I was born in 1950, remember Ike pretty well, protested Vietnam in college starting in 1968, watched Nixon and Agnew go down, etc., etc., and I've never seen such self-immolation as this bunch of Rethuglicans have brought upon themselves. Nor have I seen any group that deserved it more.

I find myself somewhat melancholy, however, thinking about what this country might be at this point in time were it not for the likes of Nixon, Reagan, Daddy Bush and Pooper Bush. The complete usurpation of the Constitutional Democratic Republic with transformation into corporate neocon fascism has been planned, organized and underway since at least the Reagan era, probably before.

There seems to be an awakening. I hope it is so and not merely my imagination craving it to be so. I regret that the American people didn't awaken 40 years ago, when we really needed it and we could have had nearly a half-century of real progress instead of the tyranny that we are now trying to extract from our government like a mouthful of rotten teeth.

"The coin dealer contributed more than 105,000
to republicans."
Strike coin dealer.
Insert workers comp.

So the trick to raising a lot of money for political campaigns is to simply steal it from a state's retirement funds?

Someday, not long in the future, some major magazines are going to have to devote an entire issue or series of issues to profiling each of these criminals and showing how one tied in to the others. This mafia needs to be shown in full to the American people.

Then we on the Left can say, 'Nah nah, I told you so."

But, sadly, that won't bring back the soldiers who died for Dubya and Dick. It won't bring back the wasted stolen money and it won't bring back the lost opportunities to make America and the world a better place.

ChemBob #1

I feel the same about it. Every major republican player from the Bush Cheney white house, the Senate leader, House leader, and now their supporting cast ... is facing criminal prosecution.

If the people knew half of what they have done the people would raise hell.

Even with the whorish MSM in bed with them they could not pull off the coverup.

The people instinctively know this group is scum from hell ... however ... as they usually do the people give the benefit of the doubt for awhile ... but watch out when that point is passed and the people get pissed off.

The oil magnate and military-industrial complex are at the heart of it and they are making major money now while we all suffer under their plundering (link here).

Atrios has pictures of W congratulating both Tom and Bernadette Noe at a campaign event:

atrios.blogspot.com

Ahhhh.. If only the the brain-washed and self-indulgent masses would wake up and see how much better off we'd all be with this bunch (and the richest 1%) swinging from the gallows for their greed/crimes/disregard for human life.. What a better country, and doubtless, world, this would be.

Though, the "average joe" doesn't think of these crimes as crimes, they are brain-washed into thinking it's "politics".. and -thats- the REALLY sad thing. How did the appolgists put it? "Trying to criminalize Politics"? Nevermind it's a CRIME to commit Perjury, and a CRIME to obstruct Justice... it's "politics" when Republicans do it for outing a National Security Resource, it's "criminal" when Clinton did it to hide the fact that he got a hummer in the Oval Office.. Nice double standard.. Problem is, it's a double standard that permiates our Society.. I just don't get it.. I recon it's all those years of "corperations breaking the law is not the same as you or I breaking the law.. (unless it cuts into the profits of rich people)"..

Swing them all..

I can just imagine what sort of pressure the MSM is under to whitewash these things and not really report them, I mean Rove is nasty enough under normal circumstances, now his and most of the entire group of "dons" (as in Mafia) have their back against the wall, knowing the indictments coming tomorrow cannot be good.

Hey, Savantster, maybe that's why they don't want us to cultivate hemp and create hemp products. It'd be much to easy to mass-produce hanging ropes if we could grow giant fields of hemp.

Interesting, I thought that it was fraud polling that made Ohio the evil state? Now it's $100,000 in laundered money? Or is it both? LOL.

Stick to convincing America on one of those before you complicate it.

As I said, if he's guily and the evidence is found to be substantial, then convict! I think this is as close as liberals will get to justifying their Tom DeLay attack. I say let them have it .

By the way...Media Matters sent me an email today claiming they were "under attack" by Bill O'Reilly and a billionaire colleague LOL....(I wonder where George Soros is when they need him). In any case, I am sharing my response:

I would love to donate to your cause, however, after signing in as "Steveinchicago" and posting many refutations to your "exposes", it seems that a huge portion of those posts got pulled.

Never once did I use profanity, never once did I verbally assault anyone in particular.

I believe in free speech, but I find it hard to believe that Bill O'Reilly would have a hard time debating you when at least 50% of my posts wound up being yanked. A small town gentleman like myself seemed to be too much for your site.

So since MMFA is opposed to free speech and diverse thought, I see this as a useless cause.

Sincerely,
Steve Flesher

Since the general thread here so far has been the crimes committed by Bushco - here's another interesting developement.

We were all very disappointed with the Senate Intelligence Committee report on the lead up to the war...

Well it seems they are still looking at the issue of the false information given to the Senate and Congress. In fact they have discovered more information since the first report. This is information Bushco refused to turn over at that time.

"The Intelligence Committee at the time was trying to determine whether the CIA and other intelligence agencies provided faulty or erroneous intelligence on Iraq to President Bush and other government officials. But the committee deferred the much more politically sensitive issue as to whether the president and the vice president themselves, or other administration officials, misrepresented intelligence information to bolster the case to go to war. An Intelligence Committee spokesperson says the panel is still working on this second phase of the investigation.

Had the withheld information been turned over, according to administration and congressional sources, it likely would have shifted a portion of the blame away from the intelligence agencies to the Bush administration as to who was responsible for the erroneous information being presented to the American public, Congress, and the international community. "

"After the release of the report, Intelligence Committee, Chairman Pat Roberts, R-Kan., and Vice Chairman Jay Rockefeller, D-W.Va., said they doubted that the Senate would have authorized the president to go to war if senators had been given accurate information regarding Iraq's programs on weapons of mass destruction.

"I doubt if the votes would have been there," Roberts said. Rockefeller asserted, "We in Congress would not have authorized that war, in 75 votes, if we knew what we know now."

Much More

Steve F #9

Sorry you were blocked at media matters, but hey - join the crowd.

Several days ago I tried to follow several links to various right wing sites. I had never been to them and had never posted there. I was greeted with a screen which mocked me and said my ISP address had been recorded and they would not let me access their site at all! Not even to view the content.

I don't recall which sites they were, but I did post about at least one of them somewhere here at BB - but with the huge increase in activity here lately I don't recall where.

Anyway - you must know by now that you are welcome here - even if most of us disagree with you.

But then that's the way America is supposed to be - open for discourse and debate, not the current atmosphere of "My way or you are a traitor and deserve to rot in prison the rest of your life with no way out"

Well BLUEBEAR we agree on something . Though I do not think that every person who disagrees with me is a traitor...just so ya know.

:-)

Bluebear2 - You hit the nail on the head, I hope when the indictments come out it opens the door for people to see the real issue of the Administration's phony Niger yellow cake scam/ manipulated intelligence....hey why be so polite - their LYING to the American people.

Hello Steve F, hey I bet Bradblog does not leave out any of your posts, right? He is that kinda guy. Yay.

To bring up an issue that shows up on the RNC site, they claim the recent intercepted letter from Zurkowi (sp?) says Al Qauida and the insurgents are poised to take over Iraq as soon as we are gone...anybody know about the credibility of this "letter". Couldn't our Fearless Liar just make that up too?

re #13 davek: here's a link to a good post about that letter.

Negroponte's Al-Zawahri Letter A Fake

Steve F #12

Thank You

The traitor thing was not personal to you - it was directed at the general atmoshere coming out of the White House. The way dissenters are handled - government people fired or demoteted, the cordoning off of demonstrators far from the focus of their demonstrations, certain provisions of the Terrorist Act etc. etc.

"Stick to convincing America on one of those before you complicate it."

Nice.. so we can only stick on one crime/criminal at a time? I know it's hard for you right-wingers to use the same tired line over and over when it's being used on 10 people at a time, but do you really think people can't understand that more than one crime can happen at a time? wow..

Here's a question for you Steve.. you claim to be a person who wants to make descisions based on fact.. which requires info..

How do you feel about your president refusing to release documents to your Congress so they can investigate potential crimes? He's the most secretive president in history.. How do you feel about that?

Holy Cow!
I've been daily checking the Toledo Blade for months. Got distracted at firedoglake, an excellent place to follow the minute-by-minute rumers/facts of the Fitz Grand Jury.

These assholes will pay for lying to get the US into war. But most important for ENDANGERING NATIONAL SECURITY by outing a major CIA tool for monitoring WMDS. For What?--- Power? Money? Cover-up for their illegal WMD trading?

Thanks. I feel better now.

Winter - thanks, this evidence the letter is a fake would confirm my suspicions but I don't consider it definitive proof, but then how would we ever know for sure?

""Yes, the bad guys did get in. Yes, there were a lot of irregularities. But this is about the process," says Roxanna Shapour, an analyst with the Afghan Reconstruction and Evaluation Unit in Kabul. "This is about people participating in democracy. It doesn't happen overnight. What's important is people experiencing the right to vote.""

Right up your alley, Steve.. from this article.. Seems it's not about "democracy working", but people "experiencing the right to vote".. nevermind it's meaningless if the election there was rigged... right? The "irregularities" can be overlooked, right? who cares who "should have" won, the people got to stand in line and "experience voting!"..

colleenmilitarymom #18 said:

"Got distracted at firedoglake.."

Here's the link for everyone: firedoglake blogspot

Is media matters run by the former republican turned good american citizen? I used to read Kos and make comments every day...read on this blog they took diebold money. made a comment about it..Now I can't even read comments. Some people are very sensitive. Spread the word. There are dirty dems. too.

#1 CHEMBOB- I agree. More need to wake up hopefully real damn soon ! And for #8 I'm Laffin cause if we did bushco would smoke it all........... SAVANTSTER # 6- Bravo- #17- I say charge him with obstruction ;>)

Sav #17

"Nice.. so we can only stick on one crime/criminal at a time? I know it's hard for you right-wingers to use the same tired line over and over when it's being used on 10 people at a time, but do you really think people can't understand that more than one crime can happen at a time? wow.. "

No Sav, that's not what I think. My point was since the election fraud speculation has been so thin-layered, I was merely suggesting adding a few more layers of concrete evidence to it before implying that Bush won because a measly $100,000 (out of MILLIONS of dollars that financed Bush-Cheney) was "allegedly" laundered.

By trying not to create a firestorm with you, I declined earlier to post these few remarks that weren't so kind to Democrats on election day:

1.) Paid Democrat operatives charged with slashing tires of 25 Republican get-out-the-vote vans in Milwaukee on the morning of Election Day.

2.) Misleading telephone calls made by Democrat operatives targeting Republican voters in Ohio with the wrong date for the election and faulty polling place information.

3.) Intimidating and deceiving mailings and telephone calls paid for by the DNC threatening Republican volunteers in Florida with legal action.

4.) Union-coordinated intimidation and violence campaign targeting Republican campaign offices and volunteers resulting in a broken arm for a GOP volunteer in Florida.

5.) Joint task force in Wisconsin found “clear evidence of fraud in the Nov. 2 election in Milwaukee,” including more than 200 felon voters, more than 100 double voters and thousands more ballots cast than voters recorded as having voted in the city.

6.) NAACP National Voter Fund worker in Ohio paid crack cocaine in exchange for a large number of fraudulent voter registration cards in names of Dick Tracy, Mary Poppins and other fictional characters.

7.) Former ACORN worker said there was “a lot of fraud committed” by group in Florida, as ACORN workers submitted thousands of fraudulent registrations in a dozen states across the country, resulting in a statewide investigation of the group in Florida and multiple indictments and convictions of ACORN/Project Vote workers for voter registration fraud in several states.

OKAY before anyone goes balistic on me, and gets angry at me for referring to biased right winged columnists and websites to gather this information, let me assert that I am only using it to show that both sides have been able to formulate "possible fraud" and then recycle it as "fact". I am saying that certain right wingers are just as insane.

I never bring it up though, obviously, because in the end, my choice was declared the winner - thus making me a happy partisan American .

This argument will continue until Bush is way out of office, and as I suggested to you before, perhaps you should get involved by participating election day in 2008.

Bottom Line for me: with all the conspiracies on both sides of the political fences, I still believe America elected George W. Bush. If you disagree SAV then I can let that go and move on because ultimately it doesn't matter now anyway.

When I bring things up like C-Span hearings and presenting the actual ideas from this day forward of the current adminsitration, what I would love to talk about here is where do you honestly think we can go from here? What actions need to be taken to better our world?

I admire a lot of the creative energy on here, there is a lot of articulate comments, but I totally feel that unless I am 100% against George Bush that it just isn't good enough for you. I can say Bush is bad in point A. and point B., but then support him on Point C. and Point D. and it seems to enrage you.

Speaking of which, and I'm waiting to be laughed out of here....but can anyone say one positive thing about the President at all?

Molly - Not sure who you are, or where you read on "this blog" that Kos "took Diebold money," but it certainly wasn't in any article that I know of here. If someone mentioned it in comments, and I didn't notice it, so be it. But I just wanted to correct to say that The BRAD BLOG never reported any such thing.

Chembob, speaking of hemp, this ones for you ...http://www.snirs.com/radio/pix/bushbong.jpg

"before implying that Bush won because a measly $100,000 (out of MILLIONS of dollars that financed Bush-Cheney) was "allegedly" laundered."

oh my friggin gawd.. Are you really that dense? NO ONE was suggesting "Bush won" because of "some laundered money".. lemme say that again.. N.O. O.N.E.. The POINT is, Noe is a criminal (allegedly) who laundered money for the Republican Party, and Bush specifically.. That has -nothing- to do with all the "other" crimes in Ohio.. Notice his stealing $6 million in retirement funds has nothing to do with his laundering? NEITHER has -anything- to do with the election fraud..

No wonder you are having problems.. you can't seem to use reason at all.. not one bit.. Same problem you have been exhibiting all over this blog.. You seem to be making connections that don't exist at all, and flat out fabricating things on occasion. Do you really have that little position that you are trying to pull the flimsiest of Rethug tricks? Wow..

Steve F. asks:

can anyone say one positive thing about the President at all?

Sure. He's a pretty good cyclist, and he does a fine job with a chain saw. There. That's two positive things. And if you give me a little while, I might even be able to think of a third...

Steve #24.

First, any and -all- shenanigans by Dems should be fully prosecuted. FULLY.. get it? I don't think you do.. you still cant get your pea-brain around the -fact- that I (and pretty much everyone here at Brad Blog) do NOT condone "cheating" by ANYONE.. So, you aren't bringing a "firestorm" here with your list.. You'll just draw the statement of "well, if they have the evidence, I hope they got convicted.. period.. we don't need dishonest people in office, or trying to get 'their' people in office.. period.. ever".. K?

So, let's look at your list now..

1) Ok.. charged.. any convictions to go with that? Charges are a dime a dozen.. and YOU are saying "it's irrelavant that DeLay was charged, lets look at the evidence".. so.. any convictions? Or are you going to try and pander to the "The bad guys snuck out of being held accountable", but then change your toon when DeLay walks by saying "obviously he was innocent"? We've showd you "convictions" of people in Ohio, and more charges being filed daily, it seems.. and more convictions may or may not flow..

2) Oh, you mean like all the reports of the Republicans doing the same thing? Calling Dems and telling them the voting date was bumped? Or you mean like the CONVICTIONS for "phone jamming" that went on in DC? Have there been any charged filed for the misdeads of the Dems for this point? If so, any convictions? if not, why not? If they actually did what you suggest, I"m sure it's in violation of some law.. if it's not, it SHOULD be.. and the Dems involved should be tried and convicted (if guilty).. as should the Repubs..

3) Hmm.. sounds suspiciously like "they called us out and were pissed.. we don't like that".. Gimme a break.. threatening leagal action? for what? If it was pure intimidation, then file charges.. if it was based on foul-play by Repubs, then your point is crap..

4) Were any criminal charges filed? have you read any police reports? or is this something from right-wing blogs where some poster said "I read this" or "I heard this"? If -anyone- engaged in violence against a campaign worker, they need to be prosecuted.

. . .

No point in going on .. same old crap.. I support your position that these people should be convicted if they commited any crimes (and go so far as to suggest that maybe we need some new laws to protect citizens). This does NOTHING to distract from Noe stealing $6 mil in retirement funds.. or laundering money and funneling it into the Republican party.. Most of the "crimes" you talk about are "minor" compared to the stealing of millions and large scale election fraud (flipping votes on machines, hacking databases to adjust counts, etc). -all- crimes should be looked into, but some are bigger than others, and have a more direct impact on the overall election. Breaking a campaign worker's arm is not on the same scale as "flipping the votes of 1000s of voters".. one secures an election, one hurts someone's arm.. And, again, before you lose your lunch of have a nose bleed.. I believe BOTH need to be persude and prosecuted.. get it?

"This argument will continue until Bush is way out of office, and as I suggested to you before, perhaps you should get involved by participating election day in 2008."

AND.. herein lies the issue.. You just dn't get it.. we ARE involved in the 2008 election ALREADY.. we're trying to make sure our votes matter.. get it? That's a LOT more imporant than worrying about tires being slashed. Audit trail.. the most important part of it.. THEN, next and very important.. making sure only "living valid voters vote and only vote once".. I agree, we need to make sure there's no hanky-panky on that side as well, but that's peanuts compared to what we're fighting about first..

"If you disagree SAV then I can let that go and move on because ultimately it doesn't matter now anyway."

So, you don't think that if it's "proved" that the election was rigged that Bush should be immediately asked to step down? If "beyond all doubt" it's shown that the election was a total fraud, you don't think he should immediately be removed from office? While I agree that it's not very likely "anything will come of it now", it's very important that we don't let the next election get hijacked.. -even if the last one was accurate-.. get it?

"Speaking of which, and I'm waiting to be laughed out of here....but can anyone say one positive thing about the President at all?"

Nothing comes to mind, sorry.. Billions to big oil, illegal war, SAFTA, cutting money for veterans, destroying envrionmental legislation, threatening to veto a bill if it forces the Government to stop torturing people? Come on.. what -has- he done that's not a total mess? Perhaps if you offer a D or C that isn't silly, we might comment on it. So far, you support the war.. a war that we were lied to to get into (admit that point, would ya?) and a war that has nothing to do with terrorism (admit that point too, would ya?). If your position is simply "we need to shove our foot up the ass of the middle east and disrupt all the Muslims out of principle.. and to take their oil and offer cheap labor".. that's one thing. And, as you can already guess, we all disagree with that premis. So, from what "bush" claimed to get us "in there".. we have a problem with the war.. get it?

Hey WP at #28.. don't forget, he looks like a real Texan in his hat.. Have to give him that too..

re #22 Molly and #25 Brad:

Yes! It was in a comment. Somebody alleged that Daily Kos had taken money from Diebold. Also, if I recall, he/she said that questions about this allegation had been posted on the Daily Kos site and that rather than being answered, they were removed. That's all I remember --- or at least that's the way I remember it --- and if I ever find that comment I will provide a link to it here. Or perhaps the person who wrote the comment will read this thread and point us to it.

As for Savantster: I'm sure you're a real wiz kid and I don't doubt that you're probably a member of Mensa or some other pretentious group of savants, (please don't reply to that, it's just a semantic example for the sake of my point...) but to me you just seem like an idiot. Period. No savant to follow it. Stop crying and go study for your test tomorrow, lest you not pass and have to repeat the 10th grade. The fact that someone's viewpoint comes from an entirely different mindset and atmosphere than yours and is not based on the same set of information is, much like the opinion itself, not a crime, or even an indication of stupidity. However, ASSuming that their statements are born of the same breed as yours and berating them based on that ASSumption, along with the inevitable conclusion that their viewpoint has somehow strayed from your straight and narrow version of things and is therefore OBVIOUSLY wrong, dense, or otherwise is quite a strong indicator that you may suffer from...nah, I'll just leave it at "suffer".

And as for Steve: The "thin" consistency of which you speak regarding allegations of election fraud is based on the information that you have been provided thus far and is, near as I can figure, slightly leaning in a rightwardish direction, which is to be expected. The important thing(s) to remember is/are that A) people are weak-willed, some more so than others, B) some people are also weak-walleted. If you put enough of both those mixers in one person-cocktail, it's not out of the question that the cocktail might turn on its maker, or indeed the principles that [loosely] form its "foundation". That said, please look at the source for every one of your points alleging shady actions from the left (don't get me wrong--in my opinion they've ALL got horns and a tail, to varying degrees, right or left) and where they DO have a determineable (a REAL word? 'Tis now dear friends. 'Tis now) source, apply the lesson of concepts A & B from above, then consider a SUBSTANTIAL portion of the rest to have been plays out of the American Bipolar Political Playbook, that lofty Bible to both right and left. And then, regarding the rest: anyone can throw around accusations and babble about them and demand action based on the claims of ONE(1) (that I'm aware of) individual from an activist group (and maybe I'm just an ass for even questioning the integrity of any alleged "whistleblowers" from ACORN or anywhere else...), but which party currently has a horrible, far flung case of "holyshitwe'reallgettingindicted-itis". not to mention that in most places that the disease has sprung up, it's been accompanied by a number of people from the same infected party who are doing much criticizing and in some cases even playing an active role in investigating, etc. toward the charges. Hardly partisan assassination. Especially with such a seemingly powerful member of their own little club in office in the White House. Not one of the allegations you listed has been followed up on in any way other than to be cited in much the same way as you have. I'm not saying there's nothing there to investigate, but A) then why don't they? and B) if you stand back and look at the right and the left, even if one or two of those points is true, it's still AWEFULLY lopsided. There are allegations and there are indictments...and the the Republicans get the gold star and a cookie this term for indictments...so what was that about substance of allegations being "thin"? (kidding! Kidding...but seriously though...)
...can't we all just get along? %-P

"Stop crying and go study for your test tomorrow, lest you not pass and have to repeat the 10th grade. "

Hmm... interesting.. so my being 36 and a Software Engineer with a BS in Computer Science means nothing? I should go study for the 10th grade? Hmm..

I'll just ignore the rest of your drivle. You could have at least made some kind of explination of what you were getting at, other than just saying I'm judgemental and shouldn't call people with differing opinions "wrong, dense, or otherwise".. yet you seemingly haven't been following the threads where Steve and I have been going around and around about this.. The only time I call someone "dense" or "an idiot" is when they refuse to see facts.. I try to avoid such statements when it's just a matter of opinion.. See, calling Steve a "pea-brain" was based on my having told him many times that I'm not a Democrat and don't condone criminal activity from either side.. Yet, he -still- insists on arguing his points with the tired dogma that "liberals and Democrats are bad people".. That crap won't fly with me... it's not intellectually honest.. get it?

I'd be curious as to what has you come to the conclusion that I'm in the 10th grade and "an idiot. Period. No savant to follow it." ...

I wanna move to O-High-O so I can smoke dope and engage in coingate scandals all the time!

Steve F - I know you "support the war" but I have never heard why. Like to see answers to Savantster's queries in 29. Hey has anyone ever heard a conservative actually say something like, "well, to tell ya the truth, yeah we need the oil, the military bases and its a dog eat dog world and we need to come out on top". All I hear is the PR talking point garbage about spreading freedom, etc. Be honest, why do you really support this war (sorry if I have missed it from an earlier post).

RE "one good thing": the President is in excellent shape, that is also important to me and is the one, the only good thing about him. Come to think of it he has great acting talent too, impersonating the common man who has anybody's interest but his own in mind, with that great fake Texas accent.

Savanster - Good job, but I think Steve F. is getting more attention than he deserves. Granted I haven't seen all his postings, but I've been trying to identify something that stands out in them - I really have - but there just doesn't seem to be anything.

It the usual stuff - incessant diversion, leaving out key facts, silly statements stated as fact (e.g. Cindy Sheehan as Democratic spokesperson), assumption that we are Democrats (I'm not), the always ominous "I'm just trying to be friendly, but you'd better watch out." Nothing new. Maybe a bit more creatively diversionary than most. (What's a troll for anyway.)

We can't even talk about "these are just differing opinions" when we are not even talking about the same thing. If our views of the evidence of what has happened in Ohio, for example, are valid, there has been an immense and systemic crime and we don't have to change the subject. (If they are not valid, it is not because there were some Democratic shenanigans.)

I understand your frustration in confronting someone who doesn't mind being egregiously lied to.

Hmm...yes hmm...I quite agree hmm...it is, in fact -interesting- hmm...very interesting indeed, however unfortunate, that your being 36 and a Computer Super Genius with a PhD in Computer Scientificalistics means -nothing-. I'd get that checked out if I were you. And definitely look into a reimbursement for schooling and consider yourself robbed of ~4 years of your life. I'd also, for the record, feel deeply -offended- and -betrayed- if, once again, I were you.

I'll just ignore the rest of your rampant misspelling and barely-applicable word usage and context/phrasing (ya JUUUUUST eke through on that one...). Give yourself a medal, miracle child - that --WAS-- my point. Period. Yet you seemingly haven't been following the threads where you and I have made comments about this..
...cuz I think yer havin a little trouble keepin up. The only time I call anyone an idiot (period) is when they're too dense to see facts. While I couldn't agree more on the point of universal responsibility, I can't help but wonder how different, ie: more effective your argument might be if you would realize that this person is obviously somewhat new to this type of atmosphere and doesn't come from a background, or predisposed mindset that does a lot of questioning of the status quo...and he will, therefore probably take a bit of baby-stepping time to come around to look back at his whole passionate life and question the whole thing for himself, MUCH LESS to the degree that he would be skeptical of say, every other point of its outline and definition. Which is all to ASSume (quite arrogantly, I might add) that he ever makes that decision at all.
But in the meantime, education is a precious thing and should be fostered and cultivated everywhere, rather than touted like a spoiled kid with a sense of bearing that was purchased for him and a bit of a -self esteem deficit-.. (**WARNING!!---=> The preceeding and following thoughts contain substance known to the state of California to sate curiosity mentioned in final lines of comment #33.
Why 10th grade? Tell you what--let me recant that statement and rephrase it as either that -OR- an overly smug 12th grader who feels a little vindictive in general about having been picked on for a couple of years of underclassmenship, made the honor roll a few times, can make the screen of the COMMODORE 64 in computer science class change colors all by himself, and combines these concepts into a holier-than-thou little tirade any time he feels he's crossed by anyone intellectually inferior to himself. And when he's writing such tirades he uses the same pretentious attempts at grammar and rhetoric that he has elitist wet dreams about or uses to write tortured poetry in a composition book that he carries everywhere, just -hoping- and -praying- with every ounce of his ragged, over-tapped soul that someone will ask him about it. (Maybe even that cheerleader girl who's the culprit for yet a few more mornings of moist awakenings on his part...*giggle*...She's SOOOO -dreamy-!..)

Well, Jeff.. My spelling mistakes have been expressed in a different thread.. I don't bother taking the time to put posts in editors to check spelling, and given my Dysgraphia/Dyslexia, spelling isn't something my brain does well. It's all about patterns for me.. Sorry if that causes you some consternation.. Oh, wait.. was that "barely-applicable word usage and context/phrasing"?

And what are you talking about with my "grammer"? I keep hearing people (well, you and some twit that kept using different names every post) complain, yet my grammer is pretty spot on.. at least, my composition professors suggested I had a decent mastery of the language given my B+ for Comp. 302 (advanced compostition for sciences).. Do I make mistakes on occasion? sure.. are they gross misuses of the language or constructs of it? Um.. no? Not like your SUPER LONG paragraph, anyway.

I guess I'm a bit remiss about "other threads" with you.. I don't directly recall any conversations "with you", Mr. Jeff (or, to be fair, possibly Ms.. I don't know). And no, I don't care to go looking. If you care to bring up any specific points in a decent context in gramatically correct paragraphs so I can follow your thought process, I'll be happy to discuss them.

Your attacks of my age and/or maturity level confuses me. I tend only to attack those that deserve it.. I'm not getting at all what you mean with "he's new to the scene and should be given a break".. Who's new? Steve? new to what scene? The debate scene? the thinking scene? I don't know why I should cut someone some slack when they come here and start lying and inciting.. I guess I'm just confused in general with your posts.. Talk about mangling the language's constructs..

Jeff, when I first started commenting I didn't use paragraphs either. When I looked at what I wrote I wondered how anyone could even read it..I couldn't even do it myself. I got better as time went on. I realized my brain was going so fast my fingers were having a hard time keeping up.

Perhaps you would sound more coherant if you broke your comments into paragraphs. I am skipping over them now as I really have no idea what you are trying to say.

BTW, I never critique a poster's comment, but I do so now because I believe you are trying to make a point and my little brain can't figure out what it is. M4

Lemme start over here...first of all, it wasn't your grammar as far as textbooky-rulesish stuff so much as style. I misspoke there and apologize for that. Secondly, I don't use editors either, but I too am dyslexic. I just happen to be really anal as well, but between that and the ADHD (but like, x 30), you'll catch an error here or there. It also takes me about 3 times as long to type one post, since few are the sentences that I can finish typing before I have no idea what the hell I was saying and sometimes have to go back and read a sentence several times, typing a word or two in between, and sometimes end up having to go back and rewrite the whole damn thing. I think my carpal tunnel check is probably in the mail by now, but c'est la vie or so it goes or some other sigh of resignation...(WOW-I am so far off my original intended topic by now...appropriate given that I have yet to post the smart-assed comment I originally meant to before even reading any of the things that got me off on all this...I'd ask 'where was I?', but if you know, then god help you ) At any rate, I touched more on my point in the second acidic post (in which I was mimicking your post, btw--so don't take that beginning section as my own thoughts nearly so much as sarcasm...) and it is that whole bit about the education and acceptance (which was implied, I believe...(?) ) I will now take this opportunity to apologize, as I had a horrible day (no excuse), and ended up taking it out on you. I should write more often from a more objective, editorial stance I suppose and that would exhaust my supply of venom so's it wouldn't get out like it did here this evening. It is now about 3 hours after my last smug post here and I can't imagine why I would have approach that situation like I did (beyond the inexcusable bad day purging or whatever it was...), so again, I apologize.
"Here--let me be as negative as possible while I berate you for lack of positivity..."
I can only hope that in some fuctup way, it actually made sense at the time, cuz it don't hold shit now fer all the holes (as old grampa used to say). Having the attention span of a kitten on crack kind of clouds such things at times...at any rate, on last time: I apologize and shan't repeat my actions here.
In re to merifour, PARAGRAPHS???!!? You're lucky to get punctuation outta me. And don't be expectin' me to jump on that "coherence" bandwagon any time soon either! You young-uns with your makin sense and trying to be all...sensible and stuff...sheesh. Not my tractor for a coffee mug. Triangular is what it is...(okay, enough of that ;-p)
Oh, and for future reference, I prefer to think of myself as a Mssrstssq. which is an abbreviation for Missusterizzeruzzuzuzzzh, the title of recognition for bravery above and be-yawned the call of the wild on the part of a trained technician of the hand shaking arts in the secret army of the nine pants, Freelance Republique of the Kingdom of Jefflandia, Esq.
But please, it's only proper (and legal in certain precincts outside of Siberia) to address me by my full, official, proper title: Jeff.

Ok, ok---(BTW: be careful, ladies and gentlemen...it would probably require inordinate amounts of psychotropic substances, but it is possible that SOME of post 41 makes sense. To someone. Although, I'm nowhere nearly certain of whom. Yeah...)
I did nothing to really explain WHY THE HELL ALL THE VENOM??? in that last post so I'll try one more frickin time and then my brain is officially fired. No, shut up brain I've had enough. Clean out yer desk and...anyhow, back to reality and this post (its turned from a bad day to a very HYPER one!!! could you tell?), my point in all the stupidity was that very few "wingnuts" or rightish leaners (or whatever you want to call them...) show up here for reasons other than to stir things up and perpetuate the mad circus (
Just some thoughts before my wrists fall apart and I seek chamomile tea in an attempt to kinda hopefully prepare for sleep...not likely, but hey--more readin' time...I'm done for the night...its been real...until next we banter/chat/fight to the death/whatever...adieu (

brad, the toledo blade link doesn't work

Noe Noe Noe Noe I don't smoke it Noe more
I'm tired of waking up on the floor...

And

Ney Ney Ney Ney I got busted today
for turning vote cash into my hay...

Will they ever learn

This is amazing stuff. Noe (it's pronounced in two syllables, like "Joey") wanted to fufill HIS OWN PLEDGE TO BUSH TO RAISE $50,000...yet he did it by laundering money "borrowed" from the coin fund through other people (so as not to violate to the $2,000 per-person limit).

In other words, he advertised his own corruption! If even one of the people he used as a conduit said to a friend in law enforcement, "That wasn't really my money, Noe gave it to me," the jig was up immediately. That's evidently what happened. Mathematically, there had to have been at least 25 people involved, so Noe was trusting 25 separate individuals not to say a word.

His wife is definitely in the middle of things. What did Shakespeare say about "Me thinks (she) doth protest too much."?? The song of Bernadette for months after November, no matter what question a reporter asked her, was "The important thing is for people to understand we had a good election here."

How would she know that people weren't cheating in Cleveland, Columbus, Youngstown, and Warren County? If the whole thing were being directed from on high (at least as high as Blackwell, more likely Rove), and she were just a local election official in Northwest Ohio, she should have had no way of knowing one way or the other. Yet she was always emphatic...WE HAD A GOOD ELECTION!

The Bard was right. When they protest too much, they're lying through their teeth.

What did the president Noe and when did he Noe it?

Bluebear2 quoted:
"I doubt if the votes would have been there," Roberts said. Rockefeller asserted, "We in Congress would not have authorized that war, in 75 votes, if we knew what we know now."

That's it folks. They're saying Bush committed an impeachable offense --- lying to Congress. If his situation endangers their re-election they'll kick Dubya out within a year.

Sometime last summer I read an article in the Denver Post about how some coin dealer connected to Noe had his home in Evergreen robbed. I just tried to find the story but the Denver Post website search function is rather lame. So if someone has Lexus Nexus access, please look for us.

The story mentioned the link to Noe, and then the robbed couple went on to list things like $75,000 worth of wine, coins, etc associated with the robbery. I found it really odd that they wanted the paper to publish all this data about huge amounts of valuable items items they always kept at home, and of course the Noe connection seemed really odd for them to mention to the reporter as well. The whole thing smelled funny. I believe that one of the things mentioned in the story is that some of Noe's missing coins were lost in the mail between coin dealers, and that this guy could have been one of them.

It looks like a good time to be teasing out the links Noe had to everyone, including this rather odd story. Can anyone dig this up for our benefit?

JEFF and SAVANTSTER You two are killing me with laughter....... I'd love to get all of your posts on live streaming video , very entertaining, I haven't laughed so hard in a while. Please keep it up , very enjoyable , especially the psychotic parts ... Oh yea Dubya looks good with a bong too.... http://www.snirs.com/radio/pix/bushbong.jpg

Ahh.. Jeff.. See? Much better.. Now I fully understand what you were getting at.. and now I can (try to) show you where you're mistaken on the case of Steve..

As I pointed out, I only call someone an idiot (well, mostly only.. sometimes I too have a venomous day and get entirely too liberal with my spitting) when they "deserve" it.. The example is, NittanyLion is here from time to time.. -That- poster is a Republican (self-proclaimed.. we're not so sure given his/her ability to think ) but -will- present arguments and stay on topic. That poster uses truths to make a point, but doesn't use "truths" to try and obscure the point (saying the sun is hot when talking about po-go sticks is... well.. it's hard to explain how ignorant it is to bring up in a serious conversation.. it's perfectly ok when you're yucking it up with friends, but "screwing around" like that has no place in a political debate where you're trying to prove a point). Steve is one of "those" Republicans.. the kind we call Rethugs.. or the kind like Limbaugh, Coulter, Hannity, O'Reilly, etc etc.. THOSE kinds of "people" can't be reasoned with.. It's not that they "can't get it", it's that they "don't want to".. You can't force someone to open their minds, period.

As an example.. in a different thread.. Steve decided that since he had no valid position (as far as we could tell) about people in the military.. talking about "they all volunteered", which is a "truth" in a strict context (some people "volunteer" to avoid jail or prison time.. yeah, tough choice there, right?), he decided to denegrate Casey Sheehan and his mother.. That's uncalled for.. That's just an asshole being a prick for no good reason other than it's in his nature.. see? He also, in that same post, called me a spy for bin Laden.. Slanderous.. and if anything negative happens to me from his statement, I can sue him (and likely win).. You can't just go making up lies about someone, especially when they are potentially damaging to their life. Later, he tried to spin it as "uh.. bin Laden is a bad guy, that's all I was saying.. and suicide bombers (not mentioned in the earlier post) are like 3rd graders.. uh.. ". Clearly, he was doing nothing but lying and inciting. That's not someone who "is having a hard time seeing the truth", that's a "piece of shit human being that there's no hope for and is the -exact- problem with the world".

I'm with you.. Being patient is important. Trying to help people see the error of their thinking when they are under the influence of the "wack-jobs" out there like Coulter, Hannity, Limbaugh, etc. etc., is important. That's how change happens.. slowly waking these people up. But, you also have to realize.. There are a lot of people out there that really are bad.. really are so ignorant as to believe all the crap despite the evidence.. their brains just don't seem to work right.. so they come to places like this and try to "spin things" and win supporters.. Only here, we're not that stupid.. Steve can't make a point here about a lot of the things he wants to because we're smarter than the people he's used to dealing with.

Example: Steve said "Interesting, I thought that it was fraud polling that made Ohio the evil state? Now it's $100,000 in laundered money? Or is it both? LOL.

Stick to convincing America on one of those before you complicate it."

I questioned it.. then he said

"My point was since the election fraud speculation has been so thin-layered, I was merely suggesting adding a few more layers of concrete evidence to it before implying that Bush won because a measly $100,000 (out of MILLIONS of dollars that financed Bush-Cheney) was "allegedly" laundered."

But, no one -ever- suggest that Noe's 100 grand had anything to do with him "winning the election".. so where did that come from? It came from him -deliberatly- trying to minimalize all the facts, trying to force a connection to be implied so that if one part falls through, it would "appear" to effect something else. In this case, if Noe is found "not guilty" of laundering money, Steve would then point to his OWN post, his OWN bad logic, and say "well, since Noe isn't guilty, looks like your fraud case is crap".. Uh.. what? they aren't related..

Here's the problem with Steve. Either 1) he just can't figure out that he didn't say most of what he thought he did (and now I see where your defference came from, you do what I do as well on occasoin.. leave out entire sentances cause your fingers are too damn slow to keep up with your brain.. Frustrating, I know..).. or 2) is intentionally trying to "spin" things to make them laughable.. or distract from the "valid points" to try and disrupt the conversation or flow.

Personally, I think it's 2.. He's an accountant.. his JOB is to be maticulous.. and his attitude implies he believes all the crap he spews. He "supports the war", but has never given a reason.. just keeps talking about terrorists and killing trees cause they bother him.. The terrorist link has been "proved" to be a lie, therefore, no reason to be in Iraq.. yet, he STILL supports it by simply dismissing, apparently, the -facts-.. If he was simply making mistakes, then he should have SAID SO.. Like you did.. and he should put MORE EFFORT into -not- making mistakes (again, like you did). However, since it's clear from following his posts over several threads, #2 is actually what's going on. When he said "calling names like a 3rd grader", then said "you're a spy".. then his DEFENSE was "bin Ladden is a bad guy.. and his suicide bombers act like 3rd graders, that's what I meant".. Can you see how that's a patent lie?

So, in a nut shell.. The people here tend to give new people the benifit of the doubt.. At least, it seems we try to.. When you come in with some nonsenseical jibberish but seem to be trying to say something.. as you can see.. we (or I) are willing to wait and hear you out. But, when you come in here with the -exclusive- intent of disrupting things, you'll be shown the door pretty quick.. Steve stuck around for a while.. was being kind of reasonable for a while.. but it gets tiring giving him the -same- corrections over and over. When someone refuses to "learn how to play", they aren't welcome here anymore. Lies and spin and distraction don't belong in debates.. Not in "real" debates about real world problems when you are trying to make real world changes that effect hundreds of millions of lives. Steve didn't want to debate reasonably.. Fine.. but then he decided to be an all around prick.. and now he's gone (finally).

And Hurrah, once again, Savanster.

steve f is absolutely so determined to be partisan that he won't know the shit when it hits him in the face.

Goodbye and good riddance or as Kestrel Bright Eyes likes to say on occasion - "don't let the door hit ya where th' Good Lord split ya!"

Savanster,
It DOES have a lot to do with maturity
Some people get it, some never do

Sometimes it takes a hallucinogen to straiten some folk out

Regarding the impeachability of Bush's having lied to Congress about going to war in Iraq:

Bush's defense has been, "Congress saw the same intelligence reports I saw. They authorized it." As long as the debate is limited to intelligence, it would be easy for Bush to escape impeachment on the grounds that intelligence failures and/or foreign policy mistakes are not "high crimes and misdemeanors" (arguably they should be when innocents die, e.g., vehicular homicide by a drunk).

To convict Bush, or even to file articles of impeachment, it seems to me Congress would have to be convinced the plan to invade Iraq predated all the intelligence gathering Bush was talking about (whatever it was that Congress saw, too). The Downing Street minutes strongly suggest that, by saying the intelligence was cooked (to conform to a decision already made). Other evidence comes from Richard Clarke and Paul O'Neill, who said the Iraq plan was formulated before 9/11, if not necessarily in advance of all the intelligence reports being used as a cover.

The Downing Street minutes are the key. Cribbing a C.I.A. report to make it say what you want is prima facie proof of a high crime/misdemeanor.

RLM, don't forget, Congress did NOT see all the "same intelligence" that Bush saw.. Bush and Cheney BLOCKED the release of some of those documents.. Wonder why..

Following up to my comment #31: Thanks to Brad (and Google) for the faster search engine, I have been looking into the BRAD BLOG history of the allegation that DKos took money from Diebold.

As far as I can tell, the first mention of it on this blog was here.

You can get a full list of the threads on the BRAD BLOG where the phrase "money from Diebold" appears by clicking here.

Jeff, in case you were wondering, we long time bloggers here are aware that Savantster is more coherent than how you come across.

Typos are better than psychos.

Right, Savantser. Thanks for the clarification. From what I read over the weekend, that point will be emphasized by the Democrats going forward. "If
there's nothing to hide, why hide it?"

Answer: So the Libby prosecution doesn't morph into a lie-detector test of the administration's case for going to war.

Kind of makes things more interesting, doesn't it? Will they dare let Libby go to trial and open up Pandora's box? If Libby cops a plea in exchange for a short sentence and reduced fine, how will Bush and Cheney repay him? Will Fitzgerald insist on knowing more about Cheney's activities as part of a plea bargain for Libby? Questions, questions.

Please don't think that everyone from Ohio is a crook or just plain stupid. I live in a blue county in Ohio and voted a very blue ticket. There are those of us in Ohio that feel very misrepresented.

Please don't think that everyone from Ohio is a crook or just plain stupid. I live in a blue county in Ohio and voted a very blue ticket. There are those of us in Ohio that feel very misrepresented.

Rachel, everyone in Ohio isn't crooked or stupid. But the G.O.P. in Ohio must think they are.

I just got an e-mail from Common Cause, which is fighting for election reform in your state. It seems the G.O.P. is fighting back by saying "...these are the same folks who took prayer out of our schools and brought drugs in" (meaning Common Cause) Ad hominen attacks against the messenger, not a response to Common Cause's message, which is "These folks are corrupt and their elections are rigged."

With every passing day since last November, that has become clearer and clearer. The governor pleads guilty to a misdemeanor. The secretary of state defends himself against corruption charges by accusing local officials of corruption. The G.O.P. boss in Northwest Ohio is indicted for laundering political contributions, and remains under investigation for a multi-million dollar coin fraud. Several states refuse to use Diebold's machines. The General Accounting Office finds gross neglect in the use of these machines, debunking the fiction that a wide conspiracy was necessary to rig the 2004 election. A G.O.P. congressman who worked on HAVA is implicated in the Abramoff/DeLay scandals.

Arguing the issue of election reform by invoking school prayer and drugs (dishonestly, at that) can only work with people who are, in fact, crooked or stupid. The question is...are there enough crooks and stupid people to keep the G.O.P. in power? The people best situated to clean Ohio up are Ohioans.

The Bush admin. will never catch up to the Clinton admin. record of investigations, endictments and convictions. Hell, Nixon couldn't even top it.

Keep reaching for something to make yourself feel good about your lame party.

Ohio rules!!!!

The Bush administration manages not to get investigated for lying to everyone about everything because they have each sold his or her soul to the devil.
Clinton did make mistakes, but at least owned up to them.

Program on the emergence of civilization.

"14 species of large animals capable of domesitcation in the history of mankind.
13 from Europe, Asia and northern Africa.
None from the sub-Saharan African continent. "
Favor.
And disfavor.

They point out Africans’ failed attempts to domesticate the elephant and zebra, the latter being an animal they illustrate that had utmost importance for it's applicability in transformation from a hunting/gathering to agrarian-based civilization.

The roots of racism are not of this earth.

Austrailia, aboriginals:::No domesticable animals.

The North American continent had none. Now 99% of that population is gone.

AIDS in Africa.

Organizational Heirarchy
Heirarchical order, from top to bottom:

1. MUCK - perhaps have experienced multiple universal contractions (have seen multiple big bangs), creator of the artificial intelligence humans ignorantly refer to as "god"
2. Perhaps some mid-level alien management
3. Evil/disfavored aliens - runs day-to-day operations here and perhaps elsewhere

Terrestrial management:

4. Chinese/egyptians - this may be separated into the eastern and western worlds
5. Romans - they answer to the egyptians
6. Mafia - the real-world interface that constantly turns over generationally so as to reinforce the widely-held notion of mortality
7. Jews, corporation, women, politician - Evidence exisits to suggest mafia management over all these groups.

Movies foreshadowing catastrophy
1985 James Bond View to a Kill 1989 San Francisco Loma Prieta earthquake.

Many Muslims are being used like the Germans and Japanese of WWII::being used to hurt others and envoke condemnation upon their people.

They can affect the weather and Hurricane Katrina was accomplished for many reasons and involves many interests, as anything this historical is::
1. Take heat off Sheenhan/Iraq, protecting profitable war machine/private war contracts
2. Gentrification. New Orleans median home price of $84k is among the lowest in major American cities, certainly among desirable cities.

Our society gives clues to the system in place. We all have heard the saying "He has more money than god." There is also an episode of the Simpsons where god meets Homer and says "I'm too old and rich for this."

This is the system on earth because this is the system everywhere.
god is evil because of money.

I don't want to suggest the upper eschelons are evil and good is the fringe.

But they have made it abundantly clear that doing business with evil (disfavored) won't help people. They say only good would have the ear, since evil is struggling for survival, and therefore only the favored could help me.

The clues are there which companies are favored and which are disfavored, market domination being one clue, but they conceal it very hard because it is so crucial.

I offer an example of historical proportions:::

People point to Walmart and cry "anti-union".

Unions enable disfavored people to live satisfactorly without addressing their disfavor. This way their family's problems are never resolved. Without the union they would have to accept the heirarchy, their own inferiority.
Unions serve to empower.
Walmart is anti-union because they are good. They try to help people address and resolve their problems.
Media ridicule and lawsuits are creations to reinforce people's belief that Walmart is evil (disfavored).
I believe the coining of the term "Uncle Sam" was a clue alluding to just this.
The middle class is being deceived. They are being misled into the unfavored, and subsequently will have no hope.

Amercia is a country of castoffs, rejects. Italy sent its criminals. Malcontents.
Between the thrones, the klans and kindred, they "decided" who they didn't want and acted, creating discontent and/or starvation.
The u.s. is full of disfavored rejects. It is the reason for the myriad of problems not found in European countries. As far as the Rockafellers and other industrialists of the 19th century go, I suspect these aren't their real names. I suspect they were chosen to go and head this new empire.

Royalty is the right way to organize a society. Dictatorships and monarchies are a reflection of the antient's hierarchical organization.
Positions go to those who have favor with the rulers, as opposed to being elected.
Elections bring a false sense of how the world is. Democracy misleads people.
Which is why the disfavored rejects were sent to the shores of America::To keep them on the wrong path.

Jesus Christ is a religious figure of evil. These seperatist churches formed so they could still capture the rest of the white people, keeping them worshipping the wrong god.
And now they do it to people of color, Latinos and Asians, after centuries of preying upon them.

Since Buddism doesn't recongnize a god, the calls are never heard, and Chinese representation is instead selected by the thrones.
It was set up this way. Perhaps dyanstic thrones had a say, but maybe not.
Budda was the Asian's Jesus Christ::: bad for the people. "They came up at the same time for a reason."

Simpson's foreshadowing::Helloween IV special, Flanders is Satan. "Last one you ever suspect."
"You'll see lots of nuns where you're going:::hell!!!" St. Wigham, Helloween VI, missionary work, destroying cultures.
Over and over, the Simpsons was a source of education and enlightenment, a target of ridicule by the system which wishes to conceal its secrets.

Jews maim the body formed in the image of "god", and inflicted circumsision upon all other white people, as well as the evil that is Jesus Christ.
I think about how Jews (were used to) created homosexuality among Slavics, retribution for the Holocaust.
Then I think of the Catholic Church and its troubles.
What connection is here between Jews and the Catholic church???
And if it is their sinister motives that’s behind the evil that is Jesus Christ are they being used at all?
Perhaps it is them who are pulling strings.

I believe Islam is the one true religion, and those misled christians who attack "god's" most favored people will pay for it dearly one day.