every corner of its operations - particularly pertaining to the activities of the fraud already discovered, potential UNDISCOVERED fraud, and the FDOT's involvement in the investigation of Mr. Lemme's death. It should not be within FDOT's jurisdiction to shut down a murder investigation, whether of one of their employees, or not.
COMMENT #172 [Permalink]
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czaragorn
said on 3/9/2005 @ 11:18 am PT...
Good old Lt. Columbo would look for the person who had the motive, opportunity, and means to stage this "suicide." Considering the case he was working on, his "all the way to the top" comment, and the interstate complications, the "extreme prejudice" execution has to have come from the very top of the US government. Now then, let's see... Sorry, I simply can't buy that this was just a "third-rate suicide."
COMMENT #173 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/9/2005 @ 11:24 am PT...
Somebody has got to put the Valdosta Police Chief on the spot. I leave it to the Constitutional lawyers to decide whose responsibility it is.
This man has now initiated his third investigation of a suspicious death. The first ended in a finding of suicide, which didn't conform to the evidence or the apparent state of mind of the decedent. The second investigation, which should have redeemed the first, ended because somebody in an out-of-state transportation agency said, "Please end it," or words to that effect.
That agency just happens to have been the focus of an investigation the decedent had said was about to result in a major political scandal.
Question...How will the third investigation conclude? Without a boost from higher up, I suspect in the same trash can the White House investigation of the Valerie Plame leak fell into.
COMMENT #174 [Permalink]
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Tad Shelby
said on 3/9/2005 @ 11:41 am PT...
Could the missing detective now be at Valdosta Technical College? "New Law Instructor Shannon Floyd joins the faculty of Valdosta Technical College as the Law Enforcement Instructor" - sfloyd@valdostatech.edu
Thanks for the great reporting. I'm not going to be able to sleep for a while, but thanks.
T
COMMENT #175 [Permalink]
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Peggy
said on 3/9/2005 @ 11:46 am PT...
Benjaminno #145 - Sorry, I posted before reading all the posts. Won't do so again.
COMMENT #176 [Permalink]
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KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/9/2005 @ 11:51 am PT...
Benjamin075 #172 -
It's my understanding that the phone call from the payphone at highway 19 and Interstate 10 was made, according to witnesses, to Lemme's boss, to say he would be late to work that day. Lemme's wife also stated in her affidavit what time Lemme's boss said he called in - it was mentioned in the message on her answering machine.
That reminds me - does anyone know if the payphone witness was mentioned in the original police report? I don't remember where that came from.
The reservation for the hotel room was made the day before, on the 29th, supposedly by Lemme - no idea from where the call for that was made.
I got my information both from American Woman's post #103, and from Brad's original lead-off article in this thread.
My reason for questioning the actual travel time vs the time given by mapquest is that mapquest uses estimates that I've found are not always accurate (that, or I drive a lot faster than whomever comes up with those travel times)
COMMENT #177 [Permalink]
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Kryten42
said on 3/9/2005 @ 12:05 pm PT...
First, Great work Brad and all who support him!
This is my first post here, but I have emailed Brad some info previously. I decided to do some checking into Detective Shannon Floyd. It does seem to me that she is the same Floyed who is now teaching at Valdosta Technical College (in Georgia). from her bio there:
Floyd taught as an adjunct professor in Criminal Justice for Valdosta State from 2003-2004. While at the university as a student, she worked for the VSU Department of Public Safety."
Her professional experience includes work with the City of Valdosta Police Department as a forensic specialist, firearm examiner, detective and crime scene technician as well as patrolman.
It appears she was still a Detective until at least December 2004, and was hired to teach the program around that time.
VALDOSTA - Eight local law enforcement officials met at Valdosta Technical College recently to discuss the beginning of a new program.
The college's new Law Enforcement Program kicks off in January. Class graduates will provide a qualified pool of potential employees for the agencies.
Joseph Dukes of the Lowndes County Sheriff's Office; Deputy Warden Ted Philbin and Warden Donald Barrow, both of the Valdosta State Prison; Major Audie Rowe, assistant chief of the Adel Police Department; Bruce Powers, director of security at South Georgia Medical Center; Lt. Terry Arnold, Investigator and Capt. Colin Millison, chief deputy, both of the Cook County Sheriff’s Office; and Chief Frank Simons of the Valdosta Police Department attended the lunch meeting, along with several Valdosta Tech administrators.
Law Enforcement Program Coordinator Shannon Floyd was recently hired to teach the program. She brings a wealth of experience in law enforcement from her jobs with the Valdosta Police Department.
Over the past nine years, she has served in several positions including patrol officer, detective, crime scene technician, firearm examiner and forensic specialist.
Floyd has also taught criminal justice at Valdosta State University.
Valdosta Daily Times: "Law Enforcement officials gather at Valdosta Tech"
She also received a Marriage proposal at about the same time (busy girl!)
Valdosta Daily Times: "Detective pops the question"
In any case, someone with her experience (9 years) and qualifications (some difficult to obtain) does *NOT* do such a sloppy job as was apparently done in the Lemme investigation. It is obvious from the photographs and information provided, that at the very least, she should have asked MANY more questions! The question is of course, why didn't she do her job properly? Alternatively, If she did do her job properly, who is covering up the investigation. and why?
It is obvious from this news report that she is quite capable as an investigator:
Valdosta Daily Times: "Man convicted in drive by shootings"
Also, I came across this whilst searching for info on her. I cannot say if it is the same woman, but the photo's have some similarities. The difference is that this Shannon Floyd appears to live in Portland, Oregon. If it is her, I don't know what to make of it. If you feel this is a red herring, please disregard it. It's just that I found the similarities in the two pictures striking (even though they appear to be completely different women judging by their activities).
http://www.alternativesm...gazine.com/24/floyd.html
Thanks again Brad and all! Please keep up the good work, and PLEASE stay safe! This is *NOT* a game to some people.
COMMENT #178 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/9/2005 @ 12:06 pm PT...
Lemme was probably right handed if he cut the left elbow. Was he? The pen on the desk looks oddly placed for a righty.
Blood is soaked *up* the shirt from the elbow. Could the shirt could have been wet?
I can (unfortunately) say that when you are choked by someones hands, bruise marks in the form of fingers are very clear. Whatever pressure was used on the neck would show I think.
What's with the wash cloth?
COMMENT #179 [Permalink]
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Peggy
said on 3/9/2005 @ 12:08 pm PT...
Perhaps some CIA people who resigned or were forced out because they wouldn't go along with the corrupt Bush Administration could be approached to investigate this. Even they would have to be careful about whom they trust - more than half the Democratic Party is involved with, and as corrupt as, the Repubs. in power. Nothing is as it appears to be. If anyone asks to meet you in the middle of nowhere, or even the downtown Hilton - REFUSE. Keep everything out in the open, in public, in the light.
COMMENT #180 [Permalink]
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Steve
said on 3/9/2005 @ 12:08 pm PT...
Wow! More excellent work by Brad and a great thread generated by it. Lots of new commentors. How many hits did you get on this one Brad? Hopefully, a few donations for your efforts (my second to Cheryl in #157).
A few comments:
--The troll on this thread has to be the lamest yet to pass through this blog. As Nunya points out in #141, this troll doesn't even pick up on the fact that "psychic investigator" was used as a satirical/mocking term to point out his (her, its?) own earlier ignorance about what Lemme's investigation was all about. Please, do us a favor and don't waste anymore of our (or your) time on this blog.
--To Miss Persistent reg. #134- maybe I'm misunderstanding you in your reference to "autopsy notes". Of course you know that there was no autopsy.
--To Robert Lockwood Mills reg. #133- It doesn't make sense that Lemme would have voluntarily spent the night at this motel on the night of 6/30 without notifying his wife and supervisor on 6/30. Both had already reported him missing by this time. I seems reasonable that the dates/times on the receipts may have been correct and that Lemme was already dead by the time he was reported missing. It's certainly possible that , if check-out did occur in the AM of 6/30 and the room was then cleaned, Lemme could have been smuggled into the room (dead or alive), "suicided" and then not discovered until 7/1. I would presume that if no one else officially checked into the room on 6/30, there would have been no reason for cleaning personnel or others to enter it until the events of 7/1. Also, could Lemme have somehow managed to stop his watch at "12:34 on June 30th" as a signal of the approximate time he was suicided? Of course, all of this leaves unexplained why anyone planning to suicide him would have had him apparently checked into a motel on the night of 6/29-6/30 when his wife could state that he was home that night and said goodbye to her in person on the morning of 6/30. So many inconsistencies it leaves your head spinning, yet, this was treated as a cut and dried (no pun intended) suicide by the Valdosta Police!!???
--To Nunya reg. #150- Don't you think this goes way beyond CYA by the Valdosta police?
Finally, since the American MSM, political system and law enforcement agencies (at least nationally and, in many places, locally) seem so compromised (corrupted?), perhaps the BBC or Canadian press might be looked to to run with this story. Just a thought.
COMMENT #181 [Permalink]
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american woman
said on 3/9/2005 @ 12:10 pm PT...
Fred, you're right. We do need both timelines. But what we really need is other evidence that the receipt dates are incorrect.
Brad, I got the 18:45 checkin time from Leon County narrative. Officer reports telecon with Valdosta investigator, Craig Spencer. "Investigator Spencer stated that Mr. Lemme checked into a local hotel .... at 1845 hours on 30 June 03."
Could be that Spencer was just going from the dated 06/29 receipt? Hard to say.
COMMENT #182 [Permalink]
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tx60lady
said on 3/9/2005 @ 12:22 pm PT...
What a great group of posters ! Articulate and intelligent. I have read everything, good and bad on Bush history having lived under his "regime" in Texas.
I have to ask, "how much is enough?" Power, money, control. Where does it stop?
We all have to live in this world, what are we leaving for those we love? Bleeding liberal? Maybe. But surely Republicans have children who need clean air, protected, clean food.
I know good people who question the path this administration is leading. But many are concerned when the media, the banks, the Stock Market are all controlled by the same few. How do those who question be allowed to question?
Since when is questioning, thinking and compromise not allowed?
How many must die before the courageous stand up and say ENOUGH ?
COMMENT #183 [Permalink]
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Jeff
said on 3/9/2005 @ 12:40 pm PT...
Where's the blood? If he slit his wrists, there should be a lot more blood. If his wrists were slit after his heart stopped beating, there would be about as much as is shown in those pics.
COMMENT #184 [Permalink]
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everett
said on 3/9/2005 @ 12:47 pm PT...
You need to contact a professional graphoanalyst. As an amateur, and very rusty, I can still tell you that note wasn’t written by a depressed person. The writing was upbeat and positive. Note the consistent forward slant; the up-turn of the t-crosses; the consistent upbeat of each word and sentence. Someone needs to look very closely at each letter with some prior examples of his writing. It would be very easy to give an overall look of the same writing, as there is nothing peculiar about his (or this example), but there are always little “ticks” that would prove if this was his with a much closer examination by a professional.
Also, how does he usually sign off to his wife and family? That would not be absent in such a note. If written by someone else, they were being careful not to expose that lack of knowledge.
Also, where was that blade in relationship to his body? was it really by his elbow? Those stains don’t look consistent with something that has been used for cutting. Why does it lie so cleanly on the tub side with no other stains around it? Wouldn’t his hand be bloody and left smears with the blade? Are there photo’s of his hands to confirm this?
Try it with some fresh meat. There would be a swiping stain. That blade looks like it might have been wiped and blood blotted on it … what do you think? What is that black thing covering his lap? And what is that white clothe, or what, Below that? That’s an old style razorblade … all his stuff laid out so neatly on the counter … where’s his razor? Did he use that type of razor?
That neck bruise is consistant with someone who'd been in a choke lock ... subdued?
The more I look at those pix’s, the more questions come up …. It’s strange how many people who’ve gotten under the CIA’s rug have ended up lately, so …. Depressed??
Ev
COMMENT #185 [Permalink]
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Steve
said on 3/9/2005 @ 12:52 pm PT...
To Bejammin075 (#172) and KBE (#178)-
The original article in Insider-Magazine by John Caylor (linked by Brad in this story) has the "Leon County Sheriff's Office- Supplemental/Continuation" statement which includes, under "Additional Information", the following: "Mr. Clift learned the call that Mr. Lemme made came from 997-3845. Deputy Wilson determined the number was made from a pay phone at 'Pay Fast Track' at Highway 19 and Interstate 10, in Jefferson County." There was no eyewitness to the phone call. Hope that clears up that confusion.
COMMENT #186 [Permalink]
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COLLEEN
said on 3/9/2005 @ 1:02 pm PT...
WHY IS THE RAZOR BLADE NOT SURROUNDED WITH BLOODY FINGERPRINTS? I HOPE YOUR BLOG WILL GET JUSTICE FOR THE LEMME FAMILY.
COMMENT #187 [Permalink]
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Everett
said on 3/9/2005 @ 1:02 pm PT...
did anyone check the dates and times with the CC Co's timestamps? There's the proof. The receipt no. needs to be checked with the before and after receipts ... are they also misdated? Why would the hotel people lie? What, and who are they covering? Did they really say this was in errror? That needs to be confirmed.
COMMENT #188 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/9/2005 @ 1:16 pm PT...
Maybe a psychiatrist or other expert on the usual behavior of depressed people could weigh in here.
A man with an apparent happy marriage, looking forward to his daughter's wedding, on the verge of a major breakthrough in his career as an investigative reporter, and one who cares enough about his job to call his boss from a highway pay phone to say he'll be late, suddenly goes off and kills himself? How many suicides fit that profile?
The police chief isn't talking. The detective has changed jobs and isn't talking. Meanwhile a second investigation, initiated because the first had been inadequate, was aborted after a conversation with a (presumably) disinterested third party from out of state. Have such circumstances ever existed previously, anywhere?
COMMENT #189 [Permalink]
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KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/9/2005 @ 1:27 pm PT...
Steve #187 - Thanks for clearing that up, for some reason I thought there was a witness..so much information to absorb here.
For anyone else who missed the link (as I did) it's here:
Insider magazine - Unrestricted Warfare
There is a LOT of information, especially down towards the bottom after the hotel receipts.
Wow..there's even more to this than I realized. The FDOT is definitely in this soooo deep.
COMMENT #190 [Permalink]
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KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/9/2005 @ 1:33 pm PT...
Ray Lemme was scheduled to meet with someone from the FDOT General Counsel's office at 1:30 on the day he went missing. Has anyone contacted that attorney to find out what the meeting was about, and if it was related?
COMMENT #191 [Permalink]
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Kathleen
said on 3/9/2005 @ 1:49 pm PT...
It's my understanding that the Democrats control the Georgia's Legislature. Can't you contact some friendlies in Atlanta to push this story?
Also is Mrs. Lemme herself pushing this investigation at the highest level she can? I wouldn't blame her for being frightened, however.
Also, to your knowledge is the FBI still investigating Curtis's allegations?
COMMENT #192 [Permalink]
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Too odd1234
said on 3/9/2005 @ 2:07 pm PT...
Great Sherlock job!
His watch being stopped at 12:34 is way too odd of to write off as merely an accident of nature.
There would be two chances out of 1760 of this combination of four digits happening by accident. A clock would stop on this time with about 0.1% chance.
Other than that particular time, perhaps other number strings like 11:11 or 3:21 might stand out, but these wouldn't have the same degree of thought provoking, "Gee, that's really odd...12:34. Imagine that..."
Interpreting this as meant to signal this was a set up seems like a reasonable hunch worth following.
I sure hope the police stay on this one until they turn up the killer(s).
COMMENT #193 [Permalink]
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Teresa
said on 3/9/2005 @ 2:17 pm PT...
The most important thing, is to prove the motive.
This does seem to be a Pandora's Box, and is probably connected to a huge web that would bring the crime family down. They murder these people all the time, but this one seems to especially hold a key.
And the whole operation seems sloppy. As if it is tempting fate. If anyone is really attemting to crack this case, we certainly aren't going to know who.
COMMENT #194 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/9/2005 @ 3:08 pm PT...
My goodness but everyone is sooo good. So many excellent points!!! I'm flying through this stuff and apologize in advance if I'm being stupid...but...
Steve #181: We would love to see the autopsy report...and we know there isn't one. I would hope they could exhume and reinvestigate.
Often the ME (or if a coroner it could just be an elected official) will visit the crime scene as well. He/she makes the determination and would *have* signed the certificate. Get a hold of the ME/C file.
I'm curious about the family. If suicide, no life insurance?
Still more funny about the pictures. If you look at the picture showing the sink objects at a distance, the objects look like they are place differently than in the close up. Especially the comb. Could be my eyes. Did the police tamper?
Also, the towel looking like it was placed there (as in prior to a shower) has not soaked up any of the blood that is at the base of the tub.
Snoopy #168, what might be the message Lemme was trying to leave by writing the note at 8.10 and stopping the watch at 12:34
Everett #184, right - the fingerprints had to be wiped off the blade - using the cloth?
Could the hotel have drawn up the paper work in advance? Could a phone call have been placed by someone else to the hotel to ask them to draw up the paperwork?
I think it is higher than FDOT. And when Lemme says Curtis would be "satisfied" - would that indicate satisfied about Feeney, YEI, FDOT? More?
Onward!
COMMENT #195 [Permalink]
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Bejammin075
said on 3/9/2005 @ 3:18 pm PT...
Teresa # 193:
Motive: Money. Perhaps Feeney, YEI, and folks at FDOT are funnelling millions of dollars out of various contracts. They already found hundreds of thousands of dollars in "questionable" transactions. I doubt that $$ was ALL of the stolen money.
Sloppy operation? No one has been charged with murder, and I haven't heard of any specific suspects. If it was murder, the murderer is currently getting away with it.
COMMENT #196 [Permalink]
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Teresa
said on 3/9/2005 @ 3:38 pm PT...
Bejammino #195
The murderer is 'currently' getting away with it. But the sloppiness is in the execution of the crime. If we pajama wearing sleuths can collect so much evidence, the what about the pros?
The MO so blatantly doesn't fit Lemme, a meticulous detail oriented professional.
I guess no one really cares as the lockdown on justice seems so complete.
Or maybe all crimes leave behind a thousand clues.
COMMENT #197 [Permalink]
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Teresa
said on 3/9/2005 @ 4:03 pm PT...
And another thing... the first thing that crossed my mind when I looked at the "suicide note" was that a woman wrote it.
COMMENT #198 [Permalink]
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Snoopy
said on 3/9/2005 @ 4:16 pm PT...
After doing further research on Mr. Lemme's death today, I discovered the answers to some of the questions being asked. For every question answered, it seems like new ones arise.
First, about the pill holder on the sink of the Knight's Inn hotel room. Based on Mrs. Lemme's sworn testimony, Mr. Lemme had a cardiac condition and took several medications. Thus, he needed to take his prescriptions often in order to LIVE. Why would a suicidal person take a 7-day supply of heart medication on a one-way trip when it is alleged he intended to take his own life? As with most of the cover-story, this just doesn't make sense.
Regarding the motive of Mr. Lemme's murder, it's pretty obvious when you take Chinese espionage and cover-ups by American politicians into account. This is all about people we entrust selling us out and American technology being transferred to China. My OPINION is that the Chinese carried out the hit and that high-ranking American politicians made their subordinates turn a blind eye to the whole matter. Until now, the investigation into Mr. Lemme's murder has been kept under a local jurisdiction intentionally. I'm not an attorney, but this seems like an interstate case that should be handled by the FBI. There would be a much better chance of solving the case, unless Bush or Feeney intervene there too.
Litigation and fines against YEI are ongoing. Testimony by two whistleblowers initiated the investigations were crucial to uncovering the truth. The more time passes, the more we see their testimony is accurate. Mr. Lemme got involved because the Florida DOT assigned him to check into the overbilling accusations. His job cost him his life.
The sad truth is that the FDOT overbilling was just one facet of the criminal activity that these thugs perpetrated. If you ever lose sight of what this is all about, just re-read the top of this page. You can also refer to another excellent resource: Insider Magazine has official documents regarding the YEI/Feeney fiasco at this link
http://www.insider-magaz...unrestricted_warfare.htm
When you hear names like Bush and Feeney mentioned frequently in this matter, its not hard to understand what Mr. Lemme meant when he said this matter goes "all the way to the top". We must press to have the truth about Mr. Lemme's death told. He deserves that much and more. The traitors and spies who are undermining our way of life must be exposed and punished.
COMMENT #199 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/9/2005 @ 4:16 pm PT...
The more I think about it the more I know that is the Lowndes County Coroner needs to lose his job.
It is the full responsibility of the ME/C to investigate any death that occurs in remarkable situations (e.g., outside the home, no one around, in the street, etc.), and it is his or her sole responsibility to make the final determination as to cause of death (manner of death) and report *any* contributing factors or even just coincident factors.
The ME/C will also have a case file (however flimsy) that needs to be obtained. It's his/her ass right here right now.
Phone: (229) 242-3385.
COMMENT #200 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/9/2005 @ 4:46 pm PT...
Snoopy, if he didn't want his wife to be suspicious he would have taken the whole pill holder. I wonder how full it was? (Mind you I haven't read everything yet.)
I agree about the Chinese possibly giving the orders, it passed (right through) my mind earlier. YEI is the benefactor of the overbilling, how might they have benefited from the espionage? And, how can Feeney make money through YEI or was it all in exchange for the vote rigging prototype?
COMMENT #201 [Permalink]
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MikeyCan
said on 3/9/2005 @ 4:47 pm PT...
If we are right, and Ray Lemme didn't kill himself, the perpetrators are likely reading this blog and shaking in their boots.
If there was foul play, there must be *SO* many people that have some insider knowledge of what has gone on: management at FDOT, perhaps some YEI management (who secured questionable, big fat contracts from FDOT), and others...
It may take some time, but in this type of case, with various people involved, invariably *one* of them confesses what she/he knows. Let's hope that is sooner rather than later.
-----
Additionally, either the police on the case were either so entirely inept in crime-scene reporting as to be half-blind, or (scary, but less likely) they are involved in covering up the facts.
If they are only guilty of being inept, the public attention that has been given to this case would NORMALLY be a huge embarassment to a police force, and MUST precipipate a full and immediate public admission of their mistakes, apology to the Lemme family, and full disclosure of *EVERYTHING* else they have on this case.
But so far, the police are still keeping their lips shut??? What is up with that???
COMMENT #202 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/9/2005 @ 4:54 pm PT...
Lemme's boss, Robert Clift, signed an affidavit to the effect that Lemme called and said he'd be in late. This was on 6/30/03, in the early morning.
Supposedly Lemme had an appointment that afternoon at 1:30, which Clift knew about.
Suddenly Lemme detours to Valdosta, GA., a town 80 miles from Tallahassee with no identifiable connection to anything Lemme was doing. The motel records in Valdosta indicate that Lemme checked in on 6/29 and checked out on 6/30, yet Lemme's wife said he left home (in Tallahassee) on the morning of 6/30.
Assuming the theory is correct that the motel's time machine was a day off, and that Lemme checked into the motel on the evening of 6/30, that still doesn't explain what he was doing between the early morning of 6/30, when he called his boss, and midday of 7/1, when his body was found...after he had supposedly checked out of the motel.
It's quite clear the Valdosta P.D. not only did a poor job forensically, but mad no effort to establish a timeline for Lemme's last 48 hours on earth. Evidently having recognized this, they reopened the case in December, 2004...but closed it up again after intervention by someone at the Florida D.O.T. My God, what a mess!
Has anyone asked Mr. Clift whether he spoke to the people Lemme was supposed to have met on the afternoon of 6/30? Could there be some link between that abortive meeting and the request by the D.O.T. to stop the second investigation?
COMMENT #203 [Permalink]
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G
said on 3/9/2005 @ 5:09 pm PT...
-----IMPORTANT------IMPORTANT--------
Ray's watch was placed on the counter by the sink and it had "stopped" running. In the photo there seems to be a nice watch lying on the counter.
Most nice watches are just plain old Water Resistant and not Water Proof. Generally speaking only divers watches are totally WaterProof to 125 ft. or more. So if Ray was placed in a bath tub full of water with his arms submerged for 1/2 hour … an hour or so…waters going to enter that watch and "stop it".
The time and date stamp on the watch may be the exact time of death.
If Ray was dead obviously he couldn't place the watch on the counter …. someone else did it for him.
The watch should show signs of internal corrosion and may still contain water from the bathtub. The police should have this watch in the evidence room or the family has it.
COMMENT #204 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/9/2005 @ 5:11 pm PT...
I have a question. Why did he pack all his stuff? Did his wife know he was going out of town when he left at 5:15 am 6/30 - was she trying to reach him to tell him about a sudden meeting that came up for 1:30 that day?
How was Raymond "informed" that something came up - as he said to his boss when he called at 6:15 am 6/30, just one hour after he left home?
COMMENT #205 [Permalink]
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G
said on 3/9/2005 @ 5:15 pm PT...
Also, if my hunch is correct the watch would also contain Rays "own blood ".
COMMENT #206 [Permalink]
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Snoopy
said on 3/9/2005 @ 5:15 pm PT...
Hi Miss Persistent...regarding #194, I believe the "suicide note" was either coerced or forged. Since I don't have enough samples of Mr. Lemme's writing to compare, I'll speculate the time (along with the text) was penned by him to intentionally show a discrepancy between the note and the time on his watch. His logic for writing it then stopping his watch may have been to illustrate that the note he was forced to write was a red herring. The time on the watch probably indicates when a critical part of the crime truly occured. Perhaps just before he was killed.
Here's a new question: was the time on the watch actually 12:34pm? Usually police reports use 24-hour (sometimes called military) time. Did the investigators bother to verify this fact? If the time was just after midnight, the hour on the report should be represented by 00. If it hasn't been tampered with, the watch should be examined to determine if the time indicated was just after noon or midnight. Since it had a date feature, moving the time forward past 12 o'clock will reveal whether it was set to am or pm.
My instincts tell me that the crime happened elsewhere and his body was brought to the hotel. I wish there was a hotel surveillance camera that would prove me wrong.
That darn pill holder stands out every time I view the bathroom photo. As does the neatness of the scene.
COMMENT #207 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/9/2005 @ 5:20 pm PT...
And, in order for this to work, he would have had to bring *all* of his evidence with him. You can bet he had documentation. But, if he'd left the evidence behind (at the office?), well then, a murder wouldn't really help. To bring the evidence with him would require some trust? Did anyone freeze his work files? Ostensibly, his investigation was work-related. Is the boss in on it?
COMMENT #208 [Permalink]
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KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/9/2005 @ 5:36 pm PT...
I thought I read somewhere that there was an empty manilla folder found in the room also, but I'm not certain - somebody help me out here?
COMMENT #209 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/9/2005 @ 5:40 pm PT...
Good question Snoopy, I agree, the investigators would likely have written it in military time as a matter of habit. So, how does the story go if the time was time noon-ish?
The perpetrators would have "requested" he put 8:10 am on the note. Or, they'd have done it themselves (since there was no mention of daughter I'm inclined to think it was forged or coerced). Either way, why is that time is relatively important to their sequence? (I would doubt they would mess with the watch without messing with the note to make the two jive.)
COMMENT #210 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/9/2005 @ 5:48 pm PT...
Meet me at a rank motel in Valdosta, oh and bring all your files.
If there was an empty manila, then it's a decoy. Why take only the contents? And the manila would have prints.
COMMENT #211 [Permalink]
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american woman
said on 3/9/2005 @ 6:06 pm PT...
KestrelBrighteyes #169 asked: "Has anyone tried the route and actually clocked how long it would take at that time of morning to get from the payphone to the hotel?"
Clint Curtis tried 2 different routes. His best: 1 hour 20 minutes.
COMMENT #212 [Permalink]
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american woman
said on 3/9/2005 @ 6:22 pm PT...
COMMENT #213 [Permalink]
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The Chameleon
said on 3/9/2005 @ 6:22 pm PT...
Excellent investigative reporting. I didn't read through all the comments, so please excuse me if I am repeating someone else's earlier observation. One item that went unmentioned in your report is the fact that althought there was a claim that the flash card failed, it's clear looking at the photographs that in most cases the flash seemed to work just fine. There is an obvious reflective glare consistent with a camera flash glare throughout. In fact, in one of the bathtub photos (the blood in the corner shot), you can see the reflection(s) of the camera flash bouncing off the shower wall(s). Just another piece for you I hope. Thanks and be careful.
COMMENT #214 [Permalink]
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NAFA
said on 3/9/2005 @ 6:23 pm PT...
The number of people committing "suicide" that were involved in investigations linked to government officials (and/or companies) are becoming more frequent.
Criminals expend a tremendous amount of effort covering up their tracks. Although it's quite obvious these immoral people will stop at nothing to ensure they don't get caught, my gut tells me they're scared. They're getting careless.
On the other hand, seeing those photos...god...he was someone's husband and father. I imagine he was a good man. A man with morals. I'd like to think he believed in the job he was doing - because it was the right thing to do.
There are people out there each and every day trying to do some good, to right a wrong, to change things for the better (and not in their own interest, I might add). They might be someone trying to rid his neighborhood of crime. They might be someone like Jeffrey Weigand, who took on the tobacco industry. And sometimes, sometimes they die. And sometimes the bad guys get caught.
And they don't have to carry a gun, or even be a big movie star, to be called HERO.
The ones who paid with their lives - their deaths should not be in vain.
Thank you.
COMMENT #215 [Permalink]
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nunya
said on 3/9/2005 @ 6:35 pm PT...
Chameleon,
In this case the flash card refers to the flash memory card of a digital camera, not the flash lighting component. The flash not going off would have been a big clue to even a keystone cop like this woman. It still sounds like bullshit.
COMMENT #216 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/9/2005 @ 6:40 pm PT...
Wow! Go away for a few hours and look how long our thread has grown! I'll have to catch up, but first I want to introduce a digression which might seem to be OT but I'm pretty sure is connected somehow.
Lou Dobbs tonight did a follow-up report with Christine Romans about the sale of IBM to China, proprietary codes, sensitive military information and all (IBM has numerous military and defense contracts). Does this seem wildly, crazily skewed to you? It certainly did to Dobbs & co.
The connection I see is the obvious one: YEI is a software consulting firm owned by naturalized Chinese who employ an illegal Chinese national who steals missile chips and smuggles them to China. Tried and convicted, he receives only probation and a $100 fine.
Tom Feeney is closely connected to YEI, lobbies government contracts for them, is a close Bush family ally and most certainly knows what is going on here and why.
Two points: some huge money-making scheme is going down in partnership with China, I'm sure, and it's being slid by the American public with no trumpets blaring. So it must be something with really rotten consequences for us, the plebes of the country. Remember also that China is one of our greatest creditors and our trade deficit with her is staggering.
Lemme was on to something which, if made public, would disrupt this whatever-it-is and cost The schemers not only financially but also put paid to a grand coup of some sort. I'd bet anything that the goons that put Lemme in a head lock and murdered him either were Chinese or were paid by the YEI/Feeney/...cohort.
COMMENT #217 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/9/2005 @ 6:52 pm PT...
Snoopy #198 -
I believe we are on the same page with this. I hadn't read your post when I posted the above. It really stinks of American/Chinese collusion in something very bad, doesn't it?
COMMENT #218 [Permalink]
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nunya
said on 3/9/2005 @ 6:59 pm PT...
Steve,
--To Nunya reg. #150- Don't you think this goes way beyond CYA by the Valdosta police?
Not necessarily. CYA could cover alot of ground. Never underestimate the power of incompetence and the motivation to cover it up. Despite what your parents taught you, never trust a cop. I don't even buy the crap about "the FDOT" told us to close the case.
COMMENT #219 [Permalink]
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Nunya
said on 3/9/2005 @ 7:06 pm PT...
You are absolutely right, # 166 Bucket Rider, Clintoon killed Lemme. No wonder he's getting away with it.
"The Truth: President Bush was elected by the American public in 2000 because we were tired of being led by a president that was an embarrassment to the nation. He was reelected because the people were tired of the same old lies and class warfare tactics being spun by the Democrats. Clintoon didn't even respond to the terrorist attacks at the WTC, the embassy in Africa, and the U.S.S. Cole. Thanks to Clintoon, the Chinese have more modern nuclear payloads for their ICBMs and his foreign policies with regards to North Korea have resulted in the problems that we're having today."
And you are a baby-killer, even though you were a REMF and probably killed more people with your friendly cooking fire.
"A inquiring military veteran with twenty years of service to this great nation wants to know. : )"
COMMENT #220 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/9/2005 @ 7:10 pm PT...
************************
The Bruised Neck: Explained
"The Magic Bruise Theory"
************************
We can see from the photos, that at one point after cutting his arm, there are hand prints up high in the shower. This indicates that he was standing up in the shower.
Is it possible that Raymond, obviously losing a lot of blood, got light headed, fell backward, and hit his neck/shoulder/side of head on the corner of the ledge of the tub?
Get in your tub, and see if it makes sense. I tried it, it's possible. Was their bruising on the right side of his head? We'll never know.
COMMENT #221 [Permalink]
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nunya
said on 3/9/2005 @ 7:18 pm PT...
I don't know about all that, Fred. I don't think you can make too many assumptions from crappy crime scene photos of what might be a staged crime scene. Can you imagine why they never dusted for prints? Can you imagine how many different sets of prints they would get from a motel room, even if he had been all alone in there for the last week of his life? Lazy donut munchers.
COMMENT #222 [Permalink]
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casolaro
said on 3/9/2005 @ 7:56 pm PT...
Curtis obviously drives slower than I do. I have made the trip numerous times and my fastest time is about 45 minutes, but it's faster taking surface roads through Thomasville than taking the interstate for travel from Valdosta to downtown Tallahassee or vice versa. It would have been easy for Lemme to have checked in the night before, returned home to Tally, knowing that he'd be talking with his "source" in Valdosta the next morning (maybe he even left the "source" a room key), and then driven out really early the next morning after spending the night at home with his wife --- avoid heavy traffic that way. Calling his boss and taking his cardiac meds with him both suggest that he thought he'd be coming back.
Shannon seems to be a reasonably good person but not the most careful forensics person in the world. I would guess that she left because she didn't want to be around something this creepy anymore - it's easier on the conscience and safer for the family; I'd say best to leave her alone. Valdosta Tech doesn't pay all that well, but it's a lot safer than what seems to have been going on in the VPD - and this is by no means the first "weird" situation in Valdosta's PD - they've been having about one really weird incident every three or four years. There was the racism thing (heck, people had a public demonstration about that one), and before that there was at least one evidence-planting thing that was more or less hushed up. There's probably a lot more that someone who's well and truly Valdostan could tell you about. There are some excellent people living there, who believe in the US Constitution and all; maybe you can find one who will assist.
Hey, everyone who's been making a thing out of the "Knights Inn" - you DO recall what "Knights" were just a few short years ago in southern GA, I hope. It's very hard to get away from the past; hard for everyone. That's as may be for this particular investigation, but please keep in mind that no police department is perfect. This one has a lot of skeletons and might be subject to pressure more easily than some larger PD.
Finally, the Kangas thing (Nunya, I think, mentioned Steve K): I agree that his death was suspicious and that, at least before he stopped drinking, RMS had a terrible temper (and a foul mouth). But one need not implicate CIA or anybody hairier than one of the Scaife bodyguards in Kangas' bathroom shooting... about the only thing his method had in common with Lemme's was 1) the phone call and subsequent trip and 2) the presence of plumbing.
Granted there are a lot of people who also wind up mysteriously shooting themselves around this Administration, and there have always been a rather alarming number of small plane accidents taking out political figures, some of which were obvious assassinations, though not necessarily "ours," and others which may have been simply accidents: Francisco Sá Carneiro, Portuguese prime minister, in Dec 1980; Jaime Roldos Aguilera, President of Ecuador, in May 1981; General Omar Torrijos, leader of Panama, in July 1981; Samora Machel, Mozambique president, in Oct 1986; Arnold Raphel, U.S. Ambassador to Pakistan, in the same plane as Mohammed Zia ul-Haq, President of Pakistan, in Aug 1988 (explosive); Teresa Heinz' first senatorial husband (but that really was an accident) on April 4th 1991 and the next day Senator John Tower of Texas (that one is interesting, especially given *his* knowledge base); Cyprien Ntaryamira, president of Burundi in the same plane with Juvenal Habyarimana, president of Rwanda (bad idea, people!) - shot down on approach to Kigali, probably by one of their own, not us, Apr 6, 1994; Ron Brown, U.S. Secretary of Commerce, Apr 3, 1996 (sheesh! Beware the early April small plane!); JFK Jr, July 16, 1999 (probably an accident, conditions worsened on the flight); Salvator Socrates, Philippine governor, and Santiago Madrid, Philippine AF General, after their plane developed mechanical trouble, July 2, 2000; Thomas Allgood, Charles Yates, Mel Carnahan, Gary McPherson - all politicians, all in 2000 in small planes. Paul Wellstone, 2002. Nothing since then, except that Hugo Chavez (Venezuela) seems to think he's next on the menu --- as far as that goes, it's hard to say whether the US ambassadorial warnings to him were intended as friendly warnings about conditions within his own society or as intimidation.
I agree, it's great to see all these thoughtful people (well, minus our haggard Rider) keeping tabs on the Lemme aspect - by all accounts this was a very GOOD man, out there doing good in the world, a solid citizen. I hope Brad and Curtis can shake something loose out there - some principled person with an ironclad protection against retribution (perhaps a terminal case with no family or close friends?!). God bless, guys.
COMMENT #223 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/9/2005 @ 8:09 pm PT...
Ok, I think I have a new observation (I'm only up to #160 in reading!) Sorry for any past repeats.
THE razor blade is placed on the tub in the exact opposite angle than one would expect if one were cutting their left elbow with a blade held by the right hand!
This coincides the the pen being at the exact opposite angle as the blade but very weird angle for a righty (assuming he was righty because he cut the left elbow).
And while we're talking about weird angles, I suppose the 1st photo of the door that opens to the right is the same door as the one that opens to the left 2nd photo - but perhaps the door photo was printed out backwards?
COMMENT #224 [Permalink]
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Police Sting
said on 3/9/2005 @ 8:12 pm PT...
RE: "12:34"
Once that you've decided on a killing
First you make a stone of your heart
And if you find that your hands are still willing
Then you can turn a murder into art
There really isn't any need for bloodshed
You just do it with a little more finesse
If you can slip a tablet into someone's coffee
Then it avoids an awful lot of mess
It's murder by numbers, one, two, three
It's as easy to learn as your ABC
Murder by numbers, one, two, three
It's as easy to learn as your ABC
Now if you have a taste for this experience
And you're flushed with your very first success
Then you must try a twosome or a threesome
And you'll find your conscience bothers you much less
Because murder is like anything you take to
It's a habit-forming need for more and more
You can bump off every member of your family
And anybody else you find a bore
Because it's murder by numbers, one, two, three
It's as easy to learn as your ABC
Murder by numbers, one, two, three
It's as easy to learn as your ABC
Now you can join the ranks of the illustrious
In history's great dark hall of fame
All our greatest killers were industrious
At least the ones that we all know by name
But you can reach the top of your profession
If you become the leader of the land
For murder is the sport of the elected
And you don't need to lift a finger of your hand
Because it's murder by numbers, one, two, three
It's as easy to learn as your ABC
Murder by numbers, one, two, three
It's as easy to learn as your A, B, C, D, E
COMMENT #225 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/9/2005 @ 8:13 pm PT...
According to the original police report the room was locked from the inside! The housekeeping ladies couldn't open the door. That's why they called the police. This is huge.
So what we are supposed to believe, is that Raymond Lemme did actually check out at 6:54am, on 7/1/03, kept a key, or left the door ajar with a towel or something while he checked out.
He then went back into the room, ,b>placed the "Do Not Distrub" sign on the door, took off his watch, folded his tie, hung up his shirt, placed the rest of his belongings neatly on the counter, etc... sat down, wrote the note at 8:10am, got in the tub, and killed himself.
THAT MAKES NO SENSE WHAT-SO-EVER. Why in the hell would he "check out" (prompting cleaning ladies to clean the room) and then THINK they cleaning ladies WOULD not come in? This was a man that paid close attention to DETAIL.
Everyone knows the cleaning ladies wouldn't pay attention to the "Do Not Disturb" sign if their isn't anyone CURRENTLY PAYING FOR THE ROOM!
My proof? The cleaning ladies DID NOT pay attention to the sign, they tried to enter as reported in the Police report.
This was a murder made to look like a suicide. Pure and simple.
COMMENT #226 [Permalink]
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nunya
said on 3/9/2005 @ 8:53 pm PT...
Read Christopher Bollyn's posts from this link:
https://bradblog.com/archives/00001026.htm
"COMMENT #3 [link]
...Christopher Bollyn said on 12/20/2004 @ 11:13pm PT...
I have just returned from visiting some of the sites that the Clint Curtis affidavit points to.
The hotel room in Valdosta where Ray Lemme died was bizarre. It is the sleaziest hotel on the outskirts of town. There is no reason to think that Mr. Lemme would even want to stay there, much less take his life in such a dump.
It is past the exotic dancers' joint, just past a truck stop on the edge of a forest.
The Valdosta police are checking the recent articles, they said, and would have a comment soon.
The swing latch on the door can easily be closed with a string from the outside.
Christopher Bollyn
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT #4 [link]
...Christopher Bollyn said on 12/20/2004 @ 11:23pm PT...
The "executive secretary" for Yang, Mike Cohen, needs to be asked a few direct questions, such as:
What is a nice Jewish boy like you doing in such a racket?
Is Yang Enterprises, Inc. a Mossad front? When I spoke to the editor of the Oviedo Voice, he told me that Mrs. Yang appeared to be just a front.
It is also very odd that there was NO mention of Mr. Lemme's death in the Valdosta Daily Times. Not a word about his death on July 2 or anytime after that. The Valdosta police said that the paper shies away from suicides. "
COMMENT #227 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 3/9/2005 @ 9:05 pm PT...
I just looked at the photos (again) on "unrestricted warfare" and was puzzled by the blood on the towel on the floor ,dscf0015(far side of bath) and the next two photos.
.: towel on floor -strange that there seems to be an area of blood that has NOT run down the side of the bath but has "free fell" to the towel on the floor suggesting the arm was extended .This pattern has 2 main features ,a large amount to the right of the buckle of the belt and a lesser feature to the left .To me this is odd as for the bulk of the blood to run off the back of the arm (to the right of the belt) the arm would have to be twisted beyond normal joint movement .Try this yourself and you have to actually twist quite a way to acheive a "downhill sloop"....
Odd in its self, no?
back latter
COMMENT #228 [Permalink]
...
Jason
said on 3/9/2005 @ 9:51 pm PT...
-If that is the merchant copy of the check-out receipt then where is the customer copy?
-Why would he bother to write a suicide note without even signing his name?
-Why is the white area around the razor blade almost completely devoid of blood and why is it placed on the ledge on the opposite side of the tub and on the other side of the shower curtain?
-Could the hotel clerk verify that the man he saw checking out was in fact Lemme?
-What about security cameras?
-Why are we the only people asking questions???
COMMENT #229 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/9/2005 @ 10:10 pm PT...
People -
I just read "Unrestricted Warfare" and the hairs on the back of my neck are permanently erect. Forget the forensics. The man was indubitably murdered. What concerns me the most is the issue I raised without benefit of other input, in #216. If a major collusional coup against American democracy is taking place unnoticed under our very noses at this very moment, we must arise at once - this minute - or forever lose any hold we once had over the direction of human life.
I am not a paranoid alarmist. We all pride ourselves on being pragmatic Missourians who've "got to be shown," don't we? But this is something we have to pay attention to immediately.
Brad, you say that all networks know about this story. Have you contacted individual commentators? Does Lou Dobbs himself know of this thread? Word MUST get out. And quickly.
COMMENT #230 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/9/2005 @ 10:42 pm PT...
Casolero #222 -
Thanks for the "compendium" and thank you for your human comments. This business has gone on long enough, and without pity. A human equation without pity is inhuman. We as a species cannot stand it.
Good people, keep up the good work.
COMMENT #231 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/9/2005 @ 10:44 pm PT...
COMMENT #232 [Permalink]
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Eyeball Kid
said on 3/9/2005 @ 10:54 pm PT...
The pictures: I wonder if Lemme was a neat freak. I wonder if his friends or family would be able to identify the pattern of arranging things so neatly, such as what's beside the sink.
If he wasn't a neat freak, then the neatness was either the work of someone else, or he was trying to communicate that something was unnatural about him before he died.
So he lays out a towel near the toilet, allegedly cuts himself, spills a small amount of blood there, then walks to the bathroom, messes up the wall of the shower stall probably with his left arm or elbow, then does a 180 after he neatly lays down another towel, and sits down in the bathtub before blacking out.
If he cuts his artery, there should be far more blood than we see, and it should be everywhere. My God, the guy even bleeds neatly. There's no blood at the bottom of the tub that should have left a trail to the drain.
The dark towel or piece of rectangular cloth upon which he sits has a rumpled edge in one picture, then a smooth edge in another.
The lack of blood in the tub, coupled with the different looks of the towel would indicate that:
1. The body or the cloth was rearranged for the benefit of the camera shots, or the body was moved before a complete collection of evidence.
2. The blood may have spilled out of the body without the benefit of normal blood pressure, which might mean that Lemme was already dead or dying at the time of the damage to his left arm.
COMMENT #233 [Permalink]
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Eyeball Kid
said on 3/9/2005 @ 11:07 pm PT...
It might be worth an investigator's time to see the time cards or find out who was working at the motel at the time of the killing. I'd also want to know the travel, spending and bank transaction incidents of any and all employees at the motel, including the managerial staff, at the time just before and after the killing. It's possible that money exchanged hands.
COMMENT #234 [Permalink]
...
Concerned Citizen
said on 3/9/2005 @ 11:15 pm PT...
COMMENT #235 [Permalink]
...
Brad
said on 3/10/2005 @ 1:00 am PT...
Great work and great questions by all. Some I can answer, some I can't. I had hoped to post a followup today to do just that, but time is not currently allowing.
I will try again tomorrow to plow through all the questions, and tell you what I can. But tomorrow unfortunately or fortunately, already looks to be another big day.
Running on fumes for the moment, and struggling just to keep up. So thanks for your patience.
Have read *most* but not all of the comments above, though I will when I prepare a bunch of the answers to a bunch of the questions.
One comment I'll answer to now though...Just cuz I need to...Steve mentioned at #181:
How many hits did you get on this one Brad? Hopefully, a few donations for your efforts (my second to Cheryl in #157).
Looks like we've had upwards of 60,000 pageloads since I posted this story. And 1 donation
I won't be insulted at all if anyone cares to help close that ratio a bit
Sorry to even mention it, but this has --- obviously --- turned into a 36/7 job officially as of now, and as they say on Public Radio, we rely on you to keep us in business! (Of course, they get government grants...Whiners!
COMMENT #236 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/10/2005 @ 1:46 am PT...
Casolaro, why in your opinion would Lemme have pre-registered at Knights Inn on 6/29, then driven 80 miles back to Tallahassee, spent the night with his wife, then gotten up early to meet his contact back in Valdosta? Even if the timeline allows for his having done so, what would have been the point? To make sure he had a room available?
Is there any evidence, anywhere, of anyone in Valdosta, Georgia, who knew Ray Lemme or had any connection with the Florida D.O.T.? If no valid reason for his being there can be found, it obviously strengthens the case for his having been murdered elsewhere first.
COMMENT #237 [Permalink]
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american woman
said on 3/10/2005 @ 2:03 am PT...
Brad said: "Looks like we've had upwards of 60,000 pageloads since I posted this story. And 1 donation"
Pimpin' for Brad. Come on guys! I will if you will. The poor guy has gotten no sleep and he's doing great work.
Brad's Earned It
COMMENT #238 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 3/10/2005 @ 2:11 am PT...
Would you consider this as a "possible", Lemme had an informant/whistleblower/troll who said he needed a "safe place to talk" about this "big" case so Lemme books the room for this person and plans to meet them the following day.
You need to talk to whoever took the booking for the room ,fits with the checking out time problem as well.
COMMENT #239 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/10/2005 @ 2:28 am PT...
That's the way it looks, unless a before-the-fact connection can be established between Valdosta and either Lemme or the Florida D.O.T. A private investigator does not drive 160 miles round-trip to meet a stranger in a fleabag motel, unless he is convinced 1) the person has vital information, and 2) it can only be transmitted at that location.
It looks more and more like an inside job. Lemme wouldn't have gone to Valdosta on a wild goose chase. He was experienced in his work. An anonymous call from a crank, "Hey, Lemme, I've got some information for you. Come to Knights Inn in Valdosta and we can talk," wouldn't have cut it.
More likely it was someone he trusted at the Florida D.O.T. who said, "Ray, let's get out of town where it's safe to talk." I suspect that was the 1:30 appointment he never kept (or did keep).
COMMENT #240 [Permalink]
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Kryten42
said on 3/10/2005 @ 2:32 am PT...
First, Brad, I'd be happy to donate, but I don't have (or want) a credit card. If you have anoer means, I'd be happy to transfer some dollars to you! Mail me with details please.
Also, just wanted to apologise for baiting that stupid little Troll earlier, I couldn't resist it! I'm a bad boy...
For those interested in the Trade Deficit and China in particular (though Japan is by FAR the biggest creditor!) Check this out (From the US Treasury):
http://www.ustreas.gov/tic/mfh.txt
And compare it to previous years:
http://www.ustreas.gov/tic/mfhhis01.txt
And as I said earlier, if Japan ever decided to sell even a fraction of the debt to China, that would be VERY bad! One last thing, I have a Japanese University exchange student staying in my home right now. Her father is a wealthy Jpanese industrialist. She said that there is a growing core of wealthy people in Japan that have not (and will never) forgive the USA for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And who is surprised? I am sure that Iraq will remember the USA fondly also... *NOT*!
And now we have pissed off Italy! Will we never learn???
COMMENT #241 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/10/2005 @ 2:43 am PT...
or someone who had previously given good info to bait such a trap once the bad guy realised he was on to them anyway ?
needs people on the ground to gather evidence
COMMENT #242 [Permalink]
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Kryten42
said on 3/10/2005 @ 2:45 am PT...
Hmmmm....
Based upon everything I have read here and elsewhere, I must agree with Robert Lockwood Mills, *IF* He did in fact drive to Valdosta. Or, perhaps he was driven there, conscious or unconscious.
COMMENT #243 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/10/2005 @ 5:14 am PT...
The problem with the theory that Lemme was driven to Valdosta as a dead body is all the blood in the bathtub (assuming it really was blood, which the police's photographer could have easily confirmed). He couldn't have bled that much as a corpse driven from Florida to Georgia to avoid an autopsy. And, getting a dead body into a hotel room, when that same room has been registered to the same person, alive, is something of a project.
Lemme had been working for a while to uncover corruption inside the Florida D.O.T. He told Curtis he was close to establishing a chain of wrongdoing that went "all the way to the top." Lemme couldn't have gotten that far without cooperation from informants inside the agency.
Anyone who gave him dope on higher-ups would have had his or her career and personal safety at stake, sp it isn't surprising that nobody has come forward. But if any of those higher-ups, or anyone at Yang (Henry Nee?) had gotten wind of Lemme's progress because of leaks within the inside network, then it naturally follows that these people would have arranged Lemme's murder in a state where an autopsy might be avoided (and was).
The same leak that clued the higher-ups in to the danger involved could have compromised Lemme's informant to the extent that he or she participated in luring Lemme to Valdosta. That would explain his willingness to go there as a "safe place to talk, out of town, where we won't be noticed."
COMMENT #244 [Permalink]
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Kryten42
said on 3/10/2005 @ 5:45 am PT...
I agree that transporting a dead body wouldn't have worked, which is why I said conscious or unconscious. The trouble is, everything is too vague, misleading, incomplete etc. It's difficult to make and definite determinations about what really happened. The people who know anything, are not talking.
Either his signature was faked, or he could have signed under some kind of duress. Perhaps his family were threatened. He obviously loved them a great deal.
The *evidence* that I have seen up until now, seems very incomplete. It raises far too many questions. The only reason things would have been as sloppy as they appear to be if the murder were carried out by someone very competent, is if they were certain it would never see the light of day! But, if there was no certainty of that, then it appears that the attempt at making it look like a suicide, is very amateurish.
COMMENT #245 [Permalink]
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Kryten42
said on 3/10/2005 @ 5:58 am PT...
I should have added: One thing I *am* certain of, is that the Valdosta PD know a lot more than they are admitting! There is more than enough evidence to suggest that at the very least, Mr. Lemme's death was suspicious! He should have had an autopsy at the least, and (going by PD procedures as I know them) should have had an initial murder investigation. And that worries me.
COMMENT #246 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/10/2005 @ 6:01 am PT...
It might seem amateurish to us, but it did work...at least temporarily. The verdict was "suicide."
I can't help but look at the Lemme case as microcosmic of a larger problem, i.e., the reflexive dismissal of "conspiracy theories" by the mainstream media. Malvelolent people can murder a decent man for doing his job, cover it up with an awkward staged suicide, yet when intelligent men and women look at the facts and say, "No way, Jose," guess what? WE BECOME THE FOOLS IN TIN HATS, BECAUSE THE PRESS WON'T TOUCH IT!
The New York Times and CNN have got to be made to understand that people murdered Ray Lemme with the expectation that any effort to disavow the staged suicide would be dismissed as a crazy theory put forth by conspiracy-minded liberals. It's no longer left and right, friends...it's true vs. false.
I've asked Bill Keller at the New York Times to assign an investigative reporter to the case. Please, everyone, write one e-mail to a newspaper, send one letter to a TV station, make one phone call to a congressman, tell one friend. Ray Lemme must not have died in vain.
COMMENT #247 [Permalink]
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Kryten42
said on 3/10/2005 @ 6:18 am PT...
Again, I agree. The problem is that when I read stories such as this one in Raw Story, I despair of any of the MSM doing anything but supporting Bush and co.
http://rawstory.com/news/2005/index.php?p=167
However, you are right that we cannot give up! There must still be investigators and reporters with some sort of morals and ethics. Perhaps if their consciences prod them hard enough, or they believe they will get enough support, they will move. Sadly, as most things are in todays World, it about money.
Here is a good article about what happened to Dan Rather. Sadly, that has made other journalists very cautious! I believe Rather was set up to be an example to the others.
http://observer.com/pages/nytv.asp
It seems that whenever the MSM do get forced to publish something negative to Bush or his agents, they always down play it, or put some kind of spin on it to depreciate the truth.
COMMENT #248 [Permalink]
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Scott
said on 3/10/2005 @ 6:21 am PT...
The crime family who created this "suicide" is organized, and unless we are as well. impenetrable. With 'law enforcement', and corporate media psy-ops surrounding US like this,....let this one be proven, if not Guckert/Gannon/Rove/McClellan, or
Bush's murdered prostitute in TX. My God, indeed it was all "hard work".
No wonder he believes in getting "Raptured", bringing us all down the drain--(prophecywatch.org)
PRIVATISE MY PRIVATES!!!!
COMMENT #249 [Permalink]
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lewis
said on 3/10/2005 @ 6:23 am PT...
Brad,
I would like to make a donation, but I need to send you a check. I couldn't find any information on the site about how to do that (i.e. who to make it out to, where to mail it). Perhaps you could put this information up at the top of the screen on the home page for myself and others like me for whom Paypal is, for one reason or another, not an option.
Also, I run a non-profit organization with an online newsletter. Many people come to the site, read the newsletter, take the information they need for whatever project they're working on, and leave. No "thank you," no donation. This has been going on for several years. My experience has been that as long as people can continue to get all the information they need for free, very few will go to the trouble (and expense) of making a donation. This is just the nature of the Internet. People associate it and everything on it with being "free."
For this reason, we are in process of converting portions of our web site, including the newsletter, to "members-only." People will be able to read the first few para's of an article for free, but if they want to see the whole thing, they will have to become a member. I know this will be frustrating for people, and will reduce our readership. But the service we are providing costs us time and money, and we can no longer continue to provide this service when so few people are willing to voluntarily support it.
I think you may need to consider doing the same thing: Locking down some of your content and requiring people to make a donation of $10 or $20 bucks for annual membership dues before they can read it.
It sucks, I know. But trust me. If you continue down this road, where you're getting 60,000 downloads a day and one donation, you will not be in this business for long. You will just wear yourself thin and become very frustrated with the whole thing. And who could blame you? Wouldn't everyone become very frustrated if they worked 24/7 on a sensational story, then posted it and got one lousy donation?
You can't really blame your visitors, either. They mean well. They really do. And they appreciate what you're doing. But unless they're trying to do the same thing themselves, they simply aren't able to understand why their financial support is so critical.
Just something to think about. Keep up the good work!
COMMENT #250 [Permalink]
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Eyeball Kid
said on 3/10/2005 @ 6:35 am PT...
re: 88, 89, 93
If you're still around and have some more troll work to do:
Lemme was holding information from the 2000 election, not the 2004 election.
I'm covering a small piece of informational turf that I don't think anyone else covered yet. I want to make sure that if the two of you are still around, I'm suggesting that you read some background information before you deride the efforts displayed on this blog.
COMMENT #251 [Permalink]
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Kryten42
said on 3/10/2005 @ 6:42 am PT...
I understand what you mean Robert, I should have made that last statement more clear perhaps. What I meant by *amateurish* is this:
If we think it's amateurish based upon the (supposed) evidence we have seen, then why wouldn't it seem that way to the Valdosta PD? Surely they have far more information and evidence than we have to go on. So, either they believe the evidence conclusively points to suicide (and either we are wrong, or they are incompetent), or - they covered it up. If so, the question is, why?
COMMENT #252 [Permalink]
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bow
said on 3/10/2005 @ 7:28 am PT...
How many DEAD JOURNALISTS so far anyway? Somethings definitely not right here.
COMMENT #253 [Permalink]
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bow
said on 3/10/2005 @ 7:29 am PT...
How many DEAD JOURNALISTS so far anyway? Somethings definitely not right here.
The number will only continue to grow... just like all the deaths (mystereious or "suicides") related to Johnny Gosch and the Franklin Creit Union Cover up that had ties to the first bush Admin.
COMMENT #254 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/10/2005 @ 7:40 am PT...
Re: Transporting a Corpse
I've seen at other sites discussing these matters that SUPPOSEDLY Lemme was for some reason going to MOODY AIR FORCE BASE...
which is in Valdosta, GA.
So, if the beating/subduing took place there (hence the bruising), Lemme could easily have been transported to the Knights Inn for the kill.
Google "Lemme" and "Moody Air Force"
COMMENT #255 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/10/2005 @ 7:42 am PT...
Kryten, if Chief Childress really believed the evidence pointed to suicide, he wouldn't have reopened the investigation in December. He sounds to me like an honest guy who has been overcome by circumstances he wasn't prepared for.
I think the first investigation was simply slipshod, not corrupt. The people who committed this murder weren't going to tip their hands by intimidating cops unless it was necessary...and with the suicide finding, it didn't seem that it was. So I think the Valdosta P.D. just blew it, possibly because they didn't have the funding for a major investigation.
Now we have an entirely different situation. Every hour, more and more people are looking at Ray Lemme's suicide and saying, "NOT!" When Brad first stirred the pot, they reopened the case, and IT IS AT THAT POINT THAT THE BAD PEOPLE IN THE FLORIDA D.O.T AND/OR YANG AND/OR THE U.S. CONGRESS STARTED TO THROW THEIR WEIGHT AROUND.
Either the media think this is political, and don't want to make a "Dan Rather" type mistake by chasing bad leads, or they're afraid of the Bush administration's capacity for exclusion and retaliation, or they think it's somehow patriotic not to expose high-level political corruption in wartime.
But I'm still hopeful, because there's what might be called a "Law of Proportionate Revulsion" involved here. When enough people intuit that something mendacious has happened, and powerful and nasty people are getting away with bad things, they get ticked off. That's what happened during Watergate, and nobody got murdered there. I think that will happen again here, because while politics is more polarized, human nature hasn't changed that much since 1974.
COMMENT #256 [Permalink]
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SF
said on 3/10/2005 @ 7:48 am PT...
The FDOT would have had literal reams of Lemme's handwriting, which is easy to fake.
Getting the CC companies records (if they haven't already been altered) is crucial.
As for Moody Air Force base, yes, it is in Valdosta, GA.
And, yes, Lemme was an active USAF reservist.
But that's the only connections I've heard about. Nothing about him being called there.
Any further information about that would be appreciated.
COMMENT #257 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/10/2005 @ 8:02 am PT...
Good points all along Robert. And interesting about your political media thoughts. Is it safe to say that if the MSM doesn't report on something then it's likely a political issue?
Can someone post an updated timeline. I'm confused. Lemme makes reservation the night before. Lemme leaves at 5.15a calls his boss to say he'll be late 6.15a halfway to Valdosta. Gets there and unpacks all his toiletries?
COMMENT #258 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/10/2005 @ 8:28 am PT...
There's just no logical reason for Ray Lemme to have driven all the way to Valdosta on 6/29 just to make a reservation in a fleabag motel, then have driven all the way home to spend the night, then left early the next morning to go back there.
Even if he did all this, there's no accounting for his time between his phone call to his boss from the road at 6:15 a.m. on 6/30, and the discovery of his body at mid-day of 7/1, in a room he'd already checked out of! It's vital that the clerk on duty be shown a photo of Ray Lemme and asked, "Is this the man who made the reservation on 6/29?" and "Did this same man check in on 6/30 and out on 7/1?"
Thanks to Curiouser. The Moody A.F.B. link leads to the Wayne Masden story, but doesn't provide a reason for why Lemme would have gone there in the midst of his investigative work. He was a reservist, but a connection to the case is missing.
COMMENT #259 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/10/2005 @ 8:33 am PT...
RLM - Here's a conjecture.
Say Lemme got a call from a trusted source who asked to meet him in Valdosta with information regarding Lemme's findings.
Say the trusted source asked Lemme to meet him at the Knights Inn.
What is clear is that Lemme considered this to be a 'big case' and, given what he had found and the way Curtis describes Lemme's comments about it, Lemme might have very well have been willing to go to such a clandestine meeting.
That seems the most reasonable conjecture to me.
COMMENT #260 [Permalink]
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SF
said on 3/10/2005 @ 8:40 am PT...
Curiouser - The "trusted source" wouldn't even need to have mentioned the Knights Inn. It might have been arranged for them to meet at Moody AFB or a coffee shop. Anywhere.
Then, expanding on your conjecture, Lemme could have been subdued by the 3 mysterious men later sighted at the hotel who took his body to the Knights Inn, alive or freshly dead, to stage a suicide.
COMMENT #261 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 3/10/2005 @ 8:58 am PT...
re #251: Eyeball Kid: I think you may have missed the point of the posts you criticized (#88, 89 and 93). The readers to whom you suggested "that you read some background information before you deride the efforts displayed on this blog" are pretty well up-to speed, by the way. And they weren't deriding anything except a few dumb statements made earlier on this thread (especially #21 and 37). So don't fret; they're with you!
COMMENT #262 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/10/2005 @ 9:14 am PT...
This may get truncated...
Paperwork from the Valdosta PD 'investigation' can be found at this link:
http://insider-magazine.com/ValdostaPD.html
A photocopy of a 'Supplemental Detective Report' by Eugene Bell, Jr., Sergeant states:
"On July 1, 2003 at approximately 1347 hours, I spoke with an occupant of room #234. The individual identified himself as Michael Davis, Age: 29 of [crossed out], Meigs, Georgia. He was a black male. Palmer gave me a brief verbal statement, claiming that he had never actually seen Raymond Lemme. He claimed to have seen Lemme's vehicle parked in the parking area adjacent to room #132 since the previous Sunday afternoon (June 30, 2003) at approximately 1530 hours. Palmer told me that he had not seen or heard any strange occurrences."
"On July 1, 2003 at approximately 1357 hours, I spoke with a white female who identified herself as Judy Gregory, Age: 39 of [crossed out[ Room #236, Valdosta, Georgia. Gregory told me that she was temporarily living at the motel until she found a permanent residence. ... Gregory claimed that at approximately 0800 hours on July 1, 2003, she was on her way to a storage area when she saw three (3) men standing in the parking lot across from room #132 [Lemme's room] and adjacent the wooded area, speaking. Gregory stated that she thought it to be strange that the three men would be standing there. According to Gregory, the men spoke in a normal tone of voice and appeared to be having a normal conversation. Gregory stated that she initially thought the men were conducting an illegal drug transaction. She stated that she simply went on about her business. I asked her to describe the men she saw. She described them as being two (2) black males and one (1) possible white male. While she had no other description of the possible white male other than the fact that he might have been a white male, Gregory described one black male as being light skinned, weighing approximately 200 pounds or more and being approximately six feet in height. She described the second black male as being dark skinned and weighing approximately 180 pounds or more. I asked Gregory if she ever say Raymond Lemme. She claimed to never have seen him to her knowledge. Gregory stated that she had not seen nor heard anything else that struck her as being strange. [Her 16 year old daughter] Heather Gregory told me that she had seen the two black males standing in the same location as described by her mother, talking at approximately 0730 hours on July 1, 2003. I passed on the information that I received to Detective Spencer."
QUESTION: Did Sgt. Bell ask Judy or Heather Gregory (Room #236) if they had ever seen Michael Davis (Room # 234), and whether or not he looked like either of the black males they had spotted adjacent to the woods?
COMMENT #263 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/10/2005 @ 9:42 am PT...
Maybe Lemme was told to/or wanted to check out before anything final happened in order to save extra accruals on the credit card.
COMMENT #264 [Permalink]
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KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/10/2005 @ 10:10 am PT...
Okay, he reserved the room the night before at 6:44 PM, possibly by phone but didn't stay there - has anyone checked phone records from the hotel? From his house?
Where was he at that time of night on a Sunday night?
I'm not buying the bit about hotel receipts being screwed up on the date - 2003 wasn't a leap year, so why would their dates be screwed up at ALL, much less in June-July? And hotels have to be careful about dates because generally rates are higher on weekends.
This should be easily verifiable anyway, through the credit card company AND through receipts, bills, etc held by anyone else who checked into or out of the hotel during those couple of days.
Who were the witnesses that saw three men outside the hotel? Were they hotel guests? I'd be looking for them and ask to see their receipts.
Also, King's Inn is a chain - the home office should have copies of the records as well. And I'd definitely be checking out whomever was on the desk that night.
Who picked up the passkey to the room, and when?
The rest of my post is circumstantial and purely deductive reasoning that can't be proven as evidence. That said...
I don't know a man alive who could be excited about his daughter's wedding and voluntarily miss the chance to walk her down the aisle. IMHO, IF he were going to commit suicide, he'd have waited for AFTER the wedding.
I didn't see any major toiletries other than the comb, in fact, it looks the hand soap hasn't even been opened nor the hand towel used. That tells me he probably wasn't there and concious very long - people who are that neat generally wash their hands after using the restroom, and people who get up that early and drive that far, especially drinking coffee (and water, according to the photos), usually do that first thing when they get to the room.
And do you know ANYONE who would be meticulous enough to lay out their possessions in such a way and NOT push the chair up to the desk when they got up? It's absolute and unconcious habit (I know, I live with one of "those guys")
Just thoughts...too many unanswered questions.
COMMENT #265 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/10/2005 @ 10:17 am PT...
Curiouser: Your conjecture sounds plausible. But it leaves us with a timeline problem.
A trusted friend says, "Meet me at Knights Inn," or "Meet me at Moody A.F.B." If this invitation was made on 6/29, why would Lemme have gone there, registered at the motel, then driven all the way back to Tallahassee to sleep without having resolved whatever the call was about?" On the other hand, if he got the call on 6/30, he would have had no reason to visit Valdosta on 6/29 or to pre-register at a fleabag motel.
Your theory might fit if the time clock at Knights Inn had in fact been a day off, and Lemme registered there at 6:54 p.m. on 6/30, not 6/29. He left home at 5:15 a.m. on 8/30 (wife's testimony), left a message for his boss from the road at 6:15 a.m. (Clift's testimony) to the effect that he "wouldn't be in" or "would be late" (we should know which of these is correct...it's important).
This pattern by Lemme would make sense if he had gotten a late phone call on 6/29 from someone he trusted (as you suggest), urging him to come to Valdosta as early as possible on 6/30 (hence his 5:15 a.m. departure). Clift apparently tried to reach him about a 1:30 p.m. appointment that he apparently failed to keep (we need to know a lot more about that...whom did Clift speak to?).
If Lemme was in Valdosta all day on 6/30, as seems probable, he must have learned enough to want to stay over until 7/1. If we assume the timeclock was a day off, he checked into the motel at 6:54 p.m., meaning absent the expectation of learning more on 7/1, he could simply have driven home and arrived at Tallahassee by 8;15 or so.
But none of this makes sense if in fact Lemme went to the motel on 6/29 to pre-register. We have to know if the timeclock was correct; if it wasn't, it looks pretty certain that somebody else was masquerading as Raymond Lemme, in which case the finding of suicide can be categorically dismissed.
COMMENT #266 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/10/2005 @ 10:18 am PT...
Meant to say, "If the timeclock WAS correct, somebody was masquerading as Raymond Lemme."
COMMENT #267 [Permalink]
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KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/10/2005 @ 10:29 am PT...
According to the police report, there were people interviewed who said they checked in on the 29th - what date was on their check-in slip?
COMMENT #268 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/10/2005 @ 10:42 am PT...
Eyeball Kid #251 -
If you think we are trolls or have not been keeping track of this story for months, think again! Although I haven't really "met" Nunya yet, I'm sure we'll get around to "introducing" ourselves.
Winter Patriot #262 -
Thanks
COMMENT #269 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/10/2005 @ 10:46 am PT...
Thanks for the link to those reports. Much to look at!
Why would Floyd (whom I no longer like and now highly suspect) remove the suicide note from the planner to bag it?! Why would she not bag the whole freaking planner. Perhaps the planner was switched out after removal of the note.
She says driver's license was on the vanity - but another report says Lemme's wallet was in his car. But then receipts were found on him? Is it normal to leave your wallet in the car, put your license on the vanity but without a credit card also on the vanity? Where was the credit card used to check in and out - also in the wallet in the car).
Floyd makes too big a deal of how hard it would be to open the locked door. AND, the report written by Sgt Wheeler (he got there 2nd just after Gortman )first says that they were able to get right in. But then, at the END of the report they (add) a few lines (backtracking) about how hard it was to get in and how they practice on another door first. THAT was added later I'm sure.
COMMENT #270 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/10/2005 @ 10:49 am PT...
Robert, I think wife's affidavit says that he called his boss and left a message saying that he would be in late, something came up, AND that he would call later.
COMMENT #271 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/10/2005 @ 10:53 am PT...
RLM - Obviously, a hit team could have secured the room on the 29th using Lemme's name and forging a signature.
But using a forger who was a Lemme lookalike as well? (If you trust the hotel employee's verification of Lemme being the signee, which I presume was done.)
The police report notes that Judy Gregor was asked if she recognized Lemme. It does not note if she was asked if Michael Davis was one of the 3 men spotted.
[Just an aside - Lemme's watch said "12:34"; Davis was in Room #234. Maybe just a coinicdence, but...]
COMMENT #272 [Permalink]
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KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/10/2005 @ 10:54 am PT...
Okay y'all, I found something odd.
Anybody got a 2003 calendar handy?
June 29th - Sunday
June 30th - Monday
July 1 - Tuesday
And yet the police report by Eugene Bell refers to a witness who had seen Lemme's vehicle the day before, and refers to the date as SUNDAY, June 30th - what's up with that?
Also, Sabita Vallait indicated Lemme had checked in early the night before - that would have been June 30th - and never checked out - yet his signature was on the checkout receipt dated for early on the MORNING of the 30th. The date discrepancy has been pointed out, but how did she explain the other discrepancies?
COMMENT #273 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 3/10/2005 @ 10:55 am PT...
re #263: Curioser: nothing gets truncated here. We request that you post links to online articles. rather than pasting them here in their entirety, but it's always ok to quote a few paragraphs. If you have something original to say, or something to quote that's not online, there is no rule limiting the length of your comment.
We try to keep the cross-talk and OT posts to a minimum on "serious" threads, and we always request that you treat other posters with respect, but otherwise there are very few rules as to what you can post here.
I hope that makes things clear. Carry on, please!
COMMENT #274 [Permalink]
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KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/10/2005 @ 11:05 am PT...
I also found it odd that he'd bring in his driver's license and leave his wallet in the car. Where was his credit card that he used to pay for the room?
COMMENT #275 [Permalink]
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KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/10/2005 @ 11:19 am PT...
The photographs don't lie, there was blood clearly visible on the towel on the floor, and the report by C. Spencer stated that there was some blood on the bathroom door - so what could possibly be the reason for stating that there was dried blood on the belt but not the towel when it was so obvious?
Incompetence?
Was the body or other evidence moved before it was photographed, allowing blood to spill on the towel?
How long has this man been a cop, and has he made such blatent mistakes before?
COMMENT #276 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/10/2005 @ 11:21 am PT...
Winter Patriot: I did give a link to the PDF/scanned document that I quoted from, which I had to type out by hand.
I'm sure you'll appreciate the inconvenience of that.
COMMENT #277 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/10/2005 @ 12:08 pm PT...
Concerned Citizen-
My god, that's a bitter list. But they've got to dig up less circumstantial stuff than that. These guys wouldn't be convicted if they were photographed with the smoking murder weapon in their hand, because someone would jump in to claim the photo-op was set up by those murderous left-wingers.
COMMENT #278 [Permalink]
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Merlin's Eye
said on 3/10/2005 @ 12:08 pm PT...
Concerning the word "family underlined on the suicide note, you recall Lemme telling Curtis "this goes all the way to the top", I wonder if when the fog clears, you'll find "family" buried in the bushes.
COMMENT #279 [Permalink]
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Merlin's Eye
said on 3/10/2005 @ 12:11 pm PT...
Concerning the word "family underlined on the suicide note, you recall Lemme telling Curtis "this goes all the way to the top", I wonder if when the fog clears, you'll find "family" buried in the bushes.
COMMENT #280 [Permalink]
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Merlin's Eye
said on 3/10/2005 @ 12:14 pm PT...
Concerning the word "family underlined on the suicide note, you recall Lemme telling Curtis "this goes all the way to the top", I wonder if when the fog clears, you'll find "family" buried in the bushes.
COMMENT #281 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 3/10/2005 @ 12:25 pm PT...
Hey Curiouser: I've read my comment (#274) again and and again again and now I can finally see how you might have misunderstood me. I wasn't really clear at all. Let me try again.
I have no complaint with your post. You suggested that it might get truncated, and I was trying to say "No, no, don't worry about that!"
But at the same time, since there are so many new contributors around, I wanted to explain what we like to see, so everyone would be aware of what sorts of things we might be tempted to truncate. Let's try again:
In general, we ask posters not to post a big honking thing if they can post a link to it.
Your post was not a "big honking thing". Not even close. And you provided a link. So we would have no reason to truncate you. No reason to complain at all.
I would never have mentioned it except that you asked. Also ... I DO appreciate the inconvenience of dealing with scanned PDFs. [Believe me just this once --- I appreciate it big-time!] You're doing great. Sorry I was unclear. Please carry on!
COMMENT #282 [Permalink]
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Merlin's Eye
said on 3/10/2005 @ 12:31 pm PT...
Sorry for the multiple posts... first time here heard about this on Air America.
They do say good things come in threes. Anyway, Brad... Thanx for being there doing the dangerous work!!!
COMMENT #283 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 3/10/2005 @ 12:36 pm PT...
I'm reposting this as I think it deserve comment
(from my earlier post)
I just looked at the photos (again) on "unrestricted warfare" and was puzzled by the blood on the towel on the floor ,dscf0015(far side of bath) and the next two photos.
.: towel on floor -strange that there seems to be an area of blood that has NOT run down the side of the bath but has "free fell" to the towel on the floor suggesting the arm was extended .This pattern has 2 main features ,a large amount to the right of the buckle of the belt and a lesser feature to the left .To me this is odd as for the bulk of the blood to run off the back of the arm (to the right of the belt) the arm would have to be twisted beyond normal joint movement .Try this yourself and you have to actually twist quite a way to acheive a "downhill sloop"....
Odd in its self, no?
COMMENT #284 [Permalink]
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Merlin's Eye
said on 3/10/2005 @ 12:59 pm PT...
For those who aren't aware, There has been alot of microbiologists who have been recently dieing under very suspicious circumstances.
Checkout www.stevequayle.com ... link "QFiles" then link "Dead Scientists".
COMMENT #285 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/10/2005 @ 1:11 pm PT...
Winter Patriot #274 -
I may be wrong, but I interpreted Curioser to mean that the document might be clipped or "truncated" at its own web address - so C decided to reproduce it in full. I did not understand him/her to mean that BradBlog would alter it.
Communication sure is tricky on these lo-o-o-ong threads.
COMMENT #286 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 3/10/2005 @ 1:13 pm PT...
re #284. Good one. Thanks to Merlin's Eye. That's some spooky stuff, worthy of discussion but probably not on this thread. I've posted a link to the Dead Scientists on a more open thread. Join us there for further discussion, if you like.
COMMENT #287 [Permalink]
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G
said on 3/10/2005 @ 1:47 pm PT...
It's the WATCH!!!
So, the body has been cremated and much evidence has disappeared with it.
However, at this point one of the more obvious ways to determine whether this was a murder or suicide is with the "WATCH".
It was placed neatly "on the counter" and police report indicated it had stopped at 12:34 on June 30th. The police report also indicated the time of death for Ray around 8:10am on June 30th? He was "supposably" last seen at motel front desk check at 6:54am and supposably called his boss at 6:15 on same day June 30th?
The real question is…. Why did the watch "Stop"? Did Ray (4 hours and 24 minutes after his death) decide to get out of the tub, pull the stem out to set and/or stop the hands movement and get back in or did "water" … again … I say did "WATER" at some point enter the watch and short out the battery operated electronic movement?
If so, then the watch was on Ray's left wrist when somebody cut his left forearm to murder him. The watch must have spent considerable time in bloody bath water. If so, the water leaked in around the watch case back or stem seals and "shorted out" the battery operated watch? The murders must have forgot about the watch until they were ready to leave. In the photos you can plainly see his left arm lying on the bottom of the bathtub which is where it would have lain had the watch been on his wrist. The murders forgot the watch, left it on his arm during the murder in the water and removed it later, rinsed it off and placed it on the counter.
It's the watch! Check inside the watch for signs of Ray 's blood (DNA) and bath water/moisture probably still "INSIDE" the watch. Maybe some DNA is still on the outside case and band.
Also, to the best of my knowledge nobody in the US sells double-edged razor blades anymore, that's foreign product (Mexico, Argentina, China etc.)
Also, Ray wasn't prepared for overnight stay no suitcase, no travel bag, and no toothpaste or toothbrush just everyday stuff he would always carry with him. The only other thing on the counter was Motel soap, shampoo, washcloth etc. This was last minute thing, not a planned trip he didn't intend to spend the night anywhere.
Also, sheriff report indicated door was locked a dead bolt from inside. That's an old ground floor outside entrance Holiday Inn Motel built in late 60's or early 70's. Those were built with "aluminum door frames". I can't tell you how many of those I've stayed in that the doors were jimmied from the outside. Just look at the middle of the aluminum door frames for pry marks. Crooks take a small flat pry bar jam it in the springy soft aluminum door frame leaning on the pry bar and pop the door open … they grab the wallets off the counter and run back out the door. In one night crooks could brake into two or three rooms in a row. The only way to stop them is to jam a chair at an angle under the door handle.
Anyway, the point of the above story is simply this; you can open and leave that particular type door/frame with a pry bar. You "lock the door dead bolt" close it upto the aluminum doorframe, spring the door with the pry bar and slide the dead bolt jam around the frame into the hole, bingo it's shut and now locked from the inside. It would take 3 or 4 seconds at the most.
COMMENT #288 [Permalink]
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G
said on 3/10/2005 @ 1:53 pm PT...
Again, check inside the watch.
It's the watch people. Prove it was a murder, then someone will be forced to investigate it.
Look inside the dam watch!!!
IT"S THE WATCH!!!!!!!!
COMMENT #289 [Permalink]
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G
said on 3/10/2005 @ 1:59 pm PT...
Winter Patriot-
Tell Brad to pass on the above info to VPD check the inside of the watch for DNA.
COMMENT #290 [Permalink]
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bizkit
said on 3/10/2005 @ 2:17 pm PT...
810 time
+1234 watch
---------------
=2044, which is the unicode character for a slash on your keyboard.
Just thought it was creepy....
COMMENT #291 [Permalink]
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Winter Patriot
said on 3/10/2005 @ 2:23 pm PT...
(#289) G: I don't have to tell Brad anything. You have already told him.
Brad reads all the comments, eventually. I try to keep things running smoothly while he digs or sleeps or does radio interviews or whatever, but don't worry: he's reading you.
COMMENT #292 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 3/10/2005 @ 2:23 pm PT...
about the watch....the chance it would stop at 12.34 was said to be 0.01% ..also if you submerge an electronic watch it will run for quite a while ...days not hours ...before it will short out....I've worked with electronics for over 25years and have seen many examples of this with cell phones ,cameras and like .Water is not a very good conductor of "low voltage " electricity.
The interesting thing about the time the watch was stopped at is referred to in post #263.
A photocopy of a 'Supplemental Detective Report' by Eugene Bell, Jr., Sergeant states:
"On July 1, 2003 at approximately 1347 hours, I spoke with an occupant of room #234. The individual identified himself as Michael Davis, Age: 29 of [crossed out], Meigs, Georgia. He was a black male. Palmer gave me a brief verbal statement, claiming that he had never actually seen Raymond Lemme. He claimed to have seen Lemme's vehicle parked in the parking area adjacent to room #132 since the previous Sunday afternoon (June 30, 2003) at approximately 1530 hours. Palmer told me that he had not seen or heard any strange occurrences."
If 1234 is not a sign for Lemme maybe Room 234 is,has anybody tried to track down this person or has he "disappeared" ?
Blood patterns are a science in modern police investigations these days.
COMMENT #293 [Permalink]
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G
said on 3/10/2005 @ 3:13 pm PT...
MMIIXX #292
Your generalization is about eletronics doesn't equal my personal experiences.
Cell phones and camera's do not like swimming pools or lake water even for 5 or 10 seconds... been there and done that with some very nice eletronic equipment. Old & new eletronic watches ("Water resistent") don't like garden hose water, bath tub, swimming pools or lake water. Even divers watch ("Waterproof" to 125 feet) will leak if a seal has been damaged.
Again, water could and does enter around "old" or damaged gaskets and deteriorating stem seals that a store employee (i.e.; Walmart, Kmart, Osco etc.) cut or twisted while replacing the watch back after installing a battery. It happens all the time.
Respectfully, I disagree with your opinion/assumption about watches, cameras and cell phones ... you repairedthe ones still working ... you are "INCORRECT".
Again, if the stem wasn't pulled out then what stopped the watch? A mixture of water and blood??????
COMMENT #294 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/10/2005 @ 3:30 pm PT...
By "truncated" I meant number of charcters allowed per post and I apologize for reading you wrong, WP.
Re: Double Sided Razor -
Det. Craig Spencer's 'Detective Report' states on page 3 (which you can see at http://insider-magazine.com/ValdostaPD.html:
"On July 8, 2003 at approximately 1420 hours, I went to the Fast Break and met with Matt Porter. I viewed their videotapes, but did not see Raymond Lemme enter the store. I asked Porter if the [sic] sold disposable razors and he showed me their selection. The type found in Lemme's room was not sold at the Fast Break."
Re: Michael Davis -
A very common name, granted. Mr. Davis is said to be 29 years old in the police report.
I hope nobody will think I'm trying to misdirect here, but I did find the following info about a Michael Davis age 45 in 2002 (48-29=19 so he would be old enough to be the father of the Michael Davis named in the police report) who pimped kids in northern Georgia [http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/gan/text_version/press_textversion/06-14-02.html]:
TWELVE PIMPS SENTENCED FOR PROSTITUTING CHILDREN
June 14, 2002
William S. Duffey, Jr., United States Attorney for the Northern District of Georgia, and Theodore Jackson, Special Agent in Charge, Federal Bureau of Investigation, announce that sentences have been handed down this week by United States District Judge J. Owen Forrester against 12 DEFENDANTS, on multiple charges relating to a scheme of child prostitution and child exploitation in the city of Atlanta.
...
MICHAEL DAVIS, 45
a/k/a "Hollywood"
6 victims
Prison Term (no parole): 5 yrs.
-----------------------------------
More about Michael "Hollywood" Davis [http://www.protectionproject.org/vt/2002/ne123.htm [scroll down 1/3 of the page]
PIMPING TRIAL: 'SELLING DREAMS' HELPS LURE GIRLS, DEFENDANT SAYS
"There was a lot of young girls out there," Michael Davis testified. In exchange for a lesser sentence, Davis agreed to help federal prosecutors in their cases against two other men accused of participating in a prostitution enterprise that used girls as young as 10."
Davis was the first witness in the federal child prostitution trial of Charles "Sir Charles" Pipkins, 56, considered in the pimp world as having international stature, and Andrew "Batman" Moore, 38. They are accused of participating in a pimp ring that enticed, recruited or kidnapped girls from middle schools, public transportation locations and strip clubs.
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AGAIN, these two men (Davis Age 29 & Davis Age 48) may be TOTALLY UNRELATED. I am not trying claim a connection, just offering info from a cursory Google search. Please disregard as necessary. I apologize in advance if I offend anyone by posting the above information.
COMMENT #295 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/10/2005 @ 3:55 pm PT...
Damn, my whole comment got eaten (I forgot to put my name on and the back button didn't bring me back!)
Here goes a part of it, most importantly I wanted to talk about FINGERPRINTS:
1) We see 2 cups by the TV in the photos;
2) The 2 cups are not on the evidence lists;
3) What better place to find fingerprints:
4) There are no cups in the detailed drawing of the crime scene objects;
5) Floyd reports that (on the entire crime scene) she found only 1 latent print which wasn't enough of a print to identify;
6) What flea bag motel has cleaner's that are thorough enough to even clean prior guest prints off?
What else?
1) Oh yeah, good points G #287 - no toothbrush, no shaving kit, yet all the meds.
2) Also G #287, one report said they "Jimmied the lock" while Floyd said no sign of forced entry. Backs up the ease with which it could be done.
3) What if we disregard the wife's statement that she saw him at 5.15a on 6/30?
4) Could Lemme have stopped his own watch to leave the 1234 clue? If he can stop his watch, he can set it to any time he wants. Is the pen pointing to the watch? Is the pen telling time?
5) Where is the damn credit card? I guess it wouldn't look good if it were wiped clean and found on him.
6) If you are removing a tournequet from your left arm, you have to do it with your right. Barring switching hands after taking it off (to the lame arm), then the right arm would reach out to drop the belt and there would be no blood on the towel - which would be consistent with Floyd's report - but that we know isn't true. No wonder she messed with the photos. Cups too.
7) Why isn't the wash cloth in the evidence bag or even on the list - for hair, DNA etc.? Wouldn't a wash cloth be nice for DNA skin samples?
8) The coroner called it a suicide over the phone "based on" what Floyd told him. He later (I think) came out to the scene but it doesn't look like he investigated.
COMMENT #296 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/10/2005 @ 4:32 pm PT...
Apologies if I offend anyone who holds the following jobs, but if a gas station attendent, a janitor or a truck driver had been found in that tub, I might be quicker to conclude suicide.
But this was an investigator for the FDOT IG Office!
Just based on that fact alone the State of Florida should have been offered the opportunity to conduct its own crime scene investigation, shouldn't it? Was it?
Not that they wouldn't have tried to cover things up as well, but was the offer even ever made?
Also, as an aside, Luke 12:34 - "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."
Maybe a "righteous" hitman like Jules Winnfield (Samuel L. Jackson in 'Pulp Fiction')?
Or perhaps a reference to his "family"/unmentioned daughter?
COMMENT #297 [Permalink]
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robert perry
said on 3/10/2005 @ 5:17 pm PT...
#21 is just like most of the bushies...he don't really care what happened as long as it benifitted him and his kind
COMMENT #298 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 3/10/2005 @ 5:21 pm PT...
sorry to harp but how does blood run up hill?
re:#283
COMMENT #299 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 3/10/2005 @ 5:31 pm PT...
COMMENT #300 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 3/10/2005 @ 5:36 pm PT...
funeral guy left the scene before he even got there going by the police acess log
COMMENT #301 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/10/2005 @ 6:35 pm PT...
Curiouser is right. The Florida D.O.T. has lost a valued employee by death under unusual circumstances. They fail to request an autopsy, and rely entirely on the finding of the Valdosta P.D. that Ray Lemme committed suicide. They conduct no investigation of their own to determine why one of their employees either killed himself or was killed.
Yet when the Valdosta P.D. decides to reopen the investigation, suddenly the Florida D.O.T. becomes interested enough to ask that the investigation be terminated. That smells to high heaven, period.
COMMENT #302 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/10/2005 @ 6:36 pm PT...
If Lemme knew the case would be blowing in a couple of weeks and he already knew it went "straight to the top," why would he have to take a risk?
Kestrel #265, I think his daughter was about to be engaged rather than married, but I can't recall where I got that from. Still, your point remains the same.
MMIIXX #283, I think the cuts were on the inside left arm below the elbow. Does your theory still fit?
Bizkit #290 Well, I bet the thugs do have a "charge code" so they can get paid! Slash is as good as any!
Curiouser #296 Looks from the report that 2 separate FDOT employees came on 7/1 to take 1) his belongings and 2) his car. At least they were called. I have some suspicions with somebody having been "turned" at FDOT. That's where YEI would try to go first right? Find out what he knows already. Otherwise why worry?
COMMENT #303 [Permalink]
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Kryten42
said on 3/10/2005 @ 6:52 pm PT...
The police reports do not jibe. There are several inconsistencies in the various police reports. Also, the three detectives spent a total of 5 hours... That's a long time in a small motel room. Especially considering the shortness of the reports and the missing details. They had time to take samples from every square inch of the room, and to examine everything in detail, like the watch. Yet there is scant mention of most of the items found.
Also, why did FDOT not investigate? One of there senior investigators is dead. It's my experience in such cases (whether suicide or not), that an agency whose agent is found dead by any means performs their own full investigation. At the least, they should have requested an autopsy.
Forther to my previous comments to those looking at involvement in this by foreign nationals, As I said Japan is America's biggest threat! Here is an article in Reuters today:
Having slumped to multi-month lows against its major counterparts on Wednesday, the dollar suffered another blow on Thursday after Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi told parliament that, generally speaking, diversity in foreign exchange reserves was a good thing.
http://www.reuters.com/f...News&storyID=7869060
COMMENT #304 [Permalink]
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Kryten42
said on 3/10/2005 @ 6:57 pm PT...
Heh, sorry Robert, we are on the same wavelength... I didn't see you post while I was writing mine.
It is a very good question. FDOT have a lot to answer for I think.
COMMENT #305 [Permalink]
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Eyeball Kid
said on 3/10/2005 @ 7:09 pm PT...
On the Unrestricted Warfare site, there are two samples of Lemme's signature, one of which is his motel receipt. On neither signature does he show the deliberate pattern of strokes that are apparent in the suicide note. The handwriting on the note isn't a "natural" sampling.
COMMENT #306 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 3/10/2005 @ 7:19 pm PT...
Miss Persistent another strange thing is that the police report states that there was 2 "1 inch long" cut on the inside of the left elbow .Now I would think a suicider would be more inclined to use a slashing motion as apossed to actually slicing 2 similar length incisisions !
As to the blood pattern try it yourself (pretend only) its very hard to get any flow over the top of the inside of your elbow .Maybe if somebody was holding your arm and twisting it to hold it still while they cut ,you may then get blood run over the top .Try it with a cup of water.
COMMENT #307 [Permalink]
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G
said on 3/10/2005 @ 7:27 pm PT...
Mmiixx #292 ----
You make a good point about the significance of the watch time. If Ray "pulled the stem" out to signify something it could be a room such as "234" or 134, 123 and 124. You would think whoever did this would avoid checking into a motel room under "their name" or "credit card". However, if a watch can leak then someone may be dumb enough to check in above, below or beside Ray's room to commit murder. Stranger things have happened.
One more thing about the watch. Hold any object under water that has two holes in it. One at the top another in the bottom and watch the water quickly enter as air escapes. Again, a cut or twisted, loose watch case gasket and damaged stem seal on Ray's silver Bulova man's watch would create that type of effect under water. Something stopped that watch. Either Ray pulled the stem out to signify something or it contains water, lots of bloody water.
Miss Persistent #295 ----
You make some very good points. The police did jimmy "two" doors in about five minutes with the wrong tool. Probably an old crow bar or something else, which would really damage the aluminum door frame or door. Yet, the Detectives didn't see any obvious signs damage?
Also the police report indicated-
- The bed wasn't disturbed.
- The very first page of the Coroners Report is totally obliterated? Why? You can't read anything on the first page. It almost looks intentional. Maybe an equipment malfunction like the camera memory and pictures?
- Correct me if I'm wrong, but none of the police reports mentioned the obvious bruises (from photos) on the right side of his neck.
- The days of Ray's motel check in/out on the police report and actual receipts of June 29/30 are inconsistent with what motel employees said in their statements. The motel employees said Ray's check out time was supposed to be July 1 at 11:00am. The same day he was found dead in the room. The motel receipts clearly indicate the check out time should have been June 30th at 11:00am.
Long shot but worth mentioning---
So, unbeknownst to Ray, maybe someone made a phone call reserving a room for him after 6:00 on June 29th for a guaranteed late arrival that night. Maybe they had access to Rays credit card number (state furnished corporate card?) and guaranteed it to his (or maybe someone else's?) credit card. Either way Ray, or someone else, made the reservations and the motel posted them for the night of June 29th . Ray may have signed his credit receipt the morning of June 30th. The time frame of events allows for that to happen and place him back in the room well before 8:00am June 30th. However, someone else could have forged his name from the back of his credit card and talked to the desk clerk. Whoever signed the receipt, may have explained to the motel desk clerk about the "no show' for the night of June 29th and talked the clerk into giving them the night of the June 30th at no charge and thereby extending his departure to July 1 at 11:00am. This would explain the odd assortment of check in/out dates and times (receipts verses clerks statements). If this theory were correct then why wouldn't the motel clerk mention it to the police? Who actually made the reservation and on whose credit card?
I'd say the credit card numbers on that "ticket" and "motel receipt" could be different and either one might be important and easy to find?
It's a long shot…. but just like a leaky watch and bogus motel rooms … you never know what's going to lead you to the smoking gun!
COMMENT #308 [Permalink]
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G
said on 3/10/2005 @ 7:48 pm PT...
Robert Lockwood Mills #301
Kryten42 #303
Very good point about FDOT should have investigated Ray's death.
Ray was an important man. A FDOT Senior Investigator dies in another state under questionable circumstances and they don't touch it.
Something is very, very wrong.
COMMENT #309 [Permalink]
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Peggy
said on 3/10/2005 @ 8:24 pm PT...
PEOPLE were following Ray Lemme around. He leaves home before dawn, then phones his boss to say "I'll be late for work???" That's it? Not why, where he was going, when he'd be in for work?? These PEOPLE KNEW he had a meeting with the attorney. How??? He was kidnapped, taken to the motel, tortured into handing over all information, his family threatened, and he was murdered. We all know what and who he was investigating. These are the guilty parties who had PEOPLE follow him, kidnap him and murder him. Ray told Cliff he was about to break the case. Ray must have told his boss???? Ray may, OR MAY NOT, have told anyone else. If he did, who might he have told? Probably not too many people. His boss may have reported the info to others. Who did his boss talk to? Is his boss now scared because he knows Ray Lemme was murdered??
COMMENT #310 [Permalink]
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nunya
said on 3/10/2005 @ 9:02 pm PT...
The watch is not an older watch, the kind you have to manually wind. Can see that by the photo. Yet not all modern watches are battery powered. Citizen makes the solar powered Eco-drive, so that is photo-electric but essentially a form of battery power. Seiko makes a line of watches that use the kinetic motion of the wearer to power them. Not sure how long the Seikos run after you take them off, but I would think at least 12 hours. Something other than energy source being conumed or removed could have stopped any kind of watch. Kinetic watches have been around for some time. The battery just dying when lemme did... well, anything is possible, but highly improbable. Some one posted that his body was cremated. That's unfortunate. was
COMMENT #311 [Permalink]
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Peggy
said on 3/10/2005 @ 9:40 pm PT...
The "check out" part of the story does not make sense. Mr. Lemme would not check out and then commit suicide. There is no reason to check out if you are going to really "check out". It makes no sense.
However, a murderer trying to appear "normal" would check in, and then check out. Also, the "tidiness" of checking out, goes with the "tidiness" of laying out Mr. Lemme's belongings neatly on the table. I've heard of insane but "tidy" murderers before. Would using the bathtub also help contain the blood, as opposed to the bed, to ensure the murderers didn't step in blood dripping on the floor, or get blood on themselves.
I also don't believe that absolutely no one at FDOT knew what stage Mr. Lemme was at in his investigation. He only told Cliff??? Doubt it. When did his boss tell Mr. Lemme's wife that he had received a phone call from Ray? Ray phoned his boss at home at 6 am to say he would be late for work???? No explanation?? His boss said "Okay" and went to brush his teeth?
COMMENT #312 [Permalink]
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Peggy
said on 3/10/2005 @ 11:58 pm PT...
Mr. Lemme didn't have a cellphone??? FDOT didn't supply their investigators with cellphones?? He used a payphone to call his boss?? Did FDOT ask for the return of Mr. Lemme's black leather diary???
Where was Henry Lee at the time of Mr. Lemme's death?
Did Mr. Lemme have a co-investigator on this case by the name of Bowen? Mrs. Lemme says in her affidavit that her husband had a meeting to attend to AT WORK...implying at the office that day. The co-investigator and his boss Clift should not be let off the hook. They know A LOT!
COMMENT #313 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/11/2005 @ 2:10 am PT...
I'd like to repeat an earlier point. Lemme had told Clint Curtis he was about to break a big story. He told his wife he was working on a big case. These are established facts. The question has arisen in recent posts, "Wouldn't he have told others in the F.D.O.T. the same things?"
Probably. But the more salient fact is that Lemme could not have reached that point in his investigation without cooperation from certain people within the department. An inspector has to ask questions and examine files; he doesn't work in a vacuum. The deeper he got into the case, the more people he needed to help, and therefore the greater the chance someone would feel threatened.
The failure of the F.D.O.T. to conduct its own inquiry into Lemme's death, and especially the request of the Valdosta P.D. to close the second investigation begun in Dec. '04, is a smoking gun for me.
COMMENT #314 [Permalink]
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Happyday
said on 3/11/2005 @ 3:28 am PT...
1) The underlined words in the note spell, "My family, I love you". He gives the reason why he cooperated in writing the note _in_ the note.
2) Why no signature on the note? Because the hitmen didn't have a sample of his signature, and so couldn't verify it. There were taking a risk with him handwriting the note, but it was countered by the credence it would lend to the suicide bluff, and the fact they'd threatened his family.
4) The neatness thing is a key issue - as a USAF reservist he may have been a neat freak. If he wasn't, this looks like a military hit.
COMMENT #315 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/11/2005 @ 3:42 am PT...
Happyday - Interesting observations.
Question: If the hitmen didn't have a sample of his signature, who signed the receipt? My guess is that they not only had several copies of his signature but of his handwriting as well. FDOT would have had plenty to provide.
I presume this was a military/intelligence hit, hence the proximity to Moody AFB.
Lemme, as an active Air Force Reservist had probably been to Valdosta on several occassions, and thus would not have felt threatened by a request from a source to meet in that area, whether at Moody AFB, a fleabag motel or somewhere else.
What puzzles me is the appearance that his wife now goes along with the suicide theory. I understand being scared, but only to a point.
And why agree to have the body cremated? It's not as though his wounds would be visible at a funeral - with the exception of the neck bruise / black eye, which could still be covered with make up.
At least his brother seems to doubt the suicide theory, but, from what Brad has implied, won't go on the record about it.
I just wish that the Guckert thing wasn't sucking the wind out of this, which is just my opinion and not to disparage the ongoing Guckert investigation.
Can somebody who has a dailykos account PLEASE try to get some traction for this new information there TODAY?! Or has it happened and I missed it. (Why don't I have an account there? Because they don't usually discuss matters as important and damning as this. Maybe I'll have to start one... but wouldn't kos do a prominent entry on it if Brad contacted him?)
COMMENT #316 [Permalink]
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Mr.Murder
said on 3/11/2005 @ 3:45 am PT...
There are no pictures of the cieling. Arteries will spray blood. The only thing he would use a turniquet for was to raise blood vessels.
Not enough blood there. You can test the bathroom and find cieling traces that would be consistent with suicide- you won't find any someone stayed over him, bound one arm and did the deed. No struggle signs, it would appear he was drugged.
How many towels does that place have? Hotel security cams showing him arrive/leave?
Bush corruption inspires untimely coincidental deaths(again).
The Dems sure did start voting funny when this breaks...
COMMENT #317 [Permalink]
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Teresa
said on 3/11/2005 @ 4:17 am PT...
Dailykos is pretty much fluff. And they waste a lot of ink on misguided, unintelligent suppositions.
COMMENT #318 [Permalink]
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Snoopy
said on 3/11/2005 @ 4:59 am PT...
A suggestion...
How 'bout creating a timeline in summary form that emphasizes the documented events just before and just after (perhaps up to a week before and a week after) Mr. Lemme's tragic murder? Also, I think a brief summary of the known inconsistencies of the facts would be very helpful.
It appears that many people are not reading each post and are repeating things that were stated already. Having the two summaries I suggested would be helpful to anyone new to this blog who wants to quickly get "up to speed".
COMMENT #319 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/11/2005 @ 5:52 am PT...
After reading the reports, there is one problem with the murder theory I wanted to mention.
It is egress and ingress ... entry and exit points into and from the motel room.
The room had a lock that can in general only be locked and unlocked from the inside - except with a special tool.
These locks are composed of a "U" shaped metal piece that is attached to and goes from a metal base on the jamb. There is a short, curved metal piece attached to a metal piece on the door, which has a ball, globe, and marble like end on it. When locked the "U" shaped piece wraps around and interlocks with the curved piece of metal with the ball, globe or marble shaped end to it. If you have been to a motel or hotel you have seen these safety locking mechanisms.
These two interlock to prevent the door from being opened (except for a slight opening). It is a standard motel safety lock. It can only be partially opened from the outside. This is a standard motel set up.
When the first officers arrived there they used a master key to open the locks, only to find that the lock described above prevented entry. It was locked ... meaning it was set from the inside.
They got the special tool, designed just for such purposes, from the motel office and were able to disengage the lock and enter the room.
This means that if Lemme was murdered there had to be another source of entry or the murderers somehow set the lock from the outside. The latter is questionable. Otherwise Lemme was the only person who could have set the room lock from the inside.
Anyone care to discuss that? I am playing devil's advocate here, cause any good theory must explain all the details.
COMMENT #320 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/11/2005 @ 6:01 am PT...
At the risk of condescension, let me emphasize an obvious point. Ray Lemme was an INVESTIGATOR whose job was probing into WRONGDOING. There is ample evidence that he was about to expose ILLEGALITY BY PROMINENT PEOPLE.
Aside from all the forensic and timeline problems, and separating this from all politics, if an outside investigator had come in at the beginning and knew nothing more than the above, suicide would have been virtually eliminated as the cause of death.
It appears the Valdosta P.D. investigated the death (poorly, at that) without considering context or possible motives for murder. Did Shannon Floyd know what Lemme had been working on? Did she begin her investigation with a suicide mindset and seek confirmation of that, rather than considering motive, means, and opportunity...the basic criteria of a foul-play investigation?
Someone should ask Clint Curtis a key question, i.e., "Did you speak to Chief Childress while Lemme's death was being investigated, and did you make it clear to him that certain people might have had a strong motive for killing Lemme?"
This whole thing was treated so dismissively...no autopsy, a cremation, a finding of suicide, end of story. Nobody from the Florida D.O.T. bothers to ask for a broader investigation, nobody there starts his or her own inquiry, even though one of its own investigators dies suspiciously while on the job.
Finally, what about the D.O.T.'s insurance carrier? Ray Lemme was an EMPLOYEE. Presumably he had life insurance coverage. Did the company pay a death benefit for suicide? If so, did this conform to the master policy's terms and conditions? If not, did Mary Ann Lemme simply accept denial of benefits? Why hasn't the insurance company shown an interest in Lemme's death? They have their own investigators under contract, who are experienced in matters of suicide vs. murder; this is necessary, because most life insurance policies distinguish between suicide and other cause of death when determining eligibility for benefits.
COMMENT #321 [Permalink]
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Peggy
said on 3/11/2005 @ 6:21 am PT...
With all the information provided on this site and others on Tom Feeney, any honest, decent candidate who ran against Feeney in the next election would WIN; as George Tenet would say, "IT'S A SLAM DUNK". This step to find someone to run against Feeney MUST BE DONE. Brad, who should be contacted in Florida? I realize the voting machine problem must also be taken care of. But once Feeney's constituents are provided with ALL the information from the web, they will be picketing the streets to have him removed from office. Find a good, honest opposing candidate!!! The FACTS in all this material can be presented so that no slander or libel occurs. The FACTS will defeat Mr. Feeney.
COMMENT #322 [Permalink]
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Peggy
said on 3/11/2005 @ 6:37 am PT...
Dredd #320 - The murderers could have that particular "tool" you referred to which could "close" as well as "open" the lock from the outside???? I imagine the muderers have a lot of information and items provided to them from "on high". I remember from some web site, that Bush Senior employs former, even fake, "CIA" agents.
Robert #321 - The insurance investigation angle is a good one. Where are all the fearless (but extremely cautious) American patriots. (Have someone watch your back, and someone else watching his back, and someone else watching...etc. You need to backup your backups, and back them all up several times over).
COMMENT #323 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/11/2005 @ 6:50 am PT...
The inside safety "lock" I mentioned in #320 can be viewed in photo "DSCF0003.JPG".
I had to enlarge the photo (they were all on one scan) at this link.
Will try to do some research to find out more about the locks and provide a link.
COMMENT #324 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/11/2005 @ 6:58 am PT...
Peggy #323
I am looking for specifications on these things now. I checked one out a short time ago and so far there appears no way to close them from the outside. They can only be closed from the inside.
Thus, if there is not another door (which some hotel and motel rooms have) this must be explained.
COMMENT #325 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/11/2005 @ 7:28 am PT...
Did the room have windows that opened? If so, it follows that a first-floor room would have been chosen for the hit to enable the murderer(s) to escape that way without risking injury from a leap.
The burden of proof remains on the Valdosta P.D. to show suicide. If Ray Lemme wanted to kill himself, there is no reason why he'd drive all the way to Valdosta to do it, no reason for him to call his boss from the road en route, and no reason to tell his wife he loved her in a suicide note when he'd already told her that before leaving home.
COMMENT #326 [Permalink]
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Snoopy
said on 3/11/2005 @ 7:28 am PT...
I think I've discovered something significant that may not have been mentioned before:
There's been talk about Mr. Lemme having a cell phone. All indications are that he didn't. That why he made calls from a pay phone. However, Lemme DID have a Metrocall pager in his car in the same area where the Valdosta P.D. found his wallet. The last number on the pager was 850-960-6969 then the numbers 911 at the end.
This important fact was noted in Valdosta P.D. Detective Craig Spencer's report. There is no mention of the pager, wedding ring or wallet in any of the property/evidence logs and inventories. The only mention of the wallet and pager is in Spencer's report. The gold wedding band was noted in Floyd's report. Why is it that Floyd went to the trouble of inventorying two dimes (20 cents) and some of the contents of the car, but not the wallet, pager and ring?
Also noteworthy is that Detective Spencer was the one who went to the convenience store, asked if they sold the double-edge razor blades and viewed the store's surveillance videos. Detective Floyd's report makes no mention of any attempts made by her to obtain surveillance video from the hotel or any other location.
Lastly, the area code 850 is in the Florida panhandle, ranging just east of Tallahassee to Pensacola. According to a reverse-look-up site, this number is assigned to someone in Panama City and Powertel, Inc. is the registered carrier. Can anyone help get the name of the person who was assigned the number listed on the pager at the time of the crime?
COMMENT #327 [Permalink]
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Snoopy
said on 3/11/2005 @ 7:34 am PT...
I think I've discovered something significant that may not have been mentioned before:
There's been talk about Mr. Lemme having a cell phone. All indications are that he didn't. That why he made calls from a pay phone. However, Lemme DID have a Metrocall pager in his car in the same area where the Valdosta P.D. found his wallet. The last number on the pager was 850-960-6969 then the numbers 911 at the end.
This important fact was noted in Valdosta P.D. Detective Craig Spencer's report. There is no mention of the pager, wedding ring or wallet in any of the property/evidence logs and inventories. The only mention of the wallet and pager is in Spencer's report. The gold wedding band was noted in Floyd's report. Why is it that Floyd went to the trouble of inventorying two dimes (20 cents) and some of the contents of the car, but not the wallet, pager and ring?
Also noteworthy is that Detective Spencer was the one who went to the convenience store, asked if they sold the double-edge razor blades and viewed the store's surveillance videos. Detective Floyd's report makes no mention of any attempts made by her to obtain surveillance video from the hotel or any other location.
Lastly, the area code 850 is in the Florida panhandle, ranging just east of Tallahassee to Pensacola. According to a reverse-look-up site, this number is assigned to someone in Panama City and Powertel, Inc. is the registered carrier. Can anyone help get the name of the person who was assigned the number listed on the pager at the time of the crime?
COMMENT #328 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/11/2005 @ 7:55 am PT...
RE: #320, #324, #325
This link has info on these "night latches". They are also called "door guards".
COMMENT #329 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/11/2005 @ 7:56 am PT...
I think Lemme couldn't have planned to spend the night nor did he (Mr. Clean) spend the night because he didn't have a toothbrush or toothbrush or shaving cream.
Therefore, when they "explained" to Lemme the night before that he would have to leave early because he checked in early it was either over the phone or done by someone else.
It's possilbe that the motel might have a different definition of "check-in" than we are thinking. Check-in to them might just be the time you have agreed to take the room - regardless of when you get there or when you leave or whether you phone it in or do it in person.
Agree, the motel surely has an easy way to get in even if the latch is done. If it's a fleabag motel they are certainly accustomed to having to do this on a regular basis. But, Floyd makes a BIG deal of how hard it was. Floyd's cohort makes a BIG deal also and even adds that on to the end of his report.
I think the missing cups are a huge smoking gun. They are clearly not in the police sketch and not listed in evidence. Yet they are the best place for fingerprints. It's one thing if prints were not checked and quite another if the cups go missing. Plus, one officer followed up at a convenience store checking to see if that store carried a certain type of razor. The owner of the store said no. BUT, the investigator went ahead and reviewed the store video anyway? Why. Why do that? Why sit through maybe 24 hours of video for nothing? Perhaps because SOMEOME bought the coffee there. Did the missing cup match the cups in that store? Did the coffee cup come from Valdosta or Tallahasee?
Also, Floyd said the floor towel was clean and so it wasn't brought into evidence either. DAMN her for doing this on purpose. She was also able to get the cup "suicided" and almost the photos as well.
You're right Snoopy, we need a spreadsheet with timeline in the first column and then people and their reported activities in the next columns. Each persons activity for that time would have to be backed up by some sort of evidence. That way all the inconsistencies would be less disruptive and patterns may emerge.
Robert, FDOT's inactivity is definitely a huge smoking gun. Unless Floyd convinced them they were 100% sure he committed suicide - no doubt about it. They appeared able to convince the coroner of that as well. Nonetheless, if I were an FDOT employee who knew he had a big case that was about to blow - I'd have done exactly what I am doing right now - questioning the suicide theory.
MMIIXX, I'll have to get in the tub over the weekend and check all this out. We know he didn't do it, or was forced to do it (more likely).
Snoopy, I jotted down that number yesterday and was trying to see if it spelled anything. Worth pursuing. So the pager was "suicided" along with the cup, the bathroom towel, cloth, credit card...
COMMENT #330 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/11/2005 @ 8:07 am PT...
Hey people, when a door is locked from the inside and the only way in is to do a specialty opening of the door as a result, if you can not show there is more than one way in, end of case.
Stop, take a breather, deal with the egress and ingress issue. It is paramount.
If that cannot be resolved it was a suicide.
COMMENT #331 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/11/2005 @ 8:13 am PT...
Hey people, when a door is locked from the inside and the only way in is to do a specialty opening of the door as a result, if you can not show there is more than one way in, end of case.
Stop, take a breather, deal with the egress and ingress issue. It is paramount.
If that cannot be resolved it was a suicide.
COMMENT #332 [Permalink]
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Snoopy
said on 3/11/2005 @ 8:26 am PT...
Hi Miss Persistent and to everyone else here making a positive contribution,
I had an odd occurence while trying to post #327- only that page on Brad's Blog timed out. I went to other pages on the site and they worked just fine. It took 15 minutes for things to return to normal. Sorry about the double-posting, but it happened because of the timeout problem I encountered.
There is something I wanted to add-
Panama City is about 120 miles to WSW of Tallahassee. Valdosta is about 80 miles to the ENE. I find it interesting that the Malibu's mileage wasn't noted in any crime scene report. Betcha that Mr. Lemme did have mileage records of some sort. Learning the mileage driven in the days before his death could yield further clues.
COMMENT #333 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/11/2005 @ 9:31 am PT...
Snoopy, I had the same problem a little while ago, luckily I saved my post in Word and reposted a bit later.
Dredd, and the lock guys, the inconsistency is (again) with the police reports. It's clear it's easy to unlatch it from the outside and probably as easy to latch it from the outside. The motel people have to have that ability. Some of the reports note with ease that they went to get the special tool. Other reports (Floyd and cohort) say the lock had to be jimmied.
They showed there was more than one way in by being able to get in themselves.
The window may be egress option. But, there is no report of having checked any window, or curtains closed or open. As a former student of architecture, the police sketch does not indicate (in formal mechanical drawing or architectural drawing terms) that there was a window. Anybody live near who can go look?
Was the convenience store video saved or returned to the store?
Snoopy, we would have had to know where the mileage started in order to make sense of where it ended. Wouldn't we? Or do you have something else in mind? If I were there I would have felt the hood. Still, the reports say rigor mortis. I'm going to go look into the chemistry of that.
COMMENT #334 [Permalink]
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czaragorn
said on 3/11/2005 @ 9:32 am PT...
Hi Dredd,
I've had experience with such locks, but have never been so pissed at a hotel upon checking out as to try to set one from outside, but it sure looks like it could be done with a piece of string, or, say, a shoelace. Run yourself through it and tell me what you think. Of course you can't use string to get in, but getting out???
COMMENT #335 [Permalink]
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czaragorn
said on 3/11/2005 @ 9:38 am PT...
Dear Miss Persistent - Have you ever seen a hotel room without a window? I've stayed in some real fleabags, but as I recall every one had at least one window...
COMMENT #336 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/11/2005 @ 9:44 am PT...
Dredd, I think the question is, "Is there a second way OUT?" If the murderers bolted the lock from the inside after killing Lemme and got out through a window, that would explain everything. It would also suggest Ray Lemme hadn't reserved the room himself, and that whoever did make the reservation asked for a first-floor room to make escape through the window easier.
The room certainly had a window. If it opened, there's no issue, as far as I'm concerned. If there was a second door, no issue. Only if the window was sealed does it explain why Shannon Floyd decided it was a suicide on the basis of "There was no way for a murderer to get out."
Even then, I'd be suspicious, Dredd. If the room had been reserved AND FIRST OCCUPIED on 6/29 by someone posing as Lemme, which seems more likely than that the motel's date machine was a day off, then that person and any confederates would have had 36 hours to jimmy the sealed window open and leave it in a position where it looked sealed but could be used for escape. With that much time to prepare, I suspect an experienced hired killer could arrange things in such a way that a detective might be fooled.
At least it's a possibility worth considering, in case there was no second door and no window that opened. If we settle on suicide, then why in the world would the Florida D.O.T. go out of its way to stifle the reopening of the case in December, 2004?
If it's an open-and-shut case, as you suggest would be indicated by the bolted door being the only way in or out, then nobody at the Florida D.O.T. would have had a thing to worry about.
Obviously, somebody there is very worried. And the higher up the food chain this goes, the more likely it is that the murder was carried out by people who planned things very carefully in order to show suicide.
Final point...if the door wasn't bolted by murderers after they killed Lemme, then it only could have been bolted by Lemme himself. Why would he do that, if he were planning to commit suicide? What does a dead person gain by making it difficult for people to find his body?
COMMENT #337 [Permalink]
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Snoopy
said on 3/11/2005 @ 9:52 am PT...
Regarding #334, the direction I was going in reference to mileage was that perhaps travel notes were made in the same notebook where the "suicide" note was written. Either that, or other mileage notations may have been entered on the receipts or business cards he had at the crime scene. I'm sure many of Mr. Lemme's prior travels were work-related and he probably had a habit of tracking mileage frequently. Back at the FDOT office, there must be records of his business travels and mileage involved. You can be certain that if he used State vehicles at work there will be detailed records of his FDOT travels.
Correlating any mileage log entries to the actual odometer might be useful for determining the routes (or detours) he took just before his demise. If there was an unusually high number of miles during the time just before his death, then there may be more to the story. The Panama City telephone number on the pager makes me wonder if he went directly to the Knight's Inn after leaving his house.
COMMENT #338 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/11/2005 @ 10:01 am PT...
One more point regarding the motel room and possible alternate egress. This was Georgia in the summer...hot and humid. Even a fleabag motel would have air conditiong; they couldn't get anyone to stay there without it.
The likelihood is that the cooling unit was in the window. It should be easy to confirm immediately. If the window were otherwise sealed (and if it opened easily I don't see any issue here at all), that would present another possible route out.
COMMENT #339 [Permalink]
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Peggy
said on 3/11/2005 @ 10:04 am PT...
Who are the suspects or other contacts in this case who may be located in Panama City? Or business associates of Yang or Feeney or Henry Lee? What is the connection with Panama City? What day and time did he call Panama City? The 911 would indicate he was being kidnapped/attacked.
COMMENT #340 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/11/2005 @ 10:08 am PT...
Hey all. Speculation is like fire. Once started it never stops until all is consumed.
If you read my posts before I carefully read the reports, and what they do and do not say, I posted speculation too.
See #22 and #142 for example, where I speculated that Lemme had been drowned in the bathwater. Someone pointed out that there was no bathwater. I could have said "well it must have drained out then". I didn't ... I submitted to the evidence of record.
I have enough experience to know that if you become attached to a premise and fabricate "facts" as a result, ignoring known facts, there is no end to the fantasy that will result.
So, I slowed down, read everything carefully, to find out what had been said and what had not been said.
The cops blew it by not mentioning the "nite latch" or "door guard" and whether or not they checked for egress in the form of a window or another door.
I do not know if there is a window or another door because the reports have not shown any nor mentioned any.
But I do know that if there is only one way in and out and it was secured from the inside it was suicide.
I did some testing on the "nite latch" and "door guard" and there is NO WAY on the one I tested, which is like the one pictured in #329, to close it from the outside. Not the way it happened.
So that leaves the window and/or another door possibilities. Sometimes there are doors that join a couple of rooms so larger groups (lots kids for example) can use them as one facility.
But please folks lets not become rabid with a story of our own fabrication. Lets be really accurate bloggers and let the real and known facts dictate the story.
Even if Lemme committed suicide that does not disprove any of the other factors in the overall story. The spy factor is a known fact, overcharging is a known fact, and the Curtis affidavit is a known piece of evidence.
Even if Lemme committed suicide there could be nefarious reasons ... he could have been so scared, distraught from discovering those he had faith in were crooks, been threatened - including family, etc. etc.
But all those things must also rest upon facts of evidence rather than facts of fabrication.
COMMENT #341 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/11/2005 @ 10:14 am PT...
Following is a quote from the police report: http://insider-magazine.com/stories/14.jpg"Small areas of blood appearing to be arterial spurts were present on the exterior side of the bathroom door, which was pushed back to the east wall, and on the east wall adjacent the bathtub. The location of the arterial spurts was consistent with the deceased being in a sitting position when the cuts were made."Now, look at the police sketch: http://insider-magazine.com/stories/17.jpgHow could the blood have splattered on to the EXTERIOR side of the bathroom door if Lemme cut his LEFT INSIDE arm from the "sitting" position he was found in the tub? The only way the blood could have gotten there is if Lemme was standing up and facing the door!
My points: How does the investigator reach such an unlogical conclusion based on the evidence? How does the investigator notice the blood on the bathroom door, but NOT the towel on the floor? What is going on here? This questions the credibility of the investigators. Are the police covering up their own mistakes now?
Time to call Internal Affairs.
COMMENT #342 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/11/2005 @ 10:22 am PT...
If Ray Lemme drove 120 miles to Panama City on the day before he died (regardless of the reason), then turned around and drove 200 miles in the opposite direction on the same day to Valdosta, Georgia (for no evident reason), then for the Florida D.O.T. to not be curious about what was going on in his life at that time is doubly suspicious. If he so much as called Panama City and drove to Valdosta on the same day, it's something to wonder about
Folks, suppose your brother or husband was a detective with the Tallahassee P.D. He told you he'd been working on a "big case" that he was close to cracking. Then he's found dead, an apparent suicide, at a place he had no evident reason for being at just then. Further suppose that the Tallahasse Police Chief accepts the finding of the other department without questioning it, and still further suppose that after the other chief reopens the case, somebody in the Tallahassee P.D. requests that it be closed again.
How would you feel toward the Chief of Police in Tallahassee? Well, that's how Mary Ann Lemme and her daughter should feel toward her husband's bosses at the Florida D.O.T. If they aren't livid about this, it can only mean they're terrified for their own lives...which means there was no suicide.
COMMENT #343 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/11/2005 @ 10:26 am PT...
Excellent point Robert #337 - why would he bother to lock himself in. The only reason to do that would be to give the "immediate impression" that it was done by himself. More than Lemme could have wanted to make that impression.
And #339, June in Georgia. Good point. The reports said the light was on but the AC was off.
In the drawing, the AC unit does show up on that outside wall, farthest side away from door.
Snoopy #338. Could he have been being paged by his wife from work? She said in her affidavit she was trying to reach him all day. 911 is used to say call right away, call now, it's extremely important.
Dredd #341, IMHO, the real proof would be to use the actual managers special tool and see if it could be locked from the outside. That doesn't mean we shouldn't pursue the window egress issue, and it doesn't mean you have to believe it was suicide.
Group think is not what we want to do right now when we are brainstorming. Brainstorming doesn't mean every idea has to be good or to pan out. But it does sometimes help another person think of something new. At least it has for me. As Snoopy was saying earlier, it would be good to have a spreadsheet.
COMMENT #344 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/11/2005 @ 11:00 am PT...
#341 Dredd,
Although I think it's commendable that you tested the idea of locking one of those latches from the outside and it didn't work, it's far from scientific.
You must have these things in order to test the theory:
1) An identical hotel room door
2) An identical latch system installed exactly the way they were on room #132
3) An identical special "tool" that the police used to open it from the outside
4) The knowledge and skill required to perform such a maneuver
Short of those, one can not rule out closing the latch from the outside, thus one can not rule out foul play.
Furthermore, I see no logical reason why, if it is possible to "open" the latch from the outside, why it would be impossible to "close" the latch from the outside. It is a very simple mechanical device and there is no evidence suggesting you should not be able to "reverse" the process of opening the latch.
So far, the evidence suggests that the "closing the latch from outside" theory is a strong possibility and thus far has not been ruled out.
COMMENT #345 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/11/2005 @ 11:01 am PT...
I agree completely. The reason we're doing this is because the people who SHOULD be doing it ARE NOT DOING THEIR JOBS.
When people act in a manner 180 degrees opposite from what might be expected of them, that alone is grounds for suspicion. Aside from the Lemme family, the people we'd think would be most concerned about Ray Lemme's actual fate would be his "friends" at the Florida D.O.T. He was their colleague, and engaged in investigative work in behalf of the agency.
But these folks are the ones most willing to accept the finding of suicide. Indeed, they have made an overt effort to prevent a contrary finding. Dredd, we should have to do this...but nobody else will. So if the speculation seems to get a bit far afield, put it down to detectives chasing every possible lead until they find the right connection (which they do).
COMMENT #346 [Permalink]
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Snoopy
said on 3/11/2005 @ 11:04 am PT...
Regarding Miss Persistent #334 and Mary Ann Lemme calling her husband from work, here's what I found from a December 6, 2004 article by Wayne Madsen,
Online Journal Contributing Writer, about the location of her employment:
-------------------------------
Mary Ann, worked as a secretary for Martha Walters Barnett, a partner with the politically-connected Holland & Knight law firm in Tallahassee, where she specializes in campaign finance and election law and government contracts.
Another Holland & Knight partner, Ginny Myrick, was appointed by Jeb Bush as the vice chair of the Florida Community Trust, a state land acquisition and grant program. Although officially a bipartisan law firm, even Democrats working for Holland & Knight largely support Jeb Bush.
-----------------------------
So, it couldn't have been her paging unless the number is assigned to a cell phone which she owned or borrowed. Too bad we don't know the date and time of the page. Most pager companies usually keep records of each page received for a certain amount of time for billing purposes.
As I said before, I wish we could find the name of the person to whom the originating number was registered to at the time. Did the Lemme's have friends or family near the Gulf Coast who may have been trying to help find him?
COMMENT #347 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/11/2005 @ 11:04 am PT...
I looked at the drawing again and the way the sketcher drew the AC unit, one side of the AC line goes through the wall. That may indicate there was a window.
On livor mortis, I found that livor mortis is a maroon discoloration (bruise like appearance of the skin) indicating pooling of the blood at the lowest point - that is, his back would be discolored if his back was on the down side. Maybe that's what is on the neck. "If a body is found lying on its back with lividity apparent on the front side, this tells investigators the body has been moved since death."
http://adipocere.homestead.com/chemistry.html
http://www.mtmc.edu/acad...ision/forensic/paper.doc
For rigor mortis, there are stages (this is for temperate conditions):
Body warm, not stiff: Not dead more than 3 hours;
Body warm, stiff: Dead between 3 and 8 hours;
Body cold, stiff: Dead between 8 and 36 hours;
Body cold, not stiff: (Rigor mortis reverses itself) Dead more than 36 hours;
http://www.sciencenet.or...tures/soc/forensics.html
COMMENT #348 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/11/2005 @ 11:20 am PT...
#348 Miss Persistent
Good research. Since their are numerous police reports stating that when they touched the body it was "Stiff and cold", we can state that he had to be dead for AT LEAST 8 hours.
His body was found no later than 1:36pm. 8 hours prior to that time would be 5:36am.
But he clearly checked out at 6:54am. If he ran back to the room and quickly killed himself, let's say he dies at 7:10am. 8 hours after that would be 3:10pm. The other problem with that is his suicide note is noted at 8:10. Now, even though it's possible he wrote the note the previous evening, why would he "sleep on it?".
This also suggests questions the authenticity of the time on the note.
Just more inconsistancies suggest foul play.
COMMENT #349 [Permalink]
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KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/11/2005 @ 11:38 am PT...
Hey y'all, there is a window in one of the photographs, the one with two chairs and a lamp. Facing the door from the inside, the door is on the left and the air unit is on the right.
Also, regarding the pager number and Panama City - if they route pagers like they do cell phones, it's possible whomever called him was just routed through Panama City - and it's possible it was his wife calling.
I just got my first cell phone (I hate phones) and it took me awhile to figure out why I was getting calls from Mobile, Alabama - turns out it was from calls being made from Huntsville and routed through Mobile - which is clear at the OTHER end of the state!
The 911 at the end is unusual - ALTHOUGH, before jumping to conclusions, I'd check to see if the number was from when his wife called him. She said she paged him several times but couldn't reach him, and was worried. She may tacked "911" on to the end of the number she put into the "call-back" message to let him know it was VERY IMPORTANT to call home. (It's a common code to indicate emergencies vs. call me when you can kinda messages)
COMMENT #350 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/11/2005 @ 11:58 am PT...
Czaragorn #335
The reason the nite latch can not be locked from the outside is that the direction it must be pulled is opposite to the swing direction of pivot on the pinions/hinges.
To activate the mechanism the "U" shaped member must be swung to the fully open position, which swings it away from the door itself.
Then the other portion of the mechanism attached to the door is engaged into the "U" member by closing the door.
Only when the door is thereafter closed properly can you pull the "U" shaped member back the other way, locking the two together.
When one pulls on it with a string from the outside of the room that causes pressure toward the puller, which is the opposite direction it must go to swing closed and around the latch member.
The tip must swing away from the puller in an arc and would only go toward the puller in the last inch or so.
The string would have a zig zag shape and would have to be tied to the "U" shaped member before the door was pulled shut. Then the string would be pulled on. That could not cause the "U" member to travel away from the puller, but instead pulling on it would cause it to travel toward the puller.
Also, the string would still be attached and I did not see any string mentioned nor visible in the photos. Plus it would look suspicious to anyone observing this activity and would not be an efficient technique for professional hit men to use.
I tried this with string cause that is the only way it could possibly be locked from the outside because the door must be closed for the two members of the mechanism to go into place.
Only a string is thin enough to fit into and meander around the little Z-shaped crack between the door and the jamb when the door is closed.
The two members of the mechanism must be in place and the door closed to activate the locking mechanism by pulling the "U" shaped member back toward the door over the other fixed member.
Remember that this mechanism is designed to be locked from the inside with the door closed, obviously, and not from the outside.
Once engaged, however, the door can be pulled or pushed toward the inside for an inch or so until a space or gap appears ... then it locks at some point and the door will go no further.
Unlocking it from the outside can be done but it is not easy, even with the special tool.
COMMENT #351 [Permalink]
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czaragorn
said on 3/11/2005 @ 12:09 pm PT...
Thanks for the thoughtful response, Dredd. Not having a specimen on hand, and having to go by my sometimes razor-sharp, sometimes sputtery memory, it seemed plausible. I wonder, though... A length of dental floss (waxed, sorry Mr. Zappa) could be looped around it, rather than tied, and pulled out without a trace (OK, better make it unwaxed) once the deed was done...
COMMENT #352 [Permalink]
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KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/11/2005 @ 12:12 pm PT...
Also, and apologies if this has been discussed already, BUT..
regarding water in the bathtub..
Whether there was water in the tub or not during discovery should have been noted in the report - anybody run across that?
Also, his t-shirt appears to be wet up almost to his arm-pit, and that doesn't look like dried blood. In old one-piece bathtub/shower units (like the one in the hotel), it's not unusual for the tub to leak water out slowly around the drain, even when it's closed (Until recently I had the same kind of unit in my house, with that very problem).
Whether water was in the tub or not might be irrelevant, unless it shows up inside the watch as has been suggested.
I still don't get why his wife didn't push for investigation - I certainly would have, under the circumstances.
The following is PURELY THEORETICAL - NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT IT WHATSOEVER!!
Given all that was happening regarding the work he'd told her about, etc, the only way a wife with a husband in a prominent position would accept a verdict of suicide is either fear, OR (here's the speculation part, and I emphasize, there is NOTHING to back this up, it's a theoretical situation) IF she felt that there was embarrassing information about to come out about her husband that might have pushed him to commit suicide, and she accepted that as a cause of death rather than push for investigation that she thought might have uncovered that same information (I'm thinking in terms of blackmail here) I'll say it once more, there is thus far NO EVIDENCE for that - just another theory as to the "why" she didn't call for investigation.
COMMENT #353 [Permalink]
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czaragorn
said on 3/11/2005 @ 12:14 pm PT...
And, Dredd - I remember reading about Houdini having himself locked in a super-secure safe one time and astouding everyone by freeing himself. He commented that safes are made to keep people out, not in, and that is was a simple matter to get out. Perhaps the inverse, converse, whatever of this principle could apply here. It does seem to me that almost any security device ever devised can be foiled, given human ingenuity.
COMMENT #354 [Permalink]
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Snoopy
said on 3/11/2005 @ 12:20 pm PT...
Hi KestrelBrightEyes, regarding #350,
I think I need to clarify which phone number that was mentioned by the Valdosta P.D. Regardless of where the page is routed, the phone number displayed as the last page received was from a Panama Beach number. The number listed in the police report was sent by the person doing the page. Bear in mind that pagers do not work like Caller ID- you have to select the callback number that you want the receiver to see. The report did not indicate the actual phone number of the pager itself (another oversight).
Also note that Panama Beach is over 100 miles from Tallahassee. It is unlikely that the Lemme's, nor her employer, would secure a phone (landline or cell) with a long distance telephone number. That's not very practical, nor logical. No, that page probably came from someone other than Mrs. Lemme, but who? The police should have investigated this detail further.
COMMENT #355 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/11/2005 @ 12:24 pm PT...
KestrelBrighteyes #350 I did not see any photos with windows, nor does the "Sketch" show a window. Windows are usually drawn like doors, in that, the wall is shown as severed like where it shows the door.
Which photo shows the window (they are each named). Are you talking about DSCF0003.JPG?
That could be a window because there is a curtain there behind the chairs. But there is also a lamp covering the window which is strange. And it doesn't show from the outside shot of the door.
However, that would be the perfect place to set the nite latch from. Just reach around and lock it, then pull the window closed.
This assumes an opening window and that it was open. The cops make no mention of a window either unlatched or latched.
developing ...
COMMENT #356 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/11/2005 @ 12:27 pm PT...
There's a window, and an air-conditioning unit. If the window opens, the hit men could have exited through it. They would have requested a first-floor room. The room was in Lemme's name, so it means one of the hit men would have been impersonating Lemme since 6/29. That explains the timeline/date discrepancy.
Saying, "I'd like a room on the first floor" wouldn't have aroused suspicion, because some people have problems climbing stairs, and this place sounds as if it didn't have an elevator. If there were none available at ground level, they'd have found another place for the hit.
Even if the window were sealed, the air conditioner could have been removed to allow escape through that aperture, then pulled back into position in its wall cavity from the outside.
Either way, it would work as long as neither killer was extraordinarily large.
If Ray Lemme had been dead for at least 8 hours when his body was found, that strongly suggests he was killed in the middle of the night. That fits, because people climbing through an open window or other wall cavity during daylight hours would risk being seen.
COMMENT #357 [Permalink]
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anon
said on 3/11/2005 @ 12:30 pm PT...
While the link to the Valdosta Tech page included in comments above still exists, all info about Shannon Floyd is gone. Google's cached version has the same page but includes her info. Guess maybe the college didn't like all the hits this page was suddenly receiving! Interesting.
COMMENT #358 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/11/2005 @ 12:50 pm PT...
Mr. Lemme didn't have a cellphone???
I don't know the area, but there are rural areas where you can't get a signal. Still, a very good point.
Is anyone here a dailykos member? Please post a summary of this info there if you are.
This is especially timely given the recently discovered corruption links between Feeney/DeLay
COMMENT #359 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/11/2005 @ 12:50 pm PT...
O.K., Krestel. Let me take your speculation a bit further. The following possible scenarios might fit with a suicide, and with Mary Ann Lemme's odd willingness to accept the Valdosta P.D.'s decision.
1) Lemme was a pervert. Mary Ann knew it. When Lemme got close to the truth at the D.O.T., the people threatened by his investigation blackmailed him into silence by telling him they were about to spill the beans on his secret life with little boys. He killed himself in remorse.
2) Lemme had a gambling addiction. The mob was after him to pay up or else. He went to Valdosta to pay what he could. They weren't satisfied, and either rubbed him out or threatened his family, which caused him to go to pieces.
Either scenario might also explain why the D.O.T. wanted the investigation stifled, but only if Mary Ann Lemme had called one of his bosses and asked the D.O.T. to intercede, maybe to keep it out of the papers and prevent the daughter from finding out.
The problem here, Krestel, is that Ray Lemme's bona fides don't fit a pervert or compulsive gambler. Solid family man, Vietnam veteran, Air Force reservist, conscientious to a fault, and trusted with difficult work by a state agency.
COMMENT #360 [Permalink]
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G
said on 3/11/2005 @ 12:52 pm PT...
Dredd #320 - The door and latch can be locked from the outside and opened from the outside in seconds with the right tools in experienced hands of a big and/or strong individual. I've spent hundreds of nights in those very same motel rooms and the only way to stop someone who wants to get in is with a chair jammed, wedged at an angle under that door handle.
You can enter or exit any old Holiday Inn styled motel built in the late 60's or 70's without a key. They all have (as the police pictures note) soft aluminum door frames that give under leverage from a flat Stanley or Sears $8.00 pry bar or long crow bar placed between the door and the aluminum frame. The ball latch you pictured and the one hanging from the steel door in the police pictures are the same. To align upon leaving the room you pull the door closed up to the aluminum frame and through the crack with a small diameter wire. You hook the swing latch pulling it back towards the door and unhook the wire. Then whoever opens that door after you leave will actually activate the locking of the U shaped swing latch with the ball. It's a piece of cake to do.
Also, those rooms have one entrance/exit and that’s the front door. The windows are permanently sealed and do not open. They were just tempered glass sealed in aluminum frames with a ground level mounted air conditioner.
FYI- my earlier posts said-
The motel Ray supposably stayed was an old ground floor outside entrance Holiday Inn style motel built in late 60's or early 70's. Those were built with "aluminum door frames". I can't tell you how many of those I've stayed in that the doors were jimmied from the outside. Just look at the middle of the aluminum door frames for pry marks. Crooks take a small flat pry bar jam it in the springy soft aluminum door frame leaning on the pry bar and pop the door open … they grab the wallets off the counter and run back out the door. In one night crooks could brake into two or three rooms in a row. The only way to stop them is to jam a chair at an angle under the door handle.
Anyway, the point of the above story is simply this; you can open and leave that particular type door/frame with a pry bar. You "lock the door dead bolt" close it up to the aluminum doorframe, hook the ball latch and pull it closed, spring the door with the pry bar and slide the dead bolt jam around the frame into the hole, bingo it's shut and now locked from the inside. It would take 3 or 4 seconds at the most. Also, sheriff report indicated door was locked a dead bolt from inside. That's an old ground floor outside
Dredd Your previous post said-
COMMENT #320 [link]
...Dredd said on 3/11/2005 @ 5:52am PT...
After reading the reports, there is one problem with the murder theory I wanted to mention.
It is egress and ingress ... entry and exit points into and from the motel room.
The room had a lock that can in general only be locked and unlocked from the inside - except with a special tool.
These locks are composed of a "U" shaped metal piece that is attached to and goes from a metal base on the jamb. There is a short, curved metal piece attached to a metal piece on the door, which has a ball, globe, and marble like end on it. When locked the "U" shaped piece wraps around and interlocks with the curved piece of metal with the ball, globe or marble shaped end to it. If you have been to a motel or hotel you have seen these safety locking mechanisms.
These two interlock to prevent the door from being opened (except for a slight opening). It is a standard motel safety lock. It can only be partially opened from the outside. This is a standard motel set up.
When the first officers arrived there they used a master key to open the locks, only to find that the lock described above prevented entry. It was locked ... meaning it was set from the inside.
They got the special tool, designed just for such purposes, from the motel office and were able to disengage the lock and enter the room.
This means that if Lemme was murdered there had to be another source of entry or the murderers somehow set the lock from the outside. The latter is questionable. Otherwise Lemme was the only person who could have set the room lock from the inside.
Anyone care to discuss that? I am playing devil's advocate here, cause any good theory must explain all the details.
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COMMENT #361 [Permalink]
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casolaro
said on 3/11/2005 @ 12:53 pm PT...
The room is on the ground floor. Did they check to make sure the window was latched?
COMMENT #362 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/11/2005 @ 12:53 pm PT...
#358 Cool.
Can someone re-post the link that shows all the photos? I don't seem to have the same link. My link only shows pictures 1,2,4,5,7,8!
If you can see picture DSCF0007 - can you tell if the tip of the pen is pointing exactly at some writing on a piece of paper that is under the suicide page - can those words be discerned at all?
COMMENT #363 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/11/2005 @ 12:55 pm PT...
Robert Lockwood Mills #357 You stated "Even if the window were sealed, the air conditioner could have been removed to allow escape through that aperture, then pulled back into position in its wall cavity from the outside."
I think you should cite to some authority or testimony or how-to by professional hit men as to techniques used by such professionals.
To tear out an airconditioning unit, crawl thru, then pull it back in place without that being obvious by debris and damage is unlikely. And foolhearty at nite. It makes noise and arouses suspicion.
Professionals are smoothe as silk, not clumsy as drunken cows.
Also what is the evidence for a window? At this point only the fact that curtains show up in photo DSCF0003.JPG justify that assertion.
But it is not conclusive yet. Why a lamp in front of a window, and why the chairs in front of a window, and why no mention of a window in the reports or sketches? And why take out an airconditioning unit if there is a window right next to the door?
There is a lot of testimony about how the cops got in and if it was as easy as pushing the window open and reaching in and undoing the nite latch, wouldn't hey have done that? Here is what was said:
"Prior to [entry] Gartman and I had to Jimmy the door open. The doors upper lock was locked. Gartman had to try to open Room 131 First to see if we could get in. After Gartman practiced on Room 131, she tried to jimmy Room 132 open. After a few trys, Gartman was able to jimmy open the upper lock." (officer A. Marlow, suplemental report #1, pages 1-2)
"The swing latch can be seen from the outside as being locked from the inside ... I opened the door with an emergency key." (supplemental report #2, page 1 of 1).
"Villait escorted the officers to the room and they found that the upper swing latch was locked ... Officer Gartman used a special tool to open the lock provided by the motel." (Detective Spencer, Valdosta Police Detective Report).
"Villait stated that the maid told her that the room was undisturbed but the door was latched from the inside." (Detective Lynly L. Penn, Supplemental Detective Report, 7/28/03).
"A member of the hotel staff was unable to enter the room due to the door being locked so an officer was called to respond. Ptl. Gartman arrived, unlocked the security latch on the interior side of the door ..." (Dective Shannon Floyd, Valdosta Police Department, Crime Scene unit, Processing Report, 7/24/03).
Nothing conclusive about windows yet ...
COMMENT #364 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/11/2005 @ 1:05 pm PT...
RLM - At many fleabag hotels whose doors all face outside, the second floor has an outside 'balcony' that runs the length of the hotel. Therefore there would be no need to specially ask for a first floor room, because exiting via the window would land you right on the balcony.
As for closing a U-shaped latch, why would it be impossible to wrap the string/floss around the end of the U a few times, then wrap the string/floss AROUND the bolt with the round tip?
Wouldn't that cause the U-shaped latch to be pulled in the right direction? Then just keep pulling, hoping that the string/floss doesn't break/get caught in the door frame.
Am I making sense? Wrap the string around the end of the U-latch a few times, then wrap it once around the bolt with the round tip, then pull. Try it and see.
No mention of the window being checked is weird - but it's simple enough to put the lamp back in place once you exit the window.
COMMENT #365 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/11/2005 @ 1:10 pm PT...
G #360 I can't take your word for it ... that exalts you above everyone. I quote sources outside myself when making declarations like that.
We can question all we like and that is valid, but making conclusive pronouncements is not the function of peers. One juror has the same authority as another.
I explained what I did on one type of apparatus and using the technique you mentioned certainly would NOT work on the mechanism I tested.
The performance of the police, who know about these things too, (see #363) was that they had to practice and try several times before doing it. That is UNLOCKING it, which is within the design specs.
It is NOT designed to be LOCKED from the outside, but by the special tool it is designed to be UNlocked because there are situations where people die or otherwise are incapicatated and entry is needed. There is no need to lock it from the outside.
Cite some experts or third party data, the detectives, and the like.
Don't demand that you are right and others are wrong. Present evidence not argument.
COMMENT #366 [Permalink]
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KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/11/2005 @ 1:11 pm PT...
Dredd #356 - yes, that's the photograph I was talking about. If you'll notice, the curtain is open a tiny bit on the side by the door, you can see the light from outside. That's not a flash reflection.
Snoopy #355 - perhaps it could have been his wife's cell phone number? His daughter's? His boss's? I'd wager that his wife would have called everyone she knew looking for him if he'd not have returned her pages, considering no one had seen or heard from him since that morning, and more than likely she wasn't the only one paging him.
COMMENT #367 [Permalink]
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KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/11/2005 @ 1:13 pm PT...
Snoopy #355 - Or, there's always the possibility the phone number was from a contact he was supposed to meet, warning him of danger.
And the fact that the police don't mention checking out that number smells fishy to me.
COMMENT #368 [Permalink]
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G
said on 3/11/2005 @ 1:19 pm PT...
People, people, keep it simple ...the more complex you make the less likely it occurred.
Simplicity, time (speed) and neatness are all the key elements to any professional. If he was murdered, it was planned and they were professionals.
Ray was obviously neat freak, very clean, a perfectionist and loving husband/dad. He was a "very good person" who was dedicated to doing the right thing as exemplified by his actions.
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Ray continued to investigate this on his own time case after the FDOT had officially closed it?
COMMENT #369 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/11/2005 @ 1:21 pm PT...
KestrelBrighteyes #366 that could just as well be sheetrock instead of light. There are brighter spots down near the bottom to, with a gap. Plus light travels in a straight line, not in a curve or bounce off curtains.
We need more than that.
Next, when and if we conclusively show a window is there, then does it have an opening component? If so which side opens? The side near the door or away from the door?
COMMENT #370 [Permalink]
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KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/11/2005 @ 1:24 pm PT...
Robert Lockwood #359 - He wouldn't actually have to have either of those character traits or have done anything wrong or illegal - how easy would it be to make it LOOK like he did? If these people would stoop to murder, they'd stoop to faking evidence and creating it to ruin someone's reputation - and his wife might have, for some reason, believed them.
Or, if she believed he was having an affair (whether he actually was or not), she might have wanted to protect the family from that information.
AGAIN, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO BACK ANY OF THIS UP!! I keep saying that because I don't want it to become part of the story, and I now somewhat regret even mentioning it - was just trying to put myself in his wife's place, and I'd sure as hell protect my husband's reputation if I thought he was involved with something sordid and I didn't want to tarnish his children's memory of him, there would be nothing to be gained except pain by allowing it to come out.
I know some won't understand that and won't agree with it, and maybe it's mostly a southern thing, it has to do with tarnishing the family name - what falls on one, falls on all.
COMMENT #371 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/11/2005 @ 1:26 pm PT...
Dredd - What about the way I explained closing the lock?
1) Wrap the wire (say the tiniest guage of guitar string) around the end of the U latch a few times (at the bottom of the U)
2) Wrap the wire around the bolt with the round end
3) Pull carefully while closing the door
Have you tried that method yet, or have you just tried tying a string to the U latch?
COMMENT #372 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/11/2005 @ 1:31 pm PT...
Has anyone mentioned heat ducts or ventilation shafts near the ceiling?
COMMENT #373 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/11/2005 @ 1:42 pm PT...
To clarify, in my suggested method, it would seem the best place to wrap around the bolt with the rounded tip would be towards its base-attachment.
And wire, such as small guage guitar strings, would seem to be preferable to mere string or floss because it would bw more likely stay in place around the U-latch.
COMMENT #374 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/11/2005 @ 1:58 pm PT...
Curiouser #371 Someone said we would have to know the type used on the door in the motel in the actual crime scene. I agree.
And that means it could be easier or harder than the test mechanism I used. So whatever I did is not at all conclusive ... just suggestive.
And it would mean that there is no window with an opening section near enough to reach in and do it by hand ... ASSUMING this job we hypothecate was not done by dumb and dumber.
What I mean is that professionals of the type that leave no traces that can be readily detected by professional detectives are going to do a job that does not have several tenuous what ifs. They know that the more moving parts there are the chances of getting caught go up.
Your method is as plausible as any ... if that is a technique professionals would use in the premises we are talking about.
Certainly the bottom line is that we need more evidence in the form of photos and reports. The detectives were there and know if there is a window or not.
But their records do not tell us conclusively, so we are somewhat at a disadvantage.
COMMENT #375 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/11/2005 @ 2:04 pm PT...
Hey, Kestrel...I was only trying to offer alternate scenarios in the spirit of devil's advocacy. I strongly believe Raymond Lemme was murdered, because he seems to me to have been a totally straight (in a non-sexual sense) guy with all the right human instincts.
If we can somehow rule out suicidal scenarios, we can then argue particulars about criminiality.
Sorry to misspell your name twice. Guess that means I'll never get to see those bright eyes from up close.
COMMENT #376 [Permalink]
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KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/11/2005 @ 2:25 pm PT...
Robert #375 - I knew you were playing devil's advocate, no offense was taken, I was just trying to clarify what I was saying. (This venue really leaves a lot to be desired sometimes as far as conveying intent, doesn't it?) There is reason to be sceptical of every single theory - if not, we run the risk of putting out nothing but conjecture that will lead us nowhere.
(And don't worry about mispelling my name, I assure you, I've been called much worse in my time
On a personal note, this is so surreal. I still can't believe this group could come up with so many observations, yet people who do this for a LIVING bungled it so badly.
I don't know about the rest of y'all, but I've spent too much time looking at this stuff in the past few days, I don't think it's healthy. This weekend will be another disconnect for me, at least while it's warm and clear outside. Life's too short, ya know?
COMMENT #377 [Permalink]
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Snoopy
said on 3/11/2005 @ 2:32 pm PT...
Regarding KestrelBrightEyes #365 and #366, again I ask, why would someone (the Lemmes) in Tallahassee pay for a phone with a number based over 100 miles away in Panama Beach? That's not logical. I can't tell you who owns the number, just the likelihood of who it isn't.
As for other pager issues:
Was the pager State of Florida issued or did Mr. Lemme pay for it?
Just where is the pager? It's not on any inventoy log. There's no sign Mrs. Lemme received it. The last we hear of the pager is in Detective Spencer's report. Was the pager reported lost to Metrocall?
We know the last number displayed on the pager. Did anybody bother to scroll through the other pages in memory? Even the most basic pager stores at least 10 pages.
On another note, ever wonder where the "lost" crime scene photos came from? There's at least one decent person (I'm sure many more) in the Valdosta P.D. I believe the photos were made available by one of the people we have discussed already. Whomever managed to get the pictures released is owed a big thank you!
COMMENT #378 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/11/2005 @ 2:41 pm PT...
KestrelBrighteyes #376 -
Have a wonderful weekend; and come back refreshed!
COMMENT #379 [Permalink]
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casolaro
said on 3/11/2005 @ 2:44 pm PT...
Can't see the stuff in the back of the appt book at which the pen is pointing, but it's true that the angle is weird for a rightie.
OK, if the windows are unopenable, so be it. It's also true that with four different officer reports we have three different accounts of how the door was opened and how much effort it took.
Has anybody noticed that although Officer Marlowe's "M" looks a lot like Lemme's on the "please print" receipt, so does Gartman's, and Marlowe's beginning R's and his low-crossed A's and E's and low-placed cap Y's are easy to spot, so he probably didn't write "Ray LEMME" in the print blank - but Gartman might have, given her uppercase traits (except that in her report she seems to be unaware of Lemme's actual name!). Another interesting feature of Gartman's report - http://insider-magazine.com/ValdostaPD.html about 1/6 of the way down the page beneath Marlowe's report - she said she used the emergency key, but she left out anything about the upper swing lock, and she left the scene, while Marlowe wrote this extra essay about how Gartman had had to jimmy the door at the end of his report, and in Spencer's typed version, the hotel provided a special tool for opening the upper latch (as people have pointed out, if a special tool to open that lock exists, it can certainly be used to shut that lock - and anyone who does this for a living (urgh!) would have such a tool).
If you believe Gartman's account, which is short, she and Marlowe were first on the scene, and no one else was there when Gartman left (Marlowe was calling for a supervisor) so maybe Spencer (whose name is on Marlowe's report as the Case Investigator) was trying to make things easier on everyone by skewing Marlowe's account to make it look more definitely like a suicide. Also notice that whatever Gartman originally entered on the OFFENSE line was scratched out and replaced with "SUICIDE." However, if you look at the Marlowe report's end, you see "released the crime scene over to OFC MAY" with a blank space after that --- and there is no officer May listed on the Crime Scene access sheet (admittedly it's mostly in Marlowe's cap-hand, so Ofc. May MAY have forgotten to count him/herself and just got a few others to sign it as they arrived or departed). There's not even anyone whose name begins with May...
Bowen from FDOT took any personal effects, according to Spencer's report.
COMMENT #380 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/11/2005 @ 2:48 pm PT...
Even assuming EVERYONE in the Valdosta P.D. is honest, there have been many anomalous happenings here. Lemme's driver's license separated from his wallet, items not inventoried, photos not available---then available again, timelines not consistent, etc. etc.
When the B-Team is forced to leave the field, where does the A-Team come from? That's a serious question.
COMMENT #381 [Permalink]
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G
said on 3/11/2005 @ 3:09 pm PT...
Dredd #365
You just don't get it, do you?
Anybody with mechanical skills would be able to grasp the simplicity and functionality of my statements concerning both the door lock, frame and ball latch. Look at the pictures and sketch of the floor plan. The police broke into two rooms in ten minutes.
I know that door, aluminum doorframe, lock and room better then you know your wife. I've spent hundreds of days and nights lying on beds in motel rooms exactly like that one. Room security was always a major concern. Chairs jammed under the door handle and smoke/door jar alarm always hung from the door.
My opinion was based up on those hundreds of nights spent in Holiday Inn rooms exactly like this one. I've stayed in motels during the robberies, I've been awaken by police car lights, I've talked to police officers and motel clerks about the how, why and what's. Over the years, I've looked at countless number of marks left by crowbars on aluminum doorframes and scratches left on doors. I've handled both the chain and ball latches thousands of times while ON THE ACTUAL DOOR.
Your opinion was based upon five minutes at a hardware store and playing with a prepackaged ball latch at home. That automatically makes you a locksmith and courtroom specialist.
Suggestion, if you really, really want to get it right. Check into an old style Holiday Inn Motel and play with the locks. If the police pictures don't satisfy your doubts about the aluminum-framed door then call the actual motel and ask "does this have aluminum door frames" and just for kicks ask " is this an old Holiday Inn Motel"? Better yet, call the police or motel and find out what special tools are used to open the doors? A crowbar maybe? A metal long metal shim or stiff piece of piano wire to unhook the ball latches?
Think about it? Your opinion is correct, your method of validation perfect and my statement a useless, baseless faulty claim? Righttttttttttttttttttt…………..
My point (taken from the police reports) is this; the police (like you) didn't know what they were doing and broke into two rooms in 10 or 15 minutes. Imagine what someone with professional or mechanical knowledge could accomplish.
Respectfully,
G.
COMMENT #382 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/11/2005 @ 3:12 pm PT...
#365-Dredd said:
"That is UNLOCKING it, which is within the design specs....It is NOT designed to be LOCKED from the outside, but by the special tool it is designed to be....Cite some experts or third party data, the detectives, and the like....Present evidence not argument."
Dredd, before I ask this, I just want you to know I'm only asking because I'm serious, not trying to be a smart-a$$. But, have you actually aquired "Specs" to any door latch like the one at Kings Inn which states the claims you made in the quoted comment above?
If so, then foul play is strongly ruled out, date discrepencies or no date descrepencies.
Just asking, if you haven't I might have to do some research on it to see what various manufacturers say about those latches.
COMMENT #383 [Permalink]
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G
said on 3/11/2005 @ 3:19 pm PT...
Dredd-
Sayyyyy ... try calling the motel and asking "do your rooms have windows that open"?
Or be very specific ... ask in a deep voice "does room 132 have windows that open"?
I bet the answer is "no".
Dredd we need more proof, facts here and less speculation.
Rightttttttt ....... factsssssssssssssss.... real factsssss.......
COMMENT #384 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/11/2005 @ 3:20 pm PT...
"G" comment 381.
First of all, keep "Dredd's" wife out of this. That kind of talk is not productive.
Second, please calm down. I've been reading your comments about using pry bars, forcing entry and what not...but the police reports all say there were Zero signs of forced entry or signs of a struggle. The photo's of the door back that up. Since you haven't stated any evidence that those things you are capable of doing yourself, happened in this case, that could be why no one seems to be going that direction.
You're imagination and creativity are certainly welcomed, but your personal insults and stubborn insistance that others accept your unsubstantiated claims, are not.
COMMENT #385 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/11/2005 @ 3:22 pm PT...
KestrelBrighteyes #376 and Robert Lockwood Mills #375. As to the category of "how Lemme could commit suicide", let me offer a hypothetical.
Take into consideration the story of Michael C. Ruppert (link here).
Ruppert tells the story about his father, mother, and fiancee being CIA. Ruppert himself was a bright and shining star within the LAPD as a narco detective. He discovered that the CIA was bringing serious quantities of drugs into the US with the help of some high ups in the LAPD. He futher discovered that his fiancee was the main or one of the main "handlers".
Based on his moral views he would not join the party and instead fought it. He went to superiors and all the way to congress. His reward was to be destroyed - lost his fiancee, family, and career. They did a campaign on him and ruined him. So he came to a point where he contemplated suicide.
Notice Snoopy's comment #347. He says that Lemme's wife worked for a "politically-connected" lawfirm in Tallahassee which dealt with government contracts, election law, and campaign finance.
Hello.
Speculate that Lemme finds out they are implicated in some way, including his wife. He, not being as strong as Ruppert, and his world just having come down on him, just as he thought he was going to be known as a major investigator ... well, you get the picture.
Wow, anyone wanna make a script outa this ... hey ... movie material.
Have fun all, just kidding ...
COMMENT #386 [Permalink]
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G
said on 3/11/2005 @ 3:24 pm PT...
Dredd-
One more thing... "Your full of shit".
COMMENT #387 [Permalink]
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Teresa
said on 3/11/2005 @ 3:29 pm PT...
Kes #376
The people who do this for a living were obviously ordered not to investigate. The establishment of this country is in a lockdown, so the crime family will have to be brought to justice by an alternative means. The Internet is part of it. The mystery is, what will complete the action?
You go on the basics... motive first... and then you get the case prepared for court with the details you are discussing.
As I say, the real question is how the people can wriggle out of this political mafia stranglehold.
COMMENT #388 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/11/2005 @ 3:33 pm PT...
Dredd, besides Ruppert (who seems to have recently given up on trying to convince human beings to act thusly and has decided to move towards survival methods), take a look at what happened to Wayne Madsen when he report pedophile/child porn activity by powerful military men.
Wayne still seems to be on the case.
Anyway, if I knew or even suspected that my spouse was a sell-out, I'd take even more precautions than Lemme seems to have. And maybe he did and we just don't know yet.
In any case, as mentioned earlier - isn't this in Cynthia McKinney's district? Has anyone contacted her about it?
She doesn't seem like a shrinking violet. I'm going to write her right now.
COMMENT #389 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/11/2005 @ 3:37 pm PT...
Well, Dredd, that's nothing to kid about. But if this is what we're dealing with, then who is more powerful than the C.I.A.?
Under your scenario, that would explain why Lemme's wife would want the whole thing put under wraps. And it might explain why Lemme would give up the ghost and divorce his wife. But suicide? A man is undermined by his wife's friends, so he kills himself?
I think it's more probable, given your hypothesis, that an honest man would decide to fight the system. If that's what Lemme did, he paid with his life for it. I think it supports the murder theory, not the suicide finding. One man's opinion, only, based not on experience but on instinct about human nature.
COMMENT #390 [Permalink]
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KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/11/2005 @ 3:39 pm PT...
Peg #378 - Thanks hon, I'll be helping to put up a fence, hauling and stacking firewood, and probably working in the garden, and to me, that's relaxing *L*
Snoopy #377 - He had a daughter old enough to be engaged - could she have lived in Panama City? Or perhaps it could have been another family member or friend looking for him after his wife put out the word that he was missing?
But yes, the fact that the pager wasn't taken as evidence is the strangest thing. That makes no sense at all. Also strange is the fact that they didn't mention who the number belonged to - it was a cell phone number (Powertel), so it wouldn't have taken a whole lot of effort to find out who the call was from.
Just out of curiosity - has anyone tried that number recently, just to see if anyone answers and who it belongs to now?
(And for whomever owns the number, my apologies, you are about to get a bezillion calls.)
COMMENT #391 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/11/2005 @ 3:45 pm PT...
Fred #382 I know they are designed to be locked from the inside based on:
1) common sense: when I see a key hole on one side I know it is designed to be opened from that side. A nite latch, like a door bolt without a key hole on the outside of the door, is designed to be locked from the inside.
2) Manufacturer: I did furnish pictures and a link to a manufacturer. I was the only one to do that (see #329).
3) Testing. Without anything but my hands I can lock it from the inside. I have to have special tools, stand on my head, jump thru hoops, etc. to even unlock it from the outside. It takes a good deal more than that to lock it from the outside, kinda like trying to lock a lock where the keyhole is inside and I am outside.
I conclude it is designed to be locked from the inside.
4) Security: if it were designed to be easily unlocked from the outside it is flawed, illogical, and a waste of time.
5) Professional Advice: professionals who instruct people about good hotels/motel practices tell me to use a hotel/motel where you can "Make sure your door has a peephole and night latch and use it" (link here).
NOTE: these are generic responses that hold true for any nite latch of this type. Matters of degree of each principle will depend on the quality of the particular nite latch, door, frame, etc.
COMMENT #392 [Permalink]
...
Teresa
said on 3/11/2005 @ 3:57 pm PT...
It looks as though the CIA has been stripped of its omnipotent power.
It's as if the crime has a life of its own and will lead to its solution if so destined.
One thing... it is in the open... and I still think it holds a golden key, speaking of locked and unlocked.
COMMENT #393 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/11/2005 @ 4:03 pm PT...
I still think my method of closing the U latch from the outside would work. Maybe I should check into a fleabag motel and check it out with a friend (1) to stay on the inside in case it works and (2) I don't want to be alone in those places after studying this.
Thanks all, have a good weekend!
COMMENT #394 [Permalink]
...
Teresa
said on 3/11/2005 @ 4:08 pm PT...
I think the CIA situation is important. It was always the operating hand of this crime syndicate, and it seems to be connected here.
I thought that the FBI and CIA were entirely seperate until recently, when they were brought together and weakened. A lot of people have been forced out of the game. I would like to know who is in charge of operations now.
I have been thinking for some time that there would be individuals involved seeking revenge, which might figure in to the big situation.
COMMENT #395 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/11/2005 @ 5:24 pm PT...
Dredd,
All I wanted to know was if you had actual specifications, because like you said in #365 "Present evidence not argument."
I'm actively researching that evidence right now. This case really is contingent on that one point. If the latch is not able to be swung shut from the outside in any way at all, then suicide is the only answer, short of ruling out the windows.
However, if it is possible, no matter the difficulty, then foul play cannot be ruled out, and all the inconsistencies in the investigation become major holes in the suicide argument. This is vital, so I'll keep looking for proof.
COMMENT #396 [Permalink]
...
cheryl
said on 3/11/2005 @ 5:58 pm PT...
Hi all!
I've been staying out of this because I'm no Agatha Christie, but I've been having fun reading all your hypotheses. One of you has probably guessed the answer to the puzzle and we don't even know it. Carry on; this is by far the most interest shown in any posting since I've been around.
One more thing. "G", it's real nice to have you around and participating. But we don't ridicule or insult each other around here. We're all friends. We respect each other. That's why this is the best blog on the net. Let's keep it that way, huh?
COMMENT #397 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/11/2005 @ 6:13 pm PT...
BTW, just call me Miss P.
#377 Snoopy, yes, I've wondered. And yes, they should have scrolled through. Maybe they did.
#379 Casolaro. Enough to make you cry.
New questions, observations:
1) If the coffee and water were the PD's then they wouldn't have photographed it. Since they did photograph it, it's part of the crime scene. Since the artist didn't draw the cups there and they weren't entered as evidence one might think the PD just threw them away. So where's the trash can? There isn't one (correct me if I'm wrong). So they left the crime scene and took the coffee cup and a water bottle? And why does a room not have a trash can? Or did it?
2) Snoopy - Would the pager show the time of the page?
3) RLMills - The pen is pointing to a piece of text under the suicide note. One of the PD reports says that Lemme's card from his place of work (FDOT) was there. Could it be an FDOT card, could he have wanted to point that out?
5) The only place in Floyds report that does more than just describe the facts is when she says that the "Desk chair was pushed back at an angle as someone had sat at the desk..." Hmmm.
6) Rigor mortis by 1pm on 7/1 would put the death no more than 24-36 hours prior. There was no AC on so it may have been quite warm, hastening the process.
COMMENT #398 [Permalink]
...
american woman
said on 3/11/2005 @ 6:45 pm PT...
The door latch issue:
Clint Curtis visited the exact room --- #132. He was able to close the door from the outside, latching the security bar. He did it with a fishing line, including removing the line.
COMMENT #399 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/11/2005 @ 6:58 pm PT...
Sigh. I think I need some on-the-ground help to get some answers before going on.
I know I've tried (as has everyone!) very, very hard to show that the case was surely closed too early, and even the work that was done seems to have too many holes, missing evidence, and even direct conflicts on top of inconsistencies.
FDOT not pursuing Lemme's "about to break" investigation beyond some payoff from Yang, or even the investigation of his own death is a big one. His boss surely knew, and his boss's boss the same.
Motel managers getting their act together and a lengthy interview of Floyd wouldn't bother me either. And where's the coffee cup, where's the trash can, was the watch wet or otherwise caused to stop, can the door be locked from the outside, credit card, credit card records, pager records, on and on. All of this stuff should have been readily answerable.
It is a crying, unfathomable shame.
I even still wonder if he was really mr. neat and clean or someone did that. Afterall, it's the safest way to leave things - style-less. Again, only one way to find out. Investigate.
All in all though, for me, if I had one wish it would be to see the text on the page to which his pen was pointing. Just gonna have to go with the gut on that one.
COMMENT #400 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/11/2005 @ 7:02 pm PT...
Oh good job American Woman! At least the case deserves to be OPEN!!!
COMMENT #401 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/11/2005 @ 7:28 pm PT...
Oh, ding ding ding ding ding, I hit the 400th post!
COMMENT #402 [Permalink]
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american woman
said on 3/11/2005 @ 7:33 pm PT...
Miss Persistent,
It may explain why, in part, the Valdosa police so readily called it a suicide. (sigh). Not having anything whatsoever to do with the business of investigating crime scenes, death etc... I guess I just assume that people who do are well aware of all the tricks.
This just tears at your heartstrings, doesn't it?
I hope someone can convince Valdosa to re-re-open this case.
COMMENT #403 [Permalink]
...
Peg C
said on 3/11/2005 @ 7:38 pm PT...
In Addition, American Woman and Miss Persistent -
I'm particularly perplexed by the "gospel" that everyone is assuming the police report to be. There were inconsistencies in the account(s) of methods for gaining entry to the room, so who is to say that there might not be inconsistencies as to the veracity of the assertion that the door was, in fact, bolted from the inside. If a police department can be called off an "investigation" twice, if its methods are patently slipshod and unprofessional beyond even hicktown belief, isn't it safe to assume that some pretty heavy pressure is being brought to bear from some pretty heavy hitters? FBI? CIA? The Department of Homeland Security? The...???
Furthermore, it has been assumed here that Mrs. Lemme is an innocent, bereaved wife. Given her place of employment and its "credentials," I'm not certain that trust is warranted.
COMMENT #404 [Permalink]
...
Winter Patriot
said on 3/11/2005 @ 7:38 pm PT...
Ding ding ding is Right. The first BradBlog thread to reach 400 comments and the 400th comes courtesy of Miss Persistent. Shows the value of persistence. Never surrender. Shows the value of the "submit" button as well. Miss Persistent had the 399th and 401st comments too.
COMMENT #405 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/11/2005 @ 7:43 pm PT...
Winter P -
Never, never, never, never, never, never...give up.
COMMENT #406 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/11/2005 @ 7:52 pm PT...
...american woman said on 3/11/2005 @ 6:45pm PT...
The door latch issue:
Clint Curtis visited the exact room --- #132. He was able to close the door from the outside, latching the security bar. He did it with a fishing line, including removing the line.
First, I couldn't stay away from here!
Second, this is good news! I won't have to go to a fleabag motel to find out for myself.
Third, where did you find this out, american woman?
I listened to the blogcall the other day and I don't remember hearing it there. I'd love to find out more details like that one! Thanks!
Lastly,
We're all friends. We respect each other. That's why this is the best blog on the net.
I'd have to agree.
COMMENT #407 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/11/2005 @ 8:08 pm PT...
#398 - American Woman
Please provide us your source on the Clint Curtis information concerning the "string theory" on the door guard latch. You better not be messing around because that is a serious claim. It's huge.
Where did you get that info?!!?
COMMENT #408 [Permalink]
...
Casolaro
said on 3/11/2005 @ 8:09 pm PT...
Not CIA. The skill set is the same, but you have here a group operating in a way the CIA is specifically prohibited from operating, especially on US soil --- and you have ample evidence that although Bush Sr got along just fine with CIA, Junior hates them with a passion and has deployed the Goss monster to take out as many of the experienced and principled agents and administrators as he can - essentially ANYONE willing to stand up to the administration. It's a pain in the butt to watch and I think it is more damaging to US intel than the Great Disemboweling of 1978 was (see the careers of both Tower and Church for more details about that).
If you want some private company which has a link to both Valdosta and Casolaro's Inslaw investigation (why not?!), it's Alltel. Not just a comm company, Alltel Information Services in a previous incarnation was one of the companies involved with the guy marketing the pirated Inslaw s/w. And man, they are knee deep in highly classified govt contracts. Don't blame the Air Force, even though Moody is there - there are AF bases all over the place. Look for the people with a lot of money or power to lose.
I think CIA has, at least up 'til very recently, had a lot of principled people who might do all kinds of nasty things to foreign nationals *outside* the US, and maybe who've *collaborated* with FBI (who are supposed to carry the ball on our soil), and both have in the past had some truck with NSA (who are elint whizkids but who are NOT supposed to do domestic --- although that probably changed in 2001), but this kind of thing doesn't match any of these agencies. For one thing, taking out a nice older AF reservist who was just investigating wrongdoing is not the kind of thing one can expect to keep quiet in a force recruited from a bunch of tough, cleancut idealists (not idealogues). There's a huge difference between advising Central Americans on how to treat Communists, even if you eventually hear that they decided a busload of nuns constituted a Commie insurgency, and *doing it yourself, to a guy like Ray Lemme.* It just doesn't fit.
This is something different, could be a private company composed of (essentially) mercs; some of those companies accept people who did too many naughty things when employed by one of the above, or ex-military black ops types who did same. There's even a cute company in Florida made up mostly of ex-Mossad agents although that would definitely not fit the profile of the "three suspicious men in the parking lot," if indeed they had anything at all to do with this. As others have pointed out, it's not the greatest neighborhood in lovely tree-lined Valdosta.
On that note, does anybody in this thread feel like a road trip to the Knight's Inn to check out the window, doorjamb, and night latch situation? If you live in Atlanta, it's right on the way to Orlando --- stop the night on your trip to Haus of Maus...
Have a good weekend, all. BrightEyes, you're absolutely right, I've also been checking in here and reading this thread compulsively... Ray Lemme's death just had this awful feeling about it, even backi when Brad first mentioned it, and the more I read of it, the more I'm convinced that we have a hit squad running around offing good people, and the more offended I am, and the more determined I become to try to be of some assistance. If possible.
Speaking of which, does Brad have a PO Box we can stuff with cash posted anywhere? I'm not a PayPal fan.
COMMENT #409 [Permalink]
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casolaro
said on 3/11/2005 @ 8:20 pm PT...
oops! Problem with long posts - Am Woman and Miss P were all over the night latch thing while I was composing (better than decomposing, usually). Good stuff - and I add to the chorus: where did Curtis' trip to rm 132 get posted??
COMMENT #410 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/11/2005 @ 8:29 pm PT...
Teehee Winter Patriot, yes I had a little run there didn't I?
American Women, And here we are, with no training, coming up with an seemingly endless list of what are some very critical questions. And the lead investigator is a teacher! Seems like we need a "No Investigator Left Behind" Act.
Peg C, I don't know for sure but I'll bet we've all questioned authority from the get go. I've cringed more than once in taking the police reports as fact. In my mind I always wondered if they even showed a picture to anyone they asked about Lemme.
Glad you won't have to go to a Fleabag Inn Curiouser! Hurray for Clint Curtis and the fish wire!
COMMENT #411 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/11/2005 @ 8:42 pm PT...
Funny you should mention a road trip to Valdosta Casolaro, I thought about it dammit. But I'm in MD unfortunately...or fortunately.
Well, if we ever cause this case to break I think we should all have a get together...rent a bunch of rooms at the Fleabag Motel...chat a bit...check the facilities for future fleabag reference...make a few crank calls to the Valdosta PD...JUST KIDDING!
COMMENT #412 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/11/2005 @ 8:46 pm PT...
Thinking aloud:
Check-in clerk said she told customer that check-out was at 11am.Did she ID Lemme as same person who checked in, by photo of body.
Did Lemme arrange a meeting at the motel
2 guys seen by young girl in carpark (darkish skinned) WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE they were said to be quite large guys , muscles not fat by descriptions – wet work specialists?
3 guys seen ½ hour later in carpark(2d/s 1 possible white )by other witness IS THE THIRD MAN LEMME ?
Have all witnesses at the motel been showed a photograph of Lemme ?
egress –did rooms have ceiling hatch/panels with a “crawl space”.
reverse door unlatching tool to lock from outside ,these people are Professionals ,no problem.
How many places that sold take away coffee are in the area and how many stores that may sell razor blades , did Lemme use this type of blade normally ,ask brother maybe.
About the watch stopping from water , wasn’t the bath empty ,of water at least ?
Odd that room 234 was directly above 132 and tenanted (I’d have spread the guest out ) this person may be helpful if he could be tracked down.
Floyd has “moved on” has any other attending officers “moved on”?
Is it normal to remove a page out of a diary as evidence rather than take the whole diary?
The ROPE with dark stains on it in the trunk of his car , a piece of rope in the room?
COMMENT #413 [Permalink]
...
Peg C
said on 3/11/2005 @ 9:01 pm PT...
Casolaro -
You *sound* unusually in-the-know. We won't ask who you are; but we WILL ask that you bring everything you know to bear on this matter. You've obviously had some exposure to covert ops. Something is very wrong here, it involves the "government," and we need to be able to dig it to its depths.
When honest, innocent explorers die, we all die.
COMMENT #414 [Permalink]
...
Snoopy
said on 3/11/2005 @ 9:07 pm PT...
Miss P,
Congrats on #400!
As for #397, yes, many modern alphanumeric pagers have a date and timestamp. Only the most low-budget models don't.
Kes,
Regarding #390, I thought that maybe the Lemme's have friends or family in Panama Beach. There are a few resources I intend to examine over the next few days to see if I can get any leads. My fellow sleuths/concerned citizens may want to try www.myflorida.com in order to get links to many sources for public information in Florida. That site is an official Florida government website and connects to property appraisers and clerks of the court for every county.
If anybody gets up the nerve to try the number in the police report, I'd like to hear the outcome. For me, I will try other means.
I have a request for anyone taking a road trip to the Knight's Inn. Please look for surveillance cameras near the registration desk and around the parking lot.
COMMENT #415 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/11/2005 @ 9:22 pm PT...
Interesting MMIIXX - Maybe Lemme was the 3rd guy!
Maybe we can keep the following list going (cut, paste, add facts, references, delete, etc. as needed and repost with any changes? Feel free to format.)
Hotel check in times 7p - 11a (from receipt)
6/30
5.15a Lemme last seen alive by wife;
6.15a Lemme calls boss from pay phone about
being late and that he'd call later;
7.30a Witness sees 3 men - 2 black one white;
8.00a Witness sees 3 men - 2 black one white;
12.34 Possible watch stop;
1.30p Meeting between Lemme and atty
scheduled;
2:00p Attorney calls boss about where is Lemme;
3.00p Car seen in lot by witness;
4.00p Boss calls wife leaves message;
5.00p Witness tells Lemme since he checked in
early he'd have to leave early;
7/1
11.00a Was supposed to check out no answer;
1.00p Police arrive. 30 hours since 8am by now;
COMMENT #416 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/11/2005 @ 9:28 pm PT...
Hey Snoopy, I swear my fingers were SO close to dialing that number. The ONLY reason I didn't was that I thought it may be the wife. I then went ahead and did pay to get the names of people with that number (minus the area code) and only 1 is in Florida - Tampa, 53 years old, Thomas W. Case.
COMMENT #417 [Permalink]
...
Snoopy
said on 3/11/2005 @ 9:42 pm PT...
More observations and questions:
Based on Detective Spencer's report, on July 2nd, Mike Bowen of the FDOT showed up at the Valdosta P.D. to gather personal effects and deliver them to Mrs. Lemme. Spencer indicates he Bowen signed the property sheet for the items taken. It appears that items 8 through 15 were taken, which includes Mr. Lemme's silver Bulova watch. So much for that evidence.
Strangely, the notebook was returned by Detective Spencer directly to Mrs. Lemme in October, 2003. Why bother with one item months later? What are the circumstances around this transfer? Did she ask for the item or was she contacted by the V.P.D.? Did she travel 80 miles just for a notebook or did further questioning take place?
On July 3rd, Dave Sparks of the FDOT picked up Mr. Lemme's Chevy Malibu with the understanding it was to be returned to Mrs. Lemme. Spencer noted "see property sheet". We don't have a sheet for the car based on what I've seen posted. Is there a separate evidence sheet? Because the pager and wallet were in the car console, are they listed on the same sheet? Did Dave Sparks drive away with the car, pager and wallet? If not, whatever happened to the pager and wallet?
I find it a little odd that the FDOT employees were so involved with the property issues. Aren't they just a little too helpful? Didn't the Lemme's have trusted friends or family who could help them with these matters? In troubled times, I don't think of my co-workers as the first people I would go to for help.
As an aside, it appears that Detective Spencer was much more involved in the case. We don't see Shannon Floyd's name much after the initial investigation.
COMMENT #418 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/11/2005 @ 10:07 pm PT...
Yes, I developed a certain "trust" for Spencer. You make good points about FDOT and the belongings.
And I'm trying my darnest to see what that word or name is next to where the pen was pointed. I've zoomed, inverted black white, etc. It's so blurry. But at one point it looked to me like it said, "Stan." I Googled it. There's a Stan on the board of directors at FDOT. Looks like Clift (was that Lemme's boss' name?) isn't there anymore. I'm definitely not going out on a limb with the name, it's pretty far-fetched and too hard to see but interesting it worked out.
http://www.dot.state.fl....office/moreDOT/phone.htm
COMMENT #419 [Permalink]
...
Peg C
said on 3/11/2005 @ 10:22 pm PT...
This is a "for instance:"
Phone rings at Valdosta COP office: " This is (Agency) requesting that you pull in your horns regarding the Lemme suicide investigation. We are watching this case and believe it to be a national security matter. Please stand down, allow it to be found as a suicide, and let us pursue the case from there."
Valdosta Police do as they are told, trusting and patriotic as always.
The case dies.
Voices of protest are raised, VPD reopens the Lemme "case," is instructed to ignore questions, again in the interests of "national security" (after all, people want to KILL us and this might enable the "terrorists" or the spies), and closes the case again.
Does ANYONE here believe that there's an innocent explanation either for Lemme's death or for its cover? The Clan Bush is up to something no good with the China trade, and inquisitive people get in the way.
COMMENT #420 [Permalink]
...
american woman
said on 3/11/2005 @ 11:36 pm PT...
Sorry for taking so long to respond about the source. Clint Curtis wrote a (self-published) book --"Just a Fly On The Wall".
COMMENT #421 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/11/2005 @ 11:39 pm PT...
MP - I don't think it's too far-fetched to mention Stan Cann. We're going to need to know a LOT more about the FDOT in order to get to the bottom of this.
Here's an article about him from 2/7/05
http://www.theledger.com.../20050207/NEWS/502070380
...a 34-year relationship with the FDOT. ... He oversees 12 counties, including Polk, 880 employees, and a five-year $2.2 billion budget. ... married his longtime girlfriend, Mary-Ann. ... Cann's brother introduced her ... 30th wedding anniversary this year. ... An audit in the maintenance division had found financial malfeasance. There were more than 50 accounting problems, including allegations of theft within the department. Cann fixed the problem in a year. It was foreshadowing of the role he would play 20 years later.
... As a private consultant, he helped the Federal Transit Administration in the $1.7 billion reconstruction of Interstate 25 in Denver. He also helped design a subway extension into the San Francisco International Airport. ... Cann estimated he has worked on $6 billion in road and transit projects during his career. ... [Mike] Rippe [director of transportation development] chose not to talk about the transition at the agency during the sexual harassment investigation. "I'm a positive person," Rippe said. "I don't have a good answer for you," Rippe said when asked if it was difficult for him and the agency. ... Cann, the only manager to serve as secretary in two districts during the history of the FDOT, said things are running smoothly again at the Bartow District 1 headquarters. ... "It was a tough time," Cann said about taking over the District 1 job during a period of controversy. "But I knew this was a first-class organization. I've never been so excited in my 31-year career."
Pardon the pun, but it would seem that many roads lead to Stan Cann.
COMMENT #422 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/11/2005 @ 11:41 pm PT...
American Woman ... that's right! And during the blogcall he said that he runs justaflyonthewall.com!
I totally forgot about that. Thanks!
COMMENT #423 [Permalink]
...
american woman
said on 3/11/2005 @ 11:49 pm PT...
Ok, guys. Since for some reason I seem to be the only one with Clint's book, I can type in his words about the trip he made to room #132. It may take a while, but hang on. It might at least save y'all a trip! (Or heck, take the trip. Maybe you'll see stuff he didn't see. But he was pretty thorough.)
COMMENT #424 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/11/2005 @ 11:59 pm PT...
Appreciated, AW! Where did you find a copy? I didn't see it for sale on his site.
COMMENT #425 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/12/2005 @ 1:00 am PT...
OOPS! Apparently the following are not cached:
Ex-DOT Employee Working At Firm
May 25, 04
Inquiry: DOT Not a Hostile Workplace
May 27, 04
Engineer to Head DOT Office
Jun 24, 04
...not even in the Wayback Machine at archive.org
COMMENT #426 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/12/2005 @ 1:13 am PT...
Re: STAN
See COMMENT #418 [link]
...Miss Persistent said on 3/11/2005 @ 10:07pm PT...
I figured I'd look into who this "Stan the Healer" might be and what kind of role he's played at FDOT.
From what I've read he sounds kind of like the character that Harvey Keitel played in 'Pulp Fiction' (Winston 'The Wolf' Wolfe)
Stan the Healer is called in when feces is hitting rotating blades.
Given what happened with Lemme, I have to wonder what role (if any) he played in determining FDOT's reactions. Given that MP might have found his name at the crime scene, I thought it might be even more relevant ("all the way to the top"?).
Question: Is suicide a 'crime'? I didn't think so. So, if not, why do the police reports continually refer to a situation they almost immediately presume is a suicide as a "crime scene"? Maybe that's standard. I don't know.
COMMENT #427 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/12/2005 @ 1:38 am PT...
This FDOT Map shows that Stan Cann's District 1 is southeast FL (Polk down to Collier), not the panhandle where FDOT headquarters is at, so this info could be irrelevant. (Notably, it does include the Venice & Sarasota areas ~ the area where the 9/11 flight training schools & Booker Elementary School are located.)
I just wanted to try to flesh out who "Stan" might be. I do NOT mean to misdirect or waste anyone's time. I hope this informaton will have just the opposite effect.
COMMENT #428 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/12/2005 @ 2:19 am PT...
American Woman, thanks for that piece on the latch. It confirms my suspicions.
Keep this in the back of your minds as we move forward:
Is "Pay Fast Track" a check cashing or payday loan place?
Or is it a gas station like place? Raymond Lemme called from a payphone (997-3847) at a "Pay Fast Track" to leave his boss a message at 6:20am, 6/30/03. That is on Lemme's way to Valdosta.
Here is a "Fast Track" in that same area I found. Their phone is 850-997-8787. I'm going to call them in the morning.
COMMENT #429 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/12/2005 @ 2:47 am PT...
Fred & others - try maps.google.com. It seems much easier to use than mapquest.
Speaking of the message to his boss, I just noticed this about Mary Ann Lemme's Affidavit:
"When I got home @ approx 6:45p, there was a message on our phone from his boss, Bob Clift, left @ approx 4pm, checking in on him since he had not heard from him since he left a message on his phone this a.m. @ approx 6.15a[?]m saying that he would be late because he [crossed out]had to[/crossed out] said something came up & he would call later."
She started to convey that Mr. Clift might have told her that Ray had indicated what he "had to" do, but seems to have thought better of it and simply say "something came up".
I don't have anything against Mrs. Lemme. I can only try to determine how I might feel if I was in her shoes. I'm sure she had a lot on her mind when she wrote her Affidavit. But I think it would be a mistake to presume that she might not have been under greater duress that simply not knowing where Ray was.
Giving her the benefit of the doubt includes considering the possibility that she was tailoring her Affidavit to what somebody had told her she ought to write, and omitting other items of fact.
What did Lemme tell Clift he "had to" do? What did Clift tell Mrs. Lemme Ray had said he "had to" do?
Anyway, I hope you find maps.google.com useful! I know I have in determining locations while looking at this.
COMMENT #430 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/12/2005 @ 2:56 am PT...
One more thing about Mary Ann's Affidavit:
I transcribed it as "6:15a[?]m" because it looks more like "PM" to me, similar to how she wrote "4PM".
Again, I'm not trying to nitpick or unfairly criticize Mrs. Lemme. She may have needed all the strength she could muster just to fill out an Affidavit.
Still, I wanted to point it out as a curiosity. What's our proof that Lemme was at home on the night of the 29th and didn't leave until 5:15am on the 30th? Mrs. Lemme's word so far as I know.
What's our proof that Lemme called his boss from anywhere on the 30th? Mr. Clift's word.
I'd like more verification than that in both cases.
COMMENT #431 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/12/2005 @ 3:17 am PT...
The Knights Inn check in card is time-stamped "6:44PM".
Regarding the time it took to get from the Lemme's home to the Knights Inn, AW said at #211 "Clint Curtis tried 2 different routes. His best: 1 hour 20 minutes.", presumably based on his book.
6:44PM - 1:20 = ~ 5:24PM.
6/29/03 was a Tuesday, so that would be during rush hour.
So, add some time and say around 5:00PM.
What time did Ray usually get home? What proof do we have that he ever got home on the 29th?
What if he was taken right after work on the 29th? The time frame would seem to fit.
I know it sounds like I'm accusing his widow of being "in on it". Who knows? I don't, and given that she noted it was "out of character" for Ray to be away without notice, how much more "out of character" was it that he left town to go commit suicide in a fleabag motel?
Her working at FDOT connected Holland & Knight doesn't make me feel any better about what she may have known.
Question: What was the name of their daughter? It wasn't Theresa, was it?
COMMENT #432 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/12/2005 @ 3:40 am PT...
There is absolutely a disconnect here between the D.O.T.'s willingness to help gather Lemme's belongings (a gracious gesture to save a bereaved wife from having to do it) and its efforts to block any further investigation of his death. First they're eager to help, then they want it to go away.
If we start with the question, "What possible reason could a transportation agency have for obstructing an out-of-state municipal police department's investigation into their own employee's suspicious death, apparently in the course of his duties?" we find very few plausible answers. The only one I've been able to come up with consistent with suicide is that Lemme had an embarrassing personal weakness that his widow wants to keep private, and prevailed on the D.O.T. to help her do so.
Peg is on the right track, I believe. If Childress was asked to abort two investigations on "national security" grounds, that would explain it...but only if an authoritative person made the request. I doubt a phone call would have done it. A visit from someone in homeland security or the F.B.I., maybe.
COMMENT #433 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/12/2005 @ 3:46 am PT...
RLM - I believe the likely operative phrase would be:
"Make this disappear."
Any opinion on why a 'routine suicide scene' was referred to as a "crime scene"? Is that just SOP?
COMMENT #434 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/12/2005 @ 3:53 am PT...
Fred #395 The only way to conclusively determine how the exact nite latch works in that particular location is to test the actual one there.
Notice that I pointed this out specifically in #374 where I said:
"Someone said we would have to know the type used on the door in the motel in the actual crime scene. I agree.
And that means it could be easier or harder than the test mechanism I used. So whatever I did is not at all conclusive ... just suggestive."
Now American Woman in post #398 and #427, which you acknowledge in #407, is "huge", has supplied test results on the actual hinge in the actual room.
We have evidence from the actual site done by Clint Curtis.
We have now explored a most critical factor, and have resolved it. We have to be better than those we criticize for not doing a good enough job, and that is why I brought the issue up in the first place.
Time to move on to other issues.
Good work all!
COMMENT #435 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/12/2005 @ 4:25 am PT...
Curiouser #432 As to whether or not suicide is a crime, it depends on the state.
The crime investigation class at the university I linked to in #156 assumes it is.
Also, proper criminal investigative technique, as that link also points out, is to assume a murder has taken place rather than a suicide.
But the investigation design is set up to disprove the murder if any facts support that direction.
Only when the facts show realistically that it was suicide does the investigator switch toward that direction.
And then it depends on the state as to whether it is a crime or not. It is important for insurance reasons too. If a wrong determination is made that it was suicide it could cost a grieving family the money they need to survive after loosing the bread winner. Insurance companies can refuse to pay life insurance if it was a suicide.
When I earned a living as an investigator and mentor for law firms I worked on some heavy felony cases.
Once case I remember was where the court paid me (the defendant was in forma pauperis - too poor to afford a defense) to do an investigation in a 6-count felony charge for burglary in a dwelling. My investigation cleared him of those charges, so instead of 6 10-to-life sentences he received probation.
The reason was that none of the buildings were "dwellings" but instead were storage sheds.
Traditionally there is a big difference in american and british jurisprudence between burglary in a home and in a storage building. The main reason being the liklihood of people being hurt or invaded. Chattels (property) in our tradition are not accorded the same value as life and privacy.
Anyway, my law degree helps in investigations because all evidence is relevant to some law, and so one must keep focus on that.
Which is what your question "is suicide a crime" focused on - a law.
COMMENT #436 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/12/2005 @ 4:39 am PT...
Curiouser---No opinion on the "crime scene" language. Suicide is technically illegal, but not a crime in the justice sense (obviously). My guess would be that they use that terminology whenever they investigate a suspicious death. The "crime scene" must be secured, don't touch anything in the "crime scene," etc. etc.
It strikes me that whatever motivated Childress to abort the second investigation might also be keeping Mary Ann Lemme subdued. They could have spoken to her directly, to the effect that "Ray was working on a highly sensitive matter involving national security. The federal government is now investigating it privately, so please ask urge the Valdosta P.D. to not pursue their investigation. We have already done the same thing. Thanks, dear."
Doesn't Childress' present attitude suggest he'd really like to cooperate, but can't? "I don't want to sound as if I'm stonewalling, guys, but....etc. etc."
Thanks to American Woman and Clint Curtis for explaining away a major riddle in the case. Assuming Ms. Floyd wasn't well informed on how locks work, it's easy to see why she would consider the bolted door ro be proof positive of suicide. Now, it's equally easy to see why the opposite is true.
In order to test their ability to bolt the door from the outside, the hit men decided to occupy the room a day early (6/29). One of them impersonated Lemme (this would tend to eliminate the two black men as suspects) and rented the room. This guaranteed the hit men time to make sure they could bolt the door from the outside, before Lemme arrived on the evening of 6/30.
COMMENT #437 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/12/2005 @ 4:50 am PT...
RLM - How do we know for certain that Lemme wasn't taken to the hotel on the evening of 6/29/03?
See my Comment #437.
Also interesting coincidence...
The time-stamp of the Knights Inn 6/29/03 receipt is 6:44.
Mrs. Lemme's Affidavit notes that she got home on the 6/30/03 at 6:45.
So if the receipt really was from 6/30/03, her alibi is already set, because she carefully notes that she wasn't even home until about the exact time her husband was uncharacteristically checking into an out-of-state fleabag motel to commit suicide.
Ain't that convenient?
COMMENT #438 [Permalink]
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Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/12/2005 @ 5:12 am PT...
Well, I'm assuming Ray Lemme did in fact spend the night of 6/29-6/30 at home in Tallahassee. That's what his wife said, and her testimony is supported by the fact that he made a phone call on 6:15 a.m. of 6/30 from a site closer to Tallahassee than Valdosta.
If he had checked into a motel on the evening of 6/29 in Valdosta, and meant to be there the next day, why would he have driven all the way back to Tallahassee to go to bed for a few hours?
Mary Ann Lemme doesn't look like a suspect to me. She looks like a victim of circumstances, exactly like her husband, exactly like Childress, and exactly like the wonderful country we remember.
COMMENT #439 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/12/2005 @ 5:16 am PT...
That's what his wife said, and her testimony is supported by the fact that he made a phone call on 6:15 a.m. of 6/30 from a site closer to Tallahassee than Valdosta.
Why do you trust her? You just said she might be being leaned on! And why do you trust the claim of the 6:15am call on 6/30? I mean, where's the proof of either? Sorry, but I don't automatically trust Mrs. Lemme or Mr. Clift. I want proof.
As for him checking in, how do we know it was him? Or that the duress had not already begun?
Mrs. Lemme does look like a possible accomplice to me. Why is she so willing to let her husband be accused of suicide? Why doesn't she want to know more?
Methinks you trust too much.
Just as with the latch, I want to see the proof.
COMMENT #440 [Permalink]
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casolaro
said on 3/12/2005 @ 8:06 am PT...
Gas. The only way we are giong to figure out whether he did check in the night before (so as to have a meeting place set up? To house his informant? The bed was never used, so he did not sleep the night there unless the maids really don't know their jobs - which is also certainly possible given the timeline) is to trace the gas receipts. He probably needed some gas at some time during the perambulations, and the FastTrack (yes, it's a gas station) seems like a good bet as the source for both the coffee and the water and even the gas if he did the trip the night before and hadn't filled, although there are certainly plenty of places to get coffee coming off of the interstate in Valdosta, even early in the morning. The water wasn't full, so he was hydrating - that's very conscientious of him as a cardiac patient. None of that points to intent to shuffle off the mortal coil. If someone could get the financials and check the gas station receipts, they could tack down the distances traveled over the days in question, given the standard mileage for his Malibu: 26 - 30 mpg conservatively, the range is supposed to be about 150 miles but may of course be 200 hwy. So he *would* need gas.
OK, Dredd, you have investigator creds... what would a normal investigator (no Wunnerful DBs) need to be able to track down said receipts - permission of the family, or just the credit card numbers?
COMMENT #441 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/12/2005 @ 8:31 am PT...
Curiouser #432 update. This link shows that suicide is a crime in most states. This is a social policy to inform the public about right and wrong, rather than a practical law (if the person is dead you can't prosecute them for killing themselves).
In Georgia, however, I can find no statute specifically making it a crime.
COMMENT #442 [Permalink]
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Cole...
said on 3/12/2005 @ 8:33 am PT...
Following this thread a lot has been said-so to add to that and hope not to repeat others.
First, it is interesting that a guy bent on suicide was so compulsive as to empty his pockets and neatly lay items out well spaced on the sink counter.
Hang up his clothes---I could not identify his pants in the photos.
Write a brief note.
But most curious is the manner of suicide. A belt for a touniquet? Two cuts on the left arm 'near the elbow'? Awkward! The more classic way would be to slice both wrists-multiple slices.
And for those who are trying to figure a timeline you have to adjust for the time of slicing open a single vessel and a slow exsanguination. There are numerous people walking around who sliced both wrists got in a tub of hot water and waited to die then changed their minds. Lots of time to think!
And lots of time to get very uncomfortable in the postion he was in, could have been hours--so figiting and rotating should have spread more blood about the tub.
And, of course, could this fairly minor wound allow for the massive blood loss to be lethal?
The whole scene is just to neat, more like Lemme was incapacitated rather than 'depressed'.
Just comments no conclusion.
COMMENT #443 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/12/2005 @ 8:50 am PT...
Casolaro #446 You mentioned that I "have investigator creds" ... but that was a long time ago.
Like playing pro ball, when you stay on the sidelines or retire you loose it.
I am no better than anyone else ... and note that the manhunt for the Atlanta killer is composed of many, many calls for help from the public.
We are all equal in this.
You asked "what would a normal investigator ... need to be able to track down said receipts - permission of the family, or just the credit card numbers?"
A good hacker and the credit card numbers just kidding.
Without the wife or family's assistance obviously it is made more difficult.
I would suggest doing a freedom of information act (FOIA) request to the Valdosta police and to the Florida DOT. That would depend on there being such a law in either or both states.
If either went that far and sought those records they should be in the file ... but with the card numbers redacted / blanked out.
Also consider the Curtis book, he seems to have done a very good job of looking into background matters.
Also looking for insiders willing to give a tip within these places if there is not FOIA.
COMMENT #444 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/12/2005 @ 9:20 am PT...
I just came across an interesting issue as to Georgia law. It is interesting because we have been assuming no autopsy is required.
Maybe and maybe not. But what is required is a competent medical examiner's inquiry. Notice:
Title 45, Chapter 16, Section 24 (45-16-24)
"(a) When any person dies in any county in this state:
(1) As a result of violence;
(2) By suicide or casualty;
....
(5) In any suspicious or unusual manner, with particular attention to those persons 16 years of age and under;
...
it shall be the duty of any law enforcement officer or other person having knowledge of such death to notify immediately the coroner or county medical examiner of the county wherein the body is found or death occurs."
Ok, the record shows that the officers did that. But read on:
"(b) A coroner or county medical examiner who is notified of a death pursuant to subsection (a) of this Code section shall order a medical examiner's inquiry of that death."
Notice the use of the word "shall" rather than the word "may". This means a medical examiner's inquiry is mandatory.
And for any such inquiry to be competent, most often an autopsy would be required. Right?
Those medical examiner's records should be public.
Has anyone heard of them?
COMMENT #445 [Permalink]
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czaragorn
said on 3/12/2005 @ 9:30 am PT...
Regards, Dredd - I'd bet they can't be successfully subpoenaed because they don't exist. It should be an exciting pursuit!!!
COMMENT #446 [Permalink]
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Snoopy
said on 3/12/2005 @ 9:33 am PT...
Another inventory observation:
Out of all of Mr. Lemme's items inventoried, as of October, 2003, here are the items from the crime scene that the Valdosta P.D. kept in custody:
Photos
Double edge stainless steel blades
Stent patient implant card
Knight's Inn check-in receipt
Knight's Inn receipt
Weekly medicine storage with misc. pills
By "photos" do they mean crime scene memory cards or other photos in Mr. Lemme's possession?
Why keep his implant card?
"Misc. pills"? The pill holder was relevant enough to keep in custody, however, the notebook was given to Mrs. Lemme? In Detective Floyd's report she notes, "The organizer contained miscellaneous business cards,..other miscellaneous papers and cards documenting meetings and emails." Why return the notebook to Mrs. Lemme, but not the stent card or pill dispenser? The notebook was important evidence that could provide clues to the events just prior to Mr. Lemme's death.
I agree with RLM #444 about the parties who are victims of circumstances. The parties who had real, timely motives to quiet Mr. Lemme were the YEI owners and Rep. Feeney. Of course these individuals didn't do the crime themselves, but it is entirely plausible they conspired to have the job taken care of by professionals.
COMMENT #447 [Permalink]
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czaragorn
said on 3/12/2005 @ 9:43 am PT...
Hi All! It's 6:30 in Prague right now, and there's a tender crescent of moon hanging at about 8 o'clock in a sky that runs from robin's-egg blue at the horizon to "deep purple" or somesuch at the zenith. As I watch it from my office here, the moon is hanging above a miniature of Lomonosov University in Moscow, currently a Crowne Plaza hotel. It's a view I wish I could share with you all, my brothers and sisters at Bradsville. If you could slide Prague around on the map it would be 300 or so miles to the north of Ft. Kent (Hi Peg!) Maine, but the snowdrops are finally (a few weeks late) poking up through the remaining snow and showing their buds. There is hope for us all. Brad, please stay safe, and Watson! Pay attention to the details, wherein the devil dwells... Spring is on the way!!!
COMMENT #448 [Permalink]
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czaragorn
said on 3/12/2005 @ 9:47 am PT...
Sorry - I admit to straying OT. Flog on, please!
COMMENT #449 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/12/2005 @ 10:07 am PT...
Czaragorn #454 "Regards, Dredd"
Thanks ... your country sounds quite beautiful!
"I'd bet they can't be successfully subpoenaed because they don't exist. It should be an exciting pursuit!!!
Could be.
But one thing is for sure, when officials break the law to avoid discovery, there is something foul afoot.
COMMENT #450 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/12/2005 @ 10:54 am PT...
Snoopy #452. Is it true that Mrs. Lemme did not take the shoes or the money clip or the glasses also? (Speaking of glasses, note they are not in the case.) Mrs. Lemme only took the black notebook? What a coincidence that FDOT went to get it for her.
Remember, Lemme did not have a toothbrush or shaving kit - nor did he buy them. However, his stuff is laid out to look like he was about to get in the shower. He emptied his pockets, had the receipts without the bank card, glasses not in case. Except the evidence that places the time. Could he have been made to take a shower before the incident to wash off any DNA evidence? And ruin the watch which they took off for him? Blood runs up the shirt.
If there was blood on the bathroom door, and none noted on the floor, and a bloody wash cloth in the tub, could someone have cleaned bloody footprints?
BTW, Floyd did the drawing of the room (minus the cups and trash can).
I'm looking for Mrs. Lemme's statement where I think she said Mr. Lemme was recently diagnosed with some new heart condition? Anyone remember? Could have been a dream. I was just wondering because of Lemme's use of the word "heart" in the note. The double underlined I love you also kind of "clears" Mrs. Lemme - at first glance. But then, we are not on our first glance are we
More on the note. All writing is cursive except for 2 instances of the word "love" which are printed.
I'm still seeing "Stan" or it could be "Steve" or "5+am" but his n's look pretty standard.
Dredd #450 - thank goodness we have you on the case as our resident attorney!! What I know of ME's is: The Medical Examiner/Coroner really is the one person burdened with the responsibility to decide the "manner of death" after a death investigation and s/he makes the final ruling and fills out the death certificate. But, some jurisdictions do not investigate suicides unless there is a note. Some may rule suicide just because of a note? The rules in each jurisdiction are different. Any way of knowing the rules for this jurisdiction? A call? Or getting the DCert and case file?
COMMENT #451 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/12/2005 @ 11:06 am PT...
HOLY SHIT! BREAKTHROUGH!
Remember that Lemme's boss "Robert Clift" said Lemme called him from a "payphone" at the "Pay Fast Track" near I-10 and Highway 19 and left a message at 6:20am on 6/30/2003?
Well, I just called the 850-997-3847 number.
**It is in fact a phone INSIDE a Payday Loan business.**
I spoke to an employee there and she said their hours are from 10am to 6pm on weekdays and that it has been that way since they first opened!
I asked her if it would be possible for someone to make a call from that phone number at 6:20am on a weekday. She said "No way. Nobody is even here that early. It would have to be a manager."
Is anyone getting this? Robert Lemme made his last attempted contact from a INSIDE a payday loan center BEFORE business hours.
Was he gathering blackmail money? Drug money?
What the hell was he doing INSIDE a payday loan place before he commits suicide?
COMMENT #452 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/12/2005 @ 11:28 am PT...
Keep in mind, it would also mean he was inside the payday loan business WITH a manager, long before business hours.
IMO, this is the strangest set of circumstances in this case so far.
COMMENT #453 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/12/2005 @ 12:03 pm PT...
Sorry for not consolidating my posts better, but I thought I should mention that the area code 850 is for Tallahassee, Pensacola, Panama City.
Tampa is 813, so Thomas W. Case is likely irrelevant to this.
COMMENT #454 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/12/2005 @ 12:07 pm PT...
Good ground work Fred! We are in sore need of information just like yours!
When I woke up this morning, still hazy, I had in my mind a sheet of paper with the timeline. In this vision there was a box around two items. The 6:15am call to Clift and the wife's report of his leaving the house at 5:15. In a box. I am beginning to believe neither event actually happened - or at least Clifts events.
It is a HOLY BREAKTHROUGH BATMAN! Because:
Alternative Scenario:
Your evidence shows that Lemme couldn't have made that phone call. It also shows that Clift knows that location (but not the hours). And that Clift made this up. This is the first lie that has been caught. It's not just gross error like we've been dealing with...
Now to go dig up his testimony again...
COMMENT #455 [Permalink]
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american woman
said on 3/12/2005 @ 12:07 pm PT...
Curiouser, yeah there is Clint's site. Wish he had more time to update it though. And I wish Brad had a twin so one of them could get some rest .
Security latch transcription coming up ... hang on.
COMMENT #456 [Permalink]
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american woman
said on 3/12/2005 @ 12:28 pm PT...
The following is a from Clint Curtis's book, Just A Fly On The Wall. It's about his experiment with the door latch in room #132. Here you go:
[begin]
The basis of the police investigators conclusions of suicide were based in a good part on the fact that the security latch was locked. They must have assumed that if the latch was locked and the windows were locked then no one left the room after the suicide. This is actually completely incorrect. Any motel door that can be accessed without physically breaking it down can be rigged externally to appear as though it was locked on the inside.
As young kids, we used to do just that to the poor maids that would leave their doors propped open as they made their rounds. Chain latches are difficult but the security bars are surprising easy. Motel rooms allow for a tool that can be inserted when the door is closed. It puts pressure on the bar and causes it to unlock. In order to allow this tool to be inserted, the doors are constructed so that a small 1/8th inch gap exists throughout the doorframe. This gap is more than enough to close the security bar from outside the door. I personally tested and confirmed that the door on room 132 can be easily closed in less than a second using the following method.
From inside the room, attach a length of fishing line to the bar of the security latch approximately inch from the hinge. Position the latch so that it is pointed straight out into the room as close to the door as possible without obstructing it's closing. As the door is shutting, pull on the fishing line from outside the door. Make sure you have someone in the room to let you back in, because the security bar will engage instantly. It works every time.
Don't close the door completely, so that after engaging the security lock you can reopen the door. The security latch will allow you enough room to easily remove the fishing line and any evidence that the door has been closed from the outside. If you tie the fishing line as a slip knot and hold both side while closing the door you can then easily release the secure side of the string and then just pull the line free without cutting it.
[end]
He includes a photo. But hopefully the above gives you what you were looking for.
COMMENT #457 [Permalink]
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american woman
said on 3/12/2005 @ 12:33 pm PT...
Curiouser, you can get it on Amazon.com.
COMMENT #458 [Permalink]
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Cole...
said on 3/12/2005 @ 12:40 pm PT...
Another comment-if I may.
From the pictures and the bathroom floor plan schematic the body was at the wall end of the tub---where the tub hardware goes.
rather than at the slope end.
In other words Lemme had to await a slow exsanguinating death while trying to lie back against the valves and fillspout. At some point it would be reasonable to think he would spin around and be able to recline to a position of comfort.
Yet if he was somewhat incapacitated and had to be proped then he would be as he was found. If cause of death needed to be 'blood loss' then he had to be proped otherwise he would slide down and die of drowning. Virtually impossible for an adult to drown himself in a tub.
COMMENT #459 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/12/2005 @ 12:50 pm PT...
COMMENT #460 [Permalink]
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american woman
said on 3/12/2005 @ 12:56 pm PT...
Hey Curiouser, Did I miss something? Down what path are you taking us with this Cann thing?
COMMENT #461 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/12/2005 @ 1:09 pm PT...
Hi Cole, on the drawing I see the thicker side of the tub behind his back and the thinner side of the tub with a little black dot drawn (probably the drain) by his feet. To me anyway, it looks like there is no hardware behind his back.
Back on Lemme's note: If he were saying the first sentence out loud, "I love my family," with an emphasis on "family," it might indicate that "friends" are not included.
Didn't mean to say earlier #459 that Clift lied, only that he may have lied. Looks that way. Looks like he may still be at FDOT afterall.
COMMENT #462 [Permalink]
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billy
said on 3/12/2005 @ 1:24 pm PT...
It seems odd to me that though there is blood on the razor blade there is almost no blood around it, and the blood on it doesn't look like it got there from somebody holding it, more like it dripped on when the blade was lying somewhere else.
but I know nothing about this forensic stuff, and I guess the detective would have spotted it if it was something suspicious.
which makes me wonder - if poor Mr. Lemme's death is suspect, how many and which people would have to be in on the 'conspiracy'? too many to be plausible?
COMMENT #463 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/12/2005 @ 1:44 pm PT...
Concerning the razor blade, notice where the shower curtain is in photo # DSCF0014.JPG
Now look at the location of the razor blade far to the left of the edge of the shower curtain in photo DSCF0013.JPG
That doesn't seem like the "natural" place to place the blade, assuming he used his right hand. It would have been very difficult for him to use his left hand because there was almost no blood being pumped to it - his main artery was lacerated - his hand would be numb.
COMMENT #464 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/12/2005 @ 1:45 pm PT...
COMMENT #452
...Snoopy said
I agree with RLM #444 about the parties who are victims of circumstances. The parties who had real, timely motives to quiet Mr. Lemme were the YEI owners and Rep. Feeney. Of course these individuals didn't do the crime themselves, but it is entirely plausible they conspired to have the job taken care of by professionals.
Remember, though, that Lemme had already contacted Curtis about this going "all the way to the top". Jeb Bush? NASA? CIA? White House? This could have been way beyond the Feeney & Yang Keystoners.
COMMENT #457
...Fred said
Robert Lemme made his last attempted contact from a INSIDE a payday loan center BEFORE business hours.
Why do we believe that Lemme called anyone? Do we have actual phone records? Sorry, I must have missed that. I DO NOT trust Robert Clift's nor Mary Ann Lemme's claims until I see proof. Your research just gave me another reason to trust neither of those two.
As I said earlier, the only 'evidence' we have that Lemme even made it home on the night of the 29th is the claims of his wife. Not good enough. And, assuming for just a second that the Knights Inn receipt was actually for the night of the 30th (and not the 29th), isn't it quite a coincidence that Mrs. Lemme's Affidavit carefully states that she got home at the precise time that her husband was checking into an out-of-state fleabag motel to commit suicide? Again, not good enough.
As for how long it took Lemme to bleed: We seem to keep assuming the belt was used as a tourniquet. But I think it may explain the bruise on Lemme's neck, and might have been used to keep him only semi-conscious so that he'd die like a live person but less likely to thrash about as he drained. At some point during that process it seems probable that his heart gave out and the belt could just be unfastned from his neck and left on the towel.
Again, I'm not trying to frame a widow, but neither am I going to let presumptions frame the facts.
COMMENT #465 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/12/2005 @ 2:09 pm PT...
OK, what if he's not laying down when the cuts are made. What if he's standing in the shower getting his pants and his shirt wet? He still has to cut himself because of fingerprints. So let's say he does the tourniquet as requested, cuts himself (very neatly) as requested, places the blade down as requested, undoes the tourniquet, tosses the belt on the towel. Some blood hits the towel only during the tossing of the belt. Perhaps they make him clean up anything unusual with the cloth. He stands until he can't anymore. The shower is turned off. He lays down in the tub. And dies. The shower would also hide any noises. They wouldn't have left him alone to do it on his own. But, why wouldn't he have yelled for help? Maybe the bruise around his neck (which may also be livor mortis) could have been part of the "silencing" mechanism. Tape?
COMMENT #466 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/12/2005 @ 2:20 pm PT...
Hey y'all! I've been taking a long, much needed break from the computer, but this story I've been following since around July of '04 when I first read Clint Curtis' story on his website, and I'm convinced that FDOT, Feeney & YEI are up to lots of no-good.
I've been enjoying all the detective work y'all are doing! It's taken a couple of days to read all the posts - whew.
In looking at all this I see a red flag regarding Lemme's heart condition and the medicine. I wonder what his doctor would say about the effects of Lemme not taking his meds?? If that would cause his death, why not just go away for a few days on a camping trip and stop the meds? That way the Mrs. would get insurance money, eh? By committing suicide, she gets nothing.
Hmmm.
COMMENT #467 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/12/2005 @ 2:24 pm PT...
If Lemme was already recently dead from trauma that caused his heart to fail (such as having his neck held tightly in a belt), his blood wouldn't have splattered as it would have were he alive, right? That accounts for the neatness of the splattering.
I would presume it's fairly easy to use an unconscious person's own hand to hold a blade and make neat cuts on themself, accounting for fingerprints.
(Also, as for how things are laid out nice and neat, isn't that SOP for military suicides? At least from what I've seen in the movies.)
Also, who says he bought the "water" or "coffee"? Maybe a trusted source provided them? Maybe a captor did? Were either the cup or the bottle tested for any chemicals that might have help render Lemme unconscious?
COMMENT #468 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/12/2005 @ 2:28 pm PT...
From Curiouser#464:
"Why do we believe that Lemme called anyone? Do we have actual phone records? Sorry, I must have missed that. I DO NOT trust Robert Clift's nor Mary Ann Lemme's claims until I see proof. Your research just gave me another reason to trust neither of those two."
I agree with you completely. There are 2 major factual pieces of evidence that completely contradict 2 major points of testimony for the official story. They are:
1) Mrs. Lemme claims she last saw here husband at 5:15am on 6/30/2003. CONTRADICTION: King-Inn Check-In 6:45pm 6/29/03 receipt and Check-Out 6:54am 6/30/03 receipt signed by Mr. Lemme. Also, eye witness testimony places Lemme's car as being at the King-Inn since late Sunday afternoon.
2) Robert Clift claims he received a voice mail from Lemme at 6:20am calling from a phone at "Pay Fast Track" (997-3847). CONTRADICTION: The phone that number is assigned to is physically located INSIDE a business that doesn't open until 10:00am. Lemme could not have made that phone call.
So, where does that leave us? Well, together, they support the validity of the dates and times on the check out receipts. You see, if Lemme DID NOT make that phone call at 6:20am on 6/30 to his boss, then that means it is IN FACT possible that Lemme did sign out from the King Inn at 6:54am on 6/30. Previously, if Lemme had made that phone call from that location, then it would have been impossible for him to drive that distance in 34 minutes to check-out on 6/30 - which would have prooved that the receipts were wrong. But that has not happened, so the dates on the receipts could still be right.
So far, there is no evidence, only testimony that contradicts the Check In/Out receipts. More importantly, one of those testimonies has been proven wrong. This is getting interesting...because if the veracity of Clift's testimony is called into question, then what else?
COMMENT #469 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/12/2005 @ 2:31 pm PT...
And here's another observation:
Was the entry key card ever identified? Who has the key card? Did the thugs accidentally forget to leave it there? Or was he made to check out, return the card, go back to the room. But then, the staff would have mentioned that right? And, if unacompanied he could have made a run for it.
So here's the list of missing evidence:
Coffee cup (seen in photo, not in drawing)
Water bottle (seen in photo, not in drawing)
Trash can (not seen in photo, drawing, or report)
Key card (not seen in photo, drawing?, or report)
Credit/bank card (not seen in photo, in wallet?)
(perhaps Toothbrush, etc.)
(box of blades - in report, not in photo, in drawing?)
Am I missing anything?
P.S. Going to dinner and movies - you guys and gals are on your own for hitting the 500th post (unless I get back in time But then, I plan on having slightly more than my fair share of wine...slightly.
COMMENT #470 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/12/2005 @ 2:32 pm PT...
Re: Fred - #468
Wouldn't the phone company have a record of a call from that INSIDE phone at "Pay Fast Track" number *997-3847* going to Clift?
COMMENT #471 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/12/2005 @ 2:39 pm PT...
You know what I don't like about this whole story? It's that the police changed some facts to fit the story. You can't do that! You are supposed to examine all facts and if there are any contradictions, you must validate/confirm which ones are wrong. They never did this with:
1) The receipts
2) Clift's phone claim
3) His wife's testimony-They should have interviewed others Lemme knew as to what his where abouts were on Sunday (June 29)
4) The testimony of the King-Inn clerk: first she says Lemme hadn't checked out. Then they find a check out receipt in his room.
5) His watch was stopped at 12:34 on June 30 - no explanation.
6) No inquiry was documented as to requesting video tapes from the King-Inn by the police, but they do so with the convenience store near the Inn.
7) The obvious discoloration on Lemme's neck in 2 photos - no autopsy?
8) The suspicious reason as to why Page 1 of the Cornor's death investigation report that contains the "cause of death" is unreadable, yet Page 2 is perfectly fine.
9) what else am i missing?
You see, these all seem like minor details, but taken together they are huge! Many suicides have been turned into homocides on such details. This whole thing stinks.
COMMENT #472 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/12/2005 @ 2:45 pm PT...
Fred, your suggestion that Lemme could have checked in and out on Sunday is definintely worth considering, and only make sense if Mrs. Lemme was lying when she said he left early on the 30th.
BTW, I've had some of my days wrong in previous posts (#437). Sorry.
However, I just noticed this as well from the Det. Eugene Bell, Jr.'s 'Supplemental Detective Report Report' at http://insider-magazine.com/ValdostaPD.html:
"On July 1, 2003 at approximately 1347 hours, I spoke with an occupant of room #234. The individual identified himself as Michael Davis, Age: 29 of [crossed out], Meigs, Georgia. He was a black male. Palmer gave me a brief verbal statement, claiming that he had never actually seen Raymond Lemme. He claimed to have seen Lemme's vehicle parked in the parking area adjacent to room #132 since the previous Sunday afternoon (June 30, 2003) at approximately 1530 hours. Palmer told me that he had not seen or heard any strange occurrences."
First, June 30, 2003 was a MONDAY, not a Sunday!
Second, 3:30pm is 1hr 30mins before Lemme "checked in".
Third, there were two black males seen at the scene by Judy and Heather Gregory on Tuesday July 1 between 7:30~8:00am --- but no mention if either could identify Michael Davis as one of the men they spotted. Granted, the report suggests that the Gregory's room was next to Davis', but that doesn't mean that they had seen each other at any point.
(Ahat Room #234 still bugs me as regards to the time on Lemme's watch.)
In any case, this shows the sloppiness of the Valdosta PD investigation/paperwork.
COMMENT #473 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/12/2005 @ 2:47 pm PT...
CORRECTION tp #472: "checked in ON SUNDAY and out on MONDAY". Sorry about that. Details matter.
COMMENT #474 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/12/2005 @ 2:50 pm PT...
Kira #470 -
That's a good question. Supposedly, the FDOT (Lemme's boss), had an officer check that and that's how they concluded the source of the call.
However, IF that call was made, even if it was Lemme, that raises MORE questions than it does answers.
The question would be HOW/WHY was Lemme granted access to a payday loan business and such early hours? It suggests that Lemme knew the owner/manager. That suggests a special relationship. Lemme having a special relationship with the owner of a payday loan business?
At worst it reeks of some form of corruption (is the payday loan place laundrying money? is Lemme involved?). At it's mildest, it would suggest that Lemme was paying off some major debt to a payday loan owner that would be more than happy to accept the money from Lemme and open early. So maybe Lemme was tieing up loose ends before he kills himself. WOULDN'T the Police want to investigate ANY of those possiblilties (extortion, corruption, confirmation of suicide motive)?
Either these investigators are Amateurs or total Pros.
COMMENT #475 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/12/2005 @ 2:52 pm PT...
BTW (I can't believe I keep missing things like this and, no, I'm not trying to be Ms. 500) WHO IS PALMER?
"Palmer told me that he had not seen or heard any strange occurrences."
Chili Palmer? Maybe I just need more sleep than I got, but is there a "Palmer" mentioned elsewhere?
COMMENT #476 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/12/2005 @ 2:58 pm PT...
Snoopy #452 -
Stent implant cards are like diabetic bracelets or penicillin sensitivity necklaces, etc. Some medical procedures are dangerous if you have a stent, which is metal and can cause harm is an MRI, say, is administered in ignorance. My mother carries hers around with her at all times.
COMMENT #477 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/12/2005 @ 3:10 pm PT...
Czaragorn #454 -
Hi there! I was just going to post a similar message, except MY view is a paradise of deep new snow over a very boreal landscape of spruces and firs, under a post-storm abalone-shell sky. Breathtaking.
Yes, we're just 8 days from the equinox. But OUR snowdrops will have to lose about two feet of bedclothes before they make their appearance!
Old Prague is a truly lovely city. Rural coastal Maine is heaven, and a balm to the aching heart. I just am a bit impatient for the return of mobility!
COMMENT #478 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/12/2005 @ 3:15 pm PT...
Curiouser,
Can you provide a link to that "Palmer" document?
But I'm unclear about the following. Can someone help clarify/confirm?:
From this report: http://insider-magazine.com/stories/12.jpg
The hotel clerk, Sabita Vallait, is stated in the report that she told Lemme, "...that he would have to be out of the hotel room early due to the fact that he had checked in early on the previous night [June 30]."
So, checking in at 6:45pm is considered early? What, compared to 7:00? So if you check-in before 7:00 you must check out the following day before 11:00? If you check in after 7PM, then you get to stay until Noon, 1, 2?
I don't trust this hotel clerk because she was wrong about the part of him not checking out. He did!
COMMENT #479 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/12/2005 @ 3:16 pm PT...
I'm going to try to kill the BOLD. Did that work?
COMMENT #480 [Permalink]
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american woman
said on 3/12/2005 @ 3:25 pm PT...
Re Palmer: Original here.
"Palmer" seems to come as a witness out of nowhere. Looks like an oversight by the investigator.
COMMENT #481 [Permalink]
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Bold Killer
said on 3/12/2005 @ 3:29 pm PT...
COMMENT #482 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/12/2005 @ 3:30 pm PT...
Help, someone. Curiouser must have forgotten to close out his Bold lines! Now we're ALL overly emphatic!!
COMMENT #483 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/12/2005 @ 3:32 pm PT...
Sheesh. I hoped that works, because I think the bold is my fault. Sorry!
The only way the "checked in early" thing would fit is if this is one of those "rent by the hour/half day" deals. You know the kind I mean.
COMMENT #484 [Permalink]
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BK
said on 3/12/2005 @ 3:33 pm PT...
COMMENT #485 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/12/2005 @ 3:35 pm PT...
If Michael Davis is Unidentified Black Man In The Parking Lot #1, could Palmer be UBMITPL #2?
(again, I'm truly sorry about the bold error I made!)
COMMENT #486 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/12/2005 @ 3:38 pm PT...
I read some more Georgia law about the medical examiner's inquiry.
45-16-27.
"(a) Coroners shall require an inquest to be conducted in their respective counties as follows:
(1) When any person dies under any circumstances specified in paragraphs (1) through (8) of subsection (a) of Code Section 45-16-24; provided, however, that an inquest is not required to be held, although the coroner is authorized to hold an inquest, under the following circumstances:
(A) When upon the completion of the medical examiner´s inquiry the peace officer in charge and the medical examiner are satisfied that, even though death resulted from violence, no foul play was involved. In this event, the peace officer in charge and the medical examiner shall make a written report of their investigation and findings to the division as set forth in Code Section 45-16-32 and upon their recommendation, the coroner shall make and file a proper death certificate;
(B) When there is sufficient evidence to establish the cause and manner of death, even though the medical examiner´s inquiry revealed that death resulted from foul play;
(C) When no demand for an inquest is made within 30 days after the filing of the death certificate. However, if such demand is made by the party or parties affected by the death, the coroner is authorized to hold the inquest;" (bold added)
The bottom line is that the "police officer in charge" and "the medical examiner" both and together decided that "no foul play was involved".
But that is not the end of if, because any "party or parties affected by the death" can demand the inquest within 30 days of the filing of the death certificate.
That means relevant family members, and the FDOT. That is probably why it was closed after being opened ... no one demanded the inquest.
An inquest would have been before a jury like a regular trial and an autopsy would have been normal.
So it looks like there is official cover up.
COMMENT #487 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/12/2005 @ 3:44 pm PT...
AW may know more from Clint's book, but who besides Ray's brother thought foul play might be involved?
Also, what is the name of Ray's daughter? Is it Theresa?
Gotta go for now, but this thing is getting curiouser & curiouser.
COMMENT #488 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/12/2005 @ 3:56 pm PT...
AM #480,
So you mean this particular document.
That is strange...and good suggestion Curiouser #485. The officer is unwittingly naming 2 seperate occupants in room #234. One named Michael Davis and some other person named Palmer that he mentions twice.
You know, these cops and investigators are a disgrace to detective work. They have screwed up so many facts in this case that it's very difficult to agree on anything other than the fact that Lemme is dead.
Who done it? The maid in the poolroom with the chlorine tablets? Where the hell is Scully and Moulder when you need them?
COMMENT #489 [Permalink]
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NeverSleepAgain
said on 3/12/2005 @ 4:01 pm PT...
Lemme's last hours
Important: Motel receipt dates and times are correct and are intentionally left conspicuously at scene to confuse timeline. Motel receipt dates/times are provided by two independent 3rd parties who must maintain correct timestamps to operate as a business. Motel check-in by central motel franchise booking system. Motel check-out by credit card provider and can be verified by issuing bank and card company with the information visible on the receipt.
Important: Sgt Bell confuses at least one date in his report. "He claimed to have seen Lemme's vehicle parked in the parking area adjacent room #132 since the previous Sunday afternoon (June 30, 2003) at aproximately 1530 hours." Sunday was June 29th in 2003! Since the report was written 17 days later, other dates may potentially be off by one day. To construct this timeline, two dates were adjusted from Sgt Bell's report by subtracting one day. These are marked as [BELLADJ]. The entire timeline can stand without these entries but makes more sense with them.
Except for instances of speculation (prefixed by SPEC:), everything from the timeline is from the police reports here:
http://insider-magazine.com/ValdostaPD.html
This timeline assumes the documentation and statements are generally accurate, the handwriting is Lemme's, and that the inconsistencies noted are due to human error, not conspiracy. (The recent "payphone" discovery is somewhat unusual though.)
Jun 29=Sun, Jun 30=Mon, Jul 1=Tue
SUNDAY
======
SPEC: The setup: Lemme contacted (paged?) by someone wishing to provide critical information for his investigation. Source wishes to remain anonymous and transfer information in a specific public, "neutral" location. Need a list of locations/witness for Lemme on June 29th.
29 June - 1530 (approx) [BELLADJ]
Occupant #234 sees Lemme's vehicle parked since this time Sunday
29 June - 1844
Motel check-in
SPEC: Motel rented as a "drop", no intention to stay, returns home after leaving a key in a prearranged place. Possibly a truck stop like Fast Track Foods
MONDAY
======
30 June - 0515 (approx)
Left home one hour early to go to work said he would call wife later
SPEC: Return to motel to retrieve "package"
30 June - between 0615 and 0620 (approx)
Left message for supervisor supposedly from "payphone" 850 997-3845. Recent posts and phone directory indicate this is the store phone # and not a payphone #!
SPEC: May be retrieving key sometime in here unless duplicate keys were requested on check-in
SPEC: Suspicious at some point, sets time on watch to 1234, pulls stem before arrival at mote
30 June - 0654
Signed motel checkout (should physically be at checkout counter for this). Hotel would have card # on file from check-in so wallet/card would not be required.
30 June - 0730 to 0800 (approx) [BELLADJ]
Occupant #236 noticed 3 suspicious men (2 black, 1 white) across from room 132
SPEC: The trap: Retrieved "package", checked out of motel, surprised when attempting to leave by "two (2) black males"
30 June - between 0654 and 1100
Checks or "checked" back into motel possibly by calling from motel room after reentering with spare or copied key and extending stay. This explains the "early check-in" claim by motel (Villait) since normal check-in time is actually 2:00pm
30 June - 0810
Time on suicide note
SPEC: Coerced to write note, underlined words may be an attempt at covert communication, asphyxiated with plastic bag (or another technique that leaves minimal evidence), body and belongings arranged, room swept, door latched with special tool on way out; 'do no disturb' left on the door.
http://www.lockjockey.com/howworks.htm
SPEC: Lemme most likely deceased before 1100 to avoid accidental discovery by housekeeper.
30 June - 1100 to 1400
When room service would occur. Room skipped since it was marked as occupied on the housekeeper's room sheet and had a "do not disturb" sign
30 June 03 - 1845+
Wife files missing persons report.
SPEC: Something may have scared wife. Changes sentence in affidavit "...saying he would be late because he had to..." crossing out "had to" and continuing "said something came up & he would call later." "Had to" what? "had to meet someone"? "Had to pick something up"?
TUESDAY
=======
01 July - 1100
Checkout time (for 2nd day at motel)
01 July - 1105
Housekeeper informed that 132 had not checked out
01 July - 1130
Housekeeper attempts again
01 July - 1306
Police arrive and open door. Body found in "Locked Room Mystery".
COMMENT #490 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 3/12/2005 @ 4:11 pm PT...
Thinking aloud:
Check-in clerk said she told customer that check-out was at 11am.Did she ID Lemme as same person who checked in, by photo of body.
Did Lemme arrange a meeting at the motel
2 guys seen by young girl in carpark (darkish skinned) WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE they were said to be quite large guys , muscles not fat by descriptions – wet work specialists?
3 guys seen ½ hour later in carpark(2d/s 1 possible white )by other witness IS THE THIRD MAN LEMME ?
Have all witnesses at the motel been showed a photograph of Lemme ?
egress –did rooms have ceiling hatch/panels with a “crawl space”.
reverse door unlatching tool to lock from outside ,these people are Professionals ,no problem.
How many places that sold take away coffee are in the area and how many stores that may sell razor blades , did Lemme use this type of blade normally ,ask brother maybe.
About the watch stopping from water , wasn’t the bath empty ,of water at least ?
Odd that room 234 was directly above 132 and tenanted (I’d have spread the guest out ) this person may be helpful if he could be tracked down.
Floyd has “moved on” has any other attending officers “moved on”?
Is it normal to remove a page out of a diary as evidence rather than take the whole diary?
The ROPE with dark stains on it in the trunk of his car , a piece of rope in the room?
Further :the body seems "propped up" quite un-natural unless it is a 3/4 bath and his feet are pushed in the other end of the bath
The blood on the towel on the floor looks un-natural for self-administrated cuts ,the main pattern on the towel is so close to the wall that I think that the arm would have to be "held and twisted back" in order for the blood to be so close to the wall.
COMMENT #491 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/12/2005 @ 4:12 pm PT...
Rodney Bryan of the Medical Examiner's Office decided on July 2, 2003, the next day after the dead body was discovered, not to do an autopsy, based upon what Det. Floyd and Det. Spencer told him (Valdosta Police Department, Detective Report, by Det. Craig Spencer).
So ... barely 24 hours and less than two working days into the investigation they had decided no foul play had occurred. Not good.
This means that everything after that time is essentially irrelevant and seems like fluff to make it look like they were more interested in really looking into foul play potential than they actually were.
And the more work done after that decision, the more it looks bad.
I mean they were still gathering "evidence" for the file two weeks later, and re-opened it months later ... after deciding the next day (July 2) no foul play took place so no autopsy was needed?
I mean when you know there was no foul play why keep looking for foul play?
Just to fluff the record?
COMMENT #492 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/12/2005 @ 4:15 pm PT...
And for the record, here is what I can make out from the Coronor's Report concerning the "cause of death".
Source document: http://insider-magazine.com/stories/22.jpg
(A '?' means I can't tell what is going on. A '_' means a space.):
CAUSE_OF_DEATH_LISTED_ON_?/?
????FE_FORCE:_????M?_??K_LEFT_??K
HOW_?????????EN?????_?_?????_WITH_A_ RAZOR_BLADE
So how's that for a crappy copy of a Cornor's report?
COMMENT #493 [Permalink]
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Fred
said on 3/12/2005 @ 4:38 pm PT...
NSA (Never Sleep Again, clever) #489 -
Excellent work on the timeline and speculations.
You just convinced me to set up a timeline on a seperate webpage so we can reference it/modify it there, and leave comments here.
COMMENT #494 [Permalink]
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cheryl
said on 3/12/2005 @ 4:51 pm PT...
(Drum roll.......) Who will hit the magic 500? Winner will receive an official Brad Blog t-shirt. (If we had Brad Blog t-shirts)
COMMENT #495 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/12/2005 @ 5:08 pm PT...
NeverSleepAgain #489 The tool you refer to is designed to UNlock the nite latch, rather than to lock it. Clint Curtis did a test on the actual room nite latch and fish-line will lock it. Your tool is like what the police used to UNlock it.
As to:
"29 June - 1844
Motel check-in
SPEC: Motel rented as a "drop", no intention to stay, returns home after leaving a key in a prearranged place. Possibly a truck stop like Fast Track Foods"
The "returns home" part is dependent on the spouse not being implicated and her testimony being true. It could be or could not be.
The entire Lemme episode is based upon an investigation of government contracts and certain politicians and election fraud scenarios.
The wife works for a major lawfirm with political connections that does government contract work and election law matters.
And the:
"30 June - between 0615 and 0620 (approx)
Left message for supervisor supposedly from "payphone" 850 997-3845. Recent posts and phone directory indicate this is the store phone # and not a payphone #!"
Someone called that number to check it and an employee there said they are not open at that time. So either he met a manager there or it is a bogus piece of info given by Clift.
Other than that, and interesting scenario.
A more valid scenario must have the contingency branches in it (If "A" happened then "5" else if "B" happened then "6". There are a host of contingencies that are not resolved and other timeline items that are resolved).
COMMENT #496 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/12/2005 @ 5:24 pm PT...
Correction to my post #491
It should read:
"Rodney Bryan of the Medical Examiner's Office decided on July 1, 2003, the next day after the dead body was discovered, not to do an autopsy, based upon what Det. Floyd and Det. Spencer told him (Valdosta Police Department, Detective Report, by Det. Craig Spencer)."
NOTE: Timeline scenarios should have the OFFICIAL ACTS in them, and contingency factual scenarios as well.
For instance, there should be a July 1, 2003, at approx 1609 hours entry in the timeline showing when the OFFICIAL DETERMINATION had been made that NO FOUL PLAY had occurred.
That is because we are focusing on official negligence, misconduct, or cover up here in this thread too.
COMMENT #497 [Permalink]
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american woman
said on 3/12/2005 @ 5:31 pm PT...
Fred, there is a better copy of the Coroner's report in Curtis' book. Hang on and I'll type it up.
COMMENT #498 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/12/2005 @ 5:43 pm PT...
American Woman #497>/u>
The "Valdosta Police Department, Detective Report, by Det. Craig Spencer" has the info typed out in it.
COMMENT #499 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/12/2005 @ 5:46 pm PT...
COMMENT #500 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/12/2005 @ 5:50 pm PT...
American Woman #497
The "Valdosta Police Department, Detective Report, by Det. Craig Spencer" has the info typed out in it.
COMMENT #501 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/12/2005 @ 5:57 pm PT...
Might have missed this in the 498 posts, but did anyone ever determine exactly what type of watch Lemme had? Was it a wind-up, a quartz, or other?
Also, why set it for 12:34 to point to room 234 - why not set it for 2:34?
COMMENT #502 [Permalink]
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american woman
said on 3/12/2005 @ 6:09 pm PT...
Here is my transcription of the Georgia Coroner's Death Investigation Report as reproduced in Clint Curtis' book. The report is almost all in caps, including the typed answers, so I took some liberties there for legibility. I've bolded the text that appears to be the form so that it can be distinguised from the part that is filled in.
[BEGIN REPORT]
CORONER'S DEATH INVESTIGATION REPORT
CASE NUMBER: 7-2-03
NOTIFICATION DATE: 7-01-03
NOTIFICATION TIME: 13:56
NOTIFIER'S AGENCY: SHELIA HANER, DISPATCH/911
CITY INCIDENT OCCURED: Valdosta
COUNTY: Lowndes
INVESTIGATING OFFICER & AGENCY:
Det. Craig Spencer/Valdosta Police Dept.
CONCERNING THE DECEDENT
Name: Raymond Camillo Lemme
Age: 56
Race: White
Sex: Male
Who Pronounced Death: Charles Exum/ Coroner
Date Pronounced: July 1, 2003
Time Pronounced: 14:15
Type of Death: Natural
Death Witnessed: No
Person found dead by: Valdosta Police Officers at Request of Manager
Address Where Death Occurred:
Room #132, Knights Inn, 2110 West Hill Avenue
Valdosta, GA. 31601
Date/Time Body Found: July 1, 2003/Approx 13:09
Description of Circumstances: See Comments
Personal Doctor's Name/Phone#: None
Known Medications: None
Known Illnesses: None
Complaints: Found dead
Person Signing Death Certificate: Charles Exum/ Coroner
Cause of Death Listed on D/C:
SHARPE FORCE TRAUMA OF THE LEFT ARM
HOW OCCURRED; INCISED HIMSELF WITH A RAZOR BLADE
Manner of Death Listed on D/C:
Homicide:
Suicide: X
Accidental:
Natural Causes:
Undetermined:
Pending:
COMPLETE IF DECEDENT SUSTAINED INJURIES:
Date/Time of Injury: July 1, 2003/ 08:10AM
Address of Injury: Room #132, Knights Inn, 2110 West Hill Avenue, Valdosta, GA 31601
HOW INJURY OCCURRED:
Gunshot:
Sharp Force: x
Blunt Force:
Asphyxiated:
Other:
COMPLETE IF DECEDENT WAS FOUND DEAD:
Date/Time Last Known Alive: June 30, 2003/approx 18:45 He checked in Knights Inn.
COMPLETE IF CORONER ACCEPTS JURISDICTION:
Was Coroner on Scene? : Yes
Body Identified by Whom: License
Transport By: Music Funeral Services
Medical Examiner Name: A. J. Clark MD (NBJ)
Date/Time Notified: July 1, 2003
Exam Type:
None
Autopsy
External only X
TOX
Limited dissection
EXAM PLACE/DATE/TIME: Knights Inn/July 1, 2003
NEXT OF KIN NAME & ADDRESS: WIFE, MARY ANN LEMME
Personal Effects Released To: N/A
Personal Effects Released By: N/A
Date/Time of Release: N/A
Body Released To:
MUSIC FUNERAL HOME INC
VALDOSTA, GA(CORONER ROTATION)
TO BE REMOVED, JULY2, 2003 by
CULLEy & SONS FUNERAL HOME 1737 RIGGINS ROAD, TALLAHASSEE, FLA 32308
BODY RELEASED BY: CE
DATE/TIME of RELEASE: JULY 1, 2003
COMMENTS:
HELD IN COLLER AT SGMC UNTIL FLORIDA FUNERAL DIRECTOR COMES FOR HIS BODY
APPARENTLY LEFT A NOTE
HE WAS INVESTIGATOR FOR STATE OF FLORIDA, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
CORONER'S SIGNATURE AND DATE
(signed by Charles Exum dated July 2, 2003)
[END REPORT]
COMMENT #503 [Permalink]
...
american woman
said on 3/12/2005 @ 6:20 pm PT...
Dredd, I think Fred wanted to see what was on the Coroner's report. In anycase, there it is.
COMMENT #504 [Permalink]
...
Winter Patriot
said on 3/12/2005 @ 6:25 pm PT...
woo-hoo! #500 for Dredd.
The value of Persistence is shown again
The value of the Submit button is shown again too.
Dredd also had #498 and #499!
COMMENT #505 [Permalink]
...
Peggy
said on 3/12/2005 @ 6:50 pm PT...
We need to know exactly where the payphone was located in July 2003. The payphone may have originally been located outside the Loan company, and moved inside after July 2003. Also, there may be an ATM machine and payphone located inside the Loan company building, but accessible 24 hours a day.
Has Mrs. Lemme remarried? What is her CURRENT relationship, if any, with Mr. Clift. On what date and why did Mr. Clift leave the FDOT?
I like the speculation that Mr. Lemme went to pick up something early Monday morning before work. He didn't want to tell Clift why he would be late for work! If he set up the motel room Sunday evening, then he must have had spoken with his contact during the day on Sunday. What did he do all day on Sunday? Was he home? Who did he speak with? I would find it weird if he didn't tell his wife anything about his work - after all those years of marriage? Especially considering who she worked for...Didn't they trade ideas and info?
Thanks everyone.
COMMENT #506 [Permalink]
...
IrishGuy
said on 3/12/2005 @ 7:15 pm PT...
Observation
If you are going to commit suicide by slashing your wrists, would you get into a bath with no water and your clothes on?
It is "standard operational procedure" for suicides to actually get into a hot bath to speed up the death process?
Would you want to prolong dying, if killing yourself was your objective?
COMMENT #507 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/12/2005 @ 7:49 pm PT...
COMMENT #490
...mmiixx said
Have all witnesses at the motel been showed a photograph of Lemme ?
The Bell report says: "I asked Gregory if she ever saw Raymond Lemme. She claimed to have never have seen him to her knowledge."
Doesn't mention if she was shown photo or just given a description.
mmiixx also said: Floyd has “moved on” has any other attending officers “moved on”?
Floyd is working at Valdosta Technical College teaching other people to be bumbling idiots.
COMMENT #495
...Dredd said
Someone called that number to check it and an employee there said they are not open at that time. So either he met a manager there or it is a bogus piece of info given by Clift.
In trying to think of reasons why Lemme might even be trying to get advanced money, I wondered if the speculated "source" he might have been going to meet was charging him for the info. Which could explain the whole drop/return scenario.
Why not take the $ out of his bank account, though? Unless he didn't want Mrs. Lemme knowing about it. Too speculative to go further. Easier to simply discount what Mr. Clift said.
COMMENT #508 [Permalink]
...
Snoopy
said on 3/12/2005 @ 7:50 pm PT...
Hi Curiouser #487,
Mr. Lemme's daughter's name at the time was Audrey Lyn Lemme. Audrey's fiancee at the time was Mark Sampson. Audrey and Mark went ahead with their wedding after Mr. Lemme's death later in 2003. Audrey and Mark were married on September 27th in Quincy, Florida.
Mr. Lemme also had a sister, Gail (Lemme) Giancola who lived in Gulf Breeze, Florida with her husband Gary. Mr. Lemme's brother's name is Wayne whose wife is Ursula. They also live in Tallahassee. Seems like there was the opportunity for familial support nearby.
Mr. and Mrs. Lemme bought a townhouse in Tallahassee just 6 weeks before his death. For someone who was accused of being suicidal, Mr. Lemme sure seemed to be looking ahead.
Mrs. Lemme bought a substantial home in Tallahassee 9 months after Mr. Lemme's death. She still owns the townhouse too. Her real estate holdings in Leon County are worth several hundred thousand dollars.
COMMENT #509 [Permalink]
...
cheryl
said on 3/12/2005 @ 7:54 pm PT...
Oh Dredd,
You deliberately tried to get post #500! You win the (fictional) t-shirt!!!!
COMMENT #510 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/12/2005 @ 7:55 pm PT...
AW #502 -
You are a Saint! Thank you, thank you. And I learned 2 things.
It goes to show you that the Coroner didn't get it right with "Known medications". He had pills at the scene of the crime. The Coronor didn't seem note anything about his known heart condition. Just more mistakes, huh.
Well, as my gift, I put up a timeline that we can work with. I'm totally open to modifying it ANY WAY you guys want, as far as adding "speculations", adding "contingency branches" like Dredd suggested. I can even add a couple of you hard-corp commenters here as "admins" to the site if you like - incase I'm working or something. Here's the URL:
http://lemmetimeline.blogspot.com/
It's nothing pretty, no new facts, just bare bones for us to build upon. Waddya think?
COMMENT #511 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/12/2005 @ 7:57 pm PT...
Thanks Snoopy #508
Your comment about Mr. Lemme's life plans seems accurate.
Any idea if Wayne was the only one who thought Ray might have met with foul play?
COMMENT #512 [Permalink]
...
Snoopy
said on 3/12/2005 @ 8:00 pm PT...
Hi Peggy,
Regarding #505, Mrs. Lemme had not remarried at the time of her real estate transaction in 2004. Leon County Clerk's records indicate that she has not remarried since.
COMMENT #513 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/12/2005 @ 8:12 pm PT...
Fred, thank you (Sorry for my flub as your first commenter! Erase it if you wish!)
Allow me to post a question here that I just posted there: Did we ever find out where the phone number 850-960-6969 goes to? I think that's pretty important since it was (purportedly) the last number on Lemme's pager with the message "911").
BTW - it's not Mrs. Lemme's home nor work number, which can be found on her affidavit. Neither is it Mr. Clift's home/work number.
What is it?
COMMENT #514 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/12/2005 @ 8:12 pm PT...
#500!! Congrats Dredd!!
I'm back from the movies - I took my son to see Robots - it was great! The free creativity put into that was so invigorating! Plus, the good guys win, bad guys lose. Best animation I've ever seen.
Now then,
#489 NeverSleep, thanks for that sequence it's very helpful - I have a tough time as I am not a sequential thinker I'm a visual spatial;
#501 Kira: Bulova watch - as best I can recall;
#446 Casolaro: Yes, gas reciepts or bank/credit statement much needed. If my appliance store can dig me up a 5 year old refridge receipt so can a bank or credit company. Not that WE can get it, just that it can be gotten.
I've sent Lemme's notes to a very good friend who happens to be one of those "elite whiz kids" - an NSA linguist. He faints at talk of blood so I have to go slow.
COMMENT #515 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/12/2005 @ 8:19 pm PT...
Curiouser asked: "One question: Did we ever find out where the phone number 850-960-6969 with 911 at the end on Lemme's pager goes to? Or what time it registered?"
Well, I called the 850-960-6969 number. I got a voice mail with a man's voice: "Hi this is Dave, sorry I can't answer your call right now. Please leave me a message and I'll call you back later."
The voice software sounded like a standard cell phone company - although, do those sound different than the home voice mail services?
Does anyone have an idea of who "Dave" could be?
Anyway, the only way to confirm would be to get a hold of the owner and ask how long they've had the phone number for, and take it from there. We should not all do that though. Since I already called, it probably wouldn't be wise for me to do so again - as I can't "fake" asking for Sally or something.
COMMENT #516 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/12/2005 @ 8:26 pm PT...
Fred, thanks for taking on that task and reporting your findings.
I have no idea who Dave might be.
Maybe American Woman or somebody who owns Curtis' book does, but my guess is that whoever owned it dropped their service as soon as this all went public.
COMMENT #517 [Permalink]
...
Snoopy
said on 3/12/2005 @ 8:26 pm PT...
Let me throw out an idea to the group...
If the place was truly a payday advance/check cashing store where Mr. Lemme stopped and placed his call, could the business have Western Union services there? Perhaps he was there to pick up a wire transfer of money or a message?
Just a thought...
P.S. I'm beginning to believe that stop/call did not take place. I need to see solid proof. I'm not so confident of any FDOT testimony.
COMMENT #518 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/12/2005 @ 8:32 pm PT...
COMMENT #517
...Snoopy said
If the place was truly a payday advance/check cashing store where Mr. Lemme stopped and placed his call, could the business have Western Union services there? Perhaps he was there to pick up a wire transfer of money or a message?
That would go with the idea that the speculated "source" might have wanted $$$ for info.
But I suspects the lack of veracity in the FDOT's claims.
COMMENT #519 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/12/2005 @ 8:48 pm PT...
Concerning the Pay Fast Track location...
They say their weekday hours have always been 10:00 AM to 6:00 PM. So if Lemme did make that call, he had to be in the business with a manager or owner.
However, if he did make that call on Monday at 6:20am, and he did check out at 6:54am as the receipt says, that would have given him only 34 minutes to travel some 50+ miles to the motel from the Pay Fast Track. Possible?
I doubt it because he would have to maintain a speed of about 90mph through intersections in Monticello and Quitman, and traffic...possible, but not probable.
Of course, if he checked out on Tuesday, then one thing would have no effect on the other.
COMMENT #520 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/12/2005 @ 8:59 pm PT...
Again, Curtis' book says he tried two routes and the best time he could make it from Tallahassee to Knights Inn was 1 hr 20 mins.
See American Woman's Comments at #103 & #211.
COMMENT #521 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/12/2005 @ 9:18 pm PT...
Thanks Miss Persistant #514 regarding the watch. I still don't know what "Bulova" means in relation to whether it's a "wind-up" or not. Do you know this? Thanks.
PS glad you got to the movies - I'll have to check out Robots too, sounds like one I will enjoy!
COMMENT #522 [Permalink]
...
Peg C
said on 3/12/2005 @ 9:40 pm PT...
I'm just a surfer here - but what if Lemme was "escorted" to the Pay-Whatever place by one of those hypothetical "shady guys" with an "in" in Valdosta and a key to the place, and "encouraged" to place a call before being incapacitated by a carotid compression? Please...there are SO many ways this could have gone down and been pulled off.
COMMENT #523 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/12/2005 @ 11:50 pm PT...
COMMENT #522 Peg C said...
Please...there are SO many ways this could have gone down and been pulled off.
EXCEPT for the way the Valdosta PD have suggested. There are too many errors for their 'account' to be accurate.
-----------------------
COMMENT #485 is where I said
If Michael Davis is Unidentified Black Man In The Parking Lot #1, could Palmer be UBMITPL #2?
But there was also the THIRD man:
two (2) black males and one (1) possible white male. While she had no other description of the possible white male other than the fact that he might have been a white male [Bell's report]
So, PALMER could also be the possibly white male.
Does FTOD have a "Palmer"?
Why, yes, they do...AND HE WORKS WITH LEMME & CLIFT IN THE INSPECTOR GENERAL'S OFFICE!
http://www.dot.state.fl....el/pdf/August%202003.pdf
Team Members are James Healy, Michael Bowen, David Sparks, Raymond Lemme, Howard Greenfield, Mark Durphy, Lynn Martin, Wendell Palmer, William Geier, Kim Smith, Stephanie Guttman, Dean Goodson, Inspector General Cecil Bragg, and nominator Robert Clift.
The Inspector General's Office executed Florida government's most successful attack on vendor contract fraud, producing 15 criminal convictions and recovering $1.5 million. This team is responsible for placing 83% of individual and company names on the Department of Management Services' list of convicted vendors who are no longer eligible to compete for state business.
Just one more thing to consider.
COMMENT #524 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/12/2005 @ 11:59 pm PT...
Not only does the FDOT IG Office have a Wendell PALMER, he might be in this photo with Lemme (who is on the top right):
http://www.insider-magazine.com/IGStaffWEB.jpg
Each of those men look very "white" to me, but if Mr. Palmer had something on to somewhat conceal his identity...
?!?!?!
The mysterious mention of a "Palmer" in Det. Bell's report does not say what race "Palmer" is.
I'm not trying to claim that FDOT IG's Palmer is the same as Palmer in Det. Bell's report, but it's certainly worth considering and finding out.
Don't you think?
COMMENT #525 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/13/2005 @ 1:02 am PT...
I'm not sure we can assume that Palmer was in the same room as Michael Davis, Fred.
Det. Bell's report looks like it was heavily redacted and maybe retyped.
However, if Davis & Palmer were in the same room above Lemme, that would make even more sense about "12:34", since Davis was in Room 234.
G'night!
COMMENT #526 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/13/2005 @ 1:43 am PT...
I just want to say that I really goofed in what I said in my post #466 earlier tonight. What was I thinking? Addled I guess (must need even more time off!).
I first read about Clint Curtis and Ray Lemme either on Brad Blog or in the article written by Wayne Madsen.
Thank you Brad for all your amazing investigative journalism. You’re one of the best!
COMMENT #527 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/13/2005 @ 5:55 am PT...
Good work folks. The Palmer catch was a good lead Curiouser. A good investigator has a close working relationship with some others of his team.
This makes me wonder if the investigation is still ongoing. Gotta get the FDOT records ...
Brad is going to provide an update thread soon.
Some new requests:
Vehicle VIN and license number (cops should have added this)
Vehicle mileage records (if Lemme was being re-imbursed as employees usually are, he would keep an odometer/mileage log). This would tell us much and give some conclusions.
Phone call records to FDOT by Lemme in the timeframe involved.
Hey FDOT people reading this, get in touch with Clint Curtis or Brad and give us this info!
COMMENT #528 [Permalink]
...
Peggy
said on 3/13/2005 @ 6:16 am PT...
I am still not convinced that the payphone is NOT accessible 24 hours a day, even though the Loan Company opens at 10 am. Wouldn't a loan company have an ATM and security cameras?
The mix up with "Davis" named, and "Palmer" quoted, in the police report needs to be sorted out. Maybe the typist transcribing the notes stopped typing at a certain point on one report, (coffee break, bathroom break, end of day), and then accidently restarted typing from a different page/report.
Curiouser #524 - At least two other men in the photo would look similar to Mr. Lemme at a distance, and if you weren't paying too much attention - white, grey hair, etc.
Was one or more of Mr. Lemme's "colleagues" following him around???? Was he following them?
The name "Palmer" is just TOOOO coincidental.
If Clift and Mrs. Lemme decided to report Mr. Lemme missing during Monday evening, and before the Georgia police had contacted them, then that would indicate they knew he was investigating something serious and potentially dangerous. Would your boss phone the police in the evening if you didn't show up for work that day? Would your wife phone the police if you were late home from work and didn't phone? He was an investigator...was this a M-F, 9 to 5 desk job?
Did Mrs. Lemme "confide" in a "sympathetic" person at her own workplace what her husband was investigating? Was Mr. Lemme's ongoing investigation then reported up the ladder to Bush/Feeney/Yang?
In order for fraud to take place, you often need a person on the "inside" to enable the fraud to take place. Curtis indicated that his co-worker at FDOT was fired, and that Feeney/Yang considered her an obstacle to their objectives. If she was a conscientious employee, as Curtis depicted her, why was she fired? Perhaps there were and are still "insiders" at FDOT to assist with fraudulent business transactions and Lemme caught them. They in turn silenced him.
COMMENT #529 [Permalink]
...
Peggy
said on 3/13/2005 @ 6:27 am PT...
If at least two men in the photo (Curiouser #524) look similar to Mr. Lemme, the question is again raised whether Mr. Lemme checked in on Sunday night, or someone else using his name. So that later, if shown a photo of a deceased person, someone shown the photo by the police could see similarites between the photo of Mr. Lemme and the person they actually saw, probably briefly and without paying too much attention (white, grey hair, wearing a suit...)
COMMENT #530 [Permalink]
...
Peggy
said on 3/13/2005 @ 6:32 am PT...
In the photo, Mr. Lemme is not wearing glasses. So the eye glasses sitting on the desk at the motel were Mr. Lemme's reading glasses only, or sun glasses? Glasses are good items for checking fingerprints aren't they? Whereas Mr. Palmer is wearing glasses in the photo, as is one other "investigator".
COMMENT #531 [Permalink]
...
Peggy
said on 3/13/2005 @ 6:49 am PT...
My vote is to keep this thread going, if possible and practical. Breaking it up into two threads would mean hopping back and forth between the two if you want to re-read something. As one thread, it's a large file, full of ideas and data. One day, a "real patriot" may print it all out, and go catch the murderers. So, unless there is a better way or some other technical reason, I'm happy just to see this thread keep on going til absolutely nothing else can be said. Thanks, everyone.
COMMENT #532 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/13/2005 @ 8:25 am PT...
Fred #519, do they have weekend hours?
Curiouser #523, good catch. And god forbid the PD could have shown a photo of Lemme to the witness.
Peggy #531, Wasn't the conscientious female coworker of Curtis' named Giancola?
Wendell Powell is listed as Field Operations Manager (with Stan Sweitek) along with a Jeff Davis (techn) (not Michael) for Crestview/DeFuniak Springs Operations Area.
http://www.dot.state.fl..../d3web/d3Maintenance.htm
In a 2003 FDOT report, there is an "In Memorium" page at the very end. There are 2 youngish FDOT people who died that year:
“In Memory of Ray Lemme 1947-2003 and Larry
Shelfer 1949-2003”
http://www.dot.state.fl....rts/AnnualReport2003.pdf
COMMENT #533 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/13/2005 @ 8:39 am PT...
Miss Persistent #535 - Good catch on Jeff Davis. Is he also a black male like Michael Davis?
Obviously, Mrs. Gregory should be asked if the "possible white man" she saw with the two black men had a goatee. Then she should be shown a photo of Wendell Palmer and Michael Davis and asked if either of them were the men she saw in the parking lot near Lemme's room.
COMMENT #534 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/13/2005 @ 8:42 am PT...
Re 850-960-6969:
There is a David Johnson who works with Stan Swiatek (I misspelled that on earlier post, sorry), Wendell Powell, and Jeff Davis (not Michael). Listed at the link I provided above.
COMMENT #535 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/13/2005 @ 9:03 am PT...
Let's look again at what "Palmer" is quoted as saying in Det. Bell's report:
"...Palmer gave me a brief verbal statement, claiming that he had never actually seen Raymond Lemme. He claimed to have seen Lemme's vehicle parked in the parking area adjacent to room #132 since the previous Sunday afternoon (June 30, 2003) at approximately 1530 hours. Palmer told me that he had not seen or heard any strange occurrences."
As has been noted, the use of "Sunday" with the later addition of the date seems most likely. But if an entire paragraph/page was redacted here, who can say what kind of other sloppiness Det. Bell is capable of?
In any case, if Lemme's car had been there since 3:30pm on (let's say for now) Sunday, the Gregory family would have likely seen his car as well since Det. Bell's report states that they "arrived at the motel on Friday morning (June 27, 2003) between 0730 and 0800 hours".
At least Det. Bell got the right day/date on that count!
Notably, however, there is no notation in Det. Bell's report as to whether or not Mrs. Gregory or her daughter had ALSO seen Lemme's car there since Sunday at 1530 hours as 'Palmer' is cited as claiming.
WHY NOT?
Perhaps it was asked, but not mentioned in the typed report? I'm no detective, but if one witness tells me the when they first saw the car of a dead man on the scene, I'd want to ask other witnesses if/when they also saw the same car.
COMMENT #536 [Permalink]
...
Snoopy
said on 3/13/2005 @ 9:20 am PT...
Miss P,
Regarding #535, I think you're referring to the whistleblower, Mavis Georgalis, who was punished by the FDOT after siding with Curtis. YEI's owners made statements against her AFTER the unflattering truth began to surface about them. Giancola is the married name of Mr. Lemme's sister.
COMMENT #537 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/13/2005 @ 9:48 am PT...
I've got a long way to go, but I'm reviewing all of our posts. Some are just my reaction to whatever the poster said but they are all referenced. I have added thoughts/scenarios to some of them.
It get's more interesting as we go:
#62, would Lemme (if left on his own) have written military time on the note?
#63, would Lemme's PC have shown that he researched this method of suicide,
#65 I think he had to have been standing in the shower facing away from the plumbing at some point to get blood on the walls.
#80, Mrs. Lemme did not ask for an inquest and not even a toxicology. Wouldn't you wonder if he had bothered to take his meds?
#84, Lemme returned the check in card and paid at 6.45a 6/30, so that no further charges would be made to his card, but went back to his room for some reason. Maybe the family was under threat and he knew he had no choice.
#86 The black book was returned to Mrs. Lemme, does she still have it.
#90 If Lemme did it himself, what was his motive.
#96 Who at FDOT closed the case.
#103 Sun 06/29/03
========
18:44 Reservation receipt for motel room generated.
Mon 06/30/03
========
05:15 Lemme leaves for work.
06:15 Lemme makes call from pay phone at Hwy 19 and Interstate 10..
06:54 Motel credit card receipt with Lemme's signature.
18:45 Lemme checked into hotel.
Tue 07/01/03
========
08:10 Time on suicide note.
11:00 Time Lemme was supposed to check out.
13:06 Lemme found dead.
"Lemme could not have signed reciept at 6:54 am on 6/30/03. Why? We know that at 6:15 am he made a phone call from Hwy 19 and Interstate 10. According to Mapquest, this is aprox 1 hour and 15 minutes away from the Motel."
So now we know maybe he didn't make that call.
#104 pen placed in odd position unless you were a lefty. Was that a clue? Is it pointing to something in the papers under it? Are any of his co-workers lefties - especially the one's we are interested in.
#105 Who gains?
#110 The shoes are not in the closet they may be out of place. Are they pointing to the desk?
Would he have stopped to eat anywhere during this time?
The water and coffee belong to the same person. If two people they would have been set wider apart?
#116 Highway 9 and I-10. Any FDOT employees assigned there?
#123 Do suicide notes usually contain statements of I love you?
#125 Who lured him to Valdosta? There must be phone records. 850-960-6969?
#126, #133 Lemme could have met the guy/s in the room, then gone to check out since they were all in a hurry. Came back, got double-crossed.
#139 The note does seem rushed and short;
!!!#140 Does the belt have fingerprints on it (probably Lemme's). Belt and towel placed after blood dripped down side - who was holding the towel? If lemme was holding the towel and placed it after the cut (obviously from the drip pattern on the towel) it would be messier.
#145 Have the police reports been given to FDOT or any other official agency? This would be the only backup to the idea that some agency is investigating on their own and hence asking Valdosta PD to cease and desist.
#146 Any of Lemme's coworkers have the habit of visiting the strip clubs. Might be a regular there.
COMMENT #538 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/13/2005 @ 10:13 am PT...
Post summary, con't. (I'm thinking maybe I should not continue - is it just going to clog up the works?)
#149 Columbo would check in and do the same things Lemme is purported to have done but he would also go back to the office tell them he left his credit card there, they'd say it wasn't found, he'd ask to see the video just to double check. He'd find any and every hole or plug in the system acting like an airhead in the process.
#150, no water in tub, not the way these suicides are usually done. Slow leak? (maybe he was showering all the while til the last.)
#150 what percent of men do suicide this way and what are the characteristics of those people.
#153 spurts of blood fabricated if body DOA. No signs of strangulation. Kinda does look like it could have been fabricated...
#155 Did Lemme own a gun
#168 Was the watch stem pulled out (or if he pulled it out to stop it, and then pushed it back in to hide that fact would it have started again?)
#168 How often did Lemme have to take his meds?
#169 you can use any card to hold a room and any different (or same) card or cash to pay once you got there. What were the recent bank withdrawals by Lemme?
#173 What would "all the way to the top" and "you'll be satisfied" mean. It would mean that *at least* Feeney and Yang were involved because that was Curtis' concern.
COMMENT #539 [Permalink]
...
George
said on 3/13/2005 @ 11:30 am PT...
Comments #22, #147 and #449 suggest doing a FOIA regarding Lemme's "suicide." 500+ comments show that this is a most interesting case.
But, if the ultimate goal is to question the Nov. 2 election, might it make sense to do a FOIA to obtain the records of Lemme's investigation - the story of which "..would break in the next few weeks.."
COMMENT #540 [Permalink]
...
czaragorn
said on 3/13/2005 @ 11:31 am PT...
Mis Persistent, I for one find your living up to your moniker useful. Please continue. A little something to stimulate the little grey cells. It's a pity so much time has passed - what we need is to catch the interest of an independently wealthy super sleuth, Maybe we could get Columbo to come out of retirement to help us out. I'm sure some feathers would get ruffled fast if he started sniffing around...
COMMENT #541 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/13/2005 @ 12:10 pm PT...
The way the names are arranged on the FDOT PDF, it seems that WENDELL PALMER is the bearded man on the bottom left of the photo I linked in #524.
I could see where in GA/FL he might be taken for Hispanic, not "white".
Interestingly, the color version of the photo at the link is a jpg that crops out a female to Wendell Palmer's left named "Lynn Martin" who you can see in the B&W version of the same photo in the PDF linked in #523.
So, now we have
(1) a fellow FDOT IG employee with the last name PALMER;
(2) a mysterious fellow named in Bell's report with the last name PALMER;
(3) a mysterious non-black/maybe "white" man meeting with two black men near Lemme's room at the Knights Inn around the time of Lemme's death.
What we need is a new thread!
COMMENT #542 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/13/2005 @ 12:23 pm PT...
Post summary (con't),
#184 An amateur graphologist: I can still tell you that note wasn’t written by a depressed person. The writing was upbeat and positive. Note the consistent forward slant; the up-turn of the t-crosses; the consistent upbeat of each word and sentence.
#184 The blade is too clean, there would be a swiping stain. (Maybe he was showering.)
#190 Has anyone contacted that attorney to find out what the meeting was about, and if it was related?
#192 His watch being stopped at 12:34 is way too odd. Interpreting this as meant to signal this was a set up seems like a reasonable hunch.
#193 And the whole operation seems sloppy.
#196 The MO so blatantly doesn't fit Lemme, a meticulous detail oriented professional.
So, maybe whoever insisted on the razor method didn't know Lemme. But those who carried it out seem to have tried to be neat.
#198 Why would a suicidal person take a 7-day supply of heart medication on a one-way trip
#202 Lemme's boss, Robert Clift, signed an affidavit to the effect that Lemme called and said he'd be in late. This was on 6/30/03, in the early morning. Supposedly Lemme had an appointment that afternoon at 1:30, which Clift knew about.
Was 5.15 when Lemme usually left for the office?
#206 The time and text of the note was penned by him to intentionally show a discrepancy between the note and the time on his watch.
#207 in order for this to work, he would have had to bring *all* of his evidence with him. You can bet he had documentation. But, if he'd left the evidence behind (at the office?), well then, a murder wouldn't really help.
!!He couldn’t have received a "sudden" detour call if they wanted *his* evidence – he would have had to be prepared and it would have had to been planned.
#208 an empty manilla folder found in the room.
#211 how long it would take at that time of morning to get from the payphone to the hotel?" Clint Curtis tried 2 different routes. His best: 1 hour 20 minutes.
#216 YEI is a software consulting firm owned by naturalized Chinese who employ an illegal Chinese national who steals missile chips and smuggles them to China. Tried and convicted, he receives only probation and a $100 fine.Tom Feeney is closely connected to YEI, lobbies government contracts for them, is a close Bush family ally and most certainly knows what is going on here and why. some huge money-making scheme is going down in partnership with China. Lemme was on to something which, if made public, would disrupt this whatever-it-is.
#228 -If that is the merchant copy of the check-out receipt then where is the customer copy?
#236 Looks like we've had upwards of 60,000 pageloads since I posted this story. And 1 donation
#240 A private investigator does not drive 160 miles round-trip to meet a stranger in a fleabag motel, unless he is convinced 1) the person has vital information, and 2) it can only be transmitted at that location...More likely it was someone he trusted at the Florida D.O.T. who said, "Ray, let's get out of town where it's safe to talk." I suspect that was the 1:30 appointment he never kept (or did keep).
!!Well now that is interesting - we never thought of the attorney whom Lemme was to meet at 1.30 and who said Lemme never showed up. The attorney would have known everything!!
#244 Lemme had been working for a while to uncover corruption inside the Florida D.O.T. He told Curtis he was close to establishing a chain of wrongdoing that went "all the way to the top." Lemme couldn't have gotten that far without cooperation from informants inside the agency.
So, there are other people who know something - how would Lemme had gotten his information?
COMMENT #543 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/13/2005 @ 12:36 pm PT...
Has an insurance pay-out to Mrs.Lemme been withheld due to "suicide " as cause of death?
Did FDOT have any in-house staff insurance plan?
Has any witness died under suspect circumstances since the Lemme enquery?
Can all witnesses be traced TODAY under the names given to police at the time of Lemme Witness Statements?
Who has continued "Case Load" that Lemme was working on at time of his death?
What was Larry Shelfers position with FDOT and when and how did he die?
What is the "brand " of razor blades used and where can you buy them relative to the route used by Lemme on the days leading up to his demise.
Were can "brand" of coffee and bottled water seen next to TV be purchased relative to motel?
Is there a place that sell all three "introduced items" ie. Razor blades,bottled water and brand of coffee?
Why were no fingerprints found in "fleebag motel" (this was not the Hilton)?
How many "crime scene photos" were taken by Floyd on the day and how many are now available?
Has the FBI any info on this case as Lemme may have been transported across state line ?
Has brother of Ray Lemme been contacted since "crime scene photo's" showed up ,and/or commented on those photo's?
COMMENT #544 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/13/2005 @ 12:39 pm PT...
Curiouser - nice catches! "Palmer" was never described - and there just happens to be a "Palmer" in the motel room above Lemme. Hmm. Was Palmer coordinating something with the black male "Michael Davies" the officer does describe?
Once again, the officer F's up the report by not describing and positively ID'ing a witness - and we have another HOLE.
I swear to God, that entire Police Department needs to be fired at the very least.
COMMENT #545 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 3/13/2005 @ 12:46 pm PT...
COMMENT #546 [Permalink]
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american woman
said on 3/13/2005 @ 12:54 pm PT...
Before I roll off to bed, I have to remark --- you all are coming up with some great stuff. 'Night all. And here's to getting the bad guys. :satisfied:
COMMENT #547 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/13/2005 @ 12:55 pm PT...
MMIIXX posts:
Why were no fingerprints found in "fleebag motel"
I have now totally lost my grip laughing...must take break...
COMMENT #548 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/13/2005 @ 1:00 pm PT...
As I self-destruct in laughter I imagine Brad's next headline:
No fingerprints found in "fleabag" motel !!
COMMENT #549 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/13/2005 @ 1:10 pm PT...
*If* Lemme *did* commmit suicide by choice, the omission of his daughter from note is *VERY* strange. According to Clint Curtis, Lemme talked about her & the upcoming wedding each time they spoke. Why then, was she not mentioned by name? Was he trying to protect her?
*If* that's true, why did he mention his wife by name? Was her name already known to the person/s there?
*Or* did someone else write the note who didn't know her name?
#544 - The name of the FDOT General Counsel is Pamela S. Leslie, who is also a Lobbyist for FDOT with the FL House of Representatives. Was he meeting with her or was someone else going to be present?
ALSO - since Ray's wife is Secretary to Martha W. Barnett, partner in prestigious Holland & Knight law firm, it seems she would have great legal counsel. Is something odd here, too?
Commissioner Martha Walters Barnett
Governor's Appointment
Post Office Drawer 810
Tallahassee, FL 32302-0810
850/425-5620
850/425-5664 (Secretary: Mary Ann Lemme)
FAX: 850/224-8832
COMMENT #550 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/13/2005 @ 1:15 pm PT...
Mary Ann Lemme reported her husband missing on 6/30. It seems to me that clears her of any suspicion in this case, though we can argue endlessly about timelines and where phone calls were made from and other speculation.
I'd suggest that to be able to take this further, i.e. to get Congress actively involved (the F.B.I. and C.I.A. are controlled by the executive branch), our focus must be one important fact:
RAYMOND LEMME WAS INVESTIGATING WRONGDOING WITHIN THE FLORIDA D.O.T. ACCORDING TO CLINT CURTIS AND HIS OWN WIFE, LEMME WAS WORKING ON A BIG CASE AND WAS CLOSE TO CRACKING IT. LEMME WAS FOUND DEAD, AND THE FLORIDA D.O.T., THE SUBJECT OF LEMME'S INVESTIGATION, SUCCEEDED IN ABORTING IT AFTER IT HAD BEEN REOPENED!
THAT IS STAGGERING, FRIENDS. WE'RE NOT GOING TO GET CONGRESS INVOLVED HERE WITH SPECULATION ABOUT ITEMS OF EVIDENCE. MOST OF THE EVIDENCE IS SUBJECT TO INTERPRETATION, ANYWAY. BUT WHEN PEOPLE WHO SHOULD BE WELCOMING AN INVESTIGATION INTO THEIR COLLEAGUE'S SUSPICIOUS DEATH INSTEAD SEEK TO IMPEDE IT, THAT FACT ALONE SUFFICES FOR A CONGRESSIONAL INQUIRY.
COMMENT #551 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/13/2005 @ 1:20 pm PT...
Just thinking - on the morning of June 29th (Monday) when Lemme left home early at 5:15 a.m., his wife wrote in her statement that he said, "I love you." Did she mention it because it was out of the ordinary or was she simply trying to notate everything he said?
COMMENT #552 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/13/2005 @ 1:29 pm PT...
RLM, you have brought attention to the main reason this case must be re-opened. It boggles my mind that the GA officials involved in the case were so quick to dismiss it as suicide, even though they KNEW he was an INVESTIGATOR with the FDOT. That should be enough IMHO to warrant a longer and more thorough investigation.
I still want to hear from the ME's office what they made of the bruising on his neck. If he *did* slip and fall against the side of the tub, would he still be able to end up in the sitting position?
COMMENT #553 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 3/13/2005 @ 1:31 pm PT...
why did Floyd go to 1 store to see if they sold brand of razor blades if suicide?
COMMENT #554 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 3/13/2005 @ 1:37 pm PT...
suicide note written as statement rather than "to family"
ie. "I love MY family" instead of "I love you Mary-ann etc."
COMMENT #555 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/13/2005 @ 1:42 pm PT...
I was always curious how you could get a missing persons case going in less than 12 hours.
It's possible she mentioned the I love you to help show he wasn't "running away from home," that he truly was missing under suspicious circumstances - she seemed concerned over his health.
But there's something odd about the note altogether...
COMMENT #556 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/13/2005 @ 1:43 pm PT...
Snoopy #508: 6 weeks BEFORE Lemme dies, he & wife purchase a (modest?) townhouse. 9 months AFTER his death – wife buys a SUBSTANTIAL home & keeps townhouse. Her real estate holdings worth several $$hundred thousand.
WHY does the Mrs. need or want a big home now that she has lost her partner? Most people (it seems) would prefer to have a smaller place after losing their lifetime partner. Most singles prefer smaller places unless they have a live-in maid/butler/staff.
This has made me wonder if there was some insurance money, although I was under the impression suicide is not covered by insurance companies.
COMMENT #557 [Permalink]
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peterpont
said on 3/13/2005 @ 1:46 pm PT...
Hello again
I have throughly enjoyed the posts here and surely some of the comments will turn out to be correct, assuming this case is ever solved.
That said: It would seem at this point, instead of adding more to the 500+ posts, the emphsis should turn to :how can we help get an investigation started? Surely someone posting here has somebody that has a relationship of some sort, with someone in the law inforcement business in that area of the states. Are there Investigative reporters(newspapers, news stations) who might also live in the area and are in need of a "Story" to make their mark?
Maybe attyjim knows someone in the "bighouse"
who might have info.
Mrs Lemme and the brother:How about snail mail to them with some of the comments here?
Miss Persistent does a nice job of organizing the comments and might want to coorinate an effort to contact others as well. I hate to see all this effort go to waste and just end with spectulation
Oh, and Brad-(bigshot) Just fishin'
COMMENT #558 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/13/2005 @ 2:22 pm PT...
Another thought --- *If* Lemme *did* commit suicide, WHERE is his IMPORTANT research? Wouldn't he have made arrangements to have that work given to someone he trusted - or maybe to more than 1 source?
Brad - waiting anxiously for your next update!!
COMMENT #559 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 3/13/2005 @ 2:24 pm PT...
Brad could YOU ask Mr. Lemme brother to "get involved" in re-investigating his brothers untimely death.He should be pretty easy to track down and convince that "new evidence" has become available.
COMMENT #560 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 3/13/2005 @ 2:30 pm PT...
Who recovered/leaked "crime scene" photo's ,was it Floyd?
COMMENT #561 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/13/2005 @ 3:25 pm PT...
RLM wrote Mary Ann Lemme reported her husband missing on 6/30. It seems to me that clears her of any suspicion in this case...
WHY ON EARTH WOULD THAT BE SO?!
If she knew something bad was going to happen, she had even more of a reason to make herself look concerned and innocent!
If she didn't know something bad was going to happen, AND SHE KNEW YOU "MAIN POINT" ABOUT HER HUSBAND HAVING A "BIG CASE" AS SHE STATED HERSELF, thenshe had even more of a reason to make damned sure there was a thorough investigation of her husband's death!
Let the courts presume innocence.
As far as this juror in the court of public opinion is concerned, NOBODY gets the benefit of the doubt!
COMMENT #562 [Permalink]
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vdres
said on 3/13/2005 @ 3:31 pm PT...
Posted this link locally and some info has come back. Local police contacts (regular police) claim to have no knowledge of this. Given the following, it would seem the local law enforcement tend to process apparent suicides rapidly, and unless there's an autopsy, a faked suicide would likely go unexamined beyond routine follow-up:
"Unfortunately, locally, we have an unacceptable history of mishandling investigations and/or destroying evidence when it comes to percieved suicides and other questionable deaths. Although it lacks a similar political motivation, the death of a VPD officer's ex-girlfriend from almost a decade ago echoes some frightening siliarities to this one - Donya Jones also was found in the bathtub with a slashed wrist."
This was made into a law enforcement film:
Catalog Number: 95385V
Title: Scapegoat or Murder? Georgia vs. Cassotta
Production Year: 1996
Description: Maurice Cassotta, a 14-year veteran of the Valdosta, Georgia police force, was accused of killing his former girlfriend, Donya Jones, and their two-year-old son. Because the Valdosta police believed the deaths to be a murder-suicide, they cleaned up the scene. When the autopsy revealed that Donya had been strangled, they began to investigate the case even though most of the evidence had been destroyed.
This doesn't resolve any sloppiness vs. collusion issues, but it does follow a local pattern. If there is collusion, it would involve the coroner's office. The following article documents problems between the press and the local agencies. The reporter was later released from her duties at the VD Times.
http://www.gfaf.org/newsletters/january2001.pdf
Have fun.
COMMENT #563 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/13/2005 @ 3:32 pm PT...
Just for further clarification - IF Mrs. Lemme is being leaned on to go along with the program, then she needs people like us asking the kind of questions that may make some squeamish.
She may not be in a position to state her actual concerns, in which case it is the utmost of doing her a service to continue to press matters about her knowledge of certain events.
I'm not going to presume that she's an unwilling participant in what happened to her husband, although I am certainly open to that possibility as well as the possibility that she knew beforehand what was to befall her husband.
What I'm NOT willing to countenance is the notion that, despite knowing that her husband had a big case, loved his wife and was looking forward to seeing his daughter marry, her husband's abrupt and unexpected 'suicide' is unworthy of serious, lengthy and intense scrutiny.
COMMENT #564 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/13/2005 @ 3:35 pm PT...
...vdres
WOW!!! EXCELLENT FIND!
I still think the bruising on Lemme's neck suggests strangling, which could stop his heart and make it easier to fake his suicide, while also explaining the lack of blood spattering one would normally expect to find.
What would have been used? The belt found next to the tub is a likely guess in my opinion.
COMMENT #565 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/13/2005 @ 3:44 pm PT...
I read an article a little bit ago about how some blunt head trauma case was ruled accidental by the coroner in Valdosta. Wouldn't surprise me at all if the PD and Coroner all had a little "chat" between themselves. That may even been the reason for the set up in Valdosta. Someone may have an "in" there. Money talks there I'm sure.
I've disliked the ME/C and Floyd from the beginning because they didn't do their jobs. Not even close.
You can't tell me the PD doesn't know about how to lock a door from the outside if our resident expert says it's been done so many times.
COMMENT #566 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/13/2005 @ 3:44 pm PT...
COMMENT #567 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/13/2005 @ 3:49 pm PT...
One correction. The name of the movie is:
SCAPEGOAT OR MUDERER? GEORGIA VS. CASSOTTA
Apparently is was a Court TV - Cops on Trial production.
Hmm. I wonder who we contact at Court TV to have them run the show in relation to this incident.
Anybody know Catherine Crier?
COMMENT #568 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/13/2005 @ 3:57 pm PT...
There's also plenty of copies for sale on the web. Amazon has them starting at $1.99.
Maybe they should sell them with Curtis' Just a Fly On the Wall at a discount?
RottenTomatoes.com has this description:
SYNOPSIS:
In this series installment, an officer stands accused of murdering his ex-girlfriend and their two-year-old son, and of participating with other officers in a conspiracy to conceal incriminating material evidence.
I guess we know why Lemme's suicide would be staged in Valdosta now, don't we?
COMMENT #569 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/13/2005 @ 4:11 pm PT...
What's strange is that in doing Google searches, almost nothing relevant comes up when you look for the terms "Cassotta" "Valdosta", except for the video and a couple of headlines that are just a part of a list of headlines.
Other than that, it's almost like it never happened.
Maybe they thought that would happen this time, too.
Wrong.
COMMENT #570 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/13/2005 @ 4:13 pm PT...
Hmmm - wonder if VPD is shying away from possible bad press on botched investigation before securing accreditation:
Valdosta Police Department PassesPreliminary Inspection for Reaccreditation
VPD to receive favorable report
Author: Heath Griner
Publication Date: 2005-02-24
VALDOSTA — A team of assessors who inspected Valdosta Police Department this week will recommend that the department retain its accreditation.
“Based on our review, there will be a very favorable final report,” said Deputy Chief Gary Jones from Illinois, the assessment team leader. “We saw no issues we believe will get in the way of (reaccreditation).”
The assessment team makes its final recommendation to the full Commission on Accreditation for Law Enforcement Agencies in July in Boston.
To maintain its CALEA status, the VPD must submit to onsite verification every three years by a team of law enforcement officers. Accompanied by Capt. Gary Felts of North Carolina and Deputy Chief Robert Daniels of South Florida, Jones arrived Saturday to review the department’s compliance with 446 CALEA standards.
The VPD first became accredited in July 1999. Besides the recognition of obtaining international excellence, the primary benefits of accreditation include controlled liability insurance costs, administrative improvements, greater accountability from supervisors, increased governmental and community support.
COMMENT #571 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/13/2005 @ 4:15 pm PT...
COMMENT #572 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/13/2005 @ 4:18 pm PT...
COMMENT #573 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/13/2005 @ 4:19 pm PT...
Excellent find Kira #570!
That means this is the PERFECT OPPORTUNITY to demonstrate that they don't deserve anything but to receive the intense scrutiny of the entire country.
On the other hand, this may be just the kind of story that the Guardian UK might pick up before any stateside newspapers will dare.
Quick! to the GregPalst.com phone!
COMMENT #574 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/13/2005 @ 4:23 pm PT...
Here's a related article:
Assessment team examines police’s media relations
There's even a photo captioned:
Valdosta Police Capt. Brian Childress, left, goes over information with Commission on Accreditation for Law Enforcement Agencies member Gary Jones from Hazel Crest, Ill., Monday morning at Valdosta Police Department headquarters.
COMMENT #575 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/13/2005 @ 4:28 pm PT...
COMMENT #576 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/13/2005 @ 4:36 pm PT...
This is the one I had read:
"Twenty-four hours later, Williams had a seizure and died. According to attorneys for both parties, the coroner's report determined that because Williams was a chronic alcoholic, his brain had shrunk..."
"The official line on this thing was that nothing had happened, nobody was wrong, nobody had done anything. The GBI came in and rubber-stamped the sheriff's initial findings. Everybody was in lockstep that this was just a freak accident, that this fellow had not been abused. ... The sheriff made a statement to the Valdosta Daily Times indicating they were treating it [Williams' death] as justified. ... The district attorney took the same position."
http://www.law.com/jsp/a...cle.jsp?id=1024078954768
COMMENT #577 [Permalink]
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Dredd
said on 3/13/2005 @ 5:07 pm PT...
Winter Patriot #504 I will plead guilty to a lesser included offense ... love ya bro
COMMENT #578 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/13/2005 @ 5:53 pm PT...
I was just thinking about how much courage it has taken for all of us to peruse the particular facts in this case and to look Ray Lemme's photos, again and again, and know that he was trying to do some good. I know I'm finding it quite a challenge - this is my first case.
I think we've come a long way and done some good work that the Valdosta Police Department has been unable and unwilling to do - even though they are paid to do so by taxpayers. And I'm sure we're not finished.
But at least now I think we've shown, beyond any doubt, that this was not such a clear-cut case of suicide. If suicide is a crime, then Ray Lemme was charged with that crime - without the benefit of much fact to back that up.
And where is the MSM? Not even in the powder room. Where is the Valdosta PD? On the toilet. Where is the coroner? Hopefully flushed.
COMMENT #579 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistent
said on 3/13/2005 @ 6:05 pm PT...
Thanks Kira! That accreditation agency (CALEA) must be the biggest hoax on the planet. Giving Valdosta PD five thumbs up is the funniest thing I've heard since "Valdosta fleabag investigation finds no fleas."
COMMENT #580 [Permalink]
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cheryl
said on 3/13/2005 @ 6:06 pm PT...
Holy Macadoodle! You guys are still going strong. OT, it was a beautiful weekend and we got lots of spring cleaning done. I think if you guys take a break for the rest of the day and come back tomorrow, you'll have a refreshed brain and all kinds of new thoughts will pop into your heads! Love you all.
COMMENT #581 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/13/2005 @ 6:18 pm PT...
Amen, Miss Persistant. We need a MSM reporter on our side. Sheesh. BTW, did anybody happen to read the NY Times article today (I know it's a bit OT here, but relevant to our problem with the media):
What Propaganda?
Under Bush, a New Age of Prepackaged TV News
Under the Bush administration, the federal government has aggressively used a well-established tool of public relations: the prepackaged, ready-to-serve news report that major corporations have long distributed to TV stations to pitch everything from headache remedies to auto insurance. In all, at least 20 federal agencies, including the Defense Department and the Census Bureau, have made and distributed hundreds of television news segments in the past four years, records and interviews show. Many were subsequently broadcast on local stations across the country without any acknowledgement of the government's role in their production.
COMMENT #582 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/13/2005 @ 6:27 pm PT...
Hahah! Thanks for the laffs, Miss P.! Like MMIIXX's joke about no fingerprints found in Valdosta Hot Pillow Pad. Heehee!
COMMENT #583 [Permalink]
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Peg C
said on 3/13/2005 @ 6:38 pm PT...
Hi all -
I just came upon a particularly appropriate article by Tom Fiedler in today's Miami Herald, entitled "You Have a Right to Know What Your Government Is Doing." It deals with press coverage shedding light on agency problems, a scrutiny that leads to change for the good.
Fiedler is concerned that things are becoming more inscrutable under the present regime.
"In Florida, we have long valued ''government in the sunshine.'' State laws guaranteeing public access to government records and to government meetings are known commonly as the Sunshine Laws. It's an apt label, evoking the ancient medical belief that sunshine is the best disinfectant.
And yet today in Tallahassee and in Washington, D.C., lawmakers are working in ways to close much of the access that Floridians and Americans enjoy. To be sure, some of these steps are well intended to provide security against those who would do harm.
But each new law adds to a darkening shadow across our government, sheltering its actions from full view and thus our ability to criticize and correct. Florida legislators, for example, have filed almost 50 bills affecting the Sunshine Laws, most of them seeking exemptions from it. One bill seeks to reverse a constitutional amendment allowing medical consumers to research a physician's complaint history."
Link to the article, republished by Common Dreams, is here.
COMMENT #584 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 3/13/2005 @ 6:47 pm PT...
CALLING ALL CARS
WHAT SORT OF HICK ORGANISATION IS THIS "calea"
Somebody needs to contact the supervisor of these idiots and let them know NEW information has come forward (digial photos for instance) and they will go down with the VPD when "it" hits the fan.This might stir them up more as any collusion would not have include anybody from CALEA
To maintain its CALEA status, the VPD must submit to onsite verification every three years by a team of law enforcement officers. Accompanied by Capt. Gary Felts of North Carolina and Deputy Chief Robert Daniels of South Florida, Jones arrived Saturday to review the department’s compliance with 446 CALEA standards.
The VPD first became accredited in July 1999. Besides the recognition of obtaining international excellence, the primary benefits of accreditation include controlled liability insurance costs, administrative improvements, greater accountability from supervisors, increased governmental and community support.
COMMENT #585 [Permalink]
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peterpont
said on 3/13/2005 @ 6:50 pm PT...
Two posts in one day-way too much from me
So please indulge me once again
I have written (emailed) to both Calea and the editor of the Valdosta daily times with my concerns and have urged both to look at the Lemme posts on bradblog.com. I have also requested a reponse from them. I worded the email strongly but without accusations.
My suggestion to all
Follow my lead and contact people that can make a difference-not just each other here on bradblog.com
It made me feel better and I hope you will have a similiar experience.
Miss Persistence-consider forwarding select posts for impact and convience (575)blogs is a lot to go through
Peter
COMMENT #586 [Permalink]
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Miss Persistence
said on 3/13/2005 @ 7:13 pm PT...
Thanks for the nomination Peterpont! Unfortunately, I lost my persistence to humor somewhere about halfway through. I cracked.
All I can do right now is come up with headlines, like, "Valdosta Coroner Weighs Brains During Autopsy and Considers Deaths Justified if Less Than 8 Pounds. New Parents Raise Concerns."
COMMENT #587 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/13/2005 @ 7:24 pm PT...
Peterpont - Way to go!
As for MSM coverage, I wouldn't count on it. Not American MSM, at least.
Again, and no offense to Brad, but I think we should try to get Greg Palast to look at this. He knows the landscape, the players, has the audience on all things vote-rigging and can get MSM coverage of this in the UK.
That cracks the first egg so that we can scramble the rest of the dozen here in the US.
COMMENT #588 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/13/2005 @ 8:04 pm PT...
Was just wondering ... What do y'all think ... would we get anywhere by starting an online petition to reopen the Lemme case?
COMMENT #589 [Permalink]
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american woman
said on 3/13/2005 @ 9:30 pm PT...
Kira mentioned the excellent NYT piece Under Bush, a New Age of Prepackaged TV News.
Guess what? Last night when I printed it, the headline different (and better): News or Public Relations? For Bush It's a Blur
COMMENT #590 [Permalink]
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Dissue
said on 3/13/2005 @ 9:34 pm PT...
In reading through all of the comments, I noticed a not-so-small discrepancy. In post #457 Fred said that he called 850-997-3847 and found that it is a phone at a Payday loan business. In his report, Leon County Officer Jim Tyson says that Robert Clift "learned the call that Mr. Lemme made came from 997-3845." If Fred actually called 997-3847, then all of the discussion and conjecture about what Ray Lemme was doing at the Payday is moot.
COMMENT #591 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 3/13/2005 @ 10:05 pm PT...
ARE ALL THESE GUYS SPEED READERS TO THE MAX?
HOW MANY DAYS TO "examine all aspects of the VPD’s policies and procedures, management, operations and support services."
The three-member team from the Commission on Accreditation for Law Enforcement Agencies arrived Saturday to examine all aspects of the VPD’s policies and procedures, management, operations and support services.
I THINK I'M GUNNA PUKE!!!!!!!!!!!!
“We try to do a good job with all standards, including media, and what better proof is there than to have the media come in and talk to the assessors alone?” said Capt. Brian Childress, VPD public information officer.
AH "ALONE" THAT WOULD MAKE ALL THE DIFFERNCE
PICTURES AT 11 .......YEA RIGHT
http://www.valdostadaily...mes.com/content/1/14451/
COMMENT #592 [Permalink]
...
Peg C
said on 3/13/2005 @ 10:08 pm PT...
Miss Persistent #586 -
Where have all the persistences gone...? It's the name-with-the-persistence thing, right? This thread is 'WAY TOO LONG and people have been playing detective 'way too long. Real stuff needs to intrude.
On the other hand, Peterpont has a pont: if you're going to blog and analyze and wail about media inattention, at least synopsize your case for the media. With a persistence that cannot be denied.
COMMENT #593 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/13/2005 @ 10:12 pm PT...
COMMENT #594 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/14/2005 @ 1:06 am PT...
Curiouser and others have questioned my logic regarding Mary Ann Lemme's actions. I suggested that her reporting Ray's pf disappearance on 6/30 tended to absolve her from suspicion.
It isn't open and shut, I agree. But she also said it was out of character for him not to report in. If she had known he was about to be murdered, that would be a very calculating remark on her part, and would certainly make Ray into an utter fool for the suicide note language. Doesn't add up for me.
Here's what does. The Florida D.O.T. called off the reopened investigation in December 2004. Whatever excuse they gave for making the request (or demand), and whatever reason Childress had for agreeing to it, must have been powerful, on the order of "grave danger to national security" or "a secret investigation is underway at federal level, don't interfere."
If the D.O.T. approached Childress, they'd logically have wanted Mary Ann Lemme to believe the same thing...especially since she worked at a law firm with political connections in the state capitol. For me, whatever caused Childress to back off is keeping Mary Ann Lemme quiet, and officially accepting a suicide ruling that runs 100% counter to her own portrayal of Ray on the day he vanished.
COMMENT #595 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/14/2005 @ 1:45 am PT...
RLM - I'm glad to see that you're not committed to the notion that Mary Ann might not be acting under intense pressure or mere disregard. But I also encourage you to question whether or not Lemme penned the suicide note.
Allow me to repeat myself: FDOT has literal REAMS of Lemme's handwriting. It wouldn't be difficult to fake. At the same time, the underlining may indeed be clues Lemme left IF he wrote it himself under duress. Why mention Mary Ann? How could he not? He probably thought that she would demand an investigation, and he's no fool for thinking that would be a sensible reaction for her to take. Why not mention his daughter by name? Ah-ha! It means that (a) he didn't write it or (b) it's a clue he left under duress.
Why would Childress/Valdosta PD think they can get away with this? Becaue they think they're going to recover their reputation from CALEA, which by Dec. 2004 was already underway.
That's a pressure point that needs to be played upon: we have to make sure that not even a shifty org like CALEA will touch the Valdosta PD with a ten-foot accredidation!
I want to be clear: I don't presume that Mrs. Lemme is cold hearted. In fact, I think it may be very likely that she's broken hearted and scared. Why buy a big house? Maybe she thinks real estate is the best way to leave her daughter an inheritance in the case of her own demise. I say that we should act as though Mrs. Lemme needs our strength to force this issue because she can't do it from her current position. If we err and it turns out that she's clueless or calculating, we still wind up with a good result: SHINING HTE LIGHT ON THESE COCKROACHES!
Thank goodness we have documentary evidence that this is nothing new for Valdosta. Personally, I fully expect Dateline NBC to try to help Valdosta cover up this matter ESPECIALLY if they think Lemme was right about this going "all the way to the top"! We have to buy some of the copies of the Court TV program that are for sale on the internet, because you KNOW that the Valdosta PD/FDOT now have a major motive to try to sequester/destroy them.
My prediction for Dateline NBC goes for Court TV as well: they are a corporation who cannot afford to connect the dots. Thankfully there is enough here to make a case for intense scrutiny with the blogosphere and journalists who have more leeway than most (e.g., Greg Palast). But, who knows? Maybe somebody like Keith Olbermann might actually cover this.
I would simply warn everyone that, in many ways, incomplete corporate coverage which will focus on minor aspects rather than on the primary matters could be the kiss of death as far as public interest.
I'm anxious to see what Brad's next step will be on this!
Fred - don't worry about it. Thanks for showing us the importance of taking notes about what we do and posting them.
FDOT/Valdosta PD/People who know too much -
LOOK OUT!
COMMENT #596 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/14/2005 @ 1:53 am PT...
where are the rest of the photos that Floyd took ,gotta be more than 20ish ,digital cameras and all.
why did she check if the store sold razors and watch the store video if she was "sure" it was suicide ,was she looking for the 2 guys in the carpark area at 7.30 to 8.00 who then met up with a third man who may have been Lemme.
COMMENT #597 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/14/2005 @ 2:06 am PT...
Why check for the blades? If she could prove they sold that kind that would lend even more credence to the notion that he did it. My guess is that if she'd have found out that they did sell them, the store's video would have been reported as "taped over".
The big questions for me now are:
(1) Who is the man referred to as PALMER in Det. Bell's sloppy report?
(2) Why doesn't Det. Bell note that Mrs. Gregory confirmed that Michael Davis wasn't one of the two black men she saw in the parking lot talking to the "possible white man"?
(3) Why weren't the cup & bottle noted, diagrammed and tested for fingerprints/chemicals?
But there are so many big questions.
It's hard to know how to prioritize them.
COMMENT #598 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/14/2005 @ 2:08 am PT...
Allow me to suggest again that Brad get a CAFEPRESS.com account to sell BradBlog.com T-shirts and make some money!
COMMENT #599 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/14/2005 @ 2:53 am PT...
For Curiouser---My first reaction regarding the suicide note was, "He was forced to sign it." I agree it's also possible it was written in advance at the
F.D.O.T. and given to the murderers to leave at the scene of the crime.
The handwriting by itself almost rules out suicide. Letters slanting forward suggest optimism, not depression, and the fact that words tend to track upward within phrases also reflect a "glass is half full, not half empty" attitude by the writer.
I went through something like this in my own life. My wife was near death in a coma five years ago when her birth relatives forged her signature to a letter authorizing Prudential to clean out her money market account and send $60,000 to them (they still have the dough, although Prudential made good to the estate to keep it out of the papers).
I mention this only to make the point that forging someone's signature from a sample necessarily replicates the victim's mindset at the time the original was signed. If in fact it was a forgery done in advance at the D.O.T., it shows a man with a positive, forward-looking attitude toward life. That's consistent with Clint Curtis' comments about Lemme's progress in the investigation and his talk of his daughter's wedding, and obviously inconsistent with a pending suicide.
COMMENT #600 [Permalink]
...
Snoopy
said on 3/14/2005 @ 4:06 am PT...
Kira #556,
Because Mr. Lemme was active in the Reserve, I thought maybe death benefits were available from the military and social security. Besides, both of the Lemme's had been working for many years and probably had substantial savings.
When I saw that she had the townhouse and the other house (which is double the size of the townhouse @ 2600 sq. ft.), I thought that maybe she let her newlywed daughter, Audrey Lyn, stay in the larger home or used one property or the other for rental income.
In my opinion, I don't see anything sinister about what Mrs. Lemme has done with the real estate. There are no signs of any major windfalls, she just seems to be cashing in a little to be more comfortable after a terrible tragedy. By the way, real estate prices in Florida are skyrocketing. The Lemme's may have made money when they sold their residence prior to the townhouse. Unfortunately, I do not have information on any Lemme residence before the townhouse.
The most significant thing to me was the townhouse purchase just before Mr. Lemme's death. It appears they may have moved to a smaller place because Audrey Lyn left the nest. The Lemme's may have been trying to look ahead and simplify their lives. Instead, this terrible crime happened.
COMMENT #601 [Permalink]
...
KestrelBrighteyes
said on 3/14/2005 @ 5:35 am PT...
RE: CALL FROM PAYPHONE TO MR CLIFT
"Mr Clift learned the call that Lemme made came from 997-3845" (from agency report 03-109927)
If Clift "learned" where the call came from, there are/were records - and those records should give dates and times of the call. If the call wasn't made, where did he get the number from?
It had to be either given to him by someone, or he got it himself from the payphone, so that he knew it was on the way to Valdosta. In that case, whomever took down the number forgot to check the store hours - seems awfully careless.
OR, they got it from a PAY PHONE DIRECTORY, which may not have the detail about whether the phone is inside or outside, and probably would not have details about store hours.
These are available on the 'net, but it's not uncommon for government agencies (such as the DOT) to have someone on board who's good at phreaking - and they would have access to a directory.
One step further (speculation only) - remember the stories about Bay Point Schools in Florida and hackers?
COMMENT #602 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/14/2005 @ 6:04 am PT...
How did Clift "learn" where the call came from. Why did he want to "learn" this information?
COMMENT #603 [Permalink]
...
Miss Persistent
said on 3/14/2005 @ 6:13 am PT...
Oh I forgot, ding ding ding ding ding, 600th post made by Curiouser! Congrats on your persistent curiousity!!
COMMENT #604 [Permalink]
...
cheryl
said on 3/14/2005 @ 7:30 am PT...
BRAD!
Curiouser's suggestion at #600 is a good one. Not only to make a couple of bucks, but any that are sold and worn are good advertising. I'd wear one way up here in the frozen North.
COMMENT #605 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/14/2005 @ 9:17 am PT...
I called the Pay Fast Track people on their phone #850-997-3847 (not the same phone #3845 Lemme called from - Yes, I was careful this time!). The same lady answered. They are in a "Jefferson Plaza". The Pay Fast Track is in it's own separate building - separate from the mini-mall.
I asked if there are any payphones I can use outside or inside their building and she said "No."
I asked her if she was positive, she said she was sure there are not any payphones outside their building, nor inside. She said the only phone customers can use near the building is the their business phone inside (obviously only during biz hours 10-6).
Does anyone live around there to confirm? There has to be a way to trace the history on that phone number 850-997-3845 with the phone company. But what's the Phone Company name?
When I call 850-997-3845 (the # Lemme called from - Yes, I was more careful about dialing the correct number this again!) I get an electronic machine answering. Sounds like a fax or a modem. What do you guys think?
I found 2 payphones (850-997-0067 & 850-997-0265) at the I-10 eastbound Rest Area on mile post 234 from a website where this stuff is their hobby. I called the 0067 number and some guy answered. So we know that the payphones can accept incoming calls and don't give off electronic noise.
Still searching....
COMMENT #606 [Permalink]
...
Dredd
said on 3/14/2005 @ 10:24 am PT...
#1 Fran
#100 Southern Bell
#200 Miss Persistent
#300 mmiixx
#400 Miss Persistent
#500 Dredd
#600 Curiouser
#700 ?????
COMMENT #607 [Permalink]
...
peterpont
said on 3/14/2005 @ 10:27 am PT...
Over 600 posts!-I wonder how many different user names are represented?
It is time to take a organized (can you do this with bloggers?) approach to helping Brad bring this to the attention of people who can or know those who can, bring pressure on the official cover-up. Only then will we expand on our knowledge, as they share with the public their findings. Maybe the MSM isn't the first to grasp the relevance of this story, but they will get on board later simply by the "sensationalism" and scope of the story and it's implications of immense corruption.
For those of you who have not yet read and also to those who have, I urge you to read(reread) Wayne Madsen (Washington D.C. based writer/journalist)
report from Onlinejournal.org
The second to the last paragraph really (at least to me) is important.
So----speaking of important. It is really important that we as concerned citizens make our voice heard individually as well as collectively. I previously mentioned here that I had contacted some of the principles involved in the investigation or in the reporting of it. I am again urging others to do the same. Brad is booking talk radio to spread the word, and we also need to help communicate the message that this story is not going to go away.
My head is dizzy from all the spectulation and "sluthing" on this post. What I want to see now, is post after post that list people, agencys,organizations,officials,media,government servants(yeah, they still are serving at our pleasure)and others you may think of.
Please post these so others may use them to add their personal email to . Snail addresses are also welcome.
I for one will contact any I see here on Bradblog.com
And lastly: Thanks to Miss Persistence and others who have written so well. I hope you all realize the war we are in and it will only be won -one battle at a time.
Peter
COMMENT #608 [Permalink]
...
Jeff
said on 3/14/2005 @ 11:02 am PT...
peterpont said to read or reread wayne madsen's report from onlinejournal.com (not .org).
I can't find it. do you have a link?
COMMENT #609 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/14/2005 @ 11:17 am PT...
Let me play devil's advocate regarding Wayne Madsen's article.
He's a good reporter, but his analysis of the 2004 election fraud goes very far afield. It gets into renegade ex-C.I.A. agents who were hired by Bush supporters in Houston to fix the vote, but got angry when they weren't paid as promised and decide to wreak revenge. Supposedly the money to pay them had laundered through offshore accounts of dummy corporations based in the Cook Islands, the same accounts that funnel that have been used to funnel Arab oil money in and out.
Very complicated, and not helpful to those of us who are convinced Ray Lemme was murdered, because it tends to support our negative public image as tin-foil hat wearers. We won't get Congress to pay attention with long, drawn-out stories that read like paperback detective novels (although Madsen could be on target).
Once again, dear friends...THE FLORIDA D.O.T., WHICH SHOULD HAVE WELCOMED A THOROUGH INVESTIGATION INTO THE SUSPICIOUS DEATH OF THEIR LONG-STANDING COLLEAGUE, RAY LEMME, INSTEAD WENT OUT OF ITS WAY TO IMPEDE IT! THAT'S THE SMOKING GUN HERE.
WHY DID THEY DO THIS? THE BURDEN IS ON THEM TO ANSWER THE QUESTION, AND THE BURDEN IS ON US TO MAKE SURE JOHN CONYERS GETS TO ASK IT OF THEM. THAT WILL HAPPEN IF WE STICK TO THE BASIC FACTS, BUT PROBABLY WON'T HAPPEN IF WE DEPEND ON COMPLICATED CONSPIRACY THEORIES WHICH MIGHT HAVE HOLES THAT TOM FEENEY CAN SNEAK THROUGH.
COMMENT #610 [Permalink]
...
casolaro
said on 3/14/2005 @ 12:00 pm PT...
Dredd, the car: 1999 Chevy Malibu, beige, FL tag # US05700 (which is a USAF reservist "vanity" tag).
Everyone with timelines: The note had to have been written on the morning of the 30th since Lemme was stiff and cold when found at 1 pm on July 1. It was NOT written the morning of July 1, and Lemme was NOT the white guy in the trio in the parking lot on the morning of July 1. And he most certainly did not sign a receipt on the morning of July 1. He was dead - had been dead probably 18-20 hours by that time. The maids probably tried his room the day before, saw the DND sign, and left it 'til later then didn't get around to it --- it's a "fleabag motel," right? The next morning they came back, saw the DND on a room which was supposed to be unoccupied, and called Sabita. By the same token (Lemme had been dead since sometime mid-June 30th), what are the odds that a hit squad would stay in the area and visible until their target was STIFF? I think those three guys are just three guys.
I don't know what you guys are going to tell "Dave" when someone calls him, but somebody probably should, and just ask how long he's had the number - if for years, explain. He''l have been someone who knew and probably cared about Ray. It's annoying, maybe, if he got a lot of calls, but you're goodhearted people just trying to make sure that Ray Lemme's death gets the full investigation it deserves. There's nothing to be ashamed of in that, and the "911" addendum sounds like a message. It's certainly not an extension, since this is a private number.
For the "was he showering" theorists: You mean, did he cut his arm in the shower, then get on his undershirt and pants AFTERWARD without bleeding all over the place? No, he didn't. The tub was not filled with water, in the image that's his dark pants. He's clothed, and there's not blood all over the place, so he did not shower while slashing. The washcloth: it's a double-sided razor. Whoever used it to cut Ray's arm (including Ray, potentially) did not want to simultaneously slice into his fingers or have slippery blood make things difficult - hence holding it with the cloth. That the cloth is where the right hand would place it while seated in the tub is a good touch, but the blood high up on the enclosure is not so easily explained. The lack of smudges around the blade indicates the blade was dropped from a very small height (no bounce or shifting), probably from its bed within the washcloth. The fact that the belt is way the heck out of the tub to the LEFT of Ray's body is not such a good touch, IMO. Possible, but a little weird.
There's something wrong with the Fast Track thing.
Wish Ray had had a cell phone.
COMMENT #611 [Permalink]
...
casolaro
said on 3/14/2005 @ 12:09 pm PT...
COMMENT #612 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/14/2005 @ 12:16 pm PT...
How to reconcile the following?:
1.Two 1 inch cuts at the left elbow of the deceased.
2. Blood on the rim of the tub, right side.
3. Blood on the rim of the tub, left side
4. Bloody wet T shirt, left side-only
5. Blood streaks on T shirt. left side
6. Blood streak on the left upper arm, just at the shirt.
7. belt on towel left side of tub, possible tourniquet ?
8. why choose the more difficult, tho superficial vein on the back of the left arm when more abundent vessals are available over entire lower arm?
9. Large diffuse bruise right neck area
Let's give it a shot.
Lemme is placed in the tub, right side down his head is proped against the wall and tub-causing the neck bruising. A tourniquet is place on his left arm -why?--if he is already severely incapacitated there would be deminished blood flow, if already dead there would be no blood flow. So the touniquet would allow the blood in the left arm raised high against the right shower wall to flow from the two cuts while the arm is squeezed. Some blood would fall onto the right tub.
Lemme is then rotated to lie proped up and his left arm putside the tub and the tourniquet removed and dropped.
The arm is then placed inside the tub
The blood would flow onto his shirt and some would
COMMENT #613 [Permalink]
...
Robert Lockwood Mills
said on 3/14/2005 @ 12:17 pm PT...
The eerie similarities between Lemme's death and the case of the cop's girlfriend in 1996 is important because of the public relations aspect. The town would not want its dirty laundry hung out for all to see. It's becoming clearer why the murderers chose Valdosta for the crime...no mandatory autopsy and a history the town would like to forget.
Lemme's death is even more suspicious than the Jones woman's, because if Lemme committed suicide in Valdosta he first drove 80 miles from another state to do it (or was forced to make the trip at gunpoint by someone he met early that morning, someone who needed to show Lemme's car in the motel's parking lot).
Otherwise he could have been lured to Valdosta with a promise of information. Conceivably Moody A.F.B. plays into the equation somehow. But driving there to kill himself? No. Like bolting the door from the inside, that's a superfluous act, and a smart detective will always assume first that everything was done for a reason.
A man who has chosen to end his life doesn't first call his boss to say he'll be late for work; if that call never happened, the fact that Clift made the claim is suspicious. A suicidal person doesn't gas up his car, drive 80 miles, and rent a motel room first.
COMMENT #614 [Permalink]
...
mmiixx
said on 3/14/2005 @ 12:23 pm PT...
Record Growth in American Latest Industry
"Creative Suicide" now spreading (marching even) around the world!
Get a load of this, and from the Los Angeles Times, no less:
The former Ukrainian interior minister, scheduled to meet in just a few hours with prosecutors to give testimony in a high-profile case of political murder, aimed a gun at his chin and fired, sending a bullet ripping through his cheek and out his upper jaw. Then he aimed it at his temple and fired again.
http://rigorousintuition...cy-theory-made-easy.html
http://whatreallyhappened.com/
COMMENT #615 [Permalink]
...
Fred
said on 3/14/2005 @ 12:35 pm PT...
DISSUE, good catch. Damn it. Looks like I pulled my first "Dan Rather".
I just checked my cell phone log, and sure enough, the number I actually dialed is "3847". I'm pissed at myself for making such a stupid mistake. Thank God I documented the "actual" number I dialed or else it may have been a while before anyone else caught it.
Now for the good news. When I posted that info, I emailed "Insider Magazine" about it. The editor responded back with some info he asked me not to repeat. What I can say is that this case is far from over.
Again, sorry about that dissappointing mistake. I've learned my lesson, and you can be certain it will not happen again.
G'night.
COMMENT #616 [Permalink]
...
Cole...
said on 3/14/2005 @ 12:37 pm PT...
Sorry about the last sentence.
It should follow "arm squeezed"--then--some blood would fflow onto his T shirt leaving the streaks and some would have flowed onto his left arm.
Some blood would continue to drain from that vein which has no valve at the upper arm level. thus he had to be propped up.
It would now look like a blood loss suicide.
A healthy adult would not exsanguinate from a small venous cut as described for hours, if ever.
From the looks of the pictures it appears that he was lying at the more upright part of the tub against the tub set (that has been disputed above), but if he layed at the more sloping end of the tub he would have slid down. But I recall seeing a floor plan draw up which shows Lemme's feet at the slop end of the tub? Any help on this?
The neatness of the spacing placement of items on the vanity goes along with the spacing of the 8:10 note--was Lemme that cumpulsive? If so, getting into the tub with his pants on is out of caracter, no?
COMMENT #617 [Permalink]
...
peterpont
said on 3/14/2005 @ 12:40 pm PT...
I ran the Wayne Madsen December 6th 2004 article by another auther and received similiar comments as found in post 611. I feel on this post we are open to many ideas, some expressed by other authors and perhaps not as accurate as we might like. It is up to the posters to take the time to read and question. I am not concerned about "tinhat" accusations.Period.
To post 610 Jeff-Go to goggle. Type in Wayne Madsen-1st response will take you to the Onlinejournal.com (not org,sorry!) December 6th,2004 online article
Thanks Folks. Peter
COMMENT #618 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/14/2005 @ 12:40 pm PT...
Re: Casolara #612
From page 2, Narrative Report by Shannon Floyd dated 7/24/03:
"Small areas of blood appearing to be arterial spurts were present on the exterior side of the bathroom door, which was pushed back to the east wall, and on the east wall adjacent to the bathtub. The location of the arterial spurts was *consistent with the deceased being in a SITTING position when the cuts were made*"
(Asterisks and caps mine for emphasis.)
ALSO, from Mary Ann Lemme's Affidavit - She stated that she been unable to contact Ray (on 6/30).
COMMENT #619 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/14/2005 @ 12:45 pm PT...
Question:
From Shannon Floyd's Narrative Report dated 7/24/03:
From page 2:
Lemme was found upright, sitting position in tub with head slightly slumped down to left side of body.
From page 3:
Rigor mortis present & lividity consistent with position of body
Is her assessment of the lividity being consistent with the body position correct? I wouldn't know the answer to this, but maybe someone out there does.
COMMENT #620 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/14/2005 @ 12:54 pm PT...
The 2 medications found, according to Shannon Floyd's narrative report 7/24/03:
1. Ecotrin - "The Safer Aspirin"
2. Pravachol - Same as Prevastatin - to reduce the risk of heart attack
COMMENT #621 [Permalink]
...
Barbara
said on 3/14/2005 @ 12:56 pm PT...
I've been reading through eveyone's analysis for a few days because I find it interesting. One small point I would like to make is that it is very hard for me to believe that someone from the Florida Inspector General's Office does not carry a cell phone. My kids have cell phones, everyone I know has a cell phone, my parents have cell phones. Using a payphone sounds so.... well 1980's.
COMMENT #622 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/14/2005 @ 1:02 pm PT...
Oops, meant to include this (from same narrative report, page 2 - same page as info in my post 620)
Watch (Bulova) stopped at 12:34 ON JUNE 30th.
From page 3 of same report:
1. Misc. papers & cards documenting meetings and emails --- what happened to these papers & cards? Why was further info not recorded in Floyd's report?
2. Legal pad - Were any sheets missing and if so, did anyone bother to check for imprint of writing on the remaining top sheet?
On pages 2 AND 3, Floyd writes that she found the check-in AND check-out receipts for 6/29 and 6/30 (respectively) which goes conflicts with the front desk person's statement that Lemme had not checked out.
Interesting thought about Dave Sparks, Casolara.
COMMENT #623 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/14/2005 @ 1:15 pm PT...
Dredd #612 - Why do you presume that Lemme wrote the note? And even if he did, if he really was in Valdosta on the 29th (as the receipt indicates without having been disproved), it could have been written under duress at any time between that evening and his time of death.
Further, why do you presume that the police/coroner reports are honest or correct? I mean, on what basis can anyone assert exactly how long Lemme had been dead before the body was found?
As for your contention that the three guys are just three guys, I don't think we can presume that. Valdosta was chosen for a reason. The Valdosta PD has a history of participating in cover ups involving their own staff. To them, FDOT are Jeb's boys and they'd be doing him a favor by letting people off the hook on command. There's no reason to presume that those three men are not related to Lemme's death --- nor to discount the possibility that Michael Davis and "Palmer" might have been in that group.
Re: THE BELT.... doesn't it seem most logical that the belt was used a tourniquet --- around Lemme's neck?! Hence, the bruising visible in the photograph. That alone could have caused his stented heart to stop. Hence, the lack of blood spattering.
Casolaro #613 - GOOD QUESTION!
COMMENT #624 [Permalink]
...
Curiouser
said on 3/14/2005 @ 1:18 pm PT...
Also meant to say re: the belt...
Strangulation was later found in the Jones-Cassatto case after she had been declared a suicide.
That makes it an M.O.
COMMENT #625 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/14/2005 @ 1:20 pm PT...
Re: strangulation
Anybody seen documented evidence that there were marks on BOTH sides of his neck?
COMMENT #626 [Permalink]
...
Snoopy
said on 3/14/2005 @ 1:54 pm PT...
Does anybody have additional information about Mr. Lemme's co-worker Dave (David) Sparks? I am trying to follow-up on a few items being discussed, but need a little detail. A middle initial or spouse's name would be a big help.
Is Mr. Sparks still with the IG's Office? I viewed their current information on the IG website, but there is no complete current staff directory there, only upper management was listed.
COMMENT #627 [Permalink]
...
Kira
said on 3/14/2005 @ 2:02 pm PT...
Holy shit, Snoopy --- I had in my notes that David Sparks interviewed Clint Curtis:
Unrestricted Warfare Documents
"Was interviewed by the OIG on April 2, 2002 by this author and investigator David A. Sparks"
Is this a red flag?
COMMENT #628 [Permalink]
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mmiixx
said on 3/14/2005 @ 2:16 pm PT...
Re: THE BELT.... doesn't it seem most logical that the belt was used a tourniquet --- around Lemme's neck?! Hence, the bruising visible in the photograph. That alone could have caused his stented heart to stop. Hence, the lack of blood spattering.
Imagine you want to "suicide" someone who doesn't want to be "suicided" and the last thing you want is blood all over you and the "scene".So you "armlock" the victim into a bath tub ,bending them forward with their head between their knees then you or your assistant grab the belt as you hold the back of the neck and pull the left arm up and out to extend over the lip of the bath,then you loop the belt over the wrist and hold thereby securing the victim in place without any chance that if they struggle you will not bruise their arm.Now normally "suiciders" would slash their wrist being that the veins etc. are most exposed and "thats how it done" but you have this belt there to restrain the victim so you are left with the "inside elbow" as the only exposed vein !
Why would you need a "tourniquet" to find a vein?
Once the incisions were made you release the arm and push it across the front of the victim and continue to push down on the back of the kneck of the victim until they stop struggling (unconsious) ,if you look at the picture DSCF0014.jpg you will notice massive amounts of blood in the front of the t-shirt over the navel area that IMO shows that the bleeding arm was held there for some period while the body "bleed out"!
Also the victim could be made to hold the blade (during cutting )and forced to place it on the far side of the bath as in blood stains in picture DSCF0013.jgp but say the blade slips off the edge of the bath and falls in to the bottom of the bath ,you would have a victim possibly blacking out from shock,blood loss etc. so you carefully pick up the blade using the hand towel to stop finger prints and place it back on the side of the bath not realizing that you put it on the wrong side in your rush to "finish up".I've read nothing about blood on the shower curtain and the blade is on the outside edge of the tub ,surely not placed there by the right hand of the victim and if placed by the left hand were are the blood strains on the curtain that you would expect .
tourniquet?inside elbow?no blood on curtain?massive ammounts of blood across the front of the body?
The Devil is in the detail.
COMMENT #629 [Permalink]
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Snoopy
said on 3/14/2005 @ 2:24 pm PT...
Regarding my #626,
I found a listing for David A. Sparks at the myflorida.com website. The employee search displayed his phone and email address at the FDOT. Apparently, he's still employed with the IG. So, here's where I am going with this:
About the phone number that was displayed on Mr. Lemme's pager, I established that the number is local to the Panama City/Bay County area. Later, I read a post that someone called the number and reported that a voicemail announcement identified "Dave" as the user of that number.
After checking public records, I established that there are no real estate holdings in Leon County (Tallahassee) for David A. Sparks. However, there are numerous records for real estate-related legal documents in Panama City, Florida (part of Bay County) in the name of David A. Sparks and his spouse. As of now, I cannot confirm the FDOT Spark's spouse's name. So, maybe it's him, maybe not.
If this is the same David A. Sparks in Panama City that works for the FDOT, it is plausible that the number listed on Mr. Lemme's pager at the time of his death was his and that he was trying to reach Mr. Lemme. The "911" tagged on the end of the display is a frequently used code when paging to indicate that there is a need for an urgent response. My guess is that he was aware of Mr. Lemme's disappearance and was trying to help locate his colleague by paging him.
Speculation: Perhaps David Sparks works with the DOT on matters in the coastal area around Panama City and commutes to Tallahassee (80 miles away) as needed?
COMMENT #630 [Permalink]
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Curiouser
said on 3/14/2005 @ 2:51 pm PT...
tourniquet?inside elbow?no blood on curtain?massive ammounts of blood across the front of the body?
The Devil is in the detail.
I am only a layperson, but the evidence looks to me as though Lemme was already dead when the incisions were made on his arm.
Sure, a headlock could have been used to make him pass out, and that may have caused his heart to fail as well. OR the belt could have been used until he was dead and then used on his arm.
Remember - the people who did this were under the impression that all evidence would quickly be disposed of by the Valdosta PD, or at the request of the FTOD... and the widow.
Ask yourself, if the FDOT was uncertain that they could pressure/convince Mary Ann Lemme to not raise holy hell about her husband's suspicious death, would they really have gone ahead with it as they did? I'm not so certain that they would have chosen this particular method, even though the gall required for any of this would have to be unmittigated.
Nonetheless, it's not essential that the belt be the means of strangulation. But it merits consideration in my opinion.
COMMENT #631 [Permalink]
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Cole...
said on 3/14/2005 @ 3:04 pm PT...
Re: Curiouser #623
The belt as a touniquet around the neck-logical?
Nope.
It would have left a thin skin bruising not a fairly large diffuse buise on the right side of his neck.
And it would have bruised like a rope burn all the way around--and even the most amaturish coroner would have picked it up.
Cause of death of Mr. Lemme is not well explained in any of the reports, blood loss is a possibility but it has to be massive--like in quarts and quarts. A lot more blood than seems to be shown in these pictures.
A possible reason for avoiding the veins of the arm or wrist by someone other than Lemme is that they would not want to get arterial bleeding. That might result in their getting covered with blood rather quickly--that would be in bad form for hit men trying to get away 'clean'.
A bit of bad luck and a small arterial banch which circles around the elbow may have been cut --to explain splatter on the door when he was turned and his left arm went over the side of the tub, and the belt tourniquet was removed and dropped.
That would mean that Lemme was still alive at that time.
Perhaps the neck buising was caused by some blunt trauma, enough to cause incapacitation.
What is needed is a forensic pathologist to do an autopsy? But Lemme was cremated, so who benefits from that?
COMMENT #632 [Permalink]
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Cole...
said on 3/14/2005 @ 3:04 pm PT...
Re: Curiouser #623
The belt as a touniquet around the neck-logical?
Nope.
It would have left a thin skin bruising not a fairly large diffuse buise on the right side of his neck.
And it would have bruised like a rope burn all the way around--and even the most amaturish coroner would have picked it up.
Cause of death of Mr. Lemme is not well explained in any of the reports, blood loss is a possibility but it has to be massive--like in quarts and quarts. A lot more blood than seems to be shown in these pictures.
A possible reason for avoiding the veins of the arm or wrist by someone other than Lemme is that they would not want to get arterial bleeding. That might result in their getting covered with blood rather quickly--that would be in bad form for hit men trying to get away 'clean'.
A bit of bad luck and a small arterial banch which circles around the elbow may have been cut --to explain splatter on the door when he was turned and his left arm went over the side of the tub, and the belt tourniquet was removed and dropped.
That would mean that Lemme was still alive at that time.
Perhaps the neck buising was caused by some blunt trauma, enough to cause incapacitation.
What is needed is a forensic pathologist to do an autopsy? But Lemme was cremated, so who benefits from that?
COMMENT #633 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/14/2005 @ 3:06 pm PT...
Re: MMIIXX #628
tourniquet?inside elbow?no blood on curtain?massive ammounts of blood across the front of the body?
====
BUT - according to Floyd's report there was blood spattered on the bathroom door and wall adjacent to tub coinciding with sitting position of body.
None on the curtain seems odd, unless it was pulled out of range.
??? Of course if Lemme had been rendered unconscious yet not dead, there would still be blood circulation, enough to spray.
OK -
He slices his vein & blood spatters on the door and the wall - also on side of tub as well as a puddle under the bathmat.
How did that puddle get there?
**Left arm to inside of tub (near wall) - correct?
**Take off tournequet w/right hand and drop on floor. This is to the RIGHT side - correct?
How did the puddle get on the right side of tub? Why not just simply drop it over - but it looks like the left (bleeding) arm spent time over there - enough to leave a puddle.
Am I reading this right or not?
Confession - I haven't been able to look closely at the photos :plain:
COMMENT #634 [Permalink]
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Kira
said on 3/14/2005 @ 3:21 pm PT...
In re: to my post #627:
David Sparks interviewed Clint Curtis:
Unrestricted Warfare Documents
"Was interviewed by the OIG on April 2, 2002 by this author and investigator David A. Sparks"
At the end of this several page interview conducted by David A. Sparks, someone has written (and highlighted in yellow) these words:
"Lemme murdered over this interview!"