All we have to do is examine the "Gulf of Tonkin" Incidents in August of 1964 to see that this is nothing new. A book out by Admiral James Stocksdale, who was the lone pilot above the Maddox and Turner Joy in the Gulf that fateful night when LBJ got his excuse for bombing North Vietnam.... to know how its done. There were NO PT boats shooting at them, they were shooting at each other. Way to go lbj.

Another book, "Day of Deceit, FDR and Pearl Harbor" is even more chilling.

It's ALL scripted, and having seen my generation wasted in Vietnam, I am horrified to see it happening all over again today.

We had a Jazz Funeral on Jan 20th down here in New Orleans when moron was re-appointed "president" , and we're going to have another one on March 11th next year to "celebrate" this catastrophie beyond even Vietnam should it still be tolerated by the idiots in ameriCIA.

Don't blame me, I voted for McGovern!!!!

I see it like this. (Short version)

Imagine a hypothetical situation where a team of thieves plots an exceptionally violent bank robbery in the downtown financial district of a major city.

The bank tellers are not able to send out an alarm to the police even though banks have numerous hidden silent alarms for foiling robbery. The guards at the bank somehow take much longer to call the police for assistance than they have done on previous occasions.

The police take an extraordinarily long amount of time to show up on the scene, despite an unblemished record of fast response to prior robberies. The cops who do eventually respond are not dispatched from the nearest police station, but from a suburban police force many miles away that travels far below emergency speeds to intercept the robbers.

The police do not act surprised when notified the robbery is underway. The commander of the nearest police station continues working at his desk despite the robbery across the street. The Mayor is holding a photo opportunity at a nearby elementary school, and continues reading to second graders even after his assistant whispers in his ear that bank robbers had just committed the largest mass murder in the city's history.

The Mayor's youngest brother is a director of the company providing security to the bank, and the City's comptroller (in charge of the money) came from a company in charge of remotely accessing the bank's electronics. Evidence from the scene, which could explain some abnormal circumstances, is immediately shipped overseas and destroyed.

The City Council passes new laws immediately after the robbery to crack down on the financial freedoms of the town's citizens, using the pretext that the police had an "intelligence failure”. The Mayor announces that no criminal investigation will occur since this was an act of belligerence and proceeds to interfere with any attempts to investigate the incident.

So Sherlock, who committed the crime?

Sherlock? Why would we bother Sherlock with something like this? This is a job for Mycroft!

... or the Hardy Boys!

Within a few minutes of turning on the TV on the morning of 911, and seeing how the shots of the plane crashing into the tower and the towers collapsing were being repeated over and over again every 10 minutes or so, intersepersed only with the usual media whore suspects yammering away about "Al Quaida, Osama, terrorism, etc.," I thought to myself this has the hallmark of a black flag psy-op/brainwashing exercise.

Everything I've seen since has only served to confirm that my initial suspicions were correct.

Brainwashing America by Dr. Norman Livergood

Make no mistake, there are some real sick puppies at the reigns of power. The evidence for government complicity in the 911 atrocity is very convincing. The goverment's own conspiracy theory doesn't hold up to even amateur cross examination. But why would they do it?

There must be some very serious shit coming down the pike (Peak Oil perhaps) that will mean that authoritarian rule to control rioting masses will be needed in order to avoid total anarchy. There is some twisted logic that supports sacrificing 3,000 for the "benefit" of 300 million. :plain:

Watch as Cheney launches another terrorist attack on US soil within the next 2 months to justify invading Iran.

Will the US media go along with it? Will any say enough of this horseshit?

Has anyone heard anything about 4-Star General Kevin Byrnes, who was recently fired because of an "extramarital affair," but on the Stephanie Miller show this morning it was alleged he was plotting a coup because the US military commanders don't want to go along with Cheney? Is there anything to this?

What shocks me, though nothing should shock me any more, is that even while DSM-gate and Rove-gate show America that this administration was willing to lie about something as serious as war, war in which many sons and daughters of America would be killed and wounded and traumatized, America still refuses to believe that it might have lied about the election of 2004, or the election of 2000, or, most heinously, about 911.

Now the drumbeats of war have started again. There is a talk of America, for a second time, using nuclear weapons. Where is the outrage in America? Where are the cries of "WE WON'T BE FOOLED AGAIN!"?

Where is the shouting chorus of cries from each and every citizen demanding "HOW DARE YOU EVEN CONSIDER COMMITTING THE CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY OF NUCLEAR WAR IN OUR NAME?!"

Thank God for Cindy Sheehan.

Will Byrnes step forward? Someone in this administration needs to find a conscience and soon.
It seems that many in America will not listen until someone like Colin Powell steps forward. Maybe Byrnes could be the one. But it would take someone with almighty courage.

Phil, people just don't know. Most folks get their news from the paper or CNN or (gads) Fox News. Most people have no clue that any of this is happening. That's the evil brilliance of it all. Control the message and keep the people in the dark. And brand anyone who gets close to the truth a conpiracy theorist.

The world knows what's going on in the US, and most Americans think Bush is a bad president, but no one REALLY has a clue just how evil these motherfuckers truly are.

That is why, as Scott Ritter wrote, we are basically doomed, and that it will likely take 10 years or more before we can emerge from this cycle, a tattered ruin of a once-great nation.

Don't expect any help from the Democrats...

Has anyone heard anything about 4-Star General Kevin Byrnes, who was recently fired because of an "extramarital affair," but on the Stephanie Miller show this morning it was alleged he was plotting a coup because the US military commanders don't want to go along with Cheney? Is there anything to this?

General Byrnes:Our Smedley Butler?

SNIP

if reports are correct, one soldier, the head of Fort Monroe’s Training and Doctrine Command, four star general Kevin P. Byrnes, was fired for standing up to the neocons, although the corporate media insists he was dismissed for “sexual misconduct.” Others, however, insist Byrnes was fired for organizing against the neocon warmongers. “According to reporter Greg Szymanski, anonymous military sources said that Brynes was the leader of a faction that was preparing to instigate a coup against the neo-con hawks in an attempt to prevent further global conflict,” write Paul Joseph Watson and Alex Jones. I am reminded of Smedley Darlington Butler, the most decorated marine in U.S. history, who told the Congress in 1933 that a failed coup had been plotted by plutocratic industrialists to overthrow the government of President Franklin D. Roosevelt. Butler was an outspoken critic of war profiteering (see War is a Racket) and what he saw as creeping fascism in the United States.

General Byrnes:Our Smedley Butler?

I linked to Szymanski's analysis of the Gen. Bryne firing in the open thread below. This country is about to explode, folks. Is there NOTHING we can do to stop the runaway train?

I hear you Jim. The MSM drumbeat is hard to beat.
And I fear Ritter is right. This is feeling more and more like a doomed nation.

But I guess, at the same time, each day is one more day that truth has a chance to take root.

I don't claim to know what happened on 911. But I do claim to know that the official story stinks. To me, at least, it stinks. And I claim to know that there is increasing evidence that this administration lies.

I agree with you that nothing is to be hoped for from the mainstream Dems. The Hackett election was the last straw for me. Even in an election where Republicans were starting to notice that things didn't smell right in Cleremont county, the Dems couldn't seem to find enough backbone to raise questions. Some heroes.

I don't mean to spoil the party, but is this gonna turn into a 9/11 blog while Brad is gone? If so, I'll check back in a few days. I've said it before, if the Bush people are invloved in the 9/11 attacks, the evidence has to be there. I don't see it. It's possible that they may just be covering up their incompetence which has been proven time and time again with this administration.

I give Brad nothing but my greatest respects for bringing light to the vote rigging scandals, but when the topics veer off into things without substantial proof, it loses a lot of us.

Just my two cents worth.

Just to let you all know, the MSM spread the lies and disinfo that led up to iraq war. Right now, they have all the details and info they need to wage a serious campaign that could get Bush impeached & incarcerated for those lies. Have they even tried? No.

The MSM won't be the ones to bring 9/11 to light. It originate from a conserted underground movement, which eventually will most likely become more aggressive & enraged by the coverup until it spawns into something of a progressive-revolutionary cause. Depending on their approach & influence, as this movement gains more public acceptance & momemtum, THATS when you will see the media jump in - if only to ensure it is not their heads on the chopping block.

Well, that or the special prosecutor in the Plame case saves us all the energy and indicts Bush.

re Horkus #13 ...

"is this gonna turn into a 9/11 blog while Brad is gone?"

This sounds like a question for the concierge ... and as far as I know, there is no intention on anyone's part to turn it into "a 9/11 blog" ... neither do I [we?] have any intention of ignoring 9/11 and turning it into an "election fraud" blog. We've blogged about all sorts of topics here in the past and as far as I can tell we will continue to do so. But if you want to wait till Brad comes back, you're more than welcome to do so. We have no plans to force anyone to read us.

"if the Bush people are invloved in the 9/11 attacks, the evidence has to be there. I don't see it"

perhaps, for the benefit of those who are trying to teach as well as those who are trying to learn, you could tell us what sort of evidence you would find convincing. There's all sorts of evidence around, and perhaps one of the loyal contributors could point you toward some evidence that you would have less trouble "seeing".

"when the topics veer off into things without substantial proof, it loses a lot of us"

A lot of us? Is that so? You and who else?

Do you suppose "a lot of us" is a significant number compared to the number of people who are seriously interested in the matter? Then perhaps you'd like to explain why the relatively few 9/11-related threads which we have had here in the past have been so active?

I don't mean to be snarky, Horkus. But one friendly challenge often leads to another. Your two cents plus my two cents makes four cents. Anyone got a penny? We could cash it all in for a nickel.

Here'a a penny's worth of question for ya:
Seems like I heard on the radio that Abramoff was indicted today...anyone hear that?

Sorry...that was o.t. But like I said, it was only a penny's worth.

Horkus, I think we all pretty much acknowledge something funky went on with 9-11 and no one is sure exactly what.

But I think Brad Blog should always stay focused on election fraud, personally. It's just this issue seems to be getting some ink now, so we should discuss.

The great news is People for the American Way's lawsuits in Ohio seem to be getting some traction, too.

Horkus #13

Up until a month ago or so I had heard just a little about the 911 theories. My opinion then was that they were from a bunch of Kooks similar to the Chem Cloud Theorists.

Then one day in one of these discussions the subject came up and fellow Brad-head (Forgive me) Kira pointed me to several websites and threads.

Since then my opinion has changed and a lot of it makes sense.

My feeling is that we need to get as much information as possible from all points of view.

There is too much of the official explanation which does not make sense.

I'm still undecided since it takes a huge reduction in faith of this country to think such a thing is possible.

But I find more and more which makes me question the official version.

I hope future mention of 9.11 is not based upon framed into how much it postures the site into a "9/11 blog". I always thought the truth should be carried based on its own weight. If their is some truth or discussion about something that implicates the government you pay your taxes to.. in carrying out terrorist acts.. that indirectly led to a war.. then that should not be glossed over. After all, like the lottery says, "you could be next".

Some people say if it happened then it can be proved - and since they don't see said proof, its "iffy". I have learned that their is really only one thing that can illustrate that the publicly available evidence points to deliberate orchestration of (and cover for) the attacks, and thats :O personal investigation.

Stolen elections is a big thing. Having your own government carry out worldwide terrorist attacks to start wars is something else. One implies a complete loss of our democracy, the other implies we may ourselves may be killed (or forced to kill) in the name of this now dead democracy.

Hi fellow Bradbloggers, I found this video through a post at the Smirkingchimp site. The site is rather trashy, but it is the video everyone should see. It is very compelling and worthwhile to watch, should give even the most skeptical "food for thought". The site is www.enwhore.com/viewmovie.php?mid=797 Horkus, please watch, and consider also the "project for the New American Century" and in it states that they need another "Pearl Harbor" to hasten their evil plans. Also consider the plans to invade Afghanistan, and Iraq BEFORE 9/11. There is a mountain of very compelling evidence out there, one only has to look.

Very interesting reading about Cheney going off the deep end and preparing to nuke Iran at the Lyndon Larouche news service:

http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw

Obviously the Gen. Byrne story ties into this. The clock is ticking. We have only a few more weeks left it seems before a new "terrorist attack" on US soil and then an attack on Iran in Sepetmber. Somebody's gotta bring down these maniacs and soon. Who will it be? Dan Rather? John Kerry? Patrick Fitzgerald? Colin Powell? Or do I hear... nobody? Going once... going twice...

I found these speeches while searching General Byrnes
I haven't had time to read them, but there may be some insight here.

{note to Bluebear from WP: But the links were broken. and they were all run together, which madethe thread impossibly wide. I tried to fix them but I couldn't, so I've taken them out. Sorry about that, Bluebear2. Some you win, some you lose. Please try again.}

{note to others from the same source: Can somebody point Bluebear2 to a good explanation of how to post links? I would do it myself but I am pressed for time and I know several of you can do this for him. Please and thank you.}

The shit is about to hit the fan for Bush and Co..
We may be talking just days before the whole thing comes unglued in the White House.
On a scary note, we need to watch this wargame thing ( ship/ nuclear attack/ us cities) that going to start in a few days, Bush and Co have already proven that the lives of innocents mean little.
The investigation into the Valerie Plame outing is going deeper and is NOT going away.
It will bring them down, they can't stop it (unless a state of emergency is declared!) and THEY know it..
Be careful, stay alert and very soon the truth will be right there for Everyone to see..
peace

Bluebear2 #19

My awakening concerning 9/11 began approx. 8months ago. At first I leaned towards the "Incredibly incompetent" theory. However,as I read and researched it became increasingly more difficult to believe that the Air Force, FAA, FBI, CIA..... several high govt officials... URL material engineers....etc were all First Team All American ShitForBrains. My personnal jury is still out as to what is THE TRUTH. There is a lot of crap floating around that sounds just plain nuts. However, the Gulf of Tonkin Incident was considered factual documented history until only a few years ago. It took over twenty years for that record to be corrected and there are still many citizens who do not believe that elements of the U.S. Govt lied the country into that war. After watching the many strange events of the past 5 years I have decided not to discount anything concerning the neocons and their minions. Those people are dangerously weird units and have already proven themselves willing and capable of global mayhem. I still catch myself thinking, Wow! there must be mind altering chemicals leaking in the basement causing me to consider all this "out there" conspiracy crap. Sadly I have yet to find the leaking can in the basement but I have continued to find information that is credible and terrifying. Thanks to all of you who post links.

Armand #1,

Alas, I also voted for McGovern and contributed to his campaign when I could barely afford it as a member of the USN.

We must continue investigating, asking questions, and looking at new evidence about 911. Not all conspiracy theories will pan out but I suspect this government is about as innocent as OJ. We owe it most to the families and their loved ones who lost someone in NYC. I spoke to someone who was in the Washington DC area of the Pentagon when it happened. What happened to the security films??? How many video cameras do you suspect surround this most important building that's on watch 24/7??? You have never seen one good picture or video and you never will because it wasn't the Bushit jet they said that crashed into the Pentagon. The man I spoke to said "it looked like a missile." 911 ties into most Bushit policies and doctrine you now are subject to in this country related to security and individual rights and freedoms as Americans. We the people must at least scratch the surface of this wake up call of destruction and use the powers our founding fathers gave us to tear down a corrupt government.

The President is only staying in Iraq because someone has forced his hand, not because of any other reason.

The real reason we are in Iraq is for Israel-Pakistan's benefit to take the oil, we have a serious problem with US security if we pull out, before finishing their mission

This mission isn't about anything else but the oil. The real trouble is, Pakistan will hate us no matter what if we pull out or not unless all americans are out of Iraq and the Israelis get out of Palestine!!!!!

Jack Abramoff, dual-citizen has been indicted for wire fraud and possible spying charges.

Jack Abramoff of the Fellowship/AEI, indicted for fraud, possible spying charges

"Local 10 News has learned that the indictment focuses on the sale itself and alleges that Kidan and Abramoff agreed to put up $23 million for the deal in order to get a loan of $60 million from a lending company. But investigators said the money from Kidan and Abramoff never existed and constitutes fraud.

Kidan's attorney in Florida says his client would surrender voluntarily to federal authorities in Fort Lauderdale tomorrow."

Abramoff and his other advisors were there on the boat when the hijackers were. Conceivably they also knew Mohammed Atta well. Because Abramoff has lied to everyone the whole time about his background, its quite a shock.

He also staged a huge fraudulent coverup with Amy Elizabeth Ridernour, and senior members of the Council for National Policy. They defrauded casinos, bribed Tom DeLay and many state legislatures.

Doug E.

Jackie #24 said... "It will bring them down, they can't stop it (unless a state of emergency is declared!) and THEY know it..."

This is what frightens me the most - what will we be able to do if Martial Law is declared?

There are signs of hope everywhere - let's just hope they're brought down before they bring US down...

'Vanity Fair' Rips Media 'Conspiracy' in Covering Up Role in Plame Scandal

NEW YORK In an article in the September issue of Vanity Fair (not yet online), Michael Wolff, in probing the Plame/CIA leak scandal, rips those in the news media-—principally Time magazine and The New York Times--who knew that Karl Rove was one of the leakers but refused to expose what would have been “one of the biggest stories of the Bush years.” Not only that, “they helped cover it up.” You might say, he adds, they “became part of a conspiracy.”

more...

Re: General Kevin Byrnes - not sure how reliable this source is, but this is interesting, to say the least - and it sure sounds like GOP SOP to me!

Reporter suggests Brynes discovered plan to turn nuke exercise into staged terror attack

That article just about covers all of the bases.

For Bluebear2 #19
It was also BradHead linkmeister Kira who's posts got me reading about 9-11. I had my awakening about that quite a while back. Kira remembers my "twilight zone" comments at the time.

Since then, I've read various "9-11" sites. What really got to me, re: the evidence, was something that wasn't mentioned in the article that WP linked: the impossibility of all of those successful cell phone conversations from Flight 93 that was supposed to have crashed in Shanksville PA. This link is not what what I read at the time, but it is the best I can find for now: More Holes In The Official Story - The 911 Cell Phone Calls.

Despite what the guys and gals at Verizon tell me, cell phones are basically worth s**t in challenging situations, such as within my brick condo. I have to go outside to talk, a lot of the time. The various videos and analyses of the improbability of the complete and symmetrical collapse of the Twin Towers were very convincing, but that might take the expertise of a structural engineer to understand completely. Moi, I understand the limitations of cell phones. That's what finally put the nail in.

Sorry if I have ignored other relevant posts. The formatting on this thread seems to be completely messed up, and it's hard to read comments and see the names of those who have posted.

VG

a few scattered comments --- I've been away for quite a while, otherwise all this would have been happening sooner ....

For MEP #25 :

"Those people are dangerously weird units and have already proven themselves willing and capable of global mayhem. I still catch myself thinking, Wow! there must be mind altering chemicals leaking in the basement causing me to consider all this "out there" conspiracy crap. Sadly I have yet to find the leaking can in the basement but I have continued to find information that is credible and terrifying."

Yep. The can is still leaking and the fumes are mind-altering indeed. But the reason you can't find it is this: the can is in the basement of the White House!

For all those who have chipped in on the discussion between Horkus and WP, thanks, and please continue.

I'm sorry that the thread format was so messed up for so long. It was brought to the attention of my inbox hours ago, but I was not available. my regrets.

OT ALERT BEGINS: For some reason I figure I may as well tell you where I was tonight and what I was doing. There's been a weekly series of free outdoor concerts in a lovely little park in the town where I live. Tonight was the final concert of the series, the eighth in all. We managed to catch 6 of the 8, along with our kids [boys, 2 and almost-5], who loved all of them. I am a bit more discriminating myself: I liked most of them. One was awful and another was mediocre in my view. But onward...

Tonight's concert was for me by far the best of the series. It was a 6-piece jazz band [tuba, drums, accordion, trombone, cornet, and clarinet/soprano sax --- all good to very-goodd players, except the clarinet/sax player who was flat-out excellent]. They played mostly standards. Three of the six sang. They did "Sunny SIde Of The Street", "Satin Doll", "Georgia", some Mills Brothers stuff, and like that. Many of the arrangements got a Dixieland treatment. It was a wonderful set.

There were two unexpectedly poignant moments: When they sang "It's A Sin To Tell A Lie" I was trembling.And there's a fairly obvious connection to current events, I thought. But by far the most emotional tune of the night for me was "(Back Home Again In) Indiana". They did it as an instrumental, and every time they came to the part where the words would be "when I think about the moonlight on the Wabash", my eyes filled with tears. Dunno why. It's happening again, even as I type. Still dunno why. I have no special connection to Indiana or the Wabash. I've been in Indiana once in my life, on a stop-over on a bus trip. We sat in the bus from 3 to about 4 in the morning while they put all our luggage on a different bus then they sent our bus on its way. Apparently we were supposed to get on the other bus as well as the luggage but they forgot to tell us that. So everybody on that bus lost track of their luggage for a day or two. And that was enough to make me cry too, but I don't think it was connected to the song. And I'm sorry for the long OT section of this comment but it's really got me going. Anyone who has any theories on why a grown man would cry every time the melody came around to "when I think about the moonlight on the Wabash", I'd love to hear what's on your mind. Talk about wild-ass speculation!!

OT ALERT ENDS

And now ... please carry on!

ausome, glad to see this getting some good coverage!

i wanted to let everyone know that cooperativeresearch.org is trying to raise some desperately needed money right now.. their site is the primary resource for 9/11 information, and it needs to stay around..

if you can give a few dollars please visit www.cooperativeresearch.org

For me and the 9/11 conspiracy theories the problem is that it is easy to quickly run all the way to the extreme end --- drone planes crashed into the towers. So at one end you have the government story that makes no sense, at the other end you have a conspiracy involving hundreds of people (the air traffic controllers, the soldiers at the military base where the planes were exchanged for drones etc. etc.). The truth is very misty. My own guess is that any conspiracy would involve as few people as possible, otherwise somebody somewhere would have talked. Probably only the big guys and a small group of trusted "plumbers".

There is of course always the issue that I find it hard to accept that any government would be so sick as to allow something like 9/11 to occur under any circumstances. This has me always leaning towards the most benign explanation. . .

a humorous and relevant cartoon:

Oliphant

anyone's who's as disturbed by the 'Northwoods' parallels as i am should also try googling the following:

JPALS +Raytheon

and then, after wondering 'but where would they have put the command center for an operation like that?',

WTC7

Some scattered thoughts on the 9/11 subject from someone who has put entirely too much of his life into looking at it with horror:

1) first of all, ditto on the post asking support for the folks at cooperativeresearch.org. Amazing source of info and a great piece of work.

2) it really isn't necessary to figure out what happened and probably isn't possible given that there is a determined effort by professionals to prevent that. However, just as showing that a murder suspect is lying about his alibi is of value, it is enough to show that the government is clearly lying and thus hiding something. If you look for things that just don't fit, you will quickly have a ton of them. Any small town cop would raise a red flag within minutes of looking at the evidence.

3) save speculation for later and focus on the evidence that they weren't able to destroy. Two key things that are available to us are the videos of Bush at the school and the videos of the buildings collapse.

4) the buildings collapse is so obviously NOT what they claim that it is mind blowing. One single piece of steel holding on for a couple of more seconds and the wreckage would have twisted to one side. Thousands of pieces of steel. Three seperate buildings. The emperor is stark naked.

5) the school video shows what the government claims is the first moment Bush and company become aware of the fact that the crap has hit the fan. Much has been made of Bush's reaction but it is much more interesting to contemplate that of chief of staff Card. Put yourself in his place. You are freaking out and you must tell the President and see what his orders are. But the video shows Card calmly walking over, whispering into Bush's ear for approximatel three seconds, and walking away. He did not wait for a reaction. And how much info could be passed in the short time he whispered into the First Ear?

Those two points alone should be enough to bring them down if they were examined in the MSM. The fact that none of the Big Boys has shown the school video is, in itself, damning. Maybe this morning's report that Vanity Fair is charging Time and the NYT of conspiracy with the government is far more true than they know.

Curt Weldon, a Pennsylvania Republican congressman's transcript from the Congressional Record: June 27, 2005

"Atta" boy Curt!

Arrogant negligence left us vulnerable to attack not covert subterfuge. Not even Bush wanted Americans dead. He is still not a bright man and his working hours are an embarrassment.

Re #39 NIce try but you're not cutting any ice.

"Arrogant negligence left us vulnerable to attack not covert subterfuge."

You don't have any proof of that. Many who have studied the evidence regard this claim as highly dubious, and rightly so, in my view.

"Not even Bush wanted Americans dead."

You don't have any proof of that either. Ditto my previous remark. Very dubious indeed.

in response to #3 - this is a job for Scooby Doo!!

Can't you just hear it now; as Bush and Cheney are getting hauled away in cuffs, Cheney grumbling how "we would've gotten away with it, if it wasn't for you meddling kids!!"

#34 - I too worked in structural steel for years. Quality assurance of bridge steel. I observed bridges that had been burned for hours by fuel fires. In one case, an entire tanker truck full of fuel burned directly beneath a bridge on the LIE. A lot of scorching but no deflection of the steel girders.

I also studied just about every known bridge collapse and I've observed and researched failed structural steel frames and I firmly believe that a scale model constructed of concrete and steel would PROVE that the pancake theory is completely bogus.

Steel frame structures just do not collapse like that. There should have been structural columns hundreds of feet long - we are to believe that somehow the connections were strong enough to buckle the verticals, yet weak enough to allow the pancake collapse. This is not possible - one or the other - strong connections = lateral (sideways) buckling; weak connections = standing vertical columns. We saw neither - to me that means it was a controlled (or at least 'assisted') demolition. As Morgan Reynolds has pointed out (among MANY others) - the collapse of the WTC defies logic; unless charges were placed at multiple locations within the towers, there is no rational explanation for the collapse mode.

Bluebear2 #23

Your link was a doozy! I'm so pressed for time today - lots of comments I would like to address, but not enough free time.

I am taking time to put your link up (from #23) --

Bluebear2 link re: Speeches by General Byrnes

Bluebear2 and all who post "un-clickable" links:

Please try to help WP out! He's so pressed for time and it takes time to repair the links.

If you aren't successful using the Community Assistant, please at least use this site:

www.tinyurl.com

We're the educated ones, remember?

Thanks,
Kira

I had seen a controlled demolition several years before 9/11, and when I saw the WTC buildings come down, I immediately recognized it as happening the same way.

My husband is in the structural steel business, and says the official story on the collapses is not credible.

There are some good web sites out there. Be careful, though. Some use trick photography, and make outlandish claims. Michael Ruppert's book, "Crossing the Rubicon", is a good place to start.

I don't know what to make of Alex Jones. I don't quite trust him. Can anyone tell more about him?

I find it easiest to use the CA for creating clickable links-- in fact, I really have no clue about HTML.

Kira and I have posted comments elsewhere that might be useful for those of you who want to make clickable links using CA. It took me a while to figure out how to use it, [after I got over feeling personally miffed at the implication that I wasn't up to snuff ] but now I find it almost "automatic" and very elegant, and I am so happy I mastered this.

Check out info in the open thread in comments 41, 52, 56, and 57.

Also there is info on another thread, here, and here. The latter is a long comment where I was explaining how to make clickable links between comments on different threads, so only part of it is relevant.

Bluebear2 or anyone else, if, after you've tried again and are stumped, post me a message here telling me the problem you're having. I'll check back, and see what I can offer to fix the problem.

I doubt that it is a browser problem, or I hope not anyway, cuz that would probably be beyond my limited expertise.

Good luck!!!

WP #32 OT

You asked for theories about your reaction to Moonlight on the Wabash. Here's what came to mind: first off, music is powerful, and goes in straight past the logical mind. Bushco has pounded us so hard, from so many directions, that it often feels to me like we are under seige. So, it's easy to lose sight of simple pleasures like music and moonlight and rivers, and when they do sneak up on you unawares, whammo!!!

Horkus #13

Have you read the Operation Northwoods Docs.? If you haven't, please do. This wouldn't be the first time (by far) that our country has deceived and/or attacked us.

PS If you google "Operation Northwoods" you can choose from numerous sites to read up on it.

Some have questioned WP's posting of a 9-11 article, worrying that this was going to turn into a 9-11 blog.

I saw WP's post in a different light- it being just as much or more about the failure of the MSCM to report things that are anti-Bushco. This isn't limited to questions about 9-11, but also includes election fraud, and just about anything else in the wide sweep of criminal activities.

Note that the first words of the headline are "Mainstream Paper Questions Story.."

BTW I found the information very useful, and also appreciated the comments by those who know a lot more about structural engineering than I do.

BTW, Kennedy and Johnson rejected Operation Northwoods and sacked senior military.

One of many sources: Extract from “Body of Secrets”
Operation Northwoods: Us Planned Fake Terror Attacks on Citizens
To Create Support for Cuban War

From BODY OF SECRETS, James Bamford, Doubleday, 2001, p.82 and following.
Scanned and edited by NY Transfer News.

Reference: What Really Happened
http://www.whatreallyhap...ened.com/northwoods.html

re #49 good point, Fusion. BTW, Kennedy also sacked senior CIA. BTW does anyone recall how Kennedy's term of office ended? BTW does anyone wonder if these events were somehow connected? BTW I do like James Bamford. Hmmmm.

re #48 thanks, VG. I hope it was clear that I was not offended in the least to see the question asked. I was pressed for time and I get kind of impatient sometimes when people can't "see" things that I can "see" ... but that's what makes me a lousy teacher ... and I hope Horkus didn't feel "attacked" because my comment certainly wasn't intended to be hostile.

re #20, don't worry about that one bit, Sojo. It doesn't matter whether a story deals with 9/11 directly or indirectly or obliquely or not at all, we'll cover it if we can, and otherwise not. There are about a zillion stories every day I wish I could blog about. Maybe I have time for 1 or 2. The same goes for Joseph and David. While I'm in "the chair", I will try to bring you a balanced presentation of the things we're all thinking about ... I don't wanna get into too much of any one thing when there are a zillion things going on at the same time. But thanks for mentioning that and I'm sorry I didn't get back to you on that earlier.

What else? Oh yeah ... I can't pass up a chance to go OT again with VG re #46. You're quite right to say "music is powerful, and goes in straight past the logical mind" ... in fact everything else you said there was true ... also OT but on the same post, I made a mistake in #32 ;-( I quoted a song incorrectly. I hate when that happens, as our friend Paul may have noticed recently.

I mistakenly wrote "think" rather than "dream", twice! The correct phrase is "when I dream about the moonlight on the Wabash" ... My apologies to Ballard McDonald and J.F. Hanley who wrote that song in 1917.

Our friend Paul misquoted a Beatles song ... which was written in 1968 and by John Lennon, by the way. I hate it when people misquote John. Especially people who he would have shredded --- verbally, I mean, and in a matter of seconds. John hated everything Paul claims to stand for. So it's doubly grating to see Paul misquote him.

Paul got two words wrong ... and even though his error was pointed out several days ago, no correction has been posted. So I guess I'll have to do that myself too. The phrase in question runs:

Cry baby cry / make your mother sigh / she's old enough to know better / so cry baby cry

I hope our friend Paul will observe what happens when honest people realize they've made a mistake. And I trust everyone else will have noticed what happens when dishonest people find themselves in the same position.

We're well and truly WAY OFF TOPIC for sure now, but I can't shake the feeling that I should post the whole thing, so here goes:

Cry Baby Cry

from the White Album (1968), credited as "Lennon/McCartney" as always, but written by John.

RIP, JWL [sigh].

Cry baby cry
Make your mother sigh
She's old enough to know better.

The king of Marigold was in the kitchen
Cooking breakfast for the queen
The queen was in the parlour
Playing piano for the children of the king.

Cry baby cry
Make your mother sigh
She's old enough to know better
So cry baby cry.

The king was in the garden
Picking flowers for a friend who came to play
The queen was in the playroom
Painting pictures for the childrens holiday.

Cry baby cry
Make your mother sigh
She's old enough to know better
So cry baby cry.

The duchess of Kircaldy always smiling
And arriving late for tea
The duke was having problems
With a message at the local bird and bee.

Cry baby cry
Make your mother sigh
She's old enough to know better
So cry baby cry.

At twelve o'clock a meeting round the table
For a seance in the dark
With voices out of nowhere
Put on specially by the children for a lark.

Cry baby cry
Make your mother sigh
She's old enough to know better
So cry baby cry cry cry cry baby
Make your mother sigh.

She's old enough to know better
Cry baby cry
cry cry cry
Make your mother sigh
She's old enough to know better
So cry baby cry.

Not wishing to scare anyone one but.....
Leaked US intelligence document warning of terrorist attacks on London and America using fuel tankers.

Full story.
In the meantime, be on the lookout for Iranians driving petrol tankers

What i don't understand is how seemingly no one talk about how current world events relate to extra-terrertrial reality. if extraterrestrials are real, can you imagine how our un-enlightened leaders would opt to deal with these beings? I've seen the nasa video's and think that they are real. You hear bush saying this struggle is for civilization itself all the time, is there more to what he is saying that on face level?

Wow! Dan that's a good question --- or a bunch of good questions, really. My first inclination is to tell you the truth: namely How The Heck Should I Know? ... but I don't think this is what you want to hear.

Instead I will say that one of the writers I trust the most in the whole world, a fellow who I first noticed because he wrote an awesome book about the JFK assassination, has been researching our 'hidden history' ever since he got started on the JFK trail, and he's now convinced that most if not all of what you are saying in #53 is spot-on. I'm agnostic on this issue: I still don't know what to think. But I can recommend the awesome book I referred to, and I can point you to the website of its author.

The book is called "Crossfire: The Plot That Killed Kennedy", by Jim Marrs, and you can see what Jim has been up to lately if you visit his site, www.JimMarrs.com. It's a funky site, with tons of funky graphics, but I think it's worth visiting anyway. It makes you wait for a while, even if you click on "skip movie", before the funky graphic on the home page goes away to be replaced by a funky list of links, so be patient.

Winter:

Its funny you mention Marrs. I am well aware of the book you mentioned. I took a class last year here at my university.. the U of south dakota, entirely devoted to the jfk assisination. we explored Marr's book along with Libra by don delulio and Case Closed by Gerald Posner.

unfortunately, after taking the class, i don't really give much credibility to Jimm Marrs, it doesn't mean i disagree with a lot of what he concludes in other areas like 9-11 or ufo's. but a lot of the time i think he's just a slobbering blabber mouth. i think He means well and God bless him, but Crossfire is full of tons egregious errors and misrepresentations. He doesn't cite any sources, and he writes things in such a way as to not be a blatant lie, but to mislead the reader.

if you want a challenge to the JFK conspiracy theories read Gerald Posner's book Case Closed. He cites his sources and creates a much more factual account. The book is very dynamic and lively, a very good read.

At least, this is the conclusion "they" want me to have.. lol

but, ufo/alien reality and 9-11 cover up is a way different issue.

Dan ... My oh my, what a course!! Did you ever get snowed!!

Seriously, I've been studying this shit for decades ... Posner is a charlatan, a destroyer of straw men, and an expert propagandist. He "quotes" all kinds of sources but they are all bogus. And he misquotes a ton of stuff too, not all the time but whenever it suits his line of "reasoning".

On the other hand, I have no idea where you got the idea that Marrs "doesn't cite any sources". Not meaning to be rude but that's pure bullshit. You're talking about a book with 589 footnotes and an excellent "selected bibliography". And you say "He doesn't cite any sources". Wow!

Don't believe everything they tell you at the U of South Dakota, Dan.

Case Closed might be a very good read ... but it's fiction!

More on this Marrs / Posner / JFK line, for Dan and others who may be interested. I'm paraphrasing here, from memory, but pretty close ...

Posner's Case Closed basically says: "Look, trust me, I know what happened, and all these other guys are full of it ... and this is why ... End of story ... Case Closed!"

Marrs' Crossfire basically says: "Do not trust this book. Do not trust anyone who tells you what to think. Do your own research, and make up your own mind."

One of the above approaches works for me. Can you guess which one? and why?

Dan asked if I wanted "a challenge to the JFK conspiracy theories",

No, sorry, Dan, but I really don't. I've read enough "challenges" to "the JFK conspiracy theories" to last me a lifetime ... several lifetimes, in fact ... and "Case Closed" is just about the worst of them, in a vicious propaganda sort of a way.

But if you want another point of view ... methodically researched ... thouroughly sourced ... dynamic and lively but also original and informative ... check out "Best Evidence" by David S. Lifton. It may be tough to find but it's worth the effort. I have two copies because my first one fell apart after years of service. And no, you can't have either of them. Get your own!

alright, alright!! :satisfied:

cheers brotha!

yeah, marrs seems to say you can't trust anything ever for any reason.... sounds like an insane worldview he lives in. he's telling people not to trust him. why would he do that except to create an underlying level of paranoia in the reader to doubt the ability to know any truth whatsoever. i'd like to be able to trust someone at least some of the time. I think its just weird for an author to say not to trust him. an author should say, i stand by my work you can trust it.

all i know is that after struggling through the long, un-organized, rambling crossfire despite my conspiratorial tendencies, I then read through case closed absolutely spellbound in 2 days, and was sad to come to the end of it. it was an awesome book. the best book i've read in a long time.

peace bro'

dan

#58

Don't confuse "good writing" with good information.

"The pure and simple truth is rarely pure and never simple." ~~~Oscar Wilde

The most responsible survey of the build-up to and aftermath of 9/11 is Paul Thompson's THE TERROR TIMELINE. This book uses mainstream media, from CNN to Reuters, to document what happened. The WHY is left to the reader.