As predicted on these pages one week ago today, the question in the TreasonGate affair has quickly become “What did the President know? And when did he know it?”
The net is abuzz this morning since the confluence of several different reports today. One by Frank Rich in NY Times concerns the 12 hour gap between the time that Attorney General Alberto Gonzales was told to notify the White House about the Plame Leak Investigation at 8:30pm on Sep 12, 2003 — he was to instruct the White House not to destroy anything in regard to the matter — and the time he actually officially informed the White House at 8:00am the next day.
The follow-up to that came this morning from Bob Shieffer on Face the Nation when he asked Gonzales about that matter, and Gonzales admitted that he waited to give “official” notice to the White House the next morning, but…(get ready)…notified Chief of Staff Andrew Card on the night of Sep 12!
In other words, the White House had a full 12 Hours to shred anything they may have felt needed shredding!
Think Progress has an excellent description of the sitch, including transcript from today’s Shieffer grilling and admission by Gonzales. Crooks and Liars has the video natch.
Steven G. Brant covers this as well and notes, to CNN and Wolf Blitzer’s continuing shame, Gonzales appeared on CNN with Blitzer after the FtN appearance but he didn’t bother to follow up on the Andrew Card issue at all.
Editor & Publisher also covers Gonzales, Schieffer and the “12 Hour Gap”.
I would, however, like to point out another issue which I mentioned aloud for the first time on Thom Hartmann’s national radio program on Friday and which seems to now be getting some attention elsewhere. (Hartmann himself posted an article titled “What Did Bush Know, And When Did He Know It?” yesterday which points to yet another damning indication of Dubya’s own personal fingerprints on the Plame leak.)
NY Times’ Richard W. Stevenson nips around the issue I alluded to a bit with Hartmann in an article today headlined — yes — “Who told Bush what in leak case, and when was he told?”.
So, what I’ve been wondering about… If Bush spoke to Rove early on, as it was claimed, to find out if he was the leaker, then Rove either lied — or not — to Bush. Since we now know that Rove was one of the leakers, he needs to be fired immediately if only for lying to Bush about it. If he didn’t lie to Bush — and chose to share the truth with his good friend by letting him know in some way that he leaked — then it means that Bush has been involved in a cover-up of that fact this entire time.
Either way, Rove needs to be dismissed immediately, of course, but more to the point: Watch for George W. Bush to be in deep deep doo doo on this matter in the near future. Unless someone comes up with a clever alibi. And quick!
John Aravosis at AMERICAblog has some supporting evidence via transcripts and questions around this same issue today as well…
There is now much buzz about all of the above all over the net. I’ll leave it to the excellent eagle-eyed BRAD BLOG commenters to include links to additional coverage.
UPDATE: Wow…Even David Gergen asked the question…in precisely those words…during the Stephanopoulos round table this morning on ABC’s This Week! He said he felt this is all going to “come back to the President.” Video clip and transcript now here…
It was a monumental political miscalculation for Bush to not fire Rove the day he was publicly revealed as a leaker. Bush might have weathered the storm, if he had done so. Now it’s too late. I don’t see how the administration can survive.
But then, when Monica’s blue dress surfaced, I thought the same about Bill Clinton.
Huffington Post – What did ANDREW CARD (Bush chief of staff) know, and when did he know it?
partial c&p:
On Face The Nation, Gonzales said the Justice Department contacted him at 8pm and, after responding by saying something to the effect that everyone had gone home for the night, Gonzales asked if it would be okay if he waited until 8am the next day to notify The White House Staff to "preserve all records" etc. Gonzales got permission to do so, but then – again this is Gonzales speaking on Face The Nation – he said he contacted Andrew Card to informally tell him what had happened.
I wish you could have seen Bob Schieffer’s face as he came back from commercial break to his next guest, Senator Joe Biden, who he then took up this issue with. Bob Schieffer said to Joe Biden (I’m paraphrasing here…I’ll post the transcript when it’s available) "You know, everyone in The White House has these BlackBerrys. And you have to wonder what sort of message Andrew Card emailed at 8pm to the other people in The White House…what sort of documents could have been shredded in those 12 hours."
Uni,
Boy are you naive. This non-issue is just something to talk about among computer addicted "progressives" who have no real hobbies. Meanwhile, most of America goes on about their lives, not knowing or caring one iota about the Karl Rove affair. Most have no idea who he is, nor do they care. If the election were held today, GWB would win, hands down.
Ooops – sorry for reposting one of your front-page links Brad. That’s what I get for trying to post on two forums at once!
(Man I suck at multitasking)
*best Emily Latella voice* Nevermind.
Hi, Karla – You only wish…Most of America does know, and most of America does care, and most of America did not vote for GWB..the criminals rule now…but criminals are not smart and usually get caught…the crooked voting machines will be shut down…America wants justice and the rule of law…you also will benefit when these thugs are removed from office…regardless of what you may think you want…
Karla – Always nice to see from you. And I agree, Bush would win again. He owns the voting machines, as he did in ’04 and would win the same phony mandate now as he did then.
That said, not sure what it matters a lick what anybody in America knows about the under-reported matter of the unprecedented fact of the White House blowing the cover of a covert CIA operative (and a NOC at that, the most deep undercover).
If you’re in favor of such an unprecedented and damaging breach of our national security, I’ll leave that to you and your concscience. Or lack thereof. But those of us who are paying attention, have a conscience and give a damn about terrorism and America’s national security recognize that what has occured in this matter is far more serious a crime and cover-up than anything either Bill Clinton or Richard Nixon were able to dream up.
You’re welcome to keep up the apologies, however. The criminals and traitors to your country are very much appreciative of your work.
Mind not to bump your head, however, when you run hard into the dead-end.
Why is it okay for Gonzalez to tell Card unofficially, 12 hours in advance of "officially"????? Well…it’s not okay…the Justice Department is complicit in this. Their response to Gonzalez’ request should have been:
(a) tell the W.H. immediately "officially"
OR
(b) tell the W.H. in the morning "officially" and absolutely no one before then.
They are a slimey bunch of criminals…every last one of them.
Hi, Brad – this is OT, but I am worried so I’m reposting from another thread:
If FEMA are holding another drill on August 6, like they did on 9/11 and in London on July 7, then we need to focus on these people…and act to protect ourselves on August 6 and any other time FEMA is afoot. We can pray there are American patriot moles in FEMA…as you can tell, I don’t trust FEMA!!!!
Let’s put on our "Daily Show" hats, and get out the video of Limbaugh, Hannity, O’Reilly, and all the Republican Noise Machine GOP news operatives, and start replaying old video of them saying that Clinton should be impeached for lying, and contrast it with Bush lying about what he knew about TreasonGate.
BRAD…DON’T WAIT FOR JON STEWART TO DO IT ON MONDAY NIGHT!!!!!!!!!!
And we all shouldn’t hold our breath, for the MSM to do it…
What did George Bush know and when did he know it?
Answers:
1) The whole nine yards.
2) From the get-go.
Notice Karla doesn’t deny any wrong doing by the Bushes or the MSM under reporting.
She just attacks people who comment on the facts of the matter.
That old GOP trick is wearing thin. Give it up Karla.
Rove outing a NOC, thereby outing a network of intelligence gathering being a non-issue? Please.
It’s proof positive that Bush has no real intent of capturing or breaking down terrorists networks.
KKKarla, actually, I saw a poll yesterday that said 53% of Americans are following Rovegate "closely". That’s more than half, Karla.
I haven’t been called naive in so long that it’s a compliment! Thanks!
I have written to both Frank Rich and the executive-editor@nytimes.com urging that the NY Times lean on Judith Miller to tell the grand jury what she knows–for the sake of the country. Perhaps if they get enough mail on this… I urge you all to do the same.
I have a feeling Fitz is kicking ass. Major, major ass. Maybe that’s why the grand jury is taking so long.
He’s hunting for Cheney. MUWWWAAAHHH!!!
Ray McGovern (ex CIA) provided some interesting insight about Fitzgerald (and many other things) during his BradShow interview:
Brad interview with Ray McGovern 6/11/05
BF: If Fitzgerald knew for a fact that it was somebody who leaked this, somebody like Karl Rove, somebody like Dick Cheney, would he actually, what’s your feeling, would he come out and reveal that information, and prosecute?
RM: Well, Brad, it’s a real tough question for me because Fitzgerald grew up in New York City , like I did. He went to Jesuit High School, like I did, and he learned the same things I did. Now, whether a career in the Justice Department and the FBI knocks the sense of ethics and the sense of the need to tell the truth above all other things out of you, I just don’t know. But I really do hope that he’s a tenacious fellow and that he will see that he needs to do the right thing here, and that if necessary, he’s going to just spill the beans despite what his boss, the Deputy Attorney General, tells him to do. Now that may be wishful thinking, but I think it’s a possibility, and I’d like to be hopeful on that.
Just a snippet from this discussion between two very very smart and saavy patriots…
Oh, karla is finally showing her true colors! About time.
Astounding that she calls treason against her country "this non-issue"!
My advice to her is the same advice dick cheney gave to Senator Patrick Leahy in October.
It is encouraging to see the retired intelligence community form a solid front against the treasonous actions of this administration by testifying on behalf of Valerie P. Who better to champion this cause? The squeeze is on and I am anxiously waiting for the bushco bubble to pop.
Brad,
Interesting how you don the white hat, and save the black hat for me. And for what? Telling you the simple truth? That you agree with?
I share no responsiblity for electing Bush. ANd I had this same conversation before the last election, predicting a Bush victory and an increase in the GOP majority in both houses. I wasn’t wrong.
You are trying to make a few bucks with your blog, and that’s fine. But you aren’t being realistic; neither are the naive folks who post here. Like Uni, who claims 53% of Americans are following the Rove story. Fat chance. 10 or 12 percent maybe.
I would doubt if 20 people out of a hundred could tell you what party Rove belongs to.
What world are you living in, Karla?
Not sure what Black Hat/White Hat means, but you called the unprecedented outting of a deeply covert CIA agent risking her life for the national security of this country (working on WMD matters for christsake!) a "non-issue".
Your "proof" is that somehow the fact that most people don’t know about the issue — after it’s been all but ignored by the bulk of the Mainstream Corporate Media — means that it’s unimportant?
And you further bury your head in the sand by disputing the recent polls (forgive me, but I’m too busy to go hunting it down, hopefully someone else will, here’s part of the ABC/WaPo poll showing 47% of Americans believe that Bush is not cooperating) showing your President is in deep shit over this??
That’s your perogative and to your own shame.
As to "making a few bucks" on my blog, I assure you, I’d be making far more bucks (in fact, I’d be making *any*!) if I did not have a blog, Karla.
But thanks for continuing to speak out of your ass.
Oh…and to be clear, I "agreed" with you that Bush would like win because the Republicans still own the voting machines as they did in ’04 and would game it again today as they did back in November.
Understand, Karla?
Waiting for karla to post again, saying how unimportant all this is, & how childish we all are to be so concerned about it.
If it’s such a "non-issue", sweetheart, why are you still here? Why waste your time with us foolish, naive progressives?
Surely you have more important matters to attend to… shredding documents…smearing someone…invading a country, perhaps?
But no, you really should stick around. Maybe you’ll actually learn something.
Karla:
As a professional astroturfer, do you get paid by the word or the post?
Karla,
This blog, where you can post your views and read the views of others, is brought to you courtesy of Brad, and his hard work. Pro Bono. You’ve even been honored by some direct responses from Brad himself, which not everyone gets.
Fair is fair. How’s about making a $$$ contribution to the BradBlog, so Brad can keep on blogging, and keep on giving *all* of us the opportunity to speak our minds? I’ve contributed my $$$. What about you? Without BradBlog, after all, I wouldn’t have been able to read your comments and thus continue my political education.
VG
(Okay, Karla, my numbers weren’t right. According to this Pew poll, 23% are following Rovegate very closely, and 25% fairly closely.
Also, 39% believe Rove should be fired., and 32% believe he is guilty of a serious offense:)
* * * * * * * * *
Pew Research Center July 13-17, 2005. Adults nationwide.
.
"Thinking again about news stories — How closely have you followed reports that White House adviser Karl Rove may have leaked classified information about a CIA agent:
.
Very
Closely Fairly
Closely Not Too
Closely Not At All
Closely Unsure
% % % % %
7/13-17/05 23 25 26 25 1
.
"From what you’ve heard or read, do you think that Karl Rove should resign his position, or don’t you think so?"
.
Should
Resign Don’t
Think So Unsure
% % %
ALL 39 23 38
Republicans 19 39 42
Democrats 55 14 31
Independents 45 20 35
.
"From what you’ve heard or read about Karl Rove’s involvement in this case, do you think that he is guilty of a serious offense or don’t you think so?" Form 2 (N=751 adults, MoE ± 4)
Guilty of
Serious
Offense Don’t
Think So Unsure
% % %
7/13-17/05 32 23 45
——————————————————————————–
Karla I believe you may be interested in hearing what Jim Marcinkowski had to say on the Brad Show Saturday night. He is an ex CIA officer who spoke regarding the outing of Valerie Plame.
I for one would be interested on what your take might be on what Mr Marcinkowski had to say.
The archives will probably be posted by tomorow at https://bradblog.com/BradShow/ and perhaps you could listen to that hour of the show.
Please let us know what you think. I for one am interested in what you might have to say.
8pm (Friday) September 12, 2003
1) Is that normal business hours to be calling with such important information?
2) Is it a formal notification from the Justice Dept. about an investigation?
3) Is it a "tip-off"?
4) Does this not make sense?
I am not sure if this is known or has been asked:
Who at the Justice Department gave Gonzalez permission to wait 12 hours?
Considering that the New York Times devoted zero space to the Plame/Rove story on Saturday, had two stories on Sunday, but zero stories today (Monday), the fact that 48% of Americans are following the case "closely" or "fairly closely" is very impressive.
If the mainstream media were paying the same attention to Rovegate that they did during Watergate, Iran-Contra, and Monicagate, impeachment proceedings would already have begun. Rove would be gone, and a full investigation into the 2000 and 2004 elections would be underway.
Shows you the effect of corporate-controlled media.
Conservatives avoid questions. Case in point:
KARLA: PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION:
IF GEORGE BUSH LIED ABOUT HIS KNOWLEDGE OF TREASONGATE, SHOULD HE BE IMPEACHED?
Let’s wait for an answer. Also, add comments on whether Clinton should’ve been impeached for lying about Monica Lewinsky, and then compare the two.
My prediction: NO ANSWER or DODGED ANSWER or INCOMPLETE ANSWER
#27-This is the question of the hour. Who gave Gonzalez "permission" to wait 12 hrs?
PS-We’re devoting way too much attention to Karla. Just ignore her and she’ll go away.
Posted on another thread, but relevant:
Dems to hold press conference, question whether Gonzales hindered leak inquiry
He knew enough. He’s lied so many times I can’t remember him ever telling the truth.
…and the answer to my #29 comment is………
(drum roll please)
*** NO ANSWER ***
ding ding ding ding ding ding ding
Big Dan at #29
From my expierence, it won’t matter what they answer, they will change it later (or just say what they have to here to not look like a total moron)..
I got into a -very- long series of posts back in 2003 with a guy on a car audio forum about the invading of Iraq. I assured him that there were NO weapons of mass destruction (based on all the info slipping out here-and-there) and that it was -very- likely we were being lied to to get into the war.. he said "if [Shrubman] is lying, then I support impeaching him".. I’ll promise you (since I’ve not been back to that site in a LONG time, I have no idea if this wacko changed his tune or not, but based on our dialogs over the weeks, I’m sure he did -not-) he’s busy making excuses.. still..
Fanatics can’t be reasoned with. They are fanatics -despite- reason. Anyone, and I do mean ANYONE, that doesn’t see how Shrubman is a blatant criminal and working towards the destruction of this country is someone that lives in a fantasy world.
Part of the problem is, we still have people in this country that figure "the U.S. bailed out , we have a -right- to do what we want".. or "we’re the greatest country in the world, everyone else should just accept ‘our rules’" and "we can do what we want, no one can stop us".. Those mentalities, when we are a mere 7% of the world’s population, is going to get us all killed. It’s ignorant, arrogant, self-rightous bullshit like that that -causes- terrorists to attack us.. causes 100s of millions of people around the world to -hate- us.. and billions to "not like us much".
Stupid people will be the leaders of the demise of the habitable planet.. but rest assured, the planet -will- continue on without us. It just makes me sad that such a small population of people are allowed to put so much misery into so many people.. One would think that "the masses" of the "greatest country in the world" would take it upon themselves to FIX things, not help squeeze the life out of the planet as fast as they can..
As an example, we’ve known for over THIRTY YEARS that we were going to run out of oil.. that oil was a resource that WOULD GET USED UP.. but instead of putting ample money into new research to find renewable energy, we burried our heads (as a matter of policy).. seemingly only to allow a few rich folks to get even richer.. sad.. And now we have our government telling private businesses that they can’t sell their oil-interests to China as a matter of "national security".. too damn funny.. a move that will, most likely, piss off the Chinese and may spark the last global war..
Na.. keep it up Karla.. keep supporting people like Bush… that instead of taking care of their OWN COUNTRY and their own PEOPLE, are off galavanting around the globe trying to force their religious and political views down the throats of people that want none of it. Keep supporting one of the BIGGEST CAUSES of terrorism around the planet.. that being the long-running religious war..
For the record, this registered non-partisan, Vietnam Vet, and practicing Catholic is wondering if there is anyone in the Republican Party that has an ounce of integrity. There can be no excuse for outing a CIA operative that resulted in the loss of intelligence related to Weapons of Mass Destruction. If the Republican Party leadership doesn’t come to its senses soon it is not only going to be known as the party of the rich, it will also be known as the party of treason.
Karla must be pretty young, because I can remember when the Watergate thing was first regarded as nothing more than a third-rate burglary, of no importance and interesting to no one. Nixon was the victor in a landslide against McGovern, and his people were every bit as arrogant and as vindictive as Rove & Co. They could not imagine that they were on their way out. But they were. Could Bush be impeached? Stranger things have happened — in my lifetime.
I too asked the same question on the 13th
What did the preznit know and when did he know it